ep12 Robin Cisek isn't playing

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Robin Cisek isn't playing.
In this episode, I make use ofthe phrase double entendre for
maybe the first time in a decadeat least, and I decided I should
mark this location by continuingon the double take kind of
playfulness with words and callthe episode.
Robin Cisek isn't playing.
Why?

(00:21):
Well, because we recordedtogether only a few days after
the release of her single.
Play dirty and it felt moreappropriate than expounding on
the word dirty, right?
All things considered, but alsobecause she literally isn't
playing.
I.
She isn't testing the waters ofa music career or seeing how far

(00:41):
she can take it whilesimultaneously working on her
backup plan, there were airquotes around backup plan.
She ain't messing around whenshe learns how to be her own
agent, her own producer, her ownmanager, her own art director.
Now in the early stages of thispodcast growth, I fully,
completely expect the majorityof my audience to be people

(01:03):
within arms length of thecircles.
I have passed through and I havebeen in, in particular in recent
memory, and this audiencesegment likely shares similar
knowledge and experience ofmusic industry and artists with
me.
So it's safe to say this is anintroduction.
This is someone who has not beenon your radar or sits outside

(01:25):
your Spotify algorithm, and thisis okay.
Actually, it's great.
Robin Cisek is a Metis popartist building a career out of
melodic electoral pop and takingthe reins of her music through
songwriting and production onher first single play dirty from
an upcoming full length albumreleasing late May, 2025.

(01:46):
Robin has garnered attentionnationally via high placements
on CBC's, Searchlightcompetition, multiple charting
singles and increasedperformance credits at festivals
and for successful touring actsin Canada.
My name is Glen Erickson.
This is Almost Famous Enough.
Thanks for spending your timewith us.
This is Robin Cisek.

Glen Erickson (02:21):
perfect.
So, I mean, welcome to thepodcast Robin.
Uh, appreciate you being here.
I know you are probably doing,uh, a fair number of things
right now as you've, juststarted into the cycle, so to
speak, of, new music andanticipating an upcoming
release.
So you just released your newsingle, like last week on like

(02:41):
Friday, I think, called PlayDirty.
So, and that's part ofanticipating an album release.
So how long have you, like, soyou've got a, a PR team, now you
got one of the best PR teams, socongratulations on that.
So

Robin Cisek (02:54):
work with them.

yeah, they're great publicists.
So when, uh, how long have youbeen into the cycle now?
Like, so how long did theystart?
Getting you into doing press anddoing interviews, how long has
that

Yeah.

preceded the single?

um, when I released my last album in 2021, I reached
out to them and their roster wasfull.
So I've been kind of trying toconnect with them for a while
now.
So I've, I'm very privileged toget the opportunity to work with
them, and I'm very excited forwhat they're doing for me, for
my project this time around.
Um, so I've

That's great.

uh, on this album for at least a year and a half
because I'm doing my ownproduction on a lot of it.
Um, so I've been working withthis, uh, production team or
the, uh, publicist rather.
Uh, I've been working with themsince I had, I think my first
couple songs done.
Um, so I feel very lucky workingwith them.

That's great.
okay, so what I want to do is,we, we, I want to talk with you
about.
The new music and sort of whereyou're at right now in your
career and where you feel likeit's heading.
Because I, from everything I cansee and I read, it's clearly a
pretty big transition point foryou, which I think is awesome.
So I love to set the groundwork.
I love to go backwards and so,not like the American Idol, like

(04:03):
pre-story that they always loveto do necessarily, but at least
get a sense of like when, youknow, it became the, the dream,
the not the dream, when thedream sort of became the actual
pursuit and, and stuff likethat.
So, when did you really getstarted at this?
Because I, I mean, I found a9-year-old YouTube video of you

(04:27):
covering Alabama shakes, whichby the way is an incredibly
ambitious song to, to undertake.
And you were only.
18, 19 at that time, probably.
Yeah.
I mean that's terriblyambitious.
So kudos, I'm always extremelyadmirable of, of people who are
ambitious and just go for it.
And

you.

and when and when I saw that, I was like, oh damn,
that's like an ambitious song.
So I had to take that in.
Even ambitious for your band,like to play, that song.
anyhow.
That's fantastic.
So it goes back a long way.
So if you could just paint a bitof the journey for me of when
sort of the interest and theactivities started to turn into
the thing that I think is commonfor most people, which is I'm

(05:08):
gonna actually like show peoplethat I'm interested in doing
this, and then you start gettingvalidation and feedback and that
kind of propels you forward.
So when did that start to happenin your life?

I have a little

I.

an interesting story of how I got into music.
Um, so I was actually an athletefor a long time, so I was a
hockey player,

Hmm.

basketball, kind of anything I could get my hands on
for as far as sports go.
And I was always reallyinterested in visual arts as
well.
Um, when I went into highschool, I was actually diagnosed
with a genetic condition calledthoracic outlet syndrome.
Um, so when I got thatdiagnosis, I was told that I had
to quit a lot of my sportsbecause it was putting my life
at risk.

(05:46):
Um, so if I took a big

Hmm.

it would've been pretty detrimental to my health.
Um, so I ended up getting apretty major life-changing
surgery to correct the geneticcondition, and I still kind of
have like bad days on and offwhere I have a lot of like
muscle imbalances and stuff likethat.
But, um, it kind of

Can I, can I ask you to explain that?
Can I ask you to explain thatcondition a little bit more?
Yeah.

uh, before I was born, I actually have vertebrae
that are extended further thanaverage in my spine.
Um, so when that happens, itfuses onto other bones and can
tangle a lot of

Hmm.

and arteries.
So it caused a lot of migrainesand, um, it, it put my arteries
and my nerves at risk.
So, had I taken a hit in hockey,it would be a pretty bad thing
'cause it could.
Possibly cut off blood flow andcause um, like blood clots and
stuff like that too.
so when I was in high school, Ihad to get that surgery to kind

(06:40):
of correct that.
And then, uh, I had to quit alot of my sports and it ended up
pushing me to take a little morerisks with the option classes
that I was taking.
Um, because the school I wasgoing to deemed me as a little
bit of a risk, so they wouldn'tlet me take like

Hmm.

mechanics, anything that would be super physical.
So I ended up saying, okay, wellI like music and I can sing a
little bit, so maybe I'll takelike the, the music classes that
they're offering.
And

Hmm.

I was going through such a traumatic time just
dealing with my health issuesand this big surgery I had
coming up, I ended up putting alot of my emotions and kind of
dealing with what I was goingthrough by being in music.
Um, so since then and since likeputting my all into music and,
and getting into writing andperforming, I just found that it
was a great outlet for me andit's.

(07:29):
Just history ever since.
And I've just loved to beinvolved in the music industry,
um, both with the business sideand with the performance side.
And, um, songwriting has alwaysbeen a great, a great space for
me to reflect.

Hmm.
I mean, that's reallyinteresting.
So the, the, well, if I have acouple of questions.
So this condition, I'm curiousabout two things.
One, is this like a geneticcondition that can, that those
things can keep happening?
Or was the surgery to sort ofprevent it from being
progressive?
Or did it all happen at once?
Like when you were young andeverything was forming and then

(08:02):
that just leaves you in thecondition you are Or is it an
ongoing thing?

the way that people describe the condition is it
kind of happens like beforeyou're born.
So it's just like a geneticdeformity that, so a lot of my
relatives and stuff actuallyhave extra ribs, um, which is
kind of like the same vein of,of things.
Uh, but when I was really young,I used to have a lot of nerve
pain and constant migraines andlike, almost like seizures sort

(08:27):
of, that were caused by mynerves and my arteries being all
tangled up.
Um, so when I got the surgery,they removed that so.
Not to be too graphic for yourlisteners, but they had to like
cut the bone, reroute a lot ofmy arteries and nerves and stuff
like that.
So

Yeah.

I'm kind of still dealing with like muscle
imbalance and I do have likerough migraine days just because
they had to remove a wholemuscle out of my neck as well to
kind of sort

Wow.

Um, so I do have like rough days that I have
trouble lifting equipment orthat sort of thing.
But again, like my music writingis just my place.
I feel like when I'm having abad day, it's something

Yeah.

look forward to and something to get myself out of
bed when I'm having a rough day.
Just go and like work on somemusic, so.

Well, I mean that, uh, that's maybe plays
into the other half of the thingthat I think of when you're
describing that condition,particularly to the age that you
encounter that.
So you encounter that in highschool.

Yeah,

Where they're forcing you to make those
changes, which is an incrediblyvulnerable time of life to be
in, to have anything that makesyou feel like the other.
Right.
So was that, was that playinginto a little of, you know,
diving into music and having aplace to escape and to outlet
what was going on?

So in preparation for this big surgery, I knew
that I would have to take quitea few weeks out of school.
Um, so I ended up doing summerschool a lot of the time, so I
would take courses ahead of timeso that I would have extra time
when I had to deal with this.
So this condition and thissurgery like rerouted a lot of
my life so well in, during

Hmm.

taking classes and then, well, during the healing
process was missing quite a fewweeks of school as well.
And I remember coming back tothat music program.
Um, everybody had already bandedup, so everybody had found their
people that

Hmm.

with.
but that actually ended up.
Uh, becoming, like growing myinterest in running sound and
also I think led to me taking onproduction on this next project
I'm releasing.
Um, so everybody was alreadypart of a band, but I remember
that there was one guy thatstayed back with me a couple
days.
He was an another student, and,uh, he actually taught me how to

(10:35):
run the soundboard.
So it was like a big step in mycareer and reflecting back on
it, I'm super grateful for thetime that that guy showed for
me.
And he's married with kids now,which is super cool.
But the other day he sent me atext saying, Hey, I just saw how
good you're doing.
Like, congrats.
And it

Hmm.

so much to me and like for the future of my
career.

where did that go outta that point then?
So, I mean, the high school, Imean, even the way you're
describing it, like that's oneversion in life where a lot of
people do discover the talent,but then they're also given some
of, You know, for lack of abetter term, the actual
equipment and the metaphoricalequipment around them to pursue
it, right?
You might have, uh, depending onwhere you're at, certain
availability of instruments orpeople to be creative with,

(11:17):
collaborate, bounce off.
You can have teachers andmentors and then you leave that.
and then what do you do?
You know, do you pursue it onyour own?
Or how does that work?
So where, where did thatprogress out of, out of high
school?

I actually ended up working with a lot of bands out
of high school.
I just felt like when during theprogram, there was a lot of
opportunity to work with otherpeople.
Um, but I feel like myexperience with having to work
solo and even like learning somesound, um, made me confident
enough to pursue a solo careerin music.
Um, so I love, love, loveworking with bands, but there is

(11:50):
kind of a give and take whenyou're working with other
people.
you kind of have to find thetime, you have to find the
commitment level, and you haveto find people that are wanting
to create the same music as you.
And that's something I didn'treally feel like I found.
There's a lot of people that Iwas working with that were older
than me, that were looking tohave kids to get married, all
that stuff.
And I feel like my commitmentlevel was just a little bit.

(12:11):
Greater than theirs was.
Um, so I ended up pursuing justa solo career.
So I do all my own management,all my own songwriting, all that
stuff.
But I think that's been the bestpath for me just because I've
been able to write my own storythrough my music just a little
bit more authentically.
And like when you writeindividually, I feel like your

(12:31):
stories come across a little bitmore, um, a little bit more
real, and you're able to, towrite a little bit more
vulnerably.

that's a really good observation, a good point
that you make about how youconnect with people.
I think like people are alwaysfeeling like, how do I connect
with people?
Or, you know, even the thoughtof like, how do I form a band?
And the idea that very quicklyin the process of.
collaboration or connection orwhatever.
Is this in the music scene atleast?

(12:59):
Um, like how tight am I gonna beable to get with these people?
Like, how much are they gonna beable to give?
I think a lot of people havethat experience of their first,
second, third band, you know,and then the, the people, and
then they, they realize thatthey quickly form around the
same love of a thing, butthere's so much other stuff,
like how committed can otherpeople be?

being a

you were,

is like so crazy because you have to be so
vulnerable to complete strangersa lot of the time.
Like, I'm sharing my life storythrough my music and it's just
such a weird thing.
Um, but yeah, I think writingindividually for me has really
brought me out of my shell alittle bit and sharing a lot of
those things.

So what, what avenues did you go to try to
find, I don't know what the wordis.
Maybe opportunities.
I mean, if you're just outtahigh school the first few years
and you're in your earlytwenties, like where.
You know, where around here wereyou finding opportunities either
to learn, like if you said ifyou wanted to do some of that
stuff on your own, that's apretty steep learning curve.

(14:01):
I'm, I'm curious sort of whatkept you moving along that path.
I,

So I guess I should start with saying I was recently
diagnosed with A DHD, so it doesexplain a lot of

well, me too.

all

about, I'm about eight months into my diagnosis,
so there you go.
Yeah.

like with

Yeah.

like.
We're constantly searching forsomething exciting.
Um, and I think that I foundthat through the music industry
and just getting to explore thiscool thing and perform and
travel and all that kind of

Yeah.

forward to keep digging at this and make this my
career and a reality for me.
So I think when I was pursuingthis career of being a solo
musician, it was a lot ofreaching out to a lot of people.
Just like a lot of cold emails,a lot of like, Hey, gimme a
chance to do this.
Um, or what do you think ofthis?
There's a lot of artists thatI've been personally connected
with that have answered myquestions.

(14:54):
Um, and I've been really luckybecause there's a lot of
gatekeeping in the musicindustry.
So I've

Yeah, absolutely.

because I've been given that, I always try to give
back as well.
So I've been trying to mentorartists or if somebody reaches
out to me, give them some kindof advice.
Um, but yeah, it's a, it's a lotof patience.
I find like there's a lot of nosand a lot of ups and downs, and
you kind of have to keep,positive and looking towards the
future to kind of keep yourselfgoing.

(15:20):
Um, so that has been like, notthe best thing ever, but it, it,
there's, there's the yeses thatkeep you going, I feel like.

Yeah.
And I mean, you know, USdiagnosed a DH ADHD or are
starting to.
Learn how to translate

Mm-hmm.

things into, we operate in a massive dopamine
deficiencies for so long.
And, uh, and the chase, youknow, the busyness of the chase
is essentially what you weredescribing.
There is a thing that sometimeskeeps us up

Yeah.

on that higher level and the nose, or even just
the absence of a response feelslike a massive hit for us and,
uh, and takes us down.
And I think it's funny becausewe often, uh, I've heard the
term from so many people, youknow, this is a soul sucking,
you know, endeavor so oftenbecause you're putting yourself
out there continually with theexpectation of that.

(16:10):
So, I think that term probablygot coined by a whole bunch of a
ADHDers in the, in the musicbusiness though too.
I mean those years for you,that's like kind of, if, if I'm
guessing right, that's kind ofright.
Leading up to like pre pandemicyears maybe, where you're kind
of forming your own identity,

yeah, I

uh, along the way.

I graduated from high school in 2016, so 2021 was
actually when I released my veryfirst album, right in the middle
of everything.

Yeah, that's, uh, that's a tough timing of a
thing, but you would obviouslybe doing work leading up to
that, right?
Like kind of preceding to kindof get to that point.
What did you, what was the goalfor you then?
Right?
Like around then, and I, andwhen I say around then, like I
said, there's always, you know,you release an album and it's
your first album, it could belike two plus years worth of the

(17:00):
work, maybe five years of songsthat you are hanging onto and
developing and.
Uh, I guess when I ask what wereyour goals, it's, it's more
specifically around, I'm veryinterested Robin in, because
you're younger, you're in theearlier part of your career,
like full transparency.
I've had a lot of older peopleon my podcast as guests, like
people that I've known people 20plus years into this, 20 plus

(17:24):
years down the road.
but I'm definitely interested inhearing the side of the story
more currently of what peopleare experiencing and trying to
get established as that part ofthe journey.
And, uh, so I'm curious what, atleast at that point, getting to
that point of making the firstrecord, what was the goal in
your mind?
Was it just to get that thingout?
Was it just, did you feel likeyou knew who you were or you

(17:48):
just needed to make the thingand you were discovering it?
I don't know if, if you canarticulate on that.

sure.
I think that for me, my ultimategoal in music has just been to
make a career out of this.
I would like to be able to paymy bills, I would like to be
able to afford to make moremusic.
So I think that a lot ofmusicians, like that's their
ultimate goal when it comes downto it.
Um, I think with that album, Ireally, so I called it Delicate
Minds'cause I wanted to talkabout a lot of mental health

(18:15):
issues and it was.
Very good for me to put it outduring Covid because there was a
lot of people reflecting onthose issues.

Very true.

it had been years that I'd worked on that and I
was writing it and I actuallysat on it for a whole year
thinking, oh, I'll just releaseit after Covid i's done, after
everything opens up.
And then that didn't happen fora few years.
Um,

Yeah.

up sitting on it for a while.
Um, so for me, there was a lotof planning that went in that,
and probably an extra half ayear to a year extra planning
that I didn't really want to do,wasn't in the original plan.
so I ended up doing a lot ofcool things with that one.
So I ended up doing music videosand entering some film festival
stuff.
Um, but I think like followingmy main goal of being like able

(18:57):
to sustain myself financiallywith, with being a musician.
There's like little goals also,like in amongst that too.
So like I wanted to try to getmy music video and some film
festivals and I wanted to have asong on the radio and, and that
kind of thing.
So like the little goals werekind of, built up to the main
goal of just being able to

Hmm.
So how did you figure thosethings out?
Like, you obviously have donethem, they're sort of listed in,
you know, the things that youwrite about, about yourself, so
how.
You know how at that kind of anage, still in your early
twenties, there's a lot to learnin this

Oh

business.
Like, so what were the ones thatcame easy to you?
What were the ones that were alittle harder to figure out?

I would say for me, like accomplishing these goals,
it's all about network.
Like, it's all about the peopleyou meet, all about the
connections you make

I.

sure that your music supports who you are as a
person.
So I always feel like ifsomebody meets me, I want my
music to reflect who I am whenyou meet me.
So I'm not really the type ofartist to put on a whole persona
and be unapproachable.
I want people to talk to meafter my shows.
I want people to come meet me.
Um, but I feel like that'sworked out for me because, um, a

(20:09):
lot of.
Industry people I meet as wellhave been able to kind of
reflect with the music that I'vewritten and kind of get to know
me personally.
So I've depended on a lot ofpeople in radio in sync.
I've had sync people help mewith just getting contacts.
I've had people from with thatbook festivals and they have
just made a personal connectionwith me and either offered me

(20:31):
some advice or like gave me anopportunity.
And then there's people thatI've just met in, like women's
communities, like I attendedthe, we have an Alberta Women
Entrepreneur Awards ceremonyhere.
I

Mm-hmm.

and meet some people and I got a couple gigs
out of that and made someawesome connections.
Um, so for me it was all about,Hey, I'm, I'm Robin, like I'm a
musician, and I'm looking forthis and just kind of throw it
out there.
And the worst thing you can hearis a no.

well, I mean, that's the thing that keeps most
people from doing it.
So that's, uh, a fantasticoptimism is that, um, I, I guess
I'm curious, Robin, is that,natural for you?
Like that's a certain level ofhustle and optimism, which
sometimes can be attributed tobeing young and not knowing any
better, um, people might say,and sometimes it's attributed to

(21:19):
just natural, this is who I am.
Right.
And, and or sometimes peoplejust have one of those aha
moments where they sort offigure out like what the thing
is and decide, I guess this isthe way I have to do it.
Like, I'm wondering what that isfor you because you're clearly
displaying, uh, a certain levelof.
Both intuition and hustle

Thank

that are pretty important, so,

for me, I have been lucky.
I've always been a people personand I think that's my favorite
part of making music is gettingto see how other people
interpret it or just getting to

Hmm.

with people and share personal stories about
either being in music orenjoying music.
I think it's just being in musicis another avenue for me to get
to talk to people and get toenjoy their stories and share
some of mine.
Um, so I guess that that parthas always come naturally to me.
But of course, like.
Everybody hates rejection.
Um, so that has been a littlebit of a challenge, obviously,

(22:15):
to be like, okay, well the worstthing they can say is no.
And maybe in two years from nowthey'll be like, oh wow, look
how much she's accomplished.
Maybe I missed out on that one.
That's like the, the best thingthat could happen is somebody
goes, okay, well now I wannawork with you.
Like you've proven yourself.

Yeah.

that challenge is also something that keeps me
going.
Like, okay, so I gotta know fromthis festival, okay, well I'm
gonna put out new music and I'mgonna try to make sure that you
hire me for in next couple yearsdown the road.
And I think that those areexciting things for me, just to
do the chase, like you weresaying before.

Is there, like, are you, you're 27 or 28, 27.
Do you, do you feel any,'causeyou've been, knee deep in the
chase here.
Like you said, if you put arecord out in 21 and you were
working on it beforehand, soyou've been knee deep in this
chase for like six, seven yearsof, of looking at what the

(23:09):
inside of the business lookslike, for lack of a better term.
I guess I'm, I'm just alwayscurious, like there's a time
with everybody.
It feels like jadedness.

Mm-hmm.

Like starts to creep in because of, like you
said, all the nos you alreadyidentified.
You've recognized how deep thegatekeepers are in the business.
I'm wondering if you've, like,is that something you've
wrestled with or do you feellike you, your optimism keeps it
at bay, or how, how's thatchallenge been?

I think that there is a balance between putting
yourself out there and alsotrying to protect yourself,
especially as a woman and a solomusician, a

mm-hmm.

travel and represent herself at gigs and
all kinds of stuff.
I say I would, I wrestle a lotwith just sound techs even, and
that's like a, like a verycommon occurrence for me that
people just don't really take meseriously because of how I look.
But I would like to say I knowquite a bit about live sound and
I kind of have to, change how mylive show was Pres presented to

(24:09):
make people take me a littlemore seriously.
So I bring my own table of allmy sound equipment with me, and
I hand the sound guy an XLR andI say, you do the

Yeah.

I do everything else.
Um, so I've definitely kind ofhad to adapt, based on people's
perceptions of me in the musicindustry, which kind of sucks.
I wish people would take meseriously upon arrival.
but yeah, that's definitely achallenge and, and trying to get
people to see the value in theknowledge you have and what you
have to offer as a musician hasalso been challenging too.

(24:39):
Um, also as an

Mm-hmm.

person, like there's a, a lot of stereotypes
around indigenous people,especially in the music
industry.
so it's, it's been a challengeto also break those as well.
And as a white presentingindigenous person too, I believe
that I have a privilege that alot of other indigenous artists
don't have and therefore I am.
am supposed to be the personthat stands up for the other

(25:01):
indigenous artists that havethese stereotypes very visibly
put on them.
so yeah, it's, it, there'sdefinitely a lot of challenges
for me, and I feel like it'sjust taking one thing at a time
and trying to better yourselfand don't give people the
opportunity to doubt yourskills.
So having everything

Yeah.

everything ahead of time, showing up early to gigs,
looking professional every timeI meet someone.
just those little things.
You kind of have to work extrahard to make yourself not
doubted by other people, sortof.

Yeah.
Okay.
I wanna, I wanna make sure I puta pin in.
The things that you were justtalking ab uh, about the, the
factors that being indigenousthat you brought in, bring into
that.
'cause uh, I'm definitelyinterested in hearing your
perspective and experiences.
and I'll bridge to where I wantto quickly chat about saying all
the things you just said.
Make me think of a guest I onlyhad on a few weeks ago, Brandi

(25:56):
Sidoryk of Nice Horse, who wassaying all the same things.
How much extra effort she hasto, or feels obligated to put in
to working because she feelslike, you know, for lack of a
better term, maybe she feelslike she's having to kick the
door every single time and everysingle place she goes into that.
You know, people like me haven'thad to unfortunately.

(26:17):
So, uh, so it's a reallyinteresting parallel.
the part about, about the soundengineers, about the lack of
respect.
Um, really I think is whatyou're alluding to in a lot of
ways.
Um, I mean if people don't know,um, to me like sound engineers
and we're talking really justlike the sound guy at a club or
a bar or a whoever got hired atthe place you're playing.

(26:38):
they so often feel like the itpeople of the computer world,
like these very old school likepurists, like I, you know, they
think that they talk thelanguage of sound and they
don't, uh, they get easilyoffended.
They seem to have sensitivefeelings.
If somebody tells'em what to do,uh, they can often present.
I, I got friends who are inthis, so I hope they're not

(27:00):
offended.
I'm saying this'cause noteverybody's like this, but it's,
if there's a bit of a stereotypeand what goes along, and the
reason I'm framing thisstereotype is because
unfortunately what goes alongwith that stereotype is it's
dudes and dudes a who don't liketo be told what to do and be.
Yeah, we'll immediately assumethat because you are a young

(27:22):
woman, you couldn't possiblytalk the language of sound with
them.
And I'm, and that's, I think,what you're alluding to
experiencing quite frequently.
So despite how much work andeffort you've done to learn your
craft and the language of sound,so that you can, you know,
control the outcomes of your ownlive performances, that's,

(27:42):
that's what you come up against

And

an awful lot.

no means an expert.
I'm learning production.
I'm releasing my first projectwhere I'm doing my own
production.
But I would like the opportunityto prove that I am, I'm with
you.
I would like them to

Yeah.

I know, rather than assuming that I don't.

Yeah.
And I think, and the reason Icall that out, Robin, is'cause
it's 2025.
And I think there's a lot ofpeople who assume that these
things,'cause it gets talkedabout like.
Like all the gender imbalancesand, and inequities and even
race inequities, right?
All these things get talkedabout so much now publicly that
I get a sense sometimes thatpeople publicly think we're

(28:23):
good.
Like, like we're in a betterplace in society, which we are
probably, if we look backhistorically, but still exists.
It's 2025.
You're a young woman, you'reexperiencing all of this and
you're experiencing it becausethe, the plain fact I think is
like when I played in a band andI would go into a new place and
continually, you'd have to meetthe new sound guy.

(28:44):
I would just, I would know whatversion of little jokes I could
run off.
I don't even have to know mysound that well, and I could
just present some version oflike a charming interaction, bro
interaction, and then I couldget over that hump and now we're
on the same team and let's gohave a good show.
And you don't get that privilegestill anywhere you go.

it's interesting, I, I attended a Women in Music
event recently, and I rememberthat somebody had shared, um,
another female musician whoworks with other women in, in
their band.
Um, they had talked to one ofthe booking people and they had
physically said outright, ohyeah, I, I never wanted to hire
an all women band after I hadthis bad

That's Brandy.

women band.
And

Brandy told that story on the podcast.

Okay.
Yeah, and I was like,

Yeah.

is shocking because you'd never hear that about an
all male band.
You would

Well that's the joke we made on the episode is
like, nobody's used that phrase,

no.

funny you're saying this.
Nobody's ever used that phrasean all male band.
Right?
It's just,

Hey, these

it is, it's very true.
But it, uh, it's very true andit's very unfortunate.
And, I think it's just great tokeep talking about those things.
I think I, I don't love that.
I get this feeling sometimesthat people think we're good,
we've figured it out, we haven'tfigured it out.
Like there's a lot of work to bedone in little pockets.
It's not just, it's not justthe, you know, the way the Junos

(30:12):
presents a version of equalityin music.
It's actually the artist likeyou showing up in a new venue in
a new place and having toencounter the same story every
single time.
And how, as a result, probablyhow you have to prepare yourself
for that.
yeah, I guess that's, it's justsuch an easy way to get jaded

Mm-hmm.

in the business and I don't know.
is the community of women eventsthat you've been attending, is
there other ways that you'vebeen either consciously or
unconsciously trying to helpyourself work through it and not
let it creep in?

Yeah, I think.
Uh, like when you say that, whatI think of is I think that
there's a lot of like womensupporting women in this
community, which has been reallygood.
But I also

Hmm.

because women have to put in so much more, uh,
perceived effort than the maybe

Yep.

counterparts, I think that there is kind of this
competition that can buildbetween women in music as well.
Um, so we can kind of, kind ofbe mean to each other and think,
well, I want that spot.
They're not offering as manyspots to women, so I need to
compete with all the

Yeah,

to get that spot.

I,

so it really breeds like this, this weird kind of
nasty competition that I hate.
And I feel like if we were allat the same level where they're
just like, I don't care ifyou're women or men, we're gonna
hire who's the best for the job,but make sure that there's
enough women representation andL-G-B-T-Q representation and
stuff like that.
I think

yeah.

be better for breeding more of a, space of
support in, in amongst allmusicians.

Yeah, that's a really good way to put a robin.
I think that when it, a, as hardas you can try to be women
supporting women or any sort ofversion where there's clearly
still only a certain size of thepie available to you, it
inevitably will breedcompetition for that.
I mean, stories like that in alldifferent industries have been

(32:10):
told, like right from, if youwould watch Mad Men, you know,
to that era of history of womentrying to break into the
advertising marketing world and,uh, was very characterized.
But, but still rings true.
It still happens today.
And yes, if anybody wants todebate it, they, they really
shouldn't.
That women have to put insignificantly more effort, just

(32:33):
in all the different ways, uh,than men are having to do.
And, and I think it shouldn'tjust be.
Women supporting women groups.
We probably need to find a, uh,men in the industry supporting
women, sort of actual efforts,right?
Like, I think there needs to bea, a place where I think the
guys, especially the ones whohave been around a long time or
making distinct efforts to breakdown walls, to, you know, share

(32:57):
and create equity and theopportunities that they're being
given.

Yeah.

Um, so, so let me, let me go back to what I
wanted to put a pin in then.
'cause I was going to ask you,you started talking about, being
indigenous and how that alsoobviously plays in, you know,
to.
is there only a certain size ofthe pie available to people, um,
from indigenous backgrounds tooand a, a long history in this

(33:24):
country, in every sector andindustry of, of not being given
the same privilege or access.
But, uh, you did, you dididentify even, a term that I
haven't heard very often everabout.
I dunno if you used the termwhite presenting, but you can,
you can identify that.
But, I was gonna ask you,because like your pr literally,

(33:45):
it titles you as Metis Pop starand I, it's obviously a
conscious choice to use thatidentification in the same way
that historically I've met anumber of people, um, from
different indigenous backgroundswho have talked about why they
would choose to not do thateven.

Oh

They felt like they needed to hide it and all
the things then they had to dealwith because of that.
so I, I was hoping maybe youcould just

Yeah,

sort of elaborate on that and talk about your
choices and your, and, and youruse of that and even the, the,
the white presenting part, whichis interesting to

there's a lot of indigenous artists that I've met
that kind of, it, it reallyvaries on the individual, like
how they like to identifythemselves.
Um,

mm-hmm.

of indigenous artists that don't put it on
there because they feel likethey are taking advantage of the
opportunities for indigenouspeople.
And as a white presenting inindigenous person, Metis person,
I also feel like I need tosometimes be careful with how
many of those opportunities I'mconsuming because again, small

(34:48):
piece of the pie, I need to makesure that other indigenous
people are getting opportunitiesas well.
But for me, that part of myidentity is extremely important.
So my.
Grandparents and mygreat-grandparents and my other
ancestors before them, they wereactually road allowance people,
um, Metis people that lived inbetween the road and the

(35:10):
property.
Um, so a lot of my ancestors andmy relatives were not able to
say they were indigenous orMetis, as a very white
presenting person.
So my, my ancestors are OrnyIsland, Metis, which is a
Scottish background inindigenous, so it's more rare
than the French side.
Um, but we

Hmm.

hair and blue eyes, so we were passing, so a lot of
my relatives and ancestors justwent with it.
They just said they were whiteto be able to fit in.
And, It, it sucks.
Like we lost a lot of ourheritage.
My

Yeah.

told my grandparents not to say that
they were indigenous.
It was don't tell people, don'ttell people.
So for me, saying that I'mindigenous, I'm Metis, this is
the first thing I'm going to saywhen I present myself as an
artist, is my way to take thatback for my family.
Um, so it's always been a superimportant part of my identity,
whether people like it or not, Iwanna reclaim that and reconnect

(36:06):
with my ancestry.
And it feels good to do thatbecause I feel like it's helped
my mom also reconnect and mygrandparents too.
Um,

Hmm.

definitely been an important part for me.

Yeah.
that's really beautifulactually.
Um, the reclaiming partespecially.
So Metis and I, I just like, Iwanna, I like making these
distinctions'cause I just knowhow many people don't
understand.
So, if, if I just Google it, I'mjust going to, I'm just gonna
see the territories and howthey're broken up.
You know, like you're Metis from11 in Alberta, or you're from

(36:39):
10, or you're from, do you knowwhat I mean?
But that's obviously not how youidentify sort of the land and
the region you came from.
So maybe you could just let

Yeah,

sort of what that actually is for you.

so typically when you're talking about a Metis
person, it is a person ofEuropean and indigenous
ancestry, but it is a personthat is an ancestor of a very
specific area and a veryspecific culture.
So for me, I'm a descendant ofJohn Ton from the Manitoba Red
River settlement.
And on my grandpa's, mother'sside, I also have American

(37:14):
Indian in my ancestry as well.
Um, so when it comes to Metis,I'm, I'm from the Red River
settlement in Manitoba.
So,

Okay.

you determine your Metis heritage, you have to
connect it to an ancestor that'sin one of those communities from
a certain timeframe.

So anybody who's listening who both like, I'm
over 50 and like, I grew up inSaskatchewan, so like there was
a part in our School ofelementary school level, where
you learn local history and youlearn Louis Real's story and you
go to Duck Lake'cause it's likeclose enough and everyone, and
it's like part of like fieldtrip and so you say Red River,

(37:53):
Manitoba, Metis.
I immediately think a big partof Louis real's story, but I
mean that's very.
French Metis and you were makinga distinction about Scottish
Metis.
So is there, is there overlap?
Is there

There

like, I can't help but be curious about that.

So, it's mostly based on the community.
So the community is where wedevelop the Red River carts and
the Metis sashes and all thesepinnacles of Metis culture that
kind of follow us today.

Mm-hmm.

My relatives were originally from Scotland.
They traveled to Orny Island andthey traveled to these Metis
settlements.
Um, so the only difference Iwould say is that we look
different and we didn't speak asmuch French, so, um, we're still
a big part of that community,and we kind of are ingrained in
the, in the Metis culture aswell.
Um, I remember when my mom wasyounger, she always used to

(38:45):
share this story that, um, shealways thought it was normal and
all the other kids used to skinmuskrats when they came home
from school.
But apparently that wasn'tnormal for kids that weren't
Metis and they used to havekitchen parties and all kinds of
stuff.
So, my, my mom was very, veryingrained in Metis culture and I
grew up in the city, but, fornow, like I'm very connected

(39:05):
again to my local Metiscommunity and to my
grandparents.
So it's been, it's been a hugepart of my identity.

Wow.
that's really cool.
Uh, I'm really glad.
Thank you for sharing that and,and, um, helping me understand a
little bit more.
yeah.
So let's jump into kind of morewhere you're at now.
you've got this album coming upin May, June, and you've
released the first single for itAnd you already sort of alluded
right off the start that you'veput so much effort into doing a

(39:33):
lot of this yourself.
So you're, you're going into analbum cycle where you have the
support of, uh, a great PR firm.
And Tiffany, who we talked aboutis, uh, really quickly, is that
sort of the only quote unquotepart of a team?
Like we talk about our teams asartists, right?
And, and, yeah.

I think for me, my team is a little bit.
Unconventional, I would say.
So I love having my hands inabsolutely everything.
I love managing myself and beingthe one to reach out about
festivals and stuff like that.
I like having my say on what I'mputting my name on.
However, Penelope PR is like thebest ever.

(40:14):
Um, and I'm really

Mm-hmm.

work with them.
And I think that because I'm sopicky about who I work with,
that says a lot about howthey've treated me and how
they've helped me with this,this project.
Um, but for me, my team looksmore like I love working with
certain photographers.
I love, working with like.
A certain assistant that I liketo bring around with me.
Um, just that kind of thing.
Just people who can

Yep.

do the jobs that I need to do rather than handing
it off to say, a manager orsomething like that.
I love being in total control ofthings, and

Yeah.

hoping that someday my career grows to the point
where I do need to outsourcethat, um, because I would love
to keep growing and getting moreopportunities.
But at this point that I amright now, I'm having a great
time Being in control and havinga say in my branding and the way
that I create my music, I thinkthat it feels more authentic to
me when I have this much of ahand in things and when it

(41:07):
connects with people and peopleconnect with my music.
I think that that is even moregratifying to know that it's
something that

Yeah.

created.

Yeah.
Well, I think I've always feltfrom the days when I was in a
band, um, my experience led meto believe that sometimes the
publicist should be the firstperson that you ever get.
Like when you're.
Early in a career and startingout, they can create so much
legwork for you.
Because the biggest currencyalmost for you is attention,
right?
How do you just get theattention of new fans and new

(41:38):
audience you're trying to build?
And then industry people whowant to see your fans and your
audience in order to give youattention.
So that's their job, is to dothe work of helping you get
attention.
So I think that's a greatchoice.
Uh, I do also, I think it'sinteresting the way you sort of
described that, you know,you've, you've found a love for
doing it yourself, and youwouldn't Yeah.

(41:59):
And you wouldn't expect you,you're not looking for a
relationship where you just handthat off to somebody else.
And that's literally the reversefrom a lot of people I've known
and, and we talked to in the, inthe industry and artists who
can't wait to get.
To the point where they can handit off.
Right?
It's like, I don't want to doall this stuff.
I just wanna make the music.
And, and now, you know, 20 yearsago there was a different

(42:21):
version of all the things wehated doing Nowadays, it's, you
know, everybody feeling theburden of being a content
creator takes more time than

sometimes

music, right?

dread doing the work.
Sometimes I dread sending allthe emails.
But I do love that it's based onmy personal connections.
Like if I

Yeah.

in radio and I send them an email, they know who I
am.
We can talk about things goingon in our life.
I follow them on social media,and I can see when they're
taking their dog for a walk orwhat's new in their life, and I
really like that, so.

Yeah.
I, I was, because I had readsome of the things, you had
written about your, uh, takingon production in this, and as,
as one part of you taking thesethings on.
But I also, ironically, like,not like, very ironically, like
I just yesterday was reading.
the stuff about you and, and theproduction on this record and

(43:10):
how you had done a lot of workto be able to do it yourself and
have things at home and all thisstuff and that do it yourself,
uh, ethic and part that you'retrying to make part of your own
brand.
But, and then, and then becausethis is the way TikTok likes to
work, feels like they're in yourbrain.
Then when I was scrolling lastnight, very late last night, I
come across this very shortinterview with Chappelle R um,

(43:33):
and I'm paraphrasing a littlebit'cause I didn't catch it all,
but this is what she said and Iwas gonna read it here today.
'cause I thought it felt likesuch a parallel, which is,
perfect for everything you werejust saying, which is, she says
the best piece of advice is youjust have to do it yourself.
You can't just wait for, I needa manager, I need a label.
But you don't, you're gonna haveto be cringey every artist.

(43:57):
For every through all of timehas had to be cringey and
continues to have to be cringey.
But the way you have to do it isyourself at the beginning
because not only do you not havemoney, you're also blindly
trying to figure it out

Oh, yeah.
It's

and it's,

the wall

yeah.

what sticks.
Every time I spent.
Days making a video game to gowith one of my songs.
And I'm pretty sure just the, myfive best friends played it all
the time, and that was it.
And I wanted it to be this hugething and this huge part of my
release, and it just didn'tstick.
And that's okay.
And sometimes you gotta justkeep trying weird things and see
what goes.

(44:33):
Um, there's a lot of artiststhat are making it now and they
just put one TikTok out thatthey didn't think was that
funny, and it ended up makingthem viral.
And that's, that's the thing,it's like when you're a musician
and you have to do it yourself,you just have to have fun with
it.
You just have to be like, whatdo I wanna try next?
What do I wanna learn?
who do I wanna talk to?
Like, find their email and sendthem an email.

(44:54):
And you just kind of have towhat happens.
It's, it's very like jumpinginto a black hole.
Like you have no idea what'sgonna happen.
You just have to hope for thebest.

Yeah, I mean, it's refreshing the way you're
framing it, Robin, because,you're looking at it with a, a,
a joy and an enthusiasm ofowning the thing and
experiencing the thing.
Uh, and a lot of people, youknow, it's literally just about
I can't afford it otherwise, andif I could afford, I would pay
all the people to do all thethings or something like that.

(45:25):
Right.
but the production part I wasgonna ask you about, because you
have expressed sort of a realjoy of learning the production
part, which I'm seeing a lotmore.
So the industry has lackedfemale representation in the
studios, in the productionskills at all the different
levels and roles.
you know, especially sometimesas a producer, but even in the

(45:46):
different versions of engineersand and tech along the way, and
so I think it's interesting.
One is, I read, you mentionedGin Ting, who's from Edmonton,
who was on the very first, whenI first joined Alberta Music's
board back in the 2000 OTTs orwhatever.
She was on the board and I gotto know Gin Ting.

(46:06):
And, uh, I've seen a lot of heractivity recently.
So how has, how has she beenable to influence and shape,
those choices and your abilityto sort of learn and do it
yourself?
And what are the other ways thatsomeone like yourself finds a
way to get skilled up in, indoing that?

Well, you know, did you know she started as like a
pop star?
Like she

Oh, I know.
I'm well aware.
Yeah.

Um, so it's, it's really been inspiring to me to
see that she went from.
of just being like in spotlightto wanting to take control of
her own sound.
Kind of the same as I wanted todo.
Um, so she's been a big inspirinspiration for me and a lot of
other producers who are malehave also been like huge

(46:51):
inspirations for me.
I think that through my journeyof learning production and
working on my own music, I havebeen incredibly lucky to work
with a lot of producers thathave my back.
Like, I feel like I can

Hmm.

out to the majority of the people that I've produced
with and say, Hey, can youlisten to this and tell me if it
needs anything or tell me if I'mon the right path, or, you know
what, can you just give it alisten and see what you think?
Or, Hey, I can't figure out whatthe heck a bus is.
Can you please tell me what thatis?
Um, so just a lot of like.
Asking for

Yeah.

but yeah, they've, they've been huge inspirations
for me and, and me as an artistwho wants to have more control
over my music.
I think production is probablymy biggest cost when coming to
Into Music and other than maybemarketing, but as far as like
creating your music, like that,production cost is substantial.
Um, so being able

Yeah.

a lot of that myself is going to make a huge
impact on my future as an artistand my ability to my ultimate
goal, which is to make this myfull-time career and financially
support me.
Um, so little things that youcan take on and learn like that,
I think make a huge impact.

Yeah.
I mean, that choice is reallyjust a capital cost then, right?
Like you're paying for theequipment you wanna use upfront,
versus paying somebody elseevery single time you need to
record, even if it's just, youknow, doing scratching out or,
or not even final recording.
Every little part would costmoney in that way.
and so you're, you're sort ofmore or less in the umbrella of

(48:25):
the pop.

Mm-hmm.

is where you've been following and you continue
to pursue.
And so it's an interestingchoice to me because pop music
more than the other genres, Ifeel is completely actually
driven by producers and,

Big time.

and they completely shaped the sound.
And I, I found, I heard aninteresting quote unrelated to
this, but I feel is relatedwhere I saw somebody talk about
how the editors right now arereally the people in the
creative world with the power.
So if you think about it, right,either like a director goes and
makes a movie, but who, whoeveris the guy who does the cutting

Yeah.

they choose what scenes get in there.
Like, at some point, somebody,uh,

for sure.

yeah, and they, they drew this all the way back
to like in the 15 hundreds.
Like all these guys wrote thesebooks to the Bible

Mm-hmm.

and then.
A small group of men decidedwhich ones would get in there,
changed.
That changed the whole course ofhistory.
The editors have incrediblepower.
So similarly, the producers andpop like have so much power and
you know, and it can be, it canbe 50 50 sort of how much say
you have in the direction.
And sometimes it's all of them,right?

(49:37):
And when you have money orexperience or influence or you
have a whole team, like peoplesign to labels and then the
labels have the clout to maybepair you up with a producer who
might share your vision for howthings are gonna come out.
But there's countless horrorstories of artists who have made
records that they never wantedto release, but were locked into
it because the label paid thatproducer and that producer took

(50:00):
it another direction.
So did, I guess one of myquestions is, were you, were you
having challenging situations?
In working with other producersand sort of achieving your own
artistic vision, I guess is myfirst question.
Was that part of it?

that I've had.
very good experiences.
Like I've

Hmm

lucky in my artistic journey that most of my
producers have seen and heardme, especially as a woman in the
music industry, again, likesometimes you don't really have
that and you don't really have avoice.
I've been incredibly lucky,

hmm.

think because I've been lucky, I've been able to
learn along the way.
So I've been able to sit rightup next to them while they're
working on stuff and it's kindof developed my interest and it
developed my, um, my ownpersonal artistic, like wants,
out of it.
Uh, so I think that like, I'vejust wanted to pursue this.
I think that it was just thenext step in my musical journey

(50:51):
of taking more and more controland presenting the most
authentic artist that I canforward and the most authentic
music.
So for me it was just achallenge I wanted to take on to
further my career.
I also recognized that as awoman in the music industry, a
lot of women, there's like this.
Fake like age that you need toage out of the music industry.

(51:13):
And it's a terrible thing that'sput on a lot of young women who
are creating music.
And I don't agree with it at allbecause Kylie Minogue is not a
young lady anymore, and she'smaking bangers like crazy.

Yeah.

But there is this like weird understanding that
once you turn 30, like you're,you're done.
Um,

Yeah, there's, there's ageism.

Yeah.

ageism throughout the industry.
Like it's ageism.
It's not sexism,

Yeah.

of all, because I've experienced,

Oh,

even a guy my age, I feel like I have no more
relevance.
Like that's just because that'sthe industry.
But,

that.

but yeah.
But then you move that over tothat there is sexism and they
overlap.
And then you're right.
You have, now you have thatdouble thing that's going on
with how does that particularlyhappen to women?
And again, I keep referencingprevious guests.
I had a friend on Adeline whowhen I met her, was like 30
years old and alreadyexperiencing feeling like her

(52:14):
career was just starting and shehad all these opportunities and
she felt I.
Like she had this narrow littletimeline left to try to, to make
it, to break out.
But she's had a career.
She's had a career like,

best.
Like you have the most knowledgeyou've ever had, how could that
possibly be the end of your

yeah.

But I think for

Yeah.

I

I,

I refuse to be.

hmm.

Like, I, I wanna be 50 and I wanna still be creating
music.
I wanna be in my retirement,creating music just for fun, and
I wanna be taken seriously.
So for me, anything that's anopportunity to learn and create
a new value for myself or createa new position for me to stay in
the music industry is somethingI want to do, um,

Yeah.

wanna be doing this, something that I'm
passionate about for as long asI possibly can.

Yeah.
And I think that's great becauselike you mentioned earlier,
well, just the idea of youwanting to do it yourself, which
a lot of people couldskeptically sit here and go,
well, if you really wanna makeit.
Quote unquote, eventually you'regonna have to like have a big
team and give the power over tosomebody who's a specialist in
all of these areas and parts ofthat are and aren't true.

(53:23):
But, first of all, we have to,and that's what I'm trying to do
with this podcast, dispel theidea of what making it

Mm-hmm.

what a career in music actually is.
And, and therefore owning allthese steps so enthusiastically
like you are, I think, is agreat example and story of what
it can actually look like andwhat the opportunity are.
And what I love about it is likewe get the chance cause you're
still young at it, to watch howthat plays out for you, which is
gonna be great.

(53:49):
I mean, if you look at, we werereferencing pop and you were
talking about the idea of liketaking control back of all of
these areas.
I mean, the biggest examples inthe, on the biggest stage we
have are, uh, artists likeTaylor or Beyonce who had gone
through the typical cycle of.
Having somebody else controltheir career and the choices and

(54:12):
then when they finally got toenough like clout or whatever,
that they were able to take itall back, right?
They don't wanna hand it off tosomeone else.
They do wanna own it.
They're sharing the samesentiment that you are where you
are in your career.
And I think it's important totie those together to say, the
truth is you should be able toown your choices and, and not

(54:33):
give them away.
So, so let's, let's talk aboutplay dirty and where you're at
right now.
So, and let's use your singlecause we don't know what the
whole album is, but my guess isthat it fits in well with what
your whole album and intentionis.
So you are doing the production,like you said, you now get to
own the choices.
What are you trying to make inyour music?

(54:55):
Like, what is the thing whenit's done that you're gonna be
so happy and satisfied with?
What are those choices you'regetting to make?

So I think with my songwriting, it has always been
a challenge for me to becompletely vulnerable when I'm
writing with other people.
And I feel like now that I'vegrown as an artist, I've become
more comfortable with it.
But I still think I am the, thebest writer when I'm on my own.
And I can really think thingsthrough and think about, okay,
when was an experience that mademe feel this way?

(55:24):
So I think with this new albumthat I have coming out, there's
a lot of love songs, a lot ofrevenge songs, and maybe stuff I
wasn't comfortable like lettingpeople into my little world

Mm-hmm.

Um, so play dirty I felt like was a good.
First experience of my newproject coming out just because
I produced the whole thing.
I wrote the whole thing and itwas one of the first songs that
I did produce on this album.
Um, but I also think it had anedginess that was still pretty
vulnerable.
Maybe something I don't usuallyshare in my music was that

(55:55):
little bit of like grit andlittle revenge song that, um, I
haven't shared before.
So

Mm-hmm.

that it is reflective of the growth that
I've had as a musician.

That's pretty great.
like vulnerability is a prettyhuge thing.
what are the areas that you, ifI can ask, it's a vulnerable
question.
Uh, what are the areas that, foryou feel like most vulnerable to
sort of put out there?
Like, for me, I remember goingthrough a, a time of being like,
and maybe this is partiallystereotypes of a man, like.

(56:27):
Mental health things weredifficult to talk about right
for a while, and so I'mwondering what the, what the
vulnerabilities are that arehard for you.

like for me it's relationships.
I feel like I close that partoff of, of myself for my music
career.
So I feel like for me, a lot ofthis album is about
relationships.
So I can tell you a little bitabout the album just'cause I
have

Yeah.
Please do.

Um, the album's gonna be called Tempered.
Um, so I wanted to kind ofcreate a title that talked
about, the way that we talkabout emotions.
so me as a woman, I'm, I reflecton that a lot.
there's kind of this balancebetween, I'm gonna be loud and
angry and.
Tempered having a temper.
But then there's also thisbalance between choosing to be

(57:13):
strong and silent.
Kind of like tempered glasses.
You is fragile, but also strong.
Um, so I wanted to really playwith that contrast.
So there's a lot of songs thatare outwardly angry on my album,
but there's also a lot of songsthat talk about love in a
positive way.
So I wanted to kind of balancethose two experiences that a lot
of people have in being,outwardly emotional or just

(57:36):
being strong and quiet.

well, everyone loves a double entendre, so
that's a great use of temperedas two different things there.
so getting this out right now,what, what is the hope for you?
Like, I'll frame it this way,we've already sort of just
talked about where you've comefrom and where you're getting to
and what you want to accomplishand what you want to do.
And we would all love to makethe big leap and jump like three

(58:00):
rungs up the ladder, but we, butyou're obviously, you've shared
so much realism in what you'veexperienced and understanding
how things really work.
So for you, what do you feellike is the real next rung of
the ladder?
For you?
Is it, is it the live shows orsome opportunities you wanna get
that way?
Is it just strictly fan base andgrowing fan base kind of numbers

(58:23):
and support kinda leading to anext record?
Or is, is there somethingspecific that you feel this
would tell me?
Like, I succeeded, I got, I gotto where I wanted to get.

that's a good question.
I think that there's lots ofgoals that I have that if I had
reached those, I would feel likeit was successful.
One of the things I would reallylike to pursue is trying to get
sync deals.
Like I would love to see howpeople use my art to make their
art say something to people.
I think music

Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.

in movies.
Like I'm sure if you played me ascene from a movie and it was
sad and it didn't have thatbacking sad music, it just
wouldn't feel the same.
Um,

Yeah.

love to see somebody's take with my music
for, for film.
I always am very appreciative ofall the radio hosts and stuff
playing me on radio, so that'salways really cool for me.
And yeah, I think just likegetting my music out there a
little bit more would be, wouldbe nice.
Like getting more streams andthings like that.
And like I, like I said before,I love connecting with people,

(59:21):
so getting to connect with morepeople, um, would be awesome.
but yeah, like lots of, lots ofthings that I'm hoping work out
for me.
But I guess we'll see.

Is there, so the, on this album, you can tell me
if I'm wrong here, I'm makingsome guesses.
It feels like a, a definiteshift.
Like you're trying to make anobvious shift.
even just Googling you, Robin,like you're, you're former
presentation yourself might havebeen brighter colors, right?
I mean, stuff that fits verymuch inside of the kind of pop

(59:51):
music that was happening.
the limited amount of thingsI've seen already around this
release feel a little moredarker, a little more like black
wardrobe wise even, right.
As well as just more contrastin, uh, a lot of the tone, feels
very intentional.
maybe you can just describe howthat sort of reflects not just

(01:00:12):
the record, but maybe whereyou're at right now.

Robin Cisek (01:00:14):
I feel like both of those kind of presentations
reflect who I am as an artistand as a person.
But I think with this album Ireally wanted to keep the
branding consistent and I wantpeople to know what they're
expecting from the music.
I think a lot of my songs are alittle bit edgier.
They're pop music, but they leana little bit alternative, and
I've definitely experimented alot with the sound on this one.

(01:00:37):
So I wanted the images to popand kind of connect with that
exploration and that kind of thenew era of my music that I'm
going through with my own selfproduction.
so it was definitely a consciouschoice to kind of make that
shift and, and create somethingthat was.
Visually connected to the music.
I think that like this darkpersona is more me on stage.

(01:00:59):
Like when I'm performing, Idefinitely dress like this more
than I wear the bright colorsand stuff.
I feel like I am falling into myown space now.
Like I feel more comfortablewith what I'm presenting.
I feel like the colorfulness ofmaybe the last couple releases
were more kind of what wasexpected of pop music.
So I wanna add a little bit ofedge to my vibe now.

Glen Erickson (01:01:22):
Uh, that's awesome.
By the way, anytime I hearanybody feeling that they can
express a level of beingcomfortable in your own skin and
making that a part of the wholepackage and not feel like you
have to, you know, present

Mm-hmm.

in a certain way rather than just the way you
want to present is pretty great.
So, and just the way youdescribed the, the last little
part about the influence on yourmusic, which, what I like about
it is like if I listen to pop,which can be so many different
things, we just use one word,but it still is a genre, kind of
like country.
I feel like I can pick out, youknow, the stuff that's very

(01:01:59):
obvious, like, I can put this inthis box.
And, uh, right off the bat, playdirty.
Did not feel like it fit in abox, which I'm gonna guess after
talking.
Yeah.
Okay, good.
Uh, after talking to you now, I,I could already guess that that
was not gonna be a backhandedcompliment for you at all.

I

Um,

of stuff.

so I'm interested what your influences are.
I like hearing who people arelistening to, even what you were
listening to that got you toplay dirty.
But even then, what you'relistening to now that you're
feeling is gonna shape the nextrecord.
I'm interested what yourinfluences are.

have so many musical influences.
I think I'm a huge fan of StevieNicks, Fleetwood Mac.

Hmm.

this album I was in a huge, uh, there's an artist
called Banks that I'm a huge fanof.

Mm-hmm.

kind of pop alternative, but really of heavy
bass and that sort of thing.
I really enjoy her music.
I have listened to RickSpringfield growing up, um, all
kinds of stuff.
My favorite, favorite band isMother.
Mother and I love Hozier, so I'mall

Mm.

for genres.
I think when I pick music, Ilike to hear.
Things that kind of breakoutside the box.
I like to hear things thataren't common.
And as much as I love SabrinaCarpenter and all these pop
musicians that are coming upwith simple pop, with really
good melodies, I love that stufftoo.
But I am more drawn toalternative things and things

(01:03:23):
that interest me as far as likemelody goes too.
Um, I like to explore and I, Ithink that I've got the
opportunity to do that with thisproject.

so I described that in a little different way,
but the metaphor, like the wayyou were just talking about
Yeah.
I still like Sabrina Carpenterand what.
Everyone is like the very clear,sort of top of the pop right now
stuff.
But I, I like all these otherthings.
It makes me feel like I've hadthis conversation where I'm
like, yeah, you all see meliking stuff that we can all

(01:03:53):
sort of share.
It's like, I like candy.
We all can, like we maybe we alllike similar candies.
I can go to work and we can alllike, everybody wants to enjoy
like a bag of Twizzlers orsomething.
I'm being dumped.
But, but what they don't know islike when I come home, I have a
pantry full of it.
Like that's how much I likecandy.
So the way you were describingthat just made me feel of that

(01:04:14):
enthusiast.
I'm like, you don't get it.
Like I have all of theseinfluences back here.
and I mean everything fromStevie Nick's songwriting, uh,
up to some of the things heshared, like, uh, are fantastic.

os.
I've been searching for theirrecord for so long and I got one
this past summer.
Finally,

Like a vinyl, like you're Oh,

And it was like my find, I was very happy about it,
but huge pop influence there.

Well, I just saw an interesting quote, which was,
they said, uh, Darryl Hall hasnever had a charting hit since
he stopped making music.
Uh, even though everyone saidoats was, you know, the silent
whatever.
It's funny.
But, um, know those are pretty,pretty great influences.
so I, your links get posted withthe show notes and everywhere I

(01:05:02):
put it, I just wanna make sureeverybody knows to go and check
out.
'cause you have a new single

Yeah.

Robin Cizik.
If you're only listening and youjust never bothered to read the
title of the actual podcast,it's Cizik, C-I-S-E-K,

Yeah.

um, it's called Play Dirty.
The record's gonna be coming outand people can see it.
And is there anything.
Else people need to know or theycan, they could check out.
Is there gonna be other thingsto watch for

I have

between now and then?

coming out on April 25th, and the album will be out
on May 30th.
Um, I

Awesome.

save up.
Um, I also have socials, so ifyou feel like following me or
checking out what I'm doing,that's, um, Robin Cizik, which
is R-O-B-I-N-C-I-S-E-K.
I also have a website.
I would be super excited to seeanybody come to my shows.
I've got a couple posted on myInstagram and my website there.
Um, if you do come, say hi tome.
I love talking to people.

Awesome.
Well, I really appreciate thetime that you took and like
diving into some rabbit holes ofyour career and story with me,
and it's been really awesome.
I, uh, my favorite thing aboutthis podcast so far, I'm gonna
let you know, Robin, is whensomebody writes me and it, it's
usually a friend or an olderfriend and they'll tell me,
they'll use some version of thephrase.

(01:06:19):
Like, I like that person.
I could totally hang out withthat person.
And you only know that bygetting to know them, by
eavesdropping on a conversation.
Or they'll say like, I needed topause and then go and listen to
the song you were talking about,or something like that.
So I'm, I'm excited for peopleto have that experience and get
to know who you are too.
And I just wanna wish you allthe best and thank you for the,

thank

for the time everybody.

It's

Yeah, my pleasure.

you about shop and about some of my new projects,
so I appreciate you having mehere.

Oh, that's great.
Uh, it's been awesome.
I look forward to seeing morefrom you.
Okay,

you.

awesome.
Take care, Robin.

You too.

Okay, bye-bye.

Bye.

alexi (01:07:02):
ready for next season,

Yeah.
I'm a little stressed about nextseason.
I am a little stressed thinkingabout next season, Lexi.
I.

alexi (01:07:09):
why you are doing so

Um, well, thank you.
I appreciate that.
But I, I don't know, you know, Ijust, I know that there's a
bunch of things I need to stilllearn and take some time to do
better, but I kind of don't wantto take the time off'cause I,
you know, like 12, 13 episodes.
Yeah.
Like, I feel like I'm just.
Learning, uh, just buildingmomentum.
I don't know, you know.
Anyhow, there's lots of thingsand I'm just this person who's

(01:07:33):
like, I don't want to put thatball down for a second.
I'm always afraid that itdoesn't get picked back up or
something.
My own little mental whatever,things to sort out.
But it's fine.
Thank you for taking some timetonight to talk about the
episode with me.
So Robin Cizik is, uh, somebodywho is new to me and on the

(01:07:53):
radar.
Um, I said radar, very funnythere.
anyhow, it was really aninteresting conversation.
I really enjoyed, a conversationwith her especially.
She was very.
quick and articulate, which isalways really nice and
refreshing when you talk tosomebody.
You just never know what toexpect and just very ah, just

(01:08:15):
very well.
Well, I said quick andarticulate already, but
specifically to.
The things she was talkingabout, which is, obviously her
music, her career, her choicesto kind of own things herself
and the absolute joy and prideshe takes in, do it yourself.
And, uh, I guess I've just seenso many people who treat, do it

(01:08:35):
yourself as kind of the onlyoption they have when nobody's.
Rushing to help them out, right?
So it's like, I guess I'll dothis myself.
Whereas she's like, no, I wantto do this myself.
Like this choice.
Um, yeah.
And there was that, and thenthere was the self-empowerment
part about, uh, her heritage andher family and her great

(01:09:00):
articulation about her Metisheritage and what that actually
means, Where she was from.
but mostly that I made a notethat she's being introduced on
the PR and the promotionalpieces as Metis Pop Singer, and
that's a conscious choice to putthat identification in there,
right?
It's like, I'm gonna be, I'mgonna be cautious, but I'm gonna

(01:09:24):
be openly transparent if I'mmaking.
Either mistakes or I can bemisunderstood or misinterpreted.
That's life.
But you know, in other, or letme take it out of race and
switch it to gender reallyquick, right?
Like it's very clear in theconversation that people don't
still want to be using the term.

(01:09:44):
You know, she's a female popsinger, she's just a pop singer,
right?
She's not a female guitarplayer, she's just a guitar
player.

alexi (01:09:52):
Yeah.

and so that's the translation to me, which is, I'm
accustomed now to people notwanting someone to put that
title and that tag on them.

alexi (01:10:03):
them in

Right?

alexi (01:10:04):
Like you don't, like a lot of people

Yeah.

alexi (01:10:06):
from titles because then

I.

alexi (01:10:08):
it's like if you like choose to not have a variable,
like in a name that you choose,it's like as soon as that's what
you're getting introduced aslike I.
It, it's gonna like come withassumptions and like, possibly
like, it's the fear of likegetting put in a box.

Yeah.
But

alexi (01:10:24):
me in that box.
Like that's the box I belong in.
Maybe like

yeah.
Well, and that's why I had toask'cause I wanted to understand
what the choice was.
'cause it's clear that it was achoice and I just wasn't
prepared for her to say, I.
I'm reclaiming something formyself and, and my mom and my
grandparents, right, whoweren't, they weren't given that

(01:10:49):
privilege because things were sodifficult that the common choice
was to hide it, or that theywere, as she said, white
presenting and they could getaway with some privilege.
And so they needed that and.
So for her to be able to reclaimthat, I just thought that was
really beautiful and honestly myfavorite part

alexi (01:11:09):
Well, and

of the conversation.

alexi (01:11:10):
recognize that like she's in a place where she can like,
choose to like celebrate it thenjust

Yeah.

alexi (01:11:18):
so openly and like, not be like, oh, well I wanna
celebrate it for myself and likereclaim it, but be like, well, I
wanna celebrate, like, the factthat it's like a generational
thing.
Like I think there's like

Yeah.

alexi (01:11:27):
a real beauty to that.

and, and I get, this was a little bit, maybe not
cool, but I, I referenced her asa young woman a few times and,
and really, let's just admitit's because I'm twice her age,
so, you know, like literally onthe number.
So.
that leaks out sometimes, but,but just to be so well informed
about her own culture, thatthere's no mistaking that for

(01:11:51):
her to claim it or reclaim it,to celebrate it, as you said,
doesn't, it's not with anyversion of, I don't understand
what people have gone through toget to where I get to be.
She fully understood that shewas fully aware of it all.
She was probably.
Ironically, more informed andembracing of her version of

(01:12:11):
privilege than most of the whitedudes that I know

alexi (01:12:15):
Yeah.

of theirs.

alexi (01:12:17):
Yeah.

Um, which is pretty incredible.
So all of that, you know, on topof the fact of just the music
parts where she was owning theproduction and owning the
different parts of the businessthat she enjoyed, and, and being
able to take her career.
In her music with that kind ofsimilar,

alexi (01:12:36):
Yeah,

knowledge and authenticity.
So all of that was just reallyrefreshing.
So I just really enjoyed that.
very powerful.
And I am very excited for her.
And I'm, you know, she has likea new fan in that way.
Like I really wanna watch hercareer now and just see

alexi (01:12:52):
Or

what things happen for her.
And that to me is part of whyI'm doing all of this too.
So That's exciting.
Yeah.

alexi (01:12:59):
Okay.
Well,

Yeah.

alexi (01:13:00):
for you then.

Okay.

alexi (01:13:01):
That's, it's on topic, but it's not on topic to what we
were talking about

Okay.

alexi (01:13:06):
within her discussion.
But first person that you've hadon the podcast, and I'm gonna
word this carefully, not thatyou don't have like a history
with, but.
First person, you didn't have aprior relationship established
pre

Well, a hundred percent.

alexi (01:13:22):
Right.
Okay.
put what were like

I.

alexi (01:13:26):
some of the like things you found really good about
that, and then what were somethings that you like found maybe
in the moment or now that you'rereflecting that like maybe you
were like, oh, like not so greatabout like that fact.
If there were any, if there evenwere any, but

Sure.
I mean, let's, okay, so let'squickly just take your first
premise a little further, whichnot only like I don't have
history with,

alexi (01:13:49):
Uhhuh

but there weren't even really any overlaps, right?
So.
I had no history with Kurt Dahl,the lawyer drummer, technically,
but there were so many overlapsin our history.

alexi (01:14:00):
has some

There was a lot of, there was.
Yeah.
It's almost like there was stillsomething there originally.
Um, so you're right, you'reright.
So this is like a 0%.
So, so what was, what was thepros of that?
Um.
The pros of that is that itforced me to do a little more
research on somebody, which issomething I really like to do

(01:14:22):
and I wanted to be able to do,and doing research on somebody
in their career and being ableto dig helps me.
I don't know.
I look for a picture I like.
Right?
From the very first episode withDan,

alexi (01:14:35):
Yeah.

I was so focused on being able to see what the
story is.
Where's the arc?
Like what's the thread like?
You can.
Look so often at people's justsingular moments like this
really happened for them andthis really happened for them.
But to look at the picture as awhole, and maybe I hadn't, I had
gotten a little, I'm not gonnasay I got lazy with a few of the

(01:14:58):
recent guests, but I didn't haveto work as hard.

alexi (01:15:00):
Yeah.

So I'd say the pro is that it maybe work a
little bit harder.
And then you're a little,there's just a different sort of
connect energy in a conversationwhen I'm trying to be on my
toes.
I don't know how, how to put it.
So that's a pro for sure.
So what's the con of havingabsolutely zero connection or

(01:15:23):
any of that kind of stuff?
it's really flipping the coin, Ithink from what I just said, is,
I tend to be, I rely heavily onrelational, like empathy and,
kindness and really wanting todraw the best out of somebody.
And that's very easy for me todo if I've already established

(01:15:44):
some premise of that.

alexi (01:15:45):
Yeah.

the con of doing just a straight interview as if
I was a part of the media withsomebody, to this degree
compared to the others.
Is that I being rathertransparent here, I can be left
feeling like I'm floundering alittle bit and, and I have to
keep the voices outta my headthat are trying to tell me like,

(01:16:07):
maybe you're not doing a verygood job of this.
Like, literally in the moment.
Do you know what I mean?
Um, so the cons are that, Thecon, well, maybe it's a pro and
someone could easily tell me itwas a pro, but, um, just being
kinda ripped out of a comfortzone, um, is a little bit
challenging, but it gives me arespect for sure.

(01:16:28):
Always.
I've always had that kind ofrespect.
But, but you know, me, I likemeeting new people and I like
getting into a realconversation.
I'm not really a small talk guy,so,

alexi (01:16:40):
Yeah.

so I felt like I.
Wasn't concerned.
I didn't mind navigating that,

alexi (01:16:44):
Were you

but

alexi (01:16:45):
all that like it might have been awkward?
That

a hundred, yeah.

alexi (01:16:49):
'cause sometimes it's not often and, there's times in my
life where I've met someone, andthis is like not in a group
setting, I'm saying like, it'slike you meet someone, like at
work, like you're leftone-on-one with someone new or
like just you like sit besidesomeone you don't know kind of
thing.
And sometimes I leave.
A situation and I'm like, wow.
Like that was not my best work.

(01:17:10):
Like I was kind of awkward.
Like that was a little bitstrange of me.
I didn't mean to say this thing.
I like say things I don'tusually say like, I wasn't like
myself like, or like the otherperson was awkward.
And then you walk away andyou're like, was that me?
Or like, like that was sostrange.
Like I feel like I'd be

Yeah,

alexi (01:17:27):
would be the case.

yeah.
And honestly, there was a periodin my life when I was younger,
but maybe not that far ago for alarge part of my life, I was
just so performative aboutfeeling like I had to get some
version of approval.
I.
From people.
Like, not in a weird way likethat.
It's just, you know, you kinda,I had a pretty good track record

(01:17:49):
of feeling like I could makepeople like me.

alexi (01:17:52):
Yeah.

Um, just full transparency.
So I got a little bit good atbeing over, uh, in those cases,
but I, I'm less like that nowand I especially don't want to
be like that in the podcast, youknow?
If I can be fully transparent, Ithink.
The part that I'm worried aboutof being awkward is that, and
this ties back to me having alot of people that I knew and

(01:18:15):
could build, I had, uh, I had afoundation of that empathetic
relationship already.
I don't have that with her.
she's, again, half my age,female.
In the industry who'sencountering a lot of
gatekeepers who look like me,who are cis white males, older
men,

alexi (01:18:35):
Yeah.

I'm, so, I guess, I'm so sensitive to that now and
what that feels like.
So I actually.
I actually had a couple ofminutes conversation with her
before the recording once we goton just to introduce myself and
to talk for a couple minutes,and I even told her that I'm
aware that I represent what canpotentially, because I don't

(01:18:59):
know her history be achallenging conversation,

alexi (01:19:01):
Yeah.

so I just wanted to know who I was and where I
was coming from and what mygoals of my questions are, and
that I just really wanted.
To give her a chance to tellwhatever stories she wanted.
And,

alexi (01:19:12):
Yeah.

and I want to draw the best things out of
what's happening in her liferight now.
So, so that actually happened atthe start because I guess rooted
back to your entire point ofquestioning,'cause I was a
little concerned,

alexi (01:19:24):
Yeah.

about what you know about.
It being awkward or something.
I got lots.
I got lots to learn.
I've got so much to learn doingthis kind of stuff, so it's
fine.
But this was a great, this was agreat learning

alexi (01:19:34):
Yeah.

for me.
Like he said, like first zero,zero base.
So,

alexi (01:19:39):
Well, I'm glad it went so great.

okay.
Well your mom wishes that I letyou talk more on these, and now
you ask me a question and makeme talk a whole bunch.
So she's still gonna be on.

alexi (01:19:48):
I was talking so much so I was like, okay, I need to ask
another

You've never been talking more than me, but, um,

alexi (01:19:55):
Anyone who knows me knows I get on tangents.

okay.
Well someday we'll have someversion of a comment section and
then we'll actually know whatother people think, rather than
just getting your mom'sfeedback,

alexi (01:20:07):
be a poll

but.

alexi (01:20:08):
more.

Maybe, but bless, you'll fill in the poll
yourself.
Uh, but ble bless her heart forlistening to all the episodes,
so I don't want to complain.

alexi (01:20:17):
Yeah.

But yeah,

alexi (01:20:18):
What a

that's it.
That's all.
Okay.
You're sweet.
Thank you so much for doing thisand asking me questions that I
like to answer.

alexi (01:20:25):
Oh, I like hearing the answers, so

Okay?

alexi (01:20:27):
me.

Okay.
Best of luck.
I'll see you early in themorning for the gym.

alexi (01:20:31):
Early in the morning.
Okay.
Bye.
Love you.

Okay.
Bye.
Love you.

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