Was Jesus a Christian Nationalist?

What is Christian Nationalism? Would Jesus have been a Christian Nationalist?

Jeff and Dave Leake discuss the growing movement of Christian nationalism, its potential to undermine the separation of church and state, and the limitations of various alternatives. 

They explore the definition and impact of Christian nationalism, its good and dangerous aspects, and the potential dangers of idolatry and a culture war.

Lastly, they discuss the complex relationship between Christianity and patriotism in America, acknowledging both the positive impact of Christian values and the danger of Christian dominance.

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Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
On today's episode, we're gonna be talking about

(00:02):
Christian nationalism. So whatis it? Is it dangerous? Is it
good? Is there an alternative?
Is there a better way? If you'rewondering even, what is
Christian nationalism, tune in.
Find out more. Hey everybody,welcome to the Allison Park
leadership podcast. We have ourculture creating conversations.
I'm one of your hosts. My nameis Dave,

Jeff Leake (00:20):
and my name is Jeff, and of course, we're both on
staff at Allison Park church,and I'm the lead pastor there.
Dave is Northside campus pastor.
We're in more father and son.
What makes this conversationinteresting? We talked about
culture creating conversationsis that oftentimes we talk about
controversies, theologies, and,you know, other kinds of things

(00:41):
that are going on in the world,current events. We try to do
that from a multi generationaland biblical

Dave Leake (00:49):
worldview. Examine social and spiritual issues
through a Christian worldview.
Yeah,

Jeff Leake (00:53):
and specifically for church leaders and for those who
are followers of Christ, andwe're trying to interpret how we
should think, because how wethink often shapes you know who
we are and how we behave and theculture we create around us. So
we just want to say, thanks forjoining us. I know we always do
a little bit of welcome. So youwant to do that in terms of the

(01:14):
reviews. Yes,

Dave Leake (01:15):
give people a shout out. No, no new reviews. To do a
shout out today, but we justwant to say thank you for
listening, thank you for being apart of this. If you are first
time joining us in this podcast,welcome to the family. If you're
a longtime listener, thanks forbeing here. And we would love to
give you a shout out. If you canleave us a five star review on
whatever platform you'relistening, that'd be great. But
specifically for those who canlead a five star review an apple

(01:37):
pop, we would really appreciateit. Yeah, we can see your name,
and we'd love to give you ashout out, just to say thank you
for being a part of all this.
Yeah. So

Jeff Leake (01:43):
as we talk today, we are in the middle of July, 2024
this is an election year. We arejust a few months away from the
November election. Currently,the Republic national,
Republican National Conventionis going on, and actually, I'm a
little surprised that thetension levels aren't higher
than they they they were in inyou know, what I thought they

(02:03):
would be. I could just because2020, was crazy, high tension.
Although just a couple of daysago there was the assassination
attempt on President Trump,someone here locally in our
community, because some youknow, happened in our backyard.
We have a campus in Butler,which is where the the shooting,
shooting happened, and then wehave relatives who attend

(02:25):
Ellison Park Church of the manwho was actually killed. So I
guess it's I say the tensionsare as high as I expected, and
then there's an assassinationattempt. But we, of course, are
in the middle of what has been aculture war.

Dave Leake (02:39):
Maybe the divisions aren't as intense as they as
they felt. Yeah, although

Jeff Leake (02:43):
I was surprised, Dave, I was on social media
yesterday, and I was I don't goon to threads or Twitter very
often, but I happen to bereading threads about the
assassination attempt, and whatI discovered is that on both
sides of the political aisle,there are conspiracy theories
about the assassination. Somethink it that it was planned by
Trump, and it's a hoax, and Ithink that it was planned by the

(03:05):
Secret Service and they wantedto kill him. And there's all
these theories that are going,I'm not saying either one is
true or untrue. Honestly, Idon't know who to trust in terms
of sometimes the sources ofinformation. Obviously, it was
potentially, it was very tragicfor the family involved, and
could have been potentially waymore nationally impacting if

(03:26):
Trump had died. But all that tosay, in this election year, we
were debating whether or not towade into this territory at all,
because the political world canbe but we decided we should
probably talk about a term thatis being used now to describe a
lot of people, especially on theright side of the political

(03:48):
aisle, called Christiannationalism. What should we
think about it? Is it dangerous?
Is it good? Is it holy? Is itthe right way to think? Is it
completely at odds withChristianity in general. This is
the term that we want toaddress, and we know that as we
wade out into these waters,there's there's danger here. So

(04:09):
we're going to try to do this ina way like we, like we do with
everything, where we have anopen conversation, we we try our
best to wrestle through somethings, and no way are we trying
to offend. But you know, placeslike this are the places you
were supposed to talk aboutstuff like this is this is how
we've decided to do it, not on,you know, posts or memes on

(04:31):
social media, but in a podcastwhere we can have a meaningful
conversation. So why don't westart with defining it? Yeah,
right.

Dave Leake (04:41):
What is Christian nationalism? Because maybe not
everybody even knows that term.

Jeff Leake (04:45):
So let me read it off Google here. So Christian
nationalism is a type ofreligious nationalism that is
affiliated with Christianity. Itprimarily focus on internal
politics of society, such aslegislating civil or criminal
laws that reflect. Uh, theirview of Christianity and their
role in their of religion, inpolitical and social

Dave Leake (05:06):
life that long I gotta I got a shorter, shorter
one. Go ahead, give me that fromChristianity today. I think what
it is Christian nationalism isthe belief that the American
nation is defined byChristianity and that their
government should take activesteps to keep it that way. And I
think a part of that is andtherefore Christians should be
as active as possible ininfluencing the government so

(05:27):
that we become a Christiannation, yeah. And

Jeff Leake (05:30):
then, okay, read that statement again. Read it
slowly. The Christian that's areally good summary statement to
kind of start us out. So it'sthe

Dave Leake (05:36):
belief that the American nation is defined by
Christianity and that thegovernment should take active
steps to keep it that way. Okay,as a Christian nation, just

Jeff Leake (05:46):
in reading that statement right there you have
people. There are some peoplelistening to who say, Amen,
absolutely. And there are otherpeople who are also Christians
who are like, Absolutely not.
That's incredibly dangerous. Sodepending upon where you are in
your worldview, and maybe somepeople are like, Oh, I never
knew that before, right? Sothere's probably all three of

(06:06):
those reactions to thatparticular statement. So, so
where do we go?

Dave Leake (06:13):
Well, I mean, so you wanted to talk about Christian
nationalism, its impact on theworld, and how we respond to it.
Like, is it a good thing? Is abad thing? Where should we fall
in terms of this issue? It's,it's obviously a huge issue in
churches, because there are somechurches that are Christian,
nationalist churches, yeah,that's like, what they talk
about 10 they tend to beRepublican churches. Will do we

(06:35):
were talking about doing afuture episode that's more on
left wing issues. This one wewant to talk about right wing
with what Christian nationalismis anyway. So I think we want to
talk about, how do we respond tothis, like, is it good? Is it
bad? Is it neutral? What are theparts of it that are good? What
are the part Are there parts ofit that are dangerous as leaders
and as pastors? Yeah.

Jeff Leake (06:56):
So let's ask. What should we do? Yeah. Let's start
with the first question. IsAmerica Christian nation? Let's
begin there, because I thinkthat is one of these. I guess
it's the foundational questionof Christian nationalism. Would
you say? Yeah, sure. So. So Ithink when America was founded

(07:19):
in 1776 with the Declaration ofIndependence, it was formed as a
country that made a specificdecision not to be defined by
any particular denomination. Soin the Bill of Rights, when it
was written and ratified,freedom of religion was put in
there, which was designedbecause one of the things that

(07:40):
was on the table was thateveryone who belonged to America
had to be Presbyterian, or hadto be Catholic or had to be
whatever. Because in Europe,which is where most of the
people came from, there was anational religion, which tended
to be a Christian denomination,Anglicanism. Well, Great Britain
was Anglicanism, which is, we'llget, we can get into that later,

(08:01):
which is really true Christiannationalism, because the queen
or king is actually the head ofthe church. So that's that's
very unusual. That wouldprobably be a real good example
of of of you know what Christiannationalism looks like. But
there was a strategic decisionof freedom of religion, which
led to the United States beingformed as a pluralistic society,

(08:23):
meaning that you could belongand be a citizen in the United
States and not have to giveallegiance to any particular
creed or faith or worldview,that everybody would be welcome,
and everyone could hold office,and it didn't matter if you're
Christian or Muslim, Jewish,Hindu, atheist, whether you were

(08:43):
a Christian, but were Catholicor Presbyterian or Methodist or
whatever, that everyone was waswelcome. So technically, I would
say the United States wasfounded as a pluralistic
society, and there was, for thelongest time on the currency. I
think it's a Latin statement, epluribus unum, which means, out

(09:06):
of many, one, which means thatwe're all different. We all came
from different places withdifferent perspectives, but
we're all together, one nation.
So it's interesting. I was, Iwas just researching this, and I
read that that statement whichwas on the money was eventually
replaced by In God We Trust,because in the 1950s there was a

(09:27):
concern of the with the rise ofgodless communism. And so In God
We Trust was put on the currencyin place of E Pluribus Unum to
say, No, we are a God fearingnation, so the tension you can
see there out of that particularmoment. But historically, we
were formed with pluralisticexpectations, but the

(09:52):
predominant religion of thefounders was Christianity. So I
don't know. That, if that helps,but we would say, technically,
we're not a Christian nation. Weare a pluralistic nation that
has had the heavy influence ofJudeo Christian leadership from
its inception. Yeah, right,okay,

Dave Leake (10:13):
I think already and just on that take, not everybody
would agree with you. Because Ithink, I think a lot of people
think we are a Christian nation,or will believe that we're a
Christian

Jeff Leake (10:21):
nation. Yeah. Well, so there were some states that
were founded that were dedicatedto the worship of God, you know,
there were, there were a lot oforganizations, like Harvard,
that were formed for theadvancement of the gospel. Yeah,
right. So there to say therewasn't enormous influence of
Christianity or Christianleadership from the very
beginning. I mean, you had, youhad George Washington, who was

(10:44):
praying prayers and in public,and, you know, days of fasting
and prayer that were declaredduring moments of crisis and
but, but, I guess you would saythe United States was formed as
a republic, Republicandemocracy, which was designed
with a lot of Christianinfluence, but was never overtly

(11:06):
Christian in its label, because,because, again, it was designed
to be a pluralistic

Dave Leake (11:11):
so let me ask you a question, do you think? Do you
think that Christiannationalism? I'm going to use
another term here, because we'regoing to describe, but is that,
is that, does that ascribe todominion theology?

Jeff Leake (11:26):
So those who believe in dominion theology oftentimes
lean into the idea of Christiannationalism. But I don't think
dominion theology was aroundwhen, when America was founded,
but, but there was an idea as asthe settlers from Europe went
across the country, yeah, andsettled the United States, there

(11:50):
was a doctrine in the 1800scalled Manifest Destiny, which
is the idea that God has givenus this land, and that we're
supposed to conquer this land,Just like the people of Israel
conquered the land of Canaan,that manifest destiny, theology
was actually an improperinterpretation of Scripture, as

(12:12):
if America now is the newIsrael, right in God's eyes,
sure, and that this land isbeing given as a promised land,
and therefore we have toovertake the Native Americans to
be able to conquer this land,just like Israel overtook the
Canaanites. And so thetheological backdrop to the
expansion westward was this badidea of America being the new

(12:34):
Israel and the promised land. Sodominion theology is a
contemporary idea, which is thatI

Dave Leake (12:40):
just read the Yeah, go ahead. Um, dominion theology
states that biblicalChristianity will rule all areas
of society, personal andcorporate. Yeah, so it's almost,

Jeff Leake (12:50):
well, it's the idea that we will operate in such
faith and excellence asChristian leaders, that we will
eventually bring the kingdom ofGod on earth through our
leadership, and then once wehave the kingdom of God
established here on earth, Jesuswill return to take take over
what we've built for him

Dave Leake (13:08):
feels really closely linked to Christian nationalism,
well, but

Jeff Leake (13:11):
it isn't just this nation. It would be every
nation. Okay? So theology wouldbe okay, yeah, kingdom of God on
earth established by Christianleaders in every nation on
earth, whereas Christiannationalism would be that we
were founded as a the newpromised land, and that we were
supposed to take this land to bethe new centerpiece of what

(13:31):
God's doing in the world. What'syour viewpoint

Dave Leake (13:33):
on dominion theology?

Jeff Leake (13:37):
Okay, so dominion theology, I think I think I
disagree with iteschatologically, meaning that I
don't think that things getbetter and better and better.
And then Jesus comes back totake over what we've built for
him. I think actually what whatthe Scriptures seem to indicate
is that there eventually is aspiraling out of control of the
world and the coming ofAntichrist and the Tribulation.

(14:00):
And then eventually Jesusreturns for one final moment of
conquest. So I do believe thatwe should believe in faith that
God has given us dominion overthe powers of darkness, and that
He has given us dominion overour lives, and that we should
expect His blessing and favor inwhat we do. But I wouldn't
believe it in terms of aworldview or expectation that

(14:21):
way? Yeah, so let's but let's goback. Sure. Let's go back to the
topic at hand. Okay, so a lot ofpeople will say, I think
Christian nationalism isincredibly dangerous. Why do
people think it's so dangerous?
You're asking me, yeah, I

Dave Leake (14:35):
think people that think of Christian nationalism,
it tends to be, I'll just say itconjures images in my mind, of
of gun toting. You know, peoplethat, through violent means,
want to take every form ofgovernment back to establish

(14:55):
conservative, traditionalChristian laws. Yeah. So it's.
To I think people feel like it'sdangerous, because it almost
feels like modern crusades, likeyou use, you're able to use
whatever means necessary, yeah,as long as the ends are
Christian, if the ends areChristian, whatever means go.

(15:15):
And I think people think likethat's a crazy yeah.

Jeff Leake (15:18):
Well, a lot of times people use Christian
nationalism, and they put theterm white in front of it. Yeah,
right. White Christiannationalism, which is the idea
that this nation was founded forwhite people who are Christians,
and that everyone else needs toget on board with white
Christian thinking. And if youdon't, you're considered almost

(15:39):
a second class citizen. So it'slike this, we are the dominant
population group, and everyoneneeds to conform to us. Yeah,
that's how it's viewed from somevantage points that it's that it
I don't think that the peoplethat I know that would lean into
Christian nationalism as theirworldview actually think that
way. Most of the people that Iknow are not trying to be white,

(16:01):
Christian nationalist, and, youknow, spread out white
superiority across the world. Ithink, I think it has more to do
with a cultural change that'shappened in our society, and
people longing for the waythings used to be right, because
there was a certain societalstructure that was set up with a
value on marriage and a value onlife and a certain view of

(16:23):
sexuality and in a certain viewof the world, and patriotism.
And then the world changed, anda lot of people who are, you
know, leaning into Christiannationalism, just long for
things to be the way they usedto be. But there is that, that
feeling that it's dangerous nowI think, Dave, it might be good
for us. Because here's what Ioften feel, is when someone

(16:44):
criticizes something likeChristian nationalism and they
say this is really dangerous,what we don't get is the idea of
what they would propose in itsplace. So almost like Christian
nationalism is bad. So whatshould we have? And the idea is
we should have utopia, which islike a perfect world where
everybody gets along andeveryone's equal. And, you know,

(17:08):
there is no problems that existso well, I

Dave Leake (17:12):
have a okay, I want to hear this. Am I going to
disrupt your point if I No, jumpin, interrupt with an
alternative? Yeah, I think, Idon't think that people usually
think of an alternative, no, Iknow they don't. So, so it's
like, it's like, Christiannationalism is bad. What's the
alternative? It's like, well, Idon't, I don't think a lot of

(17:33):
people have an end goal, no, ofwhat things should look like.
It's just, you know, you don'tlike that. That's bad. Well,
that's what we have bad rightnow. Yeah, it's also bad, but
that's extra bad because thatsounds so

Jeff Leake (17:45):
let's compare. So Muslim nationalism is what we
call Sharia law. Many countriesin in the Middle East operate
and in Africa operate off of aMuslim nationalism, which is the
idea that the imams in a cultureset the moral rules for society,
and then everybody has toconform to that. It's a merging
of religion and governance. Andso Sharia law is one form of

(18:09):
religious nationalism, sure.
Okay, other alternatives. Why Isay is Great Britain was
actually the ultimate Christiannationalism. In fact, when I
went to London in November oflast year, and I visited the
great cathedrals in London. It'sreally disturbing to me, because
what is on the stained glasswindows is not pictures of Jesus
and his apostles only. You getsome of that. You get the kings

(18:30):
and queens from the past. So youhave this mixture of monarchy
and religion, right? And so, youknow, the king or queen is the
head of the church. The AnglicanChurch was formed because the
king wanted a divorce. And so henames himself the head of the

(18:50):
church because he rejectsCatholicism. And so the British
Empire was true, complete, youknow, Christian nationalism now
it's not anymore, becausebasically, Great Britain has
forsaken its Christian roots.
Basically it no longer reallyeven believes in much of

(19:12):
Christianity, but in itsoriginal form, it was that okay,
so if it's not if it's notSharia law, it's not monarchy
mixed with religion. What arethe other options? Well, there's
Marxism, which is basicallyanother episode in this in the
future, bro, yeah, Marxism,which is basically where you pit
one class against another andattempt to tear down those who

(19:34):
have power so that everythingcan be shared equally. But
communism, almost communism andMarxism almost always ends in
brutal violence and then quicklymoves into dictatorship, sure.
So you never find in the lastcentury communist Marxist
countries and leaders were sawover 100 million people, 100

(19:59):
million. Billion people, like wetalk about the Crusades as an
evil of what would have beenconsidered, you know, a
Christian nationalistic idea, togo back and take Israel as being
terrible, where 1000s of peopledied, but we're talking about
100 million people died becauseof Marxism in the last century.
So Marxism never lasts long andnever promise delivers on what

(20:21):
it promises, because there isnever equality, which is the
vision we hope communist China'slasted a decent amount of time,
but there is an equality, sure,and when there is, it tends to
be a quality of poverty. Yeah,that's what's happened in
Venezuela, or it shifts intodictatorship. And dictatorship
is another option, which iswhat's happened in Nicaragua,

(20:42):
where you have what was aMarxist revolution that then
became an Ortega dictatorship,sure, and where everybody that
disagrees with

Dave Leake (20:51):
it, but it sounds like this have to be as if,
like, the best option out thereis Christian No, what

Jeff Leake (20:55):
I'm saying is that there is no perfect governance
structure. Okay, so when wepoint and say, well, Christian
nationalism isn't bad. Wellthen, well, what's the other
options? Right there? There are,there are a lot of options.
Socialism is another one,capitalistic social more of a
moderate version of, well,America has become very much
influenced, I don't so you havecapitalism and socialism with

(21:16):
these economic systems. And purecapitalism is bad because it
abuses the worker and pure sosocialism tends to be bad
because it doesn't createeconomic engines for growth. In
Sweden, you have this mixture ofcapitalistic society that has a
heavy emphasis on socialism thathas a queen, right? It's like,
it's like the whole mix of ittogether. So would you say

(21:39):
that's the perfect governancestructure. I don't think there
is a perfect governancestructure. What I love about the
United States of America'sgovernance structure is that it
it realizes, and this is some ofthe Christian influence that
everyone tends towardsselfishness and evil. And if
there isn't checks and balanceson a society, even pure

(21:59):
democracy typically ends up withthe majority becoming a mob that
destroys its opponent. So wehave these checks and balances
built into our society, wherewe're a Republican democracy,
and you have these, the Houseand Senate, the presidency and
the Supreme Court, who checkeach other. And you have the or
they're supposed to, or they'resupposed to. And then you have

(22:22):
the Electoral College, whichmakes sure that the small states
aren't dominated by the largeones. And you have these checks
because the system, and you havethe justice system, which is
designed where you're triedbefore a jury of your peers,
because it recognizes we allhave a tendency towards evil and
to want to dominate each other.
And so there should be builtinto the structure, some checks
and balances to make sure wedon't do that to one another. I

(22:43):
actually think that's abeautiful Republican democracy
has typically delivered freedomto various parts of the world.
When you say Republican, youdon't mean the party. You don't
mean the party. I meanRepublican means rule by law.
Sure, democracy means rule bymajority. So it's a combination
of majority rule with checks andbalances provided by the system

(23:04):
of governance and the law. Andhere's what I would say, I think
that a lot of times theresistance to the Christian
nationalist movement is a desireto remove Christianity as an
influence in the world. Okay,I'm in favor of Christianity,
having influence in every sectorof society, but not dominance,

Dave Leake (23:27):
right? Okay, so, so I think you were gonna talk
about alternative. Did you havean alternative percent? No,

Jeff Leake (23:32):
I just gave you them all. Okay, what I'm saying,
utopia, and then you got, oh,utopia is where everything works
perfectly, and everybody'sselfless, and everybody gets
along like that. That doesn'texist, right? That's heaven one
day. Yeah? So, so we oftencompare Christian nationalism to
utopia, and what I'm saying is,or to nothing or to nothing,
yeah, right. What I'm saying is,I think the idea of Christian

(23:55):
dominance, which would beequivalent to what we see with
Sharia law, is is not how ourcountry was founded, and I say
that

Dave Leake (24:02):
it's dangerous. So

Jeff Leake (24:06):
I don't think Christian dominance has ever
produced the results we hopefor. Like Christendom was what
we called the European continentwhen it was governed by the
Pope, who was the king maker,and he would basically appoint
the kings in various provinces.
It didn't result in revival. Itdidn't result in a harvest of
souls. It didn't produce a greatcommission. It was just simply a

(24:27):
way for the church and the stateto be merged together in the way
it functioned. So from aChristian perspective, I don't
think having Christian dominanceaccomplishes the purpose of
Jesus in the world. And I thinkif we have Christian dominance,
or we think that America is thenew Israel. We are now moving
away from what Jesus said is thecenterpiece of what he's trying

(24:47):
to do in this world, which is towork through the church every
nation, a multi ethnic movementof God in every nation across
the world, where one nation isnot held up over another, but
we're. Are seeing the people ofGod come together to pursue a
kingdom which is not of thisthis world. It's a Kingdom
that's greater. So I wouldn'twant to see Christian dominance,

(25:09):
because I don't think itproduces the fruit that we're
after. I think what we need is amove of God, and we need to see
the church be what it's designedto be. Yeah. So is it dangerous?
I'll say something a little bitradical. Okay, so I don't think
Christian nationalism is as sodangerous to the United States.

(25:31):
I think it's dangerous toChristianity. So yes, it's
dangerous, from my point ofview, because it can lead you
into idolatry, where you're nowno longer worshiping Jesus and
participating with his multiethnic move throughout the the
world, in every nation, throughthe church. And it replaces the

(25:51):
church in in the GreatCommission, with a national
establishment of power, yeah,which is not what, what Jesus
came to produce. So I don'tthink it's our mission on earth
to produce a Christian nation. Ithink it's our mission that we
are a people of God from everynation on earth, every

(26:13):
ethnicity. God's holy nation,his royal priesthood. You can't
substitute that. But now, now,now, should I? Should I goes
down some so I was raised withthis. I was just gonna ask you
this I was raised with, are yougonna talk about statue of
green? I was raised with thisChristian, nationalistic
thinking. And because I love myheritage, I love the fact that

(26:34):
my family came from, from Italyand became a part of this
country I love, I love theRepublican democracy, although I

Dave Leake (26:43):
do want to hear some good news. Yeah, yesterday, I
was looking at my 23andme DNAreport, yeah, because I don't
know, I was talking withsomebody else about this, and it
updated my gene markers. Andwhereas you're 50% so I assumed
I'd

Jeff Leake (26:56):
be, well, I'm actually technically Dave. I'm
38% Italian according to my DNA,that's crazy. I'm 34%

Dave Leake (27:05):
okay, so I must have gotten all you had to give me
34% it's the majority that Ihave out of any other ethnicity.
So, yeah, go Italy. Anyway.
Sorry, going back into this. Oh,by the way, I also think it's
funny, just just to give alittle bit of a background
behind the scenes for behind thescenes for this. So you were
telling us the story, whichyou're going to tell in a

(27:25):
second, about growing up in yourheritage, and one of the songs
you sang. And I just thought itwas funny because you pulled up
this YouTube video from what,like, 1975 or something, of
these people singing this song,and instantly it's like people
Debbie Lynch was like, her Eagleear senses popped out, and she
was like, I was, I was standing

Jeff Leake (27:46):
out in the office space, and when I was playing it
for a couple of people, becausewe were talking about this
podcast, and instantly, when thesong started playing, people
came from everywhere to watchthe video. Like, what are you
guys doing over here? Oh, so

Dave Leake (27:57):
why don't tell us about the video? Okay, so

Jeff Leake (28:00):
I was, I was raised in an environment of okay, born
in 1964 I was 12 years old in1976 during the Bicentennial,
200 years since the founding ofthe United States of America,
and during the bicentennialcelebration, there was
tremendous patriotic feeling.
Let me, let me just describenow. It was a different world
back then. Everyone waspatriotic. You were a Democrat.

(28:22):
You were patriotic. Regardlessof what your racial background.
You were patriotic. Everybodyhad this feeling of America's
200 years old. Let's celebrate.
There was no controversy over Imean, there was a little bit
here and there where some peopletried to burn the flag. There's
this one little moment thathappens where, I think it was
the Chicago Cubs were playing,and somebody jumped out of the

(28:44):
stands and went into centerfield and were was burning the
flag, and Rick Monday, who wasthe outfielder, he ran and he
grabbed the flag away from him,and he rescued the flag, and
everybody went crazy. And thewhole world celebrated, because
there was no controversy at thatmoment over the flag, over the
national anthem, over thebicentennial celebration. So
there was tremendous highpatriarch feeling, gotta

(29:05):
remember that coming out ofWorld War Two, after, you know,
our troops went to liberateEurope from Nazi control, there
was just a high sense of pridein the history and culture of
the United States. Okay, so I'm12 years old. I'm at the
Pennsylvania, Delaware youthconvention. And probably the

(29:26):
most prominent musical presencein our district at the time is a
group called the couriers. Andmany people who, who are here in
this will will remember this,you know the song these, these
guys were amazing musicians andsouthern gospel quartet, okay,
which, which dates this time?
Okay, there was, there was noChristian rock at the time. So
anyway, they sang this song, andit came out on the stage. They

(29:50):
were dressed in red, white andblue tuxedos. They had Uncle Sam
top hats, and they sang thisfamous song called. Statue of
Liberty. Two verses to theStatue of Liberty. The first one
was patriotic and celebratedAmerica, and the second one was
a song celebrating Christianity.

(30:11):
Want to give us

Dave Leake (30:12):
a little bit of the song here you want me to sing.
It really needs

Jeff Leake (30:15):
three part harmony, so I used to sing this song with
an accompaniment track, whichwas like the karaoke thing that
we used to do back in the day.
But so the first verse, should Ido? The words here I have it.
Okay, good. Give me words. No,no, no. You read them, since I'm
talking,

Dave Leake (30:33):
you read the whole thing. Or just the, like, just
the Okay,

Jeff Leake (30:36):
let's first verse first, first one, and then verse
two. All

Dave Leake (30:39):
right. Verse One is in New York Harbor stands a lady
with a torch race to the sky. Bythe way, it's a lot slower than
this. I'm like, Yeah, goingLightspeed, based on the video I
saw, right? And all who see herknow she stands for liberty for
you and me,

Jeff Leake (30:52):
so. And all who see her know she stands for liber so
you get the idea for you and me,I'm

Dave Leake (31:01):
so proud to be calling American to be named
with the brave and free. I willhonor a flag and and our trust
in God and the Statue of

Jeff Leake (31:08):
Liberty. Okay, so the first verse chills going up
and down my spine. They'redressed in red. It's the
bicentennial. I'm I'm 12. I'mcrying at your camp, right? It
was youth convention, 10,000young people together. It was it
was amazing. It was electric.
Okay, very patriotic song. Do

Dave Leake (31:28):
you want to second verse? Very patriotic. Nothing

Jeff Leake (31:30):
wrong with patriotic songs. I think it's wonderful.
So God bless America. I mean,come on now, okay. I remember
God Bless America being sungafter 911 and how our whole
nation came together. Soabsolutely wonderful. Okay, the
second verse then uses theStatue of Liberty to talk about,

Dave Leake (31:46):
there's, there's one lyric that's sort of like
shocking to me to be like, Whoa.
I'm sure it wasn't at the time.
But so on. Lonely Golgotha stoodacross with my lord race to this
guy, and all who kneel therelive forever, as all the saved
can testify, I'm so glad to becalled a Christian, to be named
with the ransom and whole as thestatue liberates the citizens of

(32:09):
the cross liberates the soul.
Oh, the cross is my Statue ofLiberty. It was there that my
soul was set free, unashamed ofproclaimed that a rugged cross
is my Statue of Liberty, yeah,what's

Jeff Leake (32:21):
the, what's the part that just the, oh, the

Dave Leake (32:23):
cross is my Statue of Liberty. That sounds crazy,
well,

Jeff Leake (32:26):
so it was using it as the idea, just like we're
free as Americans, so the crosssets is free as Christians,
right, right? I guess I get thattheologically, it makes sense.
Again, a very moving song mixespatriotism with Christianity, in
a way, you could say this isalmost like an anthem of
Christian nationalism, and itsort of mixes this that, you

(32:47):
know, we have, have this greatheritage in our country and
freedom, and we love what whatthis country has meant to us,
and we we love Jesus, and welove what Jesus has meant to us.
And there's a freedom that weget spiritually, and there's a
freedom that we get nationally,okay. The only problem I have
with this idea is that it sortof puts on parallel the flag and

(33:10):
the cross, as if these are thetwo things that we hold. And in
a way, I think, okay, I can seethe theological implication of
it to say that freedom has cometo us spiritually and it's come
to us nationally. What's alittle bit of a danger is that

(33:30):
we can, we need to recognizethat the cross and the person of
Jesus Christ is so much higherthan our love for country, like
they are parallel. In a way,they the freedom that we have in
Christ is parallel, in someways, it's illustrated by
freedom we have in this country,but the love for Jesus is is so
much greater, and our allegianceto his church is so much

(33:52):
greater, and it isn't this. Soit isn't the same when we look
at what the cross has done forus, Jesus did for us on the
cross and what we have inAmerica, we should be patriotic.
We should honor our country. Weshould love the heritage we
have. I'm not saying anythingagainst that, but I think there
is a danger of holding them tooclosely together, because that's

(34:14):
where we can sort of get this. Idon't know, confusion over where
our real allegiance lies. Youknow Jesus says this one
statement, and he says, if yourlove for me is literally, say
you can't, you can't be mydisciples unless you hate your
mother and father, your youryour you know your children in

(34:36):
comparison, not saying hate yourfamily, saying, in comparison,
your love for me has to be somuch greater than even your love
for your family. And I thinkwhat we have to realize is that
our allegiance to Jesus has tobe so much greater than our love
for our country that it almostseems like hatred, right? So, so
we would say God's not sayinghate your family, but he's
saying your love for Christ hasto be greater than your love for

(34:58):
your family. He's not saying.
Hate your country, but he'ssaying your love for Christ has
to be so much greater. He's notsaying hatred city. I gotta
know, right?

Dave Leake (35:06):
Luke, 1425, large crowds were traveling with Jesus
and turning to them, he said, Ifanyone comes to Me and does not
hate father and mother, wife andchildren, brothers and sisters,
yes, even their own life, such aperson cannot be my disciple,
and whoever does not carry theircross and follow Me cannot be My
disciple. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (35:27):
so, so, so I think we have to distance our
allegiance to Jesus from ourallegiance to anything else, and
we can't marry them too closely,because if we do, we can get a
little confused over what wereally belong to. And so that's
why I say Christian nationalism.
I'm less concerned about itseffect on the country. I'm more
concerned about its effect onChristianity, because it can

(35:47):
become an idolatry, yeah? Likeanything you worship, other than
Jesus, becomes an idol in yourlife. Yeah? I think it's also
potentially bad theology. It isbecause we start to think
America is the center of theworld, rather than that God's
work through the church and theworld in every nation with every
ethnicity is is the center ofwhat he's trying to do. Yeah,

(36:10):
yeah. And we start to think thatChristian dominance is the
solution to the culturalproblems or the moral decay that
we see. And I actually don'tthink that that's the solution
to that problem either. I thinkthat's revival, that's
discipleship, that's, that'sbeing an influence, that's being
a servant, that's, that's,that's so being dominant is not
the goal. Actually, that'sactually what Jesus says. We're

(36:33):
not like the power structure ofthis world that seek to lord it
over others, yeah, but the onewho's called great in the
kingdom of God should be theservant, yeah,

Dave Leake (36:45):
well, I mean, even, even Galatians three, sort of is
a little bit, I think not. It'snot anti patriotic, and saying
you can't be proud of yourcountry, but it definitely
singles us out as our country,or any other identifier, is not
our primary identifier. It can'tbe. I mean, in Galatians, 2326
says so. In Christ, Jesus, youare all children of God through

(37:06):
faith. For all of you who arebaptized into Christ, I float
clothe yourself with Christ.
There is neither Jew norGentile, slave nor free, neither
is there male, male and female.
For you are all one. In Christ,Jesus, we could say

Jeff Leake (37:17):
Republican or Democrat. There's neither
American or Nicaraguan. There'sneither, right? It's black or
white. Yeah, whatever my primaryidentity we have is with Jesus
and His Church, and the primaryconcern that we have is with
what Jesus is doing, not just inthis nation, but in every nation
on Earth. That the United Statesis not elevated in importance in
God's eyes above any othernation that exists, because it's

(37:41):
not central to God's plan. It'sactually a part of God's plan.
Yeah, no doubt, but, but thechurch is the primary way that
he works in the world. So Ithink if we get too caught up in
the dominance of Christiannationalism too, we start to
fight a culture war rather thanpreach the gospel. We end we end
up on with mission drift.

Dave Leake (38:01):
So what does it mean to be caught up in Christian
nationalism, to be fighting inthe culture war? So

Jeff Leake (38:06):
when you're living in fear and anger over the way
the world is changing, andyou're thinking that the primary
way to bring the change that theworld needs is by voting for the
right person or getting theright people in office, or
passing the right legislation,if you think that's the primary
way that change brings, I thinkthen you have mission drift,
because that is never really theprimary way that Jesus teaches
us to bring change in the world.
Right? His primary way is loveand service and preaching the

(38:30):
gospel and making disciples. Isit? Am I saying? Don't love your
country, don't be patriotic,don't vote, don't want to see
the right pilot. Because here'sthe other side of it. While I'm
not interested in Christiandominance, I do think
Christianity should be at thetable as one of the primary
influences in our country. And Ithink sometimes people, they
sort of poopoo Christiannationalism because they want to
get rid of Judeo Christianthinking or influence on

(38:53):
society. I think we should be atthe table having an influence
and a voice in everything that'sgoing on, sure, but not thinking
that somehow America is thecenterpiece of God's plan, or
that gaining political power isgoing to be the answer to the
world's problems, because God'sheart's broken for lost people
all over the world, yeah, andwell, and for people who are
here in our country as well. Soit's, it's like, I guess what

(39:16):
I'm saying is, it's important toto have patriotism. It's
important to be political forthe right reasons. It's
important to vote for the rightcandidates and want to see the
right policies implemented. Butit's secondary to the Great
Commission. So

Dave Leake (39:35):
here's the thing, here's the thing I've heard,
I've heard a lot of people say,and I think, I think this is on,
it's, it's not just from theChristian nationalist camp. I
think that this is it's there.
There are on both the right andthe left leaning sides of
Christianity. There's this ideathat I've heard said, like from
major leaders, that a part ofthe gospel is fill in the blank.

(39:56):
Right with this happening onEarth like, well, it is, and

Jeff Leake (40:03):
it is, it is the king. When the kingdom of God
comes, which is God's plan forthe world, it brings societal
change,

Dave Leake (40:10):
okay? But I would, I would, I would clarify that the
gospel is not social change. No,

Jeff Leake (40:15):
it social change is a byproduct of the gospel,
agreed, but not the, not the I

Dave Leake (40:20):
think this is part of what's confusing is that it's
often talked about by churchleaders as if that social
justice or American, not AmericaChristian values like being
brought forth for the protectionof whatever it might be, like
things that we are fully pro100% like, you know, we've
talked about the four Tim Kellersocial issues that we we stand

(40:44):
for that? Yeah, right,

Jeff Leake (40:46):
but those things all come as a result of people being
transformed by Jesus and and usbeing salt and light.

Dave Leake (40:53):
And so you're saying that the mission drift risk is
when those social changes becomeour primary objective, as
opposed to seeing people come toJesus and seeing the kingdom of
God expand and be the being thechurch making disciples, being
full of love and honor andrepresentation of what

Jeff Leake (41:13):
it looks like, and yet being being salt and light
in our lifestyle and our youknow, desire to see policies
change and and people treatedproperly, and all of those
things. So, yeah, okay. Here'sanother thought, though there's
an I said, I think thatsometimes Christian nationalism
is more dangerous toChristianity than it is to our

(41:33):
political environment. Here'sanother reason when we say that
America is a Christian nation.
Yeah, here's what's problematicfor that, for Christianity's
sake, there's a lot of thingsthat have been done by America
that have been been veryChristian, sure. And so when you
say America is a Christiannation, and then people think,
what about slavery?

Dave Leake (41:55):
Yeah, so the slave trade was a Christian idea,
yeah. Well,

Jeff Leake (41:59):
what about what we did to the Native Americans when
we expanded Sure, what aboutcertain moments of American
imperialism where we tookterritory like Puerto Rico or
Hawaii or the Philippines? Sowhat about those moments? What
about moments when people havebeen treated unjustly or lynched
or sent to prison for the wrongreasons? Is that, what is that?

(42:21):
How? What about when weretaliated against Iraq or WMDs

Dave Leake (42:27):
or what? It wasn't there. There's so much, there's
so much. Or we go, we go, youknow, legalizing abortion, yeah,
was. It was a part of Americanhistory. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (42:35):
right. So, so if it, if we're a Christian nation, and
what we do is Christian, thenyou have dragged all of the bad
stuff from America's history,and you've attached it to
Christianity's reputation. AndI'm not sure. So there are, so
there are, there, there's,there's an example of this that
when Christian leaders in theUnited States of America have

(42:57):
acted Christian, and theirinfluence that has been felt on
society. It's been verypositive. But when they have an
acted Christian, then it hasbeen very negative. But if you
measure Christianity by America,you end up with this really
imperfect picture. Let me givean example. One of the one of
the people that's on our dollarbill, President in the 1820s,

(43:19):
and 30s, was Andrew Jackson.
Andrew Jackson was not aChristian. He was our president,
but he was not a Christian, andhe didn't act Christian. He was
an expansionist. He was one ofthe people that really early
started taking territory fromthe Native American tribes, and
some of the most horrible thingsthat were done between Native
Americans and and the colonistsat the time, or this the country

(43:41):
at the time, were done underJackson's leadership. Okay, he
was running against John QuincyAdams, who was our sixth
President of the United States.
Andrew Jackson was our seventhpresident. John Quincy Adams was
a Christian, and he was a hugevoice to end slavery. So this is

(44:02):
what John Quincy Adams, I lovethis story. John Quincy Adams
lost the presidency to AndrewJackson, and when he did, rather
than fading from public life, hewas still young enough. He ran
for Congress. He became acongressman, and every day he
would get up in Congress andpropose legislation to end
slavery, wow. And every day theywould vote him down, because

(44:23):
there was enough votes to, youknow, to not pass that. And he
did that year after year and dayafter day to became an old man.
So he's a former presidentserving in Congress, which is a
lower position, every day,proposing a hopeless resolution
to end slavery. And they askedJohn Quincy Adams, why are you
doing this? And he said this. Hesays, duty is mine. Results are

(44:47):
God's. I'm here to do my duty. Ibelieve that slavery is an evil
on society, and I'm going tokeep fighting against this until
it ends. Now it didn't end.
There had to be a civil warfought to end slavery. But would
you say, do we. Want theinfluence of Christianity on
society. Well, you do if you getJohn Quincy Adams, yeah, right,
where you have somebody step sotechnically, Dr Martin Luther

(45:07):
King, he was a pastor. Christianinfluence, yeah, in society is a
good thing when it lines up withwith Jesus attitudes, right? So
I don't think we want to removeChristian influence from
society. I think what we don'twant to have is Christian
dominance. Yeah, and that, thatis almost a fantasy that a lot

(45:27):
of people long for. We can goback to the old days where our
culture was primarily, if notexclusively, Judeo Christian,
and everybody thought the same,and everybody believed the same,
and if we could just get theright people in office, and we
could dominate the politicalpoint of view, if we could own
the Supreme Court and thepresidency and the Senate and

(45:48):
the Congress and everygovernorship, then we would be
in revival, and everyone wouldcome into agreement. We would
all follow Jesus, and then Godwould start to work through
America to change the rest ofthe world. I think that's the
myth of Christian nationalism.
And I think what we have to dois realize that we are called to
be salt and light.
Christianity's voice should be aloud voice in society as an

(46:08):
influence, but not as adominance.

Dave Leake (46:13):
I think my my problem that feels it's a weird
line to walk. I understand whyit's important to have a major
influence as Christians onwhat's happening in terms of our
politics, legislation andthings, but I think there has
been such a shift towardseverything, every issue, that

(46:34):
there is moral, social,personal, becoming a political
issue. Like everything ispolitical. It's hard to be in
and around politics withoutbecoming consumed by them. Yeah,
you know. And I think, I thinkas Christians, our primary, our
primary command, is not to be asconcerned with the economy or

(46:55):
our laws or whatever it mightbe, as we are with the expansion
of bringing Jesus glory, notjust like being a Christian, but
of people hearing about Jesus,about, you know, ministering to
the poor, about about doing thethings the work of Jesus, of the
kingdom. And it feels like man,it's hard to wade into that
world and not get sucked in, youknow what I mean, to the tides?

(47:18):
Yeah,

Jeff Leake (47:18):
and because everything is political, there's
an agenda to diminish the valueand influence of great Christian
leaders like John Quincy Adamson this country, where we don't
tell the stories anymore ofClara Barton who started the Red
Cross, or these variousChristian leaders who started
the first hospitals oruniversities, who were started
out of Christian influence.
Christian influence, on on, onthe world, has been a hugely

(47:41):
positive thing, but the idea ofChristendom, or Christian
dominance is actually been avery harmful thing. It when it
is applied in such a way thatcrushes people. And so, by the
way, I think we should add onemore governance structure into
the mix, because we talked aboutthe Christian side. But let's
talk about the Christiannationalist side. Let's talk

(48:03):
about nationalism that is also abad word, this idea that nations
should have borders and have anidentity and a national anthem.
And the alternative tonationalism is globalism, which
is which is, again, oftentimesnot thought. So you will hear
the left side say thesenationalists, and almost with a

(48:27):
disdain, and you'll hear theright side say these globalists.
Right both sides are afraid of asmall group of people dictating
the way that we have to live.
And globalism isn't actually abetter system than nationalism,
it's just different. And so alot of times on the left, you

(48:47):
have people who want more of aglobal view of the world and a
global society and a globalgovernance. And a nationalist
wants a local nation and a localsociety and a local governance.
Hopefully everybody still getsalong together, but there's sort
of a disdain for both theChristian and the nationalism
side of things, without reallythinking of the implications of

(49:09):
what we're actually looking for,which is whatever governance
structure we end up with isgoing to be imperfect, yeah, and
almost always, when it comes tosystems and power, you Have
people who act in their own selfinterest, and many times you
have a few people makingdecisions and and, and you end
up in a place where the littleguy gets left behind in whatever

(49:31):
governance structure thatexists, Marxism, fascism,
nationalism, globalism, Sharialaw, like whoever, whatever
happens to be, there is noperfect political governance
structure, monarchy.
Everything's gonna have adownside to it, and and there
are sinful people running it,and

Dave Leake (49:51):
so you're saying, and our hope should be placed.
And well, we have

Jeff Leake (49:55):
to realize that when we start to get too much disdain
over any particular politicalsystem. System that, unless we
have an alternative to propose,we're wasting a lot of our
energy being mad at somethingthat, in and of itself, is just
stained with sin andselfishness, because the powers,
power structures of this worldare oftentimes very self serving

(50:16):
and aren't built in a just way,and aren't going to produce the
results that we're looking forour allegiance is the kingdom of
God and to the person of JesusChrist, and I think we have to
keep ourselves focused in thatdirection. Yeah, I don't know if
that's that helps anybody. Wehopefully we just maybe we
pulled apart an animal calledChristian nationalism, like we

(50:37):
were scientists, and dissectedit and we pulled it and examined
it in its positives andnegatives. Maybe that's a value,
because people throw the termaround in such frivolous ways
that they really aren't thinkingdeeply about what the
implications are and why it'sgood and bad and what the upside

(50:59):
and downside is of thisparticular kind.

Dave Leake (51:01):
I think in general, the overriding thing is our
allegiance can't be primarily toanything else except for Jesus.
And if our hope and our of allof our eggs are in the basket,
or half of our eggs are in thebasket of something besides
Jesus and the Gospel, I thinkwe're gonna be disappointed.

Jeff Leake (51:18):
And I think it's bad for Christianity to call
American a Christian nation?
Yeah, because it, it brings toomuch baggage. Yeah. I think it's
a highly so, so many heroes whoare Christians, who are part of
the founding and execution ofleadership in this country. But
we, we can't call ourselves aChristian nation, because there
really, there really isn'tanything like that in the New

(51:39):
Testament. So I think that'salso important. I think it would
be good day for us to come backand do an episode on Marxism,
yeah, yeah, yeah. Because theprevailing view of the left is a
Marxist view, sure. Just likethe prevailing view on the right
is a nationalist view, sure. Soit'd be good to come back and
talk about, okay, why are we notMarxists? Yeah, and because

Dave Leake (52:01):
we're, you're saying we're not Christian
nationalists, but we, we, youwould say we're not Marxist
either,

Jeff Leake (52:05):
right? We are Christians who want to be salt
and light in a in a country thathas historically had a lot of
Christian influence. That'sgood, all right? Well, we're out
of time now, but we want to say,by the way, if I ruin that song
for you, if you love you know,I'll just tell you. So that
particular song was a big is abig song for Allison Park
church, because my boss, who youknow, Ron Bailey, who started

(52:28):
this church, that was hisfavorite. He loved that song. I
think that was the last song hesang with the couriers. Yeah, so
I don't think there's anythingwrong with that. Enjoying that
song. Can I just tell you Istill love that song, but as I
sing it and dissect it, I haveconcerns with the side by side.
Nature of the cross, sure, andthe flag, I think there is the

(52:50):
need to differentiate a littlebit. Yeah. There's nothing wrong
with a good patriotic song.
Okay,

Dave Leake (52:54):
you got places to be, so we gotta, we gotta close
this down. But I just felt likethat little disagreement. All
right, all right. Some

Jeff Leake (53:00):
people are going to be like, I can't believe you did
that to this.

Dave Leake (53:04):
Yeah, probably people in their 30s or 20s,

Jeff Leake (53:09):
all right. Well, hey, what careers are listening?
Man, was that a powerfulperformance? Yeah, yeah. I

Dave Leake (53:13):
loved your YouTube video. But hey, we just want to
say, thanks for joining usagain. Thanks for being a part
of this. As always, we wouldlove to ask if you could help us
out, like and subscribe onYouTube, give us a five star
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promote it would be so helpfulto us. So anyway, hope you

(53:36):
enjoyed today in this episode,and we'll see you guys again
next time you.