What happens when your world crumbles? When all the things you hold dear are snatched away from you? Most of us would give up and despair. And, yet, though he awaited an unjust execution, Roman senator and philosopher Boethius penned these hopeful words:
“The world in constant change maintains a harmony. And elements keep peace whose nature is to war.”
Faced with his coming death, Boethius reflected upon his life of contemplation and philosophy, writing one of the greatest works of the medieval age on facing suffering: The Consolation of Philosophy.
In this episode, I sit down with Dr. Thomas Ward to discuss Boethius’ magnum opus and Dr. Ward’s latest book, After Stoicism: Last Words of the Last Roman Philosopher. Dr. Ward and I examine what Boethius’ Consolation of Philosophy can tell us about how to approach life in the midst of suffering.
Topics:
- Who Was Boethius and Why He Matters
- Why The Consolation of Philosophy Endured
- Lady Fortune, The Wheel, and Approachability
- Boethius’ Illness and Philosophy’s Diagnosis
- Forgetting Who We Are
- Modern Stoicism’s Appeal and Limits
- After Stoicism: Hope, God, and Joy
- Love as the Order of the Cosmos
- Eros and Caritas: What Love Means
- Daily Practices for Recollection
- How to Live Like Boethius: Suffering, Virtue, and a Transcendent Order
- "What books have had an impact on you?"
- "What advice do you have for teenagers?"
Bio:
Thomas M. Ward is Associate Professor of Philosophy at The University of Texas at Austin, in the School of Civic Leadership. He is the author of After Stoicism: Last Words of the Last Roman Philosopher (Word on Fire, 2024), which won the Catholic Media Association Book Award for History (First Place). He studied philosophy at Biola University (BA 2004) and UCLA (PhD, 2011) and theology at Oxford University (M.Phil 2006).
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:09):
What happens when your world crumbles?
When all the things you holddear are snatched away from you.
Most of us would give up indespair.
And yet, though he awaited anunjust execution, Roman senator
and philosopher Boethius pinnedthese hopeful words.
(00:29):
The world in constant changemaintains a harmony, and
elements keep peace whose natureis to war.
Faced with his coming death,Boethius reflected upon his life
of contemplation and philosophy,writing one of the greatest
works of the medieval age onfacing suffering, The
Constellation of Philosophy.
(00:52):
This is the Aiming for the MoonPodcast.
And I'm your host, TaylorBledsoe.
On this podcast, I interviewinteresting people from a
teenage perspective.
In this episode, I sit down withDr.
Thomas Ward to discuss Boethius'Magnum opus and Dr.
Ward's latest book onconstellation of philosophy.
After Stoicism, Last Words ofthe Last Roman Philosopher.
(01:15):
Dr.
Ward and I examine whatBoethius' work can tell us about
how to approach life in themidst of suffering.
Thomas M.
Ward is Associate Professor ofPhilosophy at the University of
Texas at Austin and the Schoolof Civic Leadership.
He's the author of AfterStoicism: Last Words of the Last
Roman Philosopher, which won theCatholic Media Association Book
(01:36):
Award for History.
He studied philosophy at BiolaUniversity and UCLA and theology
at Oxford University.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate the podcast and
subscribe.
You can follow us atAimingTheNumber 4 Moon on all
the socials to stay up to dateon podcast news and episodes.
Check out the episode notes forthe links to our website,
(01:58):
AimingForthemoon.com, and ourpodcast substack of lessons from
interesting people.
All right, with that, sit back,relax, and listen in.
Thanks again to Paxton Page forthis incredible music.
Thank you to the University ofTulsa Studio 151 for providing a
space to record.
And thank you as well to VictorWatts' translation of the
(02:19):
Constellation of Philosophy forproviding the quote at the
beginning of the intro.
All right, enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
All right, well, welcome, Dr.
Ward, to the interview.
Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Thanks for having me, Taylor.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
So I am very excited to dive into your book, After
Stoicism (02:35):
The Last Words of the Last Roman Philosopher, mainly
because I've been trying tofigure out a reason to talk
about Boethius on the podcastfor a number of years now.
And when your book wasrecommended to me, I was like,
this is it.
This is the moment that we candive into Boethius.
So before we begin talking aboutyour book and the fascinating
(02:57):
argument you make aboutbasically his turn from stoicism
to going beyond stoicism, who isBoethius and why should we in
the modern audience care?
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
Yeah, thanks.
It's uh we we both have a deepadmiration for that old Roman
senator.
It's too bad he's not around tocome on the show to talk about
his book, but um, he was a lateRoman senator.
He died in uh the 500s and uhfive 524, maybe 525.
(03:29):
Um, so we've just sort ofwrapped up 1500-year uh
anniversary of his death.
The reason why he's famoustoday, um even though he was he
was prominent in his own day,but the reason why he's really
well known today, um, and notjust one of many hundreds of
Roman senators from big wealthyfamilies back then, is that uh
(03:50):
he was um unjustly uh accused ofuh being a traitor, of treason,
and the Gothic uh king,Theodoric, sentenced him to
death.
And while while Boethius was onuh the sort of equivalent of
death row, you know, a sort ofhouse arrest situation where he
(04:11):
was just waiting to die, hewrote this uh amazing book of
philosophy and poetry called TheConsolation of Philosophy.
And and that book uh becameliterally a bestseller for
hundreds of years.
Um a uh 20th-century uh criticnamed C.S.
(04:33):
Lewis, uh V C.
S.
Lewis, once said that for abouta thousand years after the
writing of uh The Consolation ofPhilosophy, it would have been
virtually impossible to find aneducated person in Europe who
did not only, who not only hadread the consolation, but had
been deeply influenced by it.
(04:54):
So it's this massive book thatthat sort of secured Boethius,
Senator Boethius's legacy uhthrough through the centuries.
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
And that's kind of very interesting because if you
look at the book or you look atit on Amazon or anything, it's
not a very long book at all.
It's actually when you think oflong uh or very influential
philosophical texts, you thinkof The Republic, you think of a
lot of Aristotle's works, whichare, you know, longer works.
They look like big influentialbooks.
The constellation of philosophyis gosh, my Victor Watts
(05:25):
translation might be 175 pages,maybe 200.
Um it's not that long at all.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
Yeah, and I think that's part of the staying
power, is that not only is it umnot that long, but it's also
approachable.
You know, a lot of philosophycan be intimidating.
Um, you know, one of my favoritebooks in terms of ideas is the
Nicomuchean Ethics by Aristotle,but the writing itself is very
dry, pretty dense.
(05:53):
Um, whereas Boethius, you openit up and there's this kind of
urgency to it, there's thisemotional power, you're
immediately drawn in with thispoem about um a man in in this
desperate circumstance feelingwretched and and and full of
despair.
So it just draws you in.
And then even in the morephilosophical parts that that
(06:15):
get into like actual arguments,and there's still this kind of
approachability to it.
And sometimes that can bedeceptive.
I mean, I think um with some ofthe arguments that are in the
book, they go really deep andand really repay that sort of
really slow reading.
But you know, any any uh youknow, average um literate uh
(06:39):
adolescent, you know, highschool, college student can pick
it up and give it a fullread-through and understand
probably 80% of it, which issaying a lot for a book of
philosophy, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
A hundred percent.
Uh particularly books one andtwo.
So if you're not familiar withlike classical works of
philosophy, books one and twoare kind of the chapters um is
probably the most modernequivalent to them.
So chapters one and two or booksone and two, I think are
especially readable becausethey're full of poetry.
They're the kind of the, oh,what does she call them?
The entry-level, the lighteranecdote uh antidotes that she
(07:15):
begins applying to Boethius arein those sections plus book
three.
Um and that especially is veryengaging, very easy for, I would
think, beginners who haven'tread any philosophy to kind of
dive into.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And and we get this um uhbeautiful image of the uh lady
fortune and her wheel, and it'sjust meant to illustrate the way
that so many of the things thatwe uh hold on to as being so
valuable or so important to usare really outside of our
control.
You know, so it's this you know,sometimes life is like you're
(07:51):
you're on this wheel, or likethink about like a Ferris wheel,
and sometimes you're at the top,and then you think you have
everything figured out, and thenall of a sudden it turns, and
now you're at the bottom.
And so it's this poignant image,and um, and you know, the the
character of lady philosophyherself is this uh really
engaging uh character.
(08:13):
You know, she has a personality,she's not just a kind of
spokeswoman for arguments.
Um, you know, she's kind ofsometimes a little feisty with
Boethius, you know, like whenshe recognizes that he's being
too self-indulgent or or, youknow, throwing a pity party.
Um, she'll kind of let him haveit a little bit, but at the same
(08:34):
time, she really cares abouthim.
And and and so that really comesthrough in the writing, uh,
which makes it all the moreengaging.
SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
It it really does.
She's quite the character whenyou're reading, because you're
not expecting her to kind ofburst through the, I guess the
window.
I don't know exactly, becausehe's in a tower.
He she bursts in and drives outall the muses, and it's this
really dramatic scene thatyou're like, wow, this is not
how I thought a work ofphilosophy would start off.
Um But okay, let's dive intothis book a little bit more.
(09:05):
So it starts off Boethius isquite literally crying in his
tower, bemoaning his life.
His entire life has fallenapart.
He was very successful.
Um he was a very successfulpolitician, plus scholar and and
I guess technically nottheologian, but you know,
philosopher-theologian mix, um,definitely.
And then his his family wassuccessful.
(09:25):
He came from a wealthy,prominent family.
Everything was going his way.
He was one of the main people inRome.
And then it all collapses, andhe finds himself in prison
awaiting basically his terribledeath sentence.
He does end up dying, and it'snot a fun way to go at all.
And so, of course, as mostpeople would, he he's in his
tower, bemoaning his life.
(09:47):
And like, what went wrong?
He's writing his poetry, he'she's very upset about this.
Um, and he's very, very, youknow, we feel for him.
Like, I get why Boethius isn'tupset.
It's not like, oh man, kind oftoughen up, buddy.
Uh no, he's in a badcircumstance.
So why does lady philosophyburst in and go, Boethius, man,
(10:08):
you're really sick.
Like you have an illness.
What is she talking about?
Boethius has the mostunderstandable plight, probably
known to man in this in thiscase.
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
Yeah, this is this is so much of the philosophical
and therapeutic power of thebook, is is Boethius, the
author, and Lady Philosophy, thecharacter, really do think that
despite Boethius's horriblecircumstances, that there are uh
philosophical resources that ifhe could just remember the truth
(10:43):
about philosophy, that he neednot be miserable and full of
fear and despair in thishorrible situation.
It's not gonna change the factthat he's going to be executed.
Um see his family or or uh readbooks in his library or all of
the things he liked to do.
(11:04):
It's not gonna change any ofthat.
But there will be this internalchange where he will uh be able
to face his pending executionwith uh fortitude uh and with a
kind of serenity.
So the um uh contrast betweenthe muses on the one hand and
Lady Philosophy on the other,it's not meant to be a statement
(11:27):
that uh poetry is bad.
And after all, Lady Philosophyherself sings songs of poetry.
The idea is that in Boethius'sframe of mind, when the the
drama of the dialogue firststarts, he is totally um
self-pitying, and it's a kind ofbig churning emotions of of
(11:51):
despair that aren't doing himany good.
Um, you know, there is a kind ofexquisiteness to to sadness that
can sometimes make us relish it.
It's not exactly that we arehappy to be sad, but in in the
intensity of the emotion itself,there's this kind of uh you
could you can sort of savor it.
(12:12):
And when you're in thatcondition, it might like the
intensity of the emotion mightgive you this sort of illusion
of meaning.
But what Lady Philosophy doeswhen she sort of barges in is
like this way that you'refeeling, it might be really
intense in all of that, but it'snot doing you any good.
Let's turn your attention awayfrom that toward trying to
(12:36):
remember some of the truths thatyou once uh learned and once did
you good, and now you'veforgotten them and so you're
miserable.
And so she's she's she's tryingto turn his attention back to um
a frame of mind in which whichis not going to rescue him, but
in which he will be able to facehis circumstances um bravely.
SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
So let's get into this a little bit more.
Um when it comes to our modernage, you made a very uh
fascinating point that I hadn'tnecessarily connected yet to the
constellation of philosophy andwhy it's very relevant to today.
You write about kind of theexistentialist crisis we find
ourselves in, existentialist uh,which leads to an uh existential
crisis.
(13:21):
And we're always definingourselves by s by science, like
we're oh, we're just atoms,we're just our chemical makeup.
We're also um just whatever wewant ourselves to be.
You kind of UBU is a is a greatum slogan of our time.
Whether we actually say it, it'sit's cliche, but we definitely
feel that.
Um I will be what I want myselfto be, and the variety of the
(13:44):
different forms that that comesin.
But you make a case for readingBoethius that's Boethius is not
in this same tension, but in asimilar tension, because Lady
Philosophy says to him, you haveforgotten who you are.
That is the diagnosis she gives,plus a few other things, but
that's one of the main charges.
So, how does that plight relateto where we find ourselves
(14:05):
culturally as a society today?
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
Yeah, that's a big, big question and a great
question.
Um, I would say as a kind ofstart, that it's helpful to
think of the sort of broad umintellectual background to some
of Boethius's reflections here.
So start really broad and thenwe can sort of zoom in a little
bit more.
(14:29):
But the from the really broadperspective, we need to think of
Boethius as a kind of heir of anintellectual tradition that
includes both the Stoics andalso Plato and Aristotle.
Different as these philosophersare from each other, they do
have this sort of shared uhassumption that when it comes to
(14:52):
the question of what is the goodlife or how to live a good life,
or how ought I to live, that thesort of starting point for
reflection on that question iswhat kind of thing we are.
And they all agreed that what weare is a very special kind of
(15:14):
animal.
And um, you know, we're we'relike all the animals, and that
we have a body and we have theseneeds, and uh, but then we have
we have rationality, and that isour distinctive feature.
So they all agree that um thegood life for a human being is
living in accordance with ournature.
(15:37):
So we we sort of try to reflecton what is good uh for human
beings as rational animals, andthen try to extrapolate from
that what sorts of actions, whatsorts of relationships, what
sorts of um uh habits or virtuesuh make the life of that kind of
(15:58):
animal go well.
And and so Boethius shares thatbasic assumption.
And when Lady Philosophy askshim, you know, as you as you
mentioned, when she asks him, Doyou remember what you are?
Or can you tell me what you are?
And he says, Of course, I'm aI'm a rational, mortal animal.
And that was the classicaldefinition of a human being.
(16:21):
And in one sense, Boethius givesthe right answer, but Lady
Philosophy says, uh, can youtell me anything more?
Are you anything more than that?
And he says, I don't know whatyou mean.
Um, or I can't say anythingmore.
She says, Oh, that's yourproblem.
And so she's going to try tohelp him see that although he is
a rational mortal animal, in inline with the the common
(16:43):
agreement of all thephilosophers, there's something
more to us uh and and to himthan being merely a rational
animal.
And that is that is somethinglike this this sort of longing
for transcendence, thisreligious impulse that um is
basically universal acrosscultures.
You know, people disagree aboutreligion, and you know, and I
(17:05):
have my own views about that,but um but whether we want to be
very specific, the sort ofChristian Catholic context that
Boethius himself uh had, or youknow, just a more general kind
of religious impulse, thislonging for something
transcendent, something more,that it that sort of buoys this
hope uh for something beyondthis life.
(17:30):
And that's what she she's goingto try to take him from being
able to give the right kind ofphilosophy answer of what we
are, rational animal, and thenmove him uh beyond that to this
longing for uh for transcendenceand a hope that we can somehow
participate in that some way.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Yeah, this is a big point of um the after-stoicism
side.
So when you first read Boethius,and um I read this with some of
my classmates in for one of ourclasses, and one of their one of
my my friend's critiques wasit's just the Stoics kind of set
over again.
And he kind of tags a few thingsonto that.
And I I think he I think myfriend respectfully is just
(18:13):
completely wrong about this.
And we've had great debates allabout um Boethius and everything
else.
Um and one of the things that Ifind really interesting is you
mentioned this in your book aswell, but we've had Ryan Holiday
on the podcast, a bunch of theseother kind of modern stoic um,
well, I guess, philosophersslash authors today who
basically say a lot of what theStoics said and just make it
(18:37):
more digestible and in moremodern terms, combine it with um
well, not antidotes, butanecdotes, um, and make it more
uh palatable to our kind ofmodern audience.
And I think that's a reallyinteresting shift.
So you have the existentialistside, which is you define who
you are, then you have thisstoic resurgence that's
(18:58):
happening, which is very uniquebecause when you ask these
people about, okay, so a bigpart of is personal
responsibility.
Um and when you ask them, so whyshould you be personally
responsible?
A lot of their answers arepragmatic answers.
It's well, it helps you in yourjob, it helps you with your
family.
In the end, it'll work out well.
But when you press them and say,well, what if it doesn't?
(19:20):
What if you find yourself likeBoethius and you did everything
right?
You know, you're held by yourvirtues, you told the truth, and
then you find yourself in prisonand you die?
Like what what then?
Like what's the point of beingresponsible and kind of
following the virtues?
You hit you hit this existentialcrisis again.
So uh uh two questions for youhere.
(19:41):
Why do you think we have thismodern resurgence of stoicism?
And two, what does Boethiusoffer us that goes beyond
Stoicism or after Stoicism asyour title implies?
SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Yeah, good.
I I think the the stoic, the thecontemporary stoic thing, you
know, it's it it's It lands it'sattractive to kind of
overlapping circles, at least asfar as I've been able to observe
so far.
You know, the what we mightthink of as the modern stoic
(20:12):
revival really starts, like callit like 15 years ago.
And it's almost simultaneouswith the rise of the iPhone, the
iPhone becoming ubiquitous.
There's this kind of umcorrelation in time between the
rise of like social media andand uh personal internet devices
(20:37):
that uh changed the way that uhyou know people who were already
adults at that moment in timetotally changed the way that we
relate to our technology.
You know, I was in my 20s when Igot my iPhone, you know, so I'd
had a lot of life up to then.
And then, you know, over a fewyears I started seeing how it
(21:00):
benefited me in some ways andhow things were so different in
other ways.
One of the one of thesedifferences is that life
interfaced with screens, the waythat it has become for almost
all of us, has this kind ofcompulsive quality.
And I think that the uh thatsort of the way in which the
(21:23):
internet and social media fostercompulsion, compulsive behavior,
you know, doom scrolling or justconstantly clicking on this,
this, and that, the clickbaitand whatever.
It gives you a sense of notbeing in control of your life.
And I think that stoic habitsare of some measure of ascetical
(21:43):
practice, you know, discipliningyourself.
Um it really does remind us thatwe have control over some
things.
We don't have to be a slave tothe clickpait.
Um, and then the same goes forother areas of our life that we
might um where we might strugglewith compulsive behaviors.
It's sort of like we don't haveto live like slaves, even though
(22:08):
the technology uh has um sort oftaken over so much of our lives.
We don't have to be totallyslavish.
Then there's this other sort ofaspect of the stoic revival, and
and it's it's similar, but ithas to do, I think, with a
widespread perception of modernlife being too easy and too
(22:32):
comfortable.
And this is the sort ofattraction that stoicism has uh
primarily for men, but notexclusively for men, the
so-called manosphere stoicism orbroicism, as uh one of my
buddies, uh younger, youngerguys uh who I've talked to about
this puts it, the broicism,where this kind of like, let's
(22:54):
get, let's go to the gym and getshredded or ripped or whatever
the term is now.
Um, not primarily or not onlybecause we want to be healthy or
look good, but because we wantto do hard things to remind
ourselves that while modernlife, at least for so many of us
in the United States, whilemodern life is so easy and so
(23:16):
comfortable in so many ways, uhthere's still something inside
of us that wants challenge, thatwants to do something hard and
have that sense ofaccomplishment.
And so that's the stoic idea offortitude, being willing to
undergo suffering uh in order toachieve something good.
(23:36):
That I think appeals to a lot ofpeople too.
So you have on the one hand, youhave this sort of tech culture
uh trying to find a way to dealwith uh technology, and then on
the other hand, you have thissort of gym culture.
And these do, these can overlapand often do, but I think that's
um sort of two um aspects.
I'm sure there are more.
Like there was during COVID,there was uh a lot of think
(23:58):
pieces about how stoic virtuecan help us deal with isolation
and quarantine.
Um you know, and that side, Ithink um, you know, this this
might sound a little bitpessimistic, but I think one of
the dark sides to the stoicrevival, and there are there, I
think there's lots of reallygood stuff about this, but I
(24:20):
think one of the dark sides isthat it can help us um, even as
it can offer a way to for us toresist compulsion, it also
fosters a kind of resignation tothe isolation and loneliness of
modern technology.
Um, you know, so many youngerpeople are graduating from
(24:43):
college and setting uphouseholds of one with without
necessarily any plan to start afamily or having have a lifelong
partner.
Um so we we have you know jobsthat keep us plugged into our
screens.
We have uh you know young singlepeople living on their own or
(25:04):
renting out a room with someonethey may or may not know very
well, and just sort of livingbasically alone, conducting so
much of their social life, notphysically in proximity to other
people.
And you think, well, that soundslike a horrible thing.
But then if you have a kind ofstoic mindset, you could say,
well, that's just how life is.
(25:25):
I'm not in control of thesebroader market technological
forces that that are structuringour social lives in this way.
But I could still find a lifethat's maybe not full of joy,
but at least a life that is freefrom suffering if I just sort of
accept my fate uh as a as aperson who is fated to be living
(25:46):
on his own behind a screen allthe time.
And that's the that's I thinkthe dark side that we shouldn't
actually be resigned to thatform of life.
I don't think that's a good formof life for a human being.
Um, but the combination of thesort of techie side of the stoic
attraction uh with this uh stoicresignation to unpleasant fate,
(26:09):
I think does produce this sortof uncomfortable um consequence
of the stoic revival.
Now, how how do we get beyondSolicism?
Well, partly it's that it's thatlike not resigning ourselves to
unpleasant fate.
Like, yeah, sometimes if you'rein a situation like Boethius,
there's no hope for escape.
(26:31):
So the best you could do is totry to make peace with the fact
that you're going to die and toum not let your bad
circumstances destroy yourcharacter so that you have the
sort of satisfaction ofmaintaining your nobility in
difficult circumstances.
But what if in ordinary lifethere actually is more to hope
(26:54):
for than merely the avoidance ofsuffering?
After all, that is the stoicideal to train your mind in such
a way that nothing ever tormentsyou.
So if you reach a point of neverbeing miserable, that is the
highest good for the stoicmaster.
(27:16):
But that's just the absence ofsuffering, that's not
necessarily the presence ofhappiness or joy.
And that's the beyond.
Um Boethius really does think,and this is a kind of you could
call it the Christian uhspiritual aspect of the
consolation, you might also callit the neoplatonic mystical
(27:38):
aspect of the consolation, orboth at once.
But he thinks that uh he hegives some arguments that there
exists uh a God, a per apersonal God with whom we can
have some sort of relationship,in whom is our highest good, and
that the more that we uh pursueGod through virtue, um, and
(28:00):
perhaps through other practicesthat he discusses in other
books, um we can move beyondmerely the absence of suffering
toward a positive joy,happiness.
And that so that's the beyondpart.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
All right.
And let me remember, we werejust talking about um beyond
the.
I talked too long.
SPEAKER_02 (28:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
All right.
And we're back live.
Okay.
So one of the things that reallystood out to me, um, especially
upon my first reading ofBoethius' consolation of
philosophy, is the end of booktwo has one of my favorite
poems, probably ever.
Now, I haven't read a lot ofpoetry yet, so this may change,
(28:43):
but it I just find it abeautiful poem.
It starts off the world inconstant change maintains a
harmony, and it goes throughkind of this whole idea of lady
fortune isn't in control of theworld.
The seasons change, but theyhave an order.
Um, one ruler or one ruler holdsin hand.
And he says something veryunstoic in this section.
(29:03):
He says, if love relaxed thereins, all elements that now
keep peace would wreck the greatmachine, which unity maintains
with motions beautiful.
This is the Victor Wattstranslation.
Um but one of the things thatstood out to me there is stoics
famously have, well, the wordbeing stoic.
They're very kind of absence ofsuffering.
(29:24):
You don't want to kind of jumpon the emotional roller coaster
at all.
Um, you just kind of hold backyour emotions at arm's length,
as you mentioned.
Um, you don't want to, you know,jump too far into love because
you know you can lose the peoplethat you love.
So let's just kind of keepeveryone at arm's length.
And what you were mentioningwith kind of this social
isolation we find ourselves uhwe have found ourselves in is
(29:47):
kind of a physical andtechnological representation of
the stoic philosophy in a lot ofsense.
We are ourselves our own littleisland with people outside, and
that's kind of how it goes.
So Boethius is kind of makingthis very Christian assertion,
although not labeling it assuch, that love of all things
(30:07):
holds the reins of the universe.
What does Boethius mean by this?
And how is this radical?
If it is radical, what is thephilosophical connotation and of
this?
SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
It's it's yeah, it's beautiful.
Uh it's a beautiful image.
Uh it it's obviously deeplyresonates with a Christian
reader, and um uh as a Christianhimself, Boethius surely had
that uh meaning in mind, but Idon't think it's probably um the
only thing he had in mind.
(30:42):
I I wonder here if uh he's goingback all the way back to
Democritus, an ancient Greekphilosopher lived before
Aristotle, who was um perhapsthe first atomists, to you know,
the first uh cosmologist orphysicist to uh think of bodies
(31:03):
as composed of very minuteparticles that are stuck
together in various ways.
And he posited that in additionto the these four elements um um
that you know combine andrecombine and all of that, there
are these two fundamentalforces, love and strife.
And that these sort of pervadethe universe.
(31:26):
And so when we think about umattraction, whether that's at a
kind of chemical level or evenat the sort of psychological,
emotional level, that those thatsort of force of attraction is
credited to love writ large, andthen and then repulsion of
(31:47):
whatever kind is attributed tostrife.
And so it's a sort ofquasi-scientific, quasi-poetic
way of trying to make sense ofthe cosmos as a whole, to take
these all these variousphenomena at the sort of
physical level, the spirituallevel, you know, and kind of
(32:08):
give a unifying sort ofexplanation.
Now, as you know, um Christianauthors conceptualize God as
love.
Uh God is love, according to umuh John in one of his epistles.
And this kind of combination ofsort of call it like love
(32:30):
cosmology and love theology getsum taken up by Christian authors
in really beautiful ways.
I think Boethius is doing thathere.
Um Dante does it in the TheDivine Comedy.
I see the uh portrait of uhDante on your wall there.
Um uh, you know, the when Dantewins through to the end of
(32:55):
paradise and has the vision ofGod, he says, My will and my
desires were turned by love, thelove that moves the sun and the
other stars.
Um how Christian is it?
How pagan is it?
Uh, how syncretistic is beingBoethius being here?
It's probably hard to say, but Ithink there there are at least
(33:18):
two themes going on that are inthis sort of um, you know,
either a tension or a tension,uh tension of harmony, um, which
I think is one way to describewhat's going on in the
constellation of philosophy as awhole, this kind of drawing
together a synthesis of themesfrom um his own uh religious
(33:41):
tradition as well as themes fromum pagan uh philosophy and and
and learning.
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
I think we need to real briefly take a step back
and define what we mean by love.
Because I think in modern love,when people say love controls
the universe, it's we think ofit as kind of this fleeting
thing because like for instance,most high school students.
I mean, how many of our friendshave been in and out of high
school relationships where theydeeply love someone and then
next week they've broken up?
(34:10):
And so we have thisunderstanding of love as kind of
like tender swipes or as on asin like, oh, you love them, and
like divorce rates are high.
So love in the modern sense isreally kind of this waxes and
wanes, you know, man.
Like you go, you love one thingand then you love we love
chicken, we all we love people,and it's it has this weird uh it
does not have the sameconnotation that the classical
(34:31):
authors and especially themedieval Christian authors have.
So when Boethius says lovecontrols the universe, it's it's
much more than just kind of, youknow, God feels good about the
world, or Boethius feels goodabout the world.
And he, you know, kind of likesit.
Like what does he mean?
It's it's much richer than that.
And of course, all the classicalauthors do.
SPEAKER_02 (34:51):
Yeah, it's great.
This is um, you know, there, asyou know, there were a few
different concepts of love,actually.
You know, what the words that wewould translate with with simply
with the word love that areactually quite different
concepts.
And I think two that are helpfulfor us to sort of bring to the
(35:12):
table right now are the um thethe love of eros and the love of
agape, or the in Latin, the loveof uh cupiditas and the love of
caritas.
The basic difference here isthat eros or cupidity is a kind
of love of desire.
And it's it's you you don'tnecessarily love the say another
(35:36):
person for their own good.
You love them or feel attractedto them because you think that
being in a relationship withthem will make will be make you
better off.
And then um karitas or agape isa love that is not self-focused,
self-interested.
(35:56):
It's the love that wills thegood of another person for that
other person's sake.
Now, both kinds of love aregood.
I mean, it's it's it's good tohave this um erotic desire.
Um, you know, don't when youhear that, don't think of like
(36:18):
in a modern sense, erotica.
Like that's not really what'swhat we're talking about here,
but that feeling of falling inlove, or that feeling of, you
know, like in the Bambi moviebeing Twitter paid.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
Um Christmas thing.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
Something like that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:37):
Yeah.
But but of course, so that's notbad in this this classical
tradition.
Um but karitas, especially forChristian thinkers, is the
higher way.
And God in this picture, becauseGod is perfect and God depends
on nothing, God has no aros.
(37:00):
The sort of love that God hasand is is agape or karitas.
So when we say that God lovesthe world, or that um the world
is moved or controlled by love,what we mean is that God has
this uh sort of providentialplan for the world, control over
(37:24):
the world.
And that even if sometimes itseems to us like we can't really
make sense of how what's goingon uh is good or how good could
result from the bad things thatgo on in the world, the the
assertion that um the world iscontrolled by love is expresses
this hope that whatever is goingon in the world ultimately is
(37:48):
being um led to some net goodresult.
Um, because the God who is lovehimself, that is karitas, is
willing the good for theuniverse and by extension things
in the universe.
So, yeah, so that I think thatsort of um cupidity, uh karitas,
(38:11):
uh desire, charity, um,contrast, I think is probably
really helpful for a modernaudience to keep in mind.
Like love is not um like love issaid in many ways.
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Exactly.
So we unfortunately have tobegin wrapping up our
conversation of Boethius, sadly.
But um I wanted to kind of takethis.
We've talked a lot of a lot ofdifferent abstract philosophy.
We've talked about the love, uh,the world being ordered by love
and things like this.
But let's see if we can takethis down to uh the the
practical level or the level ofkind of where a lot of the
(38:49):
audience where we find ourselveskind of living our life.
Um when we think of you knowliving, it's hard.
It's hard.
Good things happen, bad thingshappen, um, dreams are crushed,
dreams are fulfilled, all thesewonderful and terrible things
happen throughout your entirelife.
And we are confronted,especially now, with like an
(39:10):
existentialist way to live,like, oh, uh I'm being affected
by everything.
I'm also affecting my worldbecause it's my world is what I
feel and when I make it.
Um we have the stoics who aresaying, well, I'm just gonna
kind of self-isolate, pullmyself in, and anything I can
directly control is the anythingthat's kind of meaningful, and
the only thing I can reallycontrol is myself to certain
extent.
(39:30):
Um and then we have Boethius.
And it's not stoicism, it's notexistentialism.
It wouldn't even be right to sayit's a combination of both.
So when it comes to a practicalway of living, what does taking
Boethius' philosophy and livingit out on a day-to-day basis
throughout your life look like?
(39:52):
Like if Ryan Holliday and someof these other authors who I I
again think have wonderfulthings to say and things we can
pull from, are about You know,daily habits and um you know not
getting flustered by when thingsgo wrong.
And they they have these veryregimented lives, which again
have their complete benefits.
What does Boethius tell us to doon the day-to-day?
Where does Boethius tell us toturn our eyes in times of
(40:15):
trouble?
And how do we live likeBoethius?
SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
Yeah, good.
I mean, the the full the fullanswer here is that I don't
think that Boethius's kind ofprogram of soul transformation
um um can uh I I think the thethe full picture for him is uh
participation in the in theChristian church.
(40:40):
So he writes another uh shortbook of theology, um it's called
On the Christian Faith, where hetalks about um his religious
convictions and hisunderstanding of the church and
its sacraments and how thesehave this healing effect on us.
So, I mean, there's that side ofit, but um on the on the
(41:02):
philosophical, kind of practicalphilosophical side, I think we
we could say this on his behalf,which is that you know, you you
let's say you read a book ofphilosophy like the consolation
and you recognize the insights.
Oh, there's a lot of wisdomhere.
And then um, having read thatand sort of having it in mind,
you you put the book down andyou go on through your life and
(41:25):
you come into these uhsituations where you you might
have a kind of default way ofreacting that is not conducive
to your happ happiness.
Um, and so being mindful of whatyou've just read, you can sort
of see yourself reacting in thebad way and then sort of take
(41:45):
mental notes to do better nexttime.
Now, that that can be genuinelyhelpful, that kind of um just
staying mindful of the lessonsthat you want to implement.
And then when you see yourselfmess up, uh, you know, and even
in the moment, you can feel thatreaction.
Let's say you're gettingagitated or angry when you
(42:06):
really shouldn't be.
Um, you can feel that and thenyou know remember your Boethius.
But the um the trick here isthat if you just read
constellation of philosophy onceand then move on and try to live
out the rest of your lifeimplementing whatever wisdom you
gleaned, well, you're gonnaforget about the book.
And it'll be, you know,gradually uh it'll just slip
(42:28):
your mind and you'll fall backinto your old ways.
So there needs to be this sortof constant um recollection, is
a term from Christianspirituality that I think is
really helpful here, where youeither at the beginning or the
end of a day, preferably both,you have this moment where you
sort of take stock of whereyou're at mentally, emotionally.
(42:52):
In the morning, you makeresolutions about the way in
which you want to live out yourday.
In the evening, you reflect onhow you lived.
Uh, you express perhapsgratitude or um a sense of
satisfaction for things thatwent well.
Uh, you you regret things thatdidn't go well and resolve to do
better next time.
And it's that kind of those sortof punctuated moments of
(43:16):
recollection that allow you totake that pause from the flow of
life that really kind of prepareyou to act well in the midst of
actually living.
Um, so apart from practices likethose, I don't think it's enough
just to sort of say, now I'mgonna be good and happy.
SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
Yeah, exactly.
That tends not to work verywell, just kind of stating, so
my New Year's resolutions don'twork out very well.
It's like I'm gonna be fit thisyear.
It's like, really?
Hell so?
And then it goes on from there.
Um let's see if I can squeezeone more question here, which is
(43:58):
when it comes to suffering anduh suffering well, especially
kind of the way Boethius lays itout.
What does Boethius say aboutconfronting struggling times?
So the Stoics say kind of gritthrough it and control yourself
and continue on and pain in theJim Bro kind of sense, um, no
pain, no gain kind of way.
(44:20):
But Boethius, as we'vementioned, is more than the
absence of suffering.
Um Boethius believes in a worldordered by love.
So when it comes to how Boethiusconfronts suffering, and then
how we as kind of Boethiusfollowers confront suffering,
what's the the mental differencethere?
What do you focus on as aBoethius follower versus a stoic
(44:42):
philosopher?
SPEAKER_02 (44:43):
Yeah, you know, there there's this controversy
we won't get into about howreligious Boethius is and how
religious the consolation ofphilosophy is.
Now, toward the end of the book,the fifth book or fifth chapter,
Lady Philosophy is sort ofwaxing eloquent about the
various philosophical conundrumsthat they think they've they've
(45:05):
solved.
And she admonishes Boethius topractice virtue, to keep praying
to God for help, um, because uhwe we really can have communion
with God, and God sits as ajudge.
Uh so there's this, it's notmeant to terrify Boethius, but
(45:27):
it's meant to be this reminderthat there is this um, there's
more than just our own kind ofautonomous self-legislating that
is um implicated in the morallife.
There is this transcendent moralorder that we are uh invited to,
but also obligated to obey, toparticipate in.
(45:49):
And it's that kind of orientingof one's uh moral life to this
transcendent order that I thinkis um really uh an important
aspect of Boethius's sort ofextension of stoicism.
It's there isn't it's not enoughfor Boethius simply to look
inside, to recognize the umone's own self-interest in
(46:15):
living virtuously, uh, and thentry to re-reprogram your
reactions in accordance withthat self-interest.
There's this bigger transcendentorder that our moral lives are
caught up in.
And by the end of theconstellation of philosophy,
Boethius is really stronglyreminding us of that and
(46:36):
pointing us in that direction.
SPEAKER_01 (46:39):
Well, Dr.
Ward, um, we've gone over time,but here are the last two
questions that we ask all of ourguests, starting with what books
have had an impact on you?
SPEAKER_02 (46:50):
All right.
So The Lord of the Rings by J.
R.
O.
Tolkien shaped my imagination.
And then um nonfiction books byC.S.
Lewis shaped my intellect.
And I would highlight here, inparticular, the problem of pain
and mere Christianity.
So the reading these two authorsin high school is what really
(47:11):
set up my intellectualtrajectory.
I would also like to highlighthere, obviously the
constellation of philosophy, butAristotle's Nicomachean Ethics
has probably been the singlework of philosophy that has
influenced me more than anyothers.
So if you're interested invirtue and the sort of
connection between virtue andour human nature, Aristotle, I
(47:33):
think, is excellent.
Um, I could say more, but forbrevity's sake, I'll stop.
SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
And then our last question what advice do you have
for teenagers?
SPEAKER_02 (47:42):
Learn how to read books.
You're all literate, but moreand more and more you won't have
to read books.
And maybe you already don't evenhave to.
But the key to um a robustintellectual life is the ability
to focus your attention longenough to read whole books.
SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Well, Dr.
Ward, thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation spanning everything
that we've talked about fromclassical philosophy to medieval
to Boethius and everything elsein between.
Thanks again.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
Thank you, Taylor.
I enjoyed it.
What happens when your world crumbles?
When all the things you holddear are snatched away from you.
Most of us would give up indespair.
And yet, though he awaited anunjust execution, Roman senator
and philosopher Boethius pinnedthese hopeful words.
(00:29):
The world in constant changemaintains a harmony, and
elements keep peace whose natureis to war.
Faced with his coming death,Boethius reflected upon his life
of contemplation and philosophy,writing one of the greatest
works of the medieval age onfacing suffering, The
Constellation of Philosophy.
(00:52):
This is the Aiming for the MoonPodcast.
And I'm your host, TaylorBledsoe.
On this podcast, I interviewinteresting people from a
teenage perspective.
In this episode, I sit down withDr.
Thomas Ward to discuss Boethius'Magnum opus and Dr.
Ward's latest book onconstellation of philosophy.
After Stoicism, Last Words ofthe Last Roman Philosopher.
(01:15):
Dr.
Ward and I examine whatBoethius' work can tell us about
how to approach life in themidst of suffering.
Thomas M.
Ward is Associate Professor ofPhilosophy at the University of
Texas at Austin and the Schoolof Civic Leadership.
He's the author of AfterStoicism: Last Words of the Last
Roman Philosopher, which won theCatholic Media Association Book
(01:36):
Award for History.
He studied philosophy at BiolaUniversity and UCLA and theology
at Oxford University.
If you enjoyed this episode,please rate the podcast and
subscribe.
You can follow us atAimingTheNumber 4 Moon on all
the socials to stay up to dateon podcast news and episodes.
Check out the episode notes forthe links to our website,
(01:58):
AimingForthemoon.com, and ourpodcast substack of lessons from
interesting people.
All right, with that, sit back,relax, and listen in.
Thanks again to Paxton Page forthis incredible music.
Thank you to the University ofTulsa Studio 151 for providing a
space to record.
And thank you as well to VictorWatts' translation of the
(02:19):
Constellation of Philosophy forproviding the quote at the
beginning of the intro.
All right, enjoy.
SPEAKER_01 (02:27):
All right, well, welcome, Dr.
Ward, to the interview.
Thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_02 (02:31):
Thanks for having me, Taylor.
SPEAKER_01 (02:32):
So I am very excited to dive into your book, After
Stoicism (02:35):
The Last Words of the Last Roman Philosopher, mainly
because I've been trying tofigure out a reason to talk
about Boethius on the podcastfor a number of years now.
And when your book wasrecommended to me, I was like,
this is it.
This is the moment that we candive into Boethius.
So before we begin talking aboutyour book and the fascinating
(02:57):
argument you make aboutbasically his turn from stoicism
to going beyond stoicism, who isBoethius and why should we in
the modern audience care?
SPEAKER_02 (03:07):
Yeah, thanks.
It's uh we we both have a deepadmiration for that old Roman
senator.
It's too bad he's not around tocome on the show to talk about
his book, but um, he was a lateRoman senator.
He died in uh the 500s and uhfive 524, maybe 525.
(03:29):
Um, so we've just sort ofwrapped up 1500-year uh
anniversary of his death.
The reason why he's famoustoday, um even though he was he
was prominent in his own day,but the reason why he's really
well known today, um, and notjust one of many hundreds of
Roman senators from big wealthyfamilies back then, is that uh
(03:50):
he was um unjustly uh accused ofuh being a traitor, of treason,
and the Gothic uh king,Theodoric, sentenced him to
death.
And while while Boethius was onuh the sort of equivalent of
death row, you know, a sort ofhouse arrest situation where he
(04:11):
was just waiting to die, hewrote this uh amazing book of
philosophy and poetry called TheConsolation of Philosophy.
And and that book uh becameliterally a bestseller for
hundreds of years.
Um a uh 20th-century uh criticnamed C.S.
(04:33):
Lewis, uh V C.
S.
Lewis, once said that for abouta thousand years after the
writing of uh The Consolation ofPhilosophy, it would have been
virtually impossible to find aneducated person in Europe who
did not only, who not only hadread the consolation, but had
been deeply influenced by it.
(04:54):
So it's this massive book thatthat sort of secured Boethius,
Senator Boethius's legacy uhthrough through the centuries.
SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
And that's kind of very interesting because if you
look at the book or you look atit on Amazon or anything, it's
not a very long book at all.
It's actually when you think oflong uh or very influential
philosophical texts, you thinkof The Republic, you think of a
lot of Aristotle's works, whichare, you know, longer works.
They look like big influentialbooks.
The constellation of philosophyis gosh, my Victor Watts
(05:25):
translation might be 175 pages,maybe 200.
Um it's not that long at all.
SPEAKER_02 (05:32):
Yeah, and I think that's part of the staying
power, is that not only is it umnot that long, but it's also
approachable.
You know, a lot of philosophycan be intimidating.
Um, you know, one of my favoritebooks in terms of ideas is the
Nicomuchean Ethics by Aristotle,but the writing itself is very
dry, pretty dense.
(05:53):
Um, whereas Boethius, you openit up and there's this kind of
urgency to it, there's thisemotional power, you're
immediately drawn in with thispoem about um a man in in this
desperate circumstance feelingwretched and and and full of
despair.
So it just draws you in.
And then even in the morephilosophical parts that that
(06:15):
get into like actual arguments,and there's still this kind of
approachability to it.
And sometimes that can bedeceptive.
I mean, I think um with some ofthe arguments that are in the
book, they go really deep andand really repay that sort of
really slow reading.
But you know, any any uh youknow, average um literate uh
(06:39):
adolescent, you know, highschool, college student can pick
it up and give it a fullread-through and understand
probably 80% of it, which issaying a lot for a book of
philosophy, you know.
SPEAKER_01 (06:53):
A hundred percent.
Uh particularly books one andtwo.
So if you're not familiar withlike classical works of
philosophy, books one and twoare kind of the chapters um is
probably the most modernequivalent to them.
So chapters one and two or booksone and two, I think are
especially readable becausethey're full of poetry.
They're the kind of the, oh,what does she call them?
The entry-level, the lighteranecdote uh antidotes that she
(07:15):
begins applying to Boethius arein those sections plus book
three.
Um and that especially is veryengaging, very easy for, I would
think, beginners who haven'tread any philosophy to kind of
dive into.
SPEAKER_02 (07:28):
Yeah, yeah, that's right.
And and we get this um uhbeautiful image of the uh lady
fortune and her wheel, and it'sjust meant to illustrate the way
that so many of the things thatwe uh hold on to as being so
valuable or so important to usare really outside of our
control.
You know, so it's this you know,sometimes life is like you're
(07:51):
you're on this wheel, or likethink about like a Ferris wheel,
and sometimes you're at the top,and then you think you have
everything figured out, and thenall of a sudden it turns, and
now you're at the bottom.
And so it's this poignant image,and um, and you know, the the
character of lady philosophyherself is this uh really
engaging uh character.
(08:13):
You know, she has a personality,she's not just a kind of
spokeswoman for arguments.
Um, you know, she's kind ofsometimes a little feisty with
Boethius, you know, like whenshe recognizes that he's being
too self-indulgent or or, youknow, throwing a pity party.
Um, she'll kind of let him haveit a little bit, but at the same
(08:34):
time, she really cares abouthim.
And and and so that really comesthrough in the writing, uh,
which makes it all the moreengaging.
SPEAKER_01 (08:43):
It it really does.
She's quite the character whenyou're reading, because you're
not expecting her to kind ofburst through the, I guess the
window.
I don't know exactly, becausehe's in a tower.
He she bursts in and drives outall the muses, and it's this
really dramatic scene thatyou're like, wow, this is not
how I thought a work ofphilosophy would start off.
Um But okay, let's dive intothis book a little bit more.
(09:05):
So it starts off Boethius isquite literally crying in his
tower, bemoaning his life.
His entire life has fallenapart.
He was very successful.
Um he was a very successfulpolitician, plus scholar and and
I guess technically nottheologian, but you know,
philosopher-theologian mix, um,definitely.
And then his his family wassuccessful.
(09:25):
He came from a wealthy,prominent family.
Everything was going his way.
He was one of the main people inRome.
And then it all collapses, andhe finds himself in prison
awaiting basically his terribledeath sentence.
He does end up dying, and it'snot a fun way to go at all.
And so, of course, as mostpeople would, he he's in his
tower, bemoaning his life.
(09:47):
And like, what went wrong?
He's writing his poetry, he'she's very upset about this.
Um, and he's very, very, youknow, we feel for him.
Like, I get why Boethius isn'tupset.
It's not like, oh man, kind oftoughen up, buddy.
Uh no, he's in a badcircumstance.
So why does lady philosophyburst in and go, Boethius, man,
(10:08):
you're really sick.
Like you have an illness.
What is she talking about?
Boethius has the mostunderstandable plight, probably
known to man in this in thiscase.
SPEAKER_02 (10:18):
Yeah, this is this is so much of the philosophical
and therapeutic power of thebook, is is Boethius, the
author, and Lady Philosophy, thecharacter, really do think that
despite Boethius's horriblecircumstances, that there are uh
philosophical resources that ifhe could just remember the truth
(10:43):
about philosophy, that he neednot be miserable and full of
fear and despair in thishorrible situation.
It's not gonna change the factthat he's going to be executed.
Um see his family or or uh readbooks in his library or all of
the things he liked to do.
(11:04):
It's not gonna change any ofthat.
But there will be this internalchange where he will uh be able
to face his pending executionwith uh fortitude uh and with a
kind of serenity.
So the um uh contrast betweenthe muses on the one hand and
Lady Philosophy on the other,it's not meant to be a statement
(11:27):
that uh poetry is bad.
And after all, Lady Philosophyherself sings songs of poetry.
The idea is that in Boethius'sframe of mind, when the the
drama of the dialogue firststarts, he is totally um
self-pitying, and it's a kind ofbig churning emotions of of
(11:51):
despair that aren't doing himany good.
Um, you know, there is a kind ofexquisiteness to to sadness that
can sometimes make us relish it.
It's not exactly that we arehappy to be sad, but in in the
intensity of the emotion itself,there's this kind of uh you
could you can sort of savor it.
(12:12):
And when you're in thatcondition, it might like the
intensity of the emotion mightgive you this sort of illusion
of meaning.
But what Lady Philosophy doeswhen she sort of barges in is
like this way that you'refeeling, it might be really
intense in all of that, but it'snot doing you any good.
Let's turn your attention awayfrom that toward trying to
(12:36):
remember some of the truths thatyou once uh learned and once did
you good, and now you'veforgotten them and so you're
miserable.
And so she's she's she's tryingto turn his attention back to um
a frame of mind in which whichis not going to rescue him, but
in which he will be able to facehis circumstances um bravely.
SPEAKER_01 (13:00):
So let's get into this a little bit more.
Um when it comes to our modernage, you made a very uh
fascinating point that I hadn'tnecessarily connected yet to the
constellation of philosophy andwhy it's very relevant to today.
You write about kind of theexistentialist crisis we find
ourselves in, existentialist uh,which leads to an uh existential
crisis.
(13:21):
And we're always definingourselves by s by science, like
we're oh, we're just atoms,we're just our chemical makeup.
We're also um just whatever wewant ourselves to be.
You kind of UBU is a is a greatum slogan of our time.
Whether we actually say it, it'sit's cliche, but we definitely
feel that.
Um I will be what I want myselfto be, and the variety of the
(13:44):
different forms that that comesin.
But you make a case for readingBoethius that's Boethius is not
in this same tension, but in asimilar tension, because Lady
Philosophy says to him, you haveforgotten who you are.
That is the diagnosis she gives,plus a few other things, but
that's one of the main charges.
So, how does that plight relateto where we find ourselves
(14:05):
culturally as a society today?
SPEAKER_02 (14:08):
Yeah, that's a big, big question and a great
question.
Um, I would say as a kind ofstart, that it's helpful to
think of the sort of broad umintellectual background to some
of Boethius's reflections here.
So start really broad and thenwe can sort of zoom in a little
bit more.
(14:29):
But the from the really broadperspective, we need to think of
Boethius as a kind of heir of anintellectual tradition that
includes both the Stoics andalso Plato and Aristotle.
Different as these philosophersare from each other, they do
have this sort of shared uhassumption that when it comes to
(14:52):
the question of what is the goodlife or how to live a good life,
or how ought I to live, that thesort of starting point for
reflection on that question iswhat kind of thing we are.
And they all agreed that what weare is a very special kind of
(15:14):
animal.
And um, you know, we're we'relike all the animals, and that
we have a body and we have theseneeds, and uh, but then we have
we have rationality, and that isour distinctive feature.
So they all agree that um thegood life for a human being is
living in accordance with ournature.
(15:37):
So we we sort of try to reflecton what is good uh for human
beings as rational animals, andthen try to extrapolate from
that what sorts of actions, whatsorts of relationships, what
sorts of um uh habits or virtuesuh make the life of that kind of
(15:58):
animal go well.
And and so Boethius shares thatbasic assumption.
And when Lady Philosophy askshim, you know, as you as you
mentioned, when she asks him, Doyou remember what you are?
Or can you tell me what you are?
And he says, Of course, I'm aI'm a rational, mortal animal.
And that was the classicaldefinition of a human being.
(16:21):
And in one sense, Boethius givesthe right answer, but Lady
Philosophy says, uh, can youtell me anything more?
Are you anything more than that?
And he says, I don't know whatyou mean.
Um, or I can't say anythingmore.
She says, Oh, that's yourproblem.
And so she's going to try tohelp him see that although he is
a rational mortal animal, in inline with the the common
(16:43):
agreement of all thephilosophers, there's something
more to us uh and and to himthan being merely a rational
animal.
And that is that is somethinglike this this sort of longing
for transcendence, thisreligious impulse that um is
basically universal acrosscultures.
You know, people disagree aboutreligion, and you know, and I
(17:05):
have my own views about that,but um but whether we want to be
very specific, the sort ofChristian Catholic context that
Boethius himself uh had, or youknow, just a more general kind
of religious impulse, thislonging for something
transcendent, something more,that it that sort of buoys this
hope uh for something beyondthis life.
(17:30):
And that's what she she's goingto try to take him from being
able to give the right kind ofphilosophy answer of what we
are, rational animal, and thenmove him uh beyond that to this
longing for uh for transcendenceand a hope that we can somehow
participate in that some way.
SPEAKER_01 (17:51):
Yeah, this is a big point of um the after-stoicism
side.
So when you first read Boethius,and um I read this with some of
my classmates in for one of ourclasses, and one of their one of
my my friend's critiques wasit's just the Stoics kind of set
over again.
And he kind of tags a few thingsonto that.
And I I think he I think myfriend respectfully is just
(18:13):
completely wrong about this.
And we've had great debates allabout um Boethius and everything
else.
Um and one of the things that Ifind really interesting is you
mentioned this in your book aswell, but we've had Ryan Holiday
on the podcast, a bunch of theseother kind of modern stoic um,
well, I guess, philosophersslash authors today who
basically say a lot of what theStoics said and just make it
(18:37):
more digestible and in moremodern terms, combine it with um
well, not antidotes, butanecdotes, um, and make it more
uh palatable to our kind ofmodern audience.
And I think that's a reallyinteresting shift.
So you have the existentialistside, which is you define who
you are, then you have thisstoic resurgence that's
(18:58):
happening, which is very uniquebecause when you ask these
people about, okay, so a bigpart of is personal
responsibility.
Um and when you ask them, so whyshould you be personally
responsible?
A lot of their answers arepragmatic answers.
It's well, it helps you in yourjob, it helps you with your
family.
In the end, it'll work out well.
But when you press them and say,well, what if it doesn't?
(19:20):
What if you find yourself likeBoethius and you did everything
right?
You know, you're held by yourvirtues, you told the truth, and
then you find yourself in prisonand you die?
Like what what then?
Like what's the point of beingresponsible and kind of
following the virtues?
You hit you hit this existentialcrisis again.
So uh uh two questions for youhere.
(19:41):
Why do you think we have thismodern resurgence of stoicism?
And two, what does Boethiusoffer us that goes beyond
Stoicism or after Stoicism asyour title implies?
SPEAKER_02 (19:52):
Yeah, good.
I I think the the stoic, the thecontemporary stoic thing, you
know, it's it it's It lands it'sattractive to kind of
overlapping circles, at least asfar as I've been able to observe
so far.
You know, the what we mightthink of as the modern stoic
(20:12):
revival really starts, like callit like 15 years ago.
And it's almost simultaneouswith the rise of the iPhone, the
iPhone becoming ubiquitous.
There's this kind of umcorrelation in time between the
rise of like social media andand uh personal internet devices
(20:37):
that uh changed the way that uhyou know people who were already
adults at that moment in timetotally changed the way that we
relate to our technology.
You know, I was in my 20s when Igot my iPhone, you know, so I'd
had a lot of life up to then.
And then, you know, over a fewyears I started seeing how it
(21:00):
benefited me in some ways andhow things were so different in
other ways.
One of the one of thesedifferences is that life
interfaced with screens, the waythat it has become for almost
all of us, has this kind ofcompulsive quality.
And I think that the uh thatsort of the way in which the
(21:23):
internet and social media fostercompulsion, compulsive behavior,
you know, doom scrolling or justconstantly clicking on this,
this, and that, the clickbaitand whatever.
It gives you a sense of notbeing in control of your life.
And I think that stoic habitsare of some measure of ascetical
(21:43):
practice, you know, discipliningyourself.
Um it really does remind us thatwe have control over some
things.
We don't have to be a slave tothe clickpait.
Um, and then the same goes forother areas of our life that we
might um where we might strugglewith compulsive behaviors.
It's sort of like we don't haveto live like slaves, even though
(22:08):
the technology uh has um sort oftaken over so much of our lives.
We don't have to be totallyslavish.
Then there's this other sort ofaspect of the stoic revival, and
and it's it's similar, but ithas to do, I think, with a
widespread perception of modernlife being too easy and too
(22:32):
comfortable.
And this is the sort ofattraction that stoicism has uh
primarily for men, but notexclusively for men, the
so-called manosphere stoicism orbroicism, as uh one of my
buddies, uh younger, youngerguys uh who I've talked to about
this puts it, the broicism,where this kind of like, let's
(22:54):
get, let's go to the gym and getshredded or ripped or whatever
the term is now.
Um, not primarily or not onlybecause we want to be healthy or
look good, but because we wantto do hard things to remind
ourselves that while modernlife, at least for so many of us
in the United States, whilemodern life is so easy and so
(23:16):
comfortable in so many ways, uhthere's still something inside
of us that wants challenge, thatwants to do something hard and
have that sense ofaccomplishment.
And so that's the stoic idea offortitude, being willing to
undergo suffering uh in order toachieve something good.
(23:36):
That I think appeals to a lot ofpeople too.
So you have on the one hand, youhave this sort of tech culture
uh trying to find a way to dealwith uh technology, and then on
the other hand, you have thissort of gym culture.
And these do, these can overlapand often do, but I think that's
um sort of two um aspects.
I'm sure there are more.
Like there was during COVID,there was uh a lot of think
(23:58):
pieces about how stoic virtuecan help us deal with isolation
and quarantine.
Um you know, and that side, Ithink um, you know, this this
might sound a little bitpessimistic, but I think one of
the dark sides to the stoicrevival, and there are there, I
think there's lots of reallygood stuff about this, but I
(24:20):
think one of the dark sides isthat it can help us um, even as
it can offer a way to for us toresist compulsion, it also
fosters a kind of resignation tothe isolation and loneliness of
modern technology.
Um, you know, so many youngerpeople are graduating from
(24:43):
college and setting uphouseholds of one with without
necessarily any plan to start afamily or having have a lifelong
partner.
Um so we we have you know jobsthat keep us plugged into our
screens.
We have uh you know young singlepeople living on their own or
(25:04):
renting out a room with someonethey may or may not know very
well, and just sort of livingbasically alone, conducting so
much of their social life, notphysically in proximity to other
people.
And you think, well, that soundslike a horrible thing.
But then if you have a kind ofstoic mindset, you could say,
well, that's just how life is.
(25:25):
I'm not in control of thesebroader market technological
forces that that are structuringour social lives in this way.
But I could still find a lifethat's maybe not full of joy,
but at least a life that is freefrom suffering if I just sort of
accept my fate uh as a as aperson who is fated to be living
(25:46):
on his own behind a screen allthe time.
And that's the that's I thinkthe dark side that we shouldn't
actually be resigned to thatform of life.
I don't think that's a good formof life for a human being.
Um, but the combination of thesort of techie side of the stoic
attraction uh with this uh stoicresignation to unpleasant fate,
(26:09):
I think does produce this sortof uncomfortable um consequence
of the stoic revival.
Now, how how do we get beyondSolicism?
Well, partly it's that it's thatlike not resigning ourselves to
unpleasant fate.
Like, yeah, sometimes if you'rein a situation like Boethius,
there's no hope for escape.
(26:31):
So the best you could do is totry to make peace with the fact
that you're going to die and toum not let your bad
circumstances destroy yourcharacter so that you have the
sort of satisfaction ofmaintaining your nobility in
difficult circumstances.
But what if in ordinary lifethere actually is more to hope
(26:54):
for than merely the avoidance ofsuffering?
After all, that is the stoicideal to train your mind in such
a way that nothing ever tormentsyou.
So if you reach a point of neverbeing miserable, that is the
highest good for the stoicmaster.
(27:16):
But that's just the absence ofsuffering, that's not
necessarily the presence ofhappiness or joy.
And that's the beyond.
Um Boethius really does think,and this is a kind of you could
call it the Christian uhspiritual aspect of the
consolation, you might also callit the neoplatonic mystical
(27:38):
aspect of the consolation, orboth at once.
But he thinks that uh he hegives some arguments that there
exists uh a God, a per apersonal God with whom we can
have some sort of relationship,in whom is our highest good, and
that the more that we uh pursueGod through virtue, um, and
(28:00):
perhaps through other practicesthat he discusses in other
books, um we can move beyondmerely the absence of suffering
toward a positive joy,happiness.
And that so that's the beyondpart.
SPEAKER_01 (28:17):
All right.
And let me remember, we werejust talking about um beyond
the.
I talked too long.
SPEAKER_02 (28:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:22):
All right.
And we're back live.
Okay.
So one of the things that reallystood out to me, um, especially
upon my first reading ofBoethius' consolation of
philosophy, is the end of booktwo has one of my favorite
poems, probably ever.
Now, I haven't read a lot ofpoetry yet, so this may change,
(28:43):
but it I just find it abeautiful poem.
It starts off the world inconstant change maintains a
harmony, and it goes throughkind of this whole idea of lady
fortune isn't in control of theworld.
The seasons change, but theyhave an order.
Um, one ruler or one ruler holdsin hand.
And he says something veryunstoic in this section.
(29:03):
He says, if love relaxed thereins, all elements that now
keep peace would wreck the greatmachine, which unity maintains
with motions beautiful.
This is the Victor Wattstranslation.
Um but one of the things thatstood out to me there is stoics
famously have, well, the wordbeing stoic.
They're very kind of absence ofsuffering.
(29:24):
You don't want to kind of jumpon the emotional roller coaster
at all.
Um, you just kind of hold backyour emotions at arm's length,
as you mentioned.
Um, you don't want to, you know,jump too far into love because
you know you can lose the peoplethat you love.
So let's just kind of keepeveryone at arm's length.
And what you were mentioningwith kind of this social
isolation we find ourselves uhwe have found ourselves in is
(29:47):
kind of a physical andtechnological representation of
the stoic philosophy in a lot ofsense.
We are ourselves our own littleisland with people outside, and
that's kind of how it goes.
So Boethius is kind of makingthis very Christian assertion,
although not labeling it assuch, that love of all things
(30:07):
holds the reins of the universe.
What does Boethius mean by this?
And how is this radical?
If it is radical, what is thephilosophical connotation and of
this?
SPEAKER_02 (30:20):
It's it's yeah, it's beautiful.
Uh it's a beautiful image.
Uh it it's obviously deeplyresonates with a Christian
reader, and um uh as a Christianhimself, Boethius surely had
that uh meaning in mind, but Idon't think it's probably um the
only thing he had in mind.
(30:42):
I I wonder here if uh he's goingback all the way back to
Democritus, an ancient Greekphilosopher lived before
Aristotle, who was um perhapsthe first atomists, to you know,
the first uh cosmologist orphysicist to uh think of bodies
(31:03):
as composed of very minuteparticles that are stuck
together in various ways.
And he posited that in additionto the these four elements um um
that you know combine andrecombine and all of that, there
are these two fundamentalforces, love and strife.
And that these sort of pervadethe universe.
(31:26):
And so when we think about umattraction, whether that's at a
kind of chemical level or evenat the sort of psychological,
emotional level, that those thatsort of force of attraction is
credited to love writ large, andthen and then repulsion of
(31:47):
whatever kind is attributed tostrife.
And so it's a sort ofquasi-scientific, quasi-poetic
way of trying to make sense ofthe cosmos as a whole, to take
these all these variousphenomena at the sort of
physical level, the spirituallevel, you know, and kind of
(32:08):
give a unifying sort ofexplanation.
Now, as you know, um Christianauthors conceptualize God as
love.
Uh God is love, according to umuh John in one of his epistles.
And this kind of combination ofsort of call it like love
(32:30):
cosmology and love theology getsum taken up by Christian authors
in really beautiful ways.
I think Boethius is doing thathere.
Um Dante does it in the TheDivine Comedy.
I see the uh portrait of uhDante on your wall there.
Um uh, you know, the when Dantewins through to the end of
(32:55):
paradise and has the vision ofGod, he says, My will and my
desires were turned by love, thelove that moves the sun and the
other stars.
Um how Christian is it?
How pagan is it?
Uh, how syncretistic is beingBoethius being here?
It's probably hard to say, but Ithink there there are at least
(33:18):
two themes going on that are inthis sort of um, you know,
either a tension or a tension,uh tension of harmony, um, which
I think is one way to describewhat's going on in the
constellation of philosophy as awhole, this kind of drawing
together a synthesis of themesfrom um his own uh religious
(33:41):
tradition as well as themes fromum pagan uh philosophy and and
and learning.
SPEAKER_01 (33:50):
I think we need to real briefly take a step back
and define what we mean by love.
Because I think in modern love,when people say love controls
the universe, it's we think ofit as kind of this fleeting
thing because like for instance,most high school students.
I mean, how many of our friendshave been in and out of high
school relationships where theydeeply love someone and then
next week they've broken up?
(34:10):
And so we have thisunderstanding of love as kind of
like tender swipes or as on asin like, oh, you love them, and
like divorce rates are high.
So love in the modern sense isreally kind of this waxes and
wanes, you know, man.
Like you go, you love one thingand then you love we love
chicken, we all we love people,and it's it has this weird uh it
does not have the sameconnotation that the classical
(34:31):
authors and especially themedieval Christian authors have.
So when Boethius says lovecontrols the universe, it's it's
much more than just kind of, youknow, God feels good about the
world, or Boethius feels goodabout the world.
And he, you know, kind of likesit.
Like what does he mean?
It's it's much richer than that.
And of course, all the classicalauthors do.
SPEAKER_02 (34:51):
Yeah, it's great.
This is um, you know, there, asyou know, there were a few
different concepts of love,actually.
You know, what the words that wewould translate with with simply
with the word love that areactually quite different
concepts.
And I think two that are helpfulfor us to sort of bring to the
(35:12):
table right now are the um thethe love of eros and the love of
agape, or the in Latin, the loveof uh cupiditas and the love of
caritas.
The basic difference here isthat eros or cupidity is a kind
of love of desire.
And it's it's you you don'tnecessarily love the say another
(35:36):
person for their own good.
You love them or feel attractedto them because you think that
being in a relationship withthem will make will be make you
better off.
And then um karitas or agape isa love that is not self-focused,
self-interested.
(35:56):
It's the love that wills thegood of another person for that
other person's sake.
Now, both kinds of love aregood.
I mean, it's it's it's good tohave this um erotic desire.
Um, you know, don't when youhear that, don't think of like
(36:18):
in a modern sense, erotica.
Like that's not really what'swhat we're talking about here,
but that feeling of falling inlove, or that feeling of, you
know, like in the Bambi moviebeing Twitter paid.
SPEAKER_01 (36:31):
Um Christmas thing.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
Something like that.
SPEAKER_02 (36:37):
Yeah.
But but of course, so that's notbad in this this classical
tradition.
Um but karitas, especially forChristian thinkers, is the
higher way.
And God in this picture, becauseGod is perfect and God depends
on nothing, God has no aros.
(37:00):
The sort of love that God hasand is is agape or karitas.
So when we say that God lovesthe world, or that um the world
is moved or controlled by love,what we mean is that God has
this uh sort of providentialplan for the world, control over
(37:24):
the world.
And that even if sometimes itseems to us like we can't really
make sense of how what's goingon uh is good or how good could
result from the bad things thatgo on in the world, the the
assertion that um the world iscontrolled by love is expresses
this hope that whatever is goingon in the world ultimately is
(37:48):
being um led to some net goodresult.
Um, because the God who is lovehimself, that is karitas, is
willing the good for theuniverse and by extension things
in the universe.
So, yeah, so that I think thatsort of um cupidity, uh karitas,
(38:11):
uh desire, charity, um,contrast, I think is probably
really helpful for a modernaudience to keep in mind.
Like love is not um like love issaid in many ways.
SPEAKER_01 (38:27):
Exactly.
So we unfortunately have tobegin wrapping up our
conversation of Boethius, sadly.
But um I wanted to kind of takethis.
We've talked a lot of a lot ofdifferent abstract philosophy.
We've talked about the love, uh,the world being ordered by love
and things like this.
But let's see if we can takethis down to uh the the
practical level or the level ofkind of where a lot of the
(38:49):
audience where we find ourselveskind of living our life.
Um when we think of you knowliving, it's hard.
It's hard.
Good things happen, bad thingshappen, um, dreams are crushed,
dreams are fulfilled, all thesewonderful and terrible things
happen throughout your entirelife.
And we are confronted,especially now, with like an
(39:10):
existentialist way to live,like, oh, uh I'm being affected
by everything.
I'm also affecting my worldbecause it's my world is what I
feel and when I make it.
Um we have the stoics who aresaying, well, I'm just gonna
kind of self-isolate, pullmyself in, and anything I can
directly control is the anythingthat's kind of meaningful, and
the only thing I can reallycontrol is myself to certain
extent.
(39:30):
Um and then we have Boethius.
And it's not stoicism, it's notexistentialism.
It wouldn't even be right to sayit's a combination of both.
So when it comes to a practicalway of living, what does taking
Boethius' philosophy and livingit out on a day-to-day basis
throughout your life look like?
(39:52):
Like if Ryan Holliday and someof these other authors who I I
again think have wonderfulthings to say and things we can
pull from, are about You know,daily habits and um you know not
getting flustered by when thingsgo wrong.
And they they have these veryregimented lives, which again
have their complete benefits.
What does Boethius tell us to doon the day-to-day?
Where does Boethius tell us toturn our eyes in times of
(40:15):
trouble?
And how do we live likeBoethius?
SPEAKER_02 (40:19):
Yeah, good.
I mean, the the full the fullanswer here is that I don't
think that Boethius's kind ofprogram of soul transformation
um um can uh I I think the thethe full picture for him is uh
participation in the in theChristian church.
(40:40):
So he writes another uh shortbook of theology, um it's called
On the Christian Faith, where hetalks about um his religious
convictions and hisunderstanding of the church and
its sacraments and how thesehave this healing effect on us.
So, I mean, there's that side ofit, but um on the on the
(41:02):
philosophical, kind of practicalphilosophical side, I think we
we could say this on his behalf,which is that you know, you you
let's say you read a book ofphilosophy like the consolation
and you recognize the insights.
Oh, there's a lot of wisdomhere.
And then um, having read thatand sort of having it in mind,
you you put the book down andyou go on through your life and
(41:25):
you come into these uhsituations where you you might
have a kind of default way ofreacting that is not conducive
to your happ happiness.
Um, and so being mindful of whatyou've just read, you can sort
of see yourself reacting in thebad way and then sort of take
(41:45):
mental notes to do better nexttime.
Now, that that can be genuinelyhelpful, that kind of um just
staying mindful of the lessonsthat you want to implement.
And then when you see yourselfmess up, uh, you know, and even
in the moment, you can feel thatreaction.
Let's say you're gettingagitated or angry when you
(42:06):
really shouldn't be.
Um, you can feel that and thenyou know remember your Boethius.
But the um the trick here isthat if you just read
constellation of philosophy onceand then move on and try to live
out the rest of your lifeimplementing whatever wisdom you
gleaned, well, you're gonnaforget about the book.
And it'll be, you know,gradually uh it'll just slip
(42:28):
your mind and you'll fall backinto your old ways.
So there needs to be this sortof constant um recollection, is
a term from Christianspirituality that I think is
really helpful here, where youeither at the beginning or the
end of a day, preferably both,you have this moment where you
sort of take stock of whereyou're at mentally, emotionally.
(42:52):
In the morning, you makeresolutions about the way in
which you want to live out yourday.
In the evening, you reflect onhow you lived.
Uh, you express perhapsgratitude or um a sense of
satisfaction for things thatwent well.
Uh, you you regret things thatdidn't go well and resolve to do
better next time.
And it's that kind of those sortof punctuated moments of
(43:16):
recollection that allow you totake that pause from the flow of
life that really kind of prepareyou to act well in the midst of
actually living.
Um, so apart from practices likethose, I don't think it's enough
just to sort of say, now I'mgonna be good and happy.
SPEAKER_01 (43:38):
Yeah, exactly.
That tends not to work verywell, just kind of stating, so
my New Year's resolutions don'twork out very well.
It's like I'm gonna be fit thisyear.
It's like, really?
Hell so?
And then it goes on from there.
Um let's see if I can squeezeone more question here, which is
(43:58):
when it comes to suffering anduh suffering well, especially
kind of the way Boethius lays itout.
What does Boethius say aboutconfronting struggling times?
So the Stoics say kind of gritthrough it and control yourself
and continue on and pain in theJim Bro kind of sense, um, no
pain, no gain kind of way.
(44:20):
But Boethius, as we'vementioned, is more than the
absence of suffering.
Um Boethius believes in a worldordered by love.
So when it comes to how Boethiusconfronts suffering, and then
how we as kind of Boethiusfollowers confront suffering,
what's the the mental differencethere?
What do you focus on as aBoethius follower versus a stoic
(44:42):
philosopher?
SPEAKER_02 (44:43):
Yeah, you know, there there's this controversy
we won't get into about howreligious Boethius is and how
religious the consolation ofphilosophy is.
Now, toward the end of the book,the fifth book or fifth chapter,
Lady Philosophy is sort ofwaxing eloquent about the
various philosophical conundrumsthat they think they've they've
(45:05):
solved.
And she admonishes Boethius topractice virtue, to keep praying
to God for help, um, because uhwe we really can have communion
with God, and God sits as ajudge.
Uh so there's this, it's notmeant to terrify Boethius, but
(45:27):
it's meant to be this reminderthat there is this um, there's
more than just our own kind ofautonomous self-legislating that
is um implicated in the morallife.
There is this transcendent moralorder that we are uh invited to,
but also obligated to obey, toparticipate in.
(45:49):
And it's that kind of orientingof one's uh moral life to this
transcendent order that I thinkis um really uh an important
aspect of Boethius's sort ofextension of stoicism.
It's there isn't it's not enoughfor Boethius simply to look
inside, to recognize the umone's own self-interest in
(46:15):
living virtuously, uh, and thentry to re-reprogram your
reactions in accordance withthat self-interest.
There's this bigger transcendentorder that our moral lives are
caught up in.
And by the end of theconstellation of philosophy,
Boethius is really stronglyreminding us of that and
(46:36):
pointing us in that direction.
SPEAKER_01 (46:39):
Well, Dr.
Ward, um, we've gone over time,but here are the last two
questions that we ask all of ourguests, starting with what books
have had an impact on you?
SPEAKER_02 (46:50):
All right.
So The Lord of the Rings by J.
R.
O.
Tolkien shaped my imagination.
And then um nonfiction books byC.S.
Lewis shaped my intellect.
And I would highlight here, inparticular, the problem of pain
and mere Christianity.
So the reading these two authorsin high school is what really
(47:11):
set up my intellectualtrajectory.
I would also like to highlighthere, obviously the
constellation of philosophy, butAristotle's Nicomachean Ethics
has probably been the singlework of philosophy that has
influenced me more than anyothers.
So if you're interested invirtue and the sort of
connection between virtue andour human nature, Aristotle, I
(47:33):
think, is excellent.
Um, I could say more, but forbrevity's sake, I'll stop.
SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
And then our last question what advice do you have
for teenagers?
SPEAKER_02 (47:42):
Learn how to read books.
You're all literate, but moreand more and more you won't have
to read books.
And maybe you already don't evenhave to.
But the key to um a robustintellectual life is the ability
to focus your attention longenough to read whole books.
SPEAKER_01 (48:05):
Well, Dr.
Ward, thank you so much forcoming on the podcast.
I've really enjoyed ourconversation spanning everything
that we've talked about fromclassical philosophy to medieval
to Boethius and everything elsein between.
Thanks again.
SPEAKER_02 (48:17):
Thank you, Taylor.
I enjoyed it.
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