Sam's Side of the Story: Growing Up With The Paranormal

Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_01 (00:00):
Hello and welcome back to All Is Not Lost Podcast.
I'm your host, psychic medium,Rhiann Maldonado.
Today, I'm really excited tohave my son, Sam, in the podcast
studio with me, and I hope youenjoy this episode.

SPEAKER_00 (00:17):
Spirit, does it stay?
Does it go?

SPEAKER_01 (00:21):
The fact is, spirit does survive death.
Our loved ones are all aroundus.
Love survives.
Spirit survives.
All is not lost.

SPEAKER_00 (00:35):
Welcome to the All is Not Lost podcast.
Here's your host, psychic andevidential medium, Rhian
Maldonado.

SPEAKER_01 (00:47):
Sam, I know that you and I could talk for hours.
Yeah.

(01:19):
I couldn't help but feelinspired by the mannequin
incident the other day.
So for any listeners who haven'theard about what happened with
the mannequin in our living roomjust last week, it might be
helpful to go back and justlisten to that quick video.
I think it's only nine minutes.
But that made me think howinteresting it would be for you

(01:44):
and I to sit down and just kindof rehash over the years, all
the interesting things we'veexperienced that led up to even
our haunted house in Spokane andanything else where the wind
blows us.
But I have never sat down withyou like this and I've really
wanted to for so long.
So I'm so grateful that we havethe opportunity to do that

(02:06):
today.
So yeah, what do you think?

SPEAKER_03 (02:08):
Yeah, I think so.
I mean, You referenced theincident recently with the
mannequin, and it got me kind ofthinking that we all come to
different conclusions about, Idon't know, how spirits work or
what all these things are.
And I think everybody kind ofhas their own perspective.
But I really think it's kind ofthis timeline of events that

(02:29):
we've gone through that'sinfluenced my perception of it
and your perception of it.
And it's just been somethingunique to us.
And each one has kind ofshifted, I think, how I feel.
Oh my gosh, yes.
Over 28 years of thingshappening.
And because of that, I thinkit's important to kind of look

(02:50):
at each individual thing withinthe context of the whole.

SPEAKER_01 (02:54):
I agree because what I was thinking as you were
speaking was the evolution ofhow even I have felt and
experienced spirit contact orthings moving in the house has
completely evolved over time towhere there were times I was
scared, there were times Iwasn't.
And the reason that's importantto note also is one of my

(03:18):
followers on Facebook commentedabout the mannequin not being
particularly spooky, that maybeit was just a hello from spirit.
And I haven't had a chance torespond to her, but what I was
thinking with that is I probablyseem to other people less scared
than like people on TV would be.
I am not scared.
Was it spooky?

(03:39):
The word I used?
Yeah, it was spooky because it'sa human head shape.

SPEAKER_03 (03:43):
It's very different

SPEAKER_01 (03:44):
looking at you.
It's very different than lightsgoing on and off, which I have
experienced plenty of times andwe can get into that.
But have that happened to me 15years ago?
I might've been terrified andburned down the house.
So yes, the evolution is fun.
So I, I talk a lot.

(04:06):
I'd like to let you decide,where do you want to start this
process?
Because you were a kid.
I mean, here you are turning 28.
Yeah.
But like I said, you've livedwith me, your mom for all these
years, and we've been through alot of things and lived in a lot
of houses.
And I would like to know yourperspective on some of this
crazy stuff.

SPEAKER_03 (04:23):
So I think I definitely like to start with
our Temecula house.

SPEAKER_01 (04:27):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (04:27):
But, I'll say, and I think there's some other little
things that have happened to usin our lives as children that we
could discuss later if they comeup.
Sure.
I think that's a main one.
I also want to say, I'm like, Ifeel like I've always been the
person to be interested in thesethings though.

SPEAKER_01 (04:41):
You were from a small kid.

SPEAKER_03 (04:43):
From the time I was little, I, I was just always
fascinated.
I wanted, I remember you boughtme that Barnes& Noble book that
was about a paranormalinvestigating team in England.

SPEAKER_02 (04:55):
Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (04:56):
And I got that when I was really little and I read
it cover to cover like a hundred

SPEAKER_01 (05:00):
times.
And I think on your bookshelfyou still have it.
Yeah, I

SPEAKER_03 (05:02):
could show a picture.

SPEAKER_01 (05:03):
And you were an X-Files aficionado from a young

SPEAKER_03 (05:08):
age.
I watched like the UFO shows andall of those things.
And I think it is kind of likethe X-Files that I wanted to
believe.

SPEAKER_01 (05:20):
Yeah, oh yeah.

UNKNOWN (05:21):
I think I was just very interested and I found all these
things fascinating.

SPEAKER_03 (05:25):
And I think as we get into it later, this kind of
idea that I think some of thesethings can be portrayed as just
really scary, and they can't be.
But I think ultimately, even ifit's scary, I've always wanted
to know.
And that's something I feel likeI can't turn off.
And it's just a perspective, youknow?

SPEAKER_01 (05:43):
That's interesting to hear that perspective too,
because as your mom, in the sameexact time frame...
While I have always, and I'vesaid this in other episodes, I
always felt different.
I always felt like a little biton the outside and that I was
open to things.
And I had strange occurrenceshappen to me that I didn't know
were strange at the time.
During the time I was raisingyou, I was so busy being a

(06:06):
single mom that I don't think Igot to enjoy or be aware.
But then things were happeninganyway that were popping up and
I was noticing.
But having this opportunity tolook back with you at all the
events is going to be verydifferent.

SPEAKER_03 (06:22):
I think so.
Do you mind if I actually startwith one quick story that we've
never told that was mine?

SPEAKER_01 (06:28):
Yeah, please.

SPEAKER_03 (06:30):
Do you remember when I was in second grade and I went
to Lake Havasu with my friendChance?

SPEAKER_01 (06:34):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (06:35):
So during this trip, a friend of mine, when I was in
second grade, his family weregoing to go to Lake Havasu and
they had like an old RV.

SPEAKER_01 (06:44):
I was going to say, this is the RV trip.

SPEAKER_03 (06:45):
And the RV...
to me at the time lookedidentical to Aunt Sandy's RV.
It was still like a 1970s one.
Like they didn't have a new one.
It was like that.
And we drove out there fromCalifornia.
So it took all day.
We arrived just before midnight.
It was like 1150.
We pull into this dark spotright on the edge of the lake.

(07:07):
I already have goosebumps.
I thought, you know, it'sinteresting.
I was excited to be there.
And they say, let's just go putour feet in the water.
Oh, yeah.
His family was really strange.

SPEAKER_01 (07:18):
They were the strangest family.
Super nice, but super weird.

SPEAKER_03 (07:22):
The one thing I always tell people about his
family, every corner of theirhouse had a doll covering her
eyes, looking in the corner.
Like they were faced in thecorner as

SPEAKER_01 (07:31):
a decoration.
Were they decorative?

SPEAKER_03 (07:32):
They were decorative.

SPEAKER_01 (07:33):
Okay, but they were creepy.

SPEAKER_03 (07:35):
Yeah, they were like cloth, like sewn dolls about a
foot tall.
And they had their hands overtheir eyes and their face in the
corner.
And they had those in multiplecorners in the house.
And their house was very dark,like up on a hill.

SPEAKER_01 (07:46):
Yeah, they were a strange family.

SPEAKER_03 (07:48):
Anyway, so we go to put our feet in the water.
And, you know, I follow alongbecause I'm a kid.
And it's just they tell usthat's what we're going to do.
But then everyone turned aroundand is walking back up the
beach.
I'm still in the water about 30seconds longer looking out
across the lake.
And on the other side of thelake, I'm telling you, I saw

(08:08):
this giant bright light.
It was like, if I had held up aquarter in front of my eyes,
like pretty big, like maybeabout a foot from my eyes.
And it moved across the sky andwent down behind the water on
the other side of the lake.
Like a big orb.
It was a massive orb.

SPEAKER_00 (08:24):
Right, right.
I don't

SPEAKER_03 (08:25):
know if it's in the sky or was an orb.
To me it felt far away at thetime.
Sure.
Like, I've seen photos of like acomet or something and it would
be, it's fairly small, kind oflike a dot in the sky.
This was like as big as the sun.
in size and day.
You know how big that circlewould be moved across the sky.
And then what's weird is I wokeup the next day and I had a

(08:48):
horrible stomachache.
Do you remember that?
Yeah, that's when your stomachproblems started.
It was so...
I had the worst day of my life.
I was in so much pain.
And I know, not that that meantanything, but I felt like seeing
something weird...
That was the first time Iremember seeing something that
really, really...
It felt strange to

SPEAKER_01 (09:04):
me.
When you were so young, only insecond grade, to be aware that
it stuck with you all theseyears made an impression on you.

SPEAKER_03 (09:11):
This scene I never forgot because I thought there's
just, what could have been inthe sky?
It was like it was

SPEAKER_01 (09:17):
huge.
Was it high up in the sky orlower towards the horizon of the
lake?

SPEAKER_03 (09:21):
It started in the sky and it moved from the top
left of the sky to the bottomright and then disappeared
behind the water.

SPEAKER_01 (09:28):
Interesting.
Do you remember as a kid whatyou were thinking it might have
been?
I

SPEAKER_03 (09:33):
couldn't.
You were just in awe.
I just thought, I don't knowwhat it could be.
Interesting.
That's all.
And I just want to share becauseI think that was like the first
experience I had where I waslike, I absolutely to this day
know I saw it.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (09:49):
there's no doubt in your mind.

SPEAKER_03 (09:50):
And I can't explain it.
It was very weird.

SPEAKER_01 (09:52):
Well, not...
I know I used the word orb aminute ago, and I know that
people overuse, in my opinion,people overuse the word orb.
We've done enough experiments.
We know enough that oftentimesit's dirt, it's dust, it's
whatever on the lens.
However, we're going to get alittle off track, and that's
going to happen because we haveso much to talk about.

(10:13):
You and I both have completelyunrelated, amazing orb stories
in our Temecula house.
Oh, no, our second, our Murrietahouse.

SPEAKER_03 (10:22):
Moving back to the same city or

SPEAKER_01 (10:23):
area.
The same area.
And that area has a ton ofdevelopmental history, like from
what it used to be to what it istoday.
So I want to just put that inthere really quick.
So I am oftentimes a big, notskeptic, I got to come up with a
better word, of orbs.
Because when I'm watching showsor hearing people talk about it,

(10:46):
I can see where it very easilycould be a dirty lens or a piece
of debris or dust.
But no one will ever convince methat this particular time, as
with I'm sure other people havetheir ones that they're adamant
about, this particular time, Iknow without a shadow of a doubt
what I saw.
We were in our Murrieta house,so that was after Temecula,

(11:08):
many, many years later.
So this had to be 2015.
Yeah, so it's 2015 and 2016.
Okay, we just left Spokane.
Okay, so there I was nursingWilla for bedtime, and I'm
sitting in the chair, and I'mlooking at her closet.
And what I remember about thishouse is we did not have a lot
of stuff out.
It was a humongous rental house,and there wasn't...

(11:30):
time or reason to really likedecorate or unpack everything.
We just never stayed in thehouse that long.
And so I remember specificallythat her room was very empty.
She had a crib.
She had a little dresser and,um, the chair I was nursing her
in the closet was open.
And there was one of thoselittle Rubbermaid containers

(11:50):
that has like three drawers andyou could see through them.
It was clear.
So I knew her little clothdiapers and things were in there
and there I am nursing her.
And I had no cell phone in theroom.
Because I was present.
And the sun is setting.
It's getting dark in the room.
And I look in her closet becausethat's just where my eyes were
trained.
And no joke, there was a brightblue, the most beautiful blue

(12:16):
orb.
But it was bigger than asoftball.
And it was hovering in front ofthat Rubbermaid container.
And it was there near theground.
So big.
And I'm staring at it and Ican't move because I'm nursing
the baby and she's fallingasleep.
I can't take a picture because Ididn't have a phone, but I am
racking my brain the whole time.

(12:38):
There's got to be a light uptoy.
There's got to be something.
I'm going to go search overthere the minute I lay her down.
But everything I can see isthere's nothing in that closet.
There's nothing in this room.
There's no way light is shiningin there.
But there is this humongous orband it was there so long.
It had to have been at least afull minute because it it just
didn't go away.

(13:00):
It had to be 45 seconds to aminute.
And I felt trapped, not in a badway, but like there I was
holding the baby.
So I'm not going to like get upand go check it out.
But it was enough time for me tokeep running through my brain.
What else could this be?
So later I did check the closet.
There were no toys.
There were no light up toys.

(13:20):
There was nothing.
I even looked at the angle ofthe sun from the window, trying
to figure it out, but for it tobe the size bigger than a
softball and nothing in thatroom, I'll never to this day
know what it was, but itdefinitely was something.
And that house, that was thefirst house we lived in after
the haunted house in Spokane.
And I was still very raw andscared of everything.

(13:43):
I was just like, nervous to bealone in that house, nervous to
be in our room.
And the house had nothing to dowith it.
But I brought all this fear withme because I still didn't
understand what I was doing.
And I know you just recentlytold me you had a similar
experience in that house.

SPEAKER_03 (14:00):
I did.
And actually, I want to saywhat's interesting is when I was
telling the first story in this1AM in a Minute, I haven't
talked about the color.
but both incidents were, I wouldsay that it was blue, but the
center was bright white.
Like, you know, imagine ifsomething like a, it was like a
light bulb that was so bright,but the outer edge is bluish.
That is

SPEAKER_02 (14:20):
what I saw.

SPEAKER_03 (14:22):
But what's interesting is, so I was laying
in bed in my room in that houseone night and I opened my eyes
because I was like, I had thelight off for a little while,
but I was like getting settled,right?
and I saw an orb appear on theleft side of the room near the
door, move across the room toright in front of me, move a
little closer to me, and thenvanish.

SPEAKER_02 (14:44):
And

SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
it was the same size.
I would say it was bright whitewith like a bluish kind of tint
on the ends.
But what I say was reallyinteresting seeing this orb,
compared with when they talkabout orbs in video, which just
kind of, they look like theycould be a dust mote

SPEAKER_01 (15:00):
or something.

SPEAKER_03 (15:02):
This orb was so bright that when it disappeared,
I closed my eyes for a secondand blinked, and I could see the
bleaching of the cones as if Ihad looked at a light bulb.
And to me, that made me reallyfeel like, well, then I had to
see a real light.
My eyes and my brain interpretedthat there was such a bright

(15:24):
light, it left an impression

SPEAKER_02 (15:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (15:26):
On my eyes.

SPEAKER_02 (15:26):
Interesting.

SPEAKER_03 (15:27):
So if this was just maybe something I conjured up in
my mind, I didn't think thatthat would happen.
That's

SPEAKER_01 (15:33):
a good point.
And let me just, for ourlisteners who want to look up
bleaching of the cones orbleaching your cones, when you
do say, look towards the sun ora bright light, and then you
close your eyes and you stillsee that impression that you
have rods and cones in your eyesand the way in which your eyes
look, interpret that informationis it's called bleaching the

(15:54):
cones.
So if you want to research thatto know what we're talking
about, you, you absolutely can.
But that's a good point.
I hadn't thought of that.
That's a way to test yourself ofwhat you actually saw.
I

SPEAKER_03 (16:04):
think so.

SPEAKER_01 (16:05):
Cause if you, like you said, if you conjured it,
imagined it, if it was a pieceof dust, when you close your
eyes, you're not going to havean impression left.

SPEAKER_03 (16:13):
So I also will say in my story at Lake Havasu, That
didn't happen.
I do think the object felt faroff in the distance and I
remembered one detail.
The layout of the lake isn'tlike the Great Lakes where
there's just a horizon of water.
It meanders and then you'll seehills over the horizon.
The way that there would just beland or mountain or something.

(16:38):
It went in front of one hill andbehind another.

SPEAKER_02 (16:42):
If

SPEAKER_03 (16:44):
you're overlaying them on the horizon, It went
between two objects, so it had apoint in space.

SPEAKER_01 (16:50):
Okay, so that felt, do you think that was more like
an object?

SPEAKER_03 (16:54):
I think it had to have been, and I guess I'm
comparing while that they hadthe same color, I think that it
was a different experience thanseeing the orb in the house.
Makes sense.
For that reason.
And the intensity of the lightin my room was so close to my
eyes that it left an impression.

SPEAKER_01 (17:09):
And then it came towards you, and mine in the
same house hovered.
It knew it, let's say it has...
sentience knew I was looking andstayed yours moved towards you
so it'd be interesting to reallysit and think and maybe it'll

(17:29):
come to us about what or whomight have been visiting us at
that time especially after sucha traumatic time in our lives

SPEAKER_03 (17:37):
I do think it's one to me that house felt very
mundane and to an extent at thetime I was surprised I didn't
really think I wasn't in themindset that there was anything
going on.
So it just kind of felt like,well, that was very strange.
But I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 (17:54):
No.
And let me say this because I'mgonna ask you.
It didn't feel scary to me.

SPEAKER_03 (17:57):
No, not one bit.
I was more perplexed.
At the end, I was like, wow,that was...
That was very strange.

SPEAKER_01 (18:03):
Interesting, strange, but not at one point
did I at all feel scared, whichwas interesting having come from
such a scary...
Coming from recently.
So that was not at all scary.
It was just very fascinating.
Yeah, I think

SPEAKER_03 (18:14):
that's a good point.
I also, I guess I'm going tosay, we're going to get into
other experiences we've had.

SPEAKER_01 (18:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (18:21):
And seeing kind of this bright object, I don't
think in its own way, seeingjust like a bright thing of
light isn't very scary.
True.
You know what I mean?
To me, seeing the orb, whileanomalous, is not in itself a
frightening visual.
No.
As some of the things that I

SPEAKER_01 (18:39):
saw.
Yeah, something turning,something moving, something...
Right?
Right?

SPEAKER_03 (18:43):
So...

SPEAKER_01 (18:44):
Good point.
Well, let's go back in time.
So you and I were living inTemecula in California by
ourselves around 2005.
2005 and

SPEAKER_03 (18:54):
then a couple years.

SPEAKER_01 (18:56):
For a couple of years.
And...
I want to give a little bit ofbackground on that house because
you weren't with me when I metup with the realtor.

SPEAKER_03 (19:04):
Yeah, you need to do that first.

SPEAKER_01 (19:06):
So we were living in Escondido still and we were
going to buy a house.
And Temecula was nice and moreaffordable.
We could get more house for themoney.
And so I got in touch with arealtor online and I told her
what we were kind of lookingfor.
And she put together a whole dayof house hunting with some
listings.

(19:26):
And I go up there and we lookand we look and we look in every
single house.
I was like, no, not this one,not this one.
I just, none were really thatexciting.
And we were looking at one and Idon't remember what the problem
was.
And I don't think it mattersbecause then we turned and
across the street, she said, oh,that house is for sale, but I
didn't have it on my list.

(19:47):
And for whatever reason, and weknow it, we know, um, I was
like, I'm not interested in thathouse.
And she goes, well, let's justlet's go look because we're
right here.

SPEAKER_02 (19:56):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (19:57):
And I was like, OK, fine.
So we go in there and I'll neverforget.
It was very strange.
The owner of the house wassitting on like an ice chest, a
cooler in the middle of thekitchen, looking all like
downtrodden.
And I guess he was doing somerepairs.
It had been a rental.
And so it was it kind of hadsome things wrong with it.
Well, we did a tour and Iremember going in the master

(20:20):
bedroom and instantly I did notwant to be in this house.
And I don't know if you all,I'll be happy to know if you
remember this.
They had it staged with crappyfurniture.
And there was

SPEAKER_03 (20:30):
a bassinet.

SPEAKER_01 (20:30):
And there was a bassinet.

SPEAKER_03 (20:31):
You should, because I went later.

SPEAKER_01 (20:32):
Okay.
And the bassinet had a blanketover it.

SPEAKER_03 (20:35):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (20:35):
And okay, bassinet shouldn't be scary.
Even with a blanket over it.
So what?
The room was heavy.
It was dark.
It was heavy.
I didn't feel good.
And then we went in the bathroomand oh, the realtor was gushing
over the master bathroom becauseit had really expensive tile on
all the walls, the floor,everything was tiled.

(20:56):
Remember that?

SPEAKER_03 (20:57):
You were in like a stone room.

SPEAKER_01 (20:58):
Yes.
It was weird.
And instead of being impressed,I just felt yucky.
So come we leave.
And I was like, yeah, no, I'mnot really interested in that
house.
But that was when I was marriedto not my husband now.
And it was his turn to come upand look at some houses he had

(21:21):
been working.
And funny thing was, heinstantly loved that house.
He's like, this is the one.
This is the one.

SPEAKER_03 (21:29):
I will say, objectively, it was a nice
house.

SPEAKER_01 (21:32):
It was a gorgeous house with a perfect yard.
I

SPEAKER_03 (21:33):
want to make it clear.
Oh my God, the house.
I can picture

SPEAKER_01 (21:35):
the front.
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (21:36):
And in a really pretty...
neighborhood.
Beautiful neighborhood.
It was right off the main road.

SPEAKER_01 (21:42):
Great view, great breeze, lovely backyard, nice
neighborhood.
Everything was perfect.
But something inside was yucky.
Yeah, in a cul-de-sac with otherkids.
It could not have been a moreideal.
It looked like a community poolthat was like Olympic size and
stunning.
Anybody would have wanted tolive in this house.

(22:02):
So I felt weird that I didn't.
But of course, he wanted thathouse.
So we buy the house.
And yeah, icky right away stuffwas happening.
This is the one where my, Ireally believe my grandpa was
there.
My grandpa, Sam, that you'renamed after, he had been an

(22:24):
electrician in life and this iswhere all the electronics, all
the lights were starting toadjust all the time.
And I just felt this comfortingsense of, that it was my
grandfather.
And I think because the marriagewas so bad and short-lived and
thankfully and all that, I feltmy grandpa was there taking care
of me.
And you know that.

(22:45):
And I want to share some ofthat, but I want to let you
talk.
So that's the set up of why wewere there, how we got in that
house, and where some of thisjoint stuff started to happen.

SPEAKER_03 (23:00):
I think there were a couple things.
One more interesting feature ofthe house was, do you remember
it had that bonus room off thekitchen that had a weird
multicolored fan?
Each of the fan blades was adifferent primary color.
That's

SPEAKER_01 (23:11):
right.

SPEAKER_03 (23:11):
In

SPEAKER_01 (23:13):
this beautiful, neutral colored house.

SPEAKER_03 (23:15):
Yeah, and I believe the walls were painted a
different color.
I can't remember.

SPEAKER_01 (23:18):
I think they were just neutral color.

SPEAKER_03 (23:20):
But it was just kind of different from the rest of
the house.
And it kind of felt like, well,what do you do with this?

SPEAKER_02 (23:25):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (23:26):
But anyway, I think...
But aside from the thing withthe electronics, which is the
big one, I think definitely theweirdness with our cats.

SPEAKER_01 (23:34):
Travis lost all his hair.

SPEAKER_03 (23:36):
Yeah, the cats started losing their hair, and
they were acting very strangely.
And then what I really focusedon for me was the master bedroom
as well.
I do believe that when peopletalk about paranormal encounters
and things, and they talk aboutan oppressive atmosphere, Like,
I really believe that, like,that's a hallmark.

(23:57):
It is something you can trulyfeel.
And there was something aboutstepping into that room that I
just can't even describe.
I was taken on the tour and Isaw the room with the bassinet
and the staging and it did feelspooky at the time.
But later on, a lot of thingshappened and eventually the
carpet was ripped up in thatroom, which just made it a
million times worse.

SPEAKER_01 (24:17):
The carpet was gross and never going to be, like,
cleanable again.
And so we just ripped it upthinking we would replace it.
But then for a while, it wasjust a plywood floor.

SPEAKER_03 (24:28):
So there was a point later where the cat box was in
there.

SPEAKER_01 (24:32):
Because I got divorced and I moved out.
Yes.
Just so our listenersunderstand.
I moved into one of the smallerbedrooms.
You, Sam, had the other smallbedroom.
And we just dedicated the masterbedroom to the cat box.

UNKNOWN (24:45):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (24:46):
And I don't remember why, but for some reason we had
to keep the cats in the room atsome point.
I remember several times likethis.
So I would have to go in andclose the door while I cleaned
the cat box.
I think honestly that was one ofthe most times I've ever been
scared.
I truly felt as a kid thatrarely did I feel really, really

(25:07):
scared.

SPEAKER_01 (25:07):
Like in danger.

SPEAKER_03 (25:08):
And this was like...
I was holding my breath,counting the minutes.
Like if I stayed here one secondlonger, something bad was going
to happen.

SPEAKER_01 (25:14):
I felt the same way.
No

SPEAKER_03 (25:15):
matter how much I, you know, the windows were open
and there's sunlight comingthrough and you can see the
house behind.
I felt like I could not spendone minute longer in that room.
I don't think to this day I'vebeen in a location where where I
felt like I needed to leaveimmediately.
Even when we've been to like theYuma prison in the solitary
confinement cell or all thesethings, I've never felt a sense

(25:37):
of like, I need to leave thisroom as much as there.
And then there was one otherincident.
I don't know if you remember,but there's one day we got
locked out of the house for somereason.
And the only way in was, I don'tremember the situation, but we
got a ladder to go up into themaster bedroom because the
window was open.

SPEAKER_02 (25:56):
Oh, right over

SPEAKER_03 (25:57):
the balcony.
Yeah.
And going into the house tounlock the door, starting in the
master bedroom, I was meaning.
Scary.
I thought, there's no way I'mgoing to make it out alive.
Like, that's how I felt.
Maybe not that thought in myhead, but like the fear I felt
was that if I had to go throughthe window, get to the bastard
bedroom door, open it, godownstairs and unlock the thing

(26:18):
before like any adults werethere with me was so scary.
But on the other hand, I do wantto say I had a lot of great
memories in that house and otherareas.
I had a lot of fun things I did.
It was a really happy time in mylife.
I remember I was in fourthgrade.
I was playing games on thecomputer that I liked.

SPEAKER_01 (26:36):
I was watching shows that I liked.
We were watching Netflix all thetime back when you ordered DVDs
in the mail.

SPEAKER_03 (26:41):
Honestly, I...
I think I had some super funtimes.
So I think the point I'm tryingto make is that the master
bedroom is something different.
It's not like this whole housejust made me feel spooky or
something.
I had a great time, but I justdidn't want to be in there.

SPEAKER_01 (26:57):
I enjoyed the house as well.
Once the marriage was over andit was just us, I did have a
good routine there.
I loved my office upstairs thatwas in that little extra loft
area.
We had friends over.
We, it was very nice.
The yard was nice.
Everything was nice.
That room was, was just awful.

(27:18):
And I don't know if youremember, but a lot of the stuff
that I thought my grandpa wasdoing stopped the minute I,
filed for divorce.

SPEAKER_03 (27:29):
It was interesting.
It actually started right whenwe moved in.
I remember one of the firstincidents was within

SPEAKER_01 (27:35):
minutes, days.
There were

SPEAKER_03 (27:36):
still boxes in the living room when it happened.
I

SPEAKER_01 (27:41):
remember right away our refrigerator died on move-in
day.
Literally, we had to get a newfridge on the day we were moving
in.
And that was like, huh, okay,well, random, weird, whatever.
But then...
I remember so vividly.
And these are the stories I liketo tell people.
I remember so vividly that Iwould like clean everything up

(28:03):
downstairs and I would turn offall the lights and I would be
heading up for bed and I'd getto the first landing and all the
lights would come on downstairs.
And I was like, what the heck?
I'd come back down, turn theswitches off.
Strange things like that wouldhappen so much so that I called
grandpa.
I called my dad and I was like,dad, You were not going to

(28:24):
believe this.
And he's like, ah, there's anexplanation for everything.
I said, no, you've got to comeover and see this for yourself.
So grandpa came up.

SPEAKER_03 (28:32):
I remember.

SPEAKER_01 (28:33):
And there we are.
We locked up everythingdownstairs.
We turned off all the lights.
We start walking up.
Boom.
All the kitchen lights come on.

SPEAKER_03 (28:40):
I remember that.
I actually remember I was behindyou guys walking the stairs and
I remember grandpa turningaround.

SPEAKER_02 (28:46):
Do

SPEAKER_03 (28:46):
you?
Like I just see his face turningaround when they turned on.
And what I think is I mean, youcould see a million paranormal
investigations and they can askthe spirits to do whatever and
be just waiting for evidence.
For something to almost be oncommand and really prove itself
to someone who came to beskeptical is pretty incredible.

SPEAKER_01 (29:08):
It was super incredible.
And that it happened multipletimes.
And that there was alwayssome...
something like that going on.
And the favorite one, I don'tremember if you were at your
dad's or if you were upstairs inbed, but the one that I am so
shocked about.
So I like to tell the story thatin the old days, I'm doing air
quotes, in the old days when wewould have to watch TV through a

(29:31):
stereo so you could listen to iton the better speakers.
We had the stereo downstairs andobviously it would have CD,
radio, stereo, the differentchoices and you would push the
button Well, it was hooked up tostereo because grandma and
grandpa came up and we watched amovie together and we watched it
through stereo.

(29:53):
The movie was over late atnight, probably close to 11.
We walked my parents out, saygoodbye to them, come back in.
We're locking up and we go towalk up the stairs and the CD
player comes on.
blasting ACDC's Hell's Bells.

SPEAKER_03 (30:10):
I do remember.

SPEAKER_01 (30:11):
Oh my God.
So blasting it.
So how did it get from twopoints here?
How did it get from stereo toCD?
And also my grandfather, the onewe've been talking about named
Sam, when I was a little girl,he is grouchy.
He'd walk around the house,Hell's Bells, Hell's Bells.
That was his saying.
So that night, why did it playof all songs?

(30:36):
Hell's Bells, and how did itswitch from stereo to CD on its
own?

SPEAKER_03 (30:39):
And then I would argue, I mean, you'd have to
look up the album, but like, wasit the first song or did it
select a specific track?
Oh, that'd be fun to look thatup.
I actually remember going toschool and telling my friends
about this thing that happenedbecause it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 (30:55):
Oh my God.
It's just so shocking.
And why I say that too is whatwe mentioned earlier.
The minute he moved out and wefiled for divorce, all of it
stopped.
It all stopped.
And I felt like saying to mygrandfather's spirit, well, I
remember thinking, thank you forprotecting me.

(31:15):
I know that was you.
And now you must not feel that Ineed the protection because I'm
no longer in this situation.
But how do those things juststop?

SPEAKER_03 (31:26):
I feel like that one was pretty clear.
I think...
You know, for a lot of otherthings you don't know or there
might be some ambiguity, I feellike in this one it was very
clear.
And he responded to, like,Grampy coming over and other
things.
It just felt like it was verytargeted.

SPEAKER_01 (31:47):
Very targeted.
Very specific.
In a way that

SPEAKER_03 (31:49):
I've never seen again.
No.

SPEAKER_01 (31:52):
And isn't it interesting to think, so just
for anybody who's listening,this was before, again, way
before this.
the Spokane house when anybodyever told me I was a medium
before any of that.
So at this point in my life,when that was happening, when
that was going on, I was stillin the mindset of I'm just weird
and different.

(32:13):
This is normal stuff for me.
I'm okay with spirit.
I'm okay with death.
I had been there when mygrandfather died.
I'd been there when mygrandmother died.
So I just thought I was thisweirdo.
Who was okay with death anddying and that I wasn't freaked
out that my grandfather wasvisiting me.
This was kind of normal to me.
So strangely, before I ever evengot further in this information,

(32:37):
that I had something else goingon in my life.

SPEAKER_03 (32:41):
I think, if I remember correctly, immediately
though, I don't know if you madethe connection to your
grandfather.
Because I remember talking atthe time, oh...
All of these spooky things havehappened, including the bedroom.
And I feel like at that time, itwas just like all this house.
But then I think looking at itlater, there's obviously a
difference between the eventsgoing on with the lights and the

(33:03):
music and the room.

SPEAKER_01 (33:04):
The room was 100% separate.
Yeah, the room.
And maybe grandpa was there forsome of that, too.
My grandpa.
I don't know.
But that's a great point.
The bedroom, completelyisolated, so different, don't
want to even think about it.
But the other stuff with mygrandpa doing these things, I
think it was him letting me knowhe was there supporting me in

(33:25):
this terrible

SPEAKER_03 (33:26):
marriage.
You know, I think it'sinteresting because we're going
to be discussing this way thatsome of our perceptions have
changed.
And I feel like a thing thatI've...
Maybe I feel like I believe nowis...
is especially after what we gothrough in Spokane, I don't
believe maybe in portals orsomething, or the way that they

(33:48):
talk about that, but I feel likea location can be...
Maybe it's not that there'sspecifically a spirit, but a
location itself can be off, orthere can be something bad.

SPEAKER_01 (33:59):
Lloyd Auerbach and I talked about that when I
interviewed him about some...
Oh my God, why did the wordjust...
Geo-something just left mybrain.
But how there can be someelectromagnetic fuzz, for lack
of a better word, something inan area that can create all
kinds of weird things.
So you brought up location.

SPEAKER_03 (34:20):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (34:21):
What do you think...
Are you thinking about stillthat Temecula house?
The bedroom?
Or where were you going withthat?

SPEAKER_03 (34:28):
Well, because the bedroom to me is really
interesting.
Because if...
You know...
Sometimes I think we lack thevocabulary for talking about
spiritual things.
Again, for even a lack of abetter word for that.
I don't think English has a lotof variations.
So sometimes it can be difficultto describe what you're saying.
But I feel that if we're sayingthat the specific point of land

(34:51):
is cursed, for lack of a betterword, or has some dark feeling
to it.
It's weird to me.
that I would think that thatwould be like the ground itself
or a specific area.
But this room is on the secondfloor.
It's isolated like a 3D space inthe air in a way.
Like if you take away the house,right?

(35:11):
There was something aboutcrossing the threshold from the
hall into that room, crossingthe store, this instant change.
And later in Spokane, I reallywant to discuss this region
outside of the house that had asimilar feeling to me.
And I guess...
Maybe I'm not going somewherespecific with it, but just this
idea of that even in a man-madestructure, separated from the

(35:35):
earth itself, there could justbe a space that's off.
A pocket.
That I think has a negativeenergy.
And I don't like to oftenascribe things to be bad or evil
or negative.
I try to just look at thingskind of neutrally.
But I do think that that roomwas one place where I felt it
felt negative.
It felt oppressive.
Very clearly.

SPEAKER_01 (35:55):
So do you...
I like the theory of this pocketin space.
It's interesting.
I hadn't thought of that before.
In this particular case, though,what about the people who maybe
lived there before us?
Maybe they had fought a lot.
Maybe there was some abuse.
Maybe there was something likethat.
And it just was hidden in thatroom.

(36:16):
That's usually what people chalkit up to is residual abuse.
energy from a bad situationrepeating and repeating and
repeating so for those listenersout there that might be like oh
maybe it was residual energyfrom you know a bad marriage or
somebody's baby passed away orsomething horrible you know but

(36:39):
i don't know because you'reright i don't like the word evil
and i've said that in my podcastbefore but that room

SPEAKER_03 (36:45):
that room felt

SPEAKER_01 (36:47):
awful if

SPEAKER_03 (36:50):
there Every moment felt unsafe.

SPEAKER_01 (36:55):
It did.
It felt like a, like, okay, notto be dramatic, but to be
dramatic.
It literally felt like somebodycould have absolutely been
murdered in that bathroom.

SPEAKER_03 (37:03):
I personally feel like every moment in there, I
felt like someone was going tocome murder me.
And maybe that sounds silly orfrom my perspective as a kid,
but I'm genuinely saying I havenever felt that way anywhere
else.
Me neither.
It felt like someone wouldspontaneously materialize and
that would be the end of me.

SPEAKER_01 (37:20):
Oh my God.
That's so

SPEAKER_03 (37:21):
scary.
And It was maybe okay.
I could see that this particularthing it evoked within me was
like a sense of like beingchased or like this idea of
like- You were in a hurry.
I'm in a hurry.
And if I don't leave fastenough- I'm in danger.
I'm in danger.
And maybe that is this residualexperience.

(37:41):
But I also, I bring this upbecause when we get to the other
area, I feel like there's adifference between human
actions, maybe creating residualenergy and maybe a place itself
It's something beyond action.

SPEAKER_01 (37:54):
It's good to bring up both.
And so I'm laying

SPEAKER_03 (37:56):
the groundwork here.

SPEAKER_01 (37:57):
Yeah.
And it's a different vibe andother people may have the same
experiences.
So after Temecula House, we dida lot of moving and I don't
think that there were a lot ofopportunities because we...
We moved down with your grandmaand grandpa for a little while.
We had our first house here inArizona.
Then we moved to Idaho.

(38:18):
So we had two houses in Idaho.
And I don't think there were anyoccurrences.

SPEAKER_03 (38:23):
No.
One thing I want to maybe backup a little and say is at least
I feel like in Tucson, Arizona,I feel like a lot of the homes
and things, it doesn't feel likeas...
active it doesn't in asupernatural sense as I've maybe
felt in somewhere like Idaho orWashington

SPEAKER_01 (38:42):
that is an interesting point because I feel
the same way there's a lot ofactivity that we felt up there
whether we were going to likesay estate sales and into
people's homes we also went intoa lot of homes because we were
in a lot of play groups becauseyour sisters were babies we went
into a lot of homes up there andit was a very very different
vibe than anything in mychildhood in Southern California

(39:06):
And our tomacular homes, that'sa great point.

SPEAKER_03 (39:09):
And, you know, you could say, oh, maybe it's
because it's a little darker andrainier and cold.
But I think there's something toit.
Even Sarah said...
Sarah's my wife, by the way.
She said to me the other day,she's like, I feel like there's
something about the PacificNorthwest being off.
Well, there's more serialkillers.
A lot of crime.
It actually came up because wewere talking.

(39:29):
She saw the thing about a serialkiller in Washington that was
the most prolific in the U.S.
we'd never heard of.
And I brought up the serialkiller in Spokane that we had
heard about.
And we had known people who hadbeen involved in that case.

SPEAKER_01 (39:43):
And let's just add for our listeners that Sarah is
a non-believer.
big time about a lot of thisstuff.
I feel sad sometimes that she's,her mother-in-law is a crazy
psychic medium.
Cause she can usually come upwith an explanation or she just
kind of rationalizes thesethings away.

SPEAKER_03 (40:00):
So I think to clarify, because I might come up
with things that I've talked toSarah about later and on our
different perspectives, but Ithink Sarah is someone who who
believes, and that's why shechooses to rationalize it,
because she's more fearful.

SPEAKER_01 (40:14):
Okay, she's one of the fearful types.
For her,

SPEAKER_03 (40:17):
she needs to tell herself that it has to be this,
because it would be difficult

SPEAKER_01 (40:22):
for it to be the real thing.
But

SPEAKER_03 (40:24):
she certainly believes that it's all real.
Thank you for the clarification.
Which I do think is a differentperspective than your dismissive
kind of person.

SPEAKER_01 (40:31):
Absolutely, absolutely.
Great point.
Thank you for clarifying that.
Okay, so...
different energy in the PacificNorthwest than, say, the
Southern California, Arizona,where we are now.

SPEAKER_03 (40:44):
I sometimes think that while, you know, maybe you
can talk about the days of theWild West or, you know,
California is a really oldstate, but in a way they're also
newer than compared to, say, theEast Coast.

SPEAKER_02 (40:56):
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (40:57):
Which has a lot more history.
I think We're people who havegrown up in the Western United
States.
And I think that really colorsour personality and the way we
view things.
It's its own specific culture.
And I think there's somethingabout being in the Southwest
that's very...
maybe focused on the now and thenew, where I think the Pacific
Northwest also feels like it hasthis older kind of- It does feel

(41:19):
older.
And the way the communitieswork.
And more native.
People have lived there a longtime for many generations.
They're very established.
It's more difficult to breakinto as an outsider.

SPEAKER_01 (41:29):
I was just going to say, let's do a funny note that
we were told literally multipletimes by people oh, we're
original owners.
Oh, we don't need friends.
We have friends.
They're not very welcoming tonew people.
And while we did make friends, alot of people said, no, we're
friends with people fromkindergarten and that's just the
way it stays.

SPEAKER_03 (41:49):
And I thought that was really interesting.
I mean, we grew up near SanDiego.
It's a melting pot if there everwas one.
It's you know, incrediblydiverse, there's lots of people,
and no one's really feeling thatthey have a claim more

SPEAKER_01 (42:02):
than anyone else.
Everyone's a transplant, justlike here in Tucson.

SPEAKER_03 (42:04):
Yeah, and Tucson does have that vibe.
And to me, sometimes I thinkthat's the collective mindset
feels like new or indifferent.
I think when you're in Arizona,there's certainly locations that
have an old history.
You can go to a mining town, youcan go to something that's
connected history, but thecities themselves are very
recent in a way.
Like if you go to like thecenter of Tucson, I'm sure it

(42:25):
was established in the 1880s.

SPEAKER_01 (42:27):
Sure, but Marana, where we live, was 1977, the
year I was born.

SPEAKER_03 (42:31):
Or was it 97,

SPEAKER_01 (42:33):
the year you were born?

SPEAKER_03 (42:34):
I think Marana's newer.
I was looking at Oro Valley ontheir website yesterday, which
is a region where I live here,just down the road, but it's a
separate town.
And they said that when theyfirst incorporated in the 70s,
that they only had like 150residents or something.
It was such a small circle.
And only in the last coupleyears has it grown to be like

(42:57):
20,000 or

SPEAKER_01 (42:58):
something.
Okay, well here we're gonna goon a tangent and then we should
get over to Spokane.
Temecula.

SPEAKER_03 (43:04):
Temecula was a...

SPEAKER_01 (43:05):
When I was a child, Temecula was nothing.
There was one dirt road.
No one lived there.
It became a boom in like 1997.
Like when you were born, that'swhen things started to happen
out there.
My aunt and uncle lived in oneof the very first housing tracts
that was built right off of themain drag in Temecula.

(43:26):
There was nothing there.
So interesting that we'retalking about these little
tiny...
I

SPEAKER_03 (43:30):
think just...
Two anecdotes on that that Ithink are fun is I've met people
from other states who know ofTemecula, California.
And I was surprised because inmy mind, it's not like a big
city like San Diego.
It's kind of far away inland.
And they're like, I just hearabout it as this fancy city.

SPEAKER_01 (43:48):
Yeah, because of the wine country.
The wine

SPEAKER_03 (43:50):
country, this metropolis out there, this
luxury

SPEAKER_01 (43:52):
city.

SPEAKER_03 (43:53):
And in my mind, I'm like, oh, it's just Temecula.
It's just a place.
It is beautiful.
It's a beautiful place.
But we didn't experience it likethat.
Someone else's outsideperspective.
Also, when I was at that churchevent with Sarah the other day,
we met an older man and a womanwho both had lived in San Diego
in the past.

SPEAKER_02 (44:11):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (44:11):
But they both lived there in the 60s, but haven't
really been back since.
And the guy even said he left inlike 68.
He's like, oh, when I livedthere, Escondido was just a gas
station.

SPEAKER_01 (44:22):
Totally.
Yeah, when my dad was born,that's how it was.

SPEAKER_03 (44:25):
And that's incredible to me compared to how
it is, but...
But that's that newness I'mtalking about, where I will say
in places like Spokane, many ofthe houses are over 100 years
old.

SPEAKER_01 (44:37):
Yes, and they all have basements.
Sorry, that's just a side note.
They have basements.

SPEAKER_03 (44:41):
I think I just want to make it clear that a lot of
the construction, a lot of theplace in the city are at least
100 years old.
Where we're talking about, youknow, these places that we've
lived in California and Tucsonare within the last few decades,
within one lifetime.
True.
And that's the difference.

SPEAKER_01 (44:56):
The South Hill in Spokane is

SPEAKER_03 (44:58):
even older.

SPEAKER_01 (44:58):
Remember, we'd go visit Emily in her house and
they look modern and new, butthey're not.

SPEAKER_03 (45:04):
Do you remember the South Hill was where that serial
killer operated?

SPEAKER_01 (45:08):
He

SPEAKER_03 (45:08):
killed women off of Sprague and then buried them in
his backyard in the South Hill.

SPEAKER_01 (45:12):
Oh, isn't that nice?
Yeah.
So a little food for thoughtthere that if you want to do
some research on serial killers,they're very, very prolific in
the Pacific Northwest where welived for a while.
And And OK, so let's move on tothe

SPEAKER_03 (45:28):
house in Spokane.

SPEAKER_01 (45:29):
Do some because they've heard me talk about this
house a lot.
I would like you to do some leadup as, again, a teenager
perspective.
How old were you?
And talk about the location,your friends, all of that stuff,
because I think it reallymatters.
And it paints a picturedifferent than my picture.

SPEAKER_03 (45:46):
So I think for just a bit of background, we had
lived in Post Falls, Idaho, andit was 30 minutes away across
the border.
And I had.
was in my sophomore year of highschool.
I still hadn't finished.
There was still a little bit ofschool left when we decided to
move to Spokane.
And I know I was reallydisappointed at the time,
because I had made many friendsin Idaho.

(46:07):
I was on the cross-country team.
I did a lot of activities inschool, and so I was a bit
disappointed.
But to be honest, when I saw thehouse in Spokane while I was
bummed, it was gorgeous.
I don't think I've lived in ahouse since that objectively I
think was as incredible as thishouse.

(46:29):
It was located up on this hill,so far up that it overlooked the
whole city if you walked downthe street a little and looked
between the other houses.
I remember just one scene, likeI could look out my bedroom
window in the winter and itdidn't have street lights, it
had street lamps like a movie.
And there's just this gentleblanket of snow falling on the
road and these street lamps.

(46:50):
It was beautiful.
And then I think my favoritething, and not that this is not
uncommon there but i like thesplit level houses so there's
like a basement there's a livingroom but then the kitchen's on
another level with anotherliving room and houses and
houses bedrooms were upstairsand in a way i felt like it felt
cozy and there was a lot ofdifferent space to do different
things and spend your timedifferently which was nice in

(47:13):
the winter months

SPEAKER_01 (47:14):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (47:14):
so

SPEAKER_01 (47:15):
beautiful yard beautiful deck

SPEAKER_03 (47:17):
oh the yard and you did have a deck on the back
where you barbecue um Well, Ihad to mow the huge parts to
some extent.
That was difficult.
And a decorative cherry tree outfront.
Yeah.
It was really nice.
So I remember even havingfriends come over in high school
and they said, we looked up yourhouse.
It's like a million dollarhouse.
And we were just renting.
And it wasn't like the priceeven reflected that.

SPEAKER_01 (47:39):
You had so much fun in that.
I loved that all your highschool friends would come over.
You'd have your game night.
I loved buying snacks for youguys.
And your sisters would pop theirheads into your game nights.
And it just really...
that side of it was so fun andfamily oriented because as a
mom, that is what I had alwayswanted.
I wanted the house where all thekids wanted to come.

SPEAKER_03 (48:01):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (48:01):
You know, where my kids would be safe and their
friends would be having fun atour house.

SPEAKER_03 (48:05):
And I think we really got to have that.
And I think that's like we weresaying with the Temecula house,
there, there are good times andthere are many good memories and
these things are kind of in away, an independent because you
are living a life there.

SPEAKER_01 (48:19):
I will say the Spokane house, 100% different
from the Temecula house in thatI didn't feel in danger in the
Temecula house except thatbedroom.
In Spokane, once that stuffstarted happening and dad
left...

SPEAKER_03 (48:36):
It did.

SPEAKER_01 (48:36):
It was all bad.
All bad.
But yeah, leading up to itmatters.

SPEAKER_03 (48:41):
I think what I want to say too, though, and things
are only...
clear in retrospect.
Because what I feel is that whenthe stuff started happening, a
lot of other things becameclear.
A lot of things that had beenwritten off or felt like, okay,
that was strange, whatever.
And so I think that that lendeditself to, ooh, maybe I feel

(49:04):
like this is spooky or I'mhaving this feeling, but I'm
going to write it off into mylife.
It's only when it came to a headthat then it all becomes clear.
And looking back, you can kindof say, oh, well, the whole time
it was like

SPEAKER_01 (49:16):
this.
It was trying to get ourattention this whole time.

SPEAKER_03 (49:18):
But we weren't aware at the time.
And so that's kind of how wecould continue on as we did.
So it's hard because I thinkthat when we talk about this
story, we have differentspecific events that stick out
to us.
And you've talked about this.
But there are some incidentsthat I had.
And so because you've coveredsome of

SPEAKER_01 (49:39):
it,

SPEAKER_03 (49:40):
One thing I wanted to start with was that dream I
had.
Oh, I

SPEAKER_01 (49:43):
was thinking about that.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (49:45):
The most visceral experience I've ever had in a
dream.

SPEAKER_01 (49:48):
So give the layout of where you slept, though.
I will.
Because it was very different.
But I think that's a greatexample.

SPEAKER_03 (49:54):
So this was a personal experience of mine.
And I also think that sometimeswhen telling the story, I leave
it out because a dream feelsvery subjective.

SPEAKER_01 (50:02):
But a lot of people who believe in this stuff and
who are listening, a lot ofpeople know the power of dreams.
Sure, some dreams are random andour brain is just working things
out.
Other times, our dreams aretrying to communicate with us.
So I think it matters in this

SPEAKER_03 (50:17):
case.
So I'm sharing it here.
Perfect.
That's the big point.
So anyway, I had a bedroom inthe basement of the house.
To some extent, that was funbecause there was also a
dancer's living room where I hadfriends over and

SPEAKER_01 (50:29):
I had a fun time.
And its own separate entrance,so it wasn't like a...
a dungeon.
This was an actual living space.

SPEAKER_03 (50:35):
So from the main living room upstairs, you'd walk
down the stairs.
To your right was just anopening.
to a living room.
And that living room had awindow on the back wall.
And then it also had a door thatled out to the backyard because
the house was built on a hill.
So the back of the house wasexposed, but the front side was
underground.

SPEAKER_01 (50:56):
And the door also had a window.
So it was nice and bright.
It was an actual living areathat could have been rented out
as a separate living area with abedroom.

SPEAKER_03 (51:05):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (51:06):
And a creepy furnace room.

SPEAKER_03 (51:07):
So that's what you get to.
When you're at the bottom of thestairs, you could turn right and
you could look into the livingroom.
And left of you was a door.
And this was the furnace room,which was just kind of an
unfinished storage area.
It just looked very spooky.
It felt spooky.
To some extent, I'm just like,it would look spooky to anyone.
Sure.
And we kept some junk in thereand I just didn't open it.

SPEAKER_01 (51:30):
Right.
We just don't go there.

SPEAKER_03 (51:31):
I feel...
And then...
If you went straight ahead ofthe stairs, so the same
direction was my bedroom, and mybedroom was really nice.
And while it was in thebasement, there was a window on
the back that was at groundlevel.
So if I looked out the window, Iwould see our yard at the base.
It was kind of behind a bush andunder a tree, and I could look

(51:54):
out on the street.
But I often kept the windowcovered.
So yeah, so...
with that layout in mind onenight i had fallen asleep and i
had this dream and in my dream iwas upstairs in the living room
and we were having a party andmy grandparents were there and
family friends were there and iremember it feeling like

(52:15):
wonderful upstairs because weexperienced like long winters in
this house and they weresometimes difficult in this The
sliding glass doors were openand a breeze was wafting through
the house.
We actually had curtains on thewindows.
And in my dream, they wereclearly blowing in this breeze.
And there were people standingaround in small groups with

(52:35):
drinks, talking, having a greattime.
Well, I felt this likeimperative in my dream.
I thought I need to go write aletter, which is really weird.

SPEAKER_01 (52:45):
Oh, my God.
I don't remember this.
Because I'm here

SPEAKER_03 (52:48):
again.
to be honest I mean like with myage I'm rarely writing letters
and but I thought I have towrite a letter and so I need to
get an envelope very strangedevelopment well downstairs in
that living room we had a kindof filing cabinet we did and it
just stored random pieces ofpaper junk things that we had

(53:10):
saved and I knew in my headthere were envelopes down there
so I kind of said Oh, I'll justbe one second to everyone
upstairs.
And I walked down and it's likethe vibe changed.
I wasn't, it's like the partywasn't there anymore.
All of a sudden it's dark in thestairs down.
It just, it grows incrediblysilent because also upstairs is

(53:33):
a party.
There's people talking.
I mean like dead silent.
I walked down and as I get tothe final step, I just turn my
head to turn into this livingroom and I see the door.
The door that went out to thebackyard was ajar just a little
bit, like maybe open an inch.
But the thing was, there's awindow in the top of the door.

(53:55):
And through that window, I sawtwo bright, glowing yellow eyes.
Like, it felt like right afterthe sun sets when it's still a
little light outside, but likeit's dark near the ground.
It was like that time of day.
And it had also been bright andsunny upstairs.
So it's like time had almostpassed.
And I see these eyes and Ifreeze.

(54:17):
And as my brain kind of adjuststo the lower light, I see it's
this giant wolf outside.
I don't like...
I don't know.
Some people are kind of likeinto wolves or dogs.
I've never cared about that mywhole life.
I've never thought about any ofthese things.

SPEAKER_01 (54:31):
Weirdly, wolves are a thing in the Pacific
Northwest.
They are.
Okay, so we should not forget

SPEAKER_03 (54:36):
that.

UNKNOWN (54:36):
But I...

SPEAKER_03 (54:37):
I guess there can be some things that are in your
conscious awareness more.
Yeah.
And that shouldn't be for you.
It was weird for me.
I'll say it's something I'venever thought about in my life.
And this giant wolf is there.
And he's fixing me with thisstare.
And I've been around animals mywhole life.
We've had cats and dogs andthings.
Animals will sometimes get alook at you where it feels like

(55:01):
whoever moves first, they'regoing to move.
Like they're going to attackyou.
I've had I've seen this before.
Even my house cat now willsometimes just get kind of a
wild look in his eyes and dothis thing.
And that's like a familiarthing.
And that's how I felt.
He was poised and like ready tomove.
And it felt I froze.
I had my arms up in the air.

(55:22):
They were above, you know, by mychest and I just didn't move.
And I knew, I'm like, the secondI move, he's gonna launch
forward.
I

SPEAKER_01 (55:30):
just had this feeling.
And the door was ajar in yourdream.

SPEAKER_03 (55:32):
And the door was ajar.
Like, he's gonna come for me.
And I stopped.
And you know, it's like, oh,time slows down.
I think to myself, do I run upthe stairs?
Or like, what do I do?
Do I run into the room?
And I just made a decision.
I'm just gonna have to run upthe stairs.
There's nothing I can do.
And I took a breath.

(55:53):
and I started to turn to myright.
I moved my left arm to the rightbecause I was turning my upper
body to turn around and go upthe stairs.
And in an instant, the wolfburst through the door and there
was a couch along the wall,jumps on the couch and sinks its
teeth into my left forearm.
Because I had brought it up toturn and I felt the bone crunch.

SPEAKER_01 (56:18):
And this pain.

SPEAKER_03 (56:20):
And I woke up screaming.
Suddenly I was sitting in my bedin pitch black, like sitting
straight up, screaming andcovered in sweat.

SPEAKER_01 (56:28):
Oh my God.

SPEAKER_03 (56:29):
Oh

SPEAKER_01 (56:30):
my God.
Obviously that stuck with youfor all these years.

SPEAKER_03 (56:33):
It was so, so real.
And it was the moment by momentthoughts are still in my head.
I know what I thought everysecond of this encounter.

SPEAKER_01 (56:44):
I would like to do some research on wolves because
remember they were reintroducedor introduced illegally.
Yeah.
up in the Pacific Northwest, andthen people were allowed to kill
certain amounts of them orweren't.
You

SPEAKER_03 (56:58):
got like$100 a wolf you killed.
There were billboards, at leastin Idaho.
And I don't remember thespecific rules, the

SPEAKER_01 (57:05):
laws in history.
I just know there was somethingabout the wolves.
But some people would

SPEAKER_03 (57:08):
hunt them because you could get paid per wolf
killed to thin the amount ofwolves there.

SPEAKER_01 (57:14):
So I would like to know, like the historical
significance and also spiritualsignificance of wolves as spirit
animals or anything else to dowith wolves, because maybe there
was some communication, someletting you know there was
danger.
You know, I'd just really liketo know the significance of

(57:35):
wolves coming to you in a dream.
So real.

SPEAKER_03 (57:37):
So real.

SPEAKER_01 (57:38):
So real.

SPEAKER_03 (57:39):
I think in some way, this thread that I've been
talking with this, like,connection to a place, I
sometimes wonder if this spirit,or whatever it is, was connected
to the land.
Not the house.
There's a reason I feel like thewolf came from outside, inside.

SPEAKER_01 (57:56):
Which is a little

SPEAKER_03 (57:57):
bit different than some of our other experiences,
which were very location-basedin the house.

SPEAKER_01 (58:02):
Things

SPEAKER_03 (58:02):
happened kind of related to locations where
events occurred, and we can getto that.
And so, I felt that this wasdifferent.
To me, it struck me as I don't,again, we kind of lack the
vocabulary.
I felt like this place had moresupernatural phenomena than
other places.
It was kind of a place wheremore things were able to

(58:25):
manifest.
And because of that, I believe Ihad this experience.
And I think in some way, it wasseparate but somewhat related to
what was going on in the house.
But it didn't feel like amanifestation of the same things
that were occurring.

SPEAKER_01 (58:38):
Or vice versa.
What if Jan...
did these murders and hurthimself, and the fights happened
because of the location.
That's my theory.
Maybe it drove him to do thingshe wouldn't have normally done.
And I'm going to lead into whatI know where you're going.
So while this neighborhood wasone of the premier fancy

(59:03):
neighborhoods in Spokane, peopleknow this neighborhood,
Northwood.
I don't even remember.
Is that what it was called?

SPEAKER_03 (59:08):
There were these big mansions up on the hill above
us, even bigger than the housewe were in.

SPEAKER_01 (59:12):
And it's funny because comparison, it's
certainly not a mansion.
It's just a beautiful, nicehouse up on this mountaintop.
But I'm known for everywhere welive, I drive back roads.
You know, as a kid, everywherewe would move, the first thing I
would do is start exploring backroads.
I like to know how the gridsconnect, how roads connect, and

(59:35):
different ways to get differentplaces.
I don't just stick with the mainroad.
And so the main road would havebeen Argonne and the freeway.
But I discovered the back roadleading out of our neighborhood,
and I found all the back roadsto get to your high school once
you moved over to Gonzaga andyou were in high school downtown
Spokane.

UNKNOWN (59:55):
Wow.

SPEAKER_01 (59:55):
And so I would drive this back road frequently with
your baby sisters.
And there was that really dippyarea that dipped down that would
freeze in the winter.
And we had to be really carefulor you couldn't get back out
where all that creepy stuffhappened.
But then you'd end up throughreally kind of a crappy part of
town.

SPEAKER_03 (01:00:15):
It's the part they made fun of.
Yes.
People in Spokane make fun ofthis neighborhood for being kind
of the worst neighborhood

SPEAKER_01 (01:00:20):
in town.
Right.
But we would drive through here.
And I remember when I talkabout...
What happened with me getting intouch with Brittany, the medium
about Jan and everything thathappened in the house, I was
literally driving that back roadto come pick you up from high
school.
And I pulled over at that PandaExpress right outside of that

(01:00:43):
crappiest part of town when Iheard my phone ding and got the
message from her.
So this area around the house,the the park area.
was strange the roads werestrange do you remember that
abandoned house off to the sideum right at the top of the
mountain that we would look atall the time it was very spooky

(01:01:06):
and it wasn't abandoned for awhile we watched people moving
out and then the weird door wehave pictures of the weird door
on the side of the mountain

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:13):
there were so many strange things and so yeah it
was i think it was columbia ohis that the name of the road
okay and You would, we were inthis community that was on the
hill.
On the side of the hill and kindof down in the base was another
housing community.
And that's part of the storybecause that's where the other
house

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:34):
where Jan's

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:35):
girlfriend lived.

SPEAKER_01 (01:01:36):
Where she moved out and went

SPEAKER_03 (01:01:37):
to.
So this road, Columbia, ranwestward out of this
neighborhood.
And the first thing you wouldsee was the housing development
that was around us would stop.
And then there was this kind ofcreepy...
I'm gonna say shack.
It's maybe unfair, but likesomebody lived there, but it was
a very rundown, very scaryhouse.

(01:01:59):
And then the road went throughan area of forest.
It was outside of, it was in themiddle of the city, but there
was this area that wasn'tdeveloped and there's kind of
like an electrical station inthere.
So it just kind of felt like youwere outside of town for a
little while.
When you got to the end of theroad, you went down a small hill
And this is another thing, Idon't know what it was, but

(01:02:21):
there was this strange door.
This massive iron door builtinto the side of the hill.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:27):
think I have a picture of Grandma and Ruby
looking at it.
We do have a picture.
Somewhere.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:31):
And, you know, I don't know the significance of
the door, but definitely it'skind of a spooky thing.
And then there's thisneighborhood.
But I think in describing thethings I saw in this area, the
first major part was all aroundthe neighborhood there are these
flocks of magpies.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:45):
Magpies! Oh my god.
And

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:48):
I have...
Never really been conscious ofthem before.
But when I, I want to stress, Ithink there were hundreds.

SPEAKER_01 (01:02:56):
Oh yeah, all the time.

SPEAKER_03 (01:02:57):
This wasn't like, you know, you see one wild bird
here or something.
I mean, just massive flux.
You could wake up and the entirelike lawn or an area could just
be covered in these birds andthey're quite large.
But the reason is really spooky.

SPEAKER_01 (01:03:15):
Which I didn't know until we looked it up.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:18):
Well, first thing was we, so we go down this road
almost every day.
And what's strange is that everyday something on the road would
change.
The first example that I thinkis a little less spooky, but
setting the stage.
For example, one day there's acar there.
You drive back and forth.
Well, the next day you go.
Like an abandoned car.

(01:03:38):
Like an abandoned car, at leastparked on the side of the road.
A few days later, you get up anddrive and the tires are gone.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:44):
The

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:44):
next day you go, the doors are gone.
Then the windows are smashed.

SPEAKER_02 (01:03:48):
Then there's pieces.

SPEAKER_03 (01:03:49):
Then there's just debris.
And then nothing.
And then one day there was a bigTV put out there.
And slowly it degrades day byday.
And you say, oh, it's vandalismor something.
But the strange thing was therewere always animal carcasses on
this road.
Big ones.
I'm very large, like deer orelk.

(01:04:11):
And it's not uncommon up here tomaybe hit those animals with
your car.
So I think very initially youcould go, maybe this was an
accident, but no.
Imagine this animal.
You see this body lying on theside of the road, which could be
an accident, okay?
But then the next day, I'll say,different parts of its body were

(01:04:31):
strewn about different

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:32):
areas.
The animals were dragging itabout.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:34):
There would be a head here.
You'd see a rib cage over there.
You'd see something else.
And the thousands of magpies.
And the magpies would just befeasting on everything.
It really felt like piles.

SPEAKER_01 (01:04:45):
Which I didn't know magpies were carnivorous.
Until then.

SPEAKER_03 (01:04:50):
But this show wasn't just once.
This was years.
And sometimes multiple deadanimals in this spot.
And while you could say.
All these animals just ended uphere.
We don't know how.
And they're being strewn aboutby animals.
I felt like sometimes.
I don't know if it was animals.
They were torn apart

SPEAKER_02 (01:05:10):
and moved around.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:11):
There were like.
Pieces of bone and flesh movedaround in very strange ways and
every day completely differentconfigurations.
It was graphic sometimes.
It was.
And the sheer over time quantityof animals that died, large
animals, and then effectivelymutilated corpses along this

(01:05:34):
road.
To me, that was terrifying.
I thought that was so strange.
And the fact was, I think thenumber of magpies in the
neighborhood had grown to analarming

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:46):
amount.
And you would hear them.
And it would be loud.
It was a scary sound in thesilence.
And I think it's because

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:50):
there was so much food.

SPEAKER_01 (01:05:51):
So much to eat.

SPEAKER_03 (01:05:52):
There was no reason I think the population should
have gotten that big.
But that also, to me, confirmsjust how unusual and strange all
of these animal deaths andmutilations were.
That's so weird.
It

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:05):
just compounded.
It added to the creepiness ofeverything around there.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:10):
I think to this day, what I really feel is that that
is the other area.
You could say that was theactivity of someone or people.
To me, that stretch of road feltabsolutely terrible.
Well, I don't believe in

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:26):
portals and words like you said.
That is an interesting place.
It was a negative place.

SPEAKER_03 (01:06:32):
It was a place that felt They said there were more
supernatural things thathappened.
There were more disturbingthings that happened.
In this neighborhood, there wasjust something that made it very
different from what I would saya normal place would be.
And it was like that bedroom.

SPEAKER_01 (01:06:48):
It was really scary one day when I was on my way to
get you.
And I think I was running alittle late.
And I don't remember why it wasso urgent that I changed your
sister's diaper.
But something happened in thecar where it was like one of
those where I've got to help herright now.

SPEAKER_02 (01:07:02):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:07:03):
I had to pull over and get out of the car, unbuckle
her, take her to the back of thecar, put the trunk down, change
her diaper in the back of theSUV.
And I felt like I was beingwatched and I was on a time
clock the whole time.
I have never changed a diaper sofast in my life and put a baby

(01:07:24):
back in a car seat.
I was so exposed feeling that.
standing there on the side ofthe road.
No cars drive by.
It's very isolated, yet it's awell-traveled road.
It was awful.
And I remember that day changingher diaper and no cell service.
I couldn't have called if Ineeded anything.
It was horrible.

SPEAKER_03 (01:07:45):
It felt like a location cut off from time.
Cut off from the city.
Cut off from everything.
And within this space, thingswere just not right.
But I feel that either that areaextended to the neighborhood
where our house was built, orthat whatever was in this
neighborhood leaked on...

(01:08:05):
Had tendrils.
Yeah, had extended itself

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:08):
further.
I'm picturing Stranger Thingsright now.
It

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:13):
was a feeling like that.
And one thing I told Sarah theother day when I was telling her
this part of the story, I didn'trealize I hadn't, was that when
I went to visit Alex at his lakehouse a few years ago, and...
Wyatt and Alex, these are two ofmy friends from high school.
They picked me up at the airportand we took a drive by the

(01:08:34):
house.
They wanted to just look at

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:35):
it.
They wanted to go to our oldhouse?

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:37):
They just wanted to look at it after the story and
everything.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:39):
Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:39):
All these years later.

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:40):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:41):
So all we did was pull up to the road.
Someone was obviously

SPEAKER_01 (01:08:44):
living there.
Did you take the back

SPEAKER_03 (01:08:45):
road?
And we turned around and then wedid.
But I had the most sickeningfeeling because when we took the
back road, they had built awhole new housing development
where that shack was at the edgeof the thing it had extended
into this area.
And I just had this sense ofdread because I'm like, it
sounds crazy, but it just feltlike this tainted land.

(01:09:07):
and the fact that new familieswould be moving into these
homes.
There's a famous Lovecraft storycalled The Color Out of Space.
And in this story, this strangemeteorite falls on a farm.
And this is in like the 1920s.
These professors drive out fromthe university to come
investigate it.
They can't identify thematerial.
They can't identify anything.
And it like just kind of everyday, it just kind of burns

(01:09:30):
itself out until it's gone,right?
But the farmer's like farm islike tainted.
This thing has seeped into theground.
The crops start dying.
His cows start dying.

SPEAKER_02 (01:09:41):
His

SPEAKER_03 (01:09:42):
family members start going insane.
And it seeps into the well onhis house.
And his family is drinking thewater.
His family members are goingcrazy and changing so much that
his son throws himself in thewell.
He has to lock his wife and hisother son up in rooms in the
attic because they've gonecompletely mad.
And these other people arewatching his farm slowly.

(01:10:04):
And then the big reveal at theend of this book is that the man
telling you the story is asurveyor.
They're gonna build a dam andflood this valley to provide
drinking water for the city.
And he's there interviewingpeople in the future.
And he's met a man who was bestfriends with the guy who's farm
and he's listening to the story.

(01:10:25):
And he's like, I guess I'll benever drinking the city water.

SPEAKER_02 (01:10:28):
And I got goosebumps right now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:33):
But this is a favorite story of mine, but I
feel like it really reflectswhat I felt.
This idea that they're going to,you know, things are always
expanding, always building, andthey're going to move on to this
location that has this somethingthat's

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:47):
not right.

SPEAKER_03 (01:10:48):
And people are going to be living there in their
experiences.
And

SPEAKER_01 (01:10:53):
anyway.
Oh, I guess I didn't realize youguys drove back there.
I look at it sometimes online,you know, like Google pictures.
It's just a house.
It's literally just a house, butit was a life changing
experience for us.
So we've, we've done a lot ofbackground.
I think we should.
And you know what you made me, Igot to make a note because I'm
going to make a little note herefor one of our listeners,

(01:11:16):
Gloria.
I want to make sure that I getback to this.
We need to do another episodewhere we talk about what
happened with the undercover FBIand you guys staying in that
cabin.
So we need to make a side noteof that.
We got to do that

SPEAKER_02 (01:11:32):
story.

SPEAKER_01 (01:11:33):
So that's for the Gloria.
I'm going to make a note and I'mgoing to come back to that.
But so if you have not listenedto one of my very first episodes
about trauma and awakeningspiritual gifts, you have to go
back and listen to it becauseeverything that Sam and I are
talking about today starts therewith this house we lived in in

(01:11:54):
Spokane.
And I don't want to give awaytoo much details, but you're
going to get it all there.
Like this will be all spoilers.
So you should listen to thatone.
And the follow up to that one iswhen I interview a medium named
Brittany, who came in and cameinto that house at that time and
helped me with some of the stuffgoing on there.

(01:12:15):
What we've and I interviewed herseven years after it happened.
And it was great to get herperspective.
But this is the first time we'regoing to get Sam's perspective.
But go back and listen to those.
If you haven't, we'll be herewhen you get back.

SPEAKER_03 (01:12:30):
All right.
This is something off therecord.
Yeah.
We took a little break.
I don't know if it's somethingyou'd ever want to speak about
on your podcast.
Okay.
But I thought it's strange whenwe talk about the master bedroom
that the whole thing with Danended in violence.

(01:12:50):
And this kind of the incidentwith Jan at this house.
in this kind of place and a kindof like a violent man and
someone, it kind of bringing-Snapping.
Someone snapping and doingsomething just insane.
And again, it's like, yeah, I'mlike, on one hand, I'm like,

(01:13:12):
what Dan did is inexcusable.
So I never want to likeattribute, but I guess I'm
saying it feels weird.
It almost feels like TheShining.
Yes.
In some way.

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:21):
Yeah.
But,

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:21):
like, this person maybe already had the potential.
Right.
And this pushed them.
But it's also, this is in thisweird place and all these
things.
And then they snap and becomeviolent.
Murderous, even.
Like Jan was.
And, I mean, Dan certainly mademe feel that way that

SPEAKER_02 (01:13:34):
night.
Oh,

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:35):
my God.
I thought I was going to die.
I thought I was going to die.
When you talk about humans beingscarier, that was the scariest
night of my life.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:42):
Well, you can...
You can do a little side note ofthat.
The only bad thing that mightcome of that is somebody like
Lloyd Auerbach would say maybeI'm attracting it.
But I'm not now.

SPEAKER_03 (01:13:54):
But also, I'm like, the chance thing was before you
were there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:13:57):
That's true.
Oh, that's true.
But I was attracted to thehouse.
But it led to my gifts.
Yeah, but that's a good point.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:03):
I also say that living in the house is some of
the worst time with your andDad's marriage.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:08):
God, and I say that publicly.
Everybody knows that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:10):
And so...
Just a train of thought I'vehad.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:14):
Yeah, well you can bring it up.
Okay, let me crunch.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:18):
Need some water for sure.

SPEAKER_02 (01:14:19):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:14:22):
But I think we should say everything about the
story in the house and then I'llsay this kind of like my thesis
is like there's this place andit can be connected to things
that happened.

SPEAKER_01 (01:14:36):
So hopefully you've gone back and listened to the
other episodes of so you knowwhat is going on in this house.
But in a nutshell, to help Samget started with his perception,
basically we were moving fromIdaho to Spokane and we were
renting and instantly I wantedthis house that we found on

(01:14:58):
Craigslist.
And so we rented it, we movedin, everything started going to
crap in our lives, marriage wasterrible, kids weren't sleeping,
like I'm really nutshell-ing ithere because you've probably
already heard it twice.
come to find out this is when Ibecame aware of my mediumship
through another medium who cameover.
And what we discovered is thatthe man who owned the house was

(01:15:24):
living there with his girlfriendand her twin boys.
And the story I heard from theprincipal of the school where my
daughter was going is that oneof the twin boys was autistic.
And her words were that it was abone of contention in the
relationship.
So the relationship got violent.
The woman and her boys moved outand moved down the road.

(01:15:46):
And when Sam was talking aboutthis neighborhood that you had
to go through that was related,she went and lived just down the
road with her boys.
Well, one day the owner, Jan,the owner, Jan went and, um,
well, he snapped and he went andto her condo and he killed her.

(01:16:07):
And apparently he wanted to killthe autistic boy, but he killed
the other boy instead, whichhorribly left the autistic boy
with no brother and no mother.
But then he came home to ourhouse and killed himself.
So that's the nutshell.
If you want all the details,please do listen to the other
ones.
But that's what's basicallywe're talking about here.

(01:16:28):
And I've given my perception alot of times and Sam has never
been able to on record, give hisperception.
And I really want him to touchon also that we have friends in
the community.
He went to a Catholic highschool.
His friends were friends with apriest in town that was a pretty

(01:16:49):
well-known priest.
He's going to talk about this.
And apparently other people knewabout our house.
And when I called asking forhelp, nobody would help us.
So Sam's got some perspective onthis.
So start asking.
wherever you want.
I don't know if you want tostart the night we found out
when I came to pick you up fromschool or if you want to start
with other creepy details.
You take it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:09):
Yeah, I think ultimately I had your experience
downstairs on the couch that youtold me about.
Oh, with the baby.
With the baby.
And there had been weird thingsin the house.
There had been my dream.
There had been that road.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:23):
The relationship.
Me and dad were fightingconstantly.
And that

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:25):
was a big part.

SPEAKER_01 (01:17:26):
Ruby not sleeping.

SPEAKER_03 (01:17:27):
Everything was just becoming very difficult.
And I think and there were a lotof strange things going on.
But again, we hadn't attributedthem together.
But then there's this, the daythat's talked about in the other
podcast where the neighbor kindof revealed that there was
something going on and you gotmore information.
And I think that while we'vegone over all of that, the

(01:17:49):
interesting part was that wefelt like we needed to do
something because ultimately Ihad to finish high school and I
only had a little bit of timeleft and then we were going to
move.
But we had to find a way tosurvive.
So one thing, one solution waswe asked the high school if they
could do anything or if I couldtake my finals early.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:08):
Can I interrupt you real quick?

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:09):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:18:10):
I just want to go back in time a little bit to, do
you, and don't forget where youwere.
Yeah.
Do you remember the night, okay,so we found out one afternoon,
one evening.
I made you all sleep in my room.
Yeah.
I talk about that.
And then that's, The nextmorning when I said to you,
you're not going to school,you've got to watch your

(01:18:32):
sisters.
I've got to go talk to theprincipal at the school because
something spiritually had toldme go talk to the principal.
How do you remember feeling thatnight when I first told you?
I remember showing you my phonebecause we were in the car with
the babies.
The neighbor was driving us andI didn't want to say, oh my God,
we're living in a murder house.
So I think I handed you my phonewhere I had texted it to dad and

(01:18:54):
let you read it.
Do you remember that?

SPEAKER_03 (01:18:56):
So, yeah.
And to be honest, when I readthat, I was really confused.
Okay.
I mean, because that day, youalways picked me up from high
school.
I didn't drive.
Well, I stood outside for whatfelt like ever.
Everyone had gone home.
Yeah, I was late.
And I couldn't get a hold ofyou.
So I was...
Your phone was dead.
My phone was dead.
I was just, I was reallyconfused.

(01:19:16):
And to me, it was a regular day.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:18):
And then I come pulling up in a van that's not
ours with a lady.
You come pulling up in thisstrange thing and

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:21):
you call me over and I get in the car and then you
show me a message and it didn'tmake any sense to me.
Like at this point, I was, youknow, confused.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:30):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:31):
I don't remember like exactly the following
minutes.

SPEAKER_02 (01:19:34):
Sure.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:35):
But we eventually were like, okay, yeah, this
thing happens or something'swrong, something's scary.
We went to your friend's house.

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:44):
We did that night.
We went to Angela's house.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:46):
And I think we ate there and we sat there for a
little while and we weredeciding, should we stay with
them?

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:50):
They offered us to stay downstairs.
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:19:53):
And I think you ultimately decided that we were
going to go back home.
And I remember.
I

SPEAKER_01 (01:19:57):
did because the babies slept better in their
beds and I didn't want todisrupt them, even though I was
in such a terrible state.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:06):
So I think ultimately at this time, if I'm
going to be honest, I didn'tknow how to feel.

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:11):
Okay, that's fair.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:13):
On one hand, I thought it was really scary.
On the other, I was just like,what are we going to do?
It just kind of felt like, Idon't know, I froze.
Because I didn't know what theright thing to do was.
And again, I'm almost done withhigh school.
I think

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:29):
you have like six or eight weeks left.

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:31):
And I have to do these final exams.
It was like, I didn't know whatwe were going to do.
And I felt, at the time, I'mlike, we can't go back.
Yeah.
Back to the house.
I was like certain that we weregoing to have to figure
something else out because itjust seemed like too much.
But yeah, ultimately we had togo back and we had to stay and

(01:20:51):
start doing it.
And I mean like living there

SPEAKER_01 (01:20:54):
again.
And packing to move.
And

SPEAKER_03 (01:20:55):
packing.
And I just felt to some extentlike that's what I was saying a
second ago.
But we were trying to find othersolutions because it wasn't nice
just being there

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:06):
again.
It was horrible.

SPEAKER_03 (01:21:08):
And I...
I think I want to just, I knowit's been mentioned before, the
baby monitor story because thishas been, I felt, before seeing
the mannequin thing lately, wasthe most I've ever seen in terms
of activity, like obvious.
So from my perspective, my momand I were sitting downstairs

(01:21:28):
and we looked at the babymonitor and saw that my sister
had woken up and we were goingto leave.
So I walked upstairs and...
grabbed her, walked downstairs.
And then I'm certain, I think wejust like put on our shoes and
walked out the front door.
Like it was very mundane.
We were going to go to dinner.
And so we ate and then we cameback.
And when we came back, I thinkwe were like getting settled and

(01:21:51):
I pick up or one of us picked upthe baby monitor and the camera
view was completely different.

SPEAKER_02 (01:21:56):
It was looking at the ceiling and it had been
pointed at the crib.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:00):
And I went upstairs to try to figure out what was
going on.
And I, and I'll swear to anyoneon here, There was no way this
could have been an accident.
It's hard to describe verbally.
You've

SPEAKER_01 (01:22:13):
drawn diagrams, yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:22:16):
But the cord for the baby, the baby monitor was
mounted high on the wall and ithad a cord and everyone says,
well, maybe you just bumped thecord.
Well, it couldn't have beenbecause the baby monitor could
swivel in a circle.
And when it was pointeddownward, the cord was at the
bottom.
But when it was pointed at theceiling, the cord was coming up

(01:22:39):
from the top and then down.
My point being that when it wasfacing down, if you tugged on
the cord, well, it's already onthe bottom of the camera.
It won't turn.
Someone would have had to turnit.
And then now the cord's goingthe opposite direction.
So there was no way that thiscould have moved by pulling the
cord.
It would have had to be turnedmanually.
And it was high up on the wall,like by where I'm in.

(01:23:01):
I didn't do it.
And I walked in.
Walked out the door, walked backin the door and it was changed.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:07):
Do you remember we had dad called the police that
night?

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:09):
So we called the police because

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:10):
dad was not living with us.
He moved out.
He had to go take that job inCalifornia.
So it was just us, me and all ofyou kids.
And I knew that cops always lookat ladies like they're crazy.
And dad, having been a cop, Iwas like, you need to call the
police and have them come searchthis house.
And the cops came and theysearched the basement, they
searched the house, and theyfound nothing.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:31):
They didn't find anything.
There was no sign that someonehad entered the home.
And they checked every area sothere was nobody in there

SPEAKER_02 (01:23:38):
to

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:39):
assure us.
There's no reason someone wouldhave broken into a home and
turned a baby monitor and thenleft.
So in my mind, that was...
absolutely definitive proof thatsomething happened.
I think it was a supernaturaloccurrence.
I also go, there was the babymonitor photo.

SPEAKER_01 (01:23:56):
Which we have.
Which we could post, if youremind me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:23:59):
We could post.

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:00):
We'll post that of Eden in her crib and the other
baby on the floor next to her.

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:06):
So, yeah, there was something anomalous in a photo
taken from that baby monitor

SPEAKER_01 (01:24:12):
and that was the boys room the twin boys that was
their room yeah and that's whereeden slept and i know that that
baby was curled up on the floornext to her

SPEAKER_03 (01:24:20):
So in my mind, having already had that photo
too, it was very clear.
And so to this day, I've oftentalked that I think that a lot
of things you see in paranormalinvestigations are very minimal.
Maybe it's just like energy,like turning on a REM pod or
something like that.
And I still think those thingsare impressive, but I've always
been a little skeptical aboutthings moving because to me, in

(01:24:42):
all my experiences, I'd onlyseen it once with the baby
monitor.
And I guess I'd always thoughtmaybe it just takes a lot of
energy or it's hard for them todo um but this is the one case
that i felt was two if i was toever tell someone who's a
skeptic i would say this storyis what i feel like is the
absolute proof i've had a lot ofexperiences but there was

(01:25:03):
nothing that i could there's noexplanation

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:05):
no and in that case you'd have to recreate it mount
that on the mall on the wall andhave someone who's skeptical say
show me how that happened withthe way the cord is mounted on
there

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:17):
and not that you convince anyone i think my point
is just that when i'm speakingif someone was to ask me oh
you've had all the experiencebut like what really makes you
believe and i'm like well that

SPEAKER_02 (01:25:29):
yeah

SPEAKER_03 (01:25:29):
to me i could if i wanted write off everything else
sure that to me was definitiveum But I obviously don't feel
that way.
No.
And when we put it all together,it tells a story.
And I think it tells a veryclear story.
And I think it's important tolook at the thing as a whole.

SPEAKER_01 (01:25:46):
Well, you know, I'm going to sidetrack here for a
second, too, because youmentioned the thing with the
baby.
And I just thought of somethingelse that I did talk about in
the other podcast.
But your opinion here.
Do you remember that baby Eden?
who was sleeping in the roomthat was the boys' room.
So not the one where the monitormoved, just for our listeners.

(01:26:10):
Eden would sleep all night, 12hours.
She would never cry.
She just was the perfectsleeper.
And then towards the end, rightafter dad moved out, moved to
California, she startedscreaming in the night.
And when we asked her what waswrong, she said, something's
trying to eat me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:26:28):
I remember that.

SPEAKER_01 (01:26:29):
It shifted so much.
She literally said, something'strying to eat me.
And I thought that was a verystrange and interesting thing to
say, especially from somebodywho had been sleeping perfectly.
And then the thing with babyWilla, when I brought her home
from the hospital and I wassleeping downstairs with her
that you touched on, I've alwayssaid I don't believe in the word

(01:26:52):
possession.
But if I was ever going toimagine...
what a possession might feellike.
That is how I felt that nightlaying there with her.
So if you want to, as thelisteners, hear more about this
and know what I'm talking about,please go back to the first
episode, Trauma and Awakening,Spiritual Gifts.
But the energy shifted and didfeel dangerous and scary.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:15):
Honestly, your experience down there on the
couch is, to me, one of thescariest stories I've ever been

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:20):
told.
It was the scariest thing I'veever lived through.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:21):
Ever.
Through everything, even...
you know, this thing about themannequin and all this, I've
never felt like really like Ithought anything was like that
scary or like that crazy.
But to me, that story is theonly time I've ever doubted or
just had this feeling of like,maybe there is something that
could be really terrible.
Yeah, maybe we should becareful.

(01:27:43):
I think that's the only time Ithought that because it's truly
a terrifying story and it'sscary for you when I heard it.
So I don't have much to say onthat.

SPEAKER_01 (01:27:52):
No, no, no, because you weren't there, but...
God, that was awful.

SPEAKER_03 (01:27:56):
So I also want to say that the point where the man
took his own life in the garagewas actually right below those
bedrooms.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:07):
Exactly

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:07):
below.
So where the incident with Edenfeeling scared in her room and
then into the baby monitor werein a way within feet of where
the...
I mean, just the distancebetween a floor, you know?
Mm-hmm.
And so I have no doubt that insome ways those things were
influenced by an event happeningso close.

(01:28:29):
And definitely the location.
So kind of what I'm saying, andit's hard to articulate here,
but I also feel that the spiritof Jan, the man who did those
things, I think is differentthan some of the other
experiences we had.
I do too.
And I think there were twothings going on.
I think your experience on thecouch, I don't believe that was

(01:28:49):
connected to Jan.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:50):
I don't think it was Jan.
But I do think

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:52):
that Eden and Willis' experiences upstairs
were.

SPEAKER_01 (01:28:54):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:28:55):
Or the photo of the child in the bed.
Yeah.
And then later when we weremoving out of the house and we
were just about to pack up, aball came bouncing out of the
garage from that exact place allby itself.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:07):
Yep.
In the garage.

SPEAKER_03 (01:29:09):
And all of those things, too, are tied to kind of
a specific location in thehouse, which was that section of
the garage and the floor aboveit where some of these other
events occurred.
in other parts of the house.
And I think that there wassomething different there.

SPEAKER_01 (01:29:23):
Well, Brittany felt that.
When she came to investigate,she felt that there were spirits
in the furnace room and a littlegirl spirit in your bedroom and
just some transient spiritactivity in the entire house,
separate of Jan, 100%.

(01:29:43):
And then...
I think she does feel like you,that there is just something
weird about the land, theneighborhood, the area, for
sure.
So then touching back on when itwas so fresh and new, before I
had gotten ahold of Brittany tohelp me through this, I was

(01:30:04):
desperate.
Just like you were saying, I didnot know what to do.
I didn't know if it was safe tolive in this house.
I didn't know anything aboutspirits.
I didn't believe in mediumsreally.
So I just felt so lost and outof control and home alone with a
bunch of children.
I didn't have family.
I didn't have friends really.
I didn't have anything.
So I joke that I know I calledyour school and, or emailed and

(01:30:29):
was basically like, Hey, YouCatholic people help people on
TV with stuff like this.
I need some help.
And I remember emailing yourteacher or your counselor, your
guidance counselor, saying, Idon't think Sam can finish his
finals.
You're going to have to come upwith another way.
We've got to get out of thishouse.
And they laughed at me.
They

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:49):
laughed at you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:30:49):
They laughed at me.

SPEAKER_03 (01:30:50):
So this is, I was talking about this with Sarah,
and I'll go through the storywith my friend Dutch as well.
So we had the incident.
We talked to this school.
Right before we moved, it wasactually right after my
graduation.
We left immediately after, sothe day

SPEAKER_02 (01:31:06):
after.
Yeah, the next day.

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:07):
So the night of my graduation, the day before we
moved, I was with my friendDutch, who was one of my best
friends in high school, and hisfamily owned a restaurant in
town.
They threw a graduation partyfor him, but they also kind of
threw it for me.
They included me in it, and itwas a really nice thing.
Well, they had invited their...

(01:31:28):
the priest that they, you know,I guess...

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:31):
In the community.
In

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:31):
the community, that they knew his name was Father
Joseph.
And he came over and at the endof the night, we're standing
outside and...
duchess little sister said samyou should tell father joseph
about your story and i was likei was a little hesitant because
honestly i've been telling it alot i it had been this crazy
series

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:51):
because it was very real for us very real story it
was our lives and it wastraumatic

SPEAKER_03 (01:31:56):
and and

SPEAKER_01 (01:31:57):
yeah it was hard for like eight weeks all by
ourselves

SPEAKER_03 (01:32:01):
but i felt in a way you know at the time i was kind
of put on the spot so i was likeokay and i went through
everything and that time wasvery fresh so i had all the
details in my mind and the wholething.
And I remember the priest kindof looks at me and goes, oh,
but, you know, like, I don'tknow, like, Sam's family,
they're probably, like, I don'tknow if he said, like, they

(01:32:23):
have, like, a good heart orthey're, like, strong or
something.
Just kind of passed it off like,oh, but, like, you know, I'm
sure you'll do okay.
And, you know, and this thing.
Well, a year later, my friendDutch's family flew me out to
come visit.
after I had been gone.
And I went to church with thembecause I was staying there over

(01:32:45):
a Sunday.
And Father Joseph was thepriest.
And as we left, he said, hi.
And I said, hi.
And we walk out to the car.
But then Dutch and his sistersay, oh my gosh, we were talking
to Father Joseph later.
And he said, actually, when youtold him that story, he was so
scared.
He didn't want, like, hewouldn't go.
He's like, he didn't want to sayanything or anything.

(01:33:08):
or address it because it was toofrightening.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:11):
Had he heard it in the news?
Was he already aware of it likesome of our mom playgroup friend
people?
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:17):
can't speak to

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:19):
either way.
That didn't come up.
I knew a lot of

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:21):
people knew.
When I told

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:23):
the story,

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:25):
he was too scared.
He told them he could have nevergone to the house.
It was too much.
Wow.
That's crazy.
He thought that that was one ofthe most extreme stories he'd
ever heard and he couldn'thandle it.
Well, you know, we've talkedabout this story and I was
talking to Sarah the other nightafter the incident with the
mannequin.

(01:33:45):
And she's like, I would havecomplained.
Like, they have an obligation.
Let

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:49):
our listeners know, Sarah is Catholic, has been
Catholic her whole

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:54):
life.

SPEAKER_01 (01:33:54):
And she comes from the Pacific Northwest where that
is...
Common.

SPEAKER_03 (01:33:58):
So, yeah.
So, so my wife is Catholic andshe was explaining to me, she's
like, they have an obligation tohelp with these things.
And like 99% of priests are notlike trained, but they do have
people who are trained

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:14):
to

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:15):
deal with this.
And like, that is part of therole they fulfill.
And that if something happens,they have an obligation to do an
investigation, right?

SPEAKER_02 (01:34:25):
I thought they

SPEAKER_03 (01:34:26):
do.
And she pulled up the, like the,the webpage or something to read
me how they handled theinvestigation and, and who's
supposed to be called.
And, and there's a, there's aprocedure because if you think
about it, the Catholic church isan institution.
It has procedures for how theydeal with certain things and,
and what they're, and the dutiesthey perform.

(01:34:48):
And she said, you know, evenmore than the individual priest,
Father Joseph.
She's like, when you called theschool, and I want to say that
my high school was a Catholichigh school who had Jesuit
priests who worked there andlived on the school grounds.
And at that point, the peopleshould have taken it seriously.
That

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:08):
really irritates me because I told them, I am a mom
alone with four children for thenext six or eight weeks with no
family, nobody to help me, andwe're living in this terrifying
situation and they laughed at me

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:23):
i will say the counselor was a jerk

SPEAKER_01 (01:35:25):
she was awful if i could find that email she was
awful to me

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:29):
so i think it's unfortunate i was talking more
with sarah about it and i guesswhat happened was It was very
normal for them to deal withthese things.
And then there's the kind ofpost, like, 1960s, people start
to not believe in thesupernatural, even Catholics.

SPEAKER_02 (01:35:45):
Okay.

SPEAKER_03 (01:35:45):
They stop believing in spirits or miracles or, like,
those things only happened inthe past.
Some people even tried torationalize, like, the miracle
stories in the Bible to say, oh,there was a scientific reason
why this happened.
And I guess in more recentyears, they've come out with
more publicationist stance thatno, these things are real and if

(01:36:07):
someone is a Catholic they needto acknowledge that in a way the
supernatural is real.
It is the official stance.
And I wonder if that is why somepeople, like you might speak to
someone who is a Catholic andworks at the institution but
laughs it off.
But the official stance, and atleast especially talking to a
priest, that would be consideredthat they didn't do their job.

(01:36:30):
But I could see why anindividual who's just an
employee is going to not pass italong or not take it seriously.

SPEAKER_01 (01:36:36):
Sure, but Father Joseph, right?

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:38):
Yeah.
On the other hand, we werealready leaving.

SPEAKER_01 (01:36:41):
Sure, but he probably could have had somebody
at least talk to us or counselus or help us.
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:47):
thought so.
You

SPEAKER_01 (01:36:48):
know, something looking back.

SPEAKER_03 (01:36:50):
Ideally, what I think...
So what it sounds like shouldhave happened is that when we
told the school, someone shouldhave talked to us and they do a
thorough investigation first.
Like they don't come in.
It's not like the movies wherethey come in and do anything
crazy, but they do research theincidents.
They talk to the people becausealso the thing is they take it
very seriously about peoplehaving mental health

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:11):
issues.
I was just going to say, theyprobably rule out mental

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:13):
health first.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:14):
Because they could

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:14):
help you.
And I think in the way that,especially with dad having been
a police officer and things, andespecially with the PI business,
a lot of people who experiencethese things might have had
mental health issues.
But I also think that, I mean,it is a professional system.
And I would have, I think at thetime, we would have appreciated
any help.

SPEAKER_01 (01:37:33):
Any validation.

SPEAKER_03 (01:37:34):
Any validation that what we were feeling was real,
even if it was a differentbelief system for how to deal
with it.
I think I would have appreciatedthe fact that there's people who
go, no, this is real.
What you're experiencing isvalid.
Being scared is valid or havinga difficult time.
I think that's what I neededbecause I feel like people in

(01:37:54):
the community either didn't wantto deal with it because they
were too scared.
They laughed it off or they feltlike it was an entertaining
story, but it was our lives atthe time.

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:03):
Yeah, the owner of the house that we were renting
was such a jerk.
When dad called him and I calledhim, he said...
I don't know what you're worriedabout.
I've given you a safe place tolive for the last few years.
Which prompted us, we learned,unlike some states, Washington
State, they are not required totell you that someone died in

(01:38:23):
the home or was murdered in thehome.
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:38:25):
think that's

SPEAKER_01 (01:38:25):
absurd.
Right.
So some states aren't required.
Some have a statute oflimitations.
Others just don't have to tellyou.
So that was pretty dismissiveand unfair.
And then I remember when I wouldreach out to some of the Mom
friends I had made through allthe baby groups we were in.
They were like, oh, my God,that's your house.
And they had been over there forparties and play groups and all

(01:38:47):
this stuff, but never made theconnection because listeners,
you can actually still look thisup in the newspaper.
Like right now, you can see aphoto of Jan.
This was a big newsworthy eventin the town.
So that's really weird news.
that, you know, to knoweverybody knew, people knew, but

(01:39:11):
wouldn't help, didn't want tohelp.
I mean, people don't know whatto do, to be fair.
I get

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:15):
it.

SPEAKER_01 (01:39:16):
But some comfort and validation would have been nice.

SPEAKER_03 (01:39:18):
I think we live in an interesting time.
And maybe this goes into whatwe're telling you about that
book we heard about.
But this kind of idea that onone hand, more than 50% of
Americans believe in thesupernatural, still.
But I think that there is not anunderstanding of of what it is

(01:39:38):
or how to approach it, I thinkwe're in this kind of, it's kind
of this middle ground.
Half the people you meetvehemently will tell you that
it's the most ridiculous thingthey've ever heard.
I think the other half willbelieve, but they have so many
different ideas and conditionsand all these things that it
becomes so muddied.

(01:39:59):
And I think a lot of people insituations and things just don't
know what to think.
And I often think that the firstpeople they encounter have all
their own preconceived notions.
And it's really difficult.
And I think that's why when wetalk, and I know that when you
do your talks, we really try totake a neutral stance or maybe

(01:40:20):
only speak from our ownexperiences or do qualifiers in
the statements we say.
Because I never want to say thatI know the answer or I know how
it works or these things work.
Nope.
I don't know if we'll ever fullyknow, but the best we can do is,
I do think you can respond toyour own situations.
I think you can keep an openmind, but I also think you still
need to be critical.

(01:40:40):
And I think ultimately that whatI'm saying is it's just, it is
difficult to find help and it'sdifficult to find help that you
can trust.

SPEAKER_01 (01:40:49):
Yes.

SPEAKER_03 (01:40:50):
And I think that that's why with what you do with
your mediumship and things, Ithink it's really good the way
you approach it.
If only so that people can kindof get an answer, an idea
without, kind of extra baggageand without an uncritical answer
or so on.
You're always trying to offerevidence.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:05):
Things like that.

SPEAKER_03 (01:41:08):
But it's just interesting how we approach
these topics.

SPEAKER_01 (01:41:14):
So looking back now, all these years out, what are
we, that was 2015, 10 years outfrom that traumatic event.
It is.
Yeah, I guess.
Oh, my gosh.
Like February, March would havebeen because I think dad got the
call for the new job onValentine's Day that year.
So I know he was gone within afew weeks of that 10 year

(01:41:38):
anniversary.
How do you think?
Because I know what I have saidrecently, and even in that big
talk I just gave in GreenValley, I know where I feel and
how I feel impacted.
by that and the positivetrajectory it put me on even
though it was so traumatic.
How do you feel?

SPEAKER_03 (01:41:58):
So I think that ultimately what I got was I was
very scared at the time and Idon't feel as scared of I guess
anything supernatural now.

SPEAKER_02 (01:42:09):
Me too.
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:42:10):
think ultimately when I see a lot of things that
can go that's very interestingyou know maybe sometimes it's
fun to feel a little spooky butI don't at the end of the day
feel anything serious not like Idid through all those years I
think I've come to this you knowuh very I don't know I'm sorry I
lost my words for a second butI've come to the conclusion I

(01:42:30):
feel that I don't think most ofthe time anything is that
serious maybe that's it Ibelieve that know you can have
crazy events happen you can haveall these things but i don't
think that there's an immediatesense of danger all the time or
that things are really difficultand i think that sometimes when
i watch like shows orinvestigations and they tell

(01:42:52):
people immediately that this isa dangerous situation it's
something that i really don'tlike and it's a pet peeve of
mine i think because i havelived through it so i feel like
i can say definitively then Ithink most of the time that is
not the case but I think thatwhen I'm thinking back to
situations like that road orthat bedroom I know there are
times where I have felt like agenuine fear and I think in that

(01:43:17):
I try not to I just would neverjump to that sure maybe if that
is something that I encounteredI would acknowledge it again and
I haven't since but I would justsay to anyone that I think that
is not something anyone shouldever jump to But I just don't
know everything.

SPEAKER_01 (01:43:36):
I agree 100%.
And I think you're sayingsimilarly how I realized through
all of this, that's when I cameto my very definitive conclusion
of sharing with people, I'm farmore afraid of the living than
the dead.
While scary things happened, Ithink it was to bring my
awareness to a new level and toevolve me into looking at things

(01:44:01):
a different way.
And I'm no longer afraid of Jan.
I don't excuse what he did.
We've talked about this.
I think he put me on this pathas a way of trying to get a
little bit of redemption forhim.
And I don't feel, like you said,in immediate danger.
And story for another day, Ithink I told you, I recently did

(01:44:26):
an investigation with our grouphere in town And when I went
into this one room that I didnot want to go in, I had
visceral, awful reactions.
I was scared.
I didn't want to go in it.
I came out.
We had a discussion about it.
And I felt fine.
And I was able to go back in andfinish the investigation.
So my explanation there is Ithink when we initially have

(01:44:46):
those feelings, it's to give usa message.
Then when we realize it andprocess it and talk about it and
figure out, oh, that's whatthey're trying to say, we no
longer have that scary feeling.
But people...
Side note, love to be scared.
It's exciting.
Paranormal investigations arefun when they're scary.

SPEAKER_02 (01:45:04):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:45:04):
So that's what sells.
And yeah, let's have fun withit.
But the lesson I think you and Iboth came out with is it can be
scary in the moment, but reallywe learned a lot from it.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:17):
I think so.
I think that ultimately myconclusion with it all is I
believe that if there was to besomething bad or negative
situation, The worst thing youcould do was be scared.
I feel like if we're going,let's make the assumption that
that's real.
Like for a second, if somethingcould prey upon you, it would

(01:45:39):
only be because it could scareyou.

SPEAKER_01 (01:45:42):
And by being scared, you're inviting it.
You're giving it power.

SPEAKER_03 (01:45:46):
In a way, I feel that it's like, it sounds funny.
It's like having a weak mind.
Like if you think about that,it's like you're allowing
yourself to be overcome.
And so it's, I think my ultimateapproach after that, if I was in
a house like Jan's house again,I think I just have to approach
it of like, but I'm not

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:04):
scared.
Right.
We have boundaries.
We're not afraid.
You need to stay doing whatyou're doing.
You're not going to affect me.
You're not going to affect mychildren.
You're not going to affect mylife.
Yes.
And see, we've evolved.
We had to go through it and feelit and come out the other side
and process it to now look at itdifferently.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46:24):
Yeah.

UNKNOWN (01:46:24):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:25):
A hundred percent.
And so it's, it's been fun tohear, hear your take on it and
what you conversations you havewith your friends.
I don't want to go too muchlonger, but I mean, I do, I
could talk all day, but for ourlisteners, but tell me real
quick, initial conversations youhad with your friends.
Cause you guys were teenagers.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46:44):
It might be difficult for me to perfectly
remember, but I remember tellingthem the story.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:48):
Did you like go to school one day and be like, Oh
my God, you will not believewhat I found out.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46:52):
Like who wouldn't.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:53):
Yeah.
No.
So I want to hear that from you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46:55):
I don't remember exactly what I told them.
I mean, I know their generalreactions.

SPEAKER_01 (01:46:59):
Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 (01:46:59):
Of that.
I mean, I think they believedme.

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:02):
Did any remember the news article?
Did any of them remember thathappened?
I

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:05):
don't remember.
You don't remember.
To be honest.
But I know like.
I just to my best friends areAlex and Wyatt.
I know Alex is a little moreskeptical now, but I definitely
feel like he believed me then.
But Wyatt definitely believes.
So I know that he was.
He very much felt the same way.
I think Dutch felt the same way.
But, you know, they definitelybelieved me.
And I think they were like, Idon't

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:26):
know.
Oh, my God, that's your house.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:28):
It's crazy

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:29):
how much time they had spent there.
Sleepovers.

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:32):
That's what they tell me now.
So when I talk to Wyatt now,he's often like, I just can't
believe like I spent the nightso many times with all that
going on.
Yeah,

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:44):
quite a

SPEAKER_03 (01:47:44):
story.
So,

SPEAKER_01 (01:47:45):
oh, my gosh.
Well, it's been interesting.
So much fun having you here.
I've been wanting to have you onthe show for so, so, so long
because we have so many sharedexperiences and so many things
that I just think we have greatconversations and always fun
stuff to talk about.
So I really appreciate you beinghere and sharing your
perspective.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:05):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was super fun.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48:07):
All right.
Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 (01:48:08):
Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 (01:48:09):
Thank you for joining me again for another
episode of All Is Not Lostpodcast.
I really hope you enjoyedlistening to me talk with my son
Sam as much as I enjoyedrecording it.
Remember to like and subscribeand review and listen anywhere
you get your podcasts.

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