How Do I Become a Mature Christian? The Markers to Look For

Ever wonder what it really means to grow in your faith?

In this honest and grace-filled conversation, Pastors Dave and Jeff sit down to unpack what spiritual maturity looks like—and what might be holding you back. This isn’t a lecture—it’s a real talk about the journey from surface-level faith to a deeper, more authentic walk with Jesus.

We explore questions like:

• Why do I still feel stuck in my faith?
• What does maturity actually look like?
• How can I grow without falling into religious performance?

Whether you’re new to faith or have been following Jesus for years, this discussion is here to encourage you, challenge you, and help you take your next step forward.

🔗 Watch now and join the conversation on becoming the disciple God is calling you to be.

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
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[e-mail]
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
What makes a mature Christian? A lot of us are on a

(00:03):
journey to follow Jesus, whichmeans a whole bunch of things.
And so we want to talk todayabout what's optional, and what
really does a mature Christianlook like? You know, obviously,
none of us are the Son of God,and we're not going to be just
like Jesus, but the goal of theBible, you know, of Christians,
is actually to become more andmore like Jesus. So what does it

(00:25):
look like? Where does it stop?
What is basic for everybody,what's sort of above and beyond,
and how do we pursue a maturerelationship with God without
becoming religious orPharisaical? If you wanna hear
more about this, tune in Heyeverybody. Welcome to the
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we have a culture creating
conversation. Creatingconversations. My name is Dave

Jeff Leake (00:44):
and my name is Jeff, and we're glad you've joined us
today. So again, father and son,we're also, at least for a few
more months on staff together atAllison Park Church, David at
the Northside campus and I'm theLead Pastor. A couple episodes
ago, we introduced the idea thatDave's going to Jacksonville to
plant the church in 2026 sowe're pumped about that. And

(01:05):
some of you have asked, Will wecontinue to do the podcast? So
what's the answer that we

Dave Leake (01:09):
will continue to do it some way, somehow we haven't
figured out how yet, probablyjust streaming somehow.

Jeff Leake (01:15):
Probably streaming.
Maybe sometimes we'll fly you upand we'll have some in studio
things. Actually, probably thestreaming may give us some
options to interview some peoplewho aren't in town that we
haven't been doing since. Butwe're

Dave Leake (01:26):
thinking about experimenting by building an AI
personality of me that can be onthe screen. By the way,

Jeff Leake (01:31):
I would just say, since our AI episode a couple of
weeks ago, man, I have beenusing chat GBT

Dave Leake (01:37):
every day. Yeah, were you the one that made that
baby video of us?

Jeff Leake (01:41):
No, that was producer, Matt, by the way, that
may have been the most likedvideo I have ever posted on my

Dave Leake (01:46):
social I have people from all over the world that are
contacting me about that videothat are still like, yeah, so
maybe, maybe we'll have babyDave is the personality teach
you to think how I think. Allright. Anyway, today, we want
to, as we always do, give aquick shout out and thanks
everybody who's a regularlistener, nobody today to give a

(02:07):
specific shout out who left afive star review, but if you
want that, you can leave us afive star review on Apple
podcast, we'll see your name,hopefully at some point, other
podcast platforms let us see ausername, because we give a lot
more shout outs. But any waythat you can help spread

Jeff Leake (02:21):
the word, be super helpful. So even helpful. So
even if you just like the videoyou're watching, that helps.

Dave Leake (02:26):
So that helps, that helps. All right, let's get into
it. Yeah. So you were, we werehaving a discussion today about
what to do the podcast on, andone of the things that I think
has been an interesting topicfor me recently, we've had long
conversations about a fullerdiscussion of this. But what are
the marks of a mature Christian,specifically, when it comes to

(02:50):
practices, experiences, thingslike that. Craig Groeschel, I
think, has a measurement hecalls the fdfd. I think it's
fully devoted. Follow or wait,fully devoted follower of
Christ, fdfc, maybe is what itis, okay? And it's a, it's a
measurement of like, how do weknow when somebody is arriving

(03:11):
at a level of maturity? What arethe life practices? There's
probably character qualitiesthat are obviously

Jeff Leake (03:16):
there as well.
Willow Creek and Bill applesyears ago did that too. It was a
way for them to measure thequalitative aspects of whether
or not their church is beingeffective, right? So it was sort
of like, you know, how do youknow your church is doing well?
Well, you measure how manypeople are coming every weekend,
how many people are in smallgroups, how many people are are
giving or whatever. And this wasmore like an individual profile,

(03:36):
right? Is that what CraigGroeschel is like, yeah, yeah.
How many people in their lifehave done these four things? Are
doing these four things? Is thatcorrect?

Dave Leake (03:46):
Yeah, and I'll get more information in just a
second on exactly what thatentails. But I think that the
conversation that I want to havetoday is about an individual.
Well, I guess if you're apastor, maybe you're thinking of
a leadership angle. But ifyou're a follower of

Jeff Leake (04:02):
Jesus, say, How am I doing? Yeah, yeah. And maybe let
it be shooting for

Dave Leake (04:06):
Yeah. Like, how do I continue to take steps that are
progressing forward? Also, Ithink one of the things that I'm
I would have been curious about,especially when I was younger,
is like, what things areeverybody should be doing this,
and what things are like. Thisis a cherry on top. This is
advanced. This is great, butmaybe this is not like the

(04:28):
expectation in general. You knowwhat I'm saying? Yeah, so, like
I read about William Seymour,and before the Azusa Street
Revival came, he was prayingfive hours a day for a year and
a half, and he felt like he waspraying to God, like, why isn't
something happening? God said,pray more. So he ended up
praying seven hours a day foranother couple of years until

(04:49):
that came through. That'sprobably not every Christian
should be praying seven hours aday, or else, it's not a mark of
mature believer, right? That's

Jeff Leake (04:57):
like, although I will just say so a little bit
more about. Background. This isan amazing, historic leader that
Dave just mentioned. So the thepoint person for the Azusa
Street revivals, which happenedin the early 1900s out in Los
Angeles, California. He led athree year revival which
basically launched Pentecostalcharismatic Christianity, which

(05:21):
is now almost a billion peoplearound the world, right? So
obviously, guy had a specialassignment for him, but seven
hours a day. So what you saidfor how long? Well, I think it
was several years. Okay, so Iknow going through Bible
college, at a Pentecostalcharismatic Bible college that
appreciated the history of theZuzu street revivals. Oftentimes

(05:42):
someone will share a story justlike that one, and then the
challenge would be, okay, nowstep up. Now you need to have
that kind of prayer life and andfor me as a as a young man,
first born, achievement orientedhuman being, I always felt like
I could never measure up, like Iwould never be committed enough.

(06:02):
I would never be faith filledenough. I would never be hungry
enough. Like, no matter what Iwould do, I would always fall
short of the William Seymour,not just him, but whatever
standard we're going to use thattarget right of what Christians
should be. And so I do think ifwe don't have reasonable, God

(06:23):
based, Grace oriented, yetchallenging standards for what
we're looking for, yeah, eithercan lead to laziness and apathy,
or it can lead to what would youcall that, performance neurosis?
Yeah, it's your religion,security. It's sort

Dave Leake (06:39):
of like performance based religion, yeah, right,
where you're trying to earn acertain level of spiritual rank,
I guess, in a way, yeah, and so,so I think that's kind of where
the discussion should go. Now,obviously, praying for seven
hours a day is wonderful, but Iguess here's the other side of
it too. Like when you said itstudied the life of Jesus, I

(07:01):
think people's natural reactionswould be like, well, I know
we're supposed to be like him,but, I mean, come on, he is the
Son of God like you can't expectall this of me, but there's a
level of we should be like thatin a lot of ways, maybe, and
maybe in most ways, even notthat we're gonna die on a cross
in a literal way. So let's just,let's just open this up, like,

(07:22):
Okay, I'm I guess we can juststart with, with a broad,
sweeping what are the marks ofsomeone who is mature, or
maturing at a high level intheir walk with Jesus? I guess
you never, maybe receive fullcompleteness till we get to
heaven. But what are the marks,or do we wanna start?

Jeff Leake (07:42):
Yeah, so the first thing that comes into my mind is
that I'm glad in some so I'minspired by William Seymour
story. I love the idea you cansee what he put in and what was
the result of his life. But I'min some ways glad that the
William Seymour story isn't inthe New Testament, right?
Because I think we have to startwith the idea that whatever

(08:05):
we're shooting for should bebased in the New Testament. It
shouldn't be based on somestory. You heard about this
legend who did certain thingsbecause we weren't there at
William Seymour's life. We don'tknow if he did seven hours every
day, no matter what day in andday out. Were there some days
that he did seven hours. So it'shard to go off of hearsay

(08:25):
stories that are wonderfulinspirations, but I would much
rather go back to Jesus's lifeand ministry the disciples life
and ministry in the book ofActs, because then you have
solid biblical basis for whatyou're doing, and everything we
do, and everything we believeand everything we practice
should come out of thescriptures. So let's, let's set

(08:48):
William Seymour seven hours aday practice aside for a minute,
and let's go into New Testament.
Now, let's ask the question. Sohow did you ask it? Dave, what's
the

Dave Leake (08:57):
mark? The marks?
Yeah,

Jeff Leake (08:59):
yeah. So what are the marks of a mature Christian?
So what did Jesus tell us to do?
He said, love God with all yourheart, mind, soul and strength
and love your neighbor asyourself. So I think that those
things would have to beinvolved, right? Because
they're, they're the greatcommandment. And then, you know,
the overarching command of Jesuswas love one another, right? So

(09:20):
a new command I give you thatyou would love one another. So I
think you could be reading yourBible, and you could be praying
and you could be giving a lot ofmoney. Isn't this actually what
First Corinthians says, but ifyou don't have love, right? That
none of that matters. So somehowlove, this has to be involved
with that, right? So that's onething, I guess. I guess you

(09:42):
could peel that off a bit. Youwould say, Love God, Love your
neighbor, love one another,those three things, so a mature
Christian would be developing anintimate, ongoing, deepening
love relationship with. TheirCreator, right? So time and
effort and energy is being putinto loving God with all your

(10:05):
heart, mind, soul and strength,that that's not just a vibe,
vibey thing, like, yeah, I loveGod with everything. It's, it's,
I mean, if I say I love my wife,but I don't ever spend time with
her, then probably I'm missingsomething. So do you think
that's hitting some target

Dave Leake (10:23):
there? Yeah, let's, so let's, let's keep going into
detail and I'll frame it,because I think you'll probably
feel pressure to frame it if Idon't do this part. Well, I
don't think what we are doing onthis podcast is looking for
people to feel judged based onor pressure practice or practice

(10:44):
pressured based on practices youdo or don't have in your life.
But at the same time, I thinkthat this is helpful to talk
about marks of maturity. Solike, okay, for example, we're
now where you're going with thisis time with God, right? I think
talking

Jeff Leake (11:02):
about intimacy with God, but yes, which involves,
well,

Dave Leake (11:06):
you said time with your wife, right? Yeah, intimacy
with God, which involves time,when we get into specifics of
that, if somebody's like, Well,I only spend five hours a day
instead of like, obviously, it'san exaggeration, but I think
that there could be a tendencyto feel judged, however, this
is, this is what I want topropose. Like it would be good
for us to talk about healthypractices like i So I'll start

(11:28):
by saying this probably a matureChristian has time with God
every day. It doesn't mean thatwe would never miss an
appointment with God, but themark of a mature Christian would
be that there's some time setaside for a person to be with
God, and a intentional waybeyond just I live with God, I
walk with God in my daily life,right? Would you agree with

(11:50):
that?

Jeff Leake (11:50):
And we see that pattern in Jesus's life. So we
would say Jesus got as a patternthroughout the New Testament. He
got up early before it wasbefore it was day break, and he
spent time with his father, soyeah, think there's time that's
probably extended time where therelationship is being developed,
and for us, that means divinginto his word, which is how he

(12:12):
primarily talks to us, andspending time in prayer, which
is how we talk to him. Iremember Dave as a young person,
and I've probably told this invarious formats, but after I
gave my life to Christ, so pre15 years old, I attended church
and I went to youth events, butI didn't spend time every day
with God. I was never I don'tthink I ever did, I don't think
I ever got up and read my Bibleand prayed. But the moment I

(12:35):
gave my life to Jesus Christ,afterward, I talked to my youth
pastor. My youth pastor said,now you need to spend time
praying every day. I was like,Okay, great. I didn't know what
that meant, though. So Iremember sitting down to pray,
and it took me, like, threeminutes. If you'd have told me
the William Seymour story, atthat particular point, he prayed
seven hours a day, I would Iwould have been like, What the
heck is he doing? Like, becauseI ran out of stuff to ask God

(12:58):
for. I didn't know what thatwas. Spend time with God. Like,
what does that even mean? Like,I had a list of prayer things
written up. And how many thingscan you ask for, right? So I had
to develop a skill set of whatit was to to just be with him,
which is involving, you know,involves worship and involves
journaling. It involvesmeditation. Give

Dave Leake (13:19):
us a quick like, a sampler of a standard,
standardized format for somebodywho wants to up their prayer
life, standardized. Like, here'show you can follow a pattern.

Jeff Leake (13:30):
Yeah, okay. I love prayer patterns. By the way,
I've written a book calledpraying with confidence, which
gives you 31 plus prayerpatterns that you can use so
that when you get into yourprayer time, you know what to
do. But the simplest one isbasically the AX format, A, C,
T, S. You familiar with

Dave Leake (13:47):
that? You abbreviated it as packed when we
were a kid. I did remember that?

Jeff Leake (13:51):
P, A, C, T, yeah, okay. Give me the P, A, C, I
don't remember what that was.

Dave Leake (13:56):
Praise, ask, confess, Thanksgiving.

Jeff Leake (14:00):
Okay, there you go.
That's good. So there you go. Soyou

Dave Leake (14:02):
avoid supplication, yeah, yeah. So the A,

Jeff Leake (14:05):
C, T, S is adoration, confession,
thanksgiving, supplication.
Supplication is this bigreligious word, which means,
basically, to ask God for yourneeds to be met. Adoration is
worship, yeah, so I gave youpacked good. That's a good one.
I forgot about

Unknown (14:21):
that. Yeah, so out of

Dave Leake (14:23):
the 11 year old,

Jeff Leake (14:24):
basically, my youth pastor told me, spend five
minutes on each and forceyourself to stay there for five
minutes. So five minutes inpraise.

Dave Leake (14:33):
Well, praise is easy. Well, it it is worship
song. Well,

Jeff Leake (14:36):
it wasn't in the time I was 15, yeah, I had to
get a vinyl record. Pull out ahymn book somewhere. But now it
is right, you just play, youknow, turn in on the song firm
foundation, sing the lyrics in aprivate place. You're there,
right? Can you spend that fiveminutes confession? This is,
this is sort of based on theLord's Prayer. Okay? Second one.

(14:59):
So. Praise, ask. Okay, ask iseasy too, right? So what do you
need that you're asking God for?
Make a list. What's great to dois to actually track the
answers. So if you have anotebook somewhere, maybe a page
in your Bible, you write downyour prayer list when it's met.
You have a second column thatshows that.

Dave Leake (15:16):
And I'd say in the Ask category, you should have it
big and bold me, and then bulletpoints, and then others and
bullet points, because thathelps to be like, how many do I
have in these categories? Youmean? Because I think early on,
it's like, if you, if you don'thave it listed like that, it's
like me is like 90% and thenyou're like my kids is like, if

(15:38):
you, you know what

Jeff Leake (15:39):
I'm saying, Sure so.
And in the praying withconfidence book, I go beyond
specific things we're asking forto scriptures that we're
declaring, which is actually alittle more mature version of
that. So praise. Ask confess.
Confess is twofold. It's Forgiveus our debts as we forgive our
debtors. So it's in doing aninventory inside your life to

(16:00):
find out what it is that is notright. You know where you might
be giving into some kind of sinin your life, in your thoughts
or your choices or your actions,confessing it before God, asking
him to cleanse your life throughHis shed blood on the cross. And
then second is forgiving thosewho've offended you. And this is
where you look inside to see, amI carrying any hurt or offense?

(16:22):
And where you then go before Godto say, I choose now to forgive
this. I release it to you, andGod begins to set you free
inside. And then the last one isThanksgiving, which also could
be a song, could be a song aboutThanksgiving, or it could just
be creating a list my mypersonal challenge when I get
into the Thanksgiving point ofprayer, as I challenge myself to
come up with 30. Well, that'sgood, 30 things I'm thankful

(16:44):
for. 10 I can come up with quick15. I'm starting to have to
think 30 makes me really do someinvestigation of what am I
overlooking in my life. Andyeah, you spend five minutes on
each of those, and then youspend 10 minutes reading the
Bible, you have a 30 minuteprayer time that's very
structured and packaged well,and it makes you feel like, when

(17:07):
you're done, you feel like,yeah, like, I'm I'm now,
sometimes you're you don't haveto spend 30 you can get through
it quicker. And other times youget into it, you might be there
for two hours

Dave Leake (17:18):
well, you know. So honestly, if you do five minutes
in each of those, that's 20. Andthen if you pick up a one year
Bible or a one year Biblereading plan, that's another
that's easily 10. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (17:28):
But sometimes what happened for me Davis, I would
get into confession, and therewas a lot more there to unpack,
right than I could do in fiveminutes. Or I would get into
asking, and I was heavy aboutsomething, and it was there was
a lot more. Or sometimes I wouldsing one in in my praise
section, and then I just hit azone where I felt the presence
of God, and I just wanted tocontinue. So I would do two or

(17:51):
three more songs. And beforelong, your prayer time is
extending, because you'rebeginning to go from Okay, so
Cal, Pastor, Cal, who's a heroat Allison. We did this like,
years ago. Yeah, yeah. So hesays, you start at first. He
said, prayer was a duty, right?
And I just did it because I knewI had to. Then it became a

(18:11):
discipline, right? Where I was,I was doing it on a regular
basis, and it was habitual. Thenit became a delight in my life.
I think I'm missing a D, there'sa third one, yeah, anyway, but,
but that's where you end up, iswhere all of a sudden your
discipline goes from, you know,I have to to get to like I so
enjoy being with God in theseprayer moments. And remember,

(18:36):
you're talking to a person, solike when you start to engage
with him, what the Bible says,if you draw near to Him, He'll
draw near to you. So there is athere is a revolutionary,
transformative component tohaving this daily time with God.
Yeah, so love God with all yourheart, mind, soul and strength,
has to do with developing anintimacy with God through the

(18:58):
discipline of prayer and Biblereading.

Dave Leake (19:02):
Can I add a couple of things, since we're on
remarks of a mature Christian?
So a couple of clarifications.
One, I think the difference, incase it's a little confusing,
between praise and thanksgiving,Praise is where you're thanking
God for who he is, andThanksgiving, in terms of the
prayer format, tends to be forwhat he's done. Yeah, you know,
like, Thank you God for myfamily. Thank you for providing

(19:25):
for us.

Jeff Leake (19:25):
Thank you that I can hear and I can see phrases for
that cup,

Dave Leake (19:29):
because you're good, you're worthy of praise. And
yeah, it's, it's all those kindsof things. Second thing, I would
say is a clarifying thing whenthey get really Pentecostal
here, but I actually think a amark of mature prayer life is
also having dedicated time eachday to praying in the Spirit.
Yeah. So I actually, for me, Inotice a really, really big

(19:50):
difference in my prayer time.
Whenever I have just dedicatedtime praying in the Spirit,
here's what, here's kind of whatit looks like to me. So we're
talking about, you know, thegift of. Of praying in tongues,
you know, based out of Acts twoor Romans, where it says, you
know that, that when we don'tknow what to pray, the spirit
prays through us. They'reworthless groans. So I

Jeff Leake (20:09):
think, I think I have started to say it like
this, praying, singing andgroaning out of your spirit, or
out of the spirit, meaning thatyou, you don't just do it out of
your head,

Dave Leake (20:21):
yeah, but I'll push back. Is the idea of praying? It
is

Jeff Leake (20:26):
it starts there, though, sure, sure. So for a
person that's like Beginning thejourney, it starts with this
feeling of out of my chest. Istart to sing to God like not a
it's not a head thing anymore.
It's the Holy Spirit who liveswithin me interacting with my
spirit as I'm crying out to God,sure, right? But and then what
often happens is that the giftof spiritual language, or

(20:47):
speaking in tongues, happenswhere you start to flow in that
and the Holy Spirit startspraying through you. But I think
it all starts there. Like tounderstand what that is singing
out of your spirit, or keepgoing, yeah?

Dave Leake (20:59):
Well, so okay, this is probably a topic for the

Jeff Leake (21:03):
future. By the way, probably a lot of what William
Seymour was doing for sevenhours. This is probably,

Dave Leake (21:07):
this is probably a topic for the future. And I know
we've probably talked about thissomewhat, but you know, the
older I get, I think when I wasyounger, there was, especially
in Bible college time, there wasa little bit of an embarrassment
for me over the idea of prayingin tongues. But like, oh,
Pentecostals make this huge dealout of it. And you know, in the
ag, one of the 16 fundamentaltruths is that the bap, that

(21:32):
tongues, is the initial physicalevidence of baptism, Holy
Spirit, meaning the first thingthat we see out as an outward
sign of the inwardtransformation of the baptism.
Holy Spirit is actually hisprayer language.

Jeff Leake (21:42):
So big deal. Have we ever done an episode on this?

Dave Leake (21:44):
I don't know.
Producer, Matt, do you rememberus ever doing an episode on
this? Speaking in tongues?
Let's, let's, let's do one.

Jeff Leake (21:50):
At some point, we should do a whole episode just
on this. Okay, there's so manyquestions. I'll just say a
little bit with this

Dave Leake (21:55):
then, because, as you know, I guess spoiler, we're
probably gonna record a secondepisode today. Maybe I'll do
this next but my quick thing onthis note that I'll mention, I
think the more the older I'vegotten, the more I'm like, this
is a key for my spiritual life.
Like it's not just a sign ofbaptism in the Holy Spirit. It's
not just a Pentecostalfoundation. I noticed that I

(22:16):
take offense a lot easier whenI'm not praying in the Spirit
consistently, I notice I haveless energy, I have less grace.
I It's like, I have less of abarrier. And I feel like
whenever I typically, it's like,I'll put on, you know, hour long
worship session on YouTube byJesus image, or just some, you
know, some of their plans. I'man acoustic and I just am

(22:38):
singing out loud in English, andthen I'll, you know, pray in my
spirit. And you know, I'll findthis first. But you know, Paul
talks about like, if I pray inmy mind, my spirits
unproductive. If I pray in myspirit, my mind's a productive.
Talks about like, sort ofcombining those sort of two
together. So sometimes I'mpraying in my in my prayer
language, where I my minddoesn't understand it, but in my
mind I'm singing the same songs,so I'll sing in English, and I

(23:01):
don't know, and to me that thatcultivates this intimacy, and it
cultivates this like this. It'smore than a feeling of fullness.
It's just like, I don't know.
It's like a it's like the lifethat I you know, you talked
about digging wells, the otherlike, I don't know, a number of
episodes ago, digging wells tobe in God's presence. I think

(23:24):
the prayer format is huge. Ithink intercession, praying for
other people, is huge. I thinkworship is huge. But I have to
have dedicated time just prayingMy prayer language, or else I'm
not who I should be. So

Jeff Leake (23:38):
yeah, we did do an episode at one point on the
baptism of the Holy Spirit,Dave. But I don't think we dove
on the tongues aspect like weprobably could in a future
episode. So let me just say, ifyou are interested in more
information about what Dave'stalking about, and you do a
search of our previous episodes,you'll find something on the
baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Again, I'm not here promo in mybooks, but these are two

(23:59):
passions of mine, prayer and thebaptism Holy Spirit. So I have
another book that that Ipublished, called gateway to
supernatural life, which alsogives some insight on that. But
for most people, that is verymature prayer, right? Like what
we just described, that's a veryrobust, mature prayer life that
that we would say, okay,connecting, making an intimate

(24:21):
relationship with God throughdevoted time. Love God with all
your heart, mind, soul and

Dave Leake (24:27):
strength, I would also say, and we touched on
this, but a next one that Iwould throw that tags off. You
know this, whenever Jesus is inthe wilderness and he's being
tempted, He says, you know, mancannot live by bread alone, but
by every word that comes to themouth of God. So I think another
mark of a mature Christian isknowing the Word of God. Yeah,
being in it or it's in youregular. It's not just hearing

(24:48):
sermons or or clips or watchingonline, but actually being in
the Word of God where it'simpacting me and causing me to
love Jesus more and to lovepeople and to. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (25:00):
So one of the I'll take a little rabbit trail here,
if it's okay, yeah, one of thethings I learned when I went to
Israel the last time there withCenter for Holy Land studies,
and Jeremy Stein, who's our,our, you know, very proficient
guide, who has, you know, a lotof theological background,
historical background. Hedescribed how the disciples of
Jesus, a lot of them, and Jesushimself grew up in Galilee. And

(25:23):
for most people living inGalilee, who were in the
Pharisee sect of things, theirchildren were devoted to
becoming potential rabbis, allof them, and they spent half the
day on a trade. For most of thedisciples, they were fishermen,
and on the other half, the dayspent it in synagogue memorizing
the Torah. Yeah, so Jesus, as ayoung man, would have memorized

(25:46):
most of the Torah and manypassages in the Psalms and in
the prophetic books. So when hepulls out verses that he's
teaching on, you got to rememberhe wasn't carrying around a
pocket Bible, right? Because theonly way you could get the Bible
was in a synagogue and it was ina scroll. It was because he had
committed it to memory. So whenJesus calls his disciples to

(26:07):
follow Him, they were coming. Alot of them, James and John,
Peter and Andrew Philip, out ofa background of having spent
most of their teenage yearscommitting the Bible to memory.
So that says to me, if you wantGod to use you, the way you
prepare yourself is bycommitting as much of the
scripture to memory as you can,because it's through that your

(26:29):
thoughts are reformed. It'sthrough that your mind is
cleansed and purified. It'sthrough that that you learn the
character and nature of God, thepromises of God, and it prepares
you to step into whatever Godhas for you next, it

Dave Leake (26:41):
also allows maybe you said this, but I'll say it
in a different way than if youalready did, but I think it also
teaches you to understand howGod sounds and to differentiate
how God sounds from how I maybesound

Jeff Leake (26:53):
want him to sound or feel at a particular moment,
Yeah, or like for

Dave Leake (26:57):
me, my biggest thing was I thought that when I would
hear God often, he soundedcritical and harsh and
disappointed in me when I wasyounger, like, for failing or
for sinning, and he's like,almost like, that's, I can't
believe you, you know, like,like, grow up kind of a thing.
And then you read the Bible andit's like, oh, that doesn't

(27:18):
really sound like how God talksthough, you know, and I started
to realize, like, oh, like,like, the Holy Spirit is, you
know, our encourager andstrengthen strengthener. If you
could say that our comforter, hebuilds us, and he brings
conviction of sin. Like, this iswrong. You got to stop this, but
not condemnation. Like, youknow, you suck and I'm

(27:39):
disappointed in you, and howcould you, and you're never
gonna get better than this. And,like, those are the kind of
things I think when you read theWord of God, you start to hear
how the voice of God sounds,which makes a massive
difference. Yeah, like, our viewof God impacts everything. If we
see God wrongly, it's hard torelate to him, but he is a
certain way, and he describeshimself pretty well, yeah, in

(28:02):
the Word of God. So,

Jeff Leake (28:04):
okay, so mature Christian, marks of a mature
Christian. Where are we?

Dave Leake (28:07):
Prayer life, okay, Bible time in the Word. I guess
there's two that I think maybe Ishould have gotten two or three.
Well, let's just, yeah, let'sjust start with these two that
are probably right at thebeginning. We're going out of
order here. But obviously itstarts with actual repentance
and surrender. Okay, you know,yeah, meaning it's not, I think

(28:28):
salvation and following Jesusstarts at the point of not just
believing in God. It starts atthe point of saying, I'm gonna
stop sinning. I'm repenting, I'mgonna follow Jesus, and you can
have control of my decisions, mydefinitions of what's right and
wrong for me and for the world.
It's a surrender moment. I thinkrepentance is the first part,
because you're not a matureChristian if you haven't

(28:48):
repented and surrendered, right?
Well, we agree with that. Yeah,that's one of the basic ABCs I
would say, yeah.

Jeff Leake (28:55):
So this sounds like a lot already, yeah. How is
anyone talking about maturity?
Yeah, no, but really, basically,what it is is you start on a
journey from the moment youdecide to follow Christ, where
you're now going to allow him totake your life and turn it
inside out. Yeah, you're goingto get exposed all the things
that don't align with hisattitudes or his thoughts or his
ways. You're going to surrenderthose things to him on a daily

(29:16):
basis. You're going to press inthrough prayer, worship, the
word into time, in His presenceand in that he's going to begin
to transform you. It's importantto understand it from that point
of view, because this is notthings you perform for God,
agreed, this is actually arelationship you develop with
God which brings transformationto your inner life and to your
entire life, right? And so it'shim doing something in and

(29:41):
through you as you open yourlife to him. It's true because,
because you can, you know,Legalism, which we would define
as trying to perform somethingfor God by obeying certain rules
and religious procedures, nevergets you to the place of
transformation. Nor do you getintimacy with God. And a lot of
times, what gets substitutedwhen we start to talk about

(30:03):
maturity is do this, pray andread the Bible and go to church
and tithe and repent andsurrender. And it starts to feel
like this list, ah, like, howwill ever get there? So it
starts with what you're saying,Dave, repentance and surrender,
and then the pursuit of God in alove relationship, yeah, and
it's the Holy Spirit at workwithin you, and it's the word
that begins to work within you,that starts to change you, so

(30:26):
that you start to more and moreresemble the character and
nature of Jesus and less andless your old life. And that is
the journey. And it's so easy tosubstitute a legalistic,
religious approach from thetransformational, Relational
Approach, if we're not careful.

Dave Leake (30:44):
Well, I think what gets substituted more than
either of those is an add ontype of Christianity. So even
like the idea like, oh, thatsounds like a lot, well, I think
sometimes when people feel likesomething sounds like a lot,
it's because the expectation isI change my beliefs and I change
my schedule where I'm going tochurch now, so I believe in
Jesus, I'm going to church.
Isn't that what being Christianis? And,

Jeff Leake (31:08):
well, that's not an add on. That's a dumbed down
version, right? It's a

Dave Leake (31:12):
well, I mean, an add on to your life you're living,
you're living your life the waythat you

Jeff Leake (31:16):
already meaning that I'm doing me, you do you and
slap a Jesus sticker on, yeah,yeah. It's

Dave Leake (31:24):
like, it's like becoming a Steelers fan, like,
Oh, yeah. And I watch theSteelers on Sunday, and I watch

Jeff Leake (31:29):
shows, and every once in, yeah,

Dave Leake (31:32):
yeah, exactly, okay, try not to get drunk before

Jeff Leake (31:36):
we belittle that too much. Though. I think a lot of
times for brand new believers.
It starts there, yes, like, it'ssort of like I just stumbled
into this whole new world, and Ididn't even know there was such
a thing as I don't know God wasthis good, and I know Jesus died
for me this way. And look atthese amazing verses in the
Bible, and there's a wholeChristian culture out there. I
actually belong to. Some of thisis so cool. I've been listening
to this, and it almost feels, insome ways, like a new believer

(31:58):
can think that all of that isChristianity, just simply
because you haven't, you haven'trealized the depth and breadth
of what it is to follow Jesusyet. So if you get stuck in the
I go to Christmas on Easter andwe have the manger scene, and
now we read the Bible before weopen Christmas presents. Like,
okay, there is, there arecertain practices that are

(32:20):
really entry level, basic to theChristian community, the
trappings of it, that we cansubstitute some of that for real
Christianity, which, if you getinto the Gospels, I mean, and
you really look at the historyof the disciples, they ended up
laying their lives down, likethey centered their entire world

(32:41):
around Jesus, and they gotpersecuted for it, and they died
for it and Okay, so somewherebetween I'm listening to a new
stream on Spotify and I'm dyingfor Jesus, that that's what
we're talking about. That's the

Dave Leake (32:57):
spectrum of things.
Okay, so again, we're talkingabout marks of maturity. If
somebody is newer to yourChristian, is newer to your
Christian faith, this does nothave to be where you start,
because it's not where anybodystarts, right, right? But we're
talking about marks of maturity,I think even the word so we talk
about being a Christian, whichmeans a disciple of Jesus. The
word disciple really meansapprentice, and you only become

(33:18):
an apprentice if you're tryingto become a certain thing, yeah,
you become an apprenticeplumber, if you want to be a
plumber, and if you want to bean apprentice of Jesus, you're
trying to become like Jesus,right? Like, actually, you are
something. It's not that likeyou believe something or you're
a fan of something, it's thatyou become something. Yeah,
that's really what it means,yeah. And, you know, sometimes

Jeff Leake (33:39):
you hear a podcast like this, where we're giving
you a lot of practices, and itfeels, you can almost feel
pressured by it, but it's that'swhere it started for me. Like my
youth pastor said, you're afollower of Jesus now you need
to pray. Yeah. And he gave me apattern to pray, and I did that,
and I failed at it, and then Igot better at it. Another thing
he said is, you need to startreading your Bible. And I was
like, when do I do that? And hewas like, well, bring your Bible

(34:01):
with you to school, and thenwhen you have, like, study hall,
if you have extra time, justopen it up and read it. Yeah. So
I remember number one, that wasthat was mature, because I was
outing myself in front of myfriends, because I brought a
Bible and put it on my desk atschool. Okay, that was big. That
was actually bold. Then Iremember completing my homework
and study hall and popping thatBible open. And I remember the

(34:24):
very first time ever reading thebook of Philippians. I was a
sophomore in high school, and Iwas reading through the book,
and I remember feeling like thebook was on fire, like every
word was like speaking to myheart. And I was like, this is
the best thing I've ever read.
And so the you should read yourBible, translated into, I can't
wait to read my Bible. Yeah,right. It went from a I really

(34:46):
this is the disciplines andpractices. I think maybe one of
the mature signs of maturity isyou have left the should do
this, and you've entered into.
It. Oh, I am so in love withthis.

Dave Leake (35:02):
Well, that's kind of the, one of the marks of
maturity for teenager when itcomes to hygiene, right? Like,
like, for a teenage boy, no,like, think about it, a teenage
boy, like, they're like, Youneed to brush your teeth. Should
shower. I should brush my teeth.
And as a, as somebody who's aformer youth pastor, when
there's a seventh grade boy, itstill should, yes, I want to do
those things now, don't you?

(35:22):
Like, I don't want to notshower. It's disgusting, it
feels nasty, and you can barelywake up in the morning if I
haven't showered. I thinkthere's a similar level of when
you become a mature Christian.
It's not a should anymore. It'slike, I really need to do this
like, so I know we keep talkingabout like, pressure. Look there
to grow in anything you need.

(35:43):
You need pressure to grow inanything. You need challenges.
If you want to become a maturefollower of Jesus, you're
probably going to have to pursueGod harder and further. And
that's what made this. Wait.
Hold on, don't, don't dismissthat. That's what dismiss.
That's what you always think I'mdismissed. You always you don't
like whenever I add too muchpressure, but pressure you need
something like add to that. Areyou ready? Yes, please.

Jeff Leake (36:06):
So I am just getting ready to turn 61 years old, and
I know I have to take bettercare of myself from a health
perspective, because nothingworks the same. So I just sat
down with a doctor and afunctional medicine, and I paid
him a fee for him to assess myblood tests and other things.
And he just drilled me like hewas, like, I can tell you why

(36:28):
you have this problem and thisproblem and this problem. You're
eating this and you're eatingthat. You're not exercising
here, and you need to do thisand do that like he he just, I
mean, he was unfiltered and upin my face, but since he has
done that, I've changed my habitlike I'm three days in. So don't
celebrate me too much, but, butI know I have to drop weight,

(36:50):
and I know I have to change myeating patterns, and part of the
reason why I'm reacting soaggressively is because he
didn't sugarcoat it like heslapped me upside the head, like
he was, like, you're, you wantto live like, that was this. So
you can't, you're gonna, you'regonna develop these issues in

(37:11):
your body if you don't do thesethings right here. Like, okay,
yeah, you caught my attention.
So in some ways, I guess you doneed truth. Like some like, you
cannot live years of yourChristian life and not develop a
habit of prayer and Biblereading. Yeah, right.

Dave Leake (37:26):
That's not even a satisfying, like level. So
there's a big differencebetween, like, religious
attitudes and Pharisaical. Iknow what you said earlier. You
said a good word where there'sjust like, pressure, pressure to
have a performance basedrelationship with God. That's
not good. But like the pursuitof Jesus is, and I give you

(37:49):
everything, all out my wholelife, everything I have is
oriented this direction kind ofa thing. And it's best when it's
like that, and without that, youdon't experience the fullness.
Okay, so repentance is one ofthe marks. That's probably the
first one

Jeff Leake (38:02):
that we have repentance and surrender prayer
and time with God, and in HisWord, to be able to develop
relationships

Dave Leake (38:08):
is also okay, let's, I was saying there's a few
basics that we maybe skippedover, repentance and salvation
immediately followed by waterbaptism. Okay, water baptism is,
is kind of the so we're justtalking about Mark.

Jeff Leake (38:21):
That's not That's every time you say Marx I think
Marxism of a Mark. Mark, yeah.
Mark,

Dave Leake (38:29):
yeah, exactly

Jeff Leake (38:30):
that. So water baptism isn't a sign of
maturity. That's the sign. Iguess this is one of the things
you

Dave Leake (38:36):
haven't gotten water baptized. You need to, because
that's a part of

Jeff Leake (38:40):
what it means. So where I was going to end up,
Dave, is the word obedience?
Yeah, okay, okay, so that'sgood. So love for God is part of
it, repentance from your past ispart of it. Surrender to God.
Okay, then, but obedience towhat God is asking you to do,
that's good. Water baptism isthe very first thing you're
asked to do. It's the inductionceremony into following Jesus.

(39:01):
It's the first so you pray togive your life to Christ, and
the very first thing you do isyou tell the whole world, I now
belong to Jesus. I've died to mypast. I'm living to him. I
belong to the family of God,which is the church, the multi
ethnic, multi generationalmovement of Jesus Christ around
the world I'm in, I'm all in.

(39:23):
It's like a coming out ceremony.
I'm a follower of Jesus, right?
And that's where it all starts,right? There. And actually, the
launch process, even for Jesusinto his future, started with
his water baptism, even thoughhe didn't have to repent of sin,
right? He modeled for us thatthis is the first step of
obedience. But then obediencedoesn't stop with water baptism.

(39:43):
It begins with then you begin todiscover all the other things
he's asking you to do. Stewardyour time, well, Steward your
money. Well, Steward yourgifting. Well, follow the
commandments. Okay, now here,here's, here's an important
thing. There are certainchallenges that are given. To us
in the New Testament that arenot commandments that earn God's
love. They're more challenges toalign with the character of

(40:07):
Christ. So like when he says,Love your enemies, do good to
those who who hurt you. Right?
That is not commandments like Ido this in order to cross check
a box and say, God loves me. NowI do this because this is the
challenge of what it is tobecome like Christ, to live the
Christ like life. So obedienceto the Christ like challenges of
the New Testament, right to fleeyouthful lusts and to, you know,

(40:30):
to live in love and those kindsof things. So obedience would be
another, another factor.

Dave Leake (40:38):
So, but obedience, water baptism is kind of one of
the beginning it is. It's notour first optional thing.
Honestly, when people get savedin the New Testament, they get
saved and then like that day,pretty much,

Jeff Leake (40:49):
yeah. Well, I think the reason why so many people
see it as optional is becausemost people, at least in the
Pittsburgh area, who were raisedin some type of a traditional
environment, got baptized as ababy, and they almost just
assume that's not necessary forme, because I already did that
and and so it's again,dedicating a child to God, which

(41:10):
is what we would see thatinitial moment, parents making
the choice, praying over thechild, that that is a wonderful
thing, but It doesn't, isn't asubstitute for you, the new
follower Jesus, making your ownchoice to do baptism according
to what we read in the NewTestament, which is to get down
into the water and to be dunkedunder the water as a symbol that

(41:33):
your old life is buried in yournew life. You're stepping into
your new life in Christ. So Ialways say baptism as an adult
is if you were baptized as achild, just a confirmation of
what your parents wanted foryou, but it's you owning it,
right?

Dave Leake (41:49):
And the other thing too, I think it doesn't always
happen, because when you speakabout it with casual language,
as if it's just a symbol,because it's more than just a
symbol. What would you say, Iwould say baptism is a spiritual
act. So when you, if somethingis just a symbol,

Jeff Leake (42:07):
a spiritual act that symbolizes something,

Dave Leake (42:09):
yeah, but when, when you go down under the water and
you come back up, there'sactually an activation of
something that happens in thespiritual realm. I mean, it's
talked about with the level ofsacredness that's beyond just a
picture. Whether or not I wearmy wedding ring, I'm still
married, but I wear this as asymbol, and it's great. Baptism
is more significant than Iguess. It's almost like the act

(42:32):
of putting on the ring for thefirst time. In a sense, it's
like, it's like a and when youdo that, it's a part of the
marriage ceremony. I don't thinkbaptism is necessary to get
saved, but it is a necessarypart of the obedience of
following Jesus. It's a non

Jeff Leake (42:47):
optional. Okay, let's review. So if you're
mature, you've repented of yourpast, and you're reformatting
your mind according to God'sword. You've surrendered your
life to Jesus, and you've saidyes in advance to what he wants
for you. You're spending timeevery day in his presence
through the process we justdescribed, you have taken the
step of being baptized in thewater as your first step to

(43:08):
wanting to live a fully obedientlife good.

Dave Leake (43:12):
Got more. I got plenty more. I could keep going.
I don't think I actually haveplenty more, but I have a few
more that feel like keys. Iwould say that you are
stewarding your possessions forGod's purposes, meaning so
tithing for one and giving ofyour your resources time. And

(43:34):
you know,

Jeff Leake (43:35):
you know that maturity is really hitting you
when your obedience has nowaffected your money. Yes, if,
if, if you're if your level ofsurrender in life has only hit
aspects, the non monetaryaspects of your life, then it
hasn't really affected every,every area

Dave Leake (43:58):
it hasn't right or within the most delicate areas.
You know what I'm saying

Jeff Leake (44:02):
at some point, because Jesus says the biggest
competitor for the throne ofyour life often, is Money.
Money. Yeah, right, the love ofmoney. And so the part of full
surrender is eventually say, andmy money too,

Dave Leake (44:18):
right? Yep, that's good. And we could do a fuller
episode on the tithe at some

Jeff Leake (44:23):
point, I do think, though Dave, love God, love one
another, love your enemies, loveyour neighbor. Okay, so first
Corinthians, Paul says,Knowledge puffs up, but love
edifies. One of the underratedqualities of maturity is that
you've become a more lovinghuman being. It's good, right?

(44:45):
And so you can't really be afully devoted follower of Jesus
and neglect the church. Okay? Soa mature Christian is in engaged
in his local church, absolutely,because this is one, been one of
the things. Things that's atrend in today's world, is the
I'm a Christian, but I don'treally like the church, but you
can't really do that becausewe're part of the body of

(45:08):
Christ. Jesus is the head. Youcan't divorce yourself from the
rest of the body and befollowing the head, right? You
can't be like, I'm gonna be ahand or a finger or a toe over
here, and I'm gonna let the restof the body do its thing. So
you're embedded in the body ofChrist. You're forgiving those
that are hurting you. You'remature enough to handle offense
and to love people who seem tobe against you. You're going out

(45:31):
of your way to care for yourbrothers and sisters in Christ,
let's love one another. Whatdoes it say in First Corinthians
12, you weep with those whoweep. You rejoice with those who
rejoice. I think you have to bein some kind of so I'm not just
talking about this, the formatof this, but a small group of
people that you are in atransparent, accountable,

(45:58):
regular, deepening fellowshipwith people that they know you
and you know them, and you'repraying for them. They're
praying for you, and you'reserving with one another and
praying for each other like you.
Eventually, you can't really bemature in Christ unless you have
relationships not just with Godbut with other believers. That
means being in a local churchand being in some kind of small

(46:20):
group of people that know youand that you know them, and that
you are serving with, and, youknow, kind of investing

Dave Leake (46:29):
in, I've noticed that I don't say this the right
way, but I've noticed thatpeople that tend to be in
transition seasons from sort ofone era to a next era, often
have a hard time With this one,because that feels like a big
time commitment.

Jeff Leake (46:43):
Well, yeah, so if you add all this together,
you're like, what you want mywhole life, yeah. And
technically, we don't want yourwhole life. That's not our job
to take over your life. ButJesus does like, so, yes, like,
there is. That's where it allstarts. It all starts with
saying, Jesus, you gave yourlife for me, and in exchange,
I'm gonna give my life for you.
So to be a mature Christianmeans that you're in it with

(47:07):
your whole life. Yeah, not everymoment, ever every day. I mean,
we do other stuff. It's not likebecoming a follower of Jesus
like i i love the Steelers andnot I watch them and I mean, I
have other past times

Dave Leake (47:22):
that baby version, he was holding that Chelsea
sign. There we

Jeff Leake (47:25):
go. That's right. So fingers like, you know you, you
guys are what big into the nextphase of Mario Kart through the
switch. Yeah. So there's nothingwrong with having a life like
God wants you to enjoy yourself.
But when you come to Jesus andyou say, I want to, I want to
follow you with everything in mybeing. You can't dictate to him
how it works. You have to bewilling to say, I'm all in. I'm

(47:49):
going to go all in with this. Sotechnically, I think living a
life on your own terms is like awithering flower, living life on
God's terms, even though it'sway more demanding, is like a
blooming garden, right? You cantry to do it your way, and
you'll find that that way islacking the fullness and

(48:12):
flourishing that comes withbeing fully engaged in following
Christ, yes, by the way, can youtake us back to the Craig
Groeschel. What are the fourCraig Groeschel? We we've added
a bunch to to list, and probablyhe summarizes a little bit
better,

Dave Leake (48:28):
right? I'm looking for it, and I I'm not finding
what he has. I'm fine. So, soyou gave us a tease, and then
you didn't, yeah, all enough totry to find it better I have.
I'm not sure if these are his.
So respond to salvation,publicly, follows through with
baptism, engages relationally,serves in ministry. Lives
generate generously, integratesspiritually, shows deeper

(48:51):
commitment that's in both, yeah,

Jeff Leake (48:55):
shows that the four, those are six, I'm not sure, say
those again. So,

Dave Leake (49:00):
salvation, baptism, it says, engages relationally.
So like small groups, Biblestudies, serves in ministry,
lives generously, integratesspiritually, or growing
spiritually, I think was how Ihad heard it another time. So
through personal, spiritualdisciplines, okay? And then so I
have two more that are on mymind. I think we've talked about

(49:23):
a lot of these already, but twomore that are on my mind as
marks of mature believers. Thisone is going to be very much
based on my tradition. But Ithink mature Christians, I think
you can be a very mature personand not a fully mature
Christian. Do we agree thatthat's possible? I realize they
contribute, but somebody couldbe a very mature person, and
there's still areas they'regoing in that's all right, I

(49:44):
think baptism in the Holy Spiritis a mark of a mature Christian.
I think,

Jeff Leake (49:49):
let me broaden that.
I think baptism in the HolySpirit with the expectation of
living an adventurous,missional, supernatural

Dave Leake (49:55):
life, an evangelistic, yeah, supernatural
life, which the baptism.

Jeff Leake (50:00):
In the Holy Spirit is not just to make you better
at prayer or closer to God. It'sto empower you to go out and to
preach the gospel, meaning oneon one or in other, aggressive
missional ways, and to believefor the proof of the
resurrection to show up, becausewe're seeing the signs, same

(50:20):
signs that followed thebeliever, the disciples in the
book of Acts. Happening for

Dave Leake (50:24):
us, by the way, this is all what the Allison bark
Leadership Academy is about, ishelping develop mature
Christians in all these facets.
But we have a particular focuson helping people to step out
into the book of Acts lifestyle.
We pray for the sick and seethem heal.

Jeff Leake (50:37):
I feel like we need chat. GBT to give us a an
acrostic for this matureChristian come along, should we?
Should we type it in? We canwork on it. You can

Unknown (50:45):
try it if you want to give us anything good. But I
mean, if we could consolidatethis,

Jeff Leake (50:50):
these were five things we mentioned,

Unknown (50:54):
it'd be helpful, yeah, it would be

Dave Leake (50:56):
helpful. I agree, yeah, I agree. And then I think
you just said there's a lastone. I had my mind, but I guess
it's what you just said, wouldbe like missional living, yeah,
so I think it's, it's focus,

Jeff Leake (51:08):
because that's the other side of this. So great
commandment, love God, love yourneighbor. Great Commission, go
and preach the gospel to everynation on Earth. Right? Make
disciples, right? Of everynation, baptizing them in the
name of the Father Son and HolySpirit and teaching them to obey
everything I've commanded youso. Rick Warren wrote the book

(51:28):
Purpose Driven Life, which talksabout the five purposes that God
has for us. You could, in someways, start with that grid, the
five purposes that God has forus, right? And that that would
be one way of beginning theprocess. Yeah, are you working
on the acrostic?

Dave Leake (51:46):
Dave, I'm just working on typing out what we
already said. I have repentance,surrender, baptism, prayer in
the word generosity,

Jeff Leake (51:54):
baptism in the Holy Spirit. Yeah, missional, living.

Dave Leake (52:01):
And I would say this, I whether or not this is a
mark of mature Christian. Ithink every Christian that has
the ability should go on aforeign missions trip. I think,
I think if somebody's been aChristian for a long time,
you've never been out of thecountry go on a missions trip.
It's life

Jeff Leake (52:16):
changing. It's probably not the sign of
maturity. No, I agree. It'smaybe the activation of it in
your

Dave Leake (52:21):
life? No, there's but there. So, yes, there is
need. Yes, we can reach peoplehere in our own community, in
our own country. But the greatcommission talks about, you
know, in Acts, what is it one,five, or he says, or is that
eight? Or he says, You'll be mywitnesses in Jerusalem Judea
Samaria to the end of the earth.
It's like an expanding context,Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, ends
of the earth. We're all calledfor that, and I think we should

(52:44):
all have a hand at some point.
If we're able to go somewhereand to share the gospel, that's
a huge thing. It changed my liferadically, you know, and I
realize it's a big step. It's afinancial commitment, it's a
time commitment. Sometimespeople have fear Flying Or Going
somewhere else across the world,but it's life changing. So

Jeff Leake (53:05):
you know, the one thing that's in my head right
now, Dave is that I don't wantso the best summary versions of
this challenge to live for Jesusis found in the words of Jesus,
right? He reduced everythingdown to love rather. That's like
his biggest challenge, love,God, love, love people. Love the

(53:27):
lost, whatever it happens to be.
But I think there is anotherthing that's in my head, which
is that I think for any of thesethings to happen, there's this
word that it's in my mind rightnow. It's the word initiative.
Like, no one's going to do thisfor you. You actually have to do
this. Like you could have beenlistening to this episode and
you're thinking to yourself,well, that's a whole lot. Where

(53:48):
do I even begin? It doesn'treally matter where you begin.
It just matters that you beginand you have to take no pastor
is going to do this for you. Noparents going to do this for
you. No mentor is going to dothis for you. At some point, you
have to take the initiative tosay, I am going to change this
about myself, and I'm going tobegin to follow Jesus by taking

(54:08):
whatever Step. Go on a missionstrip, go to the school, begin a
Bible reading plan, start tohave my packed prayer, prayer
time. Join a small group. What'sgood? That's you got to start
somewhere. Yeah, don't startwith everything, but start
somewhere and and take theinitiative to move the needle.
Do you want get

Dave Leake (54:29):
baptized that chat gave me? Yeah, go ahead. About,
how about this one rebirth?
Okay, this is what, this is whatchat GPT has. By the way, my
wife would hate that we're doingthis right now. She is. She's
like, anti robots and,

Jeff Leake (54:44):
oh, yeah, so she's not, not good with AI, don't,

Dave Leake (54:47):
don't connect the sacred with robots. All right,
here's, here's what, uh, here'swhat. Rebirth is, repentance,
empowered by the Spirit,baptism, intimacy with God,
which is as parentheses, prayerand Word. Okay, wait, slow down.
So rebirth, repentance is R,what's? E, empowered by the
Spirit, powered by the Spirit.
K, baptism, baptism, waterbaptism, intimacy with God. That

(55:08):
prayer and Bible, that's good,yeah, radical surrender, okay,
very good. Tithing andgenerosity. K, heart for the
mission. Not bad. It's not toobad. So, yeah, anyway, I'm not
sure that it's great, but youknow, hey, it's a good start. We
could make it a little beadbracelet, like they used to do

(55:28):
talking about, we'll make it awhat, six part series. Yeah,
make it a six part series. Putit in some kids sashes and stuff
like that. Go back to a good old90s Christian Andy. Anything you
want to add to this as we close?

Jeff Leake (55:45):
No. I mean, I would just say, Okay, let's play our
roles in the world here. Dave,you can do this, right? I'm the
guy that wants to say, don't beoverwhelmed by this. And then
you're going to say, come on.
But you need to do it, right?
Yeah. I

Dave Leake (56:00):
think people are kind of expecting us to go
there. They're like, all right,say your line. So yeah, I think
in general, the life offollowing God is a lot, but it's
worth it. We talked the last,one of the last episodes about
heavenly rewards and how there'sa limited time we have here to

(56:20):
do what we got to do. And notonly does following Jesus give
us the best life here and now,but it also is the only
meaningful way to live a life.
So yes, it requires sacrifice,and there are so many
competitive things that aren'tbad, like our, you know,
programs and school and careeraspirations and all this other

(56:40):
stuff. And those things aren'tbad, but I think for me, what I
want to commit to is orderingand prioritizing my life, where
the non negotiables start withfollowing Christ and then the
rest have to figure out how tofit in and not the opposite.

Jeff Leake (56:56):
Yeah, I guess what I feel good about there's a couple
of things. One, I feel good thatwhen you were 11, I gave you a
prayer pattern. And I thinkthat's one of the things that
everybody needs in theirjourney, is they need somebody
who's standing beside them togive them the right prompts at
the right time. So like my youthpastor after I got saved, gave
me the right prompts. Hey, youshould read the Bible, you
should pray. And maybe you don'thave that in your life right

(57:18):
now, maybe that's what thispodcast is for you. I wish I
could be standing by your sidein your early stages of faith
and be personalizing it to you.
For some of you, I am yourpastor. Maybe I have said these
things to you, but if you don'thave anybody in your life who's
talking that way to you, buthopefully this podcast is that
for you. And if you're a pastoror a leader and you're listening
to this, maybe we're remindingyou of some things that you've

(57:43):
let and grow dormant in your inyour spiritual walk, or maybe
we're activating some thingsthat you need to speak into the
life of other people becauseyou've gotten too programmatic
in your approach todiscipleship, and you need to
help people get back into therebirth mode of life, but yeah,
there's nothing quite likehaving the gift of somebody in

(58:04):
your life to tell you in aloving yet challenging way. It's
time to step up. Yeah. Andhere's how follow me, because
I'm doing this. And all of thesethings that we just described
are things that we're personallytrying to be like, This is not
you do this. We're saying, Yeah,let's all follow Jesus together.

Dave Leake (58:24):
I love it. Love it.
Well, we also love the fact thatyou're listening to this again,
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(58:47):
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hope you enjoyed this episode.

(59:07):
We'll see you guys again nexttime you.