What is God's Role in Success?

In a culture obsessed with size, speed, and status, Jeff and Dave ask the question of whether Christians should be focused on a different measure of success.

Dave and Jeff will challenge you to rethink your definitions of achievement, question your motivations, and discover the joy of partnering with God in ways that may look unconventional, but bear the unmistakable fruit of the Spirit. 

Whether you're a pastor, a business leader, or simply someone seeking to live with greater intentionality, this episode will equip you to lead with humility, welcome the overlooked, and find true fulfillment in the journey, not just the destination.

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@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
Today, we're discussing the question, what

(00:02):
part of our success does God getcredit for? In reality, there's
a lot of things we can do thatare just going to work right. We
can build strategies. We canwork hard. We can be intelligent
with how we invest our time andour money. How do we make sure
we're staying on track with whatGod's asking us to do, and how
do we achieve the kind ofsuccess that God wants us to

(00:24):
have, and not just material orpublic success? If you'd like to
hear more, tune in. Heyeverybody. Welcome to the
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we have our culture
creating conversations. I'mDave, and my

Jeff Leake (00:37):
name is Jeff, and we're glad you're with us today.
Of course, we're father and sonand both on staff at Allison
Park church. I'm the LeadPastor, Dave as the North Side
campus pastor, and we're gladyou're with us today absolutely

Dave Leake (00:48):
quickly. Thank you for joining us. We were talking
today about how you know maybeyou're maybe you're a longtime
listener, but did you know thatyou could actually be a viewer
as well if you obviously were onYouTube, if you want to search
Allison Park leadership podcast,but also Spotify has a video
option now where, if you clickon the podcast, you can actually

(01:08):
watch the whole episode rightthere on your phone. So we'd
love to invite you to to jointhat part of the conversation.
Yeah, and,

Jeff Leake (01:14):
and, you know, we were talking about how we
actually admitted to each otherjust before the podcast, how
when we listened to a podcast, Ialmost always forward the first
four minutes of the podcast,because I know there's
advertisements that happenthere, or people just sort of
talk about starting the podcast,but what we thought we do
different today is to sayanother way to engage with us

(01:35):
besides the likes and thereviews, is to just leave us a
comment. We love hearing fromyou that way too comment on the
topic, or even just somethingthat you want to say to us about
future episodes, or whateverwe'd love to hear from you on
any of those platforms. So

Dave Leake (01:49):
if you didn't skip and you would like to comment,
thank you for sticking with usso far. Five years ago in
November, was it five years?
Yeah, five years ago, Novemberwas when we started, when we
started, Isn't that wild? Yeah,it's also wild to be the thing
that we started right beforeCOVID hit.

Jeff Leake (02:07):
So this is, like the five year anniversary episode,
almost,

Dave Leake (02:10):
not quite. I think November 19 was our first one we
ever released. So, but we'recoming up on it anyway. Well, I
think maybe our very firstepisode, or was one of our first
three, because we recorded themall at the same time. Was uh,
titled, What is success? Do youremember that one?

Jeff Leake (02:25):
I remember it vaguely, okay, since it's five
years ago, but yeah, I think, I

Dave Leake (02:29):
think I was the one that was more compelled by it.
So yes, because I was like, Thisis awesome. Um, we wanted to do
some kind of a follow up. It's alittle different. But today, I
think we're going to discussthis question of, What is God's
role in my success, right? Ordid you have a different way to
phrase that question?

Jeff Leake (02:48):
No, I think that's a good way. I do remember now that
you mentioned it, Dave, we were,because you were, I think,
moving into a new role withAllison Park. You had finished
up your youth pastor role, andyou were getting ready to take
Northside, and you were goingthrough some soul searching
about, how do I know I'm doingwell in ministry? And we and we

(03:08):
then asked the question, becauseI think a lot of people feel
this about life, and I think alot of people who are pastors
and leaders in churches feelthis way. Is, how do I know?
Because, because the comparativestandard isn't a good measure.
So we wrestled with someinternal identity questions, I
think, on that particular issue,what? What makes me successful?

(03:28):
What makes me pleasing to God,but? But this particular
question that we're going todeal with today is slightly off
of that. It's different fromthat, right?

Dave Leake (03:37):
Yeah. So I think this question for me, started
thinking about the church world.
And I know you were mentioningto me that you think it's a lot
broader than that, but I'll justlet me just start with the
context of my sort of world thatI'm in. You know, it's I found
it weird whenever I was jumpinginto ministry, how there are

(03:57):
formulas and Strategies forGrowing a church that seem to
work, not necessarilyuniversally, but in America, at
least if you're in a similarpart of similar socioeconomic
status, like if you're in thesuburbs, if you're by a college,
or if you're in this part of ahighway. Do these kind of

(04:17):
things? Send out these kind ofmailers have these kind of
service services with these kindof sermon series and questions
and social media this way, andgenerally it works, right? And
in terms of, like, gettingnumbers there, and like, to me,
I was like, Oh, that, like, atfirst, I was like, that's weird.
I was like, Oh, that's cool.
Like, through leadership, we cangrow something. And I think my

(04:40):
question that I've been sort ofthinking through recently is so,
so, what part does God have inin the growth of something like
when it comes to growing achurch, if you follow a formula
and you work really hard and youdo what seems to work with
mailers and these zip codes and,you know, and these kind of
family oriented events andCaptain. Amazing sermon series.

(05:01):
Like, is that is the growth inthose, in those phases? Is that
from just good leadership, or isthere a degree of God's
releasing something, or is itlike, Well, God's releasing
something, but it really, but wealmost act like it's us. Or
then, what about situations thatare not those like, so I'm in a
very urban demographic, and I'verealized that the strategies,

(05:24):
the growth strategies, that workin suburban places, particularly
this in the south too, they haveit really like when mailers
don't work that well, what doyou do when people don't do
social media, when even likedoor to door, flyering is
different, like, so certainstrategies aren't the same. They
don't translate the same way.
But I think, like beyond, I'mnot just talking about north

(05:46):
side, just with churches ingeneral. Say somebody's really
working hard to try to growtheir church, to reach the lost,
the disciple people. It's notgoing as quickly as they hoped.
It's not going as well as thehoped. Is it just the strategy
is bad? Or is it God is holdingsomething back right now because
it's all about the Kairosspecific timing of God, and
we're waiting for the next waveto hit, or like, basically, what

(06:07):
role does God have to play insomething growing or being
healthy, and what role is ITleadership or our responsibility
or our job? Does that makesense? Sure, and I think it
goes, I do think goes beyondchurches. I think the question
of as a leader, like, what isGod's role in my success

Jeff Leake (06:28):
as a business leader, as a parent, yeah, as
whatever, like, is it justtechnique based? Is there, is
there some spiritual formula tothis?

Dave Leake (06:38):
Yeah, because it feels like the way that
leadership culture would be,like, who would talk about this,
even in Christian circles, is,is, it's like, you lead really
well, and you do your best, andGod's there in the background,
and God, Well, God made all thispossible. You know what? I mean?
All credit to God, but

Jeff Leake (06:55):
it's like, so, like, I just scored a touchdown. This
is because of God's work in mylife, right? Yeah, we celebrate
those moments in in athleteslives or performers lives,
they'll give all

Dave Leake (07:06):
glory to God for it, but in reality, what they're
really thinking and by the way,we're, of

Jeff Leake (07:11):
course, dealers family for Pittsburgh, I happen
to see Justin fields, who'scurrently our quarterback,
whether he is next week or not,we don't know. But he walked
into the stadium and he said,just here to bring glory to God,
that was his T shirt, right? Andso I think the intentionality
about that, whatever I'm goingto do, I want to do for the
honor and glory of God, I thinkthat's beautiful, yeah, of

(07:31):
course, right. But it does seemlike then when we do well, we
think, Well, God must have, youknow, brought this about in my
life, and we do poorly, then thequestion is, well, maybe, maybe
I did something wrong. Or, No, Imight be missing something in my
life. I

Dave Leake (07:47):
think I don't. I think we generally give credit
to God the way that Godgenerally gets credit for all
good things. Yeah, but it'sreally I did this. You know what
I'm saying? Like, that's,that's, that's too far, maybe a
little bit I did this, but Iwant to give glory to God for it
kind of a thing. Yeah? And Godenabled me, because he showed me
that this strategy would work,but I was the one that had to

(08:10):
bust my butt. Yeah, you knowwhat I'm saying, right? So it's
like, what? What role does Godhave in growth and in success?
Okay,

Jeff Leake (08:16):
so let's go back just to the whole church world
thing for a minute. So we'll getto this generally. And if you're
not a church leader, maybe thiswill be interesting to you from
a curiosity point of view, butor maybe you've thought had
questions about why the churchesare organized like this. So in
my lifetime, Dave the churchworld shifted from the community

(08:37):
based, small church pastor whowas primarily involved with
pastoral care, preparingsermons. And most churches were
about 200 or under, and itshifted to a sort of a church
growth model. The whole churchgrowth world was developed
church growth conferences andseminars. I remember my my
father, when he restarted thechurch of Monrovia that he that

(09:01):
he led. By the end of the 1970sthere were now this trend of
some of the very first churchesbeing eight, 900 people. And my
father pastored a church thatgrew to 898, or 900 people with
multiple services in the samebuilding. And it was sort of
like, Wow, look how big thischurch is, it's, it's, it's

(09:21):
amazing, but there were reallyvery few churches bigger than
1000 and now they're churchesthat are 100,000 Right? Like
Life Church with Pastor CraigGroeschel or Steven Furtick, and
Elevation Church, where you havethese mega, mega churches, and
around the world you have somechurches that are hundreds of
1000s. Okay, so there becamethis church growth technique

(09:43):
world where some of the thingswe would learn from the business
world or from leadership skills,we applied like some of the
things that we do now to openchurches when we plant a new
church are very similar to whenyou open a new furniture store,
right? So. So our Grand OpeningDay is on this particular day,
and we're going to have thesesales going on, and you send out

(10:05):
postcards and mailers, and youdo a marketing campaign, and you
center everything around gettingpeople there on that one day.
Because if you can get buzzcreated around the launching of
your new furniture store, andpeople have a very good
experience, then you end upbecoming a, you know, a part of
that community, an identifiablepart of that community. Same
kind of thing is true withplanting a church. I've done

(10:26):
this over and over and coachedpastors to do this, where you
practice your services, youdon't invite people into the
moments where you're not readyand prepared to receive guests.
And then once you get everythingdown and you're pretty
competent, confident in whatyou're going to be able to
provide, then you have the grandopening Sunday, and you bring as
many people to that as youpossibly can, and people enter

(10:46):
that as if that church has beenin existence for a decade,
because you have excellence onevery level. And people think, I
could bring my family here, andthey they come back. And all of
this is based upon sometechniques that work in suburban
America to draw a crowd. Andthen, if you continue that same

(11:07):
discipline of large attractionalevents and effective
communication and a processstrategically that moves people
from one step to the next,you're going to pastor a growing
congregation, and all of that iswise. I don't think we would be
against any of that. But nowyour question is, can we do that

(11:29):
without God? Yeah, yeah, no,totally. Like, what role does
God play in that? Because

Dave Leake (11:34):
somebody can run a great furniture store without
God, sure, right? You know,like, it might not be God
honoring, but it could be, youknow, monetarily, doing really
well, and you could have even agood staff culture, and

Jeff Leake (11:45):
if you have enough money to hire the right
musicians to be on stage and aspart of your worship team, and
you have a pastor who's in agifted communicator, and you got
the ability to organize greatchildren's programs with a good
brand and a great Instagramsocial media profile, you are

(12:06):
good to go. You're

Dave Leake (12:07):
primed to blow up, especially if you're in an area
that is a growing part of thecity. People are moving in a lot
and

Jeff Leake (12:13):
oh yeah, right, well, that's part of this.
That's part of the strategy ofplanting churches, is you go to
a high growth area with a lot ofnew families that are being
displaced because they move fromone place to another, and
they're looking for community.
And if you hit that right at theright time, you can blow up
pretty fast. Yeah. So, so

Dave Leake (12:33):
this leads to my question, which? Which?

Jeff Leake (12:34):
None of that is wrong or bad. It's all good
thinking sure to do anythingother than that would almost be
negligence, yeah, right. It'd belike, Why would I not do any of
that stuff? Sure, especiallybecause now I can be taught,
step by step in a manual how tomake all that work so that I can
be as effective as possible inreaching the maximum number of

(12:57):
people. I agree that could bereached. Yeah,

Dave Leake (13:00):
to be clear, like now that we know we there's like
a some science to gatheringpeople, building a crowd, and
how it works in, you know,suburban America. I think, of
course, we should use that. Ithink we should do everything
for the maximum effectiveness,but spreading the gospel and
making disciples. My question isbeyond that, though, it's okay.

(13:25):
So if there are techniques toplant a church, there are also
techniques to grow a church, andyou can, I think you could
technically, and there probablyare places like this. I have
none in mind that I'm not evencriticizing, but because you
have a very good leader, a CEOtype leader who's very good at
managing teams and processes andsystems, and they're a gifted

(13:45):
communicator. You can almostlead your church to growth,
whether or not it is even likeyou could. You could lead your
church to growth even if itwasn't a God honoring place. I'm
not saying that that is thecase. Well,

Jeff Leake (13:59):
are isn't that what we talk about all the time with
celebrity pastors who builtlarge organizations, who have
some kind of fall in their life,or you find out that behind the
scenes, maybe they were livingsomething like a double life
experience. And we say, Howcould that happen? They built
this mega success. But then yousee beneath the surface that it

(14:26):
wasn't built on a healthyfoundation. And what you're
saying is it's actually, it isactually possible. So the model
of pastor in America in 2024 isthe CEO model? Yeah, the gifted,
the gifted communicator, CEOmotivational speaker slash CEO
model of church, right, right?
Yeah, so, so we went from the1960s which was the chaplaincy
model, which is basically, I'mhere to be your pastor. I'm

(14:50):
going to be here to care foryour soul. I'm going to create
community for us to enjoy. Andwe went from Chaplain pastor to
CEO pastor. Master, CEOmotivational speaker, Pastor,
yeah, like

Dave Leake (15:02):
Steve Jobs. Maybe that's the wrong one, but yeah,
you know the young like cooldress as

Jeff Leake (15:08):
well. Innovative, yeah, innovative looks good on
social media Exactly, exactly.
Now that that is a suburban Iwould still wouldn't say it. It
probably plays anywhere, to somedegree less in urban spaces than
in then in maybe suburban orrural communities. But yeah, in
fact, it's hard to really benoticed as a successful pastor

(15:31):
if you don't fit into thatcategory. Sure.

Dave Leake (15:38):
So So then. So this is the question, and I just want
to be totally clear, I thinkthat many people do that and
honor God like crazy, and Ithink that they grow the
churches with that model, andthey're brilliant, and they're a
phenomenal communicator, and Godcalled them to do this, and God
gifted them to do this, andthey're reaching the lost and
making disciples. And I have noproblem with that. This is not a

(16:00):
critique of the model. Like,don't be like that. Like, let's
go back towards chaplaincy thatthat's not, that's not the goal
of this. The goal is, is, is itjust formulaic, or does God have
a role in the growth? How do weknow if God has a role in the
growth? Like, if he is soobviously, you could do it
without him, and you could havea church that is built on a bad

(16:22):
foundation that's due forcollapse at any point, but
assuming that it was like, yeah,how, how do we, like, Where?
Where does, where is the creditgiven to God? And not just like
he's in the background, but it'smostly our hard work. Like, pray
like it all depends on God. Worklike it all depends on you, and
mostly it depends on you, butGod's in the background,
blessing you with the gifts andtalents you had. Like, where is

(16:45):
it that? Where is it? How do weinvite God to be a part of the
process so that it's not just weare leading and he's happy with
us? Where is it we're followingand leading people in following?
Like, how do we Does that makesense that I'm asking?

Jeff Leake (16:59):
I think it does. So maybe, maybe we take a little
turn on this, because we wouldsay, so I'll make personal
observations. So I think I leadlike a CEO motivational speaker
leader, don't I

Dave Leake (17:14):
probably well to So you agree a little more hands
off than a typical CEO leaderwould probably be okay. Hands
off. How you Yeah. So I feellike before the 100 church
vision, you were probablyengaged in the day to day, like
running and growth, and thenlargely, you kind of passed a

(17:35):
lot off to executive leaders.
Now you're like a, I guessyou're more of like a executive
coach, communicator, you knowwhat I mean, hands on, a lot of
other places and kingdominitiatives and and, yeah, you
still do CEO things too. Butanyway,

Jeff Leake (17:50):
so not the hard driving CEO. No, right, right.
Okay, yeah, it's interestingthat you thought that I didn't
know something. Okay, so Iprobably was birthed in an era
the 80s, 90s and and you know,what do you call the early 2000s
where I was striving to learnfrom CEO, Pastor, leaders and

(18:11):
motivational speakers. Iremember hearing Bill Hybels
from Willow Creek talk about oneof the gifts in Romans chapter
12 is leadership. And he says,if you're a leader, lead with
diligence. And he was saying,this is, he was sort of like the
model CEO of Willow Creek. Hekind of thought of himself that
way, and built this empire ofinfluence through, through what

(18:34):
he was doing at Willow Creek.
And he was basically saying, youknow, squeeze every drop of your
leadership skill out of yourselfso that you can build the
maximum effective organization,so that you can reach the
maximum amount of people. Okay,so I was groomed in that I think
I was striving to be that inmany ways. And so I've been sort
of raised in that culture. Then2020, came, and I started to

(18:57):
look at everything I was leadingand everything I was doing and
thinking, I'm not sure that sizeand organizational effectiveness
is enough. I think we canactually create disciples that
are too shallow. They don't knowwhat they believe. They're not

(19:18):
making disciples of otherpeople. They're a part of an
amazing, slick organizationalsystem, and it looks so good on
the outside, but when you startto really look and see what's
going on in people's hearts andminds, or maybe when you look on
social media and you see whatpeople are posting and how
they're reacting. I think, man,maybe there's something missing

(19:43):
from this corporate model ofchurch that needs to be
recaptured. Because could we besucceeding in creating an
excellent corporate corporationthat is called the. Church that
has all of the growth systemsand the strategies and the
structures, and it feels so goodto the consumer coming in,

(20:06):
receiving ministry. But could webe creating a hollow version of
what a Christian is supposed tobe, because we're missing other
components that need to be andsome things I think that we have
done since the pandemic would becounter to building the

(20:26):
corporate model, for sure, likepreaching the hard truths of
Jesus, like like Jesus, one ofJesus success moments was the
moment whenever he laid it downin John chapter six, and said,
unless you eat my flesh anddrink my blood, you can have no
part of me. And whole bunch ofpeople left. And that that was
success, because he was tryingto define what it really means

(20:51):
to follow Jesus. Or when Johnthe Baptist had his disciples
and all of his following leavehim and go follow Jesus, which
made his crowd size muchsmaller, but his long term
success as a person was muchgreater because he he did his
job. He pointed people to Jesus,and the crowd started to follow

(21:14):
the right person. So I thinksome of the things we've done
since 2020, have there's,there's a benefit to the
corporate model, but it has itslimits when it comes to whether
or not we're being successful inthe eyes of God, like you can
build a growing church and notcare about the poor, you can
build a growing church and notand be building your own kingdom

(21:35):
and not realizing that it'sactually happening. So some of
its motivation, and some of itis, I guess, defining what the
target is, what we're after. Sodoes that resolve anything
inside of you? I

Dave Leake (21:54):
think it's a part of it. I think there's, I think
there's more questions. So,yeah, I guess, okay, like you
answered the part that some ofit is stuff that you can't
really see, because it's heartstuff, and that that maybe
starts with the leader, and wecan't see into the hearts of men
the way that Jesus could. Sosome of it is, is you got to

(22:14):
answer to God for this, right?
But let's, I'm just talkingabout in the case of where this
goes well, and you're not justnumerically, let's say it's
going well and people are beingdiscipled well, like, because
you are saying the hard things.
And it's not just your only goalisn't build the biggest Empire

(22:34):
possible. Your goal is grow,reach the lost, make disciples.
And it's like, Where is God?
Because I'm saying, even if theresults good, where is God in
that process? Like, I to me, itfeels like I don't feel like
it's that honoring to God to belike, oh, like he did the whole
thing. But then, like, secretly,it's like, but it was like, I
could write a book on all thethings that worked. Do you know

(22:55):
what I'm saying? I guess, Iguess that that's still true.
There is a component ofleadership, like Nehemiah, you
know, and going back to torebuild Jerusalem in the temple,
like, there's a there's a way todo it, there's a methodology to
actually succeed. And I'm surethey use their skills. I'm not
saying don't use skills, butlike, how is God different than

(23:17):
chance. How is, do you know whatI'm saying? Like, like, like,
what I think I'm wrestlingthrough? Should there be some
part of an invitation of Godinto the process? Is it just we
follow the biblical principles,and because of that, because
we're following, like,generally, what God's asked to
do with the church? Like, it'sworking. Because, do you

(23:39):
understand what I mean? BecauseI think it's like, here's how it
feels. The difference between agrowing, hollow church and a
growing, significant disciplingchurch is not just systems and
processes. Like I visit. I thinkthat there's some more substance
there. I think I think the kindof church that I want to be a
part of, is not just doing thegeneral will of God. Well,

(24:03):
they're obviously doing that,but I think that they're taking
part of specific, okay,strategic things. Now,

Jeff Leake (24:10):
now we've hit something that is, I think, with
the key to what you're saying.
So what we said, I think, in thelast episode we did, November 29
2019 is we basically said,Success in God's economy is
always based on obedience. Andso if you're doing a model, and
the model is working, but it'snot what God's asked you to do,

(24:31):
technically, might be successfulin the eyes of people, but it
may not necessarily besuccessful in the eyes of God,
because success in the eyes ofGod is obedience. I think when
you make steps of obedience,it's there that God gets
involved. If it's not obedienceand God's God may or may not be
involved. I think sometimes Godblesses stuff that is just our

(24:54):
own endeavors, because we'repreaching the gospel. And people
are getting saved, like evenPaul says in Philippians chapter
one, he's talking about thesepeople who are competing with
him and trying to undercut hisministry. And he is like, I'm
still happy that the gospel isbeing preached, even though I
believe that they're doing thisfrom wrong motives. But hey,
listen, whatever for me to livein is Christ and to die is gain.

(25:15):
So I think the question is, is amatter of obedience. So the
corporate CEO model is not theonly way that God does things.
If God is leading you to do thecorporate CEO to learn from the
other people and to go to a fastgrowing city and to implement
some of the strategies that arepart of the corporate CEO model
of church, and that for you isobedience, because, you know,

(25:40):
God's asked you to do that, andI think God's in it. But there
are a lot of other ways, like, Idon't want to focus too much on
my story. You mentioned the 100church vision before, there was
a significant seminal moment inmy life, in 1996 where the
church was growing. Based uponthis, I was becoming more
effective as a leader. I wasbecoming more effective as a as

(26:01):
a communicator. The North Hillsof Pittsburgh was was growing.
People were moving in here.
Allison parks. Numbers wereincreasing. We were going to
move down the road some buy someproperty, build a bigger
building, so that we could be abigger church. And the Holy
Spirit said, That is not myagenda for you. My agenda for
you, first of all is to plantchurches in your in the

(26:25):
economically challengedcommunities all up and down the
rivers of the city ofPittsburgh. And secondarily, I'm
going to grow you. Your churchis going to grow. But if you
seek first my kingdom byplanting churches, all these
things are going to be added toyou as well. At that point, I
had to make a strategicobedience decision to go counter
to the growth of my church toaccomplish the purpose of God's

(26:50):
specific will. Because you saidGeneral will, specific will
God's Gen Scott specific willfor Allison Park church was to
plant other churches. Now hisoverall will was that we would
grow too, because we've nowtripled in size since that
moment. So it's not like God wasagainst us becoming bigger or
even more excellent in the waywe do what we do. It's just that

(27:10):
the pathway forward was a veryspecific assigned direction. You
experienced this Dave in thenorth side, so you hit a wall
with how we were doing church atthe north side, with our Sunday
morning experiences. And youmade a strategic you led us
strategically into saying, Let'sworry less about how it looks in

(27:35):
comparison to the othercampuses, and let's focus upon
the mission that God has for usto really build a relationship
with the community we're in thenorth side of Pittsburgh, and
specifically Northview heights,which is one of the housing
development plans there. Yeah,right. And we're gonna worry
less about whether this fitsinto the corporate model, and

(27:55):
we're just gonna serve ourcommunity. And you did that and
it grew. So wouldn't we say, Ithink that was you obeying the
specific will of God for yoursituation, and God breathed on
it and blessed it, and we'veseen an increase in the numbers
of people getting baptized andsaved. And so I think that's

(28:17):
isn't that? What it is, yeah,isn't making sure that whatever
you're doing, you're doing anobedience to God, and not just
because other people do it.
Yeah,

Dave Leake (28:24):
that's probably true well, and I guess, I guess this
is just this kind of this isprobably taking the application
of our how to get a word fromGod episode we did, and maybe
working through some of thispractically, because I think we
talked in that episode aboutassignments from God, how you
can get a specific assignmentfor your life or for your
church? Yeah, you know, thehouse that you're part of, I

Jeff Leake (28:45):
think too we tend to, because this, the last
episode we did was abortion andthe American dream. And we were
talking about, you know, maybethe American dream is not a good
target. And I think if we weregoing to apply this to the
larger world around us, not justthe church world, we would say
sometimes success in Americanculture has become an idol,

(29:07):
yeah, for sure, it has.
Sometimes success in theministry world has become an
idol, right? And that is outwardorganizational, growth oriented
success.

Dave Leake (29:21):
Yep,

Jeff Leake (29:22):
it is, it is. It is a good thing to grow. It is a
good thing to reach new people.
It's a good thing to do thingswith excellence, but it isn't
the main thing. Yeah, the mainthing we do is obey and please
God.

Dave Leake (29:36):
You know it's a good thing to grow, but it's not a
good thing to grow at any cost.

Jeff Leake (29:40):
No, right? That's what we said, the American
dream. There's a limit on it.
It's not the American dream atany cost. It's not success in
ministry at any cost, not at thecost of my integrity, not at the
cost of my humility, not at thecost of my obedience, not at the
cost of limiting the presence ofthe Holy Spirit when he's.
Wanting to move in a situation,but it doesn't fit into my box,

(30:01):
not at the cost of me beingwilling to lose in order to gain
temporarily. Because I'm goingto focus on something that might
cause my organization to slowdown, but I'm going to reach a
demographic of people that maybedon't add much benefit back at
the moment, sure, but Okay, so Idon't know if I this is sort of

(30:27):
a delicate thing to talk aboutin the proper way, but so one of
the things that we did in 2020is we adopted, or helped sponsor
the launch of a East Africancongregation, revival Church
International, that has requiredmy relationship with Bishop and
and helping to get that wholething started, because it's a

(30:50):
learning curve for me, and it'sa different culture, and a lot
of times it's messy. When youhave people that are moving in
and they're they're learning usand we're learning them. It's
taken hours and hours and hoursof my time to build a
relationship with them, and theywith me. And really, it adds
nothing to our organizationalbottom line to to have this
relationship. It's not like wewould say this causes us now to

(31:12):
say, well, look at how many wehave. But it's been so worth it.
I have grown so much, and I'vegained so much from these
relationships, and we did thisin obedience to God, not because
it fit the corporate model. Andsome of the ways that you
receive God's greatest attaboy,Well done, my good and faithful

(31:35):
servant, pleasure and favor iswhen we do things that don't
seem like success at all, and inthe eyes of anyone other than
God and and yet bring himpleasure. There's this great
book written by a Catholicpriest, and it's called in the
name of Jesus, and I'm searchingfor the name of this guy now

(31:58):
maybe I'll remember it beforethe end of the episode, or where
you're talking next. I'll lookit up. He was a successful
lecturer and professor. He'dwritten many books, and he felt
convicted that his soul was outof whack, almost like John Mark
comer's experience when he wroteruthless elimination of hurry,

(32:19):
and he actually left his job asa professor at a prominent
university and went to work in acare home for those who were
mentally and physicallychallenged. So is he? He went
from corporate to chaplain, butChaplain amongst the most broken
people you have society. And hewrites his experience of

(32:44):
functioning in the name ofJesus, and what seemed to be a
counter culture move, FrancisChan, he's another guy. He built
this huge church in California,and then all of the sudden,
decided to leave it in order togo, I think he's back and forth
as kind of a missionary to,yeah, I think he spent a lot of

(33:05):
time various parts of Asia,yeah, right. And so he left the
corporate model because he feltlike it was constraining him
from REALLY following Jesus inthe kind of self sacrificial
missional way of life that hefelt needed to be lived. It is
true that the corporate CEOmotivational speaker model comes

(33:28):
with enormous amounts of stressthat tend to squeeze the life of
your soul, that can make youinto the type of person that is
untouchable and arrogant, ifyou're not careful, um, and May.
Here's another standard, Iguess, of what success would be
if we said the first isobedience, the second would be

(33:48):
character. So is it producing inme and in the people around me?
Christ like character? Am Igrowing to become more like
Jesus? Am I being obedient toHis purpose. These are two
things that I think we have tohold on to. So let

Dave Leake (34:04):
me pause for a second. I think, you know, it
just to be clear too, I don'thave, there's like, there's no
churches that I even thinkingof, or could think of right now
that I'm like, Oh, these are thekind of places that are doing it
the wrong way. It's it's morefrom my own internal wrestling
that I'm coming with this,because it's like, okay, some
things work, some things don't.
Where, every time we come to thebeginning of a new school year,

(34:27):
like August, September, we'rerethinking what we're doing, and
we're looking at, how do we makeit how do we make this a place
that people can, you know, bringtheir unsaved friends and family
to? And how do we reach thelost? And there's a lot of
strategy, and it feels likeit's, it's this time of like,
it's prayer, it's, it's prayerand seeking God, but it's also

(34:48):
planning. And so I think I'mwrestling this from the from the
from the perspective of like, asI'm building and growing things
and looking to you. Uh, Steward,what God's given me, you know,
am I? Am I doing this the rightway? I think that's where this
motivation is coming from. ButI'll say, I think when you keep
talking about obedience as beingone of the character and

(35:09):
obedience with obedience to Me,what feels like, oh, this. This
is the, this is the nuance thatgives me the check or no check
is, am I asking God, what do youwant this year or this month?
Because it's like, well, I wouldbe, I would be being obedient to
God as long as I'm, like, tryingto reach the lost, to make

(35:31):
disciples. Like, generally,yeah, we're following the Great
Commission.

Jeff Leake (35:35):
But this is what you said. There's the general will
and there's a specific will,yeah, yeah. So we're generally
being obedient, but you'retalking about to be really
successful, you have to be isbeing specifically obedient. I

Dave Leake (35:45):
think, if I think, if, for me, I think, if I am not
taking it to the place of God,what? What specifically are you
asking that what I'm at risk ofis measurement and comparison
and being generally obedient,obedient while the specifics are
affecting my motivations. Doesthat make sense? What I mean?

(36:05):
Yeah, cuz you could begenerally, I could be generally,
probably I have, at times, beengenerally following the will of
God, but I've been undertremendous stress because I'm
trying to prove something tomyself, or to, you know, well,
the

Jeff Leake (36:21):
people that we celebrate in the Christian world
in the United States are alwaysthe best motivational speakers
and the best CEO leaders,

Dave Leake (36:31):
biggest church, fastest growing area, yeah,

Jeff Leake (36:35):
the better looking you are in the young and hip,
the more you look young and Hiponline. It's I mean, so this is
not an era where we look to thespiritual fathers and we say,
you know, this is someone who'sa sage and wise and self
sacrificing and lived amongstthe poor and like, that's not,
that's not the hero of ourculture. Maybe it should be.

(36:58):
Maybe we shouldn't be alwayslooking to the CEO leader, but
that is, that's the guys whospeak at the events, right? And
that's the people that get heldup as the success models. And
that's how, when we get in,internally driven, we start to
think, How do I become that?
That's

Dave Leake (37:14):
who gets the awards, too.

Jeff Leake (37:15):
It's who gets the awards, right? It's

Dave Leake (37:17):
like this, Hey, we're not just about stats, but
all your awards are for the besttest right here,

Jeff Leake (37:24):
when we stand before God one day, we'll find out
whether we were successful ornot. Yeah, right. And some of
the people that we think aresuccessful now may not
necessarily be the most rewardedin heaven. Some of the people
that most rewarded in heaven, wemight have no idea who their
names are, yeah. And so that's Iguess another thing is have the
right heroes. Because when wehave we have the heroes that are

(37:47):
based solely on the corporatesuccess model, and those heroes
fall, we have a tendency to haveour world like, what happened?
It like, sort of messes with ourequilibrium. And some of it has
to do with the fact that we maybe celebrating. There's a part
of that that should becelebrated, and some, in some
sense, those who are leading inthat way should be held up as

(38:08):
models. But if they're the onlymodels we see, and then we have
a tendency to think so theperson who's doing successful
Urban Ministry, and it doesn'tlook like the corporate where
are those people that we look atand we celebrate, the people who
are doing successful ruralministry and and could never
have a church of 10,000 becausethere's not even 10,000 people

(38:31):
there in their county. How dowhat are the models we look at
there? Right? So there has to bea way of viewing things through
the lens of heaven so that wearen't super imposing an
American 2024, version of life.
That is not the way God looks atthings. I

Dave Leake (38:50):
think this is a little bit of my Allison Park
church bias, but part of how Iwould want to measure that, I
think you actually can measure,but they don't. They tend to
maybe get ignored a little bitas, like, you know, who is
sending out the most people?
Like, you know, we talk aboutwith coaches and sports like
their coaching tree, where BellBelichick had these many people
that want to become successfulhead coaches. Like, how many

(39:13):
people are we sending outmultiplying people that are
reaching the most hurting orpoor or margin? Yeah, that's

Jeff Leake (39:21):
another one I was going to say. Is when you're at
how does God get involved in ourministry? Here's how one way
that I that I pray, that I thinkis very much in line with how
God thinks I pray like this.
Give me the One God. Give me thegive me the guy who's coming out
of prison and has no place elseto belong. Give me the foster
child, young person that'scoming that needs a family to

(39:43):
belong, to give me the addictthat needs a church family to
love them and help them breakfree. Give me the single mom
that feels like she's all overthe world. Give me the widow
that has nothing to offer but isso longing for a pastor that
will look at. Eyes and let herknow that she's valued and
loved. You know, give give methe person that is that has got

(40:04):
that personality disorder. Theydon't belong to anybody else
because they never fit inanywhere. Bring them to my
church so that they feel likethat they have a place to belong
like I want to be the churchthat welcomes the one, the one
that's overlooked, the onesforgotten, the one that's a
misfit, the one that doesn'tfeel like they connect anywhere.

(40:24):
And God, if you give me thosepeople, I'll, I'll feel like I'm
wealthy, sure. And I think thatthat, if your heart is that,
because some churches are builtlike a country club, and they
just, they want the people thatthat bring with them wealth and
connection. Well,

Dave Leake (40:42):
I think, I think the which, by the way, the stage
like example of that youngperson, that young CEO,
motivational speaker, leader, isoften like, I'm reaching the
movie stars. I'm reaching thenew CEOs that need a pastor.
It's like,

Jeff Leake (40:59):
No, I'm taking my picture with

Dave Leake (41:04):
just five away, Justin, just doing awesome. So
don't be knocking Justin. He'sputting out like worship stuff
now.

Jeff Leake (41:12):
So, but listen, listen, so sometimes the
celebrity, though, is the mostlonely person in the world. It's
probably sometimes the CEO. I'vemet CEOs, and they don't have
anybody that they can really bevulnerable with and friends
with, because everybody putsthem into this category of a
person that no one can getaround. So I actually want the
CEO too, but I don't want thembecause they're going to bring
some kind of money to me. I wantthem because I know God cares

(41:35):
about them too, and in theirspace, there's a unique point of
need there. And so if you'rethere praying for people to come
into your environment for whatthey can add to you, that's the
wrong motivation. But if you'rethere praying for them to come
so that you can add something tothem, then that's the right
motivation. And so I don't thinkthere's anything wrong with
having a church full of businessowners who are shaking the

(41:57):
world, but that person is notless important or more important
than the guy who's homeless andis on the street and when he
comes in to the service, heneeds a special welcome, because
people might not necessarilyfeel like they know what to do
with that person. So I thinksome of it is our wiring and

(42:20):
motivation. Some of it is ourheart, and we have to really
work hard to think like, oh,here's, here's a question for
you. I'll ask this of you, Dave,if Jesus was alive today
physically, what kind of churchwould he lead?

Dave Leake (42:33):
That's, I don't know. I mean, I can think of
some traits and characteristicsgenerically,

Jeff Leake (42:38):
generically. Give me some. Sure he was a great
communicator. Yeah, yeah, ofcourse. And I don't think he
would be opposed toorganization. I mean, when he
had the crowd feeding the 5000he set them in a row of 50 so
that the food could bedistributed in a way that was
pretty quick and orderly. Sothere was, and he had a crowd of

(42:59):
over 20,000 they estimate 5000men and women and children. So a
lot of times, Jesus was in amega church size ministry,
moments in ancient culture,which where that would have been
unheard of in his day.

Dave Leake (43:13):
Yeah, I think he probably would have just, he
would have, you know, obviously,been very loving and straight to
the heart of those that feellike they're outcasts. And I
think he would have had noqualms about stepping on any any
toes, opening cans of worms, youknow, like pointing out the

(43:34):
elephant in the room. I think hewould have done that. He
probably would have beenprovocative. He would

Jeff Leake (43:38):
have been a little weaker, meaning that once
everything got set in your had acertain expectations the way
things were, he would mess withthat just specifically to make
you I think he would think, orjust Yeah, I think he would
have, and I think he was doingthat all the time in his own
culture.

Dave Leake (43:52):
I think I he would have been the most, like, you
know, the like, the wordtriggering. He would have been
the most triggering person,yeah, like

Jeff Leake (43:59):
a Donald Trump triggering kind of thing, but
more of just a prophetic kind oftriggering,

Dave Leake (44:04):
yeah, yeah, not, not abrasive, but he sometimes was
almost a little abrasive toembarrasses. You're right,
you're right. He was so I thinkhe, and I think he would

Jeff Leake (44:16):
never demeaning, no, yeah, never demeaning. But, but
yes, he was very direct andconfrontational,
confrontational. Yeah, yeah. SoI don't he would have been
totally okay if his crowdsdropped. Yeah,

Dave Leake (44:27):
losing the whole crowd, which is crazy to think
about that. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (44:32):
You know, for the sake of the message and the
integrity of the movement, hewas willing for everyone to
leave.

Dave Leake (44:38):
I think something had only 12 left. On that note.
I think something about, like,modern America churches. And I
feel like this is just a there'sprobably a piece of this That's
wisdom, but I feel like it'susually only talked about as
wisdom is like, well, if I saythis is going to create such a
mess, or if we say it in thisway, or if we're not super
careful, you know what I meanabout this? Like, what? What

(44:58):
will happen if I if, or if the.
Wrong clip gets out there, or ifthe wrong person takes this but
the wrong way is true, that

Jeff Leake (45:04):
saying things out of integrity and anointing for the
right reasons that causes you amess is a good thing. Deeming
unwise and foolish true is a badthing. And there's a fine line
between those two. Yeah, I'm

Dave Leake (45:17):
not saying Say whatever you want to, obviously.
Well, some

Jeff Leake (45:21):
people attract a crowd because they are that.
It's true. They like purposelysay things that instigate, but
they tend to attract a crowd ofpeople who have the same
prejudices as them, and theythey roll in because they they
love it when someone callsothers out, right, right? And
that's that's also some weirdkind of success model that isn't
necessarily at all a success. I

Dave Leake (45:43):
just, I just heard a pastor saying, you know that the
best way it sounded like he wasquoting you. I've heard you say
this almost directly, but he wasjust saying, if you want to
grow, grow a platform, you justneed to be extremely critical of
the right people on any if youcommunicate it well. And you
come after celebrities or wellknown pastors or leaders

(46:04):
ideology

Jeff Leake (46:05):
or a party, yeah, or a politician. Or you say you can
make a lot of money talk on afear, or you talk out of
alarmism, or you promote aconspiracy theory. The Yeah. I
mean, his

Dave Leake (46:17):
quote was really, he was like, you're not adding any
service, but you can instantlymake a lot of money. Oh, yeah,
you did follow, got a hugeamount of followers. You can
just from being well, somepeople grow their churches
exactly

Jeff Leake (46:28):
like that, yeah. So we think of that as growing
social media following, butactually, some people grow
churches like that, yeah, youcan grow to church to a certain
size by going after a particularwhatever. That makes people

Dave Leake (46:41):
say, Oh, I love that, yeah. And he's got the
guts to say what needs to besaid, yeah, exactly, which

Jeff Leake (46:47):
probably isn't really success in the eyes of
now,

Dave Leake (46:50):
I'm sure that Jesus would have been thought of like
that in some ways. He did havethe guts equal opportunity
offender.

Jeff Leake (46:58):
He didn't just speak against one crowd. He did it
very strategically.

Dave Leake (47:03):
That feels like a model of that feels like a mark
of obedience. Yeah, you know. So

Jeff Leake (47:09):
I can tell you, Oh, I'm sorry, what? So one of the
things that I would say Daviswere, as we're talking about
this, is, at this stage of mylife, having led now for over 30
years in a local church, I careso much less about the corporate
success model. Okay? I mean, asI get towards the end of of my
ministry time, I at one point Ireally wanted to see us reach a

(47:31):
certain size, or I don't everthink I haven't stated that out
loud, but in my heart, Ithought, want to be great when
we finally hit this next level.
It's become really unimportantto me. Now, if all of a sudden
we started dying, you know, wedropped 500 people overnight,
I'd be like, What am I doingwrong? And I'd probably go into

(47:52):
an identity crisis that's like,let's just face it, everybody
has those reactions, yeah,however, I think I would, it
would less affect me now, maybebecause I realized that some of
this doesn't matter as much as Ithought it did. I'd much rather
finish well. I'd much ratherhave a positive reputation. I'd

(48:14):
much rather be approachable. I'dmuch rather be humble. I'd much
rather be be able to say, I knowI'm being obedient to what God's
asked me to do, than have thethe other things. But I'm still
trying to do things withexcellence. I'm still trying to
lead in my context by learningevery good principle from every
successful leader as I possiblycan, and seeing which of these

(48:36):
apply within my context withoutbeing disobedient to what God's
assignment is to me, but thedrive isn't there. Like, I don't
feel driven to it. I thinkthat's another one of these
factors. The success model oftenproduces driven leaders, because
it makes us what would How wouldyou even describe drivenness?

(48:57):
Because once it gets wired intoyou, it's like, so

Dave Leake (49:03):
this was, this was possibly another episode that we
were discussing. So I don't wantto, I don't want to too, too
hard go into it. But I think,yeah, I can just, I can just do
a little teaser for an episodewe're talking about doing.
Gordon McDonald is a ministerthat wrote a book, and I think
the 80s. It was called orderingyour private world. And he had

(49:24):
this. I read this a handful ofyears ago. I'm not even sure
where it came onto it, but youhad already read it when I told
you about it. And he sort of hasthese, this comparison of what
he calls the driven person, thecalled person, and the German
person is the bad guy in thisone, which to me, I was reading,
and I was like, I feel likehe's, you know, I mean, he's
probably that kind of guy that,like, is against, like, hard
work and because driven, I'dalways thought of as a good

(49:46):
thing. Like, you should bedriven, you know, better to be
told, that's what Josh saidearlier, better to be told to
slow down than to have to speedup. Like, goes, goes fast as you
can, as long as it's stayingwithin the healthy, healthy
norms and boundaries. But hetalks about, like. Driven person
is is often driven by a level ofambition or insecurity. They're
They're driven to grow quick.
They're driven to towards publicacclaim. They're driven towards

(50:09):
looking successful, value,valuing appearance over what's
what's really there, over thethe substance of somebody's
life, over their integrity, orwhat's said in private. And that
drivenness, while it can causesomebody to succeed, is sort of
the antithesis or the oppositeof somebody who walks as a
called person. They only do whatis being asked of them by God,

(50:33):
and nothing more than that. Andthey sometimes wait until they
hear that right thing to gointo, and it's, it's a slower
pace that has less guarantee ofmaterial success, but it is far
more obedient over the longterm. So for me, I read that,
and this is something that we'llprobably talk about another time
again, but I read that and itchallenged me like, how much of

(50:55):
I driven? You know? So

Jeff Leake (51:00):
the the episode in the future would be, am I
driven, or am I called? Right,right? Yeah. I think some driven
this happens because we getaddicted to the success we're
experiencing. Sure, like,there's moments when I've come
out and we've just had a baptismservice or a big attendance day,
and I'm on, like, a high,

Dave Leake (51:19):
or you get or you crave that success you don't
have,

Jeff Leake (51:21):
yeah, but there's also just, like, an emotional
high, like this past weekend. Itwasn't the biggest Sunday ever,
but in one the smallest of ourfour weekend services that I
preached, we saw, I think 10people raise their hand to give
their life to Christ. Wow. Andthey, and most of them were
young, were the teenagers oryoung adults, and so they came

(51:44):
back to the back, and I hadmultiple conversations with
people were coming to Jesus forthe very first time. And I left,
and I was, I was I was floating,yeah, I was like, I gotta do
that again. I can't wait tillnext week. Can't wait to preach
again. And sometimes you getwired into the enjoyment of
seeing the fruit that you'reexperiencing. And you can work

(52:06):
just out of the joy of it, andwithout knowing it, you're
beginning to run out of emotionand out of obedience, like
you're you're going off of thewow, this is so great. Look at
this is happening. It's allgood, but, but, but you can be
overcome by just the euphoria ofactivity and lose touch with the

(52:29):
fact that you are never supposedto stop following, never
supposed to stop discerning,never supposed to stop slowing
down to say, God is Is this toomuch like Jesus had these
rhythms of his life where he bewith the crowds and spend
himself and then pull away to bewith the Father, and then he and
so there was you can, if you'renot careful, you can, you can

(52:51):
ride that emotion to the placewhere you burn out and you and
you feel like I got nothing leftto give. And then you crash. And
success has that euphoric effecton us, that if we're not
careful, becomes an intoxic,toxicating force that's driving
us forward into things or tojust because we can, like, just

(53:12):
because you can do it, and justbecause you are effective at it,
doesn't mean that you're in theright space, doing what God
wants you to do at thatparticular

Dave Leake (53:19):
moment. I think it's such a difference. Just because
what you're what you're doing,is going to work doesn't mean
it's what God's asking you todo. There you go. And that feels
you've answered your question,

Jeff Leake (53:28):
yeah. That is, if you're going to summarize this
episode, it's what you justsaid, yeah.

Dave Leake (53:33):
Just because what you can do will work doesn't
mean it's what God's asking. Ithink that's the dilemma in
church and church growth is,well, did God ask you to do
this? Did God ask you to grow itlike that? But I'm doing
genuinely the right. If you ask

Jeff Leake (53:46):
that every hour, you're going to be sure never
doing anything. Yeah, right,right, right? Every couple of
weeks,

Dave Leake (53:53):
at least a couple times a year, yeah, you

Jeff Leake (53:55):
need to say, am I still doing what I'm supposed to
do? Is there anything you wantme to adjust my heart right with
you, God, my writing wanting theright people. Have I become
intoxicated with my own success?
Am I trying to build my ownreputation? Yeah. Is there a way
for me to counteract how youknow, the momentum of this is
has been bad for my soul. How doI take second place? How do I

(54:19):
humble myself? All of these aregood checks for us to come back
to to make sure we're lined upproperly.

Dave Leake (54:28):
It's great. All right. Well, I think that about
wraps up any closing thoughts.

Jeff Leake (54:37):
I would just say it's been such an honor to be
able to be partners with God andin ministry, and I know I
haven't always done itperfectly. Sometimes I've been
driven instead of called.
Sometimes I've been caught up inthe euphoria of it all. There
have been days I've beenfrustrated with the fact that
what I'm doing isn't succeedingon the same level as maybe

(54:58):
what's. Someone else, but I've Ican. I know I'm never going to
be perfect at this, but I lovethe question that I have to keep
coming back to, because it'struly an honor to serve God in
in this capacity of leading inhis in his kingdom, leading in
his church. So these kinds ofmoments are like this particular

(55:19):
topic. Hopefully we've made youpause and ask some good
questions, but I'll just say,stay in the game. Keep on
leading. Lead to the best ofyour ability. You have to be
perfect with this but, but tryto be obedient in the space
where you're in. Let God blessyou there. And keep coming back
to the center where you can getinto that position where you're
dependent on him. How about you?

(55:42):
What's your final thoughts? Justbecause you can doesn't mean
that that's what God's leadingyou to, right? Basically,
doesn't

Dave Leake (55:50):
mean it's being obedient. Just because it's
going to work doesn't mean it'swhat God's asking of you is, I

Unknown (55:54):
think what I was Yeah,

Dave Leake (55:55):
thinking, yeah, I I think asking the question is,
where all this starts. I think,I think the danger is going on
autopilot, going on growthoriented autopilot. It's
working, it's working, it'sworking, it's working. And then
I'm and then all of a sudden I'mexploding and I'm burnt out, or
you're on the risk of having areal failure of integrity, or,

(56:16):
you know, you're in a spot of

Jeff Leake (56:19):
think John Maxwell said it's good to be climbing
the ladder, just make sure theladder is not leaning up against
the wrong wall, right? Yeah,yeah.

Dave Leake (56:28):
So I think, I think the question is the right one to
ask. I think God's honor when weask him to like Holy Spirit, are
you leading me this way? Isthis? Is this what you're is it?
Are these the people to focus onJesus? Because I could go here,
but I think asking thatquestion, and I believe he wants
to answer, and I believe thatthe process of us partnering

(56:48):
with him is what makes him proudmore than the numbers that we
have or the success.

Jeff Leake (56:53):
I think we enjoy it together. He enjoys working with
me. I enjoy it's amazing that Icould say that right? God enjoys
working with us, and that weenjoy working with him back, and
it's part of the pleasure of it,yeah. And I think one piece of
real success is that you thatyou are living in that pleasure,
living in the pleasure ofpartnership with God Wow, where

(57:15):
you're saying to each other,look at what we get to do
together. That's that's that's abeautiful thing. Good.

Dave Leake (57:22):
All right. Well, that about does it for today. So
I hope you enjoyed being a partof this conversation. I think
we're sort of live processing soat least I am. I guess you're
on, you know, the the further

Jeff Leake (57:34):
always. That's part of the beauty of this podcast.
We're both live processingthings, and that's part of why
you have to give us some grace,and what some of the things we
say on this, on these episodes,because just to let you in on
how the sausage is made, so tospeak, we don't prep for these
like you do, to some degree fora little bit, but never for a
whole lot. Some of your prep iswhat you're reading, yeah, but

(57:55):
you'll bring your concerns anddisturbances to the table, and
then we just have an open, rawconversation about it. And
that's why sometimes you'll hearus say things like, I think, I
think this, but I'm not sure. Idon't want to offend over here,
because we really are unfilteredhere. This is the one space we
get to do that, and we're gladthat you're a part of these
conversations. So if you canleave us a like or a review,

(58:17):
yeah, or a comment today, or youwant to subscribe for us on
YouTube, that would be awesome.
You know, it's kind of

Dave Leake (58:22):
crazy. Kind of crazy. Probably in our five
years we've only had to flushmaybe 10 episodes total, or we
started and we're like, that'sbad. That's always a crappy
feeling. As you're like, This isworking day, yeah.

Jeff Leake (58:33):
One we thought was really amazing, and the camera
was, Oh, we

Dave Leake (58:36):
lost it. That was, like, a year and a half ago,
that that was discouraging, sonow we know to look for a red
light right in that camera.
Thank you, producer, Matt, forkeeping us on task with that
now. But hey, we also just like,like you said, we want us to say
thank you for being a part ofus. If you would like to engage
with us, any of those thingsJeff just mentioned, would be
great. You can leave us a fivestar review. And again, if you

(58:58):
do that on Spotify or, sorry,Apple. Excuse me, if you do it
an apple podcast, we'll see yourname. We'd love to shout you
out, but any of those platformsyou're listening on would be
great. You can actually watch itnow in the comments, on Spotify
as well, or on YouTube, you canlike and subscribe, share on
social media. All of this is away that you can actually help
us to reach more people. So ifyou would consider yourself to

(59:20):
be part of our sort of podcastfamily you've been listening for
a while, maybe just considerdoing us a favor by helping to
spread the word, and we wouldreally appreciate it. So again,
thanks for joining us. We'll seeyou guys again next time you.