The Dangers of Self-Love, Therapy, and Self-Discovery

In this episode, Dave and Jeff delve into the culturally sensitive topic of self-love, therapy, and self-discovery.

They analyze how these concepts often intersect with Christianity and discuss the potential dangers to look out for and how to avoid them.

Through anecdotes, biblical references, and practical advice, they aim to provide listeners with a balanced, faith-based approach to these three areas.

Books mentioned in this episode:
- "The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self" by Carl Truman
- "Strange New World" also by Carl Truman
- "Telling Yourself the Truth" by William Baucus
- "Waking the Dead" by John Eldridge

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
Today we're talking about the dangers of self love,

(00:04):
therapy and self discovery.
Maybe those don't sounddangerous at all, and in a lot
of ways, they're really good,but there are actually hidden
traps that we have if we're notbeing careful about the role of
those three things in our life.
Today we're going to talk aboutwhere the dangers are, how to
avoid them and how to step intoall what God has for you. You
want to hear more. Tune in. Heyeverybody. Welcome to the

(00:26):
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we have culture creating
conversations. I'm one of yourhosts, and my name is Dave. My

Jeff Leake (00:32):
name is Jeff, and we're glad you joined us today.
Of course, we're a father son,so this makes this podcast multi
generational. We're both pastorson staff at Allison Park Church,
and we're glad you've joined usfor this podcast. Do we have any
shout outs today to give toanybody? No new

Dave Leake (00:46):
shout outs, but we would love to give you a shout
out if you want to leave us afive star review, especially on
Apple podcast, we'll see yourname there. We'll and we'll. We
would love to say thank you toyou specifically. If you can do
it in any platform, that'sgreat, but unfortunately, we can
only see the ones that the namesare listed, which is Apple only,
right now, yeah? Which is

Jeff Leake (01:03):
basically gives the podcast a little bit of a
profile. It might introduce itto people who've who might be
interested in it, and you neverknow the impact that that could
make. So you help us spread theword. We appreciate it.

Dave Leake (01:14):
Yeah, all right. So today, we're going to be talking
about the dangers of, wait aminute, I left my phone
somewhere. Oh, here it is, okay.
Let me tell you what the dangeris about, as soon as I can read
it, the dangers of self lovetherapy and self discovery,
okay, dangers of self lovetherapy self discovery, or we
talk about the limits. So wewere having this conversation
there. There are things in ourculture that are these weird

(01:37):
middle grounds because theyintersect with Christianity.
Middle ground, they're they'renot evil, they're not
necessarily good. They mightlook good.

Jeff Leake (01:52):
Honestly, when you said the title self love,
therapy and self discovery, allof those, for most people, would
be positive, right?

Dave Leake (02:00):
Right, right. Sorry, yeah, I'm not. So I'm trying to
explain what I mean connected todangers and so

Jeff Leake (02:05):
people like, what like dangers of therapy? Like,
what are you talking about? Isthere something I don't know. So
you're saying that those threeself love, therapy and self
discovery are in can be like acrossover. They're crossover
spaces between Christianity andthe popular culture. Yeah,

Dave Leake (02:25):
exactly, exactly.
And there are things in thosethree like, there are aspects of
those that are really, reallygood, and then there are some
that maybe are viewed as good,when I think we should give them
more careful examination, as Iguess, what I'm trying to say,
here's the bottom line of thedanger when we talk about
specifics, is, I think if wejust treat those like they're

(02:48):
just all good, then we'reputting ourselves in danger,
because there are aspects ofthose we're all bad. Yeah? Well,
yeah, we're and we're clearlynot thinking they're all bad.
Yeah, self love isn't all bad.
That'd be kind of crazy. I guesstherapy,

Jeff Leake (03:02):
right? Exactly, because we teach a lot of these
things exactly, yeah,

Dave Leake (03:06):
yeah. So we live in a culture that that is, we've
talked about this term a lot,but syncretistic, where it
combines culture andChristianity, or, actually, you
know, I'm noticing a lot ofBuddhism, I think, is the main
one that's actually infiltratingChristianity. That's actually, I
think Nathan van Nokia talksabout Christian Buddhists a lot,

(03:27):
but it's people that talk about,it's the ideas of, like
manifesting and inner peace andsort of Bucha. That was just New
Age. Well, it might also be newage, but like Zen and those
Eastern religion,

Jeff Leake (03:40):
Eastern religion, that's, that's a better phrase,
which is kind of encompasses awhole bunch of different things.
Yeah, right. So I

Dave Leake (03:47):
want to, I guess today, the conversation that I
want to have is, what are thelimits of those three? Self
love, therapy, self discovery?
Where are the dangers? Where dothey perfectly mesh with
Christianity. Where are therecollision points that maybe are
unseen or not talked about byculture? Because there really is

(04:07):
a difference between what ourculture in general says is good
and right and well versus whatthe Bible says. And it's worth
taking a second well. And

Jeff Leake (04:17):
I think there's another piece of this too, which
is not just the theological.
Does this mesh with Christianityso we're aligned properly? It's
also, do these approaches leadto real health? That's true. Do
they lead us to the place wherepeople are thriving and
flourishing? Are they missingsomething? Are they in complete
solutions? I think so. From alike, if someone's out there and

(04:40):
they're hurting and you'retrying to find an answer for
what you're struggling through,or you're lacking purpose, and
you want to discover yourself sothat you can step into some kind
of meaning. It might be possiblethat some of the things that
we're talking about areincomplete answers, and might
leave you. Wanting, and so we'reactually trying to direct people

(05:01):
to real, real, genuine hope,right, legitimate solutions, as
well as theological orthodoxy.
So

Dave Leake (05:11):
talk about your message this past weekend. Yeah,
so conversation you had afterOkay,

Jeff Leake (05:15):
so I, I preached out of the the Exodus, chapter 12
and the Passover. And I was, Iwas recounting some things that
happened for me personally whenI was going through this Seder
meal celebration last March withRabbi Jeff Kip who was a rabbi,

(05:35):
Messianic Rabbi here inPittsburgh, and he did something
for our ministry School where hetook us through the Seder meal.
So he went through basically thewhole Passover meal as it as he
would celebrate it with hisfamily. And he took us one step
at a time, and then he unpackedthe biblical meanings of each
and one of the things that'smentioned in Exodus chapter 12,
in verse eight, it says thatyou're supposed to take the

(05:57):
matzah, the unleavened bread,and dip it in bitter herbs. And
the bitter herbs remind remindedthe people of Israel of their
slavery season in Egypt. And sohe kind of broadened it. And he
said, as you dip the bread inthe bitter herbs, I want you to
think about some of the thingsin your life that have not been
easy. And so the bitter herbswas horseradish. Horseradish has

(06:19):
this pungent smell makes youreyes water. It has a nasty
taste. And as I and as I atethat horseradish and smelled it
and felt my eyes water, and Ithought about the things in my
life that weren't easy, I wasunprepared for the sensory
impact that it would have on me,like like the the tasting of it,

(06:40):
and the smelling of it, and thetears coming out of my eyes was
sort of a therapeutic. Can I sayit like that moment, like it was
cathartic for me to face it, andthen you take the same matzo
bread and you dip it in a sweetit's called harroset, a little
mixture of apples and honey. Andbasically, in that second

(07:02):
dipping and tasting, it's likeGod takes the bitter things in
my life and he's able to bringsweet redemption out of it, like
he's able to bring somethingsweet out of it. And so my point
in the message was, sometimesyou need more than counseling to
be to be healthy. You actuallyneed the rhythms of a healthy
spiritual community where youand God unpack some things in a

(07:24):
in the presence of other peoplewho love and believe in you are
willing to pray for you, andjust sitting one on one in a
counseling room doesn'treproduce the same dynamic of
what God intended to be presentin the Passover celebration or
for us in communion, right?
There's some things that Goddoes when we get into His
presence, that can't happen inany other place. Now, I guess
you could be in a counselingsetting, and you and your

(07:45):
counselor could pray and have amoment with God, but there's a
limit to what therapy can do,and and and there's a need. So
not that therapy is bad, but itit only produces one piece of
the puzzle for us in our healingprocess. I think some things
only happen when we get honestwith ourselves in the presence
of God, in the presence of otherpeople, and we process what's

(08:08):
happening in our life in realtime. And so I think I mentioned
this to you, Dave, and this iswhen we started down this path,
because we had talked about thisbefore, about how we live in a
therapeutic culture, and howthat maybe gets a little too
much emphasis, and it can createsome hang ups and problems for
people if they don't have otherbalanced contributions to their

(08:32):
soul health. So yeah, so mypremise, so the message was, if
I'm going to be have a healthysoul, I need more than
counseling. I need the rhythms,the healthy rhythms of a or the
rhythms of a healthy spiritualcommunity, which is what was,
what's provided in Passover, andwhat, really, what should be in

(08:54):
in every small group and everyweekend church service, there
should be some degree of healingthat happens when you get in the
presence of God, in the presenceof other people. Yeah, other

Dave Leake (09:03):
people, you had a conversation afterwards. Is it
too sensitive to speak aboutthat?

Jeff Leake (09:06):
So I won't go into detail, but someone came up to
me and they said someone eitherwas a brand new believer or
hadn't yet come to faith. Andthey said, I've been dealing
with a lot. I've been thinkingthat at times I have suicidal
thoughts, and I've been intherapy for a long time, and
while it's helped me, it's it'snever been enough for me to feel

(09:29):
that I that I've gotten past allthis. And so I'm wondering if
this is what I'm missing, maybeI maybe I need God in my life.
That was back the conclusion.
And so I was like, Well, yeah, Isaid this doesn't discount the
value of the therapy you'vereceived, or maybe the medical
inputs that you've gotten, butto make the picture complete for
what you need in your life, youneed not just God, you need

(09:50):
other people who are godly andencouraging and are prayerful to
surround you so that you can getto that place. So I recommend.
Ended some next steps going tobreakthrough, getting involved
with, you know, an age specificcommunity of believers that
would help to form friendships,and it was a very vulnerable and
honest but meaningfulconversation that I think needs

(10:13):
to be had across the board forpeople today. Because, again, if
therapy is the singular answer,it's not enough. There needs to
be other pieces

Dave Leake (10:23):
that's good. Okay, so, so let's, let's, let's talk
about this collision of whereeven this comes from. Because,
so you're talking about therapyalso, you know, self love, I
think, and self discovery. Soself love, treating yourself
well, you know, not living likeyou're unworthy, not going

(10:45):
through life like always justfeeling awful. It's sort of
like, you know, telling yourselfwhat you need to hear. It's like
self affirmations, or it's selfcare, and then self discovery,
finding your real purpose, likewho you're created to be and how
you're made and and the path foryou to take as a unique
individual. I think all ofthese, in some ways, feel like

(11:06):
they come from the same sort ofthought process.

Jeff Leake (11:09):
But when you say it like that, Dave, I say, all
good, right? Is there all good?
Like, Oh, that's good. I mean,but there's something that
cannot be good about it. So letme ask you, maybe the one to
provoke the So, where are thedangers with that? Let's, let's
take them on at a time. Whereare the dangers with self love?

Dave Leake (11:29):
Well, you know, from a biblical perspective, I think
the reason for self love isbecause we're made in the image
of God, and because God sayswe're valuable,

Jeff Leake (11:40):
yeah, and there's the opposite a problem, which is
self loathing, right? Which alot of people deal with. Self
loathing. They they don't likethemselves because the way they
look. They don't like themselvesbecause of maybe a lack of gifts
or comparison somebody else, ormaybe something someone said
about them. They don't likethemselves because of a habit
they can't overcome, or amistake that they've made, or

(12:03):
maybe just because they look inthe mirror and they don't like
what they see. So self love, insome ways, is trying to cure
self loathing, right, right? Andso it's like say about yourself,
like you're beautiful, or, youknow you have purpose, and
people love you. What I findabout that, and I'm talking too

(12:24):
much, sorry I asked you for me.
I I don't turn to self love tosolve the moments of guilt,
shame and self loathing. Okay,you're

Dave Leake (12:34):
going too far down.
Okay, you're gonna, you'regiving solutions. Yeah, I want
to, okay, here's, here's, sohere's, here's hanging from now,
yeah, here's, here's part ofwhat I like about these
conversations, I think if wegive answers and takes too
quickly, it doesn't always paintthe actual tension of why
something is worth discussing,then it's just like, here's good

(12:55):
stuff from Jeff podcast, whichwe are, we're gonna get that at
some point. But hold on, you'regoing too fast for me. I'm
trying to paint. Why is this aproblem? Well, I think that one
of the things that is true isthat if we follow Jesus, we are
worthy. And because we're manJesus image, you know, we are

(13:16):
valuable. But self love, when itgets focused in the way that,
that it often does in ourculture, becomes about how
you're already enough and andyou know, regardless as to what
you're like, like, you areperfect in your own way, and
you're unique. And all thosethings are like, they echo
things that are biblical, butthey come from a different

(13:37):
standpoint. Okay, where do theycome from. Okay? So, so they
come from this, this viewpoint,this is at least one of the
viewpoints they originated from,which is that humanity, in its
natural state, is the theperfect version of humanity
that's corrupted by culture andsociety. So the more pressure
and restrictions and andjudgment that people heap on

(13:58):
you, they walk past you and theygive you certain looks, or your
your body should look this way.
You should think like this. Youshould have these preferences.
It makes us conform. So

Jeff Leake (14:08):
now you're talking humanism, right? Is that
humanism or progressivism, theidea that they're a little
linked, you are good, butculture says you're bad. It's
culture that's the problem,

Dave Leake (14:20):
and what we're doing is we, are we? Instead of
allowing other people to give ustheir negativity and make us
feel bad about be your trueself. Yeah, love yourself into
what you feel that you are, kindof a thing. And I guess, like
all of those, have echoes ofChristianity, which is why I
think it's a little confusing.
See, the Christian perspectiveis while man was once perfect in

(14:43):
the garden, or as perfect as Iguess, God made us to be, like
the fall made everybody guilty,and everybody, you know. So the
problem is, in culture, it'ssin. The problem is me, yeah.
The problem is that I aminherently sinful, yeah. And I.
I we use the word depravity,depraved. I am corrupted. I'm
broken, I'm flawed, and so like,the reason why Christians would

(15:06):
say I am worthy, I am valuable,is because of what Jesus did for
us. And the focus of self loveisn't self it's it's on love,
like we love ourselves becausewe've been made, you know, new
by Jesus, and it's,

Jeff Leake (15:24):
and because God's created us, yeah, right, you're
right. And, and he and he diedfor us, and He and He wants us,
and, yeah, so, so it's, it'slike, you know, there's this
old, I don't know if it's fableabout the emperor that had no
clothes on, you know, thatstory, and he walked around
naked. And everybody, everybodypretended that he was clothed,

(15:45):
but he was really naked. No onewanted to tell him the truth. So
the the king could say, culturerequires me to wear clothing,
but I'm being my true self.
Either way, you're still naked,right? Either way, you're still
exposed. So whatever, whateversinful brokenness you carry
around with you, doesn't matterwhether culture accepts you or
not. It that's still a problem.

(16:09):
And when you let God breathelife into you and forgiveness
into you and you, you seeyourself now through his eyes,
that you're now a new creationin Christ now you have a real
sense of rootedness intosomething that can never be
taken away from

Dave Leake (16:23):
you. And okay, it's like there's this nuance all
human life is valuable and it'svaluable to God. All human life
has worth. So those are true.
But if you accept that, let'sjust call it humanistic
viewpoint of this. When it comesto self, love or worth, it's
like everybody, you're enough,you're you're already worthy.
Don't change, but you are. Andthat is opposite of the what the

(16:44):
Bible says, Okay, it's like whatyour Bible say? You're not
enough on your own, you're amess, you're broken, and that's
why we need to come to Jesus.
Yeah, it's not that you'revalueless or you're worthless.
Everybody has value, but you'rebroken. You're you're not, yeah,
you're not. You're not complete.
You're broken. And what makes uscomplete isn't by, you know,
loving ourselves better for whowe are. It's by a accepting

(17:07):
Jesus and allowing his thoughtsto transform us so that we
become, yeah, who he and then

Jeff Leake (17:15):
we start to align, right? So we say, you're you're
not, you're broken. Your mind isall all over the place, and you
let things live in your mindthat shouldn't be there, but you
but if you align your mind withtruth, the truth will set you
free right like in your you feellike you're not enough. You got
an addictive habit. You need tobe freed from that so that you
can live a sober and clean andfree life like there's there's

(17:37):
some things that you're carryingaround with you have hate in
your heart like you, you need toget in alignment with the grace
of God and forgive so that Godcan set you free and you don't
walk around with us anymore.
Like to say to someone who'sbitter or addicted or tormented
in their mind, you're okay, justlike you are. Just love yourself
more that doesn't make you free,that doesn't bring you life and
healing and doesn't make you abetter dad or husband or

(18:00):
whatever. So you need Jesus tobe changed from the inside out.
So God says to you, I love youjust like you are, and I know
you're not there yet, and I loveyou and I accept you, and you're
my son or daughter, and you'remy family, but now I'm not going
to let you stay this way. We'regoing to work together and
making you to become who youneed to be, because you're
broken and damaged, and damaged,and you're never going to

(18:22):
flourish in this condition. Soyou really need to step into the
plan and purpose. So let's talkabout why this matters too.
Okay, because if we don't wantto leave people in their
condition of brokenness, well,not

Dave Leake (18:32):
just that. If you already are enough, you don't
need God. It's true. The whole

Jeff Leake (18:37):
actually are. God, yes. And that's think about like
I am enough. That's like astatement that you would make
about the sovereign of theuniverse. Yeah, I mean,

Dave Leake (18:46):
I mean, like humanism, New Age, these kind of
faith systems, even if it's nota religion you practice
actively, but it's a worldviewwe hold. It's like humanity is
inherently good, and there arecertain things that we can do to
take off the mud and therestrictions and the stuff that
have been caked on to us that wecan be restored to our former

(19:06):
glory. The Bible says, whilethere is former glory, you can't
do anything to get close torestoring any of that without
God's help. So it's likerecognizing my own brokenness
and saying, God, I need you, andthen even the love that we have
for ourselves. It is we shouldlove ourselves, but it's like it
is a love that should bereflective of Jesus. Does that

(19:28):
make sense? Like he gets theglory for who I am? Like, it's
not that I am enough. I'm enoughbecause of what Jesus has done,
well,

Jeff Leake (19:34):
and honestly, the Gospel comes with this opposite
challenge, deny yourself. Yeah.
Deny yourself. Yeah. So, so, youknow, Jesus said you should love
your neighbor as you loveyourself. And I think that
that's one of the ways that thatparticular phrase gets been
supplied. Because we think, seethat's the thing, before I can
love anybody else, have to lovemyself. I actually don't think

(19:56):
that's what Jesus was trying tosay, although I. Self loathing
is not good, right? I think whathe was trying to say is we all
love and cater to ourselvesconstantly. The problem that we
have is that we don't loveourselves enough. It's that we
love ourselves too much, andthat we need to deny our
impulses and sinful desires andselfishness so that we can love

(20:16):
God and love others, because ifyou self love, can get in the
way of loving God and lovingothers. And so it's again, we're
not saying loathe yourself,yeah, or have a bad perspective
of yourself, but everybody has atendency to love themselves, and
that doesn't really needreinforced. What you need to do

(20:37):
is you need to accept yourselfon God's terms, yeah, and see
yourself through God's eyes, sothat you value yourself the way
God does, and then deny yoururges into your selfishness so
that you can live like Christ.
Yeah?

Dave Leake (20:51):
Another way of putting it, I think, would be
the that we are trying to alignwith the proper perspective, so
it's like the only one who isable to tell, like a person, how
much their worth they have, orwhy they are as their Creator,
like the creator of an object,can actually give a value and
meaning and purpose. And so it'slike when we align ourselves

(21:13):
with what God believes about us,we come into the real glory that
God had for us. I think was itironies that said the glory of
God is man fully alive. You'veheard that quote before. That's,
that's what I mean. I probablyhave. That's one that John
Eldridge uses in the book Wakingthe Dead, found in your office.
And read it a little bit agobecause I had heard and I was
like, I want to check this out.
I think that's a really goodquote. But it's like, we, we,

(21:35):
you know, when, when we fullystep into who God made us to be,
self denying, you know, lovingpeople of virtue. You know what
I mean, like real, true virtue,courage and humility and
boldness and and respect and,well, I don't know, there's
probably a generosity. I thinkwe reflect God's nature, and we

(21:55):
align with the perspective ofhow he created us to be, and
find our value in that, becausethere's a glory in being the
kind of man or woman God calledus to be. The opposite
perspective is we're like selfgenerating our own value. And I
have to tell myself I'mvaluable, and everyone

Jeff Leake (22:12):
else has to reflect what I think about myself, yeah,
or else it makes me invalidsomehow. And

Dave Leake (22:18):
it's extremely threatening and dangerous when
other people try to impose theirthoughts about you on you.
That's what the world says,right from this perspective,
because if they make you feelthat way, then you become that
way, and you're seeing yourselfas less than you should. So

Jeff Leake (22:31):
the dangers of the self love movement is the
projection that culture andsociety is the problem, or

Dave Leake (22:40):
that, that you are the one that your value and
worth and self fulfillment arerooted in, yeah? Like you have
it there, you'd have to unpackit. That's actually the same
thing with self discovery.

Jeff Leake (22:52):
Yeah, I was going to get to this because self
discovery doesn't sound asdangerous to me. What? Because
what you just, like you said,you need to discover the man or
woman that God's created you tobe and live with courage and
humility and purpose. And to methat sounds like self discovery.
So how, in what way is selfdiscovery dangerous? So how is
it linked to the thing we justsaid about self love? All right,

(23:14):
so there's

Dave Leake (23:16):
a book we used to mention all the time. Still love
it. It's called The Rise andtriumph of the modern self, by
Carl Truman, he wrote another bythe

Jeff Leake (23:22):
way, okay, so, Andrew, he's an evangelist from
New York, Dave. And he said, Ilove your podcast. Andrew
Rosenberger, I'm sorry, Andrew,if I got your name wrong. Okay,
he works with will Hampton,yeah, I know Andrew. Andrew,
great guy. And he said he wassaying in jest that he I

(23:45):
listened to podcast. He said,We, I have kind of a drinking
game with it every time youmentioned John Mark comer. Oh
yeah, I take a drink of my dietcook. I think we could probably
with a rise and drop of

Dave Leake (23:59):
the bar. Well, specifically in that one season
we read it. That was like itjust mind blowing the good book
to me, he wrote another simplerversion of this as a little less
academic, more streamlined,called strange new world.
Anyway, by Carl Truman. He talksabout this concept he calls
expressive individualism.

Jeff Leake (24:15):
Okay, it's a deep here you are. You are always
good for the bookrecommendations. Let's do it.
Okay, so strange new world, orthe rise and triumph of the
modern, modern self. CarlTruman, who is, I think, a
professor at Grove City, keepgoing, all right, so give me
some deep thoughts. So

Dave Leake (24:30):
I'm just reading an AI generated definition of
expressive individualism, butit's probably close enough.
Okay, it's a worldview thatprioritizes self expression and
self discovery, it emphasizesthe importance of being true to
oneself and following one'sinner feelings. So key
characteristics selfdetermination, individuals are

(24:52):
the highest authority and areresponsible determining their
own truth. Self expression,individuals express their inner
identity through their ownpersonal means, off.
Authenticity, individuals shouldbehave in a way that is
consistent with their innerfeelings. Self fulfillment,
individuals should seek to findexpress their best selves and
self definition, individuals aredefined by their capacity to

(25:13):
choose a future pathway.

Jeff Leake (25:15):
So it just described the religious doctrine of our
day. Yes, yeah, right, that is,that is the air that we breathe.
That is the the theology of mosttelevision and movies. That's
the the doctrinal statements ofa lot of music. That's the way
your friends reflect back to youabout answers in life. Is that's

(25:39):
the doctoral statement. So,

Dave Leake (25:40):
so you broke it down. What? How does this
actually sound to you when youhear this in culture? Yeah, so
for

Jeff Leake (25:47):
me, so I have it, it, it makes me disturbed
inside. I know

Dave Leake (25:52):
you'll know. Let me realize. What? How do you hear
this being you're like, it's inmovies, and it's in

Jeff Leake (25:58):
songs, and so, you know you so so the universe will
work it out for you. You knowit, it's all going to come
together. You need to just betrue to yourself. You need to
follow your heart. If you justfollow your heart, you're going
to be fine. Your heart knows theway, don't you can't let anybody
put that on you. You need to beyou need to be who you are, like
you you're you only live once.
You need to live the way thatyou want to live. Don't let

(26:19):
anyone else tell you how youneed to fit into any innovations
or who you're going to be. Youcan't let society pressure you.
You can't let anyone let youdown like you got to be. You got
to be who you are. That's not avery clumsy version of what you
hear all the time. And

Dave Leake (26:35):
the political version is there are all of
these groups that are trying toforce you to be who they want
you to be to sustain their ownpower, but you need to throw
them off of yourself, whetherit's religion, right,
patriarchy, patriot,institutional, whatever, not

Jeff Leake (26:51):
to say that there aren't abuses from those spaces.
Yes, those are,

Dave Leake (26:55):
those are spaces where people have power, and
many people have power, areabusing them, right? But

Jeff Leake (27:00):
the powers of a culture, whatever power sources
they are, are the problem, yes,and they're the reasons why
you're not happy, right?
Exactly. And if you could dealwith those power structures, you
would be, you would be, finally,you know, the person you're
supposed to be, and you'd behappy and truly fulfilled. But
because there's so many nastypower structures out there. We

(27:20):
always got to fight the man. And

Dave Leake (27:23):
the more progressive you go into this, you get into
the intersectionality matrix,where, depending on the types of
ways that power would push youdown, you know women,
minorities, racially, you knowgender fluidity stuff. Or now
you get people that aredisabled, hot second topics
right there? Well, but, butit's, it's ways that powers

(27:43):
victimize you are incent they'remaking you more and more
marginalized, which is, keep youfrom being who you really are,
stress yourself, throwing offall of those things, because you
should be the, the most true toyou. Okay,

Jeff Leake (27:55):
so maybe the simplest way to illustrate this
is the Copernican revolution,right? Is this the simplest way
to Well, here's what I mean. Foryears, most people believe that
the universe revolves around theEarth, and Copernicus
demonstrated that the universe,the Galaxy we're in, revolves
around the sun, and he waspersecuted for that. Okay, so

(28:17):
the self love movement, selfdiscovery movement says, I'm in
the center. Everything revolvesaround me, and if I can make it
revolve around me properly, I'llbe truly happy. Christianity
says we all revolve around God,and specifically Jesus, the Son
of God. And our life findsmeaning only in that it circles

(28:38):
His purpose. And if I put myselfin the center or on the throne,
I'm always going to find a lackof fulfillment, a lack of
purpose, a lack of value,because I'm not enough to be
what I need myself to be. I'mdeficient, I'm broken. But if I
put Jesus in the center and Ilet my life revolve around him,
everything else starts to makesense, by the way, that also

(29:00):
brings peace in polarization,because instead of fighting
power, we begin to align in alife that's submitted to Jesus
and His Kingdom vision. Andwe're no longer, you know, out
there trying to beat down theman we're we're now simply
trying to serve the purpose ofGod, and that motivates us to
bring value to everybody we see,

Dave Leake (29:20):
and just people that are, that are, you know, being
downtrodden upon my freedom forthe captives. And, you know,
because I think it's not, it'snot just so we don't care about
the man. We let the powers dowhatever they want, even no
matter how horrible they are.
But the motivation is to serve

Jeff Leake (29:37):
God's purpose exactly, rather than fight the
power, right, right? So, so thatwasn't, I thought that was, No,
that was actually really good,yeah, so I didn't know where the
thing was. What you need todecide, in a way, is, does the
universe revolve around you, ordo you revolve around Jesus?
Okay, so as your life revolvearound let me.

Dave Leake (29:57):
Let me give more examples of how, how. Face of
this is in our culture. Howwidespread now, let's be clear,
being individualistic is notnecessarily bad, trying to tap
into who God's made me to be,and what am i What do I like?
What do I dislike? What are mygiftings? Those aren't
necessarily bad. We live in anexpressive, individualistic

(30:17):
culture, which means that ratherthan being about tribes and
being about family, lineage oreven nationality, it's more
about each individual person. Sothat's just, that's not
necessarily a bad thing. I'mabout me. Yeah, okay, so, so
ways that we see this, all thedifferent personality tests that
have been huge for years, and I,like all

Jeff Leake (30:35):
you, you, I know that better than anybody.
Siblings, yeah, you could argueabout that for days. Yes, yeah.

Dave Leake (30:40):
I mean, in high school, I got really into the
Myers, Briggs, and thenEnneagram, yeah, disc
eventually, Enneagram and someof those profiling tools are
helpful. Working genius is sortof the latest one that's more of
a working environment, one, andthose show how individuals and
their own, you know, uniquedesign can can work together

(31:01):
better, with people that canunderstand themselves better.
And I think like the insightinto seeing who I am and and
what my unique strengths andweaknesses are, what my
struggles are, what mymotivations or my callings, some
of those things are reallyhelpful. But it's I'm trying to
highlight. There's anunderpinning in our culture like
Hogwarts houses from HarryPotter, what house do you belong

(31:22):
to? You know, there's all ofthese. We divide ourselves to
try to find, how am I differentthan everybody else? How am I
unique individual? And that'snot bad, but this whole problem
with self discovery and selflove as it can quickly go from
discovery for the purpose ofaiding myself to becoming
idolatry, where I worshipmyself. Yeah, I whatever I feel

(31:46):
I bow down to. I need to dothat. I need to be true to
myself. I need to serve myneeds. I need follow this urge,
yeah, exactly. I need to. I needto be celebrated properly,
right, right? Exactly, exactly.
And I just think, is self lovebad? No, definitely not. Is self
discovery bad? No, but when theyget out of order, is self love

(32:07):
bad? I don't think necessarilyyou think it's bad.

Jeff Leake (32:15):
That's self care is not bad, okay, self love is
assumed, but it, how quicklydoes self love become selfish? I
mean it. I don't know that.
Other than the one statementJesus made love your neighbor as
you love yourself, that we eversee self love in the Bible?

Dave Leake (32:35):
Uh huh, you mean, like as a command,

Jeff Leake (32:38):
as anything affirmed? Well, okay, there

Dave Leake (32:41):
is. This isn't necessarily care. Here's. So
here's, here's one that is justan example that Paul used in
Ephesians. 529, No one hates hisown body, but feeds for it and
cares for it, just as Christcares for the church. So that's
sort of

Jeff Leake (32:55):
so it's assumed, right? You know, I personally
don't have a problem withfeeding my body like most people
don't like unless you're caughtinto a self destructive loop.
Your desire to cater to yourselfand worship yourself is part of
the sin nature, right? I thinkthat's why Jesus says die to
yourself, so that you can livefor him. So self love going

(33:19):
anything beyond what I wouldcall soul care, so you could be
healthy to serve God's purpose.
Probably is idolatry.

Dave Leake (33:25):
I understand what you mean by definition. When
people colloquially say the wordself love, the phrase self love,
I think they're talking about,give yourself a break, have a
little bit of soul care. Well,that's how you're defining it.
Okay, Soul

Jeff Leake (33:39):
care is making sure that I'm doing well, that I'm
not just burning myself out,that I'm paying attention to the
signals in my life, that I'maware of my triggers, that I
process my pain, that I dealwith my bitterness, that I Okay.
All that's good, all of that isbiblical, but I do that by
loving myself. That is using thedoctrinal language of a

(34:03):
destructive cult calledhumanism, which is consuming our
culture in a massive way. And soI would just be very careful to
use that term too freely. Okay,but here's so so it's like this
therapy. So good therapy alonenot going to get you there. Self

(34:23):
love, okay? Except soul care.
Accept it if you go too far withit. If you go too far leaning
into self esteem or self love,or you're gonna, you're gonna so
quickly shift in because it's,it's an insidious trap to make
you the center of everything,yeah, and unless you are
purposely rowing against thecurrent of the culture and your
own sin nature, which is alwaystrying to put you in the center

(34:46):
of everything, you're going toend up there quickly, and then
you're going to be not justworshiping a false god to say it
real direct, but you're going toend up unfulfilled and blaming
the whole world for the factthat that you have problems.
Yes, yeah. And so Christianity,when puts God in the center,
realizes that Jesus is enoughand he starts to heal you
properly, then you don't blamethe world. You start to serve

(35:08):
the world. And that is a wholedifferent paradigm that we have
to get back into So, but I guessI'm not gonna die on that hill.
Like

Dave Leake (35:17):
if you some people use self love. Okay, let's say
it's like a new mom, becausewe're a new parents meet. Well,
not we have a two year old, butwe also have

Jeff Leake (35:26):
a newborn getting your butt kicked by two little
babies. Oh, my You got you needto take care of yourself. Not
just that. My generation wouldsay, make sure you take care of
yourself, but you say, make sureyou love yourself. That to me,
that's like, they wouldn't say

Dave Leake (35:41):
like that. It would be okay. So it'd be like, it'd
be like, a give yourself Gracewould be an example of a self
love type of a statement,because it's like, you have a
newborn, you know, it's, youcan't have everything perfect
all the time. The house isn'talways gonna look the way you
wanted to. Like, don't holdyourself to this ridiculously
high standard. Like you just youneed to have some grace for

(36:03):
yourself. That's, that's sort ofvein of self love. But self love
can become self worship, whichis what you're talking about.

Jeff Leake (36:09):
I it's, it's like a lot of words that become
overused. I agree. I agree. Ithink it's probably the danger
is that we throw self lovearound too easily, and we should
just say it more plainly, giveyou grace to yourself, take care
of yourself, pace yourself likeokay, that's none of that's
idolatry. That's actionoriented, strategic steps. Love

(36:30):
yourself. Now that sounds likewe're moving into put yourself
at the center of everything, andif you do everything's going to
be good. I think that's thethat's the danger point. So
let's

Dave Leake (36:39):
talk about therapy for a second. Yeah. Um, so how,
what's your you were justtalking about how good therapy
is. Talk to me about your view,like, Where, where is the limit
of therapy? Because you're like,it doesn't get you all the way
there. Where does it help? Whereis it limited?

Jeff Leake (36:54):
Yeah, so, okay, I think it's good. I was actually
thinking about this as I heardDave, you told me what our
podcast episode was going to betoday that, you know, up until
the turn of the 19th century,the 20th century, there wasn't
therapy like so. So think aboutit, there are a lot of
traumatized, hurting people wholived their lives without

(37:17):
counseling, slash therapy, forwhat, five, 6000 years of human
history, and then all of thesudden we see it as central to
everything. Now, how do peoplecope back then? What do they do?

Dave Leake (37:30):
My opinion? Yeah, I just think people didn't think
about it. I think you just movedon. No, but if you

Jeff Leake (37:35):
were lost a child at an early age, or you were
divorced, or your husband died,you were traumatized, yeah,
that's true. I think there wassome things that were present.
You had an extended family thattypically lived near you. You
worked hard, physically, you youmay probably sat down with
somebody in your life, a dad, amom, a grandparent, a friend,

(37:57):
and you got some wise counsel alot of people, especially in
some cultures, Western cultures,especially in the last couple
centuries, they studied the Wordof God and let God's word speak
into their life, and theyjournaled and they sang hymns,
and they were in church, andthey and they worshiped, and
they had spiritual communitiesthey belonged to. I actually

(38:17):
think that therapy added intothat the word of God and hard
work and physical discipline andand, you know, extended family,
all of that together, you addtherapy in which is this really
targeted way to identify whatyour triggers are and how to
think through some things andsome soul exercises. To get
therapy is amazing. It takes usall to a whole nother level of

(38:40):
health. But it's interestingthat in the last 120 years of
history, we've had more emphasison therapy and counseling and we
have more mental health crisis.
Yeah, exactly. How is thatpossible? You would think we
would be the most mentallyhealthy generation that has ever
lived, and we may be the mostmentally unhealthy. So how is it
that we have more resourcesavailable to us and less mental

(39:04):
health? Though? It's not thatthe world has gotten more
difficult. People live longerlives.

Dave Leake (39:12):
Diseases are less common. People die, yes, yeah,
right. Child

Jeff Leake (39:16):
birth, child death rates are way, way lower in
comparison to previousgeneration is less poor than we
ever been. We are affluent.
Yeah? So maybe the problem isn'tthe fact that there's therapy,
which is a very good thing,yeah? Maybe the thing that was
we lack all the other stuff thatthey had, extended family and
spiritual community and hardwork and discipline and mothers
and fathers who speak into ourlife. Maybe we're isolated so

(39:40):
much that we are always byourselves, and we have a friend
group that's only peers, andthen we go to we go to a hired
counselor to provide us withinput, but we lack the framework
of living. Yeah, that, and thisis what the Passover
illustration that I shared atthe beginning was all about. You
get together with your wholefamily, and you take multiple

(40:01):
hours, and you have a spiritualexperience, and you taste
bitterness, and you tastesweetness, and you think about
what God's brought you through.
And you pray together, and youlaugh together, and you feel
like you belong to something,and you understand how God looks
at you, and you know he has aplan for you, and your life is
revolving around yourself. Andthen you have the rhythms of
every seven days, you have aSabbath, and you disconnect from

(40:24):
life, and you reconnect withyourself and with the people who
love you. It's, it's the rhythmsof spiritual community that we
are missing. Yeah, isolation isprobably the cause of all the
mental health issues. I shouldsay, Oh, I think that many. I
think there's more than that.
Okay, go ahead.

Dave Leake (40:42):
Okay, so I have a theory. I don't know this could
be, yeah, at risk of lookingstupid, but let me just tell you
my theory. All right, but somaybe this is gonna be instantly
proven wrong. But here's what Ithink. I think that when the
younger generations, millennialsand down, think of the older
generations, they think of a lotof people before therapy or self

(41:06):
awareness who didn't think aboutcertain things. And so, like,
one of the tropes of toxicmasculinity is like they just
bury everything. They bury theiremotions. They're distant from
everybody. You know what I mean?
They they like shoulder theload, but they were never really
happy, and they were mean peoplearound them because they weren't
self aware. They didn't do anydigging, right? I think it's
actually it's possible to be sounaware of yourself that you

(41:31):
carry all kinds of stuff younever process, and it's not good
for you. But I think that ourculture has indexed so far into
the introspective zone that issuper unhelpful. We're

Jeff Leake (41:44):
so aware of ourselves that we can't get out
of ourselves. What though we'renot even that

Dave Leake (41:48):
awareness means actually truth though we're just
looking inside and seeing things

Jeff Leake (41:54):
we know our feelings. Yes, I may not
necessarily know accurate thingsabout us.

Dave Leake (41:58):
Yeah, we might not have objective perspective on
what's actually going on.

Jeff Leake (42:02):
Let me preach now for a minute. Okay, here's the
other factor. I just mentioned,the spiritual community
component. So another part ofthe Passover celebration is that
they, by the way, this thispodcast should come out right
about Passover season. So it'sinteresting. Anyway, the Feast
of Unleavened Bread was designedfor them to go through their
houses and remove all theleaven. So I illustrated like

(42:24):
this. They took the leader ofthe House, would take a candle,
a dustpan and a little broom,and the children would hide the
leaven around the house, whichwas symbolic of sin, and they
would scoop it up in the pan,and they would throw it out. And
it was like saying, we arepurifying our home from anything
that's sinful or selfish. Okay,here's the other thing, if
you're living in habitual sinand you're out, you're not right

(42:47):
with God, and you're inrebellion against Him, or you're
carrying bitterness around, oryou're in some you're you're
like addicted to pornography orwhatever you're you can go to
counseling all day long untilyou get right with God, your
soul will never be healthy.
Yeah, I think we have a lot ofpeople who are doubling down on
their sin patterns and going totalk about it on a regular

(43:10):
basis. But unless you repent andget your mind right and your
heart light right and your liferight, you're never going to
find joy, because joy is itcomes from the Holy Spirit, and
peace comes from the Holy Spiritcome peace comes from being
right with God. So if you're aChristian living a double life,
living in sin, and you're goodwith it, and you go to

(43:31):
counseling to talk about it,well, of course, God is not at
work in your life like he wantsto be to make you whole. And so
that's why I say we overemphasize therapy, unless your
therapist tells you you're insin. Get right with God, which
some good therapist might Yeah,like your pornography addiction
is stealing your soul. Youbetter deal with that. Confess

(43:53):
your sins to one another. Prayfor one another. You can be
healed. James 516 Yep. Okay, soyou need community. You need the
word of God. You need moms anddads in your life. Yeah, you
need a pastor like you need aplace to process your pain. Need
to be honest with yourself. Youneed good physical conditioning.
You need some hard work. Youneed to do something for
something. So another thing is,if I live all the time on video

(44:16):
games, and I only think aboutmyself all the time because of
self love, but I really neverserve anybody else. Sometimes
the best thing for my mentalhealth is to get for me to get
out of myself and go dosomething for somebody else,

Dave Leake (44:28):
true. And so I have to put video games on blast like
that, okay, but always videogames, right? Producer, Matt,

Jeff Leake (44:35):
always watching Netflix or whatever. Too much
soccer. Tick tock. Yeah. Soccer,right? So, so listen, you, you,
you can't substitute selfdiscovery, yeah, self love and
therapy for a life ofrepentance, yeah? Like, there is
a certain level of you beingright with God that is necessary

(44:55):
for you to experience the lifeGod designed for you to live.
Yeah, and, and. And I thinksometimes we just put like a
film over top of our our mess ofa life, and we say, well, I'm in
counseling, but I got this crapgoing on in my soul. You have to
deal with stuff in order for it.
Now. Again, a good therapist, agood Christian counselor, will

(45:15):
help you do that. Yeah, right.
So I'm not saying all therapies,just to film on top. No, of
course I'm saying real soulhealth involves the work of
repentance. There's

Dave Leake (45:26):
another trap, though, that I was trying to
highlight that will go past justthe repentance angle, and I
think it's what we focus on. Sookay, there. There definitely
is. Are some things that, if wedon't deal with them, they are
and we just try to move on, movepast their traumatic PTSD is a
good example of those kind ofsymptoms that come from

(45:47):
traumatic events, and they getworse when you bury them, like
you need to process through themor whatever, but like when you
live in such an introspective,individualistic culture, the
base thought is like, I am Who Iam primarily, like I am an inner
person with an exterior body,but I need to know how I feel
and what I desire and what'smotivating me and what traumas I

(46:09):
have. And, you know, theFreudian type psychology is a
lot of stuff probably happenedto you as a kid or as a young
person, and a lot of the traumaand baggage you have originates
there. So there's, there's thisdegree of, like, unpacking and
going back to try to find theroot causes and, like, I'm not
saying that's not ever useful,but when that becomes all
consuming as a focus, if it's anobsession, it's it, yeah, it's

(46:32):
like, it's a never ending pit todig down. Yeah, I

Jeff Leake (46:35):
think what's coming into my mind, and this is maybe
old guy get off my lawn kind ofmoment here. But I think of
PTSD. I think of the people wholived in trenches in World War.
Bombs are exploding everywhere,and people are losing their arms
and their eyes, and you come outof that, and you for the rest of
your life, when thunder strikes,you've want to run under a bed,

(46:56):
sure. And then there's the PTSD,because I didn't get the job I
wanted. Well, I mean, it's like,actual, I mean, maybe somebody
has PTSD, because in thetherapeutic culture, don't we
refer to our disappointmentsometimes as PTSD, like,
probably you can elevate certaindisappointments in life to being
like, so traumatic when, but Imeant real PTSD,

Dave Leake (47:16):
yeah, real PTSD, yeah. Like, but like, somebody
who is a policeman or afirefighter, or, let's just say,
even somebody who went through areally traumatic event,

Jeff Leake (47:27):
yeah, sure. Okay, so, so I don't want to, okay,
now I again. So, wait, wait,you're jumping past my point.
I'm clarifying. I'm saying Idon't want to be the old guy
saying, just suck it up and dealwith it you don't need. Yeah,
that's almost what it soundslike to me when I hear myself
say that loud, just so, just so,you know, I go, I've gone to
counseling. I would go tocounseling. I refer people to
counseling. I think it's veryimportant, sure. I think having

(47:48):
a good self, self, Soul careplan is essential to live a
healthy life over a long periodof time. So I'm pro pro pro Pro,
pro pro therapy. I'm not in anyway against it. What I'm against
is sometimes the mindsets thatsurround the obsession with what
I feel all the time.

Dave Leake (48:07):
You know, the thing is, though it's not like all
therapists share the samephilosophy. Well,

Jeff Leake (48:12):
that's the thing.
Just like not all pastors preachequally, and not all doctors as
good medically, it is importantwho you're getting advice from
there's a there's a risk.
Because someone has counselor ontheir door doesn't mean they're
going to

Dave Leake (48:24):
give you or a degree good, most prestigious, good.
Yeah. So there's a you ever readthe book telling yourself the
truth? No, by William Baucus.
He's a therapist. And his, hiswhole thing that he coined is
this, this term misbelieftherapy, okay? And his, his
basic premise is we spend waytoo much time digging in the
past. Not that that's neverhelpful, but that doesn't always
solve the problems. What theproblem is is, he says, like,

(48:47):
what happens to us in life arefacts, but we tell ourselves
narratives about about whathappened that gives color and
meaning and emotion to thosethings. So, you know, your car
gets totaled. You know, you onething you could be like, is,
like, Man, this always happensto me. I The worst stuff. Like,
I it was, it wasn't even

Jeff Leake (49:10):
my fault. Doesn't love me, and no one even cares.
No one asked me about this.
Yeah, or maybe,

Dave Leake (49:16):
or you know, what's gonna happen next. Or you could
be like, Wow, I got that injuryfree. Like, like, I have the
best luck. I got into anaccident. Nothing happened. And

Jeff Leake (49:25):
my insurance is good. I have to pay for it,
yeah? Because

Dave Leake (49:27):
there's always, there's always a narrative and a
story that, which is what

Jeff Leake (49:31):
we teach from Romans 12, right? Don't be conformed
any longer to the patterns ofthis world, but, yes, Be
transformed by the renewing ofour mind, right?

Dave Leake (49:39):
So that is, that's his premise. Yeah, so he goes
the misbelief therapy isidentifying misbelief or lies
that we believe and correctingthem with biblical truth. He's a
Christian counselor, and they'vehad a really high success rate
with that, that type of schoolthinking, I think that that has
a an end of the road. The end ofthe road is, what am I believe?

(50:00):
Leaving like I'm feelingsomething, I'm being triggered.
I'm dissecting this pain. I'mgoing through. What's the
narrative I'm telling myselfabout these or are there any
lies, let's correct them,

Jeff Leake (50:11):
which is basically discipleship, yeah, yeah, yeah.
It really is learning to thinklike Jesus about my life
Exactly,

Dave Leake (50:18):
yeah. So, so I think that there are great, great
depths that can come from theright kind of therapy.

Jeff Leake (50:26):
So if you're going to go to a therapist, you might
want to interview them first andask them what their therapeutic
point of view is, right? Yeah,because whether you have
Freudian and Jungian and there'sother points of view, maybe even
to interview, to say, before Iget into this, I need to know
where you're coming from. Like,are you a Christian? You know,

(50:47):
do you believe in the truth ofGod's Word? We will, you know, I
think that's especiallyimportant if you're a believer.
What's the role of medication?
Yeah, what's the role ofmedication? I think, I think
knowing what your the point ofview of your therapist is, is,
is really important. I agree,because you could get advice
from anybody and it could behurtful to you. So, yeah,

(51:08):
anyway, okay, so I

Dave Leake (51:13):
got one more one more point. Yeah, okay, go for
it. So we did self love therapy,self discovery, yeah, let's talk
about the good side of selfdiscovery, okay? Because I think
we talked about, we can makeyourself an idol. And, you know,
expressive individualism, Ithink that they're the the aim
of self discovery is a goodthing.

Jeff Leake (51:33):
So, so I just recently heard Craig Groeschel.
I think it was Craig Groeschelsaid this might have been
somewhat different, but theysaid the real question is not
what is God's will for my life.
It is really the question, whatis God's will? And until you
establish what is God's will inthe world, you will always over
focus on the last few phrases,what is God's will for my life?

(51:56):
So the very first question youask is, What is God's will in
the world? What is God up to?
And then, in the context ofthat, what is my place? Right? I
have a gift, and I have anassignment, and I live in a
particular generation, but Icannot divorce myself from the
overall will of God in general.
When I think about the will ofGod for me personal, and I think

(52:18):
a lot of times we ask thequestion, as, if we're the
center of the universe, what isGod's will for my life? So God,
you're circling around me, andyou're orbiting around me. So
tell me what purpose you havefor me. Whereas when we are
circling God, we're like God.
You have a purpose in the world.
I want to serve your purpose.
And where do I fit in? Where doI fit in with your purpose right

(52:39):
now, in my generation? And andthat's where self discovery
finds a meaning beyond you.
Yeah. You know the

Dave Leake (52:46):
question, where do I fit in? Is like a repulsive
question to this generation andthis culture. Why? Because the
the whole thrust of culture is,don't fit in. Be yourself. Yeah,
unique. Don't. Don't let Godmake you conform to conform to
any pattern, godly or worldly oranything, be your own unique
pattern, but, but the the ideaof, like God, where do I fit

(53:07):
into your plan? Like you havesomething, how do I come in line
with what that's that's a thatis a very anti cultural thought,
yeah. But So here's, here's thebut

Jeff Leake (53:17):
Jesus says the greatest in the kingdom of
heaven will be the servantYou're right. So even if your
role in God's economy for God'swill is to be a servant like
what does it say? I'd rather bea doorkeeper in the house of my
God than, you know, to stand inthe house of the house of the
wicked or whatever. I'd ratherjust hold the door and be a part

(53:38):
of your plan than to have my ownplan without you, yeah? And
that's the thing. My my meaningin life doesn't come because I
have a purpose. My meaning inlife is because I, I know the
One who created it all, and I'mserving his purpose, yeah, so my
life just as a reflection of hispurpose in the world, and I have
a place to fit into that. Okay,

Dave Leake (54:00):
so, so we got a couple more minutes. I'm
watching the clock, I promise.
Okay. So, so the whole selfdiscovery thing we're fitting
in, here's what I was trying to,trying to get towards. Though.
Think the aim of self discovery,of understanding ourselves well
enough to start to discover whoGod made us to be, is not a bad
name, and it doesn't, let'sstart with God's will first.

(54:21):
Yeah, but I was having aconversation with somebody, I
think, like the self, love,humanism, version of culture
almost has this perspective,like we are a fossil, and it's
like we're an archeologistuncovering the bone, and we're
like, trying to dust it off andchip away at things, and like,
who is the true version ofourselves were made to be? But I

(54:41):
think, like, really, like theway that the Bible talks about
it as, like, clay that'simperfect, that's being molded
to become something that we'renot. So even like James, one you
know, he says, Dear Brothers andSisters, when troubles of any
kind come your way, consider. Anopportunity for great joy. For
you know that when your faith istested, your endurance has a

(55:03):
chance to grow, so let it grow,for when your endurance is fully
developed, you'll be perfect andcomplete, needing nothing that
verse is like when awful stuffhappens, when things are really
trying and challenging. It's agood thing because it's going to
help in your self discoveryprocess, right? Yeah, it's gonna
shape you to become the first.
It's not

Jeff Leake (55:23):
necessarily meaning that the bad things are good. It
means that something good cancome out of the bad things,
which is that you'll be shapedmore into what God wants you to
be.

Dave Leake (55:32):
But so this, this insinuation is you're not fully
developed. Yeah, you're not yetperfect and complete, and you
need something. So

Jeff Leake (55:40):
if you uncover yourself, you're gonna find an
incomplete picture. Yes, and Godwants to take that, mold it and
shape it so that he can make youto be what you're supposed to

Dave Leake (55:50):
be. So the idea of self discovery really should be
being hammered in, blow by blowto the shape. That's most useful
plan of God. That's good. Thatis a very, very different type
of thought than humanism has.
Yeah, that's very good, but it'slike, okay, so whatever is going
on in my life, it is just thehammer blows the Lord is using
to make me into the man or womanthat God's called me to be. And

(56:10):
when

Jeff Leake (56:12):
I look at him and I see that he's pleased with what
I'm becoming, it's in that thatI find true meaning and joy. I
think that's profound. Yeah,that that is. And if I look at
my life and I and I see valueonly is my eyes and my version
of life, I only have what I canprovide for myself, yeah. But if
I center myself around God, Ihave, I have what he can provide
for me. If I define my

Dave Leake (56:33):
own value, somebody else can steal it from me. If
they make me feel bad. That'swhy we need safe space. How sad
that is, yeah? Because if it'san unsafe space, somebody steals
my value, I now feel valueless,therefore my whole. But it's
like, well, it's not based onhow I feel about me, because I
could feel because you're moreabout whatever

Jeff Leake (56:50):
you want to do, but I know who I am in his eyes.
Yeah, we're never going to shakeme. Yeah. Sometimes I

Dave Leake (56:55):
feel a lot of shame or rejection, but that doesn't
shape my identity. Yeah, becauseGod determines that from, yeah,
that's, that's beautiful. Soanyway, I just to me this feels
like it's, it's an antidote fora confused generation, because I
think we have our priority.

Jeff Leake (57:10):
That should be the title for this, not anecdote.
Anecdote for a confusedgeneration,

Dave Leake (57:19):
we'll let the smarter people that I figure out
the title producer, Mackin, butanyway, any closing thoughts for
you?

Jeff Leake (57:27):
So I love the phrase. I was trying to look it
up here, where it talks about,you know, even when our
conscience condemns us, I thinkit's first John chapter three,
it says we still haveconfidence, because God is
greater than our heart. That'swhat you were just saying.
Here's another verse. There isno fear in love, but perfect
love drives out fear. So when wefeel the perfect love of God in

(57:47):
our life, not our own self love,but God's love toward us, that's
the thing that makes us whole.

Dave Leake (57:53):
I love that. I Yeah.
So I guess all this to say allof these things, self love
therapy Well, maybe not selflove, depending on how you
define it, therapy and selfdiscovery can all be tools God
can use to make you the personthat you need to be with the
kind of fulfilled life and joyand purpose and meaning that
you've always desired. But ittakes making sure we get the
Copernican example, yeah, right,of putting God at the center and

(58:16):
fitting into the plan that hehas, as opposed to finding out
how God has perfectly tailoredthe world just for me, right?
Because that just isn't theworld we live in. Unfortunately,
we live in a God, God designedworld, God centric world. You
are not God, and neither am I.
And that's a good thing. That'sa good thing. So hey, well, we
just want to say thanks againfor joining us. We really

(58:37):
appreciate you always being apart of the podcast again. If
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(58:58):
listenership that can find us.
So we just want to say thanksagain for joining us. We'll see
you guys again next time, bye.