Michelle Shomo Pierce: How a STEM educator uses AI

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (00:05):
so we're here in the virtual aiud studios
with michelle shamo pierce.
She's an educator at mallardcreek stem academy, which is a
charter school in uh in northcarolina yep where in north
carolina?
charlotte, north carolinacharlotte, yeah, um, and

(00:27):
michelle, you and I have crossedpaths where in North Carolina,
charlotte, north Carolina,charlotte, okay, and Michelle,
you and I have crossed paths inmore than one place.
I think it was certainly at theAI show, the AACGSV Summit, and
you're sort of like in thecircuit.
You're one of those sort ofearly adopter educators who has
been modeling what AI literacyactually looks like in the
classroom.
Um, I think you're also thefirst or you're the second

(00:50):
educator that we've had on who'slike in the classroom.
Um, so I'm really excited tohear more about just really
everything, especially just likehow you are like sort of
reacting to all the hype, allthe conversation, all the
excitement, all the all theconcerns.
Um, but maybe you could justhelp kick us off, tell us about,

(01:13):
paint a picture of sort of yourclassroom, sort of your
day-to-day.
I think a lot of listeners whoaren't educators it's been a
long time since they've been inthe classroom and so they may
even forget what it feels liketo sort of like walk into the
building and sort of like, evenlike the smells of that like
fake plastic.
Are they like that fake wood?
Those like small tables I don'tknow if that does the desks
that you have.

Michelle Shomo Pierce (01:34):
Yeah, no, so my classroom is actually a
pretty cool spot.
I wish you could see, but it's.
We kind of create it's like amood room, so we do like we
don't do overhead lighting, wehave like side lighting.
I have a diffuser withessential oils going, uh, led
lights around the board.
Um, sometimes we'll have somekind of like lo-fi music playing
.
So I kind of like to create aspace where the kids come in and

(01:56):
they kind of chill.
Um, I feel like it's a goodintroduction to you know, as we
transition into class.
But, um, but my day is busy.
We're lots of different hats,so you know, I have some time
when I first get in to get lastminute things together, and then
I move into a morning duty.
So I'm in the hallway greetingstudents as they arrive, which I
actually love.
Relationship building is a bigpart of why I think I'm so

(02:20):
successful as a teacher, and sothat is like my first touch
point with the students where Ican greet them with a smile,
greet them by name, see howthey're doing, and then after
that I move into teaching myfirst class.
And so for my classroom it's alittle bit different than a lot
of traditional core teachersthat are teaching the same thing
all day long to just differenthomerooms.

(02:42):
I'm actually teaching adifferent curriculum every
single class, so there's alittle bit of a shift and
transition of my brain and mymaterials to prepare for a
different lesson.
So I teach.
I support sixth, seventh andeighth grade.
Every student has to take myclass every year, which I'm very
thankful.
My administration kind of sawthe value of all students having

(03:06):
a computer science education,and so they were.
We were adopters of that beforeit was a thing.
So North Carolina actually justenacted graduation requirements
for all students to have totake computer science in either
middle school or high school,but my school was already there.
So every student takes my classevery single year, which is

(03:27):
it's a good thing.
But then it's also on mebecause some students don't want
to necessarily be here, so Ihave to kind of work to get
buy-in from them and get themexcited about what we're talking
about.
And so I shift through my threeclasses, have a lunch duty,
then at the end of the day Ihave a dismissal duty.
So just kind of a lot oftransitions, I would say, before

(03:49):
I go home and in his lunch duty.

You're like just making sure the kids
aren't like throwing food ateach other.
Are you sort of like wanderingas?
You're like sitting down atdifferent tables, like I'm
trying to remember.
I know we had a lot of teacherson lunch.

I just can't remember what they did
yeah, yeah, I mean it's kind ofsome teachers walk, some
teachers sit.
For me I think it depends onthe day.
If I've been on my feet a lot,I might sit during lunch duty,
but yeah, just making sure thatthe students are staying in
their seats.
Nobody's doing anything likeyou said, throwing food or
anything else.
But you know, it's kind of it'snot too demanding, put it that

(04:23):
way.

What, um, what is it like these days with?
You know, I think I I was justtalking to a friend of mine
about um, like thank God that wemanaged to like eke our way out
of high school before socialmedia had really blown up.
I mean, I had a Facebookaccount, but I had like one of
the first Facebook accounts andit was like my senior year or I
guess like late junior year.
Yeah, like, I mean, what arethe types of things that just

(04:53):
you know good or bad, that justcome up with technology?
Like are kids just like onTikTok all day during lunch?

Well, they're not.
Our students are not allowed touse their phones during the
school day at all, and actuallyNorth Carolina just enacted a
law, for students are notallowed to use their devices
during the instructional day atall unless specified by the
teacher.
So we do our very best to makesure that students have their
devices put away.

(05:20):
They do get creative and findways sometimes, but for the most
part you know we do a good jobof that and the students do a
good job of being responsible.
But you know students are verysavvy, so you know now they're
using Google Docs the sharedGoogle Docs to chat with each
other during the day, like theyfind ways to be creative.

(05:41):
But we do have issues where it'skind of like social media and
chat groups cause drama thatthen trickles into schools.
I think that that's somethingpretty new over the past few
years, and so our school has hadto adjust our behavior, our
handbook, our student handbook,to address those concerns.
So now if there is drama, evenif it happens at home but it

(06:02):
comes into the building, therecan be consequences.
So I think just trying to keepup with the changing times and,
you know, adjust as necessaryhas been really important.

Yeah, I mean so much, so much drama,
right, like it's uh, I it, it.
It feels like a privilege to beable to actually, like you know
, I would go home from schooland that was it.
There wasn't, there wasn't likesort of this constant state of
seeing what my friends wereactually doing, like FOMO just
feels different when you can'tactually see all the fun that
your friends are up to withoutyou.

I do is I teach a digital citizenship
curriculum.
I use common sense education'sfree curriculum, and so we talk
about those types of things.
We're actually running throughscenarios of okay, so you know,
there's this girl, susie, andher and her friends were
supposed to go see this newmovie, but then Susie got in

(06:57):
trouble at the last minute andher friends go to the movies
without her.
Like, how do we feel about that?
Would you have gone?
Would you have stayed?
And then Susie's saying theirsocial media post about how much
fun they're having.
You know, should you be posting, should you tag Susie and say,
susie, we wish you were here?
So those are the types ofconversations that I'm having
with my students.
We do this every single year.
We go through there's roughlylike six lessons per grade level

(07:19):
, and so we go through and talkabout those types of things so
that you know we're having theconversations to hopefully give
them the tools that when they'rein these real life situations,
they're like oh yeah, we talkedabout this.
Ok, I need to work onde-escalating, you know, and I
tell them, like the world is notgoing to end if you put your
phone down and walk away fromthe group chat for an hour or
you step away from social mediaLike it's OK.

Yeah, what are you supposed to do if your
friend gets in trouble?
I guess I think I would stillgo to the movie, especially if
they deserved it.
I mean, if it was, if it was,uh, maybe an unjust grounding, I
might, maybe, in solidarity,you have to skip the movie, but
yeah do you have?
I mean, like, do you giveadvice to that level, or is it
more about having the studentssort of giving the students

(08:07):
agency to just like think aboutwhat they would do, as opposed
to telling them what they'resupposed to?

do critically think, but also about
being able to hear somebodyelse's perspective.
And so you know maybe somebodyelse in the class looked at it a
different way that you hadn'tconsidered.
And so you know we talk abouthow even adults you know

(08:35):
especially with our politicalclimate being as crazy as it is
how adults do not always do agood job of listening to other
perspectives and consideringpeople's viewpoints other than
their own.
And so you know I talk to themabout like that's what, that's
what we're trying to do.
So it's like computer scienceis the class, but it's really
more the vehicle of which I'mlike trying to impart a whole
lot of skills on my students,and so we're just using computer

(08:57):
science and digital citizenshipto do so.
But yeah, I'm definitely tryingto get them critically thinking.
We do a lot with growth,mindset, perseverance, how to
keep going when things get alittle tough.
You know we call this themicrowave generation, because
they want everything instant andfast.
So you know well what happensif it doesn't work the first
time, because it's not going toalways work the first time, just
like, you know, my tech heredidn't work the first time.

(09:19):
So trying to just model thatand walk through it with them to
let them know like it's OK soit's.

You know, it's a pretty cool opportunity
that I have not only to teachthe content but also to teach
those 21st century skills thatthey really need to help them in
life.
It's a lot on your shouldersbecause computer science is
that's hard enough to have theresponsibility to teach kids CS
and then also taking on digitalcitizenship.
And this was all before AI.
And then now this thing,ChatWall I guess it's really GPT
3.5.

(09:57):
It was November 30, 2022, itgets released.
I'm just so curious.
What was your first interactionwith?
Whether, with language modelsspecifically, you probably were
tracking ai before as a computerscience person, but I'm like
just so curious.
Like, did you?
Were you the first?
Like, did you use it yourselffor the first time?

(10:18):
Did you like catch a studentcheating with it or cheating?

yeah, no, I think it was definitely me
using it first.
But I will tell you, like I amnot afraid to admit, I was, like
you know, of the mindset like Iam not getting on this AI train
, Like I literally like thereare not many things that I like
will say I am not going to do.
And AI was one that I said I amnot going to do this because,
to your point, like I'm doing somany things that I just felt

(10:45):
like I didn't have the bandwidthto like learn about, not learn
something new, because I'mconstantly learning new things
but something on such a largescale and you know it was very
kind of you know, I gotvolunteered to be on this panel,
I got volunteered to go to thisconference and then I was like,
okay, this AI thing ishappening.
I got asked to present to thisconference and then I was like,

(11:07):
okay, this AI thing is happening.
I got asked to present Emphasisasked me to present on AI and I
was like, okay, like clearlythe signs are all pointing to
the fact that this is coming andI need to get there.
So from then I kind of shiftedmy mindset and started learning,
and so I did start tryingthings on my own, and it's still
a journey, right, Like even now.

(11:27):
There are so many things thatI'm just learning that, like you
know, chat, GPT, for example,can do to make my life easier,
and so that's really been it forme is like because I don't want
to be one of those educatorsthat gets stuck and it's like no
, you know, we're doing thingsthe way we've always done things
.
Like that, that model doesn'twork and it's not sustainable.
So I'm trying to actively learnand implement these things into

(11:50):
my own lives and then so I cantell other people about them as
well.

Yeah, and as someone sort of the computer
science space, you know, I talka lot about like the, the
completely appropriateskepticism that people had,
because, it's like you know, weheard about chat gbt and I was
also.
It took me a while I I didn'treally use it until like really
january, um of 23, which isn'tthat long, but it was like for

(12:20):
someone who's running anon-profit called the ai
education project.
I think that surprises people,but you know, like anybody who
was sort of in the tech world,we've been hearing all about the
metaverse, we've been hearingall about blockchain and crypto
and NFTs, and so I was just like, okay, ready for this to be
another, just total, overhyped,gimmick technology, total

(12:44):
overhyped, yeah, like gimmicktechnology, um, and I'm trying
to think, for me it was my, myhusband was, and my husband was
like kind of always a littleskeptical.
I think he.
I think he like wasrespectfully like, oh yeah, the
ai education project, um.
But then he was like youactually need to come and see
this.
And he was actually writingblog posts for his company using
gbt 3.5, and he was actuallywriting blog posts for his

(13:04):
company using GBT 3.5.
And he was like this is kind ofgood.
He's like this is kind ofsurprisingly good.
Were your students a step aheadof you, would you say?
I'm just kind of curious wasthere like a period where your
students were actually using itbefore you were, or did it take
a little longer?
For did they kind of like, didit take a little longer for it

(13:26):
to kind of like hit thebloodstream?

yeah, I think it took a little bit
longer to hit the bloodstreamand we actually um.
So you know, one of the thingsthat can be frustrating, I think
, about education is that it canbe slow adopters and slow to
change um, and so, even you know, we're learning a lot now, like
I had had to go to an actualstate-sponsored AI workshop

(13:51):
conference last year.
So our school is, like now,working on adopting and creating
some AI policies for ourstudents, because we don't have
anything right now, and so youknow I'm the students aren't
necessarily using it in class ortalking about using it, but we
know they're using it right, andso and that's kind of the

(14:12):
message that I've tried to putout there for educators, because
some of the presenting that Ido is actually specifically
towards educators it's, you know, this is not one of those
things that we can just say, oh,we're just going to block it.
You know, some districts havedone that where they've just
blocked it and it's like I don'tknow that that's the most
responsible or realisticapproach because the students
are using it, and so you know,one of the things that I try to

(14:35):
do is to kind of remove the veila little bit, because when we
talk about AI, people thinkabout LLMs, but it's like it's
so much simpler than that.
And so the way I approach itwith my teacher presentations
and also with my students is wetalk about like the basic stuff,
right, when you're using yourAlexa, like that's AI, you know.

(14:56):
And so I think when we kind ofdemystify it a little bit, so my
eighth graders we actually do aartificial intelligence
curriculum so they get to seehow recommender systems work,
and we do a really fun activitywhere they actually get to be a
recommender system and predictwhether or not somebody would
like a particular TV show sojust kind of breaking it down to

(15:18):
those simple levels to explainto people what AI actually is, I
think is a little.
It's a little bit.
It's helpful because when youstart talking about LLMs and all
of that, like I feel likepeople get a little scared or a
little overwhelmed.
But it's like AI is simple,like you're already using it.
These are the ways that you'reusing it.
It's a tool and so how can weteach students how to use the

(15:40):
tool responsibly?
I think that's the mostimportant thing is not trying to
block it or ban it, butteaching them how to use it
responsibly, because it's just,you know, it's a change in, it's
just a changing tool.
Just like, you know, before wehad Chromebooks.
You know, then Chromebooks getintroduced and it's like it's a
tool, but we have to teach themhow to use it responsibly.
And I think AI is the samething, because I've seen

(16:02):
personally how it's benefited me, especially with a lot of like
administrative tasks.
I have two children and we'reall in different school
districts.
So every year at the beginningof the school year I have to
take everybody's schoolcalendars, which are PDFs, and I
have to manually enter theminto our Google Calendar so that
you know, everybody knows wherethey're supposed to be when.

(16:24):
Google Calendar, so that youknow everybody knows where
they're supposed to be when.
And this year, you know, afriend of mine was like I'm
pretty sure ChatGPT can do that.
And so I went and I prompted it.
I said, chat, I have these PDFsof these school calendars that
I need to import into my GoogleCalendar.
It literally had me upload thePDF.
It was able to pull all of thedates, put it into the right

(16:45):
format.
I was able to save it to mycomputer and then upload it to
my Google calendar.
So that's a task that wouldhave taken me literally probably
an hour, an hour and a half todo, and I was able to do it in
minutes.
So, like to me, that is such asuccess story and that is like
that's why we need to learn whatit's capable of instead of just
being scared.

Dang didn't .
I didn't realize I could dothat.
It's in the like the uh, yeah,the ics format or something.
Yeah, what calendar can read?
Um, yeah, that's brilliant.
That's kind of it's.
I think there's thisinteresting gap between sort of

(17:27):
playing around with the toolsand kind of like oh yeah, this
is cool, I can write poems, andthen spending a little bit more
time on that learning journeyuntil you get to the slightly
more complicated but reallypowerful use cases.
Are there any examples of otherteachers, who aren't
necessarily power users, thathave surfaced that you're just

(17:47):
like, oh, I like like, that'sjust someone who kind of figured
something out for themselvesthat maybe that you wouldn't
have necessarily expected.

I'm trying to think, you know we
don't.
We haven't really, in myparticular building, there
hasn't been a lot ofconversation about AI.
I think that I've beenfortunate one because I'm asking
to go to these differentworkshops because I want to
increase my own personalknowledge, so I've been able to
hear from other teachers aboutthings that they're doing using

(18:19):
AI different.
You know websites, but you know, sometimes it can get
overwhelming, and I think thatis one of the concerns with
education, right?
Is there's so many tools,there's so many products, and so
sometimes, as teachers, like,we shut down because it's like
another tool, another product,it's, it's just going to be
something else for me to learn.
And so, again, trying to shiftthe mindset of like, yes,

(18:41):
initially it is something foryou to learn, but on the back
end, it's going to save you alot of time and trouble.
So we've talked about, we havetalked about like, even simple
stuff, like using LLMs for, like, parent communication is like a
big one, right, like runningthings through and like, okay,
please make this a little lesssnarky, or, you know, take my

(19:03):
upset tone out of this message.
So those types of things aredefinitely creating, you know,
lesson plans are always, youknow pretty straightforward or
presentations.
Those are probably the basicways.
I don't know that.
I've heard anything like super,like extreme that any teachers
in the building are using, butit's more kind of the simple

(19:24):
things as people are starting toget on board and understand the
benefits of using AI help bringschools onto the learning

(19:49):
journey by seeding them withfolks like you, educators, who
are not necessarily.

I mean, I don't know if you would call
yourself an AI expert or not.
I don't think of myself as anAI expert, but I think you're
someone who's a sort of informeduser who is, like you know, far
enough along the learningjourney to know bring others
along with you, um, and but what?
What I'm hearing from you isthat it's there just isn't the

(20:12):
time or like headspace forpeople to really lean in, or
maybe even a little bit ofhesitancy, like and you're
really busy.
Your job isn't to just go andtrain your, your peers, to use
AI.
What do you think is standingin the way of like?
I mean, have you hadconversations with your peers
about AI?
Are they like against itbecause of cheating, or are they

(20:35):
just sort of not curious, likewhat's?
What do you think is standingin the way between you and sort
of like bringing sort of maybelike half of your school to sort
of where you are, which is likereally curious and
experimenting?
You know, experimenting withthe tools, trying to figure out
how they could use them?

Yeah, I mean, I think like sometimes,
like being the computer scienceperson, like they think that
like all that stuff just belongsto me, like even computer
science, right.
So there are benefits tointegrating computer science
even into other core subjects.
But a lot of people I thinkthat they think that there's

(21:10):
like such an expertise requiredto do these things that they're
not capable of it, which ishilarious.
I mean, I do not have acomputer science background at
all, actually, yeah, my firstdegree was in biology and then I
was an elementary educationteacher for years, before taking
some time off to raise my kids,and so I came back to and I was

(21:33):
doing some substitute teachingand I ended up in the middle
school and I was like, oh, Ikind of like the schedule over
here, and so at the time theonly position that was available
was computer science.
So first I said, well, I'll sub, you know, in the class until
you find somebody.
And then I said, well, why not?
Why won't I just take the jobfull time?
My dad is actually a computerscientist by trade, which is

(21:53):
pretty funny, and my sonactually studies computer
science.
He's out of trade high school.
But yeah, I didn't have, Ididn't have the background
knowledge.
I don't even think I tookcomputer science classes in
college, so but I just kind oftrusted my ability to be able to
learn new things right, and sothose first couple of years was
me learning right with mystudents.

(22:13):
So those the first couple ofyears, like every grade level
did the same thing, and so Iwould make sure that I kind of
had mastered that one curriculumand then the next year I would
introduce a new one and I'dlearn that with my students and
then I got to a point where Ifelt very pretty comfortable.
So I think that a lot of it isthat like teachers is feeling

(22:34):
like it's outside of theircomfort zone or it doesn't kind
of fit in with what they're,what they're doing.
And as a computer scienceteacher, being the only one here
at my school, it's definitely asilo right.
So I'm the only computerscience teacher and largely
nobody knows what I do.
You know, and so you know myadministration, like they'll see

(22:57):
glimpses of things.
Like you know presentationsthat I'm doing.
You know different placesThey'll see it on, like LinkedIn
, or you know I have a TikTokchannel where I'll post videos
and but it's like it's stillvery like, like that's your
thing.
You know what I mean.
Like ELA, math science, peopleare like, ok, I could figure it

(23:18):
out.
But everybody feels likecomputer science is such a
technical thing that there's noway that they could do it or
they could get it.
And so I think that that'slargely the barrier, is people
having the understanding.
So I'm part of the ComputerScience Teachers Association,
also known as CSTA, and we liketo say that every teacher is a
computer science teacher.
Right, but it's just gettingthat buy-in, and I think that is

(23:41):
amplified more with AI.
They feel like it's such atechnical thing that they don't
understand, that they can't do,and so it would just be needing
to like show and model.
But again, I think sometimes myadministration doesn't know all
the things that I'm doing withAI, so it's hard to like ask me

(24:01):
to do things because they don'tknow that I'm capable of them.
I guess is the best way to sayit.

Like you know, people are flying around
the country to go and present asan expert at these like huge
conferences, and your schoolmaybe doesn't even realize what
they have, you know, right intheir building, and I suspect
that might be the case in a lotof schools.
Right, there's like that oneteacher that you know the
administration just doesn'trealize could be like an amazing

(24:29):
, you know, mentor, yeah, butyou can't sort of force.
I mean, I think this is whatyou mentioned, this thing about
ed tech, which what I'm hearingis like there's just a little
bit of heartburn from so manytechnologies that have been sort
of like thrown into schools.
For me it was the smart boardsand I still remember my spanish
teacher, like you know, pushingthrough it.

(24:49):
She was so frustrated and shewould actually complain.
She was like I'm supposed touse a smart board, like, okay,
class, let's use a stupid smartboard.
I could be using the chalkboard, um, and I guess your job is
interesting because you're notnecessarily, like the, the
proponent of ai.
You're not here to sayeverybody needs to be using ai.
You're actually.
You talked about responsibleuse.
You talked about um, you know,understanding the technology.

(25:11):
Do you think about where school,like the future of education,
like where school needs to go,what things need to change, and
maybe just focus on your school,like, what do you think needs
to change to for us to get to aplace where more of your peers

(25:31):
are able to understand andfigure out how to integrate you?
You know, maybe it's not ai,but even just computer science,
which isn't something we'vetalked about so much.
You know, computationalthinking is not just a computer
science thing.
Uh, this is something that wecan integrate into math, into
into science and social studiesand english, right.
Um, but yeah, what is thebarrier that that we need to

(25:52):
break through?
And like, how do we, how do wedo it?

Yeah, I think that you know.
I think that, from alegislative level, you know it's
important.
I think that when people aretold that they need to do
something, they're definitelymore likely to do that.
I also feel like you knowstatistics, like people, people
like data, they like numbers,no-transcript.

(26:35):
I think it's administratorsbeing trained and, again, you
know the mindset.
You know most administrators,hopefully, are former teachers,
so it's still that same mindsetof being pushed out of the
comfort zone and I think that isprobably what sets me apart and
the reason why I've been sosuccessful in the things that

(26:55):
I've been doing, even outside ofthe classroom, is because, yeah
, I'm terrified, but I'mconstantly pushing myself beyond
my level, right.
So every time I feel like, ok,I'm comfortable with something,
I'm like, ok, what's next?
Right.
And so I think that there needsto be a shift in mindset of

(27:17):
that too as educators, as wecan't just feel like we've
gotten comfortable with where weare and with our subject matter
.
How can we push the envelope,how can we move to the next
level?
And I think for many people,like you know, that's the
difference, and so I think itwould take somebody saying like,
ok, we have to do this.
So I think it would takesomebody saying like OK, we have
to do this.
I don't know that a lot ofeducators are just going to

(27:37):
volunteer and say, oh yeah, like, totally Like, I'm going to
start doing computer science inmy classroom because they're so,
and I don't think it's a knock.
I think that they're so focusedon their subject area and how
every educator thinks that theirsubject area is the most
important one, right?
So by sometimes you feel likeif I start trying to do
something else, it's going totake away from what I'm focusing

(28:00):
on, when really we're justtrying to, like, make them work
together, because it's a moreauthentic learning experience
when it's integrated like that.

Yeah, I mean there has to be some
incentive, right, and so likeyou can create incentives in the
form of like requirements,which is actually really
important.
It's not just like, oh, this isreally cool because teachers
are busy and they don'tnecessarily have the time to go
and totally overhaul theircurriculum, but that's it.
So the stats about Englishscores and scores outside of

(28:32):
computer science actually goingup as kids are learning CS, I
guess it makes sense because alot of I mean a lot of what we
talk about at AIEDU is theimportance of what we call like
the leveraging, the humanadvantage.
You know, durable skills,critical thinking, problem
solving, perseverance, andcomputer science is sort of it's

(28:54):
almost like the embodiment oflike problem solving, iteration.
You're sort of like thepractice of computer science is
almost constantlytroubleshooting, debugging, um,
iterating, and I could totallysee how those skills are
transferable.
Um, but it is.
It's interesting because cs.
I didn't even have a cs classwhen I was in high school, I

(29:16):
think when aidu was founded.
Cs was really a track like youtalked about a silo, and it was
this sort of like track thatsome kids are going to get on um
, you know the students will optinto the like the ap computer
science class and that's becausethey want to go and get a job
in computer science.
And you're describing CS soevery student is getting it.

(29:40):
So really this is more likemath, where I use math in the
abstract day to day but I'm notwriting out functions, I'm not
using geometry in the literalsense.
But if someone asked me like ismath important?
I would say of course I.
They're just like intangiblesthat I'm sure that I developed
by learning math and I'm kind ofseeing that in the way that

(30:02):
you're describing cs.
Um, how the kids feel about, Imean, are there like, have you
seen kids kind of adopt anidentity around technology that
maybe wouldn't have happened ifthey didn't get the chance to go
into that CS class?

Yeah, I mean, I think in a few ways.
I think definitely on thedigital citizenship side for
sure, like I've heard studentsyou know, kind of call each
other out like OK, you're notbeing a responsible digital
citizen if you do that.
So that's always like a proud,like a proud moment when I like,
oh yes, you know they actuallyare listening to me, but yeah,
so one of the things that Ireally try to do in my classroom

(30:41):
to make CS like tangible andreal to them is real world
application and project basedlearning, right.
So every class period they arehands-on, they're creating a
project, and so we talk a lotabout how can we merge computer
science, how can we merge AIwith things that you're already

(31:02):
interested in.
So, for instance, with myeighth graders, when we're
talking about AI, it's like whatis a real-world problem that AI
could help solve?
And so we go through a wholeprocess of them thinking through
what's I'm like?
Whatever you care about, I'mlike, if you care about makeup,
what's the problem with makeup?
You know it's like well,sometimes you know you don't
know what makeup matches yourskin tone.

(31:24):
Okay, how could AI help solvethat problem?
So I'm constantly trying to getthem to look at it from the
lens of like, not just acomputer, but what is something
you care about, what is a realissue in the world, and how can
we use computer science or AI tohelp improve things, help make
somebody's lives better?
Because that's what's importantand that's something that I

(31:45):
drill into them a lot.
It's like we're not just codingfor coding sake, to make cool
things.
We want to learn how we can usethese tools to make people's
lives better.
And you know, I definitely couldnot finish this without talking
about the equity perspective,and I think that is what
initially kind of really got meinto the whole AI conversation

(32:09):
was I watched Coded Bias and itlike blew my whole world apart.
Right, so I was already doingwork with equity and computer
science, but hadn't reallygotten into it from like an AI
facial recognition standpoint.
But after watching Coded Biasand learning more about that, I
was like, oh my gosh.
And so I teach at a Title Ischool, so the majority of my, a

(32:31):
large number of our studentsreceive free or reduced lunch.
The majority of our studentshere are black or brown, and so
these are people whose lives aredirectly being impacted by
decisions that are being madewith these companies that are
rolling out AI.
And so I tell my students Idon't want them just to be users

(32:53):
of these, of this, the devicesand this technology.
I want them to understand.
I want them to understand thereal world implications.
So we talk about how, you know,ai is used in the justice
system to determine who getsbail Right, and so when you have
a certain population of peoplethat are disproportionately
affected by that, like you needto know that that's important,

(33:14):
of people that aredisproportionately affected by
that, like you need to know thatthat's important.
And so we actually, with someof my older students, we
actually have watch coded biasand we've had conversations you
know about.
You know, some places are usingfacial recognition.
The police are using it toidentify suspects.
Well, if we know that AI facialrecognition doesn't work as
well, the darker your skin is,that's a huge problem.

(33:36):
So, again, trying to pull inthese real world conversation,
like I feel like sometimes Ifeel like a mad woman because
I'm trying to accomplish so muchin a semester but it all feels
so important to me and I care somuch about my students that
like how could I not try toshare all of this with them and
make sure that they understand.
So it's like, yes, this classis computer science, but it's

(33:56):
like so much more than computerscience class.

Yeah, and encoded bias.
For our audience is this MITresearcher, joy Bulumwini, and
she's looking at, I think, a lotof different AI systems, but
the one that really stood out isthe fact that facial
recognition systems canmisidentify women, people with
darker skin tones, as you'vesaid.
Um, and then there's also usecases you mentioned policing,
like in housing, um, like credit, uh applications, and I think

(34:25):
what's so fascinating about?
So, first of all, joy was wayahead of the curve right, this
is pre-chat gbt when ai wasbasically invisible, like very
few people were really talkingabout AI, and yet these tools
were all over society, like insort of very subtle, insidious
ways affecting people's lives.
It's hard to have agency oversomething like that if you're

(34:46):
not even aware that it'shappening.
How do you deal with, I mean,whenever I get really into the
weeds about, you know, thesealgorithms, systems, uh, like
welfare, uh, determination isanother like really problematic
example.
Um, it frustrates me and I'meven, you know, from a point of
privilege.

(35:06):
You know, my parents areLebanese, but I'm white
presenting.
So, like I, you know, I thinkthe facial recognition probably
works quite well on my face.
Like I, you know, I think thefacial recognition probably
works quite well, on my face, Ican imagine it being extremely

(35:37):
like dispiriting, because you,you know you can learn about
these systems and but withoutsort of just making them feel
like depressed and, you know,afraid, because that seems like
a natural reaction to likelearning about what's what's
happening under their feet.

Yeah, I know I definitely feel depressed
and afraid.
Sometimes I have to just turnthe news off.
You know, I think I try to useit to inspire my students and
encourage them that it'simportant for them to be in you
know, to quote Hamilton to be inthe room where it happens,
right.
So no matter what industry.

(36:05):
So we make the connectionbetween, okay, what do you want
to do when you grow up?
And you know, no matter whatthey say, okay, well, how does
computer science tie into that,so that they're able to see that
, like, no matter what they'regoing to be doing, computer
science is going to be a part ofthat.
And so I just encourage them tomake sure again that they're
they're not just users, butthey're decision makers, no

(36:26):
matter what they're doing.
I want you, I want you to beempowered, I want you to be a
decision maker, I want you tonot just let things happen to
you.
And so that's kind of how Iframe the conversation just
trying to empower them more sothan scare them.
And I mean so far, so good.
I don't know that.
You know anybody has come andseemed terrified.

(36:51):
I actually did have one of myreturning.
She's going to be an eighthgrader this year where we'll be
doing AI, and she was asking memy thoughts on, you know,
ethical AI use.
And she was, like can we have aclassroom debate on ethical AI
use?
I said absolutely.
So I'm super excited.
I told her.
I said, yeah, we can worktogether to put a lesson where
we get to do that.
But that's the excitement for meis like seeing my students,

(37:14):
like wanting to even take their,their knowledge further than
what I'm giving them and likeyou know, how can we, how can we
apply this?
And so and that's one of thethings recently that I've got it
gotten into presenting on to isyou know AI?
And like how can we balanceusing it but also making sure
that we're cognizant of theprivacy concerns?
And like where do we draw theline?

(37:35):
And so I recently co-presentedon that at the CSTA National
Conference and I'm going to bedoing a virtual version in the
coming months.
But I'm excited aboutcontinuing those conversations
because that's what it's about,right?
It's again, it's not that likeright, but it's just like how
far are we willing to go beforewe say it's too much?

(37:56):
And just again, an educationlike educating, educating,
educating people on what'shappening and you know how we
can all play our part.

You weren't just a computer science nerd
from a young age, because Ithink sometimes it's easy for
some.
It's like you know the, uh, youknow youtube has all these like
alpha male influencers who arelike jacked and they're like
giving advice about dating andthey're like, well, you just
need to be confident and justlike well, yeah, sure, but
you're also like ripped and youknow, like, uh, I it's.
But it's very different to havesomeone who, like you, study

(38:30):
biology, which is, which is it'snot a cakewalk, but it's not
there's.
I assume you didn't take any CSwhen you were studying biology,
um, and so I think there's a,there's a if I can do it, you
can do it Credibility that you,that you bring to to that with
your kids.
Um, you mentioned somethingthat like there's no right or

(38:50):
wrong.
I like this because I thinkit's we talked about giving kids
agency.
I think one of the challengingthings that people in general
have, but I think also educators, the challenge of computer
science is it's you'reconstantly making mistakes and
iterating and troubleshooting.
I think teachers like to beright.
They'd like to know what theright answer is.
Uh, that's kind of their job,right?
It's like I'm supposed to knowthe answer so I can tell my kids

(39:12):
what's what the correct answeris.
You're describing AI ethics asactually a place where there
isn't necessarily, like adefault right or wrong answer.
Do you feel like that createsjust like makes it easier for
kids to kind of dip their toesin, where they're not
necessarily afraid of likehaving the right answer, and so

(39:32):
they're able to kind of likewade in and kind of develop an
opinion?

Yeah, and it's not just our AI
conversations.
I mean, that's my wholeclassroom is hey, like, and I
tell them all the time, like wehave a whole three before me
where, so that my classroom isset up for the students to work
collaboratively.
They're in groups of fourbecause I want them to work
through issues before they evencome to me, and I tell them all
that I'm like, a lot of timesyou guys may get to the solution

(39:58):
, somebody in your group may getto the solution before I even
can.
So I work very hard to and evenin all the presenting I do, I'm
not presenting because I'm theexpert, right, I'm just
presenting because I'm thefacilitator of this conversation
, and that's how I try toapproach my classroom in general
as, like, the moderator, thefacilitator of conversations.

(40:19):
But yeah, my students I meanthere's so many of them, they're
so smart and you know, Idefinitely have no problem
admitting like they're like oh,this is wrong or oh, okay,
you're right.
Yep, thanks for pointing thatout.
I appreciate you.
You know we have a rewardsystem.
They get rewarded for it, so Itry.
I think that that speaks a lotto culture, though, and you know

(40:40):
, you have to be confidentenough in yourself to be okay
with making mistakes and I amdefinitely okay with making
mistakes.
You know, technology goes wrongand it's just like you know.
I think it's important.
Educators should always bemodeling for our students.
So it's one thing for us totell them you should, you know,

(41:00):
do this, but it's another thingfor us to model.
So if I'm modeling for themlike oops, I got that wrong, but
the world is not ending, it'sokay, then I feel like they're
more likely to internalize thatmessage for themselves versus me
just telling them that butpresenting another way.

I was thinking about even when we were
kicking off this podcast andand your sound wasn't working.
You were so like Zen, you'relike, oh, yeah, it sounded
working, like you just sort oflike trying it out.
And well, I've had other guestswhere it's just like, oh,
they're freaking out and it'slike I need to restart my
computer and it's like it's agood thing, because we kind of

(41:39):
assume that this generation is,you know, gen Z, gen Alpha, are,
you know, tech natives.
But what?
I heard, one anecdote from ateacher.
I'm curious if you've seensomething similar where, um, you
know, when we were growing upwith computers, it often was
just broken, like we wereconstantly troubleshooting.
I remember, like the first timeI got an ipod and I spent like

(42:01):
eight hours, you know, like lateinto the night with my dad
trying to figure out how to getthe it was like firewire to work
.
It just didn't work and we hadto like do all this stuff?
Um, and now technology justworks like most of the time it
just works.
You just turn on the computeror you go into chrome.
And so my teacher wasdescribing if a student can't
figure out how to like log intochrome for to like, uh, their
google suite um they just likedon't know what to do.

(42:23):
it's like the, the practice oftroubleshooting, like do you do
you see that and do you findthat you actually have to
because you talk about modelingsort of this like best practice
of like just troubleshooting ina way?
That's you know, that's alsosort of a mental state, like
yeah, does that story?
Have you seen something similarto that?
Like, are kids like less aptfor troubleshooting than people

(42:47):
might expect?

Yeah, absolutely.
And you know, even with my ownkids, and so, like my son in
particular, you know he will askme questions and I'm trying to
get better because I thinksometimes as adults, like we
just kind of, and as teachers,we just kind of want to like
give the answer so we can keepgoing, and I'm trying to like
force myself to slow down alittle bit and like give them

(43:10):
that opportunity, like give themthat opportunity.
So, like you know he'll, he'llask me a question and I'm like,
well, what do you think?
How do you think you should doit, or what setting do you think
it should be?
And then he just goes and doesit and so, like I actually never
help him, but it's somethingjust in him to ask the question
every time.
And so the same thing with thestudents, like trying to get
them to again go to each other.

(43:30):
That three before me so go toeach other, that three before me
so go to each other, becausethen they're having an
opportunity to practice thatwith each other before they come
to me.
And then, if they come to me,it's like, okay, well, you know,
what can we try?
But yeah, they are very likewhen something think about.
It has to do with the model ofeducation.

(43:51):
There's been so much focus ongetting to the right answer,
right Testing is all aboutgetting the right answer and
we've lost there's not as muchfocus on the process of getting
there, the journey, and so oneof the ways that I model that in
my classroom is so, yes, theyhave projects and they have

(44:13):
rubrics for how their projectsare graded, but once they submit
a project, I give them feedbackand I give it back to them and
then they can go take thatfeedback and apply and they can
edit their projects and resubmit, because I want to reward them
for the journey.
Right, because my goal is forthem to learn Right, it's not

(44:33):
about like just a number.
And so it's interesting becauseyou have the students that I
mean.
Man, if they lost one point,they are going back in there and
they are making that adjustment.
But I'm always surprised at howmany students, particularly like

(44:54):
we do, like digital citizenship, like our, we have like
wrap-ups to the lesson, but theycan go in and edit their
answers and so many kids arelike nope, I'm good with that
grade, you know, because it'slike that's all that they're
focused on is just the grade andlike, well, the grade is
acceptable, not the, thelearning of wow, wow, why did I
miss that question?
Let me go back in.
So I always love the studentsthat are like, no, no, it marked
it as wrong.
But I know, I know this is theright answer.

(45:16):
And I'm like, well, maybe it is, and let's look at it.
And then I'm like, okay, well,this is saying this.
And then they're like, oh,that's not the right answer, and
I love that.
I love that because that'sshowing me that they care about
the journey, they care about theactual knowledge versus just
the grade, and I feel likethat's what education should be.
But it's so hard and it feelsso overwhelming sometimes when

(45:40):
we think about having to makechanges on a systemic level and
like overhaul everything.
So that's probably the answerthat I don't have is like, how
do we do that?

I mean, but , like in the workplace, very
rarely do you just get one shot.
I mean, everything is like oh,let me send you a draft and then
your boss gives you somefeedback and you're like your
client gives you feedback oryour customer gives you feedback
and then you're sort ofiterating on it.
Yeah, um, in fact, I think theonly time I've really ever taken
a test was like maybe in, likean application, like maybe

(46:15):
sometimes there's like a,there's a test during the
interview process, but you don'treally get tested at work.
You almost always are iterating.

Yeah, but like type A personalities
struggle with that and I'm likea type A, you know, in remission
, but it's, you know, you wantto get everything right the
first time.
Remission, but it's, you know,you want to get everything right
the first time.
And I think it's so funny that,like you said, like oh, you
were so Zen because, like insideI'm like, oh my gosh, like you
know what's happening, Iactually got a tattoo and it
says Zen on it, because I'm likereminding myself that I need to

(46:44):
stay in that place.
But yeah, for type A people andyou know, I worked in corporate
, you know, before I moved intoeducation and I just felt like
it was such a different modeland so, even once getting into
education and once I startedpresenting, like you know, the
best advice somebody ever toldme was that a presentation is

(47:06):
just a conversation.
Right, because I wanted to come,I wanted to stand in front of
the room, I wanted to have amastery over everything, I
didn't want to make any mistakes, stumble over any words and
just be perfect and justrealizing like one.
That's not relatable to a lotof people, because then they
feel like they can't do what youdo, right, it's not authentic

(47:28):
and it's not sustainable and itput a lot of stress on myself.
And so when, yeah, when shetold me that like presenting is
just a conversation, like it, Idon't know why it was so simple,
but it just changed everythingfor me.
And so now, like I'm so muchmore relaxed and you know, like
when I'm presenting, like I justenjoy myself and enjoy engaging
with people, and so I think,yeah, it's just, I don't know,

(47:51):
it's just a big difference inmindset, a shift in mindset.

Yeah, it's just, I don't know it's just a
big difference in mindset, ashift in mindset.
Yeah, it's funny because Inever actually thought of it
like that.
But people ask like, oh, youseem, you always seem so relaxed
.
They ask oh, are you nervousbefore a talk?
And I usually have not, butit's.
I kind of have a flaw, which isI'm really bad at memorizing
like a talk track.
In fact I'm.

(48:13):
I was doing recording like theintro to our YouTube channel and
I probably sent like 30 minutesof just like me making mistakes
.
Oh, let me try that again.
And I just like I'm really badat memorizing and like
rehearsing and sort of like likeI'd be a horrible actor.
I'd probably be very good atimprov, but it'd be really bad
actor.
So my secret is, yeah, I kindof just go and riff when I

(48:35):
present and so it feels like I'mjust having a conversation with
the crowd.
I never like sort of made thatconnection of like that's kind
of why I had this conversationalstyle and I think people
actually, I think peoplegravitate to that.
I think there's like anauthenticity that comes with not
being perfect, um, notnecessarily getting every single
point.
Um, I went in.

(48:57):
I want to transition into thisquestion that I've been obsessed
with?
I'm sure you have been.
If not obsessed with it, youhave to be thinking about it.
So how long have you beenteaching computer science?

So I think this is my seventh year.
I'm entering into my seventhyear.

Okay, so it's 2025.
So it's like 2018, uh, roughlyum 2018.
This is, like you know,computer science was at a period
like in a total heyday, likepeople were making crazy amounts
of money, like all the bestjobs, all the companies that
were growing the fastest Google,microsoft, facebook, airbnb, et

(49:47):
cetera these are all placeswhere, you know, to really
advance you had to have computerscience, and I think computer
science had this sort of thisreputation as sort of like a
vocational track where it's likego and major in cs, get on the
cs pathway and you'll get one ofthese amazing jobs.
Um, and and today there's just,I think, a lot of uncertainties
.
We're seeing, you know, wildlyhigh unemployment rates among

(50:12):
college grads with cs degrees.
And then there's lots ofcompanies that and I don't know
if they're being you know,there's a lot of hype, so it's
hard to really sort of readthrough the I'm not gonna call
it misinformation, but readthrough like the, the, the
strategy that these companiesmight be having.
Uh, but they're laying off likelots of people.
They're laying off engineersand they're saying, oh well,

(50:32):
we're using ai.
Um, and so I've I've seen likepeople that are saying, oh well,
kids don't need to learncomputer science anymore.
Ai is just going to do all thecoding.
Before I react to that becauseI want to sort of give you my
take, but maybe I'm sure thishas come up with you Like how do
you respond to a parent or astudent who's like, well,
microsoft just laid off you knowa few thousand engineers.

(50:56):
Like why do I really need to belearning CS if the AI is going
to be doing it for me?

Yeah, I think I always start with again
those skills, right.
So computer science is theclassroom, it's the vehicle
through which I'm teaching theseskills and these thought
processes, and so I mean I thinkit's important just for that
standpoint, right, and like,just like you were too, you were

(51:23):
using, you know, the whole maththing.
Like we have calculators, wehave smartphones, but like we
still need to, we still need toknow math.
And so you know, and I think,from a creative standpoint, I
think it's important forstudents to know how to create
in this manner.
You know, yes, ai is replacing alot of things, but I still push

(51:47):
that I like to use AI as a tooland not an end-all, be-all.
And then I think too that there, you know, we know that there
are issues with AI sometimes andhallucinations and some of the
things.
So students still need theskill set of being able to think
critically about theinformation that is being

(52:08):
generated by AI, to actually say, okay, does this make sense in
the context of you know how I'musing it?
So I'm not quite there yetwhere I'm just like, oh yeah,
let's just pass everything over.
I think that you know, maybethere's basic level, like what
is happening when I do this?

(52:41):
Why do I need to you know?
the way that I see you just usedthat as an interruption.
If, before you leave today, youcould stop by the office and
make sure your contactinformation is updated, I would
appreciate it.
Thank you so much.
Life of a teacher.

Amazing.
Yeah, definitely keeping thatin.

Amazing, yeah, about how companies
literally have people who youknow psychologists that know
about addictive design and howto keep users on their devices
longer, like.
So again I feel like again I'mtrying to cover so much, but I
just I want my students tounderstand that it's not just,
yeah, like it can generate code,but there's so much more that
you need to think about when wethink about coding and AI and
all of that, and so I stillthink that there's value in the
education.

Yeah, I mean 100 percent Right.
It's like the like even the oneexample that you had shared
earlier where you were sort ofchallenging students to think
about you know what is somethingyou're passionate about, like
how could AI or computer sciencehelp you, like, solve a problem
?
Makeup, you know, find theright, you know, shade of makeup
.
Um, you know you're buildingthe muscles for entrepreneurship

(54:07):
and you know that's what wekeep hearing from ceos is like
we need kids who you need, weneed workers who are
entrepreneurial and likeproactive and problem solvers
and creative thinkers.
And I really can't think of anyother subject where there is
like that much exposure to thoseskills.
You can build those skills inmath or in english or in science

(54:29):
, but you know they're sliversof the day, whereas computer
science, almost as a vocate,almost as a project, is like you
know, you're, you're basicallyconstantly flexing those durable
skills, the computationalthinking skills.
Um, so that that's been, that'sbeen my sort of evolution is
paradoxically, I think computerscience is actually more
important than ever before,because if ai is going to be

(54:53):
doing all this stuff, thequestion is well, it's not that
ai is just going to be writingcode, it's also going to be
writing papers, writing emails,writing memos, doing it, you
know, going through spreadsheets, um.
So what are companies going tobe looking for if we're just
thinking about just the jobs?
Uh, like the career aspect, um.

(55:15):
But then you describe somethingelse which is like being able
to like having agency in theworld around you, not just
knowing that netflix is using aito recommend shows, but also
like should you just be watchingthe shows that netflix is
recommending, such a powerful?
Or also like should you just beon tikt?

(55:37):
Like, why are you seeing someof these crazy reels or some of
these crazy TikToks?

It's like , yeah, or even when you're
saying something and then itshows up on your.
You look something up on theinternet and then it shows up as
an ad on your Facebook.
How is that working?
So those are important thingsto know.
If you don't ever stop to think, why is that happening, then
you're just like, oh, what acoincidence.
But then you're like, oh, no,there's data and they're selling
data and you know, and there'sall these different components.

(56:21):
I just think it makes for amore educated society and it's
like you know, when you, whenyou know better, like you should
do better.
So it should inform thedecisions that you're making.
And I also think there's just ahuman aspect that AI won't
replicate right, the basichumanity.
And so I mean, I would hate tolive in an AI world where that

(56:48):
humanity is lost, becausehumanity is such a beautiful
thing and that's not somethingthat would be replicated.

I don't know what you want when I go to
restaurants.
If it's like a sit downrestaurant, like a nice
restaurant, if they like pullout an iPad, I'm like I don't
want to just like tap into aniPad, even though it's like by
far the most efficient thing youcould prepay.
It's like um, but part of whywe pay money to go to a
restaurant is like theexperience of like having like a
waiter that comes and sort oflike it's like, you know, just

(57:15):
interacting with you Um, justinteracting with you, um, and
there's probably a lot ofexample that can I ask about
your, you, um, you, you.
You ran a smokehouse for acouple of years.

That keeps coming up.
Yeah, so I didn't run asmokeout.
I was a co-owner of a foodtruck and catering company, um,
and so we focused.
Yeah it was, it was Texas andNorth Carolina styles of
barbecue.
And yeah it was.
We did that for a few years.
It was.
It was a good time.

Do you?
I mean, do you see anyparallels with?
Because actually, like, forthose who don't know, like
running a food truck is is hard?
I mean it is, it is.
It is like running a restaurantbut you're constantly trying to
like find where where do I parkit.
It's it is like running arestaurant but you're constantly
trying to like find where do Ipark it.
It's you have like very limitedspace.
You have to be.
Every single item that you haveis like you'd be super
thoughtful.
Do you find any parallels withsome like the entrepreneurial

(58:09):
skills that you were flexingrunning the food truck and when
you're sort of like in yourclassroom teaching CS?

and when you're sort of like in your
classroom teaching CS, yeah, Imean you have to be flexible
because inevitably you're goingto plan, plan, plan and
something is going to change orgo wrong.
So I think, just having thatability to pivot and not be so
rigid to a plan that you can'tmake those adjustments in the
moment adjustments in the momentI also, I mean I like to say

(58:44):
that you know, I'm smart enoughto figure things out and so you
know, did I have a background infood truck running or bookings
or any of that stuff?
No, of course not, just like Ididn't have a background in
computer science.
But I trust my ability to learnand stay learning new things,
which I think is important.
So that is, I mean thatprobably the whole learning, the

(59:04):
lifelong learning thing.
That is probably the thing thatties together all of the
different things that I do.
I just had the opportunity.
I just wrapped up a three-monthproject.
Month Project, I was themanaging editor of a handbook
through CS for Everyone, amentoring program that I'd been
privileged to be a part of forthe last few years.
But we put together a handbook,an 80-page handbook, and I was

(59:27):
the managing editor.
Like, have I ever been amanaging editor or like?
No, of course not, but like youknow, I was like, oh, this is a
great opportunity.
So again, just that thing aboutbeing willing to, to stretch
myself, push myself beyondwhat's comfortable, um, and try
and try something new, is what,what it's all about.

And part of that is just coming out of
confidence in yourself.
I I think a lot about what,like?
Where does that confidence comefrom for, like know, young
growing adults?
Um, I mean, can you trace itback to a parent or a teacher in
your life that, because,clearly, like you know, the one

(01:00:07):
through line in your life is youkind of have this orientation
to trying new things, you know,sort of pushing yourself into,
um, uncomfortable spaces.
Yeah, like was there.
Can you trace it back to any,like any influential person in
your life?

Michelle Shomo Pierce (01:00:26):
Well, I will say I mean, my parents are
definitely very supportive of me, always have been about, you
know, whatever I wanted to do,but I think that my greatest
growth in that area is probablymore as an adult.
I feel like I, in a sense, Iwas a bit of a late bloomer, and
so I always credit the AmazonFuture Engineer Program.

(01:00:50):
They are the ones I so I wonthe Teacher of the Year Award
through them, and then I waspart of Teacher of the Year
Award through them, and then Iwas part of ended up being part
of an ambassador group that theystarted the inaugural group.
But it was really peoplebelieving in me before I
believed in myself.
So you know the people that Iwere working with.

(01:01:11):
They were like, hey, we'regoing to put you on the main
stage.
Well, I was going to aconference and they were like,
you're going to represent us inthe booth.
I said, oh, no problem, Ishould be able to do that.
And then they said, oh, by theway, we're also going to put you
on the main stage and you'regoing to introduce one of the
keynote speakers.
And I was like, hmm, don't knowhow I feel about that, but

(01:01:42):
something in me said well, if,seeing, like, ok, they believed
in you, you did it.
And then you moved on and youdid something else.
And you did something else thatlike kind of it was almost like
a muscle I was exercising untilI got to a point where I could
believe in myself.
And so now, you know, when newthings come, I'm like, well,
everything else that I've tried,you know like I've been able to
get through, so I can getthrough this too.

(01:02:04):
And so, with that being said,one of the things that I'm a big
proponent of and I dopresentations on this is the
power of mentoring.
And so, because mentoring is soimportant in that, so I have
had amazing people in my paththat have mentored me, that have
supported me and encouraged mealong the way, and so that is

(01:02:24):
something that I talk about alot in the computer science
community especially.
I do a lot of work withincreasing female representation
in computer science and STEM,and a large part of that is
mentoring.
So people that look like youdoing something, so you know
they have, that is mentoring.
So people that look like youdoing something, so you know
they have that saying if you cansee it, you can be it and then
I do a Girls who Code codingclub that I facilitate here at

(01:02:48):
my school and that's a big partof what we do with the girls is
just talking to them about thatand giving them opportunities to
see people in the field andtalk to them.
So that's so critical.
I think that we need community.
You know that's how I gotinvolved with CSTA, because I
didn't have as a CS teacher.
A lot of computer scienceteachers are in that silo where

(01:03:09):
there's not others at theirschool or in their district.
So it's so important to findthat community of educators that
you can connect with and youguys can kind of support each
other through.
So that's been a very big partfor me is my community, and so
I'm always looking foropportunities to expand that
community and that's actuallyhow we connected Alex right.

(01:03:31):
So I think that all of myjourney, all of my
accomplishments, all of theamazing opportunities that I've
had have been because of thecommunity and the networking and
the relationships with people,relationships and everything.
And I think that is anotherthing that's changing in society
.
Now it's less about you knowyour resume or your accolades or

(01:03:54):
your grades, it's more aboutthe connections and the
relationships, and so I try toget my kids and my students to
understand that, like you haveto be.
And the problem is, though, isthe reliance on technology is
almost in opposition to that.
Because they're on devices,they're not having those
personal interactions andconnections as much.

(01:04:15):
So getting them to understandthe value of putting the devices
down, being face-to-face andinteracting with people, yeah.

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:04:25):
Yeah, it's a double-edged sword because on
the one hand you knowrelationships can be a way of
breaking through.
You know you look at somebody'sresume.
it's really hard to get a senseof that person just from like
the bullets on the page yeah um,you sit down and have a
conversation with somebody, likeit's a chance for someone to
really get to know you, um, butit also means that you're you're

(01:04:50):
limited to the, the networksthat that exist, and I think
what's so important with whatyou're describing with csta is,
like you breaking out of some ofthe traditional confines of
tech, which is really hard.
I mean, I'm in Silicon Valley,I'm in San Francisco, but you go
to Silicon Valley and it isjust, it's non-diverse, it's a

(01:05:12):
bunch of white guys usually.
I think there's like a statthat, like, I think less than 1%
of venture capitalists areblack and I think it's even
smaller to like for, like, blackwomen.

Wow.

And so if you're a black woman founder,
you are almost never pitchingsomebody with your lived
experience, and that can bereally frustrating and it is
really frustrating.
But I mean, the only solution,right, is like like, how do we
bring more people in to, notnecessarily VC, but like
technology and like these fields?

(01:05:44):
And you know, all the programsand curriculum in the world
won't be a substitute for whatyou're describing right, like
staying with the learning,because they're around other
people that are sort of likegiving them that energy, that
inspiration, um, so thank youfor what you're doing.

(01:06:07):
I mean, I'm curious about whatto that.
I mean, like this may be agreat way for us to even close,
you know, because at aidu we'reobsessed with this how do we
build, how do we make AIreadiness something that really
sticks with a district?
And what we found is just havingcurriculum, just having, you
know, pd by itself is definitelynot enough.

(01:06:27):
You know, people will come tothe PD, even if the curriculum
is amazing.
They're back into their life,they're back into their routine.
You have to have community andI'm curious, like, like, as
someone who maybe is, you know,still in the process of trying
to figure out how to build yourown community in your own school
, but someone who's seen andconnected with communities
across the country, like whatworks?

(01:06:50):
Is it like professionallearning cohorts?
Is it, you know?
Does do like online communities?
Fill that gap.
Like, like, what should we begiving?
Be me advice.
This is your chance to tell uswhat to do.

Yeah, it's like the never ending
question.
I was participating in a focusgroup through the Friday
Institute at NC State and thosewere the conversations is like,
how do we do this?
I do think that, likeprofessional learning
communities are great.
I feel like so much of mypersonal growth has come through
that area, so I think that thatthat that that really is a

(01:07:24):
great opportunity.
I saw you guys have, like your,your fellowship that you're
offering, like I think those aregreat opportunities too because
I don't know, it's somethingabout a fellowship that to me,
makes things a little bit moremanageable when I'm like in a
group with people like, andwe're all trying to like figure
out that thing together.
I was part of the CSTA ImpactFellowship, the fifth cohort,

(01:07:48):
and I mean I learned so much andhad so much professional growth
through that.
You know I had opportunity todeliver my flash talk on the
main stage at CSTA NationalConference in Las Vegas, which
was crazy, right, but thatopportunity came through that.
So, having you know we hadmentors in that, in that group

(01:08:11):
and, again, having people tokind of that have maybe reached
a certain level, reaching backfor others to help them get
there, and I think that, likethose fellowships are a really
great way, the professionallearning communities are a
really great way and and it'sjust I mean, it really is just
an education thing, right thepeople that get it, trying to

(01:08:33):
pull the people that don't alongalongside.

But it's hard because teachers are busy.
Yeah, educators are busy.
It's the idea of, like you know, three months of summer
vacation is such a misnomer.
It's like it's not three monthswell no, it's two months.

Yeah, we got june and july off and that's
it.
And so, yeah, it's two months.
But you know, and but see, thisis where it gets into this
whole conversation aboutsystemic change, because part of
the issue too is like teacherpay is horrible.
I mean, my state was like inthe bottom 10 out of all 50
states, like you know.

(01:09:09):
So there is just it's it's somany angles.
I think that we have to hit itto make real impact, and that's
the part sometimes to me thatfeels a little bit overwhelming
is like, yeah, we need teachersto do real impact, and that's
the part sometimes to me thatfeels a little bit overwhelming.
It's like, yeah, we needteachers to do more things, but
when they're already stretchedthin, you know they're already
not getting paid enough.
So, like, how do we?

(01:09:29):
So I feel like it has to allkind of work together.

Well, this is the hard thing about doing
work in education is it's somulti-dimensional.
That is that a school faces,and you're, like you know, I was
like talking to somebody at dcpublic schools and you know
we're talking about like thefuture of work and ai, and at
one point they were just likeyou know, we have like almost

(01:09:55):
like a 30 or 40 percent, uh,absenteeism problem, like until
we solve that, and then, andthen why is there 30 or 40
percent absenteeism problem?
Well, yes, part of it is likelearning needs to be more
meaningful and engaging andconnected to like what's
relevant to students.
Um, a lot of students are likeliving in, like you know, abject

(01:10:15):
poverty.
You know, um, even in thedistrict of columbia, which is
one of, like the richest partsof the country, you know abject
poverty.
Yep, even in the District ofColumbia, which is one of, like
the richest parts of the country.
You know, you don't have to gotoo far to Anacostia to be
around like people who areliterally, literally just barely
making ends meet, not surewhere their next meal is coming
from, and, as an educator likeyou actually literally cannot
solve those problems by yourself.

(01:10:36):
And like there's a broaderquestion of like what's the role
of policy and all this Um.
But I feel like the only waythat the way that I stay
grounded is by surroundingmyself with folks like you, who
are like finding their place inthe problem, set to try to push

(01:10:57):
things forward and like creating, and like doing that with joy
as opposed to just with likethrowing your arms up in the air
.
Um, is there?
Yeah, oh yeah, no, feel free torespond to that.

I just yeah, no, and I think yeah
because you know, even when wewe have the conversation about
ai, like we have to keep in mind, you know, that there is a
population of people that don'teven have internet, and so, you
know, or I have students andit's like, well, how can I do
this if all I have at home is aphone, you know?
And so then we have this dividebetween you know, we have AI

(01:11:31):
and we have all this technology,but there's a population of
people that are getting leftbehind, and so, you know, how
does that like, what does thatmean If we're talking about
moving to an AI driven future,but then we have people that
don't have AI access.
Like what does that mean, youknow?

And so, yeah, we, there is just, it's so
many, it's so many things, andthat's why I'm like, that's why
I feel like I'm all over theplace, like not in a bad way,

(01:12:13):
but just trying to cover as manyareas as I can, to fill as many
gaps as I can, because I justdon't want to see like my
students get left behind justbecause of where they come from
or because of the color of theirskin.
We close out any.
What do for?
For folks who are listening,who are whether they're funders,
maybe they're at companies,maybe they're just really
energized by this, thischallenge of you know, helping
to transform schools and makesure students are ready to

(01:12:34):
thrive in this, this new worldof ai.
Like what do you need more of?
Like how can they help teacherslike you?

Yeah, I mean, I think funding is always
a thing you know.
You know, even as a computerscience teacher, you know it's
like okay, we need.
You know we're usingChromebooks here.
Well, chromebooks are greatfrom one standpoint, but they're
not great when you're trying todo kind of some heavy loading.
So resources is always and Ialways envision this thing right

(01:13:04):
Because there's so manyorganizations doing so many
great things.
But I really envision thisthing of like some kind of
collaborative force and I knowit's like you know it's kind of
counterintuitive to our society,like everybody wants to like be
number one, but like if some ofthe big names would like come
together, like Voltron, you know, and like like a power thing

(01:13:28):
because it's, it's there's somany.
Like there's one group is doingthis and one group is doing
that, but again, sometimes itgets overwhelming because like
what do I want to do?
But like we could get like acollective gathering of like
resources.
So it's like this is thepowerhouse.
This is where you come Like Idon't know, I feel like it's
very utopian, are always time,you know, if there was a way to

(01:13:59):
the teachers you know like totake off, like okay, I want to
take off to go to thisconference.
Well, I have to create sub plans, and then I can't leave my
computers here because the kidswould destroy them if I'm not
here.
So now I have to come up withcomputer science lessons that
don't utilize computers, youknow.
So it's you know, givingteachers the opportunity to
participate in these types ofthings, but not making it like

(01:14:22):
an additional burden on them.
And it's sad because, like allsummer, like I've been doing
stuff right, I've beenpresenting at conferences, I've
been in focus groups, becausethat's when teachers have time,
but that's also when teachersneed a break.

But that's also when teachers need a break.
Yeah, again, the completemisnomer of the summer, that's
off, right, and yeah, I meanlike I think we shouldn't be shy
about this Like there's onevery simple answer to the
question of like, what doteachers need?
And it's resources, it's morepay.
I mean, oh, my God, my momworks 60 hours a week.

(01:15:00):
Um, my mom works more than me alot of the time I did it's wild
because she's going on theweekend, she's going to like the
talent show and um, and it'sjust wild to me that there's
we're so like aghast at the ideaof teachers making a, you know,
like a reasonable wage.
And strikes me it's like inJapan, you, if you, you try, and

(01:15:22):
if you try to become a teacher,and if you, if you, if you fail
at becoming a teacher, it'slike okay, I guess I'll do my
fallback, I'll try to go tomedical school, like that's how
revered educators are inJapanese society.
And I just don't understandwhere we lost the plot in the US
, where yeah, it's the opposite.

We're like oh, I don't know what I
want to do.
I guess I'll be a teacher.

Yeah, there's a stupid phrase I'm not
even going to repeat, aboutteaching.

Well, and teachers need to be listened to
also, like, I think that andthat comes with professionalism,
like, right, like nobody'sgoing to a doctor saying no, no,
no, no.
I think that and that comeswith professionalism, right,
nobody's going to a doctorsaying no, no, no, no.
I think I know how to performthis open heart surgery better
than you, but yet in the fieldof education, everybody always
thinks that they know betterthan the teachers, and that's
very frustrating, and so I'mvery fortunate to be part of

(01:16:13):
organizations that do value andlisten to teacher voices, but I
think that that is not alwaysthe norm.
So there are always decisionsbeing made about teachers, but
teachers have no agency in theprocess, and so I think that is
also a very big thing that Ithink would need to change is

(01:16:33):
giving teachers voices anddecision-making power.

Yeah, especially in this moment where
we are making some really bigdecisions about what education
is going to look like, whatsociety is going to look like.
Michelle Shamo Pierce, this wasreally fun.
Are you any other conferenceson the?

(01:17:02):
You're back in school now, soyou're probably your conference
season's winding down.
Do you have?
Will you be at like South bySouthwest maybe, or the AI show?

No, my conference season never winds
down.
There's always conferences.
So I do kind of shift a littlebit this part of the year I tend
to do more local conferences.
So I do kind of shift a littlebit this part of the year I tend
to do more local conferences,so I'm doing like some North
Carolina ones focused on likeSTEM.
But yeah, there's alwayssomething.
There's a big shift now forvirtual conferences, which that
was kind of one of my mostrecent hurdles, because I'm used

(01:17:32):
to presenting but then havingto record presentations, to
present virtually has been new,but there's been a big push for
that.
So I've been participating in afew virtual conferences.
So it never ends for me.
Every time I think it's goingto end, something else pops up
or somebody tells me they needme to go to something.
So it's always I never knowwhere it, just you know.

(01:17:53):
But again, I love the journeyand I love I've become OK with
not knowing right, not knowingwhat's next and just waiting for
the next opportunity, becauseit always leads to something fun
like this, right, so yeah, soI'm very grateful.

And, speaking of that, if someone is,
you know, planning a conferenceand looking for an amazing
keynote speaker or presenter,what's the best way for them to
contact you?

Yeah, so actually I'm launching my
business and my website isalmost done.
I guess maybe by the time thisis released that'll be done,
Maybe by the time this isreleased, it'll be done.
Yeah, so it's gonna be.
I'll just go ahead and put itout there.
Right, it's gonna be.
So it's gonna be my initials,msp Collective, so you'll be

(01:18:40):
able to search me up.
But you can also find me onLinkedIn, instagram, facebook,
tiktok, michelle Shamo Pierce.
It's across the board.
I'll probably be transitioningthings to MSP Collective as we
get it rolling, but, yeah, youcan find me.
Linkedin is great.
Post lots of information onthere and try to keep it updated
about what I'm doing.
Yeah, center of GM.
Linkedin is great.
Post lots of information onthere and try to keep it updated
about what I'm doing.

Yeah, center of GM Michelle is really
fun.
I'll let you get back to prep.
When did the kids come toschool?

On Monday A week yes.

Okay, I'll leave you to your Friday.
Hopefully you're able to getout of the building a little
early.
And yeah, thanks again forjoining.
This was super fun.

Thanks, Alex.

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