What do art history, marketing and consulting have in common?! Creating your own work story as a parent with Sarah Chapman-Funston

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Welcome back to the All Figured Out podcast.
My name is Andrea Barr. Thanks for joining me again this
week. This week we have Sarah Chapman
Funston who is joining me on thepodcast.
Sarah has a really incredible story of going from being a
corporate employee like many of us have been or potentially are
to becoming a parent and really rethinking the way that she

(00:22):
works and how she wants to parent, how she wants to raise
her children and how she wants to work.
So Sarah actually left her corporate job and she straddles
being a parent and owning her own consulting business as a
marketer. She is the founder and principal
at C at SCF and like I said, she's a seasoned marketer and

(00:43):
she's really built her career inhelping brands from a strategic
content perspective, brand marketing and everything in
between. She works with a lot of small
businesses and she's a really great person to just, like I say
at the end of the episode, really meet you where you're at
in all stages of business. So she's just the perfect
person, like I said, for that business owner or the consultant

(01:04):
who's like, I don't need a full marketing team.
I don't need some like massive, massive thing, but I've got some
questions about like the order of operations.
She's really, really good at that.
So I hope you enjoy Sarah's story from going from corporate
to consulting. We talk a lot about just the
consulting world, what it takes to become a successful
consultant or just to just to get out there and to make that

(01:25):
decision. And we talk about who it's right
for, who it might not be, why it's good to stay in the
corporate world for some, and everything in between.
It's very casual chat and I hopeyou enjoy.
You're listening to the All Figured Out podcast.
I'm your host, Andrea Barr. I'm a career coach for parents,

(01:46):
mom of two, and a self-proclaimed expert at
winging it. After 10 years in the corporate
world, two major career pivots, and navigating life with kids,
I've learned one thing. No parent has it all figured
out, and that's OK. Here, we're all about growing
personally and professionally while keeping family time
sacred. You'll get practical tips,

(02:07):
career strategies and musings onlife, plus guest experts to help
us fill in the gaps. So grab a coffee or hide in your
car for some the time. We're about to figure out this
work, life and parenting stuff out together.
Sarah Chapman Funston, thanks for joining me on the L Figure
Out podcast. Hi, it is so good to have you

(02:30):
here. And I love sharing meat cute
stories. I like sharing how I meet a lot
of friends on the Internet. You're one of those stories.
Your DM so. You slid hard.
And you know what? I think I told you when we
connected on a Zoom call becausewe've never met in person, which
we will soon. Soon we're going to do some.

(02:51):
Sarah is going to help me with IRL podcast recording.
She'll be my producer for that. So that's gonna be amazing.
Anyways, Sarah, I told you that you had the best.
I don't want to say pitch. It wasn't.
You weren't pitching me per se. Like you have a service that I
could use. So sure.
Like it was, it is what it is. But like you were like, hey,

(03:13):
like it was so personal. It was so lovely and warm and
just normal. Like I kept so many annoying
emails or DMS and it's like copyand paste.
It's just like all the spam we get on text and you just had the
most lovely DM and I was. Like, I'm so glad.
Love to meet you. Let's hop on a Zoom call.
So well done. Well.

(03:33):
Done. Yeah.
Well, I think it's easier when you're you're someone who's like
like minded like you is in the same kind of space.
And also it's not a hard sell. It's like how can we help each
other? I think we might have similar
groups of clients, like how could this work as a
collaboration? For me that's a much easier DM

(03:54):
to send then the hard, you know,the cold reach outs because it's
mutually beneficial. So that's part of it.
But from a person who's not verysalesy being a consultant, it
takes practice doing that kind of thing so.
Well, you did such a good job and isn't that such a a good
reminder? And like in the nation, why you
should tell your story, why you should niche down and whatever

(04:17):
it is, like whether you work in corporate or for yourself, it's
so important that people like know what you stand for, know
what you do in like a particularway.
Because I think you probably reached out to me and you're
like, oh, you're also a mom. I'm a mom also our small
business owner. I'm a small business.
So it's like, instead of just being like, I'm a life coach for
everybody, you'd be like, I'm probably not going to reach out

(04:38):
to you because I don't know whatwe have in common. 100%.
Fine, so we are where there's lots we can chat about that we
will be chatting about today. I want to hear your career story
as I do with everybody, because I'm I'm nosy like that.
And we're going to be talking about your switch from corporate
to consulting. And it's something that I was

(04:59):
really excited to speak with youabout because I believe you've
done it quite successfully. And I want you to tell us the
good, the bad and the ugly. You also are A2 consultant
household, which is also interesting and that probably
comes with its huge of it and maybe challenges or you know,
risk. So I'm really excited to to chat
about all of that. For those who are listening, who

(05:20):
are dabbling and thinking about this, which is a lot of people I
work with are, you know, have entertained this idea.
So let's go back though. Let's go back to when you were
an art history nerd. Like what?
Take us all the way back and howthe heck did you end up to where
you are? Yeah, I think The funny thing

(05:40):
about me is I think a lot of people who are in my situation,
who start working in a certain field, but then, you know, you
maybe grow up with, you know, asmillennials, so parents are in a
different generation. Like, what do you mean you're
not doing what you studied at school, where that's not really
how the world works anymore. So that's definitely how my
story went and how a lot of my friends and colleagues how their

(06:02):
story went too. And yeah, I started, well, I'm
a, I'm a Vancouver, Richmond, Steveston, sort of born and bred
girl. And I grew up with a lot of
influence for my parents, especially for my mom, because
my parents did a ton of traveling before I was born.
We like to say BC before kids. My parents have a very

(06:26):
interesting story. I used to go up to kids in
elementary school and ask them, what did your parents do before
they had you? And they would look at me like,
I don't know, like, go to schoolwhere I grew up with a lot of
influences from my parents about, you know, the importance
of teaching yourself about different cultures and the spark
for travel. And I think that's where my love

(06:47):
of our history really came from because my parents spent some
time living in Saudi Arabia in the 80s, and then they purchased
a sailboat, and they sailed around North America for five
years before I was born. So I grew up hearing tons of
stories about what you can learnfrom other cultures.
And I think that that's where mylove really started.

(07:07):
I remember, I think probably grade six, the first time you
Start learning about ancient cultures.
And we were doing a, a session on Rome.
And I remember thinking to myself, I just want to go to the
Coliseum and I want to touch it.And I want to imagine all the
people that were there before me.
And looking back now, because I kind of didn't always know I was

(07:27):
interested in that. It makes perfect sense because I
just love things that are old and have seen a lot.
And so when I started my post secondary degree, I started at
Langara because I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do
and what I wanted to major in. And I started in English because
that's when you're not a math and science person, that's what

(07:48):
you do. And there was an opportunity for
me to do a a term abroad programthrough Langara.
And I really wanted to travel and I wanted to get some credits
while I did it. So I signed up and it was in our
history program. And it just sparked this huge
love in me for learning about history through art and through

(08:09):
architecture. And that's sort of when I was
there, I, I had this epiphany actually while I was standing in
front of the Birth of Venus in the, in the museum in Florence.
And I had this sort of moment like, Oh my gosh, this is what I
should be doing. Like, I love this so much.
And I love being immersed in history in this way.
And it was then when I decided, OK, I'm going to go home.

(08:30):
I'm going to apply the UPC and I'm going to change majors and
that's what I did when I came home.
So the following I was gone for about 5 months and the following
September I started at UBC and started in my art history
program and I loved every minuteof it and I knew that.
I think one thing that I, I really wish people would know
more or feel more empowered to know is that you don't have to

(08:55):
go to school and immediately work in that field.
That the skills you gain in postsecondary, if that's where you
choose to go, are skills you cantransfer anywhere, especially
like in an arts program. And I always kind of knew I
wasn't going to be like working in a museum or any of that.
I knew that it was always an option for me that I could go
back to school. I could get my masters and PhD

(09:16):
if I really wanted to. But I always kind of knew that
probably wasn't going to be my path.
But I wanted to go to school andget an education to prove that I
could work hard on my resume. And I loved learning about our
history. And so I figured I might as well
enjoy myself the most while I'm in school.
So that's kind of where I ended up.

(09:36):
And once I graduated from UPC, I, you know, started from the
bottom at a a media and film company and not really realizing
how those skills would follow me.
But I think now that we're such in such a visual space and in
marketing and and anything really, I think the skills that

(09:58):
I learned are not super direct, but they're there all the time.
And even just the appreciation for like where we've been and
where we're going. So yeah, it was, it was kind of
a into, it's not a very direct route to marketing like
considering how some people get there, but it's worked well for

(10:19):
me. If I was an interviewer and I
was asking, well, I am an interviewer.
But if I was a job interviewer and I was asking you like, and
if you were fresh out of school and you're wanting this
marketing job and the person asked you, well, what, what do
you see as the transfer transferable skills from being
in our history major to, you know, this marketing job, what

(10:39):
would you say? I'd say learning how to be
inquisitive and how to see things differently.
I think 1 misconception. A lot of people think that art
history is like, you know, you're just observing the lines
on the canvas when really it's ahistory degree and you're
learning about the history of cultures through the art,
especially ancient cultures whenthey don't have as much written

(10:59):
material. So it really teaches you to be
inquisitive and read between thelines.
And we're not given all the information.
And I think that especially in my now too, but in my corporate
life, that really helped becausesometimes you need to really
lean on your own instinct. You know, someone gives you a
task and they don't tell you howto do it, and you have to read

(11:21):
between the lines. And having that really driven
and inquisitive nature, I think really helped me with that.
So I think that's the biggest skill I think that I learned
and, and you know how to persevere when you're busy and
work hard when you don't have a lot of time.
And I worked, I worked in the corporate business, but it was,

(11:42):
it was a small team. There was a time where there was
only 10 of us. So a lot of us were many hats.
So you had to quick, you know, quick thinking and figure things
out on the go, which is sometimes how feels when you're
in university and you're, you know, managing different
assignments and tests and all ofit.
So yeah, I definitely, I don't always see it every day, but

(12:05):
when I take a step back and lookat things from a distance, I can
see the threads of all of that in any and everything that I do.
I think we should all do that somuch more.
I always try to get my clients to do that.
It's like the number one, I always say the number one thing
I hear, but like, I hear a lot of common themes and one of them
is, but how is this transferable?
You know, like I'm a, I always use the example of the woman who

(12:27):
was a developer that I worked with who then transitioned to
become a lawyer. And if at the very beginning she
was like, what are my transferable skills from here?
Like it, you know, it's really hard to see it at the beginning,
but it's true. When you take a step back or two
steps back or three steps back, there's so much easier to see
those through lines. And a lot of it is just your
ability to think, right. It's like the ability to always

(12:50):
talk about my little sister too.She's studied engineering and
she's now in fintech and doesn'treally do a lot with
engineering. But isn't that totally one of
those degrees that people get and they just learn a way of
solutioning and, and creating And like, it's like this mind
building exercise, just, I'm sure like art history, it's like
teaching you how to use a thought pattern or use a, a way

(13:13):
of thinking to find meaning and something or, or, you know, like
be creative in your problem solving or things like that.
So it's such a wonderful reminder for all of us.
A little bit of imposter syndrome.
I think people who say they don't are lying because we all
have it. And I think one thing that I've

(13:33):
learned, you know, just from being in different areas of
business is to really give yourself that credit.
Like it's almost like, you know,when you're taught, when it's
time for a review, where you should write a list of all the
things that you do that are under your job description, all
the ones that aren't. And really, even if it's just
for yourself, if you don't have the confidence to bring it to
your manager or whatever, to look at it and be like, wow, I

(13:54):
do all of these things confidently where we, we're so
hard on ourselves. I think especially like once we
become parents and we have, our mind is split in different ways
that we don't give ourselves credit.
And I am very guilty of it too, you know.
So I think that we all need to give ourselves a bit of a, a
break and realize like, yeah, like, you know, even like you,

(14:16):
like, you have so much experience in so many different
areas. And I'm sure you see the the
fruit from those laborers twofold every day, even though
you're not working in the same field, I'm sure.
It's so true. It's so true.
Oh my God. And it's like love the fact that
he said that everyone has imposter syndrome.
It's so true. Like I, I think about like the

(14:37):
podcast for instance, and I freaking love this medium and
platform and I will do this for free as long as I can.
And I want to grow it to be massive.
And there's times when I'm like,but who am I to do this and that
and that I was a theatre nerd myentire life.
So many, Oh my God, you know, I take it like a million public

(15:00):
speaking courses. Like I couldn't have done more
training in like the yeah, I don't know, the arts and like
performing and this and that andstill I'm like, but who am I?
Like who am I? You.
Know that's even how I felt coming on talk to you today.
I was like to me and then, you know, my friends or my husband
be like, you look like almost 12years, years of experience plus

(15:23):
even like since you graduated more than like you have
something to offer. I'm like, yeah, like you said,
you. And you know what, we're such a
story driven culture too. Like we all, we still learn best
through stories, right? And like I was speaking with
somebody was in recently and shewas talking about how often she
gets on a call with people who want to like get her services

(15:45):
for her public relations. And they'll sit there and look
at her and be like, I just, I need your help, Like help me,
you know, create a story becauseI don't really have one.
And she's like, by the end of the call, I've pulled out
incredible stories from this person, but you're just too
close to it. You just can't see it.
You know, it's like, and that's why I want this podcast to be
about too, by the way, it's not about, I don't really care if

(16:06):
you're the best marketer in the world.
You're an incredible marketer. But like, I want to know you.
I want to know your story. Like I want to know Sarah and I
want to know you're very unique story that nobody else has.
Because that's, that's what I think it's all about, because
everyone listening has their ownunique stories.
And people are going to pull, you know, different threads that
they're gonna, yeah, like, get wisdom from you from your

(16:27):
stories, not from you teaching them like XY.
And there's other podcasts for that that that ain't this.
I think I say that to my clientsall the time too, is like,
sometimes you just need someone who's not so close to it.
I always use the analogy. I use a lot of analogies with my
clients, as you know, but I lovethe idea that like almost like
when you're in university and you're working on a paper and

(16:50):
you've been staring at it for two weeks and there's blinding
grammatical errors that you can't see because you've been
staring at it this close. You need someone who has a
50,000 foot view to be like, oh,you want to grow in this way.
Why don't you try this and this and this in a different,
slightly different way than you have in trying it.
And, and I think it's kind of like, I'm sure you probably have

(17:10):
with your clients too. It's like almost like dating
like not you might not be the right fit for every person, but
the ones you are like yes, it works.
And that's the same for me with my clients.
Like some people, you know, maybe our vibes don't exactly
match or I don't have the exact services they want, but guess
what? Someone else I have the perfect
services for. And I've really learned I've

(17:32):
been trying to, I'm not perfect at it and I'm, I'm still trying
to figure it out. But we're, I've figured out at
least a little bit that, you know, the things that I used to
do in my corporate job that weren't my favorite.
Now I'm in power that I, I feel more empowered now than when
clients say, oh, well, can you do XYZ for me?

(17:52):
And I say, well, that's not whatI do.
But how about I can teach you how to do it in this way?
Because you're going to need to know how to be the leader of
your own business in this way anyway.
And sometimes they, you know, they still want to be able to
hand something fully off. But sometimes, most of the time
they're, they agree like, Oh yeah, like I should be the one
who's in charge of my own strategy instead of just handing

(18:13):
it off to someone junior that I hire.
And but I, I came from a place earlier in my career where since
we all wore so many hats, which I'm grateful for because I
learned a lot, but I, I have to say yes to everything.
And now it's still foreign to me6 1/2 years later that oh, I
don't have to say yes to everything.

(18:34):
If it you know, I can like I'm sure you tell your clients like
I can create the work that I love and say no competently to
things and not feel bad about it, not feel like I'm not people
pleasing, which I struggle with sometimes and all of the things
you know. Yeah, but you're also really
good at at saying no. There's a difference between

(18:55):
saying no, I don't do that work and Oh my goodness, I have.
I do a lot of intro calls with people that I want to hire to do
some work for me or whatever. And there's a lot of people I
don't end up working with because of just these little
tiny nuances. It's kind of like an interview
or if you're on like intro call with a service provider, it's
like the, well, no, like I don'tdo that.

(19:16):
I've actually never heard you say words like that.
What I hear you say is that's not my superpower.
That's not in my wheelhouse or that's not what I, you know, I
actually don't provide that particular service.
I've got three people that you should reach out like you're
such a connector though too, andhow people find the solution for
it. And there's such a difference in
that, right? Or even like when you're at work
and someone like, can you do this thing for me?
It's like, well, no, I'm at capacity.

(19:38):
I always come on at 1:01. It's like, this is what's on my
plate right now. Do you want to remove something
like you have to just be like crafty with your words in order
to create more levity, Make morepositive than just just the
number Sarah, tell us about. I want to hear more about the
transition from going from your work in creative, the creative

(20:01):
world, creative marketing. And having having Berbers making
a family and then deciding to goout and your consulting journey,
what was that whole arc like? Cause I know there's a lot of
people that would be keen and maybe are going through
something similar right now. Yeah, I think it, it wasn't a a
very like black and white decision.
I think it was like a slow burn for sure.

(20:25):
When I was by the time I was nearing my end of my last
corporate job, it was I had beenwith them for almost 8 years and
I had learned a lot and made to good connections and gained a
lot of great skills. And then near the end, when I
was around the time I was starting to think about, like,
you know, when do we want to have kids, I could feel myself

(20:46):
getting a little restless. Like, I think I've learned
everything I can learn here. What is the next step for me
going to look like? And of course, like it has to be
for us. I had to think about OK well I
want to keep my mat leave. How does that work?
It it was all kind of happening around the for about a year, I'd

(21:06):
say. I was kind of mulling over like,
should I look for a different job?
Should I wait? And then, you know, we were
trying to have a baby and I had a couple of miscarriages and
then I waited and we had to waita little bit longer.
And then I'm really grateful that it kind of worked out
timing wise. OK, that when I was pregnant
with my son was around the time I started getting like, really

(21:29):
itchy feeling like, and I think,like being pregnant, like, as,
you know, like brings up all these like, sort of big lofty
feelings about like, where's my life going?
What do I see for myself? Like these big conversations
with your partner, you know, financial conversations about,
you know, what is it going to look like when you're on that
leave and then after and so on. So by the time I was starting my

(21:52):
mat leave and sort of a little bit out of the newborn phase,
like, you know, when you're conscious again and I was
thinking to myself, OK, like I don't see myself going back to
my corporate job. I think that I feel like I've
I've grown out of that and goingback.
So it's a little bit funny to me, especially like, you know,
when you become a mom, you feel almost like a new person.

(22:13):
You've been, of course, sort of reborn yourself and I really
felt like I was ready to let that go.
And I, it worked out well for methat by the time I Matley was
Lee was over. The business was also changing.
So I I didn't feel guilty like, oh, I'm leaving them high and
dry. Like the nature of the business
was changing and I knew that they'd be OK without me.

(22:35):
And, you know, we parted ways great.
And, you know, have those contacts forever.
And I think once I've made that decision, when I was, I would
say I was probably like maybe 10months into my mat leave, I felt
really liberated, like, OK, likewhat do I what parts of my job
do I love? Like what could Ioffer people?

(22:55):
And at first it had a lot of imposter syndrome because I
really felt like I had never worked for myself before.
I'm like, who's who's going to think I'm great enough to like
ask me for advice and, you know,ask for help with their strategy
and this and that. And I, I didn't, the confidence
was not there in the beginning. I, if I'm honest and I think

(23:16):
that it's, you know, I'm, I'm grateful at the time, you know,
my husband is a consultant now, but now he's at the time he was
still working for a business andI'm grateful that we were able
to have me start slow to find the right kind of clients.
So we decided, you know, once myson was about a year old,

(23:37):
luckily with the help of grandma, we had some support
where I could spend some time, you know, really starting to
think about what did I see myself doing for work?
What kind of clients do they want to work with?
And I had made some good connections with some people in
our neighborhood that needed some small businesses that
needed help. And that's part of my old job

(23:58):
that I really love is really partnering with small
businesses, startups, helping guide them to feel empowered,
like how I like to say like to wear their marketing and
branding hat and how to do things in the right order.
And I'm really passionate about saving people time and money and
getting things done right the first time.
And I from working with those first few clients, like

(24:20):
immediately in the beginning, like between my kids, it was
pretty slow. And I had a, I had a handful of
like really great clients that Iworked with for a really long
time that kept me going. But my biggest struggle was
transitioning to being a consultant is that I am not a
sales person. I am not a salesperson and going

(24:43):
out there and like, you know, doing cold retails or like going
to events and meeting people washard for me because I'm super
outgoing. But when it comes to like, hey,
do you want to buy my services? Like felt really uncomfortable
to me. So that was my biggest place of
struggle in the beginning. How was that for you?
Did you feel the same? Yeah, yeah.

(25:06):
I was just going to say like, why?
Why do we why do we have that? Or is it that way?
Why do so many women say that? You know, get the point?
I don't think it's a bad thing because I don't want to.
I don't care what people say like, I don't care what people
are like. You need to like be pushier, put

(25:26):
yourself out there. Yes, there's always things on
the list that like could do moreof in this and that, but like, I
want to stay true to who I am. And I think it's just what I've
noticed. And I definitely felt that.
I think it was the what I thought the dictionary
definition of sales and businessdevelopment was.
And this is honestly something I'm still trying to figure out,
of course, but the dictionary definition to me was like not

(25:47):
going to work for me. I maybe did it for tried it for
a bit. You know, it was like the Oh my
God, I'm going to be, I have to admit, something like I
ambulance chased at one point onLinkedIn.
This is like horrifying. I knew that a company had done a
mass layoff. So I emailed a bunch of the
people who had changed their thing to open to work and was
just like, hey, I'm really sorrythat like, you know, the layoffs

(26:09):
have happened. Like if you need like a career,
it wasn't even that bad, but like.
No, I wouldn't think about that.But I don't.
I didn't feel like you. It didn't feel like me and it
was actually through like, I don't know, spiritual readings
or like reading books on like, you know, by like Jay Shetty are
like people who are like really interesting, kind of more
philosophical spiritual thinkersand just like, or understanding

(26:31):
like just energetics and really realizing like really who I am
as a person. And like, how do I in life, like
attract people and opportunitiesAnd like, what are the
situations in which things have just like somehow happened
really naturally? And that's what I started to
realize. It's like, what is that?
And for me it's, it's like gifting a session or like giving

(26:55):
a freebie and like really being of service 1st and like just in
it's very light touch. There's some people I know who
are so awesome that being like doing the big ask because I
think it comes really naturally and it's just their
personalities, just who they are.
And I think that that's perfect.I think it doesn't it?
There's no one right way. So the person who's like really

(27:15):
bold and out there and really quote UN quote salesy, as long
as it matches like their energy and like who they are, yeah, it
works sometimes, right? We've seen it.
That's such a good way to put itbecause I know people like that
too are like it's totally authentic to them and it fits.
It just fits. And I think that you're right,
like if I was to come hard like that, it just wouldn't fit with
who I am. And I think like I always

(27:38):
explain to people, you know, like me, who like their
businesses that like your brand is you and you are the brand.
You have to, you have to exude that across all platforms, you
know, an event on your website when you're talking to someone
like this, like otherwise they're going to see through it.
People are smart. And I think that I totally agree
with what you're saying because I have noticed that finding like

(28:01):
I love all my clients that I've worked with and I have found
them all through friends, through colleagues and then
referrals like which is the bestfeeling ever.
And it feels like such inorganicpartnership in that way, because
then you know that they trust you and you don't have to like

(28:21):
prove yourself as much in those first, you know, one or two
sessions that you know that they've come to you for a
reason. And you can sit in that
confidence a bit. And I, I wish I could go back
and watch myself in like early coaching calls and she would be
horrific. But because I think that I'm,
I'm really like have learned howto sit in that confidence a bit
more, not fully immediately, butit's because this is such a

(28:46):
different phase of life, especially, you know, being A2
consultant household, but it's, it feels different.
But I think that like, even withthe support of people like you,
like other people who are doing similar things, like feeling
that kinship of like, OK, there's other like young moms
with little kids who are trying to make this work and who really
want to help. Like the root of what I think

(29:08):
what each you and I are both doing is like, we want to help
our clients. And that's why I think I have no
problem with passing someone on or like referring them to my
colleagues and production or whatever because I know like I
just, I want them to win. And if it's not with me, that's
OK, because I know that if I support them in that, then
they'll say my name in a room somewhere else, hopefully. 100%

(29:33):
it's so true. And you're in like just chatting
with you in a business context. I find what comes really
naturally to you as well is not talking yourself.
What makes you so interesting islike you almost talk yourself
out of a job sometimes, which you kind of do.
That's what you say in like yourintro call too.
And we had an intro call. It was like, you were like,
yeah, I don't want you to be reliant on me for life.

(29:55):
I actually don't want necessarily want you to be like.
To work with me for five years. Yeah, which for me, which if
that's your style, that's also my style.
Like when I go to my an osteopath, for instance, I love
that that like modality, like body work is like you go for a
couple of sessions and then it'smaintenance after that versus
other body work practices where there's like this addiction or

(30:17):
like you must come biweekly or every single week.
And that is not my vibe. I do not ever want to be told
what I have to do. Sustainable like financially or
no time? No, no.
And so it's true. And like what you said about
just about like when you show upauthentically, then the right
people come to you as well. And it's like you by you going

(30:38):
through referrals or like peoplesaying your name, they're warm
leads coming to you. You show up more authentically
and it's just it just feels better and then like you do
better work. And so it is.
It's such an interesting, we're kind of jumping ahead into like
the meat and potatoes of like when you are a consultant or
working for yourself. But it's definitely, it's a big
piece of it and I think it's what holds a lot of people back.

(30:59):
Is that like how will I find clients?
And. It's scary, It's scary, it's
scary years into this business and still sometimes I'm like the
like cyclical nature of it, likesummers, nobody wants coaching.
Totally get that. You know, it's like it's a
funny, it's funny. How has it been to be in a, in

(31:23):
A2 consultant household where there is a little bit of, I
guess at what point did your husband step away from his
corporate job and like, how did you guys make all these
decisions that were, you know, how did you know it was right
for your family? Well, it's fairly new, which is.
So it's kind of interesting thatwe're talking about it now
because we're definitely still in the thick of it.
I'm sure I would have a different answer in five years

(31:44):
or whatever, but I'd say he transitioned to be fully a
consultant in November 2024. So it hasn't been that long.
And he has some like previous, like you know, his, some of his
clients are connections he had previously and what have you.

(32:04):
And he works on a you know, I work with startups and small
businesses. He works more with them, like
larger businesses who are going to market.
And yeah, it was, you know, fromwe've been together for 15 years
and that, you know, basically that whole time we both had full
time salary jobs. So it's, it felt scary at first.

(32:25):
I think especially like around Christmas time, you know, which
is like the most expensive time of year for a lot of us, just
feeling like, OK, like this is going to be so different.
Like even down to the small details as we get ready for tax
season now, it's like, OK, we the income tax has not come off
of our paychecks. Like just even in your mind,
just looking at your bank accounts thinking like, OK, you

(32:46):
know, every month that's siphon off this amount that's going to
be around the amount for income taxes is not our money.
Let's pretend it's not there. And just even that frame of
mind, like, it feels weird. It feels a little unsettling at
first, which I like to think of.It didn't then that would be bad
because we should feel unsettled.
But it. Yeah.
And just little things like, oh,we need to go purchase our own

(33:08):
medical coverage, you know, for the kids when they go to the
dentist. Like it, it feels strange
because it's so new to us. I'm sure we'll get used to it.
But it has changed, you know, how we've had to think about
money and time and you know, even like reevaluating like, OK,
how much is my time worth as a consultant And like standing

(33:30):
study in that and knowing like, you know, what's market value,
what's the value of you and etcetera.
And yeah, it's, I'd say as time goes on, it's feeling more
steady. And of course, like, you know,
it's not like we're worried about anything, but it's more
just like long term planning. You have to really readjust how
you think about things and yeah,how you think about the

(33:51):
logistics of it. And you know, I've never had to
like apply for a business license before, like all these
kind of things that are just new.
And thankfully my husband ran his own business many years ago
during university, so he's had some experience with it, but
things are so different now. So it's a huge learning curve.
But I think one thing that we'regood at is knowing our strengths
and our weaknesses and leaning on the experts when needed.

(34:13):
Like, OK, we're not going to tryto do our own taxes like we
usually do because we want to make sure that we learn how to
do it properly. Now that we're both
self-employed, what does that look like?
You know, what can we claim? Can I claim the square footage
of this room? I don't know.
Let's ask. And I think, yeah, being humble
in the fact that it's OK to ask questions.

(34:35):
Yeah, I think. And I think finding people who
also are doing it, like, I know I'll probably have more
questions for you in the future because I know you guys are the
same, Like, yeah, what is it? What are the tips and tricks
that you've learned from, you know, being in the same sort of
22 self-employed household and all of it because it's, it's
very new territory. And I think that it's OK for us

(34:56):
to feel a little bit like, oh, this is new, like whether the
checks and balances we're going to set up.
And I think we haven't figured that all out yet, but I'm hoping
that we can find more people to take advice from.
And I think we're doing a great job so far, but I think we'll
just, you know, have to have some more check-ins maybe about

(35:17):
what's working, what's not. Yeah, it's so it's a tricky,
we'll definitely have like big chats, but I mean, I think it's,
I think I'm I'm happy to like bea bit vulnerable here right now
and just sharing that like one thing that is actually coming up
right now for us. I just don't know why right now.
I think there's a couple big purchases that happened recently

(35:38):
maybe. And we're feeling, you know, you
feel it. But it's for me as someone who I
don't know, I like my default not best self trait is like
shame or like feeling feeling shame about something like
that's kind of my like, you know, some people go like, yeah.

(36:02):
So when say like I'm having a month or like my, my business is
quite cyclical or I'm putting a bit more energy into the
podcast, of which it's like still a free brand building
resource, you know, for my community.
And to say I'm putting more energy there in less time, like
1 to one coaching, then that's less revenue.

(36:22):
And if we're having like that type of month, it's like a
really weird discussion now where you don't have these
consistent paychecks coming in and saying like, I have to now
be accountable for what I make and what I bring to the table.
And then I have to like almost justify it.
And it's not like I can say like, oh, I'm in sales and, you

(36:44):
know, we had a bad quarter. And it's like, you know, and
sometimes it's like it's on you or it's not your fault or
whatever. Like there's nothing.
Sure, there's factors, but. Like it's me.
Yeah, yeah. And I feel shame about that a
lot. And like, yeah, God, the seasons
where it's like not working or, or something's not quite like,
you know, was like fruitful as Ithought it would be.

(37:04):
Or then I have an amazing month and I feel like it's a roller
coaster. And then I feel like I have to
come and like, explain myself. It's such.
A. It's such a weird 1, I don't
know if the answer. Is yes, I am exactly the same as
you. That's so funny because and it's
totally self-inflicted like it has.
It's not coming from anyone or anywhere.
Anywhere. Adults.
Yeah. This feeling of like, yeah,

(37:25):
like, and it goes, you're right.So up and down there's like,
like, say this week I have a whole bunch of coaching sessions
with clients feeling great. You know, it's a great month.
Yeah. And then sometimes it's more
quiet and you feel like, oh, am I doing something wrong?
When really you don't give yourself the credit, as much

(37:47):
credit during the good month, but you're extra hard on
yourself on the bad month, whichis not fair.
And it's always yeah, it's easy to, it's easy to to default and
like. What am I doing wrong when it's
not necessarily that you're doing anything wrong, but that's
just the nature of the business,like you said.

(38:07):
And yeah, like it's, it's, it's reassuring.
Not that I want you to feel thatway, but it's reassuring in a
way that, yeah, to hear that youstill have those feelings as
you're farther ahead than me in terms of how long you've been
doing, you know, working for yourself, that those feelings
are, are still normal and that it's OK to have those feelings.
And I think even like, yeah, like people who have been doing

(38:29):
it for 20 years, I'm sure they have those feeling too.
Like a lot of my clients also work for themselves, obviously.
And you know, they say the same things to me.
Yep. And it's so much easier to give
advice than to take your own advice.
So. But yeah, I feel, yeah, I feel
that way all the time. And I, yeah, I wonder if it's

(38:51):
going to go away or is that justlike part of being, you know,
the adult thing feeling, especially when you have two,
you know, little kids and. Yeah, I don't know if you felt
this way when I was in corporate.
I just fantasize. I always thought that the way
that I would solve all my quote UN quote problems or like gripes
with work or whatever it was I was feeling was like, oh, if

(39:12):
only I just worked for myself. It has always been something
I've wanted to do. I've always been passionate
about, you know, coaching and becoming a coach and all that.
Like this was always going to bemy path.
But I definitely put a lot of stock in the grass being a
little bit greener. And the grass is like, to be
clear, so much greener than I could have ever imagined.
I will say that however, not every you like, you're still

(39:34):
there. It's like, what's the what's
that like? Gosh, everywhere I go, I'm still
there. Whatever that thing is.
Oh my God, end of the day, you know what I'm saying?
Yeah, like I followed myself outof Aritzia.
I'm still here. And I always joke that I'm like
the worst boss I've ever had in my life.
So it was a probably meal along even though I left my love, my

(39:55):
former boss. But yeah, it's just it's funny.
It's the grass is greener. And like I bring this up because
I think for this audience of like those who might be
listening, who are like, yeah, I'm in the corporate job.
I'm miserable. That's why I often.
Really, really want to drill down with the clients.
Like what is really going on? Like I never take the thing at
face value. And with time and like questions

(40:18):
and reflection, you can really start to peel back the layers in
the onion and be like, what's really happening here?
Is it your schedule that's goingwonky?
Is that you don't have time to yourself?
Is it that the work volume is too high?
Like, you know, you're now on a four day work week, but you
still have the five days worth of work to do?
Like, yeah, there's so many factors, right?
And, and it's like a lot of times I do work with people and

(40:41):
I kind of coach my like, coach myself out of a job where like
they don't even need more of my time because they're like, Oh
yeah, I, it wasn't the job. I'm fine.
I'm actually good. There's just like a few other
things I need to tweak. And I have to remind myself that
too. You know, like when I'm in my
own business, like it's not always going to be sunshine and
rainbows. Like still have to do taxes,
still have to do these like kindof annoying things.

(41:01):
It's not time sheets, but the taxes and it's just, and then
you've got to like peel back. OK, So like, why is this thing
causing me frustration and like peel it back.
OK, what could we do to like fixthat or solve that?
Like what support can you get? Like, who could I trade
something with? You know, it's like there's just
there's ways to do it, but it's not the silver bullet.

(41:22):
And I think you and I were talking about, I've been talking
about this a lot of people recently about like, I should
just go work for myself. I should just consult.
I probably make more money. It's like you could.
Yeah. But yeah, it's, it's
challenging. Compared to like, it's kind of
like what I told my clients, like people think marketing is a
quick fix. It's not.
You have to put the work and youhave to do the testing.

(41:44):
And like I say, always say through the spaghetti at the
wall and see what sticks. Like if you want real success,
you got to take it slow. And it's the same, I feel like
with this industry, like I used to, I think to give myself like
grace. I used to always.
And I still say like, so my, my oldest son is, he just turned 6.
He's in kindergarten. My daughter is 3, so she's still

(42:05):
in preschool and just two days aweek.
And I, ever since I started consulting, I said, OK, I wanna
slowly build the right kind of clientele so that when I get to
the point where Sloan is also inschool and I have way more time,
that I can really go for it and be more full time.
Because at the moment I'm still part time, which was by choice
because I want to be the one who's, you know, picking up the

(42:28):
kids from school. And it's it's we're really lucky
that we're able to schedule our lives and our work that way.
I know that. And with the help of
grandparents and everything. But you know, having to decide,
OK, I'm going to work as a brandand marketing consultant and
coach part time and then slowly build up my clientele to the,

(42:49):
to, you know, finding the right clients to partner with and the
right referrals and everything. So when my youngest is in
kindergarten, I can go for it. But in a way, I think I'm also
like, that's a way for me to feel like, oh, I still have time
to figure it out. And then I just hope by the time
that I get there that I, you know, I feel like, yeah, like I
really got it. I, you know, and things are

(43:12):
definitely, especially in the last year, really like getting
busier. And I'm, you know, there's some
weeks where I'm working way morethan part time And, but I think
for a while, like talk about a posture syndrome for a while, I
think that's something I would tell myself to make me feel
better, that I wasn't necessarily like working full
time, even though it's true, butI felt guilty about it when I

(43:35):
shouldn't because that was a choice that we made as a family
to do it that way. It's kind of like when you're at
the park with your kids and you know, someone says like, oh,
like, what do you do for work? And you know, even if you were
working stay at home mom, that's100%.
That's great that you're doing that or you're a stay at home
parent. You're being the primary parent.

(43:57):
My instinct was always to say, oh, I'm a marketing consultant
first and then say part time after.
But why? Why can't it just say like, oh,
I'm really lucky that it gets beat my kids, you know, most of
the time. And then I'm also doing this.
Or if somebody OK, but to counteract that, like if someone
were to ask you what do you do for work, say that was the point

(44:19):
blank, blank question which anyone ever been asked that
before all the time. I mean, I love that you throw in
the fact that your mom and that you're part time work, but do
you even have to say that part time?
Like why do you feel like you have to say the part time?
Yeah, I guess because I, I thinkprobably because we all have

(44:40):
that bit of like imposter syndrome, like kind of
confidence piece where I'm like,yeah, I'm, I'm still hard on
myself sometimes like, Oh, well,I maybe I should be working full
time and maybe I should this andshould that and where even like
my mom is great or reminding me and she's like, well, yeah, but
Sarah then where would the kids be?
Like, I can't be here every day.And then you'd be paying for

(45:01):
full time childcare, which some people have to do, which is, you
know, totally understandable. But we are we're lucky that
we're able to do it this way. And I'm like, yeah, like that's
true. And then and then you have to do
the math. Like how much full time clients
would I have to have to counteract the price of the
daycare? Like it's such a juggling act.

(45:22):
And I think that that the confidence piece is a big part
of it is like, yeah, why do I have to?
Why do I have to say that I don't?
No. Or how many extra clients would
your husband have to have in order to balance out the
childcare cost? Because it's not just your
paycheck. Right.
Yes, Yeah, exactly, exactly. So yeah, I think it's it's
definitely tricky, especially for those of us who are, you

(45:44):
know, a little more in this phase of life, the primary
parent. And of course it flip flops in
all phases of life. But yeah, it's it's a juggle.
And I think, I think the way that it's going for me, I think
by the time both of our kids arein full time school that, you
know, I will have a really greatbase of clients that I really
love that equals the full time work.

(46:05):
And, you know, since there's sometimes right now where that's
how it feels, but then, you know, like you're saying the
grass is always greener. Sometimes I even think to myself
like, oh, remember, you know, when I didn't have to think
about the income tax coming out of the bank account because it
was already taken offer. Like we always wish for what

(46:26):
could be or what was or what's going to be or like, it's almost
like, I don't know if you ever have this feeling of being a
parent, like being nostalgic forlike the moment that's
happening, like right now. Yes, yes, like.
Like my brother just had a baby and like, I like Oh my God, like
our kids are so big. And like, even now I'm like, Oh
my God. But one day I'm going to be
looking back and thinking they're small now.
Like the moments are so fleetingand I think it's easy to forget.

(46:50):
Like you can feel that way aboutwork too.
However, you, how have you navigated the, um, how do I say
this? Like the, you know, you're
ambitious side and the part of you that's like wanted to keep
going up and up and like you started, I know, I think you

(47:10):
started in reception at your corporation and you just like
grew from there and you've gained incredible skills and
experience and you're so good atwhat you do.
But how have you? Do you feel as though I think I
can ask you this, Like, do you feel as though you've taken a
step back, a step sideways, a step up?
Like how does it feel for you? I think when I was back in my

(47:32):
corporate job, yeah, like I was,it was great.
I was able to like, you know, create some kind of new rules
for myself within the business because we were small.
And I think that's a funny question.
I have never thought about it that way after I switched to
consulting. I think it felt a little bit
like lateral in the beginning, just in terms of like we're like

(47:55):
if you're just looking at the work stuff.
But if I really pull myself back, like you said, I would say
it's a step up because of the life that I'm able to create
around it now. And I'm, you know, grateful that
I can schedule my own meetings and not be told where I need to
be from 9:00 to 5:00, that I cannot schedule meetings when it's

(48:16):
pick up time from school. And I can, you know, do a call
on the weekend if I choose to and not being forced to.
And I think stepping up in that way in terms of like feeling
more well-rounded, Like I, I always think to myself on days
where I'm busy with meetings andthen I'm able to stop and go
pick up my son from school or, you know, do what I need to do,

(48:38):
you know, get a workout in. And like, I feel really
fulfilled because I feel like I'm feeling multiple buckets
that make me feel like me. Not that I love being on mat
leave and stuff, but you know, there's always like a different
side of you. Like I always say it's even
like, like the kind of like whenI haven't been to Europe in a
while and I feel like my like art historian buckets like
getting really low and I'm like,I need to go to Europe.

(49:00):
I'm just like it just for it. So I kind of feel like overall
like it's been a step up for that reason because like I
don't, yes, like you said, there's parts of work that's
needed to not fund the administrative part or whatever.
But when I'm sitting talking with clients and I get so
excited and passionate with them, like it doesn't feel like

(49:20):
work to me. And I not that I didn't enjoy my
job before, but I enjoy it so much more now because I feel
like I'm really helping people and I'm connecting with great
people who are doing great things.
And if I get to be a little partof their story, then that's
awesome. And you know, I even clients
that I have worked with for a year and I'm seeing them succeed

(49:41):
online and I'm like, yay, like good job.
So I think that the step up necessarily doesn't come from
like, oh, I'm like making a crazy amount more this or that.
It's just comes from like feeling a little more fulfilled,
I think, and learning how to value that, like equally as
money. It's almost like time.

(50:04):
Like we lived in Vancouver, now we live in South Surrey.
And there was a time where we were trying to figure out like
when we thought we'd be commuting before the pandemic,
when we started consulting and we all, we made a spreadsheet
where we value time as if it wasmoney.
So like the time, the time it would take for like, say, the
time when I was on Motley for myhusband to drive all the way

(50:27):
into Vancouver and all the way back and maybe not see the kids
before bed or whatever. When I was, you know, not
working at the time and dallyingit as if it was money to help
make that choice. And it really changed how we
looked at things, which was all him.
That was his. He loves spreadsheets.
So yeah, like thinking about andof course the cost of, you know,

(50:51):
gas and everything, but really looking at it that way changed I
think, how we saw it. And I think that the way I used
to view myself, I don't know if you're the same, but like, oh,
like I need to have this title or work with this big name to
feel like like I'm a big shot inmy jaw when that's kind of what
the outside was telling me I should feel Where no, I feel I

(51:15):
can feel just as confident working with small businesses as
I could for a big brand. It's so true.
Wow what an unlock that spreadsheet.
Can he share that as a freebie for the guests?
I think that's so cool. I think because if you were to
ask yourself in that moment too,and you're doing bedtime after
being with your kids all day alone, and then you're doing

(51:37):
bedtime thinking about doing bedtime on your own, yeah, you
probably, you're asking yourselflike, what would you be willing
to give up in that moment to have him there?
Only a lot, right. Like financially, like you
probably like not like $100 a bedtime at least or something
like that. And that's, that's massive.
Massive. That's such a good way to put

(51:59):
it. Yeah.
Like, after being like, solo parenting all day, and then, you
know, yeah, your partner's not gonna be home until late.
That's a perfect like little snapshot way to put it.
Yeah, and I think about that too.
It's like what, you know, there's the there's so many
reasons why a person might choose to leave a corporate job,
go into insulting and it's risky.

(52:20):
A lot of small businesses don't succeed.
Like, you know, there's things that we do have to talk about.
We can't just be like, everyone should be their own business
owner. I don't think everybody should.
I think that for a lot of people, the stability and the
comfort of getting that consistent paycheck does wonders
for their mental health and for their family.
And it's great And what those people, what I in case you're
listening to and you're like, look great, like what is this

(52:40):
conversation all about? But like there's other way other
levers that you can pull out. It's like really good
conversations with your managers.
Is it finding a company that's more aligned with your values
and what your family needs? Like there's ways to make the
corporate world work. And I want to continue to say
that because I think there's twonow I'm going on a freaking
tangent, but like too many people out there online,

(53:01):
especially you and I are in the,we are entrepreneurs.
So we get a lot of B to B marketing.
But man, the messaging out thereright now that's trying to get
convinced everybody to just quittheir jobs and work from
themselves is, is scary. And I think it's really doing a
disservice to people. I think what it's doing is well,
is it's making people who are ina job in the corporate world

(53:22):
that they actually might enjoy and be fine.
There is like this like Instagram filter reality that's
being put online and hey, I'm guilty.
Yes, you're so right. Yeah.
That's like making people be like, fuck, but I could have a
better life. Like, yeah, if I quit my job,
maybe I'm not happy. Like, is that the life?
And I kind of caught myself doing that the other day being
like, look at the freedom and, and, and it wasn't, that wasn't

(53:45):
supposed to be the thesis. And I've kind of caught myself
to be like, no, no, my message is more about like, you need to,
you need to really think about the life that you want to build
and figure out a way to like make maneuvers and small actions
to get there. My message is not everybody
should quit and become a coach. Everybody should quit and sell
things on Etsy because look at this person on TikTok who's

(54:07):
making $20,000 a month like. Because it's not realistic.
But hey, it might be if you got the passion for it.
Oh my God, what would you say, Sarah?
Like who would you say is the perfect person in your opinion?
Now that you've been in it for adecent amount of time but you're
still fresh ish, Who would like which of your profile of your
friends would you say is most suited to do this work?

(54:30):
I think the first step is like assessing your life.
And I think it's funny that you say all of that because you're
so right. And even like I think about even
the way like people, you know, Ihear my husband working with
companies, like the way companies have to like date
their potential employers. Like, oh, you can work from
home. You can this, you can that.

(54:51):
Because there's so many different things that people
depending on the industry, like say you're a web developer where
you have more jobs at your disposal.
But for me, and I think for someone who's thinking about it,
you really need to take a step back and look at your life.
Like I'm going to be 100% honest, if I was single right
now and I didn't have the support of my partner, knowing

(55:12):
that like, you know, financiallythat we're in it together, I
don't think I'd be working for myself.
Like that might sound a certain way, but I don't yet.
I don't. I think that if if that was the
phase of life I was in, it wouldfeel too risky for me and I
wouldn't. Agree.
I agree. But I think assessing your life
and looking at, you know, the way that it's set up in that

(55:36):
point that maybe you decide, OK,like right now I'm saving to buy
a house. I, you know, this or that.
I like having my healthcare included in my salary.
You need to look at all those checks and balances and figure
out like, yeah, what are the pros?
What are the cons? And if maybe is it the right
phase for you to work yourself? And maybe that phase will come

(55:59):
later. Like for me, with the support of
my partner and the fact that we're in it together and we're,
you know, it's not all on me to make sure that the lights stay
on. That is a huge point of
relaxation because I know that we can work at it together and
we can make a plan together. And if it's not working, you
know, we figure it out like kindof.

(56:20):
And like I always say to myself,like when I'm feeling like
nervous, when it's a quiet monthor something, you know, I remind
myself, OK, I have all of these skills.
If I wanted to go online and start applying to full time
jobs, I can would I be able to get one?
Yeah, I think so. And that option, just because
I've chosen in this phase of my life to be a consultant doesn't
mean I'm always going to be consultant like we all are.

(56:41):
Careers are all changing all thetime in this day and age.
So I think that's the most important thing is figuring out
at this phase of your life, is it going to work for you?
And if you thought, like you said, that deep desire you have
to work for yourself, maybe you decide that once these certain
checks and balances come into play, then you can go for it.
Where for me, yeah, if it was just me, I, I think I'd be too

(57:05):
scared if I'm honest, to do it on my own.
And not everyone has that, you know, luxury.
Like if you're single and you don't have that support, then
that that might be harder. But there's ways you can figure
out doing it on the side to start and testing it out to see
if you actually like it. You know, just testing the
waters to figure out if that's something that you can imagine

(57:28):
yourself doing, even making likemaking a mock spreadsheet of
your monthly expenses and figuring out what is the amount
you need to make to make that happen on your own.
Can I do that? Can I not?
Or should I start slow? And then like you said, it might
make you realize, no, you know what?
I'm actually OK where I am rightnow or I just need to talk to my

(57:49):
manager about hiring support because there's too much on my
plate or whatever. Yeah.
But yeah, I think it's, it's nota simple answer.
I think some people think, like you said, the grass is always
greener. And I, it's so funny because I
was never the person who was like, I always want to work for
myself. There was times in my life where
I was like, Oh my God, I could never, never, ever would I want

(58:10):
to do that. No.
Way. And here I am.
But I think I also saw it as, like, you know, I'm not managing
A-Team. Like it's just me.
Like I am a very, very big empath.
And I think the pressure of likeother people's livelihood on my
shoulders would be too much. So the way I'm doing it works

(58:30):
because that's not a factor. There's still my own family.
But yeah, it's just so funny because if you had asked me like
10 years ago, like, oh, Sir, didyou ever work for yourself, I'd
say no, you're kidding. No way so.
So say, Sarah, say somebody justlike, you know, is like, yes,
yes, yes, I can do it. I can swing it.

(58:51):
It would work for my family. I've been thinking about it.
I'm sitting on the on the fence,but now this is pushing me over
and I'm like, yeah, I want to doit.
How have you navigated? And this will be my last
question before I let you off the hook, but how have you
navigated or did you navigate going out and wanting to do the
work that you wanted to do, but marrying that with the market
need, like what people actually need and desire and will pay

(59:11):
money for? And that's something that I
found really organically, which was great.
And I, I had, I fenced it when Iworked even in my corporate job
because I got some of our clients who are like startups
and small businesses. And I really, I found that I
enjoyed working with them and then the education side of my
job. But I also started back then
started noticing the need. And I think that's one thing

(59:33):
that we always see in marketing too, is like you can't tell
someone what you need. You have to go and find them and
ask them what they need. You know, in per se, like go, go
do your research. And also don't try to sell it to
them. Don't try to make them come to
you. Go to them.
And I think that a lot of peopleforget, like, yeah, like

(59:55):
sometimes people think, Oh, well, this pen that I made is
the best pen in the whole world,so of course everyone's gonna
want to buy it. But it's like.
But do they need pens? And like, Are you sure it's the
best pen in the world? And I think, you know, depending
on on the business, but I think really starting by just asking a
lot of questions and like something that my mom has spent

(01:00:17):
some time doing like pro bono career coaching growing up.
So I, I watched her do this a lot, but really like the power
of like an informational interview and talking to people
even just to figure out like if they, what kind of service they
would need or what their experience is in a certain
industry. Like, you know, for example,

(01:00:39):
like one of my clients project, they opened a playspace in
Langley and it's awesome becauseit's very, it's very cool and
calm. It's not too big, it's not too
loud like like some places, which just some people love,
which is great. But they were trying to cater to
people who wanted a slightly more chill vibe.
And they realize that there's nothing like that around.

(01:01:00):
And it was, you know, there weretwo moms starting their
business. And it was scary for them.
But they really searched for theneed, which took time to figure
out. And I think one thing that
people forget is like they wannago go, go, go, go and start.
And that's also like sometimes where even with my clients, I
find them like they realize likea year and like, oh, the name of

(01:01:21):
my business doesn't work. The logo doesn't work, the
mission doesn't work. Or sometimes it's good to like
take a beat and just take a justeven asking your circle of
friends or circles or family, like do you know anyone who does
this or that? Can you connect me to them?
I'd love to talk to them. Or even if it's in a corporate
job, like, oh, I, you know, I work in just because this is the

(01:01:42):
field. I know I'll say marketing for
moms. Yeah, mom businesses, mom
business. That's, you know, B to B.
But I really want to be marketing in real estate.
But how do I get there? Start asking like ask a friend
of a friend. Oh, I I know someone who their
sister is the CEO of on your whoyou know, whatever.

(01:02:03):
And I think that we all, like I always tell my clients, like
even when it comes to PR and like getting going, like you
need to start with your own circle because they're going to
be a real champions. And just like I do, I do for and
I'm sure you do too. When someone says like, oh, I
really wish I could talk to someone in blank.
Like if you ask people they wantto help and they're like Oh yeah
I know like 5 people, let me send you some emails and I'm

(01:02:25):
going to connect them. People love to give advice.
They love to recommend. Exactly, and I think.
They know they're psycho. Yeah, they're gatekeeping.
Yeah. So I think like the power of an
informational interview, even like it might even teach you
like, OK, I think I really want to start my own business doing
blank. Maybe you talked to someone and
they actually say, oh, I actually know someone who's

(01:02:45):
looking to hire a full time position in this field.
You might realize like like you said, Oh well, maybe I don't
want to work myself. Maybe I need to work for
different business who needs my help in a different way.
Or someone might say oh I know someone who could really use
some help with blank. Maybe you can help them out for
free for a little while and see if you like it.

(01:03:05):
So if that's something that interests you and then, you
know, that's your first sort of testimonial.
Like I think it's tempting sometimes, especially like if
you're really burnt out to like cut and run.
Hmm. I'm very much a believer of like
let's, you know, test the waters.
Like see try things on the. Side such a cotton right?

(01:03:28):
Again, it depends on what phase of life you're in.
If you're single and you've worked at crazy corporate job
for 10 years and you built up a huge savings and you're done and
you have that nest egg, then do it.
Take some time off or reevaluatehow you're feeling about your
life and figure out what's best for you.
But I think like even sometimes I wonder, like, oh, if I ever

(01:03:49):
didn't work in marketing, like, what would I do?
And I think to myself like, oh, like I have a lot of other
transferable skills. If I decided I wanted to go back
to school for you and become a teacher, I could do that.
Sounds lofty to go back to school this phase of my life,
but like, it's never too late. Especially like, you know, if
you want to be more fulfilled and happier and less stressed.

(01:04:11):
So I think my biggest piece of advice would be to just like
start talking to people and like, have it not just live
here. Have it live out here in your
world and let everyone else in your world know this something
you're thinking about so they can have you in mind.
And it can kind of like, it can maybe start organically.
Like I that's how it was for me.I kind of said like, oh, I
really want to start consulting in this way and I'm not sure how

(01:04:33):
it's going to work. And a friend of mine said, oh, I
have a, a friend who's starting a business who really needs
help. Can I connect to you?
And I'm like, yeah, and I didn'teven have a list of services or
anything. I didn't have a website.
I was just figuring it out. Yeah, people don't care if you
have the website like sometimes people have like that failure to
launch to right or they feel like there's like 10-12 fourteen

(01:04:54):
steps that have to happen first.Like if you're the brand, like
you said, and if unless you havelike a product based business or
something like that, like then just start and and you can be
honest too. You can say, hey, like just
starting out would love and likegive let me show you what I can
do. Let me like give you an hour of
my time. Yeah, and, and let's go from
there. Like I'm such a believer in
that. Not like working for free, but

(01:05:15):
like showing people what you cando working with somebody and not
being like, I'm in a creative proposal and I'm going to be
very firm. Like when you're starting out,
you have to be flexible. You have to just like try things
and and see what the market, what the market is, is asking
for and. That's what I've learned too,
that I didn't start out just by coaching.
I started out doing a lot of more like full strategy work,

(01:05:37):
like delivering huge documents. And I realized that's not really
what people needed help with. What they said they valued more
was the kind of hand holding andthe teaching and the sitting
together on calls, making plans,sharing spreadsheets.
And you know, they prefer like Irealized that that's they
preferred and I kind of like found myself in this little

(01:05:59):
niche by accident. So like you said, sometimes it's
not like deciding like what you want to do and being too hard on
that and not being flexible because your clients or your
customers might be telling you they want something else and
you're not listening and then you missed out on a big
opportunity. It's so true.
I would say, like, if I'm to answer the question I asked you
about, like, who would it be that you would say this is

(01:06:21):
suited for? You have to be, you have to have
a growth mindset and you have tohave a flexible mindset.
Yeah, unless you are in a extremely rigid field.
But 90% of the people who might be considering this are not in
some like highly regulated, likedrug manufacturing or what, You
know, it's like, yeah, got to beflexible.

(01:06:43):
You've you've got to, yeah, you have to.
And you have to be willing to grow and to learn and to try
things and be OK. I loved your advice about just
starting to talk about it though, and a lot of people will
say to me yet, but I don't, you know, I've tried something
before and then I've gone back and I've tried something else
and now I'm very embarrassed because I've tried a couple
different things. I don't want to be known as the
person who's flaky or who doesn't follow through on
something. And I totally get that.

(01:07:05):
I have so much empathy for that.I've been in that position too.
You did my yoga teacher trainingat one point.
Like didn't do anything with that, but it but now it actually
does work. Like it actually does make sense
later on in my story. But I wish to say to those
people like, OK, for this next thing, do you have to say this
is my five year plan? Or can you say, like you said, I
liked your language. You were like, this is what I'm
thinking of doing. I'm exploring this and like, can

(01:07:28):
you use language like that to belike, come along the journey
with me on the journey to figureout if this is what I want to
do. Who can you put me in touch
with? Like, instead of being like, I'm
launching this business, this isthe five year financial scan.
Like, remember, it doesn't have to be that way.
And there's less risk in that you can change your mind. 100%,
I think, yeah, nothing is set instone and your life might change

(01:07:48):
too or your priorities change. Like especially becoming a
parent, I'm sure that's like that's like the whole basis of
your business is like your priority has changed.
How can we make your life work around that?
That's so true. Oh my gosh, I could talk to you
forever. I love like that.
And it's fun that we got to record this one because this is
very much what it is. Yeah.
You know, like pretty much what we talked about the first time

(01:08:09):
that we started chatting. Yeah.
Oh my God, Sarah, we've talked about a lot of the things you've
been so open and honest about your journey, but what's you
know today, what's striking you is something that you're still
trying to figure out. What am I not trying to figure
out? I think for me, I'm still trying
to figure out what the best balance in terms of work and

(01:08:33):
parenting is right now to make, you know, our family work as a
unit. And I think I'm still trying to
figure out, yeah, like, how do my kids need to be parented?
How do I work, you know, personal life and my own work
and all of that into it, I think.
And because it changes every day, and I think I'm OK with not

(01:08:56):
having it figured out because it's mostly working right now.
And, you know, we're happy and, you know, we're healthy.
And I think giving it perspective, you know, but we're
lucky to be where we are. And, you know, things might not
be figured out tomorrow and theymight be figured out the day
after that. And trying to, you know, for

(01:09:16):
someone who's a kind of a type Acontrol freak, trying to be OK
with ebbs and flows takes practice.
But yeah, I think and if, if, ifwe're talking about like the
consulting thing, like if you were to say, oh, well, of course
notice you're going to be consulting for the rest of your
life, then I don't know, I don'thave that figured out.
Like it's working for right now,but I could decide tomorrow that

(01:09:39):
it's not. And that's OK with me.
I hope to, you know, I like whatI'm doing right now.
But yeah, I think that I very much don't have it figured out
when it comes to the consulting fully, but I feel like the parts
I do need to have figured out, Ihave and I'll cross those other
bridges when I come to them hopefully.

(01:10:00):
I love it. So Sarah is a marketer.
If you haven't gotten that from this conversation, then that's
OK. You're probably multitasking.
But Sarah is a wonderful marketer.
She works with small businesses and she's such a great person to
just go to. I'm pitching you on your behalf.
By the way, thank. You.
I want to. I want to.
I want to share my love for you.She's so good at just like

(01:10:21):
meeting you where you're at. Like you can come to her and you
can, she has such a flexible wayof working with her clients too.
She's not putting you on this like $50,000 retainer.
Like it's very like meeting you where you're at in your
business. If you've got like questions for
her, you're like, OK, today I just want to jam on this topic.
Like she will meet you there. And so highly recommend.
Sarah. We've worked a little bit

(01:10:41):
together. I foresee is continuing to work
together. Yeah.
And so reach out to her if you have questions.
She'll do a an intercall. I'm yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah, they can find me online. My website issfmarketing.ca and
Instagram, the same SF marketing.

(01:11:03):
Yeah, you can find me either way.
Send me a message if you need some help or some guidance or
someone to. Talk to you about.
Your about your business, but yeah, I think yeah, I'm excited
that we got a chance to chat andthat I'm really excited for all
the stuff we have coming up for you too.
Me too. Thank you.

(01:11:24):
It's so funny how you're such a confident mom and then the
second I made you like try to pitch yourself.
I need so you get a little a little try, but no well done.
I'll put all the Donuts. I'm sure you fell in love with
her at this point and with the beauty of Zoom, you can reach
out to her from wherever we see you Ireland listening.

(01:11:44):
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast and we will talk to
you very soon. Thank.
You so much. Thank you so much for listening
and since you made it this far, please share this episode with a
fellow parent who you love, respect, and want to support.
And while you're at it, hit me up on Instagram at All Figured
Out. Andrea, I would love to meet you

(01:12:05):
and hear what you are trying to figure out these days.

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