August 19, 2023 • 63 mins
Our guest for this episode is Ryan Barba, a former professional golfer whose journey to recovery from addiction is nothing short of extraordinary. Ryan takes us down memory lane with tales from his childhood in North Carolina and Pennsylvania, as well as his passion for golf and skateboarding. He unflinchingly delves into his personal struggles with addiction, guilt, and shame. He also shares his future plans, which include a sobriety-focused podcast and his hope to interview his friend Brendan Novak.
Opening up the conversation, we navigate the complex societal issues like gun violence, racism, and the often distorted influence of the media. We also explore the psychological toll of isolation, societal values' evolution over the past decade, and the importance of truly being present during social interactions. This segment is a deep dive into the contemporary societal landscape and the mental health challenges it poses.
Finally, Ryan talks about his experiences in recovery and how theatre helped him heal. His remarkable transformation story underscores the importance of recovery houses and the unique programs they offer to support sobriety. A big shoutout to our producer, John Edwards, whose input helped shape this epi
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hello and thanks again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Van Lee.
Today's guest is Ryan Barba.
Ryan is from Delaware and Ryanis going to tell a story of
personal recovery today, of howa career in professional golf
(00:25):
was interrupted by an addictionthat he could not hide.
He won't tell that story in hisown words.
Ryan is also a patient atFellowship House Outpatient, an
intensive outpatient and partialhospitalization program.
That is a program I am afounder of, so that's the
(00:49):
disclaimer.
Let's meet Ryan Barba.
That's the sound effects.
Ryan, thanks for coming overtoday.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Absolutely my pleasure.
This is like my dream To be ona podcast.
Yeah, I've told you this.
I've always wanted to start myown, did you?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
ever?
Were you ever a guest on apodcast before?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, I've always again , I've always wanted to yeah,
never happened.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
How about do any of your friends do golf podcasting?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
No, I listen to a lot of them though, but that's.
I kind of wanted to start myown just with, like you know,
everyday stuff, you know,including kind of sobriety and
stuff like that to kind of throwin there too, but it's kind of
everyday life.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, let's talk about it.
You stay in Scranton foranother year, which it's
unlikely with the plans you'vebeen making in your professional
golfer.
But if you do take the mic here, take three weeks of all better
.
You could interview onlyDelaware people.
Yeah, that'd be cool.
(02:04):
Come on, all better.
And you could interview BrendanNovak yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Now I screwed him on.
You think he would do it?
I think he would.
Yeah, I mean, I talked to himabout it.
Yeah, you know, I gave him yournumber and you know I was
hoping to maybe have him come up.
Even my year celebrationwhether I'm here or not, I want
to celebrate my year up here andI was kind of hoping maybe he
(02:33):
would come up and be a part ofthat too.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Who's Brendan Novak?
For anyone who's listening.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Brendan is a.
It was funny.
I mean, my brother he's a bigskateboarder and very good and
he during his drinking days hekind of befriended Bam Margera
and became really close with himand I think, from what I
understand is, you know, I meanNovak lived with Bam and my
(03:02):
brother would kind of hang outwith that whole crowd.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
This is like the 2000s, like early 2000s, no.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And probably 2012 to 2015-ish or all that Okay, sure
Around there.
But you know, he kind of gotcaught up in that crowd and then
, you know, I lived with my momand so did he.
We all lived together.
And then Novak decided to movein with us and he was still in
(03:37):
active use then and it was justkind of a, you know, you picture
the Jackass TV show.
That's kind of what I had tolive through and I was kind of
like their puppet.
You know where I would get peedon every night.
You know I would get deadanimals thrown in, you know, and
I would sleep on the couch.
(03:58):
I didn't have my own room.
So you know they would becoming home at 5am in the
morning and that's when theywould kind of you didn't have to
like leave home to be hazed.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
every night, like every evening, you came home to
a hazing or a prank that youinvolved?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, somewhere Dead animals.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, let's start from the beginning, right, where
are you from and we're going toget to the point of how you
ended up in Scranton.
And for a disclaimer, ryan hasbeen the first patient and
resident of my outpatient andIOP, so I wanted to put that out
(04:39):
there.
So it's not cheap marketing andyou could absolutely criticize
anything about the house hereopenly.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I'm afraid of nothing .
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I'll take criticism or change, but I always ask you
guys what we could be doingbetter.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
But where did you grow up?
Yeah, so I was born in Delaware, I don't remember any of that.
But we moved to North Carolinaand I spent most of my childhood
in North Carolina and it wasgreat.
I mean, I couldn't have askedfor really a better childhood
(05:18):
growing up and as far as that.
My dad got into promotion andwe were going to move back up to
the area in Pennsylvania abouta half hour south from Philly
called Kennett Square.
So we moved up there and evenmy childhood became a dream
(05:49):
childhood really.
I was a big skateboarder backthen too.
I was introduced to golf at avery young age, even in North
Carolina.
I have videos of me whackingthe club and things like that.
But the cool thing back thenwhen I was in middle school was
to skateboard and I kind ofwanted to fit in and I decided
(06:12):
and that was really good at it.
I was me and my brother bondedin that perspective.
But my dad was a member at thisgolf club where we lived at and
I would go out with him everynow and again and I kind of
caught the bug.
And it was funny because Itried to hide it in a way,
(06:34):
because golf was stupid back inthe day.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, to your peers, sure, yeah, okay, so was it
something.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, someone knew that I really liked golf and so
I had to sneak out, and you know.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It's funny skateboarding and golf.
It seemed like they would clashculturally, but there are two
hobbies, leisure or evenlifestyles that for most people
who start them skateboarding orgolf they don't ever have to
stop doing them.
Someone I knew thatskateboarded in middle school,
(07:10):
then high school.
A good portion of them are nowin their 40s.
They still frigging skateboard.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I mean, look at Tony Hawk.
Yeah, the guy's like I think hejust got surgery too recently
and I still skateboarding, youknow it's.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
It's amazing.
Yeah, it's an amazing thing.
You know, I would have neverconsidered that when we would,
we would hay skater, die dude,like all the jocks attacking
skateboarders, but that it's alifestyle that lasted four
decades for my friends thatskateboard well into their 40,
some of the 50s still skating onweekends, skate through town,
(07:46):
go on a road trip, skate throughanother town.
But golf also commits someoneto a lifelong lifestyle too.
So how does golf end up winningover skateboard?
How does this play out?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I don't know, to be honest.
I mean, everyone's alwaystalked about the golf bug, you
know, and people who have nevergolfed and they try it for the
first time and they catch thatbug, and I think that's what I
kind of.
I don't know.
I think it was just more oflike a really good escape for me
.
But so is skateboarding in away too, you know it was.
They're both very like you'reoutside, you know, you're
(08:21):
enjoying the weather and but Idon't know, it was just a way
for me to escape, because I mean, during that time I was kind of
going through.
My parents were getting divorcedat that time too, and me and my
father bonded over that a lotand I became pretty good at it
(08:41):
at a young age and I won theclub championship, you know,
when I was like 15 or 16, theygave you a parking spot and I
got a parking spot and I'm notmy license yet and the members
weren't too happy about that,but I would park my bike there
because I live so close.
So my bike there or my dadwould park there.
(09:02):
But during that time me and mydad would.
He would, you know, we wouldtravel everywhere to play in
tournaments and stuff at an ageand and those what age are you
at?
I would say like 13 to you know17.
We traveled everywhere you knowFlorida, california, georgia,
(09:25):
north Carolina, south Carolina.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Now was your dad, was he a pro?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
No, he's just a he's just an avid golfer.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
He played his whole life.
Really has lights.
The lifestyle can travel, cangolf, without skipping over
something.
I kind of want to just pourdown, just the divorce.
How old were you when yourparents got divorced?
I would say around 13, aroundthat age, and it lasts for like
(09:55):
what, like, this goes over fortwo years a year it was, I think
the divorce was finalized with.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
the separation period was, I think, seven years.
Yeah, it was kind of a nastyone, yeah, and you know it, at
that age, you know, I didn't alot of my friends parents were
divorced.
So I kind of like was goingwith the flow, you know, and I
didn't really think too much ofit.
But you know it, in a way ittook a little bit of a toll on
(10:27):
me, but I got to be carefulbecause my mom is probably going
to listen to this.
But when we moved there shebecame a pretty avid drinker.
We were kind of known as theparty house and my dad had moved
(10:51):
out and it was hard for me togo to bed when I knew they were
out drinking or whatever.
My dad is not an alcoholic byany means, but my mom kind of
became one in a way.
And I think it goes a littlebit deeper than that.
They wouldn't come home untillike three o'clock in the
(11:19):
morning and then they wouldsometimes argue, and I wouldn't
be working off too much sleepfor school the next day.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But again, I think that was all normal just based
off of like I used to deal withit.
So you're traveling 13 to 17golf.
It's that kind of crisis thatcan explode a home that's not
uncommon with your peers.
When did you find your firstkind of refuge in a drink or a
(11:59):
drug, being that your bottomwent?
Your dad, 13 to 17,.
Did your addiction start inthat window?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I would say so.
I mean, I guess I starteddrinking pretty early on,
probably in around seventh,eighth grade, not really heavily
, but just kind of a few beershere and there on family
vacations and stuff like that.
And once I got to high schoolthough I was a freshman my
(12:30):
brother was a senior and he waspretty popular as a student
there.
So I got kind of picked on alot when I was a freshman.
But when he left I had to kindof maintain that popularity and
(12:50):
continue to throw these partieswhile and he would still throw
them even after he graduated.
But I had people coming up tome in hallways that I didn't,
people I didn't even know, like,oh yeah, here you have a party
this weekend.
I might want news to me.
But yeah, usually every singleweekend we would throw a party.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And how many people would attend this party.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, it depended.
If I threw it I kind of likedto have people that I knew, kind
of a smaller circle.
My brother would kind of invite.
He knew a lot more people thanI did, so he would invite a lot
more.
But I would say, I don't know,10 to 30 people, sometimes 50
(13:37):
maybe.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So 13 to 17 kind of wraps up.
What does that look likebecoming 18?
What's going on then?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I was a senior in high school.
I had gotten a four-ride toWilmington for golf and this guy
was the coach there was kind oflooking at me for a while.
So I decided to go there afterhigh school and I wanted to be a
(14:09):
lawyer.
I wanted to be a defenseattorney and took criminal
justice there.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Trust me that won't interrupt your golf game.
It did, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, that's why I quit, because I found out how
much work it actually took andI'm like fuck that.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, if you could talk to any criminal lawyer,
he'd rather be a golfer, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, that's so.
During that I went there fortwo seconds.
But during that time I foundout there was a golf school in
Myrtle Beach and my eyes lit upand one of my mentors he was a
golf pro at the club I grew upat.
So I just kind of had a highmoment and I was just like
(14:51):
that's what I want to do.
So I kind of caught up with mydad and I don't think he was too
thrilled that I wanted to packmy bags and go to Myrtle Beach.
But that's what I did and itwas a two-year program.
You got your associate's degreein business and, believe it or
not, I barely passed.
(15:12):
It was I had to sit next to anaccounting major to pass the
final, to pass and graduate.
But that was a crazy time frametoo for me.
I think that's kind of when Iwas introduced to strippers and
(15:33):
I was starting to do a littlebit more coke and all that stuff
while I was down there and itwas a good time.
But it was a real shitty timetoo.
I turned 21 years old downthere and that was a shit show
in itself.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
How are you financing all?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
this.
So I was I mean, my dad waskind of fitting the bill for
everything.
We found this apartment near myschool and he was helping me
out financially, kind of gave mea budget and like this is what
you have for rent and everythingelse and I would do some work
at some golf courses on the side, like under the table stuff,
(16:14):
but he was helping me outfinancially and which, looking
back on it now, really it hurtme, you know.
But he didn't know anythingthat was going on.
Really, you know I but Didanybody?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
No, how about you?
How did you consider it?
Did you feel this is something?
If if exposed the rate and theamount that you're partying?
Do you think someone would beconcerned if they knew the whole
picture?
I think so, yeah, I mean yeah,dude, were you, did you think
that way?
Then, like this is something tohide, okay, no.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I Don't think I really care well in the thing
and my dad didn't know I went tolike a couple of strip clubs
because he would see some ATMtransactions that I made at.
So I'm like yeah, I went therelast night, but I don't think
you knew the extent of itbecause I would bring you know
four or five of them back to myapartment with a couple of my
friends and you know, Just havea good time.
(17:24):
Thanks, dad.
Yeah, it's horrible lookingback on it now you know, but I
got a gun poured out on me on my21st birthday by a cab driver.
Just being an asshole, but youdrew down on you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't doanything wrong.
If anything, I over tipped theguy too, he still did it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
What did he feel was such a threat that he was?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well, he was trying to use a cab driver and they
would post up at trip clubs andwhen for and this one was, they
didn't close to like 5 am, butthey, he picked me up and he I
live like five minutes down theroad and this guy was like going
Completely the opposite way andI kind of caught him out on it.
Yeah, again acting like a idiot.
And and the cab ride thatshould have been like 10 bucks
(18:15):
turned out to be like I don'tknow $30 or something like that.
I made a big fuss about it and Ijust threw like I Don't know
like 60 bucks cash at him orsomething like that and I say go
fuck yourself.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And he got out and flashed a piece flashed and you
flash your piece out on the laneman Snatch it from you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
He showed it to you, pull up a shirt, and then he
pulled it out and put it at myforehead, and then I'm acting
like this tough guy, like ohyeah boy trigger.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
No, did you ever see this cab driver again?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
No, well, the funny thing was I didn't like there
was, the neighbors saw it.
It was that, like you know, 5,36 o'clock in the morning, so
people are going to work.
Yeah, I'm just coming in.
You're getting Executed by acab driver.
Yeah, so people would saw itand cops came and I had a fill
out a report and everything.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
That's wild.
How long ago was that?
Because it just in height oftoday, being April 2023.
I've read five or six storiesin the last week of Just
Extremely scared people shootingother people, of mistaken
doorknocks, getting into thewrong car to cheerleaders shot,
(19:31):
one killed.
This was like two days ago andI'm seeing this rev up on the
media, like In Florida.
I don't know if you're payingattention to it, I was just, it
just seems relevant of howquickly people are not only show
a gun of the.
I mean, these are just peopleopening fire.
The guy down in Was it Ohio kidknocked on the wrong door
(19:55):
looking for his brother.
You just shot him.
Yeah, just open the door andshot him.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
What do you say?
I mean, that's more like whatdo you think about that as far
as?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It's someone sitting, you know, maybe they have rate
racist tendencies, for whateverreasons their, their culture,
they're limited background,education, socioeconomics, where
you're raised, what year you'reborn, who your family is.
This kind of creates, well,what's in your mind?
I'm so you can't escape it likethese these elements are and
(20:27):
variables are chosen for you.
Yeah, it's.
Can you break free from them soyou're not running through a
life fucking terrified all thetime, right?
So now this guy's in his like60s this is how I'm kind of
perceiving it.
He's sitting there just fuckinggetting hammered by the news
all day.
Yeah, that you know immigrantsare raiding in at untold numbers
(20:48):
.
Eventually they're gonna whatcome to his door and take his,
his soup and I Don't knowwhatever.
You know madness reigns insomeone's head.
Yeah, from your fears.
So it's not just what the newsis saying, it's what you project
the world's going to be.
Yeah, like it's you completingthe news story.
(21:10):
I know how it ends.
Yeah, like it's gonna be a war.
It's gonna be a race war.
Yeah, like this.
You know these are the fuckingminds just being poisoned so we
could watch the same newsproduct and one guy's getting
reinforced with, like, racistagendas and being scared Now, if
there's a black kid on myportrait ring in his bell,
(21:31):
there's only one reason why hecould be there.
Right, he's gonna rob me andhe's in a gang.
Yeah, we know it, it's blacklives matters now at my house.
Yeah, just to solicit a fightand see it right that it's crazy
.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Because it's funny now, because I heard something
like we saw a video the otherday about like Bringing the
doorbell, like now versus likeback in the 90s.
Oh, that's a comedian, I think.
Yeah, but like back in the 90s,like you were excited when the
doorbell rang, like you werelike you know it's one of your
friends, or, but now it's likeyou turn off all the lights, you
hide, it's like crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah.
And in person contact, uh it's.
I think it takes more energyfrom people to be present for,
like in person socialengagements.
Mm-hmm, um, it became realcommon.
I even, like 10 years ago, I'dbe hanging with friends.
We could be taxing and halfpaying attention to each other.
(22:27):
You know, if you did that 10years prior to that, it'd be
really rude.
Um, I remember when next tellwould have that two-way beep,
beep, beep in restaurants,people would be offended.
Then it became normal.
Then, you know it's, uh, Ithink there's a pushback now,
when I'm with my wife or we'rewith people, they get all of our
(22:50):
attention.
Mm-hmm, I think people gettired of that.
It's just, it takes so much.
Yeah, it's crazy after the lastthree years some of the
isolation from covet.
You get comfortable not beingaround people.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's bad.
I mean Carly and I were talkingabout it because she had gotten
rid of her, like social mediaand and all that and I don't
have any Social media and Carlyis our master clinician at
fellowship house.
Yeah, she's okay, but like I dohave tiktok, which is still
(23:25):
like it's I, hate that I like itso much.
But Carly purged herself of allof that.
Yeah, and you know, even mebeing on facebook and instagram,
like, I've seen like a mentalchange in as far as like yeah, I
don't care about like, it's sofunny to me now, like looking
back on, like I have to postthis picture of like look at me
(23:47):
at On fucking you know grease.
Like, why do I need, why do Ifeel the need to share that With
everyone?
I have a problem.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Um, the podcast was a way to combat it.
I could meet the needs of likehow I like, hurted explosion.
But, um, sorry people, there'sexplosions and green ridge
speaking at gunfire.
They're here, they're nowshooting at us.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
They're at the doorbell.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, it's everywhere now Stories, news, my house,
we're shooting.
Well, I don't know, that was myway to combat it because, um,
it has a really strong effect onme.
Um, now, um, that I could feelit.
(24:41):
It lingers for days.
I feel Like almostdisassociation, peeling away
from the phone.
Um, instagram, facebook, I've,I've, I've raced the apps from
my phone and I go on maybe threetimes a week to post the
podcast.
But even if I leave it lingerthat day, I'll be tracking
(25:02):
things, looking for things orI'll be scrolling on.
I don't have tiktok, but I dothe reels on instagram.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah same thing.
They're awesome, I mean it'sjust.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It's really bad because it's nothing I need to
be giving my my time to.
No, I have a lot to do, yeah,um, and a lot of people need my
attention.
Yeah, and I could be somewherefor 15 minutes.
I could be looking in themorning before I could be
meditating or doing something tostart my day, go down to the
gym and I could.
(25:35):
15 minutes just gone and I'mwatching weird shit.
Yeah it's weird stuff, thinkingit's hilarious, but I'm like,
what am I doing like this?
I didn't make a willfuldecision or plan that to be part
of my day.
It's just frightening to thinkthe commodity is my attention
and I just sold it to someone.
I just gave it to them.
(25:55):
They're exploiting my.
My frontal lobe is gone.
That's the real fear for me atthe sense of AI rising up and
running these these things.
If it had its own goals, wewouldn't even know you're being
spun out.
I'm not even saying it has tobe a robot.
We're not even talking about Amanifestation of some AI in a
(26:17):
singular machine.
Just just now.
It influences us tremendously.
It rewards lies.
It's already trained tomanipulate humans and scare them
and spread false information.
It just frightens me the threethings you shouldn't have done
with super systems like that,like Instagram and all these
(26:38):
models and these.
The rise of AI.
Ai Is teach it about humanpsychology or cognition or
emotion.
It knows how to manipulatehumans.
There was one thing you shouldnever do to AI.
They said that in the 60s.
The second thing is put itonline.
Right, and now it's pervasively, could get into anything.
(26:59):
If it's going to be a superintelligence and super
intelligence is it's unhuman.
It would be alien.
Yeah our own cognition.
And then the third thing is uh,Never teach it psychology,
Don't put it online and neverteach it and train it in code,
(27:22):
writing code.
Now this is what would makeitself generating.
I know we went off on a tangenthere and I did on my last
podcast, but it's a.
It's scary, it's the news thathas my full attention, because I
love existential crisis, yeah,but this one's really unique and
some people are really scared.
Some people are really happyand I've been trying to listen
(27:45):
to yeah, I would love to yeahwear the guardrails on this, but
it's hard to imagine AI beinggreat.
I believe them.
If they're great, it's gotguardrails and it doesn't become
conscious.
What I don't believe is, if itis conscious and you don't align
it right, you're all dead.
If there's no escape from it,we are just prey to whatever its
(28:08):
will.
Is we already?
I've just spent 15 minutesevery morning.
Any morning, I could be victimto my own phone my own attention
and I didn't make a decision todo that.
It's weird.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's bad, it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, let's get back to your life story, now that AI
has taken into this it is AI.
But when did your addictionstart to jeopardize what you're
really good at and what youreally enjoy is golf, and you're
a pro.
And how did you lose that?
(28:47):
How does one lose that becauseof an addiction?
And how do you realize what'shappening to you?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I don't know.
I think when I turned 21 and Ihad gotten my first pro job is
when it really took a downfall.
But as far as the game itself,that's a love that I will always
have and I always did, becausethat was my escape of everything
(29:16):
.
It was kind of like my drug ina way.
But I had gotten my first projob when I was 21 and I think
that kind of shot my ego throughthe roof when all my friends
were still in school and I had agolf pro job making I don't
(29:37):
know.
It was like 30, 35 grand a yearand I thought it was a million
bucks.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, man, that's a real shot of pride, identity, a
payout from all the time spentwith golf.
Now you're a pro.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, but I had gotten 2 DUIs during that time,
back to back within a month andI would show up late all the
time and that job probablylasted I don't know like six to
eight months and I got fired.
But I quickly found another oneand it was just kind of the
(30:15):
same pattern throughout my wholecareer and I just kind of went,
I bounced around and then therewas just one job opportunity
that opened up in Florida.
And prior to that, that's whenNovak lived with me and my
brother and my mom and mybrother had gotten me and him
(30:39):
gotten to a very big argumentand it's crazy looking back at
it now.
I was going to work and he wascoming in from a bender and him
and I got in this big argumentand he went to rehab that day
and stayed sober ever since then.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Did you have any definition in your mind of what
recovery was, or had friends orpeople disappear in your life?
Which treatment prior to yourbrother?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean Novak went before him, but I knew a couple
of my friends but I didn'treally have a working idea of
what recovery was.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I had no idea what AA was, let alone no, no
definition of addiction.
No, not at all.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I didn't think I had a problem whatsoever at that
point.
It took me a very long time tokind of realize that.
But I was taking money from mymom and I didn't want to face it
.
And she called me.
I didn't want to face thatconversation.
So that was kind of a move forme to kind of go down to Florida
(31:46):
and escape everyone, includingmy family members and we were
talking about that the other daywhere I kind of cut off
communication with everyone.
There would kind of be spurtshere and there, like with my dad
, but it sucked because my momwould send me.
She would have people come overthat I knew in Florida and she
(32:10):
also knew, and they woulddeliver me birthday cakes that
my mom would purchase.
I never once did I shoot her atext and say thank you or
anything, because I still feltso guilty and shameful of what I
did.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
It is guilt and shame .
If you don't mind if I could prya little in, the sense you said
your ego exploded when you gotthe position as your first golf
pro position.
You get a salary, young guy,most people it could be pride.
It won't be, just say, an ego.
(32:46):
But ego is distinct.
It's this idea of this persona,this mask that I'm creating,
this manufactured identity, andfor some people that have trauma
and addiction, the line isreally blurry of where this true
sense of self or authenticityof self is versus the ego we
(33:09):
manufacture.
And I relate to this profoundlybecause I feel like I designed
an ego before I had apersonality.
Just because of circumstancesthat you can't control, what you
raised up, an ego rises up todefend a person from a reality
that's just too painful, likethis personality.
So do you think some of thiscould have been the
(33:31):
confrontation of now being justwhat could be called a thief,
not an addict?
You took money.
That's just too painful forsomeone to say no.
This is not how I think ofmyself, because I don't think of
you as a thief.
But addiction can make usjustify all these strange
patterns that we would alwaysfind immoral to do.
(33:54):
But we'll never look at it asthat as we're doing it.
And do you think isolatingyourself for that period down in
Florida was that was just toopainful to come to terms.
If you admit it to that, you'readmitting to a serious problem.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Right, yeah, well, yeah, I think so.
I think that was, yeah, I mean,and that's the thing too, where
it's just like when I was doingthat, like my parents didn't
raise me like that either, whereit's just like I didn't really
know well, I didn't want to knowthe extent of like what problem
I had.
I didn't want to hear it, but,yeah, I didn't want to face
(34:32):
reality and the funny thing isit's actually I never.
I was thinking about this theother day where I lived with
someone in Florida and theywouldn't he didn't charge me
rent, but he lived with hisfiance and he was in the program
too.
I had no idea what the fuck hewas and I just knew he was gone
(34:53):
for a while when I first startedthis job and he came back and
because he was in rehab.
But yeah, he said he was in theprogram and all this stuff.
I'm like oh, good for you andit's funny.
It's not funny.
But, like you know, we were atthe bar one day and he was there
and with some of our workfriends and we were doing coke
(35:14):
and he decided to do some blowwith us and he relapsed that and
I didn't know the extent.
I'm like, oh yeah, it was allright Without a drink.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Without a drink.
They've only known a couplepeople to do that and they're
dangerous.
Yeah, but it's just, I didn'tlast long.
No, but the guy that's like,yeah, like he doesn't, he didn't
prime himself for like fourbeers or a scotch.
You're just bumping lines ofcoke without a drink in your
hand.
I don't know.
I keep my eye on that guy myentire drinking career.
(35:43):
The guy who's doing cocainewithout having a few drinks.
I'm watching him because he'sgoing to be a problem.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, he didn't, he was perfectly fine.
And it's crazy because he, Imean, granted, only lasted maybe
two months and then he starteddrinking again, but I didn't
again.
I didn't know like the extentof it.
I'm like, oh yeah, dude, if youjust do coke, like that's fine,
Like just don't drink alcohol.
That was your problem, right,Like I had.
I was so oblivious to any ofthat, yeah, midnight advice.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, To do it just do it like Freud, just do it out
of the intellectual interest ofcocaine.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Listen to me.
I've only had about an eighthof James and then a eight bomb
at this point.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
How does that that journey down to Florida end?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I had found a job in North Carolina and we that was
like the only job I left on goodterms with and they actually
offered me more money to stayand I was.
He can offer me $100,000 orprobably wouldn't stay, but I've
always wanted to end up inNorth Carolina and end up
working down there, and that wasshort lived too.
(36:56):
I kind of quickly, you know Ikind of Starting to drink it, I
was drinking, I was gettingprostitutes, I would you know, I
graduated to crack you know awhile back, but Did that
expedite things pretty quickly?
Oh yeah, it was bad, and we were.
I was talking about this theother day too, or you know, I
(37:17):
was gonna pay it bi-weekly and Ihated it when I wasn't sober.
It is because, like I wouldspend that entire paycheck and
then three days two days, ohyeah, overnight, yeah, and I
wouldn't have money for 13 days?
Yeah, so like, and that killedme.
But and how about cigarettes?
Did you smoke cigarettes?
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Oh yeah, yeah, how you get into a pack like that's.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
I would have people from work.
Just I'm gonna say I'll get you.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Unaverage if you could smoke all that you you
regularly smoke.
Is it 20 cigarettes a day?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
No, I actually don't smoke a pack a day.
I probably smoke, you know, 10,15.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
You know cigarettes are designed like by dosage,
length and and by the pack to be20 cigarettes a day, because
withdrawal starts immediatelyafter you put it out and full
withdrawal would be an hour.
Oh great after you haveextinguished a cigarette.
So on average, the whole designand metric of 20 cigarettes is
(38:13):
to make sure all smokers wouldwant to like every hour Could
smoke a cigarette every hour,yeah, not more, wow.
Yeah, well, I make sure youguys.
13 days to figure out how toget you know, 1300 smokes.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
So I suck man it.
And during that I got kickedout.
I was living with a buddy ofmine who worked at a different
course.
He was on, he was on thegrounds crew at another course.
But I couldn't stick up withrent.
It was, I think it was only,like you know, six or 800 bucks.
I had to pay, but I couldn'tafford a big double, you know so
(38:48):
.
So I lived out of my car forabout six months and, you know,
thankfully I had.
You know, I worked at a golfcourse where they had locker
rooms and showers so I wouldshower there in the six months,
was it.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
what seasons is it?
Spring, summer, was it?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
it was, I think, fall .
Yeah, it was, and it suckedbecause I I would have to kind
of put the heat on and turn offmy car, and sometimes I wouldn't
turn off my car.
I'll forget.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
How did you get you?
When did you get used tosleeping in your car, to the
fact it wasn't painful everynight?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I don't think I don't think I used to it so man it
was fucking tough because, like,even then I couldn't Did anyone
know you were living in the car.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Were you hiding this for the majority of the people
that were in your like circle inNorth Carolina?
Were you?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
no one knew as far as people in North Carolina, I
would tell them I was staying ina hotel.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
There was a couple times where I did.
I asked, like the headpro, if Icould stay with them and and he
offered, he was like he'd staywith me until you find a place
and I just, I just, wanted to dothat.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, you might want to.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You might fuck it up too right, because I'm walking
in at five o'clock in themorning, you know after you know
Doing drugs all night man right, that's I'm, I'm, I'm in.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
That's intense to walk around, that's fear, it's
just total fear, shame, anxiety,anxiety out of control by that.
Oh yeah, yeah I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, the Walmart parking lot was really where I
stayed and there was McDonald'sright there, so I'll kind of
scrape up.
I would literally scrape up,you know, like you know,
quarters and stuff to try to geta meat chicken or whatever but,
yeah, for those two weeks whereI didn't get paid it was.
It sucked.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Did you have a cell phone, mm-hmm yeah when the
loneliness would drive in, andyou know I have a lot of friends
and people I've known reallywell that have ended up homeless
in various ways, from a car tonot having a place to live,
going house to house to straightto the streets of Kensington.
There's something that's justbrutal.
(41:01):
It's loneliness, and it willarise, you know, until you
totally lose a sense of yourself.
It'll rise every day.
Mm-hmm.
When would that happen to you?
Would it be in that parking lot?
Would it?
Would you be tempted andcompelled to just call someone
and say Fucking, this gotta end,like what restrained you from
(41:21):
calling home, or I think?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
it was just like Just fear of not having the
conversation, but I eventuallydid, you know, I eventually did
call my mom and I told my workthat I needed some time.
I don't know how long it'sgonna be, it could be forever, I
don't know but I just wanted togo home and sleeping in a
fucking bed and so, yeah, I dideventually move back up here and
(41:48):
I haven't seen my mom and Idon't know three, four, five
years or something like that,and so that was a very emotional
moment, you know, especiallyfor her.
But I think, really, where thedepression hit was, you know, I
had gotten a job after I got myfirst job.
You know, I had gotten a jobafter that too, and but I got
(42:08):
gotten far from that job too,from stealing money from there.
But I had something, what theycall that clinical depression,
where I would I literally stayedin my room for Probably six
months, maybe a little bit more.
Yeah, I Wouldn't get up.
I guess I the only time I wouldget up was to get food and I
would literally pee out thefucking window because I was too
(42:30):
afraid to face anybody.
That's crippling.
You know, I lived with mybrother, um, he was sober and he
was in the program and, um, youknow my mom was there, but you
know she would come in check onme every now and again.
But I, I did not want to faceanybody because I didn't know, I
thought my life was doneBecause I had just broken up
with a girlfriend.
(42:50):
I lost my job, my dream jobthat I had.
Um, I was facing a third DUIthe time, um, and you know I
have this like stigma that I I'ma thief because I stole money
from a club that you know Tofeed my addiction really.
But um it, I didn't know whereto go from there.
(43:13):
I was so fucking lost tonightto the point like my lawyer kept
on like continuing the courtdate until I went to treatment
and um yeah, I, I was Stillgoing.
I would go out in the middle ofthe night to go on a little bit
of a binge.
You know, my mom would give mea couple hundred bucks but I
(43:33):
would stay out for Three days ata time and um well, that sucks.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
They're not fun to come back to that after three
days.
They crawl back into your mom'shouse.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, it was bad and um, you know it that was, I met
someone else on this dating appand, um, in a way, she saved my
life.
In a way, um, because Iattempted suicide.
I um Kind of had enough.
I, you know, I had stole fromthe girl I was talking to and,
(44:03):
um, I decided I wrote a wholebunch of uh letters on paper
towers with a sharpie and, um,the place I was at, I I had a
whole bunch of there was a wholebunch of Advil there, so I just
started like chewing them.
It's corny, it's gonna soundcorny but like she's desperation
.
Yeah, but she's.
(44:23):
She sent me this like our songthat we used to listen to, like
while I was chewing the fuckingpills, and, um, I just spit them
out right away when she sent itto me and um, but that was just
the moment where I just kind ofgave up and I was surrounded by
a whole bunch of cops and um, Ihad a warrant out for my arrest
(44:44):
from stealing from my job whichI had no idea I had.
Um, and this cop was like youknow this cop, by the way, like
you saying that he knows you,I'm like I don't know anybody
over there.
I don't know what you're talkingabout, but this cop that used
to come by the club that Iworked at Him and I became
pretty good friends and he's theone that picked me up oh my god
(45:04):
, great Like this is the lastperson I want to see right now.
But um, he, uh, he gave me ahug and just said you know, I
want to see you here again, youknow, but I had to go to
treatment to take after that,but yeah, well, what?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
brings you to scranton.
Yeah, scranton, I, uh, I had a.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I relapsed, uh.
But um, going to, I had a scareat.
You know, I was kind of heldhostage in a way and um, you
know, the first go around ittook me a while to kind of get
into treatment.
But this one I had, you know, Iwas kind of like I needed, I
need to do it.
But, um, after what I just wentthrough and um, um, yeah, I uh
(45:52):
going through that whole Stage,it it's hard to even believe
that I, you know, kind of wentthrough something like that.
It it's weird to say even now.
But, um, I was trying to reallycontrol things.
My first go around I thought Iknew it all.
(46:14):
I was a house manager at onepoint Coming here.
It was really weird how I endedup here.
I went to Clear Brook inMassachusetts because every 20
days I came up to they tried tosend me to Langhorn, which is a
(46:36):
PHP for Banyan.
I was going to go there.
I want to go to Clear Brookdown there.
I thought they did PHP theretoo and they didn't.
But they're like, oh well, wefound this place called Mountain
Teg.
It's pretty new.
I'm like, all right, fuck it.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
I'll do that.
That's by Elks Mountain here Atthis point, just like if
someone was listening.
You're continuing with carehere, you get detoxed.
You got 28, 30 days ininpatient treatment From there.
You want to go for furthertreatment and that could be up
to more 90 days what you'recalling a PHP partial
(47:12):
hospitalization program.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, I didn't know it was 90 days, I thought it was
30 days.
I went up to my counselor andshe was like, how long does it
stay here?
Like 30?
She's like, well, we recommend90.
I'm like I'll do 90.
That's what.
It was really different thistime.
I was really willing to doanything to get help.
Yeah, so I did the 90 there andI experienced something.
(47:41):
One of my best friends diedwhile I was in treatment there
and that kind of killed me,because he came and visited me a
couple weeks prior to his death, weeks leading into it.
I was on the phone with himevery day, trying to get him to
actually come up to Mountain'sEdge, because there was a guy
(48:06):
there that has been to 37treatments and he said this is
by far the best place I've everbeen to, and it truly is.
I mean, as much as I hate togive Joe Kane a lot of credit
here, but that whole him andthat whole staff there really
changed my life, joe.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Kane's, the clinical director of Mountain's Edge.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
But the groups that they run there.
It's something short of amazing.
It's really intimate and it'ssomething that it's really hard
to explain.
He's one of the best cliniciansin the world.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
It's crazy and it's funny to see here people like oh
, I fucking hate him, like well,it's probably for a reason.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
But well, hate requires passion, so there's
passion involved in there.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
It's just he calls people out in their bullshit and
people just don't like that.
But going through that, I meanit was really they.
Let me go to the funeral for mybest friend.
I think that whole time thatfuneral really hurt, like it
(49:23):
seared into my brain, because Ihad my mom sitting next to me
and when the priest gave my momor his mom the ashes, my mom
kept on saying like don't dothis to me, don't do this to me.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Did you feel sober there?
Like, what was your feelingthere?
That would be different fromnot being sober, just being dry,
because you went there withfull intentions to grieve and in
pain.
But how would you describefeeling sober at that moment,
matt?
Like what does that mean there?
Even though you're sad and ingrief, did you feel vulnerable
(50:00):
to drinking?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
or relapsing?
No, I didn't.
It's funny because after thefuneral, I went to the you know
they have gathering after wherethey all drink, and it was.
We're just looking at peopleand like they're all drinking
and I like saw it from like adifferent perspective.
Like I'm, like man, that's whatI would.
(50:24):
I would drink myself to deathright now, like this was five
months ago, you know, sure,because like, but it was like
that just moment of clarity, oflike they're doing that to numb
the pain that they're currentlyin and unfortunately, I don't
get to have any of those, Idon't I get to feel it, which I
became like grateful to kind offeel that now, in a way, just to
(50:50):
feel feelings, whether that'shappiness, sadness, anger, you
know, I'm kind of grateful toenable to like go through those
feelings and really experiencethem all you know, because I
wasn't.
I haven't been really used todoing that for, you know, like a
decade, you know.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
So I would you describe the last three months
of really getting your sea legsin recovery, Because how long
are you sober?
Speaker 2 (51:19):
now Almost 11 months.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Almost a year is coming up soon.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
And a year.
It took a year of fulltreatment.
There's not much you haven'tdone towards your recovery is
the PHP.
Afterwards you went to kind ofinstill an intensive outpatient
program, live in a recoveryhouse, and that's when I got to
meet you and I've known you nowsince September.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, I mean it's funny because I think I've told
you this.
But I mean I've heard you speakat a meeting and you know I
kind of always had.
You know, I was like I reallylike to ask them to be my
sponsor and then, like I didn'tsee at some of the meetings and
then I saw you at Willow house.
I was like get the fuck out ofhere, just like a, you know,
fucking perfect moment.
There's that psycho.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
I've been fucking looking for you.
But yeah, I mean the trains.
I had no intention of stayingin Scranton at all.
I had zero until about like twoweeks of my discharge at.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
Mountain.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Zedge, and then one of my good friends, dj.
You know he went there.
We talked to Larry and I waslike, all right, well, I'll try
it out.
You know I'm not going to staythere long probably, but I'll
give it a shot on as well.
But it's changed a lot, youknow, since I first got in there
(52:43):
.
But I think it's all positivesin a way, but it'll be a lot
more changes soon.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
I mean your patient zero man Golf pro to patient
zero, that'll be the name of thestuff.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
But now it's been, it's a.
Really it's funny because everysober house I've only been to
two, but like every one they'vebeen like brand new.
So like I've been in, likeyou've only been in brand new
sober houses, yeah, wow, andthey're all like, they all need
help and they all which is good,you know, but you know it's a.
At Novak house it was more likethey had one house and then
(53:20):
they started getting more andthen that was a house.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
They didn't have outpatient services per se right
there.
It was more peer to peer.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
12 step oh, yes and no.
I mean, brandon was part of aband in, so that's right.
Yeah, he worked.
He wanted us to do IOP forBanyan, but it was all on zoom,
so you didn't have to you couldhave went somewhere off site if
you wanted to, but he pushedpeople and most people did,
which was cool.
We kind of all did it at ahouse as a house, and but it was
(53:50):
a 90 day thing and that's agood way to run a recovery house
.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Well, like, why be a recovery house?
You're just an apartmentbuilding If you're not
initiating a the tenants to bein some level of care outpatient
, iop, I mean, what's thestandard then?
Like this this is a place toget better, get more therapeutic
measures to help you outside ofpeer to peer.
I agree that everyone in arecovery house should be in a
(54:17):
level of care.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And it I mean I tell you whatthe IOP for Banyan.
I hated it.
I just didn't think the levelof care was that good.
But I think it's really coolwhat you guys are doing, just as
far as, like you know, becausemost overhouses do require you
to do IOP and but they're alloff site you know, so this one,
(54:41):
you get to walk down stairs andyou're in IOP Go time, yeah,
which is cool, and I think thegroups are good and they're more
you were talking about it acouple weeks ago but, like, as
far as like the shares thatpeople are having now in those
groups, you know, I mean they'reyounger kids and they're very,
you know, intimate, intimate.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, very safe, and I really I am surprised at how
people have responded to notonly the groups some of the
lectures of how we position whataddiction is the trauma based,
informed ideas of addiction andthe meditation of impasana that
(55:26):
we practiced.
I couldn't believe.
You know, some people may maynot like it, but the people that
have.
I was just surprised by itbecause it's usually an act for
me, it was an act of desperationto make it part of my lifestyle
, but I think some people reallygelled with it.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, no, I agree it's.
It's funny because I've been tolike maybe two meditation
groups this whole time.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah, you only go to the first one.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
I only go to your group, joe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yeah, you missed a good meditation.
Last week we had a.
Were you there for the comment?
My, don't look up meditation.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
It was more of a visualization.
Charlie and I are trying toflush it out into.
It's a good tool to see what isat the surface of the top top
of mind of your desires.
17 days left on earth and weexplore some means of what you
would do even in early recovery.
Given the chance to be withloved ones who wouldn't be there
(56:31):
, given that wouldn't forgiveyou for whatever, wherever your
broken relationships are, wouldyou relapse under this plight
and an ism that, like we're allgetting destroyed anyways,
mm-hmm?
Would you be driven to get laidRevenge?
Some people wanted to getrevenge.
It was crazy.
And then on day 17.
(56:51):
We said it, with 18 days in,the comet hits, day 17, the
comet misses, and you know nowwho are you Like if you just
total nihilistic approach to theend.
We have to stand in Judgment ofourselves, of what was priority
.
Who did we become under thiscrisis?
Mm-hmm and you know you reallyhave to paint the visualization
(57:16):
and we took our time for an hourto do it, and breathing, and
this group has been together fora while now, so it wasn't just
a cold audience, there was likenine of us.
It was wild what some of theseanswers were really.
Yeah, and you know, especiallyfor the fathers in the room-
yeah of where they are, and whatyou target, then, is where your
(57:37):
men's need to be.
Yeah and why would you need?
There's always a fuckingcomment coming for us if you're
an alcoholic or a drug addict orhave substance use disorder,
your fears are comets.
You, you manufacture Suchtremendous fears and shame that
you'll relapse at any givenmoment with this unbridled brain
.
Yeah, so, first off, the cometdidn't kill us, so we always
(58:00):
have this fake comet that'sgonna kill and ruin our lives in
our world.
But in that time, what did youabandon and what can't you fix,
or what did you run from?
This is where your recoveryshould be focused on.
Yeah, these are therelationships to that can heal
and Doing so you have recovery.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of how you go through the steps
to, in a way, yeah, we havethose ten big ones and you know
it's you know going through thatand it's it's cool.
Well, you know you kind ofperceive that and but yeah, it's
yeah.
Well, mainly we make them outof a moho 100% of time really
(58:39):
well at that point.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
The other reason that worked I have put these tubes
up the lining of the wall andI've been able to just fill half
the room with nitrous.
Let us begin, gentlemen.
I Am glad to have met you.
We're coming up at an hour andI'm gonna have you back on.
(59:02):
But right, the reason I wantedto have you on a Getting to know
you the last couple months andseeing recovery just transform
your life, your relationships,you making hard decisions and
experiencing grief and loss inlove, all within 11 months and
not having to drink andrealizing, you know, drugs and
(59:26):
alcohol weren't your problem.
They were.
They were a failed solution.
It's so hard to let go ofsomething that almost works
drugs and alcohol, yeah.
And to see you see that youknow Come to be a total fact in
your life here and what you'vedone for our house and how
you've inspired people there, Iam grateful.
(59:46):
I'm glad you came on Well,thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
It's my pleasure, it's a.
It's been a shitty year andit's been a great year, but
that's what.
Speaker 1 (59:55):
That's what theater is masks you gotta I get to use.
I forget to use sound effects.
Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
But I love it, man.
Oh, thank you Joseph.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
I'd like to thank you for listening to another
episode of all better.
To find us on all better FM, orlisten to us on Apple podcast,
spotify, google podcast stitcher, I heart radio and Alexa.
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, an engineering
(01:00:36):
company, 570 drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media, you're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
(01:00:56):
right.
Hello and thanks again for listening to another
episode of All Better.
I'm your host, joe Van Lee.
Today's guest is Ryan Barba.
Ryan is from Delaware and Ryanis going to tell a story of
personal recovery today, of howa career in professional golf
(00:25):
was interrupted by an addictionthat he could not hide.
He won't tell that story in hisown words.
Ryan is also a patient atFellowship House Outpatient, an
intensive outpatient and partialhospitalization program.
That is a program I am afounder of, so that's the
(00:49):
disclaimer.
Let's meet Ryan Barba.
That's the sound effects.
Ryan, thanks for coming overtoday.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
Absolutely my pleasure.
This is like my dream To be ona podcast.
Yeah, I've told you this.
I've always wanted to start myown, did you?
Speaker 1 (01:16):
ever?
Were you ever a guest on apodcast before?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, I've always again , I've always wanted to yeah,
never happened.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
How about do any of your friends do golf podcasting?
Speaker 2 (01:27):
No, I listen to a lot of them though, but that's.
I kind of wanted to start myown just with, like you know,
everyday stuff, you know,including kind of sobriety and
stuff like that to kind of throwin there too, but it's kind of
everyday life.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, let's talk about it.
You stay in Scranton foranother year, which it's
unlikely with the plans you'vebeen making in your professional
golfer.
But if you do take the mic here, take three weeks of all better
.
You could interview onlyDelaware people.
Yeah, that'd be cool.
(02:04):
Come on, all better.
And you could interview BrendanNovak yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
Now I screwed him on.
You think he would do it?
I think he would.
Yeah, I mean, I talked to himabout it.
Yeah, you know, I gave him yournumber and you know I was
hoping to maybe have him come up.
Even my year celebrationwhether I'm here or not, I want
to celebrate my year up here andI was kind of hoping maybe he
(02:33):
would come up and be a part ofthat too.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Who's Brendan Novak?
For anyone who's listening.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
Brendan is a.
It was funny.
I mean, my brother he's a bigskateboarder and very good and
he during his drinking days hekind of befriended Bam Margera
and became really close with himand I think, from what I
understand is, you know, I meanNovak lived with Bam and my
(03:02):
brother would kind of hang outwith that whole crowd.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
This is like the 2000s, like early 2000s, no.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
And probably 2012 to 2015-ish or all that Okay, sure
Around there.
But you know, he kind of gotcaught up in that crowd and then
, you know, I lived with my momand so did he.
We all lived together.
And then Novak decided to movein with us and he was still in
(03:37):
active use then and it was justkind of a, you know, you picture
the Jackass TV show.
That's kind of what I had tolive through and I was kind of
like their puppet.
You know where I would get peedon every night.
You know I would get deadanimals thrown in, you know, and
I would sleep on the couch.
(03:58):
I didn't have my own room.
So you know they would becoming home at 5am in the
morning and that's when theywould kind of you didn't have to
like leave home to be hazed.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
every night, like every evening, you came home to
a hazing or a prank that youinvolved?
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Yeah, somewhere Dead animals.
Speaker 1 (04:18):
Well, let's start from the beginning, right, where
are you from and we're going toget to the point of how you
ended up in Scranton.
And for a disclaimer, ryan hasbeen the first patient and
resident of my outpatient andIOP, so I wanted to put that out
(04:39):
there.
So it's not cheap marketing andyou could absolutely criticize
anything about the house hereopenly.
Speaker 2 (04:47):
I'm afraid of nothing .
Speaker 1 (04:49):
I'll take criticism or change, but I always ask you
guys what we could be doingbetter.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
But where did you grow up?
Yeah, so I was born in Delaware, I don't remember any of that.
But we moved to North Carolinaand I spent most of my childhood
in North Carolina and it wasgreat.
I mean, I couldn't have askedfor really a better childhood
(05:18):
growing up and as far as that.
My dad got into promotion andwe were going to move back up to
the area in Pennsylvania abouta half hour south from Philly
called Kennett Square.
So we moved up there and evenmy childhood became a dream
(05:49):
childhood really.
I was a big skateboarder backthen too.
I was introduced to golf at avery young age, even in North
Carolina.
I have videos of me whackingthe club and things like that.
But the cool thing back thenwhen I was in middle school was
to skateboard and I kind ofwanted to fit in and I decided
(06:12):
and that was really good at it.
I was me and my brother bondedin that perspective.
But my dad was a member at thisgolf club where we lived at and
I would go out with him everynow and again and I kind of
caught the bug.
And it was funny because Itried to hide it in a way,
(06:34):
because golf was stupid back inthe day.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, to your peers, sure, yeah, okay, so was it
something.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, someone knew that I really liked golf and so
I had to sneak out, and you know.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
It's funny skateboarding and golf.
It seemed like they would clashculturally, but there are two
hobbies, leisure or evenlifestyles that for most people
who start them skateboarding orgolf they don't ever have to
stop doing them.
Someone I knew thatskateboarded in middle school,
(07:10):
then high school.
A good portion of them are nowin their 40s.
They still frigging skateboard.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Yeah, I mean, look at Tony Hawk.
Yeah, the guy's like I think hejust got surgery too recently
and I still skateboarding, youknow it's.
Speaker 1 (07:23):
It's amazing.
Yeah, it's an amazing thing.
You know, I would have neverconsidered that when we would,
we would hay skater, die dude,like all the jocks attacking
skateboarders, but that it's alifestyle that lasted four
decades for my friends thatskateboard well into their 40,
some of the 50s still skating onweekends, skate through town,
(07:46):
go on a road trip, skate throughanother town.
But golf also commits someoneto a lifelong lifestyle too.
So how does golf end up winningover skateboard?
How does this play out?
Speaker 2 (08:01):
I don't know, to be honest.
I mean, everyone's alwaystalked about the golf bug, you
know, and people who have nevergolfed and they try it for the
first time and they catch thatbug, and I think that's what I
kind of.
I don't know.
I think it was just more oflike a really good escape for me
.
But so is skateboarding in away too, you know it was.
They're both very like you'reoutside, you know, you're
(08:21):
enjoying the weather and but Idon't know, it was just a way
for me to escape, because I mean, during that time I was kind of
going through.
My parents were getting divorcedat that time too, and me and my
father bonded over that a lotand I became pretty good at it
(08:41):
at a young age and I won theclub championship, you know,
when I was like 15 or 16, theygave you a parking spot and I
got a parking spot and I'm notmy license yet and the members
weren't too happy about that,but I would park my bike there
because I live so close.
So my bike there or my dadwould park there.
(09:02):
But during that time me and mydad would.
He would, you know, we wouldtravel everywhere to play in
tournaments and stuff at an ageand and those what age are you
at?
I would say like 13 to you know17.
We traveled everywhere you knowFlorida, california, georgia,
(09:25):
north Carolina, south Carolina.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
Now was your dad, was he a pro?
Speaker 2 (09:30):
No, he's just a he's just an avid golfer.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
He played his whole life.
Really has lights.
The lifestyle can travel, cangolf, without skipping over
something.
I kind of want to just pourdown, just the divorce.
How old were you when yourparents got divorced?
I would say around 13, aroundthat age, and it lasts for like
(09:55):
what, like, this goes over fortwo years a year it was, I think
the divorce was finalized with.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
the separation period was, I think, seven years.
Yeah, it was kind of a nastyone, yeah, and you know it, at
that age, you know, I didn't alot of my friends parents were
divorced.
So I kind of like was goingwith the flow, you know, and I
didn't really think too much ofit.
But you know it, in a way ittook a little bit of a toll on
(10:27):
me, but I got to be carefulbecause my mom is probably going
to listen to this.
But when we moved there shebecame a pretty avid drinker.
We were kind of known as theparty house and my dad had moved
(10:51):
out and it was hard for me togo to bed when I knew they were
out drinking or whatever.
My dad is not an alcoholic byany means, but my mom kind of
became one in a way.
And I think it goes a littlebit deeper than that.
They wouldn't come home untillike three o'clock in the
(11:19):
morning and then they wouldsometimes argue, and I wouldn't
be working off too much sleepfor school the next day.
Speaker 1 (11:32):
But again, I think that was all normal just based
off of like I used to deal withit.
So you're traveling 13 to 17golf.
It's that kind of crisis thatcan explode a home that's not
uncommon with your peers.
When did you find your firstkind of refuge in a drink or a
(11:59):
drug, being that your bottomwent?
Your dad, 13 to 17,.
Did your addiction start inthat window?
Speaker 2 (12:08):
I would say so.
I mean, I guess I starteddrinking pretty early on,
probably in around seventh,eighth grade, not really heavily
, but just kind of a few beershere and there on family
vacations and stuff like that.
And once I got to high schoolthough I was a freshman my
(12:30):
brother was a senior and he waspretty popular as a student
there.
So I got kind of picked on alot when I was a freshman.
But when he left I had to kindof maintain that popularity and
(12:50):
continue to throw these partieswhile and he would still throw
them even after he graduated.
But I had people coming up tome in hallways that I didn't,
people I didn't even know, like,oh yeah, here you have a party
this weekend.
I might want news to me.
But yeah, usually every singleweekend we would throw a party.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
And how many people would attend this party.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Yeah, it depended.
If I threw it I kind of likedto have people that I knew, kind
of a smaller circle.
My brother would kind of invite.
He knew a lot more people thanI did, so he would invite a lot
more.
But I would say, I don't know,10 to 30 people, sometimes 50
(13:37):
maybe.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
So 13 to 17 kind of wraps up.
What does that look likebecoming 18?
What's going on then?
Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, I was a senior in high school.
I had gotten a four-ride toWilmington for golf and this guy
was the coach there was kind oflooking at me for a while.
So I decided to go there afterhigh school and I wanted to be a
(14:09):
lawyer.
I wanted to be a defenseattorney and took criminal
justice there.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Trust me that won't interrupt your golf game.
It did, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Well, that's why I quit, because I found out how
much work it actually took andI'm like fuck that.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Well, if you could talk to any criminal lawyer,
he'd rather be a golfer, yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Well, that's so.
During that I went there fortwo seconds.
But during that time I foundout there was a golf school in
Myrtle Beach and my eyes lit upand one of my mentors he was a
golf pro at the club I grew upat.
So I just kind of had a highmoment and I was just like
(14:51):
that's what I want to do.
So I kind of caught up with mydad and I don't think he was too
thrilled that I wanted to packmy bags and go to Myrtle Beach.
But that's what I did and itwas a two-year program.
You got your associate's degreein business and, believe it or
not, I barely passed.
(15:12):
It was I had to sit next to anaccounting major to pass the
final, to pass and graduate.
But that was a crazy time frametoo for me.
I think that's kind of when Iwas introduced to strippers and
(15:33):
I was starting to do a littlebit more coke and all that stuff
while I was down there and itwas a good time.
But it was a real shitty timetoo.
I turned 21 years old downthere and that was a shit show
in itself.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
How are you financing all?
Speaker 2 (15:51):
this.
So I was I mean, my dad waskind of fitting the bill for
everything.
We found this apartment near myschool and he was helping me
out financially, kind of gave mea budget and like this is what
you have for rent and everythingelse and I would do some work
at some golf courses on the side, like under the table stuff,
(16:14):
but he was helping me outfinancially and which, looking
back on it now, really it hurtme, you know.
But he didn't know anythingthat was going on.
Really, you know I but Didanybody?
Speaker 1 (16:35):
No, how about you?
How did you consider it?
Did you feel this is something?
If if exposed the rate and theamount that you're partying?
Do you think someone would beconcerned if they knew the whole
picture?
I think so, yeah, I mean yeah,dude, were you, did you think
that way?
Then, like this is something tohide, okay, no.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
I Don't think I really care well in the thing
and my dad didn't know I went tolike a couple of strip clubs
because he would see some ATMtransactions that I made at.
So I'm like yeah, I went therelast night, but I don't think
you knew the extent of itbecause I would bring you know
four or five of them back to myapartment with a couple of my
friends and you know, Just havea good time.
(17:24):
Thanks, dad.
Yeah, it's horrible lookingback on it now you know, but I
got a gun poured out on me on my21st birthday by a cab driver.
Just being an asshole, but youdrew down on you.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't doanything wrong.
If anything, I over tipped theguy too, he still did it.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
What did he feel was such a threat that he was?
Speaker 2 (17:52):
Well, he was trying to use a cab driver and they
would post up at trip clubs andwhen for and this one was, they
didn't close to like 5 am, butthey, he picked me up and he I
live like five minutes down theroad and this guy was like going
Completely the opposite way andI kind of caught him out on it.
Yeah, again acting like a idiot.
And and the cab ride thatshould have been like 10 bucks
(18:15):
turned out to be like I don'tknow $30 or something like that.
I made a big fuss about it and Ijust threw like I Don't know
like 60 bucks cash at him orsomething like that and I say go
fuck yourself.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
And he got out and flashed a piece flashed and you
flash your piece out on the laneman Snatch it from you.
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
He showed it to you, pull up a shirt, and then he
pulled it out and put it at myforehead, and then I'm acting
like this tough guy, like ohyeah boy trigger.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
No, did you ever see this cab driver again?
Speaker 2 (18:48):
No, well, the funny thing was I didn't like there
was, the neighbors saw it.
It was that, like you know, 5,36 o'clock in the morning, so
people are going to work.
Yeah, I'm just coming in.
You're getting Executed by acab driver.
Yeah, so people would saw itand cops came and I had a fill
out a report and everything.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
That's wild.
How long ago was that?
Because it just in height oftoday, being April 2023.
I've read five or six storiesin the last week of Just
Extremely scared people shootingother people, of mistaken
doorknocks, getting into thewrong car to cheerleaders shot,
(19:31):
one killed.
This was like two days ago andI'm seeing this rev up on the
media, like In Florida.
I don't know if you're payingattention to it, I was just, it
just seems relevant of howquickly people are not only show
a gun of the.
I mean, these are just peopleopening fire.
The guy down in Was it Ohio kidknocked on the wrong door
(19:55):
looking for his brother.
You just shot him.
Yeah, just open the door andshot him.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
What do you say?
I mean, that's more like whatdo you think about that as far
as?
Speaker 1 (20:05):
It's someone sitting, you know, maybe they have rate
racist tendencies, for whateverreasons their, their culture,
they're limited background,education, socioeconomics, where
you're raised, what year you'reborn, who your family is.
This kind of creates, well,what's in your mind?
I'm so you can't escape it likethese these elements are and
(20:27):
variables are chosen for you.
Yeah, it's.
Can you break free from them soyou're not running through a
life fucking terrified all thetime, right?
So now this guy's in his like60s this is how I'm kind of
perceiving it.
He's sitting there just fuckinggetting hammered by the news
all day.
Yeah, that you know immigrantsare raiding in at untold numbers
(20:48):
.
Eventually they're gonna whatcome to his door and take his,
his soup and I Don't knowwhatever.
You know madness reigns insomeone's head.
Yeah, from your fears.
So it's not just what the newsis saying, it's what you project
the world's going to be.
Yeah, like it's you completingthe news story.
(21:10):
I know how it ends.
Yeah, like it's gonna be a war.
It's gonna be a race war.
Yeah, like this.
You know these are the fuckingminds just being poisoned so we
could watch the same newsproduct and one guy's getting
reinforced with, like, racistagendas and being scared Now, if
there's a black kid on myportrait ring in his bell,
(21:31):
there's only one reason why hecould be there.
Right, he's gonna rob me andhe's in a gang.
Yeah, we know it, it's blacklives matters now at my house.
Yeah, just to solicit a fightand see it right that it's crazy
.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
Because it's funny now, because I heard something
like we saw a video the otherday about like Bringing the
doorbell, like now versus likeback in the 90s.
Oh, that's a comedian, I think.
Yeah, but like back in the 90s,like you were excited when the
doorbell rang, like you werelike you know it's one of your
friends, or, but now it's likeyou turn off all the lights, you
hide, it's like crazy.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, yeah.
And in person contact, uh it's.
I think it takes more energyfrom people to be present for,
like in person socialengagements.
Mm-hmm, um, it became realcommon.
I even, like 10 years ago, I'dbe hanging with friends.
We could be taxing and halfpaying attention to each other.
(22:27):
You know, if you did that 10years prior to that, it'd be
really rude.
Um, I remember when next tellwould have that two-way beep,
beep, beep in restaurants,people would be offended.
Then it became normal.
Then, you know it's, uh, Ithink there's a pushback now,
when I'm with my wife or we'rewith people, they get all of our
(22:50):
attention.
Mm-hmm, I think people gettired of that.
It's just, it takes so much.
Yeah, it's crazy after the lastthree years some of the
isolation from covet.
You get comfortable not beingaround people.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Yeah, I mean it's, it's bad.
I mean Carly and I were talkingabout it because she had gotten
rid of her, like social mediaand and all that and I don't
have any Social media and Carlyis our master clinician at
fellowship house.
Yeah, she's okay, but like I dohave tiktok, which is still
(23:25):
like it's I, hate that I like itso much.
But Carly purged herself of allof that.
Yeah, and you know, even mebeing on facebook and instagram,
like, I've seen like a mentalchange in as far as like yeah, I
don't care about like, it's sofunny to me now, like looking
back on, like I have to postthis picture of like look at me
(23:47):
at On fucking you know grease.
Like, why do I need, why do Ifeel the need to share that With
everyone?
I have a problem.
Speaker 1 (23:57):
Um, the podcast was a way to combat it.
I could meet the needs of likehow I like, hurted explosion.
But, um, sorry people, there'sexplosions and green ridge
speaking at gunfire.
They're here, they're nowshooting at us.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
They're at the doorbell.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, it's everywhere now Stories, news, my house,
we're shooting.
Well, I don't know, that was myway to combat it because, um,
it has a really strong effect onme.
Um, now, um, that I could feelit.
(24:41):
It lingers for days.
I feel Like almostdisassociation, peeling away
from the phone.
Um, instagram, facebook, I've,I've, I've raced the apps from
my phone and I go on maybe threetimes a week to post the
podcast.
But even if I leave it lingerthat day, I'll be tracking
(25:02):
things, looking for things orI'll be scrolling on.
I don't have tiktok, but I dothe reels on instagram.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
Yeah same thing.
They're awesome, I mean it'sjust.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
It's really bad because it's nothing I need to
be giving my my time to.
No, I have a lot to do, yeah,um, and a lot of people need my
attention.
Yeah, and I could be somewherefor 15 minutes.
I could be looking in themorning before I could be
meditating or doing something tostart my day, go down to the
gym and I could.
(25:35):
15 minutes just gone and I'mwatching weird shit.
Yeah it's weird stuff, thinkingit's hilarious, but I'm like,
what am I doing like this?
I didn't make a willfuldecision or plan that to be part
of my day.
It's just frightening to thinkthe commodity is my attention
and I just sold it to someone.
I just gave it to them.
(25:55):
They're exploiting my.
My frontal lobe is gone.
That's the real fear for me atthe sense of AI rising up and
running these these things.
If it had its own goals, wewouldn't even know you're being
spun out.
I'm not even saying it has tobe a robot.
We're not even talking about Amanifestation of some AI in a
(26:17):
singular machine.
Just just now.
It influences us tremendously.
It rewards lies.
It's already trained tomanipulate humans and scare them
and spread false information.
It just frightens me the threethings you shouldn't have done
with super systems like that,like Instagram and all these
(26:38):
models and these.
The rise of AI.
Ai Is teach it about humanpsychology or cognition or
emotion.
It knows how to manipulatehumans.
There was one thing you shouldnever do to AI.
They said that in the 60s.
The second thing is put itonline.
Right, and now it's pervasively, could get into anything.
(26:59):
If it's going to be a superintelligence and super
intelligence is it's unhuman.
It would be alien.
Yeah our own cognition.
And then the third thing is uh,Never teach it psychology,
Don't put it online and neverteach it and train it in code,
(27:22):
writing code.
Now this is what would makeitself generating.
I know we went off on a tangenthere and I did on my last
podcast, but it's a.
It's scary, it's the news thathas my full attention, because I
love existential crisis, yeah,but this one's really unique and
some people are really scared.
Some people are really happyand I've been trying to listen
(27:45):
to yeah, I would love to yeahwear the guardrails on this, but
it's hard to imagine AI beinggreat.
I believe them.
If they're great, it's gotguardrails and it doesn't become
conscious.
What I don't believe is, if itis conscious and you don't align
it right, you're all dead.
If there's no escape from it,we are just prey to whatever its
(28:08):
will.
Is we already?
I've just spent 15 minutesevery morning.
Any morning, I could be victimto my own phone my own attention
and I didn't make a decision todo that.
It's weird.
Speaker 2 (28:22):
It's bad, it's horrible.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Well, let's get back to your life story, now that AI
has taken into this it is AI.
But when did your addictionstart to jeopardize what you're
really good at and what youreally enjoy is golf, and you're
a pro.
And how did you lose that?
(28:47):
How does one lose that becauseof an addiction?
And how do you realize what'shappening to you?
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I don't know.
I think when I turned 21 and Ihad gotten my first pro job is
when it really took a downfall.
But as far as the game itself,that's a love that I will always
have and I always did, becausethat was my escape of everything
(29:16):
.
It was kind of like my drug ina way.
But I had gotten my first projob when I was 21 and I think
that kind of shot my ego throughthe roof when all my friends
were still in school and I had agolf pro job making I don't
(29:37):
know.
It was like 30, 35 grand a yearand I thought it was a million
bucks.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
Yeah, man, that's a real shot of pride, identity, a
payout from all the time spentwith golf.
Now you're a pro.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Yeah, but I had gotten 2 DUIs during that time,
back to back within a month andI would show up late all the
time and that job probablylasted I don't know like six to
eight months and I got fired.
But I quickly found another oneand it was just kind of the
(30:15):
same pattern throughout my wholecareer and I just kind of went,
I bounced around and then therewas just one job opportunity
that opened up in Florida.
And prior to that, that's whenNovak lived with me and my
brother and my mom and mybrother had gotten me and him
(30:39):
gotten to a very big argumentand it's crazy looking back at
it now.
I was going to work and he wascoming in from a bender and him
and I got in this big argumentand he went to rehab that day
and stayed sober ever since then.
Speaker 1 (30:59):
Did you have any definition in your mind of what
recovery was, or had friends orpeople disappear in your life?
Which treatment prior to yourbrother?
Speaker 2 (31:08):
I mean Novak went before him, but I knew a couple
of my friends but I didn'treally have a working idea of
what recovery was.
Speaker 1 (31:17):
I had no idea what AA was, let alone no, no
definition of addiction.
No, not at all.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
I didn't think I had a problem whatsoever at that
point.
It took me a very long time tokind of realize that.
But I was taking money from mymom and I didn't want to face it
.
And she called me.
I didn't want to face thatconversation.
So that was kind of a move forme to kind of go down to Florida
(31:46):
and escape everyone, includingmy family members and we were
talking about that the other daywhere I kind of cut off
communication with everyone.
There would kind of be spurtshere and there, like with my dad
, but it sucked because my momwould send me.
She would have people come overthat I knew in Florida and she
(32:10):
also knew, and they woulddeliver me birthday cakes that
my mom would purchase.
I never once did I shoot her atext and say thank you or
anything, because I still feltso guilty and shameful of what I
did.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
It is guilt and shame .
If you don't mind if I could prya little in, the sense you said
your ego exploded when you gotthe position as your first golf
pro position.
You get a salary, young guy,most people it could be pride.
It won't be, just say, an ego.
(32:46):
But ego is distinct.
It's this idea of this persona,this mask that I'm creating,
this manufactured identity, andfor some people that have trauma
and addiction, the line isreally blurry of where this true
sense of self or authenticityof self is versus the ego we
(33:09):
manufacture.
And I relate to this profoundlybecause I feel like I designed
an ego before I had apersonality.
Just because of circumstancesthat you can't control, what you
raised up, an ego rises up todefend a person from a reality
that's just too painful, likethis personality.
So do you think some of thiscould have been the
(33:31):
confrontation of now being justwhat could be called a thief,
not an addict?
You took money.
That's just too painful forsomeone to say no.
This is not how I think ofmyself, because I don't think of
you as a thief.
But addiction can make usjustify all these strange
patterns that we would alwaysfind immoral to do.
(33:54):
But we'll never look at it asthat as we're doing it.
And do you think isolatingyourself for that period down in
Florida was that was just toopainful to come to terms.
If you admit it to that, you'readmitting to a serious problem.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
Right, yeah, well, yeah, I think so.
I think that was, yeah, I mean,and that's the thing too, where
it's just like when I was doingthat, like my parents didn't
raise me like that either, whereit's just like I didn't really
know well, I didn't want to knowthe extent of like what problem
I had.
I didn't want to hear it, but,yeah, I didn't want to face
(34:32):
reality and the funny thing isit's actually I never.
I was thinking about this theother day where I lived with
someone in Florida and theywouldn't he didn't charge me
rent, but he lived with hisfiance and he was in the program
too.
I had no idea what the fuck hewas and I just knew he was gone
(34:53):
for a while when I first startedthis job and he came back and
because he was in rehab.
But yeah, he said he was in theprogram and all this stuff.
I'm like oh, good for you andit's funny.
It's not funny.
But, like you know, we were atthe bar one day and he was there
and with some of our workfriends and we were doing coke
(35:14):
and he decided to do some blowwith us and he relapsed that and
I didn't know the extent.
I'm like, oh yeah, it was allright Without a drink.
Speaker 1 (35:22):
Without a drink.
They've only known a couplepeople to do that and they're
dangerous.
Yeah, but it's just, I didn'tlast long.
No, but the guy that's like,yeah, like he doesn't, he didn't
prime himself for like fourbeers or a scotch.
You're just bumping lines ofcoke without a drink in your
hand.
I don't know.
I keep my eye on that guy myentire drinking career.
(35:43):
The guy who's doing cocainewithout having a few drinks.
I'm watching him because he'sgoing to be a problem.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Well, he didn't, he was perfectly fine.
And it's crazy because he, Imean, granted, only lasted maybe
two months and then he starteddrinking again, but I didn't
again.
I didn't know like the extentof it.
I'm like, oh yeah, dude, if youjust do coke, like that's fine,
Like just don't drink alcohol.
That was your problem, right,Like I had.
I was so oblivious to any ofthat, yeah, midnight advice.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, To do it just do it like Freud, just do it out
of the intellectual interest ofcocaine.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
Listen to me.
I've only had about an eighthof James and then a eight bomb
at this point.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
How does that that journey down to Florida end?
Speaker 2 (36:32):
I had found a job in North Carolina and we that was
like the only job I left on goodterms with and they actually
offered me more money to stayand I was.
He can offer me $100,000 orprobably wouldn't stay, but I've
always wanted to end up inNorth Carolina and end up
working down there, and that wasshort lived too.
(36:56):
I kind of quickly, you know Ikind of Starting to drink it, I
was drinking, I was gettingprostitutes, I would you know, I
graduated to crack you know awhile back, but Did that
expedite things pretty quickly?
Oh yeah, it was bad, and we were.
I was talking about this theother day too, or you know, I
(37:17):
was gonna pay it bi-weekly and Ihated it when I wasn't sober.
It is because, like I wouldspend that entire paycheck and
then three days two days, ohyeah, overnight, yeah, and I
wouldn't have money for 13 days?
Yeah, so like, and that killedme.
But and how about cigarettes?
Did you smoke cigarettes?
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Oh yeah, yeah, how you get into a pack like that's.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
I would have people from work.
Just I'm gonna say I'll get you.
Speaker 1 (37:40):
Unaverage if you could smoke all that you you
regularly smoke.
Is it 20 cigarettes a day?
Speaker 2 (37:45):
No, I actually don't smoke a pack a day.
I probably smoke, you know, 10,15.
Speaker 1 (37:50):
You know cigarettes are designed like by dosage,
length and and by the pack to be20 cigarettes a day, because
withdrawal starts immediatelyafter you put it out and full
withdrawal would be an hour.
Oh great after you haveextinguished a cigarette.
So on average, the whole designand metric of 20 cigarettes is
(38:13):
to make sure all smokers wouldwant to like every hour Could
smoke a cigarette every hour,yeah, not more, wow.
Yeah, well, I make sure youguys.
13 days to figure out how toget you know, 1300 smokes.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
So I suck man it.
And during that I got kickedout.
I was living with a buddy ofmine who worked at a different
course.
He was on, he was on thegrounds crew at another course.
But I couldn't stick up withrent.
It was, I think it was only,like you know, six or 800 bucks.
I had to pay, but I couldn'tafford a big double, you know so
(38:48):
.
So I lived out of my car forabout six months and, you know,
thankfully I had.
You know, I worked at a golfcourse where they had locker
rooms and showers so I wouldshower there in the six months,
was it.
Speaker 1 (39:00):
what seasons is it?
Spring, summer, was it?
Speaker 2 (39:04):
it was, I think, fall .
Yeah, it was, and it suckedbecause I I would have to kind
of put the heat on and turn offmy car, and sometimes I wouldn't
turn off my car.
I'll forget.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
How did you get you?
When did you get used tosleeping in your car, to the
fact it wasn't painful everynight?
Speaker 2 (39:22):
I don't think I don't think I used to it so man it
was fucking tough because, like,even then I couldn't Did anyone
know you were living in the car.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
Were you hiding this for the majority of the people
that were in your like circle inNorth Carolina?
Were you?
Speaker 2 (39:39):
no one knew as far as people in North Carolina, I
would tell them I was staying ina hotel.
Speaker 1 (39:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (39:46):
There was a couple times where I did.
I asked, like the headpro, if Icould stay with them and and he
offered, he was like he'd staywith me until you find a place
and I just, I just, wanted to dothat.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
Yeah, you might want to.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
You might fuck it up too right, because I'm walking
in at five o'clock in themorning, you know after you know
Doing drugs all night man right, that's I'm, I'm, I'm in.
Speaker 1 (40:11):
That's intense to walk around, that's fear, it's
just total fear, shame, anxiety,anxiety out of control by that.
Oh yeah, yeah I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
Yeah, the Walmart parking lot was really where I
stayed and there was McDonald'sright there, so I'll kind of
scrape up.
I would literally scrape up,you know, like you know,
quarters and stuff to try to geta meat chicken or whatever but,
yeah, for those two weeks whereI didn't get paid it was.
It sucked.
Speaker 1 (40:40):
Did you have a cell phone, mm-hmm yeah when the
loneliness would drive in, andyou know I have a lot of friends
and people I've known reallywell that have ended up homeless
in various ways, from a car tonot having a place to live,
going house to house to straightto the streets of Kensington.
There's something that's justbrutal.
(41:01):
It's loneliness, and it willarise, you know, until you
totally lose a sense of yourself.
It'll rise every day.
Mm-hmm.
When would that happen to you?
Would it be in that parking lot?
Would it?
Would you be tempted andcompelled to just call someone
and say Fucking, this gotta end,like what restrained you from
(41:21):
calling home, or I think?
Speaker 2 (41:22):
it was just like Just fear of not having the
conversation, but I eventuallydid, you know, I eventually did
call my mom and I told my workthat I needed some time.
I don't know how long it'sgonna be, it could be forever, I
don't know but I just wanted togo home and sleeping in a
fucking bed and so, yeah, I dideventually move back up here and
(41:48):
I haven't seen my mom and Idon't know three, four, five
years or something like that,and so that was a very emotional
moment, you know, especiallyfor her.
But I think, really, where thedepression hit was, you know, I
had gotten a job after I got myfirst job.
You know, I had gotten a jobafter that too, and but I got
(42:08):
gotten far from that job too,from stealing money from there.
But I had something, what theycall that clinical depression,
where I would I literally stayedin my room for Probably six
months, maybe a little bit more.
Yeah, I Wouldn't get up.
I guess I the only time I wouldget up was to get food and I
would literally pee out thefucking window because I was too
(42:30):
afraid to face anybody.
That's crippling.
You know, I lived with mybrother, um, he was sober and he
was in the program and, um, youknow my mom was there, but you
know she would come in check onme every now and again.
But I, I did not want to faceanybody because I didn't know, I
thought my life was doneBecause I had just broken up
with a girlfriend.
(42:50):
I lost my job, my dream jobthat I had.
Um, I was facing a third DUIthe time, um, and you know I
have this like stigma that I I'ma thief because I stole money
from a club that you know Tofeed my addiction really.
But um it, I didn't know whereto go from there.
(43:13):
I was so fucking lost tonightto the point like my lawyer kept
on like continuing the courtdate until I went to treatment
and um yeah, I, I was Stillgoing.
I would go out in the middle ofthe night to go on a little bit
of a binge.
You know, my mom would give mea couple hundred bucks but I
(43:33):
would stay out for Three days ata time and um well, that sucks.
Speaker 1 (43:37):
They're not fun to come back to that after three
days.
They crawl back into your mom'shouse.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
Yeah, it was bad and um, you know it that was, I met
someone else on this dating appand, um, in a way, she saved my
life.
In a way, um, because Iattempted suicide.
I um Kind of had enough.
I, you know, I had stole fromthe girl I was talking to and,
(44:03):
um, I decided I wrote a wholebunch of uh letters on paper
towers with a sharpie and, um,the place I was at, I I had a
whole bunch of there was a wholebunch of Advil there, so I just
started like chewing them.
It's corny, it's gonna soundcorny but like she's desperation
.
Yeah, but she's.
(44:23):
She sent me this like our songthat we used to listen to, like
while I was chewing the fuckingpills, and, um, I just spit them
out right away when she sent itto me and um, but that was just
the moment where I just kind ofgave up and I was surrounded by
a whole bunch of cops and um, Ihad a warrant out for my arrest
(44:44):
from stealing from my job whichI had no idea I had.
Um, and this cop was like youknow this cop, by the way, like
you saying that he knows you,I'm like I don't know anybody
over there.
I don't know what you're talkingabout, but this cop that used
to come by the club that Iworked at Him and I became
pretty good friends and he's theone that picked me up oh my god
(45:04):
, great Like this is the lastperson I want to see right now.
But um, he, uh, he gave me ahug and just said you know, I
want to see you here again, youknow, but I had to go to
treatment to take after that,but yeah, well, what?
Speaker 1 (45:22):
brings you to scranton.
Yeah, scranton, I, uh, I had a.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
I relapsed, uh.
But um, going to, I had a scareat.
You know, I was kind of heldhostage in a way and um, you
know, the first go around ittook me a while to kind of get
into treatment.
But this one I had, you know, Iwas kind of like I needed, I
need to do it.
But, um, after what I just wentthrough and um, um, yeah, I uh
(45:52):
going through that whole Stage,it it's hard to even believe
that I, you know, kind of wentthrough something like that.
It it's weird to say even now.
But, um, I was trying to reallycontrol things.
My first go around I thought Iknew it all.
(46:14):
I was a house manager at onepoint Coming here.
It was really weird how I endedup here.
I went to Clear Brook inMassachusetts because every 20
days I came up to they tried tosend me to Langhorn, which is a
(46:36):
PHP for Banyan.
I was going to go there.
I want to go to Clear Brookdown there.
I thought they did PHP theretoo and they didn't.
But they're like, oh well, wefound this place called Mountain
Teg.
It's pretty new.
I'm like, all right, fuck it.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
I'll do that.
That's by Elks Mountain here Atthis point, just like if
someone was listening.
You're continuing with carehere, you get detoxed.
You got 28, 30 days ininpatient treatment From there.
You want to go for furthertreatment and that could be up
to more 90 days what you'recalling a PHP partial
(47:12):
hospitalization program.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
Yeah, I didn't know it was 90 days, I thought it was
30 days.
I went up to my counselor andshe was like, how long does it
stay here?
Like 30?
She's like, well, we recommend90.
I'm like I'll do 90.
That's what.
It was really different thistime.
I was really willing to doanything to get help.
Yeah, so I did the 90 there andI experienced something.
(47:41):
One of my best friends diedwhile I was in treatment there
and that kind of killed me,because he came and visited me a
couple weeks prior to his death, weeks leading into it.
I was on the phone with himevery day, trying to get him to
actually come up to Mountain'sEdge, because there was a guy
(48:06):
there that has been to 37treatments and he said this is
by far the best place I've everbeen to, and it truly is.
I mean, as much as I hate togive Joe Kane a lot of credit
here, but that whole him andthat whole staff there really
changed my life, joe.
Speaker 1 (48:25):
Kane's, the clinical director of Mountain's Edge.
Speaker 2 (48:29):
But the groups that they run there.
It's something short of amazing.
It's really intimate and it'ssomething that it's really hard
to explain.
He's one of the best cliniciansin the world.
Speaker 1 (48:46):
It's incredible.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
It's crazy and it's funny to see here people like oh
, I fucking hate him, like well,it's probably for a reason.
Speaker 1 (48:57):
But well, hate requires passion, so there's
passion involved in there.
Speaker 2 (49:02):
It's just he calls people out in their bullshit and
people just don't like that.
But going through that, I meanit was really they.
Let me go to the funeral for mybest friend.
I think that whole time thatfuneral really hurt, like it
(49:23):
seared into my brain, because Ihad my mom sitting next to me
and when the priest gave my momor his mom the ashes, my mom
kept on saying like don't dothis to me, don't do this to me.
Speaker 1 (49:35):
Did you feel sober there?
Like, what was your feelingthere?
That would be different fromnot being sober, just being dry,
because you went there withfull intentions to grieve and in
pain.
But how would you describefeeling sober at that moment,
matt?
Like what does that mean there?
Even though you're sad and ingrief, did you feel vulnerable
(50:00):
to drinking?
Speaker 2 (50:01):
or relapsing?
No, I didn't.
It's funny because after thefuneral, I went to the you know
they have gathering after wherethey all drink, and it was.
We're just looking at peopleand like they're all drinking
and I like saw it from like adifferent perspective.
Like I'm, like man, that's whatI would.
(50:24):
I would drink myself to deathright now, like this was five
months ago, you know, sure,because like, but it was like
that just moment of clarity, oflike they're doing that to numb
the pain that they're currentlyin and unfortunately, I don't
get to have any of those, Idon't I get to feel it, which I
became like grateful to kind offeel that now, in a way, just to
(50:50):
feel feelings, whether that'shappiness, sadness, anger, you
know, I'm kind of grateful toenable to like go through those
feelings and really experiencethem all you know, because I
wasn't.
I haven't been really used todoing that for, you know, like a
decade, you know.
Speaker 1 (51:11):
So I would you describe the last three months
of really getting your sea legsin recovery, Because how long
are you sober?
Speaker 2 (51:19):
now Almost 11 months.
Speaker 1 (51:22):
Almost a year is coming up soon.
Speaker 2 (51:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (51:25):
And a year.
It took a year of fulltreatment.
There's not much you haven'tdone towards your recovery is
the PHP.
Afterwards you went to kind ofinstill an intensive outpatient
program, live in a recoveryhouse, and that's when I got to
meet you and I've known you nowsince September.
Speaker 2 (51:45):
Yeah, I mean it's funny because I think I've told
you this.
But I mean I've heard you speakat a meeting and you know I
kind of always had.
You know, I was like I reallylike to ask them to be my
sponsor and then, like I didn'tsee at some of the meetings and
then I saw you at Willow house.
I was like get the fuck out ofhere, just like a, you know,
fucking perfect moment.
There's that psycho.
Speaker 1 (52:06):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (52:07):
I've been fucking looking for you.
But yeah, I mean the trains.
I had no intention of stayingin Scranton at all.
I had zero until about like twoweeks of my discharge at.
Speaker 1 (52:20):
Mountain.
Speaker 2 (52:20):
Zedge, and then one of my good friends, dj.
You know he went there.
We talked to Larry and I waslike, all right, well, I'll try
it out.
You know I'm not going to staythere long probably, but I'll
give it a shot on as well.
But it's changed a lot, youknow, since I first got in there
(52:43):
.
But I think it's all positivesin a way, but it'll be a lot
more changes soon.
Speaker 1 (52:49):
I mean your patient zero man Golf pro to patient
zero, that'll be the name of thestuff.
Speaker 2 (52:56):
But now it's been, it's a.
Really it's funny because everysober house I've only been to
two, but like every one they'vebeen like brand new.
So like I've been in, likeyou've only been in brand new
sober houses, yeah, wow, andthey're all like, they all need
help and they all which is good,you know, but you know it's a.
At Novak house it was more likethey had one house and then
(53:20):
they started getting more andthen that was a house.
Speaker 1 (53:22):
They didn't have outpatient services per se right
there.
It was more peer to peer.
Speaker 2 (53:27):
12 step oh, yes and no.
I mean, brandon was part of aband in, so that's right.
Yeah, he worked.
He wanted us to do IOP forBanyan, but it was all on zoom,
so you didn't have to you couldhave went somewhere off site if
you wanted to, but he pushedpeople and most people did,
which was cool.
We kind of all did it at ahouse as a house, and but it was
(53:50):
a 90 day thing and that's agood way to run a recovery house
.
Speaker 1 (53:55):
Well, like, why be a recovery house?
You're just an apartmentbuilding If you're not
initiating a the tenants to bein some level of care outpatient
, iop, I mean, what's thestandard then?
Like this this is a place toget better, get more therapeutic
measures to help you outside ofpeer to peer.
I agree that everyone in arecovery house should be in a
(54:17):
level of care.
Speaker 2 (54:17):
Oh, yeah, for sure.
And it I mean I tell you whatthe IOP for Banyan.
I hated it.
I just didn't think the levelof care was that good.
But I think it's really coolwhat you guys are doing, just as
far as, like you know, becausemost overhouses do require you
to do IOP and but they're alloff site you know, so this one,
(54:41):
you get to walk down stairs andyou're in IOP Go time, yeah,
which is cool, and I think thegroups are good and they're more
you were talking about it acouple weeks ago but, like, as
far as like the shares thatpeople are having now in those
groups, you know, I mean they'reyounger kids and they're very,
you know, intimate, intimate.
Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, very safe, and I really I am surprised at how
people have responded to notonly the groups some of the
lectures of how we position whataddiction is the trauma based,
informed ideas of addiction andthe meditation of impasana that
(55:26):
we practiced.
I couldn't believe.
You know, some people may maynot like it, but the people that
have.
I was just surprised by itbecause it's usually an act for
me, it was an act of desperationto make it part of my lifestyle
, but I think some people reallygelled with it.
Speaker 2 (55:44):
Yeah, no, I agree it's.
It's funny because I've been tolike maybe two meditation
groups this whole time.
Speaker 1 (55:54):
Yeah, you only go to the first one.
Speaker 2 (55:56):
I only go to your group, joe, yeah.
Speaker 1 (55:58):
Yeah, you missed a good meditation.
Last week we had a.
Were you there for the comment?
My, don't look up meditation.
Speaker 2 (56:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (56:08):
It was more of a visualization.
Charlie and I are trying toflush it out into.
It's a good tool to see what isat the surface of the top top
of mind of your desires.
17 days left on earth and weexplore some means of what you
would do even in early recovery.
Given the chance to be withloved ones who wouldn't be there
(56:31):
, given that wouldn't forgiveyou for whatever, wherever your
broken relationships are, wouldyou relapse under this plight
and an ism that, like we're allgetting destroyed anyways,
mm-hmm?
Would you be driven to get laidRevenge?
Some people wanted to getrevenge.
It was crazy.
And then on day 17.
(56:51):
We said it, with 18 days in,the comet hits, day 17, the
comet misses, and you know nowwho are you Like if you just
total nihilistic approach to theend.
We have to stand in Judgment ofourselves, of what was priority
.
Who did we become under thiscrisis?
Mm-hmm and you know you reallyhave to paint the visualization
(57:16):
and we took our time for an hourto do it, and breathing, and
this group has been together fora while now, so it wasn't just
a cold audience, there was likenine of us.
It was wild what some of theseanswers were really.
Yeah, and you know, especiallyfor the fathers in the room-
yeah of where they are, and whatyou target, then, is where your
(57:37):
men's need to be.
Yeah and why would you need?
There's always a fuckingcomment coming for us if you're
an alcoholic or a drug addict orhave substance use disorder,
your fears are comets.
You, you manufacture Suchtremendous fears and shame that
you'll relapse at any givenmoment with this unbridled brain
.
Yeah, so, first off, the cometdidn't kill us, so we always
(58:00):
have this fake comet that'sgonna kill and ruin our lives in
our world.
But in that time, what did youabandon and what can't you fix,
or what did you run from?
This is where your recoveryshould be focused on.
Yeah, these are therelationships to that can heal
and Doing so you have recovery.
Speaker 2 (58:18):
Yeah, yeah, it's kind of how you go through the steps
to, in a way, yeah, we havethose ten big ones and you know
it's you know going through thatand it's it's cool.
Well, you know you kind ofperceive that and but yeah, it's
yeah.
Well, mainly we make them outof a moho 100% of time really
(58:39):
well at that point.
Speaker 1 (58:40):
The other reason that worked I have put these tubes
up the lining of the wall andI've been able to just fill half
the room with nitrous.
Let us begin, gentlemen.
I Am glad to have met you.
We're coming up at an hour andI'm gonna have you back on.
(59:02):
But right, the reason I wantedto have you on a Getting to know
you the last couple months andseeing recovery just transform
your life, your relationships,you making hard decisions and
experiencing grief and loss inlove, all within 11 months and
not having to drink andrealizing, you know, drugs and
(59:26):
alcohol weren't your problem.
They were.
They were a failed solution.
It's so hard to let go ofsomething that almost works
drugs and alcohol, yeah.
And to see you see that youknow Come to be a total fact in
your life here and what you'vedone for our house and how
you've inspired people there, Iam grateful.
(59:46):
I'm glad you came on Well,thank you.
Speaker 2 (59:49):
It's my pleasure, it's a.
It's been a shitty year andit's been a great year, but
that's what.
Speaker 1 (59:55):
That's what theater is masks you gotta I get to use.
I forget to use sound effects.
Speaker 2 (01:00:08):
But I love it, man.
Oh, thank you Joseph.
Speaker 1 (01:00:14):
I'd like to thank you for listening to another
episode of all better.
To find us on all better FM, orlisten to us on Apple podcast,
spotify, google podcast stitcher, I heart radio and Alexa.
Special thanks to our producer,john Edwards, an engineering
(01:00:36):
company, 570 drone.
Please like or subscribe to uson YouTube, facebook, instagram
or Twitter and, if you're not,on social media, you're awesome.
Looking forward to seeing youagain.
And remember, just becauseyou're sober doesn't mean you're
(01:00:56):
right.
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