Shawna Young: Investing in overlooked founders

Episode Transcript
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Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (00:01):
Hey everybody, I'm Alex Kotran.
I'm the CEO and co-founder ofAIEDU.
I'm here with Shawna Young, theCEO of Camelback Ventures, and
Shawna is actually someone whohas done a lot more than just
lead Camelback Ventures.
She's actually been championinghow do we sort of build

(00:22):
capacity and sort of identifyand nurture talent, diverse and
broad talent from sort of allthe corners of the country that
are not always, you know, frontand center when we think about
investing in innovation.
So, Shawna, I'm really excitedto sort of there's a lot that we
can cover Before we startnerding out about I mean, we
were just talking about sort ofthe potential for AI and this

(00:43):
sort of idea of you didn't sayuser-centered design, but almost
like this like how do we, howdo we empower and nurture the
builders and builders who aren'tnecessarily the traditional
folks that are currentlycreating a lot of the tools?
But before we get there, I meancan you just give us a little
bit of your, your story?
I mean, you're, how long haveyou been at Camelback?
And maybe if you could sort ofwalk us along your journey to

(01:05):
leading you, know, one of themost prestigious organizations
right now.
That's sort of doing reallypre-seed early stage investments
and founders and people withbig ideas for social innovation.

Shawna Young (Camelback V (01:15):
Thank you, Alex.
Thank you so much.
Yeah, I think my journey startswith where I grew up in
Fayetteville, north Carolina, sogrowing up in the South.
I grew up in Fayetteville,North Carolina, so growing up in
the South, growing up in amilitary town.
It was interesting, right,because everyone at my school my
public high school all dreamedto go to college, and many of us
did.
Regardless of yoursocioeconomic background, we all

(01:37):
really felt like we had thesame lived experience.
And so when I went to HowardUniversity in DC majoring in
chemistry, it was the first timeI really really saw how broad
the span of black excellencereally is.
And for me, what it immediatelysaid in my brain is if there's
this much depth and amazingnessI'll make up a word today around

(02:02):
the black community, it has tobe in all communities.
That was my first thought, likeoh my gosh, there's incredible
people around the world, butthey all don't have the same
opportunities.
And it took me back to when Iwas in elementary school and
middle school and I justliterally remember one of my
teachers tapped me on theshoulder like, hey, shauna, you
ask a lot of questions, which Ido, tons of questions.

(02:24):
You're very inquisitive.
Um, there's this program calledDuke tip, and it's for gifted
and talented students.
You should you know you shouldapply for it, or you should take
this above level test, sat, inseventh grade and you should be
in these programs now andcourses now.
So, luckily for me, I wasidentified by a teacher right
and it reminded me of theimportance of not just education

(02:48):
, but someone who sees youngpeople for who they truly are.
So after my journey at Howard,and since eight years old, I
thought I wanted to be a teacher, I mean a doctor, and I
literally realized in HowardUniversity I didn't want to be
in the hospital every day Like Idon't want to be a doctor.
I don't know where that camefrom and I think it really came
from this like societal visionof who is successful in the

(03:10):
world, and even though my momwas a teacher, I just didn't
assign that to being successful.
So once I started out fromHoward, decided not to go into
being a doctor, went to GE forone year.
Corporate America in 1998-97was not me either.
So then I literally just had toaccept that I wanted to be a

(03:34):
teacher and so I quit my job atGE and I went back.
My parents I got the two parentphone call.
Are you really, really, reallysure about this?
And it was the best decision Iever made.
When I walked in the classroom,even though I didn't know
exactly how to be a teacherbecause I was a lateral entry, I
didn't take any educationcourses, I just went into the

(03:56):
classroom with a big hope anddream and it was a journey, but
I knew it was where I wassupposed to be.
And so, after one year teachingat Sun Valley High School,
outside of in Monroe, northCarolina, outside of Charlotte,
I went to Chapel Hill and I wentback to school, did student
teaching and learned how to be ateacher and went from Sun

(04:16):
Valley High School in Durham,north Carolina, where it was the
inverse.
Like 95% of my student body wasblack.
I had amazing, amazing teachingcolleagues at both places, but
different demographics ofstudents, and I remember
immediately the characterizationof the two schools being very

(04:40):
different, just based on testscores.
And so for me again, because myknowledge was, everybody is
spectacular, everyone could,like you know, do their best if
they're given opportunities thefirst thing I thought about is
these test scores do notrepresent my students, and so it
was really important for me toprovide learning opportunities

(05:01):
for them that would illuminatetheir brilliance and change the
perception and their test scores.
Honestly, because it was aroundhigh standards of expectations,
authentic experiences outsidethe classroom, like we were
gardening, you know, at our highschool we were going on ski
trips for physics students, youknow, we were going to museums.

(05:22):
I was like let's go, and formany, many of my students, it's
the first time they'd ever doneany of those things and so and
we were doing it as a department, like Shauna saved no, it's
like let's all do this as ascience department, science team
, because I knew it would change.
Like how our students learn, andI remember that I was so
nervous about this high stakestesting.
I didn't go through it when Iwent to public school, but I was

(05:44):
so nervous about it.
I was like I have to teach myyoung people how to learn and
answer questions and this isinquiry-based learning.
Back, everything.
You know, every season is a newname, but once I shifted to
that, it just changed myconfidence.
It changed how my students getexcited about coming in the
classroom.
We also had deep relationshipswith each other and so after

(06:07):
that I moved to.
I became a mom and moved toMassachusetts and found this
whole new world of educationalnonprofits that I didn't really
see in North Carolina at thetime.
So I worked at EDC EducationDevelopment Center developing
online curriculum for AP courses, training for teachers, and

(06:28):
this was like 2005, 2006.
And I had already been an earlyadopter as an AP science
teacher, teaching kids acrossChemistry Was it AP Chem?
It was AP, so I did AP, I did APPhysics and then I did.
I had another AP Chemistryteacher and then I did AP
Physics and then I had anotherAP Chemistry teacher and then I
did AP Environmental Science.

(06:49):
But I developed this APEnvironmental Science class for
students across North Carolinaand I was just somewhat of, like
you know, early in the state ofdoing that and so went to EDC,
loved it but also felt likethere was more I wanted to do.
But also felt like there wasmore I wanted to do.
So I found my way from there tothe Broad Institute of MIT and
Harvard running educationalprograms for young people and

(07:14):
then literally got another jobof my dreams, which was being
executive director of the Officeof Engineering Outreach
Programs at MIT.
I did it for eight years.
It's now the MITE's office and Ijust remember clearly feeling
like I was on the other side ofwhat the classroom like.
When I was in the classroom Iwas telling my young people, if
you're getting into NC State andit's USC and do like, what

(07:36):
about MIT?
What about here?
And they it was like I hadthree heads.
But at MIT I'm now like I'mgiving out those golden tickets
to kids around the country andhelping them see that they could
literally sit in these seatslike everyone else.
They already have it withinthem, and so I think for me that
was a pivotal time in my careerwhen I understood the impact of

(07:56):
access um like that.
That was a game changer for me,and so I did my best to grow
the office, to raise the moneyto make sure that we could serve
even more students.
But every year we got three tofour thousand students from
phenomenal young people and wewere serving 250 to 300.

(08:17):
We grew to 500.
Still a small number, and so Iwas able to get my MBA from
Sloan and became executive.

I didn't realize you had an MBA.

Shawna Young (Camelback Ve (08:29):
Yeah , from MIT, Sloan, and then I
went to Duke University and ranthe Duke TIP program and it was
the exact opposite.
It was for gifted and talentedyoung people.
We had a talent search of halfa million kids, we ran programs
for 12,000 students and then Iwas just like, wait a minute,
wait.
So when we're designingprograms for young people who

(08:53):
are coming from marginalizedcommunities or underserved
communities, it's small numbersand scarcity mindset.
When I'm here at this otherprogram, which I love, I was
identified myself when I was inmiddle school, seventh grade.
The scale is very different.
So how can there be this?

(09:15):
How can there be a way that forall communities, access is more
equitable?
And I really worked with ourteam at Duke Tip to try to open
up access to our program so that, regardless of your financial
background, wherever you live,you could be part of this
journey.
Because if you know a little bitabout the storied history of
gifted and talented programs,they were historically keeping
out black and brown young peopleand stigmatizing them as not

(09:36):
ever being able to be gifted.
And I just remember the timewhen I was the executive
director of Duke Tip and folkwere more surprised about me
being an alum, meaning that Iwas identified in seventh grade
than I was the actual executivedirector.
So it's just like you know whatI mean.
Like when you think about that.
It's like what?

(09:56):
So we still have a ways to goand how we identify talent, how
we believe folk can haveinnovative ideas, and so when I
find myself now, after being atScratch Foundation as one of the
early executive directors andthen CEO of Ada Developers
Academy, now at CamelbackVentures, I see myself like even
further down the talentdevelopment track, where I

(10:19):
literally in some cases we havegiven seed funding to people
that were in the MITES programwith me back at MIT Right.
So like just thinking about howa difference it makes to invest
in people with big ideas.

I mean it's so cool that you've gone
through almost the full, entirepipeline Like you've, you've,
you've spent time at eachjuncture.
I want to talk about whereyou've landed, at Camelback but,
just an observation.
You know I'm like.
I did not get into the giftedprogram.
Parents were both immigrants.
Mom was tenacious, she was aneducator, she also, by the way,

(10:55):
I got that same phone call whenshe found out that I wasn't
going to law school.
And she was like what are youdoing?
What is this AI thing?
Why don't you just go to lawschool?
And she's like, ok, maybe not aPhD, but let's go get a
master's.
I was like a master's is what?
Mom?
No-transcript.

(11:27):
You know, that changed mytrajectory and there's, it's
interesting because in SiliconValley, like if you, if you
listen to interviews from a lotof the super successful
companies and founders, veryoften they'll brag about how
they got bad grades.
You know, there's like there'sthis almost trend of folks who

(11:47):
were given opportunities or,almost despite their grades, um,
were able to get on thosepathways.
And you know, everybody hastheir own story and it's usually
, you know, somebody thatbelieved in them, um, but you
know, I think so much of this is, you know, just giving students
, putting them in on that trackand just telling them that like
someone believes in them is likelike eyewitnesses.

(12:09):
For myself, like that was, youknow, absolutely changed my life
and and I worry about sort ofthis, these baseline assumptions
and the hyper focus on score,on test scores as um, you know,
and I understand the challengeright because, like you know,
old child indicators, it's toughto do at scale, um, but it.

(12:30):
So you basically identified.
Well, I'm gonna actually justgo to the very front lines of
this and um.
And now you're a camelback andyou know, talking again about
silicon valley.
I mean, one of theconversations you and I had it
was a couple of days ago, Iguess was you know this, this

(12:50):
phenomenon where you, you know,in Silicon Valley, you look
around at pitch competitions andit's like always the usual
suspects, it's like you know,teams from Harvard, it's like
the you know, and they havetheir pipeline, the VCs have
their pipeline, they have theirnetworks, and you talk to folks
who have raised, you know reallysignificant dollars or been
successful, and they'll tell youwell, you know, there really

(13:11):
isn't a cheat code to how youpitch, it's who you know.
You know you have to like sortof get ushered into you know
this like secret club and allthe folks who could basically
are are are at the doors of thatclub, are hanging out in in
Palo Alto and Menlo park, um,and they're definitely not in
Durham.

Shawna Young (Camelback Vent (13:30):
No .

Um so so Camelback is basically you're.
You're not like series A,series B you're.
You're actually very often Arefolks coming in with?
Is it organizations that arethat are?
Are you investing inorganizations or like what we're
in the life cycle of, like anidea for social impact?
Are you coming in?

Yeah , good question.
Thank you for asking us, really, both right.
So we are identifying anentrepreneur who has a company,
who has an idea.
It could be for-profit,non-profit education, literally
new schools.
We invest in new schools,out-of-school time programs,
workforce development, stemprograms, but also we invest in

(14:07):
fintech, health tech and edtech,and so we give what is often
called a friends and familyround.
So $40,000 in a grant if you'rea nonprofit and a
founder-friendly safe if you'rea for-profit and early stage.
So, typically, because we'vebeen, now we're in our 10th year
, 10 year anniversary, and Istarted there 11 months ago as

(14:30):
CEO.
So our founder, aaron Walker,started Camelback 10 years ago.
He now has become launched hisown fund, ruthless for Good,
which he's raised $20 million.
He's a venture fund that he isnow deploying and so we are

(14:53):
early stage.
Um, now we like to see an mvp.
Often, like you, you have the.
It's not just back of theenvelope, you have an idea,
maybe you've tested it, um, andthen we can help you get to that
next stage.
But we receive about 600applications a year.
We have two cycles throughthose, like 300 or so each cycle
, and then we'll pick 15 a cycle.
So still, that's growth, like,literally, this year we've gone
up to 30 entrepreneurs.

(15:14):
We'll pick this year out of 600.
So still a small number.
And so we also think about howcan we be more influential in
the ecosystem.
In particular, we care aboutentrepreneurs who are solving
problems in their owncommunities and often they don't
have the financial resources todo that.
So we are gatheringphilanthropic dollars from large

(15:37):
institutions that many peopleknow that support our work and
then give that out through thegrants or through a safe and
then also do a four-monthaccelerator with them.
But we recognize that we wantto reach more than 30 people.
So now we're really looking athow can we look at our content,
how can we have gatherings likeGuardian Summit that we have
every year?

(15:57):
We hope you'll come in NewOrleans and we're based out of
New Orleans intentionally.
So I grew up in Durham, I'm inFayetteville, north Carolina,
and lived in Durham.
Camelback is based out of NewOrleans with intention.
We wanted to bring eyes to theSouth, where we have more young
people of color, where we havemore diverse communities, and

(16:17):
also ensuring that we're givingthose dollars to communities
that have been underfunded.

I think it's so powerful that you're
doing it in a place like NewOrleans.
Just, I think the importance ofbringing this conversation
about innovation and putting itproximate to people so that
they're not because, I think youknow I'm from Ohio and we do a
lot of work in Ohio and folksare, you know, they breathe a
sigh of relief when you know Iwill often open up a meeting and
say, you know they breathe thiseye of relief when you know I

(16:44):
will often open up a meeting andsay you know, our goal is not
to get your kids to move out toCalifornia.
Um, and that's kind of thenarrative.
When I was in school it waslike if you're really successful
, you'll go work at Google,you'll go to San Francisco or
you'll go to New York or Boston,um, and you know those.
Those areas have benefited fromthis massive influx of talent
from all over the country.
And that's one of the weirdthings is you, you talk to

(17:06):
different folks in the, in theVC space and the.
You know founders, a lot ofuniversity of Michigan alums, a
lot of you know folks from theMidwest, but they've gone out
and um, so, so when is the event?

it's in new Orleans this year this
year, new Orleans, June 11th and12th and we really it's a
curated space.
We hope to have 250 to 300entrepreneurs, investors,
philanthropy partners comingtogether and really talking
about what's top of mind when itcomes to investments, when it
comes to AI, when it comes totechnology and education, and I
think it's timely right now.

(17:38):
Right, there's a lot going on,but we also know when we have a
lot of change.
I feel like that's wheninnovation happens.
So we're really thinking as anorganization, not just how we
pull back, but how do we kind oflean in and ensure that we're
supporting our entrepreneursmore right now, more now than
ever.

(17:59):
And so Brain Drain is what theytalk about in terms of New
Orleans that we've got amazingpeople who have lots of talent
and they often leave.
So how can they we have themstay within the New Orleans
ecosystem.
However, as an organization, weseed funding across the country
.
So we're looking at you know,does not matter location, where

(18:19):
you're from.
A lot of our investments are inthe South, because that's where
a lot of people who are wherethey apply to for our program,
but we invest across the country, including California.

So I mean, what are some of the success
stories?
It doesn't have to be thecurrent cohort, but just sort of
like if you think back to theCamelback Ventures, yeah, like
what are what I mean?
$40,000 is you know, for afounder it could probably feels
like a lot of money, but in thecontext of, you know, the
venture capital space, it's, youknow, tiny and yet, you know, I
think people are oftensurprised when they see what

(18:53):
Camelback has been able tocultivate.
But yeah, why don't you justtalk to me?
We'll like sort of cut it up.
But yeah, why don't you justtalk through, like some of your?

Yeah , and I think I'll pull back a
little bit too and say, like, mypersonal understanding of being
a social entrepreneur, likethat's, I was executive director
, ceo, and along my journey inthe last five years, I've become
a social entrepreneur too, soit's helped me really understand
the importance of havingfinancial resources to start the
thing you want to do, right,and like, trying to cobble

(19:22):
together your own friends andfamily around is not easy at all
.
And so we have, you know,ventures for my First Class
started in 2015 and they have,you know, become, I mean, ubanks
with Braven, has become a $27million nonprofit that's serving
college students.
That's serving college studentsthe ones that may not be in the

(19:44):
schools we're used to like thetop names, but really giving
them access to careerdevelopment as a career
accelerator.
We have Damola, who's out ofAtlanta, who's building Plural
as a new venture that'sventure-backed, has been out to
several rounds, focusing on howyou use AI to help companies
make decisions around policy byhaving that data.

(20:06):
And then we have several fromAmerica on Tech to Knowledge
House, both out of New York,that are focused on really STEM
development, talent development,even for workforce, and so
we've invested in over 180founders in our 10 years and
they have incredible ideas.
And I'll tell you, what I getmost excited about is not just

(20:29):
the venture they're building,but the confidence they have in
being able to solve any problem,literally.
In my first six months I wasstill, like you know, getting to
know our founders and gettingto know the landscape, and I
just remember talking to acouple of our founders in DC and
they were just rattling offlike now how many companies they
started or how many venturesthey started, and just the

(20:52):
positive energy of confidenceand being able to solve whatever
new problem they want to seek.
And that's what I was soexcited about, for Camelback has
done, because I want to seethat in every type of community,
right like that there isn't.
There's if you happen to havethe financial resources and the
social capital that's historicalfrom your upbringing, which is

(21:15):
fine, right, that you can solveproblems.
But even if you don't have that, if you're a little black girl
from Fayetteville, northCarolina, you walk into a room
and you're like I can solve thatRight, and I think that
Camelback does that for forcommunities that typically don't
have the access.
And so we've got you know, Icalled out a few, but we've got

(21:36):
180 people who know me Well.
I'm not a favorite person, so Iwould encourage everyone to
please come check out ourfellows on our website.
We have them all there.
They literally are around thecountry and they're solving
incredible things, and I don'twant to always call them like
what problem are you solving for, because innovation is not
always a problem.
Sometimes it's like a new ideato make things very different,

(21:59):
right?
So I like to frame it that way.

And so if someone's an investor, what is
the best place for them to sortof just like get access to your
portfolio?
Obviously, your website is.
Is the event in New Orleans?
Yes, yes, we love to havepeople to come see our alums
come as well.

Yeah , so we're.
Actually our goal is to have atleast like 40 percent founders,
including our alum.
We have people who've appliedto sell Camelback, know it's
like they're still part of ourfamily, entrepreneurs who kind
of missed the wave of friendsand family.
For us, like I'm part ofCamelback too, they're all there
.
It's very much cultural rich.
Like you start with the secondline, those who know what that
is, so good music, good food,and then we really in trying to
ensure that we have investorsthere, philanthropic as well as

(22:46):
investors who are venture-backedinvestors and partners.
And what's exciting about itthis year is that Horizons from
Jobs of the Future is happeningthe same week, so we're
literally partnering them.
Just got off a call with themright before I came to see you
around how we can really curatethis week of innovation for New
Orleans and workforcedevelopment.

Yeah, it's funny because, when you know, my
husband works in venturecapital and he will often say
something that I hear fromfunders in the education space,
which is it's just so hard tofind organizations to give money
to, and it's just bizarre andit's it's.
I think people don't fullyprocess like there is there is a
sort of like demand problem onboth sides of the, or supply

(23:30):
problem, rather, on both sidesof the equation, and there's
just so much power and just likesort of because you're not just
sort of like anybody with anidea is now a camelback fellow.
It's like you're doing a lot ofvetting, due diligence, you're
doing the due diligence, and sofolks, um, you know, if you are
a funder and you're, you'rewondering like how do I sort of
invest in social impact and howdo I support diverse, uh, uh,

(23:52):
founders from all over thecountry?
I mean, there's, you know,sounds like new orleans is
probably the place.
Let's go.

Shawna Young (Camelback V (23:56):
Let's come to new orleans and I think
in particular in the ecosystem,like, we've got phenomenal
partners across the map.
Really, it's like where ischemo back space in the
ecosystem?
And, um, we are, we're not atthe earliest stage.
We have some partners likemoonshot or 4.0 that give that
like 5 000 or something likethat in support to get your idea

(24:17):
to ideation, from ideation offthe page to a pilot.
And then we sit in the spacewith fast Forward and others
where we're like OK, we have abit more capital we can provide
and support you in your ventureand hopefully help them move
along.
If you're in the nonprofit spacelike you're moving on to new
profit or new schools or aventure firm that wants to back

(24:37):
your idea, echoing Green is onesort of partnering with us along
the journey.
They have a different sort ofyou know, their model is
different, but we're all in thisspace and there's still room
for more.
And I would say I was on apanel when I was in San
Francisco last week around withVenture, and I love one of my
panelists who shared likeVenture is if you want rocket

(24:58):
fuel, if you're not looking forrocket fuel for your idea, don't
go after venture, because thatis literally what it is for
Right, and so also the reasonwhy we invest in nonprofits and
for profits is because we'reearly enough that the founder
may not really know how theywant to structure their venture,
and we often will help themmake decisions around Does it

(25:20):
make sense for them to beventure backed or not?
Does it make?

sense for them to be venture backed or not
.
Yeah, I mean, I love it becausethat is sometimes just a
foregone conclusion that, well,I have to be venture backed
because that's what successlooks like is just raising a ton
of money, and then sometimesit's like the dog that catches
the car.
It's like you raise all thismoney and now you have investors
with, like very particularideas about what they want your
outcomes to be, and now you haveto sort of deliver usually very

(25:44):
aggressive growth targets.
It is, I think it's really hardin the education space.
The, you know, growth at thescale that venture expects
requires a level ofaggressiveness that doesn't
necessarily do, doesn't dojustice to what is often
required in education, which is,you know, spending a lot of
time, you know, ensuring thatthere is actually impact and

(26:07):
outcomes.
And so, yeah, some ideas, ourideas.
One of them was an example ofthat where, you know we just
decided it was, and I probably,you know it's too bad that we
didn't you know it would havebeen.
My life would probably be verydifferent if I had an AI startup
back in 2019 when we had thisidea.
But I'm so glad that we decidedto do the nonprofit route

(26:32):
because it has allowed us tomove slowly when we need to move
slowly.
But yeah, that first check isreally tough.

Shawna Young (Camelback Ventu (26:36):
I wanted to add to that.
Yeah, absolutely so.
We are often people's firstcheck, first check ever, and so
that's significant and that iswhat our founders talk about.
So it's not just the money,it's the belief in the idea, and
that's what they don't get alot of times.

And sometimes you need someone that
is going to tell you like,actually that idea isn't good
enough.
Or here's the weak points, andmy guess is that some of the
folks that you give money to,it's not always their first time
throwing their hat in the ring.
I mean that's a good question.

Shawna Young (Camelback Ven (27:10):
Now we do have people who apply and
apply and apply, but I don'tknow for a lot of repeat
entrepreneurs as much asentrepreneurs who are still
trying to get their footingunder them.
So we give feedback to everyonewho applies if they like it.
We just want to make sure theyget the feedback, and we're
always excited about founderswho will take that feedback and

(27:32):
actually move on certainsuggestions, and so they will
often come back and then becomea fellow.

Oh, that's interesting.
So you're giving them feedback.
They go work on it tinker somemore, come back with revised
gosh.

I need to wait another year, and
so when I going back to yourpoint around venture capitalists

(28:09):
really saying, like, is thedemand there?
How do I find the next deal, orsource the next deal?
Having the twice a year cycle,I think, really helps us with
that, like really good.
For some people they mightliterally be six months away or
three months away, it's just thetiming is a bit off.
And so now, especially with AIand folks using AI in their

(28:30):
ventures, it's changing.
What is your special sauce, like, what is the thing that makes
you a unicorn if that's what youneed to be or unique, and AI
can give lots of folk a strongerfoundation of.
In the past, it was yourexpertise.
Look, I am the best scienceteacher ever.
You can't touch me when itcomes to this content.
Well, with AI and content, youcan get a lot of that.

(28:53):
So now it's like well, how muchof an executor am I in my STEM
afterschool program that I'mdeveloping, or workforce
development program I'mdeveloping, and what I like
about that.
And it doesn't mean expertise,doesn't mean anything, but I'm
saying that it's not like maybethe thing you can hang your hat
on.
Only you have to also be anoperator.

(29:13):
What I love about that is thatthat's teachable.
So now what we can do inCamelback is really hone in on
how we're helping and this iswhat we do in our fellowship how
we're helping founders shifttheir mindset and skillset from
founder to CEO.

Yes, I mean , you mentioned AI and pushing
people to think of themselves asoperators.
This is as good of a segue asever.
I mean, I want to hear yourthoughts more broadly about
artificial intelligence, but Ijust can't get it out of my head
.
When I talk to folks who are atthe front lines of, like,
developing the tech, what I keephearing is you know, it's the

(29:52):
limitations now are actuallyless and less what the AI is
capable of, and more about youknow people actually figuring
out how to apply and deploy thetools for very specific problems
.
Um, and you know, it'sinteresting because that
skillset is very often not an AItechnical skillset.
It's you know to your pointabout people who understand the

(30:15):
problems they're trying to solve, people who are coming from
communities, uh, who are, whoare, who are, you know, situated
in the communities for whomthey're trying to to support.
I mean, that feels kind of likethe missing link in terms of you
know, and I guess the questionfor you is how have you?
Let me ask two questions, andI'll start with you know, how

(30:39):
are you seeing founders using AIright now?
Is it something that are peoplecoming to you with ideas?
It's like AI for blank, or isit more about?
I have this big idea I'm goingto use AI to help me get to that
MVP or to help me do some ofthis stuff that might have
otherwise been really tough forme to do just by myself.

Yeah , that's a good question.
I think we are shifting.
Not even just what we're seeing, but we're funding is we want
it to be more unique than, likeit's an AI platform, right.
So what specific program areyou problem are you trying to
solve for using AI?
What white space are you goinginto in terms of the use of AI?
And then also, for someproblems, you don't need AI,
right.
So it's not that we're sayingall of our ventures must be AI

(31:20):
enabled, but that's what we'relooking at is enablement more
than trying to we were talkingabout this before build tools
that are going to replace humans, because most of our funding
goes to education.
How can your tool you'rebuilding actually help teachers,
educators, students in learning?
And also, how are they alignedwith diverse communities, right?

(31:41):
So, like they're going to servecommunities that we want to see
served, is is the anchor in thework, and so we're seeing, I
would say, across the board,different examples of that, and
then our investments are morespecific.
So so that's that's what I have.
That's how I would answer itthat we don't.
We've invested in about 10entrepreneurs so far.

(32:04):
We'll probably do a lot more.

We may even stand up some days, 10 AI
entrepreneurs or entrepreneurswho are in some way using AI.

In some way using AI.
Some of them are shifting.
Me being able to rile them offis hard because we've got 180,
but we also are going back andlooking at how are people
actually using it to build theirbusinesses?
And some of them have shiftedsince we first founded them
right, so it may not have evenbeen AI Venture and now they're

(32:43):
going back and saying you knowwhat to get to?
The solution's unique in youridea and your proposition in
terms of the use of AI, and thenagain, for us it's how is that
going to help communities thathave been traditionally left out
or underfunded?

Yeah, there's a tension or a balance.
There's a tension or a balance.
You know there are definitelyfunders out there who are
interested in giving money to,let's say, an AI entrepreneur,
an AI founder, an AI company.
But I think especially you knowit's been long enough that the
bar is quite high.
If you're an AI company likeyou really are going to have to
show something compelling, and Ithink people are seeing that a

(33:20):
lot of these tools are becomingcommoditized, like
differentiation, defensibility,quite hard.
But you know, I almost wonder ifI was starting this all over
again and I would say I waspitching Camelback, I feel like
I would not have an AI idea.
I would say here's my idea.
I would tell you how I'm goingto use AI to get there.
So I'm going to check that boxfor you, but I'm going to

(33:41):
actually lower the bar formyself and not try to compete
with all these other AIcompanies, because I think you
know most of the AI startupsthat I've seen really haven't
been able to answer the questionof, like you know, what
actually is coming next.
It's more just, you're almostinvesting in sort of like the
vibe of AI is going to bloweverything up.
This is like on a rocket shipand so you know, whatever,

(34:05):
whatever, like let's just, youknow, let's just get on the
rocket ship together and we'llsort of see where this pans out,
um, but if you can answer thequestion with a little bit more,
uh, fidelity, I think there's alot of, I think funders will be
like ready to actually, youknow, get beyond the um, the
ambiguity that's right now.
I think there's a lot ofambiguity around ai, that, yeah,
you know, starting to identifyas like well, I don't know, just
AI by itself is not going to bethe end all.

I agree with you and I think for
our model, that's why we alsoreally invest in the
entrepreneur, so it's afellowship, right, and really
looking at who is creative andhow they're thinking about
building their venture, solvingthe problems they want to solve.
And now, really, how would theyuse different types of tools to

(34:47):
solve it, which could includeAI, like, if you look at our
website, there's not like AIeverywhere actually, and our
team is pretty adamant.
I'm like we need to put upthere more.
They're like no, sean.
I'm like yes, no, and I get itbecause it's like it's a way to
an end right, and so we havebeen investing in AI since 2018
at least, and some of ourventures, who we invested in
early we started in 2015, mightbe using it even now.

(35:10):
Every year, we go out to ouralumni, ask them questions about
things like that and really tryto understand how they're using
new technologies to solveproblems.
But we really believe and mostinvestors do it's like the
person you're investing in.
But we really believe, and mostinvestors do, it's like the
person you're investing inBecause, hopefully, the venture

(35:31):
that you invested in goes well,but, more than anything, they're
going to learn from it andthey're going to do the next
thing too.
So we have not made it that AIis end all be all and, in
particular, I think we'reattuned to how are there biases
and models that are impactingour communities and hopefully,
if we have more people fromdiverse communities who can
build these types of ventures,that they can be more equitable

(35:52):
to our own communities.

Yeah, there's a lot of opportunity,
but also, I think, danger andperil in the scale that
education offers.
I mean, if you get into some ofthese big systems, you can
reach overnight hundreds ofthousands of students, tens of
thousands of teachers.
So the bar is quite high.
The multiples aren't very high,but the bar is quite high for a
tool, and so when we thinkabout something like algorithmic

(36:17):
bias, it's easier to deploy acustomer service tool that just
reaching customers who arebuying widgets online, but if
you're actually deliveringeducation, you're impacting
students' career trajectories.
You know, and I think that'swhy AI is actually probably
really education might be one ofthe hardest places to build an

(36:38):
AI tool right now, and that'sprobably a good thing, even
though I think there's a lot offolks who are excited about the
promise that AI can, you know,has to potentially, you know,
lower barriers.

Shawna Young (Camelback Ven (36:50):
And I think, like we've known the
bias from the beginning, likewe've known about very facial
recognition from the beginningthat was not include people of
color, so you really couldn'tsee the model that you, like
we've known and we still movefast to make the gap wider,
right, and I I think about that.

(37:10):
Even in talent development, likewe've known, there's gaps are
there, and then we stillcontinue to persist.
And so I think about how can we, in the next new wave that will
always come, camelback issituated in a place where we can
, as much as possible, seedideas so that we have these more

(37:34):
equitable horizons of folkcreating it.
Every time I see leaders in AI,I first imagine who's going to
be on the page.
Then I open my eyes up and Isee the same group of very
monolithic people, right, andeven though I know not saying
that they shouldn't be on thelist, but I know there could be

(37:55):
more people on the list.
So really shifting from likethere's only a group who might
have resources or understandingof how to do a new wave
technology to who else isprobably innovating at the same
rate but doesn't have the sameaccess or doesn't have the
connection to be noted assomeone doing it.

Yeah, I think we I don't know might've
been before we were rolling, butI was like ranting a little bit
about panels.
The other my other column withwith panels is especially in AI
conferences, there's thisphenomena of the equity panel,
and so it's like we have onepanel where we're supposed to
talk about all the differentsort of like equity issues, and

(38:39):
I really reject that.
I feel like, if you like, firstof all, equity is something
that intersects with almostevery conversation about AI,
whether it's policy, whetherit's the capabilities,
implementation and and so.
But the challenge is it'sreally hard to find people who
are building AI that are from,you know, diverse backgrounds.

(38:59):
I mean it's, it's and this is.
I think race is one of thebiggest and most prominent
things.
Gender is another, obviously,but I mean, for those who are,
you know, obviously there's thisnational conversation about DEI
and just basically thisrollback of like investments or
even just a willingness to talkabout equity as a concept.
But I feel like people forgetthat equity means a lot more

(39:21):
than just race or gender.
I mean there is and there isinequities geographically.
You know, you talk about theSouth.
I'm from the Midwest.
People from the Midwest are notrepresented at AI conferences
in Silicon Valley and it's youknow, it's a really hard problem
to solve and I think part ofwhy it's hard is you have to be
doing work like Camelback hasbeen doing, you know, in the

(39:43):
trenches for 10 years now 10years, 10 plus years.
Yeah, okay, so one of the thingsthat we hear about the promise
of AI can lower barriers toaccess.
I'm curious for your take onwhat I see as maybe one of the
most obvious examples of that.
Meaningful examples of that isI don't know, have you heard of
vibe coding?

(40:03):
That um?
Meaningful examples of that isI don't know if you heard of
vibe coding.
Vibe coding is basically youhave this idea for an app or a
product and you can use ai toolsnow, like cursor, to just
basically get to a pretty decentmvp or a prototype um without
actually knowing how to code umI mean, are you seeing, because
when you talk about you knowused to actually have ideas
where you just be back in theenvelope or back in the napkin

(40:25):
and now are you seeing folksactually being able to get
something a little bit moredefined and, you know, built
when they're coming to youbefore they even have their
first check?

Yeah , absolutely, and it matters,
I'll say, because, like, ifyou're trying to open a new
school, it's different, right,and so that's going to take more
resources.
We often look for people who,at least, are on the road to
their charter before we investin them.
Um, and this is moving so fast,right?
So we even talk about the factthat we have cycles twice a year

(40:59):
two or three years ago.
No, now we see people who havemore of MVP and able to test
before they have a significantamount of financial resource,
which is great.
So it's moving faster, I wouldsay.
And as even we think about ourcapital investment, there's the
argument of like, well, do youthen give less capital

(41:19):
investment or do you give more,or the same, because then it
goes farther, right, and sowe're seeing again, because our
communities are very diverse,we're seeing some people who,
yes, have been able to use thosetype of resources or use AI in
some way in which they can havemore of an MVP.
But often we're also looking atnow, have you tested it?
Have you done that work withstudents, and do you even know

(41:43):
that's out there?
So it's still pretty broad, Iwould say right, because we're
going to have people who areapplying from all across the
country and many of them stillare going to have a really
traditional pathway of wherethey are, and what I will say is
it's unfortunate, because thensomeone who may have be farther
along has more of an advantage,and so we're really thinking

(42:05):
about that too.

The double-edged sword of AI
literacy is that once you sortof start to accept that, okay,
we want you know it can lowerthe barrier for folks to build
and to come up with like thisamazing idea for a product.
But I think at some pointeverybody will.
It'll be kind of like, you know, google searches and then
everybody will just know how todo intuitively.

(42:28):
I think we're in that gray arearight now where, you know I
don't know that you can blamesomeone that they haven't had a
chance to use the tools becausewe're not teaching it in schools
in large part.
There really aren't easy waysfor folks.
I mean, you basically needsomeone in your life that's like
hey, like, let me just likeshow you literally, like, let me
open up my laptop.
I'm going to like show you howI use whether it's chat, gbt or
cursor, Um, and and so how areyou?

(42:51):
I mean, how do you think aboutthat?
I mean, so you, so you get nowapplications, some of them.
It's really obvious, I guess,that someone's been using AI.
This could be so much better.
But do you still give them sortof like fair shake and say,
well, you know, we're notsetting that expectation yet.
You're not sort of establishingthe bar.

Yeah , I don't think we're there yet
for sure in terms of our processand I think, as we, we're in
that middle space, like you said, that gray space, right, and so
we would not want to set a barwhere, literally, access is a
reason why someone is not have achance or an expectation.
Also, we're pretty transparent,so we would almost share out

(43:30):
here's how we're thinking aboutselection, here's what we hope
you can do or are doing, here'swhere the bar is, and so people
can like oh, let me go figureout what this bar is over here,
let me use this.
I also would say, even formyself, it's interesting.
With technology, I would sayI'm, I'm like the step typically
before the lagger.
You know I'm not the lastperson like let me just wait and
see.
And with ai, though, and usingit as a ceo, I have been pretty

(43:55):
like not the earliest, butpretty early to say what like
how can this make me even moreefficient with the work I'm
doing?
Can you give some examples?
Yeah, I mean, you know I look,I definitely for content, how
I'm drafting, how I'm messaging.
You know, even if I have anidea I'm ideating on like, ooh,

(44:16):
let me just put in this idea andsee what comes out here,
because I'm a person like you,like visionary, lots of ideas,
and we're curious around likewhat does it come up with?
If I want to start a newprogram that is, you know,
helping young people with STEMdevelopment Not that I'm doing
it like a camelback, but whatdoes it come up with and how
real is it?
Does it actually give ideasthat make sense?

(44:38):
Is there too much hallucinationin it?
So I have seen.
What I believe is that AIenabled tools and people use AI
are going to be the people whoare more efficient, possibly and
actually your job eveneducators really open up to say
how can I one have more time todo the thing we love to do teach

(45:10):
, build relationships with ourstudents, like really connect
with them.
And I just remember, as ateacher, I was so bogged down
even though I put relationshipsfirst, I was always bogged down
by the operations of being ateacher, the logistics of being
a teacher, the paperwork ofbeing a teacher, wanting to
authentically give feedback tomy students and but also give

(45:31):
them really authenticassignments.
But every time I gave them anauthentic writing assignment or
a lab assignment as a scienceteacher, I'd have literally
stacks and stacks of like thingsto grade and um and give
feedback on, and so I thinkthere's opportunity in that.
That gets me excited for theeducation and what you bring up

(45:52):
a lot when you're talking aboutthe work of um.
Aiedu is shoring up the gapbetween educators, education,
the classroom, and students andthe technology that's happening
in the world.

Yeah, but I think it's so important that
you're using AI yourself, andyou mentioned hallucinations and
I think that's an anecdote, buta really good example of why
it's so important for leaderswho aren't necessarily in the
front lines of building stillunderstand how these tools work.
Because you know what Camelbackis probably dealing with is

(46:31):
something like well you're, well, let me potential candidates
has shifted because you knowsomeone could send you like a
really great business.
You know business plan or ideaand it's like you have to press
a little bit beyond to figureout.

(46:52):
Did they just sort of likespend five minutes prompting?

Yeah , I assume your process is
already pretty robust so yeah,we well, it's a long process.
So, um, you know, that includesthe includes an interview, that
includes discussion around youridea where it's coming from, and
now we're even sort of going toinclude like really
understanding the tool, thatwhen it seems like someone's not
in the most effective way usingAI to just get their

(47:27):
application done, because itcomes off as generic versus or
you can't hear a true voice,right, so even when I write with
AI, I will draft my content, Iwill maybe use a tool just so I
can see, like how, what's theirperspective, but I'm not going
to change my voice in that um,and so I would say my team is

(47:51):
probably better at answering thequestion.
But in the process that I'vebeen through, I see authentic
applications, um, and not justin, and again, not that someone
hasn't helped with the nuancesof verbs and things like that,
but I see authentic applicationsfor the finalist and once they
get to that point, when theyshow up in the discussions, you

(48:12):
can really tell it's like theirlife's work, their passion, and
so that's what we're looking forin the application.

Yeah, and AI won't really help you with
the interview and I can't, Idon't think it won't it won't
really help you with theinterview.
But if you rely too much on AIlike I didn't actually use AI to
prep for this conversationbecause I found that the process
of me actually writing out thequestions and like thinking
about it and sort of likespending some time sort of
reading your bio was like themost important, more so than
like the actual output of likehaving like a run of show,
because at the end of the day,if I just just memorized

(48:42):
questions, I think you'd guessthat it's a little less um, I
mean, I don't think I do a greatjob, but it'd be even worse um
than uh, than what you'regetting right now, um, and I
would say, yeah, I was gonna saylike sometimes it's less
efficient, like to use ai, liketo use it to literally, like I
know.

I want this to be a bit more even
raw or emotion of you know it'sit's been.
We started this year with a bitmore even raw or emotion of you
know it's it's been.
We started this year with aterrorist attack in new Orleans.
I'm not going to use AI towrite my response to my team.
You know like this is.
This is how I want you tounderstand and know how I've

(49:21):
been.
You know, old five of ourfull-time staff are in New
Orleans.
We have community in NewOrleans and I want them to know
that we feel their pain.
I feel their pain and there'sno AI tool that can write that
for me, and so I think, also,you know time and space, but

(49:43):
there's other times when, if Ijust said, well, I'm curious
about this, I ended up spendingmore time going back and
rewriting what was shared as anoption, um, and then there's
times when it's really helpful,right, and so I think, like you
said, it's going to just be atool in the future and so, but
we're in a gray space right now.

Yeah, I mean, I feel like sometimes
people are, and I always wonderwhen you talk about, you know AI
might be able to write aslightly more eloquent probably
not, but like, let's just sayit's something like less
emotionally charged.
But even if AI could write itbetter, there will, I think, in
the near future not even thedistant future, but the near
future be more and more value,place and authenticity even at

(50:28):
the expense of having theperfect words and verbiage and
you know, poetry I think peoplewill actually be looking for
just like is this like a real,like human?
is this like a real?
Am I actually talking orhearing from a real person?
Okay, humor me a little bit,because I actually talking or
hearing from a real person.
Okay, humor me a little bit,because I think there's so

(50:58):
Camelbacks to me.
There's.
No, I have no worry about yourability to sift're.
Planning on using AI sounds likeit's okay to use it, but you're
going to have to be ready forthe interview and you better be
thinking about, like, how do Imake sure this application
doesn't come off as just youknow, ai generated Because lots
of people are.
You're not.
That's not an original idea.
There's a lot of people withthe same idea.
You have the interview process.

(51:20):
You have components of theprocess that allow you to sort
of like worry for authenticity.
Yeah, um, I I've been talking toa lot of folks in admissions
offices and so there's this bigquestion now um, how do we deal
with college applications?
And I'm curious, for your takeis you actually were on the
other side of this?
You know, you were atpost-second, in the
post-secondary space, um, and,and so you know I've heard a few

(51:43):
different takes.
Let me just let me just share,like the most recent take that
I've been that I've heard, whichis we need to share guidance,
that students are allowed to useAI they should cite it when

(52:06):
they use it, and but we justprocess designed such that we're
able to elucidate theauthenticity, because most of it
right now is what you're likefilling out a form, you write an
essay, is that it Like?
Is there like?
Obviously later on there'sinterviews, but like the first
step in the process, like youhave, like, what advice would
you give to an admissionscounselor.

It's a curious question because I'm
my daughter also.
Just um is a freshman incollege, so we literally went
through this whole process withher.
You know, a year and a half agoat best, when ai tools are
there and things like that, andI I remember for her it was, it
was not something that she waslooking to use, like it was very

(52:47):
important to her as she waswriting her essays, that it was
her voice and you know she had acollege counselor, things like
that, who helped and we read itand things like that.
But I think it was just it wasso wonderful to see how she
showed up in her essays.
I remember she was applying toHarvard was one of her schools,

(53:10):
and they ask about like whatwould your message be to your
roommate?
And I remember I just loved heressay so much because it was
just like she started by sayingI love how to really listen for
how people laugh and it tells meso much about them.
And then she went into herpersonal story a little bit and
then at the end of her essay shesaid I can't wait to hear you

(53:30):
laugh.
And I was just like, oh,there's no AI.
You know what I mean I was like, oh, and that was like the
short essay for them, right.
And then she has other essaysthat she wrote, and then she has
other essays that she wrote me,even if I had to wait till I'm
in college.
But I just, I think there isthis piece around like showing
you who you are and you know theshortcut of having AI write

(53:55):
your college essay, and I thinkoften they're like there's
things in there will say, likeyou know, we can't help you with
this, it doesn't give youprobably the outcome you're
looking for.
And so I wonder sometimes whenI'm in work, I call some things
a distraction, right, so notthat no one will do it, but I

(54:17):
wonder if that's more of adistraction than like what we
need to do.
As you say, colleges arealready doing.
It's like how do we help youngpeople know how to use a tool so
they're more effective whenthey're coming out, when they're
going to college and thingslike that?
And it's almost like socialmedia, like how do we help them
use social media in a way thatthey don't become consumed by an

(54:38):
algorithm and they can navigatethe world more effectively with
it as a tool, versus not at alloverconsumption, and so I have
a lot of hope for the generationand we, in addition to being
CEO of Camelback, like I'm aco-founder of a career
accelerator called Mosaic andI've done boot camps for young

(54:58):
people and, in particular,helping them apply for college,
and what I see is young peoplewho want to be authentic and
want to put their best footforward, and I think that
admissions counselors can seethat too.

I'm always a big believer in sort of like
trusting educators and folks whoare like have dedicated their
lives to this.
Yeah, yeah, I don't think AIcould have written your
daughter's essay and here's, Iguess, the other you know the
other the contrarian case wouldgo something like actually, you

(55:40):
know, some of the latest modelsare really good and if you were
to prompt it right, you know, Ithink maybe the first essay
you'd get would not be able toget to the level of what your
daughter wrote.
With a little bit of know-howyou could probably get to
something that's like 80% asgood.
Maybe that's not going to getyou into Harvard.
Where does your daughter?

go to school Harvard.
She's a freshman.

She loves it.
It might not get you intoHarvard, but it might get you
into Ohio State where I went.
You know it might not get youinto Harvard but it might get
you into Ohio State where I went.
You have the ability.
You use AI enough that you canprobably read something.
You probably have a good spideysense.
My wondering is how do we getcollege admissions counselors to

(56:26):
a place where they have enoughinstinct to be able to read
something?
And no, because I think in thenear future, if we're not
already there today, I think weshould pretty much assume that
in the near future, ai will getgood enough to be able to fool,
you know, a below averageadmissions.

I think they're doing that anyway
, though, right, like I thinkpeople are paying I mean,
varsity Blues was like how manyyears ago, like people who want
to skate the system or like notdo the work.
Because the question is like,if you use AI for your essays,
is that a bad thing?
Well, if you're not, if you'reusing it to spell check, if
you're using it for things likethat, but if you're literally

(57:02):
like I'm not going to do that,say you just write it for me.
That's not great, right?
And so that's already happeningbefore you know.
It's being honest, right, thereare people who are just letting
someone else do the process forthem.
Who can afford it, who canafford it?
Right, and it's not great, butit's happening.
So now what I think about isthe young people who really are

(57:27):
not doing that, and also, whatdo they need to be able to do
when they get out of college orwhen they go into the workforce?
And, for instance, we just hiredfor a manager of MarCon
marketing communications and oneof our questions was like, how
do you use AI to do your work?
Because we know, in particularwith writing, that could help
you be even more efficient.

(57:47):
And so candidates who, you know, did not use AI or did not want
to use it, were not top of ourlist.
We wanted to hire someone whocould actually give more
capacity, so one of the humanwith capacity that could help us
with, you know, this new rolethat we were crafting.

(58:07):
And so my brain goes to and Iknow it's not fully answering
the question but on the otherside of that is, these are young
people who actually are goingto need to know how to use those
tools in various jobs, not justbecause you're an AI problems
engineer or you're in, you know,software developer, but we're
asking a marketing manager howto use AI for the work you're

(58:29):
doing.

Yeah, shout out to Jeff Livingston, who
really has pushed my people.
I mean Jeff Livingston hasreally pushed the way I've
thought about this because he Imean he's really come at it from
, I think, precisely where youcame, which is suddenly
everybody's worried about kidscheating on these college
application essays and you know,some kids actually had parent

(58:51):
GPT, exactly, let alone parentswho are paying for coaches to
actually just like completelyoutsource and write it.
But I mean, I think you knowpeople were not as concerned
about these situations where,and that's where there's a lot
of disparity today.
And so I think there's thisinteresting question of, like
sure, ai probably will be anissue.
There probably are going to beexamples of kids who are getting

(59:11):
into college and they didn'twrite the essay at all, and, um,
but that problem that's beenhappening for centuries.
Small, yeah, hey, that problem'sbeen happening and and I wonder
if this, this scale of theother side of that, which is
kids who didn't have access toany support, anybody to read
their essay, now have acollaborator that they can

(59:38):
actually plug it in, and youknow what, it's probably a heck
of a lot easier to train collegeadmissions counselors to get
smarter about how they evaluate.
I guess probably what you'resaying is like set the bar.
You know, set the bar kind ofhigh authenticity, like we can
still.
We can still really have highdemands for what students are

(59:58):
putting forward If they want totry to use AI to do something
authentic.
Like you know, god be with you.
Like you know, maybe, maybeyou're going to be successful.
You might actually spend, toyour point, more time trying to
hack the AI than if you justlike try to write something
yourself, but that skill set is.
It's interesting is that itactually is a skill set that

(01:00:18):
we've been struggling with.
You'd be surprised at anorganization called the AI
Education Project, and I'm I'mI'm part of.
The issue here is like we havenot necessarily figured out or
cracked the code on how do youempower folks to use ai tools.
There's a stigma I think peopleare legitimately like I don't
feel like it's fair for me touse ai to sort of shortcut

(01:00:40):
something that I was hired to doand we have to almost be like
no, it's part of this is likesetting norms, um, and you
mentioned social media.
I'm almost curious for yourtake on like a lot of what
you're describing is is lessabout creating rules and more
about almost setting culturalnorms.
But like who?
Who are the folks that we leanon to do that norm setting for

(01:01:00):
something like whether studentsor if and how students should be
using AI, you know, for collegeapplications?

Shawna Young (Camelback Ve (01:01:06):
Yeah , I mean, and I go back to why
why is there such concern nowabout cheating, like because
it's accessible to communitiesthat didn't have access before?
Because, you know, this is notas you said, it's just not new
in terms of who had someone helpthem parent counselor, paid or

(01:01:26):
not, paid or not and so I Idon't even go to sessions
talking about cheating and AI.
I won't even walk in the room.
I'm just like.
You know, people have beencheating for years.
So at this point I think it islike one how do we help whoever
use the tools so that they'rethey're like sort of having more
output, being having morecapacity, and then in in many

(01:01:49):
cases, like I said, I think thatstudents for my daughter, for
instance, she would not even useit Like it wasn't even she
didn't, it was not good, it wasa non-starter for her.
She loves writing, she wantedto tell her story, like that
wasn't her anchor Right, and soI just think, if we err on the

(01:02:10):
side of like, not being sodistracted by that and move on
to because because again, it wasalready inequitable, people
were getting all those resources, and now that it's under the
guise of a technology, it's like, oh, and I'm not saying people
didn't care before.
I'm sure they did I'm.
I'm also like there weren'tthere weren't as many sessions

(01:02:33):
about it I never saw a sessionon it actually, so so it's like
it's accessible and, um, maybeit is around the how and then
like, but literally three yearsafter or less, you're going to
be asking those same students touse AI to get a job in their
job.
So I'm hoping there's otherways in which counselors college

(01:02:56):
counselors can really look atwhat is it that you want to
assess or know and how importantis the college essay in the
process, maybe even steppingback completely and thinking
about a different way.
What are you trying to solvewith the college essay?

Alex Kotran (aiEDU) (01:03:13):
Oh yeah.

Shawna Young (Camelback Ven (01:03:13):
And I think about, like what
happened in with COVID.
Like what happened in COVID,you couldn't take the SAT or ACT
or the subject test Right.
So then you had to really thinkwell, how do we know outside of
a test or an assessment, well,how do we get at the same end of
a test or an assessment, how dowe get at the same end?

(01:03:34):
And so what came out of that is, at the end of the day, the
subject-based tests for SATdon't exist anymore, because you
know what I mean Like we stillcan get to the same end in a
different way, even though theother tests have come back.
So I think it's I would pull updifferently and say what are
you trying to get at?
And we do, for instance, withour job applications.
We do videos also.
Like we do a video interview,one-way video, and have people

(01:03:55):
you know just tell two minutes,why are you interested in
Camelback?
Why do you want to work here?
What do you want to do here?

That's amazing how early in the process
are they submitting the video?

Shawna Young (Camelback V (01:04:03):
First round.

Really.

Yeah , video, and so there's ways in
which, again, like, have themtalk about it.
You know, like, what's yourpassion, what is it and I

(01:04:25):
understand there's differentaccess issues and things like
that but I would also kind ofpush a tune what it is you want
to ask about, so that it's nottaking up one a lot of time.
So the student is feeling likeI'm going to use AI instead of
write it and you can get someauthenticity in like the process
.
Like though and they may bealready thinking of this already

(01:04:46):
I have not deepened admissions.
When I was at MIT and Duke youknow it was before I had the AI
boom I mean, I think it'sscattered.
I have not deepened admissionswhen I was at MIT and Duke.
You know it was before I hadthe boom.

I mean I think it's scattered.
I mean there's, folks aredefinitely talking about it.
I actually was invited topresent to.
It was like the NationalAssociation of College
Counselors and they invited meto.
They wanted they wanted it tobe a session about how they can
use AI to help them inadmissions and I was like I'm
actually not going to talk aboutthat because you probably
shouldn't even be using it thatmuch to screen candidates.

(01:05:15):
If I'm being honest, I was likeI want to talk more about you
know what this is going to meanfor.
You know college and careerpathways and sort of your role
there.
But I like this.
I like this challenge of youknow if cheating is an issue
like, rather than focus on likethe students as sort of like the
malicious actors, rather shiftthe lens and say what are the

(01:05:36):
roles of educators, in sort ofyou know getting smarter about
how we evaluate students, all goto school and become AI experts
to figure this out.
But it's like small things,that's just thoughtful.
Like a two minute video.
I uh, my people team is goingto definitely hear get a, get a

(01:05:56):
question about that, like hey,should we um cause?
That's actually the advice thatwe.
We did it.
We did a session on cheating atthe at the Anaheim summit, but
the session was all about nothow do you catch kids cheating,
but like how do you catch kidscheating, but like how do you
adapt your classroom practices,and it was, like you know, using
more time in the classroom andhaving students debate and

(01:06:18):
present and teachers willsometimes say, well, yeah, but
that's my in-classroom time.
Like you know, I what do I?
What do I do out of theclassroom?
And, yeah, record a video,seems.

Yeah , the flip, the classroom model.
Or like it's a curious problemto be challenged by Right Like,
because that doesn't happen alot in education.
It's not just like how do youcatch a cheater.
It's like how can I reinventhow I teach?
I keep kids engaged in the wakeof technology being in the room

(01:06:47):
, like OK, this is thetechnology we have, how do we
teach now?
So the kids get excited aboutit?
I think it's more reason to use, like you know, um,
inquiry-based learning.
Or just like I for a scienceteacher, I think about labs.
I get excited about labs.
Like okay, great, so do I wantto give a whole bunch of lab
report assignments that peoplegonna go?
Do you say I had to write themall up?

(01:07:09):
Or do I want to have morehands-on activities and
opportunities and have, likeyou're going to write your
observations right now whileyou're in the room and tell me
what you got?
You know that kind of thing.

Yeah, the in-classroom time is now more
valuable than ever.
So we're both actually workingon a very similar challenge,
which is how do you because Ithink that the answer that a lot
of folks will tell you and Iknow this because we've actually
been doing this work right howdo you sort of build ai,
literacy, uh, and sort of likethose skills amongst the the

(01:07:44):
educators who are?
You know, they're really wellintentioned, uh, they just feel
like they don't have the time orthe confidence to engage.
So we can talk about educatorsand folks in K-12, but I'm
curious if there's any analogsthat we can pull from how
Camelback has thought about it.
You have this event coming upin New Orleans.
What I've heard from you is alot of this is going to be all

(01:08:04):
about knowledge transfer andfolks getting the chance to
learn, not just from otherentrepreneurs, but, like learn
from the field and what's comingdown the pipe from you know.
A technology standpoint, Likewhat lessons have you learned in
terms of the best way to sortof build confidence in people
who don't necessarily have, likeyou know, all the different
expertise that they need as aCEO?

Yeah .

And then I'll try to see if there's any
connection points.

Yeah , yeah, a few thoughts from that
and I'll try to see if there'sany connection points.
Yeah, yeah, a few thoughts fromthat.
Well, I would say, in general,for people to want to go into an
area, what we've learned intalent development is that you
have to have confidence,knowledge and like, desire,
interest, right, and so what canyou teach?
And so I think for us atCamelback, we can teach more

(01:08:46):
content.
We can help you really changefrom you have an innovative idea
, but now you have to hire ateam, you've got to raise money,
you got to write a budget, yougot to manage a budget.
All those things are what makesyou really successful in your
venture, and so we spend time onyour not just your business
plan, but really how you show upas now a CEO, and we I believe

(01:09:10):
that's teachable, and I thinkalso how you show up is
different.
The enthusiasm I might have asan extroverted person is
different than someone who'svery as our founder, look very
cerebral and will like bethoughtful in his thinking and
then share his thoughts.
Both can make you successful asa person.
It's just who, how you show upin the space, and so I would say
that's one thing that we reallyfocus on within Camelback and I

(01:09:32):
also.
I do think capital matters.
I do think people havingfinancial resources helps them
feel confident in being able todo something and having a
community around them of peoplewho have a similar kind of lived
experience that are also goingthrough that, so not isolated
and as well.
We also do paid coaching, so werecognize that you have to have

(01:09:55):
someone who's constantlychecking in with you as you're
building.
And as a person, again, who wasa social entrepreneur, I paid
for that.
I literally have paid people tohelp me to launch something,
because I'm like I'm ideating somuch I'm not going from zero to
one, I'm just sitting at zeroto 0.5.
Right, and so that's what we'velearned is important.
But I wanted to go back to yourpoint around educators and

(01:10:16):
remembering what that was likein the classroom and then
becoming a Kenan fellow where Igot two things time and money
and a mentor three things, right.
So, like the summertime where Iusually would have to go get
another job because I needfinancial resources, I was
literally paid for a fellowshipto create and design a project

(01:10:37):
that could not only be used inmy classroom but across the
state of North Carolina, and soI remember that so vividly,
because I also had time to,literally that summer, just like
learn and see what was out onthe Internet and how it can
integrate into my classroom, andso I do think educators just
need time.

(01:10:57):
You can give them lots ofworkshops and everything, but
they need time.
They need time to sit with thecontent and have conversations,
and many educators have theirown learning process.
It's not just like oh, I have ateacher workday, let me get a
big notebook and I just got todrill it in my head and I'm

(01:11:17):
going to go do whatever.
So ways in which we can createthat, and I would say it's very
similar to entrepreneurs andfounders, because you often will
get caught up into what stageyou are in trying to launch your
business and not how do youtake a moment and think
strategically around, what'sneeded or not?
We see with entrepreneurs thatoften there are areas that

(01:11:39):
become pitfalls for them, andthat includes hiring.
It's raising money, but it'shiring, and hiring is critical
when you have limited resources,and so we spend time on how you
really not just hire and builda team, but build a culture, and
what is it that's going to be abarrier for you as you are

(01:11:59):
forming your business and yourventure.
So I'm not sure if I answeredthe question.

I'm just reflecting.
Yeah, one of the cruel ironiesof being a founder is spending
the money is actually harderthan raising it.
It doesn't feel like that whenyou're on the other side of
raising the funds, but that hasdefinitely been my experience.
Hiring is by far the mostdifficult thing that I've had to
learn and also the mostleveraged thing.
This is interesting,interesting, right like the.

(01:12:26):
We're not going to get teachersto be ai literate through a
workshop.
Um, and what you're describingis really almost a much more
holistic way of like how, howdoes a school orient itself
towards celebratingexperimentation and innovation?

(01:12:47):
Um, are there, I mean, arethere any schools or schools, or
is anybody doing this reallywell that we could learn from?
Oh, that's such a good question.
I don't know.

Shawna Young (Camelback Ven (01:12:58):
You may have even better because
you're in school so much, and Iknow, even like we fund charter
schools and we have severalacross the country, and I think
there is a piece of like whereare they now in their AI journey
, like what may, and how can wesupport them in that, as well as
our ventures?
And so, again, I started 11months ago.

(01:13:18):
So a lot of what we're doingright now is going back and
having conversations with ourfounders and just understanding
how are they doing?
How is that seed funding?
That may have been literally 10years ago to just six months
ago.
How has it been supportive andhelpful for them?
And then, really, what we'rebuilding out right now is
because, as an organization, wewant to be more than our

(01:13:40):
fellowship.
How are we with you along thelong journey, the arc of a
social entrepreneur, which Ibelieve is at least 10 years?
And then, when you hit that 10year mark, what are the plans?
Right, because we we don't wantsocial entrepreneurs to sort of
exit just then, but in somecases there needs to be
succession planning for theventure you have and how you do

(01:14:02):
that well, or how are youthinking about the next stage of
your own venture?
And so I don't have exactexamples for schools, but I
would love to hear the ones youhave and always come back for
another conversation aroundventures that are centered for a
camelback, that are AIinfluenced as well as anchored.

Yeah, well, we can talk after this about
some of the examples that I have, because I want to spend more
time hearing from you.
I think this idea of community,though, is actually really at
the core.
The broad answer to yourquestion is we do workshops, we
do a lot of PD, but what hasreal staying power is where you
actually do sort of longer formprofessional learning,
communities and fellowships andcohorts, because you know, you

(01:14:51):
know, in a perfect worldteachers will have more time,
they'll have more resources,they'll be paid to go and sort
of do learning that's aligned totheir specific needs.
That's generally not a realityin most of the schools certain
schools that we do work in, butyou know mail back doesn't have
a huge budget.
I mean, you're not this is notyou're not really sort of like
talking down to educators.
You know, know, from the stoopof like, you know like there are

(01:15:12):
billion dollar plus foundationswhere you know maybe the answer
for them is just like money tosupport teachers.
But you've built community, andreally big community, with you
know relatively scrappy andsmall amount of funding, and so
I think there's, you know, ifCamelback is able to do it in
the domain where you've built.
I feel like you know schoolscan do things like give teachers

(01:15:33):
a chance to share and celebratethem, for, you know, trying and
you know, even failing withsomething, and just sort of like
creating a culture within thedistrict of you know that sort
of entices teachers to sort of,like you know, take risks.

Yeah , I agree, and I think summer is
an opportune time because forthere to be more thinking and
creating for teachers.
And that's why I loved aboutthe Kenan Fellowship, because it
wasn't.
We are tired as teachers.
We are tired At the summertime,we were like we just want to
rest.
But after you get that moment,I think there is this desire to

(01:16:08):
have enriched depth of learningfor yourself as you're going
back in the classroom.
And so I don't remember when Iwas with the Keenan Fellowship,
feeling overly tired, I feltrefreshed because it wasn't
going to teach summer school,something a little bit different
.
And I would say, for Camelback,we build community from the very
beginning.
So we start with an in-personwelcome week, which is would say
for CamelBag, we buildcommunity from the very

(01:16:30):
beginning, so we start with anin-person welcome week, which is
really important for us, and webring all of our fellows
together and we bring many ofour team members together with
them and take them through, justlike it's interesting.
The first day is not like letme just, you know, sort of give
you 10 hours of content.
It's tell your story, you tellyour story, I'm going to tell my

(01:16:54):
story, we're going to all ofour stories and you can share
whatever you want about yourstory, and it's often anchored
in your personal journey andit's often emotional.
It's often like, just authentic, it's always authentic.
And how does that relate towhat you're building now and so?
And then we get into the secondand third day around.

(01:17:16):
Okay, then here's how you'regoing to get this work done
right.
And then we have virtualsessions for up to four months
and then we have anotherin-person little closing week
where we bring folk backtogether and talk about what.
How are you going to share yourstory, your pitch, whatever it
is, with the external world?
And they have, they are afamily, like many of our cohorts

(01:17:38):
.
They they still are incommunication with each other
and know what's going on witheach other, and so that's that's
what I love about how weapproach it.
And I think what we're thinkingabout is, again, how can we
share more of that with moresocial entrepreneurs?
Beyond the fellowship that weknow need community.
And even when I've talked tofunders around like, how can we

(01:18:01):
curate a circle of folk who areventure funds or philanthropic,
and they're like, ok, great, youknow, love to see your, your
founders, all this stuff they'relike, but that community sounds
really, really good.
I would love to be in acommunity with other venture
funds or other philanthropicpartners that are funding this

(01:18:22):
work, and so I think there'ssomething real there I think
there's definitely somethingreal and we've.

You know it's funny because funders have
even come to us for the samething.
They're like well, we weretrying to learn more about how
to deal with this AI thing andrather than just sort of give
them specific answers, we sortof just said let's bring you
together and you need to hearfrom not just other funders but
also from the practitioners andhear the problems of practice.
We actually have somethingcoming up in like two weeks at

(01:18:50):
Lone Rock and that is astructure.
It's basically, you know,anchored on problems of practice
.
But the methodology youdescribe, you know this is, I
see echoes of it in our approachto AI literacy and you know we
have a big contrast.
I mean, there's certain folkswho you know their AI workshops

(01:19:10):
are sort of like dive right intosort of like the prompt
engineering and like how to usethe tools we actually start with
, like your why andunderstanding the context of AI
and all the different ways it'sgoing to impact your students
and society and the economy atlarge, and sort of zooming out
beyond, just sort of like thisis a tool that you can use, um,

(01:19:30):
and you know, some people get itand it clicks and others.
I think they're like they'relooking for something that's a
little bit more turnkey um, I'm,but I'm, I'm, I'm sort of uh,
uh, you're, you're, you'rebuilding a lot of confidence in
me, that like it's actuallyreally worthwhile with teachers
to invest that time and energyfor them to sort of have the

(01:19:51):
context before diving right intogetting there.
You know, having them roll uptheir sleeves because there's
just because not every teacheris going to be thinking about
artificial intelligence in thesame way.
And it's, I think, almost theway you describe your, you know
your founders, where some ofthem they're actually building
AI companies.
Some of them are just using AIin the background and you're not

(01:20:12):
dictating to them, you're notsetting sort of like specific
criteria, you're sort of lettingthem sort of figure it out for
themselves.

Yeah , yeah, I think people want to
be seen.
They want to.
You know, like, as a teacher,you have a lot of autonomy in
your classroom and also a lot ofworkload.
So really understanding one howwe could help you with workload
, but also how can we help you,help your, your students, be

(01:20:40):
successful in what's next, andthat is that's the number one
goal for a teacher.
That's why you're in theclassroom, and so I.
Often there's just such a gapbetween, like, what's happening
in the world when it comes totechnology and what they have
access to, and so for me, Iremember it's like I just have
to focus on problem solving,like, if I, if I help you learn

(01:21:00):
how to solve problems, thenyou're going to be able to you
know, just, you know you'regoing to be successful uh, or
decipher certain information.
That's where I anchored on, andso now I think it's helping
teachers.
See, hey, regardless of thetool, here's what young people
need.
You know that already.
Now let's talk about how AIintegrates into that, and that

(01:21:28):
might also reduce the somewhatnervousness.

if it's there, yeah, I mean there's a,
there's a lot on their plates.

Yeah .

So, and you can't solve all of it.
And so sometimes it's actuallyjust creating space for them to
sort of share that.
That's sort of what theircontext is.

Yeah .

Um, so pretty broad cross section of
people that could be listeningto this.
I want to hone in on forsomeone who's a potential
founder.
Maybe they're a founder, maybethey have an idea, or they want
to have an idea.
What advice do you have forthem?
I mean, they obviously they'regoing to go to your website, but
now they have a chance to heardirectly from you.
What advice would you give tosomebody who approaches you and

(01:22:04):
says, hey, I want to be aCamelback fellow?

Yeah , thank you for asking.
I mean, I think one.
It is good to look at ourwebsite and I would say that
we're focused on education andtechnology.
So is there alignment with yourinterests?
So education, from starting anew school to an after school
program or workforce development, stem development program, and
then also ed tech, fintech andhealth tech, so something in

(01:22:31):
those areas.
And you're at a space whereyou're like you've ideated
enough that you have a thing,you know, you have an idea, you
have an MVP, you've tested somethings out and you're really
looking for, obviously, capital,but also an experience, right?
So for some people, they wantcapital, investment, but not
necessarily the experience ofthe four months and that it all

(01:22:53):
comes together.
And then also, I would sayyou're passionate about the
problem you're solving for orthe thing you want to create, an
event, and it's aligned withcommunities that are that don't
typically have a lot ofresources and access, and so we
really are focused on providingthis early stage funding or

(01:23:15):
friends and family round toentrepreneurs from communities
that have been underfunded andthat are serving, are developing
solutions and innovations forthose same communities.
So you have a lived experiencethat's aligned with what you're
solving for.
And we name that because thatis the gap.

(01:23:35):
Like we're doing this work tofill a gap, not just to be
another player in a space.
When we look at the ecosystem,there's a group of folk who have
amazing ideas and no resourcesor community or content to make
them realize.
And it came from the livedexperience of our founder, aaron

(01:23:56):
Walker.
He had two other ventures thatwere great ideas that didn't
have the components needed tomake it as successful as he
wanted to be.
He literally found a camelbackas a solution for the problem
that he lived as a socialentrepreneur, and so, 10 years
later, 180 founders havebenefited from that, and so we

(01:24:17):
will be opening our applicationthis spring actually in March
and we'd love to see moreapplications.
We also have a call to actionfor those who want to support
our work, so that could bephilanthropic partners or even
venture funds who are interestedin partnering with us as we
support our entrepreneurs.
Usually we get 200 or 300applications every cycle and we

(01:24:41):
really want to be a voice.
And what does it mean tosupport entrepreneurs who
typically don't have access tocapital, content and community?

Tony Young thanks again for coming.

Shawna Young (Camelback V (01:24:56):
Thank you, Alex.

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