December 19, 2024 • 51 mins
Ever wondered why there are so many different types of churches and Christian denominations?
In this episode, pastors Jeff Leake and Dave unpack the fascinating history behind the splintering of Christianity - and more importantly, how to find a church that is truly grounded in biblical truth.
Dive into the tensions and disputes that led to the formation of hundreds of denominations over the centuries. Discover the key theological tenets that define orthodox Christianity. And learn practical steps to identify a healthy, Spirit-filled church community.
Whether you're a lifelong churchgoer or someone searching for spiritual truth, this conversation will equip you to navigate the complex landscape of modern Christianity. Don't miss this insightful look at the roots of denominationalism and how to find your place in the one true Church.
LinkTree:
https://linktr.ee/AllisonParkLeadershipNetwork
Email:
Jeffl@allisonparkchurch.com
Davel@allisonparkchurch.com
Instagram:
@Jeffleake11
@Dave.Leake
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Have you ever wondered why there are so many different
(00:02):
types of churches, so manydifferent labels for Christians,
Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists,Catholics, Eastern, Orthodox?
It's a good question. The topicwe're gonna be talking about
today is, why are there so manydenominations, and, more
crucially, how do we know who'sright? If you want to learn more
about how you can not just picka church, but to find truth and
(00:22):
go ahead and tune in. Heyeverybody. Welcome to the
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we have culture creating
conversations. My name is Dave,
Jeff Leake (00:30):
and my name is Jeff, and we are glad that you are
joining us. We want to wish youa Merry Christmas, as this was
recorded just before theChristmas season, and we want to
say this is the end of seasonfour and we're getting ready to
go into season five. But no, no,you're wrong. It's into five,
end of five. And if you're Yeah,going into our sixth one, baby,
(00:51):
yeah, yeah. Started in November2019, and still going strong. So
if you have become a recentlistener, or this is your first
time, we're glad you've joinedus. Dave and our father and son
were also pastors at AllisonPark Church. Dave's at the North
Side campus, and I'm the leadpastor. And
Unknown (01:05):
you always watching on live stream, you can see our
Christmas decoration.
Jeff Leake (01:07):
There you go. How about that? And we got the
little we have, actually thelittle Yoda Christmas ball.
Unknown (01:14):
It's also doubles as Matt's office. So,
Jeff Leake (01:17):
yeah. So, and since you always do this pitch, if you
are what watching or listeningon YouTube, Spotify or Apple
podcast, if you can leave us alike or review, that would be
amazing, because it helps us getthe word out to other not just
Unknown (01:28):
a review. Give us a five star review. Five Star,
yeah, not a one star. No, no.
Scrooge is on here. Please be Imean, you can, but we appreciate
it. We love
Jeff Leake (01:37):
it when you comment on anything or especially
whenever you you like, becauseit helps us get the word out,
and we appreciate you. Allright. What are we talking about
today? Dave, on this finalepisode
Unknown (01:47):
of season five, not very Christmassy, but well,
maybe it is, I don't know. Todaywe're talking about the title is
where, where do denominationscome from? And how do we know
who's right?
Jeff Leake (01:57):
Yeah. And the reason why we're getting at this is
because this is actually one ofthe questions you have asked us
to address, because no one evertalks about this actually, like,
you know, we know there's abunch of them. Why are there a
bunch of them? If there's ifJesus is the founder, so to
speak, in a way, like he's theone that that we all follow, I
guess is a better way to say it.
Why are there so many splintergroups, and how? Well, how come
(02:19):
they have different ideas, andwhat happened over all these
1000s of years that we ended uphere, right? Because I'm not
sure that Jesus intended it likethis, that we would have all
these denominations. So how dowe end up in this space,
Unknown (02:33):
right? Well, and usually, if somebody says, like,
Are you religious? And it mightsay, you would say I'm Catholic,
or I'm Lutheran, or, you know,probably not just I'm Christian.
Jeff Leake (02:41):
Well, they might say I used to go to church, but I
don't believe in organizedreligion anymore. I'm now
spiritual, yeah? Actually, someof the reason why people might
say that is because of thisparticular question, because
they're confused about whichchurch to belong to and why the
conflicts and all that goodstuff, yeah? So, so just
recently, Dave, I think thisbrings attention to the surface.
So I have been to Israel threetimes. I've led, led groups
(03:05):
there a couple of times. And I'mdoing a series right now at
Allison Park Church called Don'tsqueeze the frog, which is one
of the images that we use forthe four topics. So the idea is,
a picture is worth 1000 words.
So we're looking at a culturalimage, and then we're drawing a
moral principle out of thatidea. And the second week of the
series, I used a symbol that wefind in Jerusalem at the Church
(03:31):
of the Holy Sepulcher called theimmovable ladder. So let's give
you that. If you're watching onYouTube, you'll be able to see
this. This is the picture of theimmovable ladder. So Church of
the Holy Sepulcher built around335 ad, so 300 years after Jesus
resurrection, sepulcher meanstomb. So, so best guess,
researched guess is that this iswhere Jesus tomb was, which is
(03:55):
right next to the goal area ofGolgotha, where he was
crucified, and so in 313 adConstantine became the emperor
of Rome. He made Christian.
Christianity now one of thelegalized religions of his
empire, because his mama was astrong Christian. His mom went
to Jerusalem, researched to thebest of her ability, where Jesus
(04:18):
would have died and rose fromthe grave, and they built a
church there. Over time, it gotbigger and bigger, and it has
been there ever since. There aresix denominations that share
this space with great tension.
So Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic,Egyptian, I think, is one of
them, Armenian, and I can'tremember the fifth. They all
share the worship space, andthey have some degree of tension
(04:42):
over who gets to use which spacewhen. And the tension had grown
by the year 1728, somebody hadcleaned the window, left the
ladder outside, no one tookresponsibility for it, and so it
just stayed there, and it hasstayed there since 17. Eight,
296 years, this ladder has beenoutside because of the tension
(05:02):
that exists between thesedenominations. What are they
calling now the holy ladder.
It's the immovable ladder,removable ladder, yeah. And it's
a symbol of the tension thatexists in the spot, which is
really ironic, because you wouldthink at the place where Jesus
rose from the dead, you know,like Jesus said you'll know that
they're Christians because theyhave loved one for one another.
(05:23):
And on the place where Jesusrose from the dead and was
crucified, you have a symbol ofChristians who can't get along
with each other. Most pettything possibly bad. Yeah. And so
the Ottoman Empire, who was inpower in the 1700s over
Jerusalem, got so tired of theinfighting that they declared
something called the status quo,which means no one can do
anything in the building withoutthe permission of the other five
(05:45):
denominations. It's sort of likesix, six, I'm sorry. It's like,
it's like when you were little,and I had five kids, and I would
come into the room when you werefighting, and everybody had to
sit and be quiet because,because so non Christian Ottoman
Empire had to make a rule statusquo to keep the Christian
denominations from fighting eachother. So this is sort of a
(06:05):
tragedy, right? It's a shame.
It's not the way Christianity issupposed to be. Jesus said not
they'll know you're Christiansby the great cathedrals you'll
build on holy sites, but by theway you treat each other. Yeah.
And so denominationalism hasoftentimes become a thing
because one group splintered offfrom another over doctoral
disputes or territory ordivorces, like what happened
(06:28):
with the Anglican Church and theBaptist who separated from them.
Unknown (06:34):
So whether the Holy Spirit is under Jesus or he's on
the same level to the
Jeff Leake (06:40):
Father, doctrinal problems, other kinds of
tensions. So almost always, youwould say denominations
splintered because of disputes.
Yeah, so in some reason we wouldsay we have denominations
because Christians, overcenturies, have disputed with
each other. Yeah, that's
Unknown (06:55):
a pretty sturdy ladder, by the way. It's gotta keep
thinking about, yeah, like, wow,that thing has been there for
how many years now?
Jeff Leake (07:00):
Well, I'm sure that it's symbolic now, and they
probably, because of its fame,make sure that it doesn't
deteriorate,
Unknown (07:07):
but they're touching it then, yeah?
Jeff Leake (07:09):
So I don't know, yeah, I don't know. I think they
don't move it now, because it'sbeen there so long, it's become
historical, right? It's not thatit's a value, it's just that now
it's a historical article.
Unknown (07:22):
I'm like, wow, that thing is lasting through because
it's leaned up against the wall.
Yeah, storms and gusts. Well,you
Jeff Leake (07:27):
can see the the places in the wall where it's
carved out, where it leans somuch that it actually created a
space on the rock. That's nuts.
Unknown (07:36):
That's they just built the railing around it, yeah,
Jeff Leake (07:39):
to protect anyone from touching it. Probably, Oh,
got it, yeah. I mean, this is,this is the most unusual site,
too. When you go in there, thereare, there's a long line to go
and kiss the rock, yeah, wherethey believe the blood of Jesus
dripped, right? No one knowsexactly was that rock. I It's
too unsanitary for me. I wasn'tgoing to do that. And, like, I'm
(08:00):
not exactly sure what you gainout of kissing it, right? So,
and then there's a place whereyou can go through this long
hour and a half line to find theentrance to the tomb. Okay?
There's another place inJerusalem, by the way, which is
called the Garden Tomb, which iscreated by contemporary
Christian organizations. And itfeels a lot like you would
expect the tomb to feel. Butmost scholars believe it's not
(08:21):
the accurate location forJesus's resurrection. Probably
the Church of the Holy Sepulcheris the spot. But back to the
topic, disputes, causedivisions, which cause
denominations? That's the simplearticulation of it. Now 2000
years later, remember, we'reeight years away from the 2000
year anniversary of theresurrection of Jesus and the
(08:43):
birth of the church. So over2000 years we have hundreds of
denominations because ofhundreds of disputes that have
been created over a long periodof time. And so it's not pretty,
it's not it's not what I wouldlike it to be, but it is the
case. And so now many of usbelong to a recent denomination,
(09:06):
like Allison parks, a part ofthe Assemblies of God, which is
an organization that started in1914 so it's, it's a very recent
one. A lot of people mightbelong to a non denominational
church. Doesn't have anydenomination at all it, but it
sort of functions unto itselfwith their own little relational
environment, not necessarilybelonging to any
institutionalized place. So whodo? How do what's, what's the
(09:30):
title again? How do we get allthese denominations come from?
And how do we know who's right?
Yeah, okay, let's talk about thehow do we know who's right part.
Because I think that's reallyinteresting in a way, so I don't
identify personally, like, Okay,I'm a third generation
Assemblies of God guy. My familycame into the Assemblies of God
through my grandparents and thenmy parents, and so your fourth
(09:53):
gen Dave. So somewhere on yourbody there should be an A. G all
the gospel tattooed in a way sobut my primary identification is
not with the assignments of God,it's with the early church. So
when I think about the church, Idon't think about the
assignments of God. I thinkabout the book of Acts. I think
about I want to go back to theraw origins like I want to read
(10:16):
the Bible, and I want to say Iwant to be as much like that.
I'm not going back to the fourthcentury or the 17th century, or
a lot of people go back to theReformation the 15th century, or
the revival movements in Americaor the Azusa Street Revival in
the early nineteens. I'm goingback to Acts. And I'm saying I
belong to the Assemblies of God,functionally, but my theological
(10:39):
and emotional attachment is tothe early church that was
started when the Holy Spirit waspoured out. And that's my
measurement, is that now out ofthat we come up with doctrinal
statements, what we believe andwhat we practice and how we
function, which then ultimatelytells you which denominational
tribe you probably fit in with.
(11:01):
But for me, that's where i i goback to.
Unknown (11:04):
So you mean, you simplified, let's get into the
nuance, because you simplifiedso much that it's like you
could, I mean, we're at 11minutes of this podcast, like,
that's it.
Jeff Leake (11:16):
Yeah, that's the frame of it. There's a lot of
gaps to fill in. But for me, Imean, it is true. Disputes
started denominations, yeah, nodoubt. And the early church is
the be all and end all, yeah.
And it doesn't answer who'sright, because
Unknown (11:30):
the early church is no longer around when we left them,
we left them 2000 years in thepast, yeah, you know. So we
Jeff Leake (11:37):
would say which denomination is the truest to
the early church would be, wouldbe the way I'd measure it. And
how do we become more like thatso, but I mean, there's a lot of
history we didn't cover. Wecould, we could track through
the disputes, if you want, andwhere the splinters began.
Because one thing that you'llhear this is something I've
noticed. Dave, I don't know ifyou picked this up, because
(11:59):
you're not on social media. ButI'll say, first of all, over the
last couple years, I have feltmore and more an affinity with
my brothers and sisters inChrist. I guess you'd say in the
Roman Catholic Church, like Iunderstand, there's so much that
we have in common. When we didthis episode a couple of years
(12:19):
back on Catholics, cults andChristians. We tried to
distinguish between what doCatholics believe, and what do
we believe, and what are thedifferences? And if you did
listen to that episode andyou're looking for that
particular slant, that would beprobably one to go back to. And
what we were saying this liketwo years ago, we did that one,
yeah, but Roman Catholics havetaken to social media, and
(12:41):
there's a lot of voices outthere now that are saying, Why,
why you should be Catholic?
Yeah, there are. Yeah there are.
And which, I don't begrudge thatat all, it's a lot of the high
church
Unknown (12:51):
denominations.
Actually. It's not justCatholics, but I think they're
leading and leading the push.
But it's, I feel like it'sloose.
Jeff Leake (12:56):
That was a space for the longest time. You would
really rarely see the highchurch voices, but I've actually
seen some tick tock dance videosby priests and things that are
going on where it's actually funin a way. It's like making the
Catholic Church or Anglicanchurch or whatever, more
accessible. Well,
Unknown (13:15):
it's, it's, it's saying, okay, so they're
positioned very well on thependulum swing of there was a
swing. Let's feel less and lesschurchy. Like, yeah, let's get
away from your your grandma.
We're
Jeff Leake (13:29):
already less churchy. They're trying to move
in that direction, to becomemore accessible. Don't
Unknown (13:34):
you think, yeah, yeah, no, but, but I'm saying, I'm
saying with just the appetite ofculture, yeah, people are.
People are like, well, I don'tneed to just be like everybody
else, like, if you're, if you'relooking for spirituality, there
is something appealing aboutgoing to somebody who's wearing
a big hat and a collar and arobe, because it's like, okay,
at least they're fully there,yeah? As opposed to like, ah,
(13:56):
like, I wear jeans and a youknow what? I mean, yeah, we have
haze. Like, there's not that. Imean, we do that and not, not
that. I'm against that, but Ithink there's something that
attracts people to be like, Oh,this is like the, this is like a
they never stopped being thisreligious, not that religious
is, I mean, the directory term.
Jeff Leake (14:14):
So the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox
Church are the oldestdenominations, yeah, what you
will hear from Roman Catholicson social media is that they're
the original that it that Jesusstarted one church, and it was
the Catholic Church founded onPeter as the first pope, and
(14:35):
that it's always been theCatholic Church, and any
Splinter has been away from theCatholic Church, that's actually
not completely historicallyaccurate, right? So at first,
when Christianity became legal,like 313 it was legal to be a
Christian. 380 ad Christianitybecame the recommended or state
(14:56):
religion of the Roman Empire. Inthe early stages, there. Was no
official, institutionalizedchurch. There was a structure in
place. And actually what therewas is there were, there was a
five leaders that were calledthe Five patriars, patriarchs,
another word for Pope. Sobasically, there were five popes
that operated like a committee.
One was in Rome, one was inAntioch one was in
(15:18):
Constantinople, one was inJerusalem, and one was in
Alexandria. And they were like aoverseeing committee of all the
churches that had beenestablished and planted the
local churches. And they woulddecide on governing principles
for the raw early movement ofthe legalized Church, the in
that they had church councilslike the Council of Nicaea,
where they decided on theofficial canon of the Bible, or
(15:40):
there was a council in Laodiceawhere they made policies about
how priests should function andhow local churches should
operate. Okay, but it was allone team of five leaders that
were operating without really alabel, because it was all
Christianity like they theydidn't need to name it Catholic
(16:00):
or Orthodox, because there wasonly one. It was just the
Christian church. Now Catholicactually means universal, so
technically, this was theuniversal church in in that
sense a Catholic church, becauseit was, it was, it encompassed
everything, but it wasn't whatwe think of as the Roman
Catholic Church, because itwasn't until 1044 when there was
(16:22):
a split between the four Easternpatriarchs and the one Roman
patriarch Rome becameinfluential in Europe, and the
Roman Catholic Church splinteredfrom those other four, and the
other four became leaders inwhat we now think of Eastern
Orthodox and they were the twoprimary so for the first 1000
years, it was basically onechurch, five patriarchs. Then it
(16:45):
became a Roman version and anEastern version, Eastern
Orthodox. And then about 500years later, there was something
called the Reformation, whereLuther began to question the
practices, especially the RomanCatholic Church, and he split.
He actually, Luther did not wantto leave the Catholic Church. He
was a Catholic priest, but hewas kicked out of it, and
(17:09):
therefore formed a brand newmovement based on reformation
theology, which takes us back tosome original ideas in the New
Testament. And from there, youget the Lutheran church. So now
we basically have three groupsthat that have formed, and then
out of reformation, we getothers, right? Eventually we get
(17:30):
the Anglican Church, whichbasically is what happens in
Great Britain, because the kingwants a divorce and remarriage
that the Pope won't give him.
And so he's sort of their statereligion. He forms his own
church to just fit his he's thehead of the church, actually,
yes, I think so. To this day,he's like, I'm done with you
Catholic Church. I'm going to domy own thing. That doesn't mean
(17:51):
Anglican Episcopal is a badchurch. Actually, it's become a
very healthy church all over theworld, but that's where it
begins to get its founding outof the Episcopal church comes in
the 1700s some really intensespiritual desire that is led by
John Leslie, which he starts theMethodist Church. So Methodists
(18:12):
were actually Anglicans thatwere more intense in their
spirituality. Presbyterians kindof came out of that too. Same
kind of way the Baptist splitoff of the Anglican Church
because they want to separatefrom this state religion that
was going on in Great Britain.
And so you can see splintergroups that have happened over
time. Then if you get to the1900s you have the Pentecostal
revival that happens. And youhave a bunch of Pentecostal
(18:35):
movements that start theAssemblies of God, the church of
God, the church of God, andChrist the four square actually,
in after Pentecost in the days,in the early days of the
westward expansion across theUnited States. Of course, the
United States madedenominationalism multiply. So
1000s, I shouldn't say 1000s,hundreds of splinter groups
(18:57):
formed over theologicaldisputes. So you have oneness
theology, which becomes its ownPentecostal version, and you
have the there was onedenomination called the Holy
Spirit baptized in firemovement, which believed that
when you baptize people, you hadto say that they were baptized
in the fire of the Holy Spirit.
(19:20):
Like little now disputes becamereasons for denominational
separation. Well, they were evenfrom the beginning, though,
yeah, that's true. I mean, otherthan typically, they the raw,
early, early, several 100 yearchurch just said, That's not
Christianity, and they fadedaway. But Catholic
Unknown (19:37):
and Orthodox split over the mean, one of the major
reasons was the so the father,sorry, the father is at the top
of the hierarchy, and then theSon and Holy Spirit are under
but orthodox said it's like thefrom the Father precedes the Son
and Holy Spirit. And Catholicsaid, from the Father is the
(19:58):
son, then from the Son is the.
Holy Spirit. And that was, like,the, should the Holy Spirit be
ranked lowest, or should he beon T like, I think, I think a
lot of it was actually moregeopolitical,
Jeff Leake (20:09):
yeah, well, it was power. Oh, absolutely stated
reason, the reason why Romesplit from the other four was
because of Rome had become themost powerful branch and most
influential in Europe. So, bythe way, there's a, there's a
great book that if you'reinterested in those five
patriarchs and what happens inthe years 300 to 1000 it's
called lost to the west. It'swritten by a guy named Lars
(20:32):
brown worth and it will give youthe details on some of this
historical stuff if you'reinterested in
Unknown (20:38):
that. Yeah, I was gonna look that up. Lost to the west.
Yeah.
Jeff Leake (20:41):
So I guess now the question Dave is, because we
could go into various doctrinalsplinterings that have happened,
I'm not sure that's going to behelpful for anybody. Sure. Our
goal here was to say, where didit all come from? And now, how
do we know who's right? Yeah, isthe second part of this. But I
guess there's kind of a thirdquestion is, what do we do with
(21:02):
all this? Like, if you're afollower of Jesus and there are
all these denominations, andwe're supposed to be loving each
other, like, Okay, we don't wantto be holy ladder. Or, excuse
me, immovable ladder people whoare constantly because for a
long time, you didn't go to achurch unless it fit your tribe
that you grew up with, like, ifyou moved to Pittsburgh and you
(21:23):
were now new to the area and youwere Presbyterian, the only
thought was to find aPresbyterian Church, right? Or,
if you were Catholic, you wentto a Catholic church. I don't
think that's the thing anymore.
I think people now maybe this isgood and bad. People show up in
a church not knowing what theChurch believes. They just want.
They want a church that makesthem feel a certain way. Well, a
Catholic church, you know,you're getting, yeah, yeah, it's
(21:43):
true.
Unknown (21:45):
And maybe some of the high church denominations, I
think some of the like the olderones, you're still looking for
that. But I think largely incontemporary churches, of any
whether it's Baptist or product,you know, sorry, Pentecostal or
whatever it might be. I do thinkyou sort of walk into like, Oh,
let's see what this is.
Jeff Leake (22:04):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I like the pastors, themusic, good kind of thing. I
actually think it's probably notgood that people don't know what
they believe and what thatchurch believes, and that
they're matching something thatthey that they actually agree
with. It takes probably a yearor so to you like, oh, you
believe that? Like, I didn'tknow you feel like that, yeah,
well, if I want to stay hereanymore, right? So that's part
of, I think the, you know, theway things have changed in 2024
(22:28):
well, it
Unknown (22:30):
also like, so you have some, okay, the scenario you're
talking about, thepresupposition is a seasoned
Christian with a set theologymove somewhere, and should know
what the pastor believes. Oftenpeople are like, I don't even
know what I believe, yeah.
Jeff Leake (22:46):
Well, you should probably at least go on the
website to read their statement.
Yeah. But
Unknown (22:50):
how would you know?
This is the question. How do youknow who's right? So it's like,
within like, where do weunderstand theology from, and
what like, All right, well, let
Jeff Leake (22:59):
me, let me, since I've talked for a lot of this,
how do we know it's right? Well,let
Unknown (23:02):
me quickly, just by the way, say that loss of the West
is included in Spotify Premium.
Okay, you can get it for free,yeah? Oh, nice, yeah. I mean,
like so Spotify does audiobooks. Now, if you're the
primary account holder, yeah,you
Jeff Leake (23:14):
can listen to audio books on there, which is nice.
Just a little preparation. Youhave to like history to like
this book. So it's going to be,it's going to wade through some
things, but if you stick withit, you'll learn a lot. Yeah.
Okay, so how do we how do weknow it's right, Dave, what,
what? Which denomination is theright one to belong to? How do I
know I'm in the right church?
What do I do with the fact thereare all these Christian
(23:34):
denominations that are outthere? Is there a way that we
can make peace with each other?
Do we ever cooperate onanything. I mean, these are
questions. I think that are goodquestions. So where do I start?
How do we know who's right?
Unknown (23:48):
Well, I think it's, it's easier to start with
shaving off the sides thatyou're like, Well, we know this
isn't right. You know there areso there are major, major, major
denominational splits right nowover Christian sexuality, just
as a really easy example, wherethe authority of the Bible is
being challenged or it'sreinterpreted, even though, I
(24:10):
mean, it's it so okay, how do weknow who's right? Well, there
are core tenets of the faiththat we would call dogmas that
every Orthodox Church shouldhold to orthodox means every,
every main line, well,
Jeff Leake (24:28):
even that word is difficult, every, every church
that's true to the Scripture,that's
Unknown (24:33):
true to the Scripture and it's true to Jesus, yeah,
should believe some basic So,for example, the Trinity, the
fall of man, the authority theScriptures that Jesus is the
actual son. Let's
Jeff Leake (24:43):
just start with the one you mentioned, uh huh. So
first, yeah, we believe in theauthority of the Bible, yeah.
Okay, go ahead. We believe thatthe Bible is the basis for what
we believe and what we practice.
Yep, yep. So a church that doesnot believe in the authority of
the Bible. Bible would not bethe place you'd want to
Unknown (25:02):
stay. Alright, you need to redefine what authority of
the Bible means. You do it okay.
So the Bible is the divinelyinspired Word of God that has no
errors. It is it is a it isperfect, and it is authoritative
for our life. And I guess theother part of this should be
that the Bible is meant to beunderstood from the intended
(25:24):
meaning of the authors. So it's,it is, it is divine. Every word
of it's divinely inspired byGod. It has total authority. And
we should try to understand itas the authors meant to be,
because the where the Biblestops being, the authority is,
what does it mean to me?
Jeff Leake (25:43):
Okay, so we believe, so dig
Unknown (25:46):
on to that. What does it mean to me? Because, yeah, go
ahead. Go ahead. Okay, so, so,because the Bible does a
personal meaning, I just thinkthat if we skim that's going to
be we're going to be lost. Doesa personal meaning to me. But
what did the Apostle Paul meanwhen he wrote Romans chapter
one, for example, it's in hisended meeting his intended
(26:07):
meaning to the church in Romethat he was writing to right, to
the hearers, to the readers,whatever.
Jeff Leake (26:14):
So it's, it's making the truth objectified. Yeah,
Unknown (26:17):
yeah. Oh, this is what they because otherwise you're
taking out of context. Even now,if you clip up my voice and you
piece words I said together,you're taking what I said legit
out of context, because that'snot my intended meaning. It's
your intended meaning using mywords, yes. So the intended
meaning is what we're what we'researching for. Actually, the
whole practice of this is calledhermeneutics, the study of the
(26:38):
principles for interpreting theBible correctly so any, any
church believes that the Bibleis the the inspired,
authoritative word for God, Wordof God to us, and we want to
take that wholesale andinterpret it to the best of our
ability. So
Jeff Leake (26:51):
let's look at that historically. Yeah, the very
first council that they couldhold after the church became a
legal possibility was in 325,where they determined, and I
guess you would say where theyfinally came above ground and
said emphatically, these are thebooks of the Bible that we see
(27:13):
as authoritative, correct forour lives and the and that was
important, because more than thepatriarchs and popes, the the
the written word was thepreeminent guide for life. Now,
eventually, over time, theCatholic Church has elevated the
Pope's voice to be equal withthe Bible. We would say the
(27:37):
Bible supersedes any other humanauthority, because it's God
breathed by the power Person ofthe Holy Spirit. So we aren't
looking to any other humanleader currently to set the
standard for us, because theword of God is the final
standard. But then there areother churches that don't follow
the Pope or the Bible. They'reprobably more following the
cultural flow, and they'retaking certain parts of the
(27:59):
Bible to make it fit what theirworld they're
Unknown (28:01):
following values of justice. They're falling. They
would take principles out of theBible, and where the Bible seems
to disagree with theirprinciples, they're like, well,
that's outdated, or they mightnot have meant that anyway. Or,
you know, we're gonna, we're notgonna allow the Bible to be that
exclusive to people.
Jeff Leake (28:19):
Yeah. So it's an evolving theology, rather than a
rooted one in in in thescriptures and in history. I
would say that's one of thepotential dangers with
Catholicism as well, is thatit's an evolving theology well,
because the pope can change it,and he kind of has, and he is
right currently. Yeah, right.
Okay, so first is, it is theauthority of the Bible. That's
number one, right? What elsewould be key factors for us?
(28:41):
Jesus is the Son of God, yeah.
Okay, there you go. Withoutthat, you have nothing really,
yeah, right, absolutely,literally, physically died on
the cross, that He was buried inthe ground and that he
literally, physically rose fromthe dead. Yep, there are a lot
of, there are a lot ofdenominations that don't believe
that, yeah, so they believe thatwas figurative or
(29:03):
spiritualistic, yeah, notphysical, right,
Unknown (29:06):
right? Yeah, yeah. And that, I mean it there. It's
explicit in Scripture. If Christdidn't really race from the
dead, I mean, Paul has whole,
Jeff Leake (29:14):
then we're just making it all Exactly. What
point is there built on theresurrection?
Unknown (29:18):
Yeah? Um, okay, then, then sin, you know, the the fall
of man into sin and his need forsalvation is a dogma. Man
Jeff Leake (29:26):
is not basically good and getting better. We're,
we're, we're evil, and need tobe saved. Yeah? Salvation of
man's next one, I would say. Andwe're saved not by our own good
works, but by putting our trustin what Jesus Christ did on the
cross. Yeah, I'm using editorsnow. We're getting to into
reference Luthers, reformationalthinking, right? Sure, solely.
Sola scriptura, only the Bibleis the authority, right, right?
(29:46):
You know, sola Fauci, which isonly by faith in Christ can I be
saved, right? Sola Gracia, whichmeans only by the grace of God
can I be saved. So. So there arefive of these principles that
came out of the Reformation thatbrought. Biblical foundational
ideas that had been lost overthese hundreds of years prior,
that we would definitely fallwithin that framework of that
(30:09):
reformational thought. We
Unknown (30:12):
would fall under that but I would argue that it's
pretty clear that those areprinciples that if you're
reading the Bible from theperspective of what the author
intended. They're there. They'rethere. Yeah, they're so they're
apparent principles that Lutherbrought to the surface, but
they've been there all the time.
So, so what happened, no,they're not new theology, yeah,
part of the splintering was youhave this historical church that
(30:33):
has like, 1000, not 1000s, buthundreds. You know, I guess,
over, over, over a millennia ofhistory of he lost its way. It's
it's culture, it's leadership.
And many people were used by Godpowerfully, and they were moved
to the spirit all throughoutthose but they there had been an
(30:54):
elevation of church leadershipand hierarchy and tradition over
scripture, sometimes in directcontradiction, overriding what
Scripture actually said.
Jeff Leake (31:04):
So some of the denominations were formed not
just out of dispute, but out ofa call back to the source
concepts. Yeah, Christianity isexactly I would say. The Azusa
Street revivals in the early1900s were that they were a call
back to the working of the HolySpirit and the demonstration of
God's supernatural power, whichhad also been sort of lost from
(31:25):
the church's experience. And thereason why denominations were
formed like Church of God inChrist, Assemblies of God
Foursquare wasn't because theyset out to form denominations.
As much as that they were kickedout of their pre existing
denominations because they werepracticing biblical, Holy Spirit
oriented activities. Soorganizations were formed
because these folks had no placeto belong, right?
Unknown (31:47):
By the way, I am, I am rusty in my church history here,
so I might say somethingignorant, but if we're talking
about dogma, the Nicene Creedwould probably be a good place
to start, right? So
Jeff Leake (32:01):
read it for us.
Dave, okay, this is, this is oneof these under so we're not a
high church movement. We're morein the informal space. But the
Nicene Creed, which was an oldhistoric creed, sort of
summarizes, yeah, okay. What isChristianity?
Unknown (32:20):
Okay, so here's the Nicene Creed. I believe this is
it, at least. This is off of theChristian reformed church's
website. All right. We believein one God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, ofall things visible and
invisible, and in one Lord,Jesus, Christ, the only son of
God, begotten from the Fatherbefore all ages, God from God,
(32:40):
Light from Light, true God fromtrue God begotten, not made of
the same essence as the Father.
Through Him, all things weremade for us and for our
salvation. He came down fromheaven. He became incarnate by
the Holy Spirit and the VirginMary, and was made human. He was
crucified for us under PontiusPilate. He suffered and was
buried the third day, he roseagain, according to the
(33:01):
Scriptures, he ascended toheaven and is seated at the
right hand of the Father. Hewill come again with glory to
judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end. Andwe believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life. Heproceeds from the Father and the
Son, and with the Father and theSon is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke to the prophets. Andthen here it goes into the
(33:23):
Catholic part of it. But webelieve in one holy, catholic
and apostolic Church. Catholic
Jeff Leake (33:28):
meaning not what you think of as Roman Catholic, but
universal
Unknown (33:32):
right. We affirm one Baptism for the begin this of
sins. We look forward to theresurrection of the dead into
the world and to life in theworld to come, amen. But you
know, the one part of I wouldsay we maybe didn't cover in our
dogma survey, is the hope ofJesus coming back, that one day
he'll come back and, you know,judge every every person living
in so
Jeff Leake (33:52):
this creed for centuries was read in almost
every church service as the coreskeleton of doctrine that those
who are part of the Christianfaith agreed with and stood for,
and people who come back andread this creed now we would say
those who align with this creedwould have the skeleton, the
backbone of what Christianitytruly is. Yes. So we would be we
(34:16):
would absolutely whole harm theNicene Creed with some of those
caveats of what the wordCatholic means, right, right, so
and so, knowing what you believethat way we sing that song. Is
that the Nicene Creed? I believein God our Father. I believe in
Christ, his son. Is that theNicene creed that we sing? I
(34:38):
think it's based off of it,yeah, okay,
Unknown (34:40):
but I don't think it is the Creed itself. Yeah, I think
that's, I think that's, that'sthe that based off the doxology,
praise the father, praise theson, praise the spirit, three
and one,
Jeff Leake (34:53):
anyway, regardless.
I think, I think what we're,what we're getting around to, is
that the early church is the beall and end all.
Unknown (35:00):
That? Well, the Bible is the be all and end all. That
describes the function ofliterature. Yeah? Exactly,
exactly.
Jeff Leake (35:06):
Who declares the a physical, resurrected Jesus, who
is the hope of the world. Whatdo you I don't understand, we're
up reading here. No, I'm notreading. Oh yeah. I'm just
saying stuff. Okay,
Unknown (35:20):
I'm just saying stuff, yeah, it's a good caption for
our podcast. Just saying stuff.
Okay, so, so how do we knowwho's right? Well, first of all
that somebody would affirm theessential tenets of the faith,
the dogmas, the Nicene Creed,the things that everybody within
the one true church wouldbelieve that's that's the first
(35:41):
part that I would say. How do weknow who's right? Beyond that, I
think you've been hitting onthis a lot, but I think other
other tests, litmus tests, wouldbe, Does, does the what does,
what happens in the churchreflect the workings of the
early church?
Jeff Leake (35:59):
Yeah, right. Does the activity of the book back
show up in your local setting?
So, for example,
Unknown (36:06):
the great, great, great commission you know, that go
into all the world and makedisciples of all nations,
baptize them, and then fathersand the Holy Spirit and teaching
them. They all that I'vecommanded you. So, you know, go
and make disciples. So winningthe lost, making disciples that
make other disciples. That is apraying for the sick, yeah,
(36:26):
right, believing
Jeff Leake (36:27):
for the Holy Spirit to be poured out, helping the
poor, doing the things that are
Unknown (36:31):
even having healthy, healthy community that cares for
each other, studying the Wordtogether, you know, having a
high value for the word. So Ithink that there are, could I
say it's not? I think that therecould be a lot of churches
within a lot of denominationsthat are healthy and that are
pursuing things of the book ofActs. I don't, I don't know that
(36:52):
there's
Jeff Leake (36:52):
because, and in that sense, we do believe in the Holy
Catholic Church. Here's what Imean. It's the big C church.
It's the church that that is theoverarching umbrella, because
ultimately, no denomination isthe be all and end all. No,
right, we're all a part of alarger movement of those who are
trying to follow Jesus. And eventhough we might have differences
of opinion with people onvarious doctrinal ideas or
(37:14):
worship styles or whatever, youknow, the the dispute or or or
or difference would be, we stillbelong to the same Jesus. We
still are a part of the samechurch of Jesus Christ overall.
And we should be working tobuild bridges and to join arms
with other people of differentnominations, so that we close
the gap of the disputes and thedivisions that have existed as
(37:37):
long as they they're they're inthe zone of what we would call
historic, establishedChristianity.
Unknown (37:45):
Yeah, they believe that the Orthodox Church, right?
Orthodox Christianity, or it's
Jeff Leake (37:49):
not Greek Orthodox, it's not Eastern Orthodox
Church. But yes, they would beorthodox to the Christian faith.
Yeah. So
Unknown (37:57):
what? How do we interact with those that maybe
have the label of Christian, andthey attend a church that falls
outside of that, yeah,
Jeff Leake (38:06):
so that's a good question. I think, I think
that's a tough one. So I thinkthere's some general things that
we do in the world that we canwork with anybody on, regardless
of who you are, right? So if wewant to work for peace in a
situation, if we're going tohelp the poor, if so, I'm a part
of an organization called multifaith neighbors network, where
(38:27):
we try to get evangelicalpastors, rabbis and Imams
together to work for the good ofthe local community. And when
Afghan Afghan refugees movedinto Pittsburgh, mosques,
synagogues and churches worktogether to help raise money and
provide clothing for thesepeople who move into our city to
benefit. So I think in thesegeneral do good circumstances.
(38:50):
You can work with anybody. Sosomeone who's not a Christian,
let's say a Jehovah's Witnessthat we would call cult or
Mormon, that may be completelydifferent from Christianity, and
they want to work together toserve the poor or make peace up.
I think you can work withanybody, those that you're going
to closely fellowship with, thatyou're going to join arms with,
that you're going to be yokedtogether with. I think you have
(39:12):
to be in agreement, at least onthe basics of what it is to
follow Christ. So let
Unknown (39:17):
me, let me throw a complicated scenario that I've
experienced, you probably haveto, I won't give the exact
details, but like, you'reworking together in a or you
have an opportunity to work withsomeone in a, you know, caring
for people in need, type ofministry, and it's like, okay,
(39:40):
You're going to have twochurches, the grouping together
that are so my church andanother church that believes
something outside of Orthodox.
Specifically, this is one thatwas, you know, they're, they're
an affirming church that, youknow, sort of leading biblical
sexuality, Christian sexuality,behind. And so the dilemma is
like, do we just, we're bothdoing some of. Benevolent. We're
doing something out of love forthe community, but is it going
(40:02):
to cause confusion as far aslike, oh, come to either one of
our churches, like, are youwe're basically
Jeff Leake (40:07):
the same, right?
Yeah, right, yeah. That's atough one. That's a tough one. I
think in that situation, I wouldtry to determine what your
purpose is. So we're going intothis community to serve with the
intention of building arelationship with the people who
live here to to get them to cometo our church. The only way that
(40:29):
I think that would work is ifyour church got top billing, and
the other church was going tocome underneath your name with
an understanding of what yourtheology was, but they say we
don't care about that, as longas these kids get resources,
okay, yeah, or if you're sayingwe don't care if this community
comes to our church becausewe're too far away, or whatever,
(40:49):
we just want to get theseresources to the kids. And we
know this church is differentfrom us theologically, but we're
going to come and serve undertheir umbrella, and we're not
going to even try to make adifference, because all we care
is just that these poor peopleget what they need, I think. And
that sounded patronizing peoplein need receive the resources,
right? So I think that'sprobably the clarifying thing.
(41:11):
But it's not an automatic likeyou can't just automatically
say, Oh yeah, well, we're weboth bear the label Christian,
not any more than you could witha Jehovah's Witness, because
there's definite theological Iactually think in many ways, the
churches that no longer adhereto orthodox creeds or biblical
authority, they're probablysomething slightly different
(41:34):
than Christianity, even thoughyou might know the name of
Christianity, so you have tosort of treat them as that.
Yeah. But those who do hold tothe Orthodox creeds and the
authority of the Scripture, evenwhere you have minor doctrinal
differences, you can work withthem, yeah? And we should be
working together with them,yeah? And that's kind of one of
these sticky places of of wherethings are today. So, but where
(41:56):
you attend locally, you need toknow that that church is a
biblical, Orthodox theologicalsituation, okay, in order to be
rooted into something healthy,yeah?
Unknown (42:11):
So once you root into something healthy, what does it
mean to actually root it rootinto something healthy, you
know, like, let's uh,
Jeff Leake (42:17):
let's just, well, doctrine matters. Yeah, it
matters what you believe. Itmatters your what your church
believes it matters what you'rebeing taught. You should be a
student of the word. You shouldbe a student of theology. I'm
not. You'd have to be atheologian. Gotta know the
basics. So, you know, I know inour next episode, just a little
tease, we're going to talk aboutsome things, about habits
(42:40):
spiritually, getting on somelike a Bible reading plan as we
get ready to go into the newyear, where you're really
studying the Word, getting intoa life group that's actually
studying the Word, going throughsome membership classes where
you understand what the churchyou belong to teaches, finding
books to read or podcasts tolisten to, like something like
this that introduces you tobiblical truth, like you need to
(43:03):
be on a journey to root yourselfin truth and into health. And
that just doesn't happen. Thathappens because you were, you're
intentional about
Unknown (43:11):
it. You know, there's a forget who it was by I think
there was a book I wrote read incollege freshman year, called
that, everyone's a theologian orno, no. It's called, who needs
theology? It's what it was. Andthe sort of the idea was,
everybody's a theologian likeyou. Everybody has ideas about
God and who he is, and theBible, it's just how formed are
they, how specific, how howconcrete, how much are they
(43:33):
researched and informed by, byactual, you know, scripture, I
guess you could say so, I think.
Jeff Leake (43:40):
And ultimately the New Testament. The more you, the
more you immerse yourself in theNew Testament, the reading of
the book of Acts, of theGospels, the epistles that Paul
writes and Peter and John andthe others. The more you're,
you're you're rooting into earlychurch, thinking, yeah, right,
which is really where we want togo. Okay,
Unknown (43:56):
next steps for you. Now at this point, because we've
talked a lot about the splintersof the church and why, there are
different things. And we've sortof set laid out some criteria
knowing basic Christian truths,which is theological in nature.
And maybe you're like, Where doI even start? Well, I mean,
there's a bunch of freeresources. The Bible project is
(44:16):
a good place to learn aboutbooks of the Bible in terms of
what they actually say. It's nota theological website, or, I
should say organization so muchas is a hermeneutical one. We
talked about trying tounderstand what is being said
and what the intention of theauthors is. Yeah, Bible project
is excellent with that. Faosu isthey have a lot of free
Jeff Leake (44:38):
talks about that one. I know a lot of our staffs
into this now. Yeah,
Unknown (44:40):
there's a so I actually don't know who founded it or
formed it, but I know they'rebased out of Texas. I believe
one of the primary communicatorsnamed Nathan manokio, and they
have a bunch of free coursesthat are theology courses.
They're very accessible. Theyalso have degree programs that
you can get into. But it's youronline self study. Yeah, online
self study, it's a good way.
Getting. But my personalfavorite, that I'd recommend is
(45:01):
the Alice Park LeadershipAcademy.
Jeff Leake (45:04):
Yeah, okay, right.
That's that's some place, ifyou're attending here, or you
want to come in here, fromSeptember to May, there's a
school year. There's also globaluniversity, which is associated
with our denomination, which isa good place to find. So global
Unknown (45:15):
university is a bachelor's or associate level
program, but they have a option,yeah, but that's called Berean
School of the Bible, right?
Which is the same essentialmaterial in the courses, but
it's unaccredited, meaning thatyou can, you can spend a
fraction, like less than a 10thof the price, to get educated
without actually having a degreein Bible and theology.
(45:38):
Regardless, you don't have to goso, so, so hardcore, if you
don't feel like that's whereGod's leading you, but you
should know the basics, yeah.
And if you don't, that's not ajudgment, it's just say, Hey,
this is a great year to say, Iwant to learn about who God is,
and I want to start to, youknow, hammer out what I believe
about Scripture. Yeah. And
Jeff Leake (45:58):
if you belong to Allison Park Church, or a church
that's in the same flow as weare. You might want to go to
ag.org, which is the Assembliesof God website, which will tell
you some of the history anddoctrine of this organization
that we're part of. We'll getagain, every denomination is
imperfect in some way. Nodenomination is the Church that
Jesus started. Right, right?
But, but if you're in one, ifyou're in a church that's in
(46:20):
one, it's good to know theframework of that too. Probably
your church's website has somedoctrinal statements on it too
well. And look at that. Yeah,
Unknown (46:27):
absolutely, by the way, you know, I think there's a lot
of videos circling the internetthat are different other
different religions, debunkingthe Bible, debunking, you know,
Paul talks about being able tocorrectly handle the word of
truth. That's that's part of whywe need to know a little bit of
theology. If all you're doing isin taking and being fed from
sound bites and clips andpreachers online.
Jeff Leake (46:46):
If someone has said something on a little clip
that's disturbed you and said, Inever knew that was true, it
might not be true. It might notbe true. Yes, yes. So don't,
don't let tick tock be yourtheological framework
Unknown (46:58):
for your informant. I mean, if, if they, if they
triggered you
Jeff Leake (47:01):
so that you want to learn more, that's good, but
just don't take what's said onthe internet as gospel.
Unknown (47:06):
Oh, man, they're really it's sort of like if somebody
had said something with an edgyanti establishment type of tone.
You're like, wow, they've beenlying to me. Yes. Like, no,
maybe they're lying to you rightnow. Yes, right. You know what I
mean, more likely they're lyingto you right now. And
Jeff Leake (47:21):
that's why. So there is there, by the way, the song
that we mentioned earlier, Ibelieve in God, our Father, is
called this. I This, I believe.
And it's by Hillsong, and it'sbased on the Apostles Creed,
which is another one of thoseancient creeds like the Nicene
one, that is one of the creedsthat is like a skeleton for
Orthodox theology. Good. I loveit, yeah? So you can go to
Spotify and type in this Ibelieve, and sing some good
(47:44):
theology if you want. Yeah,
Unknown (47:47):
okay, sort of to spin it all back around the
denominations that we haveformed for a lot of different
reasons. But if you're trying tofind out who's right, you have
to start to learn the Bible foryourself, right? And if you want
to be safe and make sure thatyour your family is in the right
spot, that you're healthy andgrowing, because it's not just
(48:08):
like, well, I feel like I'mlearning or I feel community.
You could feel great communityin a lot of cults, which is why
people end up, in part why theyjoin them. Yeah, so, you know,
learn the Bible. Learn what theWord of God says and learn what
the church you're in believes,learn what the church you're in
believes, that's also a goodthing. And we're not
recommending that you leave justfor anything like, oh, I
disagree. If it's a small thing,it doesn't necessarily mean that
(48:30):
that's the wrong place for youto be. There are, there are,
like, tier four issues that it'slike, ah, do we believe the same
thing about pre trib Rapture?
Or, like, there's like, youknow, really fine details that
maybe aren't worthdisfellowshipping. You could
say,
Jeff Leake (48:45):
Yeah, but there are some guy that said this, Dave,
this just popped into my head asyou were talking. He said, this
is actually a good summary forhow do we deal with people of
differing opinions, because yousaid, you don't just jump out
with any difference of opinions.
He said, Whoever this was. Inessentials, we have unity. So in
the key things, yeah, inessentials, we have unity. And
(49:08):
in non essentials, we haveliberty, which means you have
the right to disagree withsomething like, like our last
episode on predestination,that's non essential if you
believe slightly different, it'sokay, right? In essentials we
have unity. In non essentials,we have live Augustine. And in
all things, we have charity,which means in all things, we
love each other. So inessentials, essential
(49:29):
theological orthodox doctrine,we have to be unified on that,
because that's the the keys towhat it is to be a Christian.
The Augustine
Unknown (49:37):
was one of the church fathers. And essentials, unity
and non essentials, liberty andall things charity, yeah.
Jeff Leake (49:43):
And he was a leader in the fifth century, which is
part of the first 500 years ofthe church, right? So, um, yeah,
I think that's a good summarystatement. That is a good
summary statement, yeah. So yougot to know your essentials. Got
to know your essentials, right?
That's kind of the baseline, notin everything, and in
everything, regardless of. Whothey are, where they're coming
from. You gotta have love, yeah?
Because that's the defining markof the behavior and attitude and
(50:06):
disposition of a Christian,yeah.
Unknown (50:08):
And truth, absent of love, is just mean spirited, and
it's unlike Jesus, right? Sothat's, that's what we strive
for. Anything else you want to.
Close on Merry
Jeff Leake (50:18):
Christmas, everybody. Hope you have an
amazing holiday season. We lookforward to next year in season
six. Yeah, and
Unknown (50:25):
again, we would love to open presents of five star
reviews that we can shout outyour names in this new year
won't be this next episode,because we will already have
that recorded before, before theNew Year's. You know, New Year
actually comes. But we wouldlove to say thank you for
helping us spread the word. Italk to people all the time who
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Have you ever wondered why there are so many different
(00:02):
types of churches, so manydifferent labels for Christians,
Lutherans, Methodists, Baptists,Catholics, Eastern, Orthodox?
It's a good question. The topicwe're gonna be talking about
today is, why are there so manydenominations, and, more
crucially, how do we know who'sright? If you want to learn more
about how you can not just picka church, but to find truth and
(00:22):
go ahead and tune in. Heyeverybody. Welcome to the
Allison Park leadership podcast,where we have culture creating
conversations. My name is Dave,
Jeff Leake (00:30):
and my name is Jeff, and we are glad that you are
joining us. We want to wish youa Merry Christmas, as this was
recorded just before theChristmas season, and we want to
say this is the end of seasonfour and we're getting ready to
go into season five. But no, no,you're wrong. It's into five,
end of five. And if you're Yeah,going into our sixth one, baby,
(00:51):
yeah, yeah. Started in November2019, and still going strong. So
if you have become a recentlistener, or this is your first
time, we're glad you've joinedus. Dave and our father and son
were also pastors at AllisonPark Church. Dave's at the North
Side campus, and I'm the leadpastor. And
Unknown (01:05):
you always watching on live stream, you can see our
Christmas decoration.
Jeff Leake (01:07):
There you go. How about that? And we got the
little we have, actually thelittle Yoda Christmas ball.
Unknown (01:14):
It's also doubles as Matt's office. So,
Jeff Leake (01:17):
yeah. So, and since you always do this pitch, if you
are what watching or listeningon YouTube, Spotify or Apple
podcast, if you can leave us alike or review, that would be
amazing, because it helps us getthe word out to other not just
Unknown (01:28):
a review. Give us a five star review. Five Star,
yeah, not a one star. No, no.
Scrooge is on here. Please be Imean, you can, but we appreciate
it. We love
Jeff Leake (01:37):
it when you comment on anything or especially
whenever you you like, becauseit helps us get the word out,
and we appreciate you. Allright. What are we talking about
today? Dave, on this finalepisode
Unknown (01:47):
of season five, not very Christmassy, but well,
maybe it is, I don't know. Todaywe're talking about the title is
where, where do denominationscome from? And how do we know
who's right?
Jeff Leake (01:57):
Yeah. And the reason why we're getting at this is
because this is actually one ofthe questions you have asked us
to address, because no one evertalks about this actually, like,
you know, we know there's abunch of them. Why are there a
bunch of them? If there's ifJesus is the founder, so to
speak, in a way, like he's theone that that we all follow, I
guess is a better way to say it.
Why are there so many splintergroups, and how? Well, how come
(02:19):
they have different ideas, andwhat happened over all these
1000s of years that we ended uphere, right? Because I'm not
sure that Jesus intended it likethis, that we would have all
these denominations. So how dowe end up in this space,
Unknown (02:33):
right? Well, and usually, if somebody says, like,
Are you religious? And it mightsay, you would say I'm Catholic,
or I'm Lutheran, or, you know,probably not just I'm Christian.
Jeff Leake (02:41):
Well, they might say I used to go to church, but I
don't believe in organizedreligion anymore. I'm now
spiritual, yeah? Actually, someof the reason why people might
say that is because of thisparticular question, because
they're confused about whichchurch to belong to and why the
conflicts and all that goodstuff, yeah? So, so just
recently, Dave, I think thisbrings attention to the surface.
So I have been to Israel threetimes. I've led, led groups
(03:05):
there a couple of times. And I'mdoing a series right now at
Allison Park Church called Don'tsqueeze the frog, which is one
of the images that we use forthe four topics. So the idea is,
a picture is worth 1000 words.
So we're looking at a culturalimage, and then we're drawing a
moral principle out of thatidea. And the second week of the
series, I used a symbol that wefind in Jerusalem at the Church
(03:31):
of the Holy Sepulcher called theimmovable ladder. So let's give
you that. If you're watching onYouTube, you'll be able to see
this. This is the picture of theimmovable ladder. So Church of
the Holy Sepulcher built around335 ad, so 300 years after Jesus
resurrection, sepulcher meanstomb. So, so best guess,
researched guess is that this iswhere Jesus tomb was, which is
(03:55):
right next to the goal area ofGolgotha, where he was
crucified, and so in 313 adConstantine became the emperor
of Rome. He made Christian.
Christianity now one of thelegalized religions of his
empire, because his mama was astrong Christian. His mom went
to Jerusalem, researched to thebest of her ability, where Jesus
(04:18):
would have died and rose fromthe grave, and they built a
church there. Over time, it gotbigger and bigger, and it has
been there ever since. There aresix denominations that share
this space with great tension.
So Orthodox, Catholic, Coptic,Egyptian, I think, is one of
them, Armenian, and I can'tremember the fifth. They all
share the worship space, andthey have some degree of tension
(04:42):
over who gets to use which spacewhen. And the tension had grown
by the year 1728, somebody hadcleaned the window, left the
ladder outside, no one tookresponsibility for it, and so it
just stayed there, and it hasstayed there since 17. Eight,
296 years, this ladder has beenoutside because of the tension
(05:02):
that exists between thesedenominations. What are they
calling now the holy ladder.
It's the immovable ladder,removable ladder, yeah. And it's
a symbol of the tension thatexists in the spot, which is
really ironic, because you wouldthink at the place where Jesus
rose from the dead, you know,like Jesus said you'll know that
they're Christians because theyhave loved one for one another.
(05:23):
And on the place where Jesusrose from the dead and was
crucified, you have a symbol ofChristians who can't get along
with each other. Most pettything possibly bad. Yeah. And so
the Ottoman Empire, who was inpower in the 1700s over
Jerusalem, got so tired of theinfighting that they declared
something called the status quo,which means no one can do
anything in the building withoutthe permission of the other five
(05:45):
denominations. It's sort of likesix, six, I'm sorry. It's like,
it's like when you were little,and I had five kids, and I would
come into the room when you werefighting, and everybody had to
sit and be quiet because,because so non Christian Ottoman
Empire had to make a rule statusquo to keep the Christian
denominations from fighting eachother. So this is sort of a
(06:05):
tragedy, right? It's a shame.
It's not the way Christianity issupposed to be. Jesus said not
they'll know you're Christiansby the great cathedrals you'll
build on holy sites, but by theway you treat each other. Yeah.
And so denominationalism hasoftentimes become a thing
because one group splintered offfrom another over doctoral
disputes or territory ordivorces, like what happened
(06:28):
with the Anglican Church and theBaptist who separated from them.
Unknown (06:34):
So whether the Holy Spirit is under Jesus or he's on
the same level to the
Jeff Leake (06:40):
Father, doctrinal problems, other kinds of
tensions. So almost always, youwould say denominations
splintered because of disputes.
Yeah, so in some reason we wouldsay we have denominations
because Christians, overcenturies, have disputed with
each other. Yeah, that's
Unknown (06:55):
a pretty sturdy ladder, by the way. It's gotta keep
thinking about, yeah, like, wow,that thing has been there for
how many years now?
Jeff Leake (07:00):
Well, I'm sure that it's symbolic now, and they
probably, because of its fame,make sure that it doesn't
deteriorate,
Unknown (07:07):
but they're touching it then, yeah?
Jeff Leake (07:09):
So I don't know, yeah, I don't know. I think they
don't move it now, because it'sbeen there so long, it's become
historical, right? It's not thatit's a value, it's just that now
it's a historical article.
Unknown (07:22):
I'm like, wow, that thing is lasting through because
it's leaned up against the wall.
Yeah, storms and gusts. Well,you
Jeff Leake (07:27):
can see the the places in the wall where it's
carved out, where it leans somuch that it actually created a
space on the rock. That's nuts.
Unknown (07:36):
That's they just built the railing around it, yeah,
Jeff Leake (07:39):
to protect anyone from touching it. Probably, Oh,
got it, yeah. I mean, this is,this is the most unusual site,
too. When you go in there, thereare, there's a long line to go
and kiss the rock, yeah, wherethey believe the blood of Jesus
dripped, right? No one knowsexactly was that rock. I It's
too unsanitary for me. I wasn'tgoing to do that. And, like, I'm
(08:00):
not exactly sure what you gainout of kissing it, right? So,
and then there's a place whereyou can go through this long
hour and a half line to find theentrance to the tomb. Okay?
There's another place inJerusalem, by the way, which is
called the Garden Tomb, which iscreated by contemporary
Christian organizations. And itfeels a lot like you would
expect the tomb to feel. Butmost scholars believe it's not
(08:21):
the accurate location forJesus's resurrection. Probably
the Church of the Holy Sepulcheris the spot. But back to the
topic, disputes, causedivisions, which cause
denominations? That's the simplearticulation of it. Now 2000
years later, remember, we'reeight years away from the 2000
year anniversary of theresurrection of Jesus and the
(08:43):
birth of the church. So over2000 years we have hundreds of
denominations because ofhundreds of disputes that have
been created over a long periodof time. And so it's not pretty,
it's not it's not what I wouldlike it to be, but it is the
case. And so now many of usbelong to a recent denomination,
(09:06):
like Allison parks, a part ofthe Assemblies of God, which is
an organization that started in1914 so it's, it's a very recent
one. A lot of people mightbelong to a non denominational
church. Doesn't have anydenomination at all it, but it
sort of functions unto itselfwith their own little relational
environment, not necessarilybelonging to any
institutionalized place. So whodo? How do what's, what's the
(09:30):
title again? How do we get allthese denominations come from?
And how do we know who's right?
Yeah, okay, let's talk about thehow do we know who's right part.
Because I think that's reallyinteresting in a way, so I don't
identify personally, like, Okay,I'm a third generation
Assemblies of God guy. My familycame into the Assemblies of God
through my grandparents and thenmy parents, and so your fourth
(09:53):
gen Dave. So somewhere on yourbody there should be an A. G all
the gospel tattooed in a way sobut my primary identification is
not with the assignments of God,it's with the early church. So
when I think about the church, Idon't think about the
assignments of God. I thinkabout the book of Acts. I think
about I want to go back to theraw origins like I want to read
(10:16):
the Bible, and I want to say Iwant to be as much like that.
I'm not going back to the fourthcentury or the 17th century, or
a lot of people go back to theReformation the 15th century, or
the revival movements in Americaor the Azusa Street Revival in
the early nineteens. I'm goingback to Acts. And I'm saying I
belong to the Assemblies of God,functionally, but my theological
(10:39):
and emotional attachment is tothe early church that was
started when the Holy Spirit waspoured out. And that's my
measurement, is that now out ofthat we come up with doctrinal
statements, what we believe andwhat we practice and how we
function, which then ultimatelytells you which denominational
tribe you probably fit in with.
(11:01):
But for me, that's where i i goback to.
Unknown (11:04):
So you mean, you simplified, let's get into the
nuance, because you simplifiedso much that it's like you
could, I mean, we're at 11minutes of this podcast, like,
that's it.
Jeff Leake (11:16):
Yeah, that's the frame of it. There's a lot of
gaps to fill in. But for me, Imean, it is true. Disputes
started denominations, yeah, nodoubt. And the early church is
the be all and end all, yeah.
And it doesn't answer who'sright, because
Unknown (11:30):
the early church is no longer around when we left them,
we left them 2000 years in thepast, yeah, you know. So we
Jeff Leake (11:37):
would say which denomination is the truest to
the early church would be, wouldbe the way I'd measure it. And
how do we become more like thatso, but I mean, there's a lot of
history we didn't cover. Wecould, we could track through
the disputes, if you want, andwhere the splinters began.
Because one thing that you'llhear this is something I've
noticed. Dave, I don't know ifyou picked this up, because
(11:59):
you're not on social media. ButI'll say, first of all, over the
last couple years, I have feltmore and more an affinity with
my brothers and sisters inChrist. I guess you'd say in the
Roman Catholic Church, like Iunderstand, there's so much that
we have in common. When we didthis episode a couple of years
(12:19):
back on Catholics, cults andChristians. We tried to
distinguish between what doCatholics believe, and what do
we believe, and what are thedifferences? And if you did
listen to that episode andyou're looking for that
particular slant, that would beprobably one to go back to. And
what we were saying this liketwo years ago, we did that one,
yeah, but Roman Catholics havetaken to social media, and
(12:41):
there's a lot of voices outthere now that are saying, Why,
why you should be Catholic?
Yeah, there are. Yeah there are.
And which, I don't begrudge thatat all, it's a lot of the high
church
Unknown (12:51):
denominations.
Actually. It's not justCatholics, but I think they're
leading and leading the push.
But it's, I feel like it'sloose.
Jeff Leake (12:56):
That was a space for the longest time. You would
really rarely see the highchurch voices, but I've actually
seen some tick tock dance videosby priests and things that are
going on where it's actually funin a way. It's like making the
Catholic Church or Anglicanchurch or whatever, more
accessible. Well,
Unknown (13:15):
it's, it's, it's saying, okay, so they're
positioned very well on thependulum swing of there was a
swing. Let's feel less and lesschurchy. Like, yeah, let's get
away from your your grandma.
We're
Jeff Leake (13:29):
already less churchy. They're trying to move
in that direction, to becomemore accessible. Don't
Unknown (13:34):
you think, yeah, yeah, no, but, but I'm saying, I'm
saying with just the appetite ofculture, yeah, people are.
People are like, well, I don'tneed to just be like everybody
else, like, if you're, if you'relooking for spirituality, there
is something appealing aboutgoing to somebody who's wearing
a big hat and a collar and arobe, because it's like, okay,
at least they're fully there,yeah? As opposed to like, ah,
(13:56):
like, I wear jeans and a youknow what? I mean, yeah, we have
haze. Like, there's not that. Imean, we do that and not, not
that. I'm against that, but Ithink there's something that
attracts people to be like, Oh,this is like the, this is like a
they never stopped being thisreligious, not that religious
is, I mean, the directory term.
Jeff Leake (14:14):
So the Roman Catholic Church and the Orthodox
Church are the oldestdenominations, yeah, what you
will hear from Roman Catholicson social media is that they're
the original that it that Jesusstarted one church, and it was
the Catholic Church founded onPeter as the first pope, and
(14:35):
that it's always been theCatholic Church, and any
Splinter has been away from theCatholic Church, that's actually
not completely historicallyaccurate, right? So at first,
when Christianity became legal,like 313 it was legal to be a
Christian. 380 ad Christianitybecame the recommended or state
(14:56):
religion of the Roman Empire. Inthe early stages, there. Was no
official, institutionalizedchurch. There was a structure in
place. And actually what therewas is there were, there was a
five leaders that were calledthe Five patriars, patriarchs,
another word for Pope. Sobasically, there were five popes
that operated like a committee.
One was in Rome, one was inAntioch one was in
(15:18):
Constantinople, one was inJerusalem, and one was in
Alexandria. And they were like aoverseeing committee of all the
churches that had beenestablished and planted the
local churches. And they woulddecide on governing principles
for the raw early movement ofthe legalized Church, the in
that they had church councilslike the Council of Nicaea,
where they decided on theofficial canon of the Bible, or
(15:40):
there was a council in Laodiceawhere they made policies about
how priests should function andhow local churches should
operate. Okay, but it was allone team of five leaders that
were operating without really alabel, because it was all
Christianity like they theydidn't need to name it Catholic
(16:00):
or Orthodox, because there wasonly one. It was just the
Christian church. Now Catholicactually means universal, so
technically, this was theuniversal church in in that
sense a Catholic church, becauseit was, it was, it encompassed
everything, but it wasn't whatwe think of as the Roman
Catholic Church, because itwasn't until 1044 when there was
(16:22):
a split between the four Easternpatriarchs and the one Roman
patriarch Rome becameinfluential in Europe, and the
Roman Catholic Church splinteredfrom those other four, and the
other four became leaders inwhat we now think of Eastern
Orthodox and they were the twoprimary so for the first 1000
years, it was basically onechurch, five patriarchs. Then it
(16:45):
became a Roman version and anEastern version, Eastern
Orthodox. And then about 500years later, there was something
called the Reformation, whereLuther began to question the
practices, especially the RomanCatholic Church, and he split.
He actually, Luther did not wantto leave the Catholic Church. He
was a Catholic priest, but hewas kicked out of it, and
(17:09):
therefore formed a brand newmovement based on reformation
theology, which takes us back tosome original ideas in the New
Testament. And from there, youget the Lutheran church. So now
we basically have three groupsthat that have formed, and then
out of reformation, we getothers, right? Eventually we get
(17:30):
the Anglican Church, whichbasically is what happens in
Great Britain, because the kingwants a divorce and remarriage
that the Pope won't give him.
And so he's sort of their statereligion. He forms his own
church to just fit his he's thehead of the church, actually,
yes, I think so. To this day,he's like, I'm done with you
Catholic Church. I'm going to domy own thing. That doesn't mean
(17:51):
Anglican Episcopal is a badchurch. Actually, it's become a
very healthy church all over theworld, but that's where it
begins to get its founding outof the Episcopal church comes in
the 1700s some really intensespiritual desire that is led by
John Leslie, which he starts theMethodist Church. So Methodists
(18:12):
were actually Anglicans thatwere more intense in their
spirituality. Presbyterians kindof came out of that too. Same
kind of way the Baptist splitoff of the Anglican Church
because they want to separatefrom this state religion that
was going on in Great Britain.
And so you can see splintergroups that have happened over
time. Then if you get to the1900s you have the Pentecostal
revival that happens. And youhave a bunch of Pentecostal
(18:35):
movements that start theAssemblies of God, the church of
God, the church of God, andChrist the four square actually,
in after Pentecost in the days,in the early days of the
westward expansion across theUnited States. Of course, the
United States madedenominationalism multiply. So
1000s, I shouldn't say 1000s,hundreds of splinter groups
(18:57):
formed over theologicaldisputes. So you have oneness
theology, which becomes its ownPentecostal version, and you
have the there was onedenomination called the Holy
Spirit baptized in firemovement, which believed that
when you baptize people, you hadto say that they were baptized
in the fire of the Holy Spirit.
(19:20):
Like little now disputes becamereasons for denominational
separation. Well, they were evenfrom the beginning, though,
yeah, that's true. I mean, otherthan typically, they the raw,
early, early, several 100 yearchurch just said, That's not
Christianity, and they fadedaway. But Catholic
Unknown (19:37):
and Orthodox split over the mean, one of the major
reasons was the so the father,sorry, the father is at the top
of the hierarchy, and then theSon and Holy Spirit are under
but orthodox said it's like thefrom the Father precedes the Son
and Holy Spirit. And Catholicsaid, from the Father is the
(19:58):
son, then from the Son is the.
Holy Spirit. And that was, like,the, should the Holy Spirit be
ranked lowest, or should he beon T like, I think, I think a
lot of it was actually moregeopolitical,
Jeff Leake (20:09):
yeah, well, it was power. Oh, absolutely stated
reason, the reason why Romesplit from the other four was
because of Rome had become themost powerful branch and most
influential in Europe. So, bythe way, there's a, there's a
great book that if you'reinterested in those five
patriarchs and what happens inthe years 300 to 1000 it's
called lost to the west. It'swritten by a guy named Lars
(20:32):
brown worth and it will give youthe details on some of this
historical stuff if you'reinterested in
Unknown (20:38):
that. Yeah, I was gonna look that up. Lost to the west.
Yeah.
Jeff Leake (20:41):
So I guess now the question Dave is, because we
could go into various doctrinalsplinterings that have happened,
I'm not sure that's going to behelpful for anybody. Sure. Our
goal here was to say, where didit all come from? And now, how
do we know who's right? Yeah, isthe second part of this. But I
guess there's kind of a thirdquestion is, what do we do with
(21:02):
all this? Like, if you're afollower of Jesus and there are
all these denominations, andwe're supposed to be loving each
other, like, Okay, we don't wantto be holy ladder. Or, excuse
me, immovable ladder people whoare constantly because for a
long time, you didn't go to achurch unless it fit your tribe
that you grew up with, like, ifyou moved to Pittsburgh and you
(21:23):
were now new to the area and youwere Presbyterian, the only
thought was to find aPresbyterian Church, right? Or,
if you were Catholic, you wentto a Catholic church. I don't
think that's the thing anymore.
I think people now maybe this isgood and bad. People show up in
a church not knowing what theChurch believes. They just want.
They want a church that makesthem feel a certain way. Well, a
Catholic church, you know,you're getting, yeah, yeah, it's
(21:43):
true.
Unknown (21:45):
And maybe some of the high church denominations, I
think some of the like the olderones, you're still looking for
that. But I think largely incontemporary churches, of any
whether it's Baptist or product,you know, sorry, Pentecostal or
whatever it might be. I do thinkyou sort of walk into like, Oh,
let's see what this is.
Jeff Leake (22:04):
Yeah, for sure.
Well, I like the pastors, themusic, good kind of thing. I
actually think it's probably notgood that people don't know what
they believe and what thatchurch believes, and that
they're matching something thatthey that they actually agree
with. It takes probably a yearor so to you like, oh, you
believe that? Like, I didn'tknow you feel like that, yeah,
well, if I want to stay hereanymore, right? So that's part
of, I think the, you know, theway things have changed in 2024
(22:28):
well, it
Unknown (22:30):
also like, so you have some, okay, the scenario you're
talking about, thepresupposition is a seasoned
Christian with a set theologymove somewhere, and should know
what the pastor believes. Oftenpeople are like, I don't even
know what I believe, yeah.
Jeff Leake (22:46):
Well, you should probably at least go on the
website to read their statement.
Yeah. But
Unknown (22:50):
how would you know?
This is the question. How do youknow who's right? So it's like,
within like, where do weunderstand theology from, and
what like, All right, well, let
Jeff Leake (22:59):
me, let me, since I've talked for a lot of this,
how do we know it's right? Well,let
Unknown (23:02):
me quickly, just by the way, say that loss of the West
is included in Spotify Premium.
Okay, you can get it for free,yeah? Oh, nice, yeah. I mean,
like so Spotify does audiobooks. Now, if you're the
primary account holder, yeah,you
Jeff Leake (23:14):
can listen to audio books on there, which is nice.
Just a little preparation. Youhave to like history to like
this book. So it's going to be,it's going to wade through some
things, but if you stick withit, you'll learn a lot. Yeah.
Okay, so how do we how do weknow it's right, Dave, what,
what? Which denomination is theright one to belong to? How do I
know I'm in the right church?
What do I do with the fact thereare all these Christian
(23:34):
denominations that are outthere? Is there a way that we
can make peace with each other?
Do we ever cooperate onanything. I mean, these are
questions. I think that are goodquestions. So where do I start?
How do we know who's right?
Unknown (23:48):
Well, I think it's, it's easier to start with
shaving off the sides thatyou're like, Well, we know this
isn't right. You know there areso there are major, major, major
denominational splits right nowover Christian sexuality, just
as a really easy example, wherethe authority of the Bible is
being challenged or it'sreinterpreted, even though, I
(24:10):
mean, it's it so okay, how do weknow who's right? Well, there
are core tenets of the faiththat we would call dogmas that
every Orthodox Church shouldhold to orthodox means every,
every main line, well,
Jeff Leake (24:28):
even that word is difficult, every, every church
that's true to the Scripture,that's
Unknown (24:33):
true to the Scripture and it's true to Jesus, yeah,
should believe some basic So,for example, the Trinity, the
fall of man, the authority theScriptures that Jesus is the
actual son. Let's
Jeff Leake (24:43):
just start with the one you mentioned, uh huh. So
first, yeah, we believe in theauthority of the Bible, yeah.
Okay, go ahead. We believe thatthe Bible is the basis for what
we believe and what we practice.
Yep, yep. So a church that doesnot believe in the authority of
the Bible. Bible would not bethe place you'd want to
Unknown (25:02):
stay. Alright, you need to redefine what authority of
the Bible means. You do it okay.
So the Bible is the divinelyinspired Word of God that has no
errors. It is it is a it isperfect, and it is authoritative
for our life. And I guess theother part of this should be
that the Bible is meant to beunderstood from the intended
(25:24):
meaning of the authors. So it's,it is, it is divine. Every word
of it's divinely inspired byGod. It has total authority. And
we should try to understand itas the authors meant to be,
because the where the Biblestops being, the authority is,
what does it mean to me?
Jeff Leake (25:43):
Okay, so we believe, so dig
Unknown (25:46):
on to that. What does it mean to me? Because, yeah, go
ahead. Go ahead. Okay, so, so,because the Bible does a
personal meaning, I just thinkthat if we skim that's going to
be we're going to be lost. Doesa personal meaning to me. But
what did the Apostle Paul meanwhen he wrote Romans chapter
one, for example, it's in hisended meeting his intended
(26:07):
meaning to the church in Romethat he was writing to right, to
the hearers, to the readers,whatever.
Jeff Leake (26:14):
So it's, it's making the truth objectified. Yeah,
Unknown (26:17):
yeah. Oh, this is what they because otherwise you're
taking out of context. Even now,if you clip up my voice and you
piece words I said together,you're taking what I said legit
out of context, because that'snot my intended meaning. It's
your intended meaning using mywords, yes. So the intended
meaning is what we're what we'researching for. Actually, the
whole practice of this is calledhermeneutics, the study of the
(26:38):
principles for interpreting theBible correctly so any, any
church believes that the Bibleis the the inspired,
authoritative word for God, Wordof God to us, and we want to
take that wholesale andinterpret it to the best of our
ability. So
Jeff Leake (26:51):
let's look at that historically. Yeah, the very
first council that they couldhold after the church became a
legal possibility was in 325,where they determined, and I
guess you would say where theyfinally came above ground and
said emphatically, these are thebooks of the Bible that we see
(27:13):
as authoritative, correct forour lives and the and that was
important, because more than thepatriarchs and popes, the the
the written word was thepreeminent guide for life. Now,
eventually, over time, theCatholic Church has elevated the
Pope's voice to be equal withthe Bible. We would say the
(27:37):
Bible supersedes any other humanauthority, because it's God
breathed by the power Person ofthe Holy Spirit. So we aren't
looking to any other humanleader currently to set the
standard for us, because theword of God is the final
standard. But then there areother churches that don't follow
the Pope or the Bible. They'reprobably more following the
cultural flow, and they'retaking certain parts of the
(27:59):
Bible to make it fit what theirworld they're
Unknown (28:01):
following values of justice. They're falling. They
would take principles out of theBible, and where the Bible seems
to disagree with theirprinciples, they're like, well,
that's outdated, or they mightnot have meant that anyway. Or,
you know, we're gonna, we're notgonna allow the Bible to be that
exclusive to people.
Jeff Leake (28:19):
Yeah. So it's an evolving theology, rather than a
rooted one in in in thescriptures and in history. I
would say that's one of thepotential dangers with
Catholicism as well, is thatit's an evolving theology well,
because the pope can change it,and he kind of has, and he is
right currently. Yeah, right.
Okay, so first is, it is theauthority of the Bible. That's
number one, right? What elsewould be key factors for us?
(28:41):
Jesus is the Son of God, yeah.
Okay, there you go. Withoutthat, you have nothing really,
yeah, right, absolutely,literally, physically died on
the cross, that He was buried inthe ground and that he
literally, physically rose fromthe dead. Yep, there are a lot
of, there are a lot ofdenominations that don't believe
that, yeah, so they believe thatwas figurative or
(29:03):
spiritualistic, yeah, notphysical, right,
Unknown (29:06):
right? Yeah, yeah. And that, I mean it there. It's
explicit in Scripture. If Christdidn't really race from the
dead, I mean, Paul has whole,
Jeff Leake (29:14):
then we're just making it all Exactly. What
point is there built on theresurrection?
Unknown (29:18):
Yeah? Um, okay, then, then sin, you know, the the fall
of man into sin and his need forsalvation is a dogma. Man
Jeff Leake (29:26):
is not basically good and getting better. We're,
we're, we're evil, and need tobe saved. Yeah? Salvation of
man's next one, I would say. Andwe're saved not by our own good
works, but by putting our trustin what Jesus Christ did on the
cross. Yeah, I'm using editorsnow. We're getting to into
reference Luthers, reformationalthinking, right? Sure, solely.
Sola scriptura, only the Bibleis the authority, right, right?
(29:46):
You know, sola Fauci, which isonly by faith in Christ can I be
saved, right? Sola Gracia, whichmeans only by the grace of God
can I be saved. So. So there arefive of these principles that
came out of the Reformation thatbrought. Biblical foundational
ideas that had been lost overthese hundreds of years prior,
that we would definitely fallwithin that framework of that
(30:09):
reformational thought. We
Unknown (30:12):
would fall under that but I would argue that it's
pretty clear that those areprinciples that if you're
reading the Bible from theperspective of what the author
intended. They're there. They'rethere. Yeah, they're so they're
apparent principles that Lutherbrought to the surface, but
they've been there all the time.
So, so what happened, no,they're not new theology, yeah,
part of the splintering was youhave this historical church that
(30:33):
has like, 1000, not 1000s, buthundreds. You know, I guess,
over, over, over a millennia ofhistory of he lost its way. It's
it's culture, it's leadership.
And many people were used by Godpowerfully, and they were moved
to the spirit all throughoutthose but they there had been an
(30:54):
elevation of church leadershipand hierarchy and tradition over
scripture, sometimes in directcontradiction, overriding what
Scripture actually said.
Jeff Leake (31:04):
So some of the denominations were formed not
just out of dispute, but out ofa call back to the source
concepts. Yeah, Christianity isexactly I would say. The Azusa
Street revivals in the early1900s were that they were a call
back to the working of the HolySpirit and the demonstration of
God's supernatural power, whichhad also been sort of lost from
(31:25):
the church's experience. And thereason why denominations were
formed like Church of God inChrist, Assemblies of God
Foursquare wasn't because theyset out to form denominations.
As much as that they were kickedout of their pre existing
denominations because they werepracticing biblical, Holy Spirit
oriented activities. Soorganizations were formed
because these folks had no placeto belong, right?
Unknown (31:47):
By the way, I am, I am rusty in my church history here,
so I might say somethingignorant, but if we're talking
about dogma, the Nicene Creedwould probably be a good place
to start, right? So
Jeff Leake (32:01):
read it for us.
Dave, okay, this is, this is oneof these under so we're not a
high church movement. We're morein the informal space. But the
Nicene Creed, which was an oldhistoric creed, sort of
summarizes, yeah, okay. What isChristianity?
Unknown (32:20):
Okay, so here's the Nicene Creed. I believe this is
it, at least. This is off of theChristian reformed church's
website. All right. We believein one God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, ofall things visible and
invisible, and in one Lord,Jesus, Christ, the only son of
God, begotten from the Fatherbefore all ages, God from God,
(32:40):
Light from Light, true God fromtrue God begotten, not made of
the same essence as the Father.
Through Him, all things weremade for us and for our
salvation. He came down fromheaven. He became incarnate by
the Holy Spirit and the VirginMary, and was made human. He was
crucified for us under PontiusPilate. He suffered and was
buried the third day, he roseagain, according to the
(33:01):
Scriptures, he ascended toheaven and is seated at the
right hand of the Father. Hewill come again with glory to
judge the living and the dead.
His kingdom will never end. Andwe believe in the Holy Spirit,
the Lord, the giver of life. Heproceeds from the Father and the
Son, and with the Father and theSon is worshiped and glorified.
He spoke to the prophets. Andthen here it goes into the
(33:23):
Catholic part of it. But webelieve in one holy, catholic
and apostolic Church. Catholic
Jeff Leake (33:28):
meaning not what you think of as Roman Catholic, but
universal
Unknown (33:32):
right. We affirm one Baptism for the begin this of
sins. We look forward to theresurrection of the dead into
the world and to life in theworld to come, amen. But you
know, the one part of I wouldsay we maybe didn't cover in our
dogma survey, is the hope ofJesus coming back, that one day
he'll come back and, you know,judge every every person living
in so
Jeff Leake (33:52):
this creed for centuries was read in almost
every church service as the coreskeleton of doctrine that those
who are part of the Christianfaith agreed with and stood for,
and people who come back andread this creed now we would say
those who align with this creedwould have the skeleton, the
backbone of what Christianitytruly is. Yes. So we would be we
(34:16):
would absolutely whole harm theNicene Creed with some of those
caveats of what the wordCatholic means, right, right, so
and so, knowing what you believethat way we sing that song. Is
that the Nicene Creed? I believein God our Father. I believe in
Christ, his son. Is that theNicene creed that we sing? I
(34:38):
think it's based off of it,yeah, okay,
Unknown (34:40):
but I don't think it is the Creed itself. Yeah, I think
that's, I think that's, that'sthe that based off the doxology,
praise the father, praise theson, praise the spirit, three
and one,
Jeff Leake (34:53):
anyway, regardless.
I think, I think what we're,what we're getting around to, is
that the early church is the beall and end all.
Unknown (35:00):
That? Well, the Bible is the be all and end all. That
describes the function ofliterature. Yeah? Exactly,
exactly.
Jeff Leake (35:06):
Who declares the a physical, resurrected Jesus, who
is the hope of the world. Whatdo you I don't understand, we're
up reading here. No, I'm notreading. Oh yeah. I'm just
saying stuff. Okay,
Unknown (35:20):
I'm just saying stuff, yeah, it's a good caption for
our podcast. Just saying stuff.
Okay, so, so how do we knowwho's right? Well, first of all
that somebody would affirm theessential tenets of the faith,
the dogmas, the Nicene Creed,the things that everybody within
the one true church wouldbelieve that's that's the first
(35:41):
part that I would say. How do weknow who's right? Beyond that, I
think you've been hitting onthis a lot, but I think other
other tests, litmus tests, wouldbe, Does, does the what does,
what happens in the churchreflect the workings of the
early church?
Jeff Leake (35:59):
Yeah, right. Does the activity of the book back
show up in your local setting?
So, for example,
Unknown (36:06):
the great, great, great commission you know, that go
into all the world and makedisciples of all nations,
baptize them, and then fathersand the Holy Spirit and teaching
them. They all that I'vecommanded you. So, you know, go
and make disciples. So winningthe lost, making disciples that
make other disciples. That is apraying for the sick, yeah,
(36:26):
right, believing
Jeff Leake (36:27):
for the Holy Spirit to be poured out, helping the
poor, doing the things that are
Unknown (36:31):
even having healthy, healthy community that cares for
each other, studying the Wordtogether, you know, having a
high value for the word. So Ithink that there are, could I
say it's not? I think that therecould be a lot of churches
within a lot of denominationsthat are healthy and that are
pursuing things of the book ofActs. I don't, I don't know that
(36:52):
there's
Jeff Leake (36:52):
because, and in that sense, we do believe in the Holy
Catholic Church. Here's what Imean. It's the big C church.
It's the church that that is theoverarching umbrella, because
ultimately, no denomination isthe be all and end all. No,
right, we're all a part of alarger movement of those who are
trying to follow Jesus. And eventhough we might have differences
of opinion with people onvarious doctrinal ideas or
(37:14):
worship styles or whatever, youknow, the the dispute or or or
or difference would be, we stillbelong to the same Jesus. We
still are a part of the samechurch of Jesus Christ overall.
And we should be working tobuild bridges and to join arms
with other people of differentnominations, so that we close
the gap of the disputes and thedivisions that have existed as
(37:37):
long as they they're they're inthe zone of what we would call
historic, establishedChristianity.
Unknown (37:45):
Yeah, they believe that the Orthodox Church, right?
Orthodox Christianity, or it's
Jeff Leake (37:49):
not Greek Orthodox, it's not Eastern Orthodox
Church. But yes, they would beorthodox to the Christian faith.
Yeah. So
Unknown (37:57):
what? How do we interact with those that maybe
have the label of Christian, andthey attend a church that falls
outside of that, yeah,
Jeff Leake (38:06):
so that's a good question. I think, I think
that's a tough one. So I thinkthere's some general things that
we do in the world that we canwork with anybody on, regardless
of who you are, right? So if wewant to work for peace in a
situation, if we're going tohelp the poor, if so, I'm a part
of an organization called multifaith neighbors network, where
(38:27):
we try to get evangelicalpastors, rabbis and Imams
together to work for the good ofthe local community. And when
Afghan Afghan refugees movedinto Pittsburgh, mosques,
synagogues and churches worktogether to help raise money and
provide clothing for thesepeople who move into our city to
benefit. So I think in thesegeneral do good circumstances.
(38:50):
You can work with anybody. Sosomeone who's not a Christian,
let's say a Jehovah's Witnessthat we would call cult or
Mormon, that may be completelydifferent from Christianity, and
they want to work together toserve the poor or make peace up.
I think you can work withanybody, those that you're going
to closely fellowship with, thatyou're going to join arms with,
that you're going to be yokedtogether with. I think you have
(39:12):
to be in agreement, at least onthe basics of what it is to
follow Christ. So let
Unknown (39:17):
me, let me throw a complicated scenario that I've
experienced, you probably haveto, I won't give the exact
details, but like, you'reworking together in a or you
have an opportunity to work withsomeone in a, you know, caring
for people in need, type ofministry, and it's like, okay,
(39:40):
You're going to have twochurches, the grouping together
that are so my church andanother church that believes
something outside of Orthodox.
Specifically, this is one thatwas, you know, they're, they're
an affirming church that, youknow, sort of leading biblical
sexuality, Christian sexuality,behind. And so the dilemma is
like, do we just, we're bothdoing some of. Benevolent. We're
doing something out of love forthe community, but is it going
(40:02):
to cause confusion as far aslike, oh, come to either one of
our churches, like, are youwe're basically
Jeff Leake (40:07):
the same, right?
Yeah, right, yeah. That's atough one. That's a tough one. I
think in that situation, I wouldtry to determine what your
purpose is. So we're going intothis community to serve with the
intention of building arelationship with the people who
live here to to get them to cometo our church. The only way that
(40:29):
I think that would work is ifyour church got top billing, and
the other church was going tocome underneath your name with
an understanding of what yourtheology was, but they say we
don't care about that, as longas these kids get resources,
okay, yeah, or if you're sayingwe don't care if this community
comes to our church becausewe're too far away, or whatever,
(40:49):
we just want to get theseresources to the kids. And we
know this church is differentfrom us theologically, but we're
going to come and serve undertheir umbrella, and we're not
going to even try to make adifference, because all we care
is just that these poor peopleget what they need, I think. And
that sounded patronizing peoplein need receive the resources,
right? So I think that'sprobably the clarifying thing.
(41:11):
But it's not an automatic likeyou can't just automatically
say, Oh yeah, well, we're weboth bear the label Christian,
not any more than you could witha Jehovah's Witness, because
there's definite theological Iactually think in many ways, the
churches that no longer adhereto orthodox creeds or biblical
authority, they're probablysomething slightly different
(41:34):
than Christianity, even thoughyou might know the name of
Christianity, so you have tosort of treat them as that.
Yeah. But those who do hold tothe Orthodox creeds and the
authority of the Scripture, evenwhere you have minor doctrinal
differences, you can work withthem, yeah? And we should be
working together with them,yeah? And that's kind of one of
these sticky places of of wherethings are today. So, but where
(41:56):
you attend locally, you need toknow that that church is a
biblical, Orthodox theologicalsituation, okay, in order to be
rooted into something healthy,yeah?
Unknown (42:11):
So once you root into something healthy, what does it
mean to actually root it rootinto something healthy, you
know, like, let's uh,
Jeff Leake (42:17):
let's just, well, doctrine matters. Yeah, it
matters what you believe. Itmatters your what your church
believes it matters what you'rebeing taught. You should be a
student of the word. You shouldbe a student of theology. I'm
not. You'd have to be atheologian. Gotta know the
basics. So, you know, I know inour next episode, just a little
tease, we're going to talk aboutsome things, about habits
(42:40):
spiritually, getting on somelike a Bible reading plan as we
get ready to go into the newyear, where you're really
studying the Word, getting intoa life group that's actually
studying the Word, going throughsome membership classes where
you understand what the churchyou belong to teaches, finding
books to read or podcasts tolisten to, like something like
this that introduces you tobiblical truth, like you need to
(43:03):
be on a journey to root yourselfin truth and into health. And
that just doesn't happen. Thathappens because you were, you're
intentional about
Unknown (43:11):
it. You know, there's a forget who it was by I think
there was a book I wrote read incollege freshman year, called
that, everyone's a theologian orno, no. It's called, who needs
theology? It's what it was. Andthe sort of the idea was,
everybody's a theologian likeyou. Everybody has ideas about
God and who he is, and theBible, it's just how formed are
they, how specific, how howconcrete, how much are they
(43:33):
researched and informed by, byactual, you know, scripture, I
guess you could say so, I think.
Jeff Leake (43:40):
And ultimately the New Testament. The more you, the
more you immerse yourself in theNew Testament, the reading of
the book of Acts, of theGospels, the epistles that Paul
writes and Peter and John andthe others. The more you're,
you're you're rooting into earlychurch, thinking, yeah, right,
which is really where we want togo. Okay,
Unknown (43:56):
next steps for you. Now at this point, because we've
talked a lot about the splintersof the church and why, there are
different things. And we've sortof set laid out some criteria
knowing basic Christian truths,which is theological in nature.
And maybe you're like, Where doI even start? Well, I mean,
there's a bunch of freeresources. The Bible project is
(44:16):
a good place to learn aboutbooks of the Bible in terms of
what they actually say. It's nota theological website, or, I
should say organization so muchas is a hermeneutical one. We
talked about trying tounderstand what is being said
and what the intention of theauthors is. Yeah, Bible project
is excellent with that. Faosu isthey have a lot of free
Jeff Leake (44:38):
talks about that one. I know a lot of our staffs
into this now. Yeah,
Unknown (44:40):
there's a so I actually don't know who founded it or
formed it, but I know they'rebased out of Texas. I believe
one of the primary communicatorsnamed Nathan manokio, and they
have a bunch of free coursesthat are theology courses.
They're very accessible. Theyalso have degree programs that
you can get into. But it's youronline self study. Yeah, online
self study, it's a good way.
Getting. But my personalfavorite, that I'd recommend is
(45:01):
the Alice Park LeadershipAcademy.
Jeff Leake (45:04):
Yeah, okay, right.
That's that's some place, ifyou're attending here, or you
want to come in here, fromSeptember to May, there's a
school year. There's also globaluniversity, which is associated
with our denomination, which isa good place to find. So global
Unknown (45:15):
university is a bachelor's or associate level
program, but they have a option,yeah, but that's called Berean
School of the Bible, right?
Which is the same essentialmaterial in the courses, but
it's unaccredited, meaning thatyou can, you can spend a
fraction, like less than a 10thof the price, to get educated
without actually having a degreein Bible and theology.
(45:38):
Regardless, you don't have to goso, so, so hardcore, if you
don't feel like that's whereGod's leading you, but you
should know the basics, yeah.
And if you don't, that's not ajudgment, it's just say, Hey,
this is a great year to say, Iwant to learn about who God is,
and I want to start to, youknow, hammer out what I believe
about Scripture. Yeah. And
Jeff Leake (45:58):
if you belong to Allison Park Church, or a church
that's in the same flow as weare. You might want to go to
ag.org, which is the Assembliesof God website, which will tell
you some of the history anddoctrine of this organization
that we're part of. We'll getagain, every denomination is
imperfect in some way. Nodenomination is the Church that
Jesus started. Right, right?
But, but if you're in one, ifyou're in a church that's in
(46:20):
one, it's good to know theframework of that too. Probably
your church's website has somedoctrinal statements on it too
well. And look at that. Yeah,
Unknown (46:27):
absolutely, by the way, you know, I think there's a lot
of videos circling the internetthat are different other
different religions, debunkingthe Bible, debunking, you know,
Paul talks about being able tocorrectly handle the word of
truth. That's that's part of whywe need to know a little bit of
theology. If all you're doing isin taking and being fed from
sound bites and clips andpreachers online.
Jeff Leake (46:46):
If someone has said something on a little clip
that's disturbed you and said, Inever knew that was true, it
might not be true. It might notbe true. Yes, yes. So don't,
don't let tick tock be yourtheological framework
Unknown (46:58):
for your informant. I mean, if, if they, if they
triggered you
Jeff Leake (47:01):
so that you want to learn more, that's good, but
just don't take what's said onthe internet as gospel.
Unknown (47:06):
Oh, man, they're really it's sort of like if somebody
had said something with an edgyanti establishment type of tone.
You're like, wow, they've beenlying to me. Yes. Like, no,
maybe they're lying to you rightnow. Yes, right. You know what I
mean, more likely they're lyingto you right now. And
Jeff Leake (47:21):
that's why. So there is there, by the way, the song
that we mentioned earlier, Ibelieve in God, our Father, is
called this. I This, I believe.
And it's by Hillsong, and it'sbased on the Apostles Creed,
which is another one of thoseancient creeds like the Nicene
one, that is one of the creedsthat is like a skeleton for
Orthodox theology. Good. I loveit, yeah? So you can go to
Spotify and type in this Ibelieve, and sing some good
(47:44):
theology if you want. Yeah,
Unknown (47:47):
okay, sort of to spin it all back around the
denominations that we haveformed for a lot of different
reasons. But if you're trying tofind out who's right, you have
to start to learn the Bible foryourself, right? And if you want
to be safe and make sure thatyour your family is in the right
spot, that you're healthy andgrowing, because it's not just
(48:08):
like, well, I feel like I'mlearning or I feel community.
You could feel great communityin a lot of cults, which is why
people end up, in part why theyjoin them. Yeah, so, you know,
learn the Bible. Learn what theWord of God says and learn what
the church you're in believes,learn what the church you're in
believes, that's also a goodthing. And we're not
recommending that you leave justfor anything like, oh, I
disagree. If it's a small thing,it doesn't necessarily mean that
(48:30):
that's the wrong place for youto be. There are, there are,
like, tier four issues that it'slike, ah, do we believe the same
thing about pre trib Rapture?
Or, like, there's like, youknow, really fine details that
maybe aren't worthdisfellowshipping. You could
say,
Jeff Leake (48:45):
Yeah, but there are some guy that said this, Dave,
this just popped into my head asyou were talking. He said, this
is actually a good summary forhow do we deal with people of
differing opinions, because yousaid, you don't just jump out
with any difference of opinions.
He said, Whoever this was. Inessentials, we have unity. So in
the key things, yeah, inessentials, we have unity. And
(49:08):
in non essentials, we haveliberty, which means you have
the right to disagree withsomething like, like our last
episode on predestination,that's non essential if you
believe slightly different, it'sokay, right? In essentials we
have unity. In non essentials,we have live Augustine. And in
all things, we have charity,which means in all things, we
love each other. So inessentials, essential
(49:29):
theological orthodox doctrine,we have to be unified on that,
because that's the the keys towhat it is to be a Christian.
The Augustine
Unknown (49:37):
was one of the church fathers. And essentials, unity
and non essentials, liberty andall things charity, yeah.
Jeff Leake (49:43):
And he was a leader in the fifth century, which is
part of the first 500 years ofthe church, right? So, um, yeah,
I think that's a good summarystatement. That is a good
summary statement, yeah. So yougot to know your essentials. Got
to know your essentials, right?
That's kind of the baseline, notin everything, and in
everything, regardless of. Whothey are, where they're coming
from. You gotta have love, yeah?
Because that's the defining markof the behavior and attitude and
(50:06):
disposition of a Christian,yeah.
Unknown (50:08):
And truth, absent of love, is just mean spirited, and
it's unlike Jesus, right? Sothat's, that's what we strive
for. Anything else you want to.
Close on Merry
Jeff Leake (50:18):
Christmas, everybody. Hope you have an
amazing holiday season. We lookforward to next year in season
six. Yeah, and
Unknown (50:25):
again, we would love to open presents of five star
reviews that we can shout outyour names in this new year
won't be this next episode,because we will already have
that recorded before, before theNew Year's. You know, New Year
actually comes. But we wouldlove to say thank you for
helping us spread the word. Italk to people all the time who
are always like, I want to helpyou. I'm just not sure how to do
(50:46):
it. You know, if you're not surehow to do it, and you're
listening to this, and you'regonna see your family, ask your
niece or your nephew or yourgrandkids, they will help you.
Hey, help me leave a five starreview on this. They'll help you
figure that out. And I know thatthat sounds like a pain in the
butt. Maybe it's gonna like, I'mnot even sure it's worth it. It
really worth it. It really isworth it to us, because this
helps us to become easier tofind and access as we want to
(51:09):
share resources with everybody.
So you can like and subscribe.
If you're on YouTube, you canleave a five star review. If
you're on any kind of podcastplatform, you can share this
with your friends. You can textthem the link. There's a little
arrow to send this through text.
But whatever you do, we wouldsuper appreciate it. So again,
we'll just say, one more time,happy holidays. Enjoy your
Christmas. We'll see you guysagain next year. Bye.
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