Are You Following God… or Just Chasing a Feeling?

Are you following God—or just chasing a feeling? 

In this episode, we dive into the tension between authentic faith and the pursuit of emotional experiences, exploring how to discern God’s voice from your own feelings. 

Discover practical guidance for spiritual growth, finding balance between head, heart, and will, and understanding the role that emotions have in your Christian journey.

Welcome to Season 6 Episode 14 of the podcast. Subscribe to the Allison Park Leadership Podcast for more culture-creating conversations.

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
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@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
And what role do feelings play in my spiritual

(00:03):
walk to follow Jesus? You hearabout a lot of churches and
movements that are just seekingan emotional experience, and
that's a dangerous thing,because you're gonna miss God.
But are emotions a bad thing? Imean, obviously God made us. He
made the heart made emotions,but maybe they're not always
trustworthy. At the very end, ifyou wanna stay tuned, we're
going to talk about, actuallywhat it looks like to hear God,
because sometimes it's hard todistinguish what God sounds

(00:26):
like, as opposed to ourfeelings. So if you want to hear
more, stay tuned. Hey everybody.
Welcome to the Allison Parkleadership podcast, where we
have our culture creatingconversations. My name is Dave
and my

Jeff Leake (00:37):
name is Jeff, and we're glad you've joined us
today. Do we have any shout outsto offer people today as we get
started?

Dave Leake (00:43):
Yeah, as always, we just want to give a big old
thank you to everybody who'sbeen a part of the show
listening, if you've been on fora while, you know, as part of
our podcast family, we want tosay welcome and thank you. And
today, we want to give a specialshout out to Maggie Mimi 25 for
your five star review and Applepodcast. Podcasts, thank you so

(01:03):
much. And if you would like aspecific shout out, I hear this
all the time. I don't know howto leave a podcast review. It's
okay, but if you can do it atApple podcast, we'll see your
name, and we would love to shoutyou

Jeff Leake (01:13):
out and on YouTube, Like and Subscribe. So Dave and
I are father and son. That'spart of what makes this podcast
work. We're also both on staffat Allison Park church for at
least the next six weeks, andthen Dave moves to Jacksonville
to start a brand new churchthere next year, 2026 and so
what are we talking about today,Dave? Let's dive right in to our

(01:33):
conversation. One

Dave Leake (01:34):
of our listener questions has recently been,
what's the role of feelings inmy spiritual walk?

Jeff Leake (01:42):
Yeah, it's a good question. It's one that I
haven't actually ponderedrecently, but especially, I
think in Pentecostal charismaticcircles, one of the critiques of
our stream of things tends to bethat it's emotional. It's hyper
emotional, it's hyped up. It'sjust all about feelings. It

(02:03):
doesn't produce any kind offruit. And yet, at the same
time, I think everybody wouldrecognize that there is some
kind of a role that feelingsplay within your daily life. You
want to feel connected to God,you want to feel inspired, you
want to feel joy and peace, allof those things. So I guess the
balance comes in. And by theway, I'll just mention we love

(02:25):
it when we get listenersuggested topics. So if you do
have a something you want us totalk about, we'd love to to
cover that. So where do we gowith this? Where do we start?
Dave,

Dave Leake (02:36):
yeah, well, I think, I think that's probably, I think
one of the things you mentionedis that it's often a criticism
of the movements either that webelong to or that are sort of
adjacent to us, maybe a littlefurther down certain roads in
some ways, in terms of justwanting to have, you know, the
criticism is wanting to have anemotional experience with God,

(02:57):
right? And I guess, to start,we've sort of maybe talked about
this a little bit, but it mightnot be bad for us to discuss.
You know, there are differentsort of leanings within
churches, you know, before weeven get into, like, the role of
feelings we talk about at APC,you know, the head, the heart
and the will, right? And I thinkthere are different churches

(03:20):
that tend to lean in differentfocuses. So one, we're talking
about a head based thing.
There's not as much criticismaround that, but it's, it's
knowledge of the Word of God.
It's, it's logic and reason.
It's understanding. It'sstudying and memorizing
Scripture, all this kind ofthing. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (03:34):
churches and streams of churches that aim towards the
head are interested, often intheological orthodoxy. They want
to make sure that they arecorrect there. They want to make
sure that they're alignedbiblically, that they are
functioning in the context ofthe word, that they're properly
interpreting what the Scriptureteaches, and that their doctrine

(03:58):
and lifestyle is aligned withobjective truth, which I would
say a lot of that is veryvaluable. Bless you, Dave, very
important as a part of things.
But I think for any stream we'regoing to talk about is that you
have to have a combination ofall right, so a lot of that
stuff's good. Yeah, that'sgreat. Head only. If all you're
aiming for is the head, thenyou're probably going to be

(04:21):
missing something. Missingsomething,

Dave Leake (04:23):
right? And Proverbs says, Knowledge puffs up, yeah?
So knowledge without action oran outflow is just an inflow
that doesn't lead to anything,

Jeff Leake (04:30):
yeah? So like the book of James says, even the
demons believe, and they'reafraid and they shutter like one
God, but they're not right withGod. So you can have your head
right, but if your heart's notright, then you're not right. So
okay, so what's the other ones?

Dave Leake (04:48):
Okay, so we talked about, you know, a heart a heart
led Church, which I think isoften associated with emotions
and and spiritual feelings. Youcould say, man. Funky. Put this
on. There we go. All right,yeah, so spiritual feelings, so
typically, I would say thesetend to be places where. And

(05:09):
this isn't a bad thing,necessarily, but it's like where
the desire is to have anencounter with God. And it's,
it's often extensive worshipservices. And it's, you know,
it's, it's hunger, focusedspiritual

Jeff Leake (05:22):
audiences and manifestations of His presence,
right? Yeah, signs and wondersand and, you know, a lot of
inspiration and motivation. Soheart, without head, though, you
can go into a lot of craziness,right? If you're not grounded in
solid, objective truth. You cango into false teaching. You can

(05:44):
become cult like you can. Youcan be manipulated and even
abused if you're, if you're onlyinto the emotions of your
spiritual walk, but not intosomething rooted in truth,

Dave Leake (05:59):
and you can totally misunderstand what the voice of
God is, if you get to that. And

Jeff Leake (06:03):
I think, yeah, that's what we're going to get
to eventually, which is, whatrole do feelings play in my
daily spiritual life? How muchcredence do I give them? You
know, what's the weight that Iput on them versus other things
and making decisions, what roledo they play in me, judging my
effectiveness in my spiritualwalk. I mean, all of these
things are are packaged,

Dave Leake (06:23):
yeah. So, and to finish the sneak preview of
this, feelings play some role inour spiritual journeys, but if
we don't use discernment, well,they can be destructive and even
catastrophic. Okay, so let'skeep going. Then we talk about
this idea of a will basedchurches, which I don't know if
it's a whole stream of churches,not or just a you think that
you've talked about. That you'vetalked

Jeff Leake (06:43):
about it as a so not practice. That's a good
question. Is it a stream ofchurches? Just a unique quality
to who we

Dave Leake (06:49):
are? Well, I think a lot of churches do this, but I
don't know that I've heard ittalked about in a way that you
talk about it as

Jeff Leake (06:54):
much. Yeah. Yeah. So now we've described the soul,
your mind, your will andemotions, right? So, if we are
body, soul and spirit, and ourspirit is that inner part of us
that gets ignited into life atthe moment of salvation, our
body is the temporary person.
You know, outer, outer cloak,tent, the Bible calls it, that

(07:15):
we live in, that this body,anyway, this body, and then
eventually we get an eternalone, right? So, so our soul
remains intact for, foreternity. It's just that the
body becomes new, but, but ourbut, she should say, our person,
right? The spirit, soul andbody. So the sole part of us is
our mind, will and emotions. Wejust start talking about, some
churches lead toward the head.

(07:36):
Others lead toward the heart. Welead toward the will. And the
reason why is, for me, obedienceis the key. It's it's one thing
to understand what's right. It'sanother thing to do it right.
It's another thing that onething to feel what's right. It's
another thing to align yourchoices with what you know to be
the right thing to do, right.
And then the will, the act ofthe will, actually, is what

(07:57):
brings about an activation ofour partnership with God, like
in order for us to be saved, ourwill is involved in US
confessing out loud that Jesusis Lord, right in order for us
to experience the Holy Spirit'swork in our life, we have to
verbalize our worship, like whenwe get out of ourselves and we

(08:17):
begin To praise actively, thatchoice is what changes things.
Hearing and understanding aboutthe importance of forgiveness is
one thing, but saying out loudwith your will I choose to
forgive is the thing thatunlocks your spirit from that
tightness. And I know

Dave Leake (08:34):
we're going on a little bit of a bunny trail, but
just I think this is a goodframework, before we get into
the feelings part, even the ideaof believing there's a there
until, like, it doesn't get to arealm, realm of faith in the
Bible, until it becomes a willthing, yeah?

Jeff Leake (08:49):
Because, well, faith is a conviction that that we
live out of. It's not a feeling,feeling, convictions have
feelings,

Dave Leake (08:56):
but it's also not knowledge. Is what I'm trying to
say, right? No, it's not likebelief. It contains it. A belief
isn't even just knowledge. Like,knowing something to be true is
different than acting on like,because if there's like, I know
this is technically true, but Idon't know if I'm sure enough to
live in it, to actually act outof it, then it hasn't gotten to
the will. It's a head knowledgething of a technicality. Yeah,

(09:19):
so not a real belief. It's

Jeff Leake (09:20):
like, I'm on the top of a mountain and I'm strapped
into the hang glider. Faithknowledge says I understand how
this hang glider

Unknown (09:28):
works. And that would work if I do it. Yeah, it should
work if I do it. Faith

Jeff Leake (09:33):
is, is the moment when you jump right. And so for
us, we tend and then feelingsare like, whatever

Dave Leake (09:41):
the nerves are before and then right after,
yeah, we tend to try to leadtowards the will, because it's a
way to activate all three, inessence, in a way, yes, it is

Jeff Leake (09:51):
like what you understand about the hang
glider, what it feels like tohang glide. Both of those things
come together when you jumpright and you trust the process.
That's the thing. When you trustGod with what you understand and
what you feel at the moment, itall sort of synergizes at that
place where, where your decisionto trust God with something or
believe or give or forgive orwhatever it is, the will tends

(10:15):
to to be the thing thatcrystallizes or connects it all
together.

Dave Leake (10:20):
Okay, so, so let's talk about the role of feelings
now. Yeah. So I think, I thinktraditionally, like in most
streams of churches, the mainthing we would hear about
feelings is, don't trust yourfeelings. Don't let your
feelings lead. You know, if youfollow your heart too much like
the heart is evil, you know,there is a way that seems right

(10:41):
to him, but in the end, it leadsit leads to death. That kind of
a thing, hard is deceitful aboveall else. And who can know?
Yeah, we can get into some ofthose things. I think we want to
talk about the balance, though.
So there's, there's a distrustthat's maybe not the right word,
like, it's not a skepticismeither, but it's a level of like
a grain of salt, a filter weneed to have when it comes to

(11:03):
hearing, you know, feelings ofthe heart or or, you know what
I'm saying, Does that make sensewhen we're trying to discern?
Okay?

Jeff Leake (11:10):
So I think there is the general rule for how we live
our life, which is that feelingsshould not lead great. Okay, so
let's talk about this, and thenthere's the second thing that
you're talking about, which isyou cannot really follow the
Holy Spirit's leading toprophesy or to function in
aggressive faith withoutlearning to feel inwardly what
the Holy Spirit's leadings andpromptings are like. Right? So

(11:34):
in some ways, in some facets ofour walk with God, feelings
should never lead in otherfacets of our walk with God.
Feelings have an enormous roleto play, and us being able to
tune in with the now activity ofthe Holy Spirit's work in our

Dave Leake (11:49):
life. Okay, so let's, can we just start by
talking about where we get inthe Bible beyond the verse we
just quoted, but you know theidea of not letting feelings
lead so like, what I mean? Ihave some verses here that I've
pulled up.

Jeff Leake (12:04):
I have some thoughts, but go ahead. Okay,
well, so the one I

Dave Leake (12:07):
just quoted at the beginning, the second,
Corinthians, five, seven, itsays, like, for we walk by faith
and not by sight. And I thinksight, the idea is, what we
perceive, what we feel, evenit's, it's, you know, it's faith
is, is, you know, the assuranceof things unseen like. So what
faith means, like, even though Ifeel this, I'm going to choose

(12:28):
to believe God at His Wordinstead of how I feel, even
though I feel like I'm hopelessor that there's no way out of
this, I believe that God is ableand that he's gonna come
through, you know, even though,you know, even though I have
lost relationship with a familymember, I believe God wants to
win them back, and I'm gonnachoose to believe they will come
back, even though all naturalsigns. So it's over an

(12:50):
overriding of what we feel orperceive through an act of
faith. Proverbs, three, five andsix is a classic one, trust
Lord, with all your heart, leanon your own understanding and
all your ways knowledge him,you'll make your path straight
so lean, not on your ownunderstanding the idea of but
that seems like a mental thing,and maybe not just a hard thing,
right? You mentioned this one.
Jeremiah, 17, nine, the heart isdeceitful above all things and

(13:14):
beyond cure, who can understandit? That's a, that's a very
direct way of putting that. Imean, we see this all over.
Galatians, 516 walk by theSpirit. You will not gratify the
desires of the flesh. Sometimesfeelings come from the flesh and
its desires aren't good. Romans,86 the mind is governed by

(13:35):
flesh. The mind governed by theflesh is death, but the mind
governed by the Spirit as lifeand peace. I guess that's maybe
a distinction to talk about is,are feelings always a fleshly
thing, an impulse, or arefeeling sometimes a spirit
thing? I

Jeff Leake (13:52):
think there could be either or. Yeah. So I may have
shared this on this podcastbefore, but I remember my dad
sitting down with me andteaching me this. This This was
one of these precious moments Ihad with my father when I was a
teenage, teenager, and I wasjust beginning to follow Christ,
and he had a napkin, and he hesat down and he showed me this
diagram. He so he said, yourlife is like a train with three

(14:16):
cars. Okay. Do you remember metalking about this before? No,
not at all. Okay, so you havefacts, you have faith, and you
have feelings. If you if you letthe feelings be the engine, and
you put your faith in what youfeel, what happened, and you put
let the facts trail behind, thenwhat happens is your life

(14:37):
becomes like a hose that'sunattached, like that is no
one's holding the end. It'slike, all over the place. It's
it's like James chapter one,which says, If you know, if you
lack wisdom, you should ask God.
And he gives generously to allwithout finding fault. But the
one who asks has to believe, orelse he's like the waves of the
sea, blown and tossed by thewind. Okay? So if. You let your

(14:57):
feelings lead your your lifewill be all over the place.
You'll be going crazy. So youhave to put the facts as the
engine and the feelings as thecaboose. And when you put your
feet, faith in your in the factsof God's word, then the
feelings, while they may notalways follow easily, they
eventually catch up. And so Iwould say, like this, Dave, it's

(15:19):
like, um, if, if your feelingsdon't align with the facts of
what God's Word says, then yourfeelings are wrong and they have
to be subjugated or submitted tothe to the truth that we
understand. Right? If yourfeelings align with God's word,
then at that particular moment,we'd say, okay, that's, that's

(15:40):
the wonderful moment when whatwe know to be true based upon
the Scripture and what we feelto be true are are at, you know,
connected at that particularmoment. But a lot of times our
feelings like, I might feel likeGod doesn't love me anymore, but
that's not true, because weunderstand that nothing can
separate me from the love of Godthat is in Christ, Jesus, our

(16:01):
Lord, right? So I may feel likeI'm completely condemned and I
can never be forgiven, but Iknow Romans 81 says There is
therefore now no condemnationfor those in Christ, Jesus. So
my the truth of God's Word, thefacts of God's word, always
override what I feel at thatmoment, right? So facts have to
lead, specifically the factsthat we read in Scripture,

(16:22):
right? Truth? Maybe has to leavetruth. Yeah, facts, truth. But
you know, they're kind ofsimilar, because they're because
it's alliterated facts, makesmore sense. So one more

Dave Leake (16:34):
time it was facts, facts,

Jeff Leake (16:37):
faith and feelings.
Facts. Faith, either the factsof God's Word or your feelings
are going to lead your life. Butif you put your faith in your
feelings, you'll be, you'll beall you'll be, you'll be going
crazy up and down. If you putyour faith in your fat and the
facts, the feelings eventuallywill

Dave Leake (16:51):
follow. Yeah, that's good. Okay? So, um, so we can't
have our feelings lead right?
What other roles do they play?
Like, how else do we filterthrough this?

Jeff Leake (17:04):
Yeah. So, you know, it's interesting. I just
preached a message Dave onDaniel chapter five, about the
moment when Belshazzar, the kingof Babylon, was using the
instruments of the temple toworship the gods of gold. So he
took the holy, consecratedvessels, and he was using them

(17:26):
to party with, yeah? And Godsends a hand to write on the
wall, and Daniel comes andinterprets what was written on
the wall, which basically is astatement of judgment against
belshazzen Wade and foundwanting. Yeah, I'm going to give
your kingdom to somebody elseneeds in the Persians. Yeah.
What was what? It was reallyinteresting. And I shared this
in the messages Belshazzarresponse was completely feeling

(17:49):
based, because what he does ishe gives Daniel gold, and he
promotes him into a place ofhonor. But he never repents, and
the chapter ends with that nighthe dies, and his kingdom is
passed to somebody else. Yep,and I think it's very common in
our especially in the context ofcultural Christianity, that

(18:12):
people hear messages and theyfeel convicted about what they
hear, and they feel like becausethey felt a moment of guilt or a
moment of inspiration ormotivation that that's kind of
enough, and they don't actuallychange. They leave and they say,
Oh, what a great service. What agreat worship moment. You know,

(18:33):
man, that word was that word waspenetrating, but without action.
You don't, you don't reallychange. And there's so I
actually think sometimes inmotivational situations, we can
receive ministry, and theministry we receive can go
nowhere, because all we havedone is felt something. We

(18:54):
haven't actually, we actuallyhaven't altered anything.

Dave Leake (18:58):
Yeah, you know, that's actually like that
happens to a number of differentpeople in the Bible, where they
have a message and they believeit, but they don't do anything.
Yeah, they don't like Eli doesthis too, yeah? He's first
saying, right?

Jeff Leake (19:11):
Samuel gives him a word, and he's like, that's a
good word,

Dave Leake (19:13):
bro. Yeah? He says, There's judgment coming against
your house, because what you'veallowed your corrupt sons to do,
you know, sleeping with him inthe temple, like being
manipulative, take stealing fromGod, like being sacrilegious. I
mean, they were evil, wickedpeople, and he allowed their
wickedness to stay and profanethe temple of God. And he gets
judgment against him. And whathe says in First Samuel 318,

(19:34):
after he hears this, here'swhat's gonna happen to you. He
says, It is the Lord. Let him dowhat seems good to have, like
there's no repentance, no

Jeff Leake (19:42):
you just, you know, or you might even think, all
right, I actually think thereare some people, especially in
American culture, who are livingin the same sin. They're living
in a perpetual, unrepented sinpattern, and they go to church
on a Sunday and they feelspiritual for 90 minutes. Mm.
And they feel like that sort ofscratched an itch I know I need

(20:02):
to get right with God. And theygo back, and they go right back
into the same sin pattern, andthey do not change. And then
they go back on Sunday, and theyfeel inspired and motivated and
a little closer to God, and thenthey go back into the same sin
pattern. So sometimesinspiration and motivation can
mask a serious spiritual issuethat God is trying to address.

(20:25):
And eventually what happens isyour conscience gets broken, and
then it's even hard to feelinspired anymore. And then
people just sort of drop out ofchurch, like, Ah, just doesn't
It doesn't suit me anymore. Andit could be just simply because
your heart's gotten hard and youcan't feel it. Your feeler is
broke, because instead of takingwhat you have sensed from the

(20:48):
Holy Spirit and acting on it,you've been ignoring it. And so
you stopped feeling the presenceof God, and you stopped feeling
that inspiration, because yourheart got hard. And so I think
that's a real danger is to feelconvicted but not really repent.
Yeah, that's another. That'sanother, I guess, challenge with
the feeling piece. Now we'retalking about the negative side

(21:10):
of what feelings are. Ephesians

Dave Leake (21:11):
four, actually, it talks directly about what you
just said. Yeah. Ephesians 418,and 19, where says they're
darkened in their understandingand separate from the life of
God. Having lost allsensitivity, they have given
themselves over to sensuality.
So I think that that's thatidea, like the continued choice
to feel close but not respond toGod slowly darkens and darkens
and darkens and hardens ourheart until it's, you know, you

(21:34):
lose, I guess what? Like thespiritual rationality.

Jeff Leake (21:39):
I guess you get like a callus on the on your heart,
so that your heart can't feelthe same things it used to feel.
Yeah, and it's good. And so, sothis is the downside of the
spiritual rush. I've jumped offthe cliff and I'm floating in
the air. This is such a greatspiritual experience, man, that
worship time was amazing. Sacredassembly was incredible. But

(22:00):
real intimacy with God doesn'thappen because you have a moment
of inspiration or or a moment ofanointing. It happens because
you obey God in the difficultplaces, right? And you press
into God even when you don'tfeel stuff. See, actually,
that's where real maturity comesin, is I don't feel like it, but
I'm doing it anyway, right?
Because I know this is what Godwants me to do. My flesh is

(22:21):
telling me no, no, no, and God'ssaying yes, yes, yes, and I've
chosen to do what God's asked inspite of what my feelings tell
me that's that's actually whereyou really grow close to God,
where you really become matureis when you you subjugate your
feelings to your obedience,right, or to the truth of God's
Word. So feelings always aresecondary in that regard,

Dave Leake (22:44):
okay, but feelings aren't always bad. I mean, no,
right? Actually, God,

Jeff Leake (22:48):
we just caution side, right? That's right, yeah,

Dave Leake (22:51):
I guess one, one point that's worth addressing is
that God does care about ouremotions. I mean, there's a
bunch of Scripture about this.
I'll just hit a few of thesethat I was looking up. You know,
Psalm 38 434, 18 says the Lordis close to the brokenhearted
and saves those who are crushedin spirit. You know, it's God
sees when our emotions, not justwhen our emotions, when we're

(23:14):
hurt, when we're broken, andthat matters to him. You know,
the shortest verse in the Bible,John 1135 where it says Jesus
wept, but shows that Jesusexperienced and expressed deep
emotions. You know, Hebrews 415talks about, we do not have a
high priest who is unable toempathize with our weakness. And
that's both, I think, an ideathat Jesus experienced it when

(23:38):
he was in bodily form, but alsothat he understands. Now, you
know Peter first, Peter fiveseven, says, Cast all your
anxiety on him, because he caresfor you. So I think we have to
realize God is a God that doessee and understand and care
about emotions. Also. Emotionsare given to us by God,

Jeff Leake (23:56):
sure. Well, even the Holy Spirit has a disposition,
right? The first three of thefruits of the Spirit in
Galatians, five, love, joy,peace. Peace is an is an
emotion, in a way, it's acondition of your life. It's an
emotion. Joy is an emotion. Loveproduces emotions. When you feel
loved, you feel accepted, youfeel secure. So the Holy Spirit

(24:16):
is producing some dispositionalqualities inside, right? The
Yeah, the emotions that arethere. God, God. God is in touch
with what we feel, but hedoesn't cater to it. Yeah,
right. He is wanting to impartcertain things to us, but he
doesn't want us to depend toomuch on it, because if we, if we

(24:38):
depend on our feelings, thenagain, we'll be led by by those
things, rather than by somethingdeeper. Yeah, that's right. So
he, he's the best friend youcould ever have. He empathizes,
he sympathizes, he cares, and heis trying to produce, you know,
healing and wholeness andrestoration and joy and peace.
But all of that is still second.
Secondary to obedience, right?

(25:02):
So, cold, hard obedience isreally not like he's an evil
task master, but ultimately heknows that the will being
aligned with his will is whatleads us into a place of health
and fruitfulness.

Dave Leake (25:18):
Okay? So, um, a couple of thoughts and
directions to go with us. So theoriginal question is, what rule
do feelings have? My spiritualwalk or spiritual journey? So I
guess we talked about howthey're secondary. God cares
about them. Our will and ourdecisions to submit, to
surrender, to follow Jesus, arethe most important things. But

(25:38):
what about this idea of, youknow, like, so both the positive
and negative stereotypes of likeseeking God and pursuing an
experience with God, is it? Isit inherently bad to pursue an
experience with God? Like areally good question.

Jeff Leake (25:53):
What do you think?

Dave Leake (25:55):
I think, no, but I

Jeff Leake (25:57):
Okay. So, what experiences? What experiences
so,

Dave Leake (26:01):
okay, so let's see.
I would say, you know, when wethink about, like the early,
some of the early, likeAmericans, you know, like when I
think people like the Quakers,or some of the great revivals
where they, like, sought God andthey they wanted a genuine
encounter, or even, like, youknow, the Azusa Street Revival,

(26:23):
there was, there was a hungerthat I think was out of the
Spirit that, like, urged them toseek God, until they had a
manifestation of His presence.
By, by the way, when we saymanifestation, not in a Buddhist
way, but just in a tangible,palpable, describable way, where
it's not a vague, oh yeah, likeGod's around me, but I don't

(26:46):
sense it, but it's actually likeyou can understand how God's
interacting with the world. Andobviously we see this all
throughout the Bible, where Godtouches a place in power. You
know, like at the end of Acts,is it three or four? I think
it's three, where it says theywere praying, and the place
around them was shaken. You knowwhat I mean is that x3 at the
end of

Jeff Leake (27:04):
it? So those were experiences they had. I'm not
sure they were experiences theysought. No, you're right, but

Dave Leake (27:10):
hold on, I'll keep going with this. I understand
that. It's not like so theyprayed to God, and then God
showed up. It's not like theywere seeking them. But I'm
saying, I guess if we're sayingis seeking experience a good
thing? I would say maybe theexperience is the wrong thing to
seek. But I

Jeff Leake (27:25):
think if we're seeking God in a way, do we want
seeking the relationship? Yeah,to encounter God in a full way.
And you can't have relationshipwith God without there being an
experience, experientialdimension to it.

Dave Leake (27:37):
I think that's what I'm trying to say. If you get
close to God, you will have

Jeff Leake (27:41):
an experience. But if you seek the experience
rather than the person, that'swhere you can get off into, oh,
I want to, you know, some peopleare like sort of the charismatic
caravanners they go around toevery, you know, church that has
some kind of gifted communicatoror worship leader because they
want to feel the goose bumps ofthe presence of God, and I maybe

(28:05):
that's okay. I guess there'sworse things you could seek,
right? Worse ways you couldspend your time. But ultimately,
it's not about how it makes usfeel. It's about who he is that

Dave Leake (28:14):
feels like a misalignment, right? Because,
okay, so I think there is adifference, and it's subtle, and
maybe it's sometimes a heartthing, but you can see it in the
fruit of somebody's life as towhether they're seeking. I want
to have this experience where Iwant to feel this I want to feel
close to God, like, I want tofeel cleansed. I want to feel
joy, whatever it is like, I wantto have that experience again. I

(28:37):
want to be that's like, like theseeking of the environment or
the encounter, is maybe thewrong thing to seek. There's a
there's a fine line betweenthat. And I want to seek God.
And I think when you're wantingto see God there, you can have a
contentedness, even when youdon't have the feelings, sure,
so like the it can, I guess I'mjust saying it can start out of

(29:00):
that same hunger, that sameplace, like, I just want more
intimacy with Lord. I want tounderstand him better. I want to
know His Word. I want to knowhis heart. And if it then shifts
from, you know, God's heart orhis person to, or you know, you
hear this, towards seeking God'shand, which often means
provision, but it could alsomean like a touch from God. If
what we're seeking constantly asa touch from God, then we're

(29:22):
maybe not seeking God Himself.
Yeah,

Jeff Leake (29:24):
and here's how the I'll just share some personal
experiences, how that can gowrong. Okay, so when I was a
teenager, I was seeking thebaptism in the Holy Spirit,
okay, which is a biblical thingthat we find in Acts chapter
two. So I had given my life toChrist, 15 years old, and I was
wanting to be baptized in theHoly Spirit, and I wasn't
breaking through to theexperience yet, and I was

(29:46):
becoming, I thought a bunch ofthings, because I haven't had
this experience. Number one,something must be wrong with me,
okay? Or I must be doing thiswrong, or maybe this isn't in
the Bible. So the lack. Abreakthrough in feeling made me
question everything, becauseeveryone else was and I hadn't
yet. And at some point, one ofmy friends looked at me and

(30:09):
said, Man, you are seeking Godso much in this season. I
actually think you're growingcloser and closer to him. You
just haven't stepped into whatwhat it is to be baptized in the
Holy Spirit yet, but that'scoming. Like, don't condemn
yourself. There's nothing wrongwith you at all. Like the
intensity with which you'reseeking God is actually
beautiful, and you are movingcloser and closer. So, so I

(30:32):
remember another time, Dave,there's a, okay, this is, this
is an experience that we see inthe Bible on occasion, and it's
called being slain in theSpirit. This is, yeah, right,
right. At times God's where

Dave Leake (30:43):
do we see this? In the Bible,

Jeff Leake (30:45):
if we see it's hinted at a couple times, like
when the soldiers are ready torest Jesus, and they fall back
under the power of God, andthey're, you know, laid out, but
they're not worshiping. And Iknow Acts chapter 10 where Simon
Peters on the rooftop of hishouse, he he falls into a
trance. So I guess that's in away, like a spiritual

Dave Leake (31:05):
so being slayed in the spirit is going into a
trance.

Jeff Leake (31:08):
I think at times, I think at times it is like, Okay,
I heard people describe it asthey they came into the place of
the presence of God, and thepresence God was so strong they
couldn't stand anymore. Andwhile they were laying on the
crown. They had a vision. Yeah,they had, they had a sense that
God was doing something in someparticular way. So I think that
could fit into that. Has thishappened to you before? So I

(31:30):
have had some moments where Ifell under the presence of God,
but I don't know, because it'snot a biblical term. It's a
really hard thing to define,right? So I remember being at
Three Rivers Stadium here inPittsburgh, and there was a
special speaker that was there,and he he it was in an era where

(31:50):
the slain in the Spirit thingwas sort of a novelty. And he
got us all down on the field andlined up people, 300 people
long, and then he went down andhe prayed for each one. And I
remember standing in that lineand waiting for him to come to
me, and I was sort of like this,if this experience is from God,

(32:13):
I want to have it, and if it'snot, I don't want to fake it,
right? And so it was like, boom,boom, boom, boom, boom, everyone
falling down. And he got to me,and he tapped my head. And I
didn't, I didn't. I wasn'tovercome by anything. I didn't
feel anything. And I stoodthere, and I was like, the only
person standing in this line ofpeople. And then I remember
people saying to me, why didn'tyou fall down? And I was like,

(32:36):
Well, I'm not gonna just laydown on the ground just to mimic
an experience. But there were alot of people on the field that
day that were longing to havethat slain in this spirit
experience. And I think that'sprobably slightly off, right?
Because what's so if you, ifthat happens to you, you fell
down, you got back up, but, butnothing's really changed in your

(32:57):
life, or you haven't made anydecisions to move closer to God,
or you just can't notch that offthe list. Well, I've had that
one. Now, I've did that one.
Like, I don't think that's NewTestament Christianity, where
you just sort of check the boxesof, okay, I've done, I've been,
I've laughed in the spirit. I'vebeen slain in this very like, I
don't think that's but incertain charismatic streams, the
experience is the goal.

Dave Leake (33:20):
Yeah, yeah, that's probably dangerous. Yeah, right.
I'd say that's dangerous. Ithink that's dangerous because I
think that that is beginning tomiss the focus that we're
supposed to have, like seekingGod for Okay, let's so we'll get
off track for a little bit. Iknow we're talking about
spiritual feelings, but we'llget off track. I think seeking

(33:41):
God, to know Him better, tobecome more like Him, leads to
an outflow. It leads toevangelism. It leads to
discipleship. Sometimes thepeople that you're talking about
where the focus is on havinganother experience seem to be
the most in flowy people, likethey'll pray for others. Maybe
there's even a little bit, butit's like they, they constantly

(34:03):
have super long prayer meetings,and it's like the, it's almost
like the unstated goal is tohave that laughing moment, or to
have that I went to a placelike, I don't know, 10 years
ago, and it creeped me out. Itcreeped me out. I

Unknown (34:18):
know, were you talking about? Yeah, like I it was like
a

Dave Leake (34:21):
spiritual free for all I know that you've said that
you've seen genuine thingswhere, like, somebody wasn't
looking for it, and a move ofthe Spirit happened, and then
all of a sudden people justlike, begin to, like, oh, be
overcome with joy and laughter.
And that sounds like somethingso different than what I
experienced, because I went inand it was like it felt like,
you know, in the Batman movies,when then he puts, like,
laughing gas, and like, all themare, like, on the floor, and

(34:43):
it's creepy, like I was like,this is not and, I mean, I'm
Pentecostal, like, you knowwhat? I mean? I believe in the
presence of the Holy Spirit, andI believe in the baptism, and I
believe in God, you know, stillmoving in the world today to
demonstrate His power. I believeall those things. But. Like man,
when it when it gets focused toomuch only on me and God, instead

(35:03):
of like the mission that God'sgiven to us, I think it gets

Jeff Leake (35:10):
all right. So I know I've talked about this before
today, but 1997 Allison Parkchurch, we had a revival, and it
was a genuine outpouring of theHoly Spirit, where we're where
God moved, and people got saved,baptized in water, made
significant changes to theirlife. I think I mentioned
before, during this season, wehad a trash can at the front of

(35:30):
the church, and people wouldbring in their sinful
attachments and put them in thecan. So pornography was put in
there. Someone put a gun inthere, put people put their
drugs in there, like it was aplace of repentance. It was
real, genuine change that lastedfor two and a half months. At
some point, after about twomonths, we were still coming to

(35:52):
church because we were meetingalmost every night of the week
for services, and people werepouring in by the hundreds. And
at some point, I started to feellike, I think we're chasing the
feeling like we're singing thesame songs, and we're expecting
like this is going to be anotherone of these nights where we
have these experiences. And wewere becoming inwardly focused

(36:15):
without realizing it. It wasbecoming about us and the
feelings that we would have inthe context of revival services,
and we made a strategic decisionto stop the nightly services so
we could go back into doinghealthy church life with small
groups and biblical teaching andspiritual growth steps for
people and serve day like in it,we were almost becoming a

(36:39):
Spiritual goosebumps center,like we're all going to come
together, and the only thing wedo is worship and try to have
these spiritual experiences. AndI think if we had done that, we
would have become very inwardand it would have become stale.
Instead, what happened is thatrevival shifted our culture and
we started planting churches, webecame more missional and

(37:01):
outward, because we took theempowerment of Holy Spirit and
we leveraged what was happeningin our life to fulfill what God
was calling us to do. And Ithink there is a danger in
becoming too believer centricand too experientially focused,

(37:22):
even though there are moments intime where God breaks through
and we have these outpourings ofGod, which we feel more alive
than we've ever felt before, butthey can't ever become the
target they have to become, Iguess, a wonderful byproduct of
a moment with God.

Dave Leake (37:39):
I think that's part of why we have a little bit more
restrictions on expressions ofpursuing God than maybe other
places do

Jeff Leake (37:47):
like I've heard. I know the word restrictions is
correct. I would probably put weprovide a little bit more
pastoral guidance. Okay, butthere

Dave Leake (37:55):
are some things you'd be like, we're not doing
that. You know what I'm like,for instance, like blowing a
shofar in the middle of aservice, oh, which has happened
that as an experience? No, no,I'm saying, I'm saying something
that is pursuing, not, not thatGod does, but I'm saying that's
pursuing God in an individualway of worship, like, in terms,
okay, some places it's a littlemore free for all, like, you

(38:18):
know, if you So, for example.
And I'm not saying this isalways like, we're talking about
right and wrong, but we'retalking about stylistic. You
know, 20 years ago, you werelike, we're not going to shout
out words from the congregation.

Jeff Leake (38:30):
Okay, true. Yes.
Interruptive spiritual giftswere something that we stopped,
not because it was feelingsoriented. It just, I think it
just, there was a better way tofunction. So the blowing of the
shofar is just really a culturalthing, right? Sure, it was an
Old Testament practice thatoften is now associated so it's
a ram's horn. That's what ashofar is, if you don't know

(38:52):
what that is, it was used tosummon the Israelites to battle
or to warn them that the troublewas coming, or bring them to a
place of fasting or worship, andin charismatic circles, it often
is used like as a,

Dave Leake (39:10):
what would you call it? I don't know, prophetic
declaration or something.
There's nothing worse reallywrong with the show, and I'm not
I'm not saying that, but

Jeff Leake (39:18):
more of a cultural misfit with where we live in
2025 in most contexts. Now, ifyou were in a Messianic Jewish
congregation, maybe that fits,sure, right? But it probably
doesn't fit. Most people wouldbe like, what was that like?
Okay, so that's more strange,but what I'm trying to say is
feelings oriented.

Dave Leake (39:35):
I've been, I've been in and around congregations, not
not for a long time, butvisiting where, you know,
there's been, like, messageslike, yeah, like, we need, we
need to be sometimes, somepeople will go too far, is how
they said in their pursuit ofGod. But that doesn't mean that
we should, like, limit, youknow, what's allowed, because we
really just want to desperatelyseek God and stuff. I would say

(39:58):
for us, I. Yeah, like, we havesort of the, you know, First
Corinthians 14, yeah, okay,

Jeff Leake (40:03):
that's, that's good.
I'm glad you're going there,because first Corinthians 14
basically says when we gettogether. Because, in the church
in Corinthians, the Corinthianchurch in Paul's era, they had,
they had, sort of one of thesespiritual free for alls. It was
like a place where, like,goosebumps Central. It was like
God was moving, and there wasall the gifts of the Spirit that

(40:24):
were operating, and people werecoming, and they were sort of
basking in it, you know, theywere soaking in it. And Paul
comes along and pastorallyinstructs, not restricts, but
instructs. And basically, hesays,

Dave Leake (40:37):
sure, but what's the difference at a certain point?
Basically, don't do this

Jeff Leake (40:41):
stuff. He says, what you have to be thinking about
all the time is, does this edifyothers? True? You cannot use
your personal liberty to flow inthe function of the Holy Spirit
without thinking about whenyou're with other people. Does
this edifice edify or benefitsomebody else? That's true.
Every gift has a purpose, andthis is actually good to get to
Dave, because one of the rolesthat feelings, one of the roles

(41:05):
that feelings have in our in ourspiritual life that lead us into
a really good experience, isbeing used in the gifts like you
have a deep desire in your lifeto be used in the gift of
prophecy. And prophecy isdesigned to edify and build up
other people. The only way youget a word of prophecy in your
heart is if you feel it. Yousense that God is speaking to

(41:28):
you, and that does require somelevel of emotional connectedness
to what the Holy Spirit is doingin the moment, sure where you
have this impression or prompton the inside, a feeling that
then prompts a thought that thenyou speak out loud by your will
to somebody that needs to hearit, and that that gift of the
Spirit is an experience youshould seek. Because actually,

(41:50):
the Bible says in FirstCorinthians, chapter 12, that we
should What 14 follow the way oflove and eagerly desire
spiritual gifts. Not notspiritual experiences, for my
sake of feeling the goosebumps,but spiritual gifts so that I
can distribute something good,something supernatural, to
somebody in need. The problemwith the Corinthian church in

(42:10):
First Corinthians 14 is thatthey were having experiences
that were the end in themselvesand what they were after. What
Paul was saying is, use thegifts man like step into that
you should long for that, butmake sure you do it because you
want to edify somebody else. Andso if you give a word of
knowledge, or you arefunctioning in a word of
prophecy, or you operate in thegift of faith, all of that

(42:34):
starts in some ways with somelevel of feeling impulse, which
is then good, right? This even,even when we make decisions in
life, oftentimes we'll look foran inward confirmation that
we're on the right track, whichis, is this sense of peace about
something so feelings in yourspiritual life aren't a bad
thing. They're actually play apart. They often confirm the

(42:57):
facts that God has given us, orthe leadings and promptings that
God has given us, but if takenapart from any of that, they
lose their purpose and value. SoI you know, I guess we're
debating over whether this ispastoral instructions or
restrictions. I guess textually,Paul was giving some
restrictions. He was saying,when you use these gifts, make

(43:19):
sure you follow theseguidelines. Yeah,

Dave Leake (43:21):
that's all I'm saying. Yeah, I guess it's not
for the for the goal of somebodyelse controlling others, but
it's them controllingthemselves, but it's still self
benefit restrictions, yeah, forthe benefit of others. And
honestly, the reality too is,you know, the devil thrives in
chaos. And what Paul is sayingis, make sure there's order,
because the Holy Spirit works inorder. Not that the Holy Spirit

(43:43):
can't do things that are messysometimes, sure, but whenever
it's disorderly, and it's beyondmessy, it's disorderly in a way
that is not considering theedification of the church or non
believers that are coming in.
That's a lot of FirstCorinthians 14 consider people
that are entering in that aregoing to think you're crazy, if
there's not consideration givenfor that, I don't think it's a

(44:05):
good justification based onFirst Corinthians to say, Yeah,
but our passion for God shouldoverrule things like order or
sense.

Jeff Leake (44:15):
Well, there's a delicate balance with that,
right? So we're a church thatwants all three, your mind, your
will and emotions to beinvolved. We especially aim
toward the will, because what wewant is obedience, but we also
are not going to forbid emotion.
So like you have this story ofHannah, who's in the presence of
of God in the tabernacle, andshe's grieving because she so

(44:37):
desperately wants to have achild, and she's praying out
loud, and Eli shows up, is itEli? Yeah. Eli shows up and says
to Hannah, what's wrong withyou? Are you drunk? Because she
was sort of muttering under herbreath because she was being
emotional, yeah. And so sorry,yes. That's better way to say
it. Sometimes people areemotional in church. Much and

(44:57):
they should. They should havethe freedom and affirmation to
be emotional, yeah, if they'regrieving something or calling
out to God for something, orexperiencing something without
feeling slammed because they'reover hyping things.

Dave Leake (45:14):
Well, by the way, the god the Hannah moment is
like a godly weeping pouring outher heart in prayer, and God
honors that and gives her a sonin Samuel, so but, but Eli
thought she was crazy. He diddrunk, but God, I'm saying to
affirm your point, God honoredthat expressing emotion from

Jeff Leake (45:31):
a pure place. But then there's that, if Hannah
showed up at the tabernacleevery week and had the same
experience, sure, right, this,and went through like, almost
like a Pentecostal, charismaticliturgy of response to God,
right? Right? At that point, Eliwould have need to pastor her,
and this is what we're talkingto some people. It's one thing
to have a moment with God whereyou're emotional, because it's a

(45:54):
genuine, authentic thing, andit's another thing to mimic that
same emotional response everytime you come to church, okay,
and and to to think thatwidening and broadening the
emotional spectrum of things isgoing to make things more

Dave Leake (46:06):
spiritual. So here's, here's the thing this.
This gets us to a I have severalother places we can go with
this, though, but this is one,one that was on my mind this.
This sort of brings me to thepoint of, like, I think that
sometimes a trap that people canfall into and in different
circles, but probablyspecifically in Pentecostal
charismatic circles, is the onlyway I know I feel close to God

(46:27):
is when I feel him right, asopposed to being close to God in
ways that aren't feelings based,you know, actually, like I, you
know, as we do learn the word ofGod better, we do become closer
To God, you know, like, sure, webecome, you know, what is it?
Romans, where it says, it says,Be transformed by the renewing

(46:48):
of your mind. Like our mind isrenewed as the word of God
dwells within us. And so as we,even if we don't feel things
actually like, and I've had thisexperience. I know you taught us
this growing up, but likespending time in the Word of God
every day does something to youroutlook and your perspective and
your spirit, to where, even ifyou don't feel like you've had a

(47:09):
strong time of devotions, likemeaning I had an experience, and
I feel great now, and even if itfelt like nothing happened, it
actually does affect you.
Because, like spending time inGod's word, even if it's just a
mind thing, actually has aneffect on us. I think sometimes
the way we interpret, have wecrossed a finish line, or maybe
that's the wrong way opened thedoor to really enter into God's

(47:30):
presence. If our way todetermine that is based on
feelings, we're actually missingthe fuller expression of what it
is to be close and to walk withGod, yeah. Because I think even
when it comes to like a spouseor a loved one, like you don't
have to have feelings of elationor, you know, whatever it is,
every time you're with them tobe intimate, you just need to
spend time with them.

Jeff Leake (47:53):
Yeah, there's so there's qual, qualitative and
quantitative, right? You don'tfeel richer when your money's in
the bank, but there's compoundinterest. And if you look at the
end of a month, you'll see youhave more, right? Same thing is
true. Like, I've had momentswith Melody when, like, for
instance, for our 13thanniversary, we went to Aruba

(48:13):
and you guys, you guys were allreally small. This is our first
time away together for a wholeweek. That was a time of great
elation. By the way,

Dave Leake (48:20):
it's really weird to think about. I'm only six years
away from my 13th anniversary.
I'm like, oh, geez,

Unknown (48:27):
you were getting old, my friend. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (48:30):
So, I mean, we were together in a gorgeous place,
walking hand in hand on thebeach, and we felt very much in
love. That's qualitative.
Quantitative is we go on a datenight every Friday, and
sometimes that date night isvery ordinary. There were
sometimes we had no money, so wewould take some peanut butter
and jelly sandwiches and sit byNorth Park Lake and have some
extra bread to feed the ducks.

(48:52):
Wasn't all that exhilarating,but it was time put in and over
38 years of marriage.
Qualitative and quantitative areboth important. Sometimes you
feel nothing. But if I hadignored those weekly dates with
Melody, certainly the lack ofdiscipline in our relationship
would have caused us to feelfurther apart. And then, of

(49:13):
course, you need these grandmoments where it's an
anniversary celebration and youjust feel so connected to each
other. But marriage isn't alwaysgoing to feel romantic. Yeah,

Dave Leake (49:28):
you know, I would think we would, we would
recommend counseling forsomebody, if they if, every time
they were around somebody, theyneeded to feel like they're
making me happy, or elseSomething is wrong. Well, some

Jeff Leake (49:42):
people do go into marriage thinking that, yeah,
right. Like, it's going to be aconstant roller coaster ride
with all kinds of exhilarationevery week. And it's not. There
are days, there days that youfeel nothing, but if you keep on
loving somebody, even when youfeel nothing, that's what makes
you mature.

Dave Leake (49:57):
Yeah. Okay. So, like, obviously. If you sense
something is off, you want torespond to that, like, Yeah,
something's between us. But alot of the time with friends or
with my wife, Sarah, it's likethere's a grounded level of
stability, like we are good. I'mhappy to be with her. Like, this
is wonderful, but it's not likean emotional roller coaster,

(50:18):
because that's not the sign ofwhether you're an intimate
intimacy with somebody like tobe good doesn't mean you have to
feel like, oh my gosh, you know,yeah. And I just think that's a
miss identification of whatintimacy with God looks like.
That sometimes gets pursued.

Jeff Leake (50:35):
And over time, I think Dave so I can speak to
this because I am older and beenat it longer. There are times
when Mel and I will be drivingsomewhere and not talking to
each other at all, not eventhinking about each other, but
there's sort of a settledness tothe closeness that we have,
where we can be who we are inthat moment and feel very deeply

(50:56):
connected. I have the same kindof thing in my relationship with
God like I remember. So mymother is 83 years old, and I
was just driving back from beingwith her. I'd stop in on her
every day. And I was thinkingabout the thought of one of the
commandments, Honor your fatherand mother. It'll go well with
you in the land. And I was just,I was Miss meditating on that
it's an it's a privilege tohonor my mom and to be a part of

(51:18):
her life right now. And and Ijust felt like the Holy Spirit
just kind of breathed to me.
This is pleasing to me. Thankyou for doing this like it
wasn't a I didn't feel goosebumpy, I didn't feel this rush
of emotion. I just felt thisdeep settledness, like I love
pleasing God. And then I justsaid, sort of said out loud,
you're, you are my best friend.

(51:38):
God. I love you so much. Thankyou for letting me serve you. I
want to, I want to be pleasingto you today. And that was all
it was. It wasn't like a bigrevelation of anything. It
wasn't like I got this deepinspiration from a particular
scripture. It was just asettledness that comes with
years and years of intimacytogether, and that time put in
of both quality and quantitycreates a level of connectedness

(52:01):
in relationship that onlyincreases over time. And that's
a feeling, in a way, but if itwas, if my relationships had
only been built on the goosebumpy pursuit of experiential
moments, I would never have thatdeep, resonating sense of
intimacy, sure, with either mywife or my relationship with

(52:23):
God. Now let me just come backto this I know before we close,
Dave, so one of the things thatI really admire about you is
that you have this hunger to beused by in the gifts of the
Spirit, especially in theprophetic and I wanted to ask
you, what role do feelings playin that aspect of your pursuit
of

Dave Leake (52:42):
God, great. That's why that was my last topic.
Okay, good, because

Jeff Leake (52:46):
I want to hear how you would describe it, because
there is a role that feelingsplay that I think are somewhat
primary when it comes tofollowing a prompting.

Dave Leake (52:56):
Okay, the weird thing is, like, it's not
necessarily feelings, but it issenses. And I don't mean in the
sense of necessarily, smell,taste, touch, sight, you know,
sound. I mean it can be thosethings, but there is a like when
it comes to listening to thevoice of God in a sense of like

(53:19):
the gift of prophecy. It doeshave something to do with
feelings. Now, by the way, youknow, just around the subject,
we do believe that God is an actof speaking God. We don't
believe the gifts the spirit ofceased in any way. Think that's
actually crazy nonsense. And Ithink that everybody is
hardwired to hear the voice ofGod. And so this was sort of the

(53:40):
last sort of topic I had in mymind is, I think honing, or we
could say the gift ofdiscernment, not necessarily
even just the spiritual giftdiscerning of spirits, where you
can sense if something isdemonic or it's fleshly, but I
just mean discerning betweenwhat is my thoughts or my
feelings, versus God's thoughtsGod's feelings. Think that's one
of the harder things that comeswith maturity. So can I Okay,

(54:06):
can I can I give a couple ofscriptural examples real quick,
and then I can talk about mypersonal experiences. So it's
interesting, because, like,actually, even in the even in
the Bible, as far as people thatare recognized prophets, they
don't always get confirmation ofwhether it was God or not until
much later, or until they've hadthe active faith, meaning they

(54:27):
sometimes they weren't evensure. You know, like, there's
there's

Jeff Leake (54:30):
take. It's always a step of faith when you're used
in a gift, isn't it, right?

Dave Leake (54:34):
Okay? But so like Jeremiah 32 Okay, and here I can
pull this up, but essentially,what happens? Jeremiah gets this
word from God. Let me pull thisup, okay? And it says, this is
the word that came to the Lord.
This is verse 1/10 year. Okay,let's see. I. Okay, and so,

(54:56):
okay, here we go. Verse six,Jeremiah said the word of Lord
came to me, hanamel, son ofshalom, your uncle, is going to
come to you and say, buy myfield. To Anathoth, because, as
nearest relative is right, anddue to buy it, okay, he gets
this word that a relative isgoing to come and say, hey, buy
my field. Verse eight, then,just as the Lord had said. My

(55:19):
cousin Hannah Mel came to me andsaid the same thing, right? And
then he says, At the end ofverse eight, I knew that this
was the word of the Lord, so Ibought the field and a thought.
So, like, the idea is like,like, he didn't actually know it
was necessarily the word Lorduntil it came to pass. He
thought this is what God andthen he's like, Well, God spoke
this to me. There's aconfirmation. Now I know it was

(55:40):
God because it actually happenedthe way that I thought it would.
I think even with somebodythat's like Jeremiah, like, you
know, a major prophet in theBible, like, had all these
experiences and everything,like, even there still needs to
be, even in the Old Testament, asense of discernment and like,
what what parts of my feelingsor thoughts are mean, and what
are God's

Jeff Leake (56:03):
with? So it's so it's almost like, in some ways,
these this isn't just feelings.
It's like, just like your earssense sound, and your eyes sense
light, your spirit is a sensorydevice, in a way that interacts
with the Holy Spirit and and sodo this sound create a feeling
in you? It does, but it's lessabout the feeling created, and

(56:25):
it's just more of the fact thatyour spirit is has a sensory
capacity to Yeah. So yeah. Sodoes your skin like if I come up
to you and flick your forehead,you feel it. You might have some
feelings that result from it,but it's that your skin has been
impacted your spirit is also hassensory component to it. It
does, and when the Holy Spiritbegins to interact with you, you

(56:46):
you have a sensitivity to it.
Now that may also come with joyor peace or warning, but it's
more just that you learn, overtime, as a follower of Jesus, to
listen to the sensory nature ofyour spirit that then, if you
interpret it properly, becomesGod speaking to you, or you

(57:10):
beginning to step out to be usedin some kind of gift. That's
right.

Dave Leake (57:13):
So my point in reading the verse there was that
even recognized biblicalprophets still have a step of
faith moment and a discernment,is this God? Okay? Actually, was
God like, was that's good, Ithink with us, like everybody
who has felt the Holy Spirit ishardwired to hear God. And I
think God is speaking all thetime. It's just learning to

(57:35):
listen and to discern His voice.
And so I guess some tips, maybethat I would say,

Jeff Leake (57:42):
and often, I think if we get over exaggerated on
how, if we wait for super, superduper feelings to to be
accompanying the sensitivity ofthe Holy Spirit, we way over
expect what that's like. I thinksometimes people don't get you
don't step out into discerningthe voice of God, because they

(58:03):
expect it to come with superduper feelings,

Dave Leake (58:06):
that's right, or a big sign, or it's lightning, or
it's

Jeff Leake (58:09):
a voice in the sky, or just like, hearing audibly,
yeah, is kind of ordinary. Meanssomething we should remain
grateful for. Being sensitive tothe Holy Spirit is often very
ordinary. Yeah, it'sextraordinary. That's the Holy
Spirit speaking to us. But it'sa small, still, still small
voice. It's a whisper, it's,it's, it's not typically with

(58:29):
trumpets and like, and that'sactually what makes a person
miss it. But keep going,

Dave Leake (58:35):
yeah? Well, I think what, what makes it so, yeah,
what makes it tough is it oftensounds just like how your voice
sounds, yeah, like it's like,was that a me thought, I don't
think like almost ever. WheneverI hear a word from God, it
doesn't feel like so distinct ordifferent than how I feel or
think that I'm like, that has tobe God. Typically, it's like, I

(58:57):
don't know or not if that's Godright away and the thought that
I had in my head. So you have togo through filtration process.
But just quickly. God alwayswants to speak to us, but I
think we have to filter through.
Is this what the Word of Godalready agrees with and says?
And if it is, then, even if it'snot God speaking to me right
now, he's already spoken it. Sowe should do this. And if it's
not something directly in theWord of God, this is aligned

(59:17):
with the principles, you know,like, if I'm getting a word for
somebody else, and it's, youknow, that that God is, I feel
like God's asking you to laythis down, and God's gonna bring
you peace. You know, you've beenreally fighting and struggling,
but God's saying, give controlup, and he's gonna give you
peace. That that is not, I mean,I guess that is according to
Scripture and aligns with theprinciples. So that helps me to

(59:39):
sort of sense is what I'mhearing, a part of what maybe
what God wants to say to them.
Well, it aligns with what Godsays. And then I think one of
the big like, already says inthe words what I mean. And I
think one of the big ones islike, especially whenever
there's, like, a question, Isthis me or just God is like, do
I stand to gain anything fromwhat I'm gonna say? Okay,

(01:00:00):
because that's the bigdifference. Like, sometimes God
wants something for somebodyelse that will also be good for
me, but if it's good for me, Ihave to take a second or third
look first,

Jeff Leake (01:00:13):
yeah, so you're not manipulative,

Dave Leake (01:00:15):
yes, because it's, it's easy to be like, well, this
would be good for them, by theway, God wants.

Jeff Leake (01:00:18):
I hope every This is at the end of this particular
episode. I hope you stayed forthis, because this last little
section, I think, was part ofthe or one of the best parts of
our talk. And maybe Dave Thisprompts us to another
conversation, which would beguidelines for being used in the
prophetic that might be good,that might be good episode where
we could dive a little bit morein detail, because I feel like

(01:00:41):
now we're at the end of the timethere. There are probably for
those who are listening, who arewho are new to this, or like the
prophetic sensitivity of sayingsomething on behalf of God to
somebody else. That might besomething you're very curious
about, but you're not, you're anovice at. We probably need a
lot more time to unpack thatshortly. Okay,

Dave Leake (01:01:01):
well, then be then I'll wrap it up in this way,
because the gift of prophecy,saying something on God's behalf
to somebody else is one thing,but often you people say, Well,
I really feel like God told methis. Do you understand, even in
that case, whether it'sdirectives or it's what I should
not a word of prophecy, but howI should treat somebody else, or
a decision I should make. Ithink the the question, do I

(01:01:26):
stand to gain anything from thisshould be a factor and taking
those filters, yeah, because Ithink one of the common things
that I think is is often whenyou see things go off a little
bit is like you wanted God tosay that, like, I know God
didn't say that. I know Goddidn't say that, because the way

(01:01:47):
you're saying this now, and whatthe actions this is, this is not
according to the principles thatGod has. It might not be direct,
which was one of the dangers ofbeing led by your feelings
Exactly. And when we equate ourfeelings to this is probably
what God's telling me, but it'sreally probably what we want. I
think it gets into a place thatcan be shaky.

Jeff Leake (01:02:06):
This is how you also need someone that you're
submitted to exactly, or guide,yes, what you have heard, yeah,
so you don't make a big mistake.
Yeah,

Dave Leake (01:02:15):
we're supposed to test every word, you know, test
the spirits. Yeah, all that tosay, we can do another episode
about, you know, prophetic andthings. But I think as far as
like hearing from God, it's notto say we should be discouraged
and not trust anything as Godever, because it could be me.
Faith always requires a level ofrisk, but we should take it

(01:02:37):
seriously. We should weigh ourfeelings. We should filter
through it, and we should seekGod, because God does want us to
experience him in more than justour mind or the Word of God. So
any closing thoughts,

Jeff Leake (01:02:51):
boy, we covered a lot of territory there. I'm
just, I guess I would say likethis, I'm really glad that there
are moments where God allows meto feel his presence. I'm not I
want to become overly dependenton that. I want to operate out
of faith, which means I'mconvicted that certain things
are true, that He's real, evenwhen I don't feel it. But I'm
really grateful for the factthat he allows us to have these

(01:03:12):
moments of intimacy andexhilaration that come from
being in his presence.

Dave Leake (01:03:17):
Yeah, that's wonderful. Yeah. I'm glad that
God has created us holistically,where our emotions aren't the
devil, yeah, like, but where hewants to fit in their their
proper place. That's right,yeah. And that, like a
relationship with God isholistic too. Like we feel, we
actually learn to feel what hefeels. I actually think part of

(01:03:37):
God trusting us is him trustingus with his heart, like as we
handle that same care that hewants us to, whether that's
people or it's matters or it'sbeautiful surrender we feel what
He wants us to feel. All right.
Well, we appreciate you joiningus in this episode. Hopefully
this was enlightening orclarifying in some ways for you.
If you have any more questions,you can actually go in the if

(01:03:57):
you're on YouTube, you can goright below in the comments, and
you can let us know what youthink, or if you have other
questions. You could do that.
You could always email us aswell. Our emails are probably on
the podcast. They're definitelyon the Allison church website,
Dave L at Austin or Jeff L. Youcan let us know if you have any
other thoughts or topics asalways, if you can help us share
in one of the different ways, byliking and subscribing on

(01:04:19):
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platform by sharing it, thatwould be super helpful to us. It
would only take a second, but ithelps us a lot. So hope you
enjoyed this. We'll see you guysagain next time you.