May 20, 2025 • 41 mins
Ep. 83: Owning your job search mindset with Jenna Mulherin (Part 1)
In this episode of All Figured Out, I sat down with HR leader and former career coach Jenna Mulherin to talk about career pivots, confidence, and how to move forward when you’re not sure what’s next. From landing her first retail job after working the Olympics, to negotiating pay raises, pivoting into HR without a traditional background, and starting a business during mat leave—Jenna's story is real, inspiring, and full of takeaways for parents navigating career change.
Related episodes:
Ep. 75: Owning the interview with Jenna Mulherin (Part 2 coming Thursday) – Spotify or Apple
Ep. 16: Ana Colak-Fustin, former Global 500 recruiter, on figuring out internal job changes and career growth internationally – Spotify or Apple
Ep. 14: Steph Gillies on figuring out resumes, cover letters and LinkedIn – Spotify or Apple
About the guest:
Jenna Mulherin is an HR leader and the former founder of Own the Interview, a business that helped job seekers build confidence and clarity in the job search process. With over 15 years of experience in recruitment, people development, and leadership, Jenna brings a grounded and honest approach to navigating career pivots and professional growth.
If you’re job searching, you need this:
🚀 The Resume Shop by Andrea Barr – Shop beautiful, customizable, plug-and-play resumes so you can start landing those dream job interviews.
About Andrea Barr, host of All Figured Out:
Andrea Barr is a career and life coach for parents who want to lead with intention—at work and at home. She helps ambitious moms and dads design careers that align with their values, energy, and season of life—without burnout or guilt. Through her coaching and podcast, All Figured Out, Andrea shares honest conversations and tools to help you build a life that feels good, not just looks good.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Hello everybody, welcome back tothe All Figured Out Podcast.
My name is Andrea Barr. Welcome to the show.
Thank you for joining me again this week.
It is great to have you here. And if you clicked on this
episode, I have a feeling you either a just love the show and
want to hear me talk, or you arein the market for a new job.
Or you're super. Prepared and you just want to be
(00:22):
ready in case the dreamiest of dream jobs comes your way and
you want to own the interview. So today's episode is like I
said, all about upping your interview game.
Now I originally recorded this conversation with Jenna
Mulheron, who fun fact has sincemade a very exciting career
pivot of her own. And while she is no longer
(00:44):
running her business owned the interview, her years of
expertise and experience in HR and recruitment, plus the
strategies she shares in this episode are just so relevant
that we are going to air anyways.
So in this episode, you were going to hear us talk about how
do you can confidently prepare for an interview without
sounding over rehearsed, which Iknow is a really big, you know,
(01:05):
it's a fine balance there. The biggest mistakes that
candidates make and how to avoidthem, why your mindset matters
just as much as your resume and how you can really like, you
know, fine tune your mindset going into an interview and how
you can own your next interview even when you feel under
qualified. Jenna's advice is super
straightforward, actionable and just lovely.
(01:27):
She's a lovely human being and Ithink you're going to really
enjoy hearing tips from the inside of someone who's been in
a jar for over 15 years. She is wonderful and it's a must
listen for anybody who's in the job market.
So, without further ado, Jenna Mulheron.
You're listening to the All Figured Out podcast.
I'm your host, Andrea Barr. I'm a career coach for parents,
(01:51):
mom of two, and a self-proclaimed expert at
winging it. After 10 years in the corporate
world, two major career pivots, and navigating life with kids,
I've learned one thing. No parent.
Has it all figured out? And that's OK.
Here we're all about growing personally and professionally
while keeping family time sacred.
You'll get practical tips, career strategies, and musings
(02:14):
on life, plus guest experts to help us fill in the gaps.
So grab a coffee. Or hide in your car for some the
time. We're about to figure out this
work life and parenting. Stuff out together.
Channel hair, mohair hair damage.
It came out that was like milk. Not it's not Mulberry.
(02:38):
We're new friends, thanks for coming and meeting me IRL to
chat about interview things. Your career story, I appreciate
you being. Here.
Oh my gosh, I'm so. Excited I'm sitting at the only
interview in the flash. Love that you're sitting across
like this is totally my 5 two. I've been looking at those I'm
(03:01):
chairs the Piper song chair. I don't know that.
I think it's made for people with ADHD, of which I don't not
have ADHD. So it's so you can like sit
cross legged, like you can like sit in all these crazy
positions. I feel it could be really.
Nice, yes, I want to look that up.
OK. We have so much to cover today,
interviews being the crux of ourconversation, which I'm so
(03:23):
excited to get into. However, you also, and I ask
this to everybody, you also havevery fascinating career story
yourself. You've made a couple pivots much
like myself. You've done like a couple
different corporate stints in different ways.
You had two children along the way, and you are now your own
business owner and have done that since having children.
(03:44):
So we're going to try to rein this in.
This could be our entire conversation.
Maybe there's going to have to be a part, too.
But let's start from beginning. I know you were in retail.
You worked for Lululemon and youdid that.
What was that like? I think so many of us have
aspired to, like, do the little lemon thing.
Yeah. Tell us about that early career.
OK, so when I decided to apply for a job at Lululemon, it was
(04:06):
to be like a this will be fun. I'm just gonna go work on the
sales floor. I had just come off working for
the Olympics for two years. And so I was, you know, that
ends. And that's kind of an
interesting scenario because it's a contract.
You know what's limited, you know what's ending.
And then that was my first, like, real job in the corporate
(04:27):
world. And then, yeah, so then that
ended and I was thinking, what am I going to do next?
I'm just going to go work on theretail floor, Lululemon.
So I joined Lululemon and at first it was very strange
because they were still at a time of encouraging people to go
to Landmark and like all these different things.
And it was also language that I had hadn't heard before or like,
(04:50):
like grown up talking about maybe, maybe subconsciously my
parents were gearing us towards like personal responsibility and
choice and all of those things. But it was like the language
that was spoken and like sharingfeedback with people and things
like that. So that was a very big workplace
culture shock, I would say at first.
(05:11):
But the best thing is that people, I learned so much in
leadership. I always say I got my MBA in
leadership because when you're working in a retail environment,
you are dealing with people coming in there.
All the issues come up because there's many people.
It's not like you just have two direct reports.
(05:32):
You have 20 or 30 or 40 director.
So you hear all the things. So you start to learn like, OK,
how am I going to deal with the person that keeps showing up
later? Just like the simple things or
the person that insulted this guest or insulted this other
team member and had immediate conversations and how to stay
unbiased in those situations. Like all the things.
(05:53):
So I learned so much about myself, but also about
leadership. Parenting.
Oh yes. What a foreshadow.
Like as you're saying that, I'm like, I'm thinking about your
two daughters and I'm like, that's incredible.
Like, yeah, no responsibility. Like all of that work.
Yeah. Wow, wow.
Yes. And I think it's it's hard to
teach like personal responsibility and and choice,
(06:15):
like a choice is everything. You have choice and everything
that you do. Say more about choice.
What do you mean when you say choice?
Yeah, in this context, what do you mean?
Yeah, like when? Well, when I think about career,
like I feel stuck. I don't have any choice.
I have to keep working here. I have to keep paying the bills.
I have to keep saying yes to my boss because because if I don't,
(06:39):
AB and C will happen. It's like you actually have the
choice in everything that you do.
And so you could say no, you could quit your job.
What does that mean? It might mean that you can't pay
your bills for a month. It might mean that you actually
have to save a little bit more. It might mean that you have to
take on a second job. Like it's not going to be
perfect when you say yes or no to things.
(07:02):
You have to there's, there's other maybe sacrifices or
compromises or things that you have to make in order to get
closer to the thing that you might want.
But yeah, when I think when people say like, oh, I can't do
that or I have to do it this way, I'm like, well, you're
choosing that. It's to not to stay the same is
also a choice. Yes, exactly.
(07:23):
Because of we have to talk aboutprivilege.
Because there is an element of, there is of course an element of
privilege. In 100%.
So we're talking from that baseline of like where we are in
North America, where we are in life, Like, yeah, yeah, I know
we don't have to call that out, but.
No, I think it is important. Yeah, Yeah, there's baseline.
Yeah, Yeah, I like that. OK.
(07:44):
Lulu Lemon, I know you got into leadership.
So then the the retail career took you into a regional
position. So you're kind of doing more,
you're skewing more to the business side.
You're starting to lead the leaders.
Yes. And at what point does a person
in the height and the heyday of Lululemon yes, make the choice?
(08:05):
To leave, OK, this is the best. I always say to people, I think
that everyone when they're working on an organization is
like, I am here at the best moment in time.
Like because of the people that you're with and like the
circumstances that are happening, maybe who's leading
the business at that time, like maybe certain rules haven't been
put into place or whatever they are.
(08:26):
Yeah, I feel like everyone has that like moment where they feel
like that. But yes, so I, I made my way
through Lulu Lemon, went over tothe corporate side, business
side, was always like really interested in learning and
development, training people andthe people side of things.
And what I recognized and had some leaders in the area of the
(08:48):
business that I wanted to steer into, which was HR.
And at the time, the people who were leading that area were
like, we need people who have like true experience, not just
like leading people within the business, but have true
experience with an HR certification and all the
things, which has changed since.But at the time they were like,
(09:09):
if you want to work in HR here, you've got to have the
certifications, blah, blah, blah.
So I started kind of loosely perusing around like, where
could I, where could I go and gain this experience?
And so then I found somewhere that would take me, which is
also actually, I, I feel like I'm going off topic, right?
Now no, I love. It So what was interesting or
(09:32):
like cool at this time is I think a lot of people will say
to me like I don't have any experience in this, but I want
to do this job. Yes.
And so on paper, I didn't have the HR experience, but I had I
had I had like I was just talking about like I was leading
these people. I was having tough
conversations. I was sharing feedback with
(09:53):
people. I was developing them into
different roles and positions that they wanted us having
difficult conversations. I was letting people go.
I was dealing with like all the things that you would in HR as
well. And so on paper, I didn't have
the certification, but I had allthose experiences.
So there was another retailer inVancouver who the person leading
(10:16):
at the time was looking for an HR person for retail.
And so I thought someone I knew was working there and I reached
out to them and said, what do you think about me for this
role? And they said, I don't know,
it's not going to pay as much, blah, blah, blah.
You should talk to the hiring manager.
So I got on the phone with them.They kind of reiterated the same
thing, like this isn't going to pay what you want.
(10:39):
You don't quite have like all ofthe experiences.
Why don't you come in and meet with us?
So I had my interviews with themand at the end of the interviews
they said, OK, we're going to, we're going to take A chance on
you. We're going to hire you because
you have all of those in store experiences, your training
experience, your leadership experiences.
You have to go and get your certification within the year.
(10:59):
So I took a chance and I, I reached out and knowing like,
yes, I don't have this and this and this on the job posting, but
this is what I want to do and got in front of the right
people. I shared with them like this is
what I do have and then they came back to me and compromised.
OK, we're going to take you on, but you have to do this in order
to stay on with us. So within like 8 months or so, I
(11:24):
wrote my test to get my CPHR and, and then and then I got it
because I had, according to CPHR, all the competencies that
you need for HR. I had all of those things over
all the course of my career up to that point.
So then with that combined with my test, combined with like all
the other qualifications that you needed, I got my
(11:46):
certification. OK, I know a lot of people who
have failed that test the first time.
Kids are also not like a test taker.
I never took it. But like that's well done.
Like that's what a testament to you.
What a testament to not discounting your like or what an
example of not discounting or taking yourself out of the
running before you allow them the chance to even see you.
(12:09):
Right. It's like so often, perhaps
especially as women were like, oh, I don't think they're going
to want me or like, I might might not be.
How do you know that you're not right?
And how do you know that they'renot going to want you?
Totally like go have the conversation.
Let them LS. Yes, and allow yourself to like,
you know, play the right stringsto like, get in the room, like
go chat with somebody who could vouch for you and your
(12:31):
character. Yes.
To elect to have that, like, maybe on paper you wouldn't have
gotten through the TSA if that was the thing.
Yeah. But what a shame if they
wouldn't have, like, seen you because they could have some,
like, classical HR person come in. 0 retail chops, 0
understanding of the business. Like having worked in retail
myself, it is a different beast.Oh, totally.
It is a completely different beast than somebody who's doing
(12:53):
like traditional HR anywhere. Yeah, tech, whatever.
So I love that. I love that like you went for
it. I think it's oh, it's so that's
so inspiring too, because that'sa pivot.
That's a huge pivot. And did you take the pay cut?
I did OK. So they they actually came up
when they offered me the role, they offered it to me.
(13:15):
I ended up negotiating 10 grand more it the original salary was
like, I want to say 60 grand less than what I was making
like. Significantly less.
But I was also working in, at that point in time, I was
working in the retail position that bonused quite a bit by
(13:36):
retail sales as well. Even though I was supporting
from the business side, I was still like integrated within the
retail floor. So I got bonuses huge.
So that's why there was such a discrepancy as well.
So I knew that Lululemon pays their retail people and bonuses
them well because they want you to expect the time they wanted
you to see like I can make a career out of this.
(13:58):
Yeah. So, yes, so when?
So I negotiated 10 grand more, but they had offered me 30 grand
more than they originally said the job was going to be posted
for, OK. So I think they were more
realistic after our conversation.
So OK, if we want this person, we're going to have to pay a
little bit more. This is the opportunity that
(14:18):
they can provide. We're not going to hire.
They originally, I think want tohire two people.
They decided just to hire me. So then I opened up some salary
as well for them to be able to offer me a little bit more or a
lot more. And then I negotiated that 10
grand more, which brought me to like a level that I'm like, OK,
this is still not what I want, but the experience and the role
(14:39):
is what I want. Yeah.
So it's it's, I have taken a paycut in most places that I've
pivoted to. And I have always taken the pay
cut knowing that I'm getting like, there's something else.
It's not always about money. And maybe that's part privilege
as well, like you were saying earlier.
But I know what the baseline is to cover the cost to live.
(15:03):
Yes. And then to go and gain that
experience is worth something tome.
And every time I've had a pulse in my salary within like the
year and a half so it hasn't. I've just trusted that I'll get
back to where I want to be. And yes, the pay cut was worth
it at most times. Well, and you're taking that pay
(15:25):
cut to have an investment in yourself and in this future
career of which when you're passionate and really good at
what you do and you're finding more alignment with the work
that you want to be doing, yes, you will always be better at
that job. You will always then become like
even more of a star. And so then you are going to
catapult yourself. And like so many people, I don't
know how many people listening right now are like, yeah, I
would take a 10 or 20K cut rightnow to be happy.
(15:49):
Yeah. Like, how much would you pay to
just be marginally like, just tobe happier in your nine to five?
Yes, I have been in that situation so many times.
I'm like, this isn't worth it. Like I would give.
Money right now yes to not. To not be in this totally it
can. It's such a mental like thing
that's so interesting. It's so interesting.
(16:09):
And we used before you said likethey took a chance on me.
I think you're taking a chance, like you took a chance on them
too, because you're like, I'm leaving something that's so good
where I've built such a, I'm sure an incredible reputation.
I've got pals like I've got. There might have been equity at
stake. Like there was lots of things
like in that. But good for you for like just
(16:30):
being like, no, like I'm going to, I'm going to go for it.
Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
And then before we keep moving on, but I have to ask, like when
you're making a move like that and you feel like they're, you
do feel like they're taking a chance on you, which they are,
they didn't know how like if youwere going to get the
designation, they didn't know what your HR chops would be
like. Was there a level like, how did
you feel around that? What's the word like the
(16:55):
pressure? Was there a pressure element to
it in wrapped up in that? No, So you know, OK, but I think
in making the choice, I just, I knew, no, this is like strict, I
was being strategic. Like this is a strategic move
for myself. Maybe the pressure of like, OK,
I have to accept that I'm getting paid less money than I
want to, but I also am getting paid right now based on what
(17:20):
they know about me and my value,truly what I'm bringing to the
table. I think this is fair.
So I wasn't like going into it like this is rubbish, like I'm
not they, they don't see my value.
I didn't feel like that. So that was strategic.
OK. Then when I got there, what was
so freeing was something that I didn't realize was happening at
(17:43):
the previous job, which was thatI almost felt stifled in what I
could offer that organization and actually see that I could
make change and really help progress the business, even
though I'm sure I was and definitely in individual
(18:03):
conversations, but the organization as a whole, when
it's like such a beast, sometimes it's hard to see a
beast being the organization, sometimes hard to see like how
to shift the needle and like seewhere you can make change.
So at this organization, it was smaller and right away I was
like, holy small. I, I am bringing so much to the
(18:23):
table. I am making changes.
I am supporting these people. I could really, like, feel I was
making a difference, and that felt amazing.
So there wasn't any pressure. I'm not sure exactly what you
were referring to, but when I was thinking about pressure, I
was thinking, oh, like pressure to get my designation or prove
myself maybe with them. Yeah.
(18:44):
So that they knew, yes, she was the right hire.
I've never felt like that because they were just so.
Oh, my gosh, we're so happy you're here.
This is great. Can you do this?
Oh, my goodness. OK.
You can do this like that. And like doing things that they
didn't even know that they needed.
Because of my experience, I could like see the the gaps or
(19:04):
the low hanging fruit. As yet to say totally was
amazing and just rebuilt my confidence up so much.
That is so cool. I wonder, and I wonder if like
making a pivot like this, like when I made my pivot, I had
gained a couple of years in advertising, for instance, and
like you would gained like yearswithin little Lemon appeasement
(19:25):
organization highly reputable. There's a level of confidence in
like making that type of pivot. Like you've got to have like
everybody has ego, like you've got to have a bit of like self
assurance and like confidence inyourself outside of like the
skills because anybody can learnanything.
Yes, but you were like, it was it probably was helpful, but you
were like, no, I know that I'm good at what I do once I learn
(19:46):
the thing and figure out the machine.
And so that confidence to be like, OK, we're going to like
write an employee handbook, which maybe there wasn't at that
time, which is always the first thing that they get people tend
to. And you're like, yeah, I can do
this. Like I had to train on the
handbook like easy. And they're like, Oh my.
And how nice to like be appreciated in that, in that
regard as well. OK, so at that organization, I
(20:10):
know that you had your first child.
Is that correct? Second, OK, OK, let's talk about
your motherhood journey, OK. And going into motherhood in the
midst of a pilot, I guess. OK, so the first baby that I
had, I was in a position, I was a retail trainer, so I traveled
across Canada, which was awesome.
(20:31):
And my pregnancy was quite good,like chill, like I didn't have
any complications. I felt good, all the things.
And I think a lot of people feelthat way in their first
pregnancy especially. So anyways, I had that like
stereotypical like great first pregnancy, which was awesome.
So I was traveling, I was working, whatever.
I was not in a stressful environment at all.
(20:52):
It was great. Went on my mat leave, soaked it
up, was spending time with my little.
Everything clicked there, which was awesome.
And while I was on that leave, Ihad heard of this position open
up that I was interested in, which was a regional manager
position, which was looking and I had never done it before.
And traditionally at Lululemon, what would happen at the time
(21:16):
for training managers was you were in a regional manager
position, then you would go intoa training manager position.
I think it was just from going needy, experiencing like multi
unit management, a little bit more business acumen, that
you've gained a little bit more exposure to certain people at
the support office, all of thosethings.
(21:36):
Before people then leaned into this training manager role.
So anyways, I kind of did the reverse of that.
So when I had heard that this regional manager role had opened
up, I just thought this would begreat to add to My Portfolio of
different roles that I've had. I'm going to apply for it and
see what happens. So I applied for it.
I was off. I was probably at my nine month,
(21:57):
yeah, I've been off for nine months at that point.
I was going to take a year because in Canada at the time, I
could take 12 months or had the opportunity to take 10 or 12
months rather. And I ended up getting it.
So I went back at, I ended up going back to work at either 10
or 11 months. That's how old my daughter was
at that time. And that was a great decision
(22:21):
for my resume and from what I learned and exposure and all of
those things. But what I quickly realized is I
was also traveling a lot in thatrole, and that was too much.
Like I missed my daughter's first steps.
Like her true first steps, I missed not her first steps for
(22:41):
me. Yeah, but I did miss them.
So things like that, which I made the choice to be like in
this role and to be away for multiple days or week at a time,
but new by about 10 months that it wasn't going to work that
long term for me. Yeah.
(23:02):
So I 10 months into the role. Ten months into the role.
So I started. Exploring, OK, what else could I
do that I'm not like on the roadall the time and found a
different role in Lulu Lemon, but then also quickly realized
that that wasn't the right position.
And that's when I started exploring like the HR realm and
pivoted OK other organization. I think it's really important to
(23:24):
call a lot of these pieces out there.
You just called out in that there's so much context around
pivots like this. Like the fact that you were
like, hey, man, I'll try out thetravel thing.
You're like, OK, great, check, try that.
Didn't like being away for that long.
Yes. And then the context of being
like, OK, what would look good on my resume?
Like so many things have to lineup to find what that next step
(23:45):
is. It's not just like, OK, next I'm
going to do this. It's like, well, you have to
take in the whole picture. Like, how much do you want to be
working and traveling and what role do you want to be in?
What's appropriate within the organization?
Like maybe at that time, like you said, it wasn't appropriate
for you to be going into HR. Yeah, with a little lemon
because it was this whole thing around like the designations.
(24:06):
So that's really, it's really important that you were like,
OK, this is all of the context. Ergo I want to be an HR as hard
as it is, I'm going to look externally.
Yeah. So while well done, like so
brave of you to like also be like, OK, that must have been
very hard because a lot of people like when I worked at
Aritzia, I know I don't, I don'tmind saying this it.
(24:28):
I know that there was a lot of people who wanted to just stay
at Aritzia. And this isn't any organization.
This is not unique to Russia, but there was people that I
would encounter who were like, I'll do anything, just I want to
stay here. And you know what, that was
right for them because their their career was Aritzia versus
for me and a lot of people I know a lot of people I coach,
(24:49):
it's like, no, no, my career is my craft.
Yes, It's not the organization. And so I think for you, you're
realizing like, no, no, I have like a passion in this realm of
like people development. My craft is now really becoming
my career. It's no longer.
Yeah. That's hard, but cool.
(25:11):
Yeah. I think the other thing I want
to highlight in that like those little pivots to like the bigger
pivot into HR is that I did makesome moves for my resume.
And I also was like, I don't know, who knows if this is going
to work out. And I think that can stop people
(25:32):
to be like, well, what if I makethis move and then it's not the
right thing? Well, I am like proof of that,
that I have made these moves andsome of them weren't the right
things necessarily. Like there's good things that I
can take away and they weren't necessarily the right moves, but
it brought me closer to where I need to be.
And so even though that's like so cheesy, I think, and I always
say this, it's like it's going to bring you one step closer to
(25:54):
where you were going to. You need to be or want to be or
are going to be more happy because I because I experienced.
That yes, the number of times that I acquire relate career
transitions to dating is like, unbelievable.
Unlike sitting in A room, you know, which, like, I've had this
conversation like probably twicewith like, different clients
where I'm like, OK, hear me out for a second.
(26:16):
Let's talk about dating. And like, what are you up to?
Rock? But it's so true.
Like, are you going to not date,like the university or high
school boyfriend because you're like, what if it doesn't work
out? Yes.
Oh, you never think like that. Yeah.
I don't know. You're like, no, I want to like,
try this. Like, chances are most of us
know the high school boyfriend. Most of the high school
(26:37):
boyfriends. Don't work out, sorry.
Yeah, yeah, like, right. But but you're like, no, I'm
just going to like give it, giveit a try.
But I always said, like every person I dated like got me one
step closer to like Scotty. And it was like I realized what
I liked your didn't like. Yeah, that was like, that was
really cool. Or like, ooh.
That's very true. Hard no.
Yeah, he's like your parameters of which you wouldn't like I
wouldn't know my career parameters which I was talking
(26:58):
about with clients. It's like what are like your
heart like non negotiables and things like that.
You wouldn't know that unless I had different experiences.
Yeah, because you don't know. You don't know.
Yes. And all of those experiences to
tie this to interviewing are what you get to talk about in
your interviews too, so. Just stories.
You're just like that person that like reams you out in front
of like an entire like your people.
(27:18):
You're like, oh, this is a good interview Story 1.
Day I have built resilience. Add that to the list of things
that I should talk. About yes, so a couple.
So another babe, a couple more pivots, What else?
What are some other? Notable pieces of your started
that other role truly in HR I went on my second mat leave.
So with that one, I was also, I had started my side business or
(27:44):
my, my business at the time on the interview, which was really
interesting because I don't eventhink that I was connecting.
It was at the time of COVID, which so many people started
businesses during this time. And I, so it was May of that
year and I don't even think thatI had put it together.
(28:04):
Like all of these people are going to be laid off from jobs
and have a hard time getting jobs or not working.
Like I didn't even compute that I had started on the interview
because I had made these pivots.People were reaching out like I,
I'm thinking about doing something different, like asking
me for a consultation or advice or whatever.
And I realized over my course ofprobably my professional life,
(28:27):
I'd always supported people withinterviewing and so like
casualty supporting people with interviews.
So I'm like, I feel like this isa business that I could really
help people with. And then that kind of like
turned into something. So when I went on my mat leave
with my second babe, I was really, I was in a different
mindset. I wasn't like very like laze
(28:49):
fair, like let's just go for walks all the time and like hang
out. I was working on the business
and she was beside me. So I was doing that and yeah, so
that was a very different dynamic of mat we've.
Yes, yeah. And so you were.
And I feel like you were just going with like what you were
craving in the moment too. And I wonder if like having a
(29:12):
SEC, having the second having having another baby who was
like, you know, a daycare with ananny or who wherever, like she
was at that point school, you were like I.
Need a bit of an outlet? Yes.
There was something that you were.
Needing like a little bit of creativity.
Yeah. Yeah.
Our oldest. That's a good point.
Our oldest, she was going to herdaycare and the youngest,
(29:33):
obviously, the newborn was with me.
I was looking after her, yeah. I don't know if enough people
talk about, like, different mindsets in those early
postpartum days. Like we talked a lot about PD
PBA, like yeah, which is so important and I had like all of
it, but but there was like this level of creativity that I had
(29:54):
in that first year with both of them that was like, I was like,
can I bottle this up and like drink this later?
Because this is unreal. My mind was just flourishes.
So cool, right? How you like have that
inspiration and just strike while the iron is.
Hot. And I think probably a lot of it
has to do with just maybe 1 lessthing to have to like and that
(30:17):
less thing of like the day-to-day looking after
yourself to go to work to then be doing that job or whatever.
If you're going to a traditional9 to 5, whatever it is, maybe
just freeing that up from the space of not thinking about that
allows for more, which I think just is more proof of how
(30:40):
everyone, including myself, needs to give themselves more
time to just be free of thinkingabout anything else.
Like, and meditation is not for everyone.
It could be meditation, but it could literally just be going
for a walk and listening to somemusic or whatever it is just to
see what comes into your mind. It's so true.
(31:03):
Oh, my goodness. OK, so then we've got to finish.
We've got to finish the career story.
Then we're getting into, yeah, we're going to interviews.
But I'm like, still on the edge of my seat.
I know your story, but I'm stilllike, what happens next?
You leave? Said retailer.
Yes, so I left that retailer andat that time I, my my boss who
(31:24):
was working there, decided to leave, who was a mentor and
someone that I really, because as we all know, this was like my
true first HR role. And so it made sense in my brain
that I wanted or I guess maybe there was a like a little bit of
lack of confidence there too of like, OK, if she leaves and
she's like my go to for like, and I need to really escalate
(31:47):
things from the HR perspective, she's not going to be there.
I don't know if it makes sense for me to stay here not having
this person there as well. So then that made me think, is
this the right time to start on the interview, which I then took
the leap. I'm just going to go all in with
on the interview, which I did for four months and then I got.
(32:12):
Scared part of your story. Yeah.
And thank you for opening up. That's OK.
So 4. Months.
So four months I did that. Yeah.
I got scared because I was like,how am I going to make money off
of this? And I just kept thinking in my
brain, Drake and stand how they're like, if you're not
making money, this is a hobby. Like that just kept me playing
in my brain. And I wanted to see traction
(32:33):
more quickly because I was getting so much positive
reinforcement from people of like, this is such a good thing.
And I felt like it was the rightthing and it was good, but I
wasn't monetarily seeing it likecome to fruition in the way that
I wanted to. So I got too scared and I
reverted back to going into corporate, went back into
corporate and then into consultancy for the next, maybe
(32:56):
we'll call it like a year and a half or so.
And then realized I need to workon my own vision and goals and
go back to own the interview andreally give it a true shot
versus yeah, it's like assuming because it didn't work in the
Fort, which yes, as we talk about it, it sounds so
ridiculous. It was like it was four months.
(33:16):
But at that time I just, I couldn't, no, I couldn't push
through everyday thinking, wow, is this going to work or not?
I love this. I love this.
This is like, it's so real life because all we see are the
Instagram accounts that are like, start a digital shop,
start a digital product store and you're going to make like,
see, I'm like making 20,000. Dollars a day.
(33:39):
I went and it's like, and then we go into that and we're like,
what the heck, Like this is likethis isn't happening.
I feel scarcity. I'm this isn't right in this
moment. Like whatever, you know, talk
about context and circumstances.You're like, hey, circumstances
or my mindset around this just aren't quite working.
I want to give corporate. More shot.
(33:59):
Yeah. And then you're like, OK, now I
want to go back and give only interview another shot.
Yes. And just like, talk about
choice, talk about like, yes, you're allowed to change your
mind and you're allowed to do itwithout having to apologize.
Yes, someone actually said to me, why do you keep doing this?
Oh, get out of here. Get out of here.
Few reasons but the main 1 is like I am just following my gut
(34:26):
and my intuition and like what Ineed in that moment.
I don't know like. They're probably like Sally, who
works at a bank. They work for the BDC.
They've got a very crunchy pension.
I know exactly who this person is that's saying this, you know,
and you don't have to confirm ordeny, but I, I know you, Sally.
Like, you know, Sally, but I think they they came from it.
(34:46):
Yeah, from a place of curiosity.But I definitely was like, oh,
you're you're giving me proof that people are questioning like
why she keep doing this. But it is, you know, this comes
back to choice. I can choose to like be like
that is proof and make it mean something and then not and then
what, pivot again and go back todoing something else or feel
(35:10):
like I have I'm stuck in this. Like I am not stuck in anything.
I like, love this. I want to be doing this.
And I'm so happy and I'm so happy that we're here.
I'm so happy we're here. OK, we are going to do 2 parts
of this because I, I want to treat this as its own episode
and let's get into interviewing.That way people can like toggle
(35:32):
back between the two and if theyjust need their interview hit
before then we'll do that. So, OK, if we wrap up this
segment of the interview, yes, Jana today as we reflect on
where you've come from in your in your career and own the
interview and everything like socool, so incredible.
What are you still trying to figure out today?
(35:53):
Thing that Oh yes wait, what do I want?
To what do you feel like today in this moment?
Yeah, thing. OK, so something that has been
on my mind as of late that I just posted about to was about
forgiving yourself faster. So I am incredibly hard on
myself and I see it kind of liketrickle into my like children as
(36:16):
well. Like I can see how I don't let
go of things and like put so much pressure on myself that I
can see my oldest doing that. And so that is like a huge wake
up call for me of like, holy smokes, because I don't feel
like I'm around her doing that. But clearly I am because I've
seen it her display the same kind of patterns as me.
(36:37):
So I will hold on to things likeif I do something that I'm like
embarrassed about or ashamed about or mad at myself, they
didn't show up in this in ABC why or didn't do the thing that
I said that I was going to do ontime or whatever it is.
I will hold on to it and just gointo this like I, I will make it
(37:00):
mean that like I'm not good enough.
I should be doing this like all of the things.
So I had heard this quote a yearago and it was forgive yourself
faster. It's like forgive and we don't
need to forget about it, but like move on more quickly.
And that is something that I am in constant practice that if I
like find myself in this spiral,I'm like, no, stop.
(37:23):
Like it's done. We don't need to keep going like
we, as in me, don't need. To keep and you don't have to
say like you don't have to have that situation where you didn't
do the thing on time based on your own timeline and say and
then make it mean something about you.
Like I am somebody who you neverfinishes things on time or
whatever. Is that part of it?
It's like there's like this forgiveness of like, no, I'm not
(37:45):
going to make it be my identity.Yes.
There's just something that. Happened like, so I'm really
quick example. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I had been saying part of part of going out with on the
interview, like full on was I'm going to work from 10:00 AM to
3:00 PM. That is my, I mean like of
course work also spills over on other days and whatever, but
(38:07):
generally speaking, I'm going towork 2:50.
And this week I was like in a rabbit pool and was working till
6:00 or 6:30 and I had picked upmy daughter from school.
She was on the iPad that whole time, and after I was like, what
have I done? I totally went against something
(38:29):
I said I wasn't going to do. This is one of the big reasons
why I want to own my own business, is to be more like
with the girls, all these things.
Yeah. So I was like, Nope, You know
what, this was one day and I like went over to Miller at at
night time. I was like Mills, like I didn't
my intention wasn't to not spend3 1/2 extra hours on work.
(38:53):
And I really want to be in the practice of like stopping work
at 3. And so like I had a she didn't
care. She was like.
Whatever, I got angry. But I was like, no, I want to
say it out loud because I want her to know.
Like, I don't want you to be on the iPad for 3 1/2 hours.
Yeah, 3 1/2 hours this she was on it.
I've had straight forward while I was doing this.
(39:13):
So anyways, it's just about. And is there a reframe in there?
And I'm saying this because I literally just saw TikTok.
Yes, I love Tiktok. Whatever have the person who did
that. She did this thing where she was
basically like, you know, I'm 30years old.
I live at home with my parents. Like no, no, no, no, no.
And she was going on about like just her, her life contacts.
(39:34):
And then she said, but watch this, I'm 30 years old.
I get to spend this beautiful quality time with my parents,
right? And it was a total like change.
I wonder like in that were you also for yourself able to say
like, wow, I had a I was really excited about my work.
I got to spend three extra hoursand I got to tell Miller, but
like, hey, that's not really my intention.
I don't plan to do that all the time, but it just happened.
(39:56):
So that what were you able to reconcile that fee?
Yeah, sometimes, yeah. But I think that is such a good
reframe and like mindset to havearound.
Yeah, yeah. It's not always, not always easy
though. Yeah, OK, we're going to close
out this interview here and we're going to sneaky, sneaky.
Just keep recording because we're going to do Part 2.
(40:19):
So thank you for joining for Part 1.
Thank you for sharing your career story.
I absolutely love it. It's so inspiring.
And check out everybody who is listening or watching.
Check out Part 2 where we are going to go into brass tactics,
interview prep, career stuff, transactional, get the freaking
job that you want. And yes.
(40:40):
Have it. Thank you so much for listening
and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.
Hello everybody, welcome back tothe All Figured Out Podcast.
My name is Andrea Barr. Welcome to the show.
Thank you for joining me again this week.
It is great to have you here. And if you clicked on this
episode, I have a feeling you either a just love the show and
want to hear me talk, or you arein the market for a new job.
Or you're super. Prepared and you just want to be
(00:22):
ready in case the dreamiest of dream jobs comes your way and
you want to own the interview. So today's episode is like I
said, all about upping your interview game.
Now I originally recorded this conversation with Jenna
Mulheron, who fun fact has sincemade a very exciting career
pivot of her own. And while she is no longer
(00:44):
running her business owned the interview, her years of
expertise and experience in HR and recruitment, plus the
strategies she shares in this episode are just so relevant
that we are going to air anyways.
So in this episode, you were going to hear us talk about how
do you can confidently prepare for an interview without
sounding over rehearsed, which Iknow is a really big, you know,
(01:05):
it's a fine balance there. The biggest mistakes that
candidates make and how to avoidthem, why your mindset matters
just as much as your resume and how you can really like, you
know, fine tune your mindset going into an interview and how
you can own your next interview even when you feel under
qualified. Jenna's advice is super
straightforward, actionable and just lovely.
(01:27):
She's a lovely human being and Ithink you're going to really
enjoy hearing tips from the inside of someone who's been in
a jar for over 15 years. She is wonderful and it's a must
listen for anybody who's in the job market.
So, without further ado, Jenna Mulheron.
You're listening to the All Figured Out podcast.
I'm your host, Andrea Barr. I'm a career coach for parents,
(01:51):
mom of two, and a self-proclaimed expert at
winging it. After 10 years in the corporate
world, two major career pivots, and navigating life with kids,
I've learned one thing. No parent.
Has it all figured out? And that's OK.
Here we're all about growing personally and professionally
while keeping family time sacred.
You'll get practical tips, career strategies, and musings
(02:14):
on life, plus guest experts to help us fill in the gaps.
So grab a coffee. Or hide in your car for some the
time. We're about to figure out this
work life and parenting. Stuff out together.
Channel hair, mohair hair damage.
It came out that was like milk. Not it's not Mulberry.
(02:38):
We're new friends, thanks for coming and meeting me IRL to
chat about interview things. Your career story, I appreciate
you being. Here.
Oh my gosh, I'm so. Excited I'm sitting at the only
interview in the flash. Love that you're sitting across
like this is totally my 5 two. I've been looking at those I'm
(03:01):
chairs the Piper song chair. I don't know that.
I think it's made for people with ADHD, of which I don't not
have ADHD. So it's so you can like sit
cross legged, like you can like sit in all these crazy
positions. I feel it could be really.
Nice, yes, I want to look that up.
OK. We have so much to cover today,
interviews being the crux of ourconversation, which I'm so
(03:23):
excited to get into. However, you also, and I ask
this to everybody, you also havevery fascinating career story
yourself. You've made a couple pivots much
like myself. You've done like a couple
different corporate stints in different ways.
You had two children along the way, and you are now your own
business owner and have done that since having children.
(03:44):
So we're going to try to rein this in.
This could be our entire conversation.
Maybe there's going to have to be a part, too.
But let's start from beginning. I know you were in retail.
You worked for Lululemon and youdid that.
What was that like? I think so many of us have
aspired to, like, do the little lemon thing.
Yeah. Tell us about that early career.
OK, so when I decided to apply for a job at Lululemon, it was
(04:06):
to be like a this will be fun. I'm just gonna go work on the
sales floor. I had just come off working for
the Olympics for two years. And so I was, you know, that
ends. And that's kind of an
interesting scenario because it's a contract.
You know what's limited, you know what's ending.
And then that was my first, like, real job in the corporate
(04:27):
world. And then, yeah, so then that
ended and I was thinking, what am I going to do next?
I'm just going to go work on theretail floor, Lululemon.
So I joined Lululemon and at first it was very strange
because they were still at a time of encouraging people to go
to Landmark and like all these different things.
And it was also language that I had hadn't heard before or like,
(04:50):
like grown up talking about maybe, maybe subconsciously my
parents were gearing us towards like personal responsibility and
choice and all of those things. But it was like the language
that was spoken and like sharingfeedback with people and things
like that. So that was a very big workplace
culture shock, I would say at first.
(05:11):
But the best thing is that people, I learned so much in
leadership. I always say I got my MBA in
leadership because when you're working in a retail environment,
you are dealing with people coming in there.
All the issues come up because there's many people.
It's not like you just have two direct reports.
(05:32):
You have 20 or 30 or 40 director.
So you hear all the things. So you start to learn like, OK,
how am I going to deal with the person that keeps showing up
later? Just like the simple things or
the person that insulted this guest or insulted this other
team member and had immediate conversations and how to stay
unbiased in those situations. Like all the things.
(05:53):
So I learned so much about myself, but also about
leadership. Parenting.
Oh yes. What a foreshadow.
Like as you're saying that, I'm like, I'm thinking about your
two daughters and I'm like, that's incredible.
Like, yeah, no responsibility. Like all of that work.
Yeah. Wow, wow.
Yes. And I think it's it's hard to
teach like personal responsibility and and choice,
(06:15):
like a choice is everything. You have choice and everything
that you do. Say more about choice.
What do you mean when you say choice?
Yeah, in this context, what do you mean?
Yeah, like when? Well, when I think about career,
like I feel stuck. I don't have any choice.
I have to keep working here. I have to keep paying the bills.
I have to keep saying yes to my boss because because if I don't,
(06:39):
AB and C will happen. It's like you actually have the
choice in everything that you do.
And so you could say no, you could quit your job.
What does that mean? It might mean that you can't pay
your bills for a month. It might mean that you actually
have to save a little bit more. It might mean that you have to
take on a second job. Like it's not going to be
perfect when you say yes or no to things.
(07:02):
You have to there's, there's other maybe sacrifices or
compromises or things that you have to make in order to get
closer to the thing that you might want.
But yeah, when I think when people say like, oh, I can't do
that or I have to do it this way, I'm like, well, you're
choosing that. It's to not to stay the same is
also a choice. Yes, exactly.
(07:23):
Because of we have to talk aboutprivilege.
Because there is an element of, there is of course an element of
privilege. In 100%.
So we're talking from that baseline of like where we are in
North America, where we are in life, Like, yeah, yeah, I know
we don't have to call that out, but.
No, I think it is important. Yeah, Yeah, there's baseline.
Yeah, Yeah, I like that. OK.
(07:44):
Lulu Lemon, I know you got into leadership.
So then the the retail career took you into a regional
position. So you're kind of doing more,
you're skewing more to the business side.
You're starting to lead the leaders.
Yes. And at what point does a person
in the height and the heyday of Lululemon yes, make the choice?
(08:05):
To leave, OK, this is the best. I always say to people, I think
that everyone when they're working on an organization is
like, I am here at the best moment in time.
Like because of the people that you're with and like the
circumstances that are happening, maybe who's leading
the business at that time, like maybe certain rules haven't been
put into place or whatever they are.
(08:26):
Yeah, I feel like everyone has that like moment where they feel
like that. But yes, so I, I made my way
through Lulu Lemon, went over tothe corporate side, business
side, was always like really interested in learning and
development, training people andthe people side of things.
And what I recognized and had some leaders in the area of the
(08:48):
business that I wanted to steer into, which was HR.
And at the time, the people who were leading that area were
like, we need people who have like true experience, not just
like leading people within the business, but have true
experience with an HR certification and all the
things, which has changed since.But at the time they were like,
(09:09):
if you want to work in HR here, you've got to have the
certifications, blah, blah, blah.
So I started kind of loosely perusing around like, where
could I, where could I go and gain this experience?
And so then I found somewhere that would take me, which is
also actually, I, I feel like I'm going off topic, right?
Now no, I love. It So what was interesting or
(09:32):
like cool at this time is I think a lot of people will say
to me like I don't have any experience in this, but I want
to do this job. Yes.
And so on paper, I didn't have the HR experience, but I had I
had I had like I was just talking about like I was leading
these people. I was having tough
conversations. I was sharing feedback with
(09:53):
people. I was developing them into
different roles and positions that they wanted us having
difficult conversations. I was letting people go.
I was dealing with like all the things that you would in HR as
well. And so on paper, I didn't have
the certification, but I had allthose experiences.
So there was another retailer inVancouver who the person leading
(10:16):
at the time was looking for an HR person for retail.
And so I thought someone I knew was working there and I reached
out to them and said, what do you think about me for this
role? And they said, I don't know,
it's not going to pay as much, blah, blah, blah.
You should talk to the hiring manager.
So I got on the phone with them.They kind of reiterated the same
thing, like this isn't going to pay what you want.
(10:39):
You don't quite have like all ofthe experiences.
Why don't you come in and meet with us?
So I had my interviews with themand at the end of the interviews
they said, OK, we're going to, we're going to take A chance on
you. We're going to hire you because
you have all of those in store experiences, your training
experience, your leadership experiences.
You have to go and get your certification within the year.
(10:59):
So I took a chance and I, I reached out and knowing like,
yes, I don't have this and this and this on the job posting, but
this is what I want to do and got in front of the right
people. I shared with them like this is
what I do have and then they came back to me and compromised.
OK, we're going to take you on, but you have to do this in order
to stay on with us. So within like 8 months or so, I
(11:24):
wrote my test to get my CPHR and, and then and then I got it
because I had, according to CPHR, all the competencies that
you need for HR. I had all of those things over
all the course of my career up to that point.
So then with that combined with my test, combined with like all
the other qualifications that you needed, I got my
(11:46):
certification. OK, I know a lot of people who
have failed that test the first time.
Kids are also not like a test taker.
I never took it. But like that's well done.
Like that's what a testament to you.
What a testament to not discounting your like or what an
example of not discounting or taking yourself out of the
running before you allow them the chance to even see you.
(12:09):
Right. It's like so often, perhaps
especially as women were like, oh, I don't think they're going
to want me or like, I might might not be.
How do you know that you're not right?
And how do you know that they'renot going to want you?
Totally like go have the conversation.
Let them LS. Yes, and allow yourself to like,
you know, play the right stringsto like, get in the room, like
go chat with somebody who could vouch for you and your
(12:31):
character. Yes.
To elect to have that, like, maybe on paper you wouldn't have
gotten through the TSA if that was the thing.
Yeah. But what a shame if they
wouldn't have, like, seen you because they could have some,
like, classical HR person come in. 0 retail chops, 0
understanding of the business. Like having worked in retail
myself, it is a different beast.Oh, totally.
It is a completely different beast than somebody who's doing
(12:53):
like traditional HR anywhere. Yeah, tech, whatever.
So I love that. I love that like you went for
it. I think it's oh, it's so that's
so inspiring too, because that'sa pivot.
That's a huge pivot. And did you take the pay cut?
I did OK. So they they actually came up
when they offered me the role, they offered it to me.
(13:15):
I ended up negotiating 10 grand more it the original salary was
like, I want to say 60 grand less than what I was making
like. Significantly less.
But I was also working in, at that point in time, I was
working in the retail position that bonused quite a bit by
(13:36):
retail sales as well. Even though I was supporting
from the business side, I was still like integrated within the
retail floor. So I got bonuses huge.
So that's why there was such a discrepancy as well.
So I knew that Lululemon pays their retail people and bonuses
them well because they want you to expect the time they wanted
you to see like I can make a career out of this.
(13:58):
Yeah. So, yes, so when?
So I negotiated 10 grand more, but they had offered me 30 grand
more than they originally said the job was going to be posted
for, OK. So I think they were more
realistic after our conversation.
So OK, if we want this person, we're going to have to pay a
little bit more. This is the opportunity that
(14:18):
they can provide. We're not going to hire.
They originally, I think want tohire two people.
They decided just to hire me. So then I opened up some salary
as well for them to be able to offer me a little bit more or a
lot more. And then I negotiated that 10
grand more, which brought me to like a level that I'm like, OK,
this is still not what I want, but the experience and the role
(14:39):
is what I want. Yeah.
So it's it's, I have taken a paycut in most places that I've
pivoted to. And I have always taken the pay
cut knowing that I'm getting like, there's something else.
It's not always about money. And maybe that's part privilege
as well, like you were saying earlier.
But I know what the baseline is to cover the cost to live.
(15:03):
Yes. And then to go and gain that
experience is worth something tome.
And every time I've had a pulse in my salary within like the
year and a half so it hasn't. I've just trusted that I'll get
back to where I want to be. And yes, the pay cut was worth
it at most times. Well, and you're taking that pay
(15:25):
cut to have an investment in yourself and in this future
career of which when you're passionate and really good at
what you do and you're finding more alignment with the work
that you want to be doing, yes, you will always be better at
that job. You will always then become like
even more of a star. And so then you are going to
catapult yourself. And like so many people, I don't
know how many people listening right now are like, yeah, I
would take a 10 or 20K cut rightnow to be happy.
(15:49):
Yeah. Like, how much would you pay to
just be marginally like, just tobe happier in your nine to five?
Yes, I have been in that situation so many times.
I'm like, this isn't worth it. Like I would give.
Money right now yes to not. To not be in this totally it
can. It's such a mental like thing
that's so interesting. It's so interesting.
(16:09):
And we used before you said likethey took a chance on me.
I think you're taking a chance, like you took a chance on them
too, because you're like, I'm leaving something that's so good
where I've built such a, I'm sure an incredible reputation.
I've got pals like I've got. There might have been equity at
stake. Like there was lots of things
like in that. But good for you for like just
(16:30):
being like, no, like I'm going to, I'm going to go for it.
Yeah. Oh, my goodness.
And then before we keep moving on, but I have to ask, like when
you're making a move like that and you feel like they're, you
do feel like they're taking a chance on you, which they are,
they didn't know how like if youwere going to get the
designation, they didn't know what your HR chops would be
like. Was there a level like, how did
you feel around that? What's the word like the
(16:55):
pressure? Was there a pressure element to
it in wrapped up in that? No, So you know, OK, but I think
in making the choice, I just, I knew, no, this is like strict, I
was being strategic. Like this is a strategic move
for myself. Maybe the pressure of like, OK,
I have to accept that I'm getting paid less money than I
want to, but I also am getting paid right now based on what
(17:20):
they know about me and my value,truly what I'm bringing to the
table. I think this is fair.
So I wasn't like going into it like this is rubbish, like I'm
not they, they don't see my value.
I didn't feel like that. So that was strategic.
OK. Then when I got there, what was
so freeing was something that I didn't realize was happening at
(17:43):
the previous job, which was thatI almost felt stifled in what I
could offer that organization and actually see that I could
make change and really help progress the business, even
though I'm sure I was and definitely in individual
(18:03):
conversations, but the organization as a whole, when
it's like such a beast, sometimes it's hard to see a
beast being the organization, sometimes hard to see like how
to shift the needle and like seewhere you can make change.
So at this organization, it was smaller and right away I was
like, holy small. I, I am bringing so much to the
(18:23):
table. I am making changes.
I am supporting these people. I could really, like, feel I was
making a difference, and that felt amazing.
So there wasn't any pressure. I'm not sure exactly what you
were referring to, but when I was thinking about pressure, I
was thinking, oh, like pressure to get my designation or prove
myself maybe with them. Yeah.
(18:44):
So that they knew, yes, she was the right hire.
I've never felt like that because they were just so.
Oh, my gosh, we're so happy you're here.
This is great. Can you do this?
Oh, my goodness. OK.
You can do this like that. And like doing things that they
didn't even know that they needed.
Because of my experience, I could like see the the gaps or
(19:04):
the low hanging fruit. As yet to say totally was
amazing and just rebuilt my confidence up so much.
That is so cool. I wonder, and I wonder if like
making a pivot like this, like when I made my pivot, I had
gained a couple of years in advertising, for instance, and
like you would gained like yearswithin little Lemon appeasement
(19:25):
organization highly reputable. There's a level of confidence in
like making that type of pivot. Like you've got to have like
everybody has ego, like you've got to have a bit of like self
assurance and like confidence inyourself outside of like the
skills because anybody can learnanything.
Yes, but you were like, it was it probably was helpful, but you
were like, no, I know that I'm good at what I do once I learn
(19:46):
the thing and figure out the machine.
And so that confidence to be like, OK, we're going to like
write an employee handbook, which maybe there wasn't at that
time, which is always the first thing that they get people tend
to. And you're like, yeah, I can do
this. Like I had to train on the
handbook like easy. And they're like, Oh my.
And how nice to like be appreciated in that, in that
regard as well. OK, so at that organization, I
(20:10):
know that you had your first child.
Is that correct? Second, OK, OK, let's talk about
your motherhood journey, OK. And going into motherhood in the
midst of a pilot, I guess. OK, so the first baby that I
had, I was in a position, I was a retail trainer, so I traveled
across Canada, which was awesome.
(20:31):
And my pregnancy was quite good,like chill, like I didn't have
any complications. I felt good, all the things.
And I think a lot of people feelthat way in their first
pregnancy especially. So anyways, I had that like
stereotypical like great first pregnancy, which was awesome.
So I was traveling, I was working, whatever.
I was not in a stressful environment at all.
(20:52):
It was great. Went on my mat leave, soaked it
up, was spending time with my little.
Everything clicked there, which was awesome.
And while I was on that leave, Ihad heard of this position open
up that I was interested in, which was a regional manager
position, which was looking and I had never done it before.
And traditionally at Lululemon, what would happen at the time
(21:16):
for training managers was you were in a regional manager
position, then you would go intoa training manager position.
I think it was just from going needy, experiencing like multi
unit management, a little bit more business acumen, that
you've gained a little bit more exposure to certain people at
the support office, all of thosethings.
(21:36):
Before people then leaned into this training manager role.
So anyways, I kind of did the reverse of that.
So when I had heard that this regional manager role had opened
up, I just thought this would begreat to add to My Portfolio of
different roles that I've had. I'm going to apply for it and
see what happens. So I applied for it.
I was off. I was probably at my nine month,
(21:57):
yeah, I've been off for nine months at that point.
I was going to take a year because in Canada at the time, I
could take 12 months or had the opportunity to take 10 or 12
months rather. And I ended up getting it.
So I went back at, I ended up going back to work at either 10
or 11 months. That's how old my daughter was
at that time. And that was a great decision
(22:21):
for my resume and from what I learned and exposure and all of
those things. But what I quickly realized is I
was also traveling a lot in thatrole, and that was too much.
Like I missed my daughter's first steps.
Like her true first steps, I missed not her first steps for
(22:41):
me. Yeah, but I did miss them.
So things like that, which I made the choice to be like in
this role and to be away for multiple days or week at a time,
but new by about 10 months that it wasn't going to work that
long term for me. Yeah.
(23:02):
So I 10 months into the role. Ten months into the role.
So I started. Exploring, OK, what else could I
do that I'm not like on the roadall the time and found a
different role in Lulu Lemon, but then also quickly realized
that that wasn't the right position.
And that's when I started exploring like the HR realm and
pivoted OK other organization. I think it's really important to
(23:24):
call a lot of these pieces out there.
You just called out in that there's so much context around
pivots like this. Like the fact that you were
like, hey, man, I'll try out thetravel thing.
You're like, OK, great, check, try that.
Didn't like being away for that long.
Yes. And then the context of being
like, OK, what would look good on my resume?
Like so many things have to lineup to find what that next step
(23:45):
is. It's not just like, OK, next I'm
going to do this. It's like, well, you have to
take in the whole picture. Like, how much do you want to be
working and traveling and what role do you want to be in?
What's appropriate within the organization?
Like maybe at that time, like you said, it wasn't appropriate
for you to be going into HR. Yeah, with a little lemon
because it was this whole thing around like the designations.
(24:06):
So that's really, it's really important that you were like,
OK, this is all of the context. Ergo I want to be an HR as hard
as it is, I'm going to look externally.
Yeah. So while well done, like so
brave of you to like also be like, OK, that must have been
very hard because a lot of people like when I worked at
Aritzia, I know I don't, I don'tmind saying this it.
(24:28):
I know that there was a lot of people who wanted to just stay
at Aritzia. And this isn't any organization.
This is not unique to Russia, but there was people that I
would encounter who were like, I'll do anything, just I want to
stay here. And you know what, that was
right for them because their their career was Aritzia versus
for me and a lot of people I know a lot of people I coach,
(24:49):
it's like, no, no, my career is my craft.
Yes, It's not the organization. And so I think for you, you're
realizing like, no, no, I have like a passion in this realm of
like people development. My craft is now really becoming
my career. It's no longer.
Yeah. That's hard, but cool.
(25:11):
Yeah. I think the other thing I want
to highlight in that like those little pivots to like the bigger
pivot into HR is that I did makesome moves for my resume.
And I also was like, I don't know, who knows if this is going
to work out. And I think that can stop people
(25:32):
to be like, well, what if I makethis move and then it's not the
right thing? Well, I am like proof of that,
that I have made these moves andsome of them weren't the right
things necessarily. Like there's good things that I
can take away and they weren't necessarily the right moves, but
it brought me closer to where I need to be.
And so even though that's like so cheesy, I think, and I always
say this, it's like it's going to bring you one step closer to
(25:54):
where you were going to. You need to be or want to be or
are going to be more happy because I because I experienced.
That yes, the number of times that I acquire relate career
transitions to dating is like, unbelievable.
Unlike sitting in A room, you know, which, like, I've had this
conversation like probably twicewith like, different clients
where I'm like, OK, hear me out for a second.
(26:16):
Let's talk about dating. And like, what are you up to?
Rock? But it's so true.
Like, are you going to not date,like the university or high
school boyfriend because you're like, what if it doesn't work
out? Yes.
Oh, you never think like that. Yeah.
I don't know. You're like, no, I want to like,
try this. Like, chances are most of us
know the high school boyfriend. Most of the high school
(26:37):
boyfriends. Don't work out, sorry.
Yeah, yeah, like, right. But but you're like, no, I'm
just going to like give it, giveit a try.
But I always said, like every person I dated like got me one
step closer to like Scotty. And it was like I realized what
I liked your didn't like. Yeah, that was like, that was
really cool. Or like, ooh.
That's very true. Hard no.
Yeah, he's like your parameters of which you wouldn't like I
wouldn't know my career parameters which I was talking
(26:58):
about with clients. It's like what are like your
heart like non negotiables and things like that.
You wouldn't know that unless I had different experiences.
Yeah, because you don't know. You don't know.
Yes. And all of those experiences to
tie this to interviewing are what you get to talk about in
your interviews too, so. Just stories.
You're just like that person that like reams you out in front
of like an entire like your people.
(27:18):
You're like, oh, this is a good interview Story 1.
Day I have built resilience. Add that to the list of things
that I should talk. About yes, so a couple.
So another babe, a couple more pivots, What else?
What are some other? Notable pieces of your started
that other role truly in HR I went on my second mat leave.
So with that one, I was also, I had started my side business or
(27:44):
my, my business at the time on the interview, which was really
interesting because I don't eventhink that I was connecting.
It was at the time of COVID, which so many people started
businesses during this time. And I, so it was May of that
year and I don't even think thatI had put it together.
(28:04):
Like all of these people are going to be laid off from jobs
and have a hard time getting jobs or not working.
Like I didn't even compute that I had started on the interview
because I had made these pivots.People were reaching out like I,
I'm thinking about doing something different, like asking
me for a consultation or advice or whatever.
And I realized over my course ofprobably my professional life,
(28:27):
I'd always supported people withinterviewing and so like
casualty supporting people with interviews.
So I'm like, I feel like this isa business that I could really
help people with. And then that kind of like
turned into something. So when I went on my mat leave
with my second babe, I was really, I was in a different
mindset. I wasn't like very like laze
(28:49):
fair, like let's just go for walks all the time and like hang
out. I was working on the business
and she was beside me. So I was doing that and yeah, so
that was a very different dynamic of mat we've.
Yes, yeah. And so you were.
And I feel like you were just going with like what you were
craving in the moment too. And I wonder if like having a
(29:12):
SEC, having the second having having another baby who was
like, you know, a daycare with ananny or who wherever, like she
was at that point school, you were like I.
Need a bit of an outlet? Yes.
There was something that you were.
Needing like a little bit of creativity.
Yeah. Yeah.
Our oldest. That's a good point.
Our oldest, she was going to herdaycare and the youngest,
(29:33):
obviously, the newborn was with me.
I was looking after her, yeah. I don't know if enough people
talk about, like, different mindsets in those early
postpartum days. Like we talked a lot about PD
PBA, like yeah, which is so important and I had like all of
it, but but there was like this level of creativity that I had
(29:54):
in that first year with both of them that was like, I was like,
can I bottle this up and like drink this later?
Because this is unreal. My mind was just flourishes.
So cool, right? How you like have that
inspiration and just strike while the iron is.
Hot. And I think probably a lot of it
has to do with just maybe 1 lessthing to have to like and that
(30:17):
less thing of like the day-to-day looking after
yourself to go to work to then be doing that job or whatever.
If you're going to a traditional9 to 5, whatever it is, maybe
just freeing that up from the space of not thinking about that
allows for more, which I think just is more proof of how
(30:40):
everyone, including myself, needs to give themselves more
time to just be free of thinkingabout anything else.
Like, and meditation is not for everyone.
It could be meditation, but it could literally just be going
for a walk and listening to somemusic or whatever it is just to
see what comes into your mind. It's so true.
(31:03):
Oh, my goodness. OK, so then we've got to finish.
We've got to finish the career story.
Then we're getting into, yeah, we're going to interviews.
But I'm like, still on the edge of my seat.
I know your story, but I'm stilllike, what happens next?
You leave? Said retailer.
Yes, so I left that retailer andat that time I, my my boss who
(31:24):
was working there, decided to leave, who was a mentor and
someone that I really, because as we all know, this was like my
true first HR role. And so it made sense in my brain
that I wanted or I guess maybe there was a like a little bit of
lack of confidence there too of like, OK, if she leaves and
she's like my go to for like, and I need to really escalate
(31:47):
things from the HR perspective, she's not going to be there.
I don't know if it makes sense for me to stay here not having
this person there as well. So then that made me think, is
this the right time to start on the interview, which I then took
the leap. I'm just going to go all in with
on the interview, which I did for four months and then I got.
(32:12):
Scared part of your story. Yeah.
And thank you for opening up. That's OK.
So 4. Months.
So four months I did that. Yeah.
I got scared because I was like,how am I going to make money off
of this? And I just kept thinking in my
brain, Drake and stand how they're like, if you're not
making money, this is a hobby. Like that just kept me playing
in my brain. And I wanted to see traction
(32:33):
more quickly because I was getting so much positive
reinforcement from people of like, this is such a good thing.
And I felt like it was the rightthing and it was good, but I
wasn't monetarily seeing it likecome to fruition in the way that
I wanted to. So I got too scared and I
reverted back to going into corporate, went back into
corporate and then into consultancy for the next, maybe
(32:56):
we'll call it like a year and a half or so.
And then realized I need to workon my own vision and goals and
go back to own the interview andreally give it a true shot
versus yeah, it's like assuming because it didn't work in the
Fort, which yes, as we talk about it, it sounds so
ridiculous. It was like it was four months.
(33:16):
But at that time I just, I couldn't, no, I couldn't push
through everyday thinking, wow, is this going to work or not?
I love this. I love this.
This is like, it's so real life because all we see are the
Instagram accounts that are like, start a digital shop,
start a digital product store and you're going to make like,
see, I'm like making 20,000. Dollars a day.
(33:39):
I went and it's like, and then we go into that and we're like,
what the heck, Like this is likethis isn't happening.
I feel scarcity. I'm this isn't right in this
moment. Like whatever, you know, talk
about context and circumstances.You're like, hey, circumstances
or my mindset around this just aren't quite working.
I want to give corporate. More shot.
(33:59):
Yeah. And then you're like, OK, now I
want to go back and give only interview another shot.
Yes. And just like, talk about
choice, talk about like, yes, you're allowed to change your
mind and you're allowed to do itwithout having to apologize.
Yes, someone actually said to me, why do you keep doing this?
Oh, get out of here. Get out of here.
Few reasons but the main 1 is like I am just following my gut
(34:26):
and my intuition and like what Ineed in that moment.
I don't know like. They're probably like Sally, who
works at a bank. They work for the BDC.
They've got a very crunchy pension.
I know exactly who this person is that's saying this, you know,
and you don't have to confirm ordeny, but I, I know you, Sally.
Like, you know, Sally, but I think they they came from it.
(34:46):
Yeah, from a place of curiosity.But I definitely was like, oh,
you're you're giving me proof that people are questioning like
why she keep doing this. But it is, you know, this comes
back to choice. I can choose to like be like
that is proof and make it mean something and then not and then
what, pivot again and go back todoing something else or feel
(35:10):
like I have I'm stuck in this. Like I am not stuck in anything.
I like, love this. I want to be doing this.
And I'm so happy and I'm so happy that we're here.
I'm so happy we're here. OK, we are going to do 2 parts
of this because I, I want to treat this as its own episode
and let's get into interviewing.That way people can like toggle
(35:32):
back between the two and if theyjust need their interview hit
before then we'll do that. So, OK, if we wrap up this
segment of the interview, yes, Jana today as we reflect on
where you've come from in your in your career and own the
interview and everything like socool, so incredible.
What are you still trying to figure out today?
(35:53):
Thing that Oh yes wait, what do I want?
To what do you feel like today in this moment?
Yeah, thing. OK, so something that has been
on my mind as of late that I just posted about to was about
forgiving yourself faster. So I am incredibly hard on
myself and I see it kind of liketrickle into my like children as
(36:16):
well. Like I can see how I don't let
go of things and like put so much pressure on myself that I
can see my oldest doing that. And so that is like a huge wake
up call for me of like, holy smokes, because I don't feel
like I'm around her doing that. But clearly I am because I've
seen it her display the same kind of patterns as me.
(36:37):
So I will hold on to things likeif I do something that I'm like
embarrassed about or ashamed about or mad at myself, they
didn't show up in this in ABC why or didn't do the thing that
I said that I was going to do ontime or whatever it is.
I will hold on to it and just gointo this like I, I will make it
(37:00):
mean that like I'm not good enough.
I should be doing this like all of the things.
So I had heard this quote a yearago and it was forgive yourself
faster. It's like forgive and we don't
need to forget about it, but like move on more quickly.
And that is something that I am in constant practice that if I
like find myself in this spiral,I'm like, no, stop.
(37:23):
Like it's done. We don't need to keep going like
we, as in me, don't need. To keep and you don't have to
say like you don't have to have that situation where you didn't
do the thing on time based on your own timeline and say and
then make it mean something about you.
Like I am somebody who you neverfinishes things on time or
whatever. Is that part of it?
It's like there's like this forgiveness of like, no, I'm not
(37:45):
going to make it be my identity.Yes.
There's just something that. Happened like, so I'm really
quick example. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
I had been saying part of part of going out with on the
interview, like full on was I'm going to work from 10:00 AM to
3:00 PM. That is my, I mean like of
course work also spills over on other days and whatever, but
(38:07):
generally speaking, I'm going towork 2:50.
And this week I was like in a rabbit pool and was working till
6:00 or 6:30 and I had picked upmy daughter from school.
She was on the iPad that whole time, and after I was like, what
have I done? I totally went against something
(38:29):
I said I wasn't going to do. This is one of the big reasons
why I want to own my own business, is to be more like
with the girls, all these things.
Yeah. So I was like, Nope, You know
what, this was one day and I like went over to Miller at at
night time. I was like Mills, like I didn't
my intention wasn't to not spend3 1/2 extra hours on work.
(38:53):
And I really want to be in the practice of like stopping work
at 3. And so like I had a she didn't
care. She was like.
Whatever, I got angry. But I was like, no, I want to
say it out loud because I want her to know.
Like, I don't want you to be on the iPad for 3 1/2 hours.
Yeah, 3 1/2 hours this she was on it.
I've had straight forward while I was doing this.
(39:13):
So anyways, it's just about. And is there a reframe in there?
And I'm saying this because I literally just saw TikTok.
Yes, I love Tiktok. Whatever have the person who did
that. She did this thing where she was
basically like, you know, I'm 30years old.
I live at home with my parents. Like no, no, no, no, no.
And she was going on about like just her, her life contacts.
(39:34):
And then she said, but watch this, I'm 30 years old.
I get to spend this beautiful quality time with my parents,
right? And it was a total like change.
I wonder like in that were you also for yourself able to say
like, wow, I had a I was really excited about my work.
I got to spend three extra hoursand I got to tell Miller, but
like, hey, that's not really my intention.
I don't plan to do that all the time, but it just happened.
(39:56):
So that what were you able to reconcile that fee?
Yeah, sometimes, yeah. But I think that is such a good
reframe and like mindset to havearound.
Yeah, yeah. It's not always, not always easy
though. Yeah, OK, we're going to close
out this interview here and we're going to sneaky, sneaky.
Just keep recording because we're going to do Part 2.
(40:19):
So thank you for joining for Part 1.
Thank you for sharing your career story.
I absolutely love it. It's so inspiring.
And check out everybody who is listening or watching.
Check out Part 2 where we are going to go into brass tactics,
interview prep, career stuff, transactional, get the freaking
job that you want. And yes.
(40:40):
Have it. Thank you so much for listening
and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.
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Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!