ep11 Matthew Willox has a spark

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Matthew Willox is an electronicartist.
He looks punk rock.
He sounds humble, yet earnest.
We both work our day jobstogether.
We both have something to sayabout.
Everything, if you're seriousabout asking.
I had no knowledge of his musiccareer before already asking him
to join me on the podcast.
He is the mad scientist versionof pure artistic passion and

(00:24):
intellect obscured by the shieldof a wild salt and pepper beard.
He is the musical Doc in Back Tothe Future.
We couldn't help but skipthrough.
Classic Future is now digitalheavy film favorites like Tron
and Scott Pilgrim versus theWorld.
The reference we missed thoughwas oddly MacGyver.
MacGyver was a 1985 TV showabout a man who blended,

(00:46):
unconventional problem solvingwith deep scientific handyman
skills to continually escapelife or death situations without
the tools or means usingwhatever meager assets available
and transforming them into theperfect tools for the moment if
the situation called for it.
MacGyver.
Or Matthew Willox could likelyturn a DeLorean into a time

(01:08):
machine or an OG super NESjoystick into a keyboard, let's
just call it a little bitgenius, a little bit, not
knowing any different.
The madness in a mad scientistis the ability to continually
see and hear, and feel thingsthat don't exist yet and bring
them to life By any meansusually, despite the lack of

(01:31):
means.
Matthew Willox is an electronicartist with over 20 releases
under various monikers such asPerpetual Music Machine Spark,
Winnie the Shit WNY, and mostrecently matter warlocks.
I.
His music career includes thebig highs of signing the record
deal, winning a national laptopbattle, and the deeper lows of

(01:52):
losing everything along the way.
His people, possessions andpurpose.
He's a brilliant digitalcreator, effortlessly blending
disciplines in mediums,intellect in kindness, and
continues the dream of makingmusic that will find a place.
My name is Glen Erickson.
This is Almost Famous Enough.

(02:12):
Thank you for spending your timewith us.
This is Matthew Willox.

Glen Erickson (02:31):
I

matthew willox (02:32):
Don't show this again,

Matthew, that you showed up with a, uh, looks like
a classic SM 58

this is an SM 58 and I knew you were gonna say
something about it.

You did Well, I just think it's perfect.
Like, um, there's just somethingso analog about, uh, who you are
in your career and then choosingthe SM 58.
I love it, but

That's, that's

good.

really funny that you mention that.
'cause people are always like,you're the, you're the analog
guy.
And I'm like, no, I'm really,I'm the complete opposite of
that.
Like, I'm this guy, right?
I'm, and to the listeners, I'm,

Yeah.

I'm holding up a piece of electronics.

Yeah.
You're, you're the computer chipguy.
okay.
Well, I mean, that's aninteresting point because like,
there's a version of electronicthat feels now, like we're
talking 2025, right?
That

Yep.

analog.
And I think we just, people mixup the terms.
Is that a fair assessment?
Like they're thinking analog,like the old version of blips
and bleeps the same way, likeanalog being, I'm gonna, you
know, record like live off thefloor into a mic of whatever
comes out of this amp andhowever this amp, you know,
whether it got really hot ordidn't get hot that day is gonna

(03:46):
change the sound.
Like we talk about analog inrecording, but

Yep.

an electronic music guy, so yeah, you're
running things through computerchips and you've, and I want to
talk about this with you, aboutyour fascination simply between
this merger, between, you know,these, these set of devices or
tools that we use in that worldand.
Our own versions of reality orhowever we might wanna call it,

(04:11):
but yeah.
But I think that you started ina time when now people are sort
of calling like the, the analogversion of electronic music.
Is that fair?
Or Tell me if I'm super offbase.

Okay, so way, way back in 1998, I think,
somewhere around there I got anemail from a guy and he's like,
how are you getting yourrecordings?
So crystal clear, like, he'slike, you're recording stuff.
And I'm like, I pull it up intothe mixer and I crank it all the
way up and there's no noise onyour recording.
And so I'm like, oh, well, it'sall completely digitally

(04:47):
rendered.
Like there's no sound, right?

yeah,

it doesn't have to go through the air or through
any electricity.
It just literally gets writtento a cd, like from the memory of
the computer.
And he's like, what?
And I was like, yeah, actually Ihave to add noise to stuff to
make it seem more realistic.
And I kind of think of it aslike on the one extreme with

(05:12):
analog, you have all thisimperfection and, and problems
that you're trying to manage.
Okay?
Like your cat bumping into themicrophone stand, and so you
have chaos and you're trying toreign in all the chaos.
And then in digital, it's likeTron world.
Everything's perfect,everything's on a grid, and
you're actually trying to belike, can we add some chaos to

(05:33):
Tron World to kind of make itmore natural seeming and kind of
like more human?
And I kind of think that that

as old as you and I, Tron was a Disney smash hit
of basically a human livinginside of,

a computer That's right.
Yeah.
A guy gets a, yeah, a guy gets,gets zapped by this gun and he
gets digitized and he finds outthere's like people living
inside the computer.
It sounds really dumb, but it'sreally cool.
and so I, I really, if you look,if you look at anything that I
do like from any kind of artstandpoint, it's like, how do I
get the computer to do noisethat's real?

(06:09):
Like that, that feels like realchaos.
feels like real mountains orfeels like real sand or feels
like a real tone that wouldreally come outta something.
And so there's kind of likelittle tricks that I've learned
along the way to do that sort ofthing.
And I think when people startcoming to me like, you're the
analog guy.
They're just hearing these likethings that figured out make you
think something's analog.

(06:29):
And now I use that.

mm

It's just all tricks.
It's just all rendering tricks.

yeah.
Isn't that sort of a really coolthing about Yeah.
That we are so frequently tryingto.
these elements of reality?
Well, it just, the tension,right?
Like the amount of effort andmoney that has gone into what
your guy emailed you about in2008 of like eternal effort to

(06:56):
have the most perfect, clean,pristine sound, right?
Like sound engineers, soundsnobs.
I remember years ago in Edmontonon hundred 24th Street was a, a,
a place, a store called AudioArc.
It was like one of the, thehighest end

I know it.

snob, the most expensive, uh,

HiFi equipment.
Yeah,

high Fi.
And I used to, uh, my firstdesign job, I used to do the
newsletters and brochures forthat place.
But so this, this eternal likepursuit of this pristine sound.
And yet we've spent maybe notthe same amount of money, but
the same amount of effort groupof people have also spent Trying
to like, it's like when you geta brand new pair of white Adidas

(07:41):
and then you scuff'em on thecurb on the way to school.
'cause you don't possibly wannalook like you're wearing brand
new shoes.
Like they have

kinda,

And, and we do that to our music, right?
Like we're, we're scuffing theshit out of our, out of our
music.
And I'm the same way.
So I absolutely love that andidentify it with, I love the
real textures.
I've, I've been trying to find,a quote that I placed on my
Instagram, a long time ago, andI'm having trouble finding it,
so I apologize if I lookeddistracted.
But I had made this quote,Essentially, I'll paraphrase

(08:10):
what the quote was, whichtalking about the beauty of like
the brokenness part, uh, insound and how, how we end up
trying to like retro or theinclusion and the obsession with
retro.
And I sort of referenced thatwith this of analog.
The, pursuit of that, is reallyour, our desire and our need to

(08:35):
sort of connect to was that deephuman element.
In other words, the, the quotesaid something about, you know,
the, the sound of a voice that'sbreaking it can't contain the
emotion it's trying to get out.
So it cracks, or, or an amp oran amp.
Heating and overheating andbreaking up led to distortion,

(08:56):
which literally became.
You know, a foundation to aguitar sound or tone that for
decades now has been iteratedall over the place and or,

then,

tape.
Or tape his right.
Or

yep.
Yep.

this stuff in recording the tape, his made it
feel, and we use the term warmfor two decades.
I've heard everyone say, I wantit to feel warmer.
And it's what they want is theywant the thing that we used to
think was shit.
And we, and now we want it back.

They're used to it, right?
You're used to this feeling orthis sound and, and doesn't it
kind of feel a little bitdehumanizing when the like
engineer guy comes along and islike, well, that's just this,
you know, transfer curve.
You know?
Right.
And you know, like you havethese conversations.

it for you.

I, well, like, you know, and like, I, I, I
really would never do that tosomebody.
And, and I, I at least try tostay out of like, debates of
analog versus digital.
And the reason why is because,you know, once, like if someone
likes something, like why dothey have to explain it to you?
Right?
Like, well explain to me like,like why you like analog.

(10:09):
And they're like, well, I justlike the sound of it.
You're like, yeah, but it's notperfect.
Right?
And now you're just the guys atthe Hi-Fi store again trying to
upsell you on something

Yeah.

right.
And

in high

right.

the, you're,

Yeah.

in, in high fidelity

Yeah.
Yeah.
And, and you know, like ifsomeone was, like, if someone
came to me and was like,Matthew, like which do you
prefer?
Analog or digital?
Or like, what do you think, youknow, like, I like, okay, I have
to pick, you know, like, like,you know, are we talking like,
like is it like a$200synthesizer?

(10:45):
I can go buy it long andMcQuaid, or is it like a yamas
80 sitting in like a museumsomewhere?
Okay.
Like,

absolutely.
Okay, perfect.
So I, this is exactly what Iknew would happen with you,
Matthew, because we could justliterally rabbit hole in a
second.
So, quick

Oh yeah.

Matthew Willis, we are coworkers.
This is how I've met you.
You're actually fairly recent tomy life,

Yeah.

the privilege of working together.
When you sent me over someinformation about yourself, you
talked about how somebody at onepoint drew a picture of you
staring off into a distance andyour head was surrounded by
musical notes and the guy didn'teven know that you made music,
which I thought was reallyfitting because I.
Also had this immediate sense ofview, not particularly to music,

(11:32):
but of a creative, and there's,uh, I mean I've been like the
vice chair of the Edmonton ArtsCouncil.
I've been the chair of, uh,Alberta Musics Provincial
Association of, was a year thatI sat on juries and award grant
funding, like all of that stufffor over 650 applicants.

(11:53):
Like I've been so saturated, um,with creative work, but I can
count maybe on one hand,Matthew, the number of times
I've met somebody, and Iimmediately knew is who I would
define as a creative, you're oneof these guys.
So I knew it.
Um, it, it's just you have thataura and if somebody visualized

(12:14):
it as musical notes around a guystaring off in the distance,
that's pretty cool too.
Um, so I.

I have resting space face,

Resting Space.
Space.

yeah,

a good acronym though?
Um, so, um, so I just knew thatI thought, and then we've gotten
into some conversations and Ilove them all and I thought this
would be really great.
So, uh, really quickly, before Iend up in too many rabbit holes,
I want to just paint thebackground.
'cause I also love your storythat you provided for me and I

(12:46):
looked into, and I love thisbecause I didn't know your story
and the truth of it, Matthew, islike, if we didn't work
together, I wouldn't probablyknow who you are or your body of
work or what this story is.
And maybe that is why it feelsso appealing in line with all
the stories that I hope get toldduring the podcast.
And,

yeah.
Go for it.
Yeah.

the truth is like we can often talk to people who.
Whose stories sound likesomewhere near a top of a
mountain, and yet you've gone upand down a number of times.
And, uh,

the mountain analogy.

it's a

It's exactly what it is.

It's a different side of the story.
And I think it's incredible alsobecause, a person who just walks
through your day with a lot ofoptimism and clearly, and, and a
lot of pieces feels like, so I,I hope to find a little more of
how that came about.
So you're, as you said, you'rean elect.
I know this is like super toplevel.

(13:46):
call you an

Yep.

musician.
Obviously there's a million subgenres, uh, and you've probably
dipped your way through multipleones, uh, in your time.
But you, you started all the wayback in the nineties.
You already sort of referencedthat.
We're we're, I think similarages.
So I very developmental, crucialtime of the nineties.
Uh, it had a definite imprint.

(14:08):
you probably, uh, I'm prettysure, you know, the more of the
people who understand themainstream versions of that
would probably recognize that aguy like Trent Resner, had a

I love Trent Ner.

pretty good influence on who you are and
what you are making.
Uh, as a creative or bands likeSkinny Puppy, uh, are probably a
little more relative to a lot ofpeople than, than the ones that
would

They were Canadian.
Yeah.

there you go.
Canadian.
Um, so, but you've, you'verecorded and released under
several pseudonym.
Um, you listed some for me.
Perpetual Music Machine is whatyou started

Yep.

under.
Uh, you've done a lot over thelongest span of time under the
name Spark.

That's right.

my favorite is Winnie.
Winnie.
The shit

Yes.
Everyone loves Winnie the shit.

Well, yeah, it sounds so good, man.

It's so punky.
It's such a punk name.

and it's so on point.
Um, WNYI don't know if thatstands for something in

It just stands.
It is just, I just see this islike, this is a good, like I was
trying to clean up the name,Winnie the shit into something,
just a little bit into somethingjust a little bit nicer.
Right.
So I'd be like, Winnie.

WNY short for Winnie.

Yeah.
And we liked that at the time,like, you know, like, I don't
like it anymore.
But at the time it worked.

And then the last, uh, the last pseudonym you
use is Matter warlocks, whichyou say is sort of the most
recent iteration.
Yes.

it's brand new.
And I, like, I was like, I wastrying to come up with something
that connected to my name, likeas a person,

Mm-hmm.

And I did.
I like, you know, it's like,it's kind of like a cliche,
actually, it's kind of a clichewhen you, you, you sort of hit a
certain age in electronic musicand you're like, that's it.
I'm like, no more names orpseudo aliases or hacker
aliases.
I'm just going to use my name.
And I was kind of like, I don'treally want to do that.

But you,

there's nothing wrong with my name.

No, but you

Like, yeah.

to the name.
You weren't like using the wordbunny or something weird in your
name or, yeah.
Yeah.
You weren't,

That's right.

it.
Totally

Yes.
So, you know, and then I justkind of like, it just, you just
want something that you can kindof stick with.
And it's, it's really funny,that the name matter warlocks
kind of just makes me a littleuncomfortable too, you know,
like, like, and it, like, I haveno explanation for it, but every
time I hear it, I'm like, youknow, I like wince a little bit.
Like, and I'm like, Hey, youknow what that is?

(16:41):
That's just me feelingvulnerable.
That's me coming up with an ideaand putting it out in front of
people and them seeing it and mebeing like, like, like the
uncomfortableness you're feelingis that you just really like it.
It's okay.
Just like let it go.
Right.

Yeah.
No, that's great.
So yeah, so there's like thisthing about your story and your
music, which is just so, I don'tknow what the word is, like
riveting to me.
Like, I feel like I wanna tell

It was riveting to me.
Yeah,

Well, I mean, and maybe it's because I didn't know
it before.
I mean, there's obviously thatelement, and I've known you
without knowing this story, andI think it's really cool.
but I've, I've been able toobserve different people's
careers that, as we said, go upand down the mountain But,
anyway, I appreciate the timedoing this.
We'll, like make our way throughthe whole thing.

(17:36):
your fascination primarily, Ithink with the blending between,
you know, the use of electronic,I know you say devices for lack
of a better term, to create art,because for you, as you've self
described, it's not just music,it's music and visual primarily.

(17:56):
it's some way of translating,Things that are.
You know, either happening inreal time in your world and
environment back into themachine and then back out to
some creative expression is, isquite an interesting cycle.
And you know, I, and for somepeople that's all that might be

(18:19):
is just a version of, I like toplay with these things and do
this stuff for you.

Absolutely.

deeper and more philosophical even.
Um, dare I even say, maybespiritual if I'm, if I'm
guessing, uh, that

right on the money.

yeah.
Okay.
That

Yeah.

and that's why you're a lifer in this, um,
which is so great.
So you start

And terrifying all at the same time.

ter well, it is terrifying, right?
Um, so you start doing all ofthis and exploring this.
Right.
From a young age, you have likea family of sort of creative
people around you that are, thatare making things and
expressing.
So it's an easy in right, aneasy entry point you, and you
start making stuff, but you'redrawn to the electronic stuff

(19:06):
right away.
So I'm, I'm,

Which was super controversial in the inside, the
in like, or how, like, you know,I remember

it

in the Willax bubble it was like, you're gonna
make music on a computer.
That's stupid.
You know?
Like, not probably being toohard on myself, but yeah, like,
it, it's like, it know my, myuncles and they, they played a
lot of music.
My brother played the guitar andyou know, we had like a family
that would really share musicand I remember listening to.

(19:38):
I think it was like Shine on YouCrazy Diamond by Pink Floyd.
And you know, I was like, oh, Ilove this like, like analog
synthesizer.
I know who all that stuff isnow, but at the time I was like,
what is that?
And you know, they're all like,I hate this part.
You know,

That's crazy.

just get me to the, just get me to like the
guitars and the singing and the,and the folk music ness of it,
which is all great too.
Um, but yeah, they were likereally not, like, not bohemian
against it, like, not like inopposition or anything like
that, but like, why would youwanna make this?
You know, like, why would youput this on a, this is, this is

(20:19):
like, this is like Euro dancerecord, new wave stuff.
What do we want this on our, onour Pink Floyd for kind of
thing.
And,

uh, in

or it's disco maybe.

in 1986, I, in high school, I wrote a paper in
my first computer science class,so I.
wrote it on about midi, aboutthe explosion of MIDI in 1986.

Nice.

um, and nobody, and I got like, I think a
hundred,'cause my teacher had noidea what any of this stuff was
and couldn't tell how much Iplagiarized from a long McQuaid
magazine.
Um, but, and,

of the most successful technologies ever
developed.
Like MIDI is like one of the,the greatest pieces of
technology ever.

Yeah.
And we had a, a, is it theRoland Juno, um, at

Like a Juno 1 0 6.

to, yeah, I was allowed to sign it out and bring
it home.
And I would just play with the,like those algorithms where you
just like, press a key and thenit would just start going and
you would change all of like theLFO and all of those, you know,
all of those things that were ona dial.
But, um,

Was this the Juno?
Was this, was this the Juno 1 06 that they had at Vic Comp?
Did they have, was it there?
Was it, was that where you.

at Vic Comp, I was in Saskatchewan, so this was

oh yeah.
Okay.

of in the late eighties in Saskatchewan.
Electronic music things wereterribly earthy then.
But So you're, you're in afamily of guitar and folk guys
who,

So yeah, you don't, you don't really notice
it, but you're.
That's right.
Yeah.
And you totally notice it, butyou're just around music and
you, you, you're trying to getaccess to the things that you
want to do, and, but you're akid, you know what I mean?
Like, it's like you, you know,to your parents, like you
wanting a Corg M1 so that youcan go and make, you know, push

(22:11):
it by salt and pepper isbasically the same thing as you
wanting a Super Nintendo, right?
So you're like, mom, mom,

Yeah.

get me one of these things.
And they're, you know, like,

Yeah.

you don't, you don't know that a Corg M1 is
like$2,000 and a Super Nintendois like 300 and the Super
Nintendo is already expensive,right?
So like, there's no way you'regetting this, but you think
maybe you got a shot if you, ifyou like, you know, put on your
like, biggest puppy dog.
I can go.
Please.
Come on.
Right?
Not happening.

Yeah.

But what we did get was a computer and, um, very
shortly afterwards, internetaccess, like very early, uh,
through the library, um, gotonto the internet.
So I had like, it was basicallyon the internet since day one.
It's really kind of funny too,'cause like I will see sort of

(23:02):
different sort of waves in theinternet and I'll be like, oh
yeah, we like, this was likethis time or whatever.

Yep.

It's like really blew my mind when the
internet took off and gotpopular.
I was like, you guys were justpicking on me for being on this
for like the last 10 years, youknow, and now here you all are,

Yeah,

wrestl, right?
And um, like, uh, you're alwayson that computer and I'm like,
well, you know, I'm looking atstuff right?
And so that actually afforded mea lot of opportunity to see a
lot of things that were going onin cutting edge computing at the
time.
So obviously this has a lot todo with like, what I end ended

(23:43):
up going into as a career,because you're around all these
ideas that are basically fromuniversities.
Like the internet in the earlytime was like all universities
connected and all the people whowere on there were like
university students or likepeople in computing.
And so all the things that theywere talking about was like
computer stuff now, you know,I'm like 14 or 15 or whatever

(24:04):
and I'm like, I have no ideawhat they're talking about.
But you go and look at it andyou're like, cool.
Or like, Hey, these guys made agame and it fits into like, you
know, the super tiny file sizeand you go play that and you're
like, wow.
And.
that scene, it's called the demoscene.
If you look it up, it's calledthe demo scene.
That's where my first musicalinstrument, which was this

(24:24):
tracker software came out of,and it's basically video game
music.
You know, like, that's like thebest way to describe it, to
like, you know, you're usingthis like super low level
technology to arrange data,essentially.
Like, I mean, it looks like aspreadsheet.
If I showed it to you, you'd belike, how is this not just
Excel?
You're like, yeah.

(24:48):
You know, uh, it, it is, it kindof is like Excel and so you're
making, and so.

music.
That's like, uh, I've neverheard that term.

Yeah.
And so here you have like afamily of people who are
beautiful.
They play bass guitars, theyplay real guitars, they play
upright bass, they have theflute, and you're like, check it
out the computer.

Bleep,

You know?
And so it's not even like, it'snot even like you were like the
punk, it was more like you werelike this troll under the bridge
who was like, you can make musicwith computers.
Right?
And, yeah, I don't know.
It's, it just, it just didn'tclick.
you know, at first I sort offeel like, I don't think it ever
really ever clicked with my dad.
I feel, I still feel like maybeeven to this day, like, you do

(25:31):
work on the internet?
And I'm like, yeah.
It's like, what even is that,you know?
I'm like, well, you know, whenyou check your email anyways,
like, we could go down thisrabbit hole.
Yeah.

that joke that we, what are we even doing

Yeah.
Right.

but you moved on.
Obviously it's paid off.
Like we can say, we can saythankfully for everybody, it's
paid off like.
and I work together.
We have jobs.
We

yep.

the, the gery paid off.
But so you

Absolutely.

and I, you, you sort of listed like that you put
some things up on mp3.com in 98,

Yep.

at, at that time, that was like, I mean, I don't
know.
I, I always feel like I have toframe this and maybe I don't,
but it feels that's really stillbirth of the internet time.
Like I made my first website in1995 and nobody knew what
websites were.
And mp3.com coming along isbasically the immediate birth of
MP threes.
And, so

Yep.

those who were online, which isn't like
everybody now, right.
So it was still felt like asubset.
They were clamoring to findeverything they could find, And
so that first putting things upthere had, a pretty positive
impact.
For you, is that a kind of akickstart kind of time for you?

It is.
And I had an 80 megabyte harddrive at the time.
And to make an MP three, I had aprogram that was actually just a
piece of research technologyfrom a white paper, from like
some company called Frown Hofferin Germany, that that was the
company that invented MP three.

(27:07):
And so, you know, you would getthis thing and you could take
your sound recording.
That was like eating up aquarter of your hard drive and
like turn it into this littlething, right?
And so mp3.com became kind oflike a second hard drive.
Where I would just make thesong, put it into MP three and
upload it there.

(27:28):
And I was like, oh, now it's onthis thing.
I don't need to have it on mycomputer anymore.
It's like up there and like, youknow, very shortly after
upgraded and got a lot morestuff.
But, um, at that very initialtime, that was kind of what it
was to me.
It was like I could finishsomething and put it up on this
website or, or even before thatwould, would be on BBSs and

(27:49):
stuff like that.
Not even as MP threes, but aslike the actual mod files that I
was making in the tracker.
And, you know, just was in thehabit of just like making
something and being like, doneup on that thing.
'cause it just couldn't sitaround.
It just didn't have the space.
It didn't have like a, you know,three terabyte hard drive on my
computer that just load up withlike, you know, infinity.

Yeah.

So Only sort of like very, like very shortly
after that started to think oflike, you know,'cause it's, you
know, the website's asking you,like, put a bio picture here,
like, what's your title imagelook like?
And I start making that stuffjust because it's sort of like,
you know, you, you log into yourlittle MP three.com thing and it
looks empty and you're like,okay, well let's dress it up a

(28:30):
little bit with some stuff.
And that's where kind of likeall, and then I'm like, well I
need like a cool name.
You know, like, like I actuallyfigured that name out in this
room that I'm in right now.
Um, like, yeah, with adictionary.
I had this huge dictionary, itwas like a really old school
dictionary and you know, wasjust like literally reading
every word in the dictionary,going like, what can I do?

(28:53):
And I came across Spark and Iwas like, ah, that's really
cool.
It's short, it's punchy, it'sgot lots of good angles on it,
you know, I can work with that.
and that was it.
Away we go.

Hmm.
I mean, everybody, you know, inthat, embryonic stage of music,
there's a bunch of things thatplay, right?
It's like you're just trying toget better.
You're just trying to get goodenough that people will care
maybe.
And you need that.
You want that validation.
then you're looking so activelyfor all the places you can
actually get it into, the peoplewho feel about music the way you

(29:24):
do, right?
So there's a sense of lookingfor community.
then if any of that happens,you're also starting to feel
like, like what are thepossibilities?
And so, you know, when I lookat, you know, you got to a point
where you said uh, all of asudden it went from just
releasing some of my music orputting it up there to, now I'm
being asked to score.

(29:46):
Projects for students at MIT or,or music on TaeKwonDo CD ROMs
and producing tracks for theoiler scoreboard.
Right.
Or, or these things happening,you know, which is like, you're
out of the bedroom, like you're,that's out of the bedroom shit.
Right.
And that's when, the, to me, thefirst flip to another level, and

(30:06):
then you go from up there togetting to a, a another level of
a place.
Right.
So what, because I'm notfamiliar in electronic music,
I'm wondering in your feeling ofthe trajectory, what were the
things that you were having todiscover, you know, a, to build
the community and thevalidation, but also the
opportunities where the, whatifs started becoming bigger and

(30:27):
more real for you?

Yeah.
And okay, so, you know, I startdoing these projects and, and
like it's.
It's really hard to describethis because my, like, lead up
to actually getting a tool towrite music with was so long.
I had already like reallyeducated myself on what music
was like.
I already had kind of likehabits of criti critical

(30:49):
listening and being like, whatis that chord?
You know what I mean?
And like figuring all thesedifferent things out about music
and identifying sounds andequipment that was being used,
uh, to make music.
Uh, like there's a site calledHyper Reel and on there you
could go and look up a song, youknow, so you could, you could go
and look up Headlight the Holeand be like, what instruments

(31:10):
were used in making this right?

Hmm.

And you know, and then it would have like
samples of them.
So, so you know, if it was likea, you know, like an eliss, you
know, DR 16 or whatever that, Ican't even remember what it's
called.
Like, it's like this like bogstandard drum machine they had
through the eighties andnineties.
You could just be like, oh,that's the instrument that's
doing that.
Here's the samples of it.
If I wanna make drums that soundlike this, just go and grab

(31:33):
this.
So by the time I started makingtracks, they were already pretty
good.
You know, it wasn't like Istarted making music and
everyone around me was like,Ugh.
Right.
It's like there was like a tastelevel there that I already had.
And like, it's kind of funny, I,I kind of think to myself
sometimes, like, you came outfully forged, I'm gonna die
fully forged.
And like, you're just kind ofmade out of metal.

(31:55):
Like, you're never going tochange.
You know, you're never gonna getbetter, you're never gonna get
worse.
It's just, you just are right.
And I don't, I don't think thatthat's actually true.
Like, there's like a plasticityin your brain that kind of makes
it seem that way, but

Hmm.

that's how it helped at the time.
So when I started making thisstuff, uh, you know, for CD ROMs
and I started making stuff forthe oiler scoreboard, this was
like people who were Remy, youknow, friends and family who
heard this stuff and were like.
This guy can actually writemusic.
Like, why don't we just get himto do it?
You know, he's a kid, right?
Just,

Yep,

hey, we need, we need, you know, an hour of
music for this thing.
Can you do that?
And you're like, sure.
Right.
And you just go and do it.
And like, you're in such a habitof just making music and putting
on something and, and releasingit.
And I remember buying my firstlike CD burner and going with my
dad to like CompuServe orwhatever it was, the computer
store that was downtown.

(32:48):
And, and being like, you know,he's like, my son needs a CD
burner, you know, and, you know,he has no idea what I'm doing or
what the hell this thing is,right?
And, and like it hooks up to thecomputer with like the serial
port and have like, you know,like, I'm like, no, I somehow I
know exactly what to do, hookall this stuff up and burn CDs

(33:10):
with it is great.
Play'em in the car.
And, like, it was just verynatural, like very organic.
Like I'm making the thing, I'mmaking the thing.
People start using that thingbasically for what they're
doing.
Right.
So you kind of grow in thedirection of like you are
creating a creative resource, Iguess for other people.
That's a kind of like a, areally like mechanical

(33:31):
reductionist way of looking atit, but like people are like,
Hey, this is great.
I'll use this in my thing.
Thanks kid.

Well, let

You know?

me frame it Matthew against, though the
typical, I'll just frame, is itmaybe Canadian, but maybe North
American music journey, which isyou're, making music or art and
you're trying to force everybodyto come to you though.
Right.
Like the, that typical story isgotta book shows, I gotta try
and get gigs, I gotta havepeople watch me.

(33:59):
I'd have to get them to go tothe record store and buy my
music or download it what you'redescribing as like your music is
going out and becoming a part ofall these things other people
are doing and it's giving you anopportunity to do more.

Yeah.
And you know, I think I alwaysknew what the hell I was doing.
Like I, you know, I, I knew whatI was doing.
Okay.
And I always do, but I don'talways know what it's for.
Do you know what, you know whatI mean?

Hmm.

Like.
I'm like, I'm gonna make thisthing and it needs to be XY
Like, I know exactly what it'slike, the visions in my head, I
see it in there.
But that's pretty much it.
Like once it's made, uh, youknow what the purpose of it is
that's larger than that.
It makes like, I just wouldn't,I wouldn't even occur to me.

(34:48):
Yeah.

never stopped you.
Is that what you're sayingthough?
Like that question has neverstopped you from making it,
right?

People ask me that question, like, I'll make
something, you know, I've evenmade stuff at, at work and
people have been like, well,what's the point of this?
Right?
Like, why have you made this?
And I'm like, I don't know.
Right.
I had the idea, I did it.
like once that thing is there,you know, usually when I, when I
actually, you know, put my mindto it and actually like, you

(35:16):
know, make it, and I'm gonnamake this thing, it's beautiful.
I love it.
It's, and it feels that way fora really long time.
You know, like, uh, like if Imake something a, a piece of
computer art or anything, like,I'll listen to it, like, or, or
look at it like 10 years laterI'll be like, man, you know,
this still hits the way I, theway it did the first time I made

(35:37):
it.
And I think that the largerpurpose of things, to be honest,
and maybe this is kind of a, uh,an interesting way of putting
it, it just never seemed like tome like I had any chance of
going anywhere to do anything.
You know?
And I think a lot of people weretelling me that at the time, you
know, kid, if you don't do goodin algebra, like you're gonna

(35:58):
like end up on the street.
you'll be like, like that guypushing that shopping cart.
And this was like the way peoplewould communicate, like my level
of activities to, of like forschool things to me.
Like I was like, you know, Iwasn't really that great in
school.
I was smart.
I could do well on tests, but Iwas like, you know, I'd get to
school and be like, how soon canI get outta here?

Yeah,

Right.
Um, except in art classes, whichI was great computer class,
which I just like destroyed.
I was like amazing at thatstuff.
And it just, you know, likeobviously was just something
that I had, I had around.
And you know, I think that as Imoved through those different
layers up into like whensomebody, like when, when Mike
Adu, who runs the record label,N five md, that's was my first

(36:40):
release, came to me.
He came to me.
And he said, Hey, I wanna putthis song of yours that you put
up on MP three to com on mylabel.
It's gonna be the first track onthe first thing.
And you know, I've got the, I'veactually got the, the mini disc
right here.
Yeah.
And so it's act, it's actually amini disc.
Right.

that's a

You know, uh, And they're, they're really
cool.
I wish they, I wish, you know,they'd stick around and, I know
that, uh, like the idea of likesending in a press kit, like,
you know, it's really funny.
I do all that stuff now.
Like any musical activity thatyou did as a teenager that you
wanted to get your music known Iam doing now as an adult.
And it's like, you know,'causeyou're like, oh, it'd be really
cool to play this show.

(37:18):
It'd be really cool to play thisfestival.
And, you know, you've got allthis work behind you that you've
done.
But, you know, I I, I feel likefor whatever reason I was, I
was, I.
Uh, and I even feel that way inmy career.
It's like I was just on atrajectory that was being pushed
up by a larger movement, youknow, this sort of like
digitalization of everythingand, that really catapulted me

(37:42):
into places.
Just, just early adopter, justlike going in and grabbing that
first technology.
And I think that, you know, Istill tried to do that like
maybe like four or five yearsago, like with stuff like, you
know, it's embarrassing to evenkind of bring it up, but like,
you know, I try to make likeNFTs and stuff like that, and I
thought, well, this is thelatest technology.

(38:02):
This is the latest thing, andthis is that next bubble.
This is the next kind of likewave to ride essentially.
And I mean, I don't, I don'treally know how I, well, I mean,
I know that I don't like thepeople who run those companies,
so I don't really, you know, Idon't really engage with that.
But, you know, that's the, Thattechnological era might be
coming to an end.

(38:23):
You know, even with stuff likeai, it's like, how can I use AI
to like, you know, promotemusic?
Like what?
I get it to make the music now,like I'm not gonna do that.
and so, yeah.
And so maybe that wave is overand, and the, the, the flip side
that is now all that stuff thatyou learn to do as a teenager
and, and, and work as a band andpromote your music.

(38:45):
I have to learn now from scratchafter already having a career in
music like that.
Just sort of like, like by graceand by effort got given to me
and really, you know, I thinkthe, the tale is, I didn't even
know what the hell to do withit.
It wasn't like, there's likethis really, like a, friend of
mine, Uh, max Uli, he's a dj.

(39:07):
I was playing a show with him,and he comes up to me and he's
like, you know, man, you hadlike, he, you had this town,
this town being Vancouver, andthe palm of your hand, and you
threw it all away.
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
It's like, dude, I can barelymake my rent every month.
It's like, if I had a whole townlike Vancouver in the palm of my
hand, I feel like there would besome sort of message back from

(39:31):
that town that like, we'regonna, you know, this, like,
you're gonna make it.

Yeah.

We've got you.
Right?
And it was like, there wasnothing, it's like every single
thing that I did, I'd alwayshave to like, you know, you, you
have to put the, you do thework, you put the workout, and
you see what comes back and youknow, if nothing comes back, you
don't.
Do anything, right?
Like, like, you know what Imean?
Like, there's that next stepand, and you know, I feel like
if I had had a mentor or a coachor someone who cared, like

(40:00):
anyone who cared enough to kindof talk to me every day and be
like, well, like why don't youtry this?
Why don't you try this?
And that's what my friend JenPearson was kind of like, very
early on in Vancouver, like,Hey, come play this show.
Hey, come do this.
But I was already hitting thebricks before that, like giving
my CDs to nightclubs and belike, Hey, I play this kind of
music, you know, like, would youguys want to have me do a live

(40:21):
set or something like that.
And it was like, you know, guyin the coffee shops like, jerk,
come in next week on Thursday,play your show.
Right?
And you know, like, you know,you're already, you're already,
you know, you're doing that sortof thing and you're on a label.
So that carries with it acertain kind of, uh, you know,
your reputation kind of per

Yeah.

Yeah.
Right.
You, you know, like you're,you're, you're validated
essentially.
you know, but I think.

Matthew, is like this, like even back to the
start of what you were sayinghere,

Yeah.

It made me feel like this age old, uh, debate
about art for art's sake.
but really what you got intodescribing to me is how, you
know, you're being able to lookback right now and say, I was
just riding a wave.

Hmm.

this has

Yep.

a lot over musical history of, who, who was
at the top of that wave, or atleast in that wave, Because when
you talk to the people thatbecame famously, or
significantly attached to thosewaves, they always talk about
all the people didn't get known,That were sort of the foundation

(41:22):
for them.
And I guess when I read aboutyour stuff, and I hear you say
that, I feel like, do you everfeel like you were a part of a
foundation, maybe, that a lot ofother people maybe got a little
more significance or career.
Out of, because the way they didit, maybe like what you're
describing is the other tensionbetween, I was just making the
stuff, I wasn't figuring out allthe other things, like the

(41:45):
business of it.
Like you're having to figure outnow that you know, my
promotional work is like maybemore than 50% of the time it
takes to be able to do anythingwith my music.
And if you weren't doing that atthe time when you were just
creating, and opportunities werecoming to you because you were a
part of a wave, it sounds likeyou're

I think

I missed out on things because that's all it was
for me then.

Yes, absolutely.
And so I think that, you know,when someone says, Hey, you
know, I wanna put your music inthis thing, and you're like,
great, I.
Here you go.
I, I make music.
I'm a resource for this stuff.
Come get it.
Um, when someone's like, Hey, Iwanna put you on my label and I
want it to be this song, Ireally love it.
I'm like, go for it.
Right.
Um, you know, I'm, I, you know,I don't wanna be like, I wasn't

(42:31):
thinking of the business aspectsof it, but like, let's put it
this way, the business aspectsof those, of that music was
like, if I, if you were to like,be like at that time, Hey
Matthew, what do you think youneed to do as a business person
to make this music, you know,more popular?
I think the answer would've justbeen hilariously oversimplified.

(42:52):
And I'm like, well, I need it toget it in front of more people.
Right.
And you're like, okay.
Like, how are you gonna do that?
Right.
And I would've had absolutely noidea what to do.

so common, Matthew.
Like I've

Yeah.

programs now,

Yeah.

that's literally, that's the early answer.
That's always the same thing.
They're like, how do I get thisin front of more people?
And they think that that's thesolution.

But, but here's the thing though.
It's like I had no excuse.
I worked in marketing, I workedat a huge advertising agency, so
I was just, I was just a goddamnkid, you know what I mean?
Like, I had no clue what thehell I was doing.
Right.
And I knew, I knew that if yougot the tool into my hand and
you were like, you know, if yougave me the Samurai sword and
you were like, go cut thatthing, no problem.

(43:35):
Where the Samurai sword camefrom or who the thing I'm
cutting is no clue.
Right?
and you know, uh, guys like, uh,Patrick Didi, he was a DJ in
Vancouver, Jenson, uh, who youknow, was my friend, and they
had a night, or they worked on anight called Void.
And they would bring in bigartists.
Like they would bring in like,uh, like warp records artists,

(43:56):
um, like plaid or square pusher.
You know, these people who in myscene of music were like the,
the big stars.
And you know, they were like.
Hey, you should play at ournight.
You know?
And to me it just was like,yeah, cool.
Let's go have fun.
And like, it's a, it's, I'mgonna go play it at a nightclub
and it, you know, I make thisart and, and

Yeah.

it is seriously, like, was that
innocent?
And I had very little opinionsabout why you should do it.
Or who you should do it for.
Just that like, it was just kindof like, man.
And I think like when I was akid, I was just so lonely and so
lost that I just like got intolike making techno for people on

(44:41):
the internet and I kept doingthat and eventually they were
like, here's a stage.
Right.

Yeah.

And I think that there is, there is a real
beauty to that.
Like I think that, you know,when you think about that and,
and you know, like, uh, I, Ihope some of my friends end up,
end up listening to this andthey, and they hear me talk
about them.
Because I think they did a lotfor me, and I don't think other
than playing those shows everreally had an opportunity to do
anything for them.

(45:08):
And so that kind of creates thisasymmetric relationship where
it's like you, you're, you'retaking right, but you don't know
that that's what you're doing.
You're just sort of like, yeah,we're cool.
We we're the cool people makingstuff, you know?
And like, here's a stage andlike, let's rock and roll.
Right.
And, you know, to have someonesay to you, like, you, you threw
it away is kind of like, I.

(45:31):
What, what did they see?
And I still don't know.
And it's, it's one of thosethings where, You know what I
mean?
And like, I felt all of that atthat time and that was like
really weighing on me at thattime being like, what am I, why?
You know, it's kind of funny tosay, I think there's a part of
me that wished that I was kindof like, have you ever seen
Blade Runner 2049?

Yeah,

seen that movie?
Okay, so, so the, the, the, therobot child who is like in the
bubble making the dreams andeveryone comes to them and like,
Hey, you make the memories, andthey're like completely sealed
off from the world.
I sort of feel like as anartist, I wish I could have just
stayed that and never really,and just people would just come,

(46:13):
they would just come in andknock on the glass and be like,
I need some completely fuckinginsane, like wild rave banger,
you know?
And you'd be like, cool, I'llhave that to you tomorrow.
Come back and get it.
Right.
Right.
And, and, you know, uh, neverreally had to like, deal with

(46:34):
the like

like, uh, genie thing where you would

Yeah.

in and get the, whatever the,

So far.
So far, yeah.

like you wanna be like this magical, like
electronic so far.

Yeah, basically.
And, and you know, you can't be,you know,'cause I feel like at
the end of the day everybodywants to be that.
Everyone wants that.
Everyone wants to be the kind oflike golden boy and like, you
know, his comment that I threwit away was really funny'cause
like the number of tries it tookto get to that show where I was
playing with him was like tworecords worth of work

Yeah.

and, and giving it to them and being like, do
you like this?
Do you like this?
And I remember there was like aburrito shop near my place
called Budgies Burritos.
And I walked in there one dayand they're all in there eating
burritos.
Like, like, you know, um, a, abunch of them and I had just
sent over a thing to them andthey're all like, Matthew, oh
yeah, this thing you sent us,it's fucking great.

(47:30):
Like, let's do it.
And I remember being like, Idon't even need a burrito now.
Like, I just like, I have likereceived this, like, like, you
know what I mean?
Like, like

Yeah.

isn't, this is like, this is like, I have made
something or, or how about this?
I have seen something and beenlike, wow, that's so inspiring.
Made the thing and been like, Iwant to get on that stage.
I.
Given it to them, facedrejection, given it to them,
received, uh, uh, you know, the,the validation from them and

(48:03):
then got on the show.
And, you know, that, that to me,just at that time in my life was
like just a huge victory.
And, you know, the, and, and,you know, and, and, and so, you
know, of course I just pulledthe Brinks truck up and filled
it up with bags of money anddrove home, right?

no.
Well, let me say this, Matthew.
'cause I think that's one of themost relatable things you could
say.
So it doesn't

Yeah.

genre of music we're talking about, right?
You just described thisexperience of

Yeah.

this thing that inspired me

Yep.

and art is art to me.
It doesn't matter what mediumwe're even talking about.
It's

Now,

I have something inside of me and I have to pull
it out and make it like tactileor something.
Do you know what I mean?
That someone

yep.

can see it?
Is it even real?
This is why we joke about whatwe make on the internet.
Is it even real?
It's not real until somebodyelse can experience and see it.
Hopefully the way I was seeingit, and that's art, this
expression, and you're justdescribing this experience of I
saw this thing, it inspired meand I went and I needed to make

(49:14):
it.
And maybe the first iterationsweren't good, but I kept making
it until it was good enough thatthe people who made it and
inspired me saw it and felt thesame way.
It.
That's what we're all, that'swhat we've all been doing.
Like I've worked with, you know,17-year-old country artists who
just want, you know, the, theamount of work they do to just

(49:36):
be able to spin that the sameway as the one who inspired them
to do it.
That's everything.

Yeah.
Um, and I have this reallydistinct memory.
It was like Leida played theirfirst sort of show and they had
like a bunch of artists who wereall playing stuff and there was
an artist, um, Kalka, or Kalka,can't remember exactly how to
pronounce it.
He was playing a show and Iremember the very, the very
beginning.

(50:03):
Of his set was just like cricketsounds and like jungle ambience
and you know, kind of like this,like baseline playing underneath
it.
And like, I just like, I just,you know, like the memory's just
like so vivid of that moment andbeing like, you can, you can,
like, you know, if you were to,if you were to talk to somebody

(50:26):
a week previous and being likesomeone was playing cricket
sounds at their show, youwould've been like, yeah, what?
Do you know what I mean?
Like, why would they do, likewhy would you do that?
That's the stupidest thing I'veever heard.
Right.
And, you know, but then paintedthis, this sort of like,
ambiance and like just built onit and layers and layers and

(50:47):
layers of texture and base ontop of that.
And it just blew my mind, youknow, like I really couldn't
even handle it.
Like, I walked outta there andlike, I swear to God, I didn't
even sleep that night because Iwas just like.
Wow.
Like there's just like, youknow, I'm way off base, like
everything that I'm doing iswrong.
Like, why am I doing it thisway?

(51:08):
Like, you're just in a fuguenow.
Like, you know, your brain'sjust like

Yeah.

And, um, yeah.
Right.
And I real like, you know, it'sreally, I, I really, I really
think that like, as I've grownas an, as an artist and grown,
you know, into an adult wholike, takes more responsibility
for the things that I'm doing, Ireally think that, you know,
when you are creating something,like coming up with a theory

(51:34):
about what it is or how it'smade and producing it is kind of
like, it's, it's like you can, Idon't wanna be like, you can
manufacture inspiration forother people because I think
that that is very tricky andlike, probably just impossible.
Like it's serendipity justdoesn't work that way.
But I.
If you, if you, if you just comeup with the idea and come up

(51:57):
with all the like, little piecesfor it, you kind of end up
making something that will neverfall apart under any
circumstance.
Like, it'll always just sort ofbe rock solid.
And I think that this is one ofthose things where we see modern
art, where someone tapes abanana to the wall and, you
know, we're like, it's art.
And like, I think what actuallydrives people so crazy about
stuff like that is like, youhave nothing to go at it with.

(52:22):
Like, that idea is so pure andso completely done that it's
like you're like, like openingyour mouth to try to criticize
it is like your downfall, right?
Where you're like, well, it'sjust a banana taped to a wall.
And you're like, yeah.
So tell me like why that, whyyou think that that's wrong or
like,

yeah.
The conversation becomes, no,it's not all the other things.

That's right.

a banana and tape and a

That's right.
Yeah.

absence and the choice of, I know, whatever we
could

Yeah,

um,

for sure.
Yeah.
Anyways, you know, you sort ofknow what I'm saying there.
Like, it, it, you're, you're,yeah.
Anyways, it's, uh, yeah,continue.

ask you this, Matthew,'cause

Sure.

like in your timeline, so to speak, uh, for
lack of a better term, but thiseffort of you, of what you're
going through, the iterations,the opportunities, you know, I,
I I, I sort of referenced thelate nineties and even like
getting make electronic tracksfor the Oilers scoreboard,

(53:26):
right?
That'd

Yeah.

some version of a huge win for a kid, young kid in
Edmonton, you know, getting outof their basement with their
music.
And then you, you get to pointswhere, you know, you, you hit
some number of whatever onmp3.com or when you first are,
are putting music out somewhereand then you've, you've been
signed to a label.

(53:48):
So there's that, not just thatvalidation.
Yeah, there's a validation, butthat sort of respectable.
Stance with, with your peersthat you know, no one can take
away from you.
That like the businessrecognized you, you're a part of
the fabric of the wholeindustry.
Now, uh, that's another level.
I mean, as, as crazy as thingslike you said you won an, a

(54:11):
national lap, laptop battlechampionship in Seattle at some
point, like a pretty, like,pretty huge deal at the time.
So you've had these things whichlike the, the label and things
like that, which are very peakmoments.
then you describe like, likemultiple crashes underneath

Yeah,

you sort of referenced already sort of
slightly, you know, you knowwhat really drives things
sometimes is like, I was justfeeling lost or I'm a lonely kid
and you're trying to fill avoid.
And I think

absolutely.

you know, sometimes these stories get told
in music, sometimes they don't.
Just how.
artists have this common threadof, validation and what we're
trying to fill inside ofourselves with.
Like, we're not just trying tomake music that makes people
happy, though we all say that inour pressers.

Yeah.

trying to find some version of happiness, you
know, and you hear the tragic,you, you only hear this talked
about in the tragic stories of,how did success not make Cobain
happy?
How did Michael Hutchins not behappy with all his success in in
success or, but it is just, Ithink it's real at the most base
level.
And describe a couple of burnoutphases.

(55:27):
It feels like all of thesethings in this like mass amount
of just constantly creating andputting things out wasn't
returning enough to fill thatvoid.
Is that an accurate assumption?
I'm wondering if you can justtell me about experience as an
artist.
Not.
Sort of getting what you needback from it to,

Okay,

you solid.
Yeah.

I'll give you the, I'll give you the grownup
Matthew version.
First, and then we'll go backand do the like Kid Matthew
version.
Okay.

Okay.

have a really clear idea what you hope to
achieve before you start doingsomething, which is really funny
that I say that.
'cause just earlier I was like,I don't, usually I make
something, I have no idea why.

Yeah.

Okay.
And the only reason why I saythat is that if you start making
something and it starts doingwell, you are going to have to
take responsibility for whateveris happening to you as a result
of that success or whateverpeople are buying into, right?
So if you're like, I'm gonnamake a sick record that has a
bunch of crazy dury deathmarches on it, and then like,

(56:29):
suddenly that's like used aslike some sort of campaign music
for like, you know, an invasion.
You're gonna have to be like,uh, yeah, sorry, that's not what
I, I was just making somethingcool.
Like, I didn't need it to, youknow, to be done for this.
I don't, I don't want to getpaid for something like this,
right.
You kinda have to take that intoaccount.
Now, I know that today becauseI'm grown up and I've seen, I, I

(56:50):
have allowed myself to, not,wound, you know, irreparably,
but harm people, you know, as aresult of my behavior.
Right.
And, you know, like, you know,nothing, ugly, but you know,
just being a stupid kid, actingimpulsively and being a dumb
ass, right?
And, you know, it really kind ofblows me away how we don't

(57:11):
recognize that like everyone'sgoing to get to a certain level
of maturity in a different way,at a different time.

Yeah.

so anyways, getting on, getting music to the
oiler scoreboard, getting musicon a record label, getting into
this laptop battle championshipstuff, were, were all things
that if you had asked me prior,previously, Hey, let's do this,
I probably would've been like,eh, I don't need, I don't really
wanna go do that.

(57:38):
Right.
But because the opportunity justkind of showed up on your door
and being like, Hey, would youlike some free validation for
everything that you've beenworking on?
You know, even though you haveno clue what you're doing, I'll
just put this record out foryou.
No big deal.
You're like, yeah, let's do it.
Right?
Sure.
And so, you know, the problemwith that is though, is that

(57:59):
when you go and you get theresult back.
You didn't, you didn't try to doanything for it, right?
It's almost kind of like, likesomeone was like, tomorrow
there's gonna be a mysterypresent on your doorstep.
Yes or no?
Do you want a mystery present onyour, on your doorstep and you
open it up and it's like somesort of like weird candle that

(58:21):
smells like O Henry orsomething, and you're like,
great, okay, cool.
Throw that on the shelf.
Right?
And it's not, it's not likeyou're getting this thing back
that is fulfilling to you in anyway.
It's just happening to you,right?
And you're sort of getting,you're getting, and so you can
look back and it, you're like,this is an accomplishment.

(58:43):
We did this and I did the workto make it happen.
Like I, You know, paid a lawyerto do a record contract.
I recorded the album, I producedall the art for it.
I, you know, you know what Imean?
I talked to the record about it,put this thing together, and
then it goes out there and yousee the reaction of the people
who are, you know, what they'resaying about it or how it makes

(59:03):
them feel.
And you're like, Hmm, I don'tlike

yeah.

you don't get it.
Right.
And, and

The thing,

a,

thing that's coming back, you're saying

yeah,

isn't necessarily what you needed.
I.

that's right.
Yeah,

and maybe the real friction is that you have
some sense of guilt over that orconfusion because you

definitely.

something else.
And

Absolutely.

also, if you express that, thinks you're
being ungrateful maybe.

So, yeah, so I, so, you know, I think if you
went in, if you, if you went andtalked to Micah do, and you said
to him like, what was Matthewlike when you were working on
this stuff with him?
He'd probably be like, like kindof disaffected, you know, or
like, maybe overly challengingbecause like, you know, I was
like, well, like, what are wegonna, like who, like, who, who
are we playing shows with?
Like, if I'm gonna put thisalbum out, let's play some

(59:52):
shows, like, let's do somestuff.
And it was sort of like, no, no,no, that's not really what we
got going on here.
Like, oh, whoa, whoa, slow down.
Like, you're thinking like, youknow, you're, you're on this
level, but you're actually onthis level.
And I was like.
I don't care what level it is,let's just do the thing, right.
And'cause I'm like doing thisthing or, or let's say going,
going to California and playinga show with a bunch of people

(01:00:15):
who I'm making music with wouldbe really validating, like 10
times more validating thanputting any kind of record out.
Even if it's like you come backin a negative in the bank
account because you had to go dothat, the fulfillment of that is
more.
Right.
And so, you know, I'm playingshows in Vancouver or I'm going
to, I'm going to a lot of showsand I have a good friend group

(01:00:36):
and this laptop battle stuffcomes up and my friend Jen is
like, Hey, you should do thislaptop battle thing.
And I'm like, really?
she's like, yeah, yeah, yougotta do it.
And, and like all of my friends,all of my friends are like, you
will just annihilate this.
Like, you're just, there's justno contest.
Trust me, you'll get into thisand you'll just blow them away.
And I remember being like, okay,like, sure, let's, let's do it.

(01:00:59):
And uh, like I don't wanna belike, this was a mistake, right?
But, you know, I go and I playthat thing and that is exactly
what happens.
Okay?
And so there's all these peoplewho I know, or who I'm meeting
who now see me as this guy wholike just dismantles people in

(01:01:20):
these battles.
And man, that is not me at all.
I am not that person.
I'm like, you know, I'm the kindof person that's like, oh, you
wanna learn how to makeelectronic music cool?
Come over to like, you know,when do you want to come over?
I'll show you how to doeverything.
It'll take.
48 hours.
You know, I got a bed in thestudio, you can sleep here.
Right?
And, and like, that.
I'm more interested in doingthat.

(01:01:41):
And then so you win that, andthen you meet the people who are
doing the laptop battle stuff,and they're like, you, you know,
like you gotta come to the nextone.
Like, you gotta go, you know,like, we can bring in Seattle,
let's do this kind of thing.
And so you go all right.
Like I got this opportunity.
Here we go.
Like, let's just see where itgoes kind of thing.
Again, this is a theme for me.
It's like I'm not reallythinking about what's gonna

(01:02:02):
happen the next step down theroad, or like what, in that
situation, in that laptop battlesituation, I'm basically walking
into a dragon's den.
But that Dragon's den to me islike sort of like, you know, I.
Look, it's the tunnel of love,right?
It's like, like the, the dragonhas gone and like, you know,

(01:02:24):
painted a tunnel of love, likeover his mouth.
So you just walk in,

Glen Erickson (01:02:29):
Yeah,

matthew willox (01:02:30):
And, and so, right?
And so,

a good picture.

right?

Yeah,

And so you're like, you're like laptop battle,
right?
And so I go and do that andlike, I have this weird memory
of like being at that, at theNational Laptop Battle.
And I thought I lost, like, Ithought the, like I was standing
in the crowd and the guy who Iwas battling against was
playing.
And I was like, no way.
Did anything that I make, matchwhat this guy's doing right now.

(01:02:59):
Like he has, he has in thecourse of this battle, figured
out the game and responded to mehere.
He's like thrown the, he's like,he's, you know, he's been
released.
He's like, the right.
And then, so I'm like, oh, I'velost.
And everyone's like, no, no, no.
You've won.
Like, get up there.
You know, like, do you thinkthat thing,

rap battle in the last mile.

it's like Eminem, it's Oh yeah, it's it,
um, uh, exactly.
It's exactly like that.
And so you're like, okay, cool.
And, and like I have this othermemory of being backstage at, at
the laptop battle and thepromoter of the show has this
like big stack of bills, likejust money from that show.

(01:03:41):
And he's holding it and he islooking at me.
And I remember being like,alright, that's my ticket home.
Like I've spent my last moneyjust to get here and I needed to
win this to be able to like,make it so that I'm not walking
home from Seattle, basically.
But you know, that weekend orlike right after that show, I
went and played this like littlespace right after that show.

(01:04:03):
I went and played on a militarybase and all of these things,
like every single moment of thisthing, my anxiety is like going
up by like a factor of 10because I'm not around my
friends anymore.
I'm around people who I don'tknow.
I'm in situations that are like,like I am helping create an
aggressive environment throughjust the music that I'm making.

(01:04:25):
And no one's getting hurt, butit's very rowdy.
And I'm all alone essentially,and I feel alone.
And so and so each one of thesethings, it's like if you were,
if you were to go and be likethe, I, I went to Seattle and I
played three fucking crazy showsin one weekend, and it just blew
everyone's mind.
Everyone would be like, wow,that's really great.

(01:04:46):
and, and, you know, as anaccomplishment, it was, but as
an experience to me was like

Hmm.

frightening the entire time, like terrifying the
entire time.
And when I finally got on thebus to come home, I was
listening to, a song, uh, it'sby massive attack called Small
Time Shot Away.
And it's just like very low andvery droning.
And I just remember feeling likeI need to do something other
than this.
Like this was a.
Terrible idea for me to do

Yeah.

happy that everything turned out the way
that it did and was exciting andall that kind of stuff.
And like it really kind of gotto this thing where it's like, I
have no idea what I'm doing.
I'm just sort of saying yes tostuff I, and like, like I don't
mean like know what I'm doing,like the tangible sort of
day-to-day operations of likehow to get, you know, X.

The,

That's right.

plan

Why am I here?

Yeah.

Right?

you know, this, that feels like, that feels like
the mainstream version of thatstory.
There's a number of them, butit, I don't

Yeah.

me think of like when Radiohead lands in America
after creep and realizes thatAmerica is lumping them in to be
the next big grunge band

Yeah.

of the song creep.
And they're like, no, this isn'tus at all.
They got it all wrong and, andeverything the business had laid
out for them didn't

Yeah.

And, and, and, you know, and like they had a
pretty visceral reaction, to howthat was all happening.
And also makes me just think ofthe 10 or maybe a hundred x
version of that on people wholand on massive stages, like
Kurt Cobain's story that themisunderstanding of artists, I
think by the public is what youjust described, is.

(01:06:32):
When it's not aligned, successdoesn't matter because what it
does to you is drills giantholes in that misalignment, as
you, as a person.
Right.

Will you, will you have someone?

more.

Like you, like I had someone, like I, I got
this little reputation from thatkind of small laptop battle
group right after this wherethey're like,

Yeah.

spark that guy.
He's just in it for the money.
I.
Like he doesn't care.
And I'm like, that is so nottrue.
And I was like, the money what?
And like, you're like, your sortof mean reaction is like, what
money?
You know?
Like, I got a bus ticket home.
Woo.
Yeah.
Like, just watch it, you know,let's go spend this money in the

(01:07:14):
strip club.

'cause I

Yeah.

the money so I could get a bus ticket home.

Basically, right?
Yeah.
I asked for the winnings thatyou, you were putting here in
front of me so that I could gethome.
Thank you for that.
and so, you know, the, the beingclear about what you're trying
to do and why you wanna do itand what you love about it.
Now, like on that bus ride home,like I was just crying and I
remember getting home and lyingdown and just crying and just

(01:07:39):
being like, that was just awful.
and, and it wasn't like, itwasn't like I got there and
everyone that I met was likesuper inspiring.
And there's people who I met,like, uh, like my friend, uh,
Christine, Kenco, Kenco, inquotes, Evans, Wonderful person.
And every time that I got tohang out with her, she would
just say.
To just like zing off a Buddha,like one liner to me, that has

(01:08:01):
stuck with me to this day.
in all of our friendshipstogether, like all the times we
hung out, there's probably, likewe said, 2000 words to each
other, but some of those words,like, I'm playing a show and
everyone's angry, likeeveryone's angry at the show.
I was playing one time and we,it was called Smile TROs.
So it was really ironic andeveryone's fighting with me and,
and she just, she just comes upto me and she's like, you can't

(01:08:23):
be a rainbow shitting unicornevery day.
And I remember just being like,yeah.
And I say that like, I give thatadvice to other people all the
time.
Like when they're like, youknow, like, I just can't come
into work that,'cause I justcan't do the, the socialization
thing.
And I'm like, Hey man, you can'tbe a rainbow shitting unicorn
every day.
Like, you just, yeah.
And, uh, the other one too, andthis, this one really speaks to

(01:08:44):
me is like, don't confusecommodification with mastery,
which is like, just because youare on a stage, just because
people are cheering you on orbuying your record, doesn't mean
that you don't have more growthin, like, there's more to do.
And it's like, I wish I could goback in time.

Yeah.

And say to and say to someone like Kurt Cobain,
like, put the shotgun down.
Let's make a beat on this drummachine,

Yeah,

we're gonna,

yeah,

you know what I mean?
And we're gonna reinvent you asBeck.
Right.
Like,

yeah.

gonna be like, what?

Yeah, I mean, that's kind of intense, man.
Like, like, I mean, we'vereferenced Kurt a couple times
and I, with no pre-thought, but,and it's very

Well, I'm from the nineties, so Yeah.

it's very true, but I mean, it is just the most
exaggerated story of, I thinkthis thing about an artist who's
just trying to make the thingthey love and experiences
misalignment, and then you throwthat into the soup of whatever
you're coming outta yourchildhood with whatever way
you've learned to cope or deal,right.
With validation or the absenceof it, or, uh, there's all kinds

(01:09:58):
of things in the soup.
So the, you know, it just getspretty intense and I guess it's
just really understood andmisunderstood, I mean, in
artists.
So I think the way you'vearticulated that, it's really
incredible based on yourexperience.
for sake of time,'cause I thinkI could talk to you for like
three hours and not even noticeit here.

No worries.

couple things I wanna ask you about, really
quick, more rapid fire then.
So like, so I love that youreferenced Tron.
Uh, I

Yep.

early exposure into, oh, the person in the is
in the computer and I wasfascinated with computers as a
kid.
So the tron and just the visualsof it were incredible.
The video games were incredible.
I used to go to the arcades inWest Edmonton Mall and play Tron
till I had no money left.

This beautiful.

my,

It's beautiful.

you can sort of do a big jump arc line to

Yeah.

next one that is in my, uh, canon of favorite
movies of all time, which isScott Pilgrim versus the World,
which felt a similar butdifferent, and I wanna

Yep.

it's not electronic, but if you feel like
that, would you see it the sameway or are you super familiar
with the movie Scott Pilgrim?
Versus

I am.
That's like, that's, um,

video game integration

Oh, I have the video game.
Like, so it started off as a, asa manga or a, or I guess just a
regular, it might, it might bein manga format.
Um, and then turned into amovie, and then it's also a
game.
And so, yeah, I mean, you know,the, the whole, the whole like
Ramona flowers, like kind oflike, you know, purple or

(01:11:34):
red-haired video game.

yep,

Girl, right.
That, you know, that, that we'resort of like all in love with,
uh, the cool, the cool girl.
totally, totally get that.
And that's actually kind of likethe most successful album that
ever made was this album calledRobotic Girl Next Door.
And it is like kind of about memeeting my Ramona Flowers, like,
essentially, right.

(01:11:57):
And,

Yeah.

and you know, like, like that sort of romance
is, um, just coded into thatalbum.
Like everything that we are kindof going through.
Like there this song on thatalbum called, uh, we almost
didn't Make It, and I wrote thatsong after we were like eating
it.
Like, um, oh, what's that?

(01:12:19):
What's that?
The, it's like a vegetarian cafeon white, I can't remember what
it's called.

Mosaics, cafe

Ca we're, we're reading at Cafe Mosaics or some
version of Cafe Mosaics, like inwhatever it was, in 2001.
And we start walking home andit, like, we go there and it's
like plus 10, but when we start,when we leave, it's like minus
10.
And so we're walking from WhiteAve across the high level bridge
back to my place on like one13th in Jasper.

(01:12:46):
And we're like freezing.
And we're like both like, we'regonna die.
We're gonna die.
You know?
And we're too young and broke tolike get money for a tax cab.

You

Right.
So

Sarah in this

I'm Michael Sarah in this

episode?
Yeah.

Yeah.
Um, like that song is just thatlike, you know, when you're,
when you're trying to hang on isactually very, static.
Like, you're like, there isn'tlike a lot of movement in a song
like that.
And so I just had this kind oflike one kind of like pulsating
idea and people like ended upreally liking that song.
Like, oh, this is like myfavorite song on the record.

(01:13:20):
It's just, you can really feelthis kind of vibe in there.
And I was like, that is like atrue moment that happened to me.
And I And so, you know, that's,that's like, again, when I have
the vision and I know what I'mdoing and I make the thing, it
always turns out great.
Or like, not always, but like,you know, like, I'll make it
great, you know, whatever I cando that.
The idea is always there and theexecution kind of comes through

(01:13:42):
anyways.
Yeah.
So that's, that's how I feelabout,

that.

yeah, like definitely video games.
Yeah.
Okay.
Continue next one.

keep going off that.
cause there's another thing Iwanted to quickly ask you about
before we wrap

Sure.

think the, one of the most coolest things I saw
from you is the controller of anold SNES thing into basically a
musical instrument and howyou've sort of merged this.
I'm making music outta my videogame old, you know, So can you
just give a quick, like how didthat, like how did that happen
for you?
How did you figure that out?

(01:14:15):
Where was the inspiration?

yeah, so I think at, like, at the, at the
fundamental level, there's verylittle difference between like
a, a MIDI keyboard that youwould plug into the computer and
a Nintendo controller, right?
Like you're pushing a buttondown, it's telling a little
controller to generate a signaland sends it to the computer.

(01:14:37):
So, you know, at some pointyou're like.
Hey, uh, I'm gonna go spendwhatever,$500 on a MIDI
controller, or I can try to getmy Super Nintendo controller to
work.
And so there's a lot of thingsthat I, and like I, I used to
have a.
Uh, a Palm pilot.
You remember Palm Pilot,

Yep,

had converted my palm pilot into a MIDI
sequencer, and so I couldactually, like all my sequences
for a gig were like on the PalmPilot and I could just pull it
up and play it.

That's amazing.

And so, yeah, like, and you know, to, to me is
like, you know, I have the POMpilot.
I can solder and I can kind offigure out like, you know what,
I can get out of this thing.
And there's other people workingon that stuff too, right?
There's a, a, a, a community andecosystem.
I'm not like inventing all thisstuff from scratch.
And so you can take that stuffand use it and then, you know,

(01:15:29):
uh, there's like a, there's agreat video on YouTube where a
guy takes a bicycle and he makesit so that when you turn it one
way or another, it turned theopposite way.
So like, if you turn left, thetire goes right, and if you turn
right, the tire goes left.
Okay.
And so then he tries to ride it.
Okay.
So I sort of think that like,you know, if I pick up a guitar,

(01:15:51):
I can, I can get something niceout of it.
If I pick up a clarinet, I canget something nice out of it.
If I play on the piano, I can, Ican, you know, uh, like I know
the piano the best.
So I, you know, no problemthere.
So if I pick up the SuperNintendo controller, aren't I
just kind of trying to get thatbicycle wheel to turn in the
right direction?
And it's just a matter of kindof like.

Mm,

Get in the brain to figure out the inputs
and outputs and, it's really nomore complicated than that.
And it looks cool, and peopleget all excited about it.
And you're like, this is likewearing a leather set jacket to
the nerds.
You know, like, they're justlike, wow, I can't believe it.
You know?
And you've got it, you know, andyou've, you're

jacket to the Nerd Convention.
Yeah.

And it's like you're on stage and you've got
like a, you've got, you don'tgot a tie on.
You've got like a Super Nintendocontroller that you pull outta
your pocket and you starthitting it.
And people are just like, what?
That's crazy.

what I find fascinating is when you
reference this and how you'veused your brain to figure this
out and almost made that your.
brand almost of, of how youapproach music is goes all the
way back to the start of ourconversation of, you know, we
make stuff digitally and then wego and add all this analog stuff
on top so it feels real orsomething.
Or

Yep.

the brilliance of, you know, distortion is that
it's actually the sound of anamp that can't contain the
sound.
And it's, and there's somethingso human and real about that,
you know,

The.

hitting the limits and, and the same way
that you're sort ofmanipulating.
This is what I'm fascinated.
I wanted you to explain how youdo that, because what's
fascinating to me is I think,and I think I'm pretty smart in
this stuff, and I, I don't getwhere your brain goes, I don't
do the math ahead of time tothink of is just this and I can

(01:17:34):
find the, the sequence thatconnects the two, right, that I
can push music.
a thing that none of us thoughtwas meant for music.
I just think that's reallybrilliant.
Fascinating version ofcreativity.

And, you know, well, thanks for thinking That's
brilliant.
I, you know, I really work hardon music theory.
It's something that I don'tnecessarily try to push on other
people, but I think thatunderstanding music theory is
probably one of the mostimportant things you can do as a
musician so I do a lot ofthinking about the music theory
part of it.
I don't know.
I don't know if, I don't know ifI can know how to answer this

(01:18:09):
question.
My brain just works that way.
Like I look at the numbers, Ilook at the relationships
between notes.
I have had big conversationswith people where, where you're
like, don't worry about scale,don't worry about cords, don't
like, all those things are kindof like, macro structures.
You know, if you look at askyscraper, you're like, it's a
rectangle.

(01:18:29):
You're like, yeah, it's a, itlooks like a rectangle, but it's
made up of all these otherlittle things.
And so music to me, like thefoundation of music, and it's
the thing that I wish in musicschool and in music books, they
would just spend 99.9% of thebook on,'cause it would make
everything else irrelevant isintervals between notes.
All music comes down tointervals, between notes and, If

(01:18:53):
you like, I used to have afriend, he would be like, how do
you make the melodies that youmake?
Like, tell, like, teach me whatyou're doing.
And I'm like, okay, pick sevennotes on the keyboard.
So go from like pick a, pick aroot note and then any seven
notes in between there inbetween those two things.
And he is like, well that'sweird.
Like this sounds weird or thatsounds weird.
I'm like, yeah, but that's ascale.

(01:19:14):
Any seven notes between here andthere is a scale and you can
actually do eight notes.
There's actually composers outthere who are like, no, no, no,
you can make your notes up ofeight scales.
And they actually have a lot ofadvantages in, in doing it that
way.
And I remember showing my dadone day, he's like, oh, show me
how you write a song.
And I literally took thesequencer and I just put a bunch
of random notes in it and I hitplay.

(01:19:34):
And he is like, well, thatsounds terrible.
And I was like, well, let's takea couple notes out.
And so I just plucked a coupleof notes off the, off the grid
and played it again.
And it started to have like alittle groove in it, like, you
know,'cause you're, creatingrests, you're creating blank
spaces.
And he's like, oh, that'ssounding better.
And then I was like, well, thisnote needs to go up and this
note needs to go down.
And then, you know, we just kindof like took that jumble of

(01:19:55):
sticks that I threw in there andkind of mushed them around until
we finally had like a melody anda sequence.
and.
the biggest writer's block Iever had was probably between
2014 and, last year or the yearbefore to 2022.
And I just wasn't writing anymusic.
And it was because I was tryingto like, be like, well, no,
like, what is the real way towrite music?

(01:20:16):
You know?
And you're just like, don'tworry about it.
It's like, who cares if you likeit?
It's good.
You like it, it's good.
That's it.
You don't need to be like, yeah,but is someone else gonna really
like, see that I've been reallyoriginal here.
Like, that when once that getsinto my head, I'm dead.
Like I will just cease to exist.

I mean, follow your heart between the intervals
sounds like a pretty good themeto this entire arc of your
story, tell you the

Yeah.

Um,

so, it's so funny that you say that now
because like my whole approach,which is like, I don't know what
the next step is.
And so I'm also saying my roottheory is like, just use
intervals.
Just just worry about the nextstep between the note.

This has been a, this has been a total blast.
I love talking to you about allthis kind of stuff and I know I
could talk to you a whole bunchmore and I'm sure we will.
But,

Yeah.

uh, I'm gonna go back and listen and try to pull
a couple of those quotes fromyour friend out from Sure.
But now I'm going to

Okay.

thinking about this whole idea of following
your heart between theintervals.
So thanks for all of

Absolutely.

me today and for taking the time.
really

For sure.
Well, you know, I'm a huge fanof what you've done so far.
Like I just, I love listening tothis show, so to when you're
like, you can be on my show, andI'd only like really listened to
one episode.
At that point I was like, yeah,

Well,

me do it.

kind of you.
Uh,

Yeah.

appreciate it.
I, I didn't want it to feel likea backhanded compliment to say
you didn't have some of famethat maybe my normal audience
would quote unquote know who youwere.
But this is it was so importantto me was'cause I think that
your story is just an every day,every person story.

(01:21:59):
And I love it.
It's fascinating to me and know,I appreciate you just taking the
time to sort of pull the veilback on it for me.

I can I end on one story?
We'll just, we'll just, we'lljust leap out right after this.
I'll tell one story.
So.
So after, after, you know, uh,my music career, sort of as it
was, as we were talking about,had been completely and utterly
destroyed by like, multiplefactors, you know?
And I, I moved back to Edmontonand I'm staying with, a friend
of the robotic girl next door,And, I'm in his like, sort of

(01:22:30):
listing room and, you know, likemy whole world's like gone.
Like I've lost everything, likeliterally everything.
And I look up at his CD show andI see a copy of my album in
there, and I pull it out and Iwas like, you have this.
He's like, that's you, right?

so

It's just,

Yeah.

yeah, right?
And you're like,

Yeah,

yep.
So I feel like, I feel like I'vehad my own j I've had my own
almost famous enough, like I'vebeen almost famous enough.
It's true.

Yeah.
I, yeah, I'm glad you said that.
I appreciate that very much,Matthew.
I wish you obviously all thesuccess in whatever you're
doing, and I hope that, uh, Iget to be inside this circle and
continue to see your creativeefforts, Thank you, man.

No problem.
Bye.

take care, bud.

alexi (01:23:25):
Hey, just wait.
Lemme close my door.

You ready to go?
You wanna chat?
Are we gonna

alexi (01:23:30):
we gonna chat?

Okay, we're gonna chat.
Okay, so episode 11, MatthewWillox okay, maybe it's
completely obvious, right?
Like I came right out of thegates starting a podcast, and of
course I'm just gonna lean on myfriends and people I know.
The people that I know willrespond to emails right away,
tended to be the people who gotin on the guest list right away.

(01:23:52):
Um, that's not totally true, butno, well, no, we work together,
right?
So Matthew and I workedtogether.
Well, here's the veryinteresting thing and and this
is part of what I wrote for theintro to this, so I kind of
dropped this hint in the introto the episode, so it kind of
already happened, but I askedhim to be a guest before I had
even dug into his music career.

alexi (01:24:14):
So you took a

If you can

alexi (01:24:15):
It could have been boring.

I took, I took a real swing off of this, but, but
it's because what I sort ofmentioned at the start of the,
the conversation with Matthew,which was the level to which he
is a creative, is so unmatchedwith most people I met.
And I've, you know, I can alwaystell through all of our
conversations that everything isso informed by a deep, rich

(01:24:41):
experience, and I just knewthat.
I needed, I, and I needed andwanted something different,
right?
I don't want the same version ofa story the music and career and
the way that his, we didn'treally even dip into the way it
overlaps just into his careerand life as an incredible
digital artist and, andprogrammer and coder and all the

(01:25:03):
things that he can do, but theyare blended for him, and it was
incredible.
And then when I dug into hislife.
I couldn't find very much.
I mean, the inside little noteto that is, he's very fun at
work because he's been a greatsupporter too.
So I asked him this very earlyon, and then he started
listening to episodes, and thenI would get Slack messages from

(01:25:24):
Matthew every Thursday when anew episode would come out, and
he would tell me which part ofthe story he's relating to every
time.
So he's.
Yeah.
Sweet is a great word for it.
He's just a sweet guy.

alexi (01:25:35):
I actually take it back.
I don't think he is a gamblebecause if you like previously
knew him pre like podcast talk,listening to him, I feel like he
could be sane, boring.
Like he could have boringcontent, he could be like a,
have a boring story, but the wayhe speaks and the way he engages
in his little chuckle, like hecould, it would be still
interesting and engaging tolisten to.

(01:25:56):
So I mean, if you knew him andheard that already.
It is not really a gamble, like,you know, like for a podcast
where people are just listeningto him talk, it's gonna be
engaging.
just makes it even better.

Yeah, agree.
but I, I told you that I hopedyou would really like his little
chuckle, so I'm glad that

alexi (01:26:14):
it was so

yeah.

alexi (01:26:16):
I feel the same whenever I'm talking to people.
If I ever say anything and I'meither like really comfortable
and like finding myself funny oropposite end, and I'm like quite
uncomfortable, I feel like Ioften the same thing.
So that was very relatable.

Yeah.
And, and the other sweet thingabout him is that he can talk
with great earn earnestness andintensity, yet it doesn't matter
what.
The subject matter is he, he canroll it off in that
self-deprecating, don't takehimself too seriously.
Ever little chuckle, uh, atwhatever part of the story.
So, yeah, I really loved thatabout him and I'm so happy to be

(01:26:52):
able to share that witheverybody else.
so it was a different kind ofstory, but I loved that had this
version and it, and it's, sorry,I should say, and it's a story
that, like I said, isn't.
The path that a lot of my peersor that I was involved in.
So it's great.
And yet there's like all kindsof similarities had such, you
know, the aspirations and theopportunity, sort of the endless

(01:27:16):
opportunity in front of him

alexi (01:27:18):
a really podcast.

Yeah.
And then a big crash too in hislife.
but you know, he just said somany on point things, so my
favorite thing at the very end,I'm gonna, I don't know if you
have a favorite part or thingthat was said or any little
segment I'll let you say, but myfavorite was just right at the
end when he was just talkingabout music theory, just
randomly off to the side and hetalked about the, between the

(01:27:43):
intervals.
he really thinks music

alexi (01:27:46):
what I.

'cause scale.
cause scales are scales.
Like they're just, they'rethere.
Right.
Like they don't change, but it'sall the stuff in between.
And the way, it just was such aclear in metaphor for
everything.
He had talked about it in hislife

alexi (01:28:01):
Well, I was gonna say and him pointing that out and then
like you could tell he broughtit up as like a quick side note
to add to his point, and then hekind of fell into rabbit hole,
but like.
of like passion that he broughtand it just like all of a sudden
talking about like intervals andlike the story with his dad and
like his creation process, likejust that quick bit.

(01:28:21):
I was like, if you just tookthat and had someone listen,
like you can tell from that howcreative of a mind he has.
And like right off the bat youhim in the episode as like just
such a creative person and thatdrawing of him looking out into
the distance he was talkingabout with like music notes
around his head.
And I'm like.

It makes sense.

alexi (01:28:39):
that that person did that.
But like, I guess, and I'm like,dude, if I listen segment of him
talking about like that with hisdad and just making like music
that way and like creating thatway, like no crap.
That's what someone sees him as.
Like that's exactly an accurateportrayal.
And I was like,

Yep.
Absolutely.
Okay.
So I, I really hope peoplereally take the time with this
one.
I think when you follow the wayhe weaves and weaves and weaves
around his points with, with thecontext and the story like you
had pointed out, it's likereally sweet stuff in there.
what I wanted to make clear,cause at one point early on, and
I think I told you I might haveeven edited some of it'cause I

(01:29:18):
rambled while he was talkingnear the beginning trying to
find a quote and it's one of my

alexi (01:29:23):
Instagram?

Favorite quotes absolutely ever.
Way back in my Instagram.
and then I finally pulled onepart of it a little bit out near
the end'cause it came backaround a reference.
And I like callbacks a lot.
So, but if it's okay, I thoughtI would just read the whole
quote and then you can just tellme what you

alexi (01:29:40):
gonna ask

Um.

alexi (01:29:42):
you left us all on a

Okay.

alexi (01:29:44):
so.

Okay, just do that.
So it's from a guy named BrianEno.
He's an amazing producer.
Uh, a vast array of credits, butmost people know him because he
was a part of the productionteam that really took, that was
a part of U2 when U2 reallybecame the biggest band in the
world the eighties and thenineties.
So, so Brian Eno has been knownas very revolutionary also in

(01:30:06):
the electronic world, which iswhy I thought it was apropos to
to Matthew.
but that's not even why Ithought of it.
I thought of it because of thequote.
So he says this, whatever younow find weird, uncomfortable,
and nasty about a new medium.
surely become its signature CDdistortion, of digital video,

(01:30:28):
the crap sound of an eight bit.
All of these will be cherishedand emulated as soon as they can
be avoided.
It's the sound of failure, thesound of things going out of
control of a medium, pushing toits limits, and breaking apart
guitar sound.
Is the sound of something tooloud for the medium that's
supposed to carry it?

(01:30:49):
The blue singer with the crackedvoice is the sound of an
emotional cry, too powerful forthe throat that releases it.
which I just find the mostarticulate of putting together
this idea that.
We have this perfectionism ashumans, and I see it especially

(01:31:09):
in like electronic music becausehe was talking about how that
one guy how do you get yoursound so perfectly clear back in
the nineties?
And he's like, because it's alldigital.
Like I don't have to deal withthe natural stuff that's here.
I, it's just digital.
But, and that's where thatconversation started from.

alexi (01:31:28):
like his example of um, like him using digital and
people being so impressed thatit sounds clear, and then him
going.
And adding like background noiseto make it sound real and
authentic.
It's like

yeah.

alexi (01:31:45):
like, what you just said.
It's like he has this amazingquality now, which was new at
the time and it's likeimpressive.
But you know, he still just likewants that authenticness
authentic

Yeah.

alexi (01:32:00):
And I just found that so interesting someone had this
like pure sound and was like,oh, this is great.
This is lovely.
I'm gonna stick to this.
but it's like craving for likeauthenticness.

Yeah.
And I think the other part ofthat that I loved about him and
how he does things and what hisstory is and how it relates to
what I find really, desirableand attractive in the music
world is his, is it, it's thisidea that we tend to thrive when
we have less means, when we havearound us, like we tend to put

(01:32:35):
out better art and work whenwe're in the absence of plenty.
I, I was actually just talkingabout this last week with
somebody about music scenes indifferent cities and I said
there's this really commoncharacteristic, especially here
in Canada of, scenes that havedeveloped in places where think

(01:32:55):
they wouldn't because, All thelocal music venues shut and now
people don't have anywhere in itmaybe to play and they don't
have opportunity or they're veryisolated in a region.
Right.
It's takes like, you have todrive a long way to go play
anywhere but your own town.
So, those limitations create agreater hunger and drive.

(01:33:16):
Yeah.
And so art gets produced and youknow, and then all of a sudden.
see it.
What we were talking about lastweek with someone was, I watched
this thing happen in Vancouver,you know, 15 years ago or so
where a lot of the famous musicvenues shut.
They all became dance bars.
And the first time in a longtime, that's when Vancouver all

(01:33:38):
of a sudden that's what DanMangan came out of the scene.
That flourished out of cameright after that.
Right.
And because art artists will goand find a way.
To make it happen.
And, And Matthew was a greatexample that he, he can make,
you know, if you left him withno musical instruments, he would

(01:33:58):
do like what he did, which istake a Super Nintendo
controller, figure out it'stransmitting, its eight bits.
And turn it into something thatcould create sounds.
yeah, it's, he's the madscientist.
He's the genius wizard, all ofthose things.
So anyhow, that was pretty

alexi (01:34:16):
very.

Okay.
Well, thank you for your timeand I hope that.
Your work goes well tonight.
If you have, I don't know.
You probably don't have workleft to do.
Are you done your work for thenight?
Did I get you at the end of

alexi (01:34:25):
of my night?
Yep, it's eight 30.
It's

Okay.
You're such an old lady.
Okay.
I'm just kidding.
Okay, Thank

alexi (01:34:33):
Excited for next week.

Excited for next week too.

alexi (01:34:36):
Bye.

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