Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to all figured out.I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
Thank you so much for joining meagain this week.
So today I got to sit down virtually with Jillian Climie,
who is the cofounder of the Thoughtful Co Jillians built a
really impressive career advising and leading teams in
executive compensation and corporate governance, both as an
(00:20):
consultant and in house for two major global retailers.
And most recently, she led the global equity and executive
compensation programs at Lulu Lemon.
So she was actually negotiating all of the contracts for the
executive level, which sounded fascinating.
But now Jillian has gone out on her own with her cofounder
Sophie, and they cofounded the Thoughtful Co to help women get
paid what they deserve and to support companies in building
(00:43):
more inclusive workplaces. So they work with individuals
who are in the negotiation compensation process, whether
they're looking at a new contract or revising existing
contracts and things like that. But then there are also
supporting companies to do the same, to ensure certain not to
do the same, but to ensure that organizations are creating more
inclusive workplaces. From a compensation perspective,
(01:03):
it is such such cool work. She's helped clients negotiate
with companies like Goldman Sachs and Uber, and they've
achieved an average over 25% increase in compensation, which
is just absolutely incredible. She's also been recognized as
the 2024 Women of Influence nominee and the 2023 Peak
Emerging Leader. Today we're diving into how to
negotiate compensation as a woman and as specifically as a
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busy working parent, from understanding the equity side of
compensation to overcoming, you know, just all of the biases
that can and the confidence issues that can come with being
a mother in the workplace who might be coming and going from
parental leaves. So if you've ever felt unsure
about how to ask for more money,when to ask for more money, or
just how to talk about money in the workplace, this is the
(01:49):
episode for you. I could have talked to her for
five hours and I'm not even in the corporate world anymore, but
I support women who are, women who are.
And man, I'm just so fired up about this conversation.
So I hope you enjoy. You're listening to the All
Figured Out podcast. I'm your host, Andrea Barr.
(02:09):
I'm a career coach for parents, mom of two, and a
self-proclaimed expert at winging it.
After 10 years in the corporate world, two major career pivots,
and navigating life with kids, I've learned one thing.
No parent has it all figured out, and that's OK.
Here, we're all about growing personally and professionally
while keeping family time sacred.
(02:31):
You'll get practical tips, career strategies and musings on
life, plus guest experts to helpus fill in the gaps.
So grab a coffee or hide in yourcar for some knee time.
We're about to figure out this work, life and parenting stuff
out together. Jillian Climbie, thank you so
much for joining me on the All Figured Out podcast.
(02:52):
I'm so excited for this conversation.
Thank you for having me, I'm excited as well.
So you were just telling me thatwe just wrapped up International
Women's Day and you had a bunch of speaking opportunities.
And because we are talking aboutnegotiation and compensation for
women, I knew I could ask you. I said, so do you do paid
speaking engagements? And I love to answer.
(03:12):
What did you say to me? Yeah.
So we only do paid speaking engagements now.
And I think, you know, as any entrepreneur and your your
business evolves, you learn moreand more about kind of your
boundaries. And one of our core beliefs that
the thoughtful Co is to pay women for the value they're
delivering. So we hold ourselves to the same
standard. And yeah, it's been great to
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kind of communicate that to organizations as well, and
people receive it well, so. That's so cool.
What do you think is? I mean, we're going to dive
right in. I have a million and a half
questions for you, including your own story.
But as we're on this topic, whatdo you think the what is the
psychological value that is added to a situation like
speaking when you are paid and you are, you are advocating
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yourself to be paid for that. Do you?
But like, is there psychology orresearch that does kind of
promote the belief that people receive the information in a in
a better way? They actually value what you do
more because there is a price tag on it.
Good question. I don't think I've been asked
that before. And it's interesting.
I've spent, you know, the last decade in compensation and a lot
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of it doing executive compensation where you're
working with people who are making good money in executive
levels. And it's interesting because I
think part of it is really psychological.
It's not always about the money.It's about feeling valued for
what you're doing and feeling recognized.
So especially, you know, when I think about leaders or HR teams
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compensating their employees, like sometimes it is around how
can we show that recognition andmoney is an important part of
that, especially for women, right?
We face the, the gender pay gap and, and we're a lot of us are
acutely aware that we might be lower paid than others around
us. So I think there is a huge
psychological component. And then in our own work, we've
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also found that as well, right? When you are giving away your
services for free, people are more likely to discount them,
right? If you're confident in the value
that you're adding and back thatup with a price, whatever that
might be, I do find that people will also value you more as
well. So I think that's kind of a
twofold answer to that question.Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
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It absolutely makes a lot of sense.
So how on earth did you get, I love asking this question.
How on earth do you get into compensation?
Did you grow up thinking I'm going to be, you know, get into
the big bad corporate world and be an executive compensation
specialist? Like what was the career
trajectory for you? I did not grow up thinking that
I actually ragged my highest no it because my elementary
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graduation yearbook the other day and I wanted to be a lawyer
living in Hawaii. So I did not quite achieve that,
but there's still time. So we'll see compensation in,
you're in Victoria, right? Yeah, yeah.
So I'm on an island by the ocean, so.
But yeah, how we got into it is really Business School.
So I went to Business School andOntario and there's the
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recruiting cycles that happen within intense business schools.
And Ivy was the school that I went to, which is recruiting is
a big focus of it. And there were some of the
different paths that you could go into, accounting, marketing,
consulting, investment banking. It's kind of laid out for you.
And I went in the consulting route and I ended up getting an
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offer at Hughson Consulting, which is the firm that I
ultimately joined, which specialized in executive
compensation and corporate governance.
So working with boards of directors of companies within
Canada and the US to support them in figuring out how to pay
their top executive teams, but then also how to communicate
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that information to investors, make sure their structures are
motivating, but also appropriatewithin the market context.
And then getting a little bit broader on board governance.
So more interesting stuff in there as well.
So I kind of fell into it. I really liked the mix of HR and
finance. Like it wasn't just completely
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the numbers, it was also how to motivate, retain, incentivize
people. So I fell into it, the offer,
but ended up really enjoying it.Loved the firm that I worked at.
It was a big job on Bay Street, so really exciting.
But I also found it was a reallysupportive culture there, which
I think is rare with going into Base St. some of these some of
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these big companies. So I got really lucky with kind
of how I started there. Wow, that is so fascinating.
And what is so you and your cofounder, Sophie, who is on
parental leave? When we were chatting, she was
very pregnant. I believe she was really like
she was days away from going on her her friend to leave.
And so it'll be fun to have her on the show as well.
(07:52):
But you and your cofounder Sophie started the thoughtful Co
and how that feels like a huge job.
I'm sure there was twists and turns within there.
Maybe you worked other places, but how did you decide that?
Like, you know what, this is something that we need to do and
we believe that we could be paidfor this type of work.
So I think at the time, my most recent job before the thoughtful
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Co was at Lululemon, where I ledthe global equity comp and
executive compensation teams. And it was during COVID, You
know, I was working a ton, feeling a bit burnt out and just
thinking broader kind of about what I was doing for the world
and wanted to do something else.I'd spent my career with an
executive compensation, which isinteresting work, but ultimately
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it is, you know, supporting execs being paid millions and
millions of dollars. And I just felt the, the pay and
equity thing was, was getting tome a little bit.
So Long story short, I ended up quitting my job just to take
time off. I wanted to explore things
outside the corporate world. I took guitar lessons.
I wrote poetry like I just needed a, a reset.
(08:59):
And I, my now cofounder Sophie and I ended up going for sushi
dinner. And randomly that day I had
created a website called the Thoughtful Co and was thinking
about starting A blog. I had always wondered did I want
to be a journalist? And that was another avenue I
was exploring. And we happened to meet for
dinner that night and decided todo a blog on gender equity
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together. Her coming more from that
engineering side of things whereshe is has spent her career off
the side of her desk building out more equitable and inclusive
engineering firms and me coming a little bit more from that pay
equity side of things. So different angles and started
this blog and somehow that snowballed into the thoughtful.
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So there was a catalyst where I had one former Business School
colleague reach out to me and ask me to help them negotiate
their first exact level offer that they got.
And I said, yeah, sure, I'm not doing anything that sounds great
and supported them and then realized that was a way that I
could use my skill set to advocate for the things that I
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was passionate about and help close the gender pay gap.
So that kind of was a catalyst for me.
And then we started to build outthe different services within
consulting and coaching over thenext year.
And Sophie joined full time about a year in.
And so it was not the most like,you know, business plan, well
thought thing at the start. It kind of just snowballed over
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time. But now we're almost 3 1/2 years
in, which is really exciting, so.
Congratulations. I think those are the best
business stories. We're the ones where you're not
setting out. And sometimes those those end up
being cool stories too. But you know, the person who
sets out to create the business and they're like, I'm going to
create a business and that's theimpetus for creating the
business. I find that, yeah, little,
little, little less interesting.So that's really, that's really
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cool. Now you've mentioned a couple
times the gender pay gap. If we were to explain this to my
4 year old daughter, and I wouldlove to be able to explain this
to her, how do you describe whatthat means?
Yeah, that's a great question. I think it really is, you know,
we are paid differently for equal work.
(11:10):
So for every dollar that Amanda is paid, women are paid about
$0.84. And depending on, you know, what
research or analysis or country or location you're looking at,
that number is a little bit different, but it's around
$0.84. So I think that's the most
simple way to kind of look at it.
And I see it anecdotally throughout my career, which is
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why I started the Thoughtful Co and then also with my clients,
you know, consistently just being underpaid a little bit.
And I think what I've found is negotiation can support us in
helping to close that gap. Ultimately, we wanna be in a
place where we don't have to negotiate to be paid the same as
others, right? We are just paid equally by our
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companies, but we're not there yet.
So that's where we're trying to kind of fill that negotiation
gap. But ultimately with our work
with companies, we're hoping to create more equitable HR
compensation, promotion, hiring structures so we can reduce
that. And a lot of companies are doing
great work in that area, but we're definitely not there yet.
And can you explain exactly whatthis whole pay band thing is
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that's happening now? I know we have, we have audience
members who are in different countries.
There's like Ireland that represents all over the world.
So if you could kind of we can speak to it from a Canadian
perspective because that's your experience.
If you happen to have other, youknow, weird knowledge about
Ireland, sure, throw it in there.
But we're seeing more and more on LinkedIn job descriptions and
job postings, this pay band. What is that in an effort to do?
(12:36):
Is that related to the gender pay gap as well?
Yeah. So pay transparency is
definitely coming more into the forefront, which is great.
So in BC, where we're based for any new job that a company posts
publicly on LinkedIn, Indeed or wherever, they are supposed to
include a pay band for that. So a rough salary range of what
they're expecting for that role.And that's hopefully coming to
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Ontario as well. It's in some states in the US
too, like California. So we're seeing more and more of
that come up and really it's just to support candidates and
understanding, you know, what they can expect in this role and
to support them in negotiating as well, I believe.
And it's to create that that paytransparency where, you know,
some people just happen to have that knowledge and have those
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connections and know what to askfor and other people don't.
And that's what I've seen so many times.
It's almost like an information gap of knowing what to ask for
versus not. So I think it's a really
important step. The one piece I will say is
that's all around salary, whereas we know there's so many
other components that go into a compensation offer like owner
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structure, profit share, equity compensation, sign on awards.
You know we have a list of about35 different things you can
negotiate. So definitely helpful to have
that and I think so important, but would love to see more and
more transparency on those othercomponents as well. 35 in my
head, I'm like, I can probably think of, you know, here I am
thinking I'm smart because I'm like always negotiate your
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vacation, always negotiate when your probationary period,
whatever it is. But that's that's insane.
That's wild. But that's really cool that
that's happening. I feel like that does provide a
bit of a, a, I don't know, closes the gap in terms of
socioeconomic differences. I think as well, because if
you've, if you grew up wealthy and you have wealthy connections
and then, you know, there's like, I feel like that can
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really play into people like, you know, feeling like they're
on top of the world can negotiate for whatever, maybe
have connections, like you said in that industry and can like
ask the who's who about, about the pay.
So I think that makes that makesa lot of sense.
I have to ask while we're here because this has come up a
couple times recently with the clients, the career coaching
clients that I work with where there sending me the job
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description or sorry the job posting and they're like, but
the salary range is like $80,000to 160 and you're nodding your
heads. You're like, I know this is
coming. Like what the hell?
What what is that all about that?
Is that just them? Like it's not like a scapegoat
or I'm sorry, like they're just like evading the actual like, I
(15:05):
don't know, legislation and whatthey're like, oh, whatever.
Just a huge range in. Yeah, I think that's so great
that you brought that up. I've seen one.
I think it was like, I don't know, zero to like a million.
Like I've seen some really aggressive ones.
And yeah, that's not in the spirit of the legislation at
all. It's supposed to be the actual
range that you have budgeted for.
So, you know, I think it's always worth it to ask the
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question if you're going throughinterviews with the company like
that and just say, hey, I saw the range was 80 to 160.
What are you thinking for this role approximately?
I'm definitely worth it to ask. And sometimes you'll get that
information verbally, even if they're not putting it on on the
actual job posting, which they should be.
OK. And then say something like that
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while we're just on this, well, say it's like 80 to 160 and the
person's coming in is like, yeah, I have like double the
amount of experience. Like I am overqualified for
this. I'm going for the 160 because I
would be the person who should get the upper portion of that
band. And you go for the 160.
What it happened in a lot of cases that the company might
then come back and try to pull back on the other Beavers that
you'd be negotiating on because they're like, oh, well, we're
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paying you at the top of the ban, so we're going to pull back
in other areas. Or is that also out of it, like
not in integrity with the spiritof the legislation?
Yeah. So I think we always recommend
when you're going into a negotiation, really prioritize
what's most important to you. I don't typically see, you know,
I don't know if I've ever seen acompany who has pulled back
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significantly on other components because you're
increasing your salary. Like usually the salary is the
biggest piece and that's where you really want to focus the
energy on. But I have seen, you know, as we
get to more senior levels, if you're pushing more in salary,
you might get a little bit less bonus structure, equity
compensation. So that's where it can come into
(16:49):
play a little bit. But I think ultimately, if
you're talking to a company, negotiating your salary and
thinking about a pay range, I like to think about it, you
know, if you are new to that role and you need support
getting into it, getting into achieving all the goals of that
or you don't have a ton of experience yet, I like to think,
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you know, you're probably at thelow end of that range.
If you're fully functioning and role, you have experience, you
can do it. You don't need support from
others on your team. I like to think in the middle
and then if you're really an expert at that, maybe you'll
support others on the team who are in that role.
You're a leader in that space, you're pushing towards that next
level. I think about the high end.
(17:31):
So that's helpful when we're framing our negotiations with HR
especially is how can you show your either fully functioning in
that role or pushing to that next step and that will help
just with the conversations around pay ranges.
That is so I feel like that's such a golden nugget.
I'm like, wanna like make a markto like pull that clip.
That is such a good way of thinking of it because it can be
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daunting. Like you see that $80,000 range,
but maybe it actually is legit. Maybe they're like, we'd be
willing to pay someone who doesn't really know how to do
this job, but we can train you and teach you and help you.
We'll pay you the 80,000. But like, hey, if like some
badass experts coming in, we're willing to also invest in that
type of person. So that's very, very
interesting. Now I want to take us back a
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bit, negotiating one-on-one. I personally have such an
affinity for this topic. I think of us telling you and
Sophie I read books on the topic.
I actually love negotiating. I find it very fun.
But I know that I'm maybe not the majority of people in the
world and who aren't negotiationnerd, so I'd love to learn
(18:35):
something new as well though. Can we start from the beginning
like negotiation now I in my like studies are just like like
chatting with people about different negotiation tactics.
I've heard that there's different philosophies,
different principles. There's like a pie and everybody
has a piece of the pie or there is like the mutually beneficial
whatever philosophy. Like if you were to kind of like
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give a summary or overview of what negotiation is, what are
some of the different, you know,philosophies or what's more
trending right now in the compensation world, I don't even
know where to start. Take it away.
Negotiation. Teach us.
Teach us, Gillian. Yeah, that's a good overall
question. And I think, you know, when it
comes to compensation negotiation, one of my
philosophies is, you know, startthe conversation with respect.
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And I think you'll get respect back.
And I think that's an important one.
When we're thinking about how webring up negotiating, and
especially for women, sometimes how we negotiate our
compensation is almost as important as what we ask for.
So that's one I like to keep in mind is, you know, starting that
conversation with respect and you're more likely to, to get
respect back. So that can even look like
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giving your leader a heads up that you want to talk about
compensation next week instead of just surprising them with it.
Or, you know, preparing and kicking that conversation off,
outlining why you're excited forthat role.
And then the different points that you bring up and why you're
asking for XYZ preparation. Giving a heads up, I think
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demonstrates respect for the conversation.
Another philosophy that I have is not saying too much as well.
I. I've seen so many times within
negotiations where someone askedfor something, it goes really
well and then they just keep talking and they almost talk
themselves out of their negotiation and they'll say, you
know, I love working here, I'm asking for XYZ, but no problem.
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I know it's a tough time in the economy and budgets are tight
and, you know, they caveat a lot.
So I think I work a lot with my clients on saying your piece and
stop talking. It demonstrates confidence.
It's a great tactic for women because it's not aggressive,
right? You're literally not saying
anything and it lets the person on the other side of the table
respond to you. So those are kind of two of my
(20:45):
my big philosophies. I think with the compensation
negotiation, which is a unique negotiation, right?
It's a bit more emotional than others when you're negotiating
for a company or as part of yourrole within sales or whatever it
might be. So yeah, those would be two, two
ones that come to mind for me. Those are awesome.
(21:05):
I tend to do a little bit of coaching on the negotiation
front. People are often who come to me,
they're really good at interviews, You know, they're
they're stars already, but it comes to the negotiation and
there's like, you know, fear or self worth things that come up.
And, and I think that's a reallyis a really important point
about not talking yourself out of it and being OK with that
pause like that is so it's so critical.
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And, and I think I really love what you said about the, the
respect for the conversation. And I always talk also talk
about who is in front of you when you're doing your research
and when you're really thinking about preparing for that
conversation. It shouldn't be, Oh, I know my
manager like we've got a great relationship.
I'm just going to wing it, go into the conversation.
But really thinking like if you were to think about your
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personality profile, like if youwere doing a personality
assessment, thinking about who they are, how they like to
receive information, how they like to think through things.
I think that's a great point about really giving them the
opportunity to have a think, maybe do a bit of their own due
diligence, maybe have a bit of achat, like a more casual chat,
maybe with their upper management just to see and start
to suss out things. Because sure, I'm somebody that
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he came to me and just threw something at me.
I I don't mind that at all. Like I'm a very fly by the seat
of my pants kind of person, but I definitely worked with leaders
who were complete opposite and they want to have their facts.
They want to think things through.
They really don't like to be surprised.
So I think that's that's such anincredible, such an incredible
advice and I think it's really important.
(22:30):
So now, Oh my gosh, I'm, I'm just thinking of like all the
times that I have been in the corporate world or the clients
that I work with, they're in thecorporate world and you're
sitting there midway through a review cycle.
You're like a like my job portfolio has just an increase.
(22:53):
Two people, my team have left. And I know that I'm doing so
much more work. I have so much more
responsibility. And now I'm starting to feel
that like feeling of animosity. And I really want to have a
discussion like having those wanting to talk about
compensation and you said givinga heads up.
What are some ways that you see work really well when it's like
really out of the blue compensation discussions?
(23:15):
Yeah. And I think we've probably all
been there, you know, like and Ithink it's happening a lot right
now with people budgets are tight and there's layoffs and
the people who were left in companies are having to do like
3 people's jobs. And I'm seeing that a lot with
our clients for sure of a bit offrustration around, OK, I'm semi
getting a promotion here has notbeen acknowledged and I'm not
(23:36):
getting a pay increase either. So I think for those times, it's
really great to bring up that conversation when you're
starting to feel that way. One thing I see with some of my
clients, since they've waited months or maybe even years
before talking about compensation, and by the time
they bring it up, they're reallyfrustrated.
You know, they're almost ready to leave tomorrow if they don't
(23:57):
get an increase. And typically that's not the
best way to enter a negotiation,right?
Especially if you're at a biggercompany.
There's certain budget periods, and if you miss one of those
periods, it might not come up again for six months.
So I always say, you know, startthat conversation earlier if
possible and kick it off with your leader getting to those
budget cycles, know when they are.
(24:17):
And that way it kind of reduces the frustration of, you know, if
you bring something up and you can't get a yes right away.
And I also would base it around the value that you're adding and
bringing in tangible metrics. And I think one point that you
brought up to was increase in role scope and responsibilities.
I love talking about that from HR and compensation perspective.
(24:40):
As you know, that's like right away.
If there is a significant increase in role scope, that
should be a justification for a little bit of an increase in,
OK. So really honing in on what your
key points are and tying it to metrics if possible.
Talking about your performance, the impact that you have, how
are you impacting revenue, expense management, time
(25:02):
savings, growth, number of customers, you know, whatever
those pieces are for you. And then how can you concretely
show that your role scope is increased as well?
So when you're negotiating internally especially, I find
kind of bringing around those pieces can be really powerful.
Do you have tips for people who have made maybe roles that feel
like more of their over cost centre versus like a direct tie
(25:25):
to revenue for the company? For instance, I'll use myself as
an example. I used to work in learning and
development and we are LED is notoriously like always getting
cut because they're like, OK, something's gotta give.
This is a cost centre. Boom.
They try to cut, you know, the LND members and then sometimes,
you know, it's really hard to prove the metrics of what you're
(25:47):
doing. For instance, the number of
learning and development programs I was creating, it's
that wasn't really a metric thatfelt like it was, I don't know
it, it would, I would have had ahard time walking in and being
like, well, I've created, you know, 12 different programs.
That feels kind of soft because it's like, well, what does that
even mean? That's not really tied to the
revenue. How do you, you know, how do you
help people to navigate that when they're feeling a little
(26:10):
weird about like what levers to really pull on in that
negotiation? Yeah, I think that's a great
question. And like right away my mind goes
to retention, engagement, you know some of those more HR
metrics which I think we do haveto fall on and, and sometimes
it's hard to demonstrate those directly if your company is not
tracking those types of things. But definitely bringing that
(26:31):
into play. The programs that I'm creating
are helping us retain our top talent.
And you can look up metrics online, right?
Turnovers can be 40 to 200% of an employee salary.
So that really is saving a lot of costs.
But I also like to think I was going through an example with a
client that other day of she wasreally detail oriented and that
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was one of her strengths she wanted to bring up.
And we were talking through whatsome metric we can tie to that.
And she found that she was really detail oriented, so she
could send her work directly to senior leaders without her
managers review. And that saves her manager about
3 hours of time per week and enables her to launch 2 new
projects for the company. So even kind of unassuming
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things like being detail oriented or time savings
metrics, things like that, that really matter to that person
that you're discussing with. As you mentioned, like that's so
important for your leader to hear.
You're saving your leader 3 hours of time per week, right?
Everyone wants wants time. It's the most important
currency. So I think there's oftentimes
smaller metrics that you can bring in there.
(27:39):
And then I also find feedback can be really helpful.
So if you got feedback from the CEO on X project, bringing that
in as an impact metric or feedback from a client or past
customer or things like that. So that helps to demonstrate the
impact, the value of your contributions as well.
Excellent. Those are so good.
(28:00):
I wish I had a pen and paper right now.
I'm not even in the corporate world, but I'm like, oh, this is
so good. I have to relisten.
OK, let's go to that. The going back to I'm so hot on
this topic of like, who is the person in front of you that
you're negotiating with and how important it is to recognize
that. And one thing because it's my
show, I can go off for a second here because it's like this
(28:20):
might be kind of an unpopular opinion.
There's nothing I detest more. OK, that's really dramatic.
But really, I really, really, really do not think it's a great
strategy. And it always coach people kind
of out of this. And we find a better solution
for when someone says in a negotiation.
It kind of had, you know, similar situations when I was a
(28:40):
manager, You know, I really wantthis razor, this promotion.
And then they list personal reasons I'm saving to buy a
house. Vancouver is really expensive,
you know, now that I work with parents, you know, I have 3 kids
like and it's so with the greatest amount of empathy that
I can like I have in my body, I can say that that is from my
(29:04):
perspective. And I'm really curious to hear
your perspective. That is like one of the worst
negotiating tactics because as much as that person might have
empathy for you, it doesn't matter.
That has nothing to do with you in your work and the value that
you bring to the organization ofwhich it is an energy exchange.
If you provide something to the organization, they provide money
back and ah, it's just it's heartbreaking when people that's
(29:28):
like the only thing that they can think of for why they
deserve more money or they deserve a raise is because of
those personal factors. What is your opinion on that
that that matter? They agree it's not relevant.
And as a compensation person, like I was trained to not take
that into account because yes, Icould be hearing that from this
(29:49):
certain person, but I don't knowwhat another person's going
through because they're not sharing that with me.
So it really is inequitable. Like I am not supposed to take
that into account. And what I've see so often
happen in negotiations is peoplefocus on external factors.
So yeah, they Vancouver is really expensive or inflation,
(30:10):
that's a big one we're seeing right now.
Inflation is really impact me, impacting me.
I need a salary increase. But inflation is impacting
everyone on your team, in the company, in the country.
So you're negotiating for everyone.
It's not specific to you. So you really need to focus on
you and the value that you add to that organization and try to
remove those external factors. Even economic landscape, right?
(30:34):
Like that's another one. It's a really tough economic
landscape. Things are expensive, whatever
it might be that that's not relevant for that conversation.
So I completely agree. And, and it is tough sometimes
when there are real factors thatare impacting so many of us
right now, right? It is a really tough economy
right now, but trying to focus it on the value that you add at
(30:56):
work, I think is is so much morepowerful because yeah, HR and
compensation, your leaders are not supposed to take personal
factors into account. What is your belief on
compensating based on performance?
And I don't know if this is a belief or if this is just like
one-on-one that you would learn as a conversation specialist.
(31:17):
But you know, we've all also hadthose situations where you're on
a team, you're kind of at the same level, same role, and
you're not supposed to. But you chat with the person on
your team and kind of find out what they're making.
And you're like, Oh my God, I am100 times better than them.
Maybe they're even making more than you and you're pissed and
maybe it's a man on your team. How would you advise somebody to
(31:38):
negotiate in that situation whenyou're like, I'm and not because
not that you would go in and saylike I'm so much better than
this person, but you actually figure out that you are not
being paid, you know, for, for your performance.
What? What would you say there?
Yeah. And I think I caution people
from focusing too much or not having the whole rationale based
(31:58):
on that because again, from kindof my brain, there can be a lot
of reasons why people are paid differently in a similar role.
So experience, education, time and role, role scope,
responsibilities, impact performance.
Like there's so many pieces thatthat go into play when they join
the company. What was the comp philosophy at
(32:20):
that time? So there can be rationale.
It's not always correct, but it's an easy one where a leader
can say, oh, This is why, right?This person has this training or
this skill set or they hold thisportfolio or whatever it might
be. So it's an easy one to kind of
shut down almost. Again, I would encourage to go
into that meeting and say, Hey, I'm performing at X level.
(32:41):
This is what I've contributed XYZ impact in this area and I
LED us to this growth. And I do know that others on the
team are making more than me. So having that as that last
piece, but not having it as the only rationale because again,
focusing on your performance is so much more positive.
And it's facts, right? Like if you bring in core facts
(33:04):
of what you're bringing to a company that's an exchange for
the, the money that you're asking for, it sets up that
conversation so well. So I think great to you know
have as as a Third Point maybe in that discussion, but it
wouldn't have the whole focus around that because I have seen
that kind of be turned down for various reasons.
That makes sense. Is it?
(33:25):
I've had in most of my contracts, when I think back on
my employment contracts, most ofthe time it does have a
stipulation in there saying you were not allowed to discuss your
compensation and there you couldbe punished for whatever.
I don't even know how they wouldpunish you, but they gotta make
it seem like you could be fired for even discussing your
compensation. Is that commonplace?
Do you think that that's a? Is that a real thing?
(33:48):
That's not common. I still see it for sure and
offers and a lot of times that'sactually not legal.
So I would definitely, you know,just have a quick Google of that
as well just to make sure if it and it could be legal in your
area. I'm not a lawyer or caveat that,
but definitely with pay transparency in BC and things
like that, you cannot be penalizing people for that.
(34:08):
So great 1. You know, just to check if you
see that in your contract, you know, always good to do a Google
on that. And I, yeah, I don't love seeing
that in contracts because ultimately, you know, people are
gonna share what they're going to share.
And that has to be part of your strategy as in our HR team to
know that people do talk about their pay.
So yeah, don't, I don't love to see that in contracts.
(34:31):
OK, I'm very surprised. I'm gonna be honest.
I'm very surprised. I really did think that this was
a very normal thing. Maybe I was just not.
I'm just a pushover and like such a rule follower in some
sometimes I'm a rule follower. And that I was such a rule
follower. I was so scared or like I would
disclose it to like one person and it was like, Oh my God, what
if they found out like such a big thing?
(34:51):
But that's awesome. I like that.
That's becoming hopefully less of a thing.
Wow. OK, so I don't know if this
isn't going to be rapid fire because I want, you know,
lengthy great answers from you, but let's do let's do some true
or false. I just have so many questions.
OK, I've never done this on a podcast.
(35:12):
OK. I'm making this up as we go
because I just have a million and a half questions I want to
ask you. Brewer Falls It's common for a
company to rescind an offer in acompensation negotiation because
it's not going well. Boss, I've seen that very, very
few times in my career. I think that's everyone's worst
(35:34):
case scenario. It's very unlikely to happen.
I definitely see that as a red flag for the organization.
If it's happening often, the worst case is a no and you can
move on from a no. You can still sign a contract.
So I definitely think that's a fear that kind of stops a lot of
people, but it's so rare to happen.
So I would push against that fear.
(35:56):
Oh my gosh. OK, True or false, companies are
just trying to. Our companies are always going
to offer you like $10,000 less in salary than what they're
actually willing to like baseline pay you.
I would say false. Some companies do have a comp
philosophy to offer what they want to pay and they won't
(36:17):
negotiate or will negotiate verylittle.
So some companies will always negotiate or always offer a
little bit lower. But it totally depends on the
compensation philosophy. So you can't really.
I wouldn't say that as a blanketstatement.
So Duke, most companies, I actually didn't know that.
Do most companies have like a guidelines or compensation
philosophy that's like everybody's trained on and it's
(36:39):
written down and like that's like a real obviously the kind
of secretive thing that they have in their back pocket?
Yeah. So definitely I would say most
companies should. And every company has a unique
strategy hopefully. And then within that they have a
compensation philosophy which guides how they pay their people
and kind of links to that strategy.
So especially on an executive compensation level, when it's
(37:02):
big dollars and you know, there needs to be a lot of thought
behind it because it's quite, quite a lot of money, there
usually is a strategy around payfor performance like you brought
up earlier, you know, are we a company who really incentivizes
and motivates towards high performance?
And from that perspective, I think about bonus structure,
equity compensation, or are we little bit less risky and we pay
(37:26):
more in salary? So there's a lot of different
things that can go into a compensation philosophy.
And as someone who has worked ina comp team, then you can kind
of take that and use it when you're creating programs and
structures. And one thing I'd like to share
about compensation philosophies as well as they're really, you
know, each company might pay thesame role differently.
(37:48):
So say I'm working at Nike, Nikemight prioritize a shoe designer
because that's essential to their business strategy, whereas
Louis Vuitton, I don't know why that came to me.
Louis Vuitton might not prioritize a shoe designer.
They might prioritize sales and they might pay a premium for
(38:09):
that role. So it's like the same role, the
same sales role at Nike or LouisVuitton, but Louis Vuitton is
paying a premium. So I always like to share that
because sometimes there's an over focus on market data, where
market data can be helpful in figuring out what we want to ask
for. But ultimately every company
pays their people differently. So I don't like to over focus on
(38:31):
market data as well. That is so OK, we can stop the
Q&A for a SEC because this is such a good conversation.
And something I was going to askyou about was, you know, in
addition to really knowing what your value is, what you bring to
the table, how you help the company, a big one that we
always hear is go into your research, find out like look on
Glassdoor in these ridiculous places that actually give you no
(38:52):
help whatsoever. Maybe Chachi Pitino, it's been
awhile, but I actually haven't tried that.
But yeah, that's, that's interesting that you say that
you're kind of saying to like deprioritize the market data
little bit like don't put as much in that.
I think some people will go to anegotiation and that's mainly
what they've prepped is the market data.
And what I'm hearing from you isthat that is it could be a bit
(39:15):
of a factor. It's a factor, but it's not the
factor. And I never, I actually didn't
know that. I didn't realize that two
companies would have would actually that kind of makes
sense. Like I used to work at Aritzia,
you know, you did too. And there was, of course, there
was going to be positions withinAritzia that would be paid very,
very differently from when I wasin advertising.
A copywriter at Aritzia and a copywriter, like a senior
(39:38):
copywriter when I was at an ad agency probably compensated
quite differently because of thevalue.
Like a copywriter and an ad agency is like gold.
Like you can't do anything without like really great
copywriters at Aritzia. They had great copywriters.
But like, would it have been that same emphasis?
Maybe not. So that's a really good point.
(39:59):
Totally. And I think, you know, it's
helpful to have market data if possible, like hard to find good
market data for sure to help youfigure out what you wanna ask
for. But yeah, I don't think it
should be the only factor because again, I know I keep
going back to this point, but it's around your performance and
your impact in that role too. So I think it's great.
You know, and there are, there'sgreat sources on LinkedIn now
(40:20):
with pay transparency. Some industries have good
industry surveys, some associations too.
And we have the thoughtful code.That's kind of a gap we're
trying to fill. We've worked with hundreds of
women. Across North America and the UK
now, So we have a really robust market database to support our
clients and figuring out what they want to ask for on all the
components of compensation, not just salary.
(40:41):
But ultimately it is about you and the value that you add and
how that organization prioritizes your role.
So yeah, not over focusing on just that.
OK. Well, my question was going to
be where can somebody go? But it just sounds like they
should go to the thoughtful Co and work with you guys to ensure
that they're, they're kind of onthe mark.
OK, my last true or false would be true or false.
(41:05):
The best negotiation of the mosteffective negotiation, and it's
one in which you're willing to walk away.
This is a tough one. I mean, I, I think I would say
yes, but I know that's not within my work within
compensation negotiation. I know that's not a real
scenario for a lot of people, especially in a tough job
(41:28):
market. So I think yes, if you are
willing to walk away and you have that confidence going in,
yes, it's probably going to go great.
But I also think you can negotiate really well when you
know you are going to sign that offer and you can still have
that confidence in it, still go really well.
So I'll caveat that one a littlebit.
OK, OK, one is much gears now totalk a bit more about the
(41:52):
parenting space. This is a podcast predominantly
for parents, predominantly women, but hello to the 20 to
25% of men who listen. You can get something out of
this too, of course. But when a woman is coming,
coming in and out of the workforce due to a parental
leave, which is beautiful and a beautiful time, and it is so
that we can populate the earth. And they're lacking a bit of
(42:13):
confidence. If they're like, I've got say a
three to five year series of gaps or, you know, like combined
gap in my resume in which I'm coming and going say from the
same company or another company and they feel like they're just
not sure how and if they can negotiate.
So let's I'll break it down smaller.
Say it's a woman who's coming back from a parental leave,
(42:35):
takes, you know, 12 to 18 months, comes back, has missed
12 to 18 months of work. Feels like they were kind of
moving towards getting that promotion or maybe could have
been compensated. But it's not, you know, it's,
it's not like that glaring situation.
The person's been waiting for two years for a raise.
And that's that's kind of an easier discussion.
(42:56):
It's kind of like borderline what I know it's a tricky one,
but what are what advice would you have to her when she feels
like, but I haven't been there for 12 to 18 months.
Who am I to negotiate? Yeah, that's such a good
question. And I think, you know, when it
comes to parental leave in general, I always say try to
start their communication with your leader who or HR, whoever
(43:19):
it is that you chat with about your compensation early.
So you have a really good understanding of what's
happening before you go on leaveif possible.
So are you getting that annual compensation increase while
you're on leave? Like even if it's just
inflation, are you getting your bonus payout?
How is, how is performance determined for your bonus
payout, things like that? So I think a lot of people go on
(43:40):
leave and aren't really sure andthen they maybe just miss
cycles. But pushing for those things
earlier can be helpful. So you're not missing out.
Like that's what I hate to hear when someone goes on leave,
whatever gender and misses that annual compensation increase
because that starts to set you back, right?
That's where we see that motherhood penalty.
(44:01):
So I really believe in inflationary salary increases at
the minimum while you're on leave.
Of course, not all companies arethere yet, but I think great to
get that understanding. And then when you're coming
back, I think part of it is as I'm sure you work with so many
incredible parents, the mental side of it of knowing your value
(44:21):
and just because you've been on leave does not mean your value
has diminished. It's probably increased, right?
You've learned all these incredible new skills that you
can bring to the workplace. And I also like to remind so
many people go out and leave us for many different reasons.
They go on sabbaticals with the company and go to a different
operating unit and learn different things maybe in Asia
(44:42):
and then bring that back. Like there's so many changes
that happen in the workplace andit can add value in so many
ways. So I think a lot of it is that
that kind of confidence piece going back into it and then know
that negotiation is so normal aswell.
I always like to share this. Sometimes we feel like we're the
only ones bringing up money and talking about it, but people
(45:05):
negotiate all the time. It's absolutely worth it to talk
about it. When you come back, start that
discussion, right? You want to start off on a good
foot. You don't want to feel
frustrated going back into role when you've missed multiple
increases and you're feeling behind where you were before.
So I think it's great to, are you OK to talk about it, right.
(45:25):
That's what your leader is therefor.
And if you're able to start those conversations earlier, so
they're expecting it when you come back as well, I think that
can be helpful just to set you up for success so you don't have
to kind of build up all that confidence when you come back.
It's already in the calendar of hey, we're talking about my
role, responsibilities, compensation, etc.
(45:45):
It's a really good point and I like the doing it early.
I think as somebody who has goneon 2 parental leaves, one
working for a corporation, one working for myself, negotiating
with myself was probably harder.Meaner.
I would say I'm the worst boss I've ever had.
Not very nice anyways, I, I think that's really great
(46:09):
because I think that there's definitely a pressure cooker
that builds within you and I hear this from a lot of moms as
well where you have this expectation in your mind of
what's going to happen, whether you're like, oh, I'm going to
get nothing and so you come backand you don't instigate that
discussion or you're like, I'm going to get my $20,000 raise
this year and then you come backand nothing happens and then
you're even more disgruntled because there wasn't that open
(46:30):
line of communication about that.
I think that's a really, that's really, really, really good
advice. And I think that this is a
really minute detail, but for those who are listening, who are
going to be on a leave while theremuneration cycle is coming up
and say it's going to be happening, you know, when you're
giving birth or just after and you're really not in the
headspace to want to even be thinking about that.
(46:52):
I think it's really important toensure that you know what's
going to be happening, what the plan of attack is.
Are you willing to be contacted?I don't know.
You know, there's some organizations that are pretty
fluid like that where, you know,you have those discussions
around contact, no contact. Do you want to be, do you want
to go through the process with them?
Like while you're on leave, if you're, you know, maybe you know
that you'll be fine or hey, touch base with me and maybe we
(47:14):
can have a chat. But if I'm not in the headspace,
we talked about this, can we do it when I'm back?
Like there's a lot of, I think alot of things to really think
about and that preparation couldthe more you can prepare, but
you know, before you bring a child into the world, the more
you can just like take off of your future mental state, the
better 100%. So that's very, very good
advice. Now, you mentioned the
(47:34):
inflationary raise and that's also a question I wanted to ask
you. Is that customary?
Like is an does an employee, should they feel kind of
without, you know, ego or whatever, but like, should they
feel like they deserve to have at least an inflationary raise
every single year? Yeah.
I, I, I always caution in being too general because companies
(47:56):
have such different strategies. But definitely the majority do
have an inflationary increase every year.
And really the rationale behind that is you're starting to make
less money if you're not keepingup with inflation.
So most companies will have kindof an inflation, whether that's
2%, whatever it might be. And then usually there's a
(48:16):
little bit of performance bufferthat they have in there as well,
where a leader can give like a little bit hard to certain
employees and a little bit less.That being said, there's some
organizations that don't do that.
So I, I do want to caution as well, but I think especially if
you're at a bigger organization,I would expect at least a small
inflationary increase each year.What are the differences between
(48:37):
the private and the public sector when it comes to
compensation and the cycles and things like pay for performance,
inflation, things like that? What do you what do you notice?
This sector typically is a little bit more lower risk.
So private sector, it's usually more pay for performance.
(48:58):
You're using bonus, profit, equity, performance based
compensation increases to motivate employees towards
certain things. Whereas public sector typically
is a little bit more static. So it's more structured.
You know, each year based on howmany years you've been in the
role, you get X percent increaseand you know there's typically
(49:18):
less use of performance based elements of pay.
So in ways it can allow for moreequity because there's more
structure in it, but there's also less room for if you are
really high performer to get those big payouts.
Again, that's a generalization. There's some public sector that
do have more performance based structures.
But in general, that's what I would say kind of the the
(49:40):
differences. OK, OK.
That makes a lot of sense. I get that and that I think
that's what I would, that's whatI would have thought as well.
Now let's go into with the time that we have left, I'm very
excited to go into what are the different levers that we can
pull out when we're negotiating.Let's talk about it.
The perspective of you're signing a brand new contract
with a new organization, new role, everything like that.
(50:01):
You're leaving a really cushy job.
You're leaving like a salary that you enjoy.
You've got four weeks vacation and then you get that new
contract. It's a little boost in salary,
but they're trying to get you down to two weeks of vacation.
The benefits like not as many massages.
You know, there's like some of like those types of things and
the person's really grappling. They're like, that's a bit more
money, but then the total reward, like the total
(50:23):
compensation package is maybe not as great.
Like, how can that person, what can they be pulling on in terms
of the leaders? Yeah.
So it would say, you know, the biggest one, of course, is
salary. We want to try to push on that
because that's enduring. It should be increasing every
year. But then I love to think about
bonus structure, you know, how can you push on that?
That can be a huge amount of money every year depending on
(50:43):
your role. And can you get into equity
compensation too? So things like stock options,
share ownership, performance, share units, depending on what
industry you're in and what level you're at, that is where I
see the majority of the wealth being made if companies do well.
So negotiating early into those types of components can be so,
so lucrative. I'm such an advocate for more
(51:06):
women negotiating equity. We have free explainers on our
website for stock options, PSU and RSU if you are interested
and want to learn more. And then I would also say sign
on awards is a big piece too if you are feeling like part of
your package is a little bit lower in certain areas.
I recommend for 98% of my clients negotiate a sign on.
(51:28):
It can be such a quick, simple ask and yes, it's not as great
as getting a salary increase because that's enduring, but it
really can help fill the gaps for some certain pieces.
And then lots of other components that come up.
As I mentioned, we have that biglist from allowances, like get
creative on allowances, from parking allowances, coaching,
(51:49):
like maybe you're going into your first exec level role, you
want to coach for the first fourmonths to set you up for
success. Fitness Wellness allowances are
coming up, coverage of training certifications, employee share
purchase programs, parental leave structures can be helpful
to negotiate as well. So you know, lots of different
pieces in there moving allowances that you can think
(52:11):
about to. Not necessarily, it doesn't make
the same difference as that salary increase, but definitely
can increase your enjoyment at work and support you in your
career. Who those are fun.
I love, love the word allowance.I mean, who doesn't, who doesn't
have like fire in their belly when they hear a loud and they
think of like their young self getting allowance for candy or I
(52:32):
don't even know if I actually had an allowance, but like I
like that and I didn't I really didn't think about half of that
stuff. So I like that.
What about a clothing allowance?Dry clean allowance?
Mail allowance? Yeah, clothing for sure.
I see in retailers. I don't see, I don't think I've
ever seen a nail allowance, but I would.
(52:54):
It's important, right? I'm thinking it's 100%.
OK, you guys are coming back on.We'll bring Sophie.
Maybe she can bring her maybe. Thanks again, Jillian, for
coming on. Now, where can everybody find
you? I feel like they want that list.
They want the list of the the compensation things that they
can negotiate on. Yeah, check out our website
itsthethoughtfulcode.net or you can also follow us on
(53:17):
linkedinthethoughtful.co.orinstagram@thethoughtful.co.And always open to adding me on
LinkedIn as well. I'd love to chat about
compensation, you know. Please feel free to reach out.
Yes, reach out, give her a thanks for this episode and
definitely get her help the nexttime you're looking to to
negotiate a contract. So thank you so much.
(53:37):
Again, thank you so much for listening.
And since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.