Heather Vescio (From the Frontlines of Crime to the Footsteps of Faith)

In this episode, we sit down with a former FBI Forensic Examiner who was working on the front lines of the FBI, battling the darkest corners of child exploitation and terrorism. Her work was intense, heartbreaking, and deeply personal. 

Fighting evil took a toll on her soul, but she eventually found restoration and faith in Christ. This is a raw, redemptive conversation about trauma, triumph, and trust in a God who is good.

For more information about Heather and her business, feel free to reach out to her at:  www.cruxintel.com

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Well, hello everybody .
I want to welcome you to Alive.
I have a very special guesttoday.
Her name is Heather and she isa wife, a mother, she is an
entrepreneur, so she has her ownbusiness.
She's very intelligent and funand a lovely person and we're
really going to get into someinteresting things today.

(00:22):
I will say ahead of time thatthere are going to be probably
some subjects that will bedifficult if there are children
around, so you probably want tonot be listening to this in the
car if you have kids in the caror something like that when we
get to those subjects.
So just so you know ahead oftime, but excited to have
Heather Vessio on the show today, so welcome, thank you.

(00:45):
Are you excited?
Are you nervous?
No, I'm not nervous at all.

Speaker 2 (00:49):
Okay good, I don't know, I don't have that in me, I
should sometimes.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
No, I'm glad you don't, Because some people get
really nervous, but you don'tseem like that type who's going
to.
You know we're going to betalking about a lot of cool
stuff, so I thought we couldstart by well, so you go to the
same church where I am.
That's how I met you, but youended up attending here because
of my daughter.
Right, that is correct.

(01:14):
So how did you?

Speaker 2 (01:15):
meet Shauna.
Shauna does my hair.

Speaker 1 (01:19):
So everybody who's watching, right yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:26):
So you met Shauna and you guys.
You were friends for how longbefore you ended up.
We were friendly with eachother during our appointments
and we just got into deeperconversations about our families
and our backgrounds and parentsand siblings and I knew her
before she had any kids at all.
I knew her when she said shedidn't want to have any yes at

(01:47):
all.
I knew her when she said shedidn't want to have any yes,
yeah.
I knew her when she waspregnant with Shep and she was
talking about names for the baby.

Speaker 1 (01:53):
Yeah, yeah, and the kids now are Shepard's three.
So you and you said you told methat you came here, ended up,
she invited you a few times, youended up coming because she
needed somebody.

Speaker 2 (02:04):
Yeah, she texted me and said hey, I don't want to
put the baby in the nursery.
There's a bunch of sick kids inthere.
Can you come and hold the babyduring the service?
And that's all I needed to hear, because I just wanted to hold
the baby.
So that got me to church everySunday.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Everybody would say who is that holding the baby?

Speaker 2 (02:29):
So that got me to church every Sunday, everybody
would say who is that holdingthe baby?
Like literally everybody was.
I'm like it's Shauna's friend,and then people would ask me
hold the baby.

Speaker 1 (02:36):
No, no, shauna says no.
Well, and not to mention thefact that you and your husband
are both very tall.

Speaker 2 (02:41):
Yes, so wherever you are out, yes, yeah, we can't
hide, we can't blend in verywell.

Speaker 1 (02:47):
So you said something to me, not even when we were
talking yesterday, but I thinkone of the first times I talked
to you.
You said that you were reallyexcited about church, but you
had never been that way yourentire life.
So you grew up in church, butyou hadn't been to church in
years and years and years beforeyou came here.

(03:08):
That's correct.
And now you like church.

Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yes, I love it, I look forward to it, and when I'm
traveling and I can't attend,we watch online.
But I miss it, I miss thecommunity, I miss the kids, I
miss being there in the building.

Speaker 1 (03:23):
Yeah, it's an interesting thing We'll get into
that a little bit about how youhad such a big change in your
life.
So let's go back to a littlebit about your early life.
I mean you said that you had agood childhood.

Speaker 2 (03:38):
Yes, I had a wonderful childhood, wonderful
parents.
I'm brought up in church.
I was probably in church thefirst few weeks I was born and
there two or three times a weekmy entire childhood.

Speaker 1 (03:53):
So you were in church your whole life.
You told me a story yesterdayabout having a conversation with
a pastor, that kind of.
After that, that was it.
You were kind of never the same.
How old were you and what wasgoing on 15 or 16.

Speaker 2 (04:12):
And I don't know, I had my first boyfriend.
My parents didn't like it.
I was completely just actingout rebellious 16-year-old.
My curfew would be at 9.
I'd come home at 9.30.
This was long before GPS andLife 360.
They didn't know where I wasand I wasn't doing anything

(04:34):
wrong.
I just didn't want to go homeat 9 o'clock when I was 16.
And anyway, my mom had thepastor of the church come over
and he took me to the back porchand I was alone with him and he
said very inappropriate thingsto me, made accusations that

(04:55):
weren't true, and I told myparents and my mom didn't
believe me and my dad was angrybut didn't really interfere with
it and from that point on Ijust lost all trust in the
church.

Speaker 1 (05:15):
And he didn't do anything that was like of a
sexual nature.

Speaker 2 (05:20):
No, no, no, no.
He was basically saying youhave demons in you because
you're acting this way and youare using drugs and you're
prostituting yourself in orderto pay for the drugs, which, to
this day, I've never used a drugin my life.
I was, you know, 16, never beenkissed Like.

(05:45):
It was completely unbelievable.
It was unbelievable, and so atthat point I just had no trust
with the church at all, andspecifically with him, and I
didn't want to go back.
I had to until I was 18.
And then, at that point, Inever went back until I was in

(06:08):
my 40s.

Speaker 1 (06:08):
So I mean that shows you how important it is to care
like as a pastor you know, tocare for the flock, to care for
the children, because I wastelling you, I was listening to
a podcast a couple of days agothat was somebody was saying
something very similar, verysimilar age, where a pastor went
and prayed and prayed fordemons to come out of someone

(06:31):
and they're like they weren'teven doing anything.
And so they didn't even know andthey left Same thing.
They didn't come back, wascompletely turned off by the
church until they were very muchinto adulthood, so it's very
sad yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
There's nothing worse really than being accused of
doing something that is so farfrom the truth.
And then when you go to explain, that's actually not true, I
know you're lying, yeah, okay,and then at that point, if
you're going to accuse me of it,then I'll do whatever I want to
do.
I'll stop behaving altogether.
I'll stop behaving altogether.
I'll stop following all rules.

(07:07):
I'm not coming home at nine.
I'm going to come home atmidnight.
Did?

Speaker 1 (07:11):
you feel at that point in your life that you had
an actual relationship withJesus?
Had you made a commitment?
Yes, okay, so you had done that, and so what happened then is
you just said the church isn'twhere I want to be because of
this happening.

(07:31):
That occurred.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
Right, and you know, other things happened throughout
teenage years at the church,where I would be compared to
other kids, other girls that Iwent to school with, and we were
all in the same church and theywould have this facade of being
perfect church girls and Idon't have the capacity to have
a facade ever, and so they wouldpretend to be perfect and I

(07:56):
didn't hide anything andtherefore my parents and the
pastor clearly perceived me asbeing a bad Christian.
I guess Not an honest one.
Yeah, not an honest Christian,but a bad Christian.

Speaker 1 (08:17):
So you left.
You graduated high school.
Go to college.
You said you went to OhioWestland or Ohio University
University oh sorry.
High school, go to college.
You said you went to OhioWestland or Ohio University
University oh sorry.
You went to Ohio University,finished your degree, which was
math, science, technology kindof stuff, okay, and not in
church at all.

(08:37):
And then how in the world didyou land at the FBI?

Speaker 2 (08:56):
land at the FBI.
Necessity because I was newlydivorced, with two young babies
just going to school.
I was a stay-at-home mom whenthey were really little and I
had to go to work.
So I was a single mom of twokids my oldest, two who are now
adults and it just kind of fellinto my lap and it was offered

(09:19):
to me right away and wentthrough the six-month process
and I had no roadblocks.
It was just very clearly whereI was supposed to be at the time
.

Speaker 1 (09:30):
So six months process like training and doing
background checks?

Speaker 2 (09:34):
Oh no, it's background checks polygraphs I
mean, they went back to mythird-grade teacher.

Speaker 1 (09:38):
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Yeah, and the irony of what that pastor accused me
of doing.
If any of that were ever true,I would have never gotten my
security clearance.
We had a top secret securityclearance at the FBI.
I would never have gotten that.
It's just like I don't know.
I think about that sometimes.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
Yeah, how wrong he was.
So you get on at the FBI andI'm sure that everything we see
in the movies is exactly the wayit is working at the FBI.
No, no.
So what kind of training?
Did you have training specificto what you were doing?

Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yes, years of training, and the training is
equivalent to several master'sdegrees.
Wow, thousands of hours.
Yeah, no-transcript.

(10:45):
And so for my first two yearsit was just continuous training,
off-site.
We would go all over thecountry for training, okay, yeah
, so what did you do at the FBI?
I handled all cases thatinvolved digital evidence and

(11:11):
90% of all agents about digitalevidence and rules of evidence
and expert testimony, how totalk to a jury, how to find

(11:31):
artifacts just real technicalitems that they need to know
when they're beginning theircareer at the FBI.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
So for, let's say, somebody has no idea what you're
talking about.
You're talking about thingsthat happen when people are
online or when they're usingtheir phones, or what?
How big is this digital?

Speaker 2 (11:48):
world.
Almost every case has it sochild pornography cases,
terrorism cases, white collarcrime, healthcare fraud,
everything so records, textmessages, geolocations,

(12:10):
decrypting data, cryptographyall of that comes into play when
the law enforcement agenciesare building their case, then
you have to provide them withthe evidence to kind of backfill
the allegation.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
So you were in some pretty awful, probably,
situations, because if you're inchild porn, I can't even like
we kind of mean it's.
It's very troubling.
You know, and I, as you know, Ido a little bit of work with

(12:50):
human trafficking and I hadthose cases as well.
Oh, my goodness.
So you, you know, right beforeyou talked about working at the
FBI, you were talking about, youknow, children and how much you
love them and you have your ownchildren, yes, and now you're
working at the FBI and they did.
You know that that's what youwere being hired to do.

(13:11):
I did not.

Speaker 2 (13:12):
And if they told people, nobody would take the
job.
Now my friend and I were ableto have discussions with
leadership at the FBI and to myknowledge they have since
reformed that a bit to wherethey give people a little taste
of what they could be doing.

(13:33):
But I don't think just sayingyou're going to be working child
sex crimes gives you child sexcrimes, gives you proper insight
into exactly what it is.
You're going to be watching it.
You have to lay eyes on it.

Speaker 1 (13:52):
Yeah, Every single image, every single video, so
you have to lay eyes on it,because you're looking for
evidence or images of a humanbeing, or all of the.
Where is it?
Yeah, images of a human beingor all of the where is it?

Speaker 2 (14:05):
Yeah, so how it works is we would have to identify
whether a child is perceived tobe over 12 or under 12.
There's just different rules onthat and put it all together

(14:26):
and send it to NCMEC, which isNational Center for Missing and
Exploited Children, and thenthey would let us know if any of
the hash values matched.
A hash value would mean thatthey have a known victim.
So I have this picture of babyboy and it's the same exact
fingerprint hash value that isidentified and attached to an

(14:46):
actual person.
This person's name is this andthey live here, and so you can
figure out how to identify allthese different elements of
their victimization.
And then also, it's proof thatthe picture that they have is a
real person, because a lot ofpeople would have a defense of

(15:07):
well, that's AI generated orit's not real.
Well, it is real because I knowthat his name is this and I
know that the fingerprints match.
Wow, yeah, and that's why youhave to look at every single.

Speaker 1 (15:19):
It's a very interesting thing and I don't
want to get us off topic.
But the whole AI, I know that'sa whole thing and I don't know
a lot about that when it comesto pornography and child porn,
but that's a whole thing.
I know it doesn't affect thechildren.
Okay, you could say, well,that's good, it's not affecting.

(15:39):
You know they're not doinganything about it, but it's
still doing something to thebrain and to the desire of these
people and these predators.

Speaker 2 (15:47):
It is and it will incite nefarious actions if they
have access to a child asopposed to, that might not be in
their mind otherwise.
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:03):
Like there's something planted in there that
they never had before the seedis planted, yeah, yeah.
So you worked on cases ofpeople who were watching and
people who were creating.
Yes, okay, and people who werecreating.

Speaker 2 (16:20):
Yes, okay, so it would be production cases,
distribution cases.
So take a picture, take a videoand then just sell them.
And then I mean predators tradechild porn like little kids
trade Pokemon cards.
I mean it is, and it's by 10terabytes at a time.

(16:43):
It's not a picture here, apicture there.
It's like I'll trade you this10 terabytes for your 10
terabytes, and then they're veryprotective of their collections
, so they're going to save it infive different places and hide
the thumb drive up inside of asafe and it's very, very hard to
get those images off theinternet once they're there.

(17:05):
It's practically impossible, do?

Speaker 1 (17:08):
you?
Are you online very muchyourself?
Do you like just stay?
I'm not saying I mean, do you?
So?
I just am sitting therethinking about all the people
who are online all the time andit just makes me want to just
like stay off of everything,like I don't even want.
I mean, I know we're onfacebook and do you have any?
Just like social media?
Or are you like, no, I'm not,I'm not on anything no, I'm on

(17:31):
the internet all the time.

Speaker 2 (17:32):
I'm a tech person.

Speaker 1 (17:33):
I have okay, yeah, okay, yeah.
I just get uh, so, um, so, asfar as like that side of things,
because, first of all,pornography in general, I have a
lot of issues with it, not evenchild porn.
I don't know how you feel aboutpornography in general, I just

(17:54):
think it's completely evil.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
I really do.
It destroys relationships, itdestroys families, it destroys
people's minds and the internetwas really propagated and funded
by pornography back when itfirst became popular.
That's why it became popular.
Look it up sometime, it'sreally interesting.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
I will look that up, that's very interesting and they
really do want to keep it allgoing all the time.
What do you think aboutOnlyFans and all of that stuff?

Speaker 2 (18:33):
Once it's up there, you're never getting it down
again.
It's very much appealing foryoung people because they think
that maybe they can make quickmoney.
But it's very much appealingfor young people because they
think that maybe they can makequick money but it's going to
destroy your life.
Yeah, you know, someday you'regoing to be 50 and think I
probably should not have postedthat topless picture of myself

(18:54):
when I was 19.
It's out there now foreverthough.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (19:02):
Have you worked on any really high-profile cases?

Speaker 2 (19:17):
Yes, yes, high-profile terrorism cases I
would know of that would havebeen on the news.
Yes.
And as far as child porn cases,many multinational child porn
rings and the one that isreleased publicly now, operation

(19:41):
Pacifier, operation Playpen, itwas just a national and
international complete takedown.
Several search warrants at thesame time, hundreds and hundreds
and hundreds of terabytes ofdata to go through.
And at that exact moment, mycoworkers that I was working
with in my lab, I had three orfour other people.

(20:03):
They all left for differentreasons and valid reasons, and
it was just me.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
It was just me.
Oh, my goodness.

Speaker 2 (20:13):
And I just wanted out .
So bad, so bad.
And I was just crying every dayin the bathroom and I said I
can't do these cases anymore.
I can't do it.
And I was told, if somethinghappens to you, you'll just be
the blonde girl who used to workon the fourth floor.
Wow, so I was at that point.

(20:37):
I realized I'm not valued atall here.
Wow, I need, I need to get outof here.
And at that point I startedreally looking for a way out and
a different job.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, so Well, I'm going to get to that too,
because I want to talk to youabout, mentally and spiritually,
what it's like in thatenvironment, because in my mind
that's a very demonic kind ofenvironment where you're looking
at these materials all the time.
It's not life-giving at all.

Speaker 2 (21:11):
No, and you're looking at it and very often
it's father-child and it's likethe stolen innocence.
That's the ultimate betrayal.
You have people that you trust,you have a child that trusts
their parents and their parentsare destroying them.
And so often and this ties backto my childhood in church and

(21:32):
the betrayal there so often mysubjects were I had their
computers, computers and theywould have their child porn in a
folder right next to Sundayservice prep notes.
Why?
Because they're a youth pastor?
Why Because they're puttingthemselves in a position where
they're around children?
Why Because they're attractedto children.

(21:53):
So it's like they go to church,they're involved in church,
they're preaching, they'reupstanding citizens.
They are the ones with thefacade that I spoke about
earlier.
They have the facade, they'repretending and all along they
have the secret life.
So again, it's like justcompletely untrustworthy.

(22:14):
I get to the point where,probably eight years into my
career, if I found out somebodywas going to church every Sunday
, or I go to Sunday school or Iteach Sunday school, I'm like,
oh, you're probably a pedophile.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
Wow, I mean, I can see, why you would say that,
yeah, and it was all to hidebehind it.

Speaker 2 (22:36):
I'm an upstanding citizen.
Well, I have two PhDs.
And they want people to say,well, they're a dentist.
They can't do this.
They go to church every Sunday.
They donate so much money tocertain charities.
Yeah, they're building theirfacade to make it more
believable.

(22:56):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 1 (22:59):
What would you say to parents, then, about protecting
their children, rather thanbecause we know that we protect
our kids, but we're not going tobe 100% there with?

Speaker 2 (23:15):
them all the time.
But what advice do you have forparents?
You can't be absent.
You can't send your kid to bedwith an iPad because you don't
want to tell them no, you're nottheir friend, you're their
parent.
You can be their friend becauseyou don't want them to be mad
about something or sad aboutsomething, but then they're
going to end up taking nakedpictures of themselves and
sending it through the Xbox oron their phone and getting hurt.

(23:38):
You have to tell your kids no,you have to be involved in what
they're doing.
Look at their phones.
Don't take their word for it.
Look at what they're doing andlook deeper, because there are
so many free apps that willcovertly hide the ones they're
doing.
It might look like a calculator, but it's not.

(24:00):
It's a chat app and they'redoing it.
Might look like a calculator,right, but it's not.
It's a chat app and they'rechatting with some 60-year-old
man saying that he's a14-year-old girl.

Speaker 1 (24:08):
Is there a place you can send parents to go where
they can say that will tell themwhich apps to look for on their
kids' phones?

Speaker 2 (24:17):
Yeah, I have a company that I created, veritas
Crux, truth of the Cross, and Ican do that for people and look
at their phones.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Okay, what we're going to do in the notes, in the
description box, we'll put yourinformation in there.
Yeah, so if people want toreach out to you, they can.
Yeah, yeah, sure, because Ithink you know, as a grandparent
now it was bad enough, you know, when my kids were younger, but
now it's completely different.
Is this just me?

(24:47):
Or, like on my phone, it lookedlike there was this place that
said because I got a new phone,it said hidden apps, there's
nothing in it because I don'thave anything in there.
Is that where a lot of peoplelook?

Speaker 2 (24:59):
at yeah, you can, but there's clandestine apps that
look innocuous and you can hidewhatever you want in there.
But yeah, on a consent-basedparent bringing their kid's
phone to me, I have softwarethat will decrypt kick app or

(25:21):
WhatsApp conversations and Imean it will find everything in
there and it'll give it.
I can have a readable reportLike this is what's on your
kid's phone, this is what yourkid's doing.

Speaker 1 (25:32):
Whoa, yeah, I think in this day and age, like you
said, you know, I look at itlike this these phones and it's
all addicted, everybody'saddicted to it.

Speaker 2 (25:45):
You know these kids are addicted Scrolling,
scrolling, scrolling, scrollingand they get all these ideas of
maybe I should do this, maybe Ishould do that, and then yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:53):
Yeah, and then when you take it from them and I've
seen this happen with parentsand the kids lose their minds.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Screaming, crying, and the kids lose their minds,
screaming, crying.
Well, they're addicted to it.

Speaker 2 (26:02):
Exactly I was going to say Then just get over it, go
read a book, I don't know, Imean, and I think it's like
because this is a subject thatreally frustrates me.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
But it's like starting, don't wait until,
don't give your kids a phone orsomething like that when they're
so young so young, yeah,because you know what like that
when they're so young, andthey're young because you know
what.
You saw a little, uh, elise,where she's like already she
know how, does she know how todo that, she's watching, she's
watching us watching it, yeah,so she knows, and I'm like, oh
my goodness, so yeah yeah, Imean, it's where our parents

(26:35):
will take away.

Speaker 2 (26:37):
Well, I'm taking your phone away, okay, and then they
give them an iPad, right, okay,well, it's the same thing.
You literally did nothing, yeah.

Speaker 1 (26:46):
And also, parents need to know that when they're
playing Xbox, they're alsocommunicating, there's also
chatting, they can also sendimages, and so, yes, that's one
thing that, see, I didn't knowthat until I've been talking to
people for the past five years,I didn't know it was a
possibility, or that your kidscan be in there playing a game

(27:07):
and you think it's all innocent.
But it's not.
And it's not that they're doingsomething bad, it's that there
are other people who are aroundwho can jump in the conversation
or get online.
These predators are out therewaiting and watching.

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, yeah.
I think a lot of parents thinkwhat makes them good parents is
if they say yes to everythingtheir kid wants.
I think you're right and itmakes you a really bad parent.
Overindulgence is a form ofchild abuse.
Yeah, you're creating theseentitled kids that are going to

(27:43):
grow up to have no ability tofollow any rules or God forbid,
they're told no.

Speaker 1 (27:51):
It's a problem.
They become adults who havetemper tantrums and act out.
It seems to be happening moreand more.
I remember when I was a kid itwas not, I mean, my dad was the
best, he was amazing.
But I remember this is a greatstory he said to me one day I

(28:14):
wanted to go to Kings Islandfrom Ohio.
I wanted to go to Kings Islandbecause my friend was going, my
neighbor, and I was little, Imean 10, 11 years old and my dad
said no, and I said but why?
And it was like on a Saturday.
But we always got up on Sundayand went to church.
I'm sure that had something todo with it, but he didn't give

(28:34):
me a reason.
Like, but why?
And he's like because I said no, I don't want you to go.
And I remember laying on thecouch for like five hours, being
super dramatic, crying, andthen my dad would just be like
he'd just walk by and he'd goand get a glass of tea, come

(28:55):
back.
And there I was, and thenfinally I went I'm wasting my
entire day, you know and then Igot up.
But sometimes the kids are goingto act out and they're going to
be poor me and I'm a martyr andthis and that.
But I say, for me, you got tostart when they're as young as I
mean, start setting boundarieswhen they're young and teaching

(29:18):
them that no means no.
And this is just what childrenneed.
They need these guardrails sothat when they get older they're
going to push back and that'sokay.
But you're the parent, you'rethe parent and you don't want
them getting into those dangers.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
The years between, say, 12 and 15, I think a lot of
parents think well, they're oldenough they can do their own
thing.
Oh, enough, they can do theirown thing.
Oh, they're going to do theirown thing, all right.
Yeah, it's not going to be whatyou want them to be doing.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Yes, so it's funny you say that, because I don't
know how I learned this, but Ialways felt like that age was
almost more important I'm notsaying the most important, but
it seemed like it because wheneverybody else was saying that
my kids are fine, they'restaying home, I was like a crazy

(30:08):
person with like monitoring andbeing present.
As a matter of fact, I reducedmy hours.
That's when I was working atBattelle.
I reduced my hours so that Icould be home more and be home
because I was working, but thenShauna would be there for, you
know, and I was trying to.
There was a period of timewhere she was there for a couple

(30:28):
hours without me, but then Istarted being there more because
I'm like there's stuff that'sgoing on I'm sure that I don't
know about.
Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
And I'm, because of my background, just very much
super like, hyper protective,and I would like to not be that
way.
But I mean my rule with my kids.
You know, when my son wasturning 18 and he was wanting to
be launched on his own, I'llcontinue paying your cell phone
bill, but you need to have yourlocation turned on.

(30:57):
Well, I'm not doing that.
Okay, then you're paying yourown what You're not going to.
Well, I'm not doing that.
Okay, then you're paying yourown what You're not going to.
No, I'm not.
Yeah, and give me the phone.
And I haven't paid a cell phonebill since he turned 18.
Because I'm not doing that.
I'm an adult now.
Okay, adult, go pay for yourown phone Now, chloe, she's 21.

(31:19):
I'm trying to say your name,but she doesn't care, she's 21.
She's in college.
She has her location on, yeah,and she checks my location more
than I check her location.

Speaker 1 (31:31):
It's like when I used to say to the kids when they
would, you know, I want you homeby midnight or whatever, and
then they would be really mad atme, you know, when they're like
still living at home and 18.
And I said it's not about me.
Yes, I want to know you're safe, but it's like also like
respect, that I'm in bed and I'mjust going to lay here awake
until you get home anyway.

Speaker 2 (31:51):
Right and I think that's what my 20-year-old
21-year-old now knows is that Ijust worry.
She's so far away and plus sheis 4.0 biochemistry student.
She's studying 13 hours a dayor crocheting.
She's not getting into anytrouble.

Speaker 1 (32:07):
She's good.

Speaker 2 (32:09):
My only concern was she's going to get kidnapped,
and then I have to know whereshe is.

Speaker 1 (32:14):
It's a lot, isn't?

Speaker 2 (32:15):
it.

Speaker 1 (32:15):
Kids.
You're always once a mom.
You're always a mom.
Yeah, yeah.
So I want to talk to you aboutso you said you were in the FBI
for 10 years.
Yes, and then how you weretalking about how that you had
to just like get out, like youcouldn't take it anymore.
Did it damage you working therementally?

(32:36):
Yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (32:38):
So the sleep was non-existent, because the second
I would fall asleep.
I would have nightmares.
I couldn't go anywhere inpublic where there were children
because a baby crying at acertain pitch would make me

(32:58):
remember very specific videos ofthe baby crying in a certain
pitch, and then I would rememberthe pajamas the baby was
wearing.
I remember I could see thewhole thing and I remember being
in Costco one time and thathappened and the whole building
just started to spin andeverything was just like red and

(33:19):
I thought I was.
I literally thought I was dyingbecause I yeah.

Speaker 1 (33:23):
Was it like?
Is that PTSD?
It's PTSD, yeah yeah, wow.
So I've got a lot of questionsin my mind right now.
I'm thinking about, like, whatit would be like to go through
that, because once you have animage in your mind, it's like
there, you know, like that's whyI think it can be so damaging
to watch certain things, youknow, because, like, our minds

(33:46):
are really powerful.
So you're dealing with thisPTSD.
You have all these things goingon.
Did well, where was God in yourlife at this point?

Speaker 2 (34:04):
Very much abstract, didn't really think of it.
I felt really confused abouthow God could allow these
horrific things to happen tothese innocent children.
And there can't be a God ifthese things are happening,

(34:28):
because how could God let thesethings happen to these babies?

Speaker 1 (34:34):
And then we didn't even and I don't want to go into
too much detail here but wedidn't even talk about.
So you're going through all ofthis.
While working at the FBI, youhave all these emotional scars
or open wounds because you'rewatching all this material, but
then also in your personal lifeit's like a disaster.

Speaker 2 (34:55):
It is.
I was remarried, was remarried,very abusive, had a baby during
that time my youngest son whileworking these cases at the FBI
and I'm having trouble hearingmy own baby crying.

(35:15):
I had no respite there and myex-husband at the time
prohibited me from discussinganything that was bothering me
at work, shamed me for evenattempting to doing so because
how dare I poison his mind.
So I had nobody to talk to.
I had nobody that I couldcommiserate with about what was

(35:42):
happening At work.
I had my best friend, who'sstill there and trudging through
.
I had her and I still do, andit was just horrible.
I mean, there were times that Iwould go in the bathroom at
home because everything I justfelt so numb that I would put

(36:06):
like sewing pins in my handuntil, like, am I still alive?
Like, is this really happeningto me?
Like one of those things whereyou're just almost like an out
of body, like this can't reallybe my life is that why, p, as I
wonder if that's why people cut.

Speaker 1 (36:27):
You know probably something, yeah I've never, I've
never sliced.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
Yeah, I don't.
I guess I didn't think of itthat way.
I just wanted to feel something, yeah, something were you.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
I I've heard that when, sometimes, when people get
really depressed, that they,that they, if they get to the
point where they don't literallydon't feel that, a lot of times
they will.
I don't want to get too graphichere.

Speaker 2 (36:51):
Yeah, but you know?

Speaker 1 (36:53):
Yeah, I mean, I don't know if that's.
I don't know.
Were you depressed, do youthink?

Speaker 2 (36:57):
Absolutely.
I was just stuck.
I was in this abusive marriagewhere I was afraid I didn't know
how to get out of it.
I had nobody to talk to.
It was just a very dark time inmy life, in my life.

(37:27):
And you know, I think back andhad I not lost that relationship
with God, then it would nothave been so um I don't even
know the word just um, you werejust void, void yeah, just like
there was like nothingness there.
Yeah, I feel like several yearsof my life were just a complete
blur.

Speaker 1 (37:48):
You know what's that condition DID dissociative
identity disorder where, likechildren, if they're being
abused, they can go to anotherplace, you know, and it's like a
coping mechanism.
But you really didn't have acoping mechanism because you're
an adult and you maybe just like, did you compartmentalize a

(38:08):
little bit just to get through.

Speaker 2 (38:11):
Yeah, so we saw psychologists at the FBI and it
was a little bit of assessmentto make sure we're still fit for
duty, that basically thematerial didn't mess us up too
bad.
And even though you know we'rehonest and we tell them, they're
like, oh, you're fine to go alittle bit more.
And I remember they said thatmy coping mechanism is humor and

(38:35):
during the time when I had, youknow, my best friend, megan,
with me and then there were acouple other guys in the room
and we all had really wonderfulcamaraderie and just brotherhood
, sisterhood, and we had so muchfun for a very short period of
time Maybe it lasted, maybe ayear and then people just left,

(39:00):
because people leave and they goto different jobs and leaving
that one is very understandableyeah.

Speaker 1 (39:08):
So what happened?
There's so many questions Iwant to ask you, but I want to
get to your rescue.
How did you get to where youare now with God?
It had to start somewhere, likewhat happened to you, where you
finally, like, took a turn.

Speaker 2 (39:30):
Well, April 23rd 2013 , I was at FBI training in the
middle of Oklahoma and I metthis dorky prosecutor who was

(39:54):
very poorly flirting with me andwe trauma bonded.
Essentially, he had the samebackground that I had worked the
same kind of cases and he'snurturing and kind and we were
able to discuss all of thesethings.
You couldn't talk about it withanybody else.

(40:16):
I mean, I'm glad that mostpeople don't know what that is,
because I don't want people tohave the mental affliction of
remembering things or thinkingabout things.
Even just stories you hear isgoing to put something in your
head.
I don't want that.
I don't want that for people.
But with Ryan, who's now myhusband, he didn't have anybody

(40:38):
to talk to about it either.
Yeah, and he didn't have anybodyto talk to about it either.
And so we met and it was justimmediate, just talking.
We talked that first night tillthree in the morning in the
middle of an FBI training centercafeteria.

Speaker 1 (40:55):
Wow, wow, like sitting out there.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Like sitting out there.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
I bet that had to feel sohealing to start that process of
being able to talk to someoneabout it.

Speaker 2 (41:07):
Yeah, I felt uncomfortable at first because
it's like oh, what am I allowedto say?
Is this going to be offensiveto him?
Yeah, but he has a uniqueability to give other people
permission to be themselves andto talk, and I think I have that
as well, and so we just werejust symbiotic with us.

(41:32):
So it's been that way eversince.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
So you talked about seeing a sign at a church, in a
church parking lot or something.
Can you tell us about thatstory?

Speaker 2 (41:44):
Yeah, this was about, say, 2015 or so, really just
deep into the numbness and theanger and not understanding how
these things can happen tochildren and feeling just a lot
of despair.
And earlier, when I said Icouldn't think of a word,

(42:05):
despair is the word and that'show I felt.
That's how I felt.
So I was driving in a blizzardin northern Ohio talking to my
now husband who wasn't myhusband then on the phone, and I
had to pull over because it wasjust a whiteout condition.
So I pulled over into a churchparking lot and looked up and
saw a sign and the scripture onthe sign was surely the goodness

(42:30):
of God will follow me all thedays of my life.
And I thought, wait a second.
I have this wonderful friend andRyan and I have beautiful,
healthy children.
No matter what I've done wrong,I'm still blessed immeasurably.

(42:56):
I'm still alive, because thatcould have easily been different
with all the situations I'vebeen in and I was.
I just had a moment of okay,maybe there's something to that
and I remember telling Ryan andwhen you interview Ryan, which

(43:18):
you should, he'll remember ittoo and I told him because he
was very touched by it and hestarted crying.
I said you make me feel like Ican believe in God again.
Wow yeah.

Speaker 1 (43:30):
Well, which leads me to a question how do you
reconcile in your mind?
Now you know, because that's anamazing thing to say to
somebody but how can you believein God, or how can you think

(43:51):
God is good when, like, why arethere situations that happen in
your mind to children and badthings?
I mean, we kind of touched onit earlier, but we really didn't
get into the why.

Speaker 2 (44:00):
Just as God is real, satan is real.
We live in an evil world really, and if you're not for God,
then you are for Satan.
There's no neutrality with that, and so the bad things happen
because satan's real.

(44:21):
Satan's here and is very muchhere in disguise as good things,
many times to trick people.
You know he's here to what kill, destroy, still kill, kill and
destroy still kill, steal, killand destroy, so um but jesus.

Speaker 1 (44:41):
He said he came to give us life to the full or
abundant life.
That's in that same verse.
So like you can see theopposite right there in that
verse on what Jesus was saying,that there is a battle that's
taking place.
Yeah, I mean, when I thinkabout, like, when you were in
those situations kind of back tothat for a second did you feel

(45:02):
the dark world?
Oh for sure, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:05):
Yeah, for sure.
I've been on search warrantswhere I feel, I felt just
heaviness, yeah, spiritualoppression and darkness.
You know, there's the scripture.
We wrestle not against fleshand blood, but we wrestle
against principalities ofdarkness.

(45:28):
Yeah, that is 100% true.
Of course, I believe the wholeBible is true, but there are
certain scriptures that I know.
I've seen it.
Yeah, and you know, my bestfriend and I have really great
conversations sometimes and sheasked me how can you believe in
God when you've seen the thingsthat we've seen?
And I explained to her the sameway.

(45:50):
But I've also seen the glory ofGod and the goodness of God in
my own life.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Yes, which I think that's a very interesting thing.
You've seen both sides of it,but you've seen the glory and
the goodness of God in your ownlife and I was talking to you
yesterday about how, asMethodists, we believe that we
call it provenient grace andit's the grace that hunts you
down, it's the grace that goesbefore you, the grace that draws

(46:18):
you and woos you in.
So I think about, like the signthat you saw, you know, but you
knew, like when you read it,you're like it did something
inside you?

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Yes, and I think because my parents, my mom,
specifically planted that seedas a child.
So once the seed is planted,eventually it's going to be
harvested at some point.
It just took me a really longtime.
It was a very slow growingprocess.
It stayed under the dirt forlike three decades.

Speaker 1 (46:48):
You know what, though ?
The prayers of parents, theyreally go a long way.
Yes, I'm sure Is your motherstill alive?
She is yeah, okay, yeah, soshe'd probably go.
Yeah, I was praying for thatgirl.
Yeah, so she'd probably go.
Yeah, I was praying for thatgirl, yeah Well she does every
day.

Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah, yeah, she still does.
She still calls me and she'llstart crying and she's wonderful
.
I have a wonderful mother.
My dad passed a while ago, butI have a wonderful mother.
Yeah, that's phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (47:14):
So let's talk about your healing then, because you
talked about how you've hadthings happen and you see the
glory of God.
When did you first startexperiencing that?
I know you.
Maybe we should back up alittle bit, because you were
going through the divorce.
Do you want to talk anythingabout how your son ended up?

(47:38):
We don't have to go into thedetails, but your son you lost
custody, or is that, yeah, youlost or no, you were waiting.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
Well, essentially you're correct.
So I had to get out of the FBIand I was just look.
For years I was looking andpeople think people think
incorrectly that if you work atthe FBI you're going to have
this golden ticket and you cango anywhere you want.
Not true?
I think a lot of people areintimidated.
You know, people don't want tohire someone that's smarter than
them, right?

Speaker 1 (48:15):
You're like and I am and I am.
No, I am, I know so.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
I mean, again, I don't have a filter, so I am,
I'm smarter than most people,it's fine.
And finally, I found adifferent position, similar to
what I was doing at the FBI, ina private sector company, and I
happen to be here in Florida,and the man who hired me is one

(48:41):
of the few people who's smarterthan I am, and he is Ryan's the
other one, but yeah, so at thatpoint I had to move to Florida.
I'm still working at the FBIand I file a modification so
that I can move to Florida andbring my son with me.
And at that time this wasDecember 2017, I was told it's

(49:07):
probably six to eight weeks andthen you can take him to Florida
.
Okay, fine, so I thought, allright, I can do anything for six
to eight weeks.
It's been seven years Justdrawn out and drawn out and
drawn out.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
So your son was up there most of the time Like how
did you navigate that?

Speaker 2 (49:27):
I went back and forth to Ohio several times a month.
There were times I didn't evenknow what state I was in because
I was just going back and forth, so much.
I maintained a second residencein Ohio for years.
We just sold that a couple ofyears ago.
The injustice that happenedwith the first trial was a lot

(49:50):
for me to understand, becausethe court didn't care about
previous abuse.
The court didn't care aboutanything.
They just didn't like me andsome people don't, but, you know
, think about what's best forthe child.
Well, that's the thing, right,yeah, so it's taken seven years

(50:17):
and we finally were able to goback to court and I won full
custody of my son.
It's a huge thing.

Speaker 1 (50:24):
Yes, so during that seven years, do you feel that
it's an interesting thing?
You could have blamed God forthat.
I did.
Okay, yeah, I did, I did.
So when did that shift?

Speaker 2 (50:41):
I think when I started realizing that there
could be a purpose.
There could be a purpose of whyI'm here, because I had doubts
that I shouldn't have moved toFlorida.
I shouldn't have moved toFlorida.

(51:02):
I shouldn't have moved toFlorida.
I should have stayed at the FBI.
I should have stayed in Ohio, Ishouldn't have moved to Florida
.
Now I'm having all this chaosand my son's having to go back
and forth just horrible, all theguilt and the shame of it.
Horrible decision.
This was really dumb.
I should not have done this.
I should have thought throughthis more, not have done this.

(51:25):
I should have thought throughthis more.
And then something happened withmy cousin, who I reconnected
with because I was living inFlorida and he was in North
Carolina and he was coming toFlorida to visit me in April of
21.
I hadn't seen him in 20 yearsand we just reconnected Fast

(51:48):
forward.
He was diagnosed withglioblastoma and we're three
months apart in age.
So we grew up together assiblings, super close, as
children, and he was nearing theend of his life.
And I thought and I was like abold Christian just three years
ago, especially with somebodywho is a nonbeliever yeah, right

(52:11):
, right, but I was faced withthis decision of he's going in
for brain surgery.
He's ending his nearing the endof his life, because nobody
survives glioblastoma.
It's 100% you die from it inshort term.
So I thought you know what?
I got to talk to him before hegoes in for the surgery, because

(52:32):
if he dies in the surgery, Idon't want Satan taking my
cousin, right, I don't wantSatan taking my cousin.

(53:01):
Yeah, so I reached out to himand I gave him like a salvation
plan before and I said look, Iknow this might seem awkward for
you, this is really importantto me.
Can you please pray before yoursurgery?
And I need you to believe this.
And he said I absolutely will.
So then I thought, and then hepassed away two months later.
Had I not moved to Florida,that would have happened, right,
what an awesome point.

(53:25):
Yeah, met that I've been ableto share with them about Christ
and Jesus, and you know reallyhard conversations of.
I know you don't believe this.
However, what if you're wrong?
Yeah, you know, my youngest sonalso came to know Jesus through
this time and my oldest son.
I was able to lead both of mysons.

Speaker 1 (53:43):
It's huge, it's not for it.
Yeah, because you startedseeing the purpose and you see
sometimes that in the wilderness, in the waiting that our faith
is changed and God uses us, Imean it's our perspectives.

(54:03):
It's our perspectives that needto be changed.
I know when I always talk aboutwhen there was a period of time
when Jim and I, after we movedto Florida and then we had a
year, jim worked and then I waslooking for a job and could
never find one and then hecouldn't stand where he was
working.
We came here because of his joband then I said just quit,

(54:25):
you're miserable.
So he did.
But that whole year I couldhave looked at it and thought
this is the worst thing we'veever gone through.
But instead God completelytransformed my faith because I
started believing God, I startedwalking in the Spirit.
I was so happy every day to getup.

(54:47):
I had no idea where our moneywas coming from.
Literally I didn't know how wewere paying bills.
I remember writing checks and Isaid to him I feel like our
money is like when Jesus isbreaking bread and it keeps
going on and on and on in thefish.
It doesn't make sense.
But my faith changed and thepeople I interacted with.
And when I moved here, the samething happened with my uncle.

(55:09):
I moved here and I hadn't seenmy uncle, my father's brother,
in years After my dad died hedied in 1990, I lost contact
with his entire family.
I didn't know.
My uncle lived here and my momtold me he was down here.
I called him.
He wasn't a believer.
He said to me one day, thefirst time we talked, he said

(55:36):
are you one of those Jesusfreaks like the rest of the
family?
And I said I laughed, I saidyou might say that.
So then he started talkingabout what he believed.
And then I don't know if he was, it was some kind of crazy
stuff.
And he talks about all of itand then he goes.
You know, I think we have a lotin common.
And I said what do you mean?
He goes?

(55:56):
We're both very religious.
And I said what do you mean?
He goes?
We're both very religious.
And I said well, I'm notreligious, I'm passionate about
my relationship with Jesus.
And then he said why doeseverybody talk about Jesus all
the time?
I said you brought it up, butfor two years I was able to
minister to him and he came toChrist and it was like maybe two

(56:17):
months before he died, and thathappened with multiple people,
same.

Speaker 2 (56:22):
Yeah, and when people have that reaction when you're
talking about Jesus, it's almostlike they treat believers like
we are crazy or like there'ssomething wrong with us Right,
but they don't know what.
They don't know, right, and ifthey did know they wouldn't be

(56:43):
acting like that.
So you know, I thought theother day.
You know, we can't be surprisedwhen spiritually dead people
act like they're spirituallydead.

Speaker 1 (56:52):
Absolutely.
That's a great thing to say.

Speaker 2 (56:54):
That's right Of course they're going to mock and
persecute and laugh at you andthink you're crazy.
Okay, I love when that happens,because I know that I'm going
to be blessed beyond measure forenduring that.
Yeah, so you know, in mycustody trial this last time,

(57:18):
the other side was coming at me.
You think God's on your side,don't you?
Yep, you think you are chosen?
Yes, I do.
You think you're anointed,don't you?
Yes, smirking, laughing,laughing, and I thought this is

(57:45):
wonderful because now you'repicking a fight with a whole
different yeah, army here.
That's it.

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Bring it on keep fine , yeah, but you said something,
didn't you?
Did you say something to themlike, but it's for you too.

Speaker 2 (58:04):
Yeah, I said it's a free gift.
Everyone here can have it.
It's for you too, yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:11):
It's the.
I mean I love that, I love thatand I love that.
You know, look how you.
Maybe you probably wouldn'thave said that, maybe I'm wrong,
but you probably wouldn't havesaid that a few years before
that.

Speaker 2 (58:25):
No, no, I am.
The boldness that I have forChrist is something I've never
known before.
It's a fire in me that is newin the last year or so.

Speaker 1 (58:42):
You know, in Acts, in the book of Acts, Pentecost,
when the Holy Spirit came, hecame and gave them power to
witness boldness.
And when you do like a study ofthe book of Acts, it's
brilliant, it's amazing, you seethem acting out.

(59:02):
It of the book of Acts, it'sbrilliant, it's amazing, you see
them acting out.
It's the power of the HolySpirit on you.
And the power of the HolySpirit comes, you know, when we
allow the Holy Spirit, when wesurrender, allow the Holy Spirit
to fill us and it's not usanymore, we're in there.
But I mean, then the HolySpirit is controlling us and
that's what he wants us to do.

Speaker 2 (59:22):
Yeah, yeah, and I do that often.
And in a different hearing Ihadn't said any words at all and
I was just praying to myself.
Holy Spirit, come and out ofthe blue, I just started
speaking with my ex-husband andI explained that I had chosen to

(59:42):
forgive him and it wasn't adecision or nothing between me
and you.
It's just between me and Godand I don't want to harbor the
anger anymore.
And I asked that you forgive meas well.
And nobody had anything to say,it was just speechless.
And then fast forward a couplemonths to trial.
I was accused of beingmanipulative and insincere and

(01:00:08):
posturing.
But since two years ago, threeyears ago, I might have thought,
oh my goodness, I thought I wassincere, but maybe I wasn't.
Maybe they're right, doubt, butnot in this instance, because I
know I wasn't saying thosewords.
Because how can I say thosewords to a man who hurt me and
my children so much?

(01:00:28):
That's right If you told meeven six months ago you know,
six months before that occurredI was going to do that.
No way, I'll never forgive that.

Speaker 1 (01:00:37):
Forgive that, but I have, yeah, and it's obvious.
I mean I see it, forgive that,forgive that.
But I have, yeah, and it'sobvious, I mean I see it in you.
So.
But I want to get to somethingbecause you know we haven't
really honed in on what happened.
So you're at the FBI, you're inthe middle of turmoil, your

(01:00:57):
marriage is falling apart, youdon't have custody of your child
, you move down here, la la la.
It's like you're seeing Godpursue you.
You know that.
What did you start doing thatreally changed you, so that you
began hearing from God and beganwalking out what God was asking

(01:01:18):
you to do and being able toforgive what really changed in
your life?

Speaker 2 (01:01:28):
I had a phone conversation with my youngest
son's teacher or therapist atthe time, and she encouraged me
you need to write these thingsdown, you need to write a book
because this is going to helpsomebody.
And I thought no.
So I had a journal and so Ijust started writing things down
, and then I started writingscripture down, and then I

(01:01:49):
started Were you reading theBible Reading.
no, my phone Just my phone Okayokay, I mean no, I was reading
an actual Bible, but no, I wasreading an actual Bible, but I
mean you were reading.
Yeah, I downloaded the Bible app.
I'm writing scripture.
I'm trying to find scripturethat applies to my life, that
could help me, and I'm justwriting it down.

(01:02:09):
And then I was listening to abook by Priscilla Shire out on a
walk during this is COVID, likeearly COVID, Maybe?
Yeah, like 2021 COVID.
Covid, like early COVID, maybe?
Yeah, like 2021 COVID.
And I said the book wasDiscerning the Voice of God and
the advice in it was surroundyourself with godly women.

(01:02:33):
Here I am in Florida.
I have no friends.
I have nobody.
I have one girlfriend.
She is still in Ohio.
I don't have anybody here.
And that night, the wife of oneof my husband's co-workers at

(01:02:57):
his law firm at the time sent mea Facebook message and said hey
, we're starting a new Biblestudy group.
Do you want to join us?
We have room for one moreperson.
And earlier in the day I lovedthe Priscilla Shire book, so I
went and found another one andadded it to my Amazon cart, and
it was Isaiah.
So it was in my Amazon cart,although I didn't buy it.
And then here it is, five hourslater.

(01:03:18):
My friend Jessica says can youwant to join this Bible study
group?
And I said what book is it?
She said we're doing Isaiah byPriscilla Shire.
And I was just blown awaybecause I had put that in my
Amazon cart five hours earlier.
That's no coincidence.
And so it was such a shortperiod of time where I had this

(01:03:41):
passing thought and I wouldn'teven have considered it a prayer
, because growing up it's likesuper formal, you know, it's
like you pray and you have to dosit a certain way, and that's
not true at all.
I have a running conversationwith God all day.
Ryan's like who are you talkingto?
It's like Jesus.
Running conversation with Godall day.
Ryan's like who are you talkingto?
I was like Jesus.

(01:04:01):
So, yeah, when I was walking inmy neighborhood, I just said you
know, God, lead me to a groupof godly women.
And it happened within hoursand that, I think, was a pivotal
moment.
That really was the catalyst toget me to where I am today,
Because the growth and thelearning of all these women has

(01:04:24):
been so impactful, and thefriendships.
And then I meet Shauna and thenI end up coming here and it's
just, it's really a wonderfulstory.
But had I not moved to Florida,I wouldn't know any of these
things.
So the doubt of I shouldn'thave moved to Florida is gone
completely for me now, which iswonderful.

Speaker 1 (01:04:44):
And now you have, you receive the Newsy of full
custody of your son.
So, like it's, all kind of comefull circle.

Speaker 2 (01:04:51):
It's all come full circle.
There's a lot of chaos that'sstill happening from the other
side because of course, there'sobjections and appeals and all
that kind of thing, but God didnot bring me this far to say, oh
, I'm just kidding, absolutely.
So it's a lot of work on Ryan'spart because he is my attorney

(01:05:17):
for free and it's just a lot ofunnecessary chaos.
Yeah, but you know, they canspend their wheels and spend
money and a man's not going tooverturn what God did.
No, it's just not going tohappen.
So is there?

Speaker 1 (01:05:35):
anything else.
I mean, we have so much to talkabout, but I think your story
is compelling.
I think there's a lot of hopebecause I don't know anybody
else who's gone through whatyou've gone through emotionally,
and you didn't even touch thetip of the iceberg with all the

(01:05:55):
stuff that's going on, thathappened to your personal life.
But you went through so muchthere and then your work life
was total chaos and pain anddifficulty and I look at you now
and like no one would ever know.
But you have your own businessand you're working on that and
you have your family, and isthere anything you want to say

(01:06:17):
to anybody, anything else thatyou want to say about your life
or to encourage anybody who'swatching?

Speaker 2 (01:06:29):
A lot of my confusion always surfaced with my
inability to trust my ownjudgment.
What if I do the wrong thing?
What if I?
Because it's like, oh, I'mgonna make a wrong decision and
this and this happens, and then,if this happens, and all these
what ifs?
And I learned that not everydecision is a right or wrong

(01:06:52):
decision.
Some decisions are right orleft decisions, yeah, and you
just have to pick.
And then you have to trust that, no matter if it's right or
left decision, that God willlead you to where you need to be
anyway, because even if you'remeant to be here and you take
the right, you're still going toend up here.

(01:07:13):
Right, if you're yielding andyou have a.
That's right.
If you have a relationship withGod.
An actual relationship with Godyou can believe in God is
different than actuallyfollowing and having a
relationship, because if youdon't have the relationship with
God, then you won't know whatyou're supposed to do because
you're not hearing it.

(01:07:34):
So, for me, one transformativething that I implemented in the
last year is fasting, fastingand prayer several days my
husband does it as well andreally hard things.
So I fasted before I got mycustody decision and it was like

(01:07:58):
God was in my living room andsaid Heather, look at the
journal entry from this timelast year.
And I did.
And it was the day that wefiled our motion to modify and
it was Good Friday and myhusband and I prayed over it
before we filed it and God saidyou're done fasting today, go
eat something.
This is going to be done byGood Friday this year.
And I was just like, ok, I'mgoing to go make a burger, like

(01:08:20):
I was.
It was just done.
And then I was challenged by afriend that said what if you
prayed forever with the samefervor that you did?
My name is it the name?
What if you prayed for yourex-husband with the same amount
of fervor and focus that you didfor the end of the custody case

(01:08:43):
and I did, although I did notwant to be hungry for my
ex-husband.
It's like that's a really hardthing to do, god.

Speaker 1 (01:08:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:08:53):
But I did, and I made sure I fasted a couple more
hours to make sure I didn'tskimp on it.
I made sure I fasted a couplemore hours to make sure I didn't
skimp on it.
And I was just praying Ezekiel36, 26, that God will turn his
heart of stone to a heart offlesh and that he will know the
sovereignty of God, and I prayblessings for him.
Yeah, and it gives me a lot ofpeace because I know it

(01:09:14):
ultimately is his decision.
But I've done everything I cando on my end.
That's right, and I want my sonto have a wonderful father Of
course you do.
How great would that be if hewere to change and just be this
wonderful dad to my son.
So I want that for him and Idon't want anybody being on

(01:09:36):
Satan's team, even my worstenemy.
I don't want them going to hell.
That's it.
That's right.

Speaker 1 (01:09:41):
So no, those are excellent words, excellent words
of advice.
Well, I really am grateful thatyou came on and I'm looking
forward to more conversationswith you, maybe you and Ryan
together, yeah, Ryan and Itogether, or my friend who is
still at the Bureau yeah, ryanand I together.

Speaker 2 (01:10:00):
Or my friend who is still at the Bureau.
She and I would be really goodto have on too, because we have
really great conversations backand forth and we do not believe
the same things at all, but welove each other just the same.

Speaker 1 (01:10:11):
I love that.
Yeah, I love that.
Well, we'll have to make thathappen.
You get her down here, we'll doit.
Yeah, she won't come down.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Oh, she won down.
She'll go on Zoom.
She hates traveling Zoom.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
I've done Zoom too, well, awesome.
Well, thanks for coming todayand look forward to a future
interview.
Yes, and if anybody, I'll putthe notes in about your company
and all that.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
Okay, yeah, yeah, thank you, and I'll see you
Sunday, yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:10:39):
See you then.
Bye.