May 23, 2025 • 44 mins
Did thousands of people across Arizona witness the same massive, silent, V-shaped craft in the clear night sky of 1997? What happens when the government can't explain what everyone saw? This week, Travis and Josh delve into the baffling Phoenix Lights incident, a mass UAP sighting event that baffled witnesses, including a former governor and even actor Kurt Russell.
Twenty-five years later, the Phoenix Lights remain an unsolved mystery that challenges our understanding of what moves through our skies. Was it experimental military technology, something truly extraterrestrial, or an explanation we haven't yet considered? Whatever crossed Arizona that night, it left thousands looking up with new questions about what might exist beyond our everyday reality.
Have you ever seen something in the sky you couldn't explain? Share your experience in the comments or let us know your thoughts on the Phoenix Lights!
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Josh (00:03):
aliens aliens yes but maybe no.
Travis (00:19):
All right, hey guys, welcome back.
This is the show aliens, yes,but maybe no, with josh and
travis.
I'm travis and I'm josh.
This is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title.
I felt like I wanted to recordthat differently.
I don't know, that's not okay.
That's not like, uh, the way wenormally start this yeah, it
(00:40):
sounded great.
Josh (00:41):
I mean I'll edit out most of it.
Travis (00:43):
Okay, perfect.
Edit to a podcaster of mycaliber.
Josh (00:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Travis (00:48):
So last week we talked about Betty and Barney Hill, not
the Flintstones character whichI found out on the show.
Josh (00:53):
Yeah, I forgot about that.
Travis (00:55):
I binged as much Flintstones as I could.
It was a lot of episodes, bythe way.
Josh (00:59):
Were you Flintstones or Jetsons-men?
Travis (01:06):
I Flintstones or Jetsons .
I like the everyday kind ofslog through it that the
Flintstones gave me, but I likethe world the Jetsons was
building.
So I guess a blend of both.
Josh (01:12):
They kind of both tickle different parts of my fancy.
Travis (01:15):
Yeah, Except when you look at the timeline.
So George Jetson is like 50years old and his wife is like
in her 30s and they've beenmarried for 20 years.
Josh (01:27):
It's the future man.
We can't be prejudiced.
Travis (01:30):
That means she was a teenager when they got married.
Josh (01:34):
Interesting, it's going to keep me up at night.
I'm going to have to watch itnow.
Travis (01:38):
Well, let it keep you up at night, it will.
Let's put this podcast asideand let's just make this a
Jetsons podcast, which kind ofis similar to what we're talking
about A little bit.
I mean not on today's show, butspace yeah.
Josh (01:51):
Well, I mean a little bit on today's show.
We're looking up into space, ohyeah, okay, I mean, if you
listen to the last episode, youknow what we're going to talk
about.
This episode because of thebaseline quiz.
Travis (02:01):
Yeah, I was just.
I just like always, like torecap our last episode.
Oh, I don't just a little bitoh shit, okay, so never mind
betty and barney hill yeah, weagreed in that episode and if
you want to know what we agreedabout, listen to the episode.
Listen to the episode.
Josh (02:15):
Yeah and you know what.
I actually don't remember if weagreed or not spoiler for the
previous episode yeah, listen toit if you're just jumping in,
we just ruined it.
(02:42):
Okay, this week we are doing theclear night skies of Arizona
and Nevada and even parts ofMexico.
People reported seeingsomething unusual, a mysterious
craft.
What began as few isolatedsightings soon became an event
witnessed by thousands.
It started just after 7 pm inHenderson, nevada, where a man
reported seeing a V-shapedformation of lights moving
(03:03):
through the sky.
The strange lights continuedsouth and soon the phones at
police departments and newsstations began ringing off the
hooks, as more people describedseeing the same formation An
immense, silent craft the sizeof several football fields, with
five to seven lights movingsteadily over the desert.
The lights were unlike anythingwitnesses had ever seen.
(03:23):
They were evenly spaced, flyingin a triangular formation over
homes, highways andneighborhoods.
Some described the lights asamber-colored or bright white,
while others claimed to seeenormous dark structure
connecting the lights, so largethey said that it blocked out
the stars.
By 8.30 pm the lights reachedPhoenix, arizona, where hundreds
of residents, entire families,police officers, doctors and
(03:47):
more watched the phenomenonunfold.
People stepped out of theirhomes, pulled off the highways
and gathered outside in stunnedsilence as the lights drifted
over the city.
The Phoenix Lights incidentleft a lasting mark on all who
witnessed it, on all whowitnessed it, with thousands of
people reporting the mysteriousV-shaped lights.
The sheer volume of testimonymakes it one of the most
credible and widely witnessedUFO sightings in modern history.
Travis (04:11):
Okay, so that's a little bit of context for what we're
going to talk about today.
Yeah Right, that's the initialstory.
Josh (04:16):
That is the story Aliens came to Arizona.
Travis (04:19):
What do you think it means when phones ring off the
hook?
So I have a cell phone, there'snot a hook that I put, oh, come
on, don't do this.
Josh (04:27):
What does that mean?
We all know phones wereoriginally on hooks do we know
that?
Travis (04:34):
yeah, how long has it been since you've seen a phone?
Josh (04:36):
on a hook.
I don't know it has been.
Travis (04:39):
I'm 35 it's a weird phrase.
I think that should be retired.
Josh (04:43):
But I think it's been probably 25 years since I've
seen one.
Because we were early adoptersof the wireless phone, we still
called it a hook.
Even though there was no hook,there was a little charging base
.
Yeah, like a port.
Travis (04:57):
Yeah, we did have like one or two phones in our house
that had cables, but yeah, wehad wireless phones.
My mom even got one of thoseheadsets that you wear.
That look absolutely ridiculous.
Josh (05:10):
That you see middle-aged men wear in their cars sometimes
, but bigger, because thesephones With the big microphone.
Travis (05:16):
No, they were it was.
You put like a headphone on andthen you slide the phone in.
Oh geez, so it was monstrous.
Josh (05:24):
Well, your mom also cut your hair with a flow.
Travis (05:27):
Actually, I started doing it, josh, when I turned 14
, I started cutting my own hairwith a flow.
Okay, I didn't have my mom doit anymore.
That's confidence.
It was confidence.
It was the same haircut, a bowlhaircut for the rest of my life
.
Josh (05:39):
Do you want to explain what the flow is to our
listeners?
Travis (05:42):
It is a brilliant invention.
Have you ever cut your own hairand thought, oh, I hate the
cleanup of this, this sucks.
Well, the Flowbee is here totell you.
It will eliminate all of thatcleanup, because you hook this
thing up to your vacuum and itnot only cleans it up, but it
pulls your hair through thecutting device.
You don't even need a comb.
(06:03):
It pulls the hair out Well, itlifts it up, it sucks it up into
these cutters and then it cutsit.
So you get a nice, even cut andno cleanup, no moss, no fuss.
It's perfect.
So it sounds like your mombought the future.
Josh (06:16):
Yeah, futuristic gadgets.
Travis (06:17):
Uh-huh, we were talking about Jetsons before.
This is like what the Jetsonswould use to cut their hair.
Yeah, it would be like, hookedup to Rosie, their in-house
robotic maid, she would havelike a vacuum attachment with a
hair cutter, and I think thatwas probably an episode,
probably Okay.
So what else can we talk aboutwith this first bit of
storytelling?
(06:39):
I mean one of the biggest thingsto talk about are the witnesses
.
So people pulled over on theside of the road and then what?
When they got home, they calledit in, or how was there?
Were people that?
Josh (06:45):
how do we know?
Travis (06:46):
so many people called in .
This is considered to be one ofthe biggest sightings in
american history.
Josh (06:51):
Right, yes, so there were people already at home.
They stepped out, there waspeople that were driving and
just like what the fuck is thatswerved?
Travis (07:00):
off the road.
Sure, that's editorializing,though.
Josh (07:03):
Yeah, a little bit I want to keep it hot and there I mean
there's people everywhere.
Travis (07:09):
There's people in the streets.
Cats were living with dogs.
Josh (07:12):
Rain was falling up but yeah, the witnesses are.
The main thing about this wholestory is that first there were
so many and then we've talked inother episodes how eyewitnesses
sometimes it being different,like the aerial school, seemed
as though they didn'tcorroborate.
Travis (07:29):
Right, they're just like 62 kids.
Sure man, their testimony isgolden.
Josh (07:34):
But them not corroborating and showing different things.
It kind of gave it a little bitof validity which made it seem
like, okay, they didn't come upwith this together.
Each of them saw something, butit wasn't a story that they all
got together and decided to lieabout.
This is different.
They all saw the same thing andthere's video of it.
Travis (07:53):
Yeah.
Josh (07:54):
People from all walks of life seeing this.
So I think we should go oversome of the witness statements.
Okay, let's do it.
So one of the witnesstestimonies is Dr Lynn Katai, an
esteemed physician and healtheducator is one of the most
prominent witnesses of thePhoenix Lights.
On the evening of March 13th1997, from her mountainside home
(08:16):
in Phoenix, arizona, dr Kataiobserved and documented a series
of unexplained lights in thenight sky and she captured these
phenomenon on both video and 35millimeter film, providing some
of the clearest visual evidenceof the event.
Yeah, and I would imagine,probably some of the clearest in
existence, because a lot ofthis footage that we've seen and
(08:36):
other things, or even some ofthe military footage, it's not
the best.
Travis (08:41):
Yeah Well, most of it's been redacted right.
We'll never know all the goodstuff.
All the good stuff's beendeleted high-end 4k.
Josh (08:48):
Why don't these airplanes and fighter jets have 4k
high-end video?
Travis (08:54):
I don't know.
That's a that's a good question.
Josh (08:55):
Maybe they are maybe they do and they make it shitty for
us, you know, we're gonnarelease it but we're gonna make
it look real crappy, or maybewe're just civilians and we
don't understand what we'reactually looking at.
Yeah, anyways, so shedefinitely provided the best
evidence and the clearestevidence that anyone has of this
.
Travis (09:14):
So she had a camera.
This was like recorded outsideof her house.
Josh (09:18):
Yes, on her mountainside home I would imagine a doctor's
little deep pockets.
Yeah, and she is better thaneveryone else because she has
money and she feels as thoughshe needs to live above the
peasants, yep.
Travis (09:35):
That's why they all live on a hill, so they can look
down on everybody.
Josh (09:38):
I bet she's such a nice person.
I apologize.
Travis (09:41):
She seems like a very sweet person.
I watched a very short clip ofsomebody interviewing her and
she was very sweet.
Josh (09:46):
Was she.
Travis (09:46):
Mm-hmm Good, just a down-to-earth person.
Josh (09:49):
Well, and that's interesting because initially
she wanted to remain anonymous.
Travis (09:52):
Yeah, she went as Dr X.
Ooh, which isn't that thedoctor that created the
Powerpuff Girls?
I think you're right, that wasChemical X right, that was
chemical x.
Josh (10:07):
Yeah, he knocked over the chemical x.
Yeah, good reference, uh-huh.
So yeah, she did.
She came in as dr x in earlymedia, but her desire to
understand and share the truthabout the phoenix lights led her
to come forward publicly andsince then she dedicated herself
to researching the incident,authoring the book the phoenix
lights a skeptic's discoverythat we are not alone, and
producing an internationallyacclaimed documentary on the
subject.
So she went there, she usedthose deep pockets to help the
(10:31):
people know about this Cause Imean, that's the other thing is
this wasn't really reported onwhat until three months after
the actual incident and everyonewas asking questions and making
these calls and trying tofigure out what happened.
Travis (10:44):
But they were just calling local authorities and
they're not going to those guys,aren't going to have an answer.
They're calling their sheriff'sdepartment, their local police
precinct.
Josh (10:51):
The local authorities saw the same thing they did and they
want the answers as well.
Travis (10:55):
How do you think those phone calls went?
Were they totally normal andchill?
Josh (10:58):
There I was smoking my J and then Go on what time was
this?
Travis (11:04):
Are you okay?
Do we need to send somebody outto see you?
Josh (11:07):
No.
Travis (11:08):
Can you tell me what?
Josh (11:08):
your address is Huh, I'm on a mountainside.
Travis (11:15):
There's like some shit up in the sky and, okay, can you
describe this thing that you'reseeing?
Josh (11:18):
It's like a bunch of space geese decided to like fly.
Space geese, yeah so geesedecided to like fly space geese.
Yeah, so they're honking.
I don't know, are they flying?
Travis (11:35):
south what they're just going.
It looks cool.
Did you mean to call who I?
I gotta go.
Okay, I'm sure you've got somevery pressing things.
Uh click.
Josh (11:43):
Hello, he put the phone on the hook.
Travis (11:46):
What was that character's name?
Just for feature reference.
Maybe he'll come back.
Josh (11:50):
Oh, that's a good one.
Travis (11:51):
Let me think tile oh, his name's tile t-y-l-e, classic
.
Josh (11:56):
Yeah, right, right like a tyler and kyle.
Travis (11:59):
You don't want his name to get confused with the stuff
you put on your floor no so.
Josh (12:05):
Beyond her personal experience, dr katai has become
an advocate for publicdisclosure and education
regarding explained phenomena.
She continues to speak atconferences and events, sharing
her insights and encouragingopen dialogue about the
mysteries that remain in ourskies.
She sounds super cool.
Travis (12:22):
Very cool.
So we watched a couple ofvideos where they had like a
silhouette representing LynnKatai.
Yeah, but the interview that Iwatched, it was like a piece of
a documentary.
You could see her face fully.
It was just her and theinterviewer talking.
So she's pretty open about herinvolvement now, whereas maybe
(12:43):
before she was worried aboutgetting ostracized.
I mean, she was a physician andwas doing pretty well for
herself.
As we said, she lives on ahillside and is looking down on
all of us plebes.
I don't know what.
What are your thoughts?
Josh (12:55):
I imagine some of the earlier clips that we've seen.
She may have still been in theProfessor X phase and then
eventually she's like I can'ttake this Like this.
This is too real, People needto know about this.
And now she goes around.
She's a huge advocate, talkingat conferences, she writes books
, makes documentaries, so I mean, she's one of the bigger names
(13:15):
in the alien community.
Travis (13:18):
Now I think, just from the little bit that I've read,
she's really an advocate forjust getting any information out
there.
Josh (13:25):
Yeah, the open dialogue, it doesn't matter what it is.
I mean, like you and I weretalking how, when we tell people
about this podcast, they getreally excited and they know
more than we would have expectedthem to know.
Travis (13:37):
Yeah, and I think there's majority of people and
have some pretty wild thoughtson it.
Josh (13:42):
Yes, Majority of people know more than we give them
credit for, but no one talksabout it because there's a
stigma around it that you'recrazy, and that was probably her
thought process as well.
It's like I have too much tolose.
I'm a doctor, I have all thisstuff.
I can't be called crazy becauseI'll lose all my patients and
then eventually she's like itdoesn't even matter, like this
is too important or she's at apoint in her career where this
(14:05):
kind of thing is not going toruin it.
Travis (14:08):
She's at the sunset of her career, at her full height
and power could be, and it's nowlike, well, nothing could bring
me down maybe she took an earlyretirement.
Josh (14:16):
I don't know if she's still practicing.
I don't either.
Um, there was also governorfife, what a wild name.
Travis (14:23):
Like a piper yeah, fife pfeiffer.
Josh (14:25):
Yeah, so this one was crazy.
I actually knew about thisbefore doing some of the
research for this topic.
He just thought it was a joke.
That's how it came across, asthough he was just playing it
off.
Well, you gotta think aboutthis, is 97.
Travis (14:40):
Again, there's a stigma around, even before the record.
Today we were talking about uh,dnd and like my aversion to
getting involved in dnd.
I'm a huge nerd but dungeonsand dragons has always been one
of those things that I'm like,uh, too nerdy for me, but it
blends two things that I lovelike theatricality too nerdy for
me, but it blends two thingsthat I love like theatricality
and fantasy.
Josh (15:01):
And there would be no more Travis.
Travis (15:02):
There'd be no more Travis.
It would be Tannis half-elven,the character from the
Dragonlance Chronicles writtenby Margaret Weiss and Tracy
Aikman.
I really identified with thatcharacter Anyway.
Josh (15:15):
Sounds like you're already there.
Travis (15:16):
That's the thing, man.
Man, I was dangerously close,just right on the precipice yeah
, there's some things.
Josh (15:22):
I I mean, I'm a huge video game player and there's a lot
of video games I don't start.
I look at it, I'm like, yeah,this is gonna consume me.
Travis (15:29):
I'm gonna not tap into this every time I start a new
zelda I get full of anxietybecause I know what those games
involve.
Josh (15:39):
My kids aren't going to see me.
Travis (15:40):
They're not going to see me and I'm a completionist so I
try to get everything done.
Yeah, it's very taxing, anyway,fife, fife, fife, simington.
Josh (15:50):
Yep, he was getting a lot of pressure.
He's the governor of Arizona.
All these people in the statewere trying to figure out what
was going on and he's the topperson in charge and feeling the
weight of the public wantingall this information.
He called a press conferencebut instead of giving answers,
he did the biggest dick move youcould do in this situation and
(16:12):
he brought.
Travis (16:13):
He was like we're going to bring in an eyewitness.
Josh (16:15):
Yeah, no, we're going to bring in the person that's
responsible.
Yeah, and we're gonna bring inan eyewitness.
Travis (16:18):
Yeah, no, we're gonna bring in the person that's
responsible yeah, and we'regonna question them.
And he dressed one of his aidesin an alien outfit like that
stereotypical alien with bigeyes, kind of an angular light
bulb shaped head yeah, shinysilver suit like just yeah
probably taxpayer money probablyI don't.
I can't say that no, no, I'msure he did.
They probably went, probablywent to like a Halloween store
(16:39):
or an arts and crafts store andthey put something together and
that was paid for by taxpayerdollars.
Like, yeah, just go and getthis stuff, we'll write it off.
Josh (16:47):
Yeah, goof tax.
Travis (16:50):
Is that what?
Josh (16:50):
it's called yeah, it's called a goof tax.
If any politician wants to makea goof, they just take it out
of taxpayers' money.
Travis (16:57):
Yeah, I'm going to go do a goof.
Josh (16:59):
Easy.
So he meant for it to be a joke, to ease the tension, probably
saying like okay, guys, I getoff my back, I'm only doing my
best.
And it came across as an insultto all these people who saw
what they saw.
Travis (17:15):
Yeah Well, and then legitimizes the marginalization
of these testimonies.
Right, this is a governor of astate making fun, punching down
on these people that all claimedto have seen this thing.
And then the biggest shocker ofall was that he considered
himself one of these people,like had seen these lights.
Josh (17:35):
Yeah, years later, in 2007 , symington admitted that he too
had seen the lights and hedescribed witnessing the massive
, silent, v-shaped craft unlikeanything he'd ever seen in his
years of piloting.
So yeah, he was a pilot and hesaid that I know just about
every machine that flies.
Travis (17:52):
It was bigger than anything I'd ever seen.
Josh (17:55):
It just felt otherworldly.
So his confession added a newlayer to the Phoenix Lights
mystery.
While he maintained that hestaged the press conference
prank to keep the public calm,his own sighting confirmed what
many residents had been sayingall along it's real, we saw it.
What is it?
Travis (18:12):
Yeah, that's just a wild statement.
I'm a pilot so I know aboutevery machine that flies.
That's like saying I've had onebeer, I've had a Budweiser and
now I'm familiar with all stylesof beer.
I mean, he could be anenthusiast, he could, but it's
not like that knowledge justcomes with being a pilot.
Josh (18:29):
Yeah.
Travis (18:30):
It's just a weird flex.
Josh (18:31):
It is Absolutely.
Travis (18:34):
So let's talk a little bit about what's going on in
popular culture.
Then the first Iron man hadbeen out, we'd started to see
this big Marvel run.
Nerd culture was really rampingup and this guy was like
looking at the tide shift likejocks down, thumbs down, fart
sound Nerds opposite of fartsound, thumbs up.
Josh (18:51):
I would imagine opposite of fart would just be like a
slide whistle, like someone elsefarts and then you suck it back
up.
Travis (18:56):
Okay, the fart would just be like a slide whistle,
like someone else farts, andthen you suck it back up.
Josh (19:01):
Okay, this is getting weird.
So 1997, when this eventhappened?
Travis (19:10):
Just to be fair, you gave it a sound.
I was just yes, anding you 2007is what you're talking about,
where there's a uptick in sci-fiand cool shit in in media well,
popular culture had beenshifting towards comic book
movies, and we saw thatespecially in like the 2010s up
(19:32):
until most recently, where nowit's kind of on a decline, but
that was when I was a kid.
That was was what I alwayswanted to happen but was pretty
sure would never happen was thatthe things that I was very
interested in, which is comicsand fantasy, was going to be
popular, because even thosemovies were kind of fringe.
We didn't see a whole lot offantasy movies, especially
through like the 80s.
(19:52):
Well, 80s was a weird decade,but there wasn't a whole lot of
there wasn't a lot of highquality.
No, we got like Star Wars.
Even the Star Trek movies,though, just kind of failed.
Josh (20:03):
Yeah.
Travis (20:04):
And then Star Wars.
We didn't see anything afterReturn of the Jedi for 20 years.
Josh (20:10):
Yeah.
Travis (20:10):
It wasn't part of popular culture.
And so when I think thisgovernor started to see it like
a shift, he was like, okay, nowit's all right for me to.
I just don't like that he was agovernor and he was punching
down Like these are people thatwere part of his population and
he was like, oh, you guys are abunch of fringe weirdos.
Josh (20:27):
The people who experienced it felt like they were being
mocked.
Travis (20:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then they, they were.
Josh (20:32):
And that he was basically tongue in cheek saying that this
is a hoax, yeah, which sucksBig time.
Travis (20:39):
So there is a famous person that I learned about
Probably the most famous personin the world.
Josh (20:44):
I learned about this person being involved with the
Phoenix Lights during our quizlast episode and I only got it
right because I copied you.
Travis (20:53):
Yeah, so Kurt Russell, maybe you heard of him.
If you've heard of Kurt russell, it's probably because of the
dexter riley series that disneyproduced.
Right the computer or tennisshoes.
My brain had too many pants, orwhatever I have no idea what
you're talking about.
Josh (21:08):
You've never seen the computer or tennis shoes no, uh,
so this character, dexter rileyis this disney?
Travis (21:13):
yeah, disney back tv show no, it's a movie.
Back in disney's early.
They did a lot of live actionwhich they're getting back into,
but there's this trilogy, theDexter Riley trilogy, and those
included the strongest man inthe world.
He developed a serum that madehim super strong and he enters
into this world's strongest mancompetition.
It's hilarious, kurt Russell,kurt Russell, oh my gosh.
(21:36):
Very young Kurt Russell.
Anyway, a very beautiful humanbeing.
Some of the most piercing blueeyes you'll ever see, if you've
ever, if you've seen the Thing,john Carpenter's the Thing.
That is in contrast to like theatmosphere.
It's a pretty dark movie, eventhough it's shot out in the snow
, but his eyes just sparkle.
Josh (21:55):
Jeez Sounds like not only do you love this man, but you're
in love with him.
Travis (22:00):
Maybe, maybe, a little bit Okay, I guess a little bit
of a celebrity crush.
I think Kurt Russell's a verycool.
I don't like his personalpolitics, but I find him a very
engaging person on screen.
Josh (22:09):
Well, let's let the listeners know how he's involved
.
Travis (22:12):
So he's a pilot too.
So obviously he knows all theflying machines that are out
there your aeroplanes and yourwhirlybirds, your helicopters.
What are some other flyingmachines?
The flying machine Biplanes.
The biplanes, those bicyclesthat you pedal, that have the
wings that flap on the side.
Josh (22:34):
They have like 12 wings.
Travis (22:35):
Brooms.
Kurt Russell knows all aboutthose Yep, so he was actually
flying with his steps on Oscarand Oscar pointed it out and
Kurt wasn't really sure what todo, so he called it in.
He saw these lights.
He's like I don't know whatthey are.
Called it in, which is thecorrect thing to do.
Yeah, right, yeah, you seesomething.
Say something, right.
That's what you always say.
That's what I have tattooed onmy ass, where nobody can see it.
Josh (23:00):
Well, that's why I mean, if they do see it, they need to
say something yeah, I don't wantmy ass hanging out.
It's actually a good place toput it, it is so they're just
out and about flying around.
Travis (23:14):
He's flying his son to see his girlfriend.
His son was a teenager and yeah, they were just on like a very
cool, very rich person typething to be doing, Like let's
just go on the plane and we'llgo and visit your girlfriend.
Josh (23:24):
Yeah, they probably lived on a mountainside.
Travis (23:26):
Just go mountainside to mountainside, yeah yeah, you
don't even have to touch thedisgusting middle part of it.
Okay, so he's flying a privateplane going into Phoenix with
his son.
As they approach Phoenix SkyHarbor Airport, something caught
his eye.
It's set of brilliant lightsand a perfect V formation
hovering over the city.
Russell was puzzled, unable toidentify the lights, so he
contacted air traffic control.
(23:47):
He said do you guys know what'sgoing on here?
The air traffic controllerswere equally baffled.
They had no record of anyaircraft in the area and they
saw nothing unusual on theirradar, which is weird, right,
yeah a lot of historical UAPincidences usually show up on
radar.
Isn't that?
Oh, they do usually show up.
Josh (24:05):
A lot of them do show up on radar, yeah, but this time it
didn't.
Travis (24:07):
This time it did not.
Isn't that convenient?
Russell continued to monitorthe lights as he prepared to
land, describing the formationas both unusual and eerily
beautiful.
Once he landed and shared hisexperience with the authorities,
he pushed the incident out ofhis mind, going on with his life
, never suspecting that he hadwitnessed one of the most
significant UFO sightings of alltime.
Years later, during aninterview in 2017, Kurt Russell
(24:29):
stunned the world by revealinghis involvement.
He shared how, after watching adocumentary on the Phoenix
Lights with his family, he had asudden realization, and that
was that he was that mysteriouspilot who reported the sighting
to air traffic control.
I actually I don't know whatlate night show it was on Maybe
Kimmel.
He was on with his son and theywere talking about it.
Josh (24:49):
Interesting.
I imagine he was super excitedwhen he was watching the
documentary.
Travis (24:52):
He was like I'm part of this.
You know what?
Josh (24:55):
I'm going to say I was the pilot.
Travis (24:57):
That's what you're going to say.
Yeah, how old were you in 97?
I was 10.
You're old enough, yeah, oldenough to cry, old enough to fly
?
That's what you say.
Josh (25:07):
Yeah, I have that right under my tattoo.
You've got a lot of tattoos.
Travis (25:12):
Yeah, we'll have a time to find that out.
My body is a story.
Josh (25:20):
You're like the guy from memento, yeah, where you just
write down all the stuff thathappens to you get tattooed.
But it is wild, that just anormal thing.
You saw something weird.
You didn't make anything of itother than I should probably
call it in, that's that.
And then years later he's likeholy shit, that's what I saw.
Like I would get super giddy.
I'd go on.
Travis (25:35):
Kimmel too, not kimmel 1 no, you go on kimmel, I'll go
on kimmel 2.
Yeah, the new, updated versionon espn 3.
Josh (25:43):
Yeah, so there have been official explanation, and when
we say official, that meansgovernment explanation, right?
Okay, so the us air forceclaims both events are
attributed to militaryactivities.
The v?
V-shaped object, they say, werefive A-10 Warthog jets flying
in formation as part of anOperation Snowbird, a training
(26:05):
program at Davis-Monthan AirForce Base.
The stationary lights, theysaid, were illumination flares
dropped by the A-10 aircraftsduring the training exercise.
Okay, so that is the officialstatement.
Travis (26:17):
I guess you're going to say that that's not official, or
that's not true.
Josh (26:22):
I don't know.
I mean, there's a handful ofthings that don't line up.
So the timing discrepancieswhile the flare drop aligns with
the second wave of sightings,it doesn't explain the V-shaped
objects reported hours earlier.
Flares don't move across astate as well as stick around
for hours.
Eyewitness discrepanciesthere's tons of witnesses,
(26:44):
including the former governor,and they strongly refute the
flare explanation for theV-shaped object, citing its
immense size, silent movementand unique characteristics
unlike any known aircraft.
And then there was no radarconfirmation.
So that's the big one.
If there's planes up there,these guys aren't flying dark.
Travis (27:02):
Yeah, but it was dark out.
It was dark, so they wereflying in the dark.
Josh (27:06):
They were flying in the dark, but they weren't incognito
.
Travis (27:09):
Yeah, are you going to explain what radar is?
Josh (27:11):
Radar.
Travis (27:13):
It's a super easy concept to wrap your mind around
, josh, but you're the biggestexpert on radar, so why don't
you tell us what radar is?
Josh (27:18):
Yeah, so radar is a.
She was an up and coming dancerfrom Australia, and she
competed in the Olympics, wasn'tshe?
Travis (27:27):
She was a break dancer.
Josh (27:29):
She was a break dancer and she hung up her hat.
Travis (27:32):
Yeah, I'm just.
I'm looking it up.
It is this everything you'resaying is backed up on the
Wikipedia page.
Josh (27:38):
Of what radar is Radar yeah, cool, well, I'm glad.
Travis (27:41):
There's a lot of talk about it being like a system for
detecting the presence,direction, distance and speed of
aircraft, ships and otherobjects by sending the pulses of
high frequency electromagneticwaves that are reflected off the
object back to the source.
But a breakdancer is probablythe top one.
Josh (27:54):
Well, I said she hung up her hat and that she was.
She retired the name, sheretired and now she spends most
of her time doing those thingsReflecting Electros Back.
Travis (28:03):
Yep, Okay.
Josh (28:05):
Yeah, radar should be able to pick up things in the air.
I mean it's like sonar,basically right, but with
electromagnet.
Travis (28:11):
Yeah, sonar is underwater.
Josh (28:13):
Underwater.
Travis (28:13):
And it's ear like sonic auditory.
Josh (28:16):
If they were flying, they would be there.
Travis (28:18):
Yes, they should.
I mean should be detectable.
We can get radar, I think at acertain level it isn't picked up
because of a lot of the otherinterference, like birds and
buildings and things like that,so it's harder to detect with
radar.
But at a certain elevation, yes, they should get like a ping
off of that.
So how high was this?
(28:38):
6,000 feet, 6,000.
So easily should have beenpicked up by radar.
Josh (28:43):
Yeah, and there should be flight paths, there should be
documents of their test flightsand their format.
I mean they should all be there, but none of it is.
So not just the radar, but allthese other things.
There's also a conflict ofinformation, because the
Davis-Monthan Air Force Baseinitially denied having any
aircrafts in the air at the timeof the first sighting.
Travis (29:04):
Yeah, but now they're saying it's the A-10 Warthogs.
Josh (29:07):
Yeah.
Travis (29:07):
Which I think have the ability to maintain their
elevation.
They don't have to move forwardor back.
They can, like stop, I think.
Josh (29:15):
I don't.
I mean, only helicopters can dothat I know carriers?
Travis (29:18):
No, there are jets.
Carriers can do that.
Josh (29:21):
Oh, really Mm-hmm Interesting.
I didn't know that.
Travis (29:23):
X-Men's Quinjet that can land straight up and down, so I
know that that is a true thing.
Josh (29:29):
And what was the Agents of SHIELD Uh called uh here?
Travis (29:40):
we go again.
I should know this.
You know, if you were a pilot,I know you would know this
information.
All this information would havebeen given to me.
I know you just absorb it.
Josh (29:43):
Well, let's keep moving on yeah, let's keep moving on so
today, yeah, over 25 years later, the phoenix lights still
remain an unsolved mystery.
Were they classified militaryexperiments, or extraterrestrial
visitors, or something elseentirely?
We don't know.
But the thousands who witnessedthe events are certain of one
thing, and that's that they sawsomething real.
Travis (30:07):
And now they're one degree of separation away from
Kurt Russell, because they allshare this experience together.
Josh (30:12):
Yeah, I guess they just automatically know him.
Travis (30:15):
Yeah, they get a Christmas card from him every
year.
Yeah, 600 Christmas cards.
Josh (30:21):
So I'm I'm going to uncover this whole thing right
now and just let everyone knowthat aliens are mic drop that
that that aliens, that aliens?
Travis (30:33):
oh okay, I did not understand what you were trying
to communicate to me.
I'm just saying when it comesto you think okay, so are we
getting into our like finaljudgment?
Josh (30:43):
we are okay, when we go over everything that's happened
in the story, there's no way itwas a military, anything in my
mind.
So is it aliens?
Yes, no, or maybe it's a yesfor me.
Okay with how long they werethere, with how many people saw
it, with the discrepancies thatthe official statement had from
(31:04):
the military.
I mean, when the military doestraining stuff like that, it's
organized.
People would know about it, butno one knowing what was going
on, even in the highest officesin the state, and they couldn't
get very much information aboutit either.
I mean, I don't know why themilitary would be like, yep,
that was us covering it up, butthere was something phenomenal
(31:24):
and unexplained that happenedand I would definitely say that
it was aliens.
Travis (31:31):
Okay, well, surprising, nobody.
Nobody.
I'm gonna go in the maybebecause it's a mass sighting and
discrepancies are all over theplace with the witness accounts.
I think it very likely could bea military plane.
I'm not I'm not of the thinkingthat this has to be
definitively an alien ship.
I think that people see thingsand they misremember things, and
(31:52):
even my boy, kurt russell, whodidn't speak up about it until
years later, could have justbeen misremembering something
but also like, if it is aliens,why isn't this a more talked
about incident?
Because the government keepsputting a blanket on it, I know,
but I think that's just a veryconvenient answer.
You could say, like we don havea better underwater technology
(32:14):
because the government.
Everything can be blamed on thegovernment, and I don't think
that that's necessarily true.
Josh (32:19):
But if it is, you'd feel real dumb, huh.
Travis (32:22):
I would feel like a complete idiot.
Legally, I am a moron.
Josh (32:25):
You're projecting your lack of memory onto the
eyewitnesses.
Travis (32:30):
I'm not projecting my lack of memory.
I think I've got a pretty okaymemory.
I think it fair.
What are you doing?
Why are you attacking mepersonally?
What is going on here?
No, I think that memory is afaulty thing and it's not to be
taken as the only accounting ofsomething.
We have some really grainyfootage from Dr Katai and I
(32:53):
think that's great, but to meit's not definitive.
It just looks like lights inthe sky and that's just me with
my dumb eyes looking at anobject on a screen.
What would be definitive to you?
What do you want, government?
And I want something that's notsuper grainy.
I mean, what we're talkingabout right now is like these
(33:14):
Bigfoot sightings, where they'regrainy and it's Bigfoot from a
distance and people are insaneabout it.
I want something that is veryclear.
You want the government to tellyou that it's real, not just the
government, but I want theimages to be clear and not
editorialized by witnessessaying that this has to be
aliens, because it's somethingthat they can't define or maybe
(33:34):
something they haven't seenbefore.
Josh (33:36):
You need aliens in and around your mouth for you to
believe.
I get it.
Yeah, I get it.
You love fantasy.
Travis (33:47):
I mean, this is a mass citing.
It's a side effect of humanlanguage.
Where we're not all the same,our brains aren't the same.
So you and I could seesomething.
We would use different words todescribe what we saw.
Like we were to describe a carwreck.
You might say a car when it wasa truck.
We all know that some peoplejust refer to vehicles as cars.
Josh (34:07):
I refer to all vehicles as vans.
Travis (34:09):
Vans Okay, so we saw a van crash, but it was actually
like a Honda Civic.
Josh (34:13):
But these are smart people , I mean it's police officers,
the governor.
Travis (34:17):
You assume that we don't know?
Josh (34:18):
that those people are smart.
Travis (34:19):
Doctors, truck drivers oh, some of the smartest people
on planet Earth.
They know every land vehicle.
Josh (34:26):
Yeah, so yours is a maybe.
I'm okay with that.
I can live with that.
I can live with that.
It's a mid.
Travis (34:30):
maybe it goes between high and low, but it's a
definite maybe.
It's a definite maybe for medog.
Josh (34:36):
Okay.
Travis (34:37):
Not going to Hollywood with this one.
Josh (34:39):
Okay, well, I respect your opinion.
Travis (34:42):
I respect your opinion too.
Josh (34:43):
I'm eager for you to learn more, and I'm eager to learn
more myself, because I'mlearning along with you.
I feel like once we get to apoint, we'll have so much
information that it's going tobe hard to deny.
That's what I forecast.
Travis (34:59):
For you and for me?
Or are you withholding someinformation from me and waiting
for that shoe to drop?
Josh (35:04):
I feel like I'm already there.
I'm forecasting that for you.
I mean, we've only done 10episodes.
There's some of the bigger ones, but there's tons and tons of
stuff out there and we're stilllearning more every year.
Yeah, so with that, oh fuck,our next thing that we're going
to learn.
Travis (35:21):
What the fuck is this Hollow moon theory?
Josh (35:25):
Is the hollow moon theory.
I have no idea what this is.
Travis (35:30):
Oh, this sounds insane.
Josh (35:33):
So I was talking to our researcher, Jordan.
She said that she is slowlygoing to introduce us to things
that are a little more strange.
Travis (35:43):
I don't know if this is it.
This sounds cuckoo bananas.
Josh (35:47):
There's a lot of crazy things out there and she didn't
want to scare us right off thebat.
Travis (35:53):
No, that's fine, that's uh, that's how you cook a frog
or a lobster, right, because youput them in water and then you
just slowly start to turn up theheat and before they know it,
they're already cooked.
Yeah, that's kind of thisexperience slowly introducing
these weird things to us, andthen suddenly I'm gonna be like
that meme of charlie day andit's always sunny with all the
(36:15):
strings connecting.
Just a wild look on my face andprobably a bunch of paint
dripping out of my mouth okay,so I know nothing about this.
Josh (36:24):
Have you heard?
Of anything I've heard of it Iimagine, I mean just off, the
people are thinking, potentiallythe moon is hollow, which is
fun.
Okay, well, let's get into thisFirst question.
What is the hollow moon theory?
Is it a theory that one ofMars's moons was once a space
(36:44):
aquifer?
Is it a theory that one ofJupiter's moons is a spaceport,
earth's moon is entirely hollow,or one of mars's moons is an
abandoned spacecraft?
I mean, I'm just gonna go withthe obvious, yeah, same and say
the space aquifer oh, that theearth's moon is entirely hollow.
(37:06):
I mean, all of these soundreally interesting.
There might be a theory foreach one of these, so is that
what you're saying too?
Travis (37:13):
I don't see any other choice, although I do like the
idea.
I don't think.
Does mars have a moon?
Josh (37:19):
I don't know, I don't think, so I'm not a moon
scientist yeah, I'm not a moondoctor either so next question
which apollo mission is mostclosely associated with the
hollow moon theory?
So is it Apollo 11, Apollo 12,Apollo 13, or Apollo 17?
Travis (37:36):
So Apollo 13,.
That was the Ron Howard movie,so I'm going to rule that one
out.
I'm going to say Apollo 17,just going with my gut but I'm
probably wrong and I'm probablygoing to get dragged through the
coals.
Josh (37:49):
I don't know much about any of the Apollo missions, so
I'm going to say apollo 11 Ithink you're wrong okay, next
question what is the main pieceof evidence cited by proponents
of the hollow moon theory?
The presence of artificialstructures on the moon's surface
?
The unusual composition oflunar dust?
The moon's low density comparedto earth?
(38:12):
Or the moon rings like a bell?
Travis (38:17):
what does that mean?
Like you just get a big, uh bigmallet and it can hit the side
of the moon and it goes bong.
Yeah, maybe if it's hollow, I'mgonna say the moon's low
density compared to earth thatwould be my guess yeah, I mean,
I think that's mine too, justdeducing yeah, because you're
this pretty dense and we've got,you know, the all the layers
(38:39):
yeah, and it doesn't dong itdoesn't dong josh and I just
shared a very weird look we wereboth thinking that penis right.
Josh (38:52):
Yeah, we were both thinking of a sex joke.
Yeah, we were coming up withsomething.
Travis (38:56):
Yeah, like you know who does dong, though this guy who
has two thumbs and dongs all day, all night long.
Josh (39:03):
This guy okay, next question according to the
spaceship moon hypothesishypothesis, who created the moon
?
Humans from the future?
The reptilians?
The anunnaki?
What is that?
Or an unknown aliencivilization?
Oh my god, I'm torn betweenhumans from the future this is a
(39:25):
.
Travis (39:25):
This is a thing.
This is really stressing me outor the anunnaki okay, I'm just
gonna say generic, unknown aliencivilization I'm gonna say the
anarchy okay, I don't know whatthat is well, maybe we'll do an
episode on that next question.
Josh (39:39):
Fuck, I'm stressed out about this.
Which of the following claimsabout the moon's crater is cited
as evidence for the hollow moontheory?
The craters contain evidence ofmining.
The craters absorb objects likea sponge.
The craters have a uniformdepth regardless of impact size.
The craters emit strange lightsand magnetic anomalies.
Travis (40:00):
I don't think they have uniform depth.
I think that there are.
Yeah, they all have differentdepths, different depths, and
they have some that are muchdeeper than others, so I'm going
to rule that one out.
Evidence of mining yeah, that'swhen there are like a bunch of
pickaxes around and some dwarves.
Josh (40:14):
I mean that one's creepy.
The strange lights is creepy.
All of these are creepy.
Travis (40:19):
I'm going to say B Craters absorb objects like a
sponge.
Josh (40:23):
I was thinking that, but it's so weird.
This whole theory is weird,it's true, I'm going to say
evidence of mining.
I'm going to say evidence ofmining.
Okay, all right.
Well, let's see how we do.
Travis (40:34):
Oh wow, I did much better than I thought I was
going to do.
Josh (40:40):
I did real bad, did you?
Travis (40:42):
Yeah, tables have turned .
Josh (40:44):
What is the hollow moon theory?
We both got that right, themoon being hollow, right.
Travis (40:49):
Easy.
Which Apollo mission is mostclosely associated with the
hollow moon theory.
I knew 17 was like an importantone, 11 was an important one.
Josh (40:58):
13 immortalized the answer is 12, so I said 11.
You said what?
17?
17, okay, so we both got thatwrong.
Yeah, what is the main piece ofevidence cited by proponents of
the hollow moon theory?
We both said, oh my god, themoon's low density compared to
earth.
The answer is the moon ringslike a bell.
(41:20):
Who?
Travis (41:21):
is how, how, how, how does it ring like a bell?
How do we know that like issomeone just up there with a
little hammer hitting it yeah,we've been there.
But that's what people are justhitting the moon with their
hammer and saying like it soundshollow.
So we've got a cave system here.
Josh (41:39):
Yeah.
Travis (41:39):
If you stand on top of those caves and you hit the top
of that with a hammer, does thatring?
Josh (41:44):
What if it makes a sound when the aircraft or the
spaceship lands?
That'd be weird.
Well, I'm curious to learn moreabout that.
Okay, so next one.
According to the spaceship moonhypothesis, who created the
moon?
I said the Anunnaki, you saidan unknown alien civilization.
Travis (42:01):
Yes.
Josh (42:02):
That is correct.
Unknown alien civilization.
Dang it.
Okay, fine, I'll give it to youOnly because you got it right
though I don't believe this nextone.
Travis (42:12):
That can't be right.
Josh (42:13):
So last question which of the following claims about the
moon's crater is cited asevidence for the hollow moon
theory?
And the answer is the cratershave a uniform depth regardless
of impact size.
That's interesting and thatcould explain everything.
Travis (42:29):
I mean no, no, explain everything now.
Yeah, everything's a big word.
Josh (42:35):
No matter what hits it, it stops at the metal plate
underneath.
But that's not true.
Travis (42:40):
There are craters up there of varying depth.
Josh (42:42):
I guess not.
Maybe we just assumed.
Travis (42:45):
No no.
Josh (42:46):
Maybe they're not varying depths, but it's just varying
widths and sizes.
Travis (42:50):
No, I don't believe that for a second.
Josh (42:52):
Well, I am excited to find out all about this, because
this is fascinating yeah.
Travis (42:57):
Well, what a rip roaring roller coaster ride of a trivia
section that was.
Josh (43:02):
Yeah, get a hold of us if you want.
Travis (43:07):
If you don't, don't, yep .
If you don't want to get a holdof us, don't do it.
Yeah, don't.
Nobody is making you do that.
Nobody's going to make you getahold of us.
If you don't want to do it,just tell that person that is
telling you.
Unless it's us, get ahold of us.
We would love your feedback,but if it's not us telling you
to get ahold of us, don't worryabout it.
Go on about your business.
Josh (43:27):
You don't have to write to us.
If you are liking the show, letus know by getting a hold of us
or leaving a comment or tellingyour friends, because that way
we can grow and get thisinformation out to more people.
Travis (43:39):
Sure, I feel like this would be a really good
introduction to aliens sure asan introduction for me, me too
but yeah, thanks for listeningyeah, hit us with your famous
catchphrase, josh, that thingthat you say at the end of every
podcast sleep soundly into thenight, my sweet good night.
Josh (43:56):
Good night, sweet prince yeah, so keep discovering oh my
god, I don't know, I don't knowI wasn't prepared for you to
call me out like that.
If you didn't call me out, Iwould have had one.
You had one, like threeepisodes ago.
I've had a couple.
I think I had one the veryfirst one.
Travis (44:11):
I think it's different every time.
That's what's funny about it.
Josh (44:14):
But yeah, don't uh sleep on your back if you're a baby if
you're well yeah all right.
Travis (44:21):
Thanks for listening, guys.
Actually, I think it's don'tsleep on your tummy bye.
Thank you.
aliens aliens yes but maybe no.
Travis (00:19):
All right, hey guys, welcome back.
This is the show aliens, yes,but maybe no, with josh and
travis.
I'm travis and I'm josh.
This is an otherworldly podcast, as ambiguous as our title.
I felt like I wanted to recordthat differently.
I don't know, that's not okay.
That's not like, uh, the way wenormally start this yeah, it
(00:40):
sounded great.
Josh (00:41):
I mean I'll edit out most of it.
Travis (00:43):
Okay, perfect.
Edit to a podcaster of mycaliber.
Josh (00:47):
Yeah, thank you.
Travis (00:48):
So last week we talked about Betty and Barney Hill, not
the Flintstones character whichI found out on the show.
Josh (00:53):
Yeah, I forgot about that.
Travis (00:55):
I binged as much Flintstones as I could.
It was a lot of episodes, bythe way.
Josh (00:59):
Were you Flintstones or Jetsons-men?
Travis (01:06):
I Flintstones or Jetsons .
I like the everyday kind ofslog through it that the
Flintstones gave me, but I likethe world the Jetsons was
building.
So I guess a blend of both.
Josh (01:12):
They kind of both tickle different parts of my fancy.
Travis (01:15):
Yeah, Except when you look at the timeline.
So George Jetson is like 50years old and his wife is like
in her 30s and they've beenmarried for 20 years.
Josh (01:27):
It's the future man.
We can't be prejudiced.
Travis (01:30):
That means she was a teenager when they got married.
Josh (01:34):
Interesting, it's going to keep me up at night.
I'm going to have to watch itnow.
Travis (01:38):
Well, let it keep you up at night, it will.
Let's put this podcast asideand let's just make this a
Jetsons podcast, which kind ofis similar to what we're talking
about A little bit.
I mean not on today's show, butspace yeah.
Josh (01:51):
Well, I mean a little bit on today's show.
We're looking up into space, ohyeah, okay, I mean, if you
listen to the last episode, youknow what we're going to talk
about.
This episode because of thebaseline quiz.
Travis (02:01):
Yeah, I was just.
I just like always, like torecap our last episode.
Oh, I don't just a little bitoh shit, okay, so never mind
betty and barney hill yeah, weagreed in that episode and if
you want to know what we agreedabout, listen to the episode.
Listen to the episode.
Josh (02:15):
Yeah and you know what.
I actually don't remember if weagreed or not spoiler for the
previous episode yeah, listen toit if you're just jumping in,
we just ruined it.
(02:42):
Okay, this week we are doing theclear night skies of Arizona
and Nevada and even parts ofMexico.
People reported seeingsomething unusual, a mysterious
craft.
What began as few isolatedsightings soon became an event
witnessed by thousands.
It started just after 7 pm inHenderson, nevada, where a man
reported seeing a V-shapedformation of lights moving
(03:03):
through the sky.
The strange lights continuedsouth and soon the phones at
police departments and newsstations began ringing off the
hooks, as more people describedseeing the same formation An
immense, silent craft the sizeof several football fields, with
five to seven lights movingsteadily over the desert.
The lights were unlike anythingwitnesses had ever seen.
(03:23):
They were evenly spaced, flyingin a triangular formation over
homes, highways andneighborhoods.
Some described the lights asamber-colored or bright white,
while others claimed to seeenormous dark structure
connecting the lights, so largethey said that it blocked out
the stars.
By 8.30 pm the lights reachedPhoenix, arizona, where hundreds
of residents, entire families,police officers, doctors and
(03:47):
more watched the phenomenonunfold.
People stepped out of theirhomes, pulled off the highways
and gathered outside in stunnedsilence as the lights drifted
over the city.
The Phoenix Lights incidentleft a lasting mark on all who
witnessed it, on all whowitnessed it, with thousands of
people reporting the mysteriousV-shaped lights.
The sheer volume of testimonymakes it one of the most
credible and widely witnessedUFO sightings in modern history.
Travis (04:11):
Okay, so that's a little bit of context for what we're
going to talk about today.
Yeah Right, that's the initialstory.
Josh (04:16):
That is the story Aliens came to Arizona.
Travis (04:19):
What do you think it means when phones ring off the
hook?
So I have a cell phone, there'snot a hook that I put, oh, come
on, don't do this.
Josh (04:27):
What does that mean?
We all know phones wereoriginally on hooks do we know
that?
Travis (04:34):
yeah, how long has it been since you've seen a phone?
Josh (04:36):
on a hook.
I don't know it has been.
Travis (04:39):
I'm 35 it's a weird phrase.
I think that should be retired.
Josh (04:43):
But I think it's been probably 25 years since I've
seen one.
Because we were early adoptersof the wireless phone, we still
called it a hook.
Even though there was no hook,there was a little charging base
.
Yeah, like a port.
Travis (04:57):
Yeah, we did have like one or two phones in our house
that had cables, but yeah, wehad wireless phones.
My mom even got one of thoseheadsets that you wear.
That look absolutely ridiculous.
Josh (05:10):
That you see middle-aged men wear in their cars sometimes
, but bigger, because thesephones With the big microphone.
Travis (05:16):
No, they were it was.
You put like a headphone on andthen you slide the phone in.
Oh geez, so it was monstrous.
Josh (05:24):
Well, your mom also cut your hair with a flow.
Travis (05:27):
Actually, I started doing it, josh, when I turned 14
, I started cutting my own hairwith a flow.
Okay, I didn't have my mom doit anymore.
That's confidence.
It was confidence.
It was the same haircut, a bowlhaircut for the rest of my life
.
Josh (05:39):
Do you want to explain what the flow is to our
listeners?
Travis (05:42):
It is a brilliant invention.
Have you ever cut your own hairand thought, oh, I hate the
cleanup of this, this sucks.
Well, the Flowbee is here totell you.
It will eliminate all of thatcleanup, because you hook this
thing up to your vacuum and itnot only cleans it up, but it
pulls your hair through thecutting device.
You don't even need a comb.
(06:03):
It pulls the hair out Well, itlifts it up, it sucks it up into
these cutters and then it cutsit.
So you get a nice, even cut andno cleanup, no moss, no fuss.
It's perfect.
So it sounds like your mombought the future.
Josh (06:16):
Yeah, futuristic gadgets.
Travis (06:17):
Uh-huh, we were talking about Jetsons before.
This is like what the Jetsonswould use to cut their hair.
Yeah, it would be like, hookedup to Rosie, their in-house
robotic maid, she would havelike a vacuum attachment with a
hair cutter, and I think thatwas probably an episode,
probably Okay.
So what else can we talk aboutwith this first bit of
storytelling?
(06:39):
I mean one of the biggest thingsto talk about are the witnesses
.
So people pulled over on theside of the road and then what?
When they got home, they calledit in, or how was there?
Were people that?
Josh (06:45):
how do we know?
Travis (06:46):
so many people called in .
This is considered to be one ofthe biggest sightings in
american history.
Josh (06:51):
Right, yes, so there were people already at home.
They stepped out, there waspeople that were driving and
just like what the fuck is thatswerved?
Travis (07:00):
off the road.
Sure, that's editorializing,though.
Josh (07:03):
Yeah, a little bit I want to keep it hot and there I mean
there's people everywhere.
Travis (07:09):
There's people in the streets.
Cats were living with dogs.
Josh (07:12):
Rain was falling up but yeah, the witnesses are.
The main thing about this wholestory is that first there were
so many and then we've talked inother episodes how eyewitnesses
sometimes it being different,like the aerial school, seemed
as though they didn'tcorroborate.
Travis (07:29):
Right, they're just like 62 kids.
Sure man, their testimony isgolden.
Josh (07:34):
But them not corroborating and showing different things.
It kind of gave it a little bitof validity which made it seem
like, okay, they didn't come upwith this together.
Each of them saw something, butit wasn't a story that they all
got together and decided to lieabout.
This is different.
They all saw the same thing andthere's video of it.
Travis (07:53):
Yeah.
Josh (07:54):
People from all walks of life seeing this.
So I think we should go oversome of the witness statements.
Okay, let's do it.
So one of the witnesstestimonies is Dr Lynn Katai, an
esteemed physician and healtheducator is one of the most
prominent witnesses of thePhoenix Lights.
On the evening of March 13th1997, from her mountainside home
(08:16):
in Phoenix, arizona, dr Kataiobserved and documented a series
of unexplained lights in thenight sky and she captured these
phenomenon on both video and 35millimeter film, providing some
of the clearest visual evidenceof the event.
Yeah, and I would imagine,probably some of the clearest in
existence, because a lot ofthis footage that we've seen and
(08:36):
other things, or even some ofthe military footage, it's not
the best.
Travis (08:41):
Yeah Well, most of it's been redacted right.
We'll never know all the goodstuff.
All the good stuff's beendeleted high-end 4k.
Josh (08:48):
Why don't these airplanes and fighter jets have 4k
high-end video?
Travis (08:54):
I don't know.
That's a that's a good question.
Josh (08:55):
Maybe they are maybe they do and they make it shitty for
us, you know, we're gonnarelease it but we're gonna make
it look real crappy, or maybewe're just civilians and we
don't understand what we'reactually looking at.
Yeah, anyways, so shedefinitely provided the best
evidence and the clearestevidence that anyone has of this
.
Travis (09:14):
So she had a camera.
This was like recorded outsideof her house.
Josh (09:18):
Yes, on her mountainside home I would imagine a doctor's
little deep pockets.
Yeah, and she is better thaneveryone else because she has
money and she feels as thoughshe needs to live above the
peasants, yep.
Travis (09:35):
That's why they all live on a hill, so they can look
down on everybody.
Josh (09:38):
I bet she's such a nice person.
I apologize.
Travis (09:41):
She seems like a very sweet person.
I watched a very short clip ofsomebody interviewing her and
she was very sweet.
Josh (09:46):
Was she.
Travis (09:46):
Mm-hmm Good, just a down-to-earth person.
Josh (09:49):
Well, and that's interesting because initially
she wanted to remain anonymous.
Travis (09:52):
Yeah, she went as Dr X.
Ooh, which isn't that thedoctor that created the
Powerpuff Girls?
I think you're right, that wasChemical X right, that was
chemical x.
Josh (10:07):
Yeah, he knocked over the chemical x.
Yeah, good reference, uh-huh.
So yeah, she did.
She came in as dr x in earlymedia, but her desire to
understand and share the truthabout the phoenix lights led her
to come forward publicly andsince then she dedicated herself
to researching the incident,authoring the book the phoenix
lights a skeptic's discoverythat we are not alone, and
producing an internationallyacclaimed documentary on the
subject.
So she went there, she usedthose deep pockets to help the
(10:31):
people know about this Cause Imean, that's the other thing is
this wasn't really reported onwhat until three months after
the actual incident and everyonewas asking questions and making
these calls and trying tofigure out what happened.
Travis (10:44):
But they were just calling local authorities and
they're not going to those guys,aren't going to have an answer.
They're calling their sheriff'sdepartment, their local police
precinct.
Josh (10:51):
The local authorities saw the same thing they did and they
want the answers as well.
Travis (10:55):
How do you think those phone calls went?
Were they totally normal andchill?
Josh (10:58):
There I was smoking my J and then Go on what time was
this?
Travis (11:04):
Are you okay?
Do we need to send somebody outto see you?
Josh (11:07):
No.
Travis (11:08):
Can you tell me what?
Josh (11:08):
your address is Huh, I'm on a mountainside.
Travis (11:15):
There's like some shit up in the sky and, okay, can you
describe this thing that you'reseeing?
Josh (11:18):
It's like a bunch of space geese decided to like fly.
Space geese, yeah so geesedecided to like fly space geese.
Yeah, so they're honking.
I don't know, are they flying?
Travis (11:35):
south what they're just going.
It looks cool.
Did you mean to call who I?
I gotta go.
Okay, I'm sure you've got somevery pressing things.
Uh click.
Josh (11:43):
Hello, he put the phone on the hook.
Travis (11:46):
What was that character's name?
Just for feature reference.
Maybe he'll come back.
Josh (11:50):
Oh, that's a good one.
Travis (11:51):
Let me think tile oh, his name's tile t-y-l-e, classic
.
Josh (11:56):
Yeah, right, right like a tyler and kyle.
Travis (11:59):
You don't want his name to get confused with the stuff
you put on your floor no so.
Josh (12:05):
Beyond her personal experience, dr katai has become
an advocate for publicdisclosure and education
regarding explained phenomena.
She continues to speak atconferences and events, sharing
her insights and encouragingopen dialogue about the
mysteries that remain in ourskies.
She sounds super cool.
Travis (12:22):
Very cool.
So we watched a couple ofvideos where they had like a
silhouette representing LynnKatai.
Yeah, but the interview that Iwatched, it was like a piece of
a documentary.
You could see her face fully.
It was just her and theinterviewer talking.
So she's pretty open about herinvolvement now, whereas maybe
(12:43):
before she was worried aboutgetting ostracized.
I mean, she was a physician andwas doing pretty well for
herself.
As we said, she lives on ahillside and is looking down on
all of us plebes.
I don't know what.
What are your thoughts?
Josh (12:55):
I imagine some of the earlier clips that we've seen.
She may have still been in theProfessor X phase and then
eventually she's like I can'ttake this Like this.
This is too real, People needto know about this.
And now she goes around.
She's a huge advocate, talkingat conferences, she writes books
, makes documentaries, so I mean, she's one of the bigger names
(13:15):
in the alien community.
Travis (13:18):
Now I think, just from the little bit that I've read,
she's really an advocate forjust getting any information out
there.
Josh (13:25):
Yeah, the open dialogue, it doesn't matter what it is.
I mean, like you and I weretalking how, when we tell people
about this podcast, they getreally excited and they know
more than we would have expectedthem to know.
Travis (13:37):
Yeah, and I think there's majority of people and
have some pretty wild thoughtson it.
Josh (13:42):
Yes, Majority of people know more than we give them
credit for, but no one talksabout it because there's a
stigma around it that you'recrazy, and that was probably her
thought process as well.
It's like I have too much tolose.
I'm a doctor, I have all thisstuff.
I can't be called crazy becauseI'll lose all my patients and
then eventually she's like itdoesn't even matter, like this
is too important or she's at apoint in her career where this
(14:05):
kind of thing is not going toruin it.
Travis (14:08):
She's at the sunset of her career, at her full height
and power could be, and it's nowlike, well, nothing could bring
me down maybe she took an earlyretirement.
Josh (14:16):
I don't know if she's still practicing.
I don't either.
Um, there was also governorfife, what a wild name.
Travis (14:23):
Like a piper yeah, fife pfeiffer.
Josh (14:25):
Yeah, so this one was crazy.
I actually knew about thisbefore doing some of the
research for this topic.
He just thought it was a joke.
That's how it came across, asthough he was just playing it
off.
Well, you gotta think aboutthis, is 97.
Travis (14:40):
Again, there's a stigma around, even before the record.
Today we were talking about uh,dnd and like my aversion to
getting involved in dnd.
I'm a huge nerd but dungeonsand dragons has always been one
of those things that I'm like,uh, too nerdy for me, but it
blends two things that I lovelike theatricality too nerdy for
me, but it blends two thingsthat I love like theatricality
and fantasy.
Josh (15:01):
And there would be no more Travis.
Travis (15:02):
There'd be no more Travis.
It would be Tannis half-elven,the character from the
Dragonlance Chronicles writtenby Margaret Weiss and Tracy
Aikman.
I really identified with thatcharacter Anyway.
Josh (15:15):
Sounds like you're already there.
Travis (15:16):
That's the thing, man.
Man, I was dangerously close,just right on the precipice yeah
, there's some things.
Josh (15:22):
I I mean, I'm a huge video game player and there's a lot
of video games I don't start.
I look at it, I'm like, yeah,this is gonna consume me.
Travis (15:29):
I'm gonna not tap into this every time I start a new
zelda I get full of anxietybecause I know what those games
involve.
Josh (15:39):
My kids aren't going to see me.
Travis (15:40):
They're not going to see me and I'm a completionist so I
try to get everything done.
Yeah, it's very taxing, anyway,fife, fife, fife, simington.
Josh (15:50):
Yep, he was getting a lot of pressure.
He's the governor of Arizona.
All these people in the statewere trying to figure out what
was going on and he's the topperson in charge and feeling the
weight of the public wantingall this information.
He called a press conferencebut instead of giving answers,
he did the biggest dick move youcould do in this situation and
(16:12):
he brought.
Travis (16:13):
He was like we're going to bring in an eyewitness.
Josh (16:15):
Yeah, no, we're going to bring in the person that's
responsible.
Yeah, and we're gonna bring inan eyewitness.
Travis (16:18):
Yeah, no, we're gonna bring in the person that's
responsible yeah, and we'regonna question them.
And he dressed one of his aidesin an alien outfit like that
stereotypical alien with bigeyes, kind of an angular light
bulb shaped head yeah, shinysilver suit like just yeah
probably taxpayer money probablyI don't.
I can't say that no, no, I'msure he did.
They probably went, probablywent to like a Halloween store
(16:39):
or an arts and crafts store andthey put something together and
that was paid for by taxpayerdollars.
Like, yeah, just go and getthis stuff, we'll write it off.
Josh (16:47):
Yeah, goof tax.
Travis (16:50):
Is that what?
Josh (16:50):
it's called yeah, it's called a goof tax.
If any politician wants to makea goof, they just take it out
of taxpayers' money.
Travis (16:57):
Yeah, I'm going to go do a goof.
Josh (16:59):
Easy.
So he meant for it to be a joke, to ease the tension, probably
saying like okay, guys, I getoff my back, I'm only doing my
best.
And it came across as an insultto all these people who saw
what they saw.
Travis (17:15):
Yeah Well, and then legitimizes the marginalization
of these testimonies.
Right, this is a governor of astate making fun, punching down
on these people that all claimedto have seen this thing.
And then the biggest shocker ofall was that he considered
himself one of these people,like had seen these lights.
Josh (17:35):
Yeah, years later, in 2007 , symington admitted that he too
had seen the lights and hedescribed witnessing the massive
, silent, v-shaped craft unlikeanything he'd ever seen in his
years of piloting.
So yeah, he was a pilot and hesaid that I know just about
every machine that flies.
Travis (17:52):
It was bigger than anything I'd ever seen.
Josh (17:55):
It just felt otherworldly.
So his confession added a newlayer to the Phoenix Lights
mystery.
While he maintained that hestaged the press conference
prank to keep the public calm,his own sighting confirmed what
many residents had been sayingall along it's real, we saw it.
What is it?
Travis (18:12):
Yeah, that's just a wild statement.
I'm a pilot so I know aboutevery machine that flies.
That's like saying I've had onebeer, I've had a Budweiser and
now I'm familiar with all stylesof beer.
I mean, he could be anenthusiast, he could, but it's
not like that knowledge justcomes with being a pilot.
Josh (18:29):
Yeah.
Travis (18:30):
It's just a weird flex.
Josh (18:31):
It is Absolutely.
Travis (18:34):
So let's talk a little bit about what's going on in
popular culture.
Then the first Iron man hadbeen out, we'd started to see
this big Marvel run.
Nerd culture was really rampingup and this guy was like
looking at the tide shift likejocks down, thumbs down, fart
sound Nerds opposite of fartsound, thumbs up.
Josh (18:51):
I would imagine opposite of fart would just be like a
slide whistle, like someone elsefarts and then you suck it back
up.
Travis (18:56):
Okay, the fart would just be like a slide whistle,
like someone else farts, andthen you suck it back up.
Josh (19:01):
Okay, this is getting weird.
So 1997, when this eventhappened?
Travis (19:10):
Just to be fair, you gave it a sound.
I was just yes, anding you 2007is what you're talking about,
where there's a uptick in sci-fiand cool shit in in media well,
popular culture had beenshifting towards comic book
movies, and we saw thatespecially in like the 2010s up
(19:32):
until most recently, where nowit's kind of on a decline, but
that was when I was a kid.
That was was what I alwayswanted to happen but was pretty
sure would never happen was thatthe things that I was very
interested in, which is comicsand fantasy, was going to be
popular, because even thosemovies were kind of fringe.
We didn't see a whole lot offantasy movies, especially
through like the 80s.
(19:52):
Well, 80s was a weird decade,but there wasn't a whole lot of
there wasn't a lot of highquality.
No, we got like Star Wars.
Even the Star Trek movies,though, just kind of failed.
Josh (20:03):
Yeah.
Travis (20:04):
And then Star Wars.
We didn't see anything afterReturn of the Jedi for 20 years.
Josh (20:10):
Yeah.
Travis (20:10):
It wasn't part of popular culture.
And so when I think thisgovernor started to see it like
a shift, he was like, okay, nowit's all right for me to.
I just don't like that he was agovernor and he was punching
down Like these are people thatwere part of his population and
he was like, oh, you guys are abunch of fringe weirdos.
Josh (20:27):
The people who experienced it felt like they were being
mocked.
Travis (20:30):
Yeah, absolutely.
And then they, they were.
Josh (20:32):
And that he was basically tongue in cheek saying that this
is a hoax, yeah, which sucksBig time.
Travis (20:39):
So there is a famous person that I learned about
Probably the most famous personin the world.
Josh (20:44):
I learned about this person being involved with the
Phoenix Lights during our quizlast episode and I only got it
right because I copied you.
Travis (20:53):
Yeah, so Kurt Russell, maybe you heard of him.
If you've heard of Kurt russell, it's probably because of the
dexter riley series that disneyproduced.
Right the computer or tennisshoes.
My brain had too many pants, orwhatever I have no idea what
you're talking about.
Josh (21:08):
You've never seen the computer or tennis shoes no, uh,
so this character, dexter rileyis this disney?
Travis (21:13):
yeah, disney back tv show no, it's a movie.
Back in disney's early.
They did a lot of live actionwhich they're getting back into,
but there's this trilogy, theDexter Riley trilogy, and those
included the strongest man inthe world.
He developed a serum that madehim super strong and he enters
into this world's strongest mancompetition.
It's hilarious, kurt Russell,kurt Russell, oh my gosh.
(21:36):
Very young Kurt Russell.
Anyway, a very beautiful humanbeing.
Some of the most piercing blueeyes you'll ever see, if you've
ever, if you've seen the Thing,john Carpenter's the Thing.
That is in contrast to like theatmosphere.
It's a pretty dark movie, eventhough it's shot out in the snow
, but his eyes just sparkle.
Josh (21:55):
Jeez Sounds like not only do you love this man, but you're
in love with him.
Travis (22:00):
Maybe, maybe, a little bit Okay, I guess a little bit
of a celebrity crush.
I think Kurt Russell's a verycool.
I don't like his personalpolitics, but I find him a very
engaging person on screen.
Josh (22:09):
Well, let's let the listeners know how he's involved
.
Travis (22:12):
So he's a pilot too.
So obviously he knows all theflying machines that are out
there your aeroplanes and yourwhirlybirds, your helicopters.
What are some other flyingmachines?
The flying machine Biplanes.
The biplanes, those bicyclesthat you pedal, that have the
wings that flap on the side.
Josh (22:34):
They have like 12 wings.
Travis (22:35):
Brooms.
Kurt Russell knows all aboutthose Yep, so he was actually
flying with his steps on Oscarand Oscar pointed it out and
Kurt wasn't really sure what todo, so he called it in.
He saw these lights.
He's like I don't know whatthey are.
Called it in, which is thecorrect thing to do.
Yeah, right, yeah, you seesomething.
Say something, right.
That's what you always say.
That's what I have tattooed onmy ass, where nobody can see it.
Josh (23:00):
Well, that's why I mean, if they do see it, they need to
say something yeah, I don't wantmy ass hanging out.
It's actually a good place toput it, it is so they're just
out and about flying around.
Travis (23:14):
He's flying his son to see his girlfriend.
His son was a teenager and yeah, they were just on like a very
cool, very rich person typething to be doing, Like let's
just go on the plane and we'llgo and visit your girlfriend.
Josh (23:24):
Yeah, they probably lived on a mountainside.
Travis (23:26):
Just go mountainside to mountainside, yeah yeah, you
don't even have to touch thedisgusting middle part of it.
Okay, so he's flying a privateplane going into Phoenix with
his son.
As they approach Phoenix SkyHarbor Airport, something caught
his eye.
It's set of brilliant lightsand a perfect V formation
hovering over the city.
Russell was puzzled, unable toidentify the lights, so he
contacted air traffic control.
(23:47):
He said do you guys know what'sgoing on here?
The air traffic controllerswere equally baffled.
They had no record of anyaircraft in the area and they
saw nothing unusual on theirradar, which is weird, right,
yeah a lot of historical UAPincidences usually show up on
radar.
Isn't that?
Oh, they do usually show up.
Josh (24:05):
A lot of them do show up on radar, yeah, but this time it
didn't.
Travis (24:07):
This time it did not.
Isn't that convenient?
Russell continued to monitorthe lights as he prepared to
land, describing the formationas both unusual and eerily
beautiful.
Once he landed and shared hisexperience with the authorities,
he pushed the incident out ofhis mind, going on with his life
, never suspecting that he hadwitnessed one of the most
significant UFO sightings of alltime.
Years later, during aninterview in 2017, Kurt Russell
(24:29):
stunned the world by revealinghis involvement.
He shared how, after watching adocumentary on the Phoenix
Lights with his family, he had asudden realization, and that
was that he was that mysteriouspilot who reported the sighting
to air traffic control.
I actually I don't know whatlate night show it was on Maybe
Kimmel.
He was on with his son and theywere talking about it.
Josh (24:49):
Interesting.
I imagine he was super excitedwhen he was watching the
documentary.
Travis (24:52):
He was like I'm part of this.
You know what?
Josh (24:55):
I'm going to say I was the pilot.
Travis (24:57):
That's what you're going to say.
Yeah, how old were you in 97?
I was 10.
You're old enough, yeah, oldenough to cry, old enough to fly
?
That's what you say.
Josh (25:07):
Yeah, I have that right under my tattoo.
You've got a lot of tattoos.
Travis (25:12):
Yeah, we'll have a time to find that out.
My body is a story.
Josh (25:20):
You're like the guy from memento, yeah, where you just
write down all the stuff thathappens to you get tattooed.
But it is wild, that just anormal thing.
You saw something weird.
You didn't make anything of itother than I should probably
call it in, that's that.
And then years later he's likeholy shit, that's what I saw.
Like I would get super giddy.
I'd go on.
Travis (25:35):
Kimmel too, not kimmel 1 no, you go on kimmel, I'll go
on kimmel 2.
Yeah, the new, updated versionon espn 3.
Josh (25:43):
Yeah, so there have been official explanation, and when
we say official, that meansgovernment explanation, right?
Okay, so the us air forceclaims both events are
attributed to militaryactivities.
The v?
V-shaped object, they say, werefive A-10 Warthog jets flying
in formation as part of anOperation Snowbird, a training
(26:05):
program at Davis-Monthan AirForce Base.
The stationary lights, theysaid, were illumination flares
dropped by the A-10 aircraftsduring the training exercise.
Okay, so that is the officialstatement.
Travis (26:17):
I guess you're going to say that that's not official, or
that's not true.
Josh (26:22):
I don't know.
I mean, there's a handful ofthings that don't line up.
So the timing discrepancieswhile the flare drop aligns with
the second wave of sightings,it doesn't explain the V-shaped
objects reported hours earlier.
Flares don't move across astate as well as stick around
for hours.
Eyewitness discrepanciesthere's tons of witnesses,
(26:44):
including the former governor,and they strongly refute the
flare explanation for theV-shaped object, citing its
immense size, silent movementand unique characteristics
unlike any known aircraft.
And then there was no radarconfirmation.
So that's the big one.
If there's planes up there,these guys aren't flying dark.
Travis (27:02):
Yeah, but it was dark out.
It was dark, so they wereflying in the dark.
Josh (27:06):
They were flying in the dark, but they weren't incognito
.
Travis (27:09):
Yeah, are you going to explain what radar is?
Josh (27:11):
Radar.
Travis (27:13):
It's a super easy concept to wrap your mind around
, josh, but you're the biggestexpert on radar, so why don't
you tell us what radar is?
Josh (27:18):
Yeah, so radar is a.
She was an up and coming dancerfrom Australia, and she
competed in the Olympics, wasn'tshe?
Travis (27:27):
She was a break dancer.
Josh (27:29):
She was a break dancer and she hung up her hat.
Travis (27:32):
Yeah, I'm just.
I'm looking it up.
It is this everything you'resaying is backed up on the
Wikipedia page.
Josh (27:38):
Of what radar is Radar yeah, cool, well, I'm glad.
Travis (27:41):
There's a lot of talk about it being like a system for
detecting the presence,direction, distance and speed of
aircraft, ships and otherobjects by sending the pulses of
high frequency electromagneticwaves that are reflected off the
object back to the source.
But a breakdancer is probablythe top one.
Josh (27:54):
Well, I said she hung up her hat and that she was.
She retired the name, sheretired and now she spends most
of her time doing those thingsReflecting Electros Back.
Travis (28:03):
Yep, Okay.
Josh (28:05):
Yeah, radar should be able to pick up things in the air.
I mean it's like sonar,basically right, but with
electromagnet.
Travis (28:11):
Yeah, sonar is underwater.
Josh (28:13):
Underwater.
Travis (28:13):
And it's ear like sonic auditory.
Josh (28:16):
If they were flying, they would be there.
Travis (28:18):
Yes, they should.
I mean should be detectable.
We can get radar, I think at acertain level it isn't picked up
because of a lot of the otherinterference, like birds and
buildings and things like that,so it's harder to detect with
radar.
But at a certain elevation, yes, they should get like a ping
off of that.
So how high was this?
(28:38):
6,000 feet, 6,000.
So easily should have beenpicked up by radar.
Josh (28:43):
Yeah, and there should be flight paths, there should be
documents of their test flightsand their format.
I mean they should all be there, but none of it is.
So not just the radar, but allthese other things.
There's also a conflict ofinformation, because the
Davis-Monthan Air Force Baseinitially denied having any
aircrafts in the air at the timeof the first sighting.
Travis (29:04):
Yeah, but now they're saying it's the A-10 Warthogs.
Josh (29:07):
Yeah.
Travis (29:07):
Which I think have the ability to maintain their
elevation.
They don't have to move forwardor back.
They can, like stop, I think.
Josh (29:15):
I don't.
I mean, only helicopters can dothat I know carriers?
Travis (29:18):
No, there are jets.
Carriers can do that.
Josh (29:21):
Oh, really Mm-hmm Interesting.
I didn't know that.
Travis (29:23):
X-Men's Quinjet that can land straight up and down, so I
know that that is a true thing.
Josh (29:29):
And what was the Agents of SHIELD Uh called uh here?
Travis (29:40):
we go again.
I should know this.
You know, if you were a pilot,I know you would know this
information.
All this information would havebeen given to me.
I know you just absorb it.
Josh (29:43):
Well, let's keep moving on yeah, let's keep moving on so
today, yeah, over 25 years later, the phoenix lights still
remain an unsolved mystery.
Were they classified militaryexperiments, or extraterrestrial
visitors, or something elseentirely?
We don't know.
But the thousands who witnessedthe events are certain of one
thing, and that's that they sawsomething real.
Travis (30:07):
And now they're one degree of separation away from
Kurt Russell, because they allshare this experience together.
Josh (30:12):
Yeah, I guess they just automatically know him.
Travis (30:15):
Yeah, they get a Christmas card from him every
year.
Yeah, 600 Christmas cards.
Josh (30:21):
So I'm I'm going to uncover this whole thing right
now and just let everyone knowthat aliens are mic drop that
that that aliens, that aliens?
Travis (30:33):
oh okay, I did not understand what you were trying
to communicate to me.
I'm just saying when it comesto you think okay, so are we
getting into our like finaljudgment?
Josh (30:43):
we are okay, when we go over everything that's happened
in the story, there's no way itwas a military, anything in my
mind.
So is it aliens?
Yes, no, or maybe it's a yesfor me.
Okay with how long they werethere, with how many people saw
it, with the discrepancies thatthe official statement had from
(31:04):
the military.
I mean, when the military doestraining stuff like that, it's
organized.
People would know about it, butno one knowing what was going
on, even in the highest officesin the state, and they couldn't
get very much information aboutit either.
I mean, I don't know why themilitary would be like, yep,
that was us covering it up, butthere was something phenomenal
(31:24):
and unexplained that happenedand I would definitely say that
it was aliens.
Travis (31:31):
Okay, well, surprising, nobody.
Nobody.
I'm gonna go in the maybebecause it's a mass sighting and
discrepancies are all over theplace with the witness accounts.
I think it very likely could bea military plane.
I'm not I'm not of the thinkingthat this has to be
definitively an alien ship.
I think that people see thingsand they misremember things, and
(31:52):
even my boy, kurt russell, whodidn't speak up about it until
years later, could have justbeen misremembering something
but also like, if it is aliens,why isn't this a more talked
about incident?
Because the government keepsputting a blanket on it, I know,
but I think that's just a veryconvenient answer.
You could say, like we don havea better underwater technology
(32:14):
because the government.
Everything can be blamed on thegovernment, and I don't think
that that's necessarily true.
Josh (32:19):
But if it is, you'd feel real dumb, huh.
Travis (32:22):
I would feel like a complete idiot.
Legally, I am a moron.
Josh (32:25):
You're projecting your lack of memory onto the
eyewitnesses.
Travis (32:30):
I'm not projecting my lack of memory.
I think I've got a pretty okaymemory.
I think it fair.
What are you doing?
Why are you attacking mepersonally?
What is going on here?
No, I think that memory is afaulty thing and it's not to be
taken as the only accounting ofsomething.
We have some really grainyfootage from Dr Katai and I
(32:53):
think that's great, but to meit's not definitive.
It just looks like lights inthe sky and that's just me with
my dumb eyes looking at anobject on a screen.
What would be definitive to you?
What do you want, government?
And I want something that's notsuper grainy.
I mean, what we're talkingabout right now is like these
(33:14):
Bigfoot sightings, where they'regrainy and it's Bigfoot from a
distance and people are insaneabout it.
I want something that is veryclear.
You want the government to tellyou that it's real, not just the
government, but I want theimages to be clear and not
editorialized by witnessessaying that this has to be
aliens, because it's somethingthat they can't define or maybe
(33:34):
something they haven't seenbefore.
Josh (33:36):
You need aliens in and around your mouth for you to
believe.
I get it.
Yeah, I get it.
You love fantasy.
Travis (33:47):
I mean, this is a mass citing.
It's a side effect of humanlanguage.
Where we're not all the same,our brains aren't the same.
So you and I could seesomething.
We would use different words todescribe what we saw.
Like we were to describe a carwreck.
You might say a car when it wasa truck.
We all know that some peoplejust refer to vehicles as cars.
Josh (34:07):
I refer to all vehicles as vans.
Travis (34:09):
Vans Okay, so we saw a van crash, but it was actually
like a Honda Civic.
Josh (34:13):
But these are smart people , I mean it's police officers,
the governor.
Travis (34:17):
You assume that we don't know?
Josh (34:18):
that those people are smart.
Travis (34:19):
Doctors, truck drivers oh, some of the smartest people
on planet Earth.
They know every land vehicle.
Josh (34:26):
Yeah, so yours is a maybe.
I'm okay with that.
I can live with that.
I can live with that.
It's a mid.
Travis (34:30):
maybe it goes between high and low, but it's a
definite maybe.
It's a definite maybe for medog.
Josh (34:36):
Okay.
Travis (34:37):
Not going to Hollywood with this one.
Josh (34:39):
Okay, well, I respect your opinion.
Travis (34:42):
I respect your opinion too.
Josh (34:43):
I'm eager for you to learn more, and I'm eager to learn
more myself, because I'mlearning along with you.
I feel like once we get to apoint, we'll have so much
information that it's going tobe hard to deny.
That's what I forecast.
Travis (34:59):
For you and for me?
Or are you withholding someinformation from me and waiting
for that shoe to drop?
Josh (35:04):
I feel like I'm already there.
I'm forecasting that for you.
I mean, we've only done 10episodes.
There's some of the bigger ones, but there's tons and tons of
stuff out there and we're stilllearning more every year.
Yeah, so with that, oh fuck,our next thing that we're going
to learn.
Travis (35:21):
What the fuck is this Hollow moon theory?
Josh (35:25):
Is the hollow moon theory.
I have no idea what this is.
Travis (35:30):
Oh, this sounds insane.
Josh (35:33):
So I was talking to our researcher, Jordan.
She said that she is slowlygoing to introduce us to things
that are a little more strange.
Travis (35:43):
I don't know if this is it.
This sounds cuckoo bananas.
Josh (35:47):
There's a lot of crazy things out there and she didn't
want to scare us right off thebat.
Travis (35:53):
No, that's fine, that's uh, that's how you cook a frog
or a lobster, right, because youput them in water and then you
just slowly start to turn up theheat and before they know it,
they're already cooked.
Yeah, that's kind of thisexperience slowly introducing
these weird things to us, andthen suddenly I'm gonna be like
that meme of charlie day andit's always sunny with all the
(36:15):
strings connecting.
Just a wild look on my face andprobably a bunch of paint
dripping out of my mouth okay,so I know nothing about this.
Josh (36:24):
Have you heard?
Of anything I've heard of it Iimagine, I mean just off, the
people are thinking, potentiallythe moon is hollow, which is
fun.
Okay, well, let's get into thisFirst question.
What is the hollow moon theory?
Is it a theory that one ofMars's moons was once a space
(36:44):
aquifer?
Is it a theory that one ofJupiter's moons is a spaceport,
earth's moon is entirely hollow,or one of mars's moons is an
abandoned spacecraft?
I mean, I'm just gonna go withthe obvious, yeah, same and say
the space aquifer oh, that theearth's moon is entirely hollow.
(37:06):
I mean, all of these soundreally interesting.
There might be a theory foreach one of these, so is that
what you're saying too?
Travis (37:13):
I don't see any other choice, although I do like the
idea.
I don't think.
Does mars have a moon?
Josh (37:19):
I don't know, I don't think, so I'm not a moon
scientist yeah, I'm not a moondoctor either so next question
which apollo mission is mostclosely associated with the
hollow moon theory?
So is it Apollo 11, Apollo 12,Apollo 13, or Apollo 17?
Travis (37:36):
So Apollo 13,.
That was the Ron Howard movie,so I'm going to rule that one
out.
I'm going to say Apollo 17,just going with my gut but I'm
probably wrong and I'm probablygoing to get dragged through the
coals.
Josh (37:49):
I don't know much about any of the Apollo missions, so
I'm going to say apollo 11 Ithink you're wrong okay, next
question what is the main pieceof evidence cited by proponents
of the hollow moon theory?
The presence of artificialstructures on the moon's surface
?
The unusual composition oflunar dust?
The moon's low density comparedto earth?
(38:12):
Or the moon rings like a bell?
Travis (38:17):
what does that mean?
Like you just get a big, uh bigmallet and it can hit the side
of the moon and it goes bong.
Yeah, maybe if it's hollow, I'mgonna say the moon's low
density compared to earth thatwould be my guess yeah, I mean,
I think that's mine too, justdeducing yeah, because you're
this pretty dense and we've got,you know, the all the layers
(38:39):
yeah, and it doesn't dong itdoesn't dong josh and I just
shared a very weird look we wereboth thinking that penis right.
Josh (38:52):
Yeah, we were both thinking of a sex joke.
Yeah, we were coming up withsomething.
Travis (38:56):
Yeah, like you know who does dong, though this guy who
has two thumbs and dongs all day, all night long.
Josh (39:03):
This guy okay, next question according to the
spaceship moon hypothesishypothesis, who created the moon
?
Humans from the future?
The reptilians?
The anunnaki?
What is that?
Or an unknown aliencivilization?
Oh my god, I'm torn betweenhumans from the future this is a
(39:25):
.
Travis (39:25):
This is a thing.
This is really stressing me outor the anunnaki okay, I'm just
gonna say generic, unknown aliencivilization I'm gonna say the
anarchy okay, I don't know whatthat is well, maybe we'll do an
episode on that next question.
Josh (39:39):
Fuck, I'm stressed out about this.
Which of the following claimsabout the moon's crater is cited
as evidence for the hollow moontheory?
The craters contain evidence ofmining.
The craters absorb objects likea sponge.
The craters have a uniformdepth regardless of impact size.
The craters emit strange lightsand magnetic anomalies.
Travis (40:00):
I don't think they have uniform depth.
I think that there are.
Yeah, they all have differentdepths, different depths, and
they have some that are muchdeeper than others, so I'm going
to rule that one out.
Evidence of mining yeah, that'swhen there are like a bunch of
pickaxes around and some dwarves.
Josh (40:14):
I mean that one's creepy.
The strange lights is creepy.
All of these are creepy.
Travis (40:19):
I'm going to say B Craters absorb objects like a
sponge.
Josh (40:23):
I was thinking that, but it's so weird.
This whole theory is weird,it's true, I'm going to say
evidence of mining.
I'm going to say evidence ofmining.
Okay, all right.
Well, let's see how we do.
Travis (40:34):
Oh wow, I did much better than I thought I was
going to do.
Josh (40:40):
I did real bad, did you?
Travis (40:42):
Yeah, tables have turned .
Josh (40:44):
What is the hollow moon theory?
We both got that right, themoon being hollow, right.
Travis (40:49):
Easy.
Which Apollo mission is mostclosely associated with the
hollow moon theory.
I knew 17 was like an importantone, 11 was an important one.
Josh (40:58):
13 immortalized the answer is 12, so I said 11.
You said what?
17?
17, okay, so we both got thatwrong.
Yeah, what is the main piece ofevidence cited by proponents of
the hollow moon theory?
We both said, oh my god, themoon's low density compared to
earth.
The answer is the moon ringslike a bell.
(41:20):
Who?
Travis (41:21):
is how, how, how, how does it ring like a bell?
How do we know that like issomeone just up there with a
little hammer hitting it yeah,we've been there.
But that's what people are justhitting the moon with their
hammer and saying like it soundshollow.
So we've got a cave system here.
Josh (41:39):
Yeah.
Travis (41:39):
If you stand on top of those caves and you hit the top
of that with a hammer, does thatring?
Josh (41:44):
What if it makes a sound when the aircraft or the
spaceship lands?
That'd be weird.
Well, I'm curious to learn moreabout that.
Okay, so next one.
According to the spaceship moonhypothesis, who created the
moon?
I said the Anunnaki, you saidan unknown alien civilization.
Travis (42:01):
Yes.
Josh (42:02):
That is correct.
Unknown alien civilization.
Dang it.
Okay, fine, I'll give it to youOnly because you got it right
though I don't believe this nextone.
Travis (42:12):
That can't be right.
Josh (42:13):
So last question which of the following claims about the
moon's crater is cited asevidence for the hollow moon
theory?
And the answer is the cratershave a uniform depth regardless
of impact size.
That's interesting and thatcould explain everything.
Travis (42:29):
I mean no, no, explain everything now.
Yeah, everything's a big word.
Josh (42:35):
No matter what hits it, it stops at the metal plate
underneath.
But that's not true.
Travis (42:40):
There are craters up there of varying depth.
Josh (42:42):
I guess not.
Maybe we just assumed.
Travis (42:45):
No no.
Josh (42:46):
Maybe they're not varying depths, but it's just varying
widths and sizes.
Travis (42:50):
No, I don't believe that for a second.
Josh (42:52):
Well, I am excited to find out all about this, because
this is fascinating yeah.
Travis (42:57):
Well, what a rip roaring roller coaster ride of a trivia
section that was.
Josh (43:02):
Yeah, get a hold of us if you want.
Travis (43:07):
If you don't, don't, yep .
If you don't want to get a holdof us, don't do it.
Yeah, don't.
Nobody is making you do that.
Nobody's going to make you getahold of us.
If you don't want to do it,just tell that person that is
telling you.
Unless it's us, get ahold of us.
We would love your feedback,but if it's not us telling you
to get ahold of us, don't worryabout it.
Go on about your business.
Josh (43:27):
You don't have to write to us.
If you are liking the show, letus know by getting a hold of us
or leaving a comment or tellingyour friends, because that way
we can grow and get thisinformation out to more people.
Travis (43:39):
Sure, I feel like this would be a really good
introduction to aliens sure asan introduction for me, me too
but yeah, thanks for listeningyeah, hit us with your famous
catchphrase, josh, that thingthat you say at the end of every
podcast sleep soundly into thenight, my sweet good night.
Josh (43:56):
Good night, sweet prince yeah, so keep discovering oh my
god, I don't know, I don't knowI wasn't prepared for you to
call me out like that.
If you didn't call me out, Iwould have had one.
You had one, like threeepisodes ago.
I've had a couple.
I think I had one the veryfirst one.
Travis (44:11):
I think it's different every time.
That's what's funny about it.
Josh (44:14):
But yeah, don't uh sleep on your back if you're a baby if
you're well yeah all right.
Travis (44:21):
Thanks for listening, guys.
Actually, I think it's don'tsleep on your tummy bye.
Thank you.
Popular Podcasts
Cold Case Files: Miami
Joyce Sapp, 76; Bryan Herrera, 16; and Laurance Webb, 32—three Miami residents whose lives were stolen in brutal, unsolved homicides. Cold Case Files: Miami follows award‑winning radio host and City of Miami Police reserve officer Enrique Santos as he partners with the department’s Cold Case Homicide Unit, determined family members, and the advocates who spend their lives fighting for justice for the victims who can no longer fight for themselves.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.