In our culture, perfectionism is considered a valiant weakness. And, it is worn as a badge of honor. Saying that you are a perfectionist implies that you are constantly working to better yourself and your project. You unrelentingly strive for the best possible result. You work so hard that it might require others to step in and say, “This is good enough.” It’s a valuable vice in the workspace.
Or…so we thought.
According to professor of psychology and leading expert on perfectionism, Dr. Thomas Curran, perfectionism is more a culturally accelerated poison than its shiny exterior lets on. Whether we like it or not, we will all stumble, fall, and fail at some point in our lives. To deal with this reality requires breaking out of the “perfection trap.”
Topics:
- Defining "perfectionism" and its poisonous nature
- How Western cultures amplify perfectionism
- Origins of perfectionism
- Perfectionism as a worldview
- Dealing with questions of worth and identity as a perfectionist
- How to escape the "perfection trap"
- "What books have had an impact on you?"
- "What advice do you have for teenagers?"
Dr. Thomas Curran is a professor of psychology at the London School of Economics and author of a landmark study that the BBC hailed as “the first to compare perfectionism across generations.” His TED talk on perfectionism has received more than three million views. His research has been featured in media ranging from the Harvard Business Review to New Scientist to CNN and he has appeared on numerous television and radio programs. He is the author of The Perfection Trap.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
In our culture, perfectionism is considered a
valiant weakness and it is wornas a badge of honor.
Saying that you are aperfectionist implies that you
are constantly working to betteryourself and your projects.
You unrelentingly strive forthe best possible results.
You work so hard that it mightrequire others to step in and
say that's good enough.
It's a valuable vice in theworkspace, or so we thought.
(00:32):
According to psychologist andleading expert on perfectionism,
dr Thomas Curran, perfectionismis more a culturally
accelerated poison than itsshining exterior.
Lets on.
Whether we like it or not, wewill all stumble, fall and fail
at some point in our lives.
To deal with this realityrequires breaking out of the
perfection trap.
This is the Aiming for the Moonpodcast and I'm your host,
(00:55):
taylor Bledsoe.
On this podcast I interviewinteresting people from a
teenage perspective.
If you like what you hear today, please rate the podcast and
subscribe.
You can follow us at Aiming atthe Number 4 Moon on all the
social medias to stay up to dateon podcast news and episodes.
Check out the episode notes forDr Curran's full bio and links
to our websiteAimingForTheMooncom, as well as
(01:17):
the podcast sub-stack Lessonsfrom Interesting People.
Alright with that.
Sit back, relax and listen in.
Thanks again to Paxton Page forthis incredible music.
Alright, welcome Dr Curran tothe interview.
(01:37):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, so you recently published the book the
Perfection Trap and Racing thePower of Good Enough, and it's
an exploration of why ourculture is obsessed with
perfection and then what weshould do about it, where we
should really be investing ouridentities in.
So, to start off, what is yourdefinition really of perfection?
Because I'm sure we all haveour ideas of what it means, but
when you talk about it, whatexactly are you meaning?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So perfectionism has two core elements.
The first is, I guess, what wewould associate with
perfectionist people, that'shigh goals, excessive goals,
high standards.
But it's fused to a secondelement that we often overlook
and that's harsh and unrelentingself-criticism when we haven't
met those high standards.
(02:24):
And the reason whyperfectionists are so
self-critical and the reason whyself-criticism is such an
important component toperfectionism is because, at
root, perfectionism comes from akind of deficit, thinking that
I'm not good enough, I'm notperfect enough and I must go
about the world trying toconceal those imperfections from
other people.
And the moment they're revealed, the moment I haven't hit those
(02:44):
perfect standards I have formyself, then I'm extremely and
harshly punitive about thosemissed expectations, because
they say something about thatimperfect self that I'm trying
to hide.
So, yes, it's high standards,it's self-criticism, but it
comes from a sense of deficit.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It's almost like this form of works-righteousness
that I kind of got the elementof and it's also you talk about.
It's very much accelerated andmultiplied by the culture in
which we live, the overworkingand the overconsumption and just
the always advertising of theperfect people on the billboards
.
Could you talk a bit about that?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Sure, yeah.
So perfection really is allaround us and I think these days
we radiate perfectionism as acollective, and we know that
because my research has shownthat perfectionism is on the
rise.
Because the world radiateperfectionism, we expect it to
be perfect.
All the time, advertising tellsus that we're just one product
(03:40):
away from having the perfectlife and lifestyle.
It's the same in school andcollege that we just need to
apply ourselves, work, reallyhave excellence, and that will
gain us access to the perfectjob and life and lifestyle.
It's the same when we enterinto the workforce and we had to
grind and hustle in order toreach the top.
And also our parents, too,understand this.
(04:02):
They've internalised these samestandards and they project them
down to us as well by expectingus to do more, excel and
achieve, because those areimportant prerequisites of a
good college education and,obviously, a good job.
So everything and all around usreally is applying excessively
high standards and we'reinternalising those excessively
high standards as perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And why is that a problem, exactly?
Of course you have all of thepeople who have ever been
successful.
They seem to say perfectionismis one of my fatal flaws, but it
got me into where I am.
I might have my bad self imagepropelled me to now be seen as a
great person by you.
So of course you have all theinnovators.
You have celebrities, and thenanyone you name has probably
(04:46):
some line about that out there.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I think there's definitely a conventional
wisdom, which is propagated bycelebrity culture, that
amplifies the unicorn achieversto 0.01%, who tell us that they
got there because of theirperfectionism.
But what's really interestingis, if you look at the data, we
find a very weak relationshipbetween perfectionism and
(05:11):
performance.
So, even though we're told thatperfectionism is what has
lifted people above others toreach the very top, when we go
into the lab and we do ourexperiments, those relationships
don't hold any water.
Now, why is that?
There's two reasons.
The first is thatperfectionists work hard, but
they work too hard and so theyburn out, and that's not
conducive to performance.
(05:31):
But also, importantly,perfectionists are world-class
self-sabotages.
So the moment things start toget tough and they encounter
some setback or challenge, whatthey tend to do is withhold
their efforts, because you can'tfail at something you didn't
try, and failure is so intentlyemotional for the perfectionist.
They feel self-conscious and alot of shame when they encounter
(05:53):
failure, and so they're goingto do all they can to avoid
those emotions, because theyhave a massive drag on our sense
of self and our well-being.
So perfectionists procrastinate.
They also burn out, which iswhy they don't perform to a
higher standard as we mightexpect.
So why do we then still thinkthat perfectionism is this kind
(06:14):
of lionized quality?
Well, it goes back to that ideathat we see it in these high
achievers and we think that'swhat takes to be successful.
But the reason we think that issomething called survivor bias.
So the reason we thinkperfectionism is linked to high
achievers is because you'reseeing high achievers but what
we're not seeing is what's goingon underneath those high
achievers, that's to say, therest of us who are doing exactly
(06:36):
what those high achievers aredoing and still not finding
ourselves on that winners podium.
And when we look at thoseindividuals, when we look at
what happens to perfectionists,the people when they encounter
failure, we see something that'svery different.
You get a lot of mental stressand you also don't see them
performing to the standard thatyou might expect.
So I guess it's this idea ifyou have a lot of all this pain
(06:57):
but for the no real gain, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So a very bad reversal of the common saying.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So what would you say to young, ambitious people who
are kind of looking out theworld and it seems to favor a
perfectionist, or at least thesystem seems to say, okay, be a
perfectionist, something likethat.
Do you have words of advice topeople who are looking at the
world?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, try not to get sucked into that.
And it's difficult because, asI said, perfectionism and
perfectionistic thinking is allaround us.
We see perfection all around us.
We think that's going to be thesecret to success.
Try not to slip into that typeof thinking.
There's nothing wrong withbeing ambitious.
There's nothing wanting to dowell.
Conscientiousness, particulardiligence, perseverance all
(07:39):
these things are really reallyhealthy ways to strive.
They come from a very activeand optimistic sense of I want
to do better, I want to improveand I want to grow.
However, they don't come withthat emotional baggage that
perfectionism comes with.
But when things don't go well,when we encounter setbacks, when
we failed, that we don'tinstantly turn in on ourselves
(08:02):
and feel miserable about thoseexperiences, that we can use
them in a positive way to helpus move forward, and that is the
key difference.
So try not to fall into thetrap of perfectionism and trying
to be perfect, even though it'svery live at the moment.
Try to find healthy ways tostrive and where you can embrace
the jagged path of life.
(08:25):
Setbacks, failures, things notgoing quite to plan these are
natural, inevitable parts ofyour life journey.
They're going to happen.
Embrace them and try to keepmoving forward, and I think
that's the most important lesson.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So it's basically everyone's going to have these
failures, but instead of justkind of dogging on yourself and
accepting the shame or whateverthat comes with, maybe failure
that's kind of self-inflictedshame, going with it more, and
is it letting those failuresinform your future decisions, or
is that a good way of thinkingabout it, I think?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
it's just letting it in to our lives as a very
important and joyous reminder ofwhat it means to be a human
being.
We're told in modern societythat we've got to push past
those humanistic imperfectionsand frailties and shortcomings
(09:22):
for some kind of perfect outcome.
But actually that'sdisconnecting us from who we
really are, like the imperfect,flawed person that each and
every one of us is, and I thinkit's trying to almost reconnect
ourselves to ourselves by sayingokay, you know we're gonna fail
, we're gonna hit shortcomings.
Nobody is perfect or could everbe made perfect and that's okay
.
You know, I can sit withfailure comfortably.
(09:44):
I can sit with anxiety and, yes, the discomfort that that
failure is gonna engender, butnevertheless I can sit there
with it, reflect on it, not needto change it, recycle it, turn
it into something else, butactually just embrace it as an
important part of my commonhumanity.
That, I think, for me, is themost powerful switch up in the
way that we approach setbacksand failures is just being able
(10:07):
to embrace them as part andparcel of life, rather than the
perfectionistic way of dealingwith them, which is to turn in
ourselves, blame ourselves,castigate ourselves and feel
even more miserable about thoseinner imperfections that, deep
down, we despise.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I'm curious because, like part of this thing, it's
great, definitely feels good asyou're, as you're experiencing
failure, as you're going aftergoals and stuff, like that Part
of the idea of always beingvaluable as a human in general.
Of course you have all theaccepting that and then allows
you to strive on longer.
But of course you have theoverthinkers like me who are
like, well, if I can neverachieve the perfection or
(10:46):
whatever, what's the point ofeven trying?
Like, what's your answer tosome of those overthinkers in
the audience?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Overthinking is a classic tell-tale sign of
somebody's perfectionistic.
I myself am perfectionistic andI also overthink all sorts of
things.
You know from whether a paperor a write is good enough, or
whether a presentation I givewas, you know, smart enough or
erudite enough or whatever.
I think for me the biggest wayto combat those kinds of
(11:14):
feelings is to reframeself-castigation to
self-kindness, self-criticisminto self-compassion.
Make sure that whenever thingsdon't go well and you're going
to have these moments in yourlife all the time, and I
remember, like you know,setbacks, values, these are kind
of very normal going to failway more than we're going to
succeed.
It's just regression to themean.
(11:35):
And so when we encounter themon the many occasions we're
going to counter those instances.
The first thing we need to dois just take a moment, reflect
and don't impulsively react byhow could you be so stupid?
What were you thinking?
But actually just try and sitwith it and be kind to yourself
and say, actually you know what.
(11:56):
Just screwed up had a badnight's sleep, didn't work out
at that time.
Maybe you know there was aquestion that wasn't something
that you had spent loads andloads of time revising, that
came up in the exam or whateverit might be.
We just have to try as hard aswe possibly can to rationalise
and be compassionate and take astep back and look at how far
(12:18):
we've come.
In this moment we do matter andwe are worth something because
we've come so far.
Each and every one of us has alitany of achievements alongside
those setbacks.
And if we can just take a stepback and see that, you know,
this is how far we've come andthis one little failure is not
an indictment on me, it doesn'timpact on my future life chances
, it doesn't say anything abouthow loved or valuable I am, but
(12:40):
actually, you know, it's oneform of, it's one outcome among
many different types of outcomesand types of tests and types of
assessments.
So you're going to experienceall through our lives, you know,
that reflection, thatself-compassion and that really,
you know, putting ourachievements in the bigger
picture of our life is so, soimportant.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Where does perfectionism kind of begin,
like?
Where did we get this idea thatwe should be perfect all the
time, or something like that?
What's the origin of it?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Oh gosh, yeah, this is a big question to unpack,
look, if you really want to getat the root of it.
Perfectionism is a response tosocietal pressure.
Now, look, that's not to saythat it's a total response to
societal pressure.
There is about 30-40 percent ofthis genetics, so we just
inherited those perfectionisttendencies and there's nothing
we can do about that.
But nevertheless, 30-40 percentleaves a lot for the
(13:36):
environment to explain.
Look, there's so much going onin modern society right now that
pushes on people'sperfectionism.
You can think of social media,for instance.
It's kind of limitless imagesand moving pictures of
perfection and perfect lives andlifestyles that everybody else
seems to be living, school andwork.
It's become way morecompetitive now to get into the
(13:57):
best colleges, and the bestcolleges are really the only
fail-safe method or fail-selfroute into the best jobs.
So we know it's reallyimportant and young people know
that.
So they are expected to workexceptionally hard to achieve
excessive standards in schoolall the time to get into the
highest colleges.
But that is also parents too.
(14:18):
Parents know that, they seethat and they're aware of that,
and they will also push youngpeople to excel because they are
also aware that they need toexcel in order to get into the
best colleges which give accessto the best jobs and the modern
workplace too, like as soon asyou graduate from college.
The pressure doesn't stop.
You've got to hustle, you'vegot to grind.
In this economy, the concept ofa career has become an alien
(14:39):
concept for young people, wherethey kind of move from gig to
gig and really their workingidentity is bound up in this
kind of idea of the grind set.
All of these pressures that arecoming from all sorts of
different directions reallyweigh on a sense that we need to
be perfect in order to get by,and I think that's why we're
seeing rising levels ofperfection.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You talk about it and you call it a worldview.
Can you explain that a littlebit?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah.
So perfectionism is really alens, I suppose, which we review
the world and interact withother people, and it's a lens
that says I'm not good enough,that I'm imperfect and deep down
, I know this, but I don't wantother people to see this.
So we'll go around the worldwith this kind of worldview that
(15:25):
says I need to be perfect andthe other people in my social
environment expect me to beperfect and they're watching me
and anytime I slip up or make amistake that they're waiting to
pounce, they're waiting withjudgment and criticism.
And so this worldview becauseit doesn't matter whether it's
real or not that's how weperceive the world.
(15:47):
However, what I'm arguing inthe book is actually it is real
that these perceptions are notjust perceptions.
They're actually kind ofrational and logical ways of
interpreting a world thatexpects us to be perfect all the
time.
So, yes, perfectionism is aworldview, but it's in response
to very real forces that areweighing on us.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
That's really interesting.
I'm sure people are wonderingisn't the feeling of inadequacy
and feeling that you shouldalways be better?
Isn't that a motivating factorin many ambitious people Like,
isn't that something that makesthem excel more?
And maybe if you hadn't felt,like I guess, writing, for
example, I want to be a writer.
So if you don't feel theinadequacy of not I'm measuring
(16:29):
up to I don't know, name MalcolmGladwell, for example.
If you want to name nonfictionwriters, okay, my writing
compared to Malcolm Gladwell isnot Malcolm Gladwell-esque.
Therefore, I should improve mywriting, something like that.
I feel like a lot of people inthe audience are probably
wondering well, isn't thatmeasuring yourself and always
wanting to be excel?
Isn't that part of being greatat something that you want to do
(16:50):
when you grow up?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
course.
Look, you know, wanting to bebeing aspirational, wanting to
do well, wanting to improve,these are all absolutely very
natural impulses.
I guess, like everybody youknow wants to master things.
You know, competence is a is anintrinsic need for people and
you see it in young infants allthe time they're trying to
(17:15):
master their surroundings andthat never really leaves us.
However, the difference betweenthat kind of approach to
striving like to mastersomething, to grow, to develop,
to learn, and perfectionism isreally in our ability to let go
when things don't go well.
It goes back to this idea thatperfectionists just don't deal
with challenges, setbacks.
And, yes, we could argue, ofcourse, that the anxiety is
(17:38):
engendered by perfectionismpushes us forward, but it's to a
certain point, right like, andit's to a point at which you
know we're burning out would becoming overwhelmed, and it's
having a heavy impact not juston our lives but the people
around us.
We know that perfectionism hasvery negative implications for
social relationships to.
So there's, there's a sensethat you know, that kind of
(18:00):
obsessive, rigid nature ofperfectionism to some extent,
yes, which helps us, but it'snot sustainable way to strive is
, you know, it's somethingthat's going to burn us out very
quickly and ultimately is goingto create weaker performance
rather than stronger performance.
And so I would encourage people, you know, don't don't lose
that fire, but don't lose thatambition and don't lose that
(18:23):
desire to improve.
Those are really reallyimportant things.
But it's about placing thosetypes of striving in the context
of a world and a life that'snot not going to be perfect,
where things are going to gowrong, and that we allow those,
those setbacks and periods ofstagnation and periods of
regression into our lives, thiskind of normal and natural parts
(18:46):
of a process of learning anddevelopment.
And I think that's if we can,if we're able to do that, we can
have just as much performance,if not more performance, but
without the, without the harshand critical features of being a
professional.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
It's interesting because it seems to be almost.
You talk about it as aworldview.
It's almost like an identityissue.
So everything about if you're aperfectionist, for example,
your world and your value ismeasured in doing everything
that you do right.
So, as you said, if you have afailure, it completely disrupts
your identity of yourself.
You're not a good personbecause you didn't do everything
right, oh no, and then it'slike an existential crisis at
(19:27):
that point.
That's part of the problem ofnot trying things.
So what's your?
You talk about this in yourbook changing kind of your
identity.
What should we root ouridentities?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
and if it is an identity issue, Well, it's about
I suppose the first thing isreally about self, except at its
broadest level.
Combating perfectionism isabout accepting ourselves and
our common humanity as imperfecthuman beings who slip up, who
make mistakes, who, yes, fell,hit setbacks and have lives that
(19:56):
don't always turn out the waywe hoped.
And that is that kind of selfacceptance, that embracing of
our fallible humanity.
Is really like taking asledgehammer to that kind of
perfectionistic thinking.
Because when we acceptourselves and all of ourselves
and all of our feelings, what weexperience in more and more
(20:17):
regularities are kind ofspontaneous joy.
You know, that spontaneous joy,just being alive, that's robbed
from us in this culture thatteaches us we should always be
more.
You know, you see it.
So you feel it like.
If you've ever, like, felt thatkind of in just passionate love
for somebody for the first time,that's when you know that
you're in a very contented placeand nothing else matters.
(20:39):
And we've all experienced that.
You see in young children allthe time, that kind of just
spontaneous joy of being alive,of all of themselves and all of
their feelings.
You know these are accessiblefeelings.
We, you know, we can.
We, you know, we can experiencemore and more of them if we're
able to just accept ourselves,and it's so hard to do that in
modern culture.
(20:59):
But if we can do that, we wecan take a sledgehammer, as I
said, to our perfectionism.
We can turn down those selfcritical features and we can
experience more and more joy inour lives.
And I think that's ourchallenge.
And, as I say, I write aboutmany different, more specific
techniques in the book, but thisidea of accepting ourselves and
our fallible humanity is a reallinchpin of my thoughts on how
(21:24):
we overcome perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So unfortunately you guys are going to have to read
about those techniques in theactual book as the interviews
draw into the clothes.
But before we end I want to askyou the last two questions that
we ask all of our guests.
The first one is what bookshave had an impact on you.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Okay, so there's a few books that have had a real
profound impact on me.
The first is the NeuroticPersonality of Our Time by Karen
Horne, who features heavily inmy book.
This was her first popularpress book and it really talked
about how personality issocially constructed and how
(22:01):
neuroses come from forces in theoutside world things like
competition and individualismthat really put a lot of
pressure on people to be perfect.
So she's had a massive impacton my thinking and that was a
breakthrough book and it's awonderful book.
The second book is DaringGreatly by Brené Brown, a
fascinating book that talksreally persuasively about those
(22:24):
pressures in the modern worldand those feelings of never
enough that come from thosepressures, and that's had a
massive impact on my ownthinking.
And the third one is the BigShort by Michael Lewis.
That was the book thatradicalized me in some ways,
reading about how the globaleconomy in 2008 was taken down
(22:45):
by greed, by this kind ofexcessive and unregulated desire
for more and more and more atthe expense of everything, and
how that desire and greed had acrushing impact on so many lives
.
So the Big Short by MichaelLewis I'm sure many people have
watched the film, but the bookis exceptional.
(23:07):
So those are the three I'drecommend.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Our last question is what advice do you have for
teenagers?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Okay, I think the biggest thing that I see in
young people because I'm aprofessor is a sense that
they're not enough and thatactually the world is very
indifferent and that they'retrying to find their place in
the world, and a sense that theydon't matter.
And I think for me there's twothings that I'd say to young
(23:37):
people that you do matter, andyou matter way more than you
think you do.
And the second thing is thatyou are enough.
The matter what you're told, nomatter how much this culture
and this economy and thissociety will tell you that you
need to do more, you need to bemore, you need to have more, you
need to work more, thatactually, in this moment, you
(23:59):
are enough.
That you live, you exist,you're breathing right now.
That means you're enough.
Just that knowledge of beingalive means you're enough.
So that's my biggest messageand I think it's a really
valuable one for young peopleright now.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Well, thank you so much, Dr Curran, for coming on
the podcast.
I enjoyed our conversationabout perfectionism, how it's
embedded throughout culture andhow that affects us and our
relationships and just ourmental health in general.
Thank you so much for coming on, thanks.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Taylor for having me.
It was great to chat.
In our culture, perfectionism is considered a
valiant weakness and it is wornas a badge of honor.
Saying that you are aperfectionist implies that you
are constantly working to betteryourself and your projects.
You unrelentingly strive forthe best possible results.
You work so hard that it mightrequire others to step in and
say that's good enough.
It's a valuable vice in theworkspace, or so we thought.
(00:32):
According to psychologist andleading expert on perfectionism,
dr Thomas Curran, perfectionismis more a culturally
accelerated poison than itsshining exterior.
Lets on.
Whether we like it or not, wewill all stumble, fall and fail
at some point in our lives.
To deal with this realityrequires breaking out of the
perfection trap.
This is the Aiming for the Moonpodcast and I'm your host,
(00:55):
taylor Bledsoe.
On this podcast I interviewinteresting people from a
teenage perspective.
If you like what you hear today, please rate the podcast and
subscribe.
You can follow us at Aiming atthe Number 4 Moon on all the
social medias to stay up to dateon podcast news and episodes.
Check out the episode notes forDr Curran's full bio and links
to our websiteAimingForTheMooncom, as well as
(01:17):
the podcast sub-stack Lessonsfrom Interesting People.
Alright with that.
Sit back, relax and listen in.
Thanks again to Paxton Page forthis incredible music.
Alright, welcome Dr Curran tothe interview.
(01:37):
Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 2 (01:39):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:41):
Yeah, so you recently published the book the
Perfection Trap and Racing thePower of Good Enough, and it's
an exploration of why ourculture is obsessed with
perfection and then what weshould do about it, where we
should really be investing ouridentities in.
So, to start off, what is yourdefinition really of perfection?
Because I'm sure we all haveour ideas of what it means, but
when you talk about it, whatexactly are you meaning?
Speaker 2 (02:04):
So perfectionism has two core elements.
The first is, I guess, what wewould associate with
perfectionist people, that'shigh goals, excessive goals,
high standards.
But it's fused to a secondelement that we often overlook
and that's harsh and unrelentingself-criticism when we haven't
met those high standards.
(02:24):
And the reason whyperfectionists are so
self-critical and the reason whyself-criticism is such an
important component toperfectionism is because, at
root, perfectionism comes from akind of deficit, thinking that
I'm not good enough, I'm notperfect enough and I must go
about the world trying toconceal those imperfections from
other people.
And the moment they're revealed, the moment I haven't hit those
(02:44):
perfect standards I have formyself, then I'm extremely and
harshly punitive about thosemissed expectations, because
they say something about thatimperfect self that I'm trying
to hide.
So, yes, it's high standards,it's self-criticism, but it
comes from a sense of deficit.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
It's almost like this form of works-righteousness
that I kind of got the elementof and it's also you talk about.
It's very much accelerated andmultiplied by the culture in
which we live, the overworkingand the overconsumption and just
the always advertising of theperfect people on the billboards
.
Could you talk a bit about that?
Speaker 2 (03:20):
Sure, yeah.
So perfection really is allaround us and I think these days
we radiate perfectionism as acollective, and we know that
because my research has shownthat perfectionism is on the
rise.
Because the world radiateperfectionism, we expect it to
be perfect.
All the time, advertising tellsus that we're just one product
(03:40):
away from having the perfectlife and lifestyle.
It's the same in school andcollege that we just need to
apply ourselves, work, reallyhave excellence, and that will
gain us access to the perfectjob and life and lifestyle.
It's the same when we enterinto the workforce and we had to
grind and hustle in order toreach the top.
And also our parents, too,understand this.
(04:02):
They've internalised these samestandards and they project them
down to us as well by expectingus to do more, excel and
achieve, because those areimportant prerequisites of a
good college education and,obviously, a good job.
So everything and all around usreally is applying excessively
high standards and we'reinternalising those excessively
high standards as perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (04:25):
And why is that a problem, exactly?
Of course you have all of thepeople who have ever been
successful.
They seem to say perfectionismis one of my fatal flaws, but it
got me into where I am.
I might have my bad self imagepropelled me to now be seen as a
great person by you.
So of course you have all theinnovators.
You have celebrities, and thenanyone you name has probably
(04:46):
some line about that out there.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Yeah, I think there's definitely a conventional
wisdom, which is propagated bycelebrity culture, that
amplifies the unicorn achieversto 0.01%, who tell us that they
got there because of theirperfectionism.
But what's really interestingis, if you look at the data, we
find a very weak relationshipbetween perfectionism and
(05:11):
performance.
So, even though we're told thatperfectionism is what has
lifted people above others toreach the very top, when we go
into the lab and we do ourexperiments, those relationships
don't hold any water.
Now, why is that?
There's two reasons.
The first is thatperfectionists work hard, but
they work too hard and so theyburn out, and that's not
conducive to performance.
(05:31):
But also, importantly,perfectionists are world-class
self-sabotages.
So the moment things start toget tough and they encounter
some setback or challenge, whatthey tend to do is withhold
their efforts, because you can'tfail at something you didn't
try, and failure is so intentlyemotional for the perfectionist.
They feel self-conscious and alot of shame when they encounter
(05:53):
failure, and so they're goingto do all they can to avoid
those emotions, because theyhave a massive drag on our sense
of self and our well-being.
So perfectionists procrastinate.
They also burn out, which iswhy they don't perform to a
higher standard as we mightexpect.
So why do we then still thinkthat perfectionism is this kind
(06:14):
of lionized quality?
Well, it goes back to that ideathat we see it in these high
achievers and we think that'swhat takes to be successful.
But the reason we think that issomething called survivor bias.
So the reason we thinkperfectionism is linked to high
achievers is because you'reseeing high achievers but what
we're not seeing is what's goingon underneath those high
achievers, that's to say, therest of us who are doing exactly
(06:36):
what those high achievers aredoing and still not finding
ourselves on that winners podium.
And when we look at thoseindividuals, when we look at
what happens to perfectionists,the people when they encounter
failure, we see something that'svery different.
You get a lot of mental stressand you also don't see them
performing to the standard thatyou might expect.
So I guess it's this idea ifyou have a lot of all this pain
(06:57):
but for the no real gain, yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
So a very bad reversal of the common saying.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:04):
So what would you say to young, ambitious people who
are kind of looking out theworld and it seems to favor a
perfectionist, or at least thesystem seems to say, okay, be a
perfectionist, something likethat.
Do you have words of advice topeople who are looking at the
world?
Speaker 2 (07:19):
Yeah, try not to get sucked into that.
And it's difficult because, asI said, perfectionism and
perfectionistic thinking is allaround us.
We see perfection all around us.
We think that's going to be thesecret to success.
Try not to slip into that typeof thinking.
There's nothing wrong withbeing ambitious.
There's nothing wanting to dowell.
Conscientiousness, particulardiligence, perseverance all
(07:39):
these things are really reallyhealthy ways to strive.
They come from a very activeand optimistic sense of I want
to do better, I want to improveand I want to grow.
However, they don't come withthat emotional baggage that
perfectionism comes with.
But when things don't go well,when we encounter setbacks, when
we failed, that we don'tinstantly turn in on ourselves
(08:02):
and feel miserable about thoseexperiences, that we can use
them in a positive way to helpus move forward, and that is the
key difference.
So try not to fall into thetrap of perfectionism and trying
to be perfect, even though it'svery live at the moment.
Try to find healthy ways tostrive and where you can embrace
the jagged path of life.
(08:25):
Setbacks, failures, things notgoing quite to plan these are
natural, inevitable parts ofyour life journey.
They're going to happen.
Embrace them and try to keepmoving forward, and I think
that's the most important lesson.
Speaker 1 (08:42):
So it's basically everyone's going to have these
failures, but instead of justkind of dogging on yourself and
accepting the shame or whateverthat comes with, maybe failure
that's kind of self-inflictedshame, going with it more, and
is it letting those failuresinform your future decisions, or
is that a good way of thinkingabout it, I think?
Speaker 2 (09:00):
it's just letting it in to our lives as a very
important and joyous reminder ofwhat it means to be a human
being.
We're told in modern societythat we've got to push past
those humanistic imperfectionsand frailties and shortcomings
(09:22):
for some kind of perfect outcome.
But actually that'sdisconnecting us from who we
really are, like the imperfect,flawed person that each and
every one of us is, and I thinkit's trying to almost reconnect
ourselves to ourselves by sayingokay, you know we're gonna fail
, we're gonna hit shortcomings.
Nobody is perfect or could everbe made perfect and that's okay
.
You know, I can sit withfailure comfortably.
(09:44):
I can sit with anxiety and, yes, the discomfort that that
failure is gonna engender, butnevertheless I can sit there
with it, reflect on it, not needto change it, recycle it, turn
it into something else, butactually just embrace it as an
important part of my commonhumanity.
That, I think, for me, is themost powerful switch up in the
way that we approach setbacksand failures is just being able
(10:07):
to embrace them as part andparcel of life, rather than the
perfectionistic way of dealingwith them, which is to turn in
ourselves, blame ourselves,castigate ourselves and feel
even more miserable about thoseinner imperfections that, deep
down, we despise.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
I'm curious because, like part of this thing, it's
great, definitely feels good asyou're, as you're experiencing
failure, as you're going aftergoals and stuff, like that Part
of the idea of always beingvaluable as a human in general.
Of course you have all theaccepting that and then allows
you to strive on longer.
But of course you have theoverthinkers like me who are
like, well, if I can neverachieve the perfection or
(10:46):
whatever, what's the point ofeven trying?
Like, what's your answer tosome of those overthinkers in
the audience?
Speaker 2 (10:52):
Overthinking is a classic tell-tale sign of
somebody's perfectionistic.
I myself am perfectionistic andI also overthink all sorts of
things.
You know from whether a paperor a write is good enough, or
whether a presentation I givewas, you know, smart enough or
erudite enough or whatever.
I think for me the biggest wayto combat those kinds of
(11:14):
feelings is to reframeself-castigation to
self-kindness, self-criticisminto self-compassion.
Make sure that whenever thingsdon't go well and you're going
to have these moments in yourlife all the time, and I
remember, like you know,setbacks, values, these are kind
of very normal going to failway more than we're going to
succeed.
It's just regression to themean.
(11:35):
And so when we encounter themon the many occasions we're
going to counter those instances.
The first thing we need to dois just take a moment, reflect
and don't impulsively react byhow could you be so stupid?
What were you thinking?
But actually just try and sitwith it and be kind to yourself
and say, actually you know what.
(11:56):
Just screwed up had a badnight's sleep, didn't work out
at that time.
Maybe you know there was aquestion that wasn't something
that you had spent loads andloads of time revising, that
came up in the exam or whateverit might be.
We just have to try as hard aswe possibly can to rationalise
and be compassionate and take astep back and look at how far
(12:18):
we've come.
In this moment we do matter andwe are worth something because
we've come so far.
Each and every one of us has alitany of achievements alongside
those setbacks.
And if we can just take a stepback and see that, you know,
this is how far we've come andthis one little failure is not
an indictment on me, it doesn'timpact on my future life chances
, it doesn't say anything abouthow loved or valuable I am, but
(12:40):
actually, you know, it's oneform of, it's one outcome among
many different types of outcomesand types of tests and types of
assessments.
So you're going to experienceall through our lives, you know,
that reflection, thatself-compassion and that really,
you know, putting ourachievements in the bigger
picture of our life is so, soimportant.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Where does perfectionism kind of begin,
like?
Where did we get this idea thatwe should be perfect all the
time, or something like that?
What's the origin of it?
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Oh gosh, yeah, this is a big question to unpack,
look, if you really want to getat the root of it.
Perfectionism is a response tosocietal pressure.
Now, look, that's not to saythat it's a total response to
societal pressure.
There is about 30-40 percent ofthis genetics, so we just
inherited those perfectionisttendencies and there's nothing
we can do about that.
But nevertheless, 30-40 percentleaves a lot for the
(13:36):
environment to explain.
Look, there's so much going onin modern society right now that
pushes on people'sperfectionism.
You can think of social media,for instance.
It's kind of limitless imagesand moving pictures of
perfection and perfect lives andlifestyles that everybody else
seems to be living, school andwork.
It's become way morecompetitive now to get into the
(13:57):
best colleges, and the bestcolleges are really the only
fail-safe method or fail-selfroute into the best jobs.
So we know it's reallyimportant and young people know
that.
So they are expected to workexceptionally hard to achieve
excessive standards in schoolall the time to get into the
highest colleges.
But that is also parents too.
(14:18):
Parents know that, they seethat and they're aware of that,
and they will also push youngpeople to excel because they are
also aware that they need toexcel in order to get into the
best colleges which give accessto the best jobs and the modern
workplace too, like as soon asyou graduate from college.
The pressure doesn't stop.
You've got to hustle, you'vegot to grind.
In this economy, the concept ofa career has become an alien
(14:39):
concept for young people, wherethey kind of move from gig to
gig and really their workingidentity is bound up in this
kind of idea of the grind set.
All of these pressures that arecoming from all sorts of
different directions reallyweigh on a sense that we need to
be perfect in order to get by,and I think that's why we're
seeing rising levels ofperfection.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
You talk about it and you call it a worldview.
Can you explain that a littlebit?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Yeah.
So perfectionism is really alens, I suppose, which we review
the world and interact withother people, and it's a lens
that says I'm not good enough,that I'm imperfect and deep down
, I know this, but I don't wantother people to see this.
So we'll go around the worldwith this kind of worldview that
(15:25):
says I need to be perfect andthe other people in my social
environment expect me to beperfect and they're watching me
and anytime I slip up or make amistake that they're waiting to
pounce, they're waiting withjudgment and criticism.
And so this worldview becauseit doesn't matter whether it's
real or not that's how weperceive the world.
(15:47):
However, what I'm arguing inthe book is actually it is real
that these perceptions are notjust perceptions.
They're actually kind ofrational and logical ways of
interpreting a world thatexpects us to be perfect all the
time.
So, yes, perfectionism is aworldview, but it's in response
to very real forces that areweighing on us.
Speaker 1 (16:09):
That's really interesting.
I'm sure people are wonderingisn't the feeling of inadequacy
and feeling that you shouldalways be better?
Isn't that a motivating factorin many ambitious people Like,
isn't that something that makesthem excel more?
And maybe if you hadn't felt,like I guess, writing, for
example, I want to be a writer.
So if you don't feel theinadequacy of not I'm measuring
(16:29):
up to I don't know, name MalcolmGladwell, for example.
If you want to name nonfictionwriters, okay, my writing
compared to Malcolm Gladwell isnot Malcolm Gladwell-esque.
Therefore, I should improve mywriting, something like that.
I feel like a lot of people inthe audience are probably
wondering well, isn't thatmeasuring yourself and always
wanting to be excel?
Isn't that part of being greatat something that you want to do
(16:50):
when you grow up?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
course.
Look, you know, wanting to bebeing aspirational, wanting to
do well, wanting to improve,these are all absolutely very
natural impulses.
I guess, like everybody youknow wants to master things.
You know, competence is a is anintrinsic need for people and
you see it in young infants allthe time they're trying to
(17:15):
master their surroundings andthat never really leaves us.
However, the difference betweenthat kind of approach to
striving like to mastersomething, to grow, to develop,
to learn, and perfectionism isreally in our ability to let go
when things don't go well.
It goes back to this idea thatperfectionists just don't deal
with challenges, setbacks.
And, yes, we could argue, ofcourse, that the anxiety is
(17:38):
engendered by perfectionismpushes us forward, but it's to a
certain point, right like, andit's to a point at which you
know we're burning out would becoming overwhelmed, and it's
having a heavy impact not juston our lives but the people
around us.
We know that perfectionism hasvery negative implications for
social relationships to.
So there's, there's a sensethat you know, that kind of
(18:00):
obsessive, rigid nature ofperfectionism to some extent,
yes, which helps us, but it'snot sustainable way to strive is
, you know, it's somethingthat's going to burn us out very
quickly and ultimately is goingto create weaker performance
rather than stronger performance.
And so I would encourage people, you know, don't don't lose
that fire, but don't lose thatambition and don't lose that
(18:23):
desire to improve.
Those are really reallyimportant things.
But it's about placing thosetypes of striving in the context
of a world and a life that'snot not going to be perfect,
where things are going to gowrong, and that we allow those,
those setbacks and periods ofstagnation and periods of
regression into our lives, thiskind of normal and natural parts
(18:46):
of a process of learning anddevelopment.
And I think that's if we can,if we're able to do that, we can
have just as much performance,if not more performance, but
without the, without the harshand critical features of being a
professional.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
It's interesting because it seems to be almost.
You talk about it as aworldview.
It's almost like an identityissue.
So everything about if you're aperfectionist, for example,
your world and your value ismeasured in doing everything
that you do right.
So, as you said, if you have afailure, it completely disrupts
your identity of yourself.
You're not a good personbecause you didn't do everything
right, oh no, and then it'slike an existential crisis at
(19:27):
that point.
That's part of the problem ofnot trying things.
So what's your?
You talk about this in yourbook changing kind of your
identity.
What should we root ouridentities?
Speaker 2 (19:36):
and if it is an identity issue, Well, it's about
I suppose the first thing isreally about self, except at its
broadest level.
Combating perfectionism isabout accepting ourselves and
our common humanity as imperfecthuman beings who slip up, who
make mistakes, who, yes, fell,hit setbacks and have lives that
(19:56):
don't always turn out the waywe hoped.
And that is that kind of selfacceptance, that embracing of
our fallible humanity.
Is really like taking asledgehammer to that kind of
perfectionistic thinking.
Because when we acceptourselves and all of ourselves
and all of our feelings, what weexperience in more and more
(20:17):
regularities are kind ofspontaneous joy.
You know, that spontaneous joy,just being alive, that's robbed
from us in this culture thatteaches us we should always be
more.
You know, you see it.
So you feel it like.
If you've ever, like, felt thatkind of in just passionate love
for somebody for the first time,that's when you know that
you're in a very contented placeand nothing else matters.
(20:39):
And we've all experienced that.
You see in young children allthe time, that kind of just
spontaneous joy of being alive,of all of themselves and all of
their feelings.
You know these are accessiblefeelings.
We, you know, we can.
We, you know, we can experiencemore and more of them if we're
able to just accept ourselves,and it's so hard to do that in
modern culture.
(20:59):
But if we can do that, we wecan take a sledgehammer, as I
said, to our perfectionism.
We can turn down those selfcritical features and we can
experience more and more joy inour lives.
And I think that's ourchallenge.
And, as I say, I write aboutmany different, more specific
techniques in the book, but thisidea of accepting ourselves and
our fallible humanity is a reallinchpin of my thoughts on how
(21:24):
we overcome perfectionism.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
So unfortunately you guys are going to have to read
about those techniques in theactual book as the interviews
draw into the clothes.
But before we end I want to askyou the last two questions that
we ask all of our guests.
The first one is what bookshave had an impact on you.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Okay, so there's a few books that have had a real
profound impact on me.
The first is the NeuroticPersonality of Our Time by Karen
Horne, who features heavily inmy book.
This was her first popularpress book and it really talked
about how personality issocially constructed and how
(22:01):
neuroses come from forces in theoutside world things like
competition and individualismthat really put a lot of
pressure on people to be perfect.
So she's had a massive impacton my thinking and that was a
breakthrough book and it's awonderful book.
The second book is DaringGreatly by Brené Brown, a
fascinating book that talksreally persuasively about those
(22:24):
pressures in the modern worldand those feelings of never
enough that come from thosepressures, and that's had a
massive impact on my ownthinking.
And the third one is the BigShort by Michael Lewis.
That was the book thatradicalized me in some ways,
reading about how the globaleconomy in 2008 was taken down
(22:45):
by greed, by this kind ofexcessive and unregulated desire
for more and more and more atthe expense of everything, and
how that desire and greed had acrushing impact on so many lives
.
So the Big Short by MichaelLewis I'm sure many people have
watched the film, but the bookis exceptional.
(23:07):
So those are the three I'drecommend.
Speaker 1 (23:09):
Our last question is what advice do you have for
teenagers?
Speaker 2 (23:13):
Okay, I think the biggest thing that I see in
young people because I'm aprofessor is a sense that
they're not enough and thatactually the world is very
indifferent and that they'retrying to find their place in
the world, and a sense that theydon't matter.
And I think for me there's twothings that I'd say to young
(23:37):
people that you do matter, andyou matter way more than you
think you do.
And the second thing is thatyou are enough.
The matter what you're told, nomatter how much this culture
and this economy and thissociety will tell you that you
need to do more, you need to bemore, you need to have more, you
need to work more, thatactually, in this moment, you
(23:59):
are enough.
That you live, you exist,you're breathing right now.
That means you're enough.
Just that knowledge of beingalive means you're enough.
So that's my biggest messageand I think it's a really
valuable one for young peopleright now.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Well, thank you so much, Dr Curran, for coming on
the podcast.
I enjoyed our conversationabout perfectionism, how it's
embedded throughout culture andhow that affects us and our
relationships and just ourmental health in general.
Thank you so much for coming on, thanks.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Taylor for having me.
It was great to chat.
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