Is Church for God or for People? Exploring the Real Purpose of the Church

Are church services meant to honor God, serve people, or both? 

In this episode, we explore the real purpose of the church, confronting the tension between pleasing God and meeting the needs of attendees. 

Join us as we dive into worship, church leadership, and practical strategies for balancing spiritual priorities—perfect for pastors or anyone curious about the true calling of the church.

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
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Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
So today I want to talk about the question, Who is

(00:03):
church for when we talk about aweekend service for a church? So
there's this whole, whole factorof people that we're focusing
on, and then there's also, likethe hidden figure, which is then
church being for God. Okay,

Jeff Leake (00:19):
so why should people care about this question. Why
does this matter?

Dave Leake (00:24):
Hey, everybody, welcome to the Allison Park
leadership podcast, where wehave our culture creating
conversations. My name is DavidLee

Jeff Leake (00:31):
and my name is Jeff, and of course, we're father and
son. I'm the pastor at AllisonPark church, and Dave is now a
church planter. Moved toJacksonville, Florida to plant
salt church. And so this is,this is our first episode since
the move. Dave, how you doinggood?

Dave Leake (00:45):
Yeah, back up here for a week to teach at APLA. And
yeah, left 73 nice degreeweather, and came to 25 I know,
and it's snowing and everythingso, but it's for a week. It's
nice to be back for a littlebit. Yeah, and yeah, next time
we record, hopefully we'll be onlike a new virtual thing where
we go back and forth, and I'llbe on my couch in Florida, and

(01:05):
he'll be here. And so, yeah,excited for this continued
process.

Jeff Leake (01:09):
So and this set that we're on right here is actually
going to be the set that melodynow are going to use for the
character based parentingpodcast, which the first episode
should be out fairly soon. Sothat's another thing that we're
doing. I know we have somepeople to shout out, right? We
haven't had this for a littlewhile, and this today, we got
four Yes. Come on

Dave Leake (01:28):
so quick. Shout outs. Thank you to Nikki, 1016,
Karen p4 444, trellis, 66, andthen Susie hellblink, thank you
for your kind words.

Jeff Leake (01:37):
Yes. Thank you so much. And anytime that you
subscribe or leave us a like ora comment or five star review
like this, it helps spread theword, so we appreciate you doing
that. And as we say, Thispodcast is culture creating
conversations. And so last timewe talked about parenting and

(02:00):
spanking and biblical guidelinesfor things like that. What is
our what is our culture creatingconversation for today? Okay,
this is a surprise. You haven'teven told me. No, I've told you,
but I didn't tell you which oneI picked. Okay, okay, yeah,
people would be surprised toknow that sometimes. So you
prep. But I think this worksbetter when, when I'm reacting

(02:22):
to what you've prepared. Sure,sometimes I prepare a little
bit, but yeah, today we're justgoing for it. So

Dave Leake (02:27):
okay, yeah. So today I want to talk about the
question, Who is church for?
Okay, all right, so let me framethis when we talk about a
weekend service for a church, Irealized that there's a there's
a multiple, layered targetaudience, if you will. Like,

(02:49):
there's not just like one grouppeople that church is for. For
the weekends, we're havingpeople that have never been to
church ever in their lives, withpeople that are from other
countries, that are fromdifferent cultures. We have
people that have been believersfor a month or a week, or
sometimes for 3540 more years.
So there's this whole, wholefactor of people that we're

(03:12):
focusing on. Some of them aremembers. Some of them are just
attending. They're going todifferent churches. And then
there's also, like the hiddenfigure, which I want to talk
about more, which is then churchbeing for God, which sounds
weird, but I'm just talkingabout when we're talking about,
who is church for? Our meetingsare, yeah, we're not, not, not

(03:33):
the capital C church in general.
Meet when, weekend services.

Jeff Leake (03:36):
Okay, so why should people care about this question?
Because, because that this seemsvery theoretic. So if someone's
listening to this podcast on aregular basis, what, why is this
matter?

Dave Leake (03:48):
So I will, let's okay. Let me get into this. All
right. So I'm focusing right nowon getting ready to launch a
church in a little less than ayear. Okay? And I had a dream
that kind of was like a burdenfrom God dream. You know, you've
had those, like you talked aboutthe one with the tiger and the

(04:10):
baby itself, and so that's wherethis comes from. Okay, I've been
thinking about this a lot. Herewas the dream. The dream was
that I was, I was in like, aworship setting, like, and I
don't know, like, I guess so itzoomed in, and I think it was at
the service, whatever. Andthere's a worship leader that as

(04:30):
a ghost by the name of JohnWilds. He's on, like, a lot of
like, he's on up room and Betheland Jesus image, you would, you
would maybe know him. You sawhim, or heard his voice, and he
was singing a song. I don'tthink it's a real song, like
I've never heard the songbefore. I don't know the lyrics
either now, but I know the thegeneral part of the song. He was
singing this song, and he waslike, it was a song where, at
this part, he was repenting forbeing so focused on guests that

(04:58):
he was neglecting or we were.
Collecting to focus on God, thatthat was in the song. That was
in the song, okay? So it's, Idon't think it's right. I'm
coming back to the heart ofworship, kind of that spirit. It
was sort of that, because it'sall about you, yes, yes, but,
but that song is sort of like,I'm not going to just get caught
in the motions of church, yeah.

(05:18):
And let's focus on the heart ofworship, which is on God, this
was more of a is

Jeff Leake (05:24):
this John Wilde's kind of a theme? I

Dave Leake (05:27):
don't think so. He was just in the dream. And then
after, after that was over,John, if you're hearing this
podcast, you need to call DavidLee happy wild literally, yeah,
no, but yeah, that. So thedream, you know, went from
there, and then I was having aconversation about this, you
know, this worship service withsome friends, and then the dream
ended, and I woke up, and I juststarted to feel sort of this

(05:50):
burden, like I should be prayingabout this. And so from that, it
sort of sparked this questionfor me that I think is worth
playing out. I'll say this. Idon't have a full stance or
answer, but it's a question thatI don't think I've asked or
heard asked a whole lot, that Ithink is worth exploring. And I

(06:13):
think it's for more than justfor leaders. I think it's for
our

Jeff Leake (06:16):
church. So when you come to church, who is it for?
So let's when you design aservice, who are you designing
it for? Yeah,

Dave Leake (06:25):
so So us as a church, whether you're Allison
Park church, or in the future,you're gonna be part of salt
church, or you part of adifferent church altogether. And
we're talking about who theservice the weekend services are
targeted at. And I know theanswer is more than one answer,
yeah, but I'm saying the primaryfocus

Jeff Leake (06:45):
so, right? So one of the things we've talked about
often is that some people go tochurch like a consumer, and they
think this is for me, right? Andso they evaluate everything,
like, did the sermon that I did?
Like? Did I like it? Did I enjoyit was helpful to me? Was the
worship? Did I prefer thosesongs? Would that make me feel
connected like so if you thinkof it just as a consumer, you're
coming in and saying, how wouldI rate this, this experience on

(07:08):
a scale of one to five, based onwhether or not it made me feel
motivated, inspired and andchallenged? Okay? So, and
obviously we know that's notproper, right? Because if you're
going to church as a consumer,then you end up with a consumer
version of Christianity, sure.
So, so, so, but you're talkingsomething beyond, yeah,

Dave Leake (07:31):
okay, so, so let me, let me break down how I think I
see it. So when we talk about,okay, now for for the average
person that's not in ministryleadership, right now this, this
is probably like talkingministry strategy, but I think
it's broader than just that.
Well, let's start here, whenwe're talking about how we how
we design services, or thepurpose or our why, I think a
very, very common way to designa service is a service is for

(07:55):
the guest. It's for theunbeliever. And we would even
like, we've talked about thisover the years, so it's like
there are certain things thatwe're going to reserve for
believers only rooms, but we aredesigning our services with the
unchurched or the unbeliever orthe curious or the spiritually
sensitive in mind. Doesn't meanthat it's just for them. It's
obviously for much more thanjust them, right? But like,

(08:17):
there are certain things that weare specifically doing because
we want to make sure we're readyfor them. And that's not, I
don't think it's a bad thing.
I'm not coming against thatright? Then there are some
churches that I think are verybelievers focused, and their
services are like, Hey, listen,you know, we love guests. We
want you to be a part of this,but we're going to go really,

(08:40):
really deep and meaty on ourteachings, because we're all
about understanding the depthsof God's Word. We want to be
growing. And I think again,these are purposes that they
overlap for churches in general,okay, but it's like a believer

Jeff Leake (08:53):
story, or you find a church that's not going deep in
terms of teaching, but they'rehaving more expressive and
lengthier encounters with God,yeah, like long times of
worship, and maybe times aroundthe altar. Maybe there's gifts
of the Holy Spirit that areoperating that might feel
awkward or weird to someonewho's a guest, but it really

(09:16):
isn't for them. It's for thepeople that have come for that
experience.

Dave Leake (09:18):
That's right, okay, so, and then there's then
there's some churches are

Jeff Leake (09:22):
built to suit the taste of their more prominent
givers or their longtimemembers. And so it becomes a
sort of a traditional approachthat you don't change anything
because you don't want anybodybe mad, right? Exactly. And then
there's the whole bill hybridsmovement, which was a seeker
driven Church, which was makethe church to be like the

(09:45):
slickest performance that youcan find, that would rival going
to the theater downtown, right,and in the context of bringing
your guests to a great musical,dramatic, motivational talk.
Right? You would then be able topresent the gospel to them so
that they could, they could getsaved Exactly. So we've just

(10:07):
named this full spectrum ofoptions. And, okay, all churches
are designing services, right?
No doubt. And there's and youprobably have a you're listening
to this podcast, you probablyhave a preference, sure, like,
you're like, Well, I prefer Ilike a church that goes like in
the Word, or I like a churchthat has more longer
experiential worship, or I likea church that is guest friendly,
or that it really focuses onfellows, yeah, or that is more
traditional liturgical thatfollows, you know, a liturgy

(10:30):
that's been going back forhundreds of years, which I
understand is very attractive,traditional to a lot of young
people right now. So, yes, goahead.

Dave Leake (10:41):
But the question that I have, that I'm talking
about is, when we talk aboutchurch and specifically about
our weekend experiences, who isthe primary target? And I think
it's important to ask thatquestion I heard, you know, I
know we've talked about a coupletimes, Nathan finocchio was
talking about how sometimeswe're really, really, really

(11:04):
focused on unbelievers, but alot of times New Testament.
We're talked we're taught totreat believers actually a
specific way, and the church isoften like, you know, outsiders
are welcome. We want every wewant to expand the kingdom. We
want to spread the gospel. Butchurch should also be focused on
the saints and not just onpeople that are not Christian.
So he talked about that. Butthis, this dream, I felt like,

(11:27):
was oriented around thequestion, like, when it comes to
like, who this is for? Is thismostly for like? Is the main
target, the one that, the onethat wins, that gets the top
level decisions made, like,well, we got to make sure. Or is
that, is that our unbelievers?
Is it like, just the curious? Isit members? What did you feel

(11:49):
like the dream meant to you? Ifelt like what the dream meant
was that we don't talk about Godas being a target of our
services.

Jeff Leake (12:01):
So, but if it's a prophetic dream, yeah, the Holy
Spirit was saying something toyou. So what's the Holy Spirit
saying to you?

Dave Leake (12:08):
So, you know? Okay, where Jesus talks about the the
commit the great commandment,you know. He says, Love the Lord
your God with all your heart,soul and mind, strength, and the
second is like it, love yourneighbor as yourself. So there
was a book that Josh and I havebeen discussing where the
proposition in the book is,maybe the Evangelical Church,

(12:28):
the Protestant church ingeneral, has sort of said, well,
we love the Lord our God byloving our neighbor by outreach,
by services, but he's saying thepriority was always meant to be
love God first, okay, and thenlove people. But you gave me an
educational answer. Give me apersonal answer. What do you
feel like? The Holy Spirit Ifeel like. I feel like, with

(12:50):
saying to you, in the dream withthis next generation that I'm a
part of okay, and nothingagainst how things have been
done. I'm just talking aboutwhere I feel like, the what
Spirit's leading us. I thinkthat the thing that I felt
instructed on is that we need tobe a church. And when I say we,
I'm talking about my church thatI'm starting, yes, that's
focused on hosting the presenceof God. Okay, where, where the

(13:15):
order of priorities is first andforemost. How well are we doing
at hosting the presence of God,and then we have whoever comes
next after that, and it'simportant to do all those
things. I don't think it's justone or the other, but where,
where we have an order ofpriorities and so, but that

Jeff Leake (13:34):
sounds less strong than your dream. So your dream
said that John will Wilds wasrepenting for the fact that God
had not been the primaryaudience. Yes, and did you feel
like I was saying that was foryou that you're supposed to

(13:57):
repent change your mind aboutthe way that you've been
approaching things. I

Dave Leake (14:02):
felt like what God was saying was when, when you're
building this new house, like,for God, make sure you have the
priorities in order. Okay, wherewhat you're doing is considering
who the primary audience is. Idon't think I've ever like, this
is weird to say. But when, like,I realized church is all about
Jesus is all for Jesus. But whenwe're talking about services, I

(14:25):
don't think I've thought of anaudience being God as one of the
primary talk targets. Like,well, what does he think about
this? It's like, well, this is,this is, I'll give a really good
example of one of the thingsI've been wrestling through. You
know, when it comes to worshipand the theology of worship, my
understanding is, as I've beenlooking into it, more worship is

(14:46):
a ministry that's unto God. Soit's a way that we give Him
praise and it pleases Him, andso when we worship His people,
we're ministering to God bygiving Him our praise. It's a
god focused ministry the way.
Yeah, I've thought about itpreviously, in the past, is
almost as if it's a moment forpeople to connect with God and
so like, let's create anenvironment and a situation

(15:07):
where

Jeff Leake (15:09):
even the way that you described it host his
presence. That also implies anexperience.

Dave Leake (15:16):
But is the experience meant for people, or
is it meant to serve God as theperson we're inviting, like the
top person that gets the topseat? Okay, you understand what
I'm saying and so. So for me, Ithink what I've been exploring
is what does it look like when achurch does a really good job,

(15:38):
first and foremost, at focusingon hosting, the presence of God
versus what does it look likewhen we maybe are a little bit,
I don't know, I don't know ifthe word is imbalanced, but when
we have our priorities wheremaybe we're a little too focused
on hosting, let's say a guesthosting, guests over hosting
God's presence. Okay, are youokay with where this is going?

(16:01):
No,

Jeff Leake (16:01):
yeah. So I wanted to make sure that before we moved
on into my thoughts of this,that I got clear on what the
dream meant for you. Because aprophetic dream is a very
significant, sure, sure. And ifit really was a god dream, then
it's obviously something God wastrying to say to you, sure. And
so you were feeling around it,but I think we got to the core
of what you wanted to say. Yeah.
So all right, so how do you wantto proceed? I can react a little

(16:24):
bit if you want me to.

Dave Leake (16:27):
So let me do this. I wrote down some initial thoughts
on what I think the contrastlooks like. And then maybe we
can go into reacting. We candiscuss what things could look
like or should look like. Maybewe want to talk about the
biblical basis for these. Okay,that's where

Jeff Leake (16:44):
I was going to go first. Great. The big biblical
basis.

Dave Leake (16:47):
Okay, so can I just, I sort of was, was focusing on
fleshing out my thoughts on whatit looks like when there's an
imbalance. Can I talk about thatquickly? Or do you want to do
scripture first? You're

Jeff Leake (16:58):
leading this, my friend, right? So let me do
this.

Dave Leake (17:02):
Where do I have this? Okay, so here's, here's
what I have. So and by the way,for the record, I think APC does
a very good job of hosting God'spresence. This did not feel like
a

Jeff Leake (17:15):
criticism of, oh no, no, no. I'm not taking it that
way. I guess so if I have asensitivity to anything about
this, is that, you know, I'velived a long time, and I've seen
the seasons come and go, and theemphasis is shift over time,
sure. And what I have a personalobjection to was when someone
says this is the right way to doit, because I've been through

(17:39):
some cycles with that. And Ithink there's, there's, um,
there's always, I don't want touse the word balance. There's
always different emphasis thatare all of equal importance, or
at least should be of somedegree of importance, that if
you ignore the other influences,then you end up off in some
weird spot. Yeah. And so I don'twant the pendulum to swing too

(18:03):
widely, but I like where you'regoing, and I'm not taking it
critically of Allison mark atall. All right, so keep going.
Okay.

Dave Leake (18:10):
So all right, so here's what I have. What is a
church focused on hosting God'spresence look like? These are
raw thoughts that are probablynot finished, and this might
change wildly in the next 10months forever. So one thing I
have is this, a church focusedon hosting God's presence, I
think has a focus on what Iwould term as the purity of

(18:33):
worship. What that means to meis this, I think that if worship
is God focused? I think itshould be. I think that's
there's really not a biblicalcase for the other I think
people connect with God inworship, but the purpose is not
connection. The purpose isgiving him praise. The purpose
is giving him the glory Hedeserves.

Jeff Leake (18:53):
That's a prejudice of mine. I always, I always feel
that the songs selected in apublic gathering should be
declaring the attributes and themajesty of who God is. A lot of
songs sing about me, songs, somesongs are me, what God does for
me, what I feel when God Iworship him. Sure they're

(19:15):
they're songs about myrelationship with God, which
have their place, sometimesthere are prayers that I'm
praying, but I think in itspurest form, I always want to, I
always say upward declarativethe recognition of who he is,
the glorification of his name.
That's my preference for for thepublic, which tends to be the
things when you activate youryour will in that way that that

(19:39):
invites the presence of God. Iagree, powerful way. Yeah, so,
but when I'm thinking of a purealso has to do with holiness,
yes, confession of sin. So,

Dave Leake (19:51):
so here's right, here's where I'm going with
this. I think that if worship isa ministry more to God than it
is to people, which I think ishow we should. Be looking at it.
I think we're talking about morethan just music, more than just
slow songs. We're talking abouta life, but a life that brings
so on our weekend experiences,where we're bringing this moment

(20:14):
to specifically all focus ongiving God worship and praise
and glory for who he is. I thinkthat there's like there is an
aspect. I know this is going OldCovenant, but I think it's a
good comparison. I think there'salmost like a Levitical aspect
to worship. We're talking aboutworship music, where I think I

(20:35):
would want people to be seeingthemselves on the worship team
and the worship leaders as asdoing something sacred and holy
and reverent, you know, to Godin a way that is different than
just every other aspect of lifeor of of even a church service.
I'm not saying it's better, butI'm saying it's different, like

(20:55):
we're going to treat thismoment, or we're bringing
worship to God is holy. And sofor me, you know, I realized
that not every Church'sassignment is the same. So I'm
not saying this is the onlyright way to do it. When I'm
thinking of purity of worship,I'm like, well,

Jeff Leake (21:09):
that's, that's a significant statement. What Not
every Church's assignment is thesame. So this isn't a matter of
of the right way. This is a thisis a particular calling. Is so
is this what every church shouldbe doing, or is this a
particular calling dependingupon what church you lead in
pastor? Well, also because ifyou're saying, what is church

(21:31):
primarily about, then it isn't amatter of interpretation, okay?

Dave Leake (21:37):
Well, this part is methodological. Okay? I think a
purity of worship is somethingthat we all should be focusing
on. My methodology for thatwould be that I would want,
like, again, I'm saying would,because my church doesn't exist
yet, but when we're talkingabout like, who is leading and
on the stage for worship, Iwould rather have less band

(21:59):
members and less of a fullworship experience, but the
people on stage have the righthearts and are all in unity that
have a phenomenal thing full ofpeople that don't follow Jesus
at all. Do you know what I'msaying? I realize some
philosophy that's two pretty bigextremes. No, but there, there
are some philosophies that arelike, You know what? Like, let's

(22:20):
get paid musicians. They don'thave to be Christians, okay,
yeah, see what you mean. We'regonna, like, we just want to
have good music, because as longas people are able to connect
with God, that's a valuedecision, yeah, but, but for me,
I think, because it's a lifething, okay, then a life that's
not a life of worship. I don'twant to be part of the work. Do
you understand? Yeah, and that'sthat's in a different way than

(22:41):
somebody, I think, like we haveto have inroads for somebody
who's just starting to start alord to greet. And by the

Jeff Leake (22:47):
way, that might be shocking for some people to hear
that there are some churchesthat hire musicians that are not
necessarily a part of theirchurch, a or hired for their
heart. They're hired basicallyfor the skill, or their skill.
Yeah, that is not Allison parksapproach, but there are churches
a lot, sometimes very large onesthat that are that,

Dave Leake (23:06):
yeah, for sure. I think that probably the ones
that do it tend to be larger,yeah, because they can afford to
pay their musicians, whereas ifyou can't, you're just like,
hey, who could play somethingright? Okay, but so purity of
worship, it goes beyond justworship moments, but I think
it's

Jeff Leake (23:20):
there, but the balance of that is too
sometimes, when you start abrand new church, you don't have
a worship leader, you may bestarting with a immature, young
believer who wants to have apure heart

Dave Leake (23:30):
and is still working on it, no doubt, a matter of
perfection. No, no, no, no, no.
We're not talking about we'renot talking about finished
articles only, yeah, which noneof us are anyway, just talking
about hunger. We're talkingabout hunger and the dedication
of my life to follow the Lord.
Okay, good, right. Keep going.
Okay. Second one I have is, Ithink a church focused on
hosting the presence of God hasa priority on making space to do

(23:50):
listening and not just speaking.
Okay, so when a guest comes inthe room, if you're just, if
you're you're ready to hostthem, but you here's the debt,
but here's we're watching thegame, we're doing this, and you
have it's so packed that theynever even have a chance to say
anything. I don't think you'rebeing good host.

Jeff Leake (24:07):
Okay? I think so you're inviting God in, and
you're going to give some timeof waiting in his presence at
some point where the Holy Spiritcan speak. Yeah,

Dave Leake (24:16):
it just has a regular practice, even if it's
just little moments that aredesigned for that. Okay? I
think, okay, good. Some of theseare just part of our DNA, and
they're obvious. But I thinkhosting the presence of God, you
know, without faith, it'simpossible to please God. I
think bold faith where we'reexpecting, like, where we're
treating God like he's a bigGod, okay, not like we can only
believe for we're positive isgoing to happen,

Jeff Leake (24:38):
expecting the supernatural, yeah, okay.

Dave Leake (24:42):
And at atmosphere of love. You know what I mean? Like
where, where we show honor, bothto God and to people, and we
create a loving atmosphere fearof God and reverence. I've been
reading these really good booksby John Bevere recently, where
he talks about how the keysometimes to inviting God's
presence into a place. Istreating God with the same fear
and respect that he's supposedto have, you know, not, not as

(25:05):
in afraid of God and havingdistance, but treating him as
holy and having the reverencethat comes with that. So fear of
God and reverence, I think youdo an excellent job of this one.
But messages aim to please God,even at the expense of
popularity. I think one of theproblems with church in general,

(25:26):
in America is sometimes there'sa big risk of, if I say these
things on a weekend service, Irisk losing a lot of people.
Yeah, but I personally think theweekend service Okay, while
sometimes you need more time tohandle complex issues. So some
of them might be broken up overweeks, or done in podcast, or

(25:48):
done in a podcast, as we do,because it might be very
detailed, like, well, we got toreally explore this. I don't
think that the weekend serviceshould have anything as being
off limits.

Jeff Leake (25:58):
By the way, I received one of the most
precious compliments ever aboutmy preaching ministry, and
honestly, I won't mention theirname. They're they're new to
Allison Park. They said this, soit was such a raw response. And
they said, We just love when youspeak because you preach dirty.

Dave Leake (26:16):
Yeah, I was like, what

Jeff Leake (26:20):
they said, Now, like, like, you get up, you get
up in it, like, your sleeves arerolled up and you're down there
in the dirt with us. And, like,you know, sometimes, sometimes
you watch someone make a meal,and then sometimes, like, their
sleeves are rolled up and theygot flour everywhere. Like, you,
you're like, in you're like,you're taking the meatloaf and
you're, you're grinding it withyour hands, and you're putting

(26:42):
it on our plate. So they werelike, I feel like you're making
it real for me, like it's likeI'm there, and it's hitting the
parts of where I actually live,and you're breaking the word
down, and you tell me the truth.
And so I thought, wow, that'sthat is a real compliment. Yeah,
I think that's what you'retalking about.

Dave Leake (26:59):
Well, I think, I think when I hear that too. So I
think some of that's yourdelivery and your style, but
some of that is like, okay,like, like, recently, you've
been on, like, a, I just need totell you this, and that's that's
like, honestly, a god focusedservice where he's the main
patron, he's the mainstakeholder, shareholder. You

(27:19):
know what I'm saying? It's like,there are some things that I
don't think are fun to say ortalk about right now, and it's,
it's gonna and it might create amess, because it's like, maybe
something we don't talk aboutenough as an American church.

Jeff Leake (27:33):
So there's always, there's a bunch of ways you can
do that wrong. So one way is,this is going to be over your
head. But I'm going to say thisintellectual thing, whether you
understand it or not, becausesure it's sure, it's the right
sounding theology, for sure, orsomebody like I'm going to tell
you what is my personal petpeeve or prejudice, and I'm
going to say it in an unfilteredway, because it makes me feel

(27:53):
like I just vented to you. Nodoubt, right? That's not all
that helpful either. Sure I'mreally angry about sin, and I'm
going to preach angry, because Ithink God should be angry about
this. That's probably nothelpful. But someone that says
with humility, you know, I'vebeen grappling with this issue,
and it's been dealing I've beendealing with it personally. And
I just need to say to you, ifyou're here and you're and this

(28:15):
is how you're living, look atwhat the scripture says here,
like honest humility, but like,penetrating clarity about what
the Word says, calling people toa place of repentance. Well,
even if you're not, this isactually what I love about
Philip. Anthony Mitchell, yeah,is he? He preaches that way,
like, at least it hits my spiritthat way. I feel like, man, he

(28:35):
is unapologetically willing tolose followers in order to tell
you the truth that you need tohear to save your soul. Yes,
yeah.

Dave Leake (28:44):
So So in I think humility is key it. I don't
think it always be that I'vepersonally wrestled with this,
yeah, no, right? I get it, but,but I think it's like a hey, the
Bible does say this, yeah. Andas your pastor, I'm accountable
before God to tell you what theBible says, right? And if you
don't like that, I'm sorry, butI have to at least put it out
there, because you need to know,right? Better for somebody to

(29:06):
know than to be like, well, thisis going to cause so much of a
mess if we Yeah,

Jeff Leake (29:10):
and I've come to the place better for somebody to
leave for the right reason. Yes,they're like, this is what
happened with Jesus a lot. Youknow, he would teach, and then
people would walk away and belike, That was a hard teaching.
I don't think I can follow thisguy anymore. And you never saw
Jesus chase them. Like, oh, it'snot that bad. Like, no, let me
explain. Like, he, he, let it bewhat it was, yeah. And he walked

(29:31):
away, right? And I think that'sgood. Now, there's a little bit
of a danger with this. Let me,let me. Let me go into the
biblical piece, if we use firstcovenant paradigms to describe
the worship setting, I think wecan be in danger of producing an
Old Covenant approach to God.
Sure, because when you actuallylook at the New Testament

(29:54):
gatherings, they were targetedfor different reasons in
different places. Places likewhen they when the early church
would meet, when they would meetin the temple courts. I think
that was with guests in mind,sure, because it was an outdoor
public gathering with a lot ofpeople who were hearing things
for the first time when they mettogether for communion
celebrations. I think that was abelievers only meeting, sure

(30:15):
when they when they gatheredtogether in homes. I think that
that was a raw let's get real.
We're all following Jesus. Let'shold each other accountable.
Sure, kind of a meeting. I don'tever see anything in the New
Testament where they had longworship services like the
Levites in the temple.

Dave Leake (30:36):
Well, for the record, I'm not talking about
the length, I'm talking aboutthe reason for why we're doing

Jeff Leake (30:43):
but even in even in that because what it does seem
to be is, if you read FirstCorinthians, chapter 1213, and
14, and it talks about thefunction of the gifts of the
Spirit, and especially Corinth,which seemed to be the kind of
church that's focused, like yousaid, on the presence of God, on
the operation of thesupernatural, on pure worship.

(31:04):
They had lost sight of the factthat there could be some people
in the room that didn'tunderstand, sure, and so, so
they didn't have enoughexplanation. But you don't
really, you don't really get NewTestament examples of how church
happened.

Dave Leake (31:16):
No, right? You don't. Right? You do. Which one
may which is

Jeff Leake (31:19):
what makes this conversation a little bit
complicated, because in ourmodel of ministry, we're trying
to pattern everything we doafter the church in the book of
Acts, like the early church isthe be all and end all for us,
right? So how do we get back tobeing like the early church was,
and there isn't an early churchliturgy, sure or service order
or weekend approach. We knowthey met on the first day of the

(31:41):
week. We know they brought theiroffering to God. We know that
this was a symbolic celebrationof the resurrection life of
Jesus. We know the five purposeswere practiced. They worshiped
God, they ministered to eachother, they fellowshiped with
each other, they preached thegospel. You know, they were
practicing stewardship. Theywere involved. And you know, I
forget what the first fifth onethat I didn't mention there, but

(32:03):
you get the point, like theywere a balanced congregation
that was meeting for all thesepurposes. But we don't get now
Old Testament. We have thembringing things to the sacrifice
to the temple and offering itunto God and and in the Levites
singing in the temple courts.
But we don't know how much ofthat got practiced by the New
Testament congregations. Yes,but let me, let me though. Okay,

(32:25):
so what do you imagine they'rein Philippi Paul's plan? Wait,
was their

Dave Leake (32:32):
worship service like? I'm not sure what their
worship service was like, but Ithink, I think their worship was
worship focused, and it wasn'tworship. Well, certainly,
worship is not the same thing asevangelism, and when it all goes
towards evangelism andeverything is the purpose of
evangelism, it's you miss thepurpose of worship. All right,
also, okay, so, so let mecontrast this. I think. So what

Jeff Leake (32:54):
you're saying is seeker oriented churches tend to
be only about evangelism, andeven their worship is filtered
through the lens of evangelism,yes, and the preaching is
filtered through the lens ofevangelism, and the meetings,
and the

Dave Leake (33:06):
style that happens with that is, it starts good,
but I think if you go there toomuch, it's, it's a, it becomes a
growth focused church, yeah, andnot a god focused church. And I
know,

Jeff Leake (33:19):
hold on, can I have tweetable right there?

Dave Leake (33:21):
No, no, I'm not trying to blast I think it's
really easy to get there quick,and it's not necessarily that
now you're in idolatry. It couldget to the point of idolatry,
but anything could get to thepoint of idolatry if you take it
too far, like when

Jeff Leake (33:34):
Jesus you're saying where we're okay, it's time for
us to worship. This is not aboutthe lost right now, this is
about, this is about God.
Worship God with all your heart,mind, soul and strength, yes, we
will worry

Dave Leake (33:46):
have the lost mind in terms of explanation, so that
they understand what'shappening. So you don't be
invited in. Yeah, but theworship is about God. Worship
isn't about the lost like and Ithink, I think that's a key
distinction. So okay, whenPeter, you know Jesus says,
Peter, do you love me? He says,Yes, Feed my sheep. I understand

(34:06):
that the Great Commission isabout making disciples every
nation. I realize that that'sour mission. But if our mission
comes before loving the Lordyour God with all your heart,
we're missing something.

Jeff Leake (34:16):
Well, that's but there are two challenges. The
Great Commandment is what you'requoting, yes, love the Lord. You
go with all your heart, mind,soul, strength, love your
neighbor as yourself. The GreatCommission is the other, the
other command that Jesus gave.
Well,

Dave Leake (34:29):
there's, there's also a new command I give you,
love each other, right?

Jeff Leake (34:33):
Yeah. So all of them have to be practiced, yes, but
they don't. They aren'tnecessarily practiced
simultaneous, simultaneously,yes, which is, I think, when you
try to say this one weekendservice is going to accomplish
all of the purposes that God hasfor the church, all at the same
time, while reaching people thatdon't know Jesus. That's,
that's, that's

Dave Leake (34:54):
a tall order. It is a tall order. And and I
acknowledge like that God givesdifferent people. People,
different roles, differentgifts, different assignments. So
I'm not saying I know the rightway to do church and every other
way to do church is wrong, butwhat I felt the conviction about
from this dream and onwards is Ithink that sometimes we're

(35:15):
missing the point of

Jeff Leake (35:16):
why. Okay, so let's ask this question, then, is that
dream God revealing to you thevalue system he has for the
church in 2025 or has got thatGod revealing his specific
assignment for

Dave Leake (35:29):
salt church. I don't know I'm processing through this
here, but here's okay. Thismight help to clarify a little
bit. I think that if we are overindexing into evangelism above
everything else. It can, it canlook a certain way, and it can
miss some of the point of whatwe're supposed to be doing.
Okay, so let me, let me describethis. This is going to ruffle

(35:51):
some feathers, but I think it'sworth grappling with. I'm not
saying first list was good list.
This list is bad list, and noteverything on here is bad, but
when it all comes together, Ithink maybe it misses something.
Don't react to every individualone. Okay, I think a church over
focused on hosting guests forthe sake of growth always,
almost always, has a brevity ofworship. Worship is something

(36:13):
that we need to becauseeverything needs to be brief,
because our focus is growth andgetting as many guests as
possible. So the god part, wegot some time for that, but we
got to limit it like that's andI understand. Okay, let's keep
going. I think that, you know,an over focus on guest church
has an aversion to the fullBible. The filter for messages

(36:34):
selects either easy passages andfelt need topics only, okay? And
it's the stuff that's like,complicated. We're not going to
get into that. I think this thissort of a guest over focused
Church. The messages are almostalways aimed at what you get out
of following God, and why God'sway is the best way for you to

(36:54):
live a great life. It's carriedon the end of the stick
preaching. Well, let me, I knowit's hard, but let me explain to
you why this is actually betterfor you.

Jeff Leake (37:03):
Now, you know, say almost at the end of that
statement, okay, Boomer. Well,that's a boomer way of thinking.
Ah, it's not just Boomer way.
No, no, no, it is. Seriously.
That is the model of church thatcame up during my era,

Dave Leake (37:16):
okay, but, but, I mean, if you think about Donald
Miller story brand. He's the guythat wrote blue lick jazz. Like
the way that companies tend todo marketing is that the
customer is the hero of thestory. So I love this. I'm not
anti that. But listen,

Jeff Leake (37:33):
Dave, in the early 1990s when I was first becoming
a pastor, yeah, there was a bookthat came out called marketing
the church. It was, it was forthe very first time, church
leaders started to think about,hey, maybe we should clarify our
message. Maybe we should have avision statement, yeah, maybe we
should tell the people who areoutside of this building what

(37:55):
we're really all about. Like,maybe we should think about
who's on the platform and whocan really sing or not before we
sure? Like, maybe we shouldtighten things, maybe we should
paint the building like, like,all of a sudden the church world
became aware. We could probablydo a better job of reaching
people outside of us, if we justpresented ourselves. We give a
rep, which was really good. Butthen what happened is it became

(38:19):
something that filteredeverything. Every sermon became
titled this way. Every seriesbecame titled this way.
Everything about it wasmarketed. No, not all churches
did this, but especially theones that started to grow were
like, this is working. Like thisis really happening.

Dave Leake (38:33):
Look at how many people are appreciate this.
Yeah, I don't want to lose allof this. There was so much that
I think was of God. But what werealized,

Jeff Leake (38:40):
especially during the pandemic, is with we we went
way too far, yeah, and thereneeded to be a course
correction, and we had todeepen. In fact, your generation
is sort of like, I'm so tired ofthat, like, I don't want to hear
that anymore. Yes, I want you tosmack me upside the head with
some truth.

Dave Leake (38:59):
Yeah, you know.
Okay, so for the record, I justtalked about the Donald Miller
thing. We use story brand. Ilike that. But I'm saying, if
everything has to be you're thehero, and this is why it's an
advantage for you, then it'sactually not grappling with what
the Bible talks about, which isactually God's the hero, and
you're here to give everythingto God, yeah, you know. And
like, I think as pastors eventoo, it's like, Listen, I'm not

(39:21):
trying to control your life. Youcan do what you want with this,
but Jesus is trying to do that.
Like the whole following Him issurrendering everything to him.
So okay, let's keep going. Let'skeep going again. This is, this
is all balance things. This isnot, I don't like these things
at all. Think there's an over usover emphasis on bottom line.
Metrics like, be all, end allis, well, we can track how well

(39:44):
we're doing as a church based onattendance. As an example,
tithes, whatever campuses, okaynext, reaching people versus
obedience to God's word. Yeah,or like, what were the other
metrics? Be. Okay, some of theseare hard to measure. But, I
mean, I think, I thinkdiscipleship and fruitfulness so

(40:06):
people that multiply,

Jeff Leake (40:09):
it's always hard.
When you get into qualitativemeasurements, it's always

Dave Leake (40:12):
harder. But Jesus typically measures more by
quality. Yeah, he never

Jeff Leake (40:17):
really measured crowd size. No, they they
reported it, but it wasn't themeasurement of his success as a
person.

Dave Leake (40:24):
It was, it was how many qualitative decisions that
we have here. Yeah, even

Jeff Leake (40:28):
that, I don't know that they really measured. I'm
not sure

Dave Leake (40:31):
that they're individual. I shouldn't say
they're counting them as in,like, Let's track the numbers,
but the

Jeff Leake (40:35):
stories, but people, tracking things is another part
of our

Dave Leake (40:39):
culture, right?
That's part of the Americanculture, for sure. Yeah, I
think. And there is a book ofNumbers, yeah, I'll hit, I'll
hit a few more, just very fastover focus on guests, reaching
people, quote, unquote, equalsweekly attendance and maybe
involvement, but notnecessarily, life
transformation. Can't look thathard into that, because we don't
really know that. Know what'shappening. There's a premium on
having an excellent program,quote, developing leaders and

(41:01):
quarterly or yearly growth. Andthen ultimately, when I was
processing this, I ended sort ofon this question, like, to me,
this is like leadership church,or this is like business church,
and a lot of it's not, I don'tthink that's a heretical, awful
thing. There's a lot of good butit maybe can get over focused on
some things with businesses. Youknow, in corporate America,

(41:24):
there are stakeholders and thereare shareholders. This is part
of what this question came outof. This question. So, like, if
we're, if we're focused on,like, Hey, you're developing
leaders. We're developingleaders. We're doing the same
thing. Like, that's secular, butwe're doing it. Like, leadership
is discipleship kind of a thing.
I think there's a chance to misssome things, just even we need
leaders. I love leadershipbooks. I read them all the time,

(41:46):
but disciples at their core arefollowers. Leaders at their core
are leaders. You know what Imean. And we need leaders to
make disciples, but we needdisciples more than we need
leaders. So I guess this is sortof the question like, if, if we
think we're taking so manybusiness and leadership
principles to the church, andthose are good, I don't want to

(42:07):
lose them. I don't want to goback to scattered chaos. And we
don't think about the building.
We don't think about but who areour stakeholders? Is it the
members? Is it the number ofguests? Is it the reputation
that we have? Or is it? Whatdoes God think about?

Jeff Leake (42:22):
Well, yes, it's all those things. Okay, it's first
of all, pleasing God. Of course,he's got to be number one. But
it should be a communityengagement. It should be people
that don't know Jesus. It shouldbe the people that that are your
growing, committed believers.
Has to

Dave Leake (42:37):
be always know if we're pleasing God, then like if
God.

Jeff Leake (42:41):
So let me just say this You are now listening live
to a conversation between anolder pastor and his church
planter. Yeah, right, and a sonand so what I always say, I'm a
little put a little parenthesesin the middle of this intense
discussion, is that churchplanting is the research and
development arm of the church.
One of the things I love aboutbeing so engaged with people who

(43:04):
are planting churches is thatyou are, you get the opportunity
to invent and reinvent churchwithout the risk, because you
don't have to worry about losingpeople right now, because you
don't have somebody, right soyou're, you're going to go in
with a philosophy that you canafford to take some risks with,
that someone who passes a preexisting church might not

(43:27):
imagine these things becausethey have a group of people they
have to lead somewhere. Sure.
Okay, so Dave is having a veryidealistic, Holy Spirit oriented
assigned conversation that ifyou're a pastor, we don't want
you to walk away feelingcondemned about but no, no,
please don't. Yeah, you wereasking some very good questions.
That that I think now willprobably shape the formation of

(43:51):
salt church, yes, and as yourchurch is formed, may influence
the way other churches dochurch, okay? Probably will
influence how Allison Park doeschurch, okay, so that's, that's
all a good thing. So what wasyour question? Again, how do you
know if you're pleasing God?

Dave Leake (44:05):
Well, when we're talking about shareholders, I
know that's a weird thing, but Ithink it's an apt comparison.
We're growing our church. We'refocused on producing a harvest
3060, 100 fold that you justtalked about in his parable of
the seed. And so when we're whenwe're talking about, like, the
way we're designing church, andwho needs to be most pleased?

(44:28):
There are a number of audiences.
There are there are, like,there's the unchurched, you
know, Andy Stanley used to saybuilding a church for those that
unchurched people love to cometo. There's members. They've
been Chris,

Jeff Leake (44:39):
you would kind of object to that phrase. I would
way I would object. You wouldsay, building a church that the
Holy Spirit loves to visit,yeah?

Dave Leake (44:48):
And I think you can have both, okay, okay, but in
order of

Jeff Leake (44:51):
priority, yes, yes, you would say, if salt church
has a value system,

Dave Leake (44:56):
it beats people.
Yes, God gets guests. Yeah.
Well. And you know what, Iactually think in my

Jeff Leake (45:02):
building a church that the Holy Spirit wants to
visit and that unchurched peoplewill potentially love to attend.
If they're willing to repent oftheir sin and deal with their
issues and come to Jesus andfollow Him, then yes. And if
they're not, they're probablygoing to feel uncomfortable,
right? Well, that's not Andy'sphilosophy, no, right? So that's
a very different philosophy. No.
Slam on Andy. For thatphilosophy, that's his

(45:24):
assignment. What you're saying.
But for you, salt, church willbe a place where primarily the
presence of the Holy Spirit willbe welcomed, and that
secondarily things will befiltered for guests. Yes, now
you're not going to be the kindof church that says we're a
solely believers church, and ifyou're going to make your way in
here as a unbeliever, good luck.
No, right? We are not going tomake anything easy for you.

(45:46):
We're not going to interpretanything. We're not explaining
anything. If you get saved, youget saved. We're going to just,
this is for this is for us, andGod, right now, right which, I
don't think God's pleased withthat either, because he cares
about the lost more thananything else. Yeah, 100% so if
you're going to you're gonna,you're gonna invite the presence
of God, you're gonna invite hisheart into your atmosphere,
which is for the lost, and it'sfor broken and hurting people.

(46:07):
And okay, so, but yeah, I thinkthat's, I think you got clarity
for what kind of church

Dave Leake (46:14):
you want to build.
Yeah, I don't really know whatit's gonna feel like,

Jeff Leake (46:18):
well, but nothing.
But you're talking about valuesnow, not methods. You're right.
And methods will have to beshaped as you find your worship
leader and you figure out whatyou're capable of, what your
room looks like, and you know,so a lot of that. And if you are
having pure, holy worshipservices with three people
there, you're probably gonnasay, we need to do some more
outreach. You know what I mean,like, right? So it's, there's,

(46:40):
there's always a balance to it,although I will say it's so I'll
throw a little anecdote in frommy friend, one of my one of the
people I admire most in theworld is Bishop Barnabas
mutakambali, who's theArchbishop of the Assemblies of
God in Tanzania. And he planteda church, and his, here's his
church, better planning method,he planted more guru, which is a

(47:01):
city in Tanzania. He would goup, there's a big mountain there
in that city, go up on top ofthe mountain, pray until the
Holy Spirit told him to go down.
Then he would go down into thecity and look for the person
that he that God would show himeither needed to pray for
physical healing or deliverancefrom demons. It's amazing. I

(47:21):
love that. And so he would prayfor someone. They would
experience the power of God, andthey would join his launch team
after they had an encounter withChrist, yeah. They would go back
up to the mountain to pray. Andnow his church has what, several
1000 people has planted, Ithink, 400 churches over the
years. He's leading the wholenation, yeah. So that's not your
typical American leadershiporiented church planting method,

(47:44):
but it was clearly hisassignment from God. And there's
a little bit of the dimension ofwhat you're talking about there.

Dave Leake (47:50):
I think, I think the way that I'm painting it almost
makes it seem like my church isgoing to be a worship church
focus. But I don't think I'meven saying that the priority is
on worship music, but I'msaying, I think the value has to
be, what does God think aboutwhat we're doing, and not just
we're going to do things thatwill please God, and by that

(48:11):
we're serving Him, and it willbe pleased like, Yes, that's
true, yeah. And there are thingsthat we should definitely be
doing. But, you know, I just,I've had this for a while. I've
had this, like, longing toexperience some of the same
things. Yes, that theyexperienced the book of Acts,
but even just that a century agothat were exploding, like 1920s
1930s 40s, 50s. You know whatI'm talking about, like with

(48:35):
after Azusa Street and the

Jeff Leake (48:37):
outpouring of the Holy Spirit, the revivals. So I
pastored through some of that Iknow I've been through. So I've
been at Allison Park, and we'vegone through eras where I would
say we were very much presencefocused, and had seasons of
great revival. And then probablythat became a little stale,

(48:59):
simply because we got married toa liturgy, yeah, a Pentecostal
liturgy, a format for a service.
And was no longer about God.
It's about following thispattern where that God had
blessed in the past, and so thenwe had to keep on following what
the Holy Spirit was doing. Andafter the revival we
experienced, we went back intodoing what I would call a
holistic approach with smallgroups and outreaches and, yeah,

(49:24):
Bible teaching. And then westarted planting churches and
functioning apostically. Andthere were times we swung, swung
a little bit more Seekeroriented, and there have been
times we've been swung a littlebit more Holy Spirit oriented.
And I think even your assignmentas a church can sometimes shift
and change depending upon thetime and season. I agree with
you. But like you might say,man, you know what, we have

(49:45):
become so believer focused, wegot to do something to start
reaching people. Or you say,man, we have become so focused
on guests that we aren'tspending enough time seeking the
face of God. I think this is ayou'll never hit a perfect
balance with it. I agree. But.
You at least know the foundationof where God's leading you. I
always say there are threethings that have to be mobilized
on a regular basis for a churchto be healthy. Okay, so I don't

(50:09):
know that I've ever told youthis before. So the body, the
word and the presence of theHoly Spirit. If you have if you
have a church that mobilizes thebody and preaches the word but
the Holy Spirit is not active,that church will feel dead. If
you have a church that the wordis preached and the Holy Spirit

(50:31):
is moving, but no one is everequipped to do ministry, that
church will feel like a show. Ifyou have a church where the Holy
Spirit is moving and the body'sreleased but the word isn't
preached properly. That church

Dave Leake (50:44):
will be weird. Yeah?
Heresy and yeah, yes. But

Jeff Leake (50:47):
when you have all three, when you're mobilizing
and equipping the body, whenyou're preaching the word
effectively, and when you'rewelcoming the Holy Spirit,
there, you have a balancedcongregation that will be
healthy. Yeah? And those threethings I try to keep in mind as
I lead Allison park, there aretimes when I think we need to
swing more toward the word. Ithink, if there's anything

(51:09):
that's happened in the last fiveyears at Allison Park is we've
gone more in depth in the word,so

Dave Leake (51:15):
can I? Can I make a comment on this? Yes, I didn't
read this part. I was almostinto my list of hosting the
President's church feel, but thelast one I had was, you know,
has a priority in reading theWord of God. And I don't just
mean yes, personally, outside ofchurch, but I read this. I don't
know if I told you this. I wasreading a Smith Wigglesworth
biography, and one of thestories that made an impact in

(51:40):
me is they were talking abouthow he went to one service, and
he read, like, very slowly,like, a whole chapter of John.
And it like, took, like, I don'tknow, he was kind of eccentric
in the way he would do things.
He was an evangelist from fromEngland and the Yeah, 20th
century, whatever, anyway. Andafter he finished preaching,
there was a woman that came upto him that that essentially

(52:02):
told him, like, I didn't reallyknow that I got anything from
your message, but I've neverheard anybody read John like
that. And it was like, as he wasjust slowly reading the word,
like God spoke to herpowerfully, and she was
transformed just by hearing theWord of God. I think when I was
younger, and you sort of you. Iremember you. Well, that's

Jeff Leake (52:21):
actually one of the things Paul says to Timothy,
devote yourself to the publicreading of Scripture. Yeah. It's
actually a New Testament idea.
When you Pastor, devote yourselfto the reading of the word,

Dave Leake (52:31):
yeah. You, you like, early on in my preaching career,
you like, helped me with this,but you were, they were like,
don't worry so much about, like,all the other parts of the
sermon, like, really, like,stick in the text. And the more
I've gotten older, like, I usedto be, like, summarize this,
give this part thisunderstandable. Summarize, tell
again, like all, and sometimesyou have to do that because it's

(52:53):
a long

Jeff Leake (52:53):
story. Yeah, one of the biggest failures of young
preachers especially is you lookfor the perfect illustration.
Yeah, great interest. A greatinterest, a funny story, yeah,
but you don't grapple with whatthe text says, and you don't
preach the Word is what Paulsays. Preach the word in season
and out of season. So, yeah,keep

Dave Leake (53:13):
going. I'm sorry.
Well, I know. I just think youwere talking about activating
the body, preaching the wordhaving was the Holy Spirit
there, you know, being welcomed.
I think I earlier, maybe hadunderestimated, and man youth
ministry makes it harder too,because, yeah, those they have
the attention. Man of goldfish,and I was there too. I get it.

(53:34):
I'm not criticizing, it's justthe age group. But like, there
is something powerful, I thinkabout actually, not just
teaching the word, but even justreading of the Scripture through
complex passages, through stuffthat doesn't make as much sense.

Jeff Leake (53:47):
Your grandpa, mom's dad, right? Melody's father, he
had this project in Nicaraguawhere they went to the city
square and they read publiclyover a microphone the entire
Bible, wow. They had shifts ofpeople, and they read around the
clock just to read the word overin Nicaragua. Wow, that's pretty

(54:08):
amazing. Did that have resultsthat they saw from that they
didn't really measure it byresult? Okay, do you know what I
mean? The project was just that.
It was just, we're gonna go downand we're gonna read the word,
wow. We're gonna read the Bibleand we're gonna declare it over
the city. Yeah, yeah, that'sbeautiful, yeah. Did he have
results in the ministry? Yes. Imean, his church was in the
1000s, and they planted a bunchof churches. But some things you

(54:30):
do just because God tells you todo it, you know, measure it
based on success. You measure itbased on were you faithful to do
what I asked you to

Dave Leake (54:39):
do. I think that that's what I'm talking about
with purity of worship, withfocus on God's presence. It's
not so much the experience ofGod's presence. Yeah, it's is
what we're doing, devoted topleasing God specifically, and
not just on winning people. I'mall about the Great Commission
and soul winning. And that hasto be, it's an essential part of
the church. Essential. LittleCentral. But I just am wondering

(55:02):
if part of the shift of whatGod's so you have been so
faithful to serve God in yourgeneration, and I think you've
shifted with the currents of theHoly Spirit over time. I'm
grappling with the church thatdoesn't exist, yeah, and an
assignment,

Jeff Leake (55:16):
what you should be doing. And honestly, I'm, I'm,
hope, hoping I'm honest enoughto look at my own life and admit
there are times I was missingsomething or I wish I had done
something different. Because,man, this is hard. Being a
church is hard, and trying to doit in a way that's faithful to
God and with the right valuesand emphasis is not easy. So I

(55:38):
think it is what it is now,like, what can I do? Like, I'm
not done leading, but honestlyI'm looking back, and I want you
to be and anyone that I workwith, I wouldn't want you to be
following what Jesus is callingyou to do. I do think Dave, I'll
just add this one littleinsight. For a little while,
church planning was like I wasgetting church planters showing

(55:59):
up in my life every coupleweeks, yeah, saying, Hey, man, I
have this dream. Then it, thenit just died, like, for a little
bit, like no one was applying,and then the pandemic hit, which
put a almost everybody who'sshowing up now, who's saying I
want to plant a church, isshowing up with this disturbed
feeling inside, yeah, right.
They're like, sure, I don'tlike. So the reason why people

(56:20):
are planting right now is this,I don't like what the church has
become, and I want to imaginewhat it could be, and I feel
like I can do that better byplanting a fresh expression of
it, sure. And so almosteverybody that I'm having
conversations with are coming atit from that angle, which is
really great, because that willnot only plan a whole bunch of

(56:43):
new churches, it willreinvigorate the ones that that
exist, because we're all goingto learn from you as you pioneer
these new method methods.

Dave Leake (56:52):
And for the record, I have the utmost respect for
people. I mean, I don't have achurch yet, but for people that
have churches that are pastoringpeople and winning souls. I
think that's amazing. And i iWhat one thing I feel like is a
value. I'm not trying to be antianything that's happening. To

Jeff Leake (57:10):
pick that up. It's but you do feel like it does
feel like you have a word fromthe Lord about this. Now, this
is, yeah, this is an assignmentGod's given you that you have to
be faithful to flesh out, yes,yeah. I feel that too. I feel
challenged by it, and that willmake me go back and say, in the
services that I lead in design,how can I make sure that I'm

(57:31):
considering my primary audience,who is a holy God? Yeah, in the
way that we design things, it'sa good, it's a good it's a good
question to ask, yeah. And ifyou're an attender of a church,
when you show up on the weekend,how can you approach this
experience, not as a consumer? Ihope that this is a service that

(57:53):
ministers to my needs, andapproach it more from the
perspective of, how do Iinteract today with the Holy
God, yeah, and with His HolyWord, and with my need to submit
myself to him and honor him,yes. And if you come to church
with that mindset, that's reallythe right

Dave Leake (58:09):
mindset. And I just feel like there's a wave of a
move of God that's coming thatis going to be all this stuff
and not better than the churchthat is in the past. I think
it's different, but I also thinkGod's doing something new. Yeah,
you're launching that.

Jeff Leake (58:24):
He is, he is doing something new. And your your age
group and younger, the 20s and30s. Man, God's doing some
really, you can feel it. There'sa wave coming. There's a hunger
coming. So many young men, yeah,that are stepping up and saying,
I'm going to follow Jesus. I'mgoing to do it with all my
heart, mind and soul andstrength. That's It's inspiring

(58:47):
to

Dave Leake (58:48):
comment quickly.
We're about to close, but tocomment on what you mentioned
about the church planters comingin that are have that disturbed
feeling. I don't even some ofit. It is some people. It is a
disturbed feeling. But I thinkthere is this, this thing that
I've noticed that's a commontrend that's sort of like, I
know I'm supposed to dosomething, and I don't exactly
have a model that's doingexactly what I feel like God's

(59:11):
asking me to do. Yeah, it's sortof that. It's like, I want to
take because when I think aboutmy church, it's probably going
to be very similar to AllisonPark and so many ways. I'm sure
people will come down there belike, oh, like, and they might
not even notice the difference,but I will notice the
difference, yeah, because Ibecause I've heard God tell me
something specific.

Jeff Leake (59:29):
Well, I don't mean disturbed, like I'm angry. I
mean like a holy disturbance,like a burden from the Lord,
like I feel inside, aconstraint, like the prophets of
old would feel Yes, when theylooked out and they said, there
is something that's not right inhow we function, and we now need
to speak into this situation sothat we can course correct and

(59:51):
come into alignment with whatGod's saying and doing. That's
what I mean disturbed, not likeI'm really mad at the church,
and I'm leaving my church mad.
No, no. A holy hunger for thebest way forward, yeah, and this
is what a lot of truth. This iswhat I think you're saying.
That's what I would describe.
You have a holy hunger for thebest way forward, which I share,

(01:00:12):
but you have the freedom to,like, really explore where I
have all these people to lead,yes, and, and, so once, once,
once you get it going, thenwe'll say it was, how's it
going?

Dave Leake (01:00:26):
Yeah, I know. And it'll be all, it'll be a bunch
of stuff, and I'm figuring itout,

Jeff Leake (01:00:29):
and you'll be like, well, this didn't work, or that
that, man, this is really great.
I never thought this would beso, but that's part of it. You
know, it's great. And you know,some of you are life group
leaders, and you need to rethinkhow you're leading your life.
Group. Some of you leadministries, you need to think
how you lead. So how can I makethe presence of God more of a
priority in the stuff that Ilead? This is not just about
lead pastors. This is everybody.

(01:00:52):
How I lead my family, how tomake the presence of God more of
a priority in my home.

Dave Leake (01:00:57):
And I even think it's often in moments like this,
that somebody hears theassignment of God for their
life, yeah? Like, maybe you'rehearing this, and you're like, I
know I need to plant the church,but I don't want to talk to
pastor Jeff about that, yeah,because it's gonna become too
real. But you needed to do thatright now. Absolutely. His
email, you know, yep. Jeff allat Allison Parker, we're in that
mode right now. Let's do it.
Yeah, and we still got what? Atleast. Well, we have five,

Jeff Leake (01:01:21):
five planting in 2026, and several stacked that
are possibilities, potentiallythree more so, but yeah, that's
what happened with ColinRobinson, who's planning in New
York City. When he was 16 yearsold, God spoke to him as we as
he heard me talking about churchplanning. Yeah, so maybe you're
on the podcast and you're like,Yeah, that's me,

Dave Leake (01:01:42):
yeah. Well, regardless as to what God's
speaking to you about, you know,we want to challenge you to step
forward into all that is becauseGod has amazing things that he's
doing in this next season. Sohey, as always, thank you so
much for joining us. You couldactually, really help us out and
do us a favor by helping tobroadcast this. You can share it
on social media. You can likeand subscribe if you're on

(01:02:03):
YouTube, you can leave us a fivestar review on whatever platform
you're listening on. It'll justtake you like two minutes, but
it does make a big difference tous, but

Jeff Leake (01:02:13):
regardless, and before we go, big shout out to
producer Matt for all themovements with the set, the
cameras and the new setup,absolutely and little teaser the
potential of a new name. No, we

Dave Leake (01:02:26):
do. You'll Yeah, we'll have a new set, new name
coming in for the new year in 26we'll tell you more about that
in a little bit, but for now,thanks for joining us. We'll see
you guys again next time you.