Christian Persecution in America: Is Trump’s New Task Force “Blasphemous”?

Is there really Christian persecution in America? 🇺🇸 

Pastors Dave and Jeff Leake dive deep into the new controversial Trump task force, discussing the tension this brings to light.

This podcast episode examines the recent Trump administration's task force on anti-Christian bias and discusses:

• The current state of religious freedom in the United States
• Challenges facing Christian communities
• Navigating faith in a changing cultural landscape
• Balancing biblical principles with cultural engagement

Don't miss this eye-opening conversation!

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
Recently, President Trump commissioned a group

(00:02):
called the task force toeradicate anti Christian bias,
and that's created some waveseven within Christian cultures.
In fact, one guy posted a clipcalling it not just bad
politics, but blasphemy. We wantto take a look at are Christians
persecuted in America and in anation that is increasingly
secular. How should we conductourselves, and how do we

(00:23):
interface with all the stuffthat President Trump is doing?
So if you want to hear more,tune in. Hey everybody. Welcome
to the Allison Park leadershippodcast, where we have culture
creating conversations. My nameis Dave and

Jeff Leake (00:36):
my name is Jeff, and we're glad you've joined us
today. Of course, we're bothfather and son and also pastors
on staff at Allison Park Church,and we want to welcome you today
to today's episode. So yes, wedo. Where are we going? Dave,
gratitude.

Dave Leake (00:49):
No five star reviews to shout out today, but we want
to say a big thank you to all ofour regular, regular listeners.
We're excited to have you. Youknow, on another episode, we
appreciate also all thesuggestions. We're getting a lot
more suggestions now, you know,episodes and topics and ideas to
discuss. We'll have one soon, Ithink on a new episode, not
today, but yeah, so we have onetoday. Oh, is this from a

(01:10):
question?

Jeff Leake (01:11):
Yeah, this is from a question. I didn't tell you
that. Oh, yeah. Okay, so I, youknow how when you're on Facebook
and somebody mentions you in apost. It, it sort of tags you
and shows up in your feed. Oh,this is the one that's yeah,
this is the one. Okay, yeah. SoTammy Wasco had a post on her

(01:31):
Instagram. She posted somethingfrom a guy the handle of the of
the real, Joe Smith, and he wastalking about a recent decision
by the Trump administration toappoint a task force to search
out anti Christiandiscrimination across the
country. And Joe Smith wasreacting against that. And Tammy

(01:55):
had multiple comments fromdifferent people in her friend
group and at the end of herdiscussions with people, she
basically said to us at thebottom, let's see if I can read
the direct quote that that waslisted here. So she basically
called for our podcast toaddress this conversation that
they were having online. Andlet's see. So at the end of

(02:20):
interaction with a guy named JimBaldwin, she says, Jeff Lee,
could you and Dave maybe do apodcast on the subject?

Dave Leake (02:26):
So I thought the bad signal, yeah. So I thought

Jeff Leake (02:30):
this is kind of cool. We we've been invited into
a conversation about Christianissues and politics off of a
Facebook page. So we thought wewould kind of

Dave Leake (02:42):
dive into that, right? You want to, we have the
video that we can play, right?
Okay, so this is

Jeff Leake (02:47):
the post that was put on Instagram by a pastor
church in Gainesville, Florida.
Gainesville, Florida, okay, sofirst, I think before we show
Joe Smith the pastor's commentsabout Trump's recent decision.
We're not here to attack JoeSmith, okay, so we're we're
here, so we're going to use hiscomments as a place to start our

(03:09):
discussion. But we're not so ifJoe you hear this podcast, we're
not after you, or we're nottrying to do anything to
diminish you as as a pastor oras a leader. We're just going to
use your comments, which you putonline publicly, to start our
discussion points, because thiswas what Tammy, who is part of
Allison Park Church, just askedus to weigh in on. So we're

(03:31):
going to weigh in on yourcomments based upon that
question. And we have that, Ithink, to play. Do you anything
else you want to say before welistening? Okay? Again.
Recently, the Trumpadministration appointed a task
force to, I think, out of theDepartment of Justice to look to
see if there was any evidence ofanti Christian discrimin

(03:51):
discrimination across thecountry, and Pastor Joe Smith
was reacting to that. So let'sgo ahead and look at this clip.

Unknown (04:02):
I Let's talk about it.
As a Christian and a pastor, Ineed to say this clearly, this
is not about protecting faith.
It's about power. Christians arenot persecuted in the United
States. We are the majority. Ourholidays are national holidays.
Politicians quote the Bible toscore points. Churches don't pay
taxes. Christian symbols andlanguage are everywhere in

(04:26):
public life. This isn't aboutprotecting religious freedom.
It's about enforcing Christiannationalism, the belief that
Christianity should dominatepublic life and government. And
it's not just dangerouspolitically, it is anti
Christian. Jesus didn't seekpolitical power and he didn't
demand special treatment. Hetaught us to love our neighbors,
care for the marginalized, andto lay down power, not hoard it.

(04:47):
But what's happening here isjust the opposite. It's using
faith as a weapon to silencedissent and to prop up a
majority culture that's alreadyin control. Many of us grew up
hearing that Christian. Werepersecuted here in the United
States. But come on, that's nottrue. That's not about
oppression. It's aboutmaintaining control. It's about

(05:09):
getting defensive whenmarginalized groups start
getting some attention, somerepresentation, maybe even some
rights. If your faith needsgovernment protection, it's not
faith, it's fear. The Gospeldoesn't need an executive order
and needs people living outlove, justice and humility. This
is not just bad politics, it'sblasphemy.

Jeff Leake (05:32):
Okay, there you go.
So there's a whole bunch in thislittle commentary that I agree
with. There's a whole bunch thatI think is maybe said with a
particular point of view for apolitical reason. And I would
say some of what he's saying Ithink is good in other parts of

(05:54):
it I'm not so sure about. AndI'm looking at your face, David,
I think he triggered you. Didthe reaction?

Dave Leake (06:02):
Okay, yeah. I mean, I get where he's coming from. If
he had a different point inmind, I probably would agree
with a lot of what he's saying.
I don't think that there's ifyou're if you're talking about a
comparative scale of persecutionthroughout Christian history, or
even just the present worldtoday. Christian Christians are

(06:23):
not persecuted on that scale inAmerica, not even close.

Jeff Leake (06:29):
Yeah. I mean, if you consider the fact that in Syria,
in the last couple of weeks,1000 Christians were killed
because of a conflict that'sgoing on there, or in Nigeria,
headings

Dave Leake (06:39):
that are happening, yeah, burning down of buildings
all across the world,kidnappings because of

Jeff Leake (06:44):
so many people killed in Nigeria last year who
were, who were believers. Sohistorically, America has been,
you know, again, very, veryfriendly to Christianity. And
yes, our holidays arecelebrated, and churches don't
pay taxes, and the properresponse to

Dave Leake (07:02):
no religious or mosques don't pay taxes,
synagogues don't pay taxes,yeah, so, I mean, I guess in the
sense that all religions and

Jeff Leake (07:10):
their holidays are also being recognized because
we're more of a pluralisticsociety, yeah,

Dave Leake (07:15):
that was one issue I took with it. It's like, okay,
true. But then also holidayslike Christmas and Easter have
been repurposed forcommercialized, secular
purposes, right? So I guessthey're celebrated in a non
religious sense, yeah, but it's,I guess that feels a little
disingenuous to me, because it'sactually, it's true, but it's
true in a grippy, click baityway more than it is a totally

(07:41):
factual, accurate way, like it'strue. But yeah, so I guess I get
the persecution thing. I think,I think when you compare
Christianity to Islam andAmerica and the way it's
treated, I think people are verycareful of what they say.
They're very respectful of whatthey say about Islam well now,

Jeff Leake (08:02):
but if you would go back to 911 era, that's not
true. No, you're right, yeah,I'm thinking in 2025, 2025
that's that's very true, yeah,although, if you were to talk to
an Imam, he might be able totell you stories of of

Dave Leake (08:15):
discrimination that happened. Yeah, absolutely,
yeah. I guess I'm talking aboutfrom a public online, or a TV or
internet kind of

Jeff Leake (08:23):
a, yeah, so we could distinguish popular culture,
there you go. Is clearly antiChristian, but not popular
culture, meaning movies,television and music would would
not be anti Islam, right?
Popular culture. But there was atime like, I don't remember,
sure the TV show 24 which waslike, the first can't, what do

(08:43):
they call that when you justcan't stop watching binge binge
watch. Okay, yeah, so it was oneof the first binge board of
these shows. Almost all theenemies were Islamic. Okay, so
20 years ago, if you were totalk to someone from that tribe
of you know, that religiousbackground, they would probably
tell you, No, I feel, I feel,constantly, we

Dave Leake (09:03):
were in the middle of a war with, you know,
jihadists and terrorists, and soit was sort of the the cultural
context of the time.

Jeff Leake (09:11):
So if you were to go back to the 1950s Christianity
was presented in a very positiveway, right, right from a popular
culture. Now, that's not thecase. Popular culture is anti
Christian. I would say that'spretty clear. And maybe because
of that constant messaging,Christians may feel more
persecuted than than we reallyare. There might be a little bit
of a war of words over it. Thenmaybe we feel, you know, because

(09:36):
it's sort of like popular topile on whatever the majority
culture is that that's kind oflike the trend of today?

Dave Leake (09:43):
Well, yeah, I also think, like, there's a whole,
what's it called? There's awhole genre of TV shows, if you
look on Netflix now, one of thelabels there's a genre called
irreverent, which is takingthings that have formerly been
sacred and treating them kind ofyou. Know, lightly or a dark
humor, kind of a sense aboutthings that were reverent. A lot

(10:04):
of those are Christian things,yeah.

Jeff Leake (10:06):
Well, we talked about, what was the word we
used, Dave whenever desecration,desecration, where the Biden
administration celebratedtransgender identity day on
Easter, right? Okay, so that wasone of those places where you
felt that, again, notdesecration is different for
persecution, right? So, but

Dave Leake (10:29):
I just think the other thing too is when we're
talking about the anti Christianbias in pop culture, we're
talking about anti conservativeChristian Right, as opposed to
progressive, inclusive. So

Jeff Leake (10:43):
just for sure, just fruitful disclosure, the real
Joe Smith, if you were to lookat his Instagram profile, has a
LGBTQ rainbow on his profileright. And he pastors an open
and affirming Church, whichmeans that he would not hold to
biblical authority when it comesto building doctrine, right?

(11:05):
Yeah? Well, yeah. I wonder

Dave Leake (11:06):
what he would say about that, but he would
probably say some of those thatare outdated or they're
misinterpreted, but most Biblescholars that we would take
seriously would be like, I mean,it's really clear on issues of
Christian sexuality, realizeit's a sensitive issue, yeah,
culture, but the Bible is notunclear, yeah,

Jeff Leake (11:24):
and, and just just, you know, everybody's probably
aware of these things to somedegree, but even, like the
United Methodist Church has justrecently had a split over, not
over Christian nationalismversus progressive political
parties, but over this issue of,what does the Bible say about
sexuality? If you are affirming,you tend to believe that the

(11:46):
Bible doesn't have any moralvalues on sex, that sex is just
sex, and there's not anyrestrictions on it, and it
basically, no matter what youcome from or how you identify,
you should be included in thechurch without it being labeled
as sinful. There's probably

Dave Leake (12:02):
varying degrees of that, though, so they might say
that as long as it's within thepracticed covenant of marriage,
it doesn't matter who you marry,as long as it's within like,
I've heard of some affirmingchurches being like that, like,
but maybe it's leaving that,

Jeff Leake (12:16):
yeah, because as soon as you say that, you offend
the rest of the group, right,right? So the group basically
has this idea that any to anyplace, you draw a line or set a
standard, you're creating anarbitrary outside form of
authority. And that is a bigpart of the reason why there is

(12:38):
a change in doctrine is thatthere's not a recognition of
authority, that everyone is anauthority for themselves and
shows up as they are, and needsto be allowed to be themselves
and be accepted as such, right,right? So those

Dave Leake (12:51):
kind of churches are like an inclusive, quote,
unquote moral, you know, safespace, yeah.

Jeff Leake (12:57):
And so the now the Methodist Church, the historic
Methodist Church and the globalMethodist Church has separated,
has had a massive globaldivision over this one thought,
right? This one doctrinalquestion, and there have been
that you have the affirminggroup and the non affirming
group, or the affirming groupand the and then what we call
the biblical group that haveseparated from one another. And

(13:19):
this is the divide that'shappening across our country
when it comes to worldview andreligious perspective.

Dave Leake (13:25):
Yeah, it's sad. It's really sad to me. Yeah, to watch
the split that's happening. I,yeah, when, when I, when I'm
this is sort of a side note, butreading Revelation, you know,
where Jesus talks in Revelationtwo and three about churches and
he's, you know, holding themaccountable for what the
permitting and stuff. I'm surethis has to break God's heart to
watch the splitting a part ofour church on such a massive

(13:48):
international, you know, globalscale, yeah. But anyway, leaving
global, coming back towardsAmerica for a second. So the
what triggered this video again,is that there is a there is a
new task force that PresidentTrump has commissioned that's
called the task force toeradicate anti Christian bias,

(14:12):
and it's comprised of members ofhis cabinet and key government
agencies. I'm reading this offof the White House right now.
Let's say White house.govthey're going to review the
activities of all departmentsand agencies to identify and
eliminate anti Christianpolicies, practices or conduct.
And so what the real Joe Smithwas saying is that this is a

(14:34):
power move. It's not really forChristians. It's for people that
call those Christians thataren't really Christians,
because Jesus would never dothis. And then he says at the
end, it's not just aboutpolitics. It's blasphemy, okay,
so, which I think is the mainthing that I was like, What?
What do you mean by blasphemy?
Like,

Unknown (14:50):
yeah, so what's our definition? We get, what is
blasphemy? Dave,

Dave Leake (14:54):
let's see. I'm gonna just google this really quick,
because I it's better to have a.
Yeah, better to have anarticulate definition. Okay?
Blasphemy is defined as theactor offense of speaking
sacrilegiously about God orsacred, sacred things. So you
can blaspheme against the HolySpirit. You know it's, it's like

(15:16):
calling, calling God evil. It'sblasphemy. Is, is direct. You
know, what's the right word?
It's derogatory comments towardssomething holy, sacred, but
especially God, I think, is whatblasphemy is. So the idea of an
anti, anti religious bias, TaskForce, religious bias, or anti,

(15:38):
let me see anti. Was it say antiChristian bias?

Jeff Leake (15:43):
Yeah, okay, it blasphemy. So this is where I
think, I think now we have tobroaden so if Trump put together
an anti Islamophobic group tosay if there, if there's any
prejudice against Islam, we wantto root it out and make sure
that they have religiousfreedom. No one would object to

(16:05):
that, or see that as Islam,Islamic nationalism, right? Or
if there was an a group to rootout anti semitism, which would
be against Jewish people, Idon't think anyone would object
to that. Yeah,

Dave Leake (16:15):
or, or xenophobia in general, like people that are
coming of immigrants orwhatever, yeah. So,

Jeff Leake (16:20):
so an anti Christian task force to make sure that
Christians have protections. Idon't see that as Christian
nationalism. I think that's agross exaggeration, because
Trump is not, technically, asfar as we know, a Christian, and
he's just simply saying, hey, itdoes appear, like under the
Biden administration, that therewere some moments where

(16:41):
Christians were unnecessarilyharassed, at the very least, if
not imprisoned. Like examples, Isaw this one clip. I wish I had
it ready for us, but it was of ablack lady who was being let out
of a out of prison. She waspardoned by Trump because she

(17:01):
had been arrested for protestingoutside of an abortion clinic,
and so she had, like, a one yearold baby, and she'd been in
prison for months and months andmonths, and Trump pardoned her,
and she comes out of the prisoncell, and she's like, runs to
her husband and and they'relike, saying, Thank You, Jesus,
oh my goodness. And kissing oneanother, it was brought me to
tears. Oh, my goodness. So therewere some moments under the

(17:23):
Biden administration where atleast it was reported that FBI
agents were infiltratingCatholic churches to see if they
were talking about pro lifethings. In Great Britain, you
have if you stand outside of anabortion clinic and pray
silently, you can be arrestedand imprisoned in Canada. I was

(17:43):
driving with a pastor inWinnipeg, and he said, If I were
to preach a biblical messageabout sexuality, I could be put
in prison for that. So to saythat it doesn't exist and it's
nowhere is that's probably nottrue, whether there needs to be
a whole task force to defendChristianity or not. That's a

(18:04):
that's a question, I guess. Andhe then pitted it against
certain marginalized groups arereceiving attention and getting
some rights, and this antiChristian task force is being
put up because Christians areafraid that as LGBTQ plus people

(18:25):
receive rights or get attention,that they're threatened by that,
and so this is a response tothat, and I think that this is a
legitimate conversation that wehave to have. So I'm actually a
part of an initiative across thecountry to build bridges and
being bring peace betweendifferent religious groups. It's
called multi faith fam neighborsnetwork, sorry, multi faith

(18:48):
neighbors network, led led by anImam, a Christian pastor and a
Jewish rabbi. And I was on aconference call with them at one
point in time where theyactually talked about how in the
West, there is this collisionright now between civil rights
and religious freedom. So thereis this push for civil rights to
be granted to LGBTQ plus people,and at some point that collides

(19:13):
with religious freedom as topeople who wouldn't necessarily
agree with or align with thosevalues. And so we have this
collision that's happening ofhow far. We'll

Dave Leake (19:22):
explain that more in detail.

Unknown (19:24):
Okay, so let's say a right

Dave Leake (19:28):
for a gay couple to get married or to collides with
religious organizations, freedomto only marry somebody by a
Bible. Or there was

Jeff Leake (19:36):
a guy in Colorado who would not as as a Christian,
would make a wedding cake for acouple that was getting married
and wanted to have two dudes onthe cake. And he said, I can't
do that. And meantime, myChristian conscience, and so
they sued him, and they he theywon, and then he won a counter
suit, and back and forth, it'sgone as to, as to whether or not

(19:59):
matter. Of religious conscienceare legal right and and so how
far into the whole will thispush for civil rights push
Christians, and how far shouldChristians be able to go without
infringing on someone else'scivil rights? This is kind of
the debate back and forth inthat particular issue, and this

(20:20):
is happening all across theWest. This is not just an
American thing. This is, this isall across now. Pastor Joe
White, who leads an affirmingchurch, would never feel any
pressure from this particularissue, because he agrees with
popular culture,

Dave Leake (20:36):
right? So he's probably trying to, he's

Jeff Leake (20:38):
he's never going to be persecuted as a Christian,
because his Christianity alignswith the LGBTQ push for civil
rights, and so his Christianfaith and really celebrated is
celebrated exactly, but atwhatever point you draw a line
and you say, I think that's sin.
I think that's unbiblical,again, we're not talking about
so this is always tough wheneveryou're talking about this

(21:00):
particular issue, if you findyourself in a same sex attracted
position, or you're in an LGBTQrelationship, we're not we're
not attacking you. We love you.
God loves you. We we wantnothing but the best for you.
Now we're talking about societalissues really. We're not talking
about personal ones and and sowhere he would align with the

(21:22):
worldview of the LGBTQcommunity. His Christianity
encompasses that.

Dave Leake (21:28):
So let me, let me take a side, side trail just to
encompass what you said. I don'tknow that we have a lot of new
listeners that are going to bebut if you are joining us,
because maybe you heard aboutthis and you wanted to get
involved, yeah, the line you'retrying to walk is for us as
Christians and as pastors, weneed to be really clear about
what the Bible says, so that ifyou are trying to follow Jesus,

(21:49):
you're able to do what Hecommands, which is to submit
fully to him on every matter youknow, so that we actually he's
leading us, and that includessexuality and identity, right?
And think, you know, Jesusaddresses this all the time when
he talks about sexual morality.
Sexual morality at the

Jeff Leake (22:03):
same time, we also believe that every human being
has dignity, and everyone shouldbe treated with dignity, and no
one should be targeted, made funof, or made to feel like other
simply because you are choosingto live a lifestyle that we
would say doesn't align withscripture. But you're a part of
this culture, you're part ofthis country, you should have
the opportunity to be treated ina way that you don't feel

(22:26):
diminished or attacked. Yes, soyou can actually believe both
that the Bible teaches certainthings about sexuality and that
every person should be treatedwith a level of love and dignity
and and have certain civilrights available to them? Sure.
Okay, so, so the two polarizedparts of our culture, which have

(22:47):
become highly politicized, donot allow room for the position
I just described, and the what?
What are we calling this side ofChristianity, Dave, the Joe,
white side of Christianity

Dave Leake (23:01):
we are. We are calling so if he's laboring

Jeff Leake (23:05):
the conservative side Christianity, yeah, if he's
leaving the conservative sideChristian issue, Christian
nationalism, the side ofChristianity that Joe would
consider himself a part of wouldbe probably progressive

Dave Leake (23:16):
Christianity, or you could just call it affirming
Christianity. Okay, it's alittle more clear. If we're just
focusing on gender and sexualityaffirming Christianity. Describe

Unknown (23:23):
that affirming Christianity? Yeah,

Dave Leake (23:27):
there. It's a branch of Christianity that that
strongly questions traditionalinterpretations of Scripture and
dogma, and they seek tounderstand Scripture and in the
most inclusive way they seetraditional interpretations of
Scripture that are exclusivemeaning to say, you know, gay

(23:48):
marriage, for example, is a sinfor Christians or or the fluid
types of gender stuff thatthat's not congruent with a
biblical worldview, they wouldsay that that is old fashioned.
It's It's bigoted, it's amisinterpretation of the heart
of Jesus. Jesus would have beenaligned with us now today. So
affirming Christianity sort ofsees parts of the Bible as non

(24:10):
authoritative. They're sort ofhistorical. They're outdated. We
should actually understand thespirit of the law and not just
the letter of the law itself.
Yeah,

Jeff Leake (24:18):
and I would say it's not Christianity. It's more of a
worldview and belief systemcalled universalism, because
most of these churches wouldn'tsee the cross as essential to
salvation. They wouldn't seeJesus atonement as payment for
sin and the only way to be rightwith God. They wouldn't
understand the Bible asauthoritative. So they're not

(24:39):
leading people to a place ofrepentance through the cross of
Jesus Christ into a place ofpersonal salvation, they tend to
see it as everybody is comingin, okay as they are and we are.
Our job is to be a servant andto be loving and to be
inclusive, so that everyone,regardless of their religious
perspective or their sexualOrient. Temptation or their

(25:01):
identification is equallyaccepted by God, and now we want
to do community together. Wewould see the cross of Jesus
Christ, repentance from sin andconfession of Christ as Savior
as central to what Christianityis. But let's just say Pastor
Joe Smith is a Universalistunder the label of Christianity.
That doesn't mean I hate him, itjust means it's different from

(25:23):
my worldview. But just because Idisagree with him, that doesn't
make me a Christian nationalist,and I think that's or a bigot or
a bigot. Yes, right? Sure. Sothere is this tendency for one
side to lob grenades at theother side and say, look how
toxic you are. When, in myopinion, anyone who's
politicizing their faith to thisdegree is toxic.

Dave Leake (25:49):
You know, he almost the post that he had almost
wasn't toxic. Yeah, it wasreally close, because I agree
with a lot of what he said. Butthen, as he keeps going, it's,
it's clearly such a politicalperspective, you know? So I
think for us, what our primaryconcern is is take politics out

(26:11):
of it. Let's just talk about,what does Jesus say? How do we
live as Christians in the worldthat we live in? And then we
want to address things like so,and we'll, maybe we should talk
about this in a second. But soare Christians persecuted? What?
How should we view this? Youknow, how should we feel about
an anti discrimination againstChristians Task Force all that?

Jeff Leake (26:29):
Actually, I'm, honestly, I'm happy about that.
Yeah, me too. But I was gonnasay that doesn't make me
Christian nationalist. It's niceto know that the country I live
in feels that I can practice myfaith without being
discriminated against. I likethat. That doesn't mean I want
to take someone else's rightsfrom them, but I want to be able
to live my faith without beingput under pressure. So to put me

(26:51):
who thinks that's a good idea ina category of Christian
nationalism is unfair. Yeah,

Dave Leake (26:57):
yeah. I think, I think the big difference is
Christian nationalists wantdominance. They actually do
primarily want power. And Iguess I could understand how,
from a certain perspective, youcould use a task force like this
as a club, as a club, yeah,yeah. Like a, not a not a social
club, a threat, battering club,right? Yes, don't you dare, or

(27:21):
else we're gonna crush you.
Yeah? We'll come down anybodywho does, and

Jeff Leake (27:24):
that would be a wrong use of power, absolutely.
Yeah, no doubt. But

Dave Leake (27:30):
protecting Christian rights, well, I'm a Christian,
yeah? Kind of what my rights. Solet's

Jeff Leake (27:34):
just talk about if, and this is the other part that
I agree with him, if I ampersecuted for my following
Jesus? To me, that's not a badthing, necessarily. That just
means I'm the real deal, thatpeople see me as someone that's
enough of a threat because Ifollow Jesus, because Jesus was
persecuted too, and he said thatwe should expect that. But my
response to that is not to tryto gain power. So this never

(27:58):
happens again. It's to bewilling to die for people,
right? It's to be willing tolove. In fact, Jesus said,
Rejoice in me glad, becausegreat is your reward in heaven.
However, if you sue me, pleasedon't. But if you did over
something I taught that youdisagreed with, I would hire a
lawyer, and I would seek todefend myself that you can

(28:20):
persecute me, and I can stilluse the law to try to prevent
undue suffering or somethingthat seems unjust or unfair. So
if the law is being enforced toprotect religious freedom, that
isn't necessarily a bad responseto persecution, that's just
simply living in a societythat's governed by laws and and

(28:42):
and courts and using the systemto make sure that your faith has
the space to be practiced in inin its uh fullness, without
persecution. So the fact that welive in a society of laws
should, should, you know,Muslims should feel this way.
Bud should feel this way.
Atheists should feel this way,that whatever your belief
system, you should use theprotections of the law to

(29:02):
protect your ability to practiceyour religion freely. And our
hope would be that every nationon earth would do everything
within its power to protectreligious freedom for anyone
that's sure being persecuted.
The other thing, the

Dave Leake (29:17):
other thing about Christian nationalism, that's a
nuanced take that we I know wetalked about this in a whole
episode, but it's like, sowhereas Christian nationalists
want everything to be a it's aChristian nation. And maybe they
will, they would exclude a lotof groups. And maybe, maybe the
worry would be they're gonna,you know, stomp on their rights
for the sake of Christianshaving more of what they want.

(29:38):
There, there is this weirdmiddle ground where it's like
but it's a good thing to haveBible believing Christians in
place of influence, like, if wewant a more just society, sure
we want a more Jesus.

Jeff Leake (29:50):
Well, I think Joe would see himself as an
extension of Christianity. Ithink he would and trying to use
his voice for things that hebelieved. So he would see
inclusion. As a Christianprinciple, and he's using his
voice for that. Okay, so I thinkthat we should, we shouldn't be
silenced in the public square atthe same time. We should want

(30:12):
protections for people who arein minority groups. Yeah, right.
So I think those two things canhappen simultaneously, and
that's, that's the challengenow, evidently, there's a
documentary that's out. Wedidn't, don't have time to go
into this one that is sort of a,what you would call a
progressive Christianity attackon Christian nationalism called

(30:33):
God and country. I willdefinitely watch this later. And
as as is a par for the coursewith partisan pieces, right?
This is a partisan production toattack Republican slash
conservative Christians. I wouldI would say there are probably

(30:54):
some partisan documentaries thatattack left slash progressive
Christians, sure. And here's howyou can tell a partisan, someone
who speaks out of theirChristian perspective, but only
ever addresses the concerns theyhave with one side of the
political aisle is not speakingprophetically. They're speaking

(31:17):
in a partisan fashion. Sure, ifyour critique only critiques the
left or only critiques theright, then you've been captured
by the culture war, and you aremore aligned with a political
party with a desire for powerthan you are in trying to
represent the values of thekingdom of God. When I hear
someone who's willing to speakto both sides of the equation

(31:40):
that isn't owned and captured byone or the other. To me, that's
a voice that I would tend tolisten to. So I guess here's one
pastoral comment, listen. Becareful who you listen to. Don't
let yourself be swallowed bypartisanism. And there is this
almost sense of superiority thatpartisans have over their

(32:03):
opponents. On both sides of theequation, there's sort of a
moral superiority, like we arethe be all and end all, and
you're the devil. And I thinkthat's also a very dangerous
position to stake out. And so Ithink the real Joe White is
probably a partisan definitely,even though he's brought out

(32:24):
some things that we would lookat and say, true, true, true,
true. I'm not sure about that. Itotally disagree with that,
right? He's coming in from avery partisan perspective.

Dave Leake (32:34):
Yeah, I it's just such a tricky this whole thing
is such a tricky topic to me,because I do understand the
heart of what he's going for,yeah. And I want those same
things. Like, I want anybody tobe able to walk into our
churches and feel loved andincluded, like, regardless of

(32:54):
what they look like, regardlessas to, yeah, you know what
labels they're using forthemselves. But I also want to
be able to be a place that isbeing faithful to what Jesus is
asking of us. And I feel likethere's so much I don't know,
obfuscation, right? Is the worddescribe so much muddying of the
waters. There's so much pressureon okay, even like us, every

(33:18):
time we have one of thesediscussions, there's this, what
can we say? What should we say?
What should we don't want to usecertain labels, because it'll
throw a whole group into afrenzy because they're like,
What do you mean by that? Yeah,like, and I get that. I know
that's the world that we livein. I realize you're never gonna
make everybody happy, but Iwould love to be as
representative of the inclusiveheart of everybody can come to

(33:39):
the cross type of heart that Ithink Joe was trying to have,
yet at the same time being ascrystal clear, to not avoid
passage of scripture that arecontroversial, well, ultimately,

Jeff Leake (33:50):
pleasing God. Yeah, like Jesus has opinions on
things. And I want everyone tofeel welcome, but I also want
the Holy Spirit to feel welcome.
Yeah, exactly. So at some pointI can't just compromise what I
know the Scripture teaches onthings, because in my desire to
include everybody, I may, I maynot being be faithful to who God
is and what and what he's theway that he's challenged us to

(34:16):
live our lives. Yeah, and and sothis is the, I think this is the
tension in every generation. Itjust happens to be this. This
tension is brought to thesurface. Okay, way more

Dave Leake (34:29):
so I haven't, I have a thought of where we can go
with this whole, this wholeconversation. So my question,
and on a practice we've

Unknown (34:35):
covered quite a bit so far, but yes, take us further.

Dave Leake (34:37):
Yeah, yeah. Okay. So my sort of question revolves
around. So I'll start with,where do we go from here? In
this sense, I was just thinkingabout this as we're sitting
across each other. So this iswe, think we started in 2019, so
we're in our sixth year rightnow, I guess, something like
that, and we start. BeforeCOVID, and then COVID Hit in the

(35:02):
middle of our first year of ourpodcast, and all this, and the
level of like topics that we'veaddressed definitely escalated.
There was like, a certain level.
It's like, let's not even, let'snot even go anywhere near this.
And then I feel like it's justlike, okay, more and more things
are clear. We're figuring outhow to have public discussions
about very highly sensitive,volatile topics, I guess my

(35:23):
question, where do we go fromhere? So I don't agree with
Joe's the real Joe White. Isthat his name? I don't agree
with his Smith, not Joe White.
Joe White, yeah, he's a goodfriend.

Unknown (35:37):
We love Joe.

Dave Leake (35:40):
Real Joe Smith, okay, I think I said Joe White
earlier, too. Whoops. Joe Smith,okay, anyway, I don't agree with
his worldview. I don't agreewith his perspective. I don't
agree with his view on theBible. But he brings up this
point, Christians are beingperceived in one of a number of
ways. There's all these churchsplits and stuff. So as
Christians, and probably morespecifically as pastoral

(36:01):
leaders. I guess my question andthought is, how do we how do we
talk about these kinds ofthings? So forget just the anti
discriminatory against ChristianTask Force. Yeah, as people that
should be concerned about theway that Christians are being
represented, which I think isJoe's primary concern like,

(36:22):
where do we go from here? I usedto, I don't feel like to me, we
can stay at this level of somethings are pulpit level
discussions. Some things are oneon one discussions. Because, do
you ever hear that, uh, youknow, Marilyn Manson is,

Unknown (36:38):
he's a rock and roll guy? Yeah, that

Dave Leake (36:40):
he's really creepy.
Yeah, he's old now it's, yeah,he was like, when I was growing
up, Marilyn Minson was, like, abig thing, like, they're saying
sort of satanic music, yeah,very creepy. He said, he said
some quote a long time ago, andI'm going to totally butcher it,
but he was saying somethinglike, you know, parents make,
make sure you're, you know,having real conversation with
your kids. Because if you're notteaching them I'm, I am the one
that's going to be like, they'regoing to be listening to what

(37:02):
I'm saying. And I think he wassort of like tongue in cheek
saying that, yeah, but it'slike, there's always going to be
like, so whether or not we saysomething the other side,
meaning that is opposed tocertain Christian ideas or

Jeff Leake (37:16):
or just a couple years ago, there was this spoof
song that uh, LGBTQ choir sangin San Francisco, and they said
it was a joke, but the wholesong was, Don't worry about your
objections to us, because we'llconvert your children. The whole
song was, we're gonna we'regonna go after your kids, and
we're gonna teach them what webelieve, and it'll be too late

(37:37):
before you know it. And thenthey took the song down because
they didn't want it to be soaggressive, but it, but listen,
it does. It does appear likethere is a worldview collision
between what we would call, um,what, what was the thing we both
preached about this weekendsimultaneously, impressive
individualism, expressiveindividualism, which is a
version of paganism, which saysthat sexuality and identity have

(38:01):
no root in objective or biblicalrealities. Wait,

Dave Leake (38:04):
wait, wait to be clear. You're talking about
something different. Okay, okay,please be clear. So expressive
individualism, the idea is, theway our culture tends to think
is that each person is their ownindividual, and the way to find
fulfillment is to understandyourself better. It's to figure
out your own truth. It's toreject external source of

(38:25):
authority. You're your ownauthority, right? Which

Jeff Leake (38:28):
then leads to, it does? It can lead to the modern
version of paganism.

Dave Leake (38:32):
But there, okay, there. There is a there. I'm
only partially pushing back alittle bit just because, like,
if you're, if you takepersonality tests, the
Enneagram, Myers, Briggs, that'sa form of expressive
individualism, if you're tryingto understand how, God, you
know, you take those giftstests. Yeah, that's an
expression of self. So the idealike, it's not all bad, but if
you, if you fully delve into theprimary purpose of life, or way

(38:56):
to find happiness, is todiscover me, to have my esteem
be as high as possible, to knowwhat I like, adult like, to
accept myself because I'menough, that leads to a sort of
self worshiping paganism. Wetalked about that we're self
worshiping pagans. That onething that Nathaniel said, well,
our

Jeff Leake (39:13):
last podcast episode was about self love, of the
danger of that, right, right?
Which is, I guess, what we'retalking about. So keep going.
Well,

Dave Leake (39:19):
yeah, so, well, I don't know where you're going
with that. I was just definingthe term, oh,

Jeff Leake (39:22):
so socialism. So there is a collision between
that worldview and what we wouldcall historic Christianity,
right? Yeah. And so one says, Beyourself, find yourself, love
yourself. The other one says,die to yourself. Live for Jesus.
Put God first. Put God at thecenter live under his authority.

(39:42):
So one says we need to tear downall structures of authority
because they're oppressive tous, and the other says we need
to uphold biblical and godlyauthority because they're the
basis for a healthy life,

Dave Leake (39:54):
by the way, can I?
Can I read the email I sent you?
Yeah, go ahead. So because IYou're preaching about it. This
coming weekend, which it'll bethe past Sunday by the time this
comes out, right? And I preachedabout this this past weekend.
Hilarious, that it was justrandom. It's not like we're
talking about this at dinner. Itjust kind of came up, okay, but
I was just searching this, and Ithink AI actually wrote this

(40:15):
definition here. So take it withan AI grain of salt, but I think
it's pretty accurate for we'reso we're talking about
expressive individualism. Itemphasizes self expression and
the idea that people should befree to discover and express
their true selves. It's based onthe idea that people are defined
by their inner feelings anddesires. So key tenant self
expression, the purpose of life,is to express your inner self to

(40:36):
the world. Self discovery,people should look within to
discover their deepest desiresand longing. Authenticity. When
I got to this point, I was like,oh, yeah, this is it. That's the
most overused word right now.
Authenticity. People should betrue to themselves and follow
their hearts. Self authority.
People are the ultimateauthority in their own lives.
Self definition. People shouldnot be constrained by

(40:57):
traditional ideologies orexternal influences, and then it
goes on to have implications. Sowhat does this mean?
Practically, people shouldalways behave in ways that are
consistent with their innerfeelings. People should
associate with others who affirmtheir identity. People should
not be judged by others forexpressing their true selves,
and people should be tolerant ofothers self defined quests for

(41:18):
individual freedom. Okay?

Jeff Leake (41:20):
That is the religion of popular culture. It is
exactly that is notChristianity.

Dave Leake (41:25):
It's really not and it's actually opposed to
Christianity to a lot of ways.
So

Jeff Leake (41:29):
just walk through a couple and give me the Christian
counter to it. Okay, self

Dave Leake (41:33):
expression, the purpose of life is to is, is to
express your inner self to theworld. What would Jesus say? The
purpose of life is to becomelike Jesus and less like your
inner self. Yeah, okay. Give methis. Another one. Okay, um,
self discovery. People shouldlook within to discover their
deepest desires and longings.
What would we say? People shouldlook to the Word of God to
discover God's desires andlongings for them. Keep going.

(41:55):
Okay? Authenticity. Peopleshould be true to themselves and
follow their hearts. Peopleshould the Christian version is
people should not trust theirhearts and should use an
external compass like the Wordof God to help

Jeff Leake (42:10):
God and direct that they have to be true to God's
expectations. I guess we're

Dave Leake (42:13):
talking about authenticity. Doesn't mean we
should be a fake version ofourselves, but we should realize
that our hearts, our hearts, arenot the truest indicator of who
we're called to be. That's allI'm trying to say. Self
authority. People the ultimateauthority. Easy, definitely not
true. You know, God's theultimate authority. Self
definition. People should not beconstrained by traditional
ideologies or externalinfluences, whereas the

(42:36):
Christian worldview is peopleshould 100% constrain
themselves. Yeah, submit

Jeff Leake (42:41):
to God's and submit, submit to authority, submit to
one another in marriage. Likesubmission is a key core
doctrine. It is

Dave Leake (42:50):
and it's dying to yourself. So this is all about
like, letting yourself flourish,finding the part of yourself
that is most true to you,letting it be cultivated and
letting it grow and blossom intothe beautiful version of you
that you're supposed to be. ButChristianity says

Jeff Leake (43:08):
you're not as damaged, yeah, and you need to
be born again, right by the HolySpirit's work in your life, to
recreate you into the image ofChrist. So the

Dave Leake (43:17):
flawed version of you is actually very toxic, and
what you need to do is to submitthat to die a death like Jesus
did, to be recreated, as youjust said, and actually to allow
God to shape you into His image,yes, and not to be shaped in
your own image, right? So

Jeff Leake (43:33):
these two world views are incongruent. They are
and the popular culture andprogressive side of
Christianity, even though Iwould call it universalism,
teaches these tenets, yeah. Andconservative Christians, I guess
you would say, or maybe bettersaid, biblical Christians teach

(43:53):
the tenants that we justpresented to you as submitted to
Christ and His Word and Hispurpose for your life, dying to
yourself. And then there's theChristian nationalists who are
more concerned about Americathan they are about any of this.
Yeah, right. And so I don'tappreciate being lumped in just
because I believe in biblicalauthority with people who are

(44:13):
into political power. I thinkthat's unfair, right? But I'm
clearly not a Universalist,sure, even though I love people
who are diff differ from me, andin maybe even practice or
believe something about theirsexuality or their orientation
that I would biblically disagreewith, I absolutely want to love,

(44:35):
serve and care for be friendswith People who are different
from me, right? Imams and rabbisand Buddhists and like, I want
to have relationship witheverybody

Dave Leake (44:46):
and immigrants and people who are, you know, going
through a gender discovery. Thatdoesn't

Jeff Leake (44:50):
mean my desire for to be inclusive, that I'm gonna
now subscribe to criticaltheory, sure, and to want to
pull down every existing powerstructure to. Establish a
Marxist reality in the world,which is oftentimes the
undertones of the progressive,progressive Christian almost.
You can hear it in Joe Smith'stone, like, this is just the

(45:12):
majority culture, right? When heused that phrase, I thought
critical theory, right? Yeah,this is the majority culture
that's using their power tooppress minority groups, and we
as Christians need to tear downthe power structures,

Dave Leake (45:27):
because you just didn't

Jeff Leake (45:28):
want power anyway.
So give it away, right? But it'shis. Isn't just about I want to
serve everybody his hisobjective. So he says
Christianity's Christiannationalist. Wants to power up
on everybody. ProgressiveChristians often want to tear
down power, yeah, and neitherone of those are Jesus's
mindset. Jesus didn't come downto tear anybody's power down,

(45:49):
right? He came to bring about anew reality, which is the
kingdom of

Dave Leake (45:54):
God. So I just, I've been in this sermon series for a
few weeks now where we'restudying the book of Daniel, and
it's, it's actually on this. Somy question is, where do we go
from here? How do we how do weinterface with the world, like
being clear, but also beingaccepting of anybody that wants
to explore Christianity, thatwants to come and see Jesus,

(46:15):
like we want to be a place whereanybody can come in absolutely
hear the Gospel,

Jeff Leake (46:19):
and even if they don't receive Jesus. We want
them to be a place where theyfeel loved

Dave Leake (46:23):
and cared for. So there's this in the book of
Daniel. The setting of the storyis because of how evil the
nation of Israel was, the peopleof God, how many times they
rejected Him, He delivers theminto captivity, into the hands,
initially, of the Assyrians, whothen get conquered by the
Babylonians. And so all ofIsrael is living there for a
period of 70 years. And the ideaof my sermon series I've been

(46:46):
talking about is like, Daniel, Idon't know about him
specifically, but, but a wholegeneration, they're born in
Babylon, and it's, how are theygoing to live as God's people in
a fallen kingdom? So my ideawas, you know, for us, we also
are born in spiritual Babylon.
But when you come to Jesus,you're reborn into the kingdom
of God. So how do we distinguishand differentiate what is

(47:07):
culture and what is the kingdom?
And how are they opposed?
Because the movement ofChristianity for the last 20
years has been like, look,Christians are normal. We're not
weird. We don't do all, youknow. We don't dress different,
like we have lights and smoke.
We have guitars like, you know,I know pop culture references. I

(47:30):
listen to the same rappers thatyou do. It's like, that sort of
a thing. But I think that sortof can blend to make this
syncretistic, as we've talkedabout this, this blended version
of Christianity and culture, butwe probably have to separate
them.

Jeff Leake (47:42):
So now you're saying we've done enough blending. Now
we need to differentiate.

Dave Leake (47:47):
Now we don't want to be we don't want to be holier
than thou, we don't want to bemorally superior or better or
judgmental, but we do need to belike, not everything in culture
is fine, like culture is notneutral. And I think the way
that even a lot of churches, theway we talk about cultures, of
culture and pop culture, isneutral. A lot of it, okay,

Jeff Leake (48:08):
well, the Christian nationalists will be, we're
against culture. We're attackingculture, right? We want to
dominate culture. Theprogressive Christian is be
like, we just need to relax, andculture is not really that bad,
and basically it's the samething as what we believe. And
you're

Dave Leake (48:24):
taking, you're taking this anti Christian stuff
too seriously, yeah, Jesuswouldn't have cared. Yeah,
right.

Jeff Leake (48:30):
And, but you're saying somewhere in the middle
is we're not railing againstculture, and we're not blending
into it. What we are doing is weare,

Dave Leake (48:38):
well, so, so when they're in captivity. Jeremiah,
actually, he's a prophet. Heinstructs them pray for Babylon,
that it would flourish, becauseif they flourish, you're going
to prosper as well. So like, themodel we get for living as God's
people in a fallen Kingdom is,like, do your best to acclimate.
Not acclimate, isn't accepttheir culture. But like,

(48:59):
flourish as much as you can,while you're here, ask God to
bless you. Represent God'speople. Daniel, where you can

Jeff Leake (49:04):
work with culture.
Work with culture, yeah? Whereyou need to speak to it, because
it's not correct. Speak to it,yeah? Where you need to engage
with their

Dave Leake (49:11):
purity. Yeah.
Daniel, one is all about howhe's not gonna they there's
pressure to eat the king's food,to break the kosher laws that
would, you know, violate acovenant with God. And he's
like, he appeals even on pain ofdeath, like, Please don't make
me eat this food. And theydon't. God gives them favor.
It's a perfect parallel, yeah,to what we live in now.

Jeff Leake (49:29):
Okay, so here's what's so, so difficult. So I
appreciate we'll go back towhere we started with Dave Sure,
Tammy 's question on Facebook.
So I know Tammy has been servingGod for a long time. So maybe
she's a bad example of thisparticular point, but you got a
brand new person that justrecently came to Christ, and
they don't know much about theBible or biblical truth, and
they live in a in a world that'sgot this. I mean, we're pastors,

(49:51):
and we're trying to make senseof the political turmoil and the
back and forth and posts onsocial media. And I think, like,
like, we just. Listen to Joe,Joe Smith, and we present. I
agree with part of that. I don'tagree with part of it. But if
you're, if you're just newlybeing discipled as a Christian,
right? How in the world? Like,what a challenging time, yeah, I
think in some ways, it shouldforce you, if you really want to

(50:15):
follow Christ, to ask thequestion, what do I really
believe? What Does the BibleReally Teach? And who do I want
to look to to help me to workthis out totally because if you
just so I think this, likecasual Christians, you're going
to get eaten up, like there isso much pressure that if you're
just trying to coast throughlife and hope that Jesus gives

(50:38):
you a better existence. This isnot that world anymore. You want
to know,

Dave Leake (50:45):
if you want to know what's a perfect illustration
this point, yeah, one of thetrendiest things in the
Christian world on social mediaright now, Catholicism, by far,
because it's so clear. Yeah? Imean, it is so so, there's a
history, there's rules, yeah,high church, liturgical
movements. And I don't thinkit's as much because people are

(51:06):
attracted to tradition. They'reattracted to certain clarity,
yeah, clarity, clarity. It'slike, oh, we know what's
Christian and what's not and weknow what's being asked. And I
think there's a hunger and anappetite like, Okay, you're
you're saying this,

Unknown (51:20):
but like, what? What do you really mean here? Yes,

Dave Leake (51:23):
yes. And I feel that, like it's, I think it's,
it's probably even a heavierweight on the Gen Z, and the
ones that come out gonna butthere's a huge conversion right
now. I mean, there's kids in ouryouth group right now that are
sort of converting to COVID,because I'll

Jeff Leake (51:40):
tell you what the blah of universal progressive
Christianity is just blah.
There's just, if you have aversion of faith that has no
stated true convictions, it'sjust. It's just,

Dave Leake (51:52):
or they're the exact same as what the culture says.
Yeah, why would you need to goto church? It's everywhere.
Yeah? Social justice, and it'snot that all those things are
against the gospel, but whenthey are put on a pedestal like
this, they're elevated aboveJesus. Yeah, right, because
that's not what he teaches interms of the order of priority,
like, justice is a priority toGod, but the way that Justice

(52:15):
gets elevated, justice

Jeff Leake (52:17):
isn't bigger than God Exactly.

Dave Leake (52:19):
Yeah, yes, exactly, exactly, and they're often tied
to political parties. So I don'tknow if we, I mean, maybe we
did. Where do we go from here?
Like, obviously, we're talkingabout rooting yourself in a
church that's going to be clearabout what the Bible says and
finding a pure version ofChristianity. But it's in terms
of, like, how, well,

Jeff Leake (52:38):
I think, I think, honestly, Ark about this is a
big reason why the podcast haspicked up momentum, and we have
more listeners, and we feel likeeven more devoted to the purpose
of this podcast, because it'shere we have these discussions,
but you're actually saying, ifthe discussions only stay on a
podcast, then we're probably notdoing our job. They have to make
their way into weekend messages,which is why both of us are

(53:00):
preaching on expressiveindividuals, that's right. And
so, I mean, it is working itsway into every aspect of who we
are. Whereas, I think five yearsago, pandemic pre pandemic
moments, by the way, we're March20 today, the pandemic actually
started five years ago lastweek.

Dave Leake (53:22):
Wow, was it the 15th or something? Yeah, I think it
was a 15.

Jeff Leake (53:26):
Anyway, if you were to take me back as a pastoral
leader to pre March, 15, 2020, Iwas pastoring way different than
I am now, yeah, and I have somany regrets about how I was
pastoring that, oh, geez,because the world had become
different, and I didn't know ituntil pandemic hit. Yeah, how

(53:49):
so? Well, I didn't realize howpolarized it was. I mean, I knew
a little bit. I didn't realizehow much syncretism was in the
church. I didn't realize howmuch superficiality, Christian,
superficial Christianity,Christianity was there. I didn't
realize how much I had leftunanswered questions on the
table in my preaching ministry.
I mean, there was just so muchthat I just avoided because I

(54:10):
thought I don't want to talkabout that, because that might
offend somebody not purposelytrying to soft pedal things just
like, like you said, someconversations are better done
one on one than in a in a publicforum. I now realize that's not
true, and I talk abouteverything you do, and I'm not
doing my job if I'm not talkingabout everything, because people
are depending on me to providethem with guidance based upon

(54:33):
the word of God and my pastoralexperience as to where they
should go. So I'm I feel likewe're so much better, I agree,
at leading people now than wewere before, which I think
positions us to see a greatermove of God, because we've
gotten out of the surfaceissues, and we've gotten into
some real depth. Agreed, and Istill long for the days where

(54:57):
the conflict reduces. Yeah, Ithink we even said that a couple
weeks ago. Maybe the conflictsreducing, I don't think it has a
little bit

Dave Leake (55:05):
maybe, in some ways, maybe,

Jeff Leake (55:07):
but maybe that's longing for the wrong thing,
because maybe this societalpressure is actually driving
people to dive into betteranswers than what we had before.

Dave Leake (55:18):
So can I give you some, some of my thoughts about
where we go from here. Sobecause I've been studying
Daniel so much, so I thinkthere's a few things I see from
there. So the the way that SoJeremiah encouraged them to pray
for their culture, even thoughit's fallen, pray for them to
flourish. And we see sort ofthat heart represented in the
interactions that Daniel andsome of the elevated Hebrew

(55:40):
exiles who get put intopolitical power, how they
interact with the rulers? SoDaniel respectfully comes to the
authority above him and is like,Hey, this is going to break my
conscience. Like, can I be giventhe special exemption? And God
gives them favor, and theyflourish because of that. Then
Daniel, several times confrontsKing Nebuchadnezzar, like he

(56:01):
does with his dream in Danieltwo, and then in Daniel four, he
gets brought back in tointerpret the dream, another
dream about a huge tree that Godsaid he's going to cut it down
and make him, make the king gomad for seven years for seeing
himself as a god. And he's like,I wish this was your enemies. I
wish this was anybody but you.
But you know, maybe God willstill stay his judgment eternal.
Talk about speaking truth topower, huh? Yeah, if you repent

(56:23):
of your sin and stop, stopviolating the poor and those so
it's you're basically saying

Jeff Leake (56:29):
we have to learn to live in a wildly pagan culture
that has very negative views ofpeople who believe in Biblical
Christianity, but to act in away that's shrewd and wise and
influential, rather than justgoing to to into a political
war. I'll give you a greatexample to this. You'll you'll
like this example. Dave, sowe're both, we're both European

(56:53):
football soccer fans, right? Ourteam is primarily, yeah, yeah.
We're our team is Chelsea andbut there was a guy that used to
be a part of Chelsea Mark goo,you, yeah, you, oh, that's our
No wait, mate. So he is thedefensive back for Crystal
Palace. And oh,

Dave Leake (57:15):
it's, it's way he Harry. He's an

Jeff Leake (57:18):
African. He his dad is a pastor, okay? It has become
a trend in European soccer thatduring pride month, every
captain of the team has to wearit on. So captains were an
armband anyway, yeah, but theyhave to wear a rainbow armband,
which basically is standing forLGBTQ. So Mark from Crystal
Palace, right? I'll just callhim mark. Was he was faced with

(57:41):
the decision, what do I do? Do Inot wear the arm band? Do I Do I
take a stand by saying, I'm notgoing to wear this these colors?
Instead, what he decided to dois he wore the arm band with
LGBTQ colors, and he wrote ontop of it a magic marker. Jesus
loves you now his statementabout his faith, even though he

(58:04):
wore the armband, Drew intensefire, like people were saying he
should be kicked off the team.
He shouldn't allow to be cat, beable to be captain. He shouldn't
be allowed to play in thePremier League. So this is what
we would call Christianpersecution. All. He didn't
actually take the colors off. Hejust simply stated, which is
actually a very inclusive thingto say, Jesus loves you, right?
And he took his stand, andactually nothing happened to

(58:25):
him, and it was covered wide,widely. It was like a Daniel
move, like he found a way in adifficult situation, to
represent his faith withoutbeing

Dave Leake (58:37):
hateful, yeah, beautiful, yeah. Well, I think
so. I think everything you'resaying is exactly what I'm
trying to get across. It's like,okay, Daniel would have been pro
Babylon. He wanted them tothrive, right? And then pro
Persia, once Persia takes over.
So he's like, I want the successof this nation. I'm on behalf of
God. I'm trying to win thisfallen King Nebuchadnezzar. To

(58:58):
him. He's like, representing GodAlmighty to him. So I think,
like us without compromise,without Yeah, maintaining
purity, being very clear on whathe believes, yet,

Unknown (59:11):
like, like, not from an anti business, yes, yes. And

Dave Leake (59:14):
then he's differentiated several times in
the lion's den story and Danielsex,

Jeff Leake (59:18):
he's clearly different, but so, but he was
still persecuted for it, becausehe was persecuted thrown into a
lion's den where the three guysyou know were were thrown into
the fiery furnace. So, so it'sboth, and it is right. You can
be, you can handle this withprecision, and yet still be
persecuted. Yes, right. So

Dave Leake (59:38):
unless the anti discriminatory against
Christianity. Well,

Unknown (59:42):
Daniel would have wanted that. Where was President
Trump back then to protectDaniel, right

Dave Leake (59:47):
or Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego, yeah, but Jesus,
if

Jeff Leake (59:51):
he hadn't been there, we wouldn't be telling
their story today true, becausethere are some times when you
need to be persecuted because itactually. Lee proves God's point
that he's he's bigger. Yeah.

Dave Leake (01:00:03):
So I think, I think that the day and age we live in
now is always going to havethese kinds of tensions, unless
we see a massive revival and anew great awakening, which is
what I'm still believing andpraying for. But I think we have
to be willing to like be seen asbigots, if what a big it is is
someone that disagrees with,

Jeff Leake (01:00:23):
you know, something that's not biblical. Yes, call
me names if you want right, comeat me, sue me. Try to put me in
jail. I'm not going to change myconvictions.

Dave Leake (01:00:32):
Yeah, yeah. That is the world we live in, yep. And
so we

Jeff Leake (01:00:37):
just pray for Pastor Joe Smith, that God will bless
him. And again, our desire isnothing to diminish who he is.
We're just simply using hispublic comments to have a
conversation. And thank you,Tammy, for suggesting this. And
if we could address somethinginteresting to you, just tag me
on your Facebook post, because

Dave Leake (01:00:55):
I guess you'll see it. Yeah, I'm not on social, but
we'll get it passed alongthrough my through my 60 year
old dad, who's still more intune with culture than me. All
right, hey, well, we appreciateit as always. Thank you for
joining in with us. And as yousaid, you know, if you're on
YouTube, you can always leave usa comment, or maybe you're
watching this on anotherplatform where you can leave a

(01:01:16):
comment, we would love to hear.
We have to say, think somepodcast platforms let you
comment now on that. So you wantto leave us a comment, we would
love to see that you can likeand subscribe on YouTube,
subscribe on Spotify, or Appleor whatever, share it on social
media. And as always, if youleave us a five star review, it
takes you a second. You just gotto go down at our page, click on
the five star, write somethingsmall.

Jeff Leake (01:01:38):
The reason for that is it just helps to put the word
out about our podcast and helpother people through it.

Dave Leake (01:01:43):
It really does, and we would really appreciate it.
So once again, thanks forjoining us. We'll see you guys
again next time you.