S8:E82 - Mallory Roberts: Oral Mapping, Bottle Feeding, and Nasal Hygiene for Babies - Airway First

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to Airway First, the podcast from the Children's Airway First

(00:27):
Foundation. I'm your host, Rebecca St. James. My guest today is Mallory Roberts, a speech
pathologist who is trained in craniosacral therapy, myofunctional therapy, and infant
massage. She has special interests in infant reflex, infant oral development, and bottle
feeding. Through her professional work and due to the lack of support during her own

(00:50):
baby's feeding journeys, she created the feeding mom. It's here that she empowers parents
through their feeding journeys locally and around the world. Her philosophy is every
parent deserves to love feeding their baby. You can find out more about Mallory at thefeedingmom.com
or on Instagram at infant.feeding.specialist. And now let's jump into today's episode with

(01:17):
our guest Mallory Roberts. Awesome. Good morning Mallory. Thank you so much for joining us
on the show today. Yes, hello. How are you? I am doing awesome. Good. So I found you because
I'm in love with your Instagram page. Thank you so much. Yeah, you're welcome. And we'll

(01:38):
put a link to it in the show notes because there's tons of great information out there
for moms. Too much for us to cover really. But for today, I want to dig in and really
just focus on the mouth. So let's start off with why is it so important for new moms to
get in their child's mouth? And what is oral mapping and what's the proper way to do it?

(01:59):
Yeah, it's such a weird concept. And a lot of times parents are like, that's a little
strange, right? When we look at the mouth and really I am all for all human beings getting
in their mouths. I really push the adults of the parents I work with like to get in
their mouth, right? And they can start to feel the differences in their body, which then

(02:23):
in turn really changes their sort of mindset, how they feel about getting in their own child's
mouth. But for a baby who is carrying tension and we have that word, right, or tightness
or has a restriction or isn't using their mouth optimally, getting in there is just

(02:44):
it's, it's like any kind of support we give these babies for head control. It's like
the support we give them to sit and to roll and we're constantly moving their body to
facilitate those movements, right? And so when we look at the mouth, if you just take

(03:06):
off any kind of weirdness that you feel about it and look at it from a muscle perspective,
right, the tongue is such a big, great muscle. And it's important for not just feeding, but
for breathing and for digestion and to regulate the body. And we can facilitate that muscle.

(03:31):
The oral play that we encourage, right, is to engage the muscles to move and to release
any tension that they might be feeling in order to function properly. And to expand
that, right? When the tongue isn't doing what it should be, which is sitting on the

(03:51):
palate, shaping the face, regulating the system, the baby's brain connection to that space
is limited. And when we're talking about oral mapping, getting in the mouth and building
those connections, helping baby build those connections is important when we start to

(04:12):
look at being and not just when you're starting solids, but there's lots of babies who will
gag on pacifiers, gag on bottles. And that is because of that brain connection, they're
missing pieces in that space. And getting in the mouth can help build safety within
that space.
And that gag reflex, is that also, is it the same for adults? Because that mapping is just

(04:38):
not fair? Or is that a different?
Yeah. So I would say it's different. Interesting. It could be depending on what activity you're
trying to do, right? Like if somebody's, so for adults, we're very cognitive, okay? Babies
are more reflexive, right? And so right now you could think of something really gross,

(05:00):
something that you can't stand and you could, you could make yourself gag, right? Because
it's not just that physical thing, it's emotional too.
I'm thinking about brushing your teeth or when we get to dinner, some of us gag.
So when we look at things like that, right? Is it because of your perceived notion of
the activity itself? Like some people just don't like the dentist, right? Or is it because

(05:24):
your body is carrying tension in the back of the tongue and your brain connection lacks
awareness of that space and doesn't feel safe, right?
So even for adults, if you struggle with brushing your teeth as an adult, or if your child struggles
brushing their teeth because they're just excessively gagging, we have to look at why?

(05:48):
Because that gagging is physical, but it's also psychological, yeah? And so do you not
feel safe in that space? Is your gag reflex hyper sensitive because of that?
Then it's such a huge though, this is a, you've touched on it. And again, I encourage people
to go to your Instagram page, but before we move away from this topic, you mentioned the

(06:10):
brain connection. I don't think we talk about that enough. And I think it's really important
for parents to hear, you don't, no one told us and you don't think about it.
Yeah.
One of the best ways you can help your child's cognitive development is having that tongue
in the roof of their mouth and having a good airway sleep pattern.

(06:30):
Yes. I mean, not just brain connection for awareness, right? Because if there's a part
of your body that doesn't get touched, right? Like that's anywhere in your body and doesn't
get moved and doesn't get a lot of input. Any new touch to that area is going to be
sensitive, right? Like your brain's like, whoa, what's going on?

(06:53):
Yeah.
Yeah. And so if your tongue is sitting low in the mouth and that palate is always wide
open and it's never getting any kind of input, if you're going into space that never gets
input, then your brain is going, that's a defense mechanism. Gagging is for safety, right? And
we need to help create that safety in the body, but also, right? Like turning the brain

(07:20):
down because that's what the tongue is doing when it's on the palate is bringing it into
the parasympathetic nervous system. And then, so if you never there and your brain is always
on, gosh, that's exhausting for your body. You can't function if your brain is constant.
That's not going without sleep. And that's when we go into what's the quality of sleep

(07:40):
versus the quantity of sleep, right?
I mean, if you're constantly in that fight flight and you're not sleeping, we're getting
into things like ADHD and other behavioral issues. It's really just a can of worms that
I don't think people, it's from the outside world, you don't put them all together.
Yeah, no, right. We're always separating. Like everything is its own thing, right? And
that's right. The body is all.

(08:02):
That's how the body works.
Yeah.
Correct. No.
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about breastfeeding because this is a huge topic. And before we
dig into this, I just want to caveat it with, if you're in a poem that wasn't able to breastfeed
and your child is older, like mine, go ahead and take your mom guilt and let's put it to
the side as we continue this conversation.

(08:23):
For sure.
I wasn't able to. Had I known then what I know now, probably could have.
Yeah.
But so we know breastfeeding is important for a lot of reasons.
Yes.
If you can, it's great. You actually discussed some optimal bottle feeding techniques. So
when it comes to bottle feeding, what bottles and nipples do you most recommend and what

(08:47):
are some of the techniques you recommend?
Yeah. This is a big hill that I stand on because we all get it. Breastfeeding is great. And
I do both. I breast and bottle feed my babies. So this is not a debate whether breast and
which is better breast or bottle. Yeah.
But we can't continue like the rhetoric that all babies who bottle feed are going to have

(09:10):
these oral motor deficits like that.
Right.
So we need to move past that and start supporting a better oral motor development for these
babies. And so when we're looking at bottles, you can just ignore anything the box says
because bottles are not regulated and a company can say whatever they want about their bottle.

(09:35):
Nobody checks into that. Nobody says, oh, this advertising is 100% accurate. Right.
So all the boxes that say most like breasts, breast feed, we're ignoring that because it's
probably not true.
Just marketing.
Yeah.
Yes. It's just marketing. And the fact is that there is no bottle, not a single bottle

(09:58):
that will ever mimic a breast tissue. You can't do it. It's not going to happen. It
functions in a completely different way than a mechanical device. Right. But what we're
looking at is how we're feeding baby. Are we being responsive feeders with the bottle?

(10:20):
Because traditionally we put baby in a cradle hold and the bottle pops in and they're just
guzzling down. Right.
But when we look at responsive feeding, we're taking that away from the baby. We're waiting
until the bottle is empty. We're not listening to their cues. We're not even paying attention
to it. So outside of the bottle, how we're feeding baby matters. When you're looking

(10:45):
at the bottle itself, I have some because I have some of the bottles. We want a sloping
shape. Okay.
Okay.
So instead of the one that's kind of back curved in and then pops up.
Yes. Okay. So then you have, let me see if I have some around here. So this is a maim
bottle, which everyone knows and it's the flat nipple. Okay. And now I also tell moms,

(11:09):
it is not, if your baby drinks out of a sloping nipple, it doesn't mean there's not going
to have any motor deficits. And if your baby drinks out of a maim, it doesn't mean that
they will have deficits, but it does tell us something about the body because if your
baby cannot drink out of this kind of nipple, but they can, this one, it tells us that they're

(11:34):
having trouble with latching. Okay. Because the nipple is flat. They don't have to latch
around the nipple. They just rest on the tongue and then they munch on it. Okay. So your baby
did wonderful on the maim bottle. That's great. I'm never going to tell you, stop giving
them the maim, right? Because our number one goal is baby be fed. But I do want to encourage

(11:59):
that we're looking at the big picture. If you, if we're not interested in changing feeding,
what else is going on in their mouth? Are they breathing with it closed and nasal breathing
properly like that? We need to mark that off. Are they sleeping? Do they wake up while rested?
Are they waking up cranky, tired and mad? Then we're looking at quality versus quantity,

(12:20):
right? Of sleep. All right. So there's other things that we can look at, but the other
popular nipple, which is it's going to be like your standard wide neck nipple. So it's
going to come up and then it's going to shoot up, right? Okay. So you're traditional wide.
It's going to look like this, right? So it's got a big base and then it comes up into a
nipple, right? And when we talk about like most breasts, like we don't want your, when

(12:46):
you're breastfeeding, we don't want lips of like a smashed nipple, right? And the nook
bottles look like a lipstick nipple. Well, we don't want that when we're breastfeeding.
So it's just so strange. Anyway, so this is like your traditional wide neck, right? And
so there's one, eight different bottles now that look like those in some way, shape or
form. And what this does is really creates a narrow latch. Okay. So baby is not widening

(13:13):
their mouth on this piece, which is what we're wanting, wanting a deep wide latch, but they're
not getting to this piece. What happens when they get to this piece is they push up against
it, right? So their lips go on top of that wide piece instead of really flaring out.
And so now we have a really shallow kind of narrow latch and how hard is that to drink

(13:36):
from, right? Right. The other thing that could happen with these wide bottles is that they
latch on and that they do get a wide piece, but look at all that air that's in between
the latches, right? So you're latched here and then you're latched here and we have this
middle hunk of air just pulling in air. So when we're looking at what?

(13:57):
Which leads to all other issues. Yeah. So sloping, your sloping nipples are even
flow balance, pigeon, lancino, and they have a couple of others, but they'll all look like
this. The other thing that helps with feeding is like the texture of the nipple. Okay. You
can see this is very elastic and this would be considered more breast-like. However, what

(14:23):
I find is that because this mimics the outside of the breast, there's nothing inside that's
mimicking the breast tissue, right? So when baby is pulling on this, I find that baby
kind of struggle with the softer ones because when they're pulling, there's nothing for
them to push up against. Then it almost flattened and then they're pulling against it.

(14:48):
Yeah. Okay. So while we want a good wide shape to help
latch, right? For the tongue to cup, for the palate to be nice and wide and not narrow
against something, when we're looking at the texture, I want it to be a bit firmer because

(15:09):
that firmness, while they have a nice pretty latch, that firmness gets them something to
push up against, if that makes sense. Yeah. So that would make them work their jaw more,
right? Which is what we want. Yeah. I mean, yes, we want them pulling, right? And while
this is, it looks nice in action, it kind of defeats the process. Yeah. Yeah. It's missing

(15:32):
something. Now, a lot of babies do well on this and there's benefits to this kind of
bottle because you are getting that shape that you like and maybe a baby who is low
tone might do a little better on something that doesn't need as much input in order to
suck, right? So you're kind of looking at, again, at baby holistically versus just like

(15:54):
this is the one bottle that every baby needs to use. Even for balance, well, it's still
my favorite bottle ever. Okay. So and I've tried a lot. Yeah, I'm sure. Yeah. And so
how, if we're using the bottle, how can we prevent overfeeding? So we have to look at
that position, right? Because that matters because you're going to miss babies fullness

(16:18):
cues. If we're in cradle and we have the bottle down, babies in the crook of your arm, you're
missing their cues. And a lot of times parents are missing their cues because they're so
worried about baby finishing their bottle. Right. If we want to prevent-
Especially the jimmers, baby, right? Because it says they need this much every time. No.
If you're just going by that list. Yeah. Even the cans of formula stay zero to one month

(16:42):
should be drinking that. Yeah. From birth to one month. It's like God.
It's so frustrating though. And to be like a new mom and like you read the can and you're
like, well, my one day old isn't eating like this. Your two day old is not going to be
eating what a one month old eats. Such a big jump. It's so crazy to me. So first, like
we need to understand that finishing the bottle is not the goal. Yeah. Right. Like we always

(17:08):
have an idea about where we kind of want to sit with ounces, but finishing the bottle
isn't the goal. And a lot of times we're missing baby's cues because we're paying attention
to how much of the milk is left. And so, yeah, if your baby is in cradle, let me grab my
baby. It says Carl. Oh, Carl is beautiful. Good morning, Carl.

(17:31):
If you're here, like in our traditional cradle position, like baby has really limited movement
and you and you have a bottle pressed up against their mouth, right? But they're not going
anywhere. And so if they wanted to turn away to say, Hey, I'm full. I'm full. We're not
seeing that. Yeah. So, so we want baby to be in a sideline position. Okay. This goes for

(17:56):
forever. This is not a medical position. This is not a position that you use when they're
dung and learning. We always want them into this position. However you want to do it.
Okay. So parents can have them on their legs out like this. They can put a pillow on the
sofa and feed them. They can lean up against them like this. Okay. Those little body pillows.

(18:22):
So they're like elevated. Yeah. Yeah. And they're on their sideline, right? Right. And
as they get older, they'll end up sitting up. Yeah. And then you're just sitting them
up and eating. Okay. But they would have movement at that point. Yes. Yes. And the bottle is
always horizontal. We're always horizontal. Right. This should be a 90 degree angle. Okay.

(18:47):
And so this would be fine as they get older. I don't like the sitting up position when
they're young because we don't have this core strength. And so then they end up like this.
Right. Right. And that is so much pressure on that esophagus. So we're talking about
reflux and discomfort during feeding. I mean, that's like you wear on a tight pair of pants.

(19:09):
The thing's skibbon, right? You just got to open it up when you leave. So for overfeeding,
right, like to get all the way back, we go in a big circle. For overfeeding, we need
to have baby able to tell us their fullness cues. And we need, so them turning away, right?
Them slowing down. A lot of times when they're here too, we don't even notice the slowing

(19:32):
down because they're just, they have to keep sucking because the milk is just coming, right?
Whether they want it or not. We're missing those two big ones. And then we're, and then
stop paying attention to the ounces. Now, of course we want baby eating, but if they're not,
if they're stopping and they're showing you that we need to stop the feed and they're not getting

(19:54):
what they need to based on them not growing on their own curve, right? If you are born in the 30th
percentile, it's totally fine for you to stay in the 30th percentile. You don't need, it's not a test
score. We don't need to be all 100. Right. And you don't compare them to what the 90 is eating and
doing. Correct. It's completely different. Yeah. It's completely different. And so if your baby is

(20:20):
really lethargic or they're not having a lot of pee and poop diapers, if they're truly not getting
enough, but they're telling us they're done, that is, we need a feeding assessment. That's
telling us something's going on and we need somebody to look at it, not that we need to push
ounces. That's not the solution because then we have a baby. Yeah. We have a baby who's refluxing

(20:41):
all over the place and then what? And then it's just a whole another problem. Right. And again,
if you want to dig into this more, I encourage everyone to check out your Instagram and put
your mom guilt out because I'll tell you what, in this particular subject, because my two were so
different. I mean, they were both tiny little polypockets, but the way they fed was so different
and watching your Instagram, like I said earlier, man, if I had just known, as my youngest had issues

(21:09):
and we had to switch your formula and would do all these things. But wow, if I had just later on
her side and done a couple of other items that you touch. Yes. What would have been different?
Yes. Yeah. And it is, it's not just stressful for the mom, it's stressful for the baby.
Yes. So now we're back into that parasympathetic mode. We're all stressed and walking around just
all the time. Yeah. And like hating feeding time, like the countdown to when it's feeding time is

(21:34):
like you can feel the anxiety building up in the family dynamic. Right? Right. Because you know
what's going to happen when it's over. There's going to be spit up, there's going to be call
it cries and there's going to be anxiety and it's not fun. Yeah. It's rough. It is. But and we'll
also put a link for those that would like to get in contact with an IBCLC, the national link where

(21:56):
you can go find somebody in your area because it's huge and it can make a huge difference for you.
One of the things you talk about is cranial sacral therapy. And I know if for those who haven't
heard it in some of our other episodes, could you just briefly describe what it is and how it's
beneficial to babies, especially the ones? Yeah, sure. So cranial sacral. So I'm a speech pathologist

(22:18):
by like trade, I guess you would say that's what my master's degree is in. But when I found cranial
sacral therapy, when I became trained in that it changed my whole career and the way that I helped
these babies. So cranial sacral really is about energy and that might sound very woo-woo, but I

(22:39):
always like to encourage people like on a very base level is to just imagine the worst person
in the world and how they physically make you feel. You don't even have to touch them and the
physical change your body goes through when you think of them, right? That's energy versus the
person you love the most and how you relax and your whole body physically changes. And so whether

(23:07):
you believe in energy or not, it's impacting you every single day, all day long. And so cranial
sacral therapy really is about me as like the therapist and you go into the body and you're
using their own rhythm. So I find their rhythm and their energy and how they're responding

(23:29):
within their environment. And we sort of release where they're holding on to any kind of tension
or trauma. Surprisingly, like 99% of the time, whenever I tell the parents, oh, I'm feeling most
of their tension built up here and I go to this one spot of the baby, it is always where the mom

(23:54):
or the primary caregiver feels the most tension in their body. And I work with, I know, I work with
a pelvic floor physical therapist and sometimes we do co-treatments and I'll be working with baby
and I'll tell a parent at the end, this is the side and body part of what you to focus on when
we're looking at movement to help build safety in their body. And the pelvic floor therapist is,

(24:19):
well, mom, this is the side and spot of your body that I want you to focus on. And the way that they
match and mirror each other is just, it's like beautiful. And yeah, I tell parents all the time
who are like, well, where do I start? I was like, well, where do you feel the tension in your body
the most? That's where I would start with your baby because there's just so much correlation

(24:41):
between the two. And so cranial sacral is like the lightest touch ever. It's five grams of pressure.
And so if you have a food scale, you could go put five grams and it's just like the lightest touch.
But what it's doing is transferring that safe and that energy, releasing tension,

(25:02):
we're going into the body and binding where they're at and helping them move. You might also
hear cranial fascial therapy. And that is like a more movement based while cranial sacral is
using lots of energy and soft touch to go into the body. Facial movement uses a lot of physical

(25:25):
movement to release fascial tension because tension can be physical. So we can physically move it.
You see, I know all those people have seen those videos where they're like rubbing on the adult
back and turn to really, really red, right? So they're releasing fascial adhesions. We're not
doing that on the, it's so fascial adhesions can be physical, but they can also be energy and

(25:50):
emotional based. And so I kind of use a combination of the two because I am a speech therapist and I
do manual therapy, right? And so you might go to a cranial sacral session and they're literally
like just the lightest touch moving around on baby's body and releasing tension within. And then

(26:11):
you might go to a therapist like speech or occupational or physical therapist who's also
trained and they might include some bigger movements with their treatment. So it can look
a little different from provider to provider. But for babies, it's a beautiful thing because
they're again, like I said earlier, adults are so much more cognitive that they put all of that

(26:35):
awareness and what they know on top of those emotions. Whereas babies are not that way. And
they will, they are so open to being free and letting go. And I love treating babies because
they tell me right away where they're hurting and we go there and we can treat it and we can release
it. We see progress. We continue that, right? For adults, goodness gracious, sometimes you

(26:59):
gotta like, that's a lot of onion repealing that for a right. And they have to be open and willing.
And for babies, they already just are. So if you are struggling with attention patterns,
like your baby always looks one way or they're having constipation or they're having feeding

(27:20):
difficulties, like we're getting the feeding assessment, right? But sometimes unfortunately,
those feeding assessments just aren't, they're not looking at the whole baby. And sometimes they're
looking at, they watch baby eat and they're like, well, it looks okay, but they're not feeling baby.
They're not getting in the mouth. They're not feeling their body. They're not building the

(27:43):
connection with where the breakdown is. And so get the feeding assessment. They have to get in
baby's mouth, right? Do a feeding assessment without getting in the mouth and feeling the
muscles and learning what they're doing. And so many parents get feeding assessments that are just
not, it's just unfortunate and it's sad because as professionals, I'm like,

(28:05):
get the assessment, get the assessment. And these poor parents are getting the assessment and it's
just doing nothing. You're listening to Airway First with today's guest, Mallory Roberts. You

(28:36):
can find out more about the Children's Airway First Foundation and our mission to fix before six
on our website at childrensairwayfirst.org. The CAF website offers tons of great resources for
both parents and medical professionals. In our parents portal and clinicians corner areas,
you can find educational and informational content, including videos,

(28:57):
logs, our recommended reading lists, comprehensive medical research, podcasts, events,
parent support, and several educational opportunities. Parents are also encouraged to
join the Airway Huddle, our Facebook support group, which was created for parents of children
with Airway and sleep-related issues. You can access the Airway Huddle support group at

(29:19):
facebook.com backslashgroups backslashairwayhuddle. Are you a medical professional or a parent that
is interested in being a guest on the show? Then shoot us a note via our contact page on our
website or send us an email directly at infoatchildrensairwayfirst.org. As a reminder,
this podcast and the opinions expressed here are not a medical diagnosis. If you suspect your child

(29:43):
might have an airway issue, contact your pediatric airway dentist or pediatrician.
And now let's jump back into my interview with today's guest, Mallory Roberts.

(30:19):
And off to the nurses that help us in the hospital right after we have the baby.
Yes. But they aren't trained the same way as this group is, and that's why we want you to go to
this group. Yeah, for sure. And even like when you're looking at therapists, you know, out of
school, I can treat feeding disorders as a speech pathologist, but they're not a training, an extra

(30:41):
training I did for infant feeding. It just is way different. And it's not the same. And so
I always encourage parents, if you're calling like a therapist group, do you work specifically with
infant feeding? Because you can work on feeding disorders, but a two year old feeding disorder

(31:02):
is way different than a newborn. Yeah, for sure. I just went all, yeah, I went all the way around.
I don't even remember what the question was. No, you did. That was awesome. We did a great deal.
And that's awesome. But before we leave cranial facial or cranial sacral, rather, I just want
parents to know I'm going to put a link in the bio, the show notes, rather, that the Dr. Stephen
Hall's book. He also was, I think, our second or third episode. Okay. If you haven't checked it out,

(31:28):
he does a great job explaining it. And he's up in Seattle. And this is what he does. And it is,
I'm saying this as somebody with a science degree. There is, it's science back and it's not
completely woo-woo fascinating, absolutely fascinating and worth exploring. Yeah, it's
life changing. For sure. Yes, life changing for sure. It really, really is. So, okay, now let's

(31:49):
talk a little bit about nasal hygiene because especially as new moms, we all got that little
sucker in your home kit, right? I think we spent like 15 minutes on it during our prenatal classes,
but there's so much more to it. So, really, what is nasal hygiene and how does it relate to and why

(32:10):
it's so important for oral development? Yeah. You are meant to breathe through your nose only.
We are not meant to be mouth breathers. The nose has certain systems in place, right, to filter air,
to aid in your health. And so, your chronic mouth breathers, when we're looking at

(32:34):
upper respiratory infections and things like that, it matters. And so, nasal hygiene is simply,
it's like brushing your teeth. And sometimes they're like, why don't brush my infant seat?
Well, you should. Like getting a little washcloth and wiping the gums down, there's,
I'm a proponent of that. And so, the same goes for nasal hygiene. We should be doing that daily.

(33:00):
You can, those little saline nose drops, right? Yeah. You drop them in. The big piece that people
miss, though, is that we want baby to be swallowing those, we want it to be going down the whole airway
track. Yeah. It's got to go the whole way, yeah. The whole way. And so, when you drop those nose
drops and then we suction it, it just, the whole purpose. It needs to go all the way back. Because

(33:28):
that is a big space. And so, we're dropping those drops. And if baby can be hanging off the edge
of your leg, right? Just a little incline and you drop them. And you just wait a couple seconds
and you will see them swallow. It's like, it's really interesting thing to watch. And so,
it's true because you don't think about, there's a hole back there. And it's money that gets scoped

(33:49):
frequently. I'm used to it now, but the first time they go up and back and you're realizing,
wait, you're in my throat. You came this way. It takes you a minute to go through a biology
and you realize you thought it was like this, but there's a hole back there. It's a hole cavity.
Yeah. Just let those drops go all the way back because there is a lot of space back there.
Yes. That you're just not getting. Correct. It's true. And you're suctioned on the other side of

(34:16):
the back. The sucker's not getting back there. And the sucker also, I mean, that's a lot of pressure
in the nasal cavity. And so, I tell parents, if you don't see snot and if you can't get it with
your finger, don't use it because you're putting a lot of pressure in that space and it can cause
inflammation into the tissues if you use it too much. It's scary. It's intense. It's scary. Yeah.

(34:41):
For a little person, it's unnerving for them. And a lot of times they're doing the nose drops and
then they get the sucker. And what babies are doing is they're linking those drops to the trauma
that's about to happen with that sucker. And so now we're tense and yeah. And then in all reality,
like the drops itself are fine. They don't mind the drops. And so, using the drops by themselves,

(35:08):
of course, the sucker is there when you need it. But it's not, most of the time it's not.
For our babies with reflux, when they are refluxing, it's going into that giant airway space.
Okay. And so, I always encourage parents when you, a baby refluxes or you hear them reflux,
give them a little support in that airway and do a little nasal hygiene. Help them clear it out.

(35:33):
As your kid gets older, like I teach my kids do their own drops now, but then move their
head around, right? Because that space is wide in there. If that drop, let it slosh around in there,
right? And then it can be really clearing up. Basically gargling. Yeah. Gargling your nose.
Yeah, exactly. And I've seen you talk about that. I'm going to steal that. Do it. It's all yours.

(35:58):
I've seen you talk about this, but I want to make sure you say it on here. Nettie pots.
Uh-huh. How are you feeling about a Nettie pot? Just watching your face. I already know the answer,
but let's talk about Nettie pots because we hear a lot about them. Yeah. I think that it's pretty
much like a suction device, right? Because it's only getting, now you see these videos, we're just

(36:19):
so much not comes out. And it's pretty intense. It's intense. My goal is to never put that much
stress. And I don't, I want to keep this area safe, if that makes sense. They're intense. That's all I
can say. I'm not going to tell you that you can't use it. And if you've been using them and you love

(36:42):
them, I can't say stop. Right. But like, yeah, there's a better way. I would say there's a better
way. And in a very more non-invasive way. And a lot, and that's a lot for me to say because people
are like, well, what you do in the math is so invasive. Right. And I'm like, so. Yeah, but it's
not traumatic. You're not in there. Yes. Exactly. You're giving it a huge sound and pressure and

(37:06):
it's different. It's the pressure that really bothers me. And I mean, of course, I had it done
to myself because I never do anything to my babies that I don't do to myself. That includes like what
they drink and what they eat. Like I've tried all the formula because I want to know what their
experience is, right? Which you can't really know because everybody's experience is different with

(37:29):
everything. But in terms of like how it feels in your body, it's just so intense. And I have to
say in all fairness, I think we've all tried the formula in the restaurant. So let's all just come
out and admit it. We've all done it. It's like your first kid, you're curious. You're there.
You're tired. Yeah. Let's see. Let's just see. And I tried a neti pot and I assumed it was because

(37:52):
I'm just freakishly skittish about that stuff. I mean, this isn't an outing, right? Things have
come out. This is not an in-eval. So I was already freaked out to start. Yeah. So in all fairness,
I probably am not a good candidate. But yeah, that's not a good one for me. But you put that,
like you put that psychological bad already on it. Exactly. But the drops, it's fine. Yes.

(38:15):
Drops are fine. I will say too, though, spray can even be intense. Okay. It can't. It can't.
And that took me a while to get used to. But now, I'm okay with spray. Okay. But the neti...
Just to put that out there for me. For children, for babies, I would not do a spray. Goodness gracious.

(38:36):
They're so intense. Well, and they have to learn spray. That's hard to teach a tiny person. Yes.
Right? That movement, that little deal you have to do because otherwise it's just coming out.
I think we've all experienced that as well. Just watching it drain. Oh, yeah. Yeah. The neti...

(38:57):
Yeah, I don't know. I mean, a lot of times people are like, if you're baby, if you do it on your
baby and they're calm and they're fine with it, they keep doing it. I just... Anyway, that's my
thoughts on it. I'm right there with you. All right. So now let's talk about the ears. Okay.
Because we know that the ears are going to impact the child, especially with their state

(39:18):
of relaxation. And somehow you can ease digestion with this. Again, it's on your Instagram. That's
why I need to ask this. Let's talk about that so parents know what that looks like. And this is
another tool they can have in their toolbox. Okay. So the ears are... I love the ears. Okay.
The ears don't get enough credit. And when we're looking at the ears and the spaces in the skull,

(39:43):
right, they're connected to the throat too. A lot of people don't know that. And so when I talk about
feeding and the tongue and the ear connection, it's huge. There's literally... The elevation of the
back of the tongue is how you can drain the ear. There's a muscle responsible for that. And so

(40:07):
when we're talking about a baby with low tongue posture and they're never elevating the posterior
tongue because of tension or because of a restriction, we're getting those chronic ear
infections. And what I love about making this connection for people is because so often
bottle feeding gets blamed for chronic ear infections when really babies moved to the bottle

(40:33):
because they couldn't breastfeed, they couldn't breastfeed because they had oral deficits. Right?
Now they're getting the ear infections because they have oral deficits. That has nothing to do
with them using the bottle. Right? And that just... It's hard that they're laying down and giving them
a bottle of the good ear infection. And that... No. It's mind-blowing for some. And it really

(40:54):
helps build that connection between what happened right at the beginning and how things can snowball
into their own individual issues when it's one big issue. It all goes back to what was happening
with baby in the beginning. Yes. In the mouth. And so with that connection with the tongue and

(41:16):
feeding and function of the ear, and you get this connection to the jaw too. They're stacked on top
of each other. So for having tension being cold here, when we're looking at babies with torticolis,
imagine all the tension being pulled on one side. What is that doing to the function of the ear?
So then why does that matter outside of ear infections? Well, then we're looking at the vagus

(41:41):
nerve. And the vagus nerve, we know, is stimulated with palate input. Right? That's why the tongue
needs to sit up there. But there's a branch of the vagus nerve that we can reach through the
ears and input in the ears. And this is why acu... This goes way back. Acupuncturists have been
doing the ears for as long as the world has been here. Years have always been there. They've always

(42:06):
been a gateway into helping the body calm. And so getting in the ear, when I say get in the ear,
we're not putting our finger in the ear, right? Your fingers never going in the ear.
Your ear, nothing goes in the ear. Your Q tips that you like, those shouldn't even be going in
the ear. Again, this is an Audi nut and in it. So there's nothing in there. And so when we're

(42:28):
talking about getting in the ear, I'm talking about energy. I'm talking about placing movement there
and moving. Just give it some movement. You will see how I've had adults, of course,
every time I post something for babies, I love the adults who come back and say,
oh my God, I did this to myself. You should absolutely do it on yourself. There is nothing

(42:50):
I give you to do to your child that you shouldn't do to yourself. Because you absolutely should.
I want you to be able to feel, I give face massage all the time. I want you to feel what it's doing
before you do it to them. Absolutely. And so when you're doing the ears, if it's painful,
that only tells me that there's tension somewhere in that space that needs to be resolved.

(43:14):
Go lighter. We're not going to pain here. Right? Right. Movement shouldn't be painful.
And you should be able to move your body without pain in all parts of your body,
should move without pain. And when you move and there is discomfort, that's telling you, hey,

(43:35):
pay attention to the spot over here because it's not optimal. And so I love working in the ears
and babies will melt when you move their ears. Adults will melt when you move their ears.
It's soothing. Because it's that connection piece.
I'm not going to lie. I've done it after some of your videos, because especially,
too, I used to have pain back here. Yes.

(43:57):
Touch it. I couldn't touch it. I would just, I would jump.
Correct. I can touch it now.
Uh-huh. And people will come back. Well, when I touch it, it hurts so bad. And I'm like, well,
then you should sit in that space a bit. He says, it should not hurt. There is nothing that should
hurt from touch. I had that for years.
Like you should not touch any part of your body.

(44:20):
And just one hair. Yes.
Isn't that amazing? It is amazing. It's wild. It really is.
And so yeah, I, yeah, I always, I mean, I love the ears and you just go start with the lightest
touch ever because again, babies are so responsive and they will tell you everything you need to
know about them. And you could touch any part of their body. I encourage parents to lightly go

(44:45):
across their baby's body, going down their spine. And if you see a twinge, don't ignore that.
They are telling you something's there. Sit in that spot. Give it some movement. Go lighter
if you need to go lighter. But movement is a response telling us that we need to pay attention.

(45:07):
And they, and it's funny too, because they all have different touch points. Not the right word.
I get soothing spots. Yes.
And it's funny to watch them change too, because for example, when my youngest was little,
I don't even know why I was just messing with her feet one day and it's this kid turns to jello.
Yes. And so I figured out, well, yeah, sure spot. Well, now she doesn't like her feet touch,

(45:28):
but it's when you were a baby, it was like, you could instantly just,
yeah, it wasn't the same for my first one. Her place was different. I mean, everybody's is,
yeah, and they are different. Just watch them. Yeah, watch them. They will tell you,
this is it. This is what I like. This is what I don't like. Yeah, it works.
You get the opposite too. You'll feel them sort of melt into that. Like you touch and they sort of

(45:51):
just melt into it. And you're like, whoa, this is where I like that. Yeah, exactly.
That's just the feet. And literally all I would have to do is just put my thumb top of their foot
here, the thumb on the bottom. I'm not even putting pressure. And that's all I would do.
And she was just asleep. That was it. She was done. No pressure, right? You're using
craniosacral therapy. And I didn't even know. You didn't even know it.

(46:13):
And it's funny doing these when we're talking about the spaces, how it's all connected.
Remember when we were all in high school and you always had that one kid in class going,
when will I ever use this? Yeah.
Yeah, I mean, my friend, this is when you're going to use your biology right here. Parenting.
You had no idea. You had no idea. Right. All right. So now let's talk a little bit more about
oral movements because you have on your Instagram. And the fact that I've mentioned this like 15 times

(46:37):
should be a cute appearance. Please go. But you talk about oral movements or this oral plan.
Yeah. Specifically around the wake up routine. So let's talk about what is this and what are
the benefits? So I like a wake up routine. Some people really hate that because I don't know.
The wake up routine that I talk about is just to get awareness. Right? Okay. So when we've been

(47:02):
sleeping, what do you do when you wake up? You move, you stretch your body, you yawn, right?
That's to open up that jaw. You go and then you go what? You brush your teeth, you eat,
you start talking. Babies don't do that. And even as adults, like having an oral movement routine as

(47:25):
like you go brush your teeth and then you learn some of these oral movements that are in the guide,
parents have come back and been like, it's been my changing. I didn't even know I had tension in
my jaw until you start to release that tension and you feel better. Right. And so for babies,
all we're doing is providing them that movement to help function because these are all muscles.

(47:49):
The tongue is a muscle. The cheek is a muscle. The lips are a muscle. And for any muscle in the
body, movement helps function. It's that simple. And your tongue, by the way, goes all the way down.
All the way back. It's connected though, all the way down so that. Oh, yeah. Yes. So your tongue
muscle ends here, right? Like the muscle itself. Your fashion. Which is this connective tissue

(48:14):
that lays over your entire body, but they have fascial lines. And this one piece of inner webbed
fascial tissue is starts at the tongue and goes all the way down, goes through your diaphragm,
through your stomach, right? Through your hips, down to your knees, into each toe, like down each
leg into the toes. So it separates and then goes down. And so that is one line, right? And so

(48:40):
when we're talking about waking up, giving movement into that space will only help release.
You can feel it everywhere. It's just a beautiful thing. And it's so easy to do. And once you get
comfortable with it, like some parents are just like, I just don't feel comfortable putting that
finger in it. It just feels so invasive for them. And I would say to that is, is like, one, do it

(49:07):
on yourself because I think that will help you feel the differences. And I think that's important.
But to watch your baby, they will tell you if it's too invasive for them, right? And if they are
telling you like, stop, then we need to pull back. We need to look at their movements. We need to make
sure that they're not holding tension somewhere. Maybe they're telling us something, right?

(49:31):
Something's going on. Yeah. Yes. So if you're in the mouth, it's, I love doing, like when my baby
wakes up and we wake up and we go in, it's, she's laughing and she's smiling and we're engaging
and she's starting to move the tongue and you can see it wake up and you can see it. Okay,
I'm ready to go, right? Because what do we then do? They want to eat. And so I want to give them

(49:54):
some movement, release some of that tension because they've been sleeping like this all night long,
right? So let's, they're trying to open up that line. So let's help them open up that line all
the way down to the toes. It's just, I love it. And when I teach parents it, when they watch me do it,

(50:17):
they're like, oh, I see it. And we're like, yes, it doesn't have to be this like scary. There's so
much information about oral play and how it's, it can be aversive and how it can just damage the baby.
Well, then you're doing it wrong. Right? And then that's all I can say because it shouldn't be.

(50:38):
And it's a way to directly impact how the tongue is functioning. It's a way to directly see
where we need to focus. And if we need some support as a parent, do we need to bring them to
someone to help them function? Not just in feeding because the tongue is responsible for, like I said,
right? Digestion, it's responsible for regulation. It's responsible for the way the palate and the

(51:03):
face shapes. It's responsible for draining the ears. Like it's got so much responsibility. Why would we
not treat it with a little some respecting and give it some movement? Right? And it's Dr.
Clairsdags. It all starts here. Everything you're doing in your body starts here and your

(51:24):
health span you're setting your child up for for a life. Yes. Yes. Why are we not engaging with it?
Would be a better question. If it's so important, why do we ignore it? Right? As we didn't know.
Yeah. Yeah. But also because people are telling you not to, well, don't do that because they're
going to drink, they're not going to want to eat or they're going to be scared or they're going to

(51:46):
have oral aversion. No. Yeah. No. Yeah. That's not going to happen. Yeah. All right. So I will
put a link to that on there, but I'm also going to put a link to your habit track. Oh, okay. Great.
Yeah. So let's talk about that for just a few minutes. What is this and how is it? Yeah. So I
actually use it and I created it because somebody was like, I just can't get it in a routine. There's

(52:06):
just a rhythm and I know that the oral play helps. Like when I do it, I see change in my baby,
but I just can't get into a routine. And so habit stacking is really important for me to lose. So
I have four kids, eight to four months old, it's chaos and I totally get it. And so like habit
stacking is how I get these things in. Like we do nasal hygiene, oral activities every single day

(52:33):
with teeth brushing. That is what I have habits stacked it to. Everyone, everyone can agree that
they brush their teeth. Right. Nobody disagrees with that process. And so we all do it. So since
we all do that, we're all in front of the mirror. We're always in the bathroom doing it. Let's habit

(52:54):
stack it. Meaning we're also going to have our nasal drop sitting next to the toothbrush. Each kid
has their own little name on it. Right. So they know which one is theirs. And then we're going to
have this habit tracker. And as your kids get older, you're not in there with them brushing
their teeth anymore. Right. So my oldest is eight. He goes into the bathroom, he does his routine,

(53:17):
and he's checking off his stretches and oral activities himself. And the six year old is
getting better at it. The four year old and the infant, I'm in the bathroom in front of the mirror
and we're doing it together. But you're in there with them brushing their teeth. So at 30 seconds,
right, this is not meant to be a 30 minute activity. We are meant to be there. I mean,

(53:39):
max maybe three minutes, right. So well, two minutes brushing your teeth. So maybe five.
You do your nasal drops is 10 seconds. And you're as they get better at the activities,
it gets quicker. They can start doing it themselves. And it gets easier. But when you have an infant,
like we're sitting in the mirror and I'm doing her activity, I would say I do it for 60 seconds.

(54:03):
It also depends on what she is, right. Because if she's a little overtired, I might just go
in, do a little quick thing and then we're leaving. The key is that we always are doing it.
Because that's how you build habit one, but that's also how you build the expectation that this is
what we do. What you do. We brush teeth, we do our nose and we do our stretch because this is how

(54:23):
we keep our body healthy. And as they get older too, you can start talking to them about, well,
why do we do these stretches, right? Because our tongue needs to sit on the top of our mouth.
And we need to be relaxed in that space because our brain needs to feel good so that we can get
strong and you can start talking to them about it. They are very smart. Which is huge. Yes. And

(54:43):
then is they are going to want to be a part of it. And it's funny when I heard you talk about this
the first time, and I think a lot of people do this, right? You try to relate to it. And I flash
back to moments with my oldest when she was two and three and four. And you don't realize, I miss
those moments every evening when we would go in together because it was just us. And she'd get
on that stool and she's brushing her teeth and watching her face and we're talking. And

(55:07):
you look, it's actually such a precious, just little microcosm of your day. Yes. But she talked.
We could talk about things. And I'm thinking, wow, if I had known about all this,
we could have been talking about these things because she's so relaxed and open.
Yes. And it was not a big deal. And we're singing songs. And yes, you make it enjoyable. Then,

(55:27):
yes, they're going to respond to it. And then now they're eight, nine, 10, and they're doing it on
their own. Correct. Yeah. It's not we're holding them down and we're like putting our hands in their
mouth. Because then they're not going to do it, right? So try to enjoy it. It's good. Let's go do it.
It's just, and then of course, you're going to have nights where they're like, no, no, right?
That's a toddler. I mean, a 15, 18 month old, or like the worst age, goodness gracious,

(55:52):
but they're no, and they learn it and you're like, but then you come up with your strategies.
Okay. Well, we can, what song do you want to sing while we do our stretches? Or what number do you
want to count to? Because they just want that little piece of control, right? We're telling them,
we have to do this in this, but, and they're just trying to pull some control. So give them some,

(56:14):
give them an option. And it's the point is like, well, we're doing it, but how can we make this
where you are understanding the importance, but also not screening because that defeats the whole
purpose, right? And then they're stressed in there. You're stressed in here. We're talking about,
right? And everybody's got to go get cranial sacral and it's just the big, it's just,

(56:36):
so at the end of every episode, I always hand it back to you, our guests, because
you are the expert. And I ask for your final thought that you want to leave our parents.
Yeah. Oh my gosh. We talked about a lot of stuff.
We did. And by the way, and I'll say it again, we talked about this much and your Instagram is
like this much. Please go check it out. We talked about a lot of stuff. I guess I, I always just

(57:00):
want to stress like the mouth is, it just doesn't, it's so important and it can really change your
child's whole trajectory of their life. And that's not even like putting it mildly. Everything,
how they're regulated is so big, right? The tongue needs, I don't care what,

(57:21):
who else someone is saying, but the tongue needs to be up on the palate space with them
breathing through their nose. But on the flip side, let's not become obsessive with it, right?
So many parents are they're going to hear this and they're going to say, well, my baby's a
mouth breather. It's going to impact their whole life. Yes. But here's these strategies that

(57:42):
we're going to do. We're going to start to implement these things. It's going to, it's going to take
time and that's okay. We can only do what we can do and we can only do with what the information
you have, right? We're not going to spiral because that can happen. And we're going to take

(58:02):
these little tidbits. We're going to start watching our babies more. We're going to start
incorporating these things because now we are aware of the importance of the mouth and how it
can impact their life. And that was the biggest step to me. That's the biggest hurt.
Is the awareness part, it's like, no, right? Once you know it and then you can either see it in your

(58:23):
child and go, oh, mouth breather, got it. Or now understand it and you look at your child and go,
nope, this one's okay. Let's just build. Yes. And knowing and understanding that's the biggest
hurdle. Yeah. And that, like, great. Now you have this information. I just so many times parents
are messaging me. My baby is, my, you know, my eight month old is, I just realized he's the

(58:45):
mouth breather. He's been doing his whole life and it's just like going down the spiral of all
these things that now it's clicking. Oh, this is why you couldn't do this. And this is why you
couldn't do this. And this is why you couldn't do this. And this is why you couldn't do this. And
every parent will have that moment. First, it's okay. Like we can, we are where we are right now.
Right. You can't go back. Here's where we are. How do we move forward?

(59:06):
We can go forward and we can go forward slowly and it's not going to be an overnight fix. It will
not be an overnight fix. No, no, that's the other thing. There's never a fixed fix for this. No.
It's a process. It's a process. Because, yes, you are training your body, you are
unlearning their body to learn something new. And that's hard. That's hard. So, but we have,

(59:28):
there's things we're doing and we're doing the best we can and we love our children and
my kids will still like, they'll be watching TV. If you don't put your tongue, it's supposed to be.
Yeah. And they all have like devices. We call them devices in our family and they're really just,
is anybody familiar with the myo-munchie? I was about to say the myo-munchie. Yep.
So they're dupes for the myo-munchie. They're just toothbrushes, those U-shaped toothbrushes.

(59:53):
Yeah. I can't help off and I put those in between your teeth.
And they, I was like, go get your device. Because sometimes we, as adults, we need reminders, right?
Look how I'm sitting the whole time. Sit up, right? I don't know how many times a day I catch
myself doing this. You catch yourself, right? More comfortable. Yeah. So, it's like your body
goes into path of least resistance. Yeah. Like, yeah. And so it takes time and it's okay that

(01:00:19):
they need reminders and it's okay that you go get in slumps, right? We'll just get right back up and
we'll make it better. It's okay. That's my message. It is okay. Just breathe. Yeah. Breathe.
Well, I can tell you it was an absolute delight to have you on. I'm so glad I've been looking forward
to this. So thank you for coming on and sharing so much. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me.

(01:00:40):
Thank you. Thanks again to today's guests, Mallory Roberts, for being on the show and to each of you
for listening to today's episode. You can stay connected with the Children's Airway First Foundation
by following us on Instagram, Facebook, X, LinkedIn, and YouTube. Don't forget to subscribe to the

(01:01:02):
Airway First podcast on your favorite podcasting platform so you won't miss an upcoming episode.
If you'd like to be a guest or have an idea for an upcoming show, shoot us a note via the
contact page on our website or send us an email directly at infoatchildrensairwayfirst.org.
Today's episode was written and directed by Rebecca St. James, video editing and promotion by Ryan

(01:01:25):
Draughan, and guest outreach by Christy Bochinkan. And finally, thanks to all the parents and medical
professionals out there that are working hard to help make the lives of kids around the globe
just a little bit better. Take care, stay safe, and happy breathing, everyone.

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S8:E82 - Mallory Roberts: Oral Mapping, Bottle Feeding, and Nasal Hygiene for Babies

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}S8:E82 - Mallory Roberts: Oral Mapping, Bottle Feeding, and Nasal Hygiene for Babies