July 24, 2025 • 56 mins
Ep. 94: Figuring out how to support your child and yourself through emotional ups and downs
What even is co-regulation—and how do we do it without becoming the default regulator for everyone in our lives?
Tracy Adams is a seasoned occupational therapist and mama who helps working parents better understand their children’s sensory and emotional needs.
In this heartfelt and strategy-packed episode, Tracy opens up about her own identity shift in motherhood and how sensory tools, mental load management, and community can help us navigate parenthood without losing ourselves.
Whether you’re fielding daycare calls or just trying to get through the dinner hour chaos, this one’s for you.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
Why co-regulation doesn’t mean regulating everyone in your life
What occupational therapy is—and how it can help you even without a diagnosis
Tools for navigating daycare challenges, sensory overload, and “problem behaviours”
How to advocate for your child and yourself without burnout
The difference between empathy and emotional labour
Why a “plan” can make all the difference in hard parenting seasons
Related episodes:
- Ep. 88: Finding your flock in motherhood with Gemma Van Slyke of The Motherflock – Spotify or Apple
- Ep. 81: How to raise emotionally strong, self-aware boys with Kathy Imabayashi, veteran educator and founder of sonhood coaching
- Ep. 57: Coping with shame and guilt as a parent with Kyira Wacket – Spotify or Apple
About Tracy Adams:
Tracy Adams is an occupational therapist with over 15 years of experience in mental health, leadership, and family support. She is also a Clinical Faculty member at UBC’s School of Occupational Science and Occupational Therapy.
After becoming a mother, Tracy merged her professional expertise with her lived experience to support families navigating emotional development, sensory challenges, and the pressures of modern parenting.
Book with Tracy (virtually!) at Woodlands Collective here.
About Andrea Barr, host of All Figured Out:
Andrea Barr is a certified career and life coach who helps ambitious parents take charge of their careers and lives with strategy, intention, and freedom. She rejects the idea that success requires sacrifice—showing parents how to create more time, flexibility, and fulfillment without burnout. Through her coaching, workshops, and podcast, All Figured Out, Andrea shares the strategies and mindset shifts parents need to design careers that fit their lives—so they can thrive at work and at home.
Connect with Andrea via Instagram here or her website here.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Welcome back to the All Figured Out podcast.
My name is Andrea Barr. Thank you so much for joining me
for another episode this week. I got to sit down with Tracy
Adams, who is an amazing occupational therapist.
She's an educator, she's a mom, and she's just a very lovely,
wonderful human being. We had a really cool
conversation about parenting, healthcare, the system, as in
(00:24):
the healthcare system, the education system, and everything
in between. Tracy became a mom in that early
days of the pandemic and she experienced being basically on
the front lines of the healthcare during the pandemic,
and she's extremely passionate about supporting families and
just helping them cope and enjoylife better, more, whatever you
(00:47):
want to say. We talk about in this episode
occupational therapists and whatthey actually do because I think
a lot of people don't know what they do, myself included.
I actually learned a lot in thisepisode and I've been friends
with Tracy for a bit now. We also talked about how sensory
profiles can impact yours or your children's day-to-day life
and why Co regulation is so important, but also potentially
(01:09):
needs to rebrand because it's again, another kind of confusing
word. Tracy breaks down how
understanding your own needs andyour child's needs can really
shift everything. We also just talk about, you
know, strategies and ways. Just find a bit more calm in
some of the chaos that you mightfeel some feelings around
irritability or overwhelm, especially being working
(01:29):
parents. So if you've ever felt confused
by the healthcare system, overwhelmed by parenting
expectations, or just unsure about how to help your child and
yourself at the same time, then this episode is definitely for
you. Enjoy.
You're listening to the All Figured Out podcast.
I'm your host, Andrea Barr. I'm a career coach for parents,
(01:52):
mom of two, and a self-proclaimed expert at
winging it. After 10 years in the corporate
world, two major career pivots, and navigating life with kids,
I've learned one thing. No parent has it all figured
out, and that's OK. Here, we're all about growing
personally and professionally while keeping family time
sacred. You'll get practical tips,
(02:13):
career strategies and musings onlife, plus guest experts to help
us fill in the gaps. So grab a coffee or hide in your
car for some anytime. We're about to figure out this
work, life and parenting stuff out together.
OK, third times the charm. Tracy Adams, welcome to the All
Figured Out podcast. Thanks for having me.
(02:35):
Thanks for being here. We've said this three times.
There must be magnets in the world right now.
Big tides and low tides, full moon.
I don't know, some happening, but this is our third time
recording the first couple minutes of this.
So, you know, I think it's goingto get better each time.
So pleased to have you here, Tracy.
You are a fantastic service provider as an occupational
(02:58):
therapist. I know you've studied
kinesiology. I know that you have a million
certifications and there's so much that I'm, I want to ask you
about today, including things todo with occupational therapy.
First question will be what is an occupational therapist?
And we're going to talk about Coregulation and parenting and
being a working parent and all the things.
(03:18):
But before we even get into any of that, I am super curious to
hear about your experience into becoming a mother.
I bet before even becoming a mother you've worked with lots
of families and parents and thenyou yourself had the experience
of joining this club. So tell us a bit about your
story into becoming a mother. Yeah, for sure.
(03:40):
So I was one of kind of my groupof friends that had kids later
on in life. You know, I had gone to school
and gone to grad school and thenwanted to travel.
And so I'm really supported to do that, which was great.
And then when we decided to havea family, you know, COVID kind
of happened. So I did a lot of like
(04:00):
upskilling, learning about what it was to be pregnant through
COVID and then parenting throughCOVID through isolation and
things. So but that was kind of my
journey for the last, you know, four years, still figuring it
out and things are getting better and better.
But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
So yeah, my, my son is, yeah, kind of the littlest one out of
(04:22):
all kind of the kid group friends.
But I think that's OK. Oh yeah, they can look after
him. I find when there's older kids
around you have to do less parenting right?
Yes, that's a very good point. And what did you mean by
upskilling? So were you were like learning
about parenting and isolation? Like is that what you mean you
(04:42):
were studying? You know, yeah, I just felt like
the lack of the village, right? Like I don't really have
anything else to compare it to. And I kept like trying to tell
myself that I was like, it'll befine.
I don't have anything to compareit to, you know, so I don't know
anything different. And then like afterwards I was
like, oh, I really need to pay attention to myself and pay
(05:03):
attention to my family in terms of my own mental well-being
because like, it was not, it wasnot normal.
Like people didn't come over, you know, the playground was
taped up, the coffee shops were,you know, closed.
And so it was just, it just was an experience that I didn't
really know what it was going tobe like.
And then at the same time, like knowing kind of what we know now
just about postpartum and what it takes like in that 4th
(05:28):
trimester and that I kind of hadto figure that out in a in a
different way, I guess so. Yeah.
How did that experience go for you?
Was it, did you, did you notice that gap?
Like, even though you had nothing to to contrast it with,
like did were you like intuitively like?
There's something missing here. A little bit, but I think it was
(05:49):
more like in reflection, like I think I'm working on that still
like day-to-day about kind of, you know, what went on, but
you're just such in survival mode, like regardless at that
time, whether there's a pandemicor not.
So, but I just found that the ability to problem solve, I felt
like I needed to do a little bitmore on my own or with my
partner essentially. So yeah, this.
(06:11):
Experience like being in healthcare, being in healthcare
leader during COVID, you were out.
Wild. It was wild.
I mean, things were changing, you know, all the time.
And yeah, like people were just,there's just a lot of fear,
like, you know, you know, reallya lot of stress.
And my role was to really try and make sure that people had
(06:33):
information we could still deliver care while trying to
reassure people where I really didn't have all the answers.
And again, like, things would change, you know, things change
all the time and things change really quickly.
But at the same time, during COVID, there were some days
where things would change withinhours of us doing things.
So yeah, so it was, it was definitely a wild time.
(06:56):
I think myself and my healthcarecolleagues definitely have a
different bond that than we usedto just living through that
together. And yeah, it was just wild
times. Yeah.
Trauma bond, right? Yeah.
Yeah. And explain exactly what it is
you do in healthcare, what you were doing during the during
COVID. Like what?
What do you mean by, you know, it was wild and we were
(07:17):
delivering care. What does that mean?
Yeah. So I work in community and I
lead a community mental health and substance use team.
And so we how it works is, you know, we oversee kind of like a
neighborhood area. So any clients that live in that
area would come and see us. So we see anyone anywhere
between like 607 hundred clientsat like actively at a time.
(07:42):
And so we have case managers that work with them and stuff
and they would come into the office or we go and see them.
And yeah, so during COVID also too, just making sure that they
were OK and they were getting what they need.
Also to you, you know, through the world of going through
virtual and hybrid, like a lot of our clients didn't have
access to some of those things as well as like not access to
reliable Wi-Fi and things. So, you know, just trying to be
(08:04):
really creative in that sense tomake sure that they were also
really well taken care of. Geez, I didn't even.
Yeah, that's a huge piece that we just all took for granted.
Like, oh, if you can do your jobvirtually, do it.
But can you do your job virtually?
Do you have the means to do yourjob virtually?
Is doing a job that you could even do virtually?
Like if you're, yeah, if it's, if you're a lower wage earner,
like is, you know, is that job? I don't know, I can't even think
(08:27):
of an example, but I yeah, that's, that's huge.
Like, I can only imagine that creativity that you were working
with. And so you are an occupational
therapist? Yeah.
Now I like to think I'm one withthe service providers.
I know I love a service provider.
I can say I know a bit about what an OTA is, and my husband
(08:50):
and I have spelt spent time in hospitals and things like that
with his health. But I'm going to be honest, I
wouldn't know the textbook definition of an occupational
therapist. And I think a lot of people
listening would also be like, OK, so you help people with
their occupation. Yeah, just like the, the like
classic like conversation starters like oh, so you work
(09:13):
with occupation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What kind of? Occupations, do you?
If you were to give it a new name, what would you give it?
I mean, I wouldn't necessarily give it like a new name because
it's all I know of. So yeah.
But I mean, in terms of a definition, yeah.
It is hard. I think being an occupational
(09:33):
therapist, not a lot of people know who we are unless you,
like, directly work with us and then you just know everything
about them. But essentially, you know, we're
in the school of rehab science. We work alongside or learn and
train alongside like physios andspeech language pathologists and
kind of, you know what I try to tell people your story and three
examples. So occupational therapists do
(09:55):
help with, you know, we use the technical term occupation, but
like it's really around functionand just how you live your
day-to-day life, you know. So the examples that I give
people are, you know, if somebody had a stroke and you
don't have a lot of range of motion within your, you know,
one of your arms, like your physio might work with you with
like increasing that range of motion.
(10:17):
Your OT would help you how to put a shirt on essentially with
that limited motion. So it's, those are the kind of
like the daily living tasks. And so when I relate it to
parenting and to just, you know,your overall mental health, it's
like how you're coping, right? And so that's a lot of work that
I do with parents now is just parents who have a lot of
questions, doubt around like coregulation or how their
(10:38):
children are developing emotionally.
Like we talk through that. So I'm able to, you know, tell
them what to worry about, not worry about, keep an eye on and
then come up with a game plan onhow they can correlate with
their children. So it's just more manageable.
So a lot of anxiety management, stress management, you know,
communication, increasing vocabulary around emotions and
(10:59):
feelings. So that's what I do as an OT
with parents. Now, OK, so you have a kid, so I
don't even want to say it doesn't have to be a kid who has
a diagnosis of some sort, but perhaps that's easy.
So they are diagnosed on the with autism spectrum disorder
and they've got and maybe they're they have physical
(11:20):
limitations, perhaps they have verbal limitations.
So they've got a speech playing with language pathologists.
Perhaps they also do work with the physio if that's like part
of what's going on for them. But then beyond that, what
you're trying to do is say, OK, how are you as a family
navigating this? Just in general?
Like are you guys OK with like navigating the quote UN quote
(11:42):
system? How are you all feeling about
this diagnosis? Is that kind of your
jurisdiction? Yeah.
And, you know, something that I really play into is just like
the environment, right? And so I'm a firm believer of
like health communities and looking at everything and just,
you know, it's what the role thefamily plays, right?
So the role of a kid is to be a cab.
So really it's about, you know, playing and going to school and
(12:05):
having friends. And all parents want that for
their kids. So I mean, they want they want
to be able to, to do that regardless of diagnosis or
regardless of like neurodivergent and things like
that. And all kids are super
different. And I find even now and I don't
know. If this is a product of COVID or
(12:25):
not. To be honest with you, or but I
just find the emotional regulation and the emotions of
kids that that's it's harder andharder for us as working parents
to have just the like the mentalspace to be able to know what's
what's happening and what's not.So yeah, I help with just, you
(12:46):
know, role development in terms of families and like, you know,
things of fitting in like inclusive childcare spaces.
You know, and every parent hatesgetting that phone call being
like, Oh, my kid hit somebody today or they bit someone or
they're like at risk of, you know, not being able to be
managed. You know, I, I very much firmly
believe that's like a, that's like a whole environment and
(13:08):
community challenge. That's not a kid challenge.
So that's yeah. So that's what I kind of do and
work with families around is just, you know, how can we work
together on very specific goals so that kids can be the kids and
that parents and then their teachers, whether that's at
daycare or at school, are able to help them thrive in those
environments that they're in. I think that's such a cool
(13:31):
occupation that you have. I think it's so the approach is
so interesting to me and it reminds me like I could liken it
to something like osteopathy, which I appreciate so much as
bodywork because their philosophy is not just looking.
You come in and you said my kneehurts.
They're not going to just massage your knee for an hour.
They're like, OK, how does this relate to your feet?
How does this relate to your neck?
(13:52):
And they look at the whole body.And that's what I just so value
about that. And that's the like how I'm
relating to like occupational therapy where instead of just
saying we're going to look at one tiny piece of the ecosystem,
no, you're saying we're going tolook at the whole environment.
We're not just looking at the kid and labeling this kid, OK,
They are on the autistic spectrum and that's that you're
like, no, they're a kid. You know, they, they just have,
(14:15):
they have differences, difference of abilities, like
they're no better, they're no worse.
And we have to look at the parents and how they're coping
and how they're handling. If you look at the, like you
said, the school and the environment, the sensory things
that they're exposed to the, theworld in which it's not always
set up for them. And I just think that it's so
frigging cool and so important. And it kind of makes me sad
(14:37):
that, um, your practice is kind of misunderstood.
I don't know, maybe I'm. Very.
Am I right in? That I mean, it's just not well
known. Like that's a thing, right?
Like, so that's where, you know,I think OT make really great
advocates as well, just because we do look at the system, right?
And that's kind of what I reallyenjoy the variety of where the
(14:59):
differences of where I work is. Like I can sit in certain places
and understand where the gaps are, you know, because like
different, different agencies and things, they don't
necessarily talk with each other, right?
Like the childcare system doesn't talk to the healthcare
system, which doesn't talk to the school of them.
Like they're all separate. So it's trying to really, you
know, bring them together, but also promote some understanding.
(15:21):
Like I don't think just the general public, but definitely
parents, like there's, there's not, they're not like for a lack
of wanting to know. There's just a lack of
understanding and information ofhow we all fit into this picture
and then how we all can work through it within our influence
because we can't solve and fix everything.
(15:41):
But by little by little, you know, try and do the best for
our kids, but then also to making sure that we're using our
voice to make sure we tell kind of our constituents and people
saying like, hey, this is not working for me in my community.
Most of the time they don't evenknow, like, to be honest,
they're just people like us. So I think it's really
important. So yeah, just I think OTA's have
(16:03):
a really great lens on being able to see different systems in
different environments and beingable to work through that for
sure. Yeah, that's so incredible.
What about the person who you know?
I think that there's something to be said.
I don't know how to phrase this.What about the people who fall
in the middle? And it's not to say that those
who have, say, children or they themselves have like pretty
(16:26):
extreme needs, but what about those people?
That's like the middle child syndrome where it's like there's
this group of people who are kind of sitting in the middle
and there's like a bit of suffering going on.
Nothing major, nothing wildly physical, maybe nothing visible,
maybe nothing that obvious, but they're kind of sitting in the
middle. And no GP unless they're really
cool and really good would be like, you know what, you might
(16:47):
really benefit from seeing an occupational therapist.
But so they're kind of just humming along.
Like what do you say to that to those people who are in the
middle that might be like, do you think that it could be
beneficial for that group of people who somebody who has a
mild learning? Challenge.
Yeah, totally. And I think that's what some of
the challenges to rate is that Ireally recognize that, you know,
I think pediatricians are reallywell aware of OT as a
(17:10):
profession. Your family doctor, General
practitioner probably doesn't. And so, yeah, I mean, for what I
understand, you really don't geta referral to a pediatrician
unless you like your family doctor can't meet your needs,
right? So there's not a ton of plans
like extended health that have OT.
So it's comes through different funding bodies, right?
(17:30):
So yeah, like autism funding units, like that's where you
would get access. But anyone can access an OT
privately and you know, pay privately just like we do, you
know, for people who have the resources and are privileged
enough like you, you can look around and, and again, that's
another way of understanding like your healthcare system is
like choices you have, right? There's other choices outside of
(17:53):
the public healthcare realm. I'm not saying that it's good or
a bad thing, but I definitely think, you know, anyone can look
up an occupational therapist andlook up what their specialties
are and definitely refer or get in touch.
And so that's, you know, that's who I'm technically seeing quite
a lot of the time is people thatare, you know, they're working
(18:17):
on a diagnosis or they're unsureor they're just on the cusp and
their family doctor is saying, you know, oh, we'll just keep
watching it until we get to school.
Meanwhile, the family is really struggling.
Like the family and the childcare provider, they're
really struggling. And then, you know, in this day
and age, you got 2 working parents.
Like how on earth are you supposed to take time off work
and go to these appointments? Are you getting these your phone
(18:38):
calls? So those are the cells.
Yeah, the phone calls. Voicemails.
Yeah. Like, can you please call me
back? I have to talk to you about your
child. Like, you know, nobody wants to
get that phone call. And it's just, it can feel so
isolating to feel like something's wrong when you are
in that middle stage. And, you know, so I mean, I of
(19:01):
course, like, I recommend to reach out, like even just to ask
questions about what's possible.But I mean, I think for all of
us, sometimes we all just need alittle bit of help and, and you
know, where we're at in life. I mean, again, I'm a huge
believer in like counseling and therapy and just all sorts of
different ways that we can all just limit the amount of
(19:22):
suffering we're going through. Yes.
And I love there's so much I want to pull out of like what
you've been saying, like the power of choice is so important.
And we of course have to recognize the privilege in that.
And if we kind of we push past that for a second and we look at
the choices and options we have given our privilege, there's so
much like, I think it's so cool because if you have the
(19:44):
opportunity to say, even just gothrough privately or use your
healthcare spending account and just ask the questions like
you're adding to your village. Like you and I, before we hit
record, we were just talking briefly about like your village
and that sort of thing. And it's and there's just
something to be said about like choosing.
It's kind of like chosen family.Like you've got, if you have a
family that's wonderful and thenyou've got your friends, but
(20:04):
it's like you have to have different people in your corner
for different things. And this could just be one more
of those pieces. And then on the topic of choice.
One thing that you were talking about, and we were talking
about, of course, over a casual dinner with our friend Georgina,
because of course we start talking about like intense
parenting life things because that's just who three of us are.
But we were talking about, I think I was just I was
(20:28):
peppering, of course, with questions as I do.
And I was like, OK, So what doesthe OT do?
And you're like, it gives you. What did you say?
There was something about, like,really stuck with me.
You're saying you learn what your choices and your options
are because you were saying thatthere's, you know, you weren't
giving any sort of detail, but you're like, you know, I'm
working with a family. They just didn't even know what
options were available to them. Yeah.
(20:49):
So it's like, it's like these stepping stones, like, OK, you
hire Someone Like You who would be no judgment.
And there's no judgment of beinglike, I don't know if, like, I
really need your help. And like, I'm embarrassed
reaching out because what if this is overkill?
But who cares, right? Like, what's the worst that
could happen? But you say, no, you guys are
doing great. Like go see a counselor or
whatever. Yeah.
Then you were saying it's like you can unlock all these options
(21:11):
for what the people have. Like, we all just think that
it's like you just have to wait for this referral.
Like you're just waiting for a referral, right?
Yeah, yeah, Orange is empoweringby choice, right?
Like I think we live in a world where, you know, and this is
what I teach a lot of the the staff that I work with is don't
assume that inherently our clients are supposed to trust us
(21:34):
100%, right. And so I think there's still
some of that narrative of, you know, somebody tells you there's
an issue and you trust it or youjust follow that pathway.
And there's so many people out there where I think, you know,
we mislead them through trust. And that's why I, I love being
an OT where I just get to ask, you know, like, who's this an
(21:55):
issue for, you know, So again, like between like the school or
daycare and the family, like, you know, sometimes the daycare
will be maybe pushing for a little bit more in terms of, you
know, developmentally, like the potty training question and the
bottle weaning question comes upall the time.
And it's like, well, are you as a family ready to do that?
Is it the right time? Do you have the capacity or is
(22:19):
the daycare asking you to do this?
Like, is this the developmentally related
challenge? Yes or no?
Right. So I, I just, I put that back on
the people asking me the question because I feel there's
a lot of pressure, especially now for parents to just make
these decisions and go with whatthe experts are telling them.
(22:40):
And I'm not saying they're wrong, like everybody is
well-intentioned, right? They just want the best.
But I, I truly believe that, youknow, sometimes we don't get the
questions that parents really want to ask because of this
just, you know, trusting of whatthey should be working on.
Essentially, Yeah. OK, can we use that as an
(23:00):
example? And I said, you like using
examples and things. Let's use the example of let's
combine Georgina's world, our friend Georgina of Woodlands
Collective. You guys work together.
Now. I can't remember what we said in
the intro and what we didn't because we've recorded it three
times. So Tracy works works with our
friend, friend of the podcast Georgina Vishnevsky.
They work together at Woodlands Collective.
(23:21):
So let's combine both your worlds.
So this is this is both of you because you're getting from the
daycare. OK, we're going to move them
into the preschool room. I don't actually know this is
how it works, but whatever. Humor me.
OK, we're going to move your kidinto the preschool room.
But in the preschool room, they can't nap.
So you have to drop your nap andOh yeah, we have to move them to
(23:42):
the preschool room because we'vegot a daycare kid coming here or
whatever it is. So you're being told in order
for your kid to have childcare, you've got to drop the nap and
the family like, ooh, it doesn'tfeel quite right.
What do you say to that? How can one navigate that?
Like, what are your rights? Is that even the right question?
(24:02):
Like what can you do? Yeah, well, first of all, my
e-mail is like to Georgina and being like, can we talk about
this just in terms of her you like again to get her
perspective on on sleep and things and she probably would
have, you know, a number of questions and and different
suggestions and things. I mean again, I would look at
like environment with the choices are right.
So I mean, does it have to be nap?
(24:24):
Can it be quiet time? Can it be like a quiet time with
like a sensory regulating activity?
Can it be gradual? You know, what is the meeting
point in the middle between family and and the daycare staff
because it does happen, right? Like that does happen in terms
of, you know, licensed daycares and childcare centres.
They have age-related licensing that they have to adhere to.
(24:47):
So again, understanding kind of where that's coming from like as
a system too, they don't the operators don't have the ability
to change licensing, right. So it's just that it's coaching
the parents through about this is what's happening.
It might feel icky. What are your choices?
What are you comfortable with? And that's kind of how we would
(25:08):
go about that, yeah. I love analogies and this my
next analogy for you is it kind of reminds me of when you're, I
work with a lot of people who are in the career space, they're
transitioning jobs. A lot of people come to me who
have been fired, they're workingwith lawyers.
And you kind of screamed to me as if like you're that counsel,
like the you can call you up andbe like, what are my rights and
(25:31):
choices year, which is what you do when you call a lawyer.
You're like, Hey, what, what aremy options?
Because sometimes you don't evenknow what the options are.
Like we were saying before. So I love that.
Yeah. And usually it's in a time where
things are like really emotionally escalated, right.
Like things can be really quite stressful and challenging.
And, you know, there's a sense of just again, feeling like
(25:52):
alone or frustrated. And so it's it's just nice to
sometimes have a sounding board about kind of like, OK, you
know, yes, totally entitled to feel angry, upset, frustrated.
And then here's here's what I'm thinking in terms of a plan,
right? So just like takes that mental
load off? Of people for sure.
I love every time I talk to you about this, you use the word
(26:14):
plan. You're like, well, we'll create
a plan for them and like we likewrite out a plan.
I'm like, oh God, that sounds nice.
Having someone who's not you andyour partner come up with like
just some suggestion, a plan. I'm like, that sounds so nice.
So we don't make up the plan ourselves.
Yeah, it's one of my favorite things to do.
Like that's kind of what like sowhen I work with families
through, yeah, the collectivist,you know, you take their goal
(26:36):
and you basically just, I write out that's what OTC's do.
They grade kind of the activity.So there's different phases of,
you know, when you're ready because also too, like you
shouldn't be starting something when you're not ready, right?
So I tell families that all the time and like, don't start potty
training when you've got people coming to visit or you're
getting a new dog or like, don'tdo that like.
(26:56):
Dog. Yeah, pick a weekend or
something where you like actually have time and space.
And so then and then I write outincluding like scripts.
So I find that parents find thatreally helpful, especially with
that emotional regulation piece.It's like, what do I say in
these moments when my kids like,losing their mind, you know,
(27:17):
just in terms of like a game plan.
And then it can be consistent between you and your partner and
the daycare staff, right? Like, it's just you're
constantly saying the same things, which is always helpful
for learning and stuff. So.
Yeah. So and who doesn't love to like
go so see you then or approaching the daycare and
you're all like flustered and feelings, big feelings, big, big
(27:38):
feelings. And then you're going and you're
like, well, this is just how I feel.
But like to have Someone Like You, to have support to give you
scripts to be like, this is where I'm coming from.
Just to have like taken a beat and to have some like language
empowered language like that just sounds real nice.
Trying to think so many areas. I feel like I could use your
help. I'll be I'll be in touch.
OK, Co regulation. We hear this word phrase.
(28:00):
I don't know the part word all the time.
What does it mean? What on earth does that mean?
Why is it such a weird word? I think it's funny.
I know, right? It's like you got regulation and
coagulation. And yeah, I mean, I love this
topic because I find, well, first of all, we'll go with your
first question before I dive into I don't remember.
(28:22):
The first question was. Well, just like Co regulation,
like in the parenting space is like how are you?
Like how are you? And I'm going to use the word
again, Co regulating with your child.
So how are you connecting or attuning to your child?
So if you are able to regulate yourself, then the science is
proving that you can also regulate your child like through
(28:44):
just your own managing your own self.
So that's like 2 right Co regulation.
The kind of the premises is thatif you escalate with your child
emotionally, your child will continue to escalate.
And, and so, and that doesn't help anyone because just how the
brain works, you know, it just, you pick in your, your kind of
survival mode and then there's no thinking that happens kind of
(29:05):
in the frontal lobe, right. So that doesn't help the child,
that doesn't help you. So I mean, that's, that's kind
of my first cue. Umm, And then I just find like,
you know, again, in today's world, women are asked to be the
Co regulars of like everyone else around them, like and and I
don't think that's, you know, I don't know if it's anyone's
(29:28):
fault or anything like that, butI just.
Have fun, patriarchy. Like, you know, like this again,
it speaks to that whole mental load thing.
It's like where you're supposed to be the rational one at all
times as the parent, as the partner, as the, you know, in
the sandwich generation with your own parents, like at work,
(29:51):
like, you know, and, and so I find the word Co regulation
really interesting. And I've learned this a lot
through even my own therapy journey is like, you know, it's
it's not OK to think that you'regoing to be Co regulating with
other people. Like it's totally fine to be Co
recognized parent. That's that's not the case.
But for us to be continually perpetuating this kind of
(30:12):
generation of like I as a woman need to Co regulate with
everyone else. Like trying to change that a
little bit and I, you know, we're all still working on that.
But yeah, so that's why I really, really appreciate kind
of this work that I do, is that not only can I empower families
and parents, but also just in our own selves, like being able
(30:34):
to regulate our own selves. And then also having those
boundaries around like what's OKin terms of the expectation or
the pressure that we're supposedto be regulating the rest of the
world essentially? So when we say Co regulation and
you see it on TikTok, Instagram is a real we're talking
predominantly about Co regulation between parent, a
(30:55):
parent and child relationship. And we're not talking about like
we need to be, but this is actually my book.
So we don't. We actually aren't meant to be
Co regulating with our spouse, but that's not really what the
term means. No, I mean, that's not where I'm
I'm taking it. So essentially, yeah.
Like just having that, you know,as a role as a parent, I'm Co
(31:16):
regulating with my child so thatthey can develop emotionally in
a good way. Whereas I think in the world
today, there is this expectationfrom women inherently that, you
know, we're to be Co regulating everyone else, right, Managing
everyone else's emotions and stress.
And and then, you know, on the days that we're having a really
(31:38):
hard time, then we're the ones that are kind of that is being
like, well, what's wrong with you?
Right. It's like, well, yes, like I,
you know, you're managing everything else.
So it's just it's about, you know, changing that narrative
and changing the expectation around that.
You know, women are supposed to be Co regulating everyone else.
It's like, no, you're responsible for yourself.
(31:58):
Like I'm not the one to carry your stress and regulating and
help you through it. It's like I will support you
through it, but it's not my job to then be the other person
that's to to regulate you. Right, OK, so it's empathy.
It sounds like maybe it's empathy coming out with love,
whatever. But empathy is not Co regulation
because you are not like empathyis like I, I see you, I hear
(32:24):
you. I'm here, but you're not Co
regulating would be like I'm going to ICU escalating.
So I'm gonna work my damnest to like regulate myself so hard so
that I can bring you down. Like there's an outcome attached
to it to try to like bring the other person down.
But if we're constantly doing that, there's burnout versus
(32:44):
empathy. And we have empathy with our
kids too. But like, it's more like you're
creating a safe boundary. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. And yeah, So I mean, I think
what happens to when you're outside of that parenting role
with the regulation is that you end up holding in all your own
stress, right? So you're not, you're also not
(33:07):
participating in a safe space where you can then also say, I'm
feeling stressed or this is what's happening for me because
you're not wanting to impact theother person.
And so that's that's also not, Ithink not OK, it's not healthy.
It's not. And I think this is where we see
like, you know, some of the outbursts and mom rage and that
kind of stuff among a variety ofthings.
But that's, that's kind of what I'm, you know, looking at is,
(33:30):
well, what kind of boundaries are you also setting around your
ability to regulate and then also be able to voice that in a
safe way? Yeah.
Do you work with parents like, oh, sorry, obviously you work
with parents. Do you work with parents as
being the client? Like do you?
Have when they don't tend to come to me that way, but that
that sometimes does happen, right, because they go hand in
(33:53):
hand, like they come like families come to me with a
challenge they're experiencing, but they're also stressed,
right? They're so I all, you know, it's
really interesting. They'll often include that
question when I'm meeting peoplefor the first time.
It's like, so how are you, like,how are you doing?
You know, in in all my plans also too, I also recommend that,
you know, parents have their ownscheduled alone time or things
(34:17):
that they're working on outside of that, you know, so I think
it's really hard and to separateyourself from that.
Again, it becomes like a time and space and capacity issue.
But definitely like, you know, we end up putting in some of
those self-care things because that's also being able to
regulate yourself. So then you can be prepared for
the other hard things that come.Yes, OK, I saw something
(34:40):
recently this weekend that was one of those hard, hard
situations to watch that you completely have empathy for.
It was at the playground. There was a child, it was just
not having fun anymore, just losing it, just losing it.
And with the most love in my heart, I shared this because I
want to know like, you know, if I get to that point, like what,
(35:01):
what on earth do you do? Like talk about examples.
So the word that in the men's mouth were, you know, stop
crying, why don't you start walking home?
And the kid was like, no, I wantto walk with you.
Which then kind of breaks your heart cause they were clearly
there was just so upset. And then the mom said, again,
(35:22):
this is not coming from a place of judgment, but I could see how
quickly this could escalate. The mom was like, well, nobody
wants to walk with you if you'recrying, like.
That yeah, yeah. And it you know, I don't know, I
don't even know if I should brought this up, but it's like
it really broke my heart becauseI felt so deeply for the mom
because she was clearly they were clearly having such a hard
(35:45):
time. And there is like clearly that
double escalation of both of them.
Like how do you prevent that? How do you talk about Co
regulating? Like how can I don't know what's
going on in that situation? If you hear that story, what is
happening there for? This family, yeah, One I think
we can all say. I mean, I can say like, we've
(36:07):
all been there, like we've all had, like we're not perfect.
Humans are not meant to be perfect.
And not perfect parents, you know, where you're just like not
your best self for whatever reason.
And it can happen anywhere. The most important thing I think
in that situation, like you can't go back and change it
essentially. And I, I don't necessarily like,
(36:28):
I think we do as parents a lot of really good work to try to
prevent your, you know, those things from happening.
So like, I'm not going to say those things and it just
happens, right? So the most important part that
I tell parents is like don't, don't avoid it and don't beat
yourself up, but like come back to it.
So, you know, after the maybe they get home or, you know,
(36:49):
things have settled down, you know, to be able to like sit
down with your child and say, you know, what happened at the
park That was really hard. Like I saw how hard and how sad
you were. I was really sad and angry too.
And I'm really sorry I said that.
So it's just, it's that kind of like repair cycle.
So it's just acknowledging like things like that will happen.
(37:13):
It's what what can we learn fromthem?
And then how do you repair that?And that's kind of a bit of the
cycle with Co regulation as well.
Yeah. And does that.
OK, so the first thing that cameto mind was, are you just
bringing it back up? And then are you creating a core
memory? This is crazy, I know.
But this is where like a mom's brain goes.
So by bringing it back up, are you like solidifying and like
(37:37):
actually, what if they didn't even hear it?
And then you're telling them, you know, or you're reminding
them of what happened when you weren't in your best.
And do we, is there kind of research and or is that I don't
know, are things indicating thatthe apology?
Like can they take that in, you know, say like a 5 or 6 year
old? Like can they feel that,
understand that? Yeah, I mean, I, I truly believe
(37:59):
that they do. And if it's not in that moment,
it's like you're, you're creating kind of this image that
they have as you as a parent that if, if you like, you get
into an argument or a disagreement with them, like
it'll be OK in the end, right? Like that, you don't have to be
worried about that little linger.
There's a grudge or, you know, right, You know, Mum's never
(38:20):
gonna walk with me home from thepark, you know, if I get upset.
So even at that moment in time again, developmentally, like I,
I, I recommend this for any age,like I don't even, you know,
even for kids that don't even have really language yet.
It's just you're, you're promoting the sense of how do
you come back and repair in the relationship?
Essentially, Yeah. Jeez.
(38:42):
Yeah, because I mean, I don't know about you.
Like, you know, I see a lot of generational things where, you
know, I love my parents. Don't get me wrong, they'll
probably listen to this later, but you know, there, there
wasn't a lot of that. Like, you know, I listened to my
parents and I did what they saidand that kind of that was it,
right? And so I think now, you know,
what we know and what we learnedis that I, I would like, you
(39:06):
know, in terms of being able to express himself, that my son is
being able to come to me in those moments also too.
And saying like that didn't makeme feel very good.
And then we can talk about it ina good way where I don't have to
like try to make my point across.
There's no point that you have to make around feelings, right?
That didn't make him feel good. That's, you know, that's for his
(39:27):
experience and it's for me to beable to kind of repair and then
also come back to that and make sure that our relationship is
still solid. That's really.
Fantastic advice. Now the other thing we hear a
lot about is sensory, the word sensory.
And there's like sensory days atthe museums and things like what
is all that? What is that?
What is it all about? Where is it coming from?
(39:48):
What does it mean? Talk to us about sensory, the
word sensory. Sensory, sensory and sensory
processing and all the things, yeah, yeah.
So that's again something that OT's are really familiar with
just with that like environmental piece is that.
All the inputs that we're getting from like a sensory
stimulation on how we make up the world comes in through like
(40:09):
our different senses, right? So like sight, taste, smell,
hearing, and then there's other ones, right?
Like in terms of introspection, like that inner feeling, those
types of things. And, and so we get tons of input
from the environment and then wemake sense of things.
For some people, there are certain things that are really
overwhelming. And so I think we know, you
(40:32):
know, for some kids, for some people, even like loud noises is
really distressing for people, different tastes and smells can
be really upsetting. And so I think everyone has
that. Everyone has a sense like we
call it a sensory profile. Everyone has that everyone can
tell you what they like and theydon't like.
You know, there's people that love, they need to have a
(40:53):
blanket on them, even if it's like super hot middle of August
and there's. Yeah, right.
I'm like I need a. Blanket people are crazy.
If they don't, I'm like, you're going to get kidnapped.
That's why. My feet are covered.
I feel like I'm going to get kidnapped.
Good to know. So, yeah, I mean there everybody
(41:15):
can tell you what they need, right?
I think the the threshold where it goes with people who
definitely have like more of a sensory processing, you know,
they call it sensory processing disorder or challenges, is that
it prevents them from functioning in their day-to-day
life. So, you know, again, like if you
have a real aversion to sound orlike light and your school has
(41:40):
like just changed all their lighting to like that really
bright white fluorescent lighting, you're not going to
want to go to school. So, so it's those types of
things that it would just work on with everyone really.
But you know, for me, I've really been in the realm with
with more like school based kidsis kind of what is their sensory
profile? What are their strengths and
(42:00):
where do they have a hard time? And can we modify the
environment? Again, not looking at the person
as the problem. Definitely we can work on some
like coping strategies around that, but what is it within
their environment or can we add some tools that could be really
helpful for them to be able to function where they're at in
life? So for kids, you know, even kids
with ADHD or just need a lot of movement stimulation, you know,
(42:24):
when they're sitting at their desk, like there's bands that
can go around the legs of the desk where they can just like
pop their feet up and down or a different cushion that they can
wobble on or can we have movement breaks or, you know,
those types of things. So, yeah, but I mean, like, I
think the word sensory and the different tools out there have
become really mainstream, which is great in the sense of, you
(42:47):
know, it's not this kind of liketaboo thing where it's like, oh,
well, you have an issue and thenyou can, you know, no, like it's
recognizing like we all need some sort of like sensory diet
or sensory regulation. I mean, I even have tools like
because we're in a hybrid environment and you're on Zoom
or Teams all day and you're needing like something to fidget
(43:08):
with or, you know, to stay focused.
So but yeah, that's essentially what we do in terms of family.
And then also, again, like with the childcare centres of what is
your programming look like so that you're able to look at the
needs of the group and making sure that they their sensory
stimulated in a way where they can participate.
Because what happens is if you're not able to, then that's
(43:30):
when you're starting to get someof the challenges in terms of,
you know, kids making choices that they're, and the reason why
they're making these choices is to get that sensory input,
right? So they might be following too
close to a kid or they might push someone because they, they
need to move. And so it's like, how are you
looking at that inclusive programming from a sensory
(43:51):
perspective to make sure that you're able to manage the group?
Yeah, what you do is so cool andso important, like to not just
take a kid who's pushing anotherkid and be like, oh, you're a
pusher, you're a bully or you'rethis or you're that and labeling
them and writing them off. Like I think not too far in the
past, like that was probably theoutcome for those kids.
Oh, you're a bad kid that oh, that Bobby's a bad kid.
(44:14):
Actually had a woman on the I don't know if you listened to
this episode with Kathy and Bayashi and it was an episode on
how to raise boys. And I think these actually 2
conversations go so hand in handbecause she was talking about
just, there's so much labeling that happened with raising young
men. And like, and not to say that
boys have sensory issues, but I think it was just that example
(44:34):
of like, maybe there's just likea more physical physicality
perhaps with like young boys and, and the boys being labeled
and like, what does that do whenyou label a boy?
Like exactly. It's, it's just so incredible
what you do and how you how you really look at the whole
picture. Yeah.
And again, like again, it's likewhat?
What happens, what happens when you label someone so early on,
(44:56):
like we've seen evidence around that, right?
It's just, it's just the nature of humans and community things.
And that's why I always come back to the, you know, when I
ask like, who's this a problem for and what is, what is the
outcome, right? Like who's this a problem for?
What are our choices to move forward?
Like I don't, I don't buy into like this can't get better
(45:20):
because it probably can. You just need a little bit of
effort and motivation around that.
And I like that you're saying like, who is this thing up, this
situation a problem for? Not who is this child a problem
for? The child is not the problem.
And I love that you said that early on too.
Like the kids. Not bad.
The kids kid. Yeah.
(45:40):
The situation might be creating complexities in different
scenarios, like complexity beingnot showing up to school.
And you know, you want your kid to get an education and be
there. So how can we The situation is
complicated, not the child. Yeah, I think that's a cool
distinction. Oh my gosh, there's so many
questions. I'm looking at the time.
Do you have any more time for me?
Of course they do, Always for. You OK?
(46:03):
Here's a question that came up in my head just now.
As we were talking about censoring things, I was thinking
about parents feeling really overwhelmed, raising my hand,
raising my hand. And I actually just interviewed
a woman, Joanna Brewster, and she was, we were just talking a
bit about this and she actually coached me through an emotional
(46:25):
intelligence tool to talk about irritability.
And like, you know, 5:00, 5/30 Iget a little bit irritable, like
bit hungry, cooking dinner, whatever.
So now I want to ask you that like sensory overload that I've,
I'll only speak from my personalexperience that I've never felt
in my life like I do as a parentsometimes where there's a lot of
(46:45):
touching and sometimes noise andlike my husband's been playing
music, which I normally like. But then that with the kids with
the siren, I'm like, put me in asensory safe space.
Like what is happening? Like why I?
Don't know the parent isn't an issue now, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And what do we do about it?
(47:06):
I. Mean locking ourselves in the
bathroom and being like, oh, I have to go #2 to your kids when
really you're just like, in. There, which is totally OK, like
again, judgement. I've told parents, I'm like, if
you need a break, like just justgo safely.
But I mean, so my theory is, youknow, before being a parent,
(47:27):
like you just had more autonomy and choice over your time on how
you regulated yourself. And again, it comes back to
like, what are you taking on in the family household as your
role of like regulating everyoneelse, right?
So, and, and all the tasks like you're, you're responsible for,
you know, feeding this small human that is also hangry and
tired and, you know, also tryingto find ways to regulate
(47:50):
themselves. So much regulation.
So much regulation all the time,everywhere, but you know, like
you're the person, you're the primary person that's doing that
for the household. So I think, you know, and it's
just like all the senses all at once that are like super
intense. And so for someone, you know, I
totally resonate with that because actually we were in the
car, we went to go pick up my inlaws yesterday from the
(48:12):
airport and then, you know, theywere hungry and so we were
waiting for the take out and then we got the takeout.
And so it was like me, my husband, my son, who was singing
something and then, you know, my2 in laws in the back and like
my son was asking me a question.And then my husband was telling
me like to be like it was all clear because I was backing up.
(48:33):
And then my father-in-law was like, just look at the backup
Cam because I wasn't in my car. And I was like, everyone is
talking to me, please stop talking, you know?
And then my mother-in-law said, sorry, I'm like, why are you
sorry? You didn't say anything?
So I totally resonate with like it's just like all at once and
you're trying to think, right. So it's in, it's like you're,
you're, you're over stimulating and you're overloading.
(48:55):
You're like thinking part of your brain.
And so as a parent, it's like itcould be the screaming, it could
be the toy, it could be the touching if you know, the
constant questioning. And it's just, it's it, it does
it like rattles for some, not everyone actually.
But, you know, I think most of us as parents like it rattles
your nervous system, whereas before being a parent, like you
(49:17):
just had a little bit more control over that environment.
Yeah. OK, right.
Yeah, because you can remove yourself.
But when you have these little dependents who, yeah, might
cause harm to themselves or others, you're like, well, I
can't really step out. Yeah, for sure.
OK, So in those moments, like I do tell parents, you know, in
terms of like being able to likekind kind of come back down,
(49:40):
really you're just telling yourself like this is temporary.
And then having a bit of like when it is safe to do so or like
when, you know, This is why I tell parents that, you know, you
really should have some things within the week that you look
forward to that's on your own, whether it's like just even
going upstairs on your own, shutting the door and reading a
book or going for a walk. Like those things will help
(50:00):
balance your nervous system in terms of the day-to-day.
But you know, when you're in thethick of it and you can't,
you're like, I'm just going to peace out.
You can't do that. So just telling yourself like
this is temporary, it will end, you will move on and then just
try and have a supportive strategy to be able to come back
down. And then you take the batteries
(50:21):
out of the fire truck. Yes, yeah, you say you have no
more batteries ever again. But a hex on the person who gave
you the fire truck. No sounds.
But then it brings them so much joy.
And then when you are regulated,so sweet.
What a great toy. And toying.
(50:41):
You're not making dinner and your husband's not playing the
guitar. You know it's fine.
Playing or you don't have misophonia like I do when your
husband's shooting around you for our anniversary.
I heard about the chewing now like 3 times.
Me. Yeah.
Do I bring it up that much? You.
You talk about it often. It's definitely something that
(51:02):
bothers you, yeah. That's totally something that
bothers me, which is OK Got to stop chewing.
He also made it as our anniversary post this year,
which was very sweet. He posted a photo of us and he
says like something about seven years.
I'm like, sorry about my chewing.
Yeah, there you go. From an occupational therapist,
we have to talk about who's thisa problem for me?
(51:23):
It's a huge problem for me. Yeah, I'm boring everyone on the
podcast with this. It's my truth chewing.
You bring your husband on to thepodcast and be like, let's talk
about your chewing. Yeah, versus the the emotional
episode we did about his health journey, I'll bring him on and
I'll just like beat him down thenext time.
Yeah, let's talk about your touring, OK.
(51:46):
Oh my gosh, I had another 5000 questions, but for another time.
For another time. Um.
Tracy, first of all, thank you for this.
You're incredible. Just so informative.
I feel like I learned so much and when I'm cooking dinner
tonight 1st I'm going to go out and BBQ so everything's better
outside. Everything is better outside.
(52:07):
So that's good. And I will just say if I feel
overwhelmed like this is temporary.
So thanks for that. Now she just seemed like such a
wise, wise individual, but what is something that you're trying
to still figure out? And I pretend I'm wise.
No, I think it. Yeah.
I think through my life experiences, I've become wise.
Things that I'm trying to figureout, to be honest with you, I
(52:30):
like I am walking the same journey as everyone else of
trying to figure out like how can I not only be a great mom
and through my own journey of healing to regulate myself and
also like role modeling how I dothat to my child.
But also again, like advocating and being there for the
(52:51):
community that I'm in, the work that I do, the systems that I'm
a part of to be able to say, youknow, in a professional evidence
based, rational way of, you know, we should be moving in
this direction. And if we do, we'll have
healthier communities, which is what everybody wants.
So that's what I'm trying to figure out every day.
How can we help you? How can like humans parents?
(53:12):
If someone listens to this podcast, they're like a pretty
cool person, obviously, but they're like, you know, they're
really, in all seriousness, there's somebody who really
values like growth and development and what can we do
as parents to create the conditions that other parents
can thrive? Our kids can thrive?
Like, what are you? I don't know how can we help you
(53:33):
in that mission of yours. I mean, the question of like
asking people just what they need, like, and I think that
sounds really cliche, but I mean, I even ask the kids that,
like I asked my own kid that. And then any kids that I work
with, like, you know, if they'rehaving a moment, it's not about
like, what's wrong with you? Like what do you need in this
moment? And I think, you know, if we ask
(53:54):
that of parents and really dig into it in terms of like, it's
not just about like, well, sometimes it's about like the
scheduling and you know, workingfrom home and being flexible
things. But it's like, what do you need
from like a timetable perspective, a projects
perspective, You know what, where are you in capacity?
(54:15):
Or sometimes it's just like the ability to give people
permission of, you know, saying,I know you're at like a 70%
right now and that's totally fine.
Like I've done that with staff too.
It's like it's really hard rightnow.
Don't put so much pressure on yourself.
Like you're doing great. So I think it just comes down to
like, what do you need? Yeah, I like that.
(54:36):
Just asking each other, human tohuman.
Human to human. I love that.
And where can everybody find you?
So to clarify, because people might be like, wait a minute,
how do you have all the time in the day to do all these
different things? So you work in the community
through in the BC healthcare world, Yeah, as well as working
in a private practice, WoodlandsCollective, Correct.
(54:59):
Yeah, so you can find me there. Yeah, I'm, I'm listed on The
Woodlands Collective page. And yeah, Tracy at
woodlandscollective.ca. You can definitely reach out to
me at anytime. Perfect, but they cannot book
you directly in the community unfortunately.
You can through Woodlands. Yeah, I have.
I have availability through Woodlands.
(55:20):
Through like if they want to come find you at your office.
Yeah. No, no, but they can find you.
Wildens collective for parents kids if you just want help with
anything, navigating systems andall that.
Highly highly recommend Tracy. Just hearing her talk about her
work as friends. It's a man.
(55:41):
You are detailed girl. Like people are getting a lot
from you. So thank you for the beautiful
work that you do and supporting parents and having such a
commitment to your craft. You're amazing.
Thank you. Thanks for having me and this is
great. Thanks for coming out.
OK. Thank you so much for listening
and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
(56:04):
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.
Welcome back to the All Figured Out podcast.
My name is Andrea Barr. Thank you so much for joining me
for another episode this week. I got to sit down with Tracy
Adams, who is an amazing occupational therapist.
She's an educator, she's a mom, and she's just a very lovely,
wonderful human being. We had a really cool
conversation about parenting, healthcare, the system, as in
(00:24):
the healthcare system, the education system, and everything
in between. Tracy became a mom in that early
days of the pandemic and she experienced being basically on
the front lines of the healthcare during the pandemic,
and she's extremely passionate about supporting families and
just helping them cope and enjoylife better, more, whatever you
(00:47):
want to say. We talk about in this episode
occupational therapists and whatthey actually do because I think
a lot of people don't know what they do, myself included.
I actually learned a lot in thisepisode and I've been friends
with Tracy for a bit now. We also talked about how sensory
profiles can impact yours or your children's day-to-day life
and why Co regulation is so important, but also potentially
(01:09):
needs to rebrand because it's again, another kind of confusing
word. Tracy breaks down how
understanding your own needs andyour child's needs can really
shift everything. We also just talk about, you
know, strategies and ways. Just find a bit more calm in
some of the chaos that you mightfeel some feelings around
irritability or overwhelm, especially being working
(01:29):
parents. So if you've ever felt confused
by the healthcare system, overwhelmed by parenting
expectations, or just unsure about how to help your child and
yourself at the same time, then this episode is definitely for
you. Enjoy.
You're listening to the All Figured Out podcast.
I'm your host, Andrea Barr. I'm a career coach for parents,
(01:52):
mom of two, and a self-proclaimed expert at
winging it. After 10 years in the corporate
world, two major career pivots, and navigating life with kids,
I've learned one thing. No parent has it all figured
out, and that's OK. Here, we're all about growing
personally and professionally while keeping family time
sacred. You'll get practical tips,
(02:13):
career strategies and musings onlife, plus guest experts to help
us fill in the gaps. So grab a coffee or hide in your
car for some anytime. We're about to figure out this
work, life and parenting stuff out together.
OK, third times the charm. Tracy Adams, welcome to the All
Figured Out podcast. Thanks for having me.
(02:35):
Thanks for being here. We've said this three times.
There must be magnets in the world right now.
Big tides and low tides, full moon.
I don't know, some happening, but this is our third time
recording the first couple minutes of this.
So, you know, I think it's goingto get better each time.
So pleased to have you here, Tracy.
You are a fantastic service provider as an occupational
(02:58):
therapist. I know you've studied
kinesiology. I know that you have a million
certifications and there's so much that I'm, I want to ask you
about today, including things todo with occupational therapy.
First question will be what is an occupational therapist?
And we're going to talk about Coregulation and parenting and
being a working parent and all the things.
(03:18):
But before we even get into any of that, I am super curious to
hear about your experience into becoming a mother.
I bet before even becoming a mother you've worked with lots
of families and parents and thenyou yourself had the experience
of joining this club. So tell us a bit about your
story into becoming a mother. Yeah, for sure.
(03:40):
So I was one of kind of my groupof friends that had kids later
on in life. You know, I had gone to school
and gone to grad school and thenwanted to travel.
And so I'm really supported to do that, which was great.
And then when we decided to havea family, you know, COVID kind
of happened. So I did a lot of like
(04:00):
upskilling, learning about what it was to be pregnant through
COVID and then parenting throughCOVID through isolation and
things. So but that was kind of my
journey for the last, you know, four years, still figuring it
out and things are getting better and better.
But yeah, that's kind of where I'm at.
So yeah, my, my son is, yeah, kind of the littlest one out of
(04:22):
all kind of the kid group friends.
But I think that's OK. Oh yeah, they can look after
him. I find when there's older kids
around you have to do less parenting right?
Yes, that's a very good point. And what did you mean by
upskilling? So were you were like learning
about parenting and isolation? Like is that what you mean you
(04:42):
were studying? You know, yeah, I just felt like
the lack of the village, right? Like I don't really have
anything else to compare it to. And I kept like trying to tell
myself that I was like, it'll befine.
I don't have anything to compareit to, you know, so I don't know
anything different. And then like afterwards I was
like, oh, I really need to pay attention to myself and pay
(05:03):
attention to my family in terms of my own mental well-being
because like, it was not, it wasnot normal.
Like people didn't come over, you know, the playground was
taped up, the coffee shops were,you know, closed.
And so it was just, it just was an experience that I didn't
really know what it was going tobe like.
And then at the same time, like knowing kind of what we know now
just about postpartum and what it takes like in that 4th
(05:28):
trimester and that I kind of hadto figure that out in a in a
different way, I guess so. Yeah.
How did that experience go for you?
Was it, did you, did you notice that gap?
Like, even though you had nothing to to contrast it with,
like did were you like intuitively like?
There's something missing here. A little bit, but I think it was
(05:49):
more like in reflection, like I think I'm working on that still
like day-to-day about kind of, you know, what went on, but
you're just such in survival mode, like regardless at that
time, whether there's a pandemicor not.
So, but I just found that the ability to problem solve, I felt
like I needed to do a little bitmore on my own or with my
partner essentially. So yeah, this.
(06:11):
Experience like being in healthcare, being in healthcare
leader during COVID, you were out.
Wild. It was wild.
I mean, things were changing, you know, all the time.
And yeah, like people were just,there's just a lot of fear,
like, you know, you know, reallya lot of stress.
And my role was to really try and make sure that people had
(06:33):
information we could still deliver care while trying to
reassure people where I really didn't have all the answers.
And again, like, things would change, you know, things change
all the time and things change really quickly.
But at the same time, during COVID, there were some days
where things would change withinhours of us doing things.
So yeah, so it was, it was definitely a wild time.
(06:56):
I think myself and my healthcarecolleagues definitely have a
different bond that than we usedto just living through that
together. And yeah, it was just wild
times. Yeah.
Trauma bond, right? Yeah.
Yeah. And explain exactly what it is
you do in healthcare, what you were doing during the during
COVID. Like what?
What do you mean by, you know, it was wild and we were
(07:17):
delivering care. What does that mean?
Yeah. So I work in community and I
lead a community mental health and substance use team.
And so we how it works is, you know, we oversee kind of like a
neighborhood area. So any clients that live in that
area would come and see us. So we see anyone anywhere
between like 607 hundred clientsat like actively at a time.
(07:42):
And so we have case managers that work with them and stuff
and they would come into the office or we go and see them.
And yeah, so during COVID also too, just making sure that they
were OK and they were getting what they need.
Also to you, you know, through the world of going through
virtual and hybrid, like a lot of our clients didn't have
access to some of those things as well as like not access to
reliable Wi-Fi and things. So, you know, just trying to be
(08:04):
really creative in that sense tomake sure that they were also
really well taken care of. Geez, I didn't even.
Yeah, that's a huge piece that we just all took for granted.
Like, oh, if you can do your jobvirtually, do it.
But can you do your job virtually?
Do you have the means to do yourjob virtually?
Is doing a job that you could even do virtually?
Like if you're, yeah, if it's, if you're a lower wage earner,
like is, you know, is that job? I don't know, I can't even think
(08:27):
of an example, but I yeah, that's, that's huge.
Like, I can only imagine that creativity that you were working
with. And so you are an occupational
therapist? Yeah.
Now I like to think I'm one withthe service providers.
I know I love a service provider.
I can say I know a bit about what an OTA is, and my husband
(08:50):
and I have spelt spent time in hospitals and things like that
with his health. But I'm going to be honest, I
wouldn't know the textbook definition of an occupational
therapist. And I think a lot of people
listening would also be like, OK, so you help people with
their occupation. Yeah, just like the, the like
classic like conversation starters like oh, so you work
(09:13):
with occupation. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
What kind of? Occupations, do you?
If you were to give it a new name, what would you give it?
I mean, I wouldn't necessarily give it like a new name because
it's all I know of. So yeah.
But I mean, in terms of a definition, yeah.
It is hard. I think being an occupational
(09:33):
therapist, not a lot of people know who we are unless you,
like, directly work with us and then you just know everything
about them. But essentially, you know, we're
in the school of rehab science. We work alongside or learn and
train alongside like physios andspeech language pathologists and
kind of, you know what I try to tell people your story and three
examples. So occupational therapists do
(09:55):
help with, you know, we use the technical term occupation, but
like it's really around functionand just how you live your
day-to-day life, you know. So the examples that I give
people are, you know, if somebody had a stroke and you
don't have a lot of range of motion within your, you know,
one of your arms, like your physio might work with you with
like increasing that range of motion.
(10:17):
Your OT would help you how to put a shirt on essentially with
that limited motion. So it's, those are the kind of
like the daily living tasks. And so when I relate it to
parenting and to just, you know,your overall mental health, it's
like how you're coping, right? And so that's a lot of work that
I do with parents now is just parents who have a lot of
questions, doubt around like coregulation or how their
(10:38):
children are developing emotionally.
Like we talk through that. So I'm able to, you know, tell
them what to worry about, not worry about, keep an eye on and
then come up with a game plan onhow they can correlate with
their children. So it's just more manageable.
So a lot of anxiety management, stress management, you know,
communication, increasing vocabulary around emotions and
(10:59):
feelings. So that's what I do as an OT
with parents. Now, OK, so you have a kid, so I
don't even want to say it doesn't have to be a kid who has
a diagnosis of some sort, but perhaps that's easy.
So they are diagnosed on the with autism spectrum disorder
and they've got and maybe they're they have physical
(11:20):
limitations, perhaps they have verbal limitations.
So they've got a speech playing with language pathologists.
Perhaps they also do work with the physio if that's like part
of what's going on for them. But then beyond that, what
you're trying to do is say, OK, how are you as a family
navigating this? Just in general?
Like are you guys OK with like navigating the quote UN quote
(11:42):
system? How are you all feeling about
this diagnosis? Is that kind of your
jurisdiction? Yeah.
And, you know, something that I really play into is just like
the environment, right? And so I'm a firm believer of
like health communities and looking at everything and just,
you know, it's what the role thefamily plays, right?
So the role of a kid is to be a cab.
So really it's about, you know, playing and going to school and
(12:05):
having friends. And all parents want that for
their kids. So I mean, they want they want
to be able to, to do that regardless of diagnosis or
regardless of like neurodivergent and things like
that. And all kids are super
different. And I find even now and I don't
know. If this is a product of COVID or
(12:25):
not. To be honest with you, or but I
just find the emotional regulation and the emotions of
kids that that's it's harder andharder for us as working parents
to have just the like the mentalspace to be able to know what's
what's happening and what's not.So yeah, I help with just, you
(12:46):
know, role development in terms of families and like, you know,
things of fitting in like inclusive childcare spaces.
You know, and every parent hatesgetting that phone call being
like, Oh, my kid hit somebody today or they bit someone or
they're like at risk of, you know, not being able to be
managed. You know, I, I very much firmly
believe that's like a, that's like a whole environment and
(13:08):
community challenge. That's not a kid challenge.
So that's yeah. So that's what I kind of do and
work with families around is just, you know, how can we work
together on very specific goals so that kids can be the kids and
that parents and then their teachers, whether that's at
daycare or at school, are able to help them thrive in those
environments that they're in. I think that's such a cool
(13:31):
occupation that you have. I think it's so the approach is
so interesting to me and it reminds me like I could liken it
to something like osteopathy, which I appreciate so much as
bodywork because their philosophy is not just looking.
You come in and you said my kneehurts.
They're not going to just massage your knee for an hour.
They're like, OK, how does this relate to your feet?
How does this relate to your neck?
(13:52):
And they look at the whole body.And that's what I just so value
about that. And that's the like how I'm
relating to like occupational therapy where instead of just
saying we're going to look at one tiny piece of the ecosystem,
no, you're saying we're going tolook at the whole environment.
We're not just looking at the kid and labeling this kid, OK,
They are on the autistic spectrum and that's that you're
like, no, they're a kid. You know, they, they just have,
(14:15):
they have differences, difference of abilities, like
they're no better, they're no worse.
And we have to look at the parents and how they're coping
and how they're handling. If you look at the, like you
said, the school and the environment, the sensory things
that they're exposed to the, theworld in which it's not always
set up for them. And I just think that it's so
frigging cool and so important. And it kind of makes me sad
(14:37):
that, um, your practice is kind of misunderstood.
I don't know, maybe I'm. Very.
Am I right in? That I mean, it's just not well
known. Like that's a thing, right?
Like, so that's where, you know,I think OT make really great
advocates as well, just because we do look at the system, right?
And that's kind of what I reallyenjoy the variety of where the
(14:59):
differences of where I work is. Like I can sit in certain places
and understand where the gaps are, you know, because like
different, different agencies and things, they don't
necessarily talk with each other, right?
Like the childcare system doesn't talk to the healthcare
system, which doesn't talk to the school of them.
Like they're all separate. So it's trying to really, you
know, bring them together, but also promote some understanding.
(15:21):
Like I don't think just the general public, but definitely
parents, like there's, there's not, they're not like for a lack
of wanting to know. There's just a lack of
understanding and information ofhow we all fit into this picture
and then how we all can work through it within our influence
because we can't solve and fix everything.
(15:41):
But by little by little, you know, try and do the best for
our kids, but then also to making sure that we're using our
voice to make sure we tell kind of our constituents and people
saying like, hey, this is not working for me in my community.
Most of the time they don't evenknow, like, to be honest,
they're just people like us. So I think it's really
important. So yeah, just I think OTA's have
(16:03):
a really great lens on being able to see different systems in
different environments and beingable to work through that for
sure. Yeah, that's so incredible.
What about the person who you know?
I think that there's something to be said.
I don't know how to phrase this.What about the people who fall
in the middle? And it's not to say that those
who have, say, children or they themselves have like pretty
(16:26):
extreme needs, but what about those people?
That's like the middle child syndrome where it's like there's
this group of people who are kind of sitting in the middle
and there's like a bit of suffering going on.
Nothing major, nothing wildly physical, maybe nothing visible,
maybe nothing that obvious, but they're kind of sitting in the
middle. And no GP unless they're really
cool and really good would be like, you know what, you might
(16:47):
really benefit from seeing an occupational therapist.
But so they're kind of just humming along.
Like what do you say to that to those people who are in the
middle that might be like, do you think that it could be
beneficial for that group of people who somebody who has a
mild learning? Challenge.
Yeah, totally. And I think that's what some of
the challenges to rate is that Ireally recognize that, you know,
I think pediatricians are reallywell aware of OT as a
(17:10):
profession. Your family doctor, General
practitioner probably doesn't. And so, yeah, I mean, for what I
understand, you really don't geta referral to a pediatrician
unless you like your family doctor can't meet your needs,
right? So there's not a ton of plans
like extended health that have OT.
So it's comes through different funding bodies, right?
(17:30):
So yeah, like autism funding units, like that's where you
would get access. But anyone can access an OT
privately and you know, pay privately just like we do, you
know, for people who have the resources and are privileged
enough like you, you can look around and, and again, that's
another way of understanding like your healthcare system is
like choices you have, right? There's other choices outside of
(17:53):
the public healthcare realm. I'm not saying that it's good or
a bad thing, but I definitely think, you know, anyone can look
up an occupational therapist andlook up what their specialties
are and definitely refer or get in touch.
And so that's, you know, that's who I'm technically seeing quite
a lot of the time is people thatare, you know, they're working
(18:17):
on a diagnosis or they're unsureor they're just on the cusp and
their family doctor is saying, you know, oh, we'll just keep
watching it until we get to school.
Meanwhile, the family is really struggling.
Like the family and the childcare provider, they're
really struggling. And then, you know, in this day
and age, you got 2 working parents.
Like how on earth are you supposed to take time off work
and go to these appointments? Are you getting these your phone
(18:38):
calls? So those are the cells.
Yeah, the phone calls. Voicemails.
Yeah. Like, can you please call me
back? I have to talk to you about your
child. Like, you know, nobody wants to
get that phone call. And it's just, it can feel so
isolating to feel like something's wrong when you are
in that middle stage. And, you know, so I mean, I of
(19:01):
course, like, I recommend to reach out, like even just to ask
questions about what's possible.But I mean, I think for all of
us, sometimes we all just need alittle bit of help and, and you
know, where we're at in life. I mean, again, I'm a huge
believer in like counseling and therapy and just all sorts of
different ways that we can all just limit the amount of
(19:22):
suffering we're going through. Yes.
And I love there's so much I want to pull out of like what
you've been saying, like the power of choice is so important.
And we of course have to recognize the privilege in that.
And if we kind of we push past that for a second and we look at
the choices and options we have given our privilege, there's so
much like, I think it's so cool because if you have the
(19:44):
opportunity to say, even just gothrough privately or use your
healthcare spending account and just ask the questions like
you're adding to your village. Like you and I, before we hit
record, we were just talking briefly about like your village
and that sort of thing. And it's and there's just
something to be said about like choosing.
It's kind of like chosen family.Like you've got, if you have a
family that's wonderful and thenyou've got your friends, but
(20:04):
it's like you have to have different people in your corner
for different things. And this could just be one more
of those pieces. And then on the topic of choice.
One thing that you were talking about, and we were talking
about, of course, over a casual dinner with our friend Georgina,
because of course we start talking about like intense
parenting life things because that's just who three of us are.
But we were talking about, I think I was just I was
(20:28):
peppering, of course, with questions as I do.
And I was like, OK, So what doesthe OT do?
And you're like, it gives you. What did you say?
There was something about, like,really stuck with me.
You're saying you learn what your choices and your options
are because you were saying thatthere's, you know, you weren't
giving any sort of detail, but you're like, you know, I'm
working with a family. They just didn't even know what
options were available to them. Yeah.
(20:49):
So it's like, it's like these stepping stones, like, OK, you
hire Someone Like You who would be no judgment.
And there's no judgment of beinglike, I don't know if, like, I
really need your help. And like, I'm embarrassed
reaching out because what if this is overkill?
But who cares, right? Like, what's the worst that
could happen? But you say, no, you guys are
doing great. Like go see a counselor or
whatever. Yeah.
Then you were saying it's like you can unlock all these options
(21:11):
for what the people have. Like, we all just think that
it's like you just have to wait for this referral.
Like you're just waiting for a referral, right?
Yeah, yeah, Orange is empoweringby choice, right?
Like I think we live in a world where, you know, and this is
what I teach a lot of the the staff that I work with is don't
assume that inherently our clients are supposed to trust us
(21:34):
100%, right. And so I think there's still
some of that narrative of, you know, somebody tells you there's
an issue and you trust it or youjust follow that pathway.
And there's so many people out there where I think, you know,
we mislead them through trust. And that's why I, I love being
an OT where I just get to ask, you know, like, who's this an
(21:55):
issue for, you know, So again, like between like the school or
daycare and the family, like, you know, sometimes the daycare
will be maybe pushing for a little bit more in terms of, you
know, developmentally, like the potty training question and the
bottle weaning question comes upall the time.
And it's like, well, are you as a family ready to do that?
Is it the right time? Do you have the capacity or is
(22:19):
the daycare asking you to do this?
Like, is this the developmentally related
challenge? Yes or no?
Right. So I, I just, I put that back on
the people asking me the question because I feel there's
a lot of pressure, especially now for parents to just make
these decisions and go with whatthe experts are telling them.
(22:40):
And I'm not saying they're wrong, like everybody is
well-intentioned, right? They just want the best.
But I, I truly believe that, youknow, sometimes we don't get the
questions that parents really want to ask because of this
just, you know, trusting of whatthey should be working on.
Essentially, Yeah. OK, can we use that as an
(23:00):
example? And I said, you like using
examples and things. Let's use the example of let's
combine Georgina's world, our friend Georgina of Woodlands
Collective. You guys work together.
Now. I can't remember what we said in
the intro and what we didn't because we've recorded it three
times. So Tracy works works with our
friend, friend of the podcast Georgina Vishnevsky.
They work together at Woodlands Collective.
(23:21):
So let's combine both your worlds.
So this is this is both of you because you're getting from the
daycare. OK, we're going to move them
into the preschool room. I don't actually know this is
how it works, but whatever. Humor me.
OK, we're going to move your kidinto the preschool room.
But in the preschool room, they can't nap.
So you have to drop your nap andOh yeah, we have to move them to
(23:42):
the preschool room because we'vegot a daycare kid coming here or
whatever it is. So you're being told in order
for your kid to have childcare, you've got to drop the nap and
the family like, ooh, it doesn'tfeel quite right.
What do you say to that? How can one navigate that?
Like, what are your rights? Is that even the right question?
(24:02):
Like what can you do? Yeah, well, first of all, my
e-mail is like to Georgina and being like, can we talk about
this just in terms of her you like again to get her
perspective on on sleep and things and she probably would
have, you know, a number of questions and and different
suggestions and things. I mean again, I would look at
like environment with the choices are right.
So I mean, does it have to be nap?
(24:24):
Can it be quiet time? Can it be like a quiet time with
like a sensory regulating activity?
Can it be gradual? You know, what is the meeting
point in the middle between family and and the daycare staff
because it does happen, right? Like that does happen in terms
of, you know, licensed daycares and childcare centres.
They have age-related licensing that they have to adhere to.
(24:47):
So again, understanding kind of where that's coming from like as
a system too, they don't the operators don't have the ability
to change licensing, right. So it's just that it's coaching
the parents through about this is what's happening.
It might feel icky. What are your choices?
What are you comfortable with? And that's kind of how we would
(25:08):
go about that, yeah. I love analogies and this my
next analogy for you is it kind of reminds me of when you're, I
work with a lot of people who are in the career space, they're
transitioning jobs. A lot of people come to me who
have been fired, they're workingwith lawyers.
And you kind of screamed to me as if like you're that counsel,
like the you can call you up andbe like, what are my rights and
(25:31):
choices year, which is what you do when you call a lawyer.
You're like, Hey, what, what aremy options?
Because sometimes you don't evenknow what the options are.
Like we were saying before. So I love that.
Yeah. And usually it's in a time where
things are like really emotionally escalated, right.
Like things can be really quite stressful and challenging.
And, you know, there's a sense of just again, feeling like
(25:52):
alone or frustrated. And so it's it's just nice to
sometimes have a sounding board about kind of like, OK, you
know, yes, totally entitled to feel angry, upset, frustrated.
And then here's here's what I'm thinking in terms of a plan,
right? So just like takes that mental
load off? Of people for sure.
I love every time I talk to you about this, you use the word
(26:14):
plan. You're like, well, we'll create
a plan for them and like we likewrite out a plan.
I'm like, oh God, that sounds nice.
Having someone who's not you andyour partner come up with like
just some suggestion, a plan. I'm like, that sounds so nice.
So we don't make up the plan ourselves.
Yeah, it's one of my favorite things to do.
Like that's kind of what like sowhen I work with families
through, yeah, the collectivist,you know, you take their goal
(26:36):
and you basically just, I write out that's what OTC's do.
They grade kind of the activity.So there's different phases of,
you know, when you're ready because also too, like you
shouldn't be starting something when you're not ready, right?
So I tell families that all the time and like, don't start potty
training when you've got people coming to visit or you're
getting a new dog or like, don'tdo that like.
(26:56):
Dog. Yeah, pick a weekend or
something where you like actually have time and space.
And so then and then I write outincluding like scripts.
So I find that parents find thatreally helpful, especially with
that emotional regulation piece.It's like, what do I say in
these moments when my kids like,losing their mind, you know,
(27:17):
just in terms of like a game plan.
And then it can be consistent between you and your partner and
the daycare staff, right? Like, it's just you're
constantly saying the same things, which is always helpful
for learning and stuff. So.
Yeah. So and who doesn't love to like
go so see you then or approaching the daycare and
you're all like flustered and feelings, big feelings, big, big
(27:38):
feelings. And then you're going and you're
like, well, this is just how I feel.
But like to have Someone Like You, to have support to give you
scripts to be like, this is where I'm coming from.
Just to have like taken a beat and to have some like language
empowered language like that just sounds real nice.
Trying to think so many areas. I feel like I could use your
help. I'll be I'll be in touch.
OK, Co regulation. We hear this word phrase.
(28:00):
I don't know the part word all the time.
What does it mean? What on earth does that mean?
Why is it such a weird word? I think it's funny.
I know, right? It's like you got regulation and
coagulation. And yeah, I mean, I love this
topic because I find, well, first of all, we'll go with your
first question before I dive into I don't remember.
(28:22):
The first question was. Well, just like Co regulation,
like in the parenting space is like how are you?
Like how are you? And I'm going to use the word
again, Co regulating with your child.
So how are you connecting or attuning to your child?
So if you are able to regulate yourself, then the science is
proving that you can also regulate your child like through
(28:44):
just your own managing your own self.
So that's like 2 right Co regulation.
The kind of the premises is thatif you escalate with your child
emotionally, your child will continue to escalate.
And, and so, and that doesn't help anyone because just how the
brain works, you know, it just, you pick in your, your kind of
survival mode and then there's no thinking that happens kind of
(29:05):
in the frontal lobe, right. So that doesn't help the child,
that doesn't help you. So I mean, that's, that's kind
of my first cue. Umm, And then I just find like,
you know, again, in today's world, women are asked to be the
Co regulars of like everyone else around them, like and and I
don't think that's, you know, I don't know if it's anyone's
(29:28):
fault or anything like that, butI just.
Have fun, patriarchy. Like, you know, like this again,
it speaks to that whole mental load thing.
It's like where you're supposed to be the rational one at all
times as the parent, as the partner, as the, you know, in
the sandwich generation with your own parents, like at work,
(29:51):
like, you know, and, and so I find the word Co regulation
really interesting. And I've learned this a lot
through even my own therapy journey is like, you know, it's
it's not OK to think that you'regoing to be Co regulating with
other people. Like it's totally fine to be Co
recognized parent. That's that's not the case.
But for us to be continually perpetuating this kind of
(30:12):
generation of like I as a woman need to Co regulate with
everyone else. Like trying to change that a
little bit and I, you know, we're all still working on that.
But yeah, so that's why I really, really appreciate kind
of this work that I do, is that not only can I empower families
and parents, but also just in our own selves, like being able
(30:34):
to regulate our own selves. And then also having those
boundaries around like what's OKin terms of the expectation or
the pressure that we're supposedto be regulating the rest of the
world essentially? So when we say Co regulation and
you see it on TikTok, Instagram is a real we're talking
predominantly about Co regulation between parent, a
(30:55):
parent and child relationship. And we're not talking about like
we need to be, but this is actually my book.
So we don't. We actually aren't meant to be
Co regulating with our spouse, but that's not really what the
term means. No, I mean, that's not where I'm
I'm taking it. So essentially, yeah.
Like just having that, you know,as a role as a parent, I'm Co
(31:16):
regulating with my child so thatthey can develop emotionally in
a good way. Whereas I think in the world
today, there is this expectationfrom women inherently that, you
know, we're to be Co regulating everyone else, right, Managing
everyone else's emotions and stress.
And and then, you know, on the days that we're having a really
(31:38):
hard time, then we're the ones that are kind of that is being
like, well, what's wrong with you?
Right. It's like, well, yes, like I,
you know, you're managing everything else.
So it's just it's about, you know, changing that narrative
and changing the expectation around that.
You know, women are supposed to be Co regulating everyone else.
It's like, no, you're responsible for yourself.
(31:58):
Like I'm not the one to carry your stress and regulating and
help you through it. It's like I will support you
through it, but it's not my job to then be the other person
that's to to regulate you. Right, OK, so it's empathy.
It sounds like maybe it's empathy coming out with love,
whatever. But empathy is not Co regulation
because you are not like empathyis like I, I see you, I hear
(32:24):
you. I'm here, but you're not Co
regulating would be like I'm going to ICU escalating.
So I'm gonna work my damnest to like regulate myself so hard so
that I can bring you down. Like there's an outcome attached
to it to try to like bring the other person down.
But if we're constantly doing that, there's burnout versus
(32:44):
empathy. And we have empathy with our
kids too. But like, it's more like you're
creating a safe boundary. Yeah, for sure.
Yeah. And yeah, So I mean, I think
what happens to when you're outside of that parenting role
with the regulation is that you end up holding in all your own
stress, right? So you're not, you're also not
(33:07):
participating in a safe space where you can then also say, I'm
feeling stressed or this is what's happening for me because
you're not wanting to impact theother person.
And so that's that's also not, Ithink not OK, it's not healthy.
It's not. And I think this is where we see
like, you know, some of the outbursts and mom rage and that
kind of stuff among a variety ofthings.
But that's, that's kind of what I'm, you know, looking at is,
(33:30):
well, what kind of boundaries are you also setting around your
ability to regulate and then also be able to voice that in a
safe way? Yeah.
Do you work with parents like, oh, sorry, obviously you work
with parents. Do you work with parents as
being the client? Like do you?
Have when they don't tend to come to me that way, but that
that sometimes does happen, right, because they go hand in
(33:53):
hand, like they come like families come to me with a
challenge they're experiencing, but they're also stressed,
right? They're so I all, you know, it's
really interesting. They'll often include that
question when I'm meeting peoplefor the first time.
It's like, so how are you, like,how are you doing?
You know, in in all my plans also too, I also recommend that,
you know, parents have their ownscheduled alone time or things
(34:17):
that they're working on outside of that, you know, so I think
it's really hard and to separateyourself from that.
Again, it becomes like a time and space and capacity issue.
But definitely like, you know, we end up putting in some of
those self-care things because that's also being able to
regulate yourself. So then you can be prepared for
the other hard things that come.Yes, OK, I saw something
(34:40):
recently this weekend that was one of those hard, hard
situations to watch that you completely have empathy for.
It was at the playground. There was a child, it was just
not having fun anymore, just losing it, just losing it.
And with the most love in my heart, I shared this because I
want to know like, you know, if I get to that point, like what,
(35:01):
what on earth do you do? Like talk about examples.
So the word that in the men's mouth were, you know, stop
crying, why don't you start walking home?
And the kid was like, no, I wantto walk with you.
Which then kind of breaks your heart cause they were clearly
there was just so upset. And then the mom said, again,
(35:22):
this is not coming from a place of judgment, but I could see how
quickly this could escalate. The mom was like, well, nobody
wants to walk with you if you'recrying, like.
That yeah, yeah. And it you know, I don't know, I
don't even know if I should brought this up, but it's like
it really broke my heart becauseI felt so deeply for the mom
because she was clearly they were clearly having such a hard
(35:45):
time. And there is like clearly that
double escalation of both of them.
Like how do you prevent that? How do you talk about Co
regulating? Like how can I don't know what's
going on in that situation? If you hear that story, what is
happening there for? This family, yeah, One I think
we can all say. I mean, I can say like, we've
(36:07):
all been there, like we've all had, like we're not perfect.
Humans are not meant to be perfect.
And not perfect parents, you know, where you're just like not
your best self for whatever reason.
And it can happen anywhere. The most important thing I think
in that situation, like you can't go back and change it
essentially. And I, I don't necessarily like,
(36:28):
I think we do as parents a lot of really good work to try to
prevent your, you know, those things from happening.
So like, I'm not going to say those things and it just
happens, right? So the most important part that
I tell parents is like don't, don't avoid it and don't beat
yourself up, but like come back to it.
So, you know, after the maybe they get home or, you know,
(36:49):
things have settled down, you know, to be able to like sit
down with your child and say, you know, what happened at the
park That was really hard. Like I saw how hard and how sad
you were. I was really sad and angry too.
And I'm really sorry I said that.
So it's just, it's that kind of like repair cycle.
So it's just acknowledging like things like that will happen.
(37:13):
It's what what can we learn fromthem?
And then how do you repair that?And that's kind of a bit of the
cycle with Co regulation as well.
Yeah. And does that.
OK, so the first thing that cameto mind was, are you just
bringing it back up? And then are you creating a core
memory? This is crazy, I know.
But this is where like a mom's brain goes.
So by bringing it back up, are you like solidifying and like
(37:37):
actually, what if they didn't even hear it?
And then you're telling them, you know, or you're reminding
them of what happened when you weren't in your best.
And do we, is there kind of research and or is that I don't
know, are things indicating thatthe apology?
Like can they take that in, you know, say like a 5 or 6 year
old? Like can they feel that,
understand that? Yeah, I mean, I, I truly believe
(37:59):
that they do. And if it's not in that moment,
it's like you're, you're creating kind of this image that
they have as you as a parent that if, if you like, you get
into an argument or a disagreement with them, like
it'll be OK in the end, right? Like that, you don't have to be
worried about that little linger.
There's a grudge or, you know, right, You know, Mum's never
(38:20):
gonna walk with me home from thepark, you know, if I get upset.
So even at that moment in time again, developmentally, like I,
I, I recommend this for any age,like I don't even, you know,
even for kids that don't even have really language yet.
It's just you're, you're promoting the sense of how do
you come back and repair in the relationship?
Essentially, Yeah. Jeez.
(38:42):
Yeah, because I mean, I don't know about you.
Like, you know, I see a lot of generational things where, you
know, I love my parents. Don't get me wrong, they'll
probably listen to this later, but you know, there, there
wasn't a lot of that. Like, you know, I listened to my
parents and I did what they saidand that kind of that was it,
right? And so I think now, you know,
what we know and what we learnedis that I, I would like, you
(39:06):
know, in terms of being able to express himself, that my son is
being able to come to me in those moments also too.
And saying like that didn't makeme feel very good.
And then we can talk about it ina good way where I don't have to
like try to make my point across.
There's no point that you have to make around feelings, right?
That didn't make him feel good. That's, you know, that's for his
(39:27):
experience and it's for me to beable to kind of repair and then
also come back to that and make sure that our relationship is
still solid. That's really.
Fantastic advice. Now the other thing we hear a
lot about is sensory, the word sensory.
And there's like sensory days atthe museums and things like what
is all that? What is that?
What is it all about? Where is it coming from?
(39:48):
What does it mean? Talk to us about sensory, the
word sensory. Sensory, sensory and sensory
processing and all the things, yeah, yeah.
So that's again something that OT's are really familiar with
just with that like environmental piece is that.
All the inputs that we're getting from like a sensory
stimulation on how we make up the world comes in through like
(40:09):
our different senses, right? So like sight, taste, smell,
hearing, and then there's other ones, right?
Like in terms of introspection, like that inner feeling, those
types of things. And, and so we get tons of input
from the environment and then wemake sense of things.
For some people, there are certain things that are really
overwhelming. And so I think we know, you
(40:32):
know, for some kids, for some people, even like loud noises is
really distressing for people, different tastes and smells can
be really upsetting. And so I think everyone has
that. Everyone has a sense like we
call it a sensory profile. Everyone has that everyone can
tell you what they like and theydon't like.
You know, there's people that love, they need to have a
(40:53):
blanket on them, even if it's like super hot middle of August
and there's. Yeah, right.
I'm like I need a. Blanket people are crazy.
If they don't, I'm like, you're going to get kidnapped.
That's why. My feet are covered.
I feel like I'm going to get kidnapped.
Good to know. So, yeah, I mean there everybody
(41:15):
can tell you what they need, right?
I think the the threshold where it goes with people who
definitely have like more of a sensory processing, you know,
they call it sensory processing disorder or challenges, is that
it prevents them from functioning in their day-to-day
life. So, you know, again, like if you
have a real aversion to sound orlike light and your school has
(41:40):
like just changed all their lighting to like that really
bright white fluorescent lighting, you're not going to
want to go to school. So, so it's those types of
things that it would just work on with everyone really.
But you know, for me, I've really been in the realm with
with more like school based kidsis kind of what is their sensory
profile? What are their strengths and
(42:00):
where do they have a hard time? And can we modify the
environment? Again, not looking at the person
as the problem. Definitely we can work on some
like coping strategies around that, but what is it within
their environment or can we add some tools that could be really
helpful for them to be able to function where they're at in
life? So for kids, you know, even kids
with ADHD or just need a lot of movement stimulation, you know,
(42:24):
when they're sitting at their desk, like there's bands that
can go around the legs of the desk where they can just like
pop their feet up and down or a different cushion that they can
wobble on or can we have movement breaks or, you know,
those types of things. So, yeah, but I mean, like, I
think the word sensory and the different tools out there have
become really mainstream, which is great in the sense of, you
(42:47):
know, it's not this kind of liketaboo thing where it's like, oh,
well, you have an issue and thenyou can, you know, no, like it's
recognizing like we all need some sort of like sensory diet
or sensory regulation. I mean, I even have tools like
because we're in a hybrid environment and you're on Zoom
or Teams all day and you're needing like something to fidget
(43:08):
with or, you know, to stay focused.
So but yeah, that's essentially what we do in terms of family.
And then also, again, like with the childcare centres of what is
your programming look like so that you're able to look at the
needs of the group and making sure that they their sensory
stimulated in a way where they can participate.
Because what happens is if you're not able to, then that's
(43:30):
when you're starting to get someof the challenges in terms of,
you know, kids making choices that they're, and the reason why
they're making these choices is to get that sensory input,
right? So they might be following too
close to a kid or they might push someone because they, they
need to move. And so it's like, how are you
looking at that inclusive programming from a sensory
(43:51):
perspective to make sure that you're able to manage the group?
Yeah, what you do is so cool andso important, like to not just
take a kid who's pushing anotherkid and be like, oh, you're a
pusher, you're a bully or you'rethis or you're that and labeling
them and writing them off. Like I think not too far in the
past, like that was probably theoutcome for those kids.
Oh, you're a bad kid that oh, that Bobby's a bad kid.
(44:14):
Actually had a woman on the I don't know if you listened to
this episode with Kathy and Bayashi and it was an episode on
how to raise boys. And I think these actually 2
conversations go so hand in handbecause she was talking about
just, there's so much labeling that happened with raising young
men. And like, and not to say that
boys have sensory issues, but I think it was just that example
(44:34):
of like, maybe there's just likea more physical physicality
perhaps with like young boys and, and the boys being labeled
and like, what does that do whenyou label a boy?
Like exactly. It's, it's just so incredible
what you do and how you how you really look at the whole
picture. Yeah.
And again, like again, it's likewhat?
What happens, what happens when you label someone so early on,
(44:56):
like we've seen evidence around that, right?
It's just, it's just the nature of humans and community things.
And that's why I always come back to the, you know, when I
ask like, who's this a problem for and what is, what is the
outcome, right? Like who's this a problem for?
What are our choices to move forward?
Like I don't, I don't buy into like this can't get better
(45:20):
because it probably can. You just need a little bit of
effort and motivation around that.
And I like that you're saying like, who is this thing up, this
situation a problem for? Not who is this child a problem
for? The child is not the problem.
And I love that you said that early on too.
Like the kids. Not bad.
The kids kid. Yeah.
(45:40):
The situation might be creating complexities in different
scenarios, like complexity beingnot showing up to school.
And you know, you want your kid to get an education and be
there. So how can we The situation is
complicated, not the child. Yeah, I think that's a cool
distinction. Oh my gosh, there's so many
questions. I'm looking at the time.
Do you have any more time for me?
Of course they do, Always for. You OK?
(46:03):
Here's a question that came up in my head just now.
As we were talking about censoring things, I was thinking
about parents feeling really overwhelmed, raising my hand,
raising my hand. And I actually just interviewed
a woman, Joanna Brewster, and she was, we were just talking a
bit about this and she actually coached me through an emotional
(46:25):
intelligence tool to talk about irritability.
And like, you know, 5:00, 5/30 Iget a little bit irritable, like
bit hungry, cooking dinner, whatever.
So now I want to ask you that like sensory overload that I've,
I'll only speak from my personalexperience that I've never felt
in my life like I do as a parentsometimes where there's a lot of
(46:45):
touching and sometimes noise andlike my husband's been playing
music, which I normally like. But then that with the kids with
the siren, I'm like, put me in asensory safe space.
Like what is happening? Like why I?
Don't know the parent isn't an issue now, yeah.
Yeah, yeah. And what do we do about it?
(47:06):
I. Mean locking ourselves in the
bathroom and being like, oh, I have to go #2 to your kids when
really you're just like, in. There, which is totally OK, like
again, judgement. I've told parents, I'm like, if
you need a break, like just justgo safely.
But I mean, so my theory is, youknow, before being a parent,
(47:27):
like you just had more autonomy and choice over your time on how
you regulated yourself. And again, it comes back to
like, what are you taking on in the family household as your
role of like regulating everyoneelse, right?
So, and, and all the tasks like you're, you're responsible for,
you know, feeding this small human that is also hangry and
tired and, you know, also tryingto find ways to regulate
(47:50):
themselves. So much regulation.
So much regulation all the time,everywhere, but you know, like
you're the person, you're the primary person that's doing that
for the household. So I think, you know, and it's
just like all the senses all at once that are like super
intense. And so for someone, you know, I
totally resonate with that because actually we were in the
car, we went to go pick up my inlaws yesterday from the
(48:12):
airport and then, you know, theywere hungry and so we were
waiting for the take out and then we got the takeout.
And so it was like me, my husband, my son, who was singing
something and then, you know, my2 in laws in the back and like
my son was asking me a question.And then my husband was telling
me like to be like it was all clear because I was backing up.
(48:33):
And then my father-in-law was like, just look at the backup
Cam because I wasn't in my car. And I was like, everyone is
talking to me, please stop talking, you know?
And then my mother-in-law said, sorry, I'm like, why are you
sorry? You didn't say anything?
So I totally resonate with like it's just like all at once and
you're trying to think, right. So it's in, it's like you're,
you're, you're over stimulating and you're overloading.
(48:55):
You're like thinking part of your brain.
And so as a parent, it's like itcould be the screaming, it could
be the toy, it could be the touching if you know, the
constant questioning. And it's just, it's it, it does
it like rattles for some, not everyone actually.
But, you know, I think most of us as parents like it rattles
your nervous system, whereas before being a parent, like you
(49:17):
just had a little bit more control over that environment.
Yeah. OK, right.
Yeah, because you can remove yourself.
But when you have these little dependents who, yeah, might
cause harm to themselves or others, you're like, well, I
can't really step out. Yeah, for sure.
OK, So in those moments, like I do tell parents, you know, in
terms of like being able to likekind kind of come back down,
(49:40):
really you're just telling yourself like this is temporary.
And then having a bit of like when it is safe to do so or like
when, you know, This is why I tell parents that, you know, you
really should have some things within the week that you look
forward to that's on your own, whether it's like just even
going upstairs on your own, shutting the door and reading a
book or going for a walk. Like those things will help
(50:00):
balance your nervous system in terms of the day-to-day.
But you know, when you're in thethick of it and you can't,
you're like, I'm just going to peace out.
You can't do that. So just telling yourself like
this is temporary, it will end, you will move on and then just
try and have a supportive strategy to be able to come back
down. And then you take the batteries
(50:21):
out of the fire truck. Yes, yeah, you say you have no
more batteries ever again. But a hex on the person who gave
you the fire truck. No sounds.
But then it brings them so much joy.
And then when you are regulated,so sweet.
What a great toy. And toying.
(50:41):
You're not making dinner and your husband's not playing the
guitar. You know it's fine.
Playing or you don't have misophonia like I do when your
husband's shooting around you for our anniversary.
I heard about the chewing now like 3 times.
Me. Yeah.
Do I bring it up that much? You.
You talk about it often. It's definitely something that
(51:02):
bothers you, yeah. That's totally something that
bothers me, which is OK Got to stop chewing.
He also made it as our anniversary post this year,
which was very sweet. He posted a photo of us and he
says like something about seven years.
I'm like, sorry about my chewing.
Yeah, there you go. From an occupational therapist,
we have to talk about who's thisa problem for me?
(51:23):
It's a huge problem for me. Yeah, I'm boring everyone on the
podcast with this. It's my truth chewing.
You bring your husband on to thepodcast and be like, let's talk
about your chewing. Yeah, versus the the emotional
episode we did about his health journey, I'll bring him on and
I'll just like beat him down thenext time.
Yeah, let's talk about your touring, OK.
(51:46):
Oh my gosh, I had another 5000 questions, but for another time.
For another time. Um.
Tracy, first of all, thank you for this.
You're incredible. Just so informative.
I feel like I learned so much and when I'm cooking dinner
tonight 1st I'm going to go out and BBQ so everything's better
outside. Everything is better outside.
(52:07):
So that's good. And I will just say if I feel
overwhelmed like this is temporary.
So thanks for that. Now she just seemed like such a
wise, wise individual, but what is something that you're trying
to still figure out? And I pretend I'm wise.
No, I think it. Yeah.
I think through my life experiences, I've become wise.
Things that I'm trying to figureout, to be honest with you, I
(52:30):
like I am walking the same journey as everyone else of
trying to figure out like how can I not only be a great mom
and through my own journey of healing to regulate myself and
also like role modeling how I dothat to my child.
But also again, like advocating and being there for the
(52:51):
community that I'm in, the work that I do, the systems that I'm
a part of to be able to say, youknow, in a professional evidence
based, rational way of, you know, we should be moving in
this direction. And if we do, we'll have
healthier communities, which is what everybody wants.
So that's what I'm trying to figure out every day.
How can we help you? How can like humans parents?
(53:12):
If someone listens to this podcast, they're like a pretty
cool person, obviously, but they're like, you know, they're
really, in all seriousness, there's somebody who really
values like growth and development and what can we do
as parents to create the conditions that other parents
can thrive? Our kids can thrive?
Like, what are you? I don't know how can we help you
(53:33):
in that mission of yours. I mean, the question of like
asking people just what they need, like, and I think that
sounds really cliche, but I mean, I even ask the kids that,
like I asked my own kid that. And then any kids that I work
with, like, you know, if they'rehaving a moment, it's not about
like, what's wrong with you? Like what do you need in this
moment? And I think, you know, if we ask
(53:54):
that of parents and really dig into it in terms of like, it's
not just about like, well, sometimes it's about like the
scheduling and you know, workingfrom home and being flexible
things. But it's like, what do you need
from like a timetable perspective, a projects
perspective, You know what, where are you in capacity?
(54:15):
Or sometimes it's just like the ability to give people
permission of, you know, saying,I know you're at like a 70%
right now and that's totally fine.
Like I've done that with staff too.
It's like it's really hard rightnow.
Don't put so much pressure on yourself.
Like you're doing great. So I think it just comes down to
like, what do you need? Yeah, I like that.
(54:36):
Just asking each other, human tohuman.
Human to human. I love that.
And where can everybody find you?
So to clarify, because people might be like, wait a minute,
how do you have all the time in the day to do all these
different things? So you work in the community
through in the BC healthcare world, Yeah, as well as working
in a private practice, WoodlandsCollective, Correct.
(54:59):
Yeah, so you can find me there. Yeah, I'm, I'm listed on The
Woodlands Collective page. And yeah, Tracy at
woodlandscollective.ca. You can definitely reach out to
me at anytime. Perfect, but they cannot book
you directly in the community unfortunately.
You can through Woodlands. Yeah, I have.
I have availability through Woodlands.
(55:20):
Through like if they want to come find you at your office.
Yeah. No, no, but they can find you.
Wildens collective for parents kids if you just want help with
anything, navigating systems andall that.
Highly highly recommend Tracy. Just hearing her talk about her
work as friends. It's a man.
(55:41):
You are detailed girl. Like people are getting a lot
from you. So thank you for the beautiful
work that you do and supporting parents and having such a
commitment to your craft. You're amazing.
Thank you. Thanks for having me and this is
great. Thanks for coming out.
OK. Thank you so much for listening
and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
(56:04):
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.
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