When Ideologies Attack: A Prophetic Wake-Up Call

When ideologies attack, how do we discern what is true?

In this eye-opening podcast episode, Jeff and Dave Leake expose the dangerous ideologies infiltrating modern Christianity that can distract believers from the true gospel. 

Discover how seven worldviews—from nationalism to critical theory—can subtly undermine biblical teachings and lead Christians astray. 

Learn how to discern, protect your faith, and stay focused on Jesus's transformative message in a world of competing narratives and cultural pressures.

To read the blogs, visit https://www.allisonparkleadershipnetwork.com/blog

To support Dave's church plant, visit allisonparkchurch.com/give and select "Salt Church" from the dropdown.

Welcome to Season 6 Episode 13 of the podcast. Subscribe to the Allison Park Leadership Podcast for more culture-creating conversations.

LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
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Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake

Episode Transcript

Dave Leake (00:00):
This may be the most confusing time it's ever been to

(00:03):
be a Christian when it comes todiscerning what is actually good
or what's evil. There are allkinds of perspectives and
ideologies and worldviews thatpeople all say, this is the
gospel. This is what it means tofollow Jesus. But not all of
them are. That's why this wholeissue is confusing, and if you
would like to hear more abouthow we can guard ourselves and

(00:24):
discern and sift our way throughright and wrong, truth and
falsehoods, this is the perfectepisode for you, so go ahead and
tune in. Hey everybody. Welcometo the Allison Park leadership
podcast, where we have culturecreating conversations. My name
is

Jeff Leake (00:40):
Dave. My name is Jeff, and we want to welcome you
to the episode today. Of course,we're both father and son. We're
on staff at Allison Park church.
I'm the lead pastor here. Daveis the North Side campus pastor
at least for another two months,and then he is shifting to plant
a church in Jacksonville. And weprobably should say, because
some people have asked, so whathappens to the podcast when Dave

(01:00):
moves to Florida? And the answeris, we're gonna keep it going.
Number one, we don't know howwe're gonna keep it going yet.
It might be some some in studiostuff. It might be some stuff
that we'll do in some kind of ait's not hard to zoom. We'll
figure it out world way and butno, and we're appreciative the

(01:21):
fact that so many people areconcerned about that. Actually,
I just got out of a conversationwith several staff, and they
said, when we heard Dave wasgoing to Florida, our first, our
first or second thought was,what's gonna

Dave Leake (01:33):
happen to the podcast? Wow, that's been the
biggest question I've got. Isthere more than anything else,

Jeff Leake (01:39):
not? How can we give you money? Or do you need me to
join your team? Amazing. I wouldlove those to be more common.
And so just for the status sake,so we're middle of July now, and
probably you listen to thistowards the end of the month or
later. What's status update,Dave, where are we on the
journey? And offer to sell ourhouse yesterday? Okay, Wow,

(01:59):
congratulations, yep,

Dave Leake (02:02):
and we're working on some of the look and feel of the
brand and all that kind ofstuff, yeah. So we're, I mean,
we're making progress. I guesswhen we get a little further, we
could, always, I could give alittle, you know, snapshot.

Jeff Leake (02:16):
Maybe in every episode, we'll give people
status reports, that way theycan track along with us.

Dave Leake (02:20):
Sure, yeah, but if you'd like to give towards it,
we're calling it salt church.
And salt church has a KingdomBuilder a little on the Allison

Jeff Leake (02:29):
Park church website.
If you you go to the give spot,there's a drop down menu, and
there's actually several churchplants. So actually, the great
news, I should probably add thisin before we dive into our
topic. So one of the thingswe've been doing over a lot of
years is parenting churches, andthat's what we're gonna do with
Dave's church in Jacksonvillewith salt church. But actually
we have four church planningprojects for 2026 and so two in

(02:52):
Pittsburgh, one in New YorkCity, one in Jacksonville,
Florida. All of them should beon that drop down menu that you
can give toward and we're pumpedabout that.

Dave Leake (03:03):
So, you know, I'll just, can I just give my quick
little spiel about what salt is?
Because I like, people are like,Oh, it's because you're by the
beach. I'm like, not really.
There's a, there's a passage innumbers 18. It's in this it's
shortly after the Exodus fromEgypt, where God is sort of
giving the terms of the covenantto his people, and they start

(03:23):
dividing out the portions ofland and the promised land that
each of the 12 Tribes of Israelis going to get now that they've
left Egypt. And in numbers 18,God is talking specifically to
Moses, brother Aaron and hisdescendants, the priestly tribe,
and he says, you know, you'renot going to get land the way
that everybody else is going toget it, you know, instead, I'm

(03:46):
going to be your inheritance andyour portion. And he says, we're
going to establish a covenant ofsalt between, you know, me and
you and your descendantsforever.

Jeff Leake (03:54):
What is, what is the, what's the salt part of it?
I don't think I know that.

Dave Leake (03:58):
What's the salt part? What's covenant of salt?
Yeah, what is that? So scholarsand theologians think the idea
of why it's salt is thatdescribe several things. One
thing is permanence, orpreservation, is what I mean,
sorry, preservation. Saltpreserves. It's also it
describes, sort of, the preciousnature of the relationship and

(04:18):
purity. Salt keeps things

Jeff Leake (04:19):
pure because salt was a way of actually a money
exchange. It was so valuable,

Dave Leake (04:24):
right? Yeah, yeah, purity. So, yeah. So the idea
for salt, I was pulling all mystuff up because I'm trying to
get my language together. We'recalling it salt, because in the
Bible, salt is a symbol of God'sfaithful promise that he himself
is our portion. And so the ideais, in a world where we're
chasing more we believe thatwhat we need most is not more

(04:46):
stuff, it's more of Hispresence. Good. So very excited
to launch us all that'll behappening.

Jeff Leake (04:50):
For those of you who grew up in your generation, you
could actually add the P at thefront and the Y, called it salty
church, and have the songbook

Dave Leake (04:58):
paint ourselves blue. I. Yeah, all right, we'll
move on from that. So let's,let's get into the episode
today. Oh, I guess we should dogratitude first. Yes, go ahead,
no new shout outs today to giveto anybody left a five star
review. You always can get yoursif you'd like to go to Apple
podcasts, leave us five starreview, and it'll give us your
name. But we always just want totake a second to give thanks.

(05:18):
Excuse me. To those that havebeen listeners for a while.
Thank you for being a part ofthe show. And if you're new to
us, welcome. Glad you're gladyou're listening. Today, today,
we are going to be talking abouta series of blog posts you've
written over the sort of latespring and into early summer
that are all about clarifyingand protecting relationships,

(05:41):
but the church in general andsort of sorting through the
chaos of the political, sociallandscape that we live in today.
And so one of the blog posts youwrote was called, was it called
a prophetic wake up call? Am Igetting that right?

Jeff Leake (05:56):
So the title was, when ideologies attack a
prophetic wake up call, which?
Which? As we were getting readyfor the show, you said that
right now, prophetic wake WakeUp Call is an overused phrase,

Dave Leake (06:11):
no, no. I didn't mean it like that,

Jeff Leake (06:13):
like me. I didn't mean to

Dave Leake (06:15):
like that. I just mean. I feel like, yeah, here we
go. An ideologist attack aprophetic wake up call. I just
mean a prophetic wake up call. Ifeel like that's been the gong,

Jeff Leake (06:23):
yeah, hundreds. So the reason so, and I probably
have described this multipletimes on the podcast, but I
started to feel in late springof this year, this burning
desire to write this series ofblog posts. There's seven of
them now, and you can find themat Allison Park leadership
network.com go to the verybottom of the homepage, and it's

(06:46):
there anyway, because I had beentalking with multiple spiritual
leaders about either theirpersonal struggle over some
things that were happeningbecause of What they were
walking through in their churchbecause of these collision of
worldviews that are happeningnow and the polarization in

(07:06):
society, and then it's just beenfive years of this. I mean, a
lot of the stuff we talk abouton this podcast has been about
worldviews and ideologies andpolitical tensions and
polarizations, but for whateverreason, it just started to
crystallize for me, and I'vejust felt like I, I felt almost
a compulsion to write this downlike so these seven posts are,

(07:29):
you know, really we kind ofworking out my own thought
processes and and clarifying itdown to the detail. Anyway, the
prophetic wake up call partcomes from a prophetic dream
that I had in 2020 that kind ofsets up the discussion of why I
call it when ideologies

Dave Leake (07:47):
attack, yeah, and you found

Jeff Leake (07:50):
so it's not like a prophetic wake up call. I'm
prophesying to the generationsthat something specific is
coming. It was a prophetic wakeup call for me during 2020 when
I when I had a dream that I knewwas from the Holy Spirit. Yeah,

Dave Leake (08:03):
okay, so, so we'll get to those. You wrote seven,
and none of these seven probablyare that new to things we're

Jeff Leake (08:08):
discussing. No, no, we probably, we may have done a
slice of conversations abouteach one of these, although a
couple of them we haven't. Yeah,we need to, and we need to. Yes,

Dave Leake (08:18):
that's great. So we'll get into those before we
do though, I think a goodstarting point like so you sort
of throughout these seven. Andby the way, if people want to
access this, they can go to theAllison Park leadership
network.com, yep. And they canfind the blog and sort of go

(08:38):
back. And I think in what was itwould have been May. Was no
April. April 22 was the firstpost of the series of seven that
you did. So you can go throughand read these, I would
encourage you to do so. They'rereally good and they're very
clear, but you sort of have afew different angles. Some of
them are how we build bridges,how we build relationships.
There's different ways that wecan interact with the world in a

(09:00):
positive way. You broke downscripture and some of the
commands and prescriptions thatJesus gives us as a church to
navigate and wade through someof the waters we're in today.
But you also strove. Strove,strived. I'm not sure what the
word is to give clarity onissues that tend to be muddy,
and you know, part of that, Ithink you talked in one of your

(09:21):
posts how there's a lot ofpressure to thread the needle
with exact language, or else yourisk a lot of attack and
pushback. And so you just weresort of like, let's just get it
clear and let's talk about allof this, which I think is great.
Think it's part of the goal ofthe podcast as well that we're
doing. So here's where I want tostart. Though you talked about

(09:44):
different relationships,different levels that we as
church leaders or as Christianscan interact and partner with
people you started with sort ofthe idea of the multi faith
network. So can you go throughthis? Yeah,

Jeff Leake (09:56):
so there's four ways that I think we as believe.
Believers in Jesus Christ,followers of Christ can engage
to make the world a betterplace. Okay, the very first one
is what I will call bridgebuilding activities. Bridge
building activities is where youseek to build a bridge with
people that you have adifference of opinion upon. So
again, one of the initiativesI'm actively involved with is

(10:20):
multi faith neighbors network,which helps evangelical pastors,
Jewish rabbis and Muslim Imamsto build friendships and to work
for peace in their city andreligious freedom around the
world. I'm never going to cometo a theological agreement with
an Imam, sure, or a rabbi, but Idon't have to be in agreement

(10:43):
with them, on on, on politics ortheology to work with them on
things we all agree on, which isthat people should have
religious freedom and we shouldbe working for the peace and
prosperity of our area, right?
So bridge building activitiesare do not require unanimity or
uniformity of thought, they justrequire that we have some common

(11:03):
ground that we're workingtowards a similar goal. Yeah,
similar goal,

Dave Leake (11:09):
by the way. What are some of the goals that the multi
faith network has?

Jeff Leake (11:12):
Yeah? So, um, well, do good in your city. So, like,
one of the things we did in 2020was we provided food for Afghan
refuge refugees that were movinginto the region, because the you
know, there was the exit fromAfghanistan that happened and
people were fleeing. Okay, so,so it's doing good in your city
whenever there are issues thatarise, speaking up for one

(11:35):
another, like, for instance,speaking up for the Jewish
community right now, becausethey're often the victims of
anti semitism, right so therewould have been some times in
our history where Muslims in ourarea would have been victims of
attack because of some of thetensions that were going on in
the world due to the Middle Eastcrisis. So it's and then around

(11:59):
the world, there's a lot oftimes, Christians who are in
other countries that are beingpersecuted for their faith, and
so multi faith navals networkworks to protect people's
religious practices in hostileplaces all over the world. So
it's a good thing. So bridgebuilding activities is one of
those things. Second thing thatwe can engage to change the
world with is what was numbertwo, it was cause based

(12:24):
advocacy, right? This is whereyou you adopt a cause something
that needs to change in ourworld. So we need to see, okay,
so cause specific, at causespecific, yeah, so these, these
has to do with especially thefour social issues that we talk
about. Like to speak up againstracial racial inequities or
racial injustice, to stand forthe protection of the unborn.

(12:49):
There are to provide a way formoms who are pregnant and
wanting to choose life to havean option to do so. It's, it's,
it's where you adapt an issueyou feel passionate about, and
you work for that cause. Now,when you work for a cause, you
may or may not be creatingunity, right? In fact, probably

(13:13):
because you're going to bepushing for that particular
issue, they're going to be a lotof people unhappy with you, but
you are working for that,because that is the aim of your
organization, or your moment,right? To advocate for a cause,
okay? The third, the third wayto make change is political
activism, right? This is whereyou get involved in the

(13:36):
political sphere because youwant to see a policy change, or
you want to see a shift in somelaw or approach. And a lot of
times, I think, especially onthis podcast, Dave, we have
almost, in some ways, playeddown political activism, like,
like, it's almost evil or wrongfor the church to get involved.
But technically, being apolitical leader is not a bad

(13:59):
thing, no right being partisanand polarizing is a bad thing,
but being a person involved inpolitics trying to lead in your
city or in your state,

Dave Leake (14:11):
we actually need that. Yeah, it's desperate like
for the for the record, I don'tthink that that the goal has
been to say political activismis wrong. I think compromising
Christian, like Christianpurity, or, you know, stances, I
guess, like biblical worldviewstances, for the sake of
politics, is not good.

Jeff Leake (14:32):
Yeah, right. So on both sides of the political
equation, there's a there's atendency to want to redefine
Christianity into thatparticular party's agenda, and
that's where it becomes bad. Butokay, an example Pastor Chris
Griffin, who was one of ourcampus pastors for years, has
now shifted. He's no longer onour staff as a pastor, he still
does pastoral things. Hepreaches and teaches around the

(14:53):
region, but he works for acompany that serves churches in
their financial. School youknow, bookkeeping needs Cheney
and Associates. Anyway, Chris isnow running for school board,
yeah, right, in the pineRichland School District,
because he wants to make adifference in his school system,

(15:14):
advocate for things that areimportant to Christian families,
as well as to try to improve thewhole school school system to
make it good for all kids,right? Yeah, so that he was a
pastor, now he's a politician,and he weren't running for
office like a good thing, right?
But obviously, once you identifywith a particular party and
point of view that also isn'talways a unifying activity, but

(15:36):
it's an important activity,right? Okay, then the fourth way
of making change is what I'llcall Christian leadership. This
is in the church. This isprotecting the church. This is
making sure the church stays ontrack, teaches the right
doctrines. This is makes makingsure that we don't give in to
syncretism, which is the mixingof things that don't really

(15:57):
belong with Christianity.
Because sometimes in the pushfor social change, there's a
desire to adopt ideologies thatdon't come from the Bible, and
to sanctify them and make themholy, as if they're the tools
that God's going to use to makethe world a better place. And
when that happens, toxicityenters the church, and

(16:19):
oftentimes we end up going indirections Jesus never intended
for us

Dave Leake (16:22):
to try. Yeah? And we'll talk about some of those
different things that have madetheir way into

Jeff Leake (16:27):
into the church.
Yeah. So, so this, this isconfusing in a way, because as a
spiritual leader, I want tobuild bridges with people I
don't want don't agree with,right, right? I want to advocate
for causes that are important tome and to into you know, as the
scripture teaches a follower ofJesus should hold certain
values, I want to be supportiveof someone like Chris Griffin,

(16:47):
who's involved in politics. AndI also want to protect the
house, yeah, to make sure that,as I'm being a pastor, I'm not
allowing anything in the houseof God that doesn't align with
God's word, and I'm staying trueto the mission and to the
teachings of Jesus in the house.

(17:08):
So we, from the house, influencethe world, but when we're in the
house, we have to make sure thatwe stay on track in terms of our
myth, mission, values and ourbelief system. And as a pastor,
part of my job is to protect thesheep from dangerous predators
that would try to consume ordestroy them. Yeah, and, and so

(17:29):
this is this multi level kind ofleadership that is difficult to
know. You know what hat you haveon and what sphere you're in and
when you're supposed to be doingthe things you're doing. And I
think it's part of what makesleading in this era so complex.
And I hope we didn't lose youwith all of that. Again, you can
go back and read the full blog,blog post, maybe it will make

(17:50):
sense to you, but I'll say ofthe four, my primary job is not
to be involved in politics,advocate for causes or build
bridges. My primary cause is tobe your pastor, yeah, you know.
And to protect and to protectyour soul. You talked about
protecting,

Dave Leake (18:07):
which I think is good. But the interesting thing,
and I guess I'm not sure wherethis is gonna lead us, but I'll
just start to dip into this. Theinteresting thing about it's not
just protecting, but it's beingcareful about who we associate
with. There's all in the house,yeah, there's all kinds of New
Testament scriptures that talkabout Don't be unequally yoked,

(18:31):
not well that and not just that.
I mean, you know, with Matthew18, for example, when it talks
about how we handle conflict, ifsomebody is unrepentant within
the conflict they're causing.
It's saying, the end of it says,treat them as you would a pagan
or a tax collector or in FirstCorinthians five, you know, Paul

(18:52):
literally says, don't associatewith anybody who claims to be a
Christian but is sexuallyimmoral, greedy, an adulterous,
slanderer, a drunkard, aswindler. Do not even eat with
such people. Expel the wickedperson from among you. I mean,
that's crazy.

Jeff Leake (19:06):
So this is actually a bit counter culture to one of
the core values of our currentgeneration. Maybe, maybe I
should say two of the corevalues, that's tolerance and
inclusivity. Yeah, right, well,but to be a healthy church.
There are some things you can'ttolerate and there's some things
that can't be included. That'sright, actually, not just things

(19:28):
some people right can't beincluded if you're going to
truly be a holy house of God,people who are unrepentant or
who are a wolf. I say that rightWolf, Wolf, I would say this
wrong wolves, wolf in sheep'sclothing are not to be
tolerated, actually. So thereare some people who are have a

(19:50):
hostile intent for the house ofGod, or are living a compromised
life. You look at Jesus when Heshows up in Revelation and he
is. Is giving his messages toJohn, to the seven churches. He
talks about this woman namedJezebel, right, right, not.
That's not her name. He uses aterm from the Old Testament,

(20:11):
Jezebel, and says, you know,don't associate with her,
because her she is leadingpeople to sin, yeah. So this is,
this is almost feels wrong topeople to think, you mean, we're
not 100% inclusive. Well, wearen't, neither is God. There
are some things that you don'tsome doctrines you don't
tolerate, there's practices youdon't tolerate, there's leaders

(20:35):
you don't tolerate.

Dave Leake (20:36):
Yeah, it's sort of a holy intolerance. It is. It's
okay. It's not just, by the way,it's not just a little bit in
Scripture. It's a lot inScripture. Sure, can I, like,
just go through some things.
I'll just, I'll stick the NewTestament. All right, just New
Testament. So I read first,Corinthians, five, Titus, Titus
310, and 11. Warn a divisiveperson once, and then warn them

(20:56):
a second time after that, havenothing to do with them. You
must. You may be sure that suchpeople are warped and sinful.
They are self condemned. That'sTitus Second Thessalonians, 314,
and 15 take special note ofanyone who does not obey. Obey
our instruction these letters.
Do not associate with them inorder that they may feel

(21:16):
ashamed. You do not yet. Do notregard them as an enemy, but
warn them, as you would a fellowbeliever, like it's this idea of
separation that hopefully leadsto redemption. Galatians 61
talks about, actually,restoration for these kinds of
people, brothers and sisters, ifsomeone is caught in a sin, you,
who live by the Spirit, shouldrestore that person gently, but

(21:37):
watch yourself, or you may alsobe tempted. And then First
Timothy, 520 but those elderswho are sinning, those elders
who are sinning, you are toapprove before everyone. That
means, like, rebuke publicly, sothat others may take warning.
There's like, there's veryclearly, this isn't even an
exhaustive or

Jeff Leake (21:58):
Ananias and Sapphira, we did an episode on
that before were struck downbecause they were being
dishonest. In the presence ofGod, there lied the Holy Spirit.
There was there's the passage, Ithink, First Corinthians five or
six, where a man was sleepingwith his stepmom and is is Paul
disfellowships him from thechurch because of his his
behavior, and warns the churchthat they're tolerating

(22:18):
something they shouldn't betolerating. So, yeah. So again,
two things can be true at thesame time. We want to build
bridges with people who are notlike us, and we want to protect
the house of God, right? Whathappens in the house and outside
the house are two differentthings, and as spiritual
leaders, we have to know whatour assignment is outside of the

(22:39):
house of God and how we interactwith the world around us, and
what our assignment is for thehouse of God, which is to not
tolerate anything Jesus wouldn'ttolerate, right? And not include
anyone Jesus wouldn't include. I

Dave Leake (22:51):
think you know, there's a lot of scriptures that
talk about living in peace andwith a good reputation, like we
should be loving and and makingpeace with those that are around
us, but tolerance, at leastwithin a Christian body, is
actually not a Christian value.
It is. It's actually love isactually a sin. Yes, tolerance
is a sin if you allow things tobe like accepted and normalized

(23:13):
for the sake of love, that's notreally loving. It's just,
honestly, can be cowardly, whichis,

Jeff Leake (23:22):
which is okay. Now, this, this, this episode today
sort of weaves in a lot of ourthemes from the past couple of
years. I mean, I still listenoften to little clips from
Philip Anthony Mitchell, who isthis pastor from Atlanta,
Georgia, who preaches the paintoff the walls, I mean, and like,

(23:42):
he is so brokenhearted aboutthings, but he does not play
with anything that the Biblecalls sin, yeah, and he calls it
out repeatedly. And somethinginspiring to me about that,
because he's purifying thechurch in his efforts to preach
that way. I want to be that kindof spiritual leader too, a

(24:03):
bridge builder outside, but apastor who's protecting and
purifying through the way that Iteach the scriptures and lead
people to follow Jesus, right?
And that's a that's a hard thingfor pastors to get, and it's a
hard thing for people churchpeople to get, because if you go
preaching at the world thethings they're wrong about, that

(24:23):
is not the right application tointolerance. That's where you
get a bad reputation with theworld. Because our job is not to
correct the world, it's tocorrect the house of God. So
we're not to go around tellingthe world where it's wrong.
Well, of course, the world'swrong. They're not a right
relationship with Jesus like, ofcourse, they don't have the
right theology. They haven'tentered into a relationship with

(24:44):
God through Christ. They're notwalking according to the
standards of the Scripture. Ofcourse, they're going to be
there's going to be differences,but for those who call
themselves Christians, thosethat want to be a part of the
family of God, those that aregoing to teach and preach in in
the context. East of of God'shouse, there has to be certain
things that we tolerate anddon't tolerate. And there's some

(25:04):
things that we include and don'tinclude, because there's a
there's a separate agenda in thehouse of God. Yeah, then there
is in the way that we interactwith the world around so

Dave Leake (25:14):
let me dig into here just for a second, because I
think once we go intoideologies, it will, it will be
a different can of worms, butlike when it comes to what we
tolerate in a church, I thinkthis is kind of a key point. I
think we're talking about what achurch family is okay with

(25:35):
accepting that there's a levelof this versus, let me just try
a different way, and you canhelp correct me. I think we're
not talking about people thatare trying to live for God, that
are sometimes falling into sin,or that are struggling, oh no,
this is not strugglers. We'retalking about people that are
sort of openly choosing to dosomething combative, combative,

(25:59):
or that's just rebellious. It'slike, it's like, you know what,
I believe in God, but doesn'tGod's grace cover this? Like,
isn't this? I mean, what? God'sgonna forgive me? Like, just a
real, direct example, theScripture talks really clearly
about, you know, sex beforemarriage. So there's a lot of
people that want to livetogether with a girlfriend or
boyfriend, or, you know, justnot follow God's restrictions on

(26:24):
sex before marriage, if, as achurch, we get really chill
about that, and it's just likeyou can kind of do whatever you
want to do. What we're doing istolerating open sin. It's not
it's not struggling,

Jeff Leake (26:35):
okay, let me clarify a little bit. Please help. Okay,
so someone who shows up livingtogether becomes aware of the
fact that it's wrong and ismoving towards making that right
by getting married. That is agood thing, right? Someone that
shows up living together says, Iunderstand what the Word
teaches. I reject that. In fact,I'm going to give voice to the

(26:58):
fact that I don't actually thinkthat this is a big deal and that
we should soften our stance onthe standards of Christian
sexuality. That person is nowleading people away from the
truth of the Scripture, and thatcan't be tolerated even,

Dave Leake (27:14):
even just I understand that this is wrong
according to what the Word ofGod says, but I'm not going to
do that right now, because I'mjust not there. Yeah,

Jeff Leake (27:23):
so I don't know that that's an intolerance thing. I
think that's a lovingconfrontation, okay, between
drawing a hard line, no doubt.
So, so as a pastor, this is whatpastors do, right? So if
someone's like, let's take itout of the sex before marriage
thing, and they're involved inany kind of compromising
activity, they're not payingtheir taxes on something, right?
Like they're making money underthe table. And I find out that

(27:43):
that is doesn't really line upwith Christian integrity. The
conversation is going to belike, Hey, listen, I know you
got this opportunity. Can I justchallenge you on this? Because I
love you and I care about you, Iwant you to think about wouldn't
it? Wouldn't it be better,right, to keep your integrity
before God and expect hisblessing. I think

Dave Leake (28:06):
he might have just opened up something that we've
never talked about, by the way,which is money under the table.
What are you talking about?
That's going to be a wholedifferent thing. You use that as
if it was an obvious example.
But, yeah, no, maybe that wouldbe worth talking about. Yeah,
yeah. But so

Jeff Leake (28:21):
there's a lot of little things. Like, it
shouldn't say little things.
There are a lot of things thatdon't align with the word. But a
person coming to Christ andgrowing in in Jesus becomes
aware like, Okay, I'm stillbecoming aware, after all these
years of following Christ, ofthings in my life that don't
align with Jesus. And I'm beingcorrected constantly. When you
become aware of something andand you start to become

(28:41):
convicted about it. That's whereyou need a pastor to help you
walk that out. And maybe you getbecome convicted of it, and you
talked yourself out of it, like,oh, porn is not that big of a
deal, okay? Like, you know,everybody looks at and you got
yourself in a position ofcompromise, and it's affecting
your soul, a good pastor willcome alongside and say, bro, you
got to stop like that's nothealthy for you. And I believe

(29:03):
God can give you victory. And Iknow you think you can't get
over this, but you can, like agood pastor is protective in
that they are walking somebodythrough steps to get free from
some things, or to come to maybea more mature perspective on
things as they become more awareof what God expects for them
through the teaching of God'sWord. There's a difference
between that. And I know whatI'm supposed to do, and I refuse

(29:25):
to do it, and I'm and I'm goingto sort of dig in here, and I'm
going to, not only, you know,step out of God's covering,
because I'm not surrendered toHis purpose anymore. I'm going
to try to lead other people todo the same, sure, sure. That's
the that's the furthest, that'swhere you confront, that's where
you say, that's not, you know,

Dave Leake (29:48):
absolutely, yeah. I think what the distinction I'm
trying to make is, I think oneof the things that is really
damaging to Christians, not justto church leaders, but to
Christians in general. Issometimes the mistaken belief
that, well, if I believe in Godand I've prayed a prayer, I can
kind of live how I want, withoutsurrendering. We've talked about
this a lot, but, and whereas,you know, the Bible is really

(30:11):
clear on, don't allow this kindof stuff and or like tolerance.
And in the case of it's not whenI'm talking about struggling
with sin, but just, yeah, I'mnot going to do this even that
is not a tolerable, tolerabletype of practice. So privately
confronting, yes, we're nottalking about publicly blasting
somebody like, hey, there's sin.
They're not fixing it right now.

(30:33):
Let's just get up on stage andabsolutely say, here's a list of
people on their sins. It's notthat okay.

Jeff Leake (30:39):
But there are, there are things that are more loving,
pastoral conversations, that arehard conversations, yes, and
then the Philip, AnthonyMitchell, I'm calling this out
because this is a trend yes inour in our society, and it's
entered the church as aworldview and thought process.
And it has to be called outbecause some of you have given
into this, and you have got torepent. That's, that's, I guess,

(31:03):
the spectrum of things. That's

Dave Leake (31:04):
what I mean, yeah, and I'm all I'm trying to say is
some ideology, some beliefs,some trends, actually, are
totally opposite of what theBible says and what the Gospel
says, and they have to be calledout. We have to call those out.
But I'm saying, and I thinkthat's

Jeff Leake (31:20):
probably a good distinction the way you're
saying it. Here's what I mean,not so much calling out people,
right, calling out trends. We'renot so much calling out
individuals and saying You arewrong. We're calling out belief
systems and compromises and

Dave Leake (31:33):
practices. Yeah, but individually like we should not
just pastors like Christianstogether, we should be holding
each other, like, to certainstandards, yeah, yeah. Not, not
to earn salvation, but becausewe are, like, there, you know,
like, if you want to be inrelationship with God, don't let
this destroy you, yeah, youknow. So anyway, we

Jeff Leake (31:55):
start to get into ideologies. Now we're into a
different category. Now we'renot so much talking about
compromises and trends insociety and belief systems that
are not aligned with scripture.
Now we're talking about what wewould call polarization
ideologies that have entered thechurch world as as the adopted

(32:17):
solutions for a broken world andthe and what I and what I feel
real passionate about, is thatthere are some ideologies that
are present in our world thatdon't align at all with the
gospel and are dividers. Theytake us way off track, and they

(32:37):
actually aren't solutions forthe world anyway, and in the
house of God, I think we have toget back to the core idea, which
is that the gospel of Jesus isthe thing that changes
everything. Yeah, so, but thatsort of, I guess, turns us a
little in that direction, yeah.

(32:58):
Well, I know that we have a lotto cover if we're gonna hit the
ideologies.

Dave Leake (33:02):
Well, let's do the ideologies of one second. I just
wanna make sure we fully, youknow, dust off this part we're
on. Now, I've actually beencurious about this anyway, so,
you know, like, you wrote onepost about, like, being careful,
like, you know, don't judge, orelse you'll be judged. But then,
obviously, there's otherscriptures that talk about not

(33:24):
just discerning, but also, youknow, judging within the house
of God, meaning like helping.
Well, yeah, so

Jeff Leake (33:29):
so that it's, it's a funny thing. I never really saw
Matthew Chapter Seven this way.
This is the final chapter inJesus. Three chapter Sermon on
the Mount. Matthew chapterseven. Jesus starts with a heavy
challenge to not be judgmental,right? Don't judge. You'll be
judged with the measure you usewill be measured back to you,
yeah. Then he talks about, youknow, don't say you have a, you

(33:51):
know, a speck in your eye whenyou have to your brother,
whenever you have a log on yourown. Like, so you think Jesus is
sort of starting up by saying,don't judge, don't judge, don't
judge. And then the rest of thechapter is all about evaluating
things. Like, the very nextsection, he says, Don't throw
your pearls before swine. Like,what? Like, what are you saying?

(34:14):
Like, that seems like maybe themost judgmental statement, but
he's actually saying,distinguish, discern what pigs
can appreciate. Don't give thempearls. They'll never appreciate
that. You got to know who you'retalking to destroy the pearls.
They'll destroy them, right? Soyou got to be discerning. And
then the rest of Chapter Sevenis all him laying out how to

(34:35):
discern those types ofinfluences that are healthy and
unhealthy. So he says, don'tjudge. Don't judge. And then,
man, make sure you do discern,because you don't want to just
shut your mind off to dangersthat are out there. You got to
discern what could bepotentially hostile toward your
soul. And he and in thatchapter, he warns about you.

(34:57):
Some people are. They look likesheep, but they're actually
wolves. Okay, that's wolves.
Wolves. Let me, let me,

Dave Leake (35:06):
let me. Hone in a little bit. So I think there's a
view within a lot of Christiancircles, maybe even, maybe it
even is the right view, but it'sa view that I think I can
express, and it's sort of likeeach person is accountable to
God by themselves, and we allhave sin, so be careful not to
call out people too much,whether you're a pastor or

(35:27):
you're just a Christian, becausewe don't want to be judged that
way. And then it's also sort ofthis idea of, if we do that,
we're going to become one ofthose super judgy churches where
people walk in and they feelunloved, and isn't it somebody
else's personal issue anyway.
But as we've been kind ofdiscussing, like I mentioned
this one before, first,Corinthians, 512, and 13, Paul
says, What business is it ofmine to judge those outside of

(35:48):
the church? And he says, Are younot to judge Are you not to
judge those inside? God willjudge those outside. Expel the
wicked person from among you.
He's like you definitely shouldbe judging those inside. We're
talking about tolerance andintolerance. We're talking about
ideologies before we just get topublic ideologies. How do we

(36:10):
privately, not just as pastors,but as Christians? How do we
it's not just keeping a standardof holiness. It's sharpening
other people. It's restoringthem. It's, yeah, the word judge

Jeff Leake (36:22):
kind of is used in so many different ways that I
think it's important that we,that we make this really

Dave Leake (36:29):
clear. That's why I'm asking this question. So

Jeff Leake (36:33):
judgmental is never good, right? Judgmental is a
tone, it's an attitude, it's asuperiority, it's, I'm looking
down at you and you don'tmeasure up to my standard.
Judgmental is bad, discerning isgood, discerning is this is wise
or unwise. This is good or bad,this is healthy or unhealthy.

(36:54):
And it helps to identify thingsthrough discernment that are
having a negative or positiveeffect on a person's life or on
a church's situation,

Dave Leake (37:06):
but also whether something is right or wrong
before God

Jeff Leake (37:09):
too, exactly, yeah, when you discern that, then you
have to decide what to do withit, and in some cases, bringing
correction is a part of that, ifyou're in leadership and you
have the right to do so, youknow, it's not that some
Christians feel they have thegift of judgment, and they're
gonna go seriously, and they goaround pronouncing condemnation

(37:29):
on everybody, and that is reallytoxic. So a person, a pastor,
when they discern a problem thathas to develop the solution for
how to handle that problem sothat so as to bring that
situation back into a place ofhealth. So when Paul says, Judge
those inside the house, notoutside the house, it's not our
job to judge the world. That's aGod's job. That's why we don't

(37:52):
spend time correcting the worldon things they they believe and
don't believe. But in the house,it is our job to discern what's
going on so that we can teachand correct and instruct and
guide and pastor and protectpeople into a place of health
and truth. So in the house, wehave to make sure that we have

(38:14):
brought the proper level ofleadership to situations that
need that discernment and and todo it with the right tone or the
right firmness, yeah, and theright encouragement and love, so
that the place that we areleading is healthy, yeah, right?
And so judgmental, bad,discerning, good, discerning

(38:35):
with some kind of decision to dosomething, and confrontation,
yeah? With, with lovingcorrection, confrontation and
and grace. And, you know, beingconfronted in a way that you
need to be confronted in love isalways a good thing. It is
right. It's better the what doesit say the correction of a or

(38:57):
the wounds of a friend, than thekisses of an enemy? I guess is
an enemy. So sometimes you needa wound to to move forward in
the right direction, and that'snot a bad thing. So yeah, it's
it is important to have adiscerning heart and that, and
honestly, to feel that you'reunder the kind of pastoral
leadership in your local churchthat is going to apply this

(39:20):
discerning discipline with theright measured approach. Yeah.
So if you have a if you ifyou're a pastor, and you're
constantly railing at the sinsof the world, that's probably
out of bounds. If you'reconstantly condemning your own
people and putting weight onthem of guilt and shame, that's
probably the wrong thing. But ifyou're pointing out things that

(39:43):
are dangerous, and you'reconfronting trends that are
unhealthy, and you're you'recorrecting believers that may
not be walking in the right way,and you're providing that out of
good, solid biblical teaching,you're going to end up building
a healthy place where people cangrow spiritually and feel safe.

Dave Leake (40:00):
To do. So can I? Can I add and see if you think this
is sure, in line with whatyou're saying, I feel like it
means we need to, we need tolook at the church, at least the
Okay, when I say the church, notnot a weekend service, but the
people who belong to a churchfamily as something that you are
a part of, not something thatyou attend. Yeah, so And because

(40:20):
you're belonging to somethingand to a group of people, it
means that being a part of God'sfamily means that you are
committing to follow Jesus. Andif there are things that are
obvious in your life that aregoing to be damaging to you or
to other people or to yourrelationship with God, there
needs to be love and correction,or else we're sort of enabling

(40:40):
somebody to destroy themselvesand possibly others,

Jeff Leake (40:44):
and actually think it's more than just we're part
of God's family. I like kind oflook like this. And maybe this
is new to some of you who arerecent to a church like Allison
Park and you're attending andthat is, your pastor is really
given charge by God to care foryour soul, and you need to be a
part of a church where you feellike you can submit to your

(41:05):
pastor the care of your soul,not that you're not responsible
for yourself, or that you're notgoing to take the initiative to
deal with your own stuff. He'snot going to do your Christian
life for you or she. It's it'sthat you're saying, I trust you
to have my back and to be acovering over my life, so that,
just like a shepherd, you know,takes care of sheep, you're

(41:28):
gonna you're gonna look to takecare of me that way. And there's
a level of trust andrelationship that's there, like
Father Son, like motherdaughter, that that kind of
relationship, in a way, that'swhat a pastor does, and you want
to be in a church that you feellike you can be pastored like
this. This is this person ispastoring me the way that they

(41:49):
live their life and the way theyteach and preach and and I guess
a pastoral team and a church oursize is helping, providing the
covering and protection andguidance for your soul. And you
should want to be a part of achurch where you say, I'm now
submitting my soul to the careof this pastoral team, because I
need their input in my life forme to spiritually flourish.

Dave Leake (42:11):
That's great. That's great. Yeah. I think everybody
should have somebody that is anauthority over them, yeah. And
if you don't have anybody that'san authority, that's going to
be,

Jeff Leake (42:19):
you know, in the confront my my dad, who's now
gone to be with Jesus, attendedmy church, the church that I
pastor right for 15 years at theend of his life. And every time
he would greet me, would say,Pastor, how are you? And he was
saying that, not just as a termof respect, but in a way, he was
saying, You're my pastor now,like so my dad, who was my
pastor all my life, submittedHimself to my pastor leadership

(42:42):
for over a decade, and recognizethat all the time by the way
that he treated me. Yeah, wow.
And that that's like, no one'sabove having a pastor. Everybody
needs one, right? Doesn't matterif you are a pastor, you need
someone who's your pastor to beable to speak into your life.

Dave Leake (42:59):
I love that. Okay, all right, we've, I think we've
hit that enough, yeah, let's nowtalk about these seven different
things you talked about that areideologies. Where do I have this
seven different ideologies thatyou were a prophetic wake up
call about? Again, this articleis called when ideologist Zach a
prophetic wake up call, and youstart out by saying, in 2021

(43:21):
while recovering from chaos ofthe pandemic year, I had a
prophetic dream, and there's apicture of a tiger. Do you want
to just recap that again?

Jeff Leake (43:28):
So I was standing on the outside of this big patio
area that had, you know, fourcolumns surrounding it, kind of
a latticed roof with vinesgrowing over top of it. And
around that patio was like ajungle scene, giraffes and
elephants and monkeys flyingfrom tree to tree. And there was

(43:49):
a baby over in the corner, a farcorner from me, in a bassinet.
And as I was watching the baby,there was a tiger that jumped up
on the patio and grabbed thebaby and started to run away
with it, and I felt the HolySpirit say, rise up and use your
authority do something about it.
So in prayer, kind of, I rebukethe devil and the tiger dropped
the baby and ran away. Then Iwoke up, and I woke up feeling

(44:11):
the presence of God. And it waslike I knew it was I knew it
wasn't just a pizza dream, likeit was a, it was a prophetic
dream. So I just began tomeditate that on a prayer, and I
realized that the tigerrepresents the world system,
yeah, and because of thehostility that we were living in
in 2020, the world system wantedto destroy the innocence, the

(44:36):
people of God, those that wereat risk, new believers, anything
that was, you know, needed mypastoral protection, and that,
rather than just watching allthe chaos happen this jungle
that we were in in 2020 Godsaid, stop just watching and
being a spectator, rise up anduse your authority and protect
protect the baby. Yeah. Okay, soover the years. Years, I have

(44:59):
meditated more on what the worldsystem is, and that's where I
came up with these ideologies.
Now I should say this, I am aradical when it comes to
believing the methodology ofJesus. I believe that Jesus
provided the pathway to changethe world, and that is the
gospel Paul teaches. He saidthis in First Corinthians,

(45:22):
chapter two, I decided to knownothing among you except for
Jesus, Christ and Him crucified.
When I showed up, I didn't wantto give you wise words of
eloquence or wisdom, but Idecided to preach to you Jesus
and him crucified, resurrectedfrom the dead, because I knew
that would be the thing tochange the world. What has
happened with a lot of theseideologies, Dave is that we have
substituted the gospel, orsubstituted them for the gospel

(45:44):
when it comes for looking foranswers for the world that we
live in that is a jungle that'sbroken. And what I believe as a
radical follower of Jesus is allof these ideologies are cheap
substitutes, if not toxicenemies of the house of God, and
they don't belong in the houseof God, because the gospel is

(46:05):
the center of everything. And sothat's where I'm pretty radical.
And now, if you read the blogs,you'll, you'll, you'll see me
articulate this, and I know thatthere are some people that are
going to disagree with me onthis, okay, but as for me in my
house, like I have made up mymind, like I'm all about the
Jesus ethic and the Jesus methodand anything that compromises

(46:31):
that I don't want to haveanything to do with it. And so I
articulated the ideology optionsthat are creeping their way into
our theology and our methodologythat I think are dangerous great
because they are not the gospel.

Dave Leake (46:47):
Yeah, and sometimes they're almost so what I think
is interesting about this,sometimes some of these
ideologies are talked about inways that almost make them seem
like they are the gospel, likethere, which is why it's
dangerous. They're directly apart of what Jesus did, and we
should. And a lot of thesethings are at least two groups

(47:11):
of people like they are ways tocreate positive change. And I
don't, I'll just preface beforewe get into this, I don't think
every single one of these thingsis evil, but when they're
elevated to a certain level,they become potentially
dangerous. They're not. Some ofthem are evil, right?

Jeff Leake (47:31):
Not. Most of them are not, but they're not the
gospel. That's the thing, right?
So we, we preach the gospel asthe way to bring change in the
world. There are other politicalparties and ideologies and
tribes and lobbyists and thatthat want to leverage these
other things not a problem,okay, in most cases, unless

(47:52):
they're evil, right? But we donot. We do not teach ideologies
like this. We teach the gospel.
Yeah, and the gospel is thecenter of everything, right? And
so because these things are notthe gospel, say the easiest
thing for us is to start withnumber one, nationalism, the
idea that America is the hope ofthe world, is a substitute for

(48:16):
the gospel. It's not America.
We're thankful for it. It's acountry that has many, many good
things about it. Has beenblessed by God. We want it to
continue to be blessed by God.
But it isn't the center of theworld. First one, he says it's
called nationalism, nationalism,and we think Christian
nationalism, because that tendsto go together. But any
nationalism, regardless of whatcountry you are, if you were to

(48:39):
elevate this is the center ofeverything. It's not it's the
person of Jesus Christ. It'swhat, what he's doing in the
world through his church. And soif we slap Christian on it, and
we make, you know, God inAmerica, the two things that are
the keys to world change, itisn't the it isn't the gospel,
right? And so therefore, again,nationalism, I have no problem

(49:04):
with and the second one isglobalism.

Dave Leake (49:07):
Which nationalism you have no problem with meaning
as a political

Jeff Leake (49:11):
ideology. Fine if you believe nationalism, like
every nation, has its boundariesand borders and functions as an
entity that should cooperatewith other nations on Earth.
Great. That's not a bad thing.
It's just not the gospel. It'snot it's a it's a fine way of
thinking about global politics,right? So there is a desire to

(49:33):
make nationalism evil. I don'tthink nationalism is evil and I
don't think globalism is evil. Ithink both of them are just
different approaches to how theworld can talk

Dave Leake (49:41):
about globalism in a second. But first I just want
to, because we're using reallycomplex terminology here again,
I just want to make sureeverybody's following where we
are. We're talking about sevendifferent types of worldviews,
perspectives or ideas that aresome of them are evil, but not
all of them are evil. They'rejust when they begin to
infiltrate. See The idea of thisas part of the gospel, or that

(50:03):
this is the mission of thechurch, or that this is why
Jesus came, or they get elevatedto this idea near salvation,
they can distort or pervert themission that God's called us.
Yeah. And so being very carefulto distinguish and differentiate
what is a outside idea that maybe good or bad nationalism or
globalism as good examplesversus what is a core part of

(50:26):
why Jesus came is essential whenit comes to what we tolerate,
what we preach about, how webuild bridges and relationships
with other believers or peoplethat call themselves believers.
Yeah, right. Okay, so

Jeff Leake (50:40):
let's so globalism and nationalism are the polar
opposites here, that often warwith each other, and those who
are globalists look down at thenationalists as if they're
fascists because they believe inboundaries and borders. Just
give fascist means. Fascistwould mean that they're going to
use government authority todominate everyone to bow before

(51:00):
their nation. Okay, great. Andglobalists go. Globalists
believe that it's almost like ahippie view of the world, in a
way, like it's like, you know,everybody should just get along.
There should be no nationalboundaries. We should all let
sort of a group of global elitestell us what to do, and we all
just sort of try to make ourway. I

Dave Leake (51:20):
ran all your stuff through chatgpt to filter and
make it simple. So I'll give youdefinition of globalism. It
advocates for a borderless,unified world, often aiming at a
man made utopia. It's a perfectone world, no governments.
Everybody shares. There'ssharing

Jeff Leake (51:38):
of resources and borders, and I kind of talk
about it. So nationalism, Ithink, is it tends to end up in
in the church more than werealize. Globalism is just, it
just feels like a pipe dream.
It's a little bit of a delusion.
It's what we want the world tobe, but it really never is, and

(51:59):
it has its own inherent dangers.
So neither, neither system ofgovernance is perfect.

Dave Leake (52:04):
And the danger of globalism, when you elevate it
too high, is it makes a man madesolution where Jesus, Jesus is
the only we're

Jeff Leake (52:11):
longing for, the the result that you said, everyone
gets along, and people aretreating each other, right?
That's the kingdom of God,right? According to the gospel.
It isn't a globalistic worldviewbased on the United Nations,
right? It's where

Dave Leake (52:25):
Jesus actually rules. Yes, when he rules, we
will have a global society, in

Jeff Leake (52:31):
a sense, until that happens, the globalistic vision
of Utopia is impossible, sure,right. Okay, let's go on. And
you talked, we get into deeperwaters Marxism and liberation
theology. Okay, so Marxism isthis worldview now that has
divided the world into oppressorand oppressed and created two
different tribes, victimized.
And it used to be economic. Nowit's also victimizer victim.

(52:52):
There we go. Yeah. Now it's alsoethnic and gender based, right?
And it has become a part of atheology called liberation
theology, where the idea ofbringing equality and justice in
the world does not come throughthe gospel, which makes everyone
equal at the foot of the crossand a part of the same family,
but it actually then requiresfor there to be Some global

(53:17):
cons, I shouldn't say globalconflict, conflict between the
haves and have nots in order toche to achieve equality, right?
It, it, by its very nature, is,is a failure, because it never
has worked anywhere. It's a it'sa false promise, and it and but
that's, that's one problem Ihave with it. The other problem

(53:38):
will have with it is it isn'tthe gospel, right? Because the
gospel doesn't separate peopleinto into into two groups. It
brings us together into onefamily. So Marxism does the
exact opposite right of what thegospel does

Dave Leake (53:53):
well, even even the idea, okay, I do think that as
an outflow of of the gospel andtheir, you know, upside down
kingdom, the you know, beingservants of all. What we do see
is an elevation of people thathave been marginalized. True.
That's all throughout thegospel. The

Jeff Leake (54:09):
Holy Spirit gives an elevation to sons and daughters,
to servants, slaves and free,male and female. So that's true.
The Gospel elevates everyone andunifies everyone. Marxism
separates everyone and tries todiminish one to elevate the
other. Yeah,

Dave Leake (54:28):
it's almost like the 00, sum type of thing, like you
have to take one down.

Jeff Leake (54:34):
It almost always ends in violence, right? In some
way, and then some type of

Dave Leake (54:39):
dictatorship. And if you just read through the book
of Acts people from everystratosphere of class and
different nations, and there'snot like, let's take them down
to this Robin Hood

Jeff Leake (54:49):
again. We agree with the utopian vision of globalism
and Marxism, but as amethodology, neither one will
get you there. Yeah, the Gospeltakes you there. Yeah. Or to the
outcome you're looking for

Dave Leake (55:01):
with Marxism. The danger is it perverts the idea
of elevation by also trying tofind people to take down.

Jeff Leake (55:08):
Yeah, and that's, and that's where it becomes
violent. It's

Dave Leake (55:12):
violent, but it's also just, it's divisive. And
it's, it's, it's not the sameSpirit that Jesus brought, yeah,
um, he never was seeking, like,power structures were not a part
of his thing.

Jeff Leake (55:23):
No, he was the opposite. He actually said, if
you're interested in powerstructures, you're off the page,
right? Because we aren't likethe Gentiles who lord it over
others. We you want to be greatin the kingdom, you got to be
the servant of everybody,

Dave Leake (55:35):
yeah, even the taxes, like, you know, or they
were like, should we pay taxesto Caesar? And he had them look
at the image on the coins. Givethe Caesar what Caesars give to
God? What's God's that's, that'san, actually, an affirmation of
power.

Jeff Leake (55:47):
And let's just say, just from the context of
history, if Jesus could havebeen Marxist, because Rome was
oppressing

Dave Leake (55:55):
the Jews and the Zealots were and it's now worse,
but they were

Jeff Leake (55:59):
pre Marxist right away? Yeah, they were looking
for violent solutions to thatinequity,

Dave Leake (56:05):
right? Okay, and Simon, one of the disciples, was
from that was hard, yeah, okay,let's keep going. Which

Jeff Leake (56:10):
means, if you're a Marxist, Jesus loves you and
wants you being on hisdiscipleship team. We're not
looking at you with any kind ofdisdain. If that's your
worldview, it's just that itit's not the

Dave Leake (56:19):
gospel, right? Yeah, it's not the gospel. And maybe a
slight tweak of that worldviewwould be more Christ, Christ
centered,

Jeff Leake (56:29):
slight, massive,

Dave Leake (56:32):
yeah, sorry, okay, my voice is going, I'm not sure
why. Okay, number four,capitalism and socialism. Yeah.

Jeff Leake (56:39):
Okay, so this is the economic systems that, again,
two sides battle over. G so Idon't have a problem with
capitalism and and I'm probablylean more capitalistic than
socialistic in my economicworldview, because I think
capitalism has probably improvedthe world. And if you look at
the last podcast we just did,one of the reasons why I think
there are the poor are gettingricher is because of the fact

(57:02):
that the free markets havehelped the world. However,
capitalism, without any checksand balances, tends to be very
cruel, and so I can see why somepeople would argue for more of a
socialistic approach. And I knowfriends who are from socialistic
countries and and they if theywould look at me and think,
capitalism, if you're acapitalist, you're crazy.
Socialism is better. What Iwould say is there's no perfect

(57:24):
economic system, but here's thedeal. Jesus didn't come
preaching economics. He camepreaching the kingdom, and I
think we have to stay on ourlane, right, right. So does the
gospel produce some aspects ofsocialism, yes. Does it produce
some aspects of capitalism? Yes.
So I think there's some kind ofa balance here. But for me, it's

(57:46):
a secondary issue, because it'snot the gospel. And elevating
this, this is not evil, right?
Neither one is evil. It's justthat. It's just not the gospel,
right?

Dave Leake (57:57):
And it's a competitive ideology, if it gets
elevated too high, yeah, whichis why it's on this list, right?
Okay, next one feminism, and youhave modern and

Jeff Leake (58:06):
secular. Well, feminism and Marxism are similar
in that it's oppressor andoppressed. It's men against
women. It's allies with women,allies with you know, men have
to be destroyed. The patriarch,or patriarchy, which is the
power structure, has to bedismantled in order for women to
thrive. It's it's that idea. Sothe Gospel says women should be

(58:31):
elevated. We're for women, butit doesn't say we're against
men. It says we're for women,we're for men, we're for
everyone. We believe everyonecan be elevated at the same
time. It's, it's, it's notdismantling anything the gospel
isn't dismantling patriarchy.
It's, it's teaching healthyfamily. It's teaching healthy
submission. It's teaching whatit is to serve one another.

Dave Leake (58:55):
It's teaching healthy masculinity and healthy
feminine Exactly,

Jeff Leake (58:59):
right? And so. So feminism, in its truest secular
form, is one of these divide andconquer strategies. And again, I
agree with a lot of the visionof feminism, of elevating women,
absolutely right. I don't agreewith the methodology.

Dave Leake (59:20):
I think that you'd said it great, but I'll just
reiterate, I think theeverything that that sort of
smacks of overthrowing societalnorms, you know, like this,
power structures, yeah, erasinggender roles, like, like,
blowing up stereotypes. It's notin some of those things aren't

(59:41):
even necessarily inherentlyevil, but when they become a
focus, especially when they'refocusing on the power structure
of like, let's take men down toelevate women, it's

Jeff Leake (59:51):
actually a different gospel. It is. It's not Jesus's
gospel. It's good news thatcomes from another source that
is ends up not being. So good,

Dave Leake (01:00:01):
right? And we both, by the way, are, you know, just
to be clear, here are totallyabout women in ministry.

Jeff Leake (01:00:08):
Absolutely, in fact, that's going to be one of our
next episodes. Yeah, we're goingto that's an issue we have never
talked about. So this

Dave Leake (01:00:14):
needs to be clear, because just because something
has good parts or sounds gooddoes not mean it actually is
good. That's where some of thesedeceiving like, it's like, close
to being on but it's, yeah,scary.

Jeff Leake (01:00:24):
And again, an important you are free to
disagree with me. Again, if I'myour pastor, I'm just telling
you my worldview. Dave and I aretogether here. It's, I'm just
telling you I'm a radical Jesusfollower, and I believe in the
gospel, and I'm not going toveer from that and anything that
isn't the gospel of Jesus, I'mnot going to go for and you
might say, I think that'sinadequate. I don't think that

(01:00:46):
addresses enough. Okay, we canagree to disagree, but for me,
it's the gospel and or nothinglike I'm a Paul guy. I'm going
to say I decided to and when itcomes to changing the world, I
don't want to know anythingamong you except Christ and Him
crucified. For me, that's the beall and end all. I'm staying in
that lane. I'm not going to veerfrom it.

Dave Leake (01:01:04):
And, yeah, we keep going in on this. But yeah, I
think the danger adding thingsin waters, what the what the
gospel is down, yep. So, okay,let's, let's again, not that the
outcomes aren't what we desire.
I think a lot of these outcomesare things we want. Meaning
elevation is the pathway,protection of people. It's just
the methodology is not great, orthe worldview. Critical Theory,

(01:01:25):
number six,

Jeff Leake (01:01:29):
critical theory.
This is one that very criticalrace theory. This would be
critical. Critical Theory is, isthe

Dave Leake (01:01:36):
base? Sure it becomes everything else.

Jeff Leake (01:01:39):
Yeah, right. So just a man a real quick. So if you
don't know what this is, youreally need to do some research
on it, because it is such a hugeinfluence on our society today.
I

Dave Leake (01:01:50):
think everybody feels what this is, because it's
the way society talks. But youprobably couldn't define it, and
part of that's the intention ofthose who created critical
theory is making it confusing to

Jeff Leake (01:02:01):
define. Yeah, so it's an attempt to change the
norms of society by redefiningwords and concepts and attacking
power structures through thatcreation of chaos, so that
another norm can emerge that isredefined by those that are

(01:02:22):
trying to influence a sort of are education process of society.
So

Dave Leake (01:02:27):
I'll give a different definition here. It's
a worldview that deconstructssocial structures and social
norms to challenge power andidentity. So typically, right
now, if it's a secular powerthing, talking about any type of
power structure. We talked aboutthe patriarchy or whatever. And

(01:02:47):
it's focusing on deconstruction,which has ultimately made its
way very much into the church.
That's the idea of a criticaltheory, and it is complex in
nature.

Jeff Leake (01:02:57):
This also needs a whole episode, but I'll just say
on the list of things, of theseseven, this one probably is the
most insidious,

Dave Leake (01:03:08):
totally, I think, I think this one is probably evil,

Jeff Leake (01:03:12):
yeah, so not, not every aspect of those of it, of
it is not every person that getsinvolved in this direction is,
but there's something very sowhen I say the word and I used
insidious rather than evil,because insidious is it has a
very sneaky way of bringing youto a place where all of the

(01:03:32):
sudden you think things that arenot aligned with the way you
used to think about the Bible,about Truth, about yourself, and
before you know it, you've beenoffered a lie that is going to
lead you down a path prettyevil. It is

Unknown (01:03:50):
neutral to be the way you're describing. So yeah,

Jeff Leake (01:03:53):
so there is, there is a book called cynical theory.
It's not written by a Christian,really good read that's written
by someone in the educationalworld that's very concerned
about the critical theory way ofapproaching things, and written
by a progressive, by the way,yeah, not a not a conservative
person, but they can see the howthis is sort of unwinding and

(01:04:17):
unraveling A lot of what hadbeen common understanding in
society, and it's not producinganything healthy.

Dave Leake (01:04:24):
Ultimately, just to be clear, we are not coming for
the throats of any of thedesired outcomes, typically that
no no protection of people thatare marginalized, or elevation
of those that are Yeah,

Jeff Leake (01:04:36):
but critical theory is not the gospel, and will try
to pervert the gospel. I agree.

Dave Leake (01:04:40):
Okay, last one, and we've talked about this a lot,
but you have individualism andself self

Jeff Leake (01:04:44):
expression. Yeah, this is the whole idea that the
world is what I feel, that itis, and everything begins and
ends with me and what I feel

Dave Leake (01:04:53):
about it, right, the belief that personal identity
and self expression are thehighest good, right, being true
to yourself is the most. Mostimportant thing, yeah, and we've
talked a lot about this, butit's not the gospel, because
Jesus calls us to die toourselves and

Jeff Leake (01:05:07):
find life, because you are not God, and he is, you
know, right? And so find

Dave Leake (01:05:11):
life in Jesus, not in self fulfillment, yep. So I
think that kind of wraps it up.
Yeah, a lot there.

Jeff Leake (01:05:16):
But so there are maybe just, I'm not promoting my
blog. I'm just pushing you backto the material that will maybe
be helpful to you. The last thelast two blog posts were one a
prayer to pray so that you canif you find yourself inner,
inwardly conflicted, of havingto deal with people and

(01:05:39):
ideologies that you don't agreewith how to get yourself to a
healthy place by praying throughthis prayer on a daily basis.
And then the last post that Iwas seven statements to change
the world, seven convictionsthat I carry that I think if
you'll read that last post, evenif you're a little messed up by
what you just heard us talkabout, the seven statements,

(01:06:00):
there are statements that Iwould want everyone to hear, and
so I'll just point you there sothat you understand, if I am
your pastor or as a pastor,voice in your life, I'm in no
way against you, even if youdisagree with me. I'm just
trying to navigate my waythrough and be as clear as I
possibly can be, because, youknow, I want to be I want to be

(01:06:21):
a statesman leader in mygeneration, and I want to create
a foundation for other leadersto to follow when it comes to
trying to find pathways forwardthrough all this polarization,
right? And I want to lead ahealthy church, and I want to
lead people to the real Jesusand true transformation. And I

(01:06:41):
am a crazy, radical follower ofJesus that believes in the
efficacy of the gospel as the asthe primary method to change the
world.

Dave Leake (01:06:50):
I just think, just one more thought to close, I
think this. The goal is not acall to arms, you know, come
against the seven ideologies orwhatever. I think the goal is,
is equip, equipping people thatare listening, to discern
properly, to guard yourself.
Because some of these thingsare, as you said, insidious.
They're hard to distinguish fromwhat the Bible says, Unless you

(01:07:13):
really dive in, and then you'relike, oh, that's kind of crazy.
We actually didn't even fullydive in to the degree that we
could have, or probably evenhave on some of our past
episodes. But there are keyplaces where the trail of what
the Bible says divergesradically from what some of
these different worldviews have.

(01:07:33):
We just need to be careful of orelse we can easily become more
of a person that's a follower ofwhat culture and the world says
yes, and what the Bible actuallysays and what God wants for us,

Jeff Leake (01:07:44):
yeah. And I'd love your feedback, if you want to
leave a comment, you know, inany form, after reading the
blog, after listening to thisepisode, we'd love to hear from
you. We also would love to getget your Likes on on YouTube and
in your reviews, five starreviews, like and subscribe,
yeah. But, but ultimately,again, if you have a different

(01:08:04):
point of view, you want to shareit, we'd love to hear from you.
This is a conversation. We don'twant it to be something where we
think we're the answers to allthings, but

Dave Leake (01:08:11):
absolutely and we're so glad again, that you joined
us. Think you already mentionedall the things that you can do.
We'd appreciate your help inspreading the word in any of
those ways. And so Hey, untilagain next time, we'll see you
soon. You.