Is Expecting a “Heavenly Reward” the Same Thing as the Prosperity Gospel?

Is expecting a “heavenly reward” the same thing as the prosperity gospel?

In this episode of the podcast, we explore what the Bible says about heavenly rewards and why living with an eternal perspective changes everything.

When life is hard, obedience feels costly, and your faith goes unnoticed—God sees it all. The pain you endure and the faithfulness you choose are not wasted. There is a purpose beyond the temporary, and Scripture promises that eternal rewards in heaven are waiting for those who don’t give up.

If you’ve ever wondered, “Is it worth following Jesus?” or “Does God reward us for staying faithful?”—this episode will encourage you to live for what matters most.

🔔 Subscribe for more conversations about purpose, faith, and the Kingdom of God.

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Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
Have you ever thought about whether asking God

(00:02):
for an eternal reward is greedy?
We talk a lot about theprosperity gospel and how
materialism is evil, and weshould be serving God, not just
for blessings, but also justbecause he's good, but the Bible
talks an awful lot aboutheavenly reward. In fact, one of
the things we're gonna discussin this episode is how we maybe
lost a view on eternity. Todaywe're gonna be talking all about
how what I do impacts me, notjust now but in the next life,

(00:26):
why I should be concerned, andhow to make sure we're ready for
either when Jesus comes back orthen in my life. So if you're
curious, tune in. Hey everybody.
Welcome to the Allison Parkleadership podcast, where we
have our culture creatingconversations. My name is Dave.
My name is

Jeff Leake (00:44):
Jeff. We're glad you've joined us today. Of
course, Allison Park Church,we're both on staff. I'm the
Lead Pastor. Dave's theNorthside campus pastor at least
for a few more months before youhead on to Jacksonville to plant
your church there. And we'realso father and son, and we love
being able to interact with youin this format, so Dave, I'll

(01:05):
pitch it back to you.

Dave Leake (01:06):
Yeah, no new gratitudes today. But as always,
we just want to thank thelisteners who are a part of the
show. Thanks for being a part.
And if you want a specific shoutout, you can always leave a five
star review in Apple podcastwhere we'll see your name. We
would love to just say thank youto you personally. Yeah, all
right, let's get into

Jeff Leake (01:23):
it. So we have received quite a bit of input,
yeah, over the last couple ofweeks from people that are
sending us topics to cover true.
So we appreciate that too. Youpreached a series. I'm getting
ready to so as well. You didpreach a series. Yeah, yeah, no

Dave Leake (01:37):
questions on because you were talking about doing
things and expecting, what didyou Yeah,

Jeff Leake (01:43):
so the series was on world views, and it was called,
Oh man, I'm drawing a mic now,what it was called, but anyway,
I was talking about theChristian worldview versus the
current popular cultureworldview in in in March, and I
talked about the concept of theChristian worldview in its

(02:04):
approach, the way we think aboutwork. Was it life inside the
box? Life Inside the box? Yes,and and so the and the life
inside the box series wasbasically this concept that in
order to follow Christ, theChristian worldview is all based
upon being willing to die toyourself, therefore to get in

(02:24):
the box, so to speak. You know,kind of that permanent box, our
coffin, die to ourselves, sothat we can live in Christ and
so that's completely opposite ofthe popular culture worldview,
which is basicallyindividualistic self expression,
right? Which is to to be you.
You be you, right? The Christianworldview is you be Jesus,
right? So, okay, so we'retalking about the the approach

(02:48):
to work, what we do every day.
And I was quoting fromColossians chapter three, which
says, Whatever you do, whetherin word or deed, do it all in
the name of the Lord JesusChrist, knowing that he will
reward you right, knowing thathe will give you an inheritance
as your reward. And I wastalking about the fact that
everything in life counts likewhat we do in life, if we do

(03:10):
with the right attitude, and wedo it as unto God, you know that
it counts for eternity, and thatpart of what we get is an
inheritance in heaven, we get aheavenly reward. And I actually
got quite a few people that kindof push back on that, because
that concept of getting a rewardin heaven was somewhat foreign.

(03:33):
It's kind of like disappeared insome ways, from our
conversations in church or ourtheological perspectives,
because the world is so muchabout now, right? And so the
thought of I'm suffering in thismoment with the right attitude
so that I can lay up a reward inthe next moment, and that that

(03:54):
has sort of disappeared from ourframework and the way we think
about life and our currentculture. So coming up this
weekend, so we're now last weekof May here, and we're doing a
series called divine metrics,and we're going to be talking
about at the Hampton campus.
We're going to be talking about,you know, preparing ourselves
for the moment of judgment, andwhat we should be doing with our

(04:16):
lives, and how we maximize ourlife here on earth so that we
get a maximized return ineternity. But I think I don't
know how much we think aboutthis anymore, and I'm actually
curious to hear what you think,Dave about. What if this has
disappeared from our

Dave Leake (04:34):
well, so world, tell me why you got pushback.

Jeff Leake (04:38):
So one, one person wrote me, and they said, in our
life group, we were talkingabout this, and it felt a little
bit weird to us, like, should wereally be working to get a
reward? Doesn't that sound alittle bit like prosperity
teaching, you know, like, almostlike you give to get so
shouldn't we have morealtruistic motives, like we do
what we do just to please God,and we don't really worry? Much

(05:00):
about reward. And I wrote back,and I said, well, obviously the
Apostle Paul was using reward asa motivator. He was saying, what
you're going through right nowis difficult. Actually, the
verse I just quoted inColossians, chapter three, was
written to slaves who were beingtreated unjustly. And he was
saying, realize that even inthat unjust, unjust situation

(05:23):
where you're being exploited andtaken advantage of, if you take
your work and you do it not forthe man, but you do it for God,
it translates into aninheritance that's eternal, so
that you can so actually there'sa concept of justice in this,
that which our world is verymuch talking about justice all
the time. Heaven is a place ofjustice. It's a place where what

(05:44):
you did and how you were treatedand what you endured will count
forever, right? It matters, andif it didn't matter, it would
feel a little bit, I guess yousay, extra unfair.

Dave Leake (05:56):
Well, I guess eternity in general, whether or
not it's heaven or hell, iswhere everything is finally
just, yeah, yes, except by thegrace of God, where what's what
would be just for us has beenalready revoked and canceled.

Jeff Leake (06:10):
Okay, you have to unpack that a lot. So what

Dave Leake (06:13):
would be just for everybody is hell, but because
of Jesus, sacrifice, where he,you know, paid for what we did
or for all of our sins, thatjustice would require punishment
for because he paid for that, wedon't get justice for that. We
get Grace instead. But I'msaying you were saying Heaven is
a place of justice, okay? But,but

Jeff Leake (06:32):
that okay? So I think this is where some of the
misunderstanding comes in. Thereare two judgments that are
described in the Scripture.
You're right, and if you mixthem, so, so the first, the
first one that you justdescribed is called the Great
White Throne, and it's describedin Revelation chapter 20, and
it's this moment where everyhuman being has ever lived is
going to stand before God, andthe books are going to be open,
and we're going to be judgedbased upon what we've done,

(06:54):
right? And, yeah, so great whitethrone. What are you

Dave Leake (07:00):
I thought the great white throne was only for non
Christians. I thought thejudgment seat of Christ was for
Christians. Okay, we're gettingreally theological.

Jeff Leake (07:07):
So technically, yeah, the Great White Throne,
but, but it says anyone whosename was not found written in
the book of life was thrown intothe lake of fire. That's what we
find, right? Okay, soultimately, if my name's in the
book of life, I'm standing inline waiting for my moment of
judgment, and the angel looks upin the book to see if my name is
there. So technically I am. I'mpresent in that one, right?

(07:31):
Sure, sure. So the horror ofthat moment is that not
everyone's name is found writtenin the book of life, so I guess
basically the Great White ThroneJudgment is kind of a pass fail,
right? Either you're corruptedby sin or you have received the
anecdote for it, right? Eitheryou have like to use computer
language a virus in your systemthat hasn't been cured, and

(07:53):
therefore you must be destroyed,because the judgment of God is
not just about you and me. It'sabout destroying and cleansing
the universe of evil, okay, soanyone who's still stained with
evil or infected by it,corrupted by it, gets destroyed
in that judgment. And those ofus who've received the fix for
the corruption inside of us,right, who have received the

(08:15):
Holy Spirit, who've been giveneternal life based upon the
nature of God, our names arewritten in the book of life, and
we escape the judgment, becausejudgment fell on Jesus at the
cross. Okay? So in that case,Justice would be that you and I
would be punished for our sin,because God's going to destroy
all evil. And we have, we haveevil hearts, just like everybody

(08:38):
has an evil heart. Mercy is thatJesus took our place on the
cross and died in our place andpaid for our sin, so that we
don't have to be eternallyjudged and punished, and so our
names are written in the book oflife because we put our faith in
Christ, and that's the hope wehave for all of eternity. It's
the mercy and grace of God thatwe look forward to when we face
that great, great wet Thronejudgment, that we will escape

(09:01):
the flames of judgment and willenter into the kingdom of
heaven, right by the way,

Dave Leake (09:07):
we'll get back on topic in a minute, but I guess
this is still sort of on topic.
You were talking about losingthe perspective of eternity in
everyday life. I guess asChristians, I do think even
maybe for some people hearingthis about the judgment seat of
Christ and the Great WhiteThrone. I mean, the Great White
Throne of Judgment may literallybe like God's giant heavenly
throne that he sits on as everyperson passes in front of him to

(09:31):
receive this. That's like, notlike Norse mythology. You know
what? I mean? Yeah, it's notlike, That's Biblical. Yeah,
that's but it's biblical in thesense that it's literally going
to happen. I mean, it may besymbolic in some ways, but it's
a it is a chronological eventthat will take place in history,
that everybody will experience.

(09:52):
And I think this is part of whatwe're going to discuss today, is
the reality of these end timeevents. Does that make sense? I
don't

Jeff Leake (09:59):
even. Would you call an End Time Event? Well, the
Great White Throne of Judgmentis end time. It's ultimate end
time event, like, it's not likethe fulfillment of prophecy here
on earth end times. It's theactual last moments of of what
happens with the current heavensand earth, according to the
according to the scripture,right? But, yeah, here's, here's

(10:21):
what it says apocalyptic. Then,is that about? Yeah, yeah,
right, a pocket which definedthat word for us.

Dave Leake (10:28):
I will in a second.
I always think of apocalypticpocket lip tech as, you know,
having to do with, with the lastdays, with the end times, with
what's coming at the end of theworld. It refers to the, well,
this is, this is chat GPT.
Anyway, it refers to therevelation. We're now

(10:48):
incorporating this in our showsince the last

Jeff Leake (10:51):
episode, okay, let's just pause for a moment. The
last episode we did was on AIand the ethics of it in the
church, and what it's going tomean in the future. And we had
will host who did such anamazing job of describing that.
As we got ready to start thisepisode, you said to me, what?
Oh, I've

Dave Leake (11:05):
been using it. I've been using even more, even more,
probably every day I'm using itnow. Yeah. Okay. Anyway, the
term apocalyptic refers therevelation of widespread or
catastrophic destruction, oftenassociated with the future
period about people, comes fromthe Greek Greek word
apocalypsis, meaning revelationor uncovering, but essentially,
it's about what's going tohappen at the end of the heavens

(11:27):
and the earth. It's oftenreferred to in the time of
revelation apocalypticliterature or Daniel prophecies
about the end of the world. Butit probably also refers to the
judgment before we have thefinal resting you know of
heaven, the new heavens, NewEarth, permanent utopia,
paradise with God. And then youknow, destruction in hell. And

(11:49):
the description

Jeff Leake (11:50):
of the events that lead up to the end of all
things, right, there you go. Andthe beginning of something brand
new. I

Dave Leake (11:56):
think, I think the we could just say the
apocalypse, or whatever we wantto call it the end the I think
all of those things feelmythological, even to many
Christians. And I guess so we'regoing to talk about heavenly
reward. But part of the problemis, I think that we have become
so earthly minded that we don'tthink about heavenly things.

Jeff Leake (12:18):
Yeah, it's all about now, spiritual reality, about
now, it's about me. It's aboutwhat I feel.

Dave Leake (12:23):
It also can but even if we then make a Christian,
maybe, let's say it's about us.
It's about us and justice now,right? And it's about things
being us and reward now, yeah,it's about us and breaks here.
Now it's about as Earth as is inheaven. About earth, not about
heaven, right? Right?

Jeff Leake (12:40):
Right? About Earth specifically? Yeah, it's not
about the eventual things. It'sabout the immediate things. We
think of

Dave Leake (12:45):
heaven as a state of being that can exist now, but
not about the actual place andthe eventual reality that that
will be, yeah, or, I mean, wethink of people dying, going to
heaven, you know, we do, right?
So when

Jeff Leake (12:56):
someone is lost from us, we think one day we're all
going to get there and it'sgoing to be awesome. We'll have
wings, it's going to be better,it's going to be better than it
is. It is now. But yeah, I dothink we live in we live in a we
live in a world that's almostentrapped in an earthly
perspective

Dave Leake (13:12):
and also a naturalistic perspective. We've
had whole conversations aboutthe spiritual world and demonic
and angelic entities that arearound us all the time. That's

Jeff Leake (13:22):
true, some of our best and most listened to
episodes, actually, right?

Dave Leake (13:26):
But, but the fact that our world is heading
towards an end, yeah, a real endwhere Jesus will literally come
back on a white horse, yeah, andconquer evil and judge the
world, and it will be a terribletime for those that aren't in
Christ, and a wonderful timethose that are. That's a
reality. And so here's, here'swhat I was saying. Okay, let me,

(13:48):
let me try to frame where mymind is when you're talking
about your serious divinemetrics that's coming up. You
said people, some people, had analmost a visceral reaction when
discussing the idea of heaven,heavenly reward, because it sort
of feels a bit like prosperity.
Like, aren't we then just doingthings just for our own gain?
Like, isn't that the opposite ofthe Bible, where prosperity, you

(14:10):
know, gospel, the the famed evilthing happening in the West, in
America specifically, is theidea of give more because you're
going to get a yacht. You knowwhat? I mean, like tithe because
you're gonna get more blessings.
And it's all about, it's allabout our best life. Now, that's
the idea, I guess, that peoplepush back against with,

Jeff Leake (14:32):
and that somehow Christianity is just a recipe
for prosperity. Exactly, youlose the aspects of die to
yourself and suffer for Christ,and, you know, sell it all and
give it all away and live forsomething other than just the
acquisition of more wealth orproperty or or blessing. Whereas

Dave Leake (14:50):
heavenly reward is sort of the opposite idea,
right? It's, it's working for areward, but not a prosperity
earthly reward. It's working fora heavenly reward. I. I think
part of the reason why we're sodetached from that in culture is
because we're detached from theactual idea of heaven or the end
times and all this stuff. Imean, we were just talking about

(15:12):
this, and I think we've had aconversation at some point
about, you know, the end timesand stuff we've talked about
probably even recently, like theera of the 90s and 2000s you
know, I think of the left behindbooks series,

Jeff Leake (15:25):
yeah. So I grew up in the 70s, in an era where
Jesus, that's what it's called,yeah, thief in the night movie,
where the rapture happens andand you weren't ready, and
you're left behind to endure thetribulation of the Antichrist,
and you're, you know, beingthreatened to take the mark of
the beast, and you're runningfor your life. Okay, that was
sort of the movie and the vibeof all what we would call, you

(15:48):
know, pre millennial, pretribulation theologians at the
time and teaching at the time.
However, it was more than thatfor me, like I heard so many
messages growing up about oneday I'm going to stand before
God, like about the ultimatejudgment that that I lived with
a constant awareness that myevery second mattered, yeah,
like my every decision mattered.

(16:11):
Like my God wasn't just watchingwhether or not he's going to
punish me or not, because I wasalso taught that Jesus Christ
took the punishment for my sin.
But But after that, afterreceiving forgiveness, I was the
Scripture challenges to live alife worthy of what you've
received. And then if you do,one day, you're going to hear
the words, well done good, mygood and faithful servant, and
you're going to receive yourreward in heaven. And so for me,

(16:33):
like the accountability of thefact that I'm going to one day
be evaluated for how I'm livingwas constantly up in my face.
And I guess I wonder, I'mwondering if somehow that's been
lost from the Christian vibe. Sohere's what I was going to say
earlier, the Great White Throne.

(16:56):
Let's just stay there for amoment. Here's what it says in
Revelation chapter 20, I saw agreat white throne, and him who
was seated on it. And listen tothis, the earth and the heavens
fled from his presence. So italmost gives you this ultra
dramatic moment that it's soawesome and so holy and so
overwhelming that everythingflees from him like warps

(17:17):
reality. Yes, like he and sohere we are standing before and
I saw the dead, great and small,standing before the throne, and
the books were opened. So thisis moment where, okay, it's our
time now to be evaluated. God'sgetting ready to reboot the
earth, chapter 21 and 22 ofRevelation. But before he does,

(17:37):
he's going to judge. And it saysanother book is open, which is
the book of life. And the deadwere judged according to what
they had done, meaning thosethat are have died and are
standing before God as recorded,recorded in the books. And the
seed gave up the dead that werein it, and death and Hades gave
up the dead that were in them.
And each person was judgedaccording to what they had done,
Then death and Hades were throwninto the lake of fire. Okay, so

(17:58):
this is one of the mostpenetrating, intimidating
moments that's described for usin the Scripture. And just
reading those verses about, youknow, the earth and the sea
fleeing from him and the holypresence of an almighty. But
this is, this is the ultimatemoment that that one day, you
know, what does it say? Hebrews,chapter nine, verse 27 It's

(18:19):
appointed to for for a persononce to die, and then comes the
judgment we're all going to havethis moment in time in our life.
Now, the hope that I have thisdoesn't hold terror for me,
because I know my name iswritten in the book of life. I
put my faith in Jesus Christ. Iknow he died on the cross to pay
for my sin. I know he rose fromthe grave to give me the hope
that when I die, I'm also goingto experience a resurrection, so

(18:40):
I'm confident My name is in thebook of life, and I'm not going
into that moment, while I willhave a huge awe for who God is
and being in his presence, I'mnot worried about the fear of
judgment because of the graceand mercy of Jesus Christ. Now I
think what's happened is thereisn't there is a second judgment
that we all go through, forthose of us that are going into

(19:03):
heaven now, there's a secondjudgment we experienced. And I
think we take the grace andmercy moment of the first
judgment and we bleed it overinto the second judgment, where
actually you are objectivelyjudged on what you've done with
your life, not so to bepunished, but to be rewarded.
Yeah, the second judgment is ajudgment of reward, right and

(19:23):
grace and mercy at that momentare not as much a factor. It's
now objective. It's like, whathave you done with your life?
What did you do with your money?
What did you do with your time?
How did you use your gifts? Didyou just waste it all? Or will
you have something to offer Godat that time? I actually think
that's part of what the rewardis. So wait, wait,

Dave Leake (19:46):
don't, don't go to the word describe how grace and
mercy aren't apart, aren't apart of us. It's more objective.
Okay, well, expand on that, thenyou get into the reward. But
yeah, so All right, brushingthat too quick, yeah.

Jeff Leake (19:58):
So I'm. Let me look up a verse and give me your
reaction to that. What do youknow? What I mean by that? So, I
mean none of us can do anythingapart from the grace of God. So
ultimately, his grace is there,but we do have a choice that has
to be made. And and so, um,yeah,

Dave Leake (20:14):
so you're talking about so Second Corinthians 510,
says, For we must all appearbefore the judgment seat of
Christ, so that each of May,each of us, may receive what is
due for the things done in body,whether good or bad. Yeah, is
good or bad, you know, I thinkI'll find this reference. But I
think Peter talks about how somethings are like things we're

(20:35):
talking about trial, trials, butsome things are going to be, you
know, burnt away, like chat,yeah.

Jeff Leake (20:40):
Well, here's, here's, here's what it is. So
first, Corinthians, chapterthree, verse 10, by the grace
God has given me, I laid afoundation as a wise builder.
Okay, so grace is involvedthere, because we can't do
anything, sure, unless we'vereceived grace. Right? And then
it says, If anyone builds onthis foundation using gold,
silver and costly stones, wood,hay or straw, their work will be

(21:02):
shown for what it is, becausethe day, capital D, right, the
day, which is talking aboutJudgment Day, will bring it to
light. It will be revealed withfire, and the fire will test the
quality of each person's work.
If what has been built with yourlife survives, the builder will
receive a reward, yeah. If it'sburned up, the builder will
suffer loss, but yet will besaved, even though, as one

(21:26):
escaping through the flames

Dave Leake (21:31):
just made it in by the skin of their teeth, yeah.
So

Jeff Leake (21:33):
some people will make it into heaven empty
handed, right? And other peoplewill make it into heaven and and
their life will be revealed asbeing a life that's filled with
lasting things like, you know,not actual silver or gold,
right, or precious stones, butsomething resembling that, that

(21:54):
you know, lasting value will bethe result of your life. So
we're all going to look back,and we're either going to be
like, Man, did I wish I could goback and do that again, because
I wasted my life, or, man, Ilive well, right? And so what
I've done matters for eternity.
And this is the second judgment,which is so when the fire judges

(22:18):
the wood, hay and stubble,there's no mercy in that it just
is consumed. And when it judgesthe gold, silver and precious
stones, there's no grace in thatit just it just has inherent
value to it. So your life willhave an inherent worthlessness
or an inherent value that willget revealed at that second

(22:39):
judge.

Dave Leake (22:41):
So meaning this is not so much an issue of judgment
for sin. No, this is justjudgment for good and bad
actions, and it determines thestatus and possessions and
responsibilities and lifeultimately that you have on the
other side. Actually, Hebrewsdescribes some people being
martyred in worse ways toreceive a better resurrection.

(23:04):
Yeah, that and Hebrews 11,right? It does where it says. Or
I'll pull this up really quick.
It's Hebrews 1135 and it's thiswhole chapter about faith. Let's
see. Here's what it says thisI'll just read starting in verse
32 what more shall I say? I donot have time to tell about
Gideon Barak, Samson, Jephthah,about David and Samuel and the

(23:24):
prophets who, through faith,conquered kingdoms, administered
justice it was promised, whoshut the mouths of lion lions,
quenched the fury of flames,then escaped the edge of a
sword, whose weakness was turnedto strength and who became
powerful in battle and routedforeign armies. Women received
back of their dead race of lifeagain. There were others who
were tortured, refusing to bereleased so that they might gain

(23:46):
an even better resurrection.
Some faced jeers and floggingand even changed in
imprisonment. They were put todeath by stoning. They were
sawed in two. They were killedby the sword. They went about in
sheepskins and goat skins,destitute, persecuted,
mistreated. The world was notworthy of them. They wandered in
deserts and mountains, living incaves and in holes and in the

(24:07):
ground. And then it says thesewere all commended by their
further faith. Yet none of themreceived what had been promised,
since God had planned somethingbetter for us, so that only
together with us would they bemade perfect. It's all talking
about this idea of the lifepeople lived by faith, expecting
something better than what theycould possibly receive here on
Earth, but the end of that whereit's like they were tortured,

(24:27):
refusing to be released so theymight gain an even better
resurrection. Jeez, that'scrazy, yeah.

Jeff Leake (24:36):
Does it feel the same way? That's a complete
opposite way of thinking fromour current culture, right?
Yeah.

Dave Leake (24:41):
They're like, here, we're done torching you. You can
go. And they're like, no, justkill me. I'd rather be martyred
because,

Jeff Leake (24:47):
no, I actually think it was more like them saying, If
you deny Jesus, we'll let yougo. That's the idea. Okay, okay,
yeah. And, and they said, No,I'm not going to because. They
did not want to get on the otherside and look Jesus in the eye
and say, I quit on you. Yeah.

Dave Leake (25:06):
They were stoned, sawed in two, killed by the
sword, persecuted andmistreated. I love how it says
the world was not worthy ofthem, but they did it because of
what had been promised, becauseGod had planned something better
for us together. That's cool,yeah. And I do think we've
totally lost that. I think evenwithin not just Christian
circles, not casual culturalChristian circles, I think

(25:29):
radical Christian circles havelost and

Jeff Leake (25:31):
so, so I have some theories about what the reward
looks like. Can I unpack that?
Yeah, let's do it. Okay. So Idon't think it's like everyone
gets to heaven and they get acredit card, and you happen to
have a lot of money loaded onyours, because you did really
good, and other people are flatbroke, and they have to scrape
through for all of eternity. Idon't think, I don't think it's
the same kind of reward that wethink of here, okay, one, one

(25:53):
type of the reward, I think, iswe get recognition. So Jesus
looks at us and says, Wow, welldone. I'm so proud of you. Now,
there's a difference between Hislove and His approval, right?
So, so you know, just to be ableto know like, like Paul talks

(26:14):
about live a life worthy of whatJesus has done for you. So part
of the reward is that we willget to bring with us whatever we
have influenced right peoplethat we've won, to Christ and
impacts we've made in the worldwhere, where we're able, Jesus
is able to say to us, you seethis whole crowd of people over

(26:35):
here, these people who wouldn'thave made it into heaven without
without your obedience. Yeah,thank you for what you did,
because your life made adifference. Look, look at what
happened as a result of how youlived. Wow. Yeah. So I think
first it's, it's the recognitionJesus will give us an atta boy,
a well done atta girl, you,you've done good. I'm so proud

(26:58):
of you. Look, look at yourinheritance, right? It's not
like just cash money or a biggermansion, like, I think sometimes
we've perverted what this momentof reward will look like into
earthly it's almost like we'vetaken the prosperity concepts of
Earth and put it into heaven,right? Okay, so I don't think
so. Here's the second one andthat. So the first one is, we

(27:22):
would say, is recognition fromJesus. The second one is
responsibility. So this is oneof the things that we talked
about when we had our heaven andhell episodes couple years ago,
Dave, is that peoplemisunderstand heaven as sort of
a blah, boring place where yousit on a cloud with a harp and a
really bad outfit. Yeah, right,and you're just there worshiping
and there's nothing else goingon. Well, the new heavens and

(27:44):
the new earth will be much likethe current heavens and current
Earth, but just better,indestructible. And we'll be in
a resurrected body, but we'llstill be working and building
things and creating things, anddesigning things and overseeing
things. And one of the thingsthat we see in the parable of
the talents and the minus, thethe stories that Jesus tells in

(28:05):
the one, I think it's in theLuke, the book of Luke, where
he's talking about the perilparable of the minus, minus,
meaning this, this um componentof money that he gave to these
325, stewards. Matthew, 25 isthe talents. There's one in Luke
that is similar. Got it anyway,when he says, you know, you've
been faithful in a little thingsnow, so you multiplied your five

(28:28):
to 10. And then the response is,now take charge of 10 cities. So
part of the reward will be thatyou're you're considered
trustworthy in heaven, and thatGod can give you more weight and
responsibility to carry becauseyou've earned the right for that
in the way that you lived hereon this earth, like if you've

(28:50):
been faithful with small things,you'll be entrusted with much.
Well, that's true here on Earth,right? Like God will give you
more. It's actually interestingin these, in these parables,
Dave, that he actually saysabout the person who wasted
their their talent or minor,take from that one and give it
to the one that has 10, whichseems, seems unjust, but really
it's more a matter of trust,like this guy is going to

(29:12):
handle. I think

Dave Leake (29:14):
it seems just, it just seems cold, it seems okay.
There you go. So,

Jeff Leake (29:19):
so I think part of what we get in heaven is we get
responsibility. We get thatsounds almost like a curse, like
I don't want responsibilityheaven. I'm going to be up there
to party, but no, you will, youactually will want to be
recognized, and you will want tohave something of value that
you're doing for all ofeternity. And there's, there's
something with that that is,that is really powerful. So I

(29:42):
think, I think that's anotherone of those things. So we get
recognized, we get we get moreresponsibility when we get to
heaven. That's, that's anotherone of these pieces. I think
there's also riches. You know,Jesus actually teaches this
principle. And when I was askedthis question about, you know,
isn't this prosperity teaching?
If you look at Matthew. Chaptersix, verse 19, it says, Don't
store up for yourselves.

(30:02):
Treasures on earth, yeah, right,where moths and vermin destroy
and where thieves break in andsteal, but, But store up for
yourselves. Treasures in heaven.
So there's something about of ofsome kind of treasure, right,
something of value that somekind of riches that you will
have doesn't necessarily mean abigger house or a bigger
whatever it

Dave Leake (30:22):
might it could. You know, Matthew 1929 where it
says, and everyone who has lefthouses is one of them, just
talking about house, houses,brothers, sisters, Father,
mothers or children or fields,which is also possession for my
sake, will receive 100 times asmuch and will receive will
inherit eternal life. So Matthew2919 29 says, yeah, so there,

(30:44):
there does, so you

Jeff Leake (30:45):
get to heaven, and Jesus says, You have done so
good. You get your own country,right, right?

Dave Leake (30:51):
Like, yeah, country sounds like a lot, but because
10 cities is what, like the topone did, but country, maybe some
people or, yeah, who knows? But,it

Jeff Leake (31:00):
does give you this feeling like whatever happens
here on earth seals you ineternity with that, yes, like
there is upward mobility here,but once you get there, I don't
know if it's that limiting.
Yeah, are you able then to say,well, now for the rest of
eternity, I'm going to dobetter. But it does seem to

(31:21):
indicate like it is appointedfor a person once to live and
die and then to face judgment.
Like it almost gives you thisfeeling that what you do here is
what you're going to have fromis what you're going to have. I

Dave Leake (31:37):
mean, indicates that a lot. Yeah, it's almost

Jeff Leake (31:39):
like, it's almost like, once you have spent a life
building this kind of character,whether that be good, reliable
character, or really poor andlazy character, you're sort of,
you're sort of that, right. Youmight be saved, you're saved,
but you're sort of that and andnow you're going to move into
your permanent, eternal,eternal, millions and millions

(32:02):
of years of life, and you'regonna be sealed in that
condition.

Dave Leake (32:08):
CS Lewis's great divorce has a really good
picture of those things. Yeah,it does. Also of hell too. Yeah,
it does. It's this guy who getson this tour bus and gets to go
tour Hell, where people areexisting in a permanent,
miserable state, amplified likethe way they were in life, that
they were bitter in life. Nowthey're way more bitter if they
were greedy or, you know, theyalways were a victim, or they're

(32:31):
always complaining, whatever itis. Now that's, that's one of my
favorite books, and then inheaven, it's like the best
version, like you become evenmore of more robust,

Jeff Leake (32:39):
more alive, more filled with happiness and joy,
there's just Yeah. So I don'tknow how this works. It's hard
for me to get my head aroundthis, that somehow formation is
now, and in heaven, it's thatformation piece is over.

Dave Leake (32:58):
You solidified, crystallize into what you were
becoming, and then God gives youthings. I also that means, like,
do you get, like, superpowersthat are different if you You're
stronger than, like, Mario Kartyou've collected? Yeah, you're a
better you're a better athletenow you're better looking. Well,
I mean, I know everybody's hadpeople

Jeff Leake (33:18):
like, Well, look, you're in heaven. Does it really
matter? But definitely does, butit but if you think, yeah, okay,
so we could say that like youlive in America, does it really
matter? Like it's the wealthiestcountry that ever existed? Does
it really matter? But it doesmatter, yeah, and so yes, thank
god we'll be in heaven. ThankGod we will have escaped hell.
But you know the picture thatPaul gives of what you've done

(33:41):
with your life to watch it burn.
Can you think about that momentlike and you look back and you
say, all those years that Ispent and it meant, and that's,
it's just smoke now, I thinkthat's,

Dave Leake (33:57):
it's also going to be embarrassing. I think that's
one of the things that I alwaysfelt. And maybe that's not even,
I think it is the right emotion,though, where it's like Be
careful, you know how you live,or where Jesus says you'll be
judged by every word that comesout of your mouth, or judged on
every little thing. So I dothink so. Let's

Jeff Leake (34:15):
recap you so you get, you get a recognition right
from the what you've done, andyou get you get responsibility,
and you get riches. I'malliterating now, and I'm doing
this without the powers of chatGPT, just for the record. And
then you get less regret. Thatwould be the last art like you
have no regret. Like, can youimagine entering in heaven and

(34:36):
you say, I have no regrets forthe how I lived? Like I wasn't
asked to be burned at the stake,but I did. I did raise five
children, and I and I took everyopportunity that I had to share
Christ with people, and I wasfaithful with the resources I
was given, like and I don't, andwith the with the opportunities

(34:57):
and talents I had, I used to. Iused every moment well, and I
don't have regret. I'm sure mostof us will be a mix, like, we'll
see some wood, hay and stubble,and be like, oh, man, that was
that decade wasn't good, youknow what I mean. And

Dave Leake (35:12):
here's the other thing too. What I would say is,
like, the this is so if we'velost some things from American
Christianity, and I'm nottalking about like in the
negative way, say AmericanChristianity. I'm talking about
even the best parts. If we'velost some things, maybe it's
living with a awareness ofheaven, heavenly rewards,

(35:35):
spiritual realities. But I alsothink we're living without that
countdown of, I don't even knowhow long I'll have, yeah,

Jeff Leake (35:44):
because, like, wake up every day realizing today
could be your last if

Dave Leake (35:47):
we Yeah, but if we have the entirety of our lives,
whether or not that is 80 years,or it's 50 years, or how we have
the entirety of our lives, andwe know, like, Oh, he's not
coming for five generations,then like, you sort of have this
illusion of, I have time. But ifhe could come, if he could come
tomorrow, like today, reallymatters. You know what I'm

(36:08):
saying? Sure, I think it reallymatters anyway. But I remember
when we were at grandpa'smemorial service, and what his
name, Mr. Apple. Apple NorthHeath? Yeah, he was talking
about how he was putting on akids summer VBS camp, and it was

(36:28):
given a really hard time. And hewas on a stage, I guess, at
Monroeville assembly, and he wassaying to grandpa, like, Man,
I'm just so stressed out. Like,I hope Jesus comes back soon.
And grandpa was like, I expecthim by lunchtime. Say that a
lot. My dad, yeah, that that'sgone now, yeah, but that's that
feels like a cool thing, like tome,

Jeff Leake (36:47):
or or in the early church, because they were going
through such suffering. So Iactually think one of the
reasons why we lack thisawareness is because we are in
such an affluent society. So inthe early church, where they
were. They were suffering. Theywere losing jobs. They were
being kicked out of families.
They were be threatened with,with martyrdom, with death,
because they were followingChrist, they would say to each

(37:10):
other on a regular basis,Maranatha, like that was their
greeting, which means, Even so,come quickly Lord Jesus, like it
was the hope. Like Man, theywere, how are you? Oh, man, it's
been really tough. Like, wejust, we have, we've, we've
been, we've been trying toscrape by. I lost my job because
I'm a follower of Jesus. And didyou hear just the town over that
the pastor there was killed andand they say, Yeah, I know. But

(37:33):
stay strong. Man marrying outthat Jesus is coming soon. Like,
for those who are in this worldand are suffering. The Return of
Jesus is something that theylong for. For those who are in
this world and are notsuffering, but are sort of like
living in opulence andaffluence, the return of Jesus
is like, Well, I hope he doesn'tcome back too soon, right?

(37:56):
Because I got stuff going onhere, so it's possible. I mean,
isn't it true the story Jesustells about the rich man and
Lazarus, that the rich manenjoyed the rewards here, and
Lazarus will get them later,right? So there is a certain
degree that life of ease and anabsolute

Dave Leake (38:15):
quickly, but it's a parable. Jesus tells, right
parable? Right? Where there's,there's a poor, leprous man that
was begging, yeah, he wasbegging at the rich man's table.
Was always rejected, and therich man ends up in hell, and
Lazarus ends up in heaven. Andwhat did she just say again? He
said.

Jeff Leake (38:33):
He said, So Lazarus, well, he had nothing in this
life, enjoys the pleasures ofheaven in the next, and you had
everything in your earthly life,and now are without now, it's
not that poor people go toheaven and rich people don't.
Jesus was more just contrastinghow we think about eternity.

(38:56):
That's one of, one of theintense stories that Jesus ever
tells about heaven and hell,that one Lazarus and the rich
man, if you want to look it up,yeah. But okay, so I actually
asked chat GPT a question. Oh,there you go. So here was the
question that I asked. Why dopeople believe in God's judgment
anymore? That was my question,and they gave me seven answers.

(39:16):
Anything good? Huh? Any of themgood? Okay, so the first one is
a cultural shift towardstolerance and individualism,
true. Modern Culture valuespersonal freedom and self
expression, often resisting theidea that anyone, even God, has
the right to judge

Dave Leake (39:31):
true, good. Okay, agreed. Chat. Thank you. A

Jeff Leake (39:34):
distorted view of God's character. Many people
emphasize God's love to theexclusion of His Holiness,
justice and wrath, true. WhileGod's love is real and Central,
Scripture portrays his love andjustice as inseparable. God
wouldn't judge me, quote,unquote, has become a comforting
but unbiblical mantra, true,okay? Number three, the lack of
teaching on the topic. Somechurches avoid preaching on sin,

(39:57):
hell and judgment out of fear ofoffending people or losing a 10.
Attendance. As a result, manybelievers grow up with a shallow
or incomplete theology unawareof the seriousness of sin or the
coming judgment. Chat GPT ishitting it on the head and some
butt right. Number four,misunderstanding grace. The
message of grace can bemisinterpreted as a license to
sin or an excuse to ignore God'sstandards. True, Grace does not

(40:21):
eliminate judgment. It providesa way through to Jesus to be
saved from it. Preach. Numberfive, the influence of secular
worldviews, naturalism,humanism, post modernism
definitely have led people toreject the supernatural,
including the idea of a divineaccountability. Live Your Truth
has replaced submit to God'struth. Wow,

Dave Leake (40:40):
wow. This is good.
Just let this thing do apodcast. Number

Jeff Leake (40:44):
six, discomfort with eternal consequences. The idea
of hell or eternal separationfrom God is emotionally
difficult, so people prefer tobelieve it isn't real. By the
way, I do think that's one ofthe things. Even with the
judgment for a reward, we don'tlike to think about it. It's
like, I know I have a testcoming up and I should study,

(41:04):
but it's really causing me tofeel pressure, so I'm gonna do
something else and try todistract myself. Which is, which
is really dangerous, actually,not necessarily, for your
upcoming test. Well, both, but,yeah, it can be right, the
Terrible idea for a test. Okay,the final point according to
chat GPT number seven, hardenhearts or willful ignorance.
Wow. Some people don't want tobe accountable, so they deny,

(41:27):
ignore, or ignore the idea ofjudgment. So which, which one do
you want to cook on from thosethat we didn't hit? I'll let you
pick. Since you were listeningto them and I was reading them,
well, I didn't write them down.
You gotta Yeah, okay, so I'llquickly cultural shift towards
tolerance and individualism, adistorted view of God's
character, lack of teaching onthe topic, misunderstanding
grace, influence of secularworldview, discomfort with

(41:48):
eternal consequences, orhardened heart. Let's

Dave Leake (41:53):
do discomfort with eternal consequences. Okay,
yeah, I think a lot of the otherones we've kind of, and we
probably have hit all of those,at least notes of all of those
already on this so

Jeff Leake (42:04):
here's the part I didn't read. Some adopt
universalism, everyone is savedor annihilation, no eternal
punishment as alternatives. Soannihilationism

Dave Leake (42:15):
is that, rather than eternal suffering, people are
just obliterated, are destroyed.
And there are some scripturesthat make it seem like that
could be the case, which wouldbe a much more pleasant ending.
But there are many that don'tmake it seem like that. Yeah,
and we're

Jeff Leake (42:33):
not even really talking about the hell part.
We're talking about the we'retalking now to Christians who
will go to heaven and be emptyhanded,

Dave Leake (42:41):
which also, I think I still so let's, let's talk
about why that's uncomfortable.
Yeah, I think, I mean, we'vetalked a lot about, we had a
whole podcast called, hasChristianity gone soft, right? I
think it has. Basically, I thinkmy, I don't know what my answer
was in that podcast, but yes, Ido think it has, and I think
that the hard things okay,because I think, I think when I

(43:05):
when you think of hardChristianity as opposed to soft,
to me, there's a way to overplay into suffering, to where
it's like the goal is suffering,and it almost makes it a
distorted version ofChristianity in a wrong way,
like we call that. What are thepoverty gospel? You know, it's
not suffering as a part of life.

(43:25):
It's the goal to be somethinglike that. But I do, I think
there's something man, there'ssomething refreshing. There's
something needed about thesobriety of the fact that Jesus
could come back at any time, andthat he is going to judge you,
and that we're going to bejudged for good and bad. Like

(43:46):
we're not just like, Well, yeah,but thankfully, grace covers all
that, so I don't even have toworry about this stuff. Like,
someday I'm gonna have to standbefore God, which I guess I'm
looking forward to. But I'm alsolike, wow, that will be tough
for some things to have to talkabout every small thing I said
or did, or, you know what Imean, although I don't

Jeff Leake (44:05):
know that you're going to be reviewed down to the
detail, like, stood up almostnaked in front of the whole
world, to, well, maybe evaluateevery, every aspect of it. At
least. I think it will be, Ithink it will become obvious. I
I think, honestly, I'm almostwondering if it's going to be
this moment where you stand on apedestal and the spotlight

(44:26):
shines on your head and all, allof everyone who's ever lived you
know stares at you and a movieof your life is played. And you
know, I don't know that it'sgoing to be that trouble, not
public humiliation, no. Right,right? But I think it'll be
obvious like, Okay, let me giveyou a fifth R in my in my

(44:46):
concept of rewards, right? Sowhat? What do we say? We said,
We said riches was one. We saidrecognition was one,
responsibility is one, and thenliving with no regrets. Okay,
here's another one, and that'srelationships. Mm. Yeah. I think
one of the ways that we'll knowour reward is how many people we
brought with us. Sure. So partof my reward is seeing my family

(45:07):
in heaven.

Dave Leake (45:09):
Yeah, but you're doing, you're doing the same
thing though, that we're talkingabout, what's that we're talking
about? The bad part, what? Sothat's comfortable. Do you know
what I'm saying? Like, though,but

Jeff Leake (45:18):
think about like that. Like, so if you, if you
haven't brought anyone, okay,okay, sure, right. So, so, like,
rather than it being like, Okay,this is the moment of judgment,
I think it's going to be sort oflike you're in heaven. And now
you look around and you realize,oh, man, I didn't bring anybody.
Like, my life will be like suchlittle influence, like, there

Dave Leake (45:40):
will be regret?
Like, oh, I could have talked tothis person, and I could have,
like, you know, almost like yourSchindler's List,

Jeff Leake (45:45):
yeah, like the Schindler's List, right, where
he saves, what, over 1000 peoplefrom being taken into
concentration camps. And thenafter the war is over, he
realizes, he looks down and hesees his ring, and he's like,
Oh, one more line I could have,if I had just sold this. I could
have used to, could have, couldhave, because remember what we
will have just seen. Well, seen,we'll have seen the the Great

(46:07):
White Throne moment. And we'llsee, you know, Hades open in the
in the lake of fire. And we'llall of a sudden have a complete
perspective of everything thatreally mattered, right? And and
then we'll look back and we'lllook at our life, and we'll
think, oh, man, I did notunderstand what this life was

(46:28):
really all about. Yeah, likeI've been living like life was
just all about me and how muchfun I can have. And really it's,
it's all about God, and it'sabout trying to reconnect as
many people to him as possible,and I've been living for fun,
and really what I what I wassupposed to be living for, was
something of a greater purpose.
Because what matters most to Godis people, sure. And there's so

(46:48):
many people that I could, oh, Icould have I could use my I
could use my gifts. I could usethat time, all that time I spent
playing video games or watchingTV or or working

Dave Leake (46:59):
for more money or high on drugs, whatever. Yeah,
whatever. So here's,

Jeff Leake (47:04):
here's what can get real heavy if you live so much
under that pressure, you can bebut this

Dave Leake (47:08):
is the, this is the impulse that pulls it off.
That's true. Like I somethingthat I always admire about you.
You always talk because I don'tthink about this nearly as much.
And I do mean this, like,because you laughed what I was
saying this. But you're always,you always think about, you
know, when Jesus said, like Abruised reed He won't break
right? Think that's your heartmost of the time you've talked

(47:31):
about, like, I don't want toput, you know, there's a single
mom who's just barely making it.
I don't want her to come in andget crushed by this message or
this podcast. But you also don'twant to not have the proper
weight of what actually

Jeff Leake (47:44):
is. Yeah, no, I actually think there were
moments when I was growing up,when I was looking at the
possibility of the return ofChrist, or that I might die
soon, or what the reality ofhell was, or that it caused
genuine fear in me, and some ofthat, if not correctly handled,
could end up in a neurosis, abad kind of fear, but some of it

(48:09):
brought me to repentance. Yeah,it's a holy fear, yeah, some
degree and it and it caused meto make decisions about how I
wanted to spend the rest of mylife. Yeah, that if I hadn't
been confronted with thoserealities, I'm not sure I would
have decided to do what I'vedone. Yeah, and so holy fear,
which brings you to a place ofrepentance, so that you can live

(48:32):
a life without regret, is reallywhat

Dave Leake (48:34):
we're after here.
Yeah. So what was number sixfrom that? AI like discomfort
with eternal consequences. Sohere's the discomfort that I was
talking about. I know it's noteverybody you ever know is
looking at a reel of your mostembarrassing, sinful moments,
but you know Jesus says inMatthew 1236, but I tell you
that everyone will have to givean account on the day of
judgment for every empty word,every word they have spoken.

(48:56):
That's not general themes, andit's not people that's I
shouldn't have said that to mywife or my kids or my boss, you
know, or I shouldn't have saidthat. Yes, not just two people.
I shouldn't have said thatbehind that person,

Jeff Leake (49:13):
what's being done in secret will be shouted from the
housetops like everything getsrevealed and exposed.

Dave Leake (49:18):
Yeah, there. I think it is a holy fear kind of a
thing to have to have a pause,like, should I say this stuff?
Because it's like, we could belike, it's not that big of a
deal. I don't even mean it.
Those are empty words, but Jesussays, On the Day of Judgment,
you'll give an account for everyempty word you have spoken.

Jeff Leake (49:37):
So there's a lot more to this moment of judgment
than we realize. It was prettybig part of Jesus's theology,
huge part, yeah, and, and welike to soft pedal that idea
that one day, hey, listen, oneday you'll, you'll give an
account for that like thatalmost feels like, like, harsh,

(49:58):
just saying, just saying. WhatJesus was saying, Yeah, sounds
harsh in our culture, because wehave become a little bit soft to
those realities. But it actuallyis not unloving to point out to
people a reality that is areality, yeah, is going to
happen? Like, it's be moreunloving for me as a pastor, not

(50:19):
to tell you about that reality.
Like, I wouldn't want you to endup, at the end of your life
standing before God in judgmentand look, look at me sideways,
as your pastor, and be like, Whydid you tell me this was gonna
happen? Yeah? Like, if I hadonly known, like, okay, it's not
going to be totally myresponsibility, because you have

(50:39):
a Bible, like, you can read itfor yourself. However, I think
warning people is a part of ourrole as pastors, right? It's the
warning component of pastoralministry is probably
underplayed.

Dave Leake (50:52):
You know, I think you and your generation feels
like it's more negative than itfeels to my generation. Okay? I
actually think there's somethingattractional and refreshing,
partly because

Jeff Leake (51:03):
we got the warning, plus a load of guilt and
legalism. Probably yeah so, andpart of us is like, I don't want
to do that to my kids, yeah, orthe people that I lead. But I've
actually been watching more andmore clips from Pastor Philip.
We did Mitchell. PhilipMitchell, man, that guy's, yeah,

(51:25):
but on fire. He

Dave Leake (51:27):
says it, and it's so, so, you know, I'm thinking
about all this stuff because I'mabout to start my own church,
and I don't think it's, I don'tthink it's even, I don't even
think it's a turn off to guess.
I don't think it's, well, okay,but so I was watching this one,
you could say your clip, but Idon't think it's a turn off the
guest to say, to say, look, youknow, like, like, you know, why
do this, or why make thissacrifice? Like, yes, there's

(51:50):
benefits, but ultimately, it'sbecause one day we're all gonna
stand before God and thatmatters. Yeah, and I don't want
anybody to be, you know, gutpunched by this, like, God is
actually watching. There is moreat stake than just lunch after
church. There's more at stakethan just healthy relationships,
than just Yeah, yeah, yeah.

(52:12):
Like, like, there's, there is areal judgment coming, and we
just need to be aware of that. Ithink the tone matters, saying
that in a way of like, let'sjust be aware of this. It's dill
that then you are awful andwicked and you're going to be
judged in some way. Okay, wait,

Jeff Leake (52:28):
listen, so I was listening to Philip Mitchell
talk. Sure, I saw this littleclip, and he was, he was going
out. It was like, Look, ifyou're a Christian and you're
messing around with popularculture, and you listen to some
of these musicians, you didn'tname him, some of these
musicians who sing demoniclyrics, basically, I mean, I'm
probably not doing this justiceright. And he went on, like, you

(52:50):
think you're gonna do this isnot gonna have effect on you?
Like, I mean, he was, he washammering it. And as he was
preaching, a whole row of peoplegot up and left, yeah. And he
was like, go ahead and leave.
Like, that was his response. Andif some of you want to get up
and leave, it's okay with me,because he said, I'm not up here
preaching to build a crowd.

(53:11):
Yeah, I'm up here preaching totell you the truth. I love it.
Wow. He is. I'm telling you hisvoice right now. It, it, it has,
I think it has the right mix.
Yes, I, I aspire to that mix. Ilove what I hear from him. He I
think there's a unique anointingon him for it. So, I don't know
that anybody can reproduceexactly what he's but his church
is blowing up and exploding. Ithasn't actually caused people to

(53:35):
leave. It's actually causedpeople to decide, like they're
all in, or they're not. Yes,that's, that's what, I think
there's a hunger for that. Yeah.
I think some people almost wouldrather come in and be offended
and leave, but then think aboutcoming back, yeah, maybe because
at least they know it's like,well, that's, that's the, that's

(53:57):
the real thing. Yes, I don'tknow if I want the difference
between demeaning somebody or orspeaking down to somebody, and
then just preaching truth, yes,yeah. And

Dave Leake (54:07):
I think, I think reason I'll frame one more time.
The reason we're talking aboutall this is because there is
eternity that's coming. There isa return of Christ, there is a
rapture, there is a finaljudgment there. There are
heavenly rewards that we canearn or totally miss out on. We
will be judged for all thesethings, whether good or bad,
there

Jeff Leake (54:27):
will be justice.
Your life may be justice. Everymoment counts, even the moments
that are hidden to you that seemlike no one's watching and wait,

Dave Leake (54:35):
not every moment counts in the so enjoy life and
squeeze the juice out of everymoment counts for eternity.
Every moment now counts forlater, changing

Jeff Leake (54:44):
that diaper in the middle of the night when you
want to go to sleep, but you'redoing it because you're raising
your son or daughter, and you'redoing it with a good attitude,
and you're worshiping your waythrough that moment that matters
for your eternity,

Dave Leake (54:56):
turning the other cheek, yeah, when you have a
antagonist. Boss or somebody,yeah, not biting back. There are
so many different things likethis also, you know, I'm glad

Jeff Leake (55:07):
for this like so this the side of it is, if
you've been living your lifewell and you've been maybe
you've been taken advantage ofby somebody, it feels like
they're getting away with it,and you're doing your best to be
forgiving and to love God and beobedient. It still seems like
the scale is tilted towardsthose that are doing their own
thing. There is somethingincredibly motivating around the
fact that one day this evensout, like one day God will

(55:31):
avenge this, and if I don't getit all here in this life, that
doesn't matter. I'd rather haveit then anyway, like I'm gonna
have a better resurrection,because I'm choosing this. To
me, there's a justice componentof it that's really beautiful,
yeah. And the more you livewell, as unto God, the more you

(55:52):
look forward to that moment.
Actually, I'm not, I'm notlooking, I'm not afraid of
either one of these moments.
I've actually lived a lot of mylife. And one of the great
things for me, Dave is, I'llthink about being now 61 years
old, is that no one can evertake away from me the reward
that's in heaven. Yeah. Like,what I have done over these

(56:14):
decades can't be diminished.
Like, no matter what happensfrom here, I already have that
in the bank. So, like, that'sthat's good to know. Like, I
have a heavenly bank accountthat I have stuff in that no one
ever can doesn't matter what youthink of me or what you say
about me, no one can ever takeaway what I have stored up in
heaven.

Dave Leake (56:36):
Yeah, that's good.
Yeah. I feel like in thisconversation, it's just making
me think, how do we talk aboutthis more often?

Jeff Leake (56:45):
Come to my series, it's called, there you go. But
even it has to become part ofour the milieu, right? The vibe,
the atmosphere of how we live,

Dave Leake (56:58):
yeah, and how we talk about God, how we talk
about, I think the big thing is,it's talking about the why for a
long time, the why was too much,because God wants for your best.
Yeah, you can get your best now,if you do these things, which is
true a lot of the time,complete, but it's totally
incomplete, and it's actuallyskewed the wrong direction from

(57:18):
the teachings of Jesus, yes,which are, well, it might, it
might suck right now, but that'sokay, because it's going to be
100 times better, yeah, to loseyour house now than have that
mega mansion in the future. Ithink

Jeff Leake (57:30):
if we lost the affluence of our culture, this
message would beinstantaneously,
instantaneously. It'd be easy.
It's the affluence that we swimupstream against. So fighting

Dave Leake (57:40):
against, giving into the affluence culture, maybe is
what we're talking about, thesoftening effect it has on the
softening effect that it has onus. But we're charged to pastor
in this generation, and you'recharged to be a Christian and to
live for God in this generation,if you're a listener to this.
And so we do what we can withwhat we have. And I think let's
live as people ready and excitedto be judged.

Jeff Leake (58:02):
Yeah? You know, no, you're gonna get good grades.
You don't fear the report card.
No,

Dave Leake (58:07):
make the most of every opportunity. Yeah,
absolutely. Any closingthoughts?

Jeff Leake (58:13):
No, I think this was a really good discussion.
Hopefully it was helpful.

Dave Leake (58:16):
Hopefully it was helpful. All right. Well, hey,
we appreciate you joining us. Asalways, there are a bunch of
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(58:38):
guys tuning in. We'll see youguys again next time you.