Psychic Spies: The True Story of Project Stargate

Your thoughts might be capable of traveling where your body cannot. For over twenty years, the United States government poured resources into exploring this seemingly impossible concept through a classified program eventually known as Project Stargate.

Remote viewing—the ability to mentally perceive and describe distant locations without using conventional senses—wasn't just a fringe experiment. It involved serious scientists, military personnel, and intelligence agencies looking for unconventional ways to gather information during the Cold War. What began as a response to rumors of Soviet psychic research evolved into a fascinating exploration of human consciousness and its potential capabilities.

The results were extraordinary and puzzling. Some remote viewers accurately described Soviet military installations before satellite confirmation. Others predicted features of Jupiter that astronomers didn't yet know existed. One viewer even claimed to have mentally traveled to Mars one million years in the past, describing tall beings seeking shelter from environmental catastrophe. These successes suggested something profound about human consciousness that conventional science struggles to explain.

Yet the program was plagued by inconsistency. While statistical analysis showed results far beyond chance, practical applications remained elusive. Only about 1% of tested individuals demonstrated consistent ability, and training didn't reliably improve performance. The program bounced between agencies before being officially terminated in 1995—though some speculate it continues in classified operations.

What makes this story so compelling isn't just the possibility of psychic spying, but what it suggests about human potential. If even some of these documented cases are genuine, our understanding of consciousness may be dramatically incomplete. Could your mind already possess abilities that science has yet to fully comprehend or explain?

Whether you're fascinated by government secrets, human potential, or the unexplained, the remote viewing program represents one of the most serious scientific investigations into phenomena typically relegated to science fiction. What truths might we discover if we look beyond conventional understanding and dare to explore the full capabilities of the human mind?

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Episode Transcript

Josh (00:04):
aliens yes but maybe no.
Welcome back to the show.
Aliens, yes, but maybe no, butmaybe no With Josh and Travis.

(00:25):
I'm Travis, I'm Josh.
This is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title.
So, josh, yeah.
What did we talk about lastweek?
Crop circles, that's right.
Crop circles, yeah.
Where do we fall on that?
Do we give a final judgment?

Travis (00:40):
I believe that there are fake ones and there are real
ones and you can distinguishthem by some of the ways they
grow afterwards and flourish,and yeah, that was kind of where
I fell.

Josh (00:53):
I think I was more of like it's a hoax.

Travis (00:55):
Yeah, I think you were too.
Yeah, I've always heard aboutcrop circles but I never really
researched it, so it was kind ofcool to get a top down view.

Josh (01:04):
Yeah, Okay, good, this week probably should have
started the show with paranormal.
Yes, but maybe no.

Travis (01:10):
Potentially, yeah, because it's not like a full-on
aliens episode this week.

Josh (01:23):
Yeah, we'll talk a little bit about it just because it is
mentioned, but it's not the maintheme.
Yeah, so some of the subjectsof our discussion today do
acknowledge their believedexistence of aliens and that
they exist, but it's not reallythe meat of what we're going to
be talking about today, which issome X-Men type shit.

Travis (01:41):
Yeah, professor X.
Yeah, we're going to talk aboutremote viewing, yep, which I
mean, I don't even think we needto talk.
Yeah, professor X.
Yeah, we're going to talk aboutremote viewing, yep, which I
mean, I don't even think we needto talk about it, everyone
knows.
So have a good week.

Josh (01:50):
What is remote viewing?
Is that just like you look atyour remote and then you view
the guide?

Travis (01:57):
Yeah, it's a little screen on your remote so you
don't have to watch the TV.
You can just watch your remoteyeah.

Josh (02:02):
So you don't have to watch the TV, you can just watch your
remote.

Travis (02:04):
Yeah, that's pretty cool , yeah.
So yeah, remote viewing prettycrazy.
We got a taste of it from ourquiz that we took last time.

Josh (02:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and reference a very fun movie the
Men who Stare at Goats.

Travis (02:16):
Yeah, yeah, which I have yet to see you have.

Josh (02:18):
I've seen it a couple of times.

Travis (02:20):
Yeah, I'm very excited about watching that and I'm very
excited about this episodebecause remote viewing is
batshit.

Josh (02:27):
It's wild.
It's a wild thing testing thelimits of what people can do,
right?
Yeah, maybe it's true, but alot of it is subjective to that
person and this sort of let'sget like a rough idea.
So have you heard of remoteviewing?
Anytime, like recently, do youknow much about remote viewing?

Travis (02:48):
I think I saw a post about something I didn't know
really what it was, and I thinkI heard about it in a
documentary.

Josh (02:56):
So everything I know about remote viewing comes from
another term called astralprojection, where it happens
like you can do this in yourdreams or something that can be
reached in like a deepmeditative state, and you can
move your consciousness and seeother things throughout the
world, like visit people andyeah, I've seen astral
projection referenced in showslike uh, adventure, time and

(03:20):
legion yeah, with uh dan ste.

Travis (03:23):
It's always been very intriguing.
I haven't really given it muchthought.
In the real world it's justlike, oh, that's so cool, like
it's kind of like the idea ofthe multiverse and stuff like
that.
You're like, oh, that's supercool.

Josh (03:36):
Yeah.

Travis (03:36):
Not realizing that it could potentially be a real
thing, yeah, but I guess it'sreal enough.

Josh (03:42):
Yeah, I feel like it's.
I mean, it's wild just thinkingabout this kind of stuff for me
.

Travis (03:49):
Yeah, I'm going to kind of start this off with the
history.

Josh (03:52):
Yeah, let's tuck into the dossier a little bit.

Travis (03:54):
Yeah.
So for over 20 years, the USgovernment quietly funded a
program to explore somethingmany people still considered
science fiction the ability togather information using only
the mind.
It was called remote viewing,and it wasn't just a fringe
experiment.
It involved physicists,military officers, intelligence
agencies and some of the mostsurprising claims ever made in

(04:17):
the world of espionage.
So they used it for spying,from locating hostages to
describing top secret Sovietfacilities.
These so-called psychic spieswere tasked with doing the
impossible, and sometimes theydid it.
If any of this sounds familiar,you might be thinking like you
said the men who stare at goats.
Yeah, a book by journalist JohnRonson.

Josh (04:40):
Yeah, doesn't that sound made up?

Travis (04:41):
John Ronson.

Josh (04:42):
I know he's an actual journalist.
I usually do a lot of researchbefore not a lot, but like my
own supplementary researchbefore doing this.
Before we showed up today, Ididn't do anything.

Travis (04:53):
Oh.

Josh (04:53):
I just wanted to get lost in the rhythm, lost in the rhyme
.
Get on up, it's podcast time, Iget it.
So anyway, john Ronson, it doessound like a made up name.

Travis (05:03):
Yeah, he later turned this into a film starring
handsome George Clooney.

Josh (05:08):
And the handsome Ewan McGregor, oh, and the handsome
Jeff Bridges oh my gosh.
And the handsome Stephen Lang.

Travis (05:13):
Well, I probably shouldn't watch that movie with
all those handsome men.

Josh (05:17):
There's also some goats.
Oh well, maybe I should, andthey get stared at.

Travis (05:24):
They get stared the fuck at man, hopefully with consent.
So the Men who Stare at Goats.
This title comes from a realexperiment.
Soldiers at Fort Bragg werereportedly trained to try and
stop a goat's heart using onlytheir minds.
As strange as it sounds, it waspart of a broader effort to
explore psychic abilities forwarfare.

Josh (05:46):
Alongside things like invisibility and walking through
walls, they stared at a goatfor over an hour.
It's just so funny.

Travis (05:51):
So let's dive into the odd but true history of Project
Stargate, the CIA's real psychicspying program, and explore
what decades of researchactually revealed so remote
viewing.
Decades of research actuallyrevealed so remote viewing.
This is what came of this wholeprogram.
According to a CIA documentwhich is 30 pages, declassified

(06:17):
in 2002, remote viewing isdefined as an experiment in
which a viewer attempts to drawor describe or both a target
location, photograph, object orshort video segment.
So remote viewing, or anomalouscognition, experiments began in
the 1970s.
In a remote viewing session, abeacon or sender travels to a
secret location.
A remote viewer tries todescribe that location using

(06:41):
only their mind.
Their description, oftendrawings and verbal notes, is
judged against several possiblesites.
If the viewer's descriptionmatches the actual site, more
often than chance, it'sconsidered a hit.

Josh (06:51):
So there are some things here that I just don't
fundamentally understand.
They say it's a secret location, but they're sending something
there, so it's not a secretlocation, right?
So there is information beingpassed to whoever is proctoring
this exam or whatever you wantto call it with this viewer.
Like we watched this videoabout haze, did they send a
beacon to mount haze for thisremote viewer to view?

(07:13):
Is that what you just readthere is that?
Am I understanding this right?

Travis (07:17):
a beacon or sender travels to a secret location, so
that would be the access point,like what they're finding.
It would be the access pointlike what they're trying to find
.

Josh (07:25):
It would be the B to like an AB line, right?
If I was calling you, I wouldbe let's put this, and this is
me dumbly trying to figure outwhat that line means I, the
remote viewer, call you, josh SnSnodgrass on a phone.
You would be the beacon, isthat?

(07:47):
Am I understanding that right?
But that beacon has beenplanted there by somebody else.

Travis (07:53):
Yeah, this has a beacon or sender travels to a secret
location.
So I mean, this was one of mybig questions in doing our
research is these people wouldgive them a location and then
they would basically astralproject to that location.
How can, like, if someone gaveme coordinates, how would I be
able to get there?
Do I know all coordinates to beable to do that?

(08:15):
I don't know.
Yeah, but basically they'regiven coordinates and nothing
else and then they're asked whatis described there and then
they'll usually follow up andcheck to see if it's accurate or
not and then if it's accurate,then that's a hit.
They will say that this wassuccessful.
And if someone has enoughsuccesses and then also if
others can do it as well withoutprior knowledge, then what is

(08:39):
happening is real.
That's how they would test it.
So in the mid 19801980s theArmy Research Institute asked
the National Research Council,or the NRC, to review a wide
range of performance-enhancingtechniques.
A high-level panel led by DavidGoslin published their findings
in the 1988 report EnhancingHuman Performance.
While they found some supportfor techniques like guided

(09:01):
imagery, they found little to noevidence that things like sleep
learning or remote viewing wereeffective.

Josh (09:07):
What is sleep learning Like, where they just try to put
information into your headwhile you're asleep?

Travis (09:11):
Yeah, like playing a different language in headphones
while you sleep.
I think that's the sleeplearning, which would be so cool
.

Josh (09:18):
I would love that.

Travis (09:19):
It would make things so easy.
Yeah, I'd never have to learnagain.

Josh (09:22):
You could learn Kung Fu.
You could learn how to fly ahelicopter.

Travis (09:25):
Yeah, or jump across buildings, yeah, or fall.
I mean, I don't believe enough.
So despite this mostly negativereview, the government
sponsored remote viewing.
Research continued Between 1986and early 1990s.
50 to 100 new studies wereconducted and many of them
attempted to fix earlier flawsidentified by the RNC.

(09:46):
It's wild.
Later the CIA was asked byCongress to take over the remote
viewing program, which is weirdbecause we're seeing nowadays
that there's kind of adisconnect between the military
and Congress.

Josh (09:59):
Not really, because, I mean, congress does approve
funding, and so I think that'swhat they were probably doing.
You have, like oversightcommittees and there'll be
certain senators that are incharge of certain aspects of you
know, like military funding,and it's their responsibility to
be like the liaison to Congressor the president.
Yeah, that way, you know, youdon't have one person just
trying to dictate and absorb allthis information.

(10:21):
So like I think that's broad bysaying that they talked to
Congress when it was probablyjust like one or two individuals
.

Travis (10:28):
Yeah, that's true.
So before making the decision,the CIA commissioned an
evaluation to determine, one,whether the newer research had
long-term value for intelligentgathering and, two, what changes
would improve the researchapproach.
They hired the AmericanInstitute for Research, air, to
conduct this evaluation, andthen, in 1988, researchers

(10:51):
analyzed 154 experimentsconducted at SRI between 1973
and 1988, involving over 26,000trials and 227 participants.

Josh (11:03):
How do you get that many people involved in this?
Is this like the back of acomic book advertisement?
If you've ever astral traveledbefore, we're interested in you.
Uncle Sam wants you.

Travis (11:14):
This was mainly military personnel, so they're actually
sent over to do those trainings.
So most of the people that arein these programs were already
in the military.

Josh (11:24):
That's not what I read.
I read that they had sent outbroad communication.
This is when they realized thisstuff can't be taught, because
some of the military personnelthey tried to teach this
information, like they tried toteach them astral travel, and
they found, if you can do it, ifthis does in fact exist, it's a
natural talent and can't betaught.

Travis (11:41):
I had the opposite.

Josh (11:43):
I heard that that they only tested on military people.

Travis (11:46):
No, that it can be taught and that's what they were
doing.
They had trainers and differentthings that were teaching
everyone to do it.

Josh (11:51):
It says that right in our dossier.
You have to have a naturalability to it.

Travis (11:55):
So the people with a natural ability, those were like
the prodigies that were able topinpoint and go and do crazy
things.
But normal people would be ableto do it with training.
I don't know how long thetraining takes, so the results
were statistically extraordinary, far beyond what chance could
explain, suggesting a realmeasurable effect.
While early studies had flaws,similar results in later, more

(12:19):
rigorously controlled experiencesupported the idea that remote
viewing might be genuine.
A standout group ofparticipants group G1, performed
especially well in these latertests.
So here's some of the findingsfrom the analysis.
Free response remote viewingdescribing a target was much
more successful than forcedchoice tasks picking from a set

(12:41):
of options.
A small group of six topperformers consistently
outperformed others even underdifferent conditions, suggesting
their abilities were genuineand not due to flawed methods.
Three mass screening foundabout 1% of volunteers had
consistent remote viewingability, which much like natural
talent in sports or music.

(13:02):
Four training didn't reliablyimprove remote viewing.
It's easier to find talent thanto teach it.
Five feedback may helpmotivation but isn't clearly
necessary.

Josh (13:16):
Of course, telling somebody the right answer is
going to influence how they'regoing to remote view.
You're looking for a cat.
Okay, I see something that hasfour legs, and maybe orange.
It's chasing a mouse andthey're like, oh man, nailed it.

Travis (13:33):
This may not be saying telling them the answer before
they do it.
That's what it just saidFeedback.
So feedback is usually afterthe fact, right.
So feedback may help motivation, but isn't clearly necessary.

Josh (13:47):
That doesn't make any sense.
Like you think you saw a cat,I'm going to tell you you saw a
cat, and then that's notinformation.

Travis (13:54):
I mean it's more like what's in this envelope, what's
over in this room over there.
And if you tell them like, hey,you did a really good job?
They said it's good formotivation but it isn't really
necessary.
So this is just governmentmilitary people documenting.

Josh (14:10):
Yeah, that's not how I interpreted that part of the
dossier, and especially not theway that this was phrased.
Telling the subject the correctanswer may help motivation, but
isn't clearly necessary.
So, like, what is the point ofeven including that?
Because that's like okay, yeah,now I know you're going to ask
me about a cat in the future.

Travis (14:27):
I think it is laying the groundwork to say you don't
need to tell them that they werecorrect or not in their remote
viewing, like it can motivatethem to keep going, but it's not
necessary for the remoteviewing to truly work.
Okay, so that was number five.
Number six distance to thetarget doesn't affect results
and these are findings of theanalysis, right?

Josh (14:48):
so like I could be here asking to remote view something
in italy, and then I could alsobe in italy asking to remote
view something in italy, andthat's not going to determine
yeah, basically distance isn'tan issue.

Travis (15:00):
seven electromagnetic shielding has no impact on
performance, which is wild,because I mean it has impact on
everything else.
Sure Eight precognitiondescribing a target chosen after
the session also showed success.

Josh (15:15):
Why are you squinting?
What's that look?

Travis (15:17):
I'm just trying to comprehend that.
Okay, describing a targetchosen after the session also
showed success.

Josh (15:23):
I'm going to have to think about that a little bit also.

Travis (15:26):
Is that basically them doing it and then describing it
after they did it instead ofduring?

Josh (15:32):
Describing a target chosen after the session.
I don't know what that means,so maybe let's just move on.

Travis (15:38):
And then, lastly I mean not lastly there's a whole bunch
of other things that they cameup with, but what we have?
Nine, there's no evidencesupporting psychokinesis moving
objects with your mind.
So that was, in this air,research.
I mean, it sounds like they'reresearching every kind of
psychic ability they foundwalking through walls, moving

(15:58):
things.
These things could not exist.
That can't happen, at leastthat we know of so far.
So the conclusion of the studyreads as follows what is not so
clear is that we have progressedvery far in understanding the
mechanism for anomalouscognition.
Centers do not appear to benecessary at all.
Feedback of the correct answermay or may not be necessary.

(16:19):
Distance and time and space donot seem to be impotent.
Beyond those conclusions, weknow very little.
I believe that it would bewasteful of valuable resources
to continue to look for proof.
No one who has examined all thedata across laboratories taken
as a collective whole has beenable to suggest methodological
or statistical problems toexplain the ever-increasing and

(16:40):
consistent results to date.
Resources should be directed tothe pertinent questions about
how this ability works.
I'm confident that thequestions are no more elusive
than any other question inscience dealing with small to
medium-sized effects and that ifappropriate resources are
targeted to appropriatequestions, we can have the
answers within the next decade.

(17:01):
So that's what AIR concludedwith.

Josh (17:03):
They're basically saying it's pointless to keep this up.
It's pointless.
Yeah, there's nothingconclusive.
We're throwing a lot of moneyinto this program and we're not
really getting any definitiveresults.

Travis (17:14):
Yeah, we could fund any science and maybe get something
a little more substantial orhave the same result.
We could fund anythingbasically, yeah, so why did the
government care?

Josh (17:26):
Why did the government care?
Yeah, because we have beeninvolved in a Cold War with
Russia for decades.
At this point, we got into aCold War right after World War
II, right, and so there's a lotof information.
We have spies there, spies here.

Travis (17:39):
And the Cold War was basically just who's going to
strike first?

Josh (17:43):
Who's going to strike first?
Like we became a superpowerwhen we dropped a bomb on Japan.
That is when we became asuperpower, that's when the
world took notice of us.
Before that we were just not aflash in the pan, but we were a
very new democracy rising up.
We didn't have a whole lot ofwe haven't showed our force yet.
We didn't have any.
I mean, we didn't have a wholelot of force to show.

(18:05):
We weren't like the BritishEmpire that's got fleets and has
a history of, you know, takingcontrol of countries and Taking
everything yeah, takingeverything and then claiming it
as their own.
We didn't quite have thathistory just yet.
We were well on our, we were onour way, but we were not a
superpower yet until thathappened, that terrible day in
world history.
So after that happened,everybody took note of what we

(18:29):
had done and because nuclearpower was still very new, russia
was trying to develop their ownnuclear programs and they were
spying on us and then we werekeeping track of them and it was
like an arms race, which iswhat the Cold War was.
We were competing against eachother.
We viewed Russia as an enemy,just like Russia viewed us as an
enemy.

Travis (18:48):
Yeah.

Josh (18:48):
Right, and so there's a little bit, and I find this part
really funny is that they'renot really sure who let the
other side know that they wereinvolved in paranormal research
and psychokinesis.
They think that Russia hadheard the United States was
involved and so they startedtheir own program and then,
because of that, the US gotinvolved in it.

(19:09):
So that's like it's a littleconvoluted.
It's kind of like in the 80sArnold Schwarzenegger and
Sylvester Stallone were involvedin this big rivalry and it came
to a head when Arnold wasfloated a script to throw mama
from the train or was like throwmama from the train or don't I
can remember the title of it umschwarzenegger passed on it, but

(19:29):
they were so competitive.
Stallone had heard thatschwarzenegger was involved and
so he took it.
He jumped on it and it's likeone of the worst movies of that
decade and he only took itbecause he only took it out of
spite yep to try to beat arnoldschwarzenegger to the punch.
And I feel like that's thissituation writ large, where we
had heard that the Russians wereinvolved, but we weren't sure,

(19:51):
so we couldn't let them getinvolved in Psy research without
us also getting involved in it.
And then the Russians seeminglyresponded the same way, like
they thought we were gettinginvolved.
But it was that we had heardthey were involved, and so it
was like this do you know whatan Ouroboros is?
It's like a snake that eats itsown tail.

(20:12):
Now we've just created thiswild situation, and then I think
both programs just were like wecan't find anything conclusive
about it.

Travis (20:15):
Yeah, so in the seventies, a book titled Psychic
Discoveries Behind the IronCurtain.
It made waves in theintelligence community and it
claimed that the Soviet Unionwas investing heavily in ESP
research.

Josh (20:27):
People that are listening to the show now may not even
know what the Soviet Union is,but it was that big block of
countries that are nowindependent countries.
They were all.
They all fell under what isessentially Russian rule, so it
was operated out of the Kremlin.
But like think of anything likePakistan, kazakhstan, croatia,

(20:48):
anything in the Balkans.
Those were all part of the USSR.

Travis (20:51):
Okay, so this book claimed that the Soviet Union
was investing heavily in ESPresearch, including telepathy,
telekinesis and remote viewing,if there was even a chance that
psychic abilities could beweaponized.
The US didn't want to fallbehind, so they did it.
But it sounds like this is kindof the same story on the Soviet
Union side too.
They're like they're doing what, and I mean they're going to do

(21:14):
anything they can topotentially learn secrets.

Josh (21:18):
Yeah, wild time back then.

Travis (21:19):
Yeah.

Josh (21:19):
We didn't have the internet like we did now, so a
lot of it was passed between spynetworks, and so we're getting
this information through likephone calls and certified mail
or whatever.

Travis (21:28):
Yeah.
So all this book and this kindof back and forth of information
are they doing this or not?
It kind of kicked off whatlater people called the psychic
arms race, where Americanintelligence agencies, including
the CIA, the defenseintelligence agency and the army
, started pouring resources intotheir own investigations.

(21:48):
If there's a way to gatherintel without spies on the
ground or satellites in the sky,just by using the human mind,
it would be a game-changer.
Okay, yeah, so they saw remoteviewing as a potential tool for
surveillance, locating hostages.

Josh (22:04):
Right, and that's like the easy way out, like I don't have
to do anything, I just have tomake this guy sit in like a
sensory deprivation chamber andhe can see a cat right.

Travis (22:10):
Yeah, I used to take inventories for a job and I
always wished that I didn't haveto actually type in the numbers
.

Josh (22:18):
Yeah, like you could just like, if I could just think it
manifested into the iPad.

Travis (22:22):
Yeah, that would be phenomenal.
Yeah, cause I'm wasting so muchtime typing things.

Josh (22:27):
Well, it's just so monotonous and boring it is.

Travis (22:30):
Yeah.
So they saw remote viewing as apotential to predicting future
threats.
It was passive, non-invasiveand, compared to most
intelligence operations,remarkably inexpensive.

Josh (22:39):
Oh yeah, of course it is, because it's one person.

Travis (22:42):
Yeah, so of course it was also controversial.
Not everyone in the governmentbelieved it was real, but in the
world where military advantagecould come from the most
unexpected places, they werewilling to explore the edges of
what might be possible.

Josh (22:54):
How do you even test this?
This is where it gets like, notsci-fi, but if we have one
person giving us thatinformation, how do we know that
that person is giving usverified, true information?
We're putting a lot of pressureon them and then if they get
something wrong or they decidethey don't want to work, that
puts a lot of value on this oneperson.

(23:15):
I think it starts with simpleprediction tests, yeah, but I
mean, if you find somebody withthis ability and this is kind of
what a lot of comic books dealwith is we're talking about like
free will and this person'sability to operate on their own.
Once the government finds outthat you can do this, you're no
longer an agent of yourself.

(23:37):
Now you become an agent of thegovernment.
The government's going to swoopin and they're going to do what
they did conduct a bunch oftests to see what the limits of
this ability is, and then you'reno longer like a free citizen.
Now you are a property of theUS government or the Russian
government and you're going toget locked up.

Travis (23:54):
They're not going to let you out.
Well, I mean, we saw that withsome of the people that
projected or remote viewed intoplaces they shouldn't have, that
their lives ended shortly afteryeah, like the presidential
bathroom.

Josh (24:04):
Yeah, that was a no-no.
Yeah, it was a no-no.

Travis (24:10):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I would imagine you know they
start the tests with you know,to see if you have basic gifts
where they do what card am Iholding?

Josh (24:16):
and then it moves into what's in yeah, what's in this
envelope.

Travis (24:19):
and then, with more and more accuracy, they kind of weed
the people out and it soundslike with all the people they
tested in that one that air wastesting, that they had like a
top six that were just reallygood.
And they then did bigger andbigger and bigger tests and,
with enough information gatheredby accuracy, they ended up just

(24:40):
proving that it was real.

Josh (24:41):
But it's so unreliable and it's so it's not pointless.
But they tried to give peoplecoordinates and they struggled
with it.
It was more like I can remoteview, I'm going to just remote
view this place and somehow theyknew where it was and then they
could describe what they wereseeing.
But if you were like, tell mewhat's at these locations, they
really struggled right.

Travis (25:02):
No, they were pretty accurate.
They would give themcoordinates and nothing else,
and then they would explain whatthey saw.
And then they would find outlater that what they saw was
real, that they did see thecorrect things.
And there was that one timewhere they didn't see the
correct thing and then theyrealized that they didn't go to
the coordinate exactly.

Josh (25:20):
They went a couple miles away.
The first finding that wetalked about was free response
remote viewing, and that wasmuch more successful than forced
choice, which was picking fromset options yeah, that was early
on in the studies and then theyredid the studies and kind of
condensed it down.

Travis (25:36):
But yeah, having the guy find a location, he didn't find
the right one and they're like,oh, you didn't get it right, it
was supposed to be my cabin.
And then they find out, oh,what he did see was real.

Josh (25:47):
It was a couple miles that way and it ended up being an
NSA with a sugar grove it was afrequency free area, yeah, so
it's kind of like we have herein our state where we have these
like dark zones where no lightis allowed.
You can have street lights orhouse lights or flashlights or

(26:08):
anything like that that couldcompromise our view of the night
sky.
Oh, I didn't know that it'ssupposed to be like perfectly
dark, no light pollutionwhatsoever.
So this is very similar to thatwith Like surveillance and
radio Radio frequency, sure?

Travis (26:22):
Yeah.
So this guy astral, projectedinto an NSA black site,
basically, and read the names ofdocuments and what he was
supposed to be projecting at, orremote viewing, was just a
cabin in the woods.
But he went a little bitfurther and they said no, you're
wrong, this is not what you'resupposed to see.
And then they found out laterlike oh okay, you did go

(26:45):
somewhere and you found somestuff in the Oopsies.
The NSA sent every agency overto this testing place because
they were pissed Like why areyou guys spying on NSA shit?

Josh (26:55):
But how did they?

Travis (26:56):
know that, I don't know.
I mean, maybe they reported it.
I mean, the NSA is spying on us.

Josh (27:02):
Well, it sounded more like the way it was told in this
video was they knew it washappening, like as it was
happening, and sent somebodyover immediately.
I don't think that's reportedthe way that it actually
happened.
I think it was more like whatyou were saying they had heard
about it and they're like yougot to stop whatever it is.
You stop trying to look intowhat we're doing over here.

Travis (27:23):
Yeah, it wasn't a sequence of events.

Josh (27:24):
It was like through a period of time or they saw like
an astral projection withintheir facility or something like
that.

Travis (27:30):
Huh, that'd be interesting.
So with all this testing cameProject Stargate, and it had a
few names before, but in 1977,the Defense Intelligence Agency
and US Army created an officialunit based out of Fort Meade,
maryland, and that's where theProject Stargate was born.
The team included militarypersonnel, civilian researchers

(27:52):
and trained remote viewers.
They conducted hundreds ofexperiments and intelligence
gathering missions, some ofwhich, according to declassified
reports, had surprisinglyaccurate results.
So some of the few mostwell-documented examples are the
giant Soviet submarine.
Some of the few mostwell-documented examples are the
giant Soviet submarine, where,in 1979, joe McMoneagle
described a massive Sovietsubmarine under construction at

(28:14):
a secret shipyard in northernRussia no-transcript their spy

(28:38):
network.
Maybe this one yeah, they'regonna be, and he was seeing this
thing being built.
It wasn't done yet.

Josh (28:44):
Yeah in red october and it was the pictures they had.
They had, I mean, this isobviously a fictitious claim or
it's a movie based on a book,based on tertiary knowledge of
russian subs, u-boats but yeah,that was the.
The picture that was given inthe movie was a submarine that
was still being made interestingand then as the movie kind of

(29:08):
slowly progresses because it's aslow burn of a movie the sub is
put into the water.

Travis (29:12):
Yeah, this sounds like it.
He even talked about thechannel it was being built in.
And then months later when wasthis?
1979.
Okay, months later, good year,satellite imagery confirmed
everything he said, includingthe launch timeline.
So that's one example.
Another one is theSemipalatinsk nuclear site.
The viewer is Pat Price and hewas asked to describe a

(29:33):
suspected nuclear facility inKazakhstan and he drew a
detailed image of a massivegantry crane used at the site,
something that wasn't publiclyknown.
And when satellite photoseventually came in they matched
his sketches almost exactly.
The site was also known as thePolygon and was the primary

(29:55):
testing venue for the SovietUnion's nuclear weapons.
Another one and these are allvery well documented a hostage
location in Lebanon.
In 1988, a viewer was taskedwith locating Marine Colonel
William Higgins, who had beenkidnapped in Lebanon.
The viewer described thespecific village and even
identified the building whereHiggins, who had been kidnapped
in Lebanon.
The viewer described thespecific village and even
identified the building whereHiggins was being held.
Later another hostage confirmedthe accuracy of that location.
And then the rings of Jupiter.

(30:16):
Here's another one.
This was kind of a moreexperimental case.
Ingo Swann was asked to remoteview the planet Jupiter before
NASA's Pioneer 10 spacecraftarrived, he described rings
around the planet whichastronomers at the time thought
didn't exist.
Then, weeks later, the Pioneerconfirmed he was right.
And then the Libyan shipprediction.

(30:37):
In 1989, a viewer was asked topredict how Libya might respond
to international pressure overchemical weapons, and the viewer
named a ship Potwa or Patwe.

Josh (30:46):
What I was waiting for you to get, to the potato part.

Travis (30:53):
That would transport chemicals to an eastern Libyan
port.
A ship called Batato arrivedshortly after and did exactly
that.
How did you say it?
Boat Batato, mm-hmm.

Josh (31:09):
Potato Batato.

Travis (31:10):
Yeah either way.
But the results wereinconsistent and not everyone in
the intelligence community wasconvinced it worked.
That's the theme.
Some people were convinced,some people were not.
By the early 90s, oversight ofthe project Project Stargate had
bounced between agencies, withincreasing skepticism about its
value.
In 1995, the CIA commissionedan official review to decide

(31:31):
whether the program shouldcontinue, and that review
concluded that the remoteviewing hadn't produced enough
reliable intelligence and theprogram was shut down later that
year.

Josh (31:41):
Hmm, it's a big harumph there.
What's that?
What's that about?

Travis (31:44):
Well, I'm just saying it may not have shut down.
People were talking about itand since it was something that
could be trained, there wasprodigies.
I mean, I can learn music, Ican learn sports.
I'm not going to be good atthem necessarily.

Josh (31:57):
Oh, come on, give yourself more credit.

Travis (31:59):
But if basically anyone could learn the fundamentals of
doing this, I don't know howlong it would take to learn that
.
That would mean that the USwould not be able to keep
secrets from the public.
So it seems as though that theyshut it down because it worked
really well and they didn't wantthe testing and the knowledge
of that to be sent out into theworld.
I've always grown up thinkingthat all this stuff is kind of

(32:22):
fake Mediums and psychic readers, readers that it was just fake
con artists yes, I 100 believethat.

Josh (32:30):
I mean we saw that with miss cleo right through the 90s.

Travis (32:34):
She was this famous in air quotes, psychic yeah, I
called and did you really oncewith a friend and we charged up
quite a bill.
We weren't on very long either,it was.

Josh (32:45):
Oh no, I mean, she made a killing off of that because
phone charges were especiallylike long, long distance back
then was um, anyway, yeah, um,proven to be a fraud.
So, yeah, we definitely grew upwith that.
But I was also like and I'mspeaking about myself personally
uh, you know, grew up readingcomics and being a big fan of
comic book uh, characters.

(33:05):
I always wanted this to be thecase and I always believed in,
like x-men being the next levelof human evolution and I just I
believed it.
I just I hoped, I wished youknow, like, like all kids that
are dorky, little nerd kids,they want, like, puberty to hit
and suddenly you become thisgreat, cool thing well, it never
happened.
I'm still some this dorky littlekid and a grown man's dumb body

(33:28):
, but I I I still think this islike it's cool, because there's
so much about the human mindthat we don't understand and
there's so much about peoplethat we don't understand that
this could very well be the case.
I don't think the way it'sbeing reported is probably
accurate and I don't think thegovernment, especially the
military, should be the onesrunning this test.

(33:50):
It's like that, saying, if youhave a hammer, you're going to
look at all of your solutionslike a nail right, and if you
put it in the hands of a weaponor somebody who wants to
weaponize this skill or thisgift, they're going to do that
right.
They're going.
Or this gift, they're going todo that?
Yeah Right, they're going tomake it.
They're going to weaponize itin some way instead of using it
to make or help make humanitybetter or progress through

(34:13):
whatever evolution.

Travis (34:14):
It kind of makes me think, just because you and I
had similar experiences, I thinka lot of people have the same
thought that it was.
It's fake, it's a hoax, allthis stuff, that maybe
potentially this works so welland that humans are capable of
this.
But there was similar thatwe've seen with the alien
community and UFOs, that therehas been a lot of disinformation
and we have documentation andproof that high ranking military

(34:37):
officers have been purposelyconfusing and lying about the
stuff to make people who believecrazy.

Josh (34:43):
Oh, so you think they're gaslighting everybody?

Travis (34:46):
well, what if they did a disinformation thing and they
were trying to make psychicslook crazy?
Where they?
They put out psychics out thereto make it look fake so you
think miss cleo was a governmenta?
Deep.
It's possible agent?
I don't think so, I meananything's possible maybe not
her, but maybe there was others.
I don't think so I just that.

Josh (35:04):
I that seems, that seems like a wild accusation.
Then then, what's true and whatisn't true?

Travis (35:10):
Well it's wild that they did it with the UFOs and aliens
.
I mean the government did thatand they purposely put out
information, then went back,purposely got caught then said
sorry, we were faking it.
I mean they're just creatingconfusion no-transcript.

Josh (35:50):
A very disappointing realization as a kid, like when
you're just like I'm notactually channeling or funneling
dark arts or whatever, yeah,through the earth.
I'm, you know, with the rightincantation I can summon
something or levitate or walk onthe wall or whatever, turn
water into gold, like the bestyou can do is get sunglasses

(36:10):
that have like a reflectivepaint on it so it looks you can
kind of see who's behind you, orwhatever.
That's like the best you canget with magic.
So I just remember that beingreally disappointing.

Travis (36:20):
Like that peek behind the curtain maybe, like you said
, we don't know much about thehuman brain and our body and
what we can truly do.

Josh (36:28):
But I'm not as cynical as you are, though, when you're
saying, like the governmentgaslit people.
I don't believe that that's thecase.
And just saying that that isthe case because it happened
with aliens and I'm not familiarwith this instance where the
government gaslit people aboutaliens other than, like you know
, one or two people saying it Idon't believe that that's the

(36:50):
case with psychics or withanything, because if you start
going down that hole, then youbecome a very untrusting person,
and you, I mean you start tolike not even trust humanity any
longer.

Travis (37:01):
Yeah, and I'm not saying it's the case, I was just
saying, like a what if?
Like it was just a theory.
Ok, you know, I mean it ispossible, especially with
government.
I mean, if the government isrunning shit like this, who
knows what they're doing?

Josh (37:12):
Yeah Well, this isn't the government, this is military run
and I do not trust the militarybut the government gave them
funding and allocated stuff likethat.
So I mean we talked about thislike congressional hearings that
we just heard.
The government doesn't knowwhat the fuck the military is
doing.
No, it's weird, and they'relike you need to tell us this is
mismanagement.
This is like you need to betelling us what's going on and
the military is just like Idon't know.

(37:33):
Oopsies, we already spent abillion dollars.
Can we have another billionplease?

Travis (37:37):
Yeah, but we can't tell you.

Josh (37:38):
We can't tell love it.
It's about hot pockets.
We're gonna try to make themnot so hot.
The heat's gonna be equal.
Yeah, it'll be equallydistributed.
When you bite into it, it's notgonna burn your mouth and also
freeze it so you were talkingabout that.

Travis (37:54):
It was in the wrong hands with the military, so the
military.
They had a quiet unit, basicallya side project that wasn't
talked about.
So stargate was reallyprominent and that got all the
attention.
That wasn't talked about.
So Stargate was reallyprominent and that got all the
attention.
It wasn't the US military'sonly remote viewing effort.
So around the same time anotherprogram was quietly operating
out of the Army Intelligence andthe Security Command of INSCOM

(38:18):
and it was known as Project 8200.
So when Stargate focusedheavily on research, training
and experimentation, 8200 had amuch direct purpose Operational
intelligence gathering.
These were real missions run bytrained military personnel, not
civilian psychics or universityresearchers.
So Project 8200 began in theearly 1980s and remained 1982.

(38:42):
Yes, kind of lines up with their.
I know that's the military?

Josh (38:46):
Yeah, it of lines up with their.
I know that's the military yeah.

Travis (38:48):
It remained classified for many years.
Its goal was to apply remoteviewing techniques to actual
intelligence targets Things likeforeign weapons facilities,
espionage threats and missingpersonnel.
And the viewers involved.
They were military trainedoperatives, not recruited
psychics.
In many ways, 8200 acted as asister unit to Stargate.
Both shared information andpersonnel over time.

(39:10):
But 8200 kept a lower profileand operated with a more
tactical mindset.
The work was overseen by highranking officers, including
Major General Albert Stubblebine, a major supporter of the
psychic intelligence, whofamously believed soldiers could
walk through walls yep.

Josh (39:28):
So in the movie this is not a spoiler for the men who
stare it goes.
But it starts with steven lang.
After there's like, uh, they'relike this is documented, or
whatever.
You know that that bit of textthat shows up in a lot of movies
based on real events orwhatever.
It's basically that same thingwith a little more depth.
And then it opens up on StephenLang's eyes as he's just
staring and he's like all sweaty.

(39:49):
He has an assistant that'ssitting in the room with him and
he said, corporal, I'm going togo into the next room.
And then he's still focused onthe wall.
He gets up from behind his desk, still looking at the wall, and
then just runs as hard as hecan and crashes into the wall.

Travis (40:07):
And wall and then just runs as hard as he can and
crashes into the wall and it'sso funny and you know there is
video of real tests of peopledoing I would love to see that.

Josh (40:13):
I know they're great they're.
I'm sure that there is, oh,absolutely, but I don't know
that it exists anymore.
I'm sure that there was.
I'm.
I bet a lot of that stuff gotdeleted or thrown in the trash
probably maybe there's somethingout there that that would be
hilarious to see oh that'd be sogood.
It would be hilarious, but thenalso kind of sad.

Travis (40:28):
If it was declassified.
And that's what we got.
Yeah, there's a bunch of peoplerunning through walls and
staring at goats.

Josh (40:35):
I can get that on Instagram.
I can see people running intowalls.
The sad part of that is thatthey'd either told this person
that they could pass through awall or this person believed it
so strongly and got up and triedit and then, just I bet a lot
of noses were broken oh,absolutely yeah, and then you
get a lot of cowards that justlike didn't believe hard enough.

Travis (40:55):
Right at the wall, right at the yeah like nope.

Josh (40:57):
But if you commit to the bit, maybe it would have
happened yeah, maybe no onebelieved enough they didn't
believe enough.
Yeah, yeah, that's what theysay about airplanes.
Like that's how they fly, youstart to believe really strong
and then, when it starts to land, the pilot just believes a
little less.

Travis (41:10):
Interesting.

Josh (41:12):
See Science man, the mind is crazy.

Travis (41:14):
Yeah, so one of these astral projections, one of these
remote viewing sessions throughproject 8200 is probably one of
the strangest ones and mosttalked about is the mars session
.
Oh my god.
Okay, it didn't involve soviets, submarines or nuclear sites,

(41:36):
it wasn't.
I mean, really, it's kind ofweird it doesn't have to yeah,
there was no.

Josh (41:41):
From my understanding, there's no reason no, this was
just like them doing an exercise, just like stretching or
whatever.

Travis (41:48):
They're just testing it's just part of like the the
testing yeah, so a declassifiedca document and I can link that
in the show notes as well.
Yeah, reports that on may 22nd1984 a sealed envelope with a
secret target was handed toremote viewer John McMonagle or
Joe McMonagle.
Mcmonagle was instructed todescribe what he saw at the time

(42:10):
and place using standard remoteviewing protocol.

Josh (42:13):
Okay, I'm going to jump.
Actually, I'll let you finishthis before I jump in, because I
do want to talk about this.

Travis (42:19):
She just has images of the actual text and dialogue.
Yeah, and I don't think I'mgoing to read that.

Josh (42:25):
read that, okay we can sum it up so that's like the
proctor saying the ones whosleep through the storm.
So because he had describedseeing something like people
that were like basicallyemaciated and sheltered and they
were looking for a way out, andhe said it was like a desolate
area, basically describing theplanet Mars, I guess, or just

(42:49):
any desert.
But here's the kicker it wasover a million years ago.

Travis (42:54):
Yeah, he traversed time in space.

Josh (42:57):
It wasn't just space, it wasn't just space like, not just
space here down on earth, butspace in space, outer space,
which is wild.
So the question I have is theysaid they performed like
thousands and thousands andthousands of tests.
Was this in that same timeframe?
And, if so, how many closed endfloats were put on a table?

(43:18):
And he guessed wrong and thenhe got this one right.
And so people are just likelike that meme we were talking
about earlier of that cool guyjust very proud of himself for
doing this one cool thing.
And so people are just likelike that meme we were talking
about earlier of that cool guyjust very proud of himself for
doing this one cool thing.
And so now they're like well,see, that proves it, because he
astral projected to a planet amillion years in our past.
Right, like how many tests weredone before this one before,

(43:40):
like closed envelope tests, andhow many after, and how many of
those were wrong?

Travis (43:44):
and yeah, we don't.

Josh (43:45):
We don't know the accuracy this one just line up, and then
that's why they're like see, itworks, kind of, because we did
three tests and he passed one.
So that's like a 33 chancethat's better than an f.
I mean, it's not a better thanf, that's enough I'll get to
that.

Travis (44:00):
So he described on mars tall and ancient well, we didn't
know.

Josh (44:05):
Ancient, he just said, like tall emaciated, there was a
storm happening and they weresupposedly sleeping through it,
and they asked to tell us moreabout those who sleep through
the storms.

Travis (44:15):
Yeah, he said basically large, thin beings.
I think he said like 12 feettall and they're sleeping in
massive pyramid-like shelters.
Because they were experiencingan environmental catastrophe,
because their planet was dying,dust storms were raging, the
atmosphere was failing because acomet busted through the
atmosphere and basically justpopped the atmosphere like the

(44:35):
tail of a comet no, they saidthey that they were living in
the tail of a comet is how itwas described, I believe okay
but that is just like that'slanguage that person used.

Josh (44:44):
That doesn't necessarily mean that they were actually
living through a comet,necessarily.
It's just like, if this is trueand information is being
communicated to him, as he'sastral traveling and he's just
like a guy, you know, who canallegedly do this thing, he's
going to describe things, andwe've talked about this on the
show before.
He's going to describe thingsas best as he can.
Yeah, and so if they'recommunicating to him through and

(45:04):
this is another thing they werespeaking English.
Did he communicate with them?
They said tell us about theones who sleep, and they said
they were waiting for people tocome back to save them.

Travis (45:13):
So basically, these people were sleeping.
They had a search party to besent out to find another planet
to live on, but time was runningout for those left behind.

Josh (45:22):
Yeah, so how was this communicated?
Was this like a consciousnessthing, like brain to brain,
where they're just like able toproject feelings and emotion?

Travis (45:31):
It possibly, or was it?

Josh (45:32):
like I mean.
Then that's where it getsridiculous.
Is that's not?
That's not talked about Likeokay, so they talked to him in
English.

Travis (45:38):
And that's what's hard about all this is because we
don't know, like how do theyfind those coordinates?

Josh (45:44):
You can't verify it.
It's supposedly Mars a millionyears ago.
Like we can't verify that, thatexists, that civilization
exists.
There's no proof.

Travis (45:52):
So McGonagall McMonagall was then instructed by the
Monitor.

Josh (45:59):
Wouldn't you love Professor McMonagall out?

Travis (46:01):
there casting magic man.

Josh (46:03):
Oh, that's great.

Travis (46:05):
McMonagall was then instructed by the monitor to
find out where the search partyhad traveled to and when the
session was over, joe mcgonigalhe mentioned that they came to
earth, they found earth and inthe declassified ca document you
can see the whole conversationthat we'll have posted in the
show notes.
When the session was completelyover, joe finally opened the

(46:25):
sealed envelope and it was athree by five card with the
following information.
It said the planet Mars.
Time of interest approximately1 million years BC.
So I don't know how it worksand I think that's why they
scrubbed this whole project isbecause more and more people
would know how this works.
Like we heard that he'sbasically in a chamber when

(46:46):
these projections, these remoteviewings, are happening.

Josh (46:49):
But if this was like a million BC right, supposedly and
things were always evolving, wecan't stop it.
Like evolution, there's nostopping it.
Why do things suck so bad?
Right now?
We're driving shitty cars thatare reliant on fuel.
That is killing our planet.
They had the ability to travelfrom one planet to another
safely greed, no, but.

(47:10):
But I mean, that's a millionplus years ago.
Like we should be at leasttraveling to other planets by
now if they had that ability.
You think they just came hereand they're just like fucking
easy life and we don't have todo shit anymore.
Look at all this vegetate ohshit, is that a dinosaur?
Oh my god.
Ah, yeah, I easy life, we don'thave to do shit anymore.
Look at all this vegetation ohshit, is that a dinosaur, oh my
God.

Travis (47:28):
Yeah, I'm not sure.
I don't know the answer to that.

Josh (47:30):
Why not, Josh?
I'm coming to you for thisinformation.
Why don't you have this answer?
I?

Travis (47:34):
just think that maybe they use technology, that it's
like that Futurama episode whenthey were leaving Mars.

Josh (47:40):
Did you?
I love that you're going toback up my sincere question with
a Futurama episode.

Travis (47:46):
They used.
The ancient aboriginal peopleof Mars had a connection with
the wild bungalow, which waslike the cow of Mars, like it
was their sacred animal, andthey used that relationship to
power an ancient spacecraft totravel to another planet because

(48:07):
Mars was being destroyed.
And maybe they had some othertechnology or maybe they could
tap into the 100% of their mindand be able to control something
without the technology orancient devices that didn't use
electricity, that it used mindpower.
You know, I don't know.
I mean this is already showingthat potentially, our minds are

(48:27):
much more powerful than werealize, which is completely
plausible.
I was thinking too about thesemediums when you were talking
about how are they communicating?
Maybe some of these mediums intoday's age where they think
they're talking to the deceased,maybe they're not actually
talking to the deceased.
Maybe they are remote viewinginto and not realizing it.
Maybe they think they are, butthey're not actually talking to
the deceased.
Maybe they are remote viewinginto and not realizing it.

(48:48):
Maybe they think they are, butthey're remote viewing into this
person's mind and seeing whatthis person needs, because they
talk about memories of thatperson, not memories.

Josh (48:58):
Well, that's all part of what these mediums do.
It's like you read a crowd.
It has nothing to do withastral projection or anything
like that.
It's just like having anunderstanding, like you said,
what a person needs, whatthey're looking for.
So they just throw this randomstuff out and I forget they have
a term for it even.
But they'll throw out thisrandom information to a big
group of people, knowing it'sgoing to land with somebody, and

(49:19):
then they can get a little morespecific.
But it's usually like Igeneralize, get specifics from
the person in the audience, thenI use that to make another
generalization that gets themmore specific.

Travis (49:34):
So they're giving more information than you are asking
of them, yeah, and that I meancold read or something like that
.
I think there's a lot of conartists out there like big time.
I mean they've gone as far aswith live shows.
They've done background checkson every single person, and the
so-called medium of the showalready knows everything that
they're going to talk aboutbefore I mean they've gone crazy
with it.
But I do believe that there aregifted people, and so does the

(49:55):
military and the CIA enough tospend a ridiculous amount of
money funding projects fordecades.
So if there is something there,then maybe we use that to leave
mars maybe, maybe I don't know.

Josh (50:10):
I mean if, if that technology existed and they were
, they had a search party here.
Did that?
That's what I'm asking it'slike.
Did something happen then tothat search party, that party
that was sent to save thespecies?
And then that's how, or why, wehave pyramids here or whatever,
because they say that there arepyramids on mars or whatever,
but we're not really seeing thatthey sent a bunch of dummies
down here that didn't know howto create whatever it is

(50:32):
technology that they had, and sonow we're just like, uh well,
fuck the pyramids on mars dolook similar to a lot of the
pyramids that we found on earthbefore excavation, which is
bizarre.

Travis (50:45):
And maybe yeah, I mean, if some of the earlier people in
our earth life were influencedby storytelling and lore and
they just kind of carried onthat same construction habit,
it's very possible um, I meanokay, but like we don't have any
evidence of these tall beingshere, all early human
civilization, we're actuallygetting bigger now we are but

(51:08):
there have been there's lore andmyth of potential giant rays I
mean, that's like unicorns.

Josh (51:14):
We have stories of unicorns and manticores and
dragons and things like that aswell, but we don't have evidence
that they existed, just likegiant people.
There are anecdotal evidencepointing to some giants, like
Robert Ludlow, who is like ninefeet tall tallest person ever
but it's not like a hugecommunity of giants.

Travis (51:33):
Yeah, and it's also.
I mean, context is important.
You know, if we were very, verysmall back then, a person that
was seven feet would be a giant.

Josh (51:41):
Sure, what I'm saying is we don't have communities of
them Historically.

Travis (51:50):
There's not a group of giant people that we have like a
giant person in a community,but not an entire community of
giant people, yeah, so one lastthing I want to talk about and
it's not in our dossier is thealien bases that were found
during remote viewing.
I think that's a fascinatingstory.
We watched that on the Y-Filesabout the remote viewing and
basically some of these toppeople that we've talked about
were able to remote view into amountain in Alaska and they all

(52:14):
went without any information andthey all saw the same thing and
it was bases that were builtinto the mountain that were much
higher tech than we had at thetime.

Josh (52:23):
That was Mount Haze in Alaska.
Right that kept coming out.

Travis (52:26):
Yeah, and it was ran by human-like beings, but with
bigger heads and bigger eyes,and each person kind of
described not all of them saw,because it sounds like these
bases weren't occupied all thetime.

Josh (52:39):
This was found by Pat Price.
I think that was that his name.

Travis (52:42):
He's the one that accidentally found this place
and was killed shortly after,and he saw that beings there,
but he also saw humans, militaryearthlings working alongside
these potential aliens andthroughout the years they did
more remote viewings with thislocation, which is creepy.
I think like if humans havebeen working with the aliens.

Josh (53:03):
But I mean, this is a testable thing.
We can go to Mount Haze and,like, dig around in there and
find out if this is true.

Travis (53:10):
Right, this is uh yeah, and some of the other remote
viewers found other locations.

Josh (53:14):
This is provable, so why why?
Not just go look, why not justgo look?
And don't say, and this is likewe know where Mount Hayes is.

Travis (53:24):
We know the exact point.
We know the exact point.
We know the exact point.

Josh (53:27):
It's very remote, so this is not something the government
can hide right.
We don't have a government basekeeping people from Mount Hayes
, because that would throw up alot of questions.

Travis (53:36):
I mean there's crazy.
I mean in the Grand Canyonthere is a base inside the Grand
Canyon in the wall, and youcan't get near it at all.
People have tried flying dronestowards it and the drones air
out and return home so it's cutoff from everything.
If I was walking through and Itried to go there, you can't
even get close enough to getthere.

(53:57):
There's just probably no way ofgetting there.

Josh (53:59):
Okay, well, I mean just our little bit of research.

Travis (54:02):
Nobody had gone to try to check out this place in
Alaska, yeah, and there'sblackout zones on like Google
Maps and stuff like that.
I'm sure this isn't blacked outbecause there's nothing to see.
It's inside the mountain.
They found other ones, someunderwater, some in other
mountains around the world, yeah.

Josh (54:17):
Which raises a question like how if it's underwater and
I know there's a way to turnlike water into oxygen but if we
have people down there, how arethey breathing?

Travis (54:26):
They didn't talk about those ones being manned by
humans.

Josh (54:30):
But I mean, from what we understand from just basic
physiology, you need to haveoxygen to live on this planet.
So I don't know, maybe theydon't breathe.
I mean, this is again a veryfundamental understanding of how
we work here.
It doesn't mean that that's howthey work on another planet,
right?
Yeah maybe they don't need it.

Travis (54:48):
Maybe they can get everything they need from
absorbing it through their skin,kind of like a frog maybe, and
so basically there's all thesedifferent locations of these
extraterrestrial bases, whichthese people didn't really call
them extraterrestrial, they werejust doing their job.
They were told to observesomething and they came back and
we've kind of concluded withthe beings and the different

(55:11):
technology there that it isextraterrestrial, that they are
spread around the whole worldand they're all connected and it
seems as though they'reharvesting or gathering
something and sending it off,because another remote viewer
was able to view where they weresending it or what was
receiving, whatever they werecollecting, and he described
that as an unmanned vessel,fully automated.

(55:33):
It just makes me wonder whatthey're collecting.
And in one of the guy'sstatements he had a conversation
so this is another thing likehow are they able to communicate
?
He had a conversation with analien saying what do you think
about humans?

Josh (55:48):
and they said not much not much, but again like how is
this communicated was?
It done in english like that is.
It's just so wild, and I guess,if this group of
extraterrestrials had decided totake up residence here, maybe
they learn the language.
But like we don't communicatewith dolphins, or if they look
at us like animals, we don'tcommunicate with birds in that
way.

Travis (56:07):
Well, so that's what he meant is by saying not much is
that there's some aliens thatare on Earth are interested
scientifically in humans, butmost of them view us as animals,
as a flock of birds or fish inthe sea.
You know we're more intelligent, but that just definitely made
me think.
You know, they're here justletting us do our thing.

(56:28):
They're here for the earth.
They don't really care about usthat much.
They don't want us to hurt theearth, but they don't care if we
hurt each other.

Josh (56:35):
But that's what we're doing right now.

Travis (56:36):
I mean we're doing all of it.

Josh (56:38):
Yeah, we're doing everything.
All of the bad, all of the bad,hurt things yeah.

Travis (56:42):
Yeah, I just I thought that was interesting, especially
sticking to the aliens theme ofour show.

Josh (56:47):
I mean, I guess it would be the same if a dolphin asked
us like what do you think ofdolphins?
We'd be like I don't know man,like I heard you guys fuck a lot
.

Travis (56:54):
Yeah, not much.

Josh (56:55):
Yeah, I can't go in the water when you guys are all hot
and bothered because that turnsout bad.

Travis (56:59):
Yeah, and I heard that AI is working on learning animal
language, that, and I heardthat AI is working on learning
animal language.
That'd be cool.
That would be cool If thesealiens have higher tech, or
maybe they communicate in thesame way that the people using
the remote viewing are able tocommunicate.
Maybe they can tap into that, Idon't know.
But overall, in conclusion, formore than two decades, the US

(57:21):
government poured time, moneyand classified resources into
exploring a question that stilldivides people today Can the
human mind access informationbeyond space and time?

Josh (57:30):
Are you asking me?

Travis (57:31):
No, who are you?

Josh (57:33):
asking.
You asked the question.

Travis (57:35):
I'm telling you that is the question that is dividing
people, but you're not asking methat.
I'm not asking you.
Okay, I already know youbelieve Project Stargate may
have ended in 1995, but thequestion-.

Josh (57:44):
Nice, you just threw that in there.

Travis (57:46):
It raised never really went away.
So where I stand on this, onthe yes, no, maybe is yes.
I think that our minds arecapable of this.
I think that the military knewI mean, I've kind of just
sprinkled my thoughts throughoutall of this I think the
military knew that this worked.
I think they shut it downbecause it worked so well that
they didn't want it to get out,and I think it is potentially

(58:10):
going to be a lost art, exceptfor these black site operations
where they're able to stillutilize that today in the world.
That's what I think okay.

Josh (58:19):
So under the parameters of our show, where it's yes, no,
maybe aliens no, because we'renot talking about aliens here.
So as far as that goes, no,this doesn't push the needle for
me into believing whether ornot aliens do exist.
Yes, um, but I I will echo whatyou had said.
Like I, I think that there's alot that humans are capable of.
I am a humanist to the bone andI want to believe there are

(58:41):
incredible things that we can do, and I know that there's
incredible things that we can do.
I mean, that's the just like anadrenaline.
Well, just I mean, what is sofascinating about the olympics,
right like we're watching,incredible human beings do
incredible things and gettingbetter every year and getting
better and faster every year.
Yeah, so there are.
There are things that the humanbody and human mind can do, and

(59:01):
we're just it's not fullytapped yeah, most everything is
not fully tapped right becausethere's not funding for it.
So yes, maybe no.
Do I believe in humans?

Travis (59:09):
100 yes you believe humans are real I believe humans
are real.

Josh (59:12):
Yes, I know, that's a hot take.

Travis (59:13):
Well, I you believe humans are real.

Josh (59:13):
I believe humans are real.
Yes, I know that's a hot take,but I do believe humans are real
and I believe in them.
I believe in us.
I believe in us humans.
Come on, humans, just be better.

Travis (59:21):
Yeah, humans are what divide us.

Josh (59:24):
Yeah, we're all getting in our own way, but come on, we
can.
Let's be better.
Be better humans.

Travis (59:29):
So I want to invite you all to click on the links that
we're providing some of thedocuments and some of the
release CIA stuff.
Do your own research there's awhole bunch of more information
on this and let us know what youthink.
Spread the word, tell peopleabout us.
You can get ahold of us withfan mail Pretty easy.
Click the fan mail link in theshow notes and you can just

(59:51):
message us right from your phoneand we will get it on our phone
just like a text.
I think that's it.
There's nothing more for thisshow.

Josh (59:58):
Is it over?
Is this the end?

Travis (01:00:00):
Yeah, we have nothing more.

Josh (01:00:01):
Series finale.

Travis (01:00:02):
No, we have a quiz.

Josh (01:00:05):
Oh, we do have a quiz, don't we?
Yeah, we have a quiz.

Travis (01:00:07):
I don't know, so we're going to do a quiz on the next
week's topic.
I don't know what it is, wehaven't looked as we do.
Okay, the baseline quiz, I know, is the flatwoods monster.
I have no idea what this is.
Are we getting into cryptids?

Josh (01:00:26):
I hope so.
I love, I love a good cryptidtale.
Okay, and some cryptids havetails lucky.

Travis (01:00:31):
Yeah, good old, lucky okay.

Josh (01:00:32):
So I don't know, huh Huh Locky, yeah, little Locky.

Travis (01:00:36):
Okay, so I don't know anything about this.
Never heard of it.
Flatwoods monster.
We have a handful of questionsand we'll try to figure out
what's going on as we answerthese, but this is what we're
going to talk about next week.
Yeah, so in what state did thereported sighting of the
Flatwoods monster take place?
Is it A Oklahoma, b Montana, cWest Virginia or D Oregon?

(01:00:59):
This sounds like a fucking WestVirginia.
I was totally going to say thatthis sounds like a fucking West
.

Josh (01:01:05):
Virginia.
Thing.

Travis (01:01:06):
I know, I think there's one of those triangles like the
Alaskan Triangle, bermudaTriangle, I think there's one in
that area.
Okay, so I'm going to say WestVirginia, yeah, okay.
Next question and what year wasthe monster reportedly seen?
This is a cryptid man, Okay, a,1936, b, 1952, c, 1978 or D,

(01:01:27):
2003.

Josh (01:01:28):
I'm going to say 1936.

Travis (01:01:30):
I'm going to say 52.

Josh (01:01:36):
That was my runner up choice.
Okay, I'm going 36'm going 36.
It just I don't know.
There's something about the waythis is starting to take frame
in in my head.
Is that it's just like amonster that like plays music on
a milk jug and a washboard I'mcurious to see what it looks
like.

Travis (01:01:50):
Yeah, okay.
So next question who initiallycame upon the flatwoods monster?
A a troop of boy scouts on acamping trip.
B a church youth group andpastor.
C a softball team coming homefrom the game or d a mother with
a group of local kids?

Josh (01:02:07):
I've read that really quick and I thought it said a
monster with a group of another,another monster, that's it like
yeah, real recognize, realmonster is gonna recognize
another monster.
Go ahead, josh, you answer.
You answer yours first and I'lltell you mine, because I went
first last time I'm gonna say asoftball team coming home from a
game.
Okay, I don't know why thatjust rings a bell I'm gonna say

(01:02:28):
an intrepid troop of boy scoutson a camping trip.
Those guys are always up tosomething they are.

Travis (01:02:33):
What's going on over?

Josh (01:02:33):
What's going on with those scouts?

Travis (01:02:35):
Yeah, why are you doing stuff all the time?
Okay, so next question how isthe monster described?
A, 10 feet tall, with glowingeyes and a spade shaped head.
B, seven feet long, with mattedfur and six legs oh my God.
C three feet tall, with ascrunched up face and long arms.
Or D eight feet tall, withscaly skin and large orange

(01:02:59):
wings.

Josh (01:03:00):
I'm going to say, just having you read those
descriptions, they're all veryupsetting.
Picturing those if seeing thisout in the woods.

Travis (01:03:06):
None of those should exist.

Josh (01:03:07):
No, no, and I probably wouldn't either, after having
seen them, I would die of aheart attack Poop your entire
insides out.
Yeah yeah, my insides would bean Audi.

Travis (01:03:16):
Yep, what do you think?
I'm going to say I don't likethe six legs.

Josh (01:03:22):
I don't like anything with more legs than it should have.
Yeah, and like matted fursounds awful.
Like what's matting your fur,is it blood?
Orange wings, blood?

Travis (01:03:35):
orange wings also.
I don't like anything thatflies I hear spiders are
evolving to fly.

Josh (01:03:37):
I've heard that too I don't like hate it.
Uh, I'm gonna say the cutestone, the three foot tall with a
scrunched up face and long arms,even though the long arms are
really upsetting, like I'mpicturing like a tall furby that
is able to reach me across theroom.
I don't like that, but I feellike I can swat some arms away
better than I can something thathas six legs, a swap fight,
just like.

Travis (01:03:58):
Get away from me.
No, I'm just slapping yeah, orjust slapping me, yeah, yeah I
am gonna say a 10 feet tall withglowing eyes and spade shaped
head.
I don't like the spade shapeeither.
It's gross, no like a shovelyeah, okay, next one.
What accompanied the sightingof the flatwoods monster?

(01:04:19):
A high-pitched ringing in theears, b nauseating, pungent mist
, c telepathic message of peace,or d a sudden massive
thunderstorm jeez I mean, Ithink we talked about, uh,
telepathic message of peace.

Josh (01:04:33):
I don't know if it was on the Betty and Barney Hill.

Travis (01:04:35):
That was the aerial school.

Josh (01:04:37):
Okay, I knew that one of them had that.
I'm not going to associate thatwith this tiny little monster.
I'm going to say nauseating,pungent mist.

Travis (01:04:46):
I am too, because in the cryptids I've learned about how
terrible they smell.
Yeah, that is a pretty commontheme, okay, how terrible they
smell, yeah, that is a prettycommon theme, okay.
Last question what did the airforce suggest?
The creature was oh shit.

Josh (01:05:01):
Okay, so the military is involved military is involved,
but like this, is going to throwout your descriptions oh geez,
because none of these line upwith what you said okay, so a a
mountain.

Travis (01:05:12):
B, a prank by teenagers, uh-huh.
C, a wild hen which is a bird.
Yeah, or D an owl.

Josh (01:05:21):
Which is also a bird, a little bird.
Yeah, I'm going to say an owl,because that kind of lines up,
Because owls have a pretty largewingspan.

Travis (01:05:28):
Yeah, they do Long arms.
They can be three feet Uh-huh,and they kind of they have a
scrunched up face.
They have a scrunched up face.
It's a flat face.
Yeah, oh man, I'm going to saymountain lion.
Okay, all right, we're going tosubmit these answers.
View accuracy.
Okay, west Virginia, right outof the gate.
West Virginia.
Yeah, in what state did areported take place?

(01:05:50):
West virginia?
In what year was the monsterreportedly?

Josh (01:05:53):
seen?
Uh, here we go, classic travis.
This is where it goes downhill.

Travis (01:05:56):
For me it was 1952 yeah, he said 36 yeah, who initially
came upon the flatwood monsters?

Josh (01:06:03):
I said a softball team and you said the boy scouts I said
a boy scout it was a mother witha group of local kids I should
have stuck to my gut when Ithought it was monster.
Yeah well, josh, here we go.

Travis (01:06:15):
You were right.
How is the monster described?
10 feet tall, with glowing eyesand a spade shaped head?

Josh (01:06:21):
Got that one wrong.
Yeah, classic Travis.
I said three feet tall with ascrunched up face.
Yeah, yeah.

Travis (01:06:28):
So the next one what accompanied the sighting of the
Flatwoods monster?
I said a nauseating pungentmist.
You said A nauseating pungentmist.
And that is correct, because itseems like they're just all
that way, All the cryptids.
And then, lastly, what did theAir Force suggest the creature
was?
I said a mountain lion.
I said an owl, you said an owl.

Josh (01:06:49):
Lining up with my previous description, little guy, which
is wrong.
How many owls do you know thatare 10 feet tall?
Because that's the correctanswer.

Travis (01:06:58):
Yes, the Air Force said an owl.

Josh (01:06:59):
How do you pass off an owl as being a 10 foot tall monster
, which is what was reported?

Travis (01:07:04):
I have no idea, I am very interested in this.

Josh (01:07:07):
I guess, if it's in a tree , yeah, a shadow, maybe the sun
was setting and the lightbounced off the owl's eyes and
it said and that scared the shitout of them and they looked up
and they do kind of have a spade.
Yeah, I mean.
Well, I mean it depends on theowl, but I wouldn't say spade,
Like a Batman shape head is anowl.

Travis (01:07:25):
So I guess we're veering off aliens again a little bit.
That's fine.
Yeah, cryptids.
So the next episode will be acryptid.
I'm pretty excited about that.
I wasn't expecting to do acryptid, but hey, I'm all game.

Josh (01:07:38):
Yeah, this is fun.
I like cryptids.
I think they're a lot of fun.

Travis (01:07:40):
Yeah Well, thank you for listening.
I hope you listen to the nextepisode.
It'll be a good one.
Yeah, who do we thank?
And we want to thank our?
We'll do this without her.

Josh (01:07:51):
Our everything.

Travis (01:07:52):
She picks the episodes, she writes the quizzes, she
gives us all of our notes.
She does the music.

Josh (01:07:58):
She's a ventriloquist.
She's actually doing all of thetalking for us right now.

Travis (01:08:02):
Yeah Tells us what to research, yep.
So yeah, big shout out to her.
We wouldn't be able to do thiswithout her.
Yeah, living in her house.
Yeah, now, eating her food,breathing her air, Raising her
children Peeing in her potty.
Well, thank you for listeningand we'll catch you next time.
Okay, bye, bye.