June 20, 2025 • 36 mins
Congressional hearing rooms aren't typically where you'd expect to hear about recovered non-human biologics or pilots being harassed into silence about UFO encounters. Yet in July 2023, that's exactly what happened when three credible witnesses testified under oath before the House Oversight Committee.
The 2023 UAP hearings represent a seismic shift in how our government addresses unidentified aerial phenomena. Former intelligence officer David Grusch shocked lawmakers with claims of decades-long crash retrieval programs and recovered non-human biologics, while describing the "corporate terrorism" whistleblowers face for speaking out. Navy Commander David Fravor detailed his encounter with a massive "Tic Tac" object displaying impossible technological capabilities during a 2004 training mission. Former Navy pilot Ryan Graves advocated for the 95% of pilots who see something but report nothing, fearing career suicide for simply telling the truth.
What makes these hearings truly remarkable is their bipartisan nature. Representatives from across the political spectrum expressed unified outrage at the Pentagon's pattern of concealing information not just from the public, but from Congress itself. The testimony revealed sensitive UAP documents being unnecessarily classified, witnesses being intimidated, and a systematic effort to keep these phenomena hidden from proper oversight.
These hearings aren't just about strange lights in the sky – they're about government accountability, national security, and airspace safety. When multiple military witnesses testify under oath about objects with capabilities far beyond any known human technology regularly penetrating restricted airspace around nuclear installations, it demands serious attention. The question now isn't whether something extraordinary is happening in our skies, but rather why certain elements within our government have worked so desperately to keep it hidden.
Looking for more? Our next episode will tackle the even more explosive 2024 hearings potentially the mysterious "Immaculate Constellation" document that the Pentagon tried to deny existed. Subscribe or follow us now and join us as we continue untangling the biggest story in human history – one government hearing at a time.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Travis (00:04):
aliens yes but maybe no.
Welcome to the show.
Aliens, yes, but maybe no withjosh and travis.
I'm travis and I'm josh.
(00:26):
This is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title.
So welcome back, josh.
Thank you, I mean, I'll welcomemyself into your lovely home
are you trying to get me towelcome you?
Josh (00:38):
yes, I didn't welcome you.
I was welcome to my home, leanon that pretty hard.
Travis (00:41):
Thank you for following the cues.
Yeah, it's been two weeks sinceour last record.
We had to take two weeks offbecause the last one was so
heated.
Yeah, it's been a while.
Josh (00:51):
Yeah, it has, and we talked about the hollow moon.
Travis (00:53):
Yes, we did.
Josh (00:54):
You were the sweetest I've ever seen you.
Travis (00:57):
Thank you for saying that, but I would disagree.
That was probably the mostheated I've been on this podcast
to date.
I still feel worked up, stillfeel pretty triggered about it.
Josh (01:07):
I forgot about it completely.
Travis (01:08):
Very cool, as you want to do, classic Josh.
Yep Easy going Easy cheesylemon squeezy.
Josh (01:15):
So the hollow moon, we talked about that.
We both agreed that it ishollow, it is a spaceship, All
right, all right.
Travis (01:22):
You're ramping me up, man Sweating.
We did not agree.
I think we had very dichotomoustakes on that.
Josh (01:31):
That's true.
At the end of it, though, wedid a test, yeah.
Travis (01:35):
As we do.
One thing I do remember we'removing on past Halloween, right,
right, okay.
Josh (01:40):
At the end of each episode we do a baseline quiz for our
next episode, just because wedon't really know what we're
going to talk about.
Travis (01:46):
Yeah, that's kind of what keeps the show exciting for
us.
Yes, is not knowing what we'regoing to be covering on the next
episode until we get the quiz.
Yes, by our anonymousresearcher whose name rhymes
with Borden Gordon Torden, maybeFjorden, yep, our researcher.
Fjorden, yep, our researcher.
Fjorden From Norway, yep Fromthe North.
Josh (02:05):
Yep, there's actually a race of Nordic aliens, just so
you know.
Travis (02:09):
Okay, are you introducing a new theme?
Josh (02:11):
No, no, I'm just saying our researcher might actually be
an alien, okay.
Travis (02:15):
Well, she's doing a very good job, she is.
Josh (02:18):
Yeah, so this last baseline quiz, it was about the
congressional hearings that'sbeen going on since 2022.
Travis (02:28):
There was one question that made you laugh.
Yeah, I thought it was so funny.
And turns out, the funny answerwas the right one.
Josh (02:34):
Yeah, the immaculate conception.
Travis (02:36):
That's what I thought the joke was was that it was so
close to immaculate conception.
Josh (02:41):
Yes, what's it actually called?
I forget.
Travis (02:44):
Constellation.
That's what it was ImmaculateConstellation.
Josh (02:47):
Yeah, oh boy, I've been really interested in that and
our researcher has forbade mefrom learning anything about it
because we are going to end updoing an episode on it by itself
because it's such a big thing.
Okay, that was part of thebaseline quiz for this episode.
It's a document that thegovernment said did not exist,
(03:08):
and then documents came out andit does exist.
So they caught the Pentagonlying about something really big
.
We are not going to be talkingabout the congressional hearing
that the ImmaculateConstellation was in.
Travis (03:20):
What else aren't we going to be talking about today?
Let's just start listing thosethings.
Josh (03:23):
Yeah, the rash on my back that I've been showing many
people.
Travis (03:29):
That was uncalled for, Josh.
No, we're not going to talkabout it.
I just did a spit take.
Josh (03:35):
Yeah, we're not going to talk about it, so now, my coffee
is off limits.
Travis (03:38):
Do you want to see it?
Josh (03:39):
No, so what we're going to talk about is mainly the 2023
congressional hearing.
Travis (03:46):
Okay, so you had said there was one in 2022.
Josh (03:48):
There was one, okay, and that one was historic.
Travis (03:52):
Same players in that one or different, different.
Okay.
Josh (03:56):
So the 2022 House Intelligence, counterterrorism,
counterintelligence andCounterproliferation
Subcommittee hearing it's amouthful that happened on May
17th 2022.
And it was the first publichearing on UFOs since 1966.
And that hearing, I believe,was to end Project Blue Book,
(04:17):
which was the project and theorganization that was
researching since Roswell.
Basically, okay, right, right.
The primary focus for thishearing was to address concerns
about uaps as a potential threatto national security.
So it's kind of just like okay,we're here, these things are
happening, basically to startthe ball rolling, to get the
(04:39):
ball started to roll the ballwell, and it's like like just
fixated on one word yes, justget it out.
Balls.
Good, but yeah, they're justtrying to get the ball rolling
and it worked because we endedup having another hearing and
then another.
Travis (04:56):
More information coming for future podcasts.
We'll probably talk about themost recent one once we've had
time to, and the 2024 one.
Josh (05:04):
We're going to do it.
Travis (05:04):
the next episode, oh damn Spoiler for the quiz.
There is no quiz.
Oh no, I mean, yay, it's goodfor me, you get to finally leave
this podcast on a high note.
Yeah, so let's back up beforewe get into this.
Let's talk about some of thebig players that are in the 2022
hearings.
Josh (05:21):
It was the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence and
Security, Ronald S Moultrie, andthe Pentagon's top intelligence
official and Deputy Director ofNaval Intelligence, Scott Bray.
Travis (05:33):
Those were the witnesses called to testify in the 2022
hearings.
Josh (05:37):
Right and the key takeaways included a significant
increase in the reported UAPsightings, growing to
approximately 400 from theprevious year.
The Pentagon's commitment toinvestigating the the reported
UAP sightings growing toapproximately 400 from the
previous year.
The Pentagon's commitment toinvestigating the origins of
UAPs there's no evidence tosuggest extraterrestrial origin.
At least 11 near misses betweenUAPs and US aircrafts had
(05:58):
happened.
The need for a standardizedprocess for civilian reporting
of UAP sightings.
And the hearing was alsofollowed by a closed classified
session, which I would love tohave been a part of.
Travis (06:10):
So reading from this Wikipedia page, from this
hearing, it said that Scott Brayhad stated that the number of
frequent and continuing reportedsightings had grown to about
400 since last year's mandatedreport, which we just talked
about.
He also cast out the notionthat the UFOs had
extraterrestrial origins,testifying that no organic,
inorganic material orunexplainable wreckage indicated
.
So so that is in pretty starkcontrast with what the 2023
(06:35):
hearings brought us.
Right, yeah, big, because MrGrush had said that they did
find non-human life forms withinthese downed craft.
Right, yeah, he used the wordbiologics.
He said biologics because healso went and asked point blank
why he's saying it's notextraterrestrial but non-human,
(06:56):
and he's like, well, becausethat's what we know.
We don't know them to beextraterrestrial, we just know
them to be non-human.
Right, but he did say biologicsquite a bit.
Josh (07:05):
Yeah, he was, as he should , be very careful with his words
.
So that's kind of what thisfirst subcommittee hearing was
about.
It kind of just introduced theidea it was groundbreaking and
historical just because ithadn't happened since 1966, but
it was a big, freaking deal.
I mean, it's almost 60 years,yeah, since the last hearing.
Yeah, yeah, that's incredible.
Travis (07:25):
So in that hearing, lawmakers were shown
declassified images and footagesof UFOs, including a video of a
UFO observed by a Navy fighterpilot in 2021.
This is again the 2022 hearings.
Yeah, a spherical object thatquickly passes by the cockpit of
the aircraft.
Another video capturedtriangular objects, speculated
to be drones, floating off thecoast, as seen through night
vision goggles.
So I mean, this is all prettyinteresting stuff they have
(07:48):
actually had collisions in SouthAmerica?
Josh (07:50):
We haven't.
I mean, we may have hadcollisions, I don't know.
But these guys are talkingabout near misses.
But there have been collisionsin the world and that's scary.
You know, it's a safety issueand that's what a lot of these
pilots are coming forward about.
You know, they're like this isscary, there's not supposed to
be something there and there is,and they're getting close to us
and we can't do anything aboutit.
(08:11):
So I think that's why theybrought up the near misses is
like this is important, like ifthere's near misses, there's
going to be a hit at some point.
Yeah, but you were saying therehave been hits.
There have been hits, but notin the US that we know of, but
around the rest of the worldFatal.
I can't disclose thatinformation.
Oh boy.
Travis (08:28):
No, I don't know, you'll release it in a skiff.
Josh (08:30):
Yeah.
Travis (08:31):
Another interesting thing is that this hearing in
2022 versus the one in 2023 wasonly 90 minutes, less than 90
minutes long the public portionof it, and what we saw was like
almost two and a half hours.
Yeah, from start to end.
Josh (08:45):
It was riveting, at least for me.
Was it for you?
Travis (08:54):
It was interesting.
There are parts of it that Ifeel like I could identify which
reps really were taking itseriously and which ones were
just there to be folksy and tryto be charming.
So I felt like some of themwere taking it very seriously
and some were just there tograndstand a little bit.
Josh (09:05):
Yeah.
Travis (09:06):
To me they were very easily identified.
Josh (09:09):
And I think possibly they didn't know what they were
getting into.
Travis (09:12):
This is all.
This is not like an assignment.
This is something that wasvolunteer.
I felt like the people thatwanted to be there liked the
idea of being involved insomething clandestine or
secretive, and that's why theygot into government was to find
out these juicy secrets and anyresearch that was done by their
aides, cause I'm sure that thesepeople didn't do any of their
(09:32):
own research.
They have aides.
Yeah, one of the reps that hadcalled this committee or was
interested in it at the endthanked his researchers which
was kind of nice.
Josh (09:42):
I didn't really get that.
That was cool, was that Garcia?
Travis (09:50):
bullshit.
Josh (09:51):
Uh, tim burchett okay, like you said, it was short, but
they did have a classifiedsession afterwards.
We have no idea how long thatgoes.
Travis (09:59):
I'm sure there was one after 2023.
There was a lot of talk abouthaving meeting outside of the
formality of this public hearing.
Right, and did you notice whowas in the audience?
Who's in the auditorium?
How could could I not?
Yeah, george Knapp, I think hewas called out.
And Jeremy Korbel?
Yeah, oh yeah, I could identifyhim just from the back of his
(10:20):
head.
Josh (10:21):
He was the only one not wearing a suit, yeah, which on
Instagram, a lot of people weregiving him flack for Like.
Do you have no respect for theprocess?
I don't know.
Travis (10:29):
Stupid.
The watch he was wearing wasprobably worth more than two of
their suits combined.
Yeah, he wore enough.
Yeah, it's fine.
Like you can show up.
That's a public hearing.
Yeah, I'm okay with it.
A tie is, I think, a false ideaof what formality should look
like.
Like a tie is a very Westernculture, affectation you'd wear
with your clothes.
Like it does not designate howserious you're taking it.
(10:54):
It's just a standard that isthat we've set up in the Western
world.
To you know, designateformality.
But if you look anywhere else,nobody else wears a tie, Not
like this.
Josh (11:00):
Okay, so the 2023 house oversight and accountability
subcommittee hearing.
Here we go.
So there's differentsubcommittees.
The first one was that longhouse intelligence
counterterrorism law.
This one is the house oversightand accountability subcommittee
hearings.
Travis (11:15):
So what they're looking at here is like funding and the
allocation of funds.
That's like what falls underoversight or things that are
maybe not looked at too deeply.
Right, this is.
This was part of a biggerhearing, not just about UAPs.
Josh (11:28):
It was about.
What are our steps?
What are we going to do?
Like the first one, we know theproblem.
Now, what do we need to putinto place, what do we need to
stop or what do we need to lookinto to make things better?
So July 26, 2023, the US HouseCommittee on Oversight and
Accountability held asignificant hearing titled
Unidentified Anomalous PhenomenaImplications on National
(11:52):
Security, Public Safety andgovernment transparency.
And they really nailed home thetransparency thing.
So this session aimed toexplore the potential threats
posed by the unidentified aerialphenomena, or UAPs, and
assesses the government'stransparency regarding these
incidences.
So do you want to talk aboutthe witnesses that came forward?
Travis (12:10):
Yeah, I've got a couple things.
You have them ranked.
Josh (12:14):
You have your own personal rank of who you like best.
Travis (12:18):
I did.
I ranked them, but you likethem all.
I felt like these witnesstestimonies were the most
compelling part of thesehearings.
Like I said earlier, I feltlike some reps did not do enough
of checking of boxes and itlooked like a lot of them just
showed up and barely read theirstatements or their questions
and you could tell by the waythey were asking the questions.
(12:40):
Like one rep was like gettingto a point and then he stops and
then just says occam's razorand then continues on without
explaining what he was trying toget at.
He just said occam's razor aslike uh, I'm not going to
explain to you what I think itis.
Maybe I don't understand whatit is.
My aides wrote it down.
You know aides, they're alwaysjust adding in their own voice.
Josh (13:01):
Yeah, I remember you telling me about that.
I didn't remember that moment,but from how you explained it it
sounded as though he said itkind of like a transition, but
it just didn't make any sense.
Travis (13:09):
I think he wanted to go somewhere with it, but then he
didn't understand.
And that's the point I wastrying to make is, I don't think
he read through his ownpersonal dossier that was given
to him by his aides.
I think that he had opened itup right before walking in, read
through parts of it, tried tounderstand it as best he could
and then, without reading it, hehad just mentioned a couple of
things that he remembered.
(13:30):
When he realized that he'd madea mistake, he just tried to
move on.
Yeah, so that's, that'sfrustrating.
So I think the weakest point ofthis was some of the
questioning.
But there were some realstandouts, I feel like, in this,
but let's, let's just talkabout the three witnesses.
So yeah, grush, fravor andGraves saying it is that one
name.
Grush, fravor and Graves, andsaying it in that sequence it
(13:50):
sounds like the farm villainsfrom the Fantastic Mr Fox to me,
but, like I said, they were themost compelling piece of
evidence.
Usually I'm of the thinkingthat eyewitness accounts are.
We talked about memory a lot onthe show.
They are subject to memory.
But Fravor, the commander thatwas cited as witnessing the Tic
(14:12):
Tac event what I really likedwas that he had said towards his
closing arguments witnessesneed to stop treating these as
like a big fish story.
And we talked about this withlike the game of telephone, how
a story gets bigger and biggerthe more you tell it.
And he said write yourinformation down and stick to
that information that you have.
Don't try to make it biggerthan it is.
(14:33):
Yeah, and I found thatabsolutely in line with how I
feel about eyewitness testimony.
Josh (14:37):
I thought of you when he was talking about that Aw.
Travis (14:40):
Yeah, that was Commander David Fravor.
As far as rankings go, he's mynumber two.
Josh (14:44):
He's a retired Navy commander and former commanding
officer of the Black AcesSquadron.
Yeah, he's renowned for his2004 encounter with the UAP,
often referred to as the Tic Tacincident.
We did an episode about UAPencounters that have actual
footage from the government.
Travis (15:00):
And he said something about the propulsion system that
we see here, right, like we usecombustible engines, things
that burn through fuel, andthat's what propels them forward
, and also that most ways wenavigate through the air
requires us to have wings right.
So what is that Bernoulli'sprinciple that the air flies
over and then off, gives lift,these things that he identified
as giant Tic Tacs?
(15:21):
And that was another funnything is that some of the reps
and again this is a fault of ourrepresentatives they kept
calling it Tic Tacs and theykept saying Tic Tac.
And then Burchette said I saidTic Tac, I don't mean the
communist Chinese app, and I waslike that's, oh yeah, shut up,
like, like, shut up, that's.
That's you aligning yourselfpolitically with what's going on
(15:43):
.
Josh (15:43):
And then he made a joke about his daughter calling him a
boomer.
And then he said happyanniversary to his wife.
Travis (15:49):
Yeah, it was just like what the hell is going on Like.
What are you why?
Yeah, it was just like what thehell is going on Like.
What are you doing?
Josh (15:54):
Yeah, no one is here for this right now.
Travis (15:55):
We're here to get some serious information.
Josh (15:58):
Yeah, some of these people have been working for decades
to get this to happen.
Travis (16:01):
He kept saying gold, darn it.
It was political grandstanding,so I found that pretty
frustrating.
Anyway, what Fravor had saidthat I think was pretty cool is
that these UAPs that he hadspotted and had nicknamed Tic
Tacs- yeah.
He's like basically, think of agiant propane cylinder flying
through the air.
That's what it looks like, andthat was again in reference to
(16:22):
one of the reps calling it TicTac.
Again, he's like nope, think ofit as like a giant propane
cylinder, like a Tic Tac.
Josh (16:28):
With no propulsion.
Travis (16:29):
That they could identify .
Yep, there was something that'smoving it forward.
We just don't understand whatit is.
Josh (16:34):
Right Magnets.
It very well could be magnetsthere is when they go and test
the areas after a UAP sighting,there is a lot of
electromagnetic interferencehappening.
Travis (16:45):
I believe it.
Earth has a very strongelectromagnetic field, so maybe
they've harnessed the power ofmagnets.
Yeah, just the third greatestpower on Earth After air.
Josh (16:55):
So maybe they've harnessed the power of magnets.
Yeah, just the third greatestpower on.
Travis (16:56):
Earth After Aaron Walsh.
Oh no, you're listing theCaptain Planet, earth's
Mightiest Heroes.
Josh (17:05):
Yeah, so that was Commander David Fravor.
We also have David Grush, oneof my favorite.
He was a former intelligenceofficer with 14 years experience
in the US Air Force.
Travis (17:17):
He was the whistleblower that brought these hearings to
this proceeding.
He was.
The reason why they'rediscussing this is because it
was his efforts.
Josh (17:27):
When I think of a whistleblower, I think of
someone that found out someinformation like this isn't
right, and then they go andwhistle about it.
They tell everyone this is notwhat he did.
He filed paperwork to legallywhistleblow, saying that this is
an emergency.
Travis (17:43):
Yep.
He whistleblew within theparameters of the US military
right, Like he tried to doeverything above board.
Josh (17:50):
And he is still and it's crazy and he still has his
clearance, which is why he's sospecific with his words and what
he can and cannot say, becausethere's a lot of people trying
to get his clearance taken awayso that he can no longer testify
.
Travis (18:02):
He's a former intelligence officer.
Josh (18:04):
Yeah, so he's a former intelligence officer with 14
years of experience, no longeran intelligence officer.
No, but he still has hisclearance, same as Elizondo,
which is bonkers.
I don't understand how thatworks.
14 years of experience in theUS Air Force and National
Geospatial Intelligence Agency.
Grush served as arepresentative on two Pentagon
task force investigating UAPs.
(18:25):
My favorite thing about him isthat he was given max clearance,
the highest clearance you can,and he went and interviewed 40
something people to find outeverything that they know, this
release on his News Nationinterview that he'd been talking
about all throughout.
Travis (18:40):
Yes, so he told AOC, who I felt like she had her facts
in line.
She's like, okay, you'retelling me all of this stuff,
where can I find this stuff, thestuff that you've researched?
Is this accessible?
Is this something that we canfind Like very pointed question
which I really appreciate and hesaid now I can share with you
outside of the meeting, in aless formal setting.
(19:02):
I'm not in this public hearing.
Also, I did a News Nationinterview and that's where you
can find some of the information.
Josh (19:08):
Yeah, so he knows almost everything.
But there was some people insome places he tried to go and
get interviews.
It just didn't happen.
He got stonewalled in certainsituations, as well as some of
these Congress people trying togo and get information.
And some of these Congresspeople were trying to get secret
skiffs done with Grush, andthey were denied.
(19:28):
They're like no, you can't, wedon't want you to find out what
he knows.
So I really like him.
He just seems like a realstandup guy, really intelligent.
He has all this knowledge.
It seems, though, he'ssystematically trying to release
as much as he can without goingto prison.
Travis (19:45):
Yeah, he was my least favorite of the three.
Not saying that that's bad, butthere's got to be a bottom.
He was my three.
My number one was Ryan Grave.
Josh (19:52):
Oh.
Travis (19:53):
He was the younger member of this panel.
I just liked how he was comingat this in a very like an
endearing manner.
When he was going through hisstatement, he was reading from
something that he'd written, andI just found that charming.
Josh (20:08):
And he's there representing a lot of people,
like in the private sector aswell as in the military.
Travis (20:20):
He was a big advocate for having a more formal process
for reporting this.
So I don't know if it was Grushor Graves that said later in
the hearing that it was afeeling they had Nothing that
was bad, because there's no wayto really validate this feeling,
but they feel like only 5% ofUAP sightings get reported.
So that means 95% of thesightings that are out there are
not reported and that's becauseof either intimidation or
(20:41):
stigma, and they're trying tode-stigmatize seeing something
that you might think is weird.
Yeah, they want people to feelmore comfortable reporting this,
and that's another thing that Iappreciate about these three.
Josh (20:53):
Yeah, people are withholding information because
they don't want to be labeledcrazy because of the stigma and
they don't want to lose theirjob or their career or their
rank that they've been workingfor their entire lives.
Their lives could be destroyedby saying a sentence Right,
which is insane and it's not abad sentence yeah, sentence,
which is insane and it's not abad sentence.
So, ryan Graves he's a formerUS Navy pilot and he's also the
(21:14):
executive director of Americansfor Safe Aerospace.
He's been really vocal aboutthe UAP sightings and advocate
for improving the reportingmechanisms for the pilots,
because there's nothing in place.
Like these guys, they seesomething.
If they report it, it's totheir direct superior or their
bosses if it's commercialflights, and nothing happens
about it, or they are deemedcrazy and they lose their job.
(21:37):
So he's a baller for sure, andhe's kind of like the little man
standing up and making a bigchange.
Travis (21:42):
But he's coming at it from a practical point of view,
which is what I reallyappreciate, that appeal to like
my sensibilities which is what Ireally appreciated.
Josh (21:51):
That appealed to my sensibilities.
His testimony mainly justhighlighted the frequency of UAP
encounters during trainingmissions off the US East Coast
and, just like I said, he'semphasizing the formal reporting
system for safety risks.
I mean, he's not out theretrying to find aliens.
The most important part to himisn't the technology, it's we
know, it's there.
Travis (22:09):
It's happening and also just being like safe.
He wants his pilots to be ableto fly in a safe environment,
and so a way to do that isdocument any sort of anomalous
behavior that you might see asyou're out flying.
You know whether that's wind,or you know inclement weather or
birds, you know whatever,whatever may be the case,
(22:29):
buildings, that kind of thing.
He's approaching this from apractical standpoint.
Josh (22:32):
It's very logical that if there's something there,
everyone should know about it.
Travis (22:36):
Yep, or if that is going to be something that you're
going to encounter, we shouldhave a system in place for
reporting it and documentingwhere it was seen and the nature
of that sighting.
Josh (22:46):
Yeah, him showing up and him saying that he has like 30
people behind him, that he'srepresenting, that all have
their stories and theirincidences and, like you said,
he was endearing.
But because of how endearing hewas, it also made me kind of
proud for him.
It was just like, yeah, get it,man, like you're doing it.
Yep, and he was.
I mean it's very impressivewhat he's done.
(23:07):
Fravor, I've seen him indocumentaries.
Right, this was by far the bestanything I've seen from him.
He just really talked about theTic Tac incident and what that
meant.
He went through the whole thing.
Travis (23:20):
At one point he was asked about the Phoenix Lights
by another one of the reps thathad nothing to do with this and
he's like why I'm in Arizona?
So what do you know about thePhoenix Lights?
And he's like nothing.
Man, like I know as much as youdo what's out in the public
discourse.
Yeah, like you tell me, likewhat do you know about the
Phoenix sites?
You're a rep for Arizona, whatdo you know about it?
And that wasn't under Fravor'spurview and that's not why he
(23:42):
was there.
He wasn't there to report onthe.
Phoenix sites.
Part of this that was sodisappointing to me was some of
the representatives askingquestions that don't make any
sense and they're just like well, I know something about this,
I'm going to ask that questionInstead of doing the little bit
of homework that was required ofthem.
With the people that were therein front of them, they were
just like well, I know aboutPhoenix Lights and Kurt Russell
(24:02):
was involved right, that'spretty cool.
What do you know about that?
And he's just like I liked howthey were respectful but
dismissive, and they were justlike.
That was not why I'm here.
Let's move on.
Let's talk about the thing thatI'm here to talk about.
Josh (24:15):
Yeah, I find it interesting.
So Ryan Graves, he was reallyfocused on safety.
Yep Right Commander DavidFravor was really focused on
technology and science.
Travis (24:28):
Like that and science and science.
Yeah, that's a thing that Ithought was really cool.
Josh (24:32):
Yeah, he was like this is far beyond anything that we have
.
We're getting a little bitcloser but we're not anywhere
near it.
But this TikTok video that hewas a part of that was in 2004.
We didn't even have iPhonesthen, yeah.
So he's been on this bigcrusade letting people know that
this happened.
This is real.
This technology couldpotentially be a national
(24:54):
security threat If one of ourenemies or another country gets
this stuff.
If they can just show up anddip out instantly and we can't
do anything about it.
That's scary.
So if this technology exists,we need to know and understand
it.
So that was kind of cool.
I really liked when he wasexplaining the whole day
basically what happened.
Someone asked well, what didyour commanding officer say?
(25:15):
And he's like I was thecommanding officer.
He's like there's nothing Icould say yeah, I didn't know
what was going on.
I love that.
So he was the big cheese inthat situation.
And now he's showing up sayinglike, yeah, this is all real,
yeah.
And now he's showing up sayinglike, yeah, this is all real,
yeah.
And then David Grush hetestified about the multi-decade
UAP crash retrieval andreversal engineering program
(25:37):
that he was informed of duringhis duties.
So he claimed that the USgovernment has been aware of
non-human activity since the1930s and alleged the recovery
of a non-human biologics fromcrash sites.
So this guy knows all the info.
He can't talk about much, whichwas very underwhelming, but he
was able to say enough that wasvery intriguing.
But from his research and hisknowledge, there is non-biologic
(26:02):
retrieval programs with thePentagon and he also mentioned
that there is a disinformationprogram that exists.
He was focusing on thewhistleblowers.
He's standing up for those guysand he's doing what a lot of
people can't, and he's doing itthe correct way, because he
mentioned multiple times that hewas not treated well.
(26:22):
He used the word corporateterrorism, where they would
threaten him with removing hisrank or his clearance, and he
said that would happen on theprofessional level, but he also
was threatened on his personallevel.
Travis (26:36):
Corporate terrorism was a term that he gave it.
That's not necessarily what hewas experiencing.
That's just how he defined itright.
Corporate terrorism could meana number of different things,
but that's just how he felt hewas being treated.
Josh (26:48):
Yeah, he was basically being powered into and
strong-armed.
Travis (26:52):
Through a lot of different means, like
gaslighting is one of them.
You know where they tell youwhat you saw is wrong or it's
not true, or whatever.
You know a lot ofwhistleblowers, not just here
but across the spectrum ofblowing whistles.
They all experience that.
Josh (27:07):
Yeah.
Travis (27:08):
Whether it's, you know, misogyny in the workplace.
Even in cases of rape ormolestation, those are thrown
around.
Like you didn't experience whatyou think you experienced,
You're wrong.
Josh (27:20):
Yeah.
Travis (27:21):
So it's usually the oppressor or the person
perpetrating these crimes ortrying to hide it that uses the
gaslighting.
Josh (27:29):
Yeah, and it sounded, though, because they asked him
some follow-up questions aboutsome of the things that happened
, and he said that he wasn'table to talk about it because
they have an ongoing caseagainst the people that have
done that and he doesn't want togive them any kind of
ammunition Right.
And they also followed up withhave you known anyone that has
been hurt or?
And they even eventually askedanyone been murdered?
(27:49):
And he known anyone that hasbeen hurt or, and they even
eventually asked anyone beenmurdered and he said I, I can't
I can't, I can't talk about that, yeah and that could mean a
number of different things.
Travis (27:56):
That could mean that he knows and can't talk about it,
or it's something outside of hisrealm of knowledge, like he's
not gonna make a blanketstatement, say like yeah, people
were murdered or no, peopleweren't murdered I mean
naturally.
Josh (28:07):
I want to just assume whenever he says I can't talk
about it, it means the answer isyes, like in anything, like are
there aliens?
It's like I can't talk aboutthat.
Travis (28:16):
It's like he means yes, Are they human that you saw or
no?
And they're like I can't saythat.
I will say they were non-human.
Well, why are you sayingnon-human instead of
extraterrestrial?
Josh (28:36):
It's like, because that's the information that I have and
that's as much as I can sayabout it.
Yeah, some of the key takeawaysfrom this, I think government
transparency.
I mean they mentioned multipletimes the witnesses as well as
the committee.
Yeah, no one has trust in thegovernment right now, for good
reason.
But hearing the underscoredbipartisan concerns about the
lack of transparency from themilitary and the intelligence
agencies regarding UAPs, thelawmakers expressed frustration
over the overclassification andthe withholding of information
(28:58):
from Congress and public.
There was also a takeaway ofnational security implications.
So the witnesses and lawmakersdiscussed the potential national
security risks posed by theUAPs, especially given their
proximity to the militaryinstallations and critical
infrastructure.
Like we've seen the jellyfishone that's just cruising through
(29:18):
a black site.
Yeah, and then recently there'sbeen a lot of hive-like
behavior of UAPs around militarystuff and all through history
they're very interested inmilitary bases or nuclear sites,
which is spooky.
Yeah, there needs to be a needfor a comprehensive
understanding of these phenomenawas emphasized to ensure
(29:39):
airspace safety.
And then there's a huge callfor further investigation.
The testimonies highlighted thenecessity for continued
investigation into UAPs andadvocating for the establishment
of a formal reporting mechanismand a greater government
transparency to address publicconcerns and potential threats.
So two thumbs up.
It was good.
Yeah, it was good.
It was nice to get thisinformation and it's through the
(30:01):
right channels and it is onpublic record, like that is
really important.
And it is nice about thebipartisanship.
This isn't about all thesethings that everyone disagrees
about.
This is about humanity safety.
Travis (30:15):
What it should definitely be about.
Yeah, but again, we saw withthese hearings and it was from
the people that were saying thatit should be bipartisan that I
felt were the most partisan, andyou can tell.
Josh (30:26):
You definitely could tell they were thrown in little jabs
here and there about things thathad nothing to do with the
hearing.
Yeah.
So the congressional hearing onUAPs is a huge shift in the
government's approach to thistopic.
I recently saw an article thatthere was some lights, some
weird funky lights, happening inOregon and four different
(30:48):
pilots reported them and theyeven call.
There's a audio clip from airtraffic control and he's saying
just avoid the UFO and justmaintain your own thing.
So obviously the stigma isgoing away because it's becoming
a little more prominent.
These pilots were not afraid ofreporting something weird and
suspicious and odd and it's just.
(31:08):
It's exciting that it's working.
I mean, I think that gets usone step closer to the big goal
of the big goal.
Travis (31:17):
I kind of know where you're going with this, but good
, I didn't even know where I wasgoing.
Josh (31:20):
Oh, okay, I'm glad you interrupted me, cause I had
nothing to say after that.
Travis (31:24):
Well, what do you think the big goal is here?
What is the point of thesehearings?
Do you?
What do you think?
Josh (31:29):
I think the point is to have an understanding of what's
going on and to have thepentagon held accountable for
hiding things, and I think theydo need to declassify things.
They mentioned that a couple oftimes is like there needs to be
term limits on some of theseimages where it no longer poses
a threat, and they're sayingmaybe 15 years.
(31:50):
Does that sound good?
Yeah, there should be.
They should release images, butno one's in charge of the
Pentagon.
That's the thing.
And that actually gets into thethird one.
Oh, secretary of defense, thethird hearing I watched a little
bit of it is so good.
Yeah, a lot of therepresentatives are not joking
anymore, they're just pissed,and I think what happened is all
(32:12):
these people went into theseskiffs, learned a lot more
information that we're notsupposed to know, and they are
livid.
They now have new documentationand new witnesses coming
forward with a lot moreinformation and they are not
having it and they are out forblood.
And it is a whole differentenergy in the room.
Okay, so it is a wholedifferent energy in the room.
Okay, so it is very exciting butI think that's the big goal is
(32:34):
to hold the Pentagon accountable, because they're doing whatever
they want and it doesn't matter, and no one can tell them not
to, basically, and they'rewithholding things from the
public, they're withholdingthings from the Congress, and we
all want answers, yeah, and soI think that's the big thing we
want the answers, I want answers, I do too, and it seems as
(32:55):
though, by how they're acting,that they have them.
Travis (32:58):
Who?
The government, because thegovernment the military.
Okay, well, yeah, yep, that'sthe problem, damn.
Josh (33:03):
That concludes this one.
I'm excited.
Basically, we're going to do apart two with this.
Travis (33:08):
Not covering 2022, right , Because fuck you 2022.
That whole year was garbage.
Josh (33:13):
Yeah, there was a couple of years that were garbage there
, but 2022, we were like abusevictims getting out of an
abusive relationship, trying toget out of an abusive
relationship, and we were tryingto reintegrate into society.
Travis (33:26):
We're grabbing our shoes and coat, trying to run out the
door, and then they're like ohguess what into society.
We're grabbing our shoes andcoat, trying to run out the door
, and then they're like oh guesswhat Aliens exist and we're
like the fuck, I don't, yeah,why?
Josh (33:34):
now, because they made us become all alcoholics.
And then they're like, oh yeah,and aliens exist.
Yeah, that's the big plan.
Get us drunk Worked, yeah.
So I'm curious on what other?
This is a big hearing.
We weren't able to cover everysingle topic, but yeah, if you
guys want to message us, letyour friends know about us so
that they can learn, yep.
(33:54):
If they don't want to hear youtalk about it, yeah.
Or if you're a broken record.
Yeah, this is a niche podcast, Iunderstand that, but you know
it's also kind of fun if you'reinterested in like dipping your
toe into the otherworldly yeah,and if you're a fan, if you want
a soft way to introduce peopleinto this category, I would
imagine this podcast is a littlesofter than most.
Travis (34:16):
Yes, a hundred percent.
It's designed that way it isyeah, tell your friends.
Josh (34:21):
And next episode we're going to be talking about 2024,
hearing the one that happenedwith the immaculate consolation
oh boy, yeah.
And then, like I said, ourresearcher, jordan, my wife, has
made it, so I cannot researchanything about that, but she
said it is batshit and she getsexcited in front of me about it
and I can't do anything about itand I am mad.
(34:42):
She's disabled your Google.
Yeah, well, I have to honor ourvows.
Okay, that was in our vows.
Travis (34:49):
I can't research aliens without.
Without her express consent.
Josh (34:52):
Yeah, well, cool Well, thank you for listening, guys
this is a ride.
Travis (34:57):
Yeah, this has been fun.
Do we do any special thanks atthe end of this?
Anybody, we need to acknowledgeyour wife, maybe For doing most
of the heavy lifting.
Yeah, being our a researcher,my wife did the research.
Josh (35:12):
Our theme song yes, so our wife I mean my wife, she's not
our wife, our wife, my wife,jordan, is phenomenal.
She is a producer of podcastsand she helped with giving us a
leg up giving us a leg up,guiding us through this leg up,
guiding us through this wholeprocess, and we wouldn't be half
(35:33):
of what we are without her inthis adventure of ours with this
podcast, correct.
So thank you, jordan, foreverything you do and thank you
listeners for listening.
Yeah, thank you.
Travis (35:45):
All right, okay, bye, okay, bye.
aliens yes but maybe no.
Welcome to the show.
Aliens, yes, but maybe no withjosh and travis.
I'm travis and I'm josh.
(00:26):
This is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title.
So welcome back, josh.
Thank you, I mean, I'll welcomemyself into your lovely home
are you trying to get me towelcome you?
Josh (00:38):
yes, I didn't welcome you.
I was welcome to my home, leanon that pretty hard.
Travis (00:41):
Thank you for following the cues.
Yeah, it's been two weeks sinceour last record.
We had to take two weeks offbecause the last one was so
heated.
Yeah, it's been a while.
Josh (00:51):
Yeah, it has, and we talked about the hollow moon.
Travis (00:53):
Yes, we did.
Josh (00:54):
You were the sweetest I've ever seen you.
Travis (00:57):
Thank you for saying that, but I would disagree.
That was probably the mostheated I've been on this podcast
to date.
I still feel worked up, stillfeel pretty triggered about it.
Josh (01:07):
I forgot about it completely.
Travis (01:08):
Very cool, as you want to do, classic Josh.
Yep Easy going Easy cheesylemon squeezy.
Josh (01:15):
So the hollow moon, we talked about that.
We both agreed that it ishollow, it is a spaceship, All
right, all right.
Travis (01:22):
You're ramping me up, man Sweating.
We did not agree.
I think we had very dichotomoustakes on that.
Josh (01:31):
That's true.
At the end of it, though, wedid a test, yeah.
Travis (01:35):
As we do.
One thing I do remember we'removing on past Halloween, right,
right, okay.
Josh (01:40):
At the end of each episode we do a baseline quiz for our
next episode, just because wedon't really know what we're
going to talk about.
Travis (01:46):
Yeah, that's kind of what keeps the show exciting for
us.
Yes, is not knowing what we'regoing to be covering on the next
episode until we get the quiz.
Yes, by our anonymousresearcher whose name rhymes
with Borden Gordon Torden, maybeFjorden, yep, our researcher.
Fjorden, yep, our researcher.
Fjorden From Norway, yep Fromthe North.
Josh (02:05):
Yep, there's actually a race of Nordic aliens, just so
you know.
Travis (02:09):
Okay, are you introducing a new theme?
Josh (02:11):
No, no, I'm just saying our researcher might actually be
an alien, okay.
Travis (02:15):
Well, she's doing a very good job, she is.
Josh (02:18):
Yeah, so this last baseline quiz, it was about the
congressional hearings that'sbeen going on since 2022.
Travis (02:28):
There was one question that made you laugh.
Yeah, I thought it was so funny.
And turns out, the funny answerwas the right one.
Josh (02:34):
Yeah, the immaculate conception.
Travis (02:36):
That's what I thought the joke was was that it was so
close to immaculate conception.
Josh (02:41):
Yes, what's it actually called?
I forget.
Travis (02:44):
Constellation.
That's what it was ImmaculateConstellation.
Josh (02:47):
Yeah, oh boy, I've been really interested in that and
our researcher has forbade mefrom learning anything about it
because we are going to end updoing an episode on it by itself
because it's such a big thing.
Okay, that was part of thebaseline quiz for this episode.
It's a document that thegovernment said did not exist,
(03:08):
and then documents came out andit does exist.
So they caught the Pentagonlying about something really big
.
We are not going to be talkingabout the congressional hearing
that the ImmaculateConstellation was in.
Travis (03:20):
What else aren't we going to be talking about today?
Let's just start listing thosethings.
Josh (03:23):
Yeah, the rash on my back that I've been showing many
people.
Travis (03:29):
That was uncalled for, Josh.
No, we're not going to talkabout it.
I just did a spit take.
Josh (03:35):
Yeah, we're not going to talk about it, so now, my coffee
is off limits.
Travis (03:38):
Do you want to see it?
Josh (03:39):
No, so what we're going to talk about is mainly the 2023
congressional hearing.
Travis (03:46):
Okay, so you had said there was one in 2022.
Josh (03:48):
There was one, okay, and that one was historic.
Travis (03:52):
Same players in that one or different, different.
Okay.
Josh (03:56):
So the 2022 House Intelligence, counterterrorism,
counterintelligence andCounterproliferation
Subcommittee hearing it's amouthful that happened on May
17th 2022.
And it was the first publichearing on UFOs since 1966.
And that hearing, I believe,was to end Project Blue Book,
(04:17):
which was the project and theorganization that was
researching since Roswell.
Basically, okay, right, right.
The primary focus for thishearing was to address concerns
about uaps as a potential threatto national security.
So it's kind of just like okay,we're here, these things are
happening, basically to startthe ball rolling, to get the
(04:39):
ball started to roll the ballwell, and it's like like just
fixated on one word yes, justget it out.
Balls.
Good, but yeah, they're justtrying to get the ball rolling
and it worked because we endedup having another hearing and
then another.
Travis (04:56):
More information coming for future podcasts.
We'll probably talk about themost recent one once we've had
time to, and the 2024 one.
Josh (05:04):
We're going to do it.
Travis (05:04):
the next episode, oh damn Spoiler for the quiz.
There is no quiz.
Oh no, I mean, yay, it's goodfor me, you get to finally leave
this podcast on a high note.
Yeah, so let's back up beforewe get into this.
Let's talk about some of thebig players that are in the 2022
hearings.
Josh (05:21):
It was the Undersecretary of Defense for Intelligence and
Security, Ronald S Moultrie, andthe Pentagon's top intelligence
official and Deputy Director ofNaval Intelligence, Scott Bray.
Travis (05:33):
Those were the witnesses called to testify in the 2022
hearings.
Josh (05:37):
Right and the key takeaways included a significant
increase in the reported UAPsightings, growing to
approximately 400 from theprevious year.
The Pentagon's commitment toinvestigating the the reported
UAP sightings growing toapproximately 400 from the
previous year.
The Pentagon's commitment toinvestigating the origins of
UAPs there's no evidence tosuggest extraterrestrial origin.
At least 11 near misses betweenUAPs and US aircrafts had
(05:58):
happened.
The need for a standardizedprocess for civilian reporting
of UAP sightings.
And the hearing was alsofollowed by a closed classified
session, which I would love tohave been a part of.
Travis (06:10):
So reading from this Wikipedia page, from this
hearing, it said that Scott Brayhad stated that the number of
frequent and continuing reportedsightings had grown to about
400 since last year's mandatedreport, which we just talked
about.
He also cast out the notionthat the UFOs had
extraterrestrial origins,testifying that no organic,
inorganic material orunexplainable wreckage indicated
.
So so that is in pretty starkcontrast with what the 2023
(06:35):
hearings brought us.
Right, yeah, big, because MrGrush had said that they did
find non-human life forms withinthese downed craft.
Right, yeah, he used the wordbiologics.
He said biologics because healso went and asked point blank
why he's saying it's notextraterrestrial but non-human,
(06:56):
and he's like, well, becausethat's what we know.
We don't know them to beextraterrestrial, we just know
them to be non-human.
Right, but he did say biologicsquite a bit.
Josh (07:05):
Yeah, he was, as he should , be very careful with his words
.
So that's kind of what thisfirst subcommittee hearing was
about.
It kind of just introduced theidea it was groundbreaking and
historical just because ithadn't happened since 1966, but
it was a big, freaking deal.
I mean, it's almost 60 years,yeah, since the last hearing.
Yeah, yeah, that's incredible.
Travis (07:25):
So in that hearing, lawmakers were shown
declassified images and footagesof UFOs, including a video of a
UFO observed by a Navy fighterpilot in 2021.
This is again the 2022 hearings.
Yeah, a spherical object thatquickly passes by the cockpit of
the aircraft.
Another video capturedtriangular objects, speculated
to be drones, floating off thecoast, as seen through night
vision goggles.
So I mean, this is all prettyinteresting stuff they have
(07:48):
actually had collisions in SouthAmerica?
Josh (07:50):
We haven't.
I mean, we may have hadcollisions, I don't know.
But these guys are talkingabout near misses.
But there have been collisionsin the world and that's scary.
You know, it's a safety issueand that's what a lot of these
pilots are coming forward about.
You know, they're like this isscary, there's not supposed to
be something there and there is,and they're getting close to us
and we can't do anything aboutit.
(08:11):
So I think that's why theybrought up the near misses is
like this is important, like ifthere's near misses, there's
going to be a hit at some point.
Yeah, but you were saying therehave been hits.
There have been hits, but notin the US that we know of, but
around the rest of the worldFatal.
I can't disclose thatinformation.
Oh boy.
Travis (08:28):
No, I don't know, you'll release it in a skiff.
Josh (08:30):
Yeah.
Travis (08:31):
Another interesting thing is that this hearing in
2022 versus the one in 2023 wasonly 90 minutes, less than 90
minutes long the public portionof it, and what we saw was like
almost two and a half hours.
Yeah, from start to end.
Josh (08:45):
It was riveting, at least for me.
Was it for you?
Travis (08:54):
It was interesting.
There are parts of it that Ifeel like I could identify which
reps really were taking itseriously and which ones were
just there to be folksy and tryto be charming.
So I felt like some of themwere taking it very seriously
and some were just there tograndstand a little bit.
Josh (09:05):
Yeah.
Travis (09:06):
To me they were very easily identified.
Josh (09:09):
And I think possibly they didn't know what they were
getting into.
Travis (09:12):
This is all.
This is not like an assignment.
This is something that wasvolunteer.
I felt like the people thatwanted to be there liked the
idea of being involved insomething clandestine or
secretive, and that's why theygot into government was to find
out these juicy secrets and anyresearch that was done by their
aides, cause I'm sure that thesepeople didn't do any of their
(09:32):
own research.
They have aides.
Yeah, one of the reps that hadcalled this committee or was
interested in it at the endthanked his researchers which
was kind of nice.
Josh (09:42):
I didn't really get that.
That was cool, was that Garcia?
Travis (09:50):
bullshit.
Josh (09:51):
Uh, tim burchett okay, like you said, it was short, but
they did have a classifiedsession afterwards.
We have no idea how long thatgoes.
Travis (09:59):
I'm sure there was one after 2023.
There was a lot of talk abouthaving meeting outside of the
formality of this public hearing.
Right, and did you notice whowas in the audience?
Who's in the auditorium?
How could could I not?
Yeah, george Knapp, I think hewas called out.
And Jeremy Korbel?
Yeah, oh yeah, I could identifyhim just from the back of his
(10:20):
head.
Josh (10:21):
He was the only one not wearing a suit, yeah, which on
Instagram, a lot of people weregiving him flack for Like.
Do you have no respect for theprocess?
I don't know.
Travis (10:29):
Stupid.
The watch he was wearing wasprobably worth more than two of
their suits combined.
Yeah, he wore enough.
Yeah, it's fine.
Like you can show up.
That's a public hearing.
Yeah, I'm okay with it.
A tie is, I think, a false ideaof what formality should look
like.
Like a tie is a very Westernculture, affectation you'd wear
with your clothes.
Like it does not designate howserious you're taking it.
(10:54):
It's just a standard that isthat we've set up in the Western
world.
To you know, designateformality.
But if you look anywhere else,nobody else wears a tie, Not
like this.
Josh (11:00):
Okay, so the 2023 house oversight and accountability
subcommittee hearing.
Here we go.
So there's differentsubcommittees.
The first one was that longhouse intelligence
counterterrorism law.
This one is the house oversightand accountability subcommittee
hearings.
Travis (11:15):
So what they're looking at here is like funding and the
allocation of funds.
That's like what falls underoversight or things that are
maybe not looked at too deeply.
Right, this is.
This was part of a biggerhearing, not just about UAPs.
Josh (11:28):
It was about.
What are our steps?
What are we going to do?
Like the first one, we know theproblem.
Now, what do we need to putinto place, what do we need to
stop or what do we need to lookinto to make things better?
So July 26, 2023, the US HouseCommittee on Oversight and
Accountability held asignificant hearing titled
Unidentified Anomalous PhenomenaImplications on National
(11:52):
Security, Public Safety andgovernment transparency.
And they really nailed home thetransparency thing.
So this session aimed toexplore the potential threats
posed by the unidentified aerialphenomena, or UAPs, and
assesses the government'stransparency regarding these
incidences.
So do you want to talk aboutthe witnesses that came forward?
Travis (12:10):
Yeah, I've got a couple things.
You have them ranked.
Josh (12:14):
You have your own personal rank of who you like best.
Travis (12:18):
I did.
I ranked them, but you likethem all.
I felt like these witnesstestimonies were the most
compelling part of thesehearings.
Like I said earlier, I feltlike some reps did not do enough
of checking of boxes and itlooked like a lot of them just
showed up and barely read theirstatements or their questions
and you could tell by the waythey were asking the questions.
(12:40):
Like one rep was like gettingto a point and then he stops and
then just says occam's razorand then continues on without
explaining what he was trying toget at.
He just said occam's razor aslike uh, I'm not going to
explain to you what I think itis.
Maybe I don't understand whatit is.
My aides wrote it down.
You know aides, they're alwaysjust adding in their own voice.
Josh (13:01):
Yeah, I remember you telling me about that.
I didn't remember that moment,but from how you explained it it
sounded as though he said itkind of like a transition, but
it just didn't make any sense.
Travis (13:09):
I think he wanted to go somewhere with it, but then he
didn't understand.
And that's the point I wastrying to make is, I don't think
he read through his ownpersonal dossier that was given
to him by his aides.
I think that he had opened itup right before walking in, read
through parts of it, tried tounderstand it as best he could
and then, without reading it, hehad just mentioned a couple of
things that he remembered.
(13:30):
When he realized that he'd madea mistake, he just tried to
move on.
Yeah, so that's, that'sfrustrating.
So I think the weakest point ofthis was some of the
questioning.
But there were some realstandouts, I feel like, in this,
but let's, let's just talkabout the three witnesses.
So yeah, grush, fravor andGraves saying it is that one
name.
Grush, fravor and Graves, andsaying it in that sequence it
(13:50):
sounds like the farm villainsfrom the Fantastic Mr Fox to me,
but, like I said, they were themost compelling piece of
evidence.
Usually I'm of the thinkingthat eyewitness accounts are.
We talked about memory a lot onthe show.
They are subject to memory.
But Fravor, the commander thatwas cited as witnessing the Tic
(14:12):
Tac event what I really likedwas that he had said towards his
closing arguments witnessesneed to stop treating these as
like a big fish story.
And we talked about this withlike the game of telephone, how
a story gets bigger and biggerthe more you tell it.
And he said write yourinformation down and stick to
that information that you have.
Don't try to make it biggerthan it is.
(14:33):
Yeah, and I found thatabsolutely in line with how I
feel about eyewitness testimony.
Josh (14:37):
I thought of you when he was talking about that Aw.
Travis (14:40):
Yeah, that was Commander David Fravor.
As far as rankings go, he's mynumber two.
Josh (14:44):
He's a retired Navy commander and former commanding
officer of the Black AcesSquadron.
Yeah, he's renowned for his2004 encounter with the UAP,
often referred to as the Tic Tacincident.
We did an episode about UAPencounters that have actual
footage from the government.
Travis (15:00):
And he said something about the propulsion system that
we see here, right, like we usecombustible engines, things
that burn through fuel, andthat's what propels them forward
, and also that most ways wenavigate through the air
requires us to have wings right.
So what is that Bernoulli'sprinciple that the air flies
over and then off, gives lift,these things that he identified
as giant Tic Tacs?
(15:21):
And that was another funnything is that some of the reps
and again this is a fault of ourrepresentatives they kept
calling it Tic Tacs and theykept saying Tic Tac.
And then Burchette said I saidTic Tac, I don't mean the
communist Chinese app, and I waslike that's, oh yeah, shut up,
like, like, shut up, that's.
That's you aligning yourselfpolitically with what's going on
(15:43):
.
Josh (15:43):
And then he made a joke about his daughter calling him a
boomer.
And then he said happyanniversary to his wife.
Travis (15:49):
Yeah, it was just like what the hell is going on Like.
What are you why?
Yeah, it was just like what thehell is going on Like.
What are you doing?
Josh (15:54):
Yeah, no one is here for this right now.
Travis (15:55):
We're here to get some serious information.
Josh (15:58):
Yeah, some of these people have been working for decades
to get this to happen.
Travis (16:01):
He kept saying gold, darn it.
It was political grandstanding,so I found that pretty
frustrating.
Anyway, what Fravor had saidthat I think was pretty cool is
that these UAPs that he hadspotted and had nicknamed Tic
Tacs- yeah.
He's like basically, think of agiant propane cylinder flying
through the air.
That's what it looks like, andthat was again in reference to
(16:22):
one of the reps calling it TicTac.
Again, he's like nope, think ofit as like a giant propane
cylinder, like a Tic Tac.
Josh (16:28):
With no propulsion.
Travis (16:29):
That they could identify .
Yep, there was something that'smoving it forward.
We just don't understand whatit is.
Josh (16:34):
Right Magnets.
It very well could be magnetsthere is when they go and test
the areas after a UAP sighting,there is a lot of
electromagnetic interferencehappening.
Travis (16:45):
I believe it.
Earth has a very strongelectromagnetic field, so maybe
they've harnessed the power ofmagnets.
Yeah, just the third greatestpower on Earth After air.
Josh (16:55):
So maybe they've harnessed the power of magnets.
Yeah, just the third greatestpower on.
Travis (16:56):
Earth After Aaron Walsh.
Oh no, you're listing theCaptain Planet, earth's
Mightiest Heroes.
Josh (17:05):
Yeah, so that was Commander David Fravor.
We also have David Grush, oneof my favorite.
He was a former intelligenceofficer with 14 years experience
in the US Air Force.
Travis (17:17):
He was the whistleblower that brought these hearings to
this proceeding.
He was.
The reason why they'rediscussing this is because it
was his efforts.
Josh (17:27):
When I think of a whistleblower, I think of
someone that found out someinformation like this isn't
right, and then they go andwhistle about it.
They tell everyone this is notwhat he did.
He filed paperwork to legallywhistleblow, saying that this is
an emergency.
Travis (17:43):
Yep.
He whistleblew within theparameters of the US military
right, Like he tried to doeverything above board.
Josh (17:50):
And he is still and it's crazy and he still has his
clearance, which is why he's sospecific with his words and what
he can and cannot say, becausethere's a lot of people trying
to get his clearance taken awayso that he can no longer testify
.
Travis (18:02):
He's a former intelligence officer.
Josh (18:04):
Yeah, so he's a former intelligence officer with 14
years of experience, no longeran intelligence officer.
No, but he still has hisclearance, same as Elizondo,
which is bonkers.
I don't understand how thatworks.
14 years of experience in theUS Air Force and National
Geospatial Intelligence Agency.
Grush served as arepresentative on two Pentagon
task force investigating UAPs.
(18:25):
My favorite thing about him isthat he was given max clearance,
the highest clearance you can,and he went and interviewed 40
something people to find outeverything that they know, this
release on his News Nationinterview that he'd been talking
about all throughout.
Travis (18:40):
Yes, so he told AOC, who I felt like she had her facts
in line.
She's like, okay, you'retelling me all of this stuff,
where can I find this stuff, thestuff that you've researched?
Is this accessible?
Is this something that we canfind Like very pointed question
which I really appreciate and hesaid now I can share with you
outside of the meeting, in aless formal setting.
(19:02):
I'm not in this public hearing.
Also, I did a News Nationinterview and that's where you
can find some of the information.
Josh (19:08):
Yeah, so he knows almost everything.
But there was some people insome places he tried to go and
get interviews.
It just didn't happen.
He got stonewalled in certainsituations, as well as some of
these Congress people trying togo and get information.
And some of these Congresspeople were trying to get secret
skiffs done with Grush, andthey were denied.
(19:28):
They're like no, you can't, wedon't want you to find out what
he knows.
So I really like him.
He just seems like a realstandup guy, really intelligent.
He has all this knowledge.
It seems, though, he'ssystematically trying to release
as much as he can without goingto prison.
Travis (19:45):
Yeah, he was my least favorite of the three.
Not saying that that's bad, butthere's got to be a bottom.
He was my three.
My number one was Ryan Grave.
Josh (19:52):
Oh.
Travis (19:53):
He was the younger member of this panel.
I just liked how he was comingat this in a very like an
endearing manner.
When he was going through hisstatement, he was reading from
something that he'd written, andI just found that charming.
Josh (20:08):
And he's there representing a lot of people,
like in the private sector aswell as in the military.
Travis (20:20):
He was a big advocate for having a more formal process
for reporting this.
So I don't know if it was Grushor Graves that said later in
the hearing that it was afeeling they had Nothing that
was bad, because there's no wayto really validate this feeling,
but they feel like only 5% ofUAP sightings get reported.
So that means 95% of thesightings that are out there are
not reported and that's becauseof either intimidation or
(20:41):
stigma, and they're trying tode-stigmatize seeing something
that you might think is weird.
Yeah, they want people to feelmore comfortable reporting this,
and that's another thing that Iappreciate about these three.
Josh (20:53):
Yeah, people are withholding information because
they don't want to be labeledcrazy because of the stigma and
they don't want to lose theirjob or their career or their
rank that they've been workingfor their entire lives.
Their lives could be destroyedby saying a sentence Right,
which is insane and it's not abad sentence yeah, sentence,
which is insane and it's not abad sentence.
So, ryan Graves he's a formerUS Navy pilot and he's also the
(21:14):
executive director of Americansfor Safe Aerospace.
He's been really vocal aboutthe UAP sightings and advocate
for improving the reportingmechanisms for the pilots,
because there's nothing in place.
Like these guys, they seesomething.
If they report it, it's totheir direct superior or their
bosses if it's commercialflights, and nothing happens
about it, or they are deemedcrazy and they lose their job.
(21:37):
So he's a baller for sure, andhe's kind of like the little man
standing up and making a bigchange.
Travis (21:42):
But he's coming at it from a practical point of view,
which is what I reallyappreciate, that appeal to like
my sensibilities which is what Ireally appreciated.
Josh (21:51):
That appealed to my sensibilities.
His testimony mainly justhighlighted the frequency of UAP
encounters during trainingmissions off the US East Coast
and, just like I said, he'semphasizing the formal reporting
system for safety risks.
I mean, he's not out theretrying to find aliens.
The most important part to himisn't the technology, it's we
know, it's there.
Travis (22:09):
It's happening and also just being like safe.
He wants his pilots to be ableto fly in a safe environment,
and so a way to do that isdocument any sort of anomalous
behavior that you might see asyou're out flying.
You know whether that's wind,or you know inclement weather or
birds, you know whatever,whatever may be the case,
(22:29):
buildings, that kind of thing.
He's approaching this from apractical standpoint.
Josh (22:32):
It's very logical that if there's something there,
everyone should know about it.
Travis (22:36):
Yep, or if that is going to be something that you're
going to encounter, we shouldhave a system in place for
reporting it and documentingwhere it was seen and the nature
of that sighting.
Josh (22:46):
Yeah, him showing up and him saying that he has like 30
people behind him, that he'srepresenting, that all have
their stories and theirincidences and, like you said,
he was endearing.
But because of how endearing hewas, it also made me kind of
proud for him.
It was just like, yeah, get it,man, like you're doing it.
Yep, and he was.
I mean it's very impressivewhat he's done.
(23:07):
Fravor, I've seen him indocumentaries.
Right, this was by far the bestanything I've seen from him.
He just really talked about theTic Tac incident and what that
meant.
He went through the whole thing.
Travis (23:20):
At one point he was asked about the Phoenix Lights
by another one of the reps thathad nothing to do with this and
he's like why I'm in Arizona?
So what do you know about thePhoenix Lights?
And he's like nothing.
Man, like I know as much as youdo what's out in the public
discourse.
Yeah, like you tell me, likewhat do you know about the
Phoenix sites?
You're a rep for Arizona, whatdo you know about it?
And that wasn't under Fravor'spurview and that's not why he
(23:42):
was there.
He wasn't there to report onthe.
Phoenix sites.
Part of this that was sodisappointing to me was some of
the representatives askingquestions that don't make any
sense and they're just like well, I know something about this,
I'm going to ask that questionInstead of doing the little bit
of homework that was required ofthem.
With the people that were therein front of them, they were
just like well, I know aboutPhoenix Lights and Kurt Russell
(24:02):
was involved right, that'spretty cool.
What do you know about that?
And he's just like I liked howthey were respectful but
dismissive, and they were justlike.
That was not why I'm here.
Let's move on.
Let's talk about the thing thatI'm here to talk about.
Josh (24:15):
Yeah, I find it interesting.
So Ryan Graves, he was reallyfocused on safety.
Yep Right Commander DavidFravor was really focused on
technology and science.
Travis (24:28):
Like that and science and science.
Yeah, that's a thing that Ithought was really cool.
Josh (24:32):
Yeah, he was like this is far beyond anything that we have
.
We're getting a little bitcloser but we're not anywhere
near it.
But this TikTok video that hewas a part of that was in 2004.
We didn't even have iPhonesthen, yeah.
So he's been on this bigcrusade letting people know that
this happened.
This is real.
This technology couldpotentially be a national
(24:54):
security threat If one of ourenemies or another country gets
this stuff.
If they can just show up anddip out instantly and we can't
do anything about it.
That's scary.
So if this technology exists,we need to know and understand
it.
So that was kind of cool.
I really liked when he wasexplaining the whole day
basically what happened.
Someone asked well, what didyour commanding officer say?
(25:15):
And he's like I was thecommanding officer.
He's like there's nothing Icould say yeah, I didn't know
what was going on.
I love that.
So he was the big cheese inthat situation.
And now he's showing up sayinglike, yeah, this is all real,
yeah.
And now he's showing up sayinglike, yeah, this is all real,
yeah.
And then David Grush hetestified about the multi-decade
UAP crash retrieval andreversal engineering program
(25:37):
that he was informed of duringhis duties.
So he claimed that the USgovernment has been aware of
non-human activity since the1930s and alleged the recovery
of a non-human biologics fromcrash sites.
So this guy knows all the info.
He can't talk about much, whichwas very underwhelming, but he
was able to say enough that wasvery intriguing.
But from his research and hisknowledge, there is non-biologic
(26:02):
retrieval programs with thePentagon and he also mentioned
that there is a disinformationprogram that exists.
He was focusing on thewhistleblowers.
He's standing up for those guysand he's doing what a lot of
people can't, and he's doing itthe correct way, because he
mentioned multiple times that hewas not treated well.
(26:22):
He used the word corporateterrorism, where they would
threaten him with removing hisrank or his clearance, and he
said that would happen on theprofessional level, but he also
was threatened on his personallevel.
Travis (26:36):
Corporate terrorism was a term that he gave it.
That's not necessarily what hewas experiencing.
That's just how he defined itright.
Corporate terrorism could meana number of different things,
but that's just how he felt hewas being treated.
Josh (26:48):
Yeah, he was basically being powered into and
strong-armed.
Travis (26:52):
Through a lot of different means, like
gaslighting is one of them.
You know where they tell youwhat you saw is wrong or it's
not true, or whatever.
You know a lot ofwhistleblowers, not just here
but across the spectrum ofblowing whistles.
They all experience that.
Josh (27:07):
Yeah.
Travis (27:08):
Whether it's, you know, misogyny in the workplace.
Even in cases of rape ormolestation, those are thrown
around.
Like you didn't experience whatyou think you experienced,
You're wrong.
Josh (27:20):
Yeah.
Travis (27:21):
So it's usually the oppressor or the person
perpetrating these crimes ortrying to hide it that uses the
gaslighting.
Josh (27:29):
Yeah, and it sounded, though, because they asked him
some follow-up questions aboutsome of the things that happened
, and he said that he wasn'table to talk about it because
they have an ongoing caseagainst the people that have
done that and he doesn't want togive them any kind of
ammunition Right.
And they also followed up withhave you known anyone that has
been hurt or?
And they even eventually askedanyone been murdered?
(27:49):
And he known anyone that hasbeen hurt or, and they even
eventually asked anyone beenmurdered and he said I, I can't
I can't, I can't talk about that, yeah and that could mean a
number of different things.
Travis (27:56):
That could mean that he knows and can't talk about it,
or it's something outside of hisrealm of knowledge, like he's
not gonna make a blanketstatement, say like yeah, people
were murdered or no, peopleweren't murdered I mean
naturally.
Josh (28:07):
I want to just assume whenever he says I can't talk
about it, it means the answer isyes, like in anything, like are
there aliens?
It's like I can't talk aboutthat.
Travis (28:16):
It's like he means yes, Are they human that you saw or
no?
And they're like I can't saythat.
I will say they were non-human.
Well, why are you sayingnon-human instead of
extraterrestrial?
Josh (28:36):
It's like, because that's the information that I have and
that's as much as I can sayabout it.
Yeah, some of the key takeawaysfrom this, I think government
transparency.
I mean they mentioned multipletimes the witnesses as well as
the committee.
Yeah, no one has trust in thegovernment right now, for good
reason.
But hearing the underscoredbipartisan concerns about the
lack of transparency from themilitary and the intelligence
agencies regarding UAPs, thelawmakers expressed frustration
over the overclassification andthe withholding of information
(28:58):
from Congress and public.
There was also a takeaway ofnational security implications.
So the witnesses and lawmakersdiscussed the potential national
security risks posed by theUAPs, especially given their
proximity to the militaryinstallations and critical
infrastructure.
Like we've seen the jellyfishone that's just cruising through
(29:18):
a black site.
Yeah, and then recently there'sbeen a lot of hive-like
behavior of UAPs around militarystuff and all through history
they're very interested inmilitary bases or nuclear sites,
which is spooky.
Yeah, there needs to be a needfor a comprehensive
understanding of these phenomenawas emphasized to ensure
(29:39):
airspace safety.
And then there's a huge callfor further investigation.
The testimonies highlighted thenecessity for continued
investigation into UAPs andadvocating for the establishment
of a formal reporting mechanismand a greater government
transparency to address publicconcerns and potential threats.
So two thumbs up.
It was good.
Yeah, it was good.
It was nice to get thisinformation and it's through the
(30:01):
right channels and it is onpublic record, like that is
really important.
And it is nice about thebipartisanship.
This isn't about all thesethings that everyone disagrees
about.
This is about humanity safety.
Travis (30:15):
What it should definitely be about.
Yeah, but again, we saw withthese hearings and it was from
the people that were saying thatit should be bipartisan that I
felt were the most partisan, andyou can tell.
Josh (30:26):
You definitely could tell they were thrown in little jabs
here and there about things thathad nothing to do with the
hearing.
Yeah.
So the congressional hearing onUAPs is a huge shift in the
government's approach to thistopic.
I recently saw an article thatthere was some lights, some
weird funky lights, happening inOregon and four different
(30:48):
pilots reported them and theyeven call.
There's a audio clip from airtraffic control and he's saying
just avoid the UFO and justmaintain your own thing.
So obviously the stigma isgoing away because it's becoming
a little more prominent.
These pilots were not afraid ofreporting something weird and
suspicious and odd and it's just.
(31:08):
It's exciting that it's working.
I mean, I think that gets usone step closer to the big goal
of the big goal.
Travis (31:17):
I kind of know where you're going with this, but good
, I didn't even know where I wasgoing.
Josh (31:20):
Oh, okay, I'm glad you interrupted me, cause I had
nothing to say after that.
Travis (31:24):
Well, what do you think the big goal is here?
What is the point of thesehearings?
Do you?
What do you think?
Josh (31:29):
I think the point is to have an understanding of what's
going on and to have thepentagon held accountable for
hiding things, and I think theydo need to declassify things.
They mentioned that a couple oftimes is like there needs to be
term limits on some of theseimages where it no longer poses
a threat, and they're sayingmaybe 15 years.
(31:50):
Does that sound good?
Yeah, there should be.
They should release images, butno one's in charge of the
Pentagon.
That's the thing.
And that actually gets into thethird one.
Oh, secretary of defense, thethird hearing I watched a little
bit of it is so good.
Yeah, a lot of therepresentatives are not joking
anymore, they're just pissed,and I think what happened is all
(32:12):
these people went into theseskiffs, learned a lot more
information that we're notsupposed to know, and they are
livid.
They now have new documentationand new witnesses coming
forward with a lot moreinformation and they are not
having it and they are out forblood.
And it is a whole differentenergy in the room.
Okay, so it is a wholedifferent energy in the room.
Okay, so it is very exciting butI think that's the big goal is
(32:34):
to hold the Pentagon accountable, because they're doing whatever
they want and it doesn't matter, and no one can tell them not
to, basically, and they'rewithholding things from the
public, they're withholdingthings from the Congress, and we
all want answers, yeah, and soI think that's the big thing we
want the answers, I want answers, I do too, and it seems as
(32:55):
though, by how they're acting,that they have them.
Travis (32:58):
Who?
The government, because thegovernment the military.
Okay, well, yeah, yep, that'sthe problem, damn.
Josh (33:03):
That concludes this one.
I'm excited.
Basically, we're going to do apart two with this.
Travis (33:08):
Not covering 2022, right , Because fuck you 2022.
That whole year was garbage.
Josh (33:13):
Yeah, there was a couple of years that were garbage there
, but 2022, we were like abusevictims getting out of an
abusive relationship, trying toget out of an abusive
relationship, and we were tryingto reintegrate into society.
Travis (33:26):
We're grabbing our shoes and coat, trying to run out the
door, and then they're like ohguess what into society.
We're grabbing our shoes andcoat, trying to run out the door
, and then they're like oh guesswhat Aliens exist and we're
like the fuck, I don't, yeah,why?
Josh (33:34):
now, because they made us become all alcoholics.
And then they're like, oh yeah,and aliens exist.
Yeah, that's the big plan.
Get us drunk Worked, yeah.
So I'm curious on what other?
This is a big hearing.
We weren't able to cover everysingle topic, but yeah, if you
guys want to message us, letyour friends know about us so
that they can learn, yep.
(33:54):
If they don't want to hear youtalk about it, yeah.
Or if you're a broken record.
Yeah, this is a niche podcast, Iunderstand that, but you know
it's also kind of fun if you'reinterested in like dipping your
toe into the otherworldly yeah,and if you're a fan, if you want
a soft way to introduce peopleinto this category, I would
imagine this podcast is a littlesofter than most.
Travis (34:16):
Yes, a hundred percent.
It's designed that way it isyeah, tell your friends.
Josh (34:21):
And next episode we're going to be talking about 2024,
hearing the one that happenedwith the immaculate consolation
oh boy, yeah.
And then, like I said, ourresearcher, jordan, my wife, has
made it, so I cannot researchanything about that, but she
said it is batshit and she getsexcited in front of me about it
and I can't do anything about itand I am mad.
(34:42):
She's disabled your Google.
Yeah, well, I have to honor ourvows.
Okay, that was in our vows.
Travis (34:49):
I can't research aliens without.
Without her express consent.
Josh (34:52):
Yeah, well, cool Well, thank you for listening, guys
this is a ride.
Travis (34:57):
Yeah, this has been fun.
Do we do any special thanks atthe end of this?
Anybody, we need to acknowledgeyour wife, maybe For doing most
of the heavy lifting.
Yeah, being our a researcher,my wife did the research.
Josh (35:12):
Our theme song yes, so our wife I mean my wife, she's not
our wife, our wife, my wife,jordan, is phenomenal.
She is a producer of podcastsand she helped with giving us a
leg up giving us a leg up,guiding us through this leg up,
guiding us through this wholeprocess, and we wouldn't be half
(35:33):
of what we are without her inthis adventure of ours with this
podcast, correct.
So thank you, jordan, foreverything you do and thank you
listeners for listening.
Yeah, thank you.
Travis (35:45):
All right, okay, bye, okay, bye.
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