What Do We Do With Donald Trump?

As the new administration takes office, many Christians are asking - what do we do with President Trump? 

In this thought-provoking discussion, pastors Jeff and Dave Leake tackle this complex question from a biblical, pastoral perspective. 

• How Christians should pray for and respond to political leaders, even those they disagree with?
• The dangers of having a "messianic" view of politicians and the importance of keeping an eternal perspective.
• Practical ways the church can influence culture and politics without getting drawn into partisan battles.
• Signs that a spiritual revival or awakening may be on the horizon for America.

Whether you lean liberal or conservative, this episode will challenge you to engage with the culture while remaining firmly rooted in the kingdom of God. Don't miss this timely conversation!

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
[e-mail]
[e-mail]
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

(00:00):
Today, we're going to be talkingabout the new administration

(00:02):
with President Trump, andspecifically, our question is,
what do we do with a PresidentTrump, regardless as to what
side of the political aisleyou're on, as Christians, we
have a lot to think about anddiscuss. How do we react? How do
we handle the future? We discussall this and more. So if you'd
like to hear more, tune in. Heyeverybody. Welcome to the
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we discuss culture

(00:25):
creating conversations, almostin our old tagline, culture
conversations. Yeah, hey, we'reglad you're here today. I'm one
of your hosts. My name is Daveand my name is Jeff. We're so
Jeff Leake, Dave leak we're bothon staff at Allison Park Church.
We're father and son, and wehave these multi generational
pastoral conversations thatcreate culture or are dealing
with culture, and we want towelcome you. We want to

(00:47):
welcome you today. Yeah, and nonew shout outs today. But as
always, if you want to leave usa five star review on Apple
podcasts, we will see your namethere. And would love to give
you a special call out just fromus today. We're going to be
talking about culture from aAmerican perspective, because we
are in the midst of a newpresidency. Yeah, President 47
of the United States of America,Donald J Trump, took office

(01:07):
couple of days ago, so we're afew days after the January 20
inauguration. And we talked alittle bit about some political
things last summer because wewere in the election season, we
thought we would come back tothis today and ask the question,
What? What do we do with aPresident Trump? Yeah, yeah,

(01:28):
which is a safe way at least, toget the conversation started,
because you will take thatquestion one way or the other,
depending upon your politicalpoint of view. But I think this
is just a very good conversationto have about Christians view of
governmental leaders, how wedeal with political

(01:49):
polarization, what we do whenthings happen that we do like?
What do we do when things happenthat we don't like? All of those
conversations will kind of be inthis mix.
It is a this is such a broadtopic, but I think it's a
conversation point that a lot ofpeople are discussing, yeah, and
it matters for churches, youknow? It matters for Christians?

(02:10):
Yep, because you can respond ina lot of different ways to a lot
of different things that aregoing to happen over the next
four years. Yeah.
And let's face it, there arepeople who are believers who
when Donald Trump won theelection in November, were
ecstatic. It was the answer toprayer. It was the moment of
great euphoria. It was a momentof great victory. It was a

(02:33):
moment of expectation for thefuture and vision. And then
there were also Christians whosaw this as a you know, scary
and you know, something togrieve. I know, I know there
were some Christians who werewho were really needing to talk

(02:54):
through what their feelingswere. After that, many people
were both despondent andfrustrated. And so you have
here. So we here, we havefollowers of Jesus who are a
part of this mix. And so that'swhy we asked the question, like
we did, what do we do withPresident Trump? Because we want
to now take a pastoralperspective on it. We want to

(03:15):
take a biblical perspective onit. We want to take an
empathetic perspective on it. Wetake a historical perspective on
it and try to to navigate ourway through moving forward?
Yeah,not everybody's gonna like this,
but the ultimately, theresponsibility of Christians is
to be unified as a body ofbelievers, and it's to have the
same approach, which I knowthat's never gonna happen among

(03:35):
all nominal churches, but I'msaying as as a Christian
movement. So Unity is differentfrom uniformity, right? It's not
that we all think the samething, but we are all unified in
that we represent a differentkingdom. We represent the
kingdom of God to this country,and we represent the mindset of
worldview of Jesus. And we wantto bring that to bear,

(03:58):
regardless of who's in power,which party wins, and we want to
make sure that we are, you know,our first allegiance is to the
kingdom of God and to oneanother as a part of the family
of God. Yeah, and this, so I wassaying that though, because this
is true, regardless as towhether you are you lean, you
know, liberal or conservative,whether you're Democrat or
Republican or libertarian orwhatever else you are like,

(04:21):
regardless as to what yourpolitical views are, or how we
should handle the border, how weshould handle foreign policy,
how we should handle theeconomy, or dei or any of this
other stuff. I think theresponsibility of Christians is
to have a Jesus perspective.
Yeah. So we want to talk about,what is that Jesus perspective,
and how should we react and liveas both Christians, but also

(04:43):
Americans, because, you know, ifyou are an American, you
you're a citizen with the rightto vote and right to participate
in the process, yeah,and the right to try to enact
change, if change is necessary,and all this stuff. So, so where
do we start? That's, I don'teven know where to start with
this. It's so broad. I mean, ah,everybody know, if you're

(05:04):
listening to this podcast, youalready know why President Trump
is so polarizing. Yeah, likenobody. We don't need to inform
everybody. He said these thingsand did these things and made
all these people angry, likeeverybody knows or why he's so
loved, or, yeah, I made allthese other people happy. I
didn't finish my sentence there,but I've seen so many, I mean,
Trump looking like Jesusposters. Honestly,

(05:26):
I don't know that there's everbeen a politician in my lifetime
that is as loved as DonaldTrump. I mean, the level, there
was a great love for RonaldReagan. In many places, there
was a tremendous love for BarackObama, I would say, kind of
almost an awe and respect forBarack Obama. There was that
same kind of level with BillClinton. I don't know Bush ever
had that,least not my bush, yeah, but,

(05:48):
but, but Donald Trump inspirespassion, yeah, on both sides,
rabid Rabbit. Rabbit passion onboth sides. Yeah, he's Hitler or
he's the Messiah, yeah, and I'msure you've seen them. There are
posters of both, right? Yes,legitimately, yeah. So what do
we do with the President Trump?

(06:11):
Yeah? Okay, so let's start ingeneral. I think we could start
and say whether there was apresident Harris or President
Trump, and previously, whenthere was a President Biden, our
first responsibility is to wantthem to succeed, not necessarily
succeed in their agenda, becausethat may or may not be something
that aligns with a biblicalworldview, but to succeed for

(06:36):
this country, like to do thingsthat are good for the well being
of The nation that we're a partof, and in that we should pray
for them. We should pray thatthey have wisdom and discernment
and understanding so that theycan lead well. This is part of
what we're challenged to do bythe apostle Paul, both in First
Timothy chapter two and Romanschapter 13, that and I think

(06:57):
First Peter talks about this. Weshould be praying for the kings
and those in authorities thatthey would lead well, so that we
could all lead peaceful andblessed lives right in and not
be caught up in unnecessary waror strife or whatever
it's in. First Timothy two. Justlooking that up, yeah, do you
want to read that for you? Goahead. Where he says, This is
First Timothy two, one. First ofall, this is the Holman

(07:20):
Christian Standard Bible. Firstof all, then I urge that
petitions, prayers,intercessions and thanksgivings
be made for everyone, for kingsand all those who are in
authority, so that we may lead atranquil and quiet life in all
godliness and dignity. This isgood, and it pleases God, our
Savior, who wants everyone to besaved and to come to the

(07:41):
knowledge of truth. So I thinkman a life of tranquil, a
tranquil and quiet life and allgodliness and dignity is maybe
not the first reaction thateverybody has no no but let's,
let's just look at one thingthat we would say, This is good.
So within the last two weeks oftime, there's a ceasefire
between Israel and Gaza. Yeah,Biden claimed it was his doing.

(08:04):
Trump claimed that it was hisdoing. Either way it's happened,
either way, it's a good thing.
Yeah, it's a good thing, right?
So if that be, if that happenedbecause Trump came into office
and negotiated it ahead of time,or that happened because Biden's
administration did, or maybethey both contributed to it,
either way. Sure that leads topeaceful and quiet lives in a
region that's been filled withturmoil for more than a year. So

(08:25):
praise God for that. It's thosekinds of things we we hope for,
regardless of who's in office.
Yeah, that good things happen inthe world that are a benefit to
everyone. Yeah. And so we prayfor our leaders that way. Then I
think after that, the next thingwould be, is to look at our

(08:47):
leaders with the properperspective. So I don't know, I
don't know this is unique to therecent generations or not, Dave,
but there almost can be amessianic view of politicians
like this president. If KamalaHarris wins the election, she

(09:08):
will represent and there's afill in the blank that sort of
describes what she will bringinto the world that will make
the world reach a higher level.
Or if Donald Trump wins,President Trump wins the
election, he will bring intobeing the hopes and dreams of
everyone and and so they'realmost like a messianic view of
presidential candidates. And Ithink that that we have to be

(09:32):
really careful in putting ourexpectations that, because this
is where you see you saidearlier, there's this spectrum,
either people see Donald Trumpas the Savior, Messiah or as
Hitler and and the truth is,he's neither, no, right, right,
right? So both, both sides whorepresent Him as is Hitler or
the Messiah are overstating theimportance of a president. Who

(09:55):
the president is. It matters,but it's. Not to be all and end
all, and our hope is in anotherkingdom and a different Messiah
and and so I think that'simportant. So we, we we can
celebrate them, we can lovethem, we can be cheering for
their success, but they aren't.
They aren't to be all and endall. They're imperfect. Let's

(10:16):
see. Let's Yeah,just just elaborate to say that
he's the Messiah is putting waymore on him than any human can
ever, do you know, except forJesus, when it comes back, which
is not a human, I guess. But youknow what I'm saying? And then
Hitler is human. He's got him.
Well, he was, yeah, is he still?
No, he's not fully now, really,well,
he's, he's in a resurrectedhuman body, just like we will

(10:38):
one day. Have absolutely, youalmost preached heresy. There,
Dave, nowhy? I guess fully God and fully
man forever. I thought he wasfully God and fully man when he
was on the earth. And he's thefirst fruits of our humanity. I
need to check my theology.
That's first time hearing itlike, yeah, absolutely,
regardless. Um, and then to saythat he's Hitler is a is a
massive fear based projection ofwhat he could become, which I

(11:01):
understand. You know, regardlessas to what political leader and
what country we're talkingabout, there's always the
potential for somebody in powerto go really bad. I don't think
people realized how bad Hitlerwas going to go before he went
that bad, but I do think you'reright. It's a like as
Christians, we we need to makesure that we are properly

(11:23):
thinking about things, not justtotally reacting out of out of
fear or, I guess the Messiahthing is not sure how far you
want to gowith that. So okay, well, I
think, I think this comes fromthis context of there. There
does so I have now been alivefor, I don't know how many
presidents exactly, but in mylifetime, I'm 60 years old,

(11:43):
there have been so far, 28 yearsof Democratic presidents in my
lifetime, and 32 years ofRepublican presidents, with
Donald Trump being the 47thit'll when I turn 64 and the
next election happens. If I livethat long, Donald will have 36
years of Republican presidentsand 20 years worth of of
Democratic presidents, I wouldsay this, no matter who the

(12:07):
President has been over that mylifetime, none of them have made
everything right and none ofthem have made everything wrong.
They've all been four years thathave been filled with a mixture
of good and bad. They've madegood decisions and bad
decisions. There have been goodthings that have happened and
bad things that have happened.
And I'm sure at the end of thisfour years, not everything will

(12:28):
be perfect and not everythingwill be destroyed. That's,
that's the general rule of mylifetime, right? Okay, so,
having said that, I think whenwe when we put messianic,
prophetic attachments to it. Weover expect what one human being
can do sure to change theculture. What I also say is, in
my lifetime, regardless ofwhether a Republican was elected

(12:52):
or a Democrat was elected, thiscountry has moved to the left
politically. We are way lessconservative as a culture than
we were when I was born in 1964so it's moving more and more to
the left, regardless of who winswhatever election and the and I
would say, with that becomingmuch and must less friendly to

(13:15):
Christianity, sure, right? Sowhereas Christianity was the
dominant religion in the 1960swhen I was born, it's now
perceived to be sort of, youknow, almost passe by many
people or harmful by some partsof the country. So the country
has been progressively moving tothe left over over time,

(13:35):
regardless. And there is thisdeep desire amongst Christians
to want to call the country backto the values that that
predominantly Christian countryhave held over time. Does that
make sense? Yeah, totally. Andso there's almost this feeling
like Trump is going to take usback to make America great again
and conservative again, like itwas in the years where I grew

(13:58):
up. And I do think a lot ofTrump's messaging indicates that
that's his desire. Sure, so, butthat still doesn't make him
messianic in his in the way thatwe need to look at him and
describe him, because, again,he's an imperfect human being
and and we really don't knowwhat, where the culture will

(14:20):
head one way or the other, thatthat isn't really dependent on
the on the president, that'sreally a lot of other factors.
What we have said before is thatprobably there's a need for a
spiritual renewal across thecountry, and that isn't
happening in government as muchas it happens in people's lives,
in churches and in other spacesand then thought leaders

(14:40):
movement as well, exactly. Andmost thought leaders aren't
going towards, you know,conservative, but
the hope is Trump will take usback, right? And the fear is
Trump will take us back.
Yeah, that's true, right? That'strue towards all the not great
stuff that was there.
So, so I. A really interestingconversation with my mom. My

(15:02):
mom's a Fox News watcher and andso she was talking about some of
the things Trump was saying anddoing, and we were driving in
the car together. My mom's 83and she said to me, do you think
Donald Trump's a Christian? AndI said, that's a really good
question, mom. I said, What doyou think? And she said, I don't
know. And so before I give youthe answer I gave her, let me

(15:23):
just, let me just ask you thatquestion, Dave, what would you
be your view? Do you thinkDonald Trump's a Christian? No,
definitely not. Oh, you don'tthink he is. Okay. So why would
you say that? Well, ifwe're talking about Christian
based on how one lives and notjust what one believes, I don't
think he's a Christian. Okay? Ithink I think a Christian, if
all like, you know, to use thecliche, if all you are as a
believer, doesn't mean you'reactually a follower. Okay, can

(15:45):
believe the right things withoutactually being a Christian?
Yeah. So do I believe hebelieves in Jesus? Maybe, you
know, do I believe so?
So this is a hard one to judge,because no one can judge whether
person is going to heaven.
You just ask me, yeah, I'm just,I'm just guessing based on
superficial things, Jesus wouldsay you got to look at someone's

(16:05):
fruit, right? And and so there'sa lot of tone that he takes and
attitudes that he's chosenbehaviors in his past. What we
don't know is if he's going toheaven or not, right? Like he,
like you said, he may have faithin Christ and be saved, so to
speak. Because you don't have tobe perfect to be a Christian.

(16:25):
Jesus has to be moving in theright direction. You may be
following Jesus. You have to beso really, the question is,
less, are you a Christian? It'smore as he is he a follower of
Christ? Ishe? Is he attempting to be a
disciple of Jesus at all? And ifhe is okay, well, there, there
might be something privately, wedon't know about where that that
is taking place in his life, butif it's just from a superficial,

(16:46):
from what I can tell my my guesswould be probably, probably not.
Yeah, what was your What wasyour thing? You said? So
I said. I said, you know, Mom, Idon't think that he is because
to become a Christian, at somepoint you have to repent of your
sin. That's a good point, andacknowledge Jesus as the only
hope for your salvation. And Idon't know that I've ever heard

(17:09):
him verbalize that he has thathe recognizes that he's a sinner
and that he needs Jesus to besaved. I don't know that I've
ever heard him talk about Jesusbeing the Son of God or him
being raised from the dead,yeah? What I do think that he
has is a great respect for Godand a great respect for Jesus.

(17:29):
So there's a lot of people inthis world that I'll describe as
God fearers. Like, they have afear of God, yeah? And like,
Okay, people I used to work withwhen I when I was working for a
landscaping company, they foulmouthed, sleeping around, you
know, drinking like crazy. Butwhen they would swear in front

(17:52):
of me, they'd be like, Oh, I'msorry. I know you're going to
the ministry. Like, I don't wantto mess with God. Like, like,
you know I go to church. I justwant you to know I go into
church on Christmas kind of athing. Like they'd throw that
out there, like they weren'treally interested in pursuing
the life of Jesus, but they hada respect for God. Yeah? They
they so. And oftentimes Godstarts there with a person and

(18:14):
brings them into a place offaith. Yeah. So Elon Musk is in
that category. I just recentlyread a quote from Elon Musk
said, I am not a Christian, butI would consider myself a
cultural Christian. I think thatthe way of Jesus to turn the
other cheek is the best way ofliving, yeah. So I would say
Trump is a cultural Christian.
Yes, yes. He, he, he likes totalk about, he likes to say

(18:37):
Merry Christmas. And he, helikes the values of Judeo,
Christian culture and and he, heprobably believes in a lot of
the Christian morals, eventhough he hasn't practiced them,
right, right, right, like sohe's, you know, gotten in
trouble for sleeping withplayboys, you know, centerfolds
and things like that. Okay, butdoes he have a high respect for

(19:01):
God? I think he does, and Ithink he loves Christians, and I
think he loves to helpChristians. So I think that
that's that's partof that also is because they're
helping his platform that, yeah,true,
right? So he's a politician,right? Exactly, whether or not
he's ever come to a place ofrepentance, put his faith in
Jesus Christ as his personalSavior. There is one little

(19:25):
episode they say they weresaying, you know, you're the
hope for this country. And hesaid, You know, I told them I'm
not the hope for this country,but there is someone who is like
and he said, That's the person,Jesus Christ. So he's actually
said some things like that thatyou would say, All right, well,
sure, if he's not a Christian,he may be very close to becoming
one, yeah, but at some point inhis journey, he would have to

(19:47):
humble himself, repent of hissin, and acknowledge Jesus as a
savior for us to really knowthat that's the
case, yeah, by the way, as Ialways feel the need to do,
because I think people typicallyassume which positions we. Have
you know, I don't think any ofthis is reflecting our political
positions. We're just discussingnow as Christians we
hold Okay, let's, let's talkabout Joe Biden, then President.

(20:08):
Biden, was he a Christian? Well,he was a professing Catholic.
He, he took communion. He, forhis whole political career, went
to church. I don't know thatbased though, on some of his
value system and the way that hepresented himself, that
Christianity was core to him,but I would put him in the god

(20:28):
fear category too, and, and, andprobably another cultural vice
president, Harris, preaching ina church during the campaign and
talking as a person who wasraised in in a church
worshiping, but I've never heardKamala talk about repenting of
her sin and giving her life toJesus, either or even
defining sin in a specific way.
Yeah, exactly, right. So, soit's not, I'm not. I wasn't

(20:50):
critiquing a Republicanpresidential candidate here and
now, our president as in one wayor another. I would say that was
probably true of PresidentObama, President Bush, they all
had some aspects of Christianityand church going as a part of
their life, but I don't knowthat I ever heard them really
profess Christ as their Savior.

(21:12):
Yeah, and I guess this is a hopethat we have a lot of believers,
is that they want theirpresident to be Christian. And
I'm not sure that we've reallyever had like, I don't think
even Ronald Reagan was reallyChristian. He talked about it a
lot. No, I don't know JimmyCarter was. He was a professing

(21:33):
Christian. Was Jimmy Carterpresident in 1976 1980 gotcha.
Gotcha. He was a Sunday schoolteacher in the Southern Baptist
Church. A lot of what peoplewould say that some of his
policies weren't aligned withbiblical worldview, but he was
at least the, probably the onlyprofessing Christian of my
lifetime was Jimmy Carter.
Got it. Yeah, I don't know thatI've ever had, I don't think
there's been any for mylifetime, right? Yeah.

(21:54):
Well, it church goers, sure,probably cultural Christians,
but whether or not they wereprofess professing Jesus
followers. That's a real goodthing. Is it important for for
you to have a president who is aChristian? Never had one,
so, I don't know. Yeah. I mean,I think that's another thing
we can pray for, is that DonaldTrump would come to a true

(22:20):
awareness. So can we take alittle rabbit trail? Sure, one
of the things that's been veryinteresting about the last
couple President presidentialelections is the fact that there
has been a lot of propheticpronouncements about who the
President would be. Yeah, and soa lot of people prophesied
President Trump would win in2016 a lot of them prophesied

(22:41):
that He would win in 2020 andsay he was going to have a
second term. And then he didn'twin. But then when he won in
2024 a lot of those propheticpeople are saying, See, I was
right. I was just off by fouryears.
Yeah, or they stole theelection. Yeah, right. There's
but there was one propheticvoice, Kim Clement, who made a
prophecy in 2007 and you canlook this up online if you're

(23:04):
listening to this. And heactually prop before President
Trump was he said, he Kim. Hesaid, Kim, yeah, Kim. Clement.
He was from South Africa. He'ssince gone home to be with the
Lord. Okay, and he prophesied,did you not know about this? Oh,
he prophesied, in 2007 that thatTrump would become the president
of the United States and that hewould serve two terms. Wow, this

(23:25):
was before he was evenconsidered. Like he had never
said he wanted to be a candidateat that Yeah, right. No. It
wasn't like there it had. Therehadn't been a President Obama
yet, right? And so, and heprophesied two terms, and he
talked about, there'll be a manin the White House who gets on
his knees before God and prayshe won't be a Christian, he

(23:46):
said, but he will acknowledgeJesus like something to that
effect. And maybe, again, youcould look it up. I should have
the exact quote. It wasinteresting to me, because
during this whole last election,I was curious that if he won,
was this prophet who prophesiedin 2007 and then passed away

(24:06):
before any of this came to pass,was he? Was he on target? And
apparently does, does thatprophetic word that was given,
is that a filter through whichwe see him moving forward, still
doesn't make him the Messiah,still doesn't make him someone
that we've seen visibly repentand sure profess Christ. But I
guess when we pray for him, wecan hope for his salvation, and,

(24:28):
yeah, pray that he comes to aknowledge of the truth. It does
seem like vice president Vancehas a professing Christian
belief. I think he's Catholic.
I think he is a Christian basedon what I was hearing you talk
about, yeah, you know, I Okay,so, so what I find to be
interesting is when we talkabout, okay, so when we talk

(24:52):
about Christians, and we'retalking about just famous people
in general, there's sort of thisevaluation you go through, like,
are they really? Are they aprofessing Christian? And where
they are trying to be like Jesusand they because that that's
really the only when you look atthe parable of the sower and the
four different kinds of seedsthat are sown like it's their
only really good seed, if theyproduce the kind of fruit we're

(25:13):
talking about, you know. But Iwant to think it's this whole
thing like, is, are they aChristian? Are they Christian?
What I find interesting, though,is when you look at the scope of
kings and rulers throughouthistory, especially in the Old
Testament, you could see how Godhas His influence with them.
Like, it's not like random andthere's there's God, and he's
doing his thing up here, andthen there's kings, and if

(25:34):
they're bad, God's alwaysopposed to them. And if they're
good, you know, God's blessingthem. Sometimes bad kings are
being used by God for specificpurposes in the world. Or
sometimesbad kings have a good moment and
they repent. Like Ahab has agood moment in his journey, even
though he was a bad king formost of the time. And so, so I
don't think God gives up onbad kings. But even, like, even
like, Nebuchadnezzar, yeah.

(25:55):
Darius, Nebuchadnezzar, yeah.
God, um, Cyrus, who ends upfunding the whole completely
ungodlymen who were not in any way
following Jehovah, yeah,right. But there was a prophecy
about Cyrus, that he would bethe one to send the resources.
And he hears that, and he does,and the temples rebuilt, and
right, the walls are rebuilt. SoI guess that's what we have to
hope for. Whoever the presidenthappens to be, is that they will

(26:17):
be, that God will have an effecton them, yeah, and that he will
move them to do things that aregood for the world, right, for
the kingdom of God?
Well, I think that's what Romans13, is the perspective that Paul
has on this. We've talked aboutthis before, right? But just, I
think this is how helpfulframing, if we're asking, what
dowe do with it and this? So, just
for context sake, the thingswe're saying now, where we would
want God to reveal Himself tothose who are in power that he

(26:41):
would, that we would want him toshow himself. God would show
himself and interrupt them andgive them, give them
opportunities to do things thatare good and that we pray for
that their effect. That would betrue whoever won, yeah,
that'd be true of Putin as well,if we were, if we lived in
Russia, yeah. You know,even though that's hard to
imagine, like living undersomeone that is clearly doing
things that are destructive,even in that situation, because

(27:06):
that's where the Christianslived, under Nero, right? So
which was worse than Putin? Theystill were supposed to have that
perspective to pray for theleader, that somehow, in their
leadership, something good wouldbreak through and and they would
make good decisions, well, andeven, I mean, whether or not
this was good or bad, theConstantine, obviously, in the

(27:27):
third century, you know, I wouldthink that part of that was
because of the prayers ofChristians for the okay. But
going back to Romans 13, it'sConstantine, right? That was
that, yeah, okay. Anyway, okay,Romans 13, everyone must submit
to the governing authorities.
For there is no authority exceptfrom God, and those that exist
are instituted by God. Juststopping right there, ready?

(27:48):
That's kind of wild, yeah? Like,I'm even just, I thought about
this before, trying to imagine,like, because what Paul's saying
isn't just, well, humans willnaturally have authority because
it makes for a polite civilsociety. And how could you
function without one? But Godhas influenced he actually says
those authorities from God,those that exist, are instituted

(28:12):
by God. So there is a part ofwhen somebody attains power that
God is in some way institutingthem, which is a little nuts to
think about. So then, well,because
God is in charge somehow, in Hissovereignty of the affairs of
the world, and he has enoughforeknowledge to be able to
strategically move pieces aroundto advance his cause, in spite

(28:35):
of the wicked, evil nature ofhumanity. Yeah, right. And so
the people that end up there.
Don't end up there outside ofGod's sovereign abilities. They
end up in the in the midst ofhis sovereign abilities. Yeah.
So when, when there's aPresident Biden, we say, okay,
he's the president. Now weaccept that as God's sovereign
part of God's sovereign plan. Weneed to pray now for the best

(28:55):
that can come out of this. WhenPresident Trump ends up in the
White House. We say the samething. It doesn't really change
depending on who the name is,right? It's, it's the same
perspective. Keep reading,okay, so verse two. So then, and
this, this is, this is a reallygood verse for Christians today,
I think, not just in this fouryear term. We're just talking
about Christians in the modernAmerican era. So then the one

(29:17):
who resists the authority isopposing God's command, and
those who oppose it will bringjudgment on themselves. And then
he goes on to talk. I can readmore. There's more about this.
You want to keep going versethree, where you want to read,
okay, for rulers are not aterror to good conduct, but to
bad do you want to be unafraidof the authority? Do it as good

(29:37):
and you will have its approvalfor government is God's servant
for your good, but if you dowrong, be afraid, because it
does not, because it does notcarry this word, for no reason
for government is God's servant,an Avenger that brings wrath on
the one that does wrong.
Therefore you must submit, notonly because of wrath, but also
because of your conscience. Andfor this reason, you pay taxes
since the authorities or God'spublic servants continue. Really

(30:00):
tending to these tasks, pay yourobligations to everyone, tax,
those you owe taxes to tolls,those you owe tolls, respect to
those you all respect and honor,those you honor. I It's
interesting, like, even, likeeven, like this, Christians
should not in any way cheat onor avoid taxes. Yeah,
right. That should haveintegrity. We should be

(30:20):
honorable. And this is, this issomething I think we've failed
miserably at. Our failingmiserably, not me. I mean,
Christians in general, in ourculture, is that we speak
dishonorably too often aboutthose that we disagree with.
Yeah, so we should speakhonorably about President Trump,
President Biden, Vice PresidentHarris, Vice President Vance.

(30:40):
Vance, even when we disagreewith them, you can speak
prophetically to the situationand yet honorably. You can say,
I think that's wrong, but um,without necessarily being
slanderous or exaggerating orwhatever. So having a mindset of
honor and recognizing this allfits into God's sovereign plan

(31:02):
is as a part of the story. Yeah?
Well,it's like, it's like, isn't
that? It's First Corinthians 13,where he says, Love is patient,
love is kind, right? I mean, theway that we speak about people
says it is not proud, it is notrude,
it keeps no record of wrong.
Yeah, you're always believing,always persevering, always
hoping. And this is, this is theway Christians sort of respond
to all political leaders in ourlife, rather than letting

(31:24):
letting the culture be our voiceand make us react out of fear
and say things that are notbecoming or not honorable. Okay,
so, so let's, let's, let's moveto a different topic. Sure go.
Actually saw this post by Pastorchoco de Jesus, who's going to
be with us at our Igniteconference. And I loved how he

(31:44):
put this so he had a picture ofDonald Trump's inauguration, and
he writes this on january 20,2025, President Donald Trump was
inaugurated as the 47thpresident of the United States
in his inaugural address,President Trump emphasized a
commitment to restoring commonsense and governance and
reaffirming traditional values.

(32:06):
He highlighted that the officialpolicy of his administration
would recognize only twogenders, male and female. He
also expressed gratitude to God,acknowledging that his life and
leadership are God guided bydivine providence, good right.
He pledged to protect religiousfreedoms. Wonderful, condemning
behavior that undermines thefoundational beliefs of people

(32:28):
of faith, awesome. I 100% lovethat. As certain people
celebrate this moment, we mustsee it as an opportunity to
engage this governing culturewith truth. The church has a
divine mandate to proclaim thegospel and to be salt and light
in a world that desperatelyneeds both spiritual and moral
clarity. As believers, ourmandate is secure regardless of

(32:52):
political decrees or culturalshifts. Our calling comes from
God and it remains steadfast inevery season and or every
administration. That's basicallywhat we just talked about right
additionally. Now I love this.
He says, as the deportation ofundocumented immigrants
continues, let us remember theseindividuals should be treated
with love and care. So now what,what choco has kind of done here

(33:13):
is he said, I celebratePresident Trump. I celebrate
what he said in his speech. I'mglad he's trying to protect
religious freedoms. I'm gladthat he acknowledged God all
this is good. Now, as thedeportations happen, I want to
prophesy a little and say, becareful. Remember, these are
people. He says, not everyundocumented person is a

(33:34):
criminal. The majority aresimply seeking a better life for
themselves and their families. Iurge that deportations, if
carried out, be done in a humaneand fair manner. Scripture calls
us to love and defend themarginalized and the poor,
trusting that God is working ontheir behalf. As believers, let
us not be driven by fear, but byfaith, standing committed to
speaking truth to power andadvocating for justice and

(33:57):
compassion. This is a greatbalance. It is. Now. There's
more in this post. He saysscripture reminds us of our duty
to intercede for our leaders.
And then he quotes FirstTimothy, chapter two, pray for
our leaders, asking God to grantthem wisdom, humility and
discernment. Let's remainfaithful to the church's
mission, engaging with culture,to stand for truth, justice and
to extend grace to those inneed. So he's basically saying,

(34:20):
I, like a lot of the things he'ssaying, he's he's aimed in a
good direction. I'm cheering forhis success. I pray that he does
things well when he stepsoutside of the way I think we
should be acting. I'm gonnaspeak up. Sure. I think that's
actually how we should approachevery administration. I agree.
Yeah, like the things that aregood, this is good things that

(34:40):
aren't, you know, to the lastadministration, we could say, we
could have said things like,Hey, this is really great that
you're trying to be inclusive,and you want to uplift the poor,
and you care about people, butyou know where you're, where
you're blurring the lines on onsexuality and biblical values,
like we. Have to speak up here,because that's, that's, that's

(35:01):
not what the Scripture teaches.
I think, I think there has to bethis approach with every
administration, not to, youknow, be so captured by one
particular person or party thatyou lose your prophetic voice to
speak when things aren't right,yeah, or, let's, you could say
prophetic voice, or we couldjust say, lose our faithfulness
or allegiance to Jesus above aparty. I think it's very easy to

(35:24):
equate whether you're a democrator republican or in the middle,
to equate your values and belike, well, they represent these
things. So they're there for youknow, this is good for our
world. This is good for our youknow, even for churches. And
then to equate the other part ofall the bad things they can you

(35:45):
can blind yourself to the badand only see the good, and then
blind yourself to the good onlyto the bad, as opposed to sort
of standing in the middle,because, yeah, in general, with
everyadministration, it's the middle.
I think that's a misnomer, allright, I think it's standing to
the side, sure? Probably true,right? It's or to stand, it's to
stand above in a way, or it's tospeak from another realm, right?

(36:07):
Because it really isn't themiddle. I don't think the truth
is in the middle. I think thetruth is in a different place.
It's the kingdom of heaven thatbrings truth
to the earth, because you're anambassador of a different
nation, yeah? So sure. It'slike,
well, we're trying to splitthat, this down the middle
between the two parties. Iactually think that it's, it's

(36:28):
where you are in agreement withone particular party's platform.
100% be in agreement 100% youshouldn't back off from that at
all, assumingit's in line of what the Bible
teaches. Yeah,it has a kingdom world view.
It's 100% right, right. Stand100% with Yes. Don't go to the
middle. Yes. Don't go to themiddle on that one, right,
right, right. Where there's atension between two. You may
negotiate in the middle, butthere's probably a biblical
worldview that speaks to bothsituations and that. So I don't

(36:51):
think it's the middle. I thinkit's that we're not captured by
either side, because we belongto a third side, yeah, that is
speaking into both situations,yes, and that's because, because
I always felt like I'm notreally in the middle. I don't
feel like I belong to either onecompletely, I but I feel like, I
feel like I can see the flaws inboth and the positives in both.

(37:14):
And you know, where, where, youstart to see things that make
you afraid is, is where youwhere you have to sort of manage
your own emotions there. That'sone thing that I think we should
talk about, Dave, is that a lotof people, if Kamala had won, a
lot of people had been panickedwhen Trump won. A lot of people

(37:35):
are panicked. So there, thereare, there are a group of people
right now that are very afraidand very upset, and so what
would you say to them? Actuallyhad a person during this fasting
and prayer season, they sent methat prayer request. I'm glad
President Trump won. I'm a Trumpsupporter, but I'm praying for
everybody who's afraid becauseTrump won, yeah, and I'm asking

(37:55):
God to give them grace and peaceduring the season, because I
know it's not easy for them.
That was very mature. So whatwould you say to them, Dave,
to those that are afraid rightnow because of the
administration, I would say, Iwould say that I think the
values that they are afraid arein jeopardy because of the

(38:16):
current administration. I thinkthey could continue to pray for
God's will for them, like youmentioned, the deportations and
the concern of people beingmistreated, or, you know, yeah,
just just generally overlookedor not treated well, like, just
as one of the examples, I thinkpraying for those people. I
think having, I do believe whatPastor choco talked about, how

(38:37):
they're a value to God. ThatGod, I mean, all of them are
valuable, but I think the waythat we treat them as Americans
means something. I do think it'sa huge thing. So I think like
standing for for truth andcontinuing to pray for those
things is important. I thinkthough, just declaring the
promises that you know, that Godis in control, that no matter

(38:59):
what's happening, like that,even whether it's good or bad
that, like we serve a God who'sbigger than this, I think, for
people that are in fear, findingways to partner with Christians
in general, whether or notthey're on the same side of the
political aisle, like findingways to unify, strengthening the
church in general. And so Iwould say for people that tend

(39:20):
to be Republicans, if it wouldhave flipped. And you know,
President Harris was thepresident. Now, I think, like it
would always be our duty to cometogether, to lock arms as
Christians, as the church, to bein unity, to speak truth for
these same things. Soyou find strength in your
spiritual community or church.
You find confidence in the Wordof God. Yeah, what you said, you

(39:41):
find hope in the fact that youcan raise your voice and speak
up for things you don't agreewith, and work and work for the
positive. I would just say toohistorically. So again, because
I've lived life for a long time,it's not to say that things
couldn't go really, really bador become really, really great.
Sure. It's just that, for themost part, regardless of who's

(40:02):
in the White House, noteverything's perfect and not
everything's horrible. Like, ofcourse, I didn't live through
World War Two in the Holocaustera, and I didn't experience the
great depression we had. Did hitthe pandemic? Okay, that that
was not easy to listen great,but, but, you know, I think we
over emphasize what happens inthe world because of who's in

(40:23):
the White House? Sure, I thinkit, that it because of the news
and the constant push that italmost becomes elevated to this
level of importance. So muchhappens locally? Yeah, I agree.
So much happens in yourcommunity, and the people that
are leaders in your community,and the people that you do life
with. So that stuff is happeningin the White House, I get it,
but, but you can find peace inthe place where you live and

(40:45):
making things better where youare, yeah, and, and so.
So to your point, before youjump off this, we've mentioned
this book before, but, but whenyou read factfulness by Hans
Rosling, yes, it's also justlike, well, thing like, he talks
about how things can be gettingbetter, but not good enough yet.
And what tends to happen withthe news cycles is, is like,

(41:05):
they actually, I mean, theyjust, it's easy to prove they
make so much money off of fearmongering. So if your political
party lost, then it's gonna belike, Look how every single
thing is horrible. It's Hitler,and then, you know, and Elon
Musk is Hitler and, and thismust be a secret thing, and
they're, you know. And I'm notsaying that every accusation is

(41:28):
false or that everything isgood, but it's like, I think we
have to realize, like, feed theconspiracy. Yes, not everything.
Like, like, the stuff that youhear on social media or in the
news is always going to amplifyit, because that's what makes
the money. Actually, mostAmericans are more victimized by
fear mongering and news thanthey are by politicians. Yeah?

(41:49):
Like, I guess it depends on theissue, but like, the media has
an active investment, a inkeeping you what do you call
conflict of interest? Yeah, andnot actually spreading a
balanced truth of what's reallyhappening, because that actually
decreases engagement. You'reless likely to buy newspapers or
click on ads or watch programs,yeah. And so I think that's

(42:11):
probably like things areoverblown, and every
administration because they needto be overblown for for the
media to make the moneythey make. Yeah. So, so if
you're afraid, put yourconfidence in God in His Word.
Realize that life is bigger thanthe White House. Work for change
locally. Raise your voice whenyou need to. Raise your voice.
Find, find significance incommunity. All those things if

(42:33):
you if you're thrilled beyondbelief that Donald Trump is the
president of the United States.
What should we say to that groupof people? Here's what I would
say. So there was this gamebetween Ohio State and Michigan
College football, and Ohio Statewas way favored because they
were better this year, andthey've been being beaten by

(42:53):
Michigan every year for the lastfive or six Michigan won
unexpectedly, and they tried totake their flag and planted in
the center of Ohio State'sfield, and there was a brawl
that broke out. I would say likethis, if you are a thrilled
Trump supporter, don't bearrogant. Be sensitive. Not
everybody thinks like you do. Beaware. Don't plant your flag on

(43:16):
the opponent's field. You don'thave to constantly compare Trump
to Biden. Look how great Trumpis. Look how bad Biden is. Like,
be humble and and don't loseyour attitude over the victory.
I also think it's just, it'simportant to recognize that,
that there are potentially badthings that can come out of the

(43:39):
administration. Yeah, like it's,it's, it's just, I think
sometimes it's like, youradministration wins, and you're
just like, it's great and allthis. And then you, you're like,
you close your eyes to the stuffthat isn't Yeah. Or you're like,
ah, there. That's just thesepeople that are saying that kind
of thing. But it's like, yeah,but it might really not fully be
like that. And just becauseyou're not experiencing the pain

(43:59):
that makes it real to youdoesn't mean it's not real.
Yeah? And we should be sensitiveto pain in general as
Christians, so I think it'severything you said. And
but for those of who are happythat he won, we should still be
working on the local level forchange, because most things
happen locally. Yeah, right. So,so don't think, oh, all the
problems are solved. We have aRepublican in the White House.
We're now moving back to thelocal values and worldview, it's

(44:23):
going to be all perfect, andeverything's going to be great,
because ultimately, nothingchanges unless we change, yeah,
and we, we are still in greatneed of a revival in our
country, absolutely. Yeah. And,you know, the election doesn't,
doesn't, all of a sudden, makethe world a Christian place.
Yeah, so, so we we still have toroot into things that bring

(44:47):
genuine spiritual chains acrossthe board. I don't know that
we've handled this perfectly,Dave, but I guess it's kind of a
Columbus clumsy conversation,and in some ways, about a
happening that's recent to us,where we're trying to bring that
that but. Don't know, youcould say clumsy, but there's if
we're talking about, could isanybody that's going to listen
to this be upset about how wehave maybe, but this, this is

(45:08):
just the conversation that wehave to have as Americans. And a
new inauguration with the withan administration like this, I
think, I think we're saying,basically, guard your mouth with
honor, fight with Unity, choosenot to be offended about, you
know, what you can like, like,you know, what's the you
know, I do have some hopes. I,I'll tell you, maybe these are

(45:30):
unfounded hopes. But I do havesome hopes. I, I feel in some
ways, like maybe the level ofpolarization is dropping
slightly. Iagree with you. Is that true? I
think so. It it,it feels like cancel culture is
not as intense,yeah. I here's what I think. I
think that there have beenextremes on both sides, and
people are tired of it, andthere's a lot of people that

(45:54):
tend to be a little more in themiddle, and a lot of things I'm
not I agree with what you said,as far as the outside
perspective, yeah, but just evenpolitically, yeah, okay, okay,
I'm exhausted. Calm down. Likeit's not ending. You told us it
was ending. You know, the worldwas ending 15 times. You can
only say he's the Messiah, he'sHitler so many times before

(46:14):
people say, like, I don't thinkthat guy wasn't Hitler. That guy
wasn't Hitler, yeah. And it'sjust like, okay, like, like,
let's I think that there's stillinflamed extremes, but I do
think that that there is somelevel of rationality, of to
a little more normalcy. Is thatpossible? I'm a little afraid to
project that yet, but I do thinkeven though what normalcy means,

(46:37):
but it just didn't feel thispolarized in the in the 90s, in
the 2000s it did. It was ampingin that direction, but it didn't
feel like ever since 2020 it'sbeen, oh, well, maybe going
back, it's probably, maybe it'sbefore that.
It was 2016 with the Trumpelection. That was, that was
probably when it first blew up.
Like,I guess it all depends on what
Trump does and how he talks,yeah, and if he leads well and

(47:02):
he tones down the rhetoric thatcan come across so strident to
some people, maybe he aids.
Maybe that's what we should bepraying for, is that God would
help him to lead in a tempered,wise fashion, you know, so so as
to not inflame the polarization,which seems to be diminishing to

(47:24):
some degree.
What I see too is it just, itseems like the move of God
that's happening across churchestoo is a sign of I think so. I
think a lot of churches arefocused on what it means to be
healthy follower of Jesus, ondiscipleship, on getting back to
the pure gospel, on if, ifwe're, if we're being sensitive

(47:45):
to seekers, we're not wateringdown. We're saying still, like,
there seems to be movementstowards, like, getting back to
purity and getting back towardsfollowing Jesus with all that we
have. And I think that maybethat, like, if you sort of all
ofthe polarization in the world,
shaking and political turmoiland Pandemic issues purified the
church from some of itssuperficiality, and has brought
us back to a place where we areon a more stable place, which

(48:08):
then allows us to contribute tosociety in a more stable way.
And Iwonder if God isn't shifting
some things in our country ingeneral. Okay, I'm not saying
based on candidates oradministrations. But I just
mean, above all of that, and theway that we kind of see in
Romans 13, wow, like, that'sthat's at least very hopeful and
praying for, and is that, isthat we're man, I just what I,

(48:30):
what I'm believing for, is thatwe're on the verge of another
great move of God. Well, youknow, do you feel that as well?
OrI long for that. I want that to
be true. I don't know that'swhat I'm fasting and praying for
right now. So wouldn't that beawesome? That's
what I feel like. I have faithfor that, that we're on, we're

(48:53):
about to see God do somethingthat will be a generational, you
know, generational moment, youknow, maybe even like a another
great awakening, where we seejust revival across our nation.
But yeah, absolutely I God is inthis no doubt. You know what I'm
saying? God, God. Over the lastnumber of years even, I'm not

(49:13):
just saying in this new era,just to be clear, because I
don't, I don't think I'm a realpartisan person with this I I do
find myself probably a littlemore in the middle of a lot of
things, even if I'm you even ifI'm you know what I'm saying,
being a different place, but,but I just sense that God, God
is in this that God is going todirect things I and I believe we
I believe as the church, notonly do we have to be unified
and guarding our mouth is honor,but we need to be people of

(49:35):
faith that are believing for forbetter things, that are ready to
boldly preach the gospel, thatare ready for a new strong era
of the church. So yeah, that'swhat my hope is for. Yeah,
well, that's good. I'm receivingthat. I was just thinking about
what you're saying, Dave, and II'm glad to hear someone from
your generation saying that,that I'm hopeful for a move of

(49:56):
God and for our own awakening.
And I sense this, and I'm alsoglad. Hear you say what I was
sensing, which is, it feels alittle less polar, polarized
than it was. Ithink it is. I even just, I'm
not on social media. I deletedall that a couple years ago. My
wife is and she's just like,like, you can get into, like, a
certain part of Tiktok orInstagram that you it's like an
echo chamber. But a lot of whatshe's seeing is, like, a lot of

(50:18):
people are sick of this. Likethere's crazy polarized people,
and you could find their soundbites, but they don't have the
same influence. Where it's likeeverybody believes this and
everybody believes this, andyou're on one side, I think, I
think there's more of anacceptance. So
here we are. We're at thebeginning of 2025, and the
overall mood, we would say, ishopeful. We are hopeful and

(50:41):
we're hungry for God to move.
Well, no doubt. And yet we'realso vigilant, because we don't
want to let anything that takesus in the wrong direction go
without notice or without voice.
But we're also just, we're juststanding and saying, Okay, God,
do something great again in oursituation. Absolutely, we need

(51:01):
you to move and bring ustogether, bring bring people
back to you and help us to seethe kind of world that you want
us to to live into. That's,you know, you talked a lot about
speaking prophetically intosituations. To speak
prophetically, you need a wordfirst to speak from Yeah, that's
what you're speaking here'shere's what the Lord is going to

(51:22):
do, or what he's saying. I thinkthat that's what churches are
are needing right now, is a realsense of what are we
prophetically speaking into,what's the Lord doing, and what
are we believing for, and whatare we hoping for? I do think
it's I do think there's ahopefulness and an eagerness,
but I think what the next thingis now is, what are we
prophesying into? What is God?

(51:43):
What's the era God's bringing usinto? You know what I'm so it's
wild. If you look back 100years, Dave, there is this,
these parallel moments. So in inthe 19 teens, the 17, 1819,
there was World War One, whereall these people died, and there
was the Spanish flu pandemic,right? And it felt like the

(52:03):
whole world was coming to an endto a lot of people who were
living at that time. And thencame the Roaring 20s, and the
20s came right after that, andthey were a time of great
economic prosperity. Anddon't project that the Great
Depression, yeah. Well, sothat's the thing.
Like, every season you're in istemporary, sure, right? Then
came the Great Depression, thencame World War Two, yeah? Like

(52:25):
so and Hitler, then actually didshow up, right? So, so whatever
we're living in today is temp, atemporary season. Yeah, we are
only stewards over the momentthat we've been given. I don't
have that many more presidentsto see elected before I go home
to be with Jesus. I'm six yearsold. You got, well, I do, but I
mean, I probably have seen morepresidents than I'm gonna see

(52:47):
probably, right? Okay,so, yeah, definitely, yeah. So
unless you're 120 right?
So whatever, whatever like, I'ma steward of this moment. I was
a steward of the last 510,years. Yeah. And even if it is
less polarizing, and there is amove of God. We realize every
season has a length to it, andafter that can come something
really great or really bad,yeah, and we're supposed to live

(53:09):
in the moment that we're in andsteward it well, but to speak
into the world so that the nextseason becomes even better than
this one, yeah? And so yeah. ButI am hopeful. I am hopeful maybe
we're starting to see somepositive changes in the world
that that that could affect notjust the direction of our
country and the culture. Maybeit's better to say, like the

(53:31):
direction of our culture, sure,but then also the way that God
is working inthe church. I think overriding
great administrations is astrong church like, I think,
regardless of theadministration, if we see a
strong church that pursuespurity and holiness and the
power of God, but also iswinning people, people to Jesus
and is compassionate for thosethat were supposed to be

(53:53):
compassionate for good, a strongchurch influences culture, I
think a really good word, Dave,actually, more than the
administration would. Yeah, youknow. And I think actually, a
strong church can win high levelpoliticians to Jesus, where
they're not cultural Christiansnow, but they're real disciples
of Jesus that are in power. Imean, good. So that's, that's
what I, I think, regardless ofwhat you do here. So I think I

(54:13):
understand part of what you'resaying too, is a lot of these
cultural podcasters, the JoeRogan, the Jordan Petersons, the
all these guys that have been inthis conversation, a lot of them
are coming to places wherethey're talking about, you know,
Jesus is Joe Rogan there? Idon't think he's there, but he's

(54:34):
considering it. I've heard himtalk about it. Like, a
few years ago, he was like, Idon't know any religious people
that aren't idiots kind of athing? Yeah, no.
I mean, you do hear, you do hearpeople having conversations
about faith?
Sure. Well, Jordan Peterson isfully there. I'm not sure that
he's I actually heard recently,he said they asked him, Do you
believe Jesus is God? And he himto God for a minute, and then he
said, Yes,Wow, that's crazy, because he

(54:55):
often talks about it from a waythat feels humanist to me. Okay,
like he everything is anallegory or an analogy for the
human condition.
Well, I didn't catch the rest ofthe sentence. Maybe he qualified
it after that. But you do seecertain prominent people in the
world that are having epiphaniessay, Yeah, to say, I think, I

(55:16):
think there's something to this,and that's really encouraging,
yeah, well as well as, as wellas, like, we did this podcast
recently about Philippastor Mitchell. Mitchell, I'm
sorry, wow,I just saw some Philip Anthony
Mitchell, thank you. It appearslike his church is in serious
revival. Yeah, I'membarrassed. That is not his
name wrong, but yeah, it's alsocrazy. And, you know, just like

(55:38):
other, I've seen other movementsover the last couple years that
way. So, yeah, I, yeah.
I, I think, I think we have totake a position of of great hope
for maybe we're on the precipiceof something, you know,
legendary, that God's gonna do.
I mean, you saw your, you sawsome of that in the late 90s,
but it's been a little whilesince we've been there, and

(55:59):
that's, that's, I believe Godwants to
do that. I saw some of it in the70s. Yeah, the Jesus revolution,
the charismatic movement, theera that I grew up in, was a
time of people turning to God indroves. So we're
about do now, right? You'd say,wouldn't it be awesome? We're
about do it's been about 30years since the last one, so I

(56:20):
think, I just think we need topush for that and believe for
that, have faith for that. Yeah,amen. So all right, well, that's
probably as far as we're goingto go. Anything else you want to
add or close on? No Go for it.
Well, we appreciate you being apart of this as always, and
regardless as to what yourviewpoints are on the the
politics of America, we wouldjust say, you know, we hope you
stand with us and believing fora United Church and for an era

(56:41):
that God's gonna bring in ofrestoration of things that are
broken. So you know, one of theways we would just love to ask
for you to partner with us is ifyou can help us make this a
little bit more known byreviewing this with a five serve
you on whatever podcast platformyou're on, or you can like and
like and subscribe on YouTube,share this with other people.
All that really goes a long wayjust towards helping us to

(57:03):
spread the word. So we wouldappreciate your help with that,
if you wouldn't mind. But ingeneral, thanks again for
joining us. We'll see you guysagain next time you.