ep10 Chris Wynters is authentic af

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
I was walking through an airportwith my friend and coworker,
Micah, when he mentionedsomething from a book He had
been reading that Gen X was theonly generation so overly
concerned with being authenticwith the concept of selling out.
Not that authenticity as adesirable human quality isn't a
thing.
But authenticity to the core asa hill to die on in a field of

(00:23):
strangers was really a thing.
In one of my favorite podcasts,60 songs that explained the
nineties, the host, Rob, istalking about this in multiple
episodes, one about Green Day'sBasket case, and another in a
conversation with Courtney.
Love.
That Courtney love aboutNirvana's, smells like Teen
Spirit and the nineties with itsvolcanic explosion of grunge and

(00:48):
indie and bands like those oneswith iconic front men, like
those ones were riddled with theweight of what a sellout was.
Yeah, I had to use air quotesaround sellout.
I won't get into it.
This isn't a podcast about that.
But in that airport, Micah, andI totally understood.
We're old enough to seeourselves shoulder to shoulder

(01:08):
with millennials, gen Z.
We get it.
They're right.
Wayne's World was my favoritemovie in 1992, and Mike Meyer's
character got up and walked offthe set of his own indie
basement cable TV show.
Once the network bought it,changed it, and rather than be
considered a sellout, he left.
Nobody cares about a selloutanymore.

(01:28):
We wouldn't have influencers ifwe did.
But authenticity, we still seemto be holding court over
authenticity.
The more fabricated oursurroundings become, the more
important his value becomes.
Our guest today is Chris Wyntersand Chris's career.
He is fronted a very successfulindie band captain tractor from
the nineties who continue toplay and if he happened to

(01:51):
attend an in between oil hockeygame or a CFL game somewhere.
You've probably heard the lastSaskatchewan Pirate, and you
didn't even know it.
He has been the executivedirector for Alberta Music at
Provincial Music Association,and he's currently the manager
for acclaimed band the DeadSouth and for singer songwriter
Nyssa.
I've known Chris in all of thoseroles, wearing all of those

(02:12):
hats, and he is the same exactguy in every situation, in every
conversation.
By Chris's own admission.
It doesn't matter in thisbusiness how hard you sell it.
If it isn't real and doesn'tconnect with someone in a real
way, they ain't buying it.
Authenticity still mattersperhaps more than ever.

(02:36):
My name is Glen Erickson.
This is almost famous enough.
Thank you for spending your timewith us.
This is Chris Winters.

Glen Erickson (02:59):
thank you Chris, for joining me and right off the
bat, when I first startediterating this, idea of mine to
actually dip my foot into thislarge pool of podcasting, uh,
you were the guy I went to.
You were the guy I talked to.
I sounded off to, built ideas,conceived of a method of us

(03:19):
doing it together.
went ahead and did it on my ownand, and this is a thing I
always thought we'd have fundoing together, so I am
extremely appreciative.
A, that you were not offended orhurt and, and b, that even
beyond that, that you'd bewilling and excited to come and
join me and be a guest and talkabout your career and stuff.

Chris Wynters (03:38):
Well, I think first of all, Glen, um, I think
the, the, the feeling I had whenI started, especially seeing
you, on this thing in a realway, like when I started to see,
you know, graphic show up on myInstagram feed, it was a sense
of relief to be honest.
Like, I just don't know if Iwould've had any bandwidth
speaking of bandwidth to, uh, tohandle it.

(03:58):
Anyway, uh, congrats on gettingthis thing off the ground, Glen.

Well, I appreciate that a whole bunch
and appreciate you a lot.
So I wanna lay the same thing Ido with most people I talk to.
I love just laying thegroundwork of your career and
I've known you for long enoughto have gotten a great set of
diverse stories, which, uh, I'vealways loved and enjoyed.
And I just think that you havesuch an incredible wide view on

(04:22):
what this entire life lookslike.
So, uh, there was a part of methough, bud, that thought about
us having a conversation inreverse.
instead of chronologically likeI do with a lot of people.
So actually I'm gonna startthere, but first I'm gonna give
like the flyover'cause I have tomake an assumption.
Everybody doesn't know what Iknow.
So, Chris Wynters career, sincethe nineties had like three

(04:46):
facets of, main characterenergy, which was your, your
band, which was kind of thebeginning stuff of Captain
Tractor.
and then you had a long legwhere you sort of moved into
actually working in the industryas the, uh, executive director
of Alberta Music, the ProvincialMusic Association.
And then you've embarked on acareer, you know, with a

(05:10):
company.
That is carving, you know, apretty significant, part of
work.
At least work into the Canadianmusic and international
landscape really with sixshooter, six shooter records in
a couple of capacities.
So those, when I look, evensomeone knowing you as well,
feel like these sort of mainpivot parts, of a career.
But in between that you've gotlike, all kinds of cool

(05:32):
accomplishments in the theaterworld, which is part of your
first loves and, writer, actor,writer director.
I think you've probably done allthe things.
You've probably done the lightsand you've done the sound
engineering on some things andyou've scored and.

Never night lights.
Glen.
Never lights, but

Oh, good.
Okay.
definitely the scoring as well,the music part of it.
I know.
And, uh, and then you opened astudio, you built a studio in
your backyard and were a bigpart of production and recording
for a lot of Alberta musicartists, especially for a
significant period of time,which is also, you know, a
career to itself for a lot ofpeople.
So, and I've probably missed ahandful of related industry thi

(06:12):
things maybe in,

well.
It's pretty

okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

I

What.

it all as just like, how did I, how did I pay
the bills, right?
Like, you know, I, I, I actuallywent, it all started as like, I
went to, you know, decided Iwanted to go to, well, I had
rock bands when I was in highschool and stuff, so I was into
that.
And then I was gonna go to themusic program at MacEwen in
Edmonton, and I accidentally dida couple plays in Grand Prairie,

(06:37):
Alberta where I was growing up.
And, uh, one of the directorsfrom the theater program at
MacEwen said, you should go intotheater.
So I went, sure.
Okay.
It was just kind of like, youknow, I kind of, I think that's
always been.
What I've been about is justkind of like for opportunities
and seeing, um, you know, seeingwhat's possible.
And then, I don't know, figuringout how to, I, it's always sort
of figuring out how can I livein this space?

(06:58):
And, uh, so I, you know, I did,I did go to theater school.
I did come outta theater school.
I did work as an actor and, youknow, got my equity card and had
a film agent in Calgary and didfilms and, theater.
And then I started this band,well, I had a band called the
Braven Foolish before CaptainTractor that I started with.
Scott Peters from, uh, who's my,been my partner in music for 35

(07:20):
years.
and I started this rock band.
And then, know, that merged intoCaptain Tractor, kind of back
extently.
We, we were sick of takingourselves seriously as a rock
band.
So we started a, a silly bandfor free beer.
And of course, I.
soon as you're being authenticand having fun, that's when an
audience develops.
And all of a sudden we werecalled Captain Tractor and we

(07:41):
had a record and we'd sold, youknow, 5,000 units of this
record.
And, uh, it was all of a suddenwent, oh my God, I guess I'm
guess I'm gonna follow this pathfor a while.
And then, you know, captainTractor did six years of really
serious touring, like 150 to 200shows a year for six years all
over the world.
Uh, we sold, I don't even know,tens of thousands of records

(08:02):
including East De Sson, whichwas, uh, a gold record in the
nineties.
And, uh, you know, we all, webuilt homes and had families
and, you know, bought cars andstuff all from selling records
and playing shows.
So, you know, like we weren'tsuper famous or anything, but
we, uh, we were almost famousenough, Glen, that's what we

Oh, I love it.
So perfect.

No, we

Okay.

you know, we were able to do it.
We were able to travel aroundand all over the place, you
know, and have a good

Okay, so I'm gonna do this differently just
because you and I just alwayshave organic conversation and I.
I don't feel some need that Ihave to, hold a timeline or some
version to tell a good storywith you.
So we started chronologicallyanyhow, so this is perfect.
But because you've already saidtwo things that I want to dig
into with you, Chris, so I'mgonna make sure I try to

(08:53):
remember them.
the first one I love is yousaid, you know, there was
somebody at the school who waslike, you should try theater,
and so you did.
And like you said, you've alwaysbeen a person who's looking for
opportunity.
So this is an interesting factorof how people, I think, not just
in our industry, in music, butin a lot of places in general
industries.

(09:14):
A lot of us, when we'rediscovering either our likes,
also our passions even to thatlevel or just the things we're
good at because the, everyonetosses the passion word around
these days.
Do what you're passionate about.
Most of us just are trying tofigure out what we're good at,
especially when we're in ouryounger years.
and if somebody sees it andrecognizes it, don't you think

(09:36):
it often feels like a huge opendoor and that's why you walk
through it and that's how youget there.
Is that sort of how that feltfor you?
And I'm, I guess what I'mwondering is, did it feel like
you were going after those rolesor did the things you were doing
just land you in a place wheresomeone either made a suggestion
or opened a door, if you knowwhere I'm kind of getting at
with that.

I think, yeah, I, you know, when a, when an
opportunity is presented likethat, yeah.
When you're young and, and, uh,you're trying to figure it out,
it, it's, know, you, you're notsure when you're in your
twenties and your early twentiesand you're outta high school and
you're trying to go, what am Igonna do now?
yeah.
If somebody comes along andsays, you should try doing this.
That's a, that's a really good,uh.

(10:18):
Indication of what direction youshould go in.
And, uh, I, I always jumped inlike a hundred percent into
everything.
You know, I really, I was reallyset.
I was gonna go to do my master'sdegree in acting at York
University in Toronto, and thenCaptain Tractor took off, you
know, and, I, you know, calledup the school to say, Hey, could
I get a year?
you know, check in with you guysnext year if I want to do this

(10:39):
master's program next year?
And, and they're like, sure.
And then I don't think I evercall them back, and every time,
one of those doors has openedup, it's always been, you know,
I, I always think about that.
The studio was the thing likethat.
I always, I've been recordingmusic since I was 16.
I had a, a.
Quarter inch, eight track reelto reel deck that I bought with
like every penny I had when Iwas a young guy.
And I recorded lots and lots ofterrible songs for, for five

(11:02):
years on that.
But it was really lovely.
And I still have that debt tapedeck, but like when, know, we
got into recording, we made somany records with Captain
Tractor and in that process ofmaking those records, I learned
about engineering sound.
And you know, coupled with theexperience I had on recording my
own songs and opened thisrecording studio with James
Murdoch.
And then we did that for a whileand that was really fun.

(11:23):
We produced 30 or 40 recordsover five years in that space.
And, uh, some that I'm really,really proud of.
you know, I still go back andlisten to that I think are great
records.
You know, some that, know, paidthe bills for sure and will
never disclose which or which,but, um,

That's what makes you gentle.
Good for you.

And then, you know, and then the Alberta music
job came up and that was kind oflike, you know, with James and
my partnership in the studio,you know, I tended towards
executive producing things andsort of putting the bands
together and then trying tofigure out what each artist was
gonna do after, and maybe tryand make connections for them
with, you know, labels or withagents or whatever.

(12:04):
And it was kind of a thing, youknow, I remember the job,
posting came up and Murdoch cameinto my, into the studio and
said, Hey, you'd be really goodat this job.
And I was like, oh, way.
Gimme a break.
No.
and then over the course of acouple days, I was like, whoa.
Hey, wait a minute.
This is kind of an interestingYou know, at the, at the time,
you know, I, I was working in mybackyard in a studio and getting
paid.

(12:25):
And, and, you know, writingshows and still acting and
doing, you know, I'd never, I'dnever been in a boardroom
really, except if it was usedfor like a, an audition for a
film or something like that.

Yeah.

um, the idea of going in and having an office
and working and having staff anddoing all this kinda stuff just
seemed like this sort of goingto the moon or something like
that.
So I was like, yes.
And I, I also thought, hey, if Ican connect, you know, people
with, from the studio, uh, tothe outside world of the greater
music business, uh, you know,maybe this is a thing I could
do.
And, and also, you know, my ownband Captain Tractor had had

(12:58):
some success, so could take someof those, some of the knowledge
I had from that and kind ofmaybe get that out to the
membership of Alberta music.
And lo and behold that, you

Yeah,

harder than getting, uh, elected, you know,
prime Minister to get that jobpretty much at the time.
So it was

well, I mean it was, we've talked obviously
personally and I just think it'sinteresting the way you just
sort of set that whole piece up,by the way, which was, I was
doing this and so when it camearound I was interested and what
you connected was I was doing athing where I knew a bunch of
people and I had some experienceand I really enjoyed connecting

(13:35):
all of those pieces and thosepeople together.
Which, it feels like the way youjust described it was a bit of
an undersell, if I can behonest, Chris, like at the time,
I remember my exact words in aboardroom with an actual board
who was working on who to hirewhen it comes down to the final
people was, I wanted a person inthat leadership role who was

(13:57):
great in the room.
That's literally the term I usedover and over.
I said, Chris Wynters is greatin the room.
And I, I was less concernedabout somebody who knew how to
cross their t's and dot theiri's on grant applications and,
run some local programmingreally well.
We could find other people to dothat, but I was really
interested in growth through.

(14:18):
Like vision and leadership and Ithought you had all those
qualities and you sort ofslightly alluded to them in
talking about yourself there.

that.

but I want, yeah, I wanna amplify them.
'cause those were reallysignificant qualities that you
had, which I think landed youthat job.
yeah, so obviously you pickthose up through some of these
things over the years.

of like, like thinking about what like, you
know, if you think about that,you know, where I was at the
time, you know, it was like, 40years old and kind of like,
okay, what am I gonna do now?
And, uh, it presented itself inthe idea, like you're saying,
like, like, okay, I live inAlberta.
I've lived and worked out ofEdmonton, Alberta my whole life.
I love the city, I love theprovince.
The idea of, like, I alwaysenjoyed Calgary and my band

(15:02):
Captain Track, I always didreally well in Calgary.
And so I, I spent some time inCalgary doing theater too, and,
and always enjoyed my time downthere.
And I just thought, wow, itwould be really fun to like.
Travel around and, and, uh, andtry and promote this province
and its music industry.
And the idea of theinternational, possibilities of
connecting artists to aninternational, audience was

(15:24):
something that I found reallyexciting too.
And it just, it's really amazinghow, you know, many of those
connections I made, evenprobably in the first like, you
know, year at Alberta Music arestill the people that I'm
connected with now still everyday, you

Yeah, I mean, it feels like there's not really an
education for most of this.
Like you don't go to school Buta lot of our roles that evolve
in the music business come from,having a great sense of building
relationships and making goodconnections with people and then
having the foresight to beactive and get, To get shit
done.

(15:58):
Let's just say like, um, there'sa lot of people who just talk
and sit on bar stools and thenthere's people who get shit done
what part of that is true foryou?
What, what part of that has sortof run true throughout your
career?

yeah.
I, I say relationships areeverything.
In anything you're in.
I think it's all aboutrelationships.
I, I think of my job, or I'vealways thought of my job in
whatever role that was at thetime as being, connecting with
people.
I've always thought about it asbeing, building up this, you
know, international gang offriends.

(16:30):
You know, like, and, um, I thinkthat, that, so like, I never
think about going into a roomand it's networking.
It's about,

Yeah.

like, oh my God, I met this thing and all my
friends are here.
Like, and oh, I wanna meet somenew friends.
Like, it's never, it's reallyhonestly, like, there's no, it's
like, there's nothing thathappens in anything that you
can't make anything happen.
you can only a conduit forsomething that's gonna happen.
like, you can't like force anartist onto an agent that isn't
gonna like the, the artist.

(16:58):
It's never gonna work.

Yeah.

you can do is kind of present the artist to
the agent.
And if they're like, Hey, youknow, hey, I think this would be
a good fit for you.
And if they, if they're into it,they're into it, and then, then
that's a relationship and thatworks.
But, you know, my point is thatI think the more of that sort of
knowledge and the more peoplethat you get to know over your
life, sometimes I, oh, I met anagent like 15 years ago and all

(17:22):
of a sudden I see this artistthat's like, oh, I think that ar
that agent that I knew 15 yearsago would love this artist.
And so it's just like that kindof stuff, it builds up over the
years.
And, and, um, I think that's whythis sort of, as you get older
and, and more experienced, partof it is that you're older and
more experienced.
And part of it is that justyou've had, access to more and
more people over the years andmore and more relationships over

(17:44):
the years.

Yeah.
I do think though the maturity,the sort of the growth from
experience though, is capturedin the way you're able to
express that, which is,basically asserting that the
work you do right now might havefruit 15 years later.
the work you're doing,especially when it's relational
work, does seem to be likeyou're playing the long game,

(18:07):
like you're investing in thefuture so often, not just now.
I also caught a really greathint and, and point about
authenticity.
When you say, I'm not at anetworking event to network, I'm
here to like, see some oldfriends and make some new ones.
which, you know, could be just afunny way to spin it unless it
comes across as authentically asthe way you just said it, which

(18:27):
is that that's really what it isand what it's really about.

I, I mean, you could sound pretentious, like, I
mean, it does sound kind oflike, oh yeah, right, Chris.
Like, that's right.
But I mean, but I, but the truthis that if I'm at a thing and I
don't feel like going to thisnetworking thing or whatever it
is, I it won't be successful.
I won't, it won't be good.
you can't, you can only beauthentic.

(18:51):
I think if you, if, if you'renot authentic, It's obvious and,
um, things don't happen, youknow, and it's, it's, it's, I
don't know.
I mean, maybe, I think maybewhen I was young, I would go
into these things.
I remember going to likeCanadian Music Week when I was
in, you know, in a, in a rockband when I

Yeah.

mid twenties.
And I'd be like, I'm not gottado this and I gotta do this.
And it just doesn't ever work.
And part of that's'cause you'reyoung and nobody cares, and part
of that's because you justdon't, you're obviously just
trying to, to work the room orwhatever that is.
Right?
And, and, um, uh,

And you don't know how.
Absolutely.
You don't know how, but you arefilled with some zealousness,
uh, to try to make it happen,right?
like you've been in so many ofthese rooms, and it would be
great to hear you talk aboutthrough your career what some of
those important rooms that youmight end up in are and what

(19:43):
you've learned, if is that toobig and why?

like, I started, when I started out, I remember
one of my first trips, I went onfor Alberta music was to Folk
Alliance and it was in Toronto.
It was like one year when it wasin Toronto.
Usually it's in the States, itwas in, it was in Montreal this
year.
But, um, so I went to Montrealand I remember like, sort of si
looking at some of the thingsand I was like, oh man, like
there's a folk DJs thing goingon.
And I was thinking about folkDJs like, wow, that sounds kind

(20:08):
of cool.
thinking that it meant therewere gonna be spinning some
vinyl in the lobby and it wasgonna be like, and it was gonna
be like some scratching andstuff.
And then I went to this thingthinking it was gonna be this
groundbreaking, progressive likething that I'd never heard of.
Folk.

(20:28):
Folk, dude.
Geez, that's so cool.
And, um, and then I realized,oh, and I just walk in and it's
a bunch of like.
70-year-old dudes with beardsand it's like, oh, they're the
DJs from like, all these NPRstations.
Um, now I get it.
So like, I just wanted to pointin like, it's like, like you
kinda learn as you go andsometimes it's like you just,

(20:49):
it's trial and error and um,it's fun.
But I guess, I guess my pointwith that is that it's like, I
still feel like I'm learninglike that.
Like when I go into a new spaceor there's a bunch of people
that I don't know, like itreally is like, it takes time to
kind of sort out who, okay, whatare the politics of this space
and who's, you know, what,what's everybody want, what's

(21:10):
everybody's agenda?
That kind of stuff.
But, um, I guess, you know, it'sbeen team building.
I said, you know, earlier inthis chat that, um, I still
connected to some of the peopleI first met.
You know, I.
15 years ago and, and the firstdays at Alberta Music, not quite
15 years ago.
But, um, and that's true.
You know, and, and everythingsort of, you know, it's all

(21:30):
about team building and talkingabout like the dead South now.
you know, there's anotherartist, so, you know, like I met
that, I met them for the firsttime in my Alberta Music days.
You know, like they,

Mm-hmm.

where, you know, when, when Alberta Music was
doing a, an event at South bySouthwest Say, or The Great
Escape in Brighton, England, orat Reaper Bond or wherever, we
would off and partner with theother music industry
associations and.
Breakout West, so Manitoba,Saskatchewan, Alberta, bc
sometimes the territories.
And very often, at least throughthe first couple of years, we

(22:05):
would partner with Saskatchewan,with Sask music.
And, uh, we had this brand atevents like South by Southwest
called How the West was onethat, our friend Derek Bachman
kind of started up.
And so I remember meeting the,the Dead South guys the first
time at one of these things.
And they were just on a, on abill.
So there were, you know, threebands from Alberta and three
bands from Saskatchewan, andthey were one of the bands.
And I thought that, oh, theseguys are cool.

(22:26):
And, you know, you get to knowthem and you see them at
different things around theworld.
And then they become sort oflike, you know, one of your like
conference buddies you mighthave a beer with at a thing.
So when it turned out that theywere looking for a new manager,
you know, it just, it was like,Hey, I already knew these guys.
And, and um, know, we.
At six shooter thought it would,you know, they'd be, they were a
really good fit and they werealready kind of interested in

(22:46):
six shooter as a label and allthat.
So, but I, my point is that it'slike, you know, even that
relationship come about becausea, it's, it is, it's all a long
game, Glen, all of it, you know,like, it's really hard.
Like, I like looking for othermanagement clients, you know,
like I'm, I'm constantly lookingand it's incredible how, you
know, you can go into abasement, you know, pub venue in

(23:08):
Northeast London in short itch,you know, see some artists
playing on a stage in front of50 people and go up to the
bathroom and go, Hey, you weregreat.
That's great.
You know, what's, what's yoursituation?
They go, oh, you know, justcheck my Insta.
And then, you know, you look attheir Insta, like say, oh my
God, they're signed to a labelin New York and their management
is this huge management.
It's like, uh, it's really,really, uh, a lot, you know?

(23:30):
the, the, the teams are comingtogether really early these
days, you know, like things arehappening.
Really, the development ofartists happens, starts
happening really early.
the rooms are, are, are foreverchanging, but they're always
kind of similar people in them.

Yeah.
Well, I mean, that's a greatthread to tie.
I was gonna ask, do you thinkthat perception, just from that
anecdote of, this band was had,it has a whole machine behind
it, but it gave you theappearance of an up and comer,
right.
That this is at the stage oftheir career where they might be
looking to build a team.
They're obviously really goodand they're, you know, have a

(24:03):
great response from the peoplein the room.
So it's worth that conversationand then, it generated a
surprise.
do you think the surprise hasanything to do that you and I
are of the same, age range anddemographic that we might have
established?
These sort of just versions ofbias that are hard to, maybe
they just come out where we justmake assumptions based on the

(24:25):
way we knew it always used to be

Oh, I see what you're saying.
Like you're like, you justassume that'cause somebody's
playing in a basement inshortage, that they don't have a
team yet.
Like

Yeah.
'cause I've had the sameexperience, Chris, I've gone to
a show or a club and, and sawthe opener or, and I assume
they're unknown.
And they're not unknown or evena more classical one right now
that happens to me literallyevery week is like my daughter,
whom we share music together allthe time now.
And She'll, and she gets excitedwhen she thinks she's in on the

(24:54):
ground floor with somebody.
So the other day she said, Idiscovered this new artist who
like, looks like they're justkind of up and coming and it's,
they're really cool.
And then I went and looked attheir Spotify and they had four
songs with over a millionstreams.
And I just said to her, I'mlike, in the world I live in
with quote unquote unknown upand coming artists, they, not

(25:15):
hardly any of'em have over onesong with a million streams yet.
And it's not like a millionstreams is.
Buying them a house, obviously,but I'm just saying it's in that
scale and maybe I'm looking atthat wrong again because of old
information or old bias, but theworld's changed that way and I,
I catch myself in it quiteoften.

Yeah.
Well, I, I think you know it,you never know, right?
Like, and there's also artistswho still come across sometimes
that have already, that, youknow, are, have gone quite far
and have a following and aredoing quite well that don't have
any team.
So, I mean, it's, it really islike, you know,

Hmm.

in Canada, I find it a little bit more like You
might find artists that don'thave teams yet that are, that
are doing quite well, maybe notwith streaming, but with, like,
building a live, live businessin that.

Hmm.

uh, in terms of like, you know, with the Dead
South, they did already have ateam when we came on board.
We just were more, you know, we,we just kind of came in as,
somebody that could help themget from where they were at,
which is, you know.
guys, four guys and a, a soundguy in a van, uh, driving around
to, you know, where they're now,which is, you know, guys and

(26:22):
eight crew in a, a bus and a,and a semi-truck going
everywhere.
And, uh, you know, that thattook a year and a half to go
from the, like happened reallyfast.
It was already on, there wasalready a trajectory, but I
don't think, you know, they,they definitely needed more of a
team to kind of get to the nextlevel.

(26:42):
And I think we came and kind offulfilled that for them.
But, uh, you know, in terms ofthem, you know, their first team
member was, was an agent inCanada.
And I think that's something I'mseeing more and more these days
is that the very often thefirst, the first team member
that's not inside the band, youknow, often, like I.
Somebody in the band is going toact as a manager.
Maybe several of the artists inthe band are gonna be managers

(27:04):
of different skills.
That's certainly how things werewith Captain Tractor when we
started.
Uh, and then, you know, that'sthe agent, you know, because the
live business is kind of thefirst thing that makes sense to
build.

Yeah.

you know, it, it, it, it's playing in front of
people is kind of the, the,that's the first most important
aspect to music, I think.
And then recording it and, and,and getting the recorded music
out is

Yeah.

thing.
but I, I, I kind of personallywork.
I mean, I know it doesn't haveto work like that, but
personally I understand thebusiness more an artist has a
live business you know, thatthat works in tandem with the,
with the recording sellingrecordings and, and, uh, and,
and so I, that's sort of where Igravitate and I know what the

(27:46):
dead South one.
the opportunity came out tomanage them, was like, I totally
get this band.
You know, like they're a roots,don't like that word, but like,
but they're kind of, they're,they're a acoustic, you know,
fun, live band.
yeah, and we, and, and CaptainTractor had been like that.
And, and literally like the, thefirst shows, and, you know, when
we took, we started working withthem in, December of 2017 and

(28:11):
they had a tour, coming togetherat that point, a US tour in
March of 2018.
So the first real tour that weworked on them with was a US
tour down the west coast of theUS And all the venues were like
a lot of the same venues thatCaptain Tractor had played, you
know, two, 300 cap venues.
And it's like, I know all thesevenues, it's gonna be great.
Well, the shows went on sale andthey all sold out in like 20

(28:33):
minutes.
And I was like, okay, this is,this is not like Captain
Tractor.
And at that point it diverged,we, we upgraded all the venues
and, uh, it, it, most cases theydidn't end up playing any of the
venues that Captain Tractor hadbeen playing.

Oh wow.

it was like a, it instantly was kind of like the
whole thing was already movingin a direction and we just sort
of throw fuel onto the fire andmake it, uh, go faster and,
build more

I mean, we've, we've alluded to a few
interesting things.
I just think about thedifference between the way
things used to be done and theway things are now in the
industry.
And you've had, I think, theprivilege in the span of time
that you've been doing this fromband to business like this to
see a lot of those changes.
Right?
I mean, so your bands,ironically that you're

(29:18):
full-time, mostly full-timehere.
I'm pretty sure they take up allyour time managing the Dead
South.
Uh, who people should definitelygo and check out if they haven't
in their incredible live show.
so, you know, I, I've, I havetrouble pigeonholing genre,
which is fine.
I mean, they don't want to bepigeonholed genre wise anyhow by
me.
But, there's familiarity topeople from various adjacent

(29:41):
things, right?
So there's the Stompy four guyscan just sit with their acoustic
instruments together upfront andyou know, mainstream influenced
music fans would feel likeMumford and Sons adjacent,
Versus, you know, people who aremore in the folk background
probably have a, a good handfulof people that they could
connect the stylings to.
When I went to see the show thatyou invited me to, it definitely

(30:04):
felt like more in the outlawcountry, folky country kind of
like in the, in the pure folksort of history, right?

are very like you know, like it's, it really is,
when you cut it down, it's, it'slegitimate bluegrass, you know,
like they don't, you know, they,they take, they take the craft
of songwriting and they takethe, and they're big fans of
bluegrass that come from thatwhole world.
not to totally speak for them,I, I don't, I just in terms of
their, their artist history andstuff like that.
But, you know, there are, thereare four guys from Regina

(30:35):
Saskatchewan that, you know,they decided to, their first
time they played was at an openmic, it

Yeah.

fun.
And their, their big aspirationwas to play, you know, a gig at
the exchange someday, you know,in Regina, like the venue.
And,

Yeah.

you know, and I, I kind of understand that, like,
'cause the same, you know, ouraspirations with Captain Tractor
were literally to like, get freebeer at Mickey Finn's on Sunday
nights.
You know, like, like, so I kindof get, going back to
authenticity again.
Like sometimes it's this, like,you just have something that
just, it's, it is authentic.
Like it, it works in an open micsituation and people go, Hey,

(31:11):
this is really fun.
I really like this.
And not that I was at any ofthose shows, but I have seen a
lot of footage of some of thoseearly shows of them doing it in
the, you know, playing inpeople's basements and stuff
like that.
It looks, you know, they'replaying some of the same songs
they're playing now.
Live and, uh, in front of, know,6,000 people in Prague.
just headlining shows, you know,6,000 people in Prague, not a

(31:32):
festival show.
You know, like this is the,it's, it's really wild to see,
you know, that authenticity toan international audience.
And, and, um, I don't know whatit is.
It's about, you know, it's aboutbranding, it's about, it's about
being commitment, it's aboutartistry.
It's all these things.
And I, you know, these guys arejust so, and they're very hard

(31:52):
workers.
But that's definitely the whereCaptain Tractor started.
You know, like let's make a bandand there's six of us in the
band and there's a sound personand We'll play a show and you'll
get a thousand bucks for thisshow and 2000 bucks for that
show, and then 50 bucks in thecase of beer for that show.
everything goes in a pot.
And how much money do you needto live?
Alright, I need 500 bucks amonth to live.
And so everybody pays.

(32:12):
It's kind of like we had thiscollective, and, and that's,
it's just the ethic of it.
It's not like, I mean, that'snot how things are working now,
but I think that there's stillthe idea that that's closer to
what a big company is like oh, Iplay a show for 2000 bucks and
everybody puts 400 bucks intheir pocket.
And that's, you know, and that'sit.
You know, the idea that you'rekind of growing something and

(32:34):
building something, it,definitely the, you know, how
how do you get from point A topoint B that, that, you know,
you have to sort of be growingthe nest egg.
And I guess, uh, I'm not surehow I got onto this from what we
were talking about, but, um,

You, you're talking about Captain Tractor,
this was the nineties, right?
This is the mid to laternineties or the later, later
nineties maybe.
but

in early nineties, but like

Okay.
Yeah.
Early.
Yeah.
So

Yeah.

a, a very sort of different culture, economy of
all of these pieces and time.
But I mean that, that wholeversion of a band that goes on a
road and sort of, develops theirchops saying gains in audience,
Alongside of what, like Gen Xerswho were sort of running wild at
that time had one of theirtruest and deepest, principles

(33:22):
was authenticity.
So it's not surprising thatyou're talking about that.
Right?
Um,'cause rock and roll was allabout like being extremely real
and, and not being a sellout ina number of the sub genres.
It was very high importance.
but especially that I'm gonna goon the road, right?
I'm gonna build an audience thereal way and only the real ones
will survive that way.

(33:44):
Um, I'm just wondering if like,you literally lived it and I,
and I think it's fun because ifpeople don't know and they need
to check it out, like Chris andCaptain Tractor.
You're currently bringing someof those old days back to life
and did some rerecording oforiginal recordings and are
gonna be playing some shows.
So that obviously probably feelsa little fresh for you right

(34:07):
now.
Pulling back on some of thememories.
So I'm curious, what can youtell people what it was like in
the nineties for more than justsix of us?
Jumped in a van and thought,Hey, someone's gonna pay us, you
know, a case of beer and 50bucks, you know, or the next
guy's gonna pay us a grand, it'sthe same thing.
Let's go do it.
What?
What if you can like, maybejust, I unpack

Sure.
I mean,

more.

I'm a bit facetious in saying that we
started it for free beer.
I, I, that's the truth.
But really was kind of like, itreally was fun and it was really
important to us to, to have funand, and, um, first of all, and
I, and not, you know, sound likea, you know, 56-year-old gen,
old Gen Xer.
I'm like, I'm one of the oldestin the Gen X.

(34:50):
You know, I think I got threeyears within the Gen X, uh,
generation.
But, um, know, grew up in punkrock, grew up, grew up the west
coast of Canada in the punk rockscene in Victoria with bands
like No Means No and DOA and um,bands.
So from over in Seattle like.
Like the Minuteman, oh, notMinuteman in the, there were,
there were Minneapolis, butlike, um, like, uh, the Yumen

(35:14):
and the Young, fresh Fellows,all these bands and, and there
was a lot of DIY going on then,and a lot of, you know, like
lots of cool things happening.
You know, people, I remembercoming to a show in Edmonton in
1986, uh, to see 10,000 maniacsand, and, uh, junior Gone Wild
was opening for 10,000 Maniacs,and they were in Edmonton Band.
And I, I, you know, and they hada record like on Vinyl for sale,

(35:36):
and the idea that be, uh, Iguess I, I, I was in this thing.
I never really, punk rock wasnot the kind of music I played,
And so seeing a band like Juniorand Wild Play a show, and they
weren't punk rock, and, and itwas, it was, they were
independent.
And, uh, that sort of blew mymind.

(35:56):
And it was years later that, youknow, uh, but anyway, we, the
one thing I would say is that.
I think that sort of 1991 to2000, maybe 1999, 2000 was
literally the golden age ofindependent bands releasing
their own music.
Like it really was the time whenyou had this sort of Venn

(36:18):
diagram of all these sort ofimportant things.
If there's, you know, media, thevalue of music, like, I'm trying
to think of all these things.
They all sort of the spot in themiddle of the Venn diagram.
We had, you know, maybe wedidn't have the internet like it
is today, but, you know, captainTractor was the first band to
have a website.
So, you know, you think aboutthe advantages you have over,

(36:41):
you know, and not everybody's onthe internet, so people don't
know that.
But the people that are are intoit.
So we were able to sort of usethe burgeoning internet through
all these university kids acrossCanada in this like.
Network of people, of fans thatwould like, do stuff like
petition, much music to play ourvideos and things like that.
Like nobody had heard of us and,and, uh, we had this sort of

(37:05):
underground following.
So, so, and you know, peoplewould buy a CD for 15 bucks from
you you could record it for, youknow, you can make a record for
10 grand or 20 grand and, butyou could just turn that money
around and like, you know, weput our first record out land in
1994.

(37:25):
We pressed a thousand copies ofit.
We sold a thousand copies inlike nine days.
So we pressed 2000 copies and wesold those 2000 copies in like
20 days.
And then all of a sudden we wereat Christmas of 1994 sold 4,000
copies of this record.
And we had, you know, 50 grandin the bank.
You know, we could have allbought a, you know, I mean

(37:46):
that's, anyway, uh, we couldhave bought a house, but, um,
you know, we didn't, anyway, we,you know, I don't, I I just sort
of put, putting that intotoday's perspective.
It's just not, it's just notthe, the math isn't the same,
you

It's not possible.
Yeah.

it's not possible.
So, but, so by the time, soyeah, we're, we're putting out
our, so in 1995 we put out arecord called East of Edson,
which, you know, we'd learned alot from the first record.
It was, you know, the firstrecord has got a lot of, lot of
flaws, put it mildly, uh, but,you know, there's some great
moments on it.
But we were ready, we were soexcited to get in the studio to

(38:21):
make this second record.
And, um, we had a year of, ofreally heavy touring and a whole
bunch of songs that were reallyroad tested and, and, um, you
know, you get, you put thisrecord out.
I remember Up The Hill was thefirst single from East of Edson,
and I wrote that song.
Just before Land, the firstalbum came out and we first
played up the Hill, which wasthe first single from the second

(38:43):
album at the album release Partyfor Land.
And we knew instantly that itwas gonna be, it was like the
kind of hit song that we wishedwas on the first record.
we had a long, we were reallyexcited to make the second
record.
So anyway, the, so East of Edsoncame out and we had in that
time, built up all thisinfrastructure.
for instance, we had, thiswonderful woman, Melanie Cheek,

(39:04):
came out of the arts andcultural management program at
McEwen and was working as, uh,doing her practicum with Captain
Tractor in our office.
We had a little office onhundred ninth Street, and, uh,
what.
Seemed like a good thing for herto do was, uh, oh, well we need
to distribute these records.
So she had, was like figuringout, okay, I'm going around the
hmv.
And then she just calling, youknow, the HMV in Saskatoon and

(39:26):
the hm v in Calgary and saying,Hey, can you take, you know, 20
of these, 20 copies of these and20?
And then they would, you know,they were selling and she was
replacing them.
And her practicum ended, youknow, after eight or 10 weeks or
whatever that was.
And she's like, Hey, you know, Icould keep doing this for you
guys.
Like what if I just chargedlike, you know, two bucks a unit
to you guys to put these intothe stores?
And we said, sure.
And she did that for a while andthen she's like, oh, you know, a

(39:48):
few other artists want me to dothis as well.
Do you mind if I make this abusiness?
And, uh, started Spirit RiverDistribution out of that, out of
our office, and that became afactor recognized national
distributor of, of, of music inretail.
And so those kinds of thingshappened.
we sold tens of thousands ofcopies of East of Edson.
It, it was just a massive, youknow, and then.

(40:11):
Bought the farm, which was ourthird record that came out in
1997.
We ordered 20,000 units to, tostart, you know,

Right.

we had 20,000 units on a hu on a flat that
showed up in front of ouroffice.
Like it's a, you know, the, thisis, and, and we sold, you know,
we sold all these records and wewere making 10,$12 a unit on
them.
So that's a

Yeah.
Just to put that,

a bunch of 20 somethings to be making, you
know,

yeah.
And I mean, to put that inperspective about that showing
up in your front doorstep.
If I think back to what a box ofa thousand.
Would've looked, actually theycame in five hundreds.
So a thousand together would belike someone getting, for as
many people can understand thecurrent reference.
It would be like getting, well,if that's a thousand, you said
20,000.

(40:58):
So you, it's like getting 20Hello Freshs delivered on a
pallet to your front door.
HelloFresh boxes, uh, of foodwould be sort of a sim, a
similar size reference, which isreally quite amazing.
I remember being excited justthe first time I ordered a
thousand CDs and getting thoseboxes and cutting'em open and,
uh, and then crapping your pantsabout how to sell them.
But, two, two things like that Ithink are funny.

(41:21):
One is, I just have to referencewhat you're talking about, being
the first on the internet, Ibuilt my first website, which is
like what gave me my career formost of my life.
But I built my first website in1995 when it seemed nobody knew.
I.
How to build a website yet, andI figured that stuff out.
And similar to what you weresaying, I'll never forget, one
of the first things I did wascreate a hypothetical band, uh,

(41:44):
that I always wished I had atthe moment, but I didn't have
anybody to play with.
And I called it Sons of Edbecause that's what I had always
wanted to call my, my band.
And I made this whole thing upand I was getting messages from
all around North America,because you're right, so few
people were on it and the peoplethat were, were so invested in
being the first, first tomarket, so to speak, of

(42:06):
discovering everything that wasout there.
Uh, so that's kind of funny.
It made me think of when youwere telling your little bit how
I, uh, I, I was like, I have

Did people think it was real bad?

a hundred percent like, uh.
I'm not joking when I say Imight feel like I, I made as
much buzz with that fake band asI've maybe made a buzz with
anything else I've tried.
Uh, I don't think it, it feltlike that at the time, but,
yeah, I think that's really cooland interesting.
Uh, I also think just the aspectyou're talking about of we did
this and then we did this andthen we did this and we just

(42:40):
kept cutting it and growing itin the nineties, like you said,
it was a golden age.
Absolutely.
But, you were definitelyresponding to the response that
you were getting and I think, Ilove that idea of authenticity
too, which, how everything seemsto ever become something in the
music business is because I.

(43:02):
There's an authentic responsebetween someone who's creating
something and the people whowant more of what they're
creating.
And we hear all kinds of nastybits that are about all the
things in between that, whetherit be like the people and the
layers that are created and thepeople in the business who try
to take advantage of that maybe.
And, and we've got all kinds ofgreat stereotypes over the last

(43:25):
decades and decades and decadesof everything that happens
around.
And in between that authenticinterchange, don't you think
between, you know, I wanna justreally make the thing that
represents me and that I wannamake and I find an audience for
it, right?

the thing that I find right now that's, it's like
everything's a platform now.
Everything's a, tech, you know,it's a tech and, and the tech
always gets paid first.
You know, like, what platformare we recording on here?
You know, like, we're on, we'rerecording this podcast on a
platform, and they're, they'regetting their money, you know?
Um,

True.

I just, not, not to, not to sort of, are things
that sort of going back tothinking about the difference
between then and now.
like there are things that Ithink about like.
Sure.
We were really successful inthat model and we sold lots of
CDs, physical CDs to people.
And at the time, he thoughtabout growth as being like,
let's conquer this city and thenwe'll conquer that city and then

(44:24):
we'll

Yeah.

city and we'll try and find like, you know, 200
people in each city to like ourband and buy CDs.
And that was kind of the way,and I often think, you know, if
we'd have, if we'd have thetools are there now, like I I, I
think with Captain Tractor wewould've been, we would've been
really into TikTok and wewould've been really, really

(44:46):
into to video messaging people.
We would've, like, we were intomedia before there was social
media.
Like we, we had a, we had anewsletter that we sent out to
thousands of people, four timesa year that was called the
Captain's Log.
And it was funny and it was likelittle.
Like, it was like a little, likea, it was set up like a little
kind of zine kind of thing

Yeah.

and it cost us like, you know, like if you
think about, you know, I thinkwe had at the height of it,
maybe three or 4,000 people onour mailing list, like physical
mailing list.
So if we did a, if we mailed outto all that at, you know, 40
cents for stamp and, you know,whatever it cost us to do the
pre, like, it would, it cost usa couple thousand dollars every
time we did a mail out.
But it had a little cutoutcoupon thing on the back so you

(45:29):
could order, you know, ordersome merch, order a T-shirt and
da.
And so we would make, you know,five or$6,000 every time we put
one of those things out.
But I just think about like,that's not very efficient.
And one of the things that I seenow, uh, is that.
The fact that we're still ableto, you know, yeah, six shooters
putting out our 30-year-oldrecord, um, east of Betson, our
gold record, uh, for the firsttime on vinyl.

(45:49):
Uh, it's coming out in OC inApril.
part of the reason why we'restill able to play and, and
people pay us money to do shows,and we still perform, you know,
five or 10 times a year, moresome years, is because of
Spotify and Apple Music.
And, there's something aboutthose digital versions of those
albums living on platforms thatanybody in the world can access.

(46:10):
So if somebody goes, oh, what isthis band?
And then just look, they, theycan go and like find and listen
to every single thing you'veever recorded.
Like that's kind of cool in alot of ways.
Like I, I, you know, I wish thatplatforms paid artists fairly
and I think that's somethingthat the industry is working
towards.
And I think we will get thereeventually.
Hopefully, maybe I'm a littlePollyanna on that, but like, I,

(46:34):
I do feel that it's, I, I, I aman optimist, so I'm gonna, I'm
gonna err on that side all thetime.
But

Good for you.
That's good.

that, that, that it's really, you know, these
platforms are also super useful.
And I was just at, I was just atlike a mother, mother show, uh,
at Roger's place, uh, inEdmonton last Saturday.
And, uh, I mean, there's a band,you know, there've been around
20 years and, and all of asudden things take off for them
on TikTok.
They've never played a arena, sothey didn't, never had a sold

(47:03):
out

I was so surprised, but you're right.
That's right.

right?
It's massive.

Yep.

a lot of opportunity to come from these,
these platforms, you know.

And I, I guess that's the other angle of the
conversation.
I'm interested in your take andyour perspective.
Again, having seen a number ofthe ways that people had to
figure out as, well, let's behonest, as technology is a
primary driver of change overthose 30 years that you've been
doing a lot of this stuff.
so as we've watched changehappen with technology platforms

(47:36):
or how we connect that personwho's creating with an audience
that wants what they'recreating, obviously the most
recent ones is like, well, foryou breaking out meant like you,
it was you, you had to get in abus, you had to do the legwork.
You had to create a newsletter.
You had to, first of all go upand meet those people.

(47:56):
The majority of them, probablyby shaking hands at a show or
something in a city to obtainand get their mailing address,
which there's completemultimillion dollar machines
built around just trying to likelead gen in today's day and age
and get people to give you theiremail address or something so
you can send them things.

(48:16):
different world, different time.

code with

Yeah.

show and people are

Yeah.

win a free

Whereas you did that work manually and built a
thing.
So same but different andcreated the connection and
created that opportunity foryourself, and to break out and
to sort of like get known, likeyou had a different version of
like, when do you kind of getover that?
First hump and then that secondhump, like you were referencing

(48:43):
it, like we sold this many CDsand then we had to keep
reordering so that when you madethe next record, you just
started from 20, like that'sgetting over a hump.
And there's been differentversions along the way of what
it looks like for when a band isactually in a career or in that
gray area of a career.
And I'm wondering, I would loveyour insight on, on that.

(49:05):
I, I find it interesting.
I'm wondering if other peoplewould find it interesting, like
you said, like maybe we couldhave bought a house with 50,000
in the nineties because we madethat much money off of being
able to sell physical productback then, which we can't now.
And I remember a band calledLowest of the Low that I really
loved mid nineties, and theirfirst record was for a long time

(49:26):
in Canada, the highest grossing.
Independent record, quoteunquote.
They sold so many units of itthat stood for quite a while.
And, um, but I don't know ifthey had a, I assumed they had a
career, like from my eyes at thetime, I just assumed this is
their life, their career.
Maybe they weren't.
Right.
So I'm wondering your insightand your perspective, over a

(49:47):
couple of these phases, if I canthink, like the late nineties
versus the two thousands versuscloser to now, how you've seen
that grow and change.

Well, first of all, side note, uh, I think
lowest to low is the band I'veseen more often than at any
other band.
I

Mm-hmm.

and every time I've seen them, with the
exception once, was in Toronto.
So just saying, I, I, I thinkI've seen them like over 30
times, 29 times in Toronto,probably 15 of those times at,
at sneaky ds.
So there you

Well, callback.
Callback.
I saw them at the exchange inRegina multiple times, which you
already referenced for the dead,so

come back through there a lot.

Yeah.

say the lowest low.
Yeah, definitely.
Like they sold a lot of records.
I mean, think about the barenaked ladies who sold a lot of
records like it was.
That was what was going on backthen.
And then, you know, LorenaMcKennan, like she was selling
records on her own.
She, you know, she decided toshoot her, you know, record deal
and sell records on her own.
And she did, you know, all thesepeople did really well because
they didn't, I think Lois Solodidn't actually sign a record

(50:48):
deal after that.
anyway, the, the, the ninetiesto the two thousands to, I, I
often say like, okay, so themath, if you do the basic math,
this is

Yeah.

the bumper side of it.
First, know, the basic math.
Let's just make it really supersimple.
You make a record for$10,000,you press a thousand CDs, you
sell'em for 10 bucks each toyour friends.
You make your$10,000 back,right?
Like, that's, that's just thebasic math.
So then the Apple Music, youknow, Napster comes in, the mp
threes invented at the end, inthe nineties, all of a sudden

(51:19):
people are stealing music offthe internet.
are burning CDs for theirfriends at shows.
I remember people coming up outto me saying, yeah, man, I
burned like 80 copies for myfriends of your record.
I love it so much.
And be like, oh my God.
Anyway,

Asked one, did you ever get asked to sign a
burned cd?

yes, and I

Yeah.

many of them.
Yeah, yeah.
But, um, but so, so then by thetwo thousands you're like, okay,
so say, say you can still make arecord for$10,000.
Well, the Apple Music model oflike 9 99, uh, sale, you know,
the sale of 9 99 for, for a, foran album on,

A download of an MP three.
Yeah,

one.
So, so you're gonna get fivebucks from that.
So all of a sudden you're, yougotta sell 2000 downloads.
To make your$10,000 back,

yeah,

you're gone as an independent band from Edmonton.
You've gone from having to sella thousand copies to 2000.
Well, if you take that into the2010s and the, you know,
Spotify, apple Music streaming,you know, at 0 cents.
So you're at, you know, yougotta stream your album to make
your$10,000.
It's into millions, millions ofstreams.

yeah.
Absolutely.

not gonna happen for an independent band.
So,

and good luck.

of it.

Good luck making it for$10,000 in the 2020s.

for sure.
Although, although, you know,

Uh,

make

I know.

at home.
I mean, the technology, youknow, arguably.
You know, in order to make areally good record in the
nineties, you needed to spendlike 40 or$50,000.
Really?
we did do that.
You know, like we, we did spenda lot more money on records
later in the nineties than wedid in the early days.
But, um, but the good side ofnow, I think, and what, starting

(53:07):
to happen or, you know, I, whatI see bands that, that are
successful, it's sort of about,you know, it used to be about
conquering each city at a timeand finding 200 people in a city
to be your fan and maybe 2000people eventually in each city
to be your fan.
Now it's about like, findingthose internet, like it's about
finding, you know, 20,000 peoplein the world to be your fan.

(53:28):
You know, like it's, it's the,the reach is so much farther and
it's not specific to location.
It's more about finding peoplethat are just into what you are
doing and finding that audiencethrough.
The platforms.
Now that doesn't reallytranslate into a live business.
It's pretty hard to, you know,if all of a sudden you have a
song blow up in, Bure, it's notgonna be very easy for you and

(53:51):
your band to get in a band anddrive there and play some shows.
But people are doing that andI'm seeing that.
And the other thing is justthat, be like I was talking
about social media, you know,like a lot of artists who are
really good at communicatingthrough these, I, I, I was, it
is interesting listening to DanMangan on your first, uh,
episode of this, but it's like,you know, your job as an artist

(54:13):
now is, you know, partly musiccreation, partly performance and

Content creator.

content creation and marketing and uh, you know,
because marketing has to beauthentic.
And so if you just, you know,even if you have a team at the
record label doing it for you,you

Yeah.
They're gonna call you.
Yeah.
They're like, you gotta get infront of the camera.
Yeah.

Yeah, you can't fake it.
And, and, um, and so there are,you know, I, I'm not gonna name
any specific artists, but like,there are several artists that
are really, really good at thisand doing really well
internationally and are, andhave massive careers.
without much in the way of radiosupport or support from DSPs
like the, from Spotify or AppleMusic, or support from tradi,

(54:57):
whatever's left of thetraditional media.
There's not a lot left of thetraditional media.
know, we don't really have musicwriters per se, everywhere in
the world anymore.

Yep.

I'm starting to see quite a few artists that
really are, are able to, youknow, make a real go of it.

Yeah.

I find that exciting and, and, and I, and
actually, you know, be workingwith the Dead South there, you
know, they're one of these kindsof artists that, you know,
they're not on the radio.
Probably a lot of peoplelistening to this podcast, I've
never heard of them.
But band sells two to 5,000 capvenues, headline shows anywhere
in the world.
Like it's like, and I, and usingthe platforms like, you know,

(55:35):
Spotify, you know, we can seelike the management team, we can
see, we can tell how manytickets gonna sell in Melbourne,
Australia compared to Amsterdam,Netherlands,

Hmm.

um, by the numbers of, of, of people
streaming the music over thelast 28 days in each of those

Yeah.

it's kind of like, um, the tools are very
useful too.
You know, they have a good sideand a bad side.
And, um, you know, you can reachan international audience and
you can use them to sort offigure out what's happening with
your music.
Like when you, you know,somebody in the nineties was
playing your song on the radioin Rast, you had no idea.
But

You had no, you had no data and you had no
analytics, uh, the to interpretdata.

got 5,000 Shazams in, in, uh, in Berlin, like,
what's going on

Yeah.
Yeah,

dig into it and figure it out, right?
And, and, um, there's somereally interesting things
happening with that.
But, um, the problem is that,you know, the amount of money
that, that these, these, theseplatforms are not profitable,
really.
Like if they were to pay

yeah.

share to the artists, they just wouldn't make
enough money,

so let me ask you this question then, It's, it's
2025.
I'm not even going to like talk,like I'm one of the kids.
Like, say I'm one of thesepeople who has been writing
songs for a really long time andI sort of understood the
industry to work maybe a certainway and I thought I had to get
out and play open mics or I hadto do some version like you

(56:59):
talked about how you had to golike city to city and sort of
conquer a city, right?
To build an audience further andfurther out and stuff.
So what, what do you feel rightnow if I'm writing songs and I'm
not gonna lock it into a genre,but if I'm making music and
writing songs, what do you feellike the first.
Step outside of your initialcircle of, cause the initial

(57:21):
circle in music right, is alwaysyour friends and family or
whoever has supported you.
And it's kind of like your yesmen.
and every artist has to takethat first step outside and see
whether anybody else actuallygives a shit.
and that can be pretty wide and,and pretty large step.
But I'm wondering what you feelright now.
What's that first step for theperson who's like, okay, I need
to go and test this out.

Hmm.
Well, I think that reallyvaries.
It depends on where you are, youknow?
I mean, maybe it is, and itdepends on the genre, it depends
on everything.
I think, you know, like usingthe platforms.
this is not my expertise at all,but, but I, you know, you see
artists platforms like TikTokand Instagram and, and others,

(58:03):
and, uh.
To, you know, push short bits,you know, short content versions
of songs out to people and, and,um, I, I really do think that
that's kind of the, the mostthat you're gonna get from your
time spent is to sort of workthe platforms and see, you know,
you can drum up, a fan base.
I also think that it's worthgetting, you know, playing live

(58:24):
shows and building things thatway.
And building in your backyardfirst I think is still
important.

And now you're working hands-on with bands
where you're trying to give theminternational opportunities and
make the connections so that youcan sort of build teams and
networks everywhere.
So I guess the big question forme is like, from what you've
seen then, where do you see theopportunity?
And I, I know the part of theanswer to this before I even say
it is, it depends, but, theopportunity, it's not just to

(58:53):
make that leap.
You know, the traditional leapas an artist, like when do I,
quit my job and do this?
I'm actually more interested nowin when does someone start to
actually make, try to make thoseinternational connections?
Is it much earlier in theircareer?
How do they make thoseconnections and opportunities
since they're kind of playing ina, the most global version of a
market that we've ever had?

Hmm.
This is a loaded question, and Iwork for a Toronto based record
label that has, uh, assigned,you know, entirely Canadian
artists.
I have never thought about thisbusiness or anything except on a
global level.
Like I, I, I live in Edmonton,Alberta, because I love
Edmonton, Alberta, and it's agood place to be an artist.
And it's, you know, I have avery high standard of living

(59:36):
because it's one of the mostinexpensive places to live in,
in Canada.
There's an airport.
you know, I, anyway, I, I knowwhen was at Alberta Music, not
to be.
I love Toronto.
Toronto's great scene.
I love it, it costs almost asmuch money to get in a plane and
fly to Toronto as it does to getin a plane and fly to London,
Heathrow.
And so I.

(59:57):
I always, and this was alwayssomething, you know, at Alberta
Music that we always talkedabout was like, okay, well
let's, you know, let's focus onEurope.
Let's focus on, and I mean, Iliterally am managing a band who
literally has only played touredCanada twice.
Like this is a band that'stoured Germany 25 times, you
know, and so they, they're aliving, you know, they're a
living success story of themusic Industry association

(01:00:22):
system.
You know, their first recorddeal was with the German labeled
Devil Duck, who, you know, yourtres used to

Glen Erickson (01:00:28):
Oh.

Chris Wynters (01:00:28):
to, yeah.
You know, used to come to, tobreakout West and, and saw them.
He actually saw them at CanadianMusic Week the first time.
But, you know, and I, I rememberat Alberta Music, we probably
had, you know, 10 that camethrough our system that.
Maybe they weren't making a tonof money, but they were going
over and coming back with, witha profit from doing, you know,
one or two or three tours a yearin Europe.

(01:00:50):
And, um, Canada's a reallydifficult country to tour.
And you, you need to, you know,it's kind of, it's 12 gigs, you
know, and, um, you need to be ata certain level to make it work.
And anyway, I guess my point is,you need to go after the
international people right away,you know, I think you're like,
you gotta grow in your backyard,but the farther away you go from

(01:01:10):
home.
This is my own personal feeling,and maybe not the feeling of
lots of people associated withme, but my all and my experience
has been farther away you gofrom home, the more interesting
and, and exotic you become, youknow, captain Tractor, our first
big tour was to New Zealand.
Sane, you know, like we went.
All halfway, literally halfwayaround the planet to tour for

(01:01:33):
nine weeks in a country that hasthe population of Toronto.
But the fact that we did that tothe people in New Zealand, you
know, we were, we were kind of,you know, we were exotic.
We were from Canada, we werefrom Western Canada.
Nobody has any concept outsideof Canada.
What that means.
It's like, we

Yeah.

of like and go, oh, I, you know, I really prefer
Bavaria to, some other state.
But like, we don't really thinkabout it like that because it's,
it, it, we just think aboutGermany, you know, oh, maybe
it's Berlin, maybe it's Hamburgor whatever, but you don't

Yeah.

details.
And so when you go awaysomewhere far away, even if
you're from like, you know,Wetaskawin Alberta, like that
becomes an exotic place to befrom.
And um, and sometimes in Canada,when you're trying to go to
Toronto and you're like fromEdmonton, people are kinda like,
oh, you're from Edmonton.
But if you're in London.
Edmonton seems just as cool asToronto.
So that's, that's, I throw itout there as a Canadian, as a

(01:02:26):
person working in the Canadianmusic business.

Well, that's a really good answer.

perspective, a western perspective.
Uh, love Canada.
But, um, you know, sometimes agood, a way of attacking Canada
is to, to get some good storiesoutside of Canada and bring them
back to Canada.
And then people like,

Yeah.

this is really interesting,

Well, we could obviously talk for hours about
every little facet of thisthing, but, uh, I also wanna
respect your time.
So I, I appreciate you takingthe time to sort of reflect on
the versions of questions thatI'm asking and give your
perspective.
And, I always love hearing whatyou have to say'cause you also
deliver it with a good dose ofhumility and appreciation for

(01:03:05):
everyone around you.
That you get to work for whichis why, it feels like I'm very
honored to have you on and to beable to have the conversation,

Appreciate

you even, even though you're

thing

my backyard.

did say earlier that, you know, there were some
records that we produced back inthe nineties that, um, in or not
in the nineties, in the earlytwo thousands, that, um, you
know, I really loved and I'mreally proud of, and some that
I'm maybe not so proud of.
And that the two wheat poolrecords and also the two, like
that crazy two singles that wedid, those are two, those are

(01:03:36):
some of my favorite records thatI worked on in my whole life.
So it, you know, I reallyenjoyed those times, Glen, and,
and, uh, back to, to the, thosesome special times, making those
records.

Yeah.

it.

Well, me too.
And I, I'm always superflattered that you say that.
I'm pretty sure I didn't lob upa softball to try and get you to
do that, but, um.

That was me.
I was just thinking,

Uh,

think that like his records'cause I sure did.

now buddy, you've been always the most supportive
and uh, I've always been deeplyappreciative of that.
And I think they were greatrecords too, and you helped
steer that and I'll always bedeeply grateful.
So thank you for your time,Chris, and, and your friendship
and, uh, appreciate this.
And who knows, maybe I'll haveyou on again.

(01:04:23):
Maybe I'll get to keep doingthis for a while and we can just
take it down a different rabbithole.

Right on man.
Well thanks.
Thanks mate.
And uh, congrats on the podcast.
Hope it goes well.

Okay?
Appreciate it.
Appreciate you.
Thanks Chris.
Okay, bye.
good evening, Lexi.
Hello.
So, I was thinking, by the way,you know what the real downside
of doing like a nighttimesegment with you and doing

(01:04:52):
podcasting is, is thatpodcasting does not lend itself
well to snacks.
That's what I was thinking.
cause I thought, why, whatshould I bring in here with me?
What should I have for snacks?
And snacks does not go well witha high, highly sensitive
microphone or any of that kindastuff.
So, oops, I

alexi (01:05:09):
into an A SMR segment,

now that this stuff's weird, I was like, I was
doom scrolling like on TikTokfor way too long.
And then there was like OliviaRodrigo.
Talking into the twomicrophones.
She was switching and scratchingher album like a vinyl, and then

alexi (01:05:29):
It's one of my least favorite parts of the internet.

my goodness.
That's terrible.
okay, well, so this will, that'sgood.
We're on the same page.
We'll never turn this into aSMR.
we are talking tonight aroundChris Wynters, Chris Wynters of
Captain Tractor.
Chris Wynters, currently themanager of the band, the Dead
South, who, you know, are doingvery, very well.
And, you and I were.

(01:05:53):
I invited to go watch the DeadSouth, uh, last time they were
here by Chris.
and so that was the first time Ihad ever actually got to see
them.
And they'd been around quite awhile for me to have never have
seen them play, which is alittle bit strange.
And did you think afterwards,like how has this never been a
Folk Fest band in all of thattime?
Like.

alexi (01:06:12):
I also, I had heard their name mentioned not even in
passing, I just heard their nameand never once I had, like, I
never listened to them beforethat concert and then I heard
them, I.
And saw them live, and I waslike, why have I not listened to
them before?
How have I

Yeah.
Yeah, they're pretty, prettyadjacent to lots of stuff.
But Yeah.
He's a guy that's always hadlike lots and lots of stories.
Anytime I can talk about anysubject in the music business at
any point.
he will have some version of astory that's related to a
person.
Like he knows somebody who knowssomebody or he actually knows

(01:06:49):
the person or it's all prettywild.
It's pretty cool.

alexi (01:06:52):
so I was just taking notes on the bus as I do.
I was writing down, it was sucha small part of the podcast,
but, you know, me and hearingone thing and then only being
able to focus on that.
But, it was, when you guys weretalking about, kind of the shift
to more signages and likedigital tools.

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

alexi (01:07:13):
when you guys were talking about that, and it was
like interesting listening youguys were both reflecting on it
from a perspective of having ina band in the past, when.
Those things, like those toolsweren't accessible to you in the
same way that they are now.

Yeah.

alexi (01:07:28):
but it was interesting 'cause I was like listening to
him talk someone who like hassigned people and like done
production as well, like Icouldn't tell almost if based on
like Chris's take, easier orharder to make it as an
independent artist today.

Hmm.

alexi (01:07:47):
you guys were talking about, like, the example
specifically of like, um, likemailing lists, uh, and having to
like push yourself and how likebefore it was having to make

Yeah.

alexi (01:07:57):
and push yourself out there and go and talk to people.
And then you guys kind of jokedthat now it's just like QR
codes.
and made it sound as though likeit's that much easier, but it's
like, I don't know, I kind ofhad a couple questions.
It was like.
Does that shift, in youropinion, make things feel more
impersonal or, you know, is itjust efficiency to you?

(01:08:20):
And then, kind of that secondthing of like, okay, well
there's more tools and there'smore access, but that also means
more noise.

Yeah.

alexi (01:08:30):
does that mean for new musicians?
Like,

Yeah.

alexi (01:08:32):
break through like you have easier tools to be
successful?
But then because everyone doeslike, what does that mean?
Like how much do you have tobreak through then?

Is it easier or is it harder?
here's the great myth theinternet was this idea and the
promise and the what they wouldsell you right from the
beginning.
And I think what you alsoalluded to was, Chris and I are
in this U unique position wherewe learned how to build an
audience pre-internet.
And in the middle of our careerswas the internet, you know, of,

(01:09:04):
of now we're shifting our workto being online from organically
and in person.
So we've sort of had to learnboth and, and experience both.
So the great myth was, you know,here, come and get online, be a
part of this thing, and now youcan reach everybody, right?

alexi (01:09:22):
Yeah.

so, Spotify will now make my music accessible to
the entire world tomorrow.
It'll make my podcast accessibletomorrow, right.
If I want it to.
and the whole world can listento it.
But the problem is, now you haveaccess to the whole ocean, but
you're.
Just a drop in that ocean.

alexi (01:09:41):
Yeah.

And that's the myth.
And so the bare bones questionof is it easier?
I don't think it's easier.
I think everyone's experiencinghow hard it is because to cut
through, to get attention, to beunique, to make the algorithm
work in your favor.
I mean, right from episode one,talking with Dan about.

(01:10:02):
Content creation and, and sothat work, that work is hard
work and people aren't preparedfor it.

alexi (01:10:09):
Yeah.

And yeah, I guess that's the long-winded answer
but yeah, so it's same butdifferent.
I don't think it's easier.
I, I literally don't think it'seasier.
I think,

alexi (01:10:19):
thinking.
I was thinking about the, theband that you mentioned to him
that I had mentioned in ourconversation about like.
How I had said that it was

Yep.

alexi (01:10:30):
underground, but not well.

Not underground, new, just new.

alexi (01:10:34):
Yeah, new.
And you were like, well theyhave a million streams on a
couple of their songs.
But I also just think that, andlike seeing that multiple times
kind of like proves that pointof like these small new bands
have the tools now to like make.
Singles and put them, or evensmall eps, put them out on
Spotify, put them out on AppleMusic and have an Instagram,

(01:10:57):
even a website.
And then, you know, they get puton like a Spotify made playlist
or they get put on whateverTikTok and it blows up.
And now they have a couple songswith that many streams.
But then you go and look at thebands and they have like maybe a
very small signage or they'renot signed.
They have like.
Couple hundred Instagramfollowers, maybe, like, maybe

(01:11:19):
they hit a thousand and like nofan base.
They're still playing like smallhouse shows.
Like it's just interesting thatit's like they have the tools
then to make the music and toget that crazy million streams.
Um, but like how far does thatreally take you?
It doesn't,

Yeah, well the math on a million streams is
very disappointing, and I don'tknow if non like musician people
have probably heard a bit of it.
Maybe it doesn't sink in enoughto tell them like.
A million streams and you make acouple thousand dollars or
$3,000, like that doesn't carryyou very far in your career.

(01:11:58):
And you're right, there's abunch of these bands that are
kind of like how he describedrunning into the person in some
small club with 50 people

alexi (01:12:06):
Yeah,

England and you go on on their Insta and they've
got like 5,000 or 10,000followers or.
Or something really.
And so you, you wouldn't knowlike the, there's all kinds of
great imbalances now, which iskind of really interesting time
for us to be experiencing inmusic, I think.
Right.
So you don't know anymore.
Like, uh, you know, there'sstories out there about, there

(01:12:30):
was a while when everybody wassigning artists based on their
social media following.
And then you'd go and book themas on a tour, or you'd book them
as an opener on some showsanyhow, and they, they couldn't
draw anybody.
So in the live music promoterindustry, who are some of the
most skeptical, jaded people inthe entire business?

(01:12:50):
Sometimes, it's because theirentire livelihood depends on
draw, on the word draw, and,That's the one area of the
business I've never wanted todo.
'cause you risk your shirt everysingle time as a promoter,
right?
Like you have to literallysurvive off volume.
If I put through 10 shows in amonth and one of'em just is an

(01:13:13):
absolute home run, that onemight have to make up for the
other nine.
Losing money.
So that I break even and can paymy assistant at the end of the
month type thing.
So it's a brutal, but yeah, sotheir whole, their whole world
is draw and that doesn't, thatdoesn't equate across the way it
used to.
In the more organic days, youcould make better assumptions

(01:13:37):
about whether somebody wouldactually draw.
Or not, but, but remember whatChris was saying, the other
strength of the platform, sothis is where it is easier, is
the data.
So he can tell based on otheranalytics of how things are
being streamed or who'slistening or responding to ads
in New Zealand, if they're gonnabe able to sell out a show when

(01:13:57):
they get there

alexi (01:13:58):
Interesting.

with data that we would never have had.
Right.
There was no way to know.

alexi (01:14:03):
It was much

Yeah.

alexi (01:14:04):
gamble.

Yeah, a hundred percent.
But yeah.

alexi (01:14:06):
It's interesting.

So, it is also funny, so thinking this week
about that conversation and, Iwas thinking about Chris this
way because one of my favoriteconversations I ever had with
Chris is we were driving in theinterior of BC back to Kelowna,
and we were going back to theairport.
We had a bit of a drive out inthe, out in the hills and.
Talking about music, of course,and into bands.

(01:14:31):
And so one of my formative erasin indie music that I loved was
the late nineties, the secondhalf of the nineties.
there was this explosion ofindie music and there was a
certain scene And my favoriteband of that entire scene, uh,
was a band called Buffalo Tom.
There's uh, another band calledDinosaur Jr.
That was sort of, um.

(01:14:51):
Popular at the time too.
Anyhow.
But Buffalo Tom was like it forme, and he was the first guy at
who knew their entirediscography other than Uncle
Brian, who, um, introduced me tothem.
so we had a great talk.
Plus we bonded around anotherband called Frightened Rabbit
from the UK it was a greatconversation and I just remember
how like one conversation likethat and somebody that he.

(01:15:15):
Recommends like, oh, if you likethis stuff, you should have this
stuff.
You should listen to thesethings.
And then going back, you know,and he's like, you should listen
to their other album if youhaven't really.
And then, and then you do.
And then it stays with you.
It's with you forever.
And so Friday night, I had allthe guys over for Poker and Pie
that I haven't had over forseven years.

(01:15:36):
And these are guys, right, that.
Have been with me for over 20years, from the late nineties,
and just that they've, they'vestuck with me through things
like from where I met them tothen when I started in the band
and they would come out to allof our shows.
Um.
I mean, one of them was askingabout when was the last time you

(01:15:57):
guys did a reunion?
Like they were asking me that.
And then the other guy was like,I still have my t-shirt.
So, uh, and which is reallycool.
And then they started comingover and doing hockey pools with
me.
And then we started poker andpie nights, and then that fell
off just before the pandemic.
And then the pandemic just madea wash of five years.
anyhow, so they were over.
And the one guy, Was saying tome, we were talking about music

(01:16:19):
a bit and he just mentioned RayLamont, the artist, Ray Lamont.
And I'm like, oh yeah, RayLamont's awesome.
And he's like, yeah, that albumtrouble, my wife and I still
listen to it all the time.
It's one of our favoriterecords.
And I recommended it to him.

alexi (01:16:36):
Aw.

And so when he was coming over, he's like, my
wife's like, which one's Glen?
'cause it's been seven yearssince we had hung out.
And he's like, he's the guythat.
He told me to buy the Ray Lamonttrouble record.
Like that's how he referenced meto his wife, which I thought was
kind of funny, but it's, I thinkit's also really great'cause in
the same way that I wasreflecting on Chris, the power

(01:16:59):
of music recommendations, peoplespeaking that into your life is
pretty

alexi (01:17:04):
It's

significant.
It's a love language.
Well, it's kind of become ourlove language a little bit.
If I.
Gonna sound a little cheesyprobably to everybody, but kind
of the premise of all this too.
I mean, even today, yeah, eventoday at work, someone was
making a joke while I wasteasing somebody else about
their musical preferences andwhy I wouldn't give them the,
the Sonos player.

(01:17:25):
And um, and then they said tosomebody else like, what about
you?
And then I'm like, oh, she'stotally on board with my musical
taste, I think more thananybody.
And then she's like, yeah,probably.
But she goes, my tastes arechanging'cause my kids are
influencing it.
And I was like, me too.
It's totally

alexi (01:17:43):
No, a

too, a little bit.
So

alexi (01:17:45):
I've had a couple of

it's,

alexi (01:17:47):
text,'cause like certain Spotify playlists you can make
private or not.

yep.

alexi (01:17:52):
And like one of my favorite texts I've received in
the last few months was, myfriend texting and was like,
Hey, super random.
A little like awkward.
But I just like had to tell youthat like this playlist you made
has been like on repeat for meand like, I didn't know a single
song on it.
And I'm obsessed with like everysingle one.

(01:18:12):
And I was like, I'm literallygonna cry right now.
Like that is such a hugecompliment.

Yeah, I was gonna say that I can't imagine getting
a more heartwarming if somebodytold me that.

alexi (01:18:23):
And it was like, I didn't even know she followed me on
Spotify.
I would never, like if she waslike, Hey, I need some music,
Rex, that would be one of likemy bottom three of my own that I
probably recommend to her.
And then for her to be like, oh,it like introduced me to a kind
of new

Hmm.

alexi (01:18:40):
of music and

I.

alexi (01:18:41):
it's like.
My go-to.
I was like, oh, I'd rather yousay like, that's like better
than I love you.
Like that is incredible.
Thank you.

Yeah, you're right.
That's pretty great.
I can't imagine anything better,

alexi (01:18:55):
No.

So that's pretty cool.

alexi (01:18:57):
Yeah.
Okay.

Thank you as always.

alexi (01:19:00):
Oh yeah.
I'll see you in the morning.

see you in the morning, bright and early.

alexi (01:19:04):
Okay.
Bye.

Okay.
Love you.

alexi (01:19:06):
Love you.
Bye.

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