Healing Shame, Reclaiming Pleasure, and Living Unapologetically with Annalie Howling

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This episode is one of the most raw, riveting, and liberating conversations I’ve ever had. I sit down with performance coach, trauma therapist, and author of Unapologetic, Annalie Howling, to remind us we’re not alone in the shame stories we carry, and the powerful process of setting them down for good.

We talk about the difference between shame and guilt, the trauma responses that keep us stuck, and symptoms you might be living with caused by the shame you’re holding in your body. Annalie shares her deeply personal journey through self-harm, divorce, reclaiming her sensuality, and ultimately becoming the most unapologetic version of herself.

If you’ve ever felt like you had to shrink, hide, or apologize for who you are—this episode is your permission slip to take your power back.

HIGHLIGHTS

• Annalie’s journey from self harm to radical self-compassion.
• The key to healing from traumatic experiences.
• The difference between guilt and shame.
• 5 trauma responses (two common ones you may not realize you’re doing.)
• Ways to reclaim your power after trauma.
• Tips for navigating relationships (and even break ups.)
• The difference between sensuality and sexuality. 

RESOURCES + LINKS

Get your copy of Annalie’s book Unapologetic HERE!

Join The Shift Immersive! Text the word "waitlist" 602-428-7221.

Check out upcoming retreats + more: chrissymay.com

Watch & Subscribe on YouTube!

FOLLOW

Chrissy May: @thechrissymay

Annalie Howling: @annaliehowling

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https://a.co/d/63r93l6

Connect with Chrissy:

YouTube: @ChrissyMayAligned
Instagram: @theChrissyMay
Website for more information: ChrissyMay.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
It was one of those things where I'm like whoa.

Speaker 2 (00:02):
Anna Lee.
It's my favorite writing in thebook.
There is a cure for shameAbsolutely, and it is
self-compassion.
When you can get hold of that,that's when all these other
incredible books breath work,somatic therapy, meditation,
anything.
When you can get that shame out, life is completely different.

(00:23):
You know, more often than notI'm the person that hears
something for the first time in40, 50, 60 years and the second
it's out.
It's out the first exercise.
You're both completely naked,but you're in a room where
everyone's completely naked andit's about sort of erogenous
zones and touch.
This has just opened upPandora's box and she's kinky as

(00:44):
hell, like this is just amazing.

Speaker 1 (00:46):
You are listening to the Aligned and Alive podcast
with Chrissy May, where wediscuss the various aspects of
spirituality and wellness.
A place where you can findguidance and a space to explore
your life's meaning and purpose,allowing you to become
connected, aligned and feelingfully alive.

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information and to schedule yourcall.

(02:40):
Now back to the show.
This was the best episode Ihave ever done, and we are in
downtown Franklin so you mayhear some street noise, an
ambulance or two but my guest,annalie, and I were so locked in
in conversation that we justkept going.
So make sure you listen to theend, because this episode was

(03:00):
pure fire.
Welcome back to another episodeof Aligned and Alive.
And we are still here in ourpodcast tour in Franklin,
tennessee, and I am so excitedto share with you a guest that I
have just fallen in love withyears ago, and she's a woman I
wish I would have had in mycorner 15 years ago, because it
would have saved me a whole lotof heartbreak.

(03:21):
If you are going through aseason of life that is really
heavy, if you're experiencingany sort of shame or guilt or
limiting belief, or maybe you'rejust tired of being a good girl
or people pleaser, then thisepisode is for you.
Get ready to meet a woman whois unapologetically powerful,
deeply transformative and on amission to help us unshackle the

(03:44):
shame that's been holding usback.
She's a world-class performancecoach, sought-after speaker and
the fierce grounded forcebehind her brand new book
Unapologetic.
Unshackle your shame.
Reclaim your power.
With over 20 years of experiencecoaching elite leaders,
athletes and ex-special forces,she is known for helping high

(04:04):
performers move through majorlife transitions and break free
from limiting beliefs.
In her powerful new book, shegives shame a voice and guides
us back to the parts ofourselves we thought were lost.
Her work is raw, real anddeeply needed.
She is the only EMDR certifiedglobal practitioner with a

(04:27):
corporate background, uniquelyblending neuroscience and
leadership.
She's a disruptor, a healer anda voice we all need in our
corner.
It's an absolute honor towelcome a woman who embodies
strength, depth and radicaltruth.
Please welcome theextraordinary Annalee Howling.

Speaker 2 (04:49):
Oh, thank you.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
What an introduction, well-deserved, by the way.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Thank you so.

Speaker 1 (04:54):
I just got done with this masterpiece.
Now this is for those thataren't watching this.
This is her manuscript and itwas I mean, if you open the
pages, you'll see tears.
On certain pages, you'll seemakeup smeared, like I mean, if
you open the pages, you'll seetears.
On certain pages, you'll seemakeup smeared Like I really dug
deep into it.
Thank you, so, thank you somuch for sharing this.
It's not just a story To me,it's so vulnerable.

(05:14):
Like the stories, the journeyyou share.
That's where a lot of I justfelt myself in so much of it,
and I know that so many otherswill too.
I just felt myself in so muchof it, and I know that so many
others will too, and it's justrefreshing to finally hear, I
think, a take on a journey thatis, I would put it, as riveting.

Speaker 2 (05:36):
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
what I mean.
It's not just this.
I'm going through a toughseason of life.
I went through divorce and blah, blah, blah.
Right, and I'm going toactually read, if you don't mind
, a piece of it later in thisepisode.
But there's a point under theheading, the mask that you talk
about your experience.
You're in the shower.

(05:56):
That's when I started crying.
I just wish I could have goneback to younger Annalie and just
given you a hug.
It was just beautiful to share.
So thank you so much.
And it's obvious like there'sthis undeniable presence that
you carry, that you literallyhave claimed every part of your
being right now, and I know ithasn't always been that way.
So if you could just take usback to the beginning the

(06:18):
journey, before you finally saidI'm done playing small and
living this way and I'm justgoing to reclaim my power.
So what did that look like?
Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
I'm really I just and living this way and I'm just
going to reclaim my power.
So what did that look like?
Thank you so much.
I'm really.
I just really want to you've.
You've made my year by sayingthat it's it was so, something
that's going to just sort ofpull people in and help them,
because that's that's what Iwanted to happen.
I wanted to make a book that wasit's difficult, I mean it's a
difficult read.
I think you mentioned that it'slike it a book that was it's

(06:49):
difficult.
I mean it's a difficult read.
I think you mentioned that it'slike it's not easy to read.
But I wanted to createsomething where all of the
pieces in there it's not oneperson's story, but it's all of
our stories, and that has just,honestly, that's my entire
purpose.
So you've just made my year.
Thank you, um, but yeah, lifewas very different.
I talk, uh, now about havingtwo lives and I really believe
that, like I turned 44 in acouple of months and right now I
really feel like my life isbeginning Like I have a

(07:10):
shameless life.
I truly have no shame, but Ihad a very, very shameful
existence for years, and so whatdid that look like?
I mean, I talk about it openingthe book and I think we'll get
to the unmasked.
But it was self-harming.
It was feeling completely lostisn't even a term that covers it

(07:32):
just numb and like is this it?
And then accepting that is itand almost trying to put parts
of me away in boxes in acupboard and bolt the door and
go well, that's the end of thatand those are things you just
can't have.
You know you're lucky andyou've got to make do and it's
not even settling.
It's almost just trying to,like I say, put pieces of you

(07:53):
away and feel like you can'tpossibly not even have it all,
but just have you.
You feel like you can't beyourself.
There's, um, this I wrote anewsletter not so long ago.
I had had a very strangeinterview with a company that
wanted to work with me and theywere like oh, we love you,
you're great, but you've got tochange this, this, this, this,
this and this.
And I was like all right, so Ican be myself, but not like that

(08:14):
.
And that was kind of how mylife felt.
And I it was on the back ofchildhood trauma, um, my
marriage failing and just this.
Honestly, I was in so much painthat I had become so numb in so
many areas.
It wasn't so much a call toarms at that time, it was a I

(08:36):
simply cannot be in this anymore.
I can't.
This is just too agonizing.
And actually the the pivots andthe changes, which is what I
hope I've captured in that book.
I mean with the book is I'vewritten what I needed in that
time and I went on this hugejourney of trying at the point
my marriage was really imploding, my self-harm was the most
active form of addiction, it'sOCD, it was most active form of

(08:59):
that at that time and variousother parts of my life and I
went on this journey of tryingto reclaim anything that may
save my marriage.
That was the sole aim of what Ihad started to do and during
that process what actuallyhappened was spoiler alert.
I'm divorced but like I didn'tmanage to find anything that
would save my marriage.
But I found everything thatsaved myself save myself and the

(09:22):
me that I found.
She was never going back likeinto anything.
And so no one's wrong, no one's.
Me and my ex-husband get onfine.
We co-parent well, didn't makeanybody wrong.
But I, when I found thesepieces of myself and I fully
reclaimed my power, I could notfit in that container of that
relationship.

(09:42):
I couldn't fit in a lot ofrelationships after that
friendships, work situations.

Speaker 1 (09:47):
So for me it was this huge reclamation of self in all
these different parts andthat's what I've tried to put
together in the book and you didit so beautifully, I mean, and
I say that, and so you know, Iknow that's kind of a strange
context to use in some of thethat's kind of a strange context
to use in some of the areas.
But I would love to speak moreon the self-mutilation part of

(10:09):
it Because I found that sofascinating, Because I feel like
, at least in proper right, mostpeople who numb out pick
alcohol, they pick drugs, theypick overeating all of the
typical things that you hear andyou don't hear as much of
cutting or, you know, reallydigging into your skin to
inflict harm.
Was it more so?

(10:30):
Because, as you mentioned, thenumbing was so front and center
that that was the only way tofeel?

Speaker 2 (10:36):
Is that?

Speaker 1 (10:37):
pretty much the census behind that.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
This is, this is going to.
I mean, obviously you've readit and it's in such great detail
in the book and I go into greatdetail about it.
This is going to sound reallystrange.
I didn't feel it.
It was so, yeah, I would quiteliterally come round it felt
like in the shower, look at myhands and be like covered in
blood and go.
Oh no, and just for context,anyone listening or watching I
was picking at my face, I wasclawing at my face and I

(11:07):
realized with my therapist whichyou also would have read I've
waived my own right to anonymity.
I believe this is a world firstand put my therapist has put
her thoughts about me when wefirst met in the book, because I
want people to know that thereis no shame and if you're
struggling with anything at alland you're worried about what
someone may think about you whenyou go and tell them the
shameful, shameful thing, I'veput my files in with my
therapist of what she thought ofme and you know I believe that

(11:30):
is as I say, I've waived my ownright for anonymity as a client
of hers and we both put thatconversation in about that time.
But she helped me to realizethat that was me quite literally
clawing away sort of thisperfect mask that I was trying
to wear and pretend, and theshower was a safe place to me
because I could shut the door.

(11:50):
My daughter was very little,like if my husband was in the
house or something.
It was effectively a silentscream that I was trying to claw
out.
I was trying to claw myself outof this cage but honestly, it
was completely unconscious.
And I read I've read theaudiobook.
It's me reading it, apart fromthe voices of the clients in it
which is a really good friend ofmine, who's an actress in
Britain very famous and when Iwas reading the audiobook there

(12:13):
was a lady that was the producerthat day and when I stopped she
came in and she showed me herarms uh, where she's got tattoos
now and she said never havelike that was the most accurate
representation of where she usedto cut and it was the same
thing, the same feeling.
So, um, this is in no way meglamorizing or excusing.
This is just me explaininghonestly that I didn't feel it I

(12:37):
, and I believe that was becauseI was in so much pain
internally that the what shouldhave been a sharp pain.
Yeah, but I remember.
I remember when I first startedsort of coming into the healing,
I was like if I picked my armin the way I pick my face, it
really hurt.
Yeah, like it really reallyhurt.
But this just became this um,completely sort of it was

(12:58):
escapism, as if I had a massiveglass of vodka or something.
It was an absolute numb outescapism.
And then, like I said, I wouldcome around and be even more
riddled with shame.
So I'm like you've done itagain.
You've done it again.
You promised yourself youwouldn't and you've done it
again.
You're so weak, you're so youknow, you're so stupid, you're
so pathetic.
Um, you can't even do that, youcan't even stop doing that.

(13:20):
You're a therapist, you're acoach, you're working with
people.
How shameful.
And then when I went with mytherapist, she really helped me
to understand that that was acry for help out of the marriage
itself and the scream thatcouldn't come out.
But also it was linked to mychildhood and deep trauma.
But I want to say this foranyone listening, that this
might be resonating I put out areel last we're speaking in

(13:42):
April, and I put out a reel inSeptember and, as you can
imagine, that was really hugefor me and it wasn't a nice one.
It was like the stabby, stabbyneedle one, so like which that's
fine, you know, but it was morethat someone's going to.
It wasn't like a you know roomwith some candles and it was a
bit dark.
It was like a surgical-ishbright, bright, bright light

(14:04):
setting where someone's going tobe really looking at the damage
that.
I did to myself Right and I feltreally vulnerable about it.
So classic me decided to do apost about it.
In the moment I'm walking tothe clinic in London and I just
said, look, I used to do this.
I just want to say it's thefirst time going into this
facial.
I feel really vulnerable aboutit.
Um, the person I'm working withis wonderful.

(14:24):
She's amazing.
Sadaf, she's incredible and shetalked to me about some things
that happened to her and justimmediately felt so comfortable.
She's absolutely unbelievableas a human, has become a really
close friend of mine.
But I just put that post out inthe moment I had and on the
post still so many comments.
I do that.
I thought I was crazy.
I didn't know there was a namefor it.

(14:45):
I burned my legs in the shower.
I pick at the skin on my thighs, I pick at the skin on my arms.
I bite my fingers till theybleed.
I bite my thumbs.
I bite around my hands.
I bite my hands.
There was so I mean there'sstill, there's hundreds of
comments.
What was really interesting isthere was probably the same
amount of dms and most of thedms were men.
I didn't.

(15:06):
Exactly the same things,exactly the same comments.
So I know there are people likeme who felt crazy or didn't
understand what they were doing,or didn't even understand.
I didn't understand it was OCD.
I didn't know it was a form ofOCD, a condition that I had.
I just thought I was insane andweak and I couldn't control
myself and that led into shame'snarrative that I was this

(15:29):
broken person that could neverbe healed or fixed.
And um, none of that, it turnsout, was true.
So that's the reason that I'veput it in there in such detail
is that if someone reads that,even if that's maybe not what
they're doing to themselves, butthey can resonate in some way.
Maybe it is with food, maybeit's with alcohol, maybe it's
with exercise or work, where youget celebrated for your oh,

(15:50):
you're working so hard, oh,they're back there again, but
you're still fundamentallyexiting from parts of your life.
You're still able to numb, evenwith sort of inverted commas
healthy behaviors.
But uh, yeah, there's.
It's funny because obviouslyI'm talking about this quite a
lot at the moment and it's Ifeel sad for that version of me
too, and I I think it's becauseI wasn't able to cry at that

(16:11):
time.
I remember being there, beinglike why can't I get this out
and I was very clearly in sortof fight or flight as well and
that was the release.
That was the way of releasingstress from my system.
It makes total sense.

Speaker 1 (16:23):
I mean right to have that moment, to have some sort
of release of everything you'reholding and bottling up inside.
I'm going to leave it for themto read, because you explained,
you give such a great overview.
So I want to leave the surprise.
I don't want to give too muchof it, but it's.
It's just an incredible, indepth description on what you
were experiencing every singleday, and so take us through.

(16:47):
First and foremost, I wouldlove to clarify can you just
shed some light on thedifference between shame and
versus guilt?
Oh, I'd love to.
I love this question.
Yes, because I think I thinkthat's right.
People kind of think it's.

Speaker 2 (16:58):
Yeah, the same thing, and it's not so really helpful
way of looking at this is shameis a felt sense.
It's always an I am.
So.
I grew up in a very violenthousehold.
My father was very violent, mymother colluded, which meant I
had no safe person, and both ofthem would tell me that I had
made them do it my father do itand my mother would, you know,

(17:19):
kind of support him.
And so I was bad.
I was so bad that I made themdo it.
So my internal belief was I ambad.
And I often give this example.
I've got my young daughter,who's eight, and she's
incredible.
And if I said to you oh, babe,I was speaking to her this
morning, I've got the time zonedifference and I don't think I
was my best self and you know,don't feel great about that,

(17:40):
that's guilty.
If I said to you the samethings, the same context, I said
I am a bad mother.
Oh, I mean, that makes me feelphysically unwell and I'm giving
you an example that I'm makingup that.
Shame, the I am, the so thingsthat I hear in my therapy room.
I am disgusting, I am weak, Iam unlovable, I'm unworthy, I am

(18:02):
not enough, I am helpless, I amhopeless, I'm a failure, I'm a
reject, I'm out of control, I amterrified.
Those are the limiting beliefsthat are stuck really deeply
within our systems.
That's shame.
And shame is like if you dogardening.
It's like this weed that hasgot its roots, that have quite

(18:23):
literally taken these roots inyour system and they're so deep,
they're so deeply entrenchedthat to get hold of them you
really do need to pull the wholeroot out at once, just putting
some weed all on or cutting itoff or digging even a bit and
pulling it out.
It's going to come back if wedon't deal with it.
And another way to look at guilt, which I think is quite helpful
, is guilt can be kind of linkedto anxiety, and the way you can

(18:44):
tell if you're feeling one ofthose is you're not in the
present.
So if your coulda, woulda,shouldering, that's guilt, it's
more past based.
And then, if you'recatastrophizing over the future,
what will happen here?
How can I control this?
How I don't know how to managethat.
That's future facing kind oflike sort of catastrophizing,
and that's more the anxiety thatwe generally associate with.
But both of those, if they'reshowing up, are consistent in

(19:07):
the fact they're robbing you ofyour presence.
But shame is is a differentbeast, and anxiety and guilt the
inner critic tends to act outas more surface level.
Because we don't want our guilton show.
The last thing I want is for youto know that I'm a bad person
and that I harm my face becauseI'm so weak.

(19:28):
That's the last thing I wantyou to see.
So I'm going to be so perfect.
I'm going to be so perfect.
I'm going to be so perfect.
I'm going to be so perfect.
I'm going to be an amazingfriend.
I'm going to overly people,please.
I'm going to try and predictand be anxious and think about
every possibility of what mighthappen and come prepared for
that.
I'm going to go through everypossible scenario, because the
last thing I want is for you tosee my shame, because you will

(19:50):
certainly reject me if you do so.
That shame and I just think wehaven't really got hold of, kind
of what shame is and how muchit controls our lives.
And that's what I wanted to putin this book, because, with all
of my clients and my ownexperience, when you can get
hold of that, that's when allthese other incredible books
breath work, somatic therapy,meditation, anything.

(20:13):
When you can get that shame out, life is completely different.
Like I really am totally free.
We haven't practiced questions.
You know, I don't know whatyou're going to ask me.
I don't know what you're goingto talk about.
There is nothing I will nottalk to you about, not one thing
.
I'm not afraid of a singlething coming up.
There is not one shadow.
But if we were talking sixyears ago, I would have been

(20:33):
talking to you, I would havebeen looking at you and I would
have been inside having acompletely separate narrative,
hoping that we didn't stray nearcertain subjects, probably
wondering what, what?
Maybe people are thinking likereally wishing you're not going
to go somewhere.
Probably would have my nails inmy palms at some point as well,
like kind of white knuckling.
I probably would have given yousome surface level answers as

(20:54):
well, just trying to steer awayfrom certain things.
So that is the difference.
There is nothing inside of menow that I am, uh, unwilling to
share because it's all in thelight, so liberating like, yeah,
it's great.

Speaker 1 (21:09):
How do we get?

Speaker 2 (21:10):
there recommend.
Yeah, let's go again.

Speaker 1 (21:12):
Yeah, I mean, that's what everybody wants.
You know the freedom, thefreedom of choice, the freedom
of you know all the things thatthey don't have to be feel it
like they're going, they'reliving in a cage.
Essentially is what it is rightshame is a cage shame is a cage
.
How?
Where does this start from?
So is there a trauma response?
Um, is it always from childhood?
And I know there's four.

Speaker 2 (21:32):
There's flight fun, freeze and fight flight freeze
most people know, two more floppass out on the spot.
So I always give the examplelittle impala deers.
When you see in africa and theygo, they see a threat and they
like, pass out.
Or sometimes you see the funnyvideos of, like a groom at the
altar and then he goes andpasses out.
That's flop, so you pass out onthe spot.
Fawn is more associated withshame, I think, because most of

(21:56):
us can understand where we'vefawned but we think maybe we
were people pleasing and thenwe're shamed for that.
Oh, why didn't, chrissy, whydidn't you tell that person to
bugger off?
Or that friend of yours keepscoming round?
Or why don't you say no to thatclient friend of yours keeps
coming round, or why don't yousay no to that client?
You know, why aren't youputting in a?
Because quite often insituations where someone is

(22:17):
pushing maybe their agenda onyou or something like that, we
can end up doing what seems likepeople pleasing and actually
we've entered into the foreigntrauma response because we don't
want to get near an actualplace of conflict.
You are a beautiful woman, Ican guarantee.
Now you have been in situationswhere things have turned nasty
or something has switched right,yeah, speaking malanguage, even

(22:39):
just like a recent.
Okay, yeah, I had it as wellwith a taxi driver yesterday
yeah at one point when how arewe gonna fix this?
then and I was like I'll tellyou how we're gonna fix it, I'm
gonna get out and report you soyou never drive anyone else ever
again, like I hope, becausethat was, you know, I don't know
what you mean by that and Idon't want to, and I'm afraid
that I'm a solo female travelerand this is not okay.

(23:00):
But yeah, you know, he wasbeginning to get quite nasty
with me because I find myselfdoing in those situations
Placating.
That is fawning, but we carryshame for that.
I'm just going to triggerwarning this.
I work with a lot of clients youwould have read the story as

(23:20):
well that suffer from sexualassault and abuse.
At some point.
I nearly always hear oh, butit's a grey area.
I had a drink with them first.
We'd previously been on a date.
They're a friend of a friend,something like that is something
they'll say to me and I'm likethere is never a grey area.
Or I hear but why would I kissthem later?

(23:45):
Why did I respond to a messagethe next day?
I'll tell you why.
Because you were fuckingterrified, terrified.
I will tell you why.
And that's why.
When you're in a situation andsomeone comes to sit down,
they're like do you mind if Isit here?
That's in the, that's in thebook, the rhetorical questions
we get as women, do you mind ifI sit here, can I watch this?
And it's like you're often soafraid that you you're like,

(24:07):
okay, yeah, or then you leavesomething like that and then
afterwards, or even whensomeone's rude to you saying, or
they say something, and thenyou get away and you get to your
car and you're like, oh, I'vegot the best answer, I've got
the best comeback now god damnit like I've got the best thing
yeah, I've got the best, butthat's because probably you went
into a and you probably wentinto a freeze in that moment.
And people don't understand thatwe these trauma response

(24:30):
responses are.
They act much quicker than ourconscious thoughts.
So they live in our animalbrain, our amygdala, our limbic
system, and that fires so muchfaster than our cognitive area.
Our prefrontal cortex andlanguage brokers sits just
behind it.
They go offline the moment wefeel remotely afraid they are
gone.
I don't need to know what Ineed to buy from the shops, what
time my flight is on Thursday.

(24:50):
I don't need to know any ofthat.
What I need to do right now isstay alive.
Quite often, fawn is the onethat is going to keep us alive.
Now no one knows that, and theworst bit is that no one knows
they didn't choose it.
They think they did.
Why did I go along with it?
Why didn't I scream?
Why did I say yes to mynarcissistic boss fawning?

(25:13):
Why didn't I tell thatoverbearing friend that I can't
do this thing again, even thoughI'm really burnt out and
feeling really, really unwell?
Why am I putting the kneesabove us?
Because we don't want it to gointo the place that we're going
to have to actually activate orbe in such a place that we're
fully, fully in a traumaresponse.
So the last bastion of thatpeople pleasing because it will

(25:34):
stop the conflict before thingsget nasty yeah I know that all
too well.

Speaker 1 (25:39):
Right, my whole life, yeah, until the last couple
years, which is still.
I recognize it.
Right, I'll look at it okay,okay you know, yeah, try and put
pause absolutely so do you feelthat emDR therapy is the best
route, then, to move throughthis on a physical level?

Speaker 2 (25:55):
For me personally, yes, and that's what I do with
my clients.
I do like a very specificprotocol of EMDR blended with,
like all the years of coachingand other work that I've done.
I won't do it online at themoment.
I haven't found a piece oftechnology that I feel is a good
enough um tool in lieu of me,and also I'm watching someone
the whole time, because thething with trauma is you can

(26:18):
repress things and also you cantie things together, so it could
be two separate events that canbe knitted together with the
same limiting belief that cancome out when you're working
through it.
I know lots of therapists do doit online.
I personally don't, but theother way.
So great news for everyone thatcan't get an EMDR session
because of money or location orsomething like that there is a
cure for shame, absolutely, andit is self-compassion which is

(26:42):
gorgeous, and we can be like oh,amazing, namaste, like well
done.
It's very, very, very hard to beas compassionate for yourself
as it is for someone else.
So you've read my book and youwere crying.
You're probably like you said,you want to give the young
version of me a hug.
Oh yeah, I could hear storiesof yours and feel exactly the
same.
It's quite hard for both of usto give ourselves the same level

(27:03):
of empathy and compassion, theself-compassion it is to give to
another, because there's a partof us it's like, oh but, but
maybe I was a bit this, or, youknow, I can be a little bit
gobby or whatever.
You know, whatever unapologeticyou know.
So maybe you know, maybe thatwas me, maybe I was, you know,
maybe I wasn't clear enough withthe driver yesterday, or you

(27:24):
know, whatever it might be, weare critical as well.
So, that sort of interferes inthe self-compassion piece.
So there is an exercise that Iwant to give to listeners.
Obviously, I do think I standby the book.
I think it's fantastic, but Iwant to sort of offer something
as well to people that arelistening to this.
What you can do is, if you'refinding it hard to offer
compassion to yourself, if it'sa childhood event, if you can

(27:45):
connect to your inner child,replay the event with your inner
child there.
If that's tricky a niece, anephew, a friend's kid you love
your own kids at that age.
I keep a picture of my daughtertwo years ago in my office when
she was seven.
For anyone that's sort oftalking about, something has
happened and they're like, oh,but maybe I should have done
this or maybe I could have donemore.

(28:05):
And I'm like you look at herand you tell me if that happened
to her and we replay all of theelements if she could have have
done something differently.
And then, if we're moving intomore of an adult scenario
perhaps some assault or anaccident or injury or something
like that or a work event putyour best friend in that your
best friend and run the entirething from start to finish and
you tell me if they were up forit or if there was anything they

(28:28):
should have done differently,or if they have any reason to
feel any shame, and the answeris always no.
So that's just a really.
It's a good exercise to put,like I say, one of those um
people in from your own life,rerun it and then, when you can
see clearly that there is noshame, you would only give them
compassion and help.
It helps you to turn that lenson yourself.

Speaker 1 (28:50):
I love that.
So every time that comes up foryou, that's what you're gonna
lean into, every single time,absolutely.
Repetition is going to helpreally push you through out of
that, because we have that.

Speaker 2 (28:59):
We have that little bit, like I say, it's our
self-criticism interferes withour self-compassion and that's
what we have to sort of reallylook at, which is why, using
someone else that you love or,like I say, like a niece, a
nephew, a friend's kid,something like that, and putting
them into that scenario, you'reonly going to have that
compassion and it just gives youanother lens to look at it and
go, wow, there really is nothingI could have done right.

(29:22):
I didn't do anything wrong.
The amount of times I hearpeople say, when we finish the
EMDR session, just go there,really was nothing else I could
have done.
I was only a child.
I was unsafe in that moment.
Not dirty wrong, you know.
It's like I was left and it'syeah, you were.

Speaker 1 (29:39):
Makes me want to cry Just thinking of everything.
So when you move through this,like how what's that next layer
look like?
Because I love that youdescribed that breath work and
all these other modalities doserve a purpose and they're
there for that.
However, this needs to beaddressed first, so you would
have someone focus solely onthis for a period of time, until

(30:00):
what they start feeling freerlike.
How does that feel in the body?
It just starts opening up alittle bit more so for me.

Speaker 2 (30:05):
I don't like to be too prescriptive, because I just
think I'm very aware of likeprivilege and you know whatever
people can manage and do andwhat's going on your life at the
time.
Because you know, for me, wheneverything was blowing up, it
was everything at once and itwas like we have this childhood
game in the uk called buckaroowhen I was growing up and it was
like this ass, literally adonkey, and you put like a sun
hat on it and a saddle and thena bonnet and then it would go

(30:26):
and it would all fly offeverywhere.
And that's how I felt, likethat was my life was like.
If anyone puts the bonnet on me, I'm done.
You know this is all goingeverywhere.
So I just want to be reallymindful and respectful that
quite often, when some you'regoing through this, it's
possible that you're kind ofbeing forced into the healing
pattern.
Maybe you've been betrayed, um,perhaps you're experiencing
loss or grief or something'shappening.
So I just want to put that intothis space as well and not be

(30:48):
too prescriptive.
It really is about looking atwhat's working for you.
But what I would say is, ifsome of these other things help,
but they're maybe not gettingto the root of it and you keep
finding yourself self-sabotaging, for example, you keep finding
yourself trapped by a recurringlimitation.
You are perhaps engaging inbehaviors that you really wish
you weren't and you're findingpatterns in that, or you're

(31:10):
finding yourself in environmentswhere you're unable to maybe
take a stand for yourself.
That's where I'd start lookingat shame.
Okay, so I and I would say,like the shame work is just
something that when you can geta hold of it and that's why I
loved what you said about thatbook I remember that, the worst
point in my life, I was goingthrough chat forums and I had a
bit of a full circle moment lastweek.

(31:31):
Actually there's a one in the UKI think it's probably
everywhere, but it's in the UKcalled mum's net, because my
daughter was really little and Iwas carrying all this shame and
guilt and will she be okay andsingle parent, you know, all
this kind of how fucked up willshe be if I'm, you know, leaving
the marriage and and also otherthings that were happening for
me.
And I was scouring these chatforums just looking for anyone

(31:51):
and anything that sounded a bitlike me and the thing I really
wanted was the happy ever afterat the end, going this happened
to me and I was okay, like thishappened to me and it worked out
fine in the end.
You know, and I I never foundexactly that, but I think I
found maybe enough littlesnippets of stories.
I was like, okay, this person,their kid, is absolutely fine

(32:12):
and this person found love again.
This person was really sad andunhappy and was harming
themselves and they managed toget some help.
And so that's what I wanted todo with this book and with all
these stories is mine and theclient stories that are in there
in the expert interviews isjust show sort of where we've
picked up all of this shame fromand that you can work through
it.
And in the 360 moment I got senta little screenshot and it was

(32:38):
someone saying on the same forumthat some this lady put this
very, very sad story out there.
She's been betrayed, been letdown.
And someone replied and saidfollow annalee, howling.
She and I was like wow, becausethat was what I needed.
That's where I was five yearsago and now, five years later,
someone is telling someone elsein pain to follow me and it will
help them out of it.
And I just thought, my goodness, what.

(32:59):
It just felt like such a all Iever wanted to do is help people
out of pain, and if one thingthat I do or say can help one
person out of pain, I feel likeI've done a really good job.
And that just absolutely filledme with such, uh, divine joy in
that moment that I've obviouslyhelped somebody.

Speaker 1 (33:18):
It felt really good absolutely well, you chose to
have your mess become yourmessage, right and.
I feel like that's where that'sthe really the freeing space
for everyone.
We have that opportunity.
It's just getting ourself tothat next step yeah and so I
would love to talk to you.
In your book, you also shinesome light on breakups.

Speaker 2 (33:35):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
And all those fun stuff.
What would be your advice?
Someone going through a reallyhard time to navigate a breakup
with as much love and compassionas possible, when there's not,
you know, infidelity involvedand all those normal things, but
you just know it's timeSomeone's growing evolution.
You know they're going here andother person's just staying and

(33:58):
not really doing any sort ofreal work to to help salvage the
relationship.

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Yeah, I mean you cannot be in a one sided
relationship.
I think that's the thing.
If I gave a talk this weekendin Austin and I sort of talked
about the weight of one-sidedrelationships and I said, like,
think about it like a house orlike a structure, and if you
were to step away, does it standup for a bit or is it going to
collapse without you?
And the reality is you can't bethe only person putting the

(34:24):
coins in the meter to keep thisthing going.
Like any relationship, romanticfriendship, anything is like a
bank account and life happens,happens, there's losses, there's
difficulties, it's healthissues, you know, but we need to
keep putting those slots in themeat of both people so that
when life happens, we have tomake those withdrawals.
There's like a, you know, abuffer zone, a safety net, but

(34:45):
if it's only one person doingthat all the time, that's going
to go down pretty quick and thenany tiny thing that happens
hurts because you're alwaysliving life in the red,
basically.
So any slight remark, anyslight comment, any, you know
difficulty is just exacerbatedbecause the the health of the
relationship, like therelationship bank account, is

(35:05):
not healthy, and so the one sideof relationships is a really
tough one, but you're going toultimately be able to have all
of your energy back withouthaving to sort of prop up
another.
That's probably taking as well,and so it doesn't need to make
anybody wrong again.
And the other thing I'd say forsomebody is in the breakup at
the moment, it's very, very easya bit like the self-compassion

(35:27):
thing.
It's almost easier and anxietyis a bit alluring in this way to
do the coulda, woulda,shouldering the guilt, like
going over all the things thatcould have been different, and
then you're also mourning thefuture that you didn't get.
So you've got this vision of wewere meant to be moving to this
house and we're going to go onthat holiday and we're doing
that trip to Italy, and whatabout so-and-so's wedding next

(35:49):
year that we've agreed to, so'swedding next year that we've
agreed to, and all of thesethings about you've got to like
kind of grieve, the loss of thevision that you won't be having,
if you like as well.
And I think you need to allowyourself a bit of time for that
and not be too tempted to tryand go into the psycho analyzing
of the other.
The one thing I've learned isthat you simply will never know

(36:10):
what the other person's truth orreality is.
That's that's you know.
Even if they tell you you don'tnecessarily know, they could be
saying something out ofkindness.
They could be saying somethingout of cruelty.
Um, you need to really be ableto find a home for yourself in
the healing, and that is youknow.
What have I learned from thisabout me?
What have I learned from thisabout relationships that suit me

(36:31):
and that I want to take forwardand just really focus in on?
Typically speaking, if arelationship is breaking down,
probably you're not feelinggreat either.
So, you know, where have I lostparts of myself that make me
feel the best when I'm not inrelationship?
And then the other thing is,unless you've been completely
codependent in which casethere's a good piece of learning
in there and you've just goneall in and you only see the

(36:52):
partner you're separating outfrom, you still have
relationships in your life.
You've got friendships, furbabies.
You've got work.
You can nurture your passion,your purpose.
You've got colleagues in thatand peers, family.
Spend some time nurturing those, because they also nurture you
back.
It's not just that.
Yes, you may not be in romanticpartnership right now, but your

(37:16):
life can still be really richin relationship absolutely.

Speaker 1 (37:19):
I love that there's a part of the book you talk about
I'm kind of pivoting here to areally racy part of the book.
That's my favorite bit, like weneed to touch on this yeah,
that's my favorite I?
I mean, okay, I was almost shyreading it.
Does that make sense?
Yes like it was one of thosethings where I'm like whoa, yeah

(37:40):
, annalee it's my.

Speaker 2 (37:42):
It's my favorite writing in the book.
It was so good.

Speaker 1 (37:45):
It's um.
Can you tell us a little bitabout this chapter?
It's on um like sexualityversus sensuality.

Speaker 2 (37:51):
Essentially is what it is so one of the things I
mentioned when I was looking tosave my marriage, I went on a
myriad of missions, if you like,or courses, oh my God,
audiobooks, you name it and areally, really good friend of
mine, nikki.
She runs a number of coursesaround female sexual empowerment
, one of which is called thePower of Pleasure, and she just
had her second baby and she said, would you mind going on this

(38:13):
course?
And I was like, of course not,not just because she, she wasn't
going to be there as one of theco-leaders, I'm a really good
friend of hers kind of a bit ofrepresentation in the room and I
was like, of course, oh,darling, like.
And I and at the time I didn'treally look too much into it
then the uh, then the packinglist came through and it was
like a hand mirror, a blindfold,oh my goodness, like things
that make you feel really.

(38:33):
And I was like, okay, this maybeisn't.
I hadn't really looked.
I was like, right, okay, maybethis is a bit different.
And then you get there and,holy moly, was there something
that, uh, really took me out ofmy comfort zone in all the ways
you know?
We were doing like, can we justcompletely?

Speaker 1 (38:49):
go there.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Yeah, absolutely please, so at one point there's,
it's in there.
There's one point there's uh,we've all been given these yoni
eggs which are either jade orrose quartz.
That the apparently in in the Ithink I'm sure it's chinese um,
in the emperor, sort of in thecourt of the emperor, he would
have all of his courtesans usingthese yoni eggs to make sure,
basically, the king got the bestpussy.

(39:10):
Fair, fair, you, fair, you know, but that was kind of.
But it's also about this kindof alignment for yourself and
honoring yourself.
So at one point we're in thisyoga studio in Covent Garden in
London, obviously you knowsaying cold sober on a Saturday,
and the chapter, as you know,starts with this learning about
sort of touch and sensuality andusing this ostrich feather, and

(39:36):
I've been paired with this ladywhich is all in the book names
have been changed but I'm pairedwith this lady about and the
first exercise.
You're both completely nakedbut you're in a room when
everyone's completely naked andit's about sort of erogenous
zones and touch, and soeverywhere there's a crease.
So your wrist, the inside ofyour, with the back of your knee
, everyone, by the way, like areally, really big one, anywhere
there's a crease is anerogenous zone.
But you're told to go so slowlyand that was just a real.

(39:59):
The whole weekend was amazingand very emotional actually and
I hadn't really, like I say, Ihadn't had much time to think
about it, was going through avery difficult time so I was
just sort of focused on justgetting myself there.
And then, when I was there, Iwas so sort of forced into the
moment.
I'm really in such communityand sisterhood with everyone
else there.
A lot of the women there someof them had been through sexual

(40:20):
assault as well, so strugglingto be with their own body, so
felt really responsible as welltowards the care of one another.
It became such a intimate inevery sense space.
But it was like enteringanother world and that was the
moment for me that I was like Ican never go back.
Like I've always known, I'mquite a sexual woman, but uh, I
think I apologized for mysexuality or I tried to maybe

(40:43):
hide it in some ways or, uh,dilute it a bit or dull it down.
And after that weekend I waslike this is, this has just
opened up Pandora's box andshe's kinky as hell like this
was just amazing it was soincredible but the the big key.
I mean I write about it a lot.

(41:03):
Obviously you've read it.
I go into great detail ofeverything that happened and it
was lots of naked yoni eggingand all sorts of things and
feathers.

Speaker 1 (41:11):
And it was.
I mean, it was off the charts,like there was one part and I'm
trying to find it, but where youwere mentioning how you
literally were sitting in acircle and legs wide open and
looking at each other's vagina,yeah, I mean just right there,
yeah.
And looking at each other'svagina yeah, I mean just right
there, yeah, and just I, just Imean I've never heard of a class
here in the US doing that.

Speaker 2 (41:30):
But I can see we're going to do it in New York.
We're going to do one.
Oh, you're kidding.

Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah, we're going to do one Sign me up, yeah, so I
really feel that that is such awonderful way to get so deeply
connected and not sexuality,which are two way different
totally different.

Speaker 2 (41:45):
So there were two universal truths that came up
that weekend that were everybodyin that room felt they didn't
know how to ask for what theywant, didn't feel empowered,
didn't feel they'd ever had thetime to even think about what
they wanted.
Rather than predicting theneeds of another and meeting all
of them, I say it's a bit likewhack-a-mole, almost like, oh,

(42:07):
let me do all these things foryou first, and then let me be
perfect and make sure my houseis perfect.
I've had a perfect wax, I'vedone all these perfect things so
that I can possibly be perfectenough to maybe allow myself to
have a quick go with somethingyou know, rather than actually
how do I like to be touched andactually what is it that I like
or need and what does work forme and how do I say if that is
no, if that isn't working for me, and I don't want to be

(42:29):
offensive, you know all thesesorts of things.
So that was one thing I don'tknow how to ask what I want and
the other was just being able totake up time and space to
receive anything like a touch,which was just incredible.
It was the most amazingexperience.
And when you switch roles andyou're the person doing it.
You really want that person tohave an amazing experience.

(42:51):
You really do.
You want them to feel connectedto their body, you want them to
feel important and special.
And the biggest learning for mewas that sensuality is soft,
it's slow, it's vulnerable asfuck like.
You cannot like fake and youknow whatever sexuality can be
very um, I'm thinking the rightword.

(43:14):
Right, but also not intimate atall.
Right, it can be really like.
You can be basicallyinvulnerable and be very sexual
and you can completely separateour emotion.
And I'm not saying you knoweveryone, you do you, but like
for me, I'm much more of a.
I am very sexual and for me,being in the safe container of
sort of a relationship withtheir safety to explore further

(43:36):
is like my favorite thing.
So that's in and having fullrange of sensuality and
sexuality available to me andbeing able to communicate around
that is absolutely essential,like I could not live without it
.
It's a huge part of my life.
But that was the biggesttakeaway was wow.
I have been avoidingvulnerability in a lot of areas
of my life and I wasn't awarethat this like well of magic was

(44:00):
really available to me, and soI mean that was me drinking the
kool-aid and then some.
There was no putting me back inany kind of box after that, and
it wasn't just in a sexual andsensual way.
That was in how I dressed, thatwas in how I expressed myself,
that was in how I used my voiceand just really how I think I
learned to embrace a part of methat I always knew was there,

(44:23):
but probably I felt shame about.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Yeah, I, what was I was thinking during this whole
time is it's almost like it's anext um I can't even think of
the word but like ordaining youinto like that next level of
life.
And how was that, after goingthrough this ceremony
specifically?

Speaker 2 (44:40):
I mean, it was kind of like a ceremony, right oh,
completely together and yeah, Imean I write about it in the
book, but I remember it was soconnecting and it was so um,
illuminating and and so unusual,and we're quite a few of us are
still quite well connected now.
I actually had a um, a launch,a press launch my book in march,
and one of the ladies thatattended is quite a famous

(45:01):
journalist in the uk and I gother to interview me.
The first thing she said wascan we tell them how we met?

Speaker 1 (45:05):
and I was like, yeah, on a sex course like, and it
was like tell us about the sexcourse.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Like don't tell us about, like you can't tell back
to the sex course.
You're like it's in the book.
Read the book about the sexcourse.
It's all in there.
It was such an incredible thingbecause it's this I actually
think I love that you use thatordaining, because to me it is
quite.
It's like priestess, like, andthat connection of the deep but
almost like sisterhood, andeverything about it was amazing
like this you know, the incensethat was lit, the music that was

(45:33):
played, everyone was in theiressence and I again I put it in
the book but we wore less andless clothes, not as in, we're
all wearing like matchinglingerie.
I, I, you know, I like to usethat now but this was actually
just becoming more and morenaked in every sense and
everyone got more and more andmore magnetic and more beautiful
.
The less we had on, the morelayers we shed.
But it was like this real sortof sovereignty that's the other

(45:56):
course that nikki runs umsensuality and sovereignty, like
just, you know, reallyreclaiming these parts of
yourself, and in that was a sortof like priest, priestess, you
know essence.
It was absolutely incredible.
But yeah, after that you'relike, yeah, I can't go back I
can't go back.
You can't unsee what you justseen and feel what you felt.

Speaker 1 (46:16):
Yeah, more importantly, I say that after
all my retreats that Ifacilitate, like you just can't
go back to a former way of being, because everyone opens you up
more and more each time yeahthere's.
It's just a beautifulexperience.
So why do you think there's somuch shame around sex in?

Speaker 2 (46:32):
general.
I think it comes from so manyplaces.
I mean, there's cultural,there's religious, there's.
How did your parentscommunicate about it?
So my daughter's at school now.
No shaming to the school, Ilove her school, but there's,
they've just sort of started totalk.
So she turns nine in the summer, she's the end of the school
year and they've just sort ofsaid oh you know, some girls are
going to be going throughchanges, ie periods and I was

(46:53):
like right okay, great, but thatwas about it apparently.
I was like, oh, so what did theteacher say?
I'm thinking about what I mightfill in the gaps on, and she
was like no, that was it notright?
Okay, uh, like so we've got abit of a blank canvas here, like
how do we go about this?
But I just don't know that.
You know, I think people feel abit uncomfortable or awkward.
Sometimes.
There's not the language, uh,yeah, you know how are things
discussed in your family oforigin and then, and then I

(47:16):
think it's the because obviouslyyou would have read it as well
as a big interview with theholistic sex coach in the book.
And I was really intrigued toask him, because he's been in
that field for so long as towhen women come to him in
particular, when do people comeand seek his counsel?
And he said it's always around30.
And women are like there mustbe more than this.
There must be more.

(47:38):
Or am I doing it wrong?
Or am I broken?
Because you know, firstly, thenthere's the whole like orgasm
gap, and if you're not doing itlike this and making this noise
and clicking your fingers andtapping your hands three times,
and you know whatever else.
It is right now choking andgushing and this and that and
the other, like then you're afailure and it's just like.
That is just clickbait.
He says it's clickbait.
I actually was reading anarticle this morning.
There was a talk, I think, inthe UK and it was a surgeon.

(48:02):
He is now seeing injuries frompeople with this choking trend I
know it's crazy, yeah and youknow, and honestly, as a trauma
therapist and just someone thatoperates in that way in that
world and deals with with fearmost days, I actually can't
imagine anything more terrifyingwhen you're supposed to be
being able to receive pleasure.
I mean, here you know, like, Isay no judgment, but in a very

(48:24):
safe environment with someone,and you're fully trusting and
you've discussed boundaries.
First, you know what you'redoing and this is, you know
everything else but a strangerthat you've met on a dating app
that you don't know, who'sprobably physically bigger than
you, in an environment that youdon't understand, and then
you're putting in things likethis.
I mean, I, I would not only notbe getting off on that, I'd be
like get me out of here.

(48:45):
Yeah, exactly.
And then you wonder why youcan't come right like you know
there's like, but this is sowhen, in that, when I spoke to
him about it, it was reallygreat interview and I really
loved that we had thatconversation so openly, because
I think people do have shame andthey think, well, I'm doing it
like the things I've seenthere's porn, obviously, and
there's other things and youknow, I'm trying to perform

(49:06):
effectively in all these ways,but these things are not
happening to me and you're like,well, that's because you're,
maybe that isn't how you like tobe touched, that isn't you know
what's available.
So I love that.
He said that.
It you know, people are comingto him and saying I think either
there must be more or I thinkmore often I think there's
something wrong with me.
Can you help me?
And both times he's likethere's nothing wrong with you.

(49:27):
This industry that's set up onmaking you think it's wrong.
He says that, with regards tosex, you get a lot of like very
click baity, sort of um,supposedly like sex experts and
stuff, and that is almost likefueling this uh narrative as
well.
And then you have theopportunity, if you like, to
test this out on sort of datingapps and things like that, which

(49:48):
is and again, people don't havea source of reference.
Is what he says?
It's not like oh well, you knowthat's, that's clickbaity, I
know that, but here's the realstuff that doesn't exist, like
the source of sort of correcteducation isn't available, so
you haven't got anything tocross-reference it against.
So you're just looking at thisstuff and then maybe when you
are having a sexual experienceearly sexual experiences it's
kind of reenacting the bits thatare out there, you're probably

(50:11):
going to end up thinking thatthere is something wrong with
you.

Speaker 1 (50:13):
Yeah, it's another trauma, like it's another trauma
that's being created now to theanother, another huge layer of
shame.

Speaker 2 (50:20):
And it's so different to pleasure, like it's such
different energy to pleasure.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
It's so sad to think that people are just wandering
around like that in cagesconstantly.
Yeah, when you think about it.
Is there any statistics on that?
As far as how many people are,I guess, working through
specifically shame I'd love to.

Speaker 2 (50:38):
Actually, I don't know that.
I would love to know thatbecause I don't.
I wonder out loud if peopledon't know that, it's shame that
they're working through if youlike because I think you do go.
Oh I'm, I can't orgasm duringsex and it's like.
No, there's like, there's shameunderneath it.
You know it's not often in myworld.
I look at the the shameunderneath it, or rather than
say the the physicality of ityou know, what's happening?

(51:00):
let's look at what's happening.
Shame is obviously this falsesense and it is in your body.
But yeah, I like to look atkind of what's maybe going on
behind the scenes with a lot ofphysical ailments let's talk
more about that.

Speaker 1 (51:10):
What does shame look like in the body physically, if
it's not processed or dealt with.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
So I see, when I'm, when I am processing, I'm doing
emdr with somebody, I see itleave someone's body and it's oh
, it's unbelievable.
It's best part of my job.
Like I, I always say I shouldget paid for anti-aging as well,
because you quite literallyjust see someone go.
Oh, you know, when they havethis big release, it's not just
the weight off their shoulders,it's a huge weight out there.

(51:36):
You know their minds.
But let's just say I do, um,quite a lot of sessions, people
that have lost a loved one, uh,and then maybe end of life care,
uh, you know, sort of hospicecare, as we would say in the uk
and often they've got an issuewith a hand or wrist and it
turns out that was that.
I'm always like, which side ofthe bed were you sat on?
And it's like, usually thathand, um, sometimes I've worked

(51:58):
with people where they've had anyou know, oh, this is really
bad.
And it's like, oh, you were satthis side in a car when you,
you know, something happenedthere, um, and not an accident,
I mean like there was aconversation, an issue.
So it can manifest in variousdifferent ways, but I have seen
it show up and leave the body inall the way it leaves.

(52:19):
The body's often in the sameway, which is it basically just
exits.
I often ask people to umenvision it and just say don't
ever think this.
You know, if it was a shape, itwas a color.
Is it hot, is it cold?
How old is it?
Is it a friend, is it a foe?
You know, and we just get themto sort of um embody what it is.
I don't tell them what it is atthe time spoiler everyone and
then it's like as it's workingthrough the system and they're

(52:40):
like, oh no, it's, it's gotlighter.
Oh no, it's more like a gas now.
Oh no, it's outside of me nowand that's I know, that's their
shame and that's their traumacoming out and then they can no
longer connect to the limitingbelief statement.
It's no longer true for themwhatever it was, and also they
can't connect to the, thefeeling of the shame that's also
outside of their body.

Speaker 1 (52:59):
It literally has expelled outside of them I mean
that's and then that's when theother modalities come in hand
afterwards, or the breath workand tell you what comes in after
and it.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
This is why it's the best part of my job, because the
second that's out, they areflooded, and I mean flooded with
self-compassion.
That's the moment people go andthe bit that they go with is
like and it's just this hugewave of I was just a child,
there was nothing else I couldhave done.
I know that you know they didlove me.

(53:29):
I work with people that theyhaven't been able to have a
picture up of their parent thatpassed for like eight, nine
years, literally, can't have itin the house, haven't been able
to talk to their children aboutit.
One session with me and thenthey're back and they're putting
photos up and cooking a recipefrom their family with their
kids because they were holdingshame and guilt about something,
because they felt they shouldhave been able to do more or and
they weren't able to.
That was the blocker even frombeing able to sort of celebrate

(53:53):
the life of somebody and it'sjust, like I say, the flood of
self-compassion.
And that's what I want forpeople.
I just want people to be ableto have that root of shame
pulled from their system and beable to feel that self-love,
that self-compassion, and gointo their life with that lens,
rather than the alternative,which is the one that shame is

(54:14):
trying to drive them throughright and live life so fully and
free.

Speaker 1 (54:18):
Is there a way that somebody can be I was just
thinking about this processingshame, because you mentioned
they can now haveself-compassion that comes in
and floods in so logically theyrelease that.
They're like oh, I understandnow, so they're living logically
in their mind, but their bodymay still be holding on to any
sort of shame.

Speaker 2 (54:34):
Yeah, okay yeah, I mean, it depends on, obviously,
sort of what it is, how longit's been there, if there's
pieces still remaining I guessremnants yeah, but you know,
really shame, like the highpriestess, brene Brown, said
this.
But you know, shame cannotsurvive if you name it, and with
me I say that you know as longas you're this, the reason I've
written the book in the way thatI have is and again, you saying

(54:57):
this is part of everybody'sstory, is part of our own, if
that gives someone the courageto even say something out loud
to themselves for the first time.
This thing happened to me.
That's the thing that happenedto me and I didn't deserve it.
That's the recurring thought,that's the recurring limiting

(55:18):
belief.
That's the thing that I leastwant someone to know, but is
living here every day, alwaysthreatening me, always
threatening just to pop outpeople.
Some people say to me or how,um, how do people know they've
got shame?
And I'm like people knowthey've got shame.
Let me tell you there's no needfor like you, don't you know
ever.
You might not call it shame,but we are so ashamed of our

(55:39):
shame, we are so deeply ashamedof our shame that we're doing
anything to push it down.
But I know, because you'll seepeople that are literally like
you know, holding it together,and there's this thing just
threatening all the time to comeout like another amazing part
of my job, but most times, andquite often, an interview.
I've never told anyone thisbefore, but you know, and you're
like, wow, it's a real honorfor me and I think part of that

(56:02):
is me being so open with thingsthat have happened to me.
Um, and also the clients coming.
They've booked a session thereand that's kind of a commitment
in itself to be like, right,okay, I'm committing to this
session, so actually I'm goingto share this thing here in this
, in this container.
But people do tend to be awareof the thing that they feel
shame around, maybe not in theexact wording, maybe you can't

(56:23):
put exact words around it, whichis why it's great to work with
the professional, but you canstart exploring that.
You can explore the I am aswell.
You can go like you know, okay,well, I keep thinking about
this thing.
From my childhood.
I've got bits of it.
I'm not entirely sure, and thisis making me.
This is affecting my career orit's affecting my relationship
or it's affecting um, you know,I've always wanted to live
abroad, but I feel like I can'tbecause of this, and you can

(56:44):
start unpacking that and lookingat what the I am is what the
limiting belief is.
That can sort of help look at aroute for shame and then
absolutely use whatever modalitythat you like.
And again, no shame in it.
Like I hate these morningroutines, it makes me really
angry because it's like shamingpeople into perfection.
And then what happens if?
What happens if?
I didn't make the ceremonialmatcha?

(57:06):
I'm fucked for the day.
Like shit, I missed step 10 oflike whatever.
Like I didn't home-make mychild, like granola, you know,
oh no, like it just got.
You know, it's like all of thisis just too much.
And commercialism again, andit's effectively another way of
being shamed before your daystarts Like I hate it.
Whatever works for you, yeah,whatever works for you, please

(57:26):
do it, but have a, you know,read the book, go into some iams
, do the exercise with the childor a friend of yours, place
them in that sink, because thatcan really help get some of it
out and just be prepared to giveyourself the love and the
compassion that you haven't beenable to for this period of time
.
Like you know, more often thannot, I'm the person that hears

(57:48):
something for the first time in40, 50, 60 years and the second
it's out, it's out, that's,that's what you've already let
some steam out of the kettle,you know.
So find a trusted friend and,by the way, you don't have to
tell them everything.
You don't have to go all in allat once.
You can start with.
Actually, I'm not feeling greatin the moment that that is

(58:10):
enough to start the steam comingout.
You know actually, do you knowwhat?
Keep thinking about somethingthat happened a while ago and
I'm a bit confused about it andyou know I'm struggling a bit
right now.
You don't have to give it allup.
You can just take your time andlean into it and absolutely, if
you want to do mirror work, ifthat works for you, just do some
exploring, do art therapy, likegoing outside for a walk,

(58:32):
anything that serves you.
I would encourage any kind ofbody work.
I think it is helpful becauseshame is a felt sense.
It can help to move it through,and my favorite quote, which is
a carl jung, is uh, it's thewise man that keeps his shadow
out in front, so it can nevertake you down from behind, and
that is the whole reason to doyour work on shame beautiful I

(58:55):
want to really help peoplethrough that are really
interested in this work andinterested in unshackling their
shame.
I want every single person toknow not only is it possible,
but to access a shameless life,because I really.
This book is bigger than me,like it's got my name on the
spine, fine, but tiny actuallyon the print book.
I wanted it to be unapologeticand, as you know, in the back of

(59:18):
the book there is a manifestowhere you, you get to sign away
your last apology, as in whereyou you know sorry, not sorry.
I offer here my last apology tomyself, and that's for a time
that you said sorry when youdidn't need to, or a time that
someone else took something fromyou that they shouldn't have
done, or just a time that youwant to offer maybe your inner

(59:39):
child or another version of youan apology that you know someone
else couldn't, and so that'swhat I want people to.
An apology that you know someoneelse couldn't, and so that's
what I want people to.
It's almost like your own kind,of course.
I want it to be like a littlecertificate that you can kind of
sign out as like, yes, likethis is me reclaiming you know,
even one part of myself.
I'm reclaiming it from this.
It's a start.
I love that, do you mind?

(01:00:00):
If I read the manifesto, it'sso good, all right.

Speaker 1 (01:00:04):
We grew up hearing tales where no wild women
prevailed Slut, bitch, whore,witch.
This is no life, please people.
Instead, be a good girl, makeyour bed.
Maybe one day you can be aperfect wife.
Shame made sure we knew ourplace, never took up too much
space, no harm done.

(01:00:24):
And to think you almost won.
I overheard shame one day.
That's how I cleared it away.
How you scolded our souls withthe lies that we are told, Only
winning when we are dimming.
Well, no more.
Shame spoke this to me you mustbe the one to offer apology.
Enough of these lies.
Pull shame's veil from youreyes.

(01:00:45):
Did you feel those bridges burnas you allowed these pages to
turn?
Listen as we rise in unison.
Well, sorry, not sorry.
I am so fucking tired ofhanding you my autonomy.
No more, my friend.
I no longer bend.
So the line below is where Ioffer my last sorry To the only

(01:01:06):
person who deserves this apologyme.
Sign here your name.
I am unapologetic, babe, givingus permission.

Speaker 2 (01:01:20):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Yes, oh, my goodness, thank you so much.
Oh, it's my pleasure.
This is just unbelievable.
I could talk to you for hoursand hours and hours, but I will
actually look into your.
Um new york.
Yeah, we'll do.
We'll get some dates on yeahfor sure.
And then are you doing Ithought I saw online are you
doing a retreat in portugal?

Speaker 2 (01:01:38):
yeah, I do.
I do run a retreat in portugal.
Transform your trauma.
Um had lots of lovely peoplecoming from the states.
I did one in november, didsmaller one in March, just
working on dates for later thisyear.
There's going to be a few moreplaces.
I'm trying to put some stuff onin Asia to try and make sure
we're picking up everybody.
I'd love to do something in theStates.
Someone reach out to me if youwant to do something in the
States.
I'd love a retreat space here.

Speaker 1 (01:01:58):
I would love to do something.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Yeah, let really like to do that.
Um, yeah, I love theopportunity and a bit like you
said with yours, you know people.
We still got all the the groups.
I say you'll make a friend forlife and you do like, because we
just turn up and when you dothe, the shame stories and we do
them early and it's like youjust meet people and you have
conversations as you really areand wow, that's a whole
different way of makingconnection.

Speaker 1 (01:02:23):
It's a great way to connect and be so vulnerable
like that.

Speaker 2 (01:02:25):
And then you don't feel that you're.

Speaker 1 (01:02:27):
I mean, I like to go deeper with few than, yeah, you
know, many.
That's just the way I love tolive my life, too.
Well, we are going to wrap itup with a rapid fire reclamation
round 22 unapologetic questionswith Annalie Howling Are you
ready?
She has no idea what I'm goingto ask her.
I love stuff like this.
All right, let's get going.

(01:02:48):
It's a sassy, soulful lightninground designed to reveal the
wild, witty and wise womanbehind the work.
Okay, so the instructions arejust one gut instinct, or it
could be a short sentence Got itAll right.
One.
What's one word that describes?

Speaker 2 (01:03:10):
your energy right now Mischievous.
What's the most unapologeticthing you've done this year?
Oh, done a lot of stuff.
Probably something with myboyfriend.

Speaker 1 (01:03:15):
You what?
Probably something with myboyfriend.
Oh, I like that A mantra youlive by.

Speaker 2 (01:03:20):
The real voyage of discovery is not in seeing new
landscapes, but in having neweyes.
It's Proust.

Speaker 1 (01:03:29):
Last time you cried, and why?

Speaker 2 (01:03:31):
uh, on saturday, at the end of my talk, because I
was saying something to mydaughter most healing book
besides your own?
Emily nagowski, come as you area song that brings you back to
life uh, it's a house music tuneand it's called favorite game
and it's a raymond mang remix.

Speaker 1 (01:03:53):
I'll have to check it out.
Sexiest thing a woman can do beher unapologetic self something
you no longer toleratedickheads one thing you secretly
love about yourself oh, I likeI'm naughty best decision you

(01:04:17):
ever made in your 30s, oh, in my30s.
Okay, let's put 40s, becausethis is yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
Okay, I'm like I don't want to go back to 30s in
your 40s um, let's, I'd say, I'dsay, going on date three with
my boyfriend, definitelyagreeing to date three is two
years down the line now.
But I was like I don't know, Idon't know.
And then, yeah, you took thedive, yeah first thought when
you wake up I'm annoyinglyoptimistic and grateful, me too.

(01:04:44):
Most soul-shaking lesson you'velearned in love.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Let's just call him the French bastard and leave it
there One thing you would tellyour younger self it will be
okay.
What lights you up faster thananything?
Music Good music.
What breaks your heart?
Anything Music, good music.
What?

Speaker 2 (01:05:07):
breaks your heart open.
Oh my kid, anything that ifshe's sad, if, like I never
thought I'd want to, yeah, Inever thought I'd feel that pain
when something's happened toher.
The body part you've reclaimedthe most, I would say, oh,

(01:05:28):
this's a really tough question.
Let's go with my uh abdomen, Ithink.
I think you get to an age andyou're like, oh, I can't
possibly show that off or wearthis, and I'm like, yeah, do it
all right.

Speaker 1 (01:05:38):
What makes you feel grounded?

Speaker 2 (01:05:41):
I actually often need a bit of help with that so I
can get quite like up in the air.
So I have a lovely, um amazinglady called carly who comes to
my house and does an incrediblemassage and I'm like please put
me back together anon-negotiable in friendship,
honesty.
A fear you've turned into powermy shame, I was afraid of

(01:06:05):
people knowing my shame, and nowit's absolutely my power a word
that makes you cringe, averagethe boldest thing you've ever
said out loud fuck and last onewhat does being unapologetic

(01:06:27):
mean to you in one sentence?
not apologizing for my trueessence and with that, thank you
.

Speaker 1 (01:06:38):
So very much, thank you, and we're going to have all
the, obviously, the links inour show notes.
You guys do not miss this.
I'm telling you right now Iread a lot of books.
I mean, I probably read a goodfive or six books every month
and this is probably one of thebest books I've read, like in
the last 10 years.
Oh, easily.

Speaker 2 (01:06:54):
I've got a copy for you.
Here I can show you the actualhow she actually looks.

Speaker 1 (01:06:57):
Oh, she looks so sexy , by the way.
I did see a copy on yourInstagram stories.
I've got a copy of the sexy,sexy book for you.
Thank you, I didn't expectanything less.
When I saw the black cover, Iwas like, oh yeah, she's leopard
print on the inside as well, ohyeah, of course she is.
Do you know my jacket's leopardprint on the inside?
Yeah, yeah, see, I'm hiding alittle bit.
I'm going to be coming out ofmy hole.
Yes, yeah, thank you so muchThank you, babe.