Desensitized to the Devil? Navigating Occult Influence on Pop Culture

In this eye-opening episode, Dave and Jeff delve deep into the increasing presence of the occult and Satanic influences in today’s pop culture. 

From video games like 'Fortnite' and TV shows on Disney Plus to music videos and pop culture icons, nothing seems off-limits. 

In light of the Halloween season, they discuss whether these trends are a mere fascination or a genuine spiritual threat, and how Christians should respond. 

They also provide practical advice for parents, discuss the potential dangers of casual entertainment choices, and emphasize the importance of spiritual vigilance. Don't miss this essential conversation for understanding the spiritual undercurrents of contemporary culture.

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Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
So apparently you can sell your soul to Mephisto

(00:02):
on Fortnite shows on Disney,plus, are about witches and
Wiccans. I know we're atHalloween. All these horror
movies are out. To what degreeShould Christians be concerned?
What's a big deal? Is therestuff that maybe isn't that big
of a deal that we're being tooreligious about? Or is this
stuff a serious, genuine threat?
We're gonna talk about thefascination with Satan today in
pop culture. So if you'd like tohear more, tune in. Hey
everybody. Welcome to theAllison Park leadership podcast,

(00:25):
where we have our culturecreating conversations. My name
is Dave, and

Jeff Leake (00:30):
my name is Jeff, and we're glad you've joined us
today. Do we have any shout outsto Dave? We

Dave Leake (00:34):
want to just quickly, you know, do some
gratitudes. Thank you. If you,if you've been a listener for a
while, and especially want togive a shout out to Tiffany.
Tiffany A, B, who gave us a kindfive serve you on Spotify. We
would also love to give you ashout out. If you can leave us a
or that's actually Apple, sorry,Spotify, we can't see the
description, but if you want toleave us five serving, we'd love
to give you a shout out as well.
Hope you're having a good fallseason. We're getting to the end

(00:56):
of the year kind of crazy, yep.
And around this time of year, westart to get into conversations
about all kinds of creepythings, horror movies, weird
commercials, and,

Jeff Leake (01:09):
yeah, we're recording this the week of
Halloween. Basically, it's inabout a week, it's

Dave Leake (01:14):
gonna probably be released around before
Halloween. Maybe Richard backwhen we released before
Halloween. Great. Maybe you canlisten to this on Halloween if
you want to, if you're in aspooky mood. So

Jeff Leake (01:23):
we did an episode about Should Christians
celebrate Halloween last year,and I think we we just sent that
out by email, just to remindeverybody of that, because
that's always a conversationthat comes up during this season
of the year, especially forfamilies. So we're not really
going to talk so much aboutHalloween today, because we're
going to talk about some of thedark, you know, influences, or

Dave Leake (01:46):
fascination with the occult and Satan in our culture
today. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (01:49):
right, that's become a big thing in pop culture
anymore, by the way. We shouldsay Dave and I are father and
son. We both are on pastors onstaff at Allison Park church.
We're glad you've joined us forthis. We know we've had some
rather intense episodes over thepast three months, Christian
nationalism, Marxism. We talkedabout abortion in the last
podcast. So we've had a lot ofconversations around that. And

(02:14):
this, this is an intense topic,but probably not as in
incendiary I guess you'd say toto debate as much as it is, just
both interesting to talk about,to see the trends, and then
there's sort of a warning, Iguess you would concerning. It's
concerning. Yeah,

Dave Leake (02:31):
it's concerning, for sure. So okay, so there's a,
basically, there's, there'sthis, there's this game. You're
probably familiar with it, ifyou are familiar with video
games at night. Generally, it'svery kid friendly, innocent kind
of a game. It has shooting, butit's not bloody. It's not gory.

Jeff Leake (02:47):
So it was silly, all the rage, especially, what two
or three years ago, and

Dave Leake (02:52):
it's still pretty popular.

Jeff Leake (02:53):
I mean, I'm not, and it's, it's, it's an online thing
where you compete with otherpeople. You're basically, you
know, war with people online,right? Yeah, and

Dave Leake (03:04):
you're like, you like, build structures, but it's
like, so it's like a shootinggame, but the lightest hearted
shooting game you couldpossibly, okay, it's pretty,
pretty tame, pretty innocent.
Fortnite is become this sort ofcrossover hub for all kinds of
things, Batman and Star Wars andMarvel superheroes and, you
know, so explain

Jeff Leake (03:24):
that to someone, because I've never played
Fortnite. So typically a video

Dave Leake (03:28):
game. So like, if you think about a video game
like Mario, it's like its ownstory and its own brand, and
Mario just does stuff withMario.

Jeff Leake (03:36):
But that's the one video game I

Dave Leake (03:37):
do. Okay, so you know about Mario? Yeah, Fortnite
started to do these crossoverswhere they are bringing in other
franchises to help the notorietyof notoriety of both. So, like,
so

Jeff Leake (03:49):
your character or avatar or whatever, yeah, can be
Batman. Yeah, exactly,

Dave Leake (03:54):
yeah. And, and they like theme it out. And they've
also had a lot of, they've had alot of pop, like pop artists and
stuff. Like, there was a guy,Travis Scott, who performed a
concert in Fortnite, okay? Andthere's, like, millions. So

Jeff Leake (04:07):
it's a truly interactive video. Yes, it
really is. Yeah. So it's notjust like a stale thing that
you're going through the levels,no, but it actually is online
and out there and morphing andyou're interacting, yes, okay.
And

Dave Leake (04:18):
they're updating all the time. Well, for Halloween
this year they they're doing acrossover with Marvel, and
there's a character from theMarvel universe that's basically
the devil. His name is Mephisto,and he looks like that.

Jeff Leake (04:31):
You're on video, yeah, you're listening. You
can't see this, but if you're onvideo on YouTube, just

Dave Leake (04:35):
imagine a standard devil. And he looks just like
that, with evil smile and side

Jeff Leake (04:40):
hair, mullet, sideburns.

Dave Leake (04:43):
You make him sound worse than he is. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (04:46):
red skin, yellow eyes, so a necklace with a
skull, so

Dave Leake (04:52):
right now, sharp teeth. He's in this game. And
you can, like in Fortnite, youcan, you always drop out of like
a ship and. You land somewhereon this map, you can drop to the
underworld, and if you go youcan actually sell your soul to
Mephisto, okay, to get, like,bonuses and stuff, which is kind
of crazy. It's in this game thatprobably a lot of, like, eight

(05:12):
year olds, 10 year olds kind ofthing are playing, and it's just
very casually. So,

Jeff Leake (05:16):
so when did Fortnite get an underworld? When Mephisto
joined? That's

Dave Leake (05:21):
a great question. I actually don't know. I think
it's kind of recent, becausethey changed their map.
Described it

Jeff Leake (05:27):
as the tamest fight video game out there, with an
underworld that seems like,whoa, like at some point, I
don't think underworld was thebeginning, right? No, no. Well,
usually

Dave Leake (05:36):
it's like green grass and like a desert area,
it's like a broken down tower.
But I think they're probablytheming it out more this year.

Jeff Leake (05:43):
So you go into the underworld and you meet
Mephisto, who's a Marvelcharacter, who's representative
of evil

Dave Leake (05:49):
of the devil. Yeah, okay. And you can literally go,
he's on his throne. And you,like, offer most of your life
you, but it's like, sell yoursoul.

Jeff Leake (05:57):
What is your soul in Fortnite?

Dave Leake (05:59):
It's like your health points,

Jeff Leake (06:01):
okay, it's how you stay alive. Yeah, yeah. So you
give him your health points, andyou, what do you get in
exchange?

Dave Leake (06:08):
You can, you can get, like, a weapon, if you
want, a random weapon, or, Ithink it like, resurrects your
your party, or gives them, likepeople you're playing with,
gives them bonuses. So, I mean,it's supposedly, like innocent
and light hearted, but it's kindof intense, yeah, and this just
brought up a conversation of,like, there is this obsession
and this fascination with Satanright now in our culture, like

(06:32):
it's, like, it's all over theplace. And I think even to
people that aren't Christians,it's kind of creepy, like, it's,
it's intense, there's so there'sa song, I think it's called
paint the town red by doja catwhere, like, she's like, dancing
with like, the Grim Reaper. Andthere's these, like, demons and

(06:52):
skeletons crawling in people'sroom at night while they're
sleeping, and it's all red. Andit's not like, it's not even
like, silly. It's like, intense.
It like gives you like it givesyou like shivers when you when
you see that kind of thing. So

Jeff Leake (07:06):
this is, I guess I'm playing the curious one in this
one. Dave, I don't know what adoji cat is. What

Dave Leake (07:11):
is that? Doji cat is an artist, okay, yeah, girl,
she's a girl.

Jeff Leake (07:16):
She's a girl. Okay?
And what kind of music does dojacat say? Music? Okay, she plays
pop music and explain what shedid. Again,

Dave Leake (07:22):
she has a music video in a song that's probably
like the most creepy, demonicmusic video I've ever seen.
Like, I, it's, I, yeah, youdon't work. I wouldn't suggest
watching it, but it's, it's veryit's very disturbing.

Jeff Leake (07:35):
Yeah, it is. It's in it's in vogue. Like, I just know
this from news reports, but Iremember at the Grammys a guy
named Sam Smith, like, about ayear ago, or something,
performed as the devil. Wasthat, was that like his? Yeah,
we actually have a quick videoclip if you want to throw that
up. Yeah, let's, let's. We'regoing to add a new feature to
the podcast. We got somepictures on this one, and we're
going to show a little quickvideo clip, so if you're not on

(07:59):
video, you'll be able to hearit, but

Dave Leake (08:01):
you can watch on YouTube if you'd like to. Yeah,
you can. And

Jeff Leake (08:05):
people would find that where

Unknown (08:08):
we'll link the last time Grammys they as Smith, now
prefers to be called identifiedas Satan. Katy Perry
performs Dark Horse at theGrammys blood sneakers lil NAS
X's collaboration with ourcollective mischief. The 666
pair of sneakers feature goldpentagrams inverted crosses, as

(08:29):
well as human blood inside thesoul.

Jeff Leake (08:33):
Okay, yeah,

Dave Leake (08:35):
but this, this is just the kind of stuff. It's
everywhere, like it's it's allover even, like, I know Fortnite
is probably the most innocent,but like, even Marvel, you know,
Captain America and Iron Man hasdeveloped a fascination with the
occult.

Jeff Leake (08:49):
How? So, okay, so

Dave Leake (08:50):
there's a number of superheroes, like, there's,
there's one, okay, the namesounds bad. When she first came
on, she didn't, she wasn'treally witchy, but her name was
the Scarlet Witch. She wassomeone that could use, like,
trying to think what they call,like telekinetic powers and
Avengers two. Well, she slowlybecame more and more like, Oh,
she's using spells andwitchcraft. And they released

(09:15):
Doctor Strange to a year or twoago that was a really, really
heavily occultic movie. And thenone of the side characters from
the Scarlet Witch, one divisionher show was this witch named
Agatha. And she has a show nowall her own. Agatha all along.
Okay, give us a picture of ayeah, probably seen this. And
know

Jeff Leake (09:34):
this girl from other things that she's been in,
right? And so she's neverwitchy. And so

Dave Leake (09:38):
one of the main characters, so she's a main
character, she's a witch. One ofthe main characters in the show,
Agatha, is Marvel, yes, one of,one of the main characters in
this show is the son of ScarletWitch who died, and the son's
super Your name is wicked,wicked, yeah. Like, like, as in,
witches, modern witches. Sothere's, there's just, I mean, I

(09:59):
think. There's always been thisstuff floating out there and
Marvel, but it's sort of been onthe fringes, but like, there's
nothing celebrated. Oh yeah,it's, and it's, I mean, yeah,
that in addition so to, just tokind of give a picture of the
show, the producers are talkingabout how this show is a is also

(10:20):
going to have. They call it agay explosion, like a
celebration of the characterWiccan is, like, I think is a
gay character, and one of thefirst gay characters in Marvel.
And they're, they're introducinga lot of gender fluidity and
sexuality into shows like this.
It's on Disney, plus it's just,it's crazy, like the level of
fascination and just how chilleverybody is with the occult and

(10:40):
Satanism. So

Jeff Leake (10:44):
how does that the occult and the LGBT themes? How
do they merge? What that startslike? Okay, I'm a complete,
completely unaware of all ofwhat you just said. Like I'm
hearing this all for the firsttime because I'm not aware of, I
don't watch the Marvel stuff,and I'm not really into pop
music. So how does that? How dothose two things come together?

Dave Leake (11:07):
I don't think that they go together like they're
thematically combined. It'sjust, it's, it happens to be the
agenda of the show. That's whatthe creators are going for.
Okay? And it's in this all aboutwhich is show, I'm just saying,
like, I don't think that they'reinherently connected, but it's,

(11:27):
it's just, it soundsevangelistic, yeah, that's how
it feels. Okay, so,

Jeff Leake (11:32):
so a gay explosion, like, you could see gay
representation on a show, butthey're trying to recruit
people,

Dave Leake (11:39):
they're they're trying to celebrate and have,
like, oh, like, they're socasual. There's a lot of,
there's gay characters that aregetting, like, kissing scenes on
screen. Okay? It's just, it'sjust a pro.

Jeff Leake (11:50):
I mean, way of,

Dave Leake (11:51):
it's sort of a kids sort of, it's not a kid show,
but it's sort of like a teenagershow on Disney plus. And it's a,
it's a, let's put this front andcenter. Does that make sense?

Jeff Leake (12:00):
So what they all seem to have in common is a
rebellion against anythinghaving to do with Christianity.
Absolutely okay. So it is, it isa Agatha would be a an affront
to Christian values. Yeah.

Dave Leake (12:14):
And I want to, I want to say, I think so that
could sound really okay in someways that could sound really
judgmental to somebody who'swatched that show, but I want
to, here's, here's what I wantto try to, please

Jeff Leake (12:25):
forgive me, I'm I'm a I'm learning. I'm just asking
questions, like the way youdescribed it brought those
questions up in my mind. So I'mjust being curious. So,

Dave Leake (12:33):
so let me, let me, let me take you through. Okay,
somebody could have gotten intoMarvel and like, the first Iron
Man, and they watch Iron Man andCaptain America. And it was,
like, fairly clean. Well, yeah,

Jeff Leake (12:43):
I watched. I watched those movies, not because I like
superhero movies, because Ireally don't, but I watched them
because all of you guys watchedthem. Yeah. So when I was doing
my workouts, like I watchedthrough what, how many of their
22 movies, or was was at thetime? Yeah, yeah. So there's a
lot more now. They were all justsimple, yeah, I guess there's
some spiritualism in Thor. Ididn't make it through Dr
Strange. I like, watched thefirst 10 minutes, and I was

(13:06):
like, this is freaky weird. So Igot out of that one.

Dave Leake (13:10):
Yeah, right around the introduction of Dr Strange,
it started to get into morespiritual themes. So maybe for
the last five or

Jeff Leake (13:17):
so, is this Stan Lee, or is this someone who took
over for Stan Lee, Stanley

Dave Leake (13:20):
created Marvel. A lot of other writers have
written other things within hisuniverse. I don't know which
specific comic Stan wrote, so hemight have written some of
these. Yeah, he at least boughtoff on a lot of this comic
material, because this is alsofrom, like, the 80s and 90s. Oh,
the occultic part. Oh, yeah.
This has been around for alittle while, okay, but now it's
being produced as TV shows andmovies. But I'm just saying
somebody could have definitelyjust become a fan of Marvel, and

(13:42):
they're sort of like, this issort of weird that I'm watching
this. But I think part of thereason why we're bringing this
up, it's not like you're just,you could get into this kind of
thing Fortnite, like you couldbe selling your soul to Mephisto
or like Agatha all on just bydoing something that was kind of
normal. And then it said, all ofa sudden, there's something
weird that's in here that you'resort of not sure to process. And
I think we wanted to have aconversation about the obsession

(14:04):
with Satan and the occult that'sinfiltrating what I would say
are generally normal and safethings that all of a sudden are
becoming like, Should we beconcerned about this? Yeah, and
what is this saying about ourworld? So,

Jeff Leake (14:17):
you know, I think for someone who's my age and has
grown up with Leave It toBeaver, you know what I mean.
So, like, the most spooky thingand my growing up years was the
show Bewitched, which was like asitcom where the witch was, you
know, twitching her nose to makethings happen, which I wasn't

(14:38):
allowed to watch either for myparents, so we went from a what
you would call a highlyChristian friendly entertainment
system in our country, wheremost things that were produced
had a rating on them that youcould somewhat trust, to some
degree, to know what you couldexpose your kids to. And now we
would have to say before we. Itinto the satanic aspects of

(15:01):
this. There is no safe place inpopular culture, no right? So if
you're a follower of Jesus andyou're looking to to get into a
series as innocent as Marvel,you can't expect that they will
hold to values that that willnot offend or recruit or

(15:22):
evangelize you or your family.
So if your eyes are not open andyour ears not tuned in, you're
going to run into things thatyou you should be disturbed by.
And, yeah, the first thing is, Ithink that's, that's the sad
thing. It's like the death of asafe place, like for for
followers of Jesus, there is nosafe place in popular culture,

Dave Leake (15:41):
especially in media, yeah,

Jeff Leake (15:43):
so video games, YouTube clips, TV, movies,
music. You're not going to finda safe place there. You're going
to find the potential forsomething harmful.

Dave Leake (15:54):
So even if it seems really safe, yeah, it's it's
just something. Got to keep youreyes open.

Jeff Leake (15:58):
And it's so hard, because once you get attached to
a particular series like Marvelyou get, you get emotionally
attached, and you're like, Idon't want to stop watching
this, because I want to find outwhat happens. And before you
know it, you may be compromisingor even opening the door for
some kind of attack on yourfamily spiritually that could be
direct, because occult. Sothere's things that are

(16:20):
compromising that we would saythat theme is contrary to
biblical ideas, right? And thenthere's other things that are
potentially a direct open doorfor the invitation for demonic
involvement in your life, whichthen can cause severe
consequences. And so you'reyou're selling your soul to
anything that's just not a goodthing. That's the time you shut

(16:43):
Fortnite off, right? You say,Yeah, this is now at left, what
is a safe place for my eightyear old kid, let alone someone
who's older than that, right?
And I know this for some youmight feel like we're being very
religious or narrow minded.
We're just trying to be aware,you know, because this is, this
is, if you believe in in thespiritual realm, and you believe

(17:05):
that there are things such asangels and demons, none of this
is without impact, yeah,

Dave Leake (17:13):
and I think it, it's all serving to desensitize all
of us to the occult, towitchcraft, to the reality of
angels and demons, I thinkalready, just even within,
within the Christian, you know,Christian community, within
believers like we tend tounderestimate how spiritual the

(17:34):
world actually is. We sort ofare like, yeah, there's another
dimension somewhere wherethere's angels and demons and
the devil has a plan for us, andit's bad, and the devil sends a
tax. But who knows what thateven means. And even like with
Orthodox, Biblically soundChristians, I think our
assumption is most evil in theworld is probably human evil,
and most sin is probably human,like it all, all sin, I guess is

(17:55):
human sin, you know? Well, yeah,sure, it is so like but I think
we attribute and credit thingsmostly to people, and then who
knows what the devil is reallydoing. He's doing something out
there, but who knows what it is.
But I think we underestimateradically the effects of the
demonic on our world, andespecially things that are
harmlessly occultic. You knowwhat I mean?

Jeff Leake (18:17):
Well, okay, so I'm gonna now say something will
seem conspiracy like aconspiracy theory. Maybe it is.
I don't know. It's myimpression. I'll just say like
this. This is my impression as aChrist follower in 2024 in the
United States of America, whenit comes to pop culture, there
does seem to be an intensehatred for Christianity on the

(18:38):
part of a lot of people, andsome people, I think, who are in
the entertainment industry gointo the satanistic era simply
because it's, it's an affront toa group of people and their
belief system that they despise.
And sometimes it's becauseyou're I think the pop culture
industry is always looking topush the envelope a little
further, because if you dosomething novel that seems like

(18:58):
go a little further than anyoneelse has gone before. This is
kind of what I see Sam Smith isdoing in the Emmy the Emmy
awards show. He went furtherthan anyone had ever done with
anything satanic, and he causeda stir. And that's how you sell
records. So I get that that'spart of it, but there, I think
you get a little extra bonuspoints if you do something
that's a direct insult toChristianity, because at the

(19:21):
Olympics, like, what happened atthe Olympics? Right? So it's
like, Score one for theedginess, yeah. And for those
who are now progressed past theancient value system of Judeo,
Christian thinking and and soit, and oftentimes it ends up

(19:41):
being snuck in in a way thatbefore you know what's happened
to you, you've been punched inthe face by something, but, but
maybe with whether these popculture artists are
intentionally going into satanicworship or just toying around
with it, I'm sure it has tohave. Have some very dangerous
implications for them. Well,here's,

Dave Leake (20:03):
here's the thing, here's the thing that, like,
will sound like it could beconspiracy, but it's like, well,
this, this just has to bereality. Like, if we just think
about it, if we believe inangels and demons, if we believe
in in a real devil, the devil isdoing work in the world. So,
like, I mean, we read all aboutdemon possessed people,

(20:24):
demonized people in thescriptures, and we, we've just
had a conversation, another onerecently, about demonization in
our world today, people that areopenly, like, dressing like
Satan have have, I mean, like, Ifeel bad for them. Your opinion.

Jeff Leake (20:39):
Do you think they think that Satan is real, or
think that they're just playacting.

Dave Leake (20:43):
I think that they're, if I'm being totally
serious, I think that there isgenuinely a bunch of occultic
stuff happening at the toplevels of entertainment
industry. I think there'sactually

Jeff Leake (20:54):
meaning that these are converts to Satanism, not
necessarily to Satanism as a, asa, as a religion, yes, but

Dave Leake (21:01):
I think that there is rituals being done. I think
that there are COVID that, like,what would

Jeff Leake (21:07):
what I would say, What would possess you to do
that? But why? Like, what

Unknown (21:14):
would be, what

Jeff Leake (21:15):
would be the motive for that? Like, why would you do
that? Like, because you'researching for, for something to
fill the void in your life,because you want to be edgy and
cool, because you really believethat there's some spiritual
power out there that you'retapping into, like, what, what,
what would, why would you dothis? I don't understand,

Dave Leake (21:33):
okay, and all seriousness, this is, this is
now where I'm like, I know thatthis is going to make some
people like conspiracy, but I dothink the devil is able to
promote certain people like he'sable to, okay, so you are in
fame, and I think sometimes it'sworking.

Jeff Leake (21:48):
Yeah, okay, so you just told me about a podcast you
listened to yesterday you wantedto. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was
episode

Dave Leake (21:54):
I happened to just I was listening to Steelers
podcast, and the next one thatpopped up, it was like an
unrecommended,

Jeff Leake (22:00):
it was like a Steelers and then Satan is
crazy. But it's like, it's justlike it has like that would come
after the Patriots or theRavens.

Dave Leake (22:07):
Yeah. So there's a guy who has a, he's a he's a
prophetic voice. He has a thingcalled the Sean bowl show, bolts
bowls, souls bowls, Sean Bowlesshow, okay, yeah. He just
released this episode about,it's about the topic we're
talking about now, aboutSatanism in pop culture, and I
don't know what her name is, wecould probably put a link in,
but there's this clip that hehad of this artist who got a

(22:30):
deal with Columbia Records, andshe had this major producer that
wanted to personally produce asong for her. And this clip she
she details out about like shewasn't really living for God,
and she was like, smoking potand just kind of partying, but
was like, loosely, had beenChristian. And at some point
after they're like, you know,between sessions, I guess this,

(22:51):
this producer pulls her aside,says, you know, if you sold your
soul to the devil, you'd getfamous tomorrow. And she was
just like,

Jeff Leake (22:58):
and he wasn't just,

Dave Leake (22:59):
he wasn't joking.
Now, if you watch the wholeclip, he she's like, she's like,
I just started weeping, and Ifelt like a presence came into
the room. And I like, it wasembarrassing, but I probably
spent a couple of minutes justlike, I'm so sorry. God. And she
said he just, he just stood withhis head in his hands there,
this guy not, not talking toher. And he said he never spoke
to her ever again after that.
And she was, she was saying,this is a common thing in the in

(23:22):
the pop culture industry, andwhether it's movies or it's
music, is that there is apressure with certain people to
make spiritual covenants thatwill get you fame. And like,
this is where, like, I've heardthis before. I'm like, I don't
know. And there's, like, allthese people that are stars.
This is what's happened to me,and is a conspiracy theory or

(23:43):
not, but I'm saying I thinkthere has to be some if there is
a real devil and he's actuallyworking with people, and we're
seeing the rise of stuff likeSam Smith twerking as Satan in
this cage, or all this other popculture stuff that's happening
now. It's like, well, it'spretty obvious that he's doing
some things with some people.
And I do think probably somepeople have been elevated

(24:04):
through demonic means. You knowwhat I'm saying? Yeah. And I
think that there is a as apervasive spreading of a cult
and Satanism and and reallydemonic stuff into the lowest
forms of media, like, accessibleby everybody. The most popular
things, the most kid friendly.

(24:25):
It's, it's like, desensitizingpeople. There's trends that are
on YouTube and Tiktok and reelsand all this stuff about, like,
oh, you can do, here's we can dothe Ouija board. Or here's how
you can summon this thing. Youwrite this with the pencil. Or,
oh, yeah, yeah, I don't knowabout anything like, within the
last year, but yeah, there'sbeen creepy, creepy trying. I do

Jeff Leake (24:42):
know that it is one of the most searched things is
how to, how to put a curse onsomebody, or how to, yeah, what
is black magic? Or, you know,this

Dave Leake (24:51):
stuff is real. Yeah, it's that. I mean, there, there,
there is. It's in the Bibleabout like there are actual
witches and people that havepower. Demons. Okay,

Jeff Leake (25:00):
so let's talk about what is our response to this.
And again, this is interestingbecause we're flipping the
scales. I'm interviewing you alittle bit more than the other
way around, which is often theway our podcast works. So I
could see how there's somethere's some responses on a
spectrum of things. One farside, you could become consumed
as a conspiracy theorist, andthis could become a part of the

(25:22):
impetus for the culture war,where you see the devil in
everything, and you assume thatthere's some great Illuminati
out there that is all worshipingSatan, and they're all
politicians and pop pop artistsare all joined together in a
league to destroy the UnitedStates of America. And you know,
you know, insult the name ofJesus and recruit as many people

(25:42):
into satanic lifestyles aspossible. Okay, that's, that's
one end, and the other end of itis, oh, it's just Fortnite.
What's the big deal? Let's justkeep playing. You

Dave Leake (25:52):
guys are looking into this too much. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (25:53):
Okay, so where do we land in this spectrum of things?
I don't think we're on theconspiracy theory side, although
I will admit that I thinkthere's probably more
intentional alignment with thedevil on all levels of power, in
pop culture and potentially evenbusiness and politics, yes, than

(26:14):
what we what we recognize. ButI'm not going to go on a
conspiracy theory search. I'mnot sure how much good it does
to recover things. I agree. Ithink that fighting spiritual
warfare comes in a differentformat,

Dave Leake (26:27):
yeah. But even like the P Diddy like scandal and
circles that he was in there,okay,

Jeff Leake (26:32):
explain that a little bit. I

Dave Leake (26:33):
he just got, he just got so. P Diddy

Jeff Leake (26:35):
is a rapper, correct, yeah, uh huh. And he
was pretty prominent, oh

Dave Leake (26:39):
my goodness. He was a huge, huge major artist, one
of the top a list artists in theworld, really, and just got,
like, I mean, he's probably,like, all this human trafficking
with children and profit. It'slike, people are saying it's
Epstein, but a lot worse. Andthere's all these people that
covered it up. And apparentlythere were, like, actual occult

(27:02):
rituals that he was doing hiswork, cheese and

Jeff Leake (27:04):
occult rituals all mixed together with very famous
people, yes, participatingtogether. And there's

Dave Leake (27:10):
this big list of people, and there hasn't been
get it released yet, butapparently this is all legit.
That's all legitimate. I

Jeff Leake (27:17):
mean, I know I watched the Epstein thing, and
there's, like, a whole deal onNetflix that documents it all,
but that list hasn't beenreleased either some of the
people that were on the plane orwhatever with him, but they

Dave Leake (27:27):
were going to his island. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (27:29):
yeah. It's true.
It's not like just celebritiesand presidents of the United
States, like there's

Dave Leake (27:35):
clearly some kind of conspiracy theory that's
definitely true. They won'trelease names, they won't
release or they're trying toprevent things from being
released. So I'm not saying thatthere's a satanic cult at the
top of everything. Of these fivepeople, although that would be a
good book, yeah, yeah, right.
And they're all Democrats, andthey're all talking about, like,
I don't know, I'm not, I'm notgoing to say, like, those kind

(28:00):
of things, but there is clearlymajor demonic influence in these
high levels of power. And it'sbecoming more and more obvious.
I mean, we listed a few thingsthat are happening the music
scene, but there's even more.
Like, the weekend is another bigone, and you just had these
people in red cloaks come out,and Satan's flashing on the
screen. And I don't know whatthe weekend is that weekend's

(28:21):
another artist, yeah? Weekendis, I know there was something
about Katy Perry on there, yeah,yeah, the Dark Horse thing. And
what is that? The Dark Horse isjust a song. It's a song, but
she performed, and it's verydemonic in terms of the there's,
there's so many, I mean, there'sso many examples of how upfront,
what was that other one?
Balenciaga, did you see thatwhole thing last year that came
out? They had these, or maybe itwas even this year, they had

(28:41):
these, these kids that were justin these gothic clothes, and
they had these teddy bears thatwere wearing, like these very
like they're wearing, like,chains and leather. It was like
dominatrix, like twisted themewith children. They got all this
hate for it. We were like, oh, amoral panic. Stop exaggerating.
But there's this, like clear,demented, twisted spirit that

(29:02):
has very much entered media andfashion and pop culture that's
crazy to me. Okay, so

Jeff Leake (29:12):
we're out there.
We're not on the conspiracytheory side, although we
recognize that there would beenough evidence to create a
legitimate I

Dave Leake (29:20):
probably lean, I'm not in a specific conspiracy
theory camp, but I lean towardssomething crazy has happened,

Jeff Leake (29:25):
but researching it on its own right, okay, yes, and
complaining about it, rantingabout it, doesn't really help
anything. Agreed. We want toraise awareness. I think that's
what part of this podcast isabout. Yes, okay. And then on
the other side you have this,I'm compromising by allowing it
in a little bit. I like thatsong. I enjoy playing Fortnite.
I'm gonna go ahead and watchthat Agatha TV show. I'll fast

(29:48):
forward through the parts that Idon't like. Okay. What's the
danger in that

Dave Leake (29:53):
whole thing? Which is, fast forward through that
show. But okay, do

Jeff Leake (29:58):
you know what I mean? Like, yeah, sure. It
could. Happen to you with that?
Oh, it's

Dave Leake (30:01):
all make believe anyway. Oh, what's

Jeff Leake (30:03):
the danger if, if a person's too casual with pop
culture, what? What's

Dave Leake (30:08):
the Can I, can I hit on a nerve, on one that people
are going to be like, don'ttouch this. Go ahead. Because I,
but I feel like I'm, like, goingback to like, 90s now, but
another big one that's justaccepted as fine as Harry
Potter, okay? And like, okay,just being real. I've watched
through all the movies a numberof times, and I've read the

(30:30):
books, and I like them all, butlike, the more I've, like, been
studying this, I'm like, maybe Ishouldn't be doing this. Okay.
Like, I'm just being honest,open. It's my personal journey
of where I am. I just thinkeverything that's I've

Jeff Leake (30:41):
never watched any of the movies or read any of the
books, but I have, I started inthe first book because I wanted
to see what it's about. I justnever, never interested me.
Okay, but so that felt like moremake believe, yeah, yeah. So
less, less, even Fortnite, likeseems scarier than Harry Potter,
yeah. But if you, if youactually

Dave Leake (31:02):
know Harry Potter, do you there's some stuff that's
like, Okay, well, I'll just fastforward this, when they bring
Voldemort back to life, it's areally

Jeff Leake (31:10):
spoiler alert if you haven't read the book, right?

Dave Leake (31:13):
Nobody, no, this is so old, nobody Harry Potter, not
even like trending, right? Iguess maybe it is in October.
But yeah, there's, there's, Imean, there's clearly, like,
maybe, like, oh, well, they'rejust saying this kind of spell,
and it's like, Okay, so

Jeff Leake (31:24):
what's the danger?
Like, why would you say that?
Like, okay, I believe there's adanger. I'm just asking you
this. Why

Dave Leake (31:29):
do I think there's a danger? I think what is the day?
Okay, here's the danger. Here'sthe danger. If we pretend like
nothing that's being representedwith a cult or witchcraft or
Satanism has any effect orreality on us. We're totally
ignoring the spiritual realmthat we currently live in. We're

(31:50):
acting like we live in a naturalrealm. Everything is fantasy and
stories. If it's not real, can'ttouch me or hurt me, but you
actually open

Jeff Leake (31:56):
doors physical, invisible, exactly, but it's
still real, yeah, but,

Dave Leake (32:00):
but we, we actually allow influence for whatever
we're putting in our life. IfHarry Potter or Agatha all
along, or, you know, any ofthese other things we watch the
Sam Smith concert, doesn'tnecessarily bother guy was the

Jeff Leake (32:15):
red guy we just showed. Is it this little little
nos, right? No, no, no, no, no,the red guy on Fortnite. Oh,
Mephisto,

Dave Leake (32:21):
yeah, right, right.
So it's like, those things mightnot bother us, but that doesn't
mean that they shouldn't botherus. And I think what we're doing
is, if we get casual, it's like,I mean, it's the whole, it's
literally the whole Trojan horseexample, there's a gift. It's
not a big deal. If it's from theenemy, it's casual. You let it
in. Okay,

Jeff Leake (32:39):
I probably told the story before, but this is just
an example, so this has to dowith psychics. Sure, go ahead.
This okay. The years ago, therewas the girl that came to
church, lady that came tochurch, and her life was in a
bad state. She was divorced, shewas addicted, she was filled
with trauma. When she started totell me her story. She was

(33:01):
married, she had four children.
She was at a party. They had apsychic reader in the back room.
They paid for just like you payfor a massages. They paid for
everybody to have their futuresread. So she went back there she
had her psychic reading, and thepsychic told her your first love
will be your last and so sheleft there, and she was like,

(33:23):
oh, man, that's really wild.
Like, I'm not really happy withmy marriage right now, and my
husband is not my first love.
Maybe one day I'll divorce myhusband and I'll go back to my
first love and and we'll spendthe rest of our days together.
Okay? The next week, the guythat she had as her first love
happened to show up at thebaseball game where kids were

(33:44):
playing, and she thought, well,there he is. You know,
providentially, he's just showedup. So they started a
conversation. They began anaffair. They both had the same
addictive pattern alcohol. Theystarted drinking together. She
ended up divorced, she ended uptrapped in this alcoholic
situation again. This is whereall the trauma began. Is when

(34:05):
she accepted that word from apsychic, yeah, that unraveled
her entire life, and she waspraying for this guy, her first
love to get saved, because shewanted to spend the rest of her
days with her thinking that thatwas what her future still was.
And I was like, No, that's thedevil's plan for your life.
That's not God's plan for yourlife. So we had unwind that and

(34:27):
help her now to move backtowards what God's purpose was
for her. It just that one littlejust that one little thing
caused her whole world to fallapart. And that's, that's when
you come into agreement with,let's say, a directional
decision that comes from thedevil. But when you open your
like, if you're going to sellyour soul or make a covenant,

(34:48):
you give the devil permission tomake you ill, to affect your
emotions, to begin to operate inyour mind. Mind To trigger
trauma from your past, tooppress you, to come after your
kids, to come after yourgrandkids, panic attacks, to
destroy your finances, to bringyou away from God, right? I

(35:10):
mean, he wants to in every wayhe can damage you, because you
are made in the image of God.
God loves you, and the mostprecious thing to God is
humanity. And if he can, just ifhe can destroy you, he affects
the person he really hates isnot you. He really hates God. He
hates what what your destructiondoes to God's heart. That's what

(35:32):
he enjoys. The

Dave Leake (35:33):
other thing about selling your soul could be that
you get a lot of benefits andpromotions and good things to
lead others away from Jesus,yeah, and that Sean Bowles show
he was talking about, I neverthought about that way. He said
he was saying that severalorganizations that were like a
cultic in nature approached himthroughout his life and said,
like, Hey, if you, if you, youcan keep using your Christian
language. But if you sign up forthis, if you like, join our

(35:57):
organization, we'll give you somuch sponsorship, you'll get
money, you'll get so much fame.
You can keep saying what you'resaying, but we just want you to
be under our authority. And likeit was, like, it's clearly an
occult thing, so it's like hecan keep up. Obviously, he
rejected those.

Jeff Leake (36:11):
I think there's it doesn't stay in the banks of the
river. Once it starts to flow,it affects, begins to affect
everything it does not like youcontain this lion, yes, and
manage it. It will eventuallyswallow

Dave Leake (36:24):
you. Okay? Most people aren't trying to sell
their souls, though. What Ithink the issue is, especially
with believers, is they'reallowing influences into their
life that are harmful anddestructive. Okay, examples,
horror movies, stupid thing tobring in. There they are. That's
inviting fear for the sake ofthrills. Yeah, into your life,
you don't want that. You don'twant that around your kids. You

(36:44):
don't want landed

Jeff Leake (36:45):
in your memory bank, and you allow the devil to use
that as inspiration for futurefears. Okay,

Dave Leake (36:50):
just even, man, there's, there's so much like
honestly, one of the mostdisturbing things is, if you try
to find TV shows right now,almost everything is rated, Ma,
you know, mature audiences, andit usually has like pornography,
basically like full nudity,often pornographic scenes,

Jeff Leake (37:08):
sexuality and the in the influence of Satanism have
risen equally within pop

Dave Leake (37:15):
culture. And the third one is hyper violence.

Jeff Leake (37:17):
Okay? Hyper violence explain that

Dave Leake (37:19):
hyper violence is the goriest, most intense,
graphic looking thing that youcan do on a screen. And October
is the time for hyper violence,more than anything else. I mean,
like, there's so many, there'sall these which can

Jeff Leake (37:32):
lead to legit hyper violence. Well, even if it
doesn't lead to that,

Dave Leake (37:37):
you're, you're feeding, you're feeding hyper
violence as entertainment, whichis displeasing to God.

Jeff Leake (37:42):
It's you're good for your soul. It's

Dave Leake (37:45):
corrosive. People are made in the image of God,
like we should not be about theDIS so some there is something
about like watching somebodydefend other people, you know
what I mean? And they're andthey're they're fighting. That

Jeff Leake (37:57):
used to be the story lines you'd go to the movies
for. Yeah, now, now it's a goodguy shows up and he fights
against evil, and he wins theday, and he saves people from
being harmed.

Dave Leake (38:07):
And there are some of those. What?

Jeff Leake (38:10):
When Has there ever been a movie made in the last
five years that genuinelycelebrates nobility? No,

Dave Leake (38:15):
probably not Top Gun. Well, yeah, yeah. A lot of
them, a lot of them are antihero comes in, he's also bad,
she's also bad, but they'retaking out a worse bad guy. And
so you celebrate them for beinga different kind of good.
They're an empowered, nonconformist, conformist kind of a
good but like so hyper violence,crazy, pornographic sexuality,

(38:39):
crazy, like almost every show iscrazy language. There's so much
occult like it. I've beenthinking like, Man, I so wonder,
what do we do? So what do we do?
Here's my question. I wonder if,I wonder if most people are
using filters, or if we're sortof like, it's all. It all has
something, and I'll just skipit. I just won't worry about it.
It's not affecting me that much,because I think if we become

(39:00):
passive and are not extremelychoosy about what we're gonna
watch at all, well, like, oh,it's not that big of a deal. If
things aren't that big of adeal, I think we're giving a
wide open front gate to so muchevil to come into our if you

Jeff Leake (39:16):
swim in a sea of filth, you won't come out clean.
No, right like on the otherside, you're not going to end up
feeling like praying or makingthe right choices or music,

Dave Leake (39:28):
movies, TV, video games, books, anything you want
to name, fashion, even podcasts,podcasts, all of this is, is a
wide open door to inviteinfluence. Okay, so

Jeff Leake (39:39):
now we're sounding hyper religious and like, oh my
goodness, you're so strict youcan't have any fun anymore.
Can't even watch Marvel. Youknow, you guys are just going
off the deep end here. I'm notdisagreeing with you, Dave. I'm
just saying that might be apotential reaction to it,

Dave Leake (39:57):
but my reaction to that is not that we. To do
nothing. But it's that if youdon't have crazy filters to ask
questions and say, not doingthis, not doing this, and we
just allow it because it'sentertaining, or because people
are talking about it, or becauseit seems like it's a great I
don't watch it for that. I watchit for the storyline. Yeah,
like, Game of Thrones. Like, oh,it has pornographic incest

(40:17):
scenes, but i The story is sogood. Like,

Jeff Leake (40:20):
I mean, no rape, yes, in the in the in the
program, my goodness. Okay, solet's get to application because
I think we we've painted theproper picture here. So a couple
of application points. First, Iwould say, if you're a parent,
you have got to be aware of whatyour kids are taking in Nothing
is safe. Just listen to it,unless it comes out of redeem TV

(40:42):
or some, some programming thatprobably has has been created by
Christians, for Christianswhich, which often is sometimes
not that entertaining, becausemaybe it's still an emerging
market that's developing anyway,nothing safe. You have to be
aware, even preschool shows.
Yeah, it's crazy. How evenpreschool? So, so, so I'll go,

(41:05):
I'll go a little off of theSatanism. But there is a certain
part of our society that wantsto sexualize children, yeah, and
they want to do it throughentertainments, and they want to
do it through things like Agathaand so whether you know, we
believe in Christian sexuality.
The issue right here, though,isn't about so much Christian

(41:25):
sexuality. It's more just aboutcertain age groups should not be
exposed to sexuality, period ofany kind, yeah, heterosexual,
homosexual, transgender,whatever. There should be an age
of innocence where kids areprotected from some of that
stuff, but there's a push on inour society to sexualize kids.
You got to be aware of what yourkids are taking in in any shape

(41:48):
or form, if you're a parentthat's trying to raise your your
son or daughter in anenvironment of some degree of
safety. So that's the firstthing. Second thing is you got
to take everything satanicincredibly seriously and all
just as your pastors, we justwarn you, do not open the door

(42:09):
to the devil. And it's betternot to be entertained by
something, find something else,to watch, listen to whatever,
than to open the door forsomething that even potentially
could harm you. We love you somuch. We don't want to see the
devil affecting your lifenegatively. Actually, we're
getting ready to do spiritualbreakthrough. And if you feel
like maybe you have beenimmersed too much in this kind

(42:30):
of garbage, you need to come tobreakthrough weekend. We'll
break this off your life. We'llwe'll use the authority of Jesus
name to to break off whatevercurses, whatever compromises,
whatever agreements with theenemy, and bring you into a
state again, where you're wholeand free, which is what we want
for you. So that's, that's asecond thing. I think that I

(42:52):
think the challenge is how toremain present in the society.
Because I grew up in an erawhere everything was sin, things
that were really not harmful atall, were sent like, right? You
know, crazy things, like, youcould, you could play Uno, but
you can play with face cards. Idon't even know why, but, like,
there were certain rules like,look like gambling. You couldn't

(43:12):
listen to secular music unlessyou're roller skating. And then
that was okay for a little bit.
Like, there was just, it wasjust weird, random rules about
things and and I think mygeneration grew up under some of
that kind of restrictiveness andsaid, This is silly. And so we,
we, we sort of let go of anykind of barriers against being
too overly religious or strict.

(43:37):
I shouldn't say any, but maybe aweek became way less legalistic.
It's a better way of saying it,but which is probably good. We
probably need a little morestandards, standards now, yeah,
well, every like, you need tohave almost worked out in your
mind, this is what we won't do.
Yeah, like, I'm a young adult,this is what I won't do. I'm a
I'm a dad or a mom. This is whatwe won't do in my in my life,

(43:58):
from my entertainments, what Ilisten to, what I don't listen
to, what I watch, what I don'twatch, what I consume. These are
my standards, and I'm going tohold to this, and maybe even to
tell other people, like, keep meaccountable for this, because I
don't want this in my life. Iwant to live above the fray of
anything that is going to dragmy soul down. You know, there
is, there is something, if youwatch hyper violence, is that

(44:20):
what you called it? Yeah, oryou're, you're, you're
exchanging your soul to get someammunition on Fortnite, or
you're dabbling in whateverprogramming. The other thing
that has it, even if it doesn'taffect you like a direct slap
from the devil, it just makesyou spiritually dull? Yes, at

(44:40):
the very least, you'll justbecome spiritually lethargic.
Yeah,

Dave Leake (44:46):
well, because, because what you're doing is
you're treating that stuff as ifthe just as a cartoon. Like,
okay, if we make our consciencethe ultimate standard, and we're
like, Does it bother mepersonally? Yes or no, then
that. That's a that's one of thefilters, yes, but wait, but
yeah, but I okay. You can almostreinterpret sin to be like, Does

(45:07):
it bother me? You know what? Imean? No, it doesn't bother me.
Well, that doesn't make me notsin. So just because you're not
bothered by something doesn'tmean it's not horribly
unconscious. Could be broken.
Your contents could be broken. Imean, I'm admitting this. For
me, my conscience has beenbroken at times. Yeah, when I
look back at the last decade ofmedia, I've gotten better,
better at my filters, but I'vewatched some stupid things. I

(45:28):
was like, oh, like, I wouldnever, why did? Why did I get
into this? That was a popculture thing. People watching
it around. It was in my house.
You want to

Jeff Leake (45:36):
be melody leak. So melody leak has a hypersensitive
conscious because she is honed,she is very aware. Yeah. I mean,
I'd rather be that than than tobe have a broken conscience.
Yeah? Where you have violatedyour conscience so often that
you don't even know anymorewhere it is, yeah, so back, it

(45:58):
would take something like ifyou're watching hyper violence,
and your conscious is notbothering you right now. Bro,
you got you gotta you got somework to do. Your conscious is
broken.

Dave Leake (46:08):
Hyper, by the way.
Just to define it, hyperviolence is intense gore. It's
it's craziest memberment, allthis blood. It's often
glorifying like violence. It'snot just like violence, it's
like, it's the results ofviolence that you know, their
stomach turning and they'rethey're trying to escalate it
more and more. That's actuallygold filter. Let's build the
filters. Wait before we're gonnasay the harm first. Okay, so the

(46:29):
harm is, I think, I think itdesensitized us, even if it's
not a slap from the devil, Ialso think it's just like it
makes us believe lies, which isthat this isn't that big of a
deal, and that this stuff isn'teven really real, and it makes
us unaware, like, like the Paulwrites, you know, be aware of
the schemes of the devil. Bevery aware of his schemes. Like,

(46:50):
if we are acting like all thisstuff is not a big deal, then we
are totally tuned out. Yeah, tothe workings of the demonic in
our house doing the

Jeff Leake (47:02):
opera Ephesians six, which says, Put on the arm of
God, yes, and stand your groundand be aware and be, you know,
constantly be armed up, because,you know, the devil has has a
scheme against your life. Thisis the opposite. This is like,

Dave Leake (47:13):
let's all chill out.
Let's take the armor off.

Jeff Leake (47:17):
Yeah? If he wants to come in and slap us around a
little,

Dave Leake (47:20):
take it, yeah, but it really is. And I think, I
think that there, okay, there isa natural, especially with my
generation too. There's anatural, um aversion to anything
that sounds like 90s religiousstandards, like Harry Potter,
Pokemon, Star Wars, Disney. Butat the same time, all of that
stuff has gotten moreaggressively, openly anti

(47:41):
Christian and, yeah, demonic. I

Jeff Leake (47:43):
actually think that maybe some of the reaction the
90s was the fact that we, whowere, you know, I was what, 30
years younger at the time, wecould see where it was going. It
hadn't gone bad yet, but wecould see it was going bad. And
so we were like, you can't watchthat, because it's going bad,
but it really wasn't bad yet. Itwas actually it would be
considered really goodprogramming now, in comparison

(48:05):
with the dark things that areout there today. Yeah, but we
could see it was headed in thatdirection, and then it just took
30 years to get there. Well, nowyour generation is 30 years down
the round route, and we're like,see, we told you it was going
here, but how are we sellingourselves being too strict on
things that were probably tinywasn't probably the answer to a

(48:26):
culture that was deterioratingbefore our eyes. So I think, I
think what's happened, Dave isour country has rejected
Christianity, and it is replacedChristianity with paganism.
Yeah, so we're back to NewTestament era living. Basically
we're living just like in thearea of the Bible, where they
used to go to temples andworship false gods and demonic

(48:47):
powers would be involved. Andthey had to be constantly alert
of the fact that the wholeculture was involved with this,
paganism, pagan sexuality, paganidols, spiritualism, darkness,
demon possession, like it wasthe it was the air that they
breathed. Yep, when you became aChristian, you had to come out
of that, and you had to join acommunity of people who was

(49:07):
living differently. We were in aculture that breathed
Christianity as sort of the air.
And now the and that paganismhas taken over, yeah, and
paganism is violently opposed toChristianity. What was the, what
was the series you

Dave Leake (49:21):
did on it was the on the churches in Revelation
three, yeah. Was it calledLetters

Jeff Leake (49:27):
from the end of the world, letter revelation two and
three. Remember

Dave Leake (49:31):
you? You had that one series that was talking
about one of the churches that,like, there's so much idol
worship like to go to your job,you'd have to kiss, yeah? Well,

Jeff Leake (49:40):
so in a I think it was in the city of Thyatira,
which is a city in Turkey,modern day Turkey, there were
trade guilds, and every tradeguild had a mascot God. So it
was like if you were acarpenter, the carpenters guild
had a god that was giving favor.
To the carpenters, right? Andwhen you would go to work as a

(50:01):
carpenter, and you would go intothe shop, you would have to
kneel and kiss the idol tobelong to the carpenter,
carpenter skill. So when youbecame a Christian, you could no
longer kiss the God because youwere serving Jesus, which meant
you probably were going to loseyour job because you would
refuse to worship the idol, andtherefore couldn't participate

(50:23):
in that economic opportunity.
Yeah, so there's a, there werereal consequences to saying, I'm
not gonna, I'm not gonnaFortnite, it, whatever that,
whatever that guy's name is,again, but

Dave Leake (50:36):
there was another one I'm thinking of. You were
talking about how there, therewas a marketplace Christians
were entering, where they weredoing like human sacrifice, or
it was at

Jeff Leake (50:48):
the So, Pergamum is the city in Revelation. I think
it's two where the city whereSatan has his throne, yeah, and
there were two huge temples thatwere in Pergamum. One was the
temple to Zeus, which was theprimary God, and in Roman, in
the Roman deities. And then thesecond was the the temple to the

(51:09):
the emperor of of of Rome. Andthey would, they would offer
animal and and human sacrificesin both of those temples. And so
to, as a Christian, you had todecide, and the in the
celebration of Zeus and theEmperor God, they would have
these huge feasts and and in thefeasts, this was the place you

(51:32):
made business, businessconnections. So if you're a
Christian, business person, andyou're invited to the feast of
Zeus, yeah, where they're goingto throw a child into the fire,
right? Okay, but, but if you'rethere, you have the chance to
make some important connectionswith other business leaders. If
you're not there, you're notgoing to have the opportunity to
make business so Christians werebeing sort of elbowed out of

(51:53):
society. To be a Christian meantyou had to make some very strict
decisions about whether you'd bepresent at the the idle feasts,
right, right? And if you choseto forsake that, that meant an
economic loss. There was likegenuine cost, yeah? So turning
off a movie, yeah, not listeningto music, choosing not to play a
certain part of Fortnite, yeah,is no real sacrifice

Dave Leake (52:17):
in comparison. And even so, I was gonna give an
example, but because you'retalking about that like they
needed to, not like they werebased on the choice, not just of
the feast, but do we want toeven enter the marketplaces
where this stuff is happening?
Yeah, because it's, it's or

Jeff Leake (52:30):
eat the meat that had been offered to these idols.
There was a debate about that,how, how close do you get to the
feast that they had to Zeus? Soshould you eat the leftover meat
that there was a part of thatfestival? This was a lot of the
debates that they were having.

Dave Leake (52:42):
So for a modern equivalent, I don't think it's
it's not nearly the sacrifice,but I do think things like,
Should you attend this concertwhere this person is known to
say these things? Or, you

Jeff Leake (52:55):
know what I mean, first century Christians would
look at us like, like, You'reridiculous, because our lives
were usually think about that.
Don't you know what we what wepaid the price for? Yeah, like
entertainment, yeah. And Ireally like this artist, right?
Ours is refusing entertainment.
Theirs was losing a job. Yeah,honestly, it's possible that in

(53:17):
in the few generations from now,we may be there. Paganism may
try to make Christianity beimpractical, like someone that
would believe in in the factthat babies in the womb should
be protected, or that marriageis between a husband and a wife,
man and woman, that that you arethe the gender you were born

(53:38):
with. Like these kinds ofradical ideas to our culture may
not be allowed in the publicsquare anymore, sure. And when
you hold to the idea that Jesus,Christ is the Lord and Savior,
you might not necessarily beable to hold a job in the
future. That does seem to bewhere we're headed to. But for
now, it's creeping in, in theentertainments, and so creeping

(53:59):
it's, it's, it's aggressivelymoving into Ira hose. And you
have to realize that, that themoat, that the force behind
this, not every entertainer, notevery Hollywood writer, not
every podcaster, not everybodywho's singing songs. But there
is a, there is a spiritual forcebehind this. Absolutely it is
trying to destroy culture,destroy people. Yes, and these

(54:24):
are, these is not our friend,right? As much as there is, as
much we want to love people, andwe want to see people in this
industry saved. It's not, we'renot branding them as the enemy.
Of course, we are saying thereis an enemy behind this, yes,
which is the powers of darkness,Satan and demonic forces that
are trying to unraveleverything.

Dave Leake (54:42):
Well, as much as there are moves of God that are
orchestrated by God himself tobring good into the world, there
are clearly moves of the devil,and they're not random, and
they're not just human evil. And

Jeff Leake (54:51):
there is one going on right now.

Dave Leake (54:52):
It's being orchestrated. It's, it's about
as obvious as it could possiblybe. Like it's, it

Jeff Leake (54:57):
doesn't it feel like so I'm, I. A touch, but it feels
in some ways, like manyChristians are just asleep.

Dave Leake (55:05):
I feel like that too. I and I it's almost like
doing a podcast like this orhaving conversation. It makes
some people be like, okay, likeyou're you're being religious,
but like, without Okay,religious standards would be
like, we judge somebody for onespecific choice of
entertainment. Yeah, I don'tthink the goal, or even the
hardest, is at all to say, like,how could you idiot? Like, stop?

(55:29):
But it's sort of like it doesfeel like many of us are asleep,
yeah? And I think if we don'twake up to the threat, like,
we're going to allow all of thiscrap to infiltrate our families,
to infiltrate our own spirituallives. We're giving the devil a
foothold. We're really even,even just this idea. Like, I

(55:49):
don't I think that there shouldbe a level of, I'm not saying
vocal pitchfork, but Christianopposition, or at least
abstinence from these programs,

Jeff Leake (55:57):
opposition. I'm not sure that does anything, but
abstinence does,

Dave Leake (56:02):
yeah, like, like, withdraw from participation. I'm
not, I'm not saying, like, firetorches.

Jeff Leake (56:08):
I can't watch that guys turn it off. Like, not when
I'm here, not not. It's justthat's, that's not right, okay,
here's, here's what it says,Romans, chapter 13. And do this
understanding the present time,the hour has come for you to
wake up from your slumber,because our salvation is nearer
now than when we first believed.
The night is nearly over, whichis where we're at now. Darkness

(56:29):
is raining. The night is nearlyover, the day is almost here,
the day when Jesus comes back.
So let us put aside the deeds ofdarkness and put on the armor of
light. Let us behave decently asin the daytime, not carousing
and drunkenness, not incarousing and drunkenness, not
in sexual immorality anddebauchery, not in dissension

(56:50):
and jealousies or hyperviolence. I added that one
rather clothe yourselves withthe Lord Jesus Christ, and do
not think about how to gratifythe desires of the flesh. Yeah.
That is a good summary for whatwe've been trying to talk about
today. So and then it goes on tosay, except one whose faith is
weak without quarreling overdisputable matters, we realize

(57:11):
that some of this falls into thearea of everybody has to make up
their own mind where they land,and we shouldn't be judging each
other all the time, and yet, atthe same time, we have to take
things more seriously than Ithink we have been, yeah,

Dave Leake (57:25):
yeah. And in Second Corinthians two, it talks about
being aware of the devil'sschemes. He says, Yeah. He talks
about the things he's doing sothat Satan might not outwit us,
for we are not unaware of hisschemes. I think that's the
thing that feels like thebiggest risk is that we are
currently unaware, totallyunaware. Like, what do you what

(57:45):
is even doing? Who knows he'sdoing something? And I think
it's our job to educateourselves and start to start to
ask God and to become aware ofwhat the schemes actually are.

Jeff Leake (57:55):
Yeah, it's one thing for it to be behind closed
doors. You know, the P Diddyscandal. It's hidden from sight.
He's been scheming. The devil'sbeen, you know, leveraging the
whatever is going on in thisguy's life to do a lot of harm.
But when it comes above ground,and Satan is performing on stage

(58:15):
at the Emmys or Grammys orwhatever, when it's when it's
the theme of the entertainmentin the Olympics, right? When
it's when it's when it's When,when, all of a sudden, Fortnite
gets an underworld. Like, okay?
Like, you have to say, what? Whydo you need an underworld? Like,
isn't there enough entertainmentin this game? You gotta have an

(58:37):
underworld, and you gotta havethis exchange with the devil. I
mean, come on, like there is anagenda here, and there are
forces at work that are that arenow becoming aggressive,

Dave Leake (58:48):
yeah, even if it's not a human agenda, there is a
demonic agenda that's being,that's being

Jeff Leake (58:54):
permeating everything

Dave Leake (58:55):
exactly. It's

Jeff Leake (58:56):
like the devil is like, hey, they accept us now we
don't even have to. We're cool.
Yeah, we're cool. It's cool.
Like, let's just go straight atthem, though. Yeah,

Dave Leake (59:05):
there I showed you that article, but there was that
article that from last year,Newsweek, that said, like, the
how the devil is becoming hot ashell and pop culture.

Jeff Leake (59:13):
That's Newsweek. Is that? We said, yeah, yeah, yeah,
wow. That's just so that was thearticle title. That

Dave Leake (59:18):
was the article title,

Jeff Leake (59:19):
the devil is becoming hot as hell in popcorn.
Yeah, yeah. Newsweek is sayingthat nothing we're saying is
controversial. No, no, ofcourse. I mean, yeah, obviously.
If so so this is obvious, thenyeah, it's obvious. The secular
world recognizes what we justsaid is true. They're just

Dave Leake (59:38):
saying Christians are getting into this moral
panic and making a big deal ofnothing. And I think as
Christians, we have to be like,No, this is a big deal. This is
actually a really big deal.
Let's not be like, Oh, you'reright. Let's just chill out
about it. It's just Satan orjust inviting demons. Sarah, I
wish I could find it. Sarahshowed me this funny reel that
came up where it was. Like, it'slike, this guy, you know,

(01:00:00):
they'll do it like, the guy willbe one person. He's like,
reacting that he's beingsomebody else. And as this guy,
who's like, at a concert, andhe, like, comes there and the
guy on the stage is like, he'slike, All right, everybody,
let's invite the demons. I waslike, oh, and he's like, What?
He's like, straight to hell,because, but that's like, that's
what a lot of concerts arebecoming like, like, it's like,
demons, Demons, demons. Like,because there's something,

(01:00:22):
there's something cool inculture about that, like, it's
hard, and it's like, aggressiveand it's non conformist anyway.
Getting on a tangent here, Ijust think, let's be aware.
Let's have filters. Let's notjust say, and this isn't that
big of a deal. I'd rather beentertained. I think let's be
careful. Let's be aware of thedevil's schemes. Let's put on
the armor of God and man. Let'sshut some doors that are just

(01:00:46):
wide open, because I think we doneed to be a little bit more
awake.

Jeff Leake (01:00:51):
Yeah. Well, honestly, Dave, this has been
the most educational episode forme. I've learned more things I
had no idea about, and Iactually, you made me because I
am for other reasons, notbecause I'm trying to stay away
from demons. I mean, I'm justnot, I'm just not in touch with
a lot of these popular culturethings. So for me, as a pastor,

(01:01:12):
you've helped me. Oh, cool,yeah. And hopefully, if you're a
pastor out there, maybe, maybethis episode helped you to be a
little bit more aware than youwere before. Yeah, if you're
already aware of it, maybe wehelp to just raise the alarm in
you a little bit

Dave Leake (01:01:25):
Absolutely. Well, we appreciate you joining us as
always, and you know, there's anumber of ways that you could
really help us out and do usfavor. If you could like and
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(01:01:46):
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help us to spread the word wouldbe greatly appreciated. Yep,

Jeff Leake (01:01:56):
and we have added this feature now where we were
able to watch some clips. Weknow this is a very common thing
on podcast today. If there's aparticular clip that you like
that you would like to see usaddress you've given us topics
before, we'd love to we'd loveto hear from you about some of
that too, absolutely.

Dave Leake (01:02:13):
Well, hope you guys have a great day, and we'll
catch you guys again next timeyou.