ep15 Arlo Maverick planting seeds

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
In 2023, NPR produced a featurearticle in preparation for
celebrating 50 years of hip hopcalled All Rap is Local.
It was exploration through theformation of identity of hip hop
artists and their communities,city by city in America, with
the premise that while hip hopwas a global phenomenon, its
true impact needed to bemeasured in how it lives.

(00:22):
City by city, and despitebrowsing this case study in the
not so distant past, I foundmyself still operating on
assumptions about rappers in hiphop in Canada, in western
Canada.
In my own backyard, a middleclass white male observing hip
hop culture from predominantlyrural blue collar Canada is
bound to get it wrong, right?

(00:43):
Well, I did.
I assumed that the need and thedesire to escape with your music
or to use your music as anescape was even stronger in this
musical culture.
There were few inherentopportunities in contrast to a
glaring and obvious promise landout east, and you know what they
say about assuming ArloMaverick, the mc handle of over

(01:06):
20 years from Marlon Wilson, waskind enough to correct and erase
my assumptions very quickly.
His stories of developingskills, finding an audience, and
staying in the city he createsin.
Were affirming of the premise ofthis NPR article.
The way the hip hop communitysupports and champions itself
creates identity that alwaysincludes the place with the

(01:27):
person.
Marlon himself is perhaps thebest symbol of this premise,
always creating, always plantingseeds.
Marlon Wilson is an incrediblecommunity builder and artist.
His artistic career spans overtwo significant stretches with
the group politic live from 2002to 2012, and then as a solo
artist from 2016 to present day.

(01:48):
He's a prolific grant writer.
He's assisted in almost amillion dollars of funding.
He's a fantastic mentor to otherartists in the city.
He's a burgeoning filmmaker,bringing his passion and purpose
to every creative outlet.
He is a true local hero behindthe mc.
And you know what?
I've known this since 2007 whenMarlon needed our nonprofit

(02:10):
music board to reschedule ourmeeting because taking care of
his grandma was his priority.
And you know what prioritiesare, what heroes are made of.
My name is Glen Erickson.
This is Almost Famous Enough.
Thanks for spending your timewith us.
This is Arlo Maverick.

Glen Erickson (02:41):
Marlon Wilson, thank you so much for joining
me.
Marlon Wilson known to your.
Family and friends and maybeemployers, but, community at
large Edmonton and further knownas Arlo Maverick for probably
well over 20 years now.
Would you say?
Over 20 years.
Arlo Maverick.

Arlo Maverick (03:00):
Uh, probably, yeah, early two thousands.
Early two thousands.

Okay.
from the first time I knew youand watched like you're one of
the best community builderpeople in the industry that, uh,
I've met.
well let's just start there andsay like, there's a lot of
people I talk to.
In industry or communitybuilders who end up in different
roles that the artistic dreamdies either suddenly or just

(03:23):
tapers off slowly and painfully.
And then they keep their, theywanna keep their foot in it so
they move into other areas wherethey developed skills while they
were pursuing artistic dreams.
Right.
You are this different exceptionwho has just continued both
things and developing, which Ifind fascinating.
So I'd love to just gobackwards, uh, if that's okay,

(03:45):
Marlon, and then sort of traceour way through and, and, and
learn some things about what,what that's been like for you,
if that's all good.

Yeah.

And also, you were in the stu I tried to get
you a few nights ago and yousaid you were in the studio.
So I need to ask right off thebat, or is this like just, you
know, just putting in the timestudio or helping someone else?
Or are you working on somethingnew?

Working on,

Yourself.
That was my first, yeah.

on something new.
it'll be somewhat of a follow upto the last album, blue Collar.
with that, uh, just exploring adifferent side of the working
class.
So there's a lot of, uh, freshand different topics that are
gonna be explored on this one ascompared to the last one.

Okay.
let's just dive in right there.
'cause I, I'll get, I'll go allthe way back to the beginning in
a little bit.
But since we're here, like yousaid, your last full length
album, it's called Blue CollarExploring Certain subject Matter
obviously related to that.
So what was sort of, what werethe sort of the key elements
that you feel were part of BlueCollar that are different to

(04:45):
what you want to explore now?
'cause that's an interestingchoice to keep a thematic
progression

Uh,

through a couple records.

most of my projects are tied thematically.
with this latest one, as Imentioned, it's exploring more,
more things related to theworking class, but with blue
collar, the, and it stillcarries like a through line for
it, where essentially the albumbegins with a convocation
speech, and the convocationspeech speaks of all the.
opportunities that are added toyour doorstep and how all these

(05:14):
great things are gonna happen.
And then the song right afterthat, is a song that you get hit
with the reality that sometimesthe thing you go

Mm-hmm.

is not what you end up having the ability to
work.
Uh, you don't get a chance towork in that field.
So having to work a job thatdoesn't reflect your education,
doesn't reflect your, what youmay feel to be your merit, but
you still have bills to pay.
And so the album then goes downthis, uh, road of like realizing
that there are some people who,go to school for one thing.

(05:43):
Have bills to pay, have familyto feed.
So they go down this path.
And so what explores the workingclass, like, whether it be
having to work a night shift,which was one of the songs on
there.
Um, it also looks

Mm-hmm.

responsibility and the, the role of fatherhood
as it relates to providing for afamily.
You know, it even deals with,looking at your employer and
just the fact that some of usare literally giving ourselves
to a job in order for them topossibly get rid of us because
we're nothing of value to them,you know?
And so with this new

Yeah.

it transitions from working in a more blue
collar job to working in a morewhite collar job, but still
looking at, some of the,obstacles that come along with
that.
You know, and it's still, it'snot an album that is like so
heavy with the, the message andso dense, like it still has the
ability to, uh, make you dance,make you reflect.
Um, Bob Marley has always beenone of my favorite artists in a

(06:34):
great inspiration in the senseof how he's able

Hmm.

Take regular everyday topics, whether they
be, about struggle, whether theybe about love or anything like
that.
And just make it accessible andmake it still danceable.
So with this album here,

Yeah,

collar, you'll still be able to like enjoy it,
but it's not like I'm beatingover the head with a message
saying that, uh, you know,

yeah, yeah.

yeah.

Well that's always been the challenge,
right?
For songwriters to be like, howdo I, uh, if I'm gonna lean
heavily into truth telling.
how do I walk that line whereit's still not like you just
described either beating youover the head or making you feel
like that's, uh, solely what isgoing on.
And I mean, you always kindawalk a line.
I feel a little bit in the,like, the storytelling, truth

(07:17):
telling, they aren't necessarilythe same thing all the time, uh,
in songs and in music.
But you, you do seem to like towalk the line.
I'm just curious, maybe thentell me a little bit about your
own style, like how you've sortof developed your own style of
being able to do that.
Like when you write these songs,when you want to sort of move
thematically a little bitthrough and you're a point to

(07:37):
get across, but you're not justsaying it, you're sort of
telling it through the pictureor the image of somebody you're
talking about or a situation.
And so how, what's yourapproach?
How, how have you sort of workedthat out over the years?

well, it's, it's funny because as hip hop has
progressed over the years, it'sbecome more about the self.
Where a lot of the hip hopartists that I grew up listening
to in my earlier years, likewhether it be, Tupac, public
Enemy, Chuck D, CS one, like alot of these guys were telling
stories where they were talkingabout specific subjects or, um,
a specific individual or asituation, and they found a way

(08:12):
to tell a story to make it moreaccessible to people.
Because at the end of the day,like there's a reason why we
have these, uh, blockbusterfilms that do well or Netflix
does well is because as humanbeings we are drawn to a
narrative.
And so finding ways to, connectthat story, whether it's my
story or the story of somebodyelse to a, a, a larger audience
for them to be able to seethemselves in a lot of these
stories.
Like when I look at a song likeNight Shift, like it's literally

(08:36):
looking at the fact of like,you're making these sacrifices
for your family and doinghorrible damage to your body by
going from like, uh, a nightshift to a day shift, doing
shift work.
But

Hmm.

same time though, like you understand that you
are.
You are a provider, you're aprotector.
You have to meet theseobligations in order for your
family to thrive, in order foryou to get outta the situation
you're in.
So being able to, take my ownpersonal experiences, but also
be a, a listener to other peoplewho are saying that, Hey, like
this is what I'm going through,so on and so forth.
And, a lot of music that I make,it tends to come from

(09:07):
conversations I have with peoplewhere I'm just like, that should
be a song, you know?
And so once

Hmm.

bulb goes off, I'll pull up my notepad and I'll
start writing down ideas, orI'll be driving my car and just
put on a beat and then juststart possibly freestyling
coming over the ideas.
And then once I get those ideas,I'll either work on them myself
or bring them to mycollaborators and be like, Hey
guys, like, here's some ideas.
And the great thing about whereI'm at in my career now is that,
Edmonton as a city as it relatesto hip hop music didn't

(09:36):
necessarily have, We've alwayshad great MCs.
We've always had, uh, greatproducers, but now I feel like a
lot of us have learned so muchand we have access to so much
information that allows us tobecome better at what we do.
And so now I have people I canlean on in a way that I wasn't
able to in the earlier years ofpossibly politic live or
anything like that.
So, that process then, uh, willbe me bringing ideas to them and

(09:58):
then like shooting some of thoseideas down and saying, no,
that's not a good idea.
Or having them saying, Hey, whydon't we

Yeah.

Why don't we try that?
And then we, work at it to, tothe point that it's something
that can be shared with theworld.

Well, I mean you mentioned in there your
influences, you mentionedpolitic lives, so you sort of,
the first thing that I guessgets on the radar for most
people.
'cause we all have things we'redabbling in when we're young,
but then there's the first thingthat really gels and starts to
take off and people respond toyou.
So for you, it seems like thatwas politic live.
Which, you know, if Wikipedia isright, 2002 seems like that was

(10:35):
the start.
And that was a, a gellingbetween you and some cousins and
a friend who was a DJ and, andgetting all that going.
And you obviously had yourinfluences and I think
regardless of genre, like thisis a pretty common denominator
of we start to try to recreateour influences in our first
version.
So maybe you could,'cause that'swhere I first knew you, you were

(10:56):
in politic live right at thetime when I first ever met you.
So, how was that?
2002, 2012?
The journey in that group fromwhen it started trying to
recreate your influences?
Like, I'm wondering how thatsort of played out for that
group for you at that time.

well, we were heavily influenced by our West
Indian background.
Um, so that was something thatwas always present.
but we were also influencedheavily by a lot of, like New
York based MC so it was verymuch, much more bar heavy as far
as like, you had to like, comeup with this rhyme that was
gonna be like this deep doubleentendre.
But at the same time though, youhad to also

Hmm.

that would allow your music to possibly get onto
the radio, possibly get into thenightclub, because those were
the outlets before Spotify orYouTube.
and, and even much music to anextent, right?
And so for us, we were inspiredby so much because of the fact
that we were kids who grew up onhip hop, like in Edmonton,
Alberta, of all places.
So, um, we had.

Yeah.
Yeah.

Which is weird because there's been a long, uh,
scene here.
It's been, it's gotten bigger,but it started out quite small.
But we, um, had access to hiphop magazines.
We had access to people like,master T from much Music and Rap
City.
We had access to, um, what wascoming out of the US through,
uh, whether it be records.
We had radio here.
So all of these things, and evenlike, again, much music was

(12:15):
probably like the biggest factorbecause that's where we got to
see the culture and hear theculture all within one.

Mm-hmm.

and

Mm-hmm.

so on and so forth.
So all of that begins to, impactour, our style and also the
scene around us as well too.
Because there were hip hop MCs,there were, DJs as well, two
producers who some actuallytook, took us underneath our,
took us under their wings andkind of showed us the way.
So as we're beginning to formthis thing called Politic Live,
this is after years of kind ofbeing in an incubator.

(12:46):
What possibly the most,important, person to that time
period would've to be agentleman by the name of Ock.
'cause he literally like put usinto like a bootcamp where we
were like learning how to writerhymes or we're learning how to
write rhymes better, I shouldsay.
Um, also learning how to bebetter performers.
And so that ends up impactingour styles to the point that

(13:06):
when we went into the studio, oreven when we're writing now,
we're cognizant of how is thissong going to be performed, you
know?
we're also

Yeah.

of, what is the format?
'cause I remember when I firststarted out, the typical hip hop
hip structure for a hip hop songwas three 16 bar verses, but we
didn't understand how to countbars whatsoever.
So we had like verses that wenton for like 32 bars and like,
there was like a chorus thatwould maybe be like four bars.
And it's just like, no, that'snot gonna work.
You know?
So having.

(13:34):
OGs in the scene to help us andlike give us guidance was so
important.
Kada, pinoc was one of thosepeople.
And so as we move into, um,creating our music and also
performing, because as you know,at that time period, like
studios cost so much money.
And so,

Yeah.

performances where we really began to
understand, what worked and whatdidn't work, and also how to put
together songs.
Because if you're losing anaudience, that means there's
something wrong with thewriting.
There's something wrong withthe, the structure of the song.
Because if you're performing,

Hmm.

you are verse going on for 32 bars, then trim
it down.
So understanding the 16 barformat, understanding what a
bridge was, understand'causethese are things that, that
we're not being taught.
We're listening to our,

Yeah.

who we idolize and the people who we see as
icons, but we're not fullyunderstanding the science behind
what they're doing until we hadsomeone step in to be like, Hey,
this is what you guys should bedoing.
This is how it's done.

Okay.
That's, so that's kind ofamazing.
'cause like I said, like commondenominator.
Yeah.
Most of us are just listeningand trying to replicate our
idols or, you know, and, anddrilling down further and
further as we get better andunderstand more, right.
Like to song structure and allthis kind of stuff, and realize
that like, oh yeah, pop musicdoes this all of the time.
Right.
And, and you know, and for me itwould be like, this version of

(14:48):
indie rock specifically does theopposite for a reason or
something like that.
But you figure that out.
It's the path you wanna follow,but.
Not very often does someone say,I had a mentor or a person come
along.
You know, like, uh, so you saidhe gave you like a bootcamp.
I'm just curious, like, what didthat literally look like?
Is the guy like pulling togetherlike Marlon and his two cousins

(15:10):
and saying, I want you to dothis, and then you're coming
back on Friday and you're doingyour rhymes for me.
Like what does,

did

what did that look like at that time?
What he was doing to try to helpand, and shape you and what you
were working on?

part of that, and it's interesting because it's,
um, good friend Fabian Meyers,his, cousin, Kada Ock was the
guy who mentored us.
So we essentially school's done,we go over to Kato's Place and
it was either, we were, one ofthe things that was important
for, for him to communicate tous, and this is something I
don't think happens as often asit should, is that he was

(15:44):
someone who was maybe about fouror five years older than us,
right.
So he would actually like sit usdown and play us records, or
show us music videos and like.
us like, do we understand what'sgoing on?
Do we, do we hear this?
Do we hear that?
And all of a sudden now we'rebeginning to understand, okay,
that's what production is.
That's how you make a good musicvideo.
'cause I remember had a musicvideo, I can't remember which

(16:06):
one it was, but it was one wherewe were just like blown away by
that.
And it's just like we're askinghim, how do you come up with
these concepts?
And so he's allowing us tobetter understand what that all
looks like.
Even Alberta music, the firsttime I was ever told about
Alberta Music or Factor wascourtesy of this gentleman here.
And so he was teaching

Mm-hmm.

the, um, artistic side, but also teaching us the
business side.
And so even when he came toperformances, like he would make
us run through performances liketwo or three hours.
And like all of our friends whowere into music, like they were
just like, why are you guysdoing that?
And it's just like, but thenwhen you saw us on stage, it
began to make sense because hewas teaching us

Mm-hmm.

an audience.
Like making sure that we hadenough movement on stage, making
sure that we understood mictechnique.
'cause rappers we have horriblemic technique.
We just wanna look cool.

Well, I mean, like, that's amazing kind of,
right?
Because, like now there's, Ithink we can agree there's a lot
more people like that around, orat least people who have tried
to create some programs orstructures and get funding so
that artists might have accessto somebody.
Who does that, right?
Who can point you in the rightdirection.
Like you even said, like ifAlberta Music and in Canada,
really all the provincial musicassociations have been very good

(17:16):
at, trying to provideopportunities, even if it's just
meet and greets or programs touh, give people the opportunity
to get some of those real basiclow hanging fruit answers that
they need just to start moving.
But to have a, a person likethat, uh, is pretty significant.
Um, so the other thing you alsosaid, by the way, which was like

(17:36):
in Edmonton, you felt like youhad access and you started
naming some things, but you,because we obviously we had, you
know, radio that was tapped intoall the radio across the country
in the same way.
And like, in Canada we're stillconsidered a major city.
So, but it's still, NorthernAlberta, Western Canada, So for
a guy like me on the outside of,of hip hop, right, and, and both

(18:00):
like music culture and culturein general, right?
I'm an observant only at thattime especially, I would never
make the assumption that youwould have felt like you had
access.
I, I get that much music was aNorth star for sure in our
country and maybe, especiallycoming outta the nineties into
the early two thousands.
That totally makes sense.
So I'm just, I, I'm reallycurious about that because I

(18:21):
think I would've had thecomplete wrong assumption that
Edmonton was an absolute desertwasteland

it

for your aspirations as an artist, and it
wasn't.
So, uh, I'm just really curiousif you could just tell me a
little more of what that lookedlike when you were starting out,
what, what the scene lookedlike, and even compared maybe to
what you feel like it looks likenow.

well this is what's so fascinating is that
like when I look at the sceneback then, compared to now, I
feel like, and this is justpretty much something that's
happened all across the boardbecause of social media.
Like people don't go out, peopledon't actually go to hip hop
nights or even just music nightsperiod.
Like, open mics or

Hmm.

just going to shows was so important.
'cause that's where you metpeople, that's where you
connected and said, Hey, like,who are you?
So on and so forth, you know?
But if I'm going back to thattime period, like we had, this
is what's so fascinating aboutEdmonton, is that we've always
had a small burgeoning hip hopscene, that goes back to like
this, the late seventies, youknow?
Um, with the documentary

Hmm.

been uh, doing over the last few years, I've
been able to uncover a lot ofthis stuff.
So when it came to radio, we hadCGSR, which was.
they had T-E-D-D-Y who had the,the black experience in sound.
We had DJ Roach, and when I wasin junior high, I was introduced
to 88.5, as we called it, whichwas CJSR.
And so they had

Yeah, campus Radio for those listening, like,
which, you know, has a prettysignificant place in a lot of
cities across Canada.
Sorry, continue.
Yeah.

the US as well too.
But in Canada and morespecifically Edmonton, we had.
Shows in which people werefinding ways to get the music.
And I tip my hat off to thembecause at that time period,
like we don't have Spotify, wedon't have, Torrance.
We don't have Napster.
We have people who actually justlove this music and love this
culture and say, I wanna makesure this is President Edmonton.

(20:05):
People need to hear this.
And so, we have that, plus wehave a lot of, like have a lot
of like, team parties going onat that time where people would
allow us to get up on the micand, and do our thing.
'cause we're seeing what we'reseeing coming outta Toronto.
We're seeing what we're seeingcoming out of, the us.
But at the same time, the, we'realso seeing people from our
scene who actually are creatingsongs like, uh, 1993, um, the

(20:28):
Maximum Definitive, which waslike the first breakout hop ad
from Western Canada.
Not just Alberta, but WesternCanada.
They end up getting a much musicaward for their music video for
Jungle Man and getting ajuvenile nomination.
So at that point in time.
There's things that arehappening.
And so because these things arehappening and we have record
stores, were a big thing as welltoo.
Like, people would go andcommunicate and understand the

(20:49):
culture.
And before, before my time, youhad roller rinks where people
would actually go and they'dhave B-boys and B girls who'd be
breaking.
But you also had the music thatthey needed to break too, being
played at these locations.
And so there's always beenthings in our city, but the
unfortunate thing is that it'salways, you always had to know
what was going on.
'cause if you didn't know whatwas going on, then you were

(21:12):
completely left out of it.
And for me, I've just alwaysbeen someone who, has wanted to
create.
Right?
And so eight.
I throw my first concert ever inmy drama room.
I convinced my drama teacher tolet me throw a concert at
lunchtime, and I didn't knowwhat I was doing.
And I think it just came fromme, like just, just watching all

(21:33):
these guys who were in thesemagazines, like they were
entrepreneurs.
I'm just like, yeah, I'm gonnathrow a hip hop concert,

Yeah.

the concert.
We had rehearsed for like almosttwo weeks, but I had, I
understood promotion as much asa a, a great eighter could.
And I understood puttingtogether a show as much as a
great eighter could.
But I didn't understand like,the technicality of like
actually like putting on a show.
And so luckily my, uh, dramateacher like helped me because
he played in a band when he wasyounger and so helped me put on

(22:01):
the show and the, the wholeschool was just like, wow, like
you are a rapper.
It was just like so crazy.
'cause like I on this show thatallowed for people to see that
hip hop could exist within ourschool and let alone our city,
you know?

Yeah.
That, uh, I mean thatvalidation, right?
Isn't that the thing that, like,that that's fuel for like years.
Like I.
Like, you do that one thing andeverybody responds well and then
says, oh, you're a rapper.
Well that, like all of a suddenyou got to hang your hat on an
identity that you wanted.
that definitely carries usthrough.

(22:34):
I think it's funny, like if wego back, we can start to draw
threads in our life betweenpeople or experiences like that.
Like even from that to, youknow, to the, to the people that
you said were sort of mentoringin the early two thousands and
in the scene.
Anybody who steps up and sort ofis willing to sort of put that
check mark on your efforts andgive those validation marks or

(22:57):
sort of feel like, like thelittle signposts that we hit
along the way that kept usgoing.

a hundred

Um, I don't know if that's has been your
experience all along.

Yeah.
No, I would say, um, becausewhat's interesting is that, I
get introduced to the idea ofwriting rhymes in church, um,
when, uh, she was a girl at thetime, but she's an older woman
now by the name of DebbieCarpenter.
Um, her family was like thecoolest family in the world.
And so one day we're in the backof church and she's writing a

(23:27):
rhyme and I never saw anybody doit before in my life.
And so me seeing her go throughthe process of writing the rhyme
and like, she's literally likescribbling things out and like
saying, nah, I'm gonna say this,and so on and so forth.
And I'm just like, wow.
Like this is how it's done.
So me seeing how that process isdone, I went home and wrote
something and I.
That kind of starts the wholething.

(23:48):
But the thing about though isthat, as you said, those, those,
uh, the validation you get onthe way of you're doing the
right thing.
And like having people like KadaPennock, having people like Don
Joyce who played a big role inthe sense of giving us like
multiple opportunities to fallon our face.
Like we would as politic live atthat point in time, we were
known as straight lac.

(24:08):
And so we're doing these showsin which like, we're now taking
what Cada has taught us andwe're living it out in real
time.
And sometimes it's working,sometimes it's not.
And then we have to go back tothe drawing board and figure
out, okay, what didn't work,what did work?
But every time you got thatvalidation, as you, as you
mentioned, like all of a suddenit's just like, I'm doing
something right.

(24:28):
So then you, like, you continueto build on that and that, does
give you fuel to keep goingbecause at the end of the day,
like there's so many people whogive up along the way because,
uh, and it's not to say thevalidation is the only thing
that motivates you, but.
That can help you, and reassureyou that you're on the right
path, that you're doingsomething right, and sometimes
in life we

Yeah,

You know?
Doesn't matter who you are.

yeah, so politic live.
Obviously didn't stay regionallylandlocked.
You guys started to find someopportunities.
You got to open for some tours,you know, getting past and out,
you know, we have our heroes.
We sort of talked about thatreally quick, that inspire you
to do the thing.
But I, I've learned in my lifethat it's often seeing, like you

(25:11):
had already, alluded to asomebody local who has done it.
Like you saw somebody who got aJuno nom, you know what I mean,
from Edmonton.
Like, am I bound to stay inEdmonton, forever?
like how many places were thereto play?
Like how quickly do you need tostart trying to get outside of
Edmonton, to be able to do whatyou want to do?

(25:31):
Like how soon did that happen?
How easy were thoseopportunities for you?
cause you, you need to get outof Edmonton and then get some of
those validation pieces back tosay, oh yeah, this works
somewhere else too.
And that's a huge step in acareer.
How, how does that happen foryou trying to get out of
Edmonton?

oddly enough, our first out of town show, was in
with Task Win.
And us piling into a car,driving out to Aquin and
performing to, uh, the place wascalled Club 1 4 7 Billions, if
I'm not mistaken.
Uh, it was run by a gentleman bythe name of, uh, Clark, and Don
Joyce was one that connected uswith those shows.
He was a promoter for that, thatevent.
And now we were performing infront of an audience of people

(26:13):
who we did not know in a, in acity that was like 45 minutes
away.
Right.
And when you're in your teens,that seems like a big deal,
right?
And then from there, from there,Kelowna, Victoria, and all of a
sudden Toronto and Winnipeg, andwe started doing all these
things.
And it's like the need to beable to, and this is where,

(26:35):
where it's tough for, Canadianhip hop in the sense that still
till today there's not enoughoutlets and venues for us to be
able to go into other markets.
And so you're kind of.
limited to the point wheresometimes you have to go
overseas or go to the us, so onand so forth.
But, we did have the opportunityto go into other markets, where
we were able to not only justrepresent for ourselves, we

(26:58):
represent for Edmonton as welltoo, because most people don't
think there's a hip hop scene inEdmonton.
So we became ambassadors or flag

Yeah.

you know, and as we're going to these

Yeah.

we're getting people who are saying like, yo,
that's, you guys are prettygood, or, like your music, or
whatever the case may be.
Now it's just like, okay, cool.
But then there's still thosepeople who aren't one over it.
And then you're just like, okay,again, back to the drawing
board, how do we win over the,these people?
You know?
And slowly but surely

Yeah.

building your body of work to the point that
when you go into these markets,people have heard about you
through something else thatyou've done or, and keep in
mind, like, and this is what'sso.
and you could probably relate tothis, is that as your career is
growing and ascending, so is theworld of the internet.

(27:43):
And so with those,

Hmm.
Hmm.

you are seeing the growth in yourself, but
you're also seeing the growth ofthe internet.
Because I remember when we had,uh, launch Star first website,
politic lab.com, we had, uh, amovie player on there.
We had we had a message board onthere.
Um, we had our news, we hadphotos, like we went all out.
'cause it was just like we hadbeen studying websites for years
and we're like, we want thiswebsites to be amazing and like

(28:07):
that.
In itself became a validationpiece.
'cause now people took itseriously in the sense of like,
wow, these guys have a website,they have their music in much,
uh, in HMV, and they're goingand doing these shows in
different markets and so on andso forth.
And as

Yeah.

shouldn't be what gets people behind you, things
like that, get people behind youbecause everyone's trying to set
up a band, everyone's trying todo music.
So when you start showing thatyou're actually serious about
it, people start to take youmore seriously.
You know?
Well, that's,

Well that's, that's been part of the thing
all along, right?
Like you've been long enough forthis career and I don't know if
people always realize just thatthat's been the same story, just
a different version.
Like, it's funny to me that yousaid that about the website,
like now.
We've already, I think we'vealready gone through it and
we're probably moving past it,maybe we're not.
Where, like bands or artiststhat were quote unquote blowing

(28:58):
up, uh, for one reason oranother, like you couldn't get
signed for.
It felt like the last six, sevenyears, or the story goes unless
you like, had like this massiveinfluencer like following on
social media, right?
Like all of a sudden that becamemore important than other
factors in the music.
Sometimes even probably true.

(29:18):
So it's funny that you said likea website would like tell people
that you had, that you meantbusiness, that you were actually
for real.
Because, because the, thegatekeepers, right?
You run into'em and you wouldkeep hearing the rhetoric.
This is one of the hard thingsabout an aspiring artist is the,
the kind of, the version of,it's not just no, right?
Like I think the whole worldknows like.

(29:39):
The artist has gone through thislife of hearing a thousand
million nos, but it's, it's whatkind of No.

yeah.

That we're talking about here, right?
We're talking about, the, no,like I don't think you're for
real.
Like if for someone to actuallysay, I don't think like you're
actually, For real or taking itseriously.
that's a hard one.
That's a really hard one tohear.
And so, but the website one'sfunny to me because like, we're
talking early two thousands andso you're right.

(30:07):
Like most bands didn't own theirown domain name.
That's the point.
Like most band websites weresomething geo cities maybe still
are.
Or some, some like, like versionof somebody that started like,
yeah.
Where you could do some freewebsite builder and it was, and
it was awful.
So any band that looked likethey had the know-how or the

(30:30):
time or investment to have likeeven their own domain name felt,

here's the,

felt like huge.

We actually changed our group name because
we couldn't get a.com.
'cause dot coms is what, ma,what made people take you
seriously?
I.

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

we could.
I'm just like, we need to geta.com so we end up changing our
name in order for us to geta.com.
how important like

Wow.

at that time, you know?

It's funny how that shapes stuff too.
That's crazy.
'cause now it doesn't reallymatter.
But you're right.
I, I've mean that's how I'vepaid my bills for my life, is
learning how to build websitesfor people.
And that was the issue forever.
Right.
It is like, it's like, yeah,you're, if you don't, if you
can't buy a.com, you're notlike, it's really kind of
stupid.
It's like how I was telling thisstory to somebody else.
Like when I tried to release, Iwent to release a solo EP under

(31:17):
the name Glenroy.
And what I wanted to do wasremove all the vowels so that
like the brand right, would justbe like these big, bold, just
consonants.
And when I tried to submit it toSpotify, because I'm not a
proven artist, they refused it.
They refused it because myname's Glenroy.
But I was showing somethingdifferent in the brand on the,

(31:37):
on the cover art.
They were denying the cover art.

crazy.

I, I wrote back and I'm like, but what about
MGMT?
And they're like, well, they'reMGMT.
And I'm like, well, they weren'talways MGMT.
Uh, yeah.
Anyhow.
So it's funny how stupid thingslike that happen.

We had shot a music video for a song off of
our first album.
Uh, the album was calledNotoriety.
And the song was called Precise.
And it was like the song thatwhen people heard the album, um,
this is back in the days of CDs,people would skip to number 10
or they would get to number 10and they'd be like, oh my gosh,
and just repeat the song, right?
So it became as song, it becameso like, so popular to the point

(32:15):
where people would be like,yeah, song number 10.
They didn't know the name of thesong, right?
It's just like, oh, precise.
So we shoot a music video forit.
Uh, teaming up with, a couplestudents from NAIT.
And in hindsight, the videowasn't really the best.
But at the same time though,we're just like all excited.
We're like, yo, we're gonna havea music video and we're gonna
put on much music.
'cause that's how big musicvideos were at the time, right?
And so we submit

Mm-hmm.

and it gets denied, right?
And then we're just like, wow.
So we shoot two more of themusic videos with, um, NAIT
students as well too, getdenied.
They're not accepting it.
So then we team with, um.
Michael Maxis and we film amusic video which we shot in LA
where I saw the matinee off ofour second album, adaptation.
And after we shot that video,like the music video did really

(32:58):
well because it was shot on 35millimeter film.
And so it's getting and mediumrotation on much vibe and light
rotation on much music.
So people are seeing it prettymuch almost every single day.
And that gave us so muchvalidation'cause people were
just like, you have a musicvideo on much music, you know?
And like, because at that pointin time, like most artists, let
alone hip hop artists fromEdmonton didn't have music

(33:18):
videos.
'cause that was

Yeah.

was reserved for artists who had labels or people
who understood the video factssystem.
And that changed so much for us.
And it's interesting now becausenow music videos are things that
people are like, don't wasteyour time on them.
You know, it's like the art ofcreating music videos has been
completely lost.

It's too high a cost.

Wait and no one, like, because of the fact that
we don't have to sit down andwait for.
Music videos to come on.
Our lives are so different now.
I still believe in, in musicvideos and I still think that
artists should create them, butI do understand why artists
don't want to make them anymorebecause it's just like, you
know,

Well, I mean, it's, it's a promo.
It always was just a new way topromote the artist, right?
Like as soon as the format camearound and somebody was willing
to, you know, create a channel,so to speak, in the only place
you could see the format, wellrecord labels and, and the
marketing departments were alllike, we have to do this.

(34:15):
And then of course it became arace to the top of like, who
could have the most crazy wild.
Investment videos to, but thepayoff was there, right?
Like the payoff was there.
And, and I agree with you.
I still think it's important,but we have all these other
video formats now that peopleconsume and it's in a different
way, like you said, it's moreimmediate.

(34:37):
It doesn't feel like, you know,like why would you, you know,
invest$45,000 in producing, youknow, a three and a half minute
music video the way they usedto.
When people are getting way moreengagement with people in, in
very organic means through thevarious platforms that we all

(34:58):
carry on our device.
But the principle is I thinkvery much the same.
Right?
Like, so you politic live about2002, 2012.
You guys go through that.
That's a certain, likeeverything you've been
describing, that was a certainera.
Right.
And everybody listening, and youand I talking both know that the

(35:20):
era is different now, right?
Like, so you release your firstown own album as Arlo Maverick
in 2016.
So 2016 to 25 whole new era.
Like, like, so you're basically,you're living in two different
versions of what it means toaspire, and the artist.
So let me, let me ask you firstthe question, like in between

(35:42):
those two, like, and I know thedates that we can see aren't
always the exact dates.
So however politic live kind ofwound down and shifted to you
pursuing your continuing yourpursuits, just under Arlo
Maverick.
Was that, was that for you evenplaying?

(36:07):
Were you still just I'm stillmoving along.
I'm still chasing the same thingor.
Was that a dip?
Was that a, I don't know if Ihave another chance at this.
I don't know if I should keepgoing.
I don't know if anybody wants meto keep going.
Like what were you going throughsort of between those kind of
major pursuits for you?

Okay.
So I personally did not wantpolitical at the end.
my cousin, um, had recentlygotten married was having a
second child.
And, being a parent and being anartist is not an easy thing
because you have to give up alot, on one end in order for you
to, uh, be successful

Yep.

end, you know?
Um, and so with The PoliticLive, uh, with Politic Live, uh,
gritty, gave up a lot, andwasn't able to spend as much
time with his, his son as hewanted to.
His son was always around, butat the same time though, there'd
be times where, be on the roador now we're focusing on
recording, so on and so forth.
So, as, we began to work, workon Ellipsis, which was the final

(37:06):
politic lab project, he wasabout to have a, a newborn.
He had recently gotten married,and so for him, he's like, I
think you should be a soloartist.
And I never wanted to be a soloartist.
If you look at the.

Mm.

from 2002 to 2012.
we released politic lab albums.
We also released like, uh,collaboration albums with the,
with the label and Big and

Mm-hmm.

solo projects.
But I was the only one whodidn't have a solo project.
And so he's like, I think youshould pursue this as a solo
artist.
And I'm just like, okay.
And then so I start creatingthis album and just my doubts
and my fears anyone would wantto listen to an album of me by
myself.
Like it really, plagued thealbum.

(37:52):
Um, we also had some otherthings happen as well too that
kind of just led to the albumtaking longer to come out
because the album was supposedto be released, 2014.
but yeah, there was just like alot of things going on.
And then,

Hmm.

because I have a background in marketing, I
wanted to make sure the albumwas right and applying the
funders to make sure we can getthe proper, like marketing
budget, get videos, get uh,virtual performances, ads, and
so on and so forth.
Like that took some time initself.
And, 2016 when it dropped, thisis what's so fascinating, is
that it drops and it's havingall this success as an

(38:27):
independent artist, but there'sstill a lot of things that a lot
of the goals that I had setweren't actually coming to
fruition.
I'm just like, maybe it's timeto just like, just stop.
And I remember, um, I was outin, Toronto for an aunt's uh,
birthday.
The whole family had like a hugereunion and my cousin Chris was

(38:50):
dropping me off at the airportand I actually went to his place
and had a writing retreat tocreate maybe tomorrow.
And so he asked me, so what'sgoing on with music?
And I'm just like, uh, well, I.
Maybe tomorrow's out now it'sdone good, but it hasn't done
what I expected it to do.
And I'm kind of in a place whereI'm not sure where I want to go.
I'm like, there's an opportunitythat's supposed to be coming up
and I'll, if it happens, thenthat'll kind of dictate where

(39:13):
things go.
Lily, as I got back to Edmonton,within like maybe two weeks or
so, found out that we had, orthat I had been accepted to, uh,
do a third party showcase, uh,that was attached to Madam, I
got accepted to play SundariFesta in South Korea, uh, up and
downtown festival.
and, north Country Fair.

(39:33):
There was just like all thisstuff that just like came in
like shortly after that.
And I'm just like, okay.
And we just powered through thatwhole summer.
And that was my, again, thevalidation that you need.
And it is, I don't think Iwould've stopped entirely, but I
think that I would've possiblyjust moved into more of a
mentorship role and teachingwhat I've learned.
But when those things began tohappen, I'm just like, okay.

(39:55):
And then.
So summer 2017 was just like sobusy for us.
Um, and then going into 2020,uh, sorry, 2018 again, we
started getting morenotifications about festivals
and overseas stuff, and it'sjust like, okay, this album is
finally doing what it needs todo.
And I think that if there'sanybody out there listening, I

(40:16):
think they have to be mindful ofthe fact that, you're planting
seeds and you're watering them.
So give them time to get towhere they need to be.
Because if this would've been2002, I wouldn't have
questioned.
I like the album had only beenout for a year, right?
I know that was, uh, like, no,what was it?

(40:37):
Yeah, it hadn't even been outfor a year.
And, and like I was now havingthese, these, these doubts where
it's just like.
And maybe it could be age, maybeit could just be the time period
I was in my life.
but had it been earlier in mycareer, I don't think I would've
had those doubts.
'cause it would've been like,okay, cool,

Hmm.

we're planting the seeds.
Let's see what happens.
Let's keep working.
And it's like, it's not to sayyou stop working once the album
drops,'cause that's when you'rein overdrive, right?
the

Yeah.

it was getting was great chart activity in
Canada and the US for campusRadio.
It was doing really well.
But we got to, but certainagain, just goals that I had set
and bench and like, uh,benchmarks or whatever you wanna
call them, those weren't comingthrough.
And at that point in time I'mjust

Yeah.

did I fail?
But I,

Yeah.

you know, but.

But, but you, you, it's funny'cause you just
offered some advice in there,which is because literally in my
mind, I was gonna ask you thequestion, what, what do you,
'cause you spend a lot of timementoring people now in the
city.
I think it's like, uh, it's,it's really.
Really cool.
And you've like, you've been a,a really great influence on a

(41:47):
lot of people that I've justseen.
I've watched their careers andI've always known that you're
attached to a lot of people in,in certain ways.
so you're a big part of beingable to offer really great
advice and perspective.
So I was gonna ask you thequestion, like, what do you tell
people now when they're in thatmoment of doubt, as you said,
when they're not so sure becauseyou always have some voices

(42:09):
around you, like even peoplevery close to you right?
Will be telling you like, maybeit's not your thing.
Like you had some fun for awhile.
Maybe you need to do your thing.
And like, even specifically tohow you sort of told that story.
Relatable for me.
You know, my band, theconversation.
Around pizza the night we werepretty sure we were done.

(42:33):
One of the predominantsentiments from one of the
members was like, I don't thinkit's gonna happen.
Like, if some, if they weregoing to latch onto it, they
would've latched onto it by now.
And, and, you know, but you'retalking about believing in the
seeds that you were sowing,right?
So I mean that's, is that, uh,is that sort of the common way

(42:55):
you would approach somebodywho's unsure whether they
should, and I'm not talkingabout people who are just
starting out and they've like,had two gigs and they're asking
your advice.
I'm talking about somebody whois like, tried to go through an
album cycle, has tried to likedo the whole thing, right.
And feel like, is it, is itcatching any traction?

(43:16):
Uh, is there a next level or notfor me?
Like, is that, is there otheraspects of advice you give to
artists like that?

one of the things that I'm, I'm very adamant on
all artists doing is documentingtheir journey.
Um, necessarily have to documentit through video, but at least
document it in the sense of whatshows have you done, what songs
have you released, whatsuccesses have those things had,
so on and so forth.
Because there's gonna come atime, and it happens to

(43:44):
everybody.
Even the most successful personwho will sit on a panel and be
like, if you ever have toquestion whether or not you
should be doing this, you shouldnot be doing it like that.
To me, that's, that's, that'scomplete bs, right?
Because as human

Yeah.

are going to have those moments where we're just
like, should I be doing this?
Right?
And when those moments come,encourage artists to reflect
upon what, on what they've beenable to achieve, and just look
back at that stuff and be like,okay, like I've come this far.
Why am I, why am I quitting?
And then also look at it fromthe standpoint of who in the

(44:17):
marketplace do you most identifywith?
And look at their trajectory,look at what they're doing and
see if there's ways that youcould say, okay, hey, like they
have accomplished this.
What are some things withintheir journey that I can, take
and apply to my journey to makesure that I can keep going?

(44:38):
Right?
Because sometimes it's a matterof not necessarily just giving
up, but just tweaking certainthings, you know?
And so, yeah,

Mm-hmm.

yourself with people who are going to, to
encourage you and'cause thatteam becomes so important.
Like, if you have people who arealways trying to find ways to
get you to stop doing whatyou're doing, then you shouldn't
be around them.
And I, and I get it becausethey're looking out for your
best interests.
But at the same time though,like maybe looking out for your
best interest is them saying,Hey, you know what, like next
time you have a show, I'll beyour birth person.

(45:08):
I'll help you promote the event,so on and so forth.
Like, things like that, thatencouragement helps you go so
much further.
But most people.
sometimes I feel like it's, it'slike a guilt thing for most
people where it's just like,well, I don't want to go to the
shows because I'll have to like,hear you sing this song.
It's just like, then just don'tshow up to the shows.
But don't discourage me fromdoing what I need to do.

Yeah.
Like I don't want to come andhear that song for the 10th
time.
but I'm, yeah, I totally getyou.
So, while you were talking aboutyour own release, I.
The 2016 and everything that yousaid was going on, you kept
using the word we, which I thinkis really cool because we were
talking about you in a, in agroup setting, politic live,

(45:53):
towards the encouragement foryou to step out on your own.
Like others have their own sortof like mc, creative like
direction and they, and theytake it.
And so finally you do, and thenyou describe it to me, always
using the word we, which becauseyou obviously just.
Stayed in the, I'm doing this asa collaboration mindset with

(46:17):
people.
I mean, that's been prettyobvious.
I mean, if people don't know,one of the unique
characteristics about ArloMaverick is you have live band
shows, which is still not, youknow, characteristic of a lot of
hip hop acts and especially, youknow, like the, they more rely
obviously on the mc, DJ sort oflive combination.

(46:37):
Right.
And format.
So, but you've chosen not to, soI was wondering if you could
just tell me for you,'causethat's just a unique version of
collaboration.
I'm just wondering why that hasbeen a big part of, of you and
how you've chosen to grow yourartistic career.

Yeah.
okay.
So the, we is actually a lotmore expansive than just the
band itself.
Um, when I think about ArloMaverick as a brand or as an
entity, there's so many peoplethat play a role in this thing
moving forward.
I just happen to be the face ofit, right?
So whether it's the people whohelp with production, whether
it's the people who help with,uh, video, um, in the by

(47:17):
Natalie, my publicist, JulianaCapone, like there's so many
people who are, are helping movethis thing forward on a daily
basis.
Then as it relates to the band,it's interesting because of the
fact that I.
It all comes back to Edmonton.
and those earlier years justbeing at Cato's place, um,
there's a gentleman by the nameof earl.com, he now goes by the

(47:37):
name of ott, just released a newproject.
Amazing.
he was part of a group calledCity of Champs.
And so in City of Champs theyhad, um, OTTs or earl.com touch
who was like a, a, a God to meMc when I was coming up.
'cause like, just the way herapped was just like so amazing.
And, uh, Angeline Ted, who's nowpart of CBC, uh, and they were

(48:00):
back by live band.
And at that point in time, theroots were beginning to change
the way people saw hip hop.
they played with

Mm.

band and because they played with a live band, it
gave a different energy and feelto the music they were making
and made for a more dynamicshow.
And so.
We had dabbled in playing with aband back in, uh, this would've
been as early as high school.
Yeah, high school.
some friends of mine, one of myfriends, Jeff Aba, uh, was just

(48:30):
like, you rap, but you shouldhave a band behind you.
And he was big into funk.
So he like introduced me toParliament, uh, Funkadelic and
everything like that.
So we played a couple Battle ofbands with them as a, as a band
behind us.
But it wasn't until seeing whatEarl was doing that I'm just
like, yeah, like, we can makethis thing happen.
And then shortly after City ofChance kind of, uh, dissolved,

(48:52):
but then they morphed into theHi phonics and, uh, Curtis
Santiago was a huge hip hop fan.
So for him, he had, he was asinger, but he also rap way
before Drake, and had a liveband behind him.
And so this, shows were like, sodynamic and like, so, uh,
engaging for an audience.

(49:13):
And so we see this and.
They, they kind of like come toan end around 2001 or so, right?
And Sun Tribe is the next actorwe see with a band, and they're
playing with super band at thistime.
And she's like, okay, cool.
But it was the ellipsis releaseparty that, that whole band

(49:35):
element was brought back to usand someone said, yo, why don't
you play with the band for therelease party?
We're like, okay, cool.
So from that point there, theway that those rehearsals felt,
the way that the, live showfelt, and the feedback we got
from that, I was like, I need tomake this just what I do.
And so from that point forward,I've worked hard at trying to

(49:56):
create a band.
And as you know, working with,with a, a band in itself, like
it's for an mc who is able tolike hire musicians.
I've tried to create like acollective where it's just like,
these are my players, butsometimes that's not possible.
But, As you probably know, whenyou're trying to get multiple
people to believe in something,it can come with a lot of like

(50:17):
headaches and a lot of stressesbecause there's always gonna be
those people that in a band whoare going above and beyond
because they see the vision,they see what's possible.
Then there's other people in theband who are just like, Hey,
like I'll, I'll do this for aslong as like, I feel like I feel
like doing it and I enjoy it.
You know?
Which it's not

Yeah, there's a big difference between the hired
gun and someone like to crossover into the belief thing.
Like you use that word like forsomeone to like believe in the
bigger picture where they wannabuy in, where they're not gonna
look for a paycheck.
Every single gig necessarily.
Um,'cause, because the, the cutsget really small if you try to

(50:56):
keep divvying'em out every time.
Um, yeah, that's a bigdifference to find somebody like
that for sure.

So the, the, the

Yeah.

now, and it's interesting because I've got an
Edmonton based team of musicianswho, um, believe in what I'm
doing and see themselves as allof MAs band.
But I've also started to developsomething in Calgary as well
too, with it, with some guyswho, believe in what I'm doing.
And so, that in itself makes ita we thing because, uh,

(51:23):
obviously again, I'm the faceof, of this.
I'm the one spearheading it.
I'm the one doing most of theheavy lifting, but I can't
dismiss the lifting that's doneby other people who don't have
to be doing this.
And sometimes they're doing itjust outta the love.
Like obviously

Mm-hmm.

something that allows you to compensate people
for their time, but sometimeswhat you're able to pay them is
not, doesn't reflect whatthey're worth, but you know that
they're worth more than that.
But the to stay along the pathand stay on the journey
hopefully gets this thing to apoint where it's just like now.
They're like, yeah.
Like it all made sense, youknow?

(52:01):
I think that that's,

Yeah.

that most people, give up on before they get
there.
and it's not to say that youcan't find ways to, create what
you're doing and, and enjoy whatyou're doing,

Yeah,

to be like this world famous person because
there's a lot of artists who areable to tour throughout the year
and they're living a modestlife, but they're able to do
what they love.

yeah.
I mean, collaboration from anoutside perspective has felt
like it's a primary ingredientin hip hop from the very
beginning compared to maybe someother genres like where it
happens, but not what I wouldcall, I.
Like a primary ingredient in thesame way.
is that, I guess I, I can't ask,is that accurate?
'cause you've pretty much justanswered that question by the

(52:42):
way.
You've sort of talked about yourown, history, but I guess it
sounds like you're saying likeEdmonton wasn't a hard place to
find collaborators for youeither,

Um,

which is pretty cool.

the thing that's so cool about Edmonton is that,
so the city, for those whoaren't familiar with it, is
essentially divided in intothree quadrants.
You know, so we have north side,west end, and south side, right?
There is, normally it talksabout the east, right?
Mm-hmm.
And you're from Edmonton.
You just know that, and it'snot, it's not sectioned off like

(53:15):
Calgary is where they have liketheir four quadrants and you
could literally like not leaveyour section and still like live
your day, day-to-day life,right?
With Edmonton,

Yeah.
Yeah.

kind of forced to interact with, with everyone.
And that that forcing is notnecessarily a bad thing because
I remember being in high schooland taking the train from.
We'd have to take the bus allthe way down to, university,
then take the train from thereall the way down to Clearview.
And once we're in Clearview,it's like now we're meeting a

(53:47):
whole new section of people anduh, this is all courtesy of uh,
my friend Fabian, who had formeda crew called The Juveniles.
And so with that, we're meetingnew people, we can collaborate.
Then we go over to the southside and all of a sudden we're
there a guy by the name DwayneRicketts was like this ultimate
like mc, freestyle battler guy,right?
So now we're connected with him.
And so the ability to connectwith people and meet new people

(54:10):
and collaborate was neveranything that we found
difficult.
Um, there was also, there's agentleman by the name of Stress
who had a studio called SmashBands, and with that he would
produce music by artists andthen feature them on his
website.
And this is.
Somewhat ahead of his time whenyou consider the fact that this
is like late nineties, early twothousands.

(54:30):
And so just by virtue of that,we were now able to hear,
artists from our city overreally amazing production.
the mix and the master is, is onpar for that time period.
And so now we're able to hearthem in the light that we need
to be able to hear them in, tobe like, Hey, let's collaborate
and do a song.
So if you look at it from liveup until now, of work that has

(54:56):
been released has had a minimumof like four features on there,
right?
And this could be someone who's

Mm-hmm.

could be someone who's rapping, someone who's
doing reggae on there.
that's just how, and evenmusicians as well too, coming
into play and differentproducers where I think that,
hip hop in itself is very muchabout forming a community to
create the music.
and Edmonton is no exceptionbecause even

Hmm.

project, blue Collar, like had artists from
Calgary on there, I had artistsfrom Edmonton on there.
I had artists from Atlanta onthere.
So the, obviously the internethas made it easier for us to be
able to create where you don'thave to

Yeah.

the same space at the same time.
But,

Yeah.

collaboration is, is, is vital because in my
opinion, I learned so much fromworking with other artists and
even being in the studio withthem.
And I always say that a city,when we're creating music, we
need to have the best minds inthe room, right?
And that spans over everyproject I've ever done.
whether it's politic,

Hmm.

to now trying to get the right people in the, in
the room.
Because if you have a, have anidea that is okay if you have
the right people in the room.
There's a gentleman by the nameof Uzi LA who has been a
collaborator with me for anumber of

Mm.

He could take an idea that I have and make it so
much better.
You know?

Great voice too.
Great voice.

voice.

Yeah.

voice.
And so when you, if I was of themindset of I have a monopoly on
ideas, I don't need to getanyone's feedback.
And sometimes it could be a,sometimes it could hinder you
'cause you're like, you want,you want to get everyone's
opinion.
But at the same time though,it's like, having the right
voices in the room, having theright ears in the room can

Yeah,

from an idea that was okay to being something
where it's just like, I thinkwe've got something here.
You know?

Yeah.
And I, I like the way youdescribed that, uh, Marlin,
because I think outside.
Observations sometimes,especially in more current days,
the use of the feature on tracksfelt like influencer culture
sometimes, right?
Of just, I'm putting this personon because they have some clout
right now.
Or they have, you know, somekind of currency with their name

(57:08):
and, um, that misinterpretationlike could possibly erase what
really is going on, which iswhat you just described, which
is people in, in geographicalareas, finding each other,
subcultures, finding each other,like putting each other on
things and sharing all of thatspace, not just for what you

(57:32):
described on how the rightperson can actually,
artistically.
Take what you're doing toanother new place, which is, I
think the most underlyingamazing part about collaboration
period, right?
As artists, is how that canhappen.
But in a bigger picture aboutcommunity, the way you're
talking about, how I think likehip hop's been doing that way

(57:54):
before everybody else of likegiving everybody a leg up by
participating and collaborating.
I did wanna ask you actually,because I've alluded to this a
number of times about myassumptions have been wrong, and
I've been a guy who's been likewaist deep in the music scene in
my community for a long time inEdmonton and then beyond over

(58:18):
the last 25 years.
So I would probably, you know,overzealously go a lot of places
and say like, I know.
Everything that's going on, or Iknow a lot of what's going on,
or I'm, I'm at least in touchand yet I'm not in, I'm clearly
not in touch.
So, so I wanna ask you a couplequestions just because what

(58:40):
we've alluded to, Edmontonactually was a place of
opportunity was, you know, um,was hip hop a strange thing to
pursue here?
Did you feel like you had to goto Toronto?
There's all those kinds oftypical questions, but I'm a
little bit curious.
I, I think it's important for meto ask because just the way I've

(59:00):
been talking about is a littlesymbolic of, like privilege and
the, the way that you don't knowprivilege, meaning.
That you don't know, you havethe blinders on when you are the
one who is assigned privilege.
There's just the very fact aboutit until you finally have
somebody show you.

(59:21):
Um, and I know like you releaseda song in, in 2021 called Black
Every Day, and you had a prettypotent line in it about your
privilege as a weapon.
And it's killing us, man, like Ithink is how it went.
Um, which is pretty incrediblenow.
I mean, anybody could be like,there's a lot of obvious like,

(59:44):
uh, fodder for material to writethat song that you wrote.
It's just in the world aroundus.
But I'm curious what it washappening particularly for you
to write that song, becauseyou've wrote a, a lot of songs
with a lot of subject matterthat one got really potent and I

(01:00:04):
it's powerful and I'm curious,you know, beyond just.
The things that are, don't touchus.
Exactly.
Personally.
What were the things that wereactually touching you to write
that song?

Arlo Maverick (01:00:15):
Well, if you look at the, again, just like politic
lives till now, like as itrelates to racism are something
I've never shied away from.
I try to approach'em in a waythat that allows for people to
understand the black experience,especially being black in
Edmonton.
you had mentioned the need toleave and go away, for the genre

(01:00:37):
that we create for, and that wassomething that, that had,
crossed my mind when I wasyounger.
What made me stay was the factthat I didn't want, didn't want
a generation coming up after meto have to go through what we
had to go through in the sensethat

Glen Erickson (01:00:50):
Mm-hmm.

no infrastructure, there was no,
industry that was built for hip

Yeah.

r and b or reggae, which are traditionally
black genres to be, to havesuccess in Edmonton.
And I'd seen artists have toleave the maximum definitive,
had to leave, quick trouble, hadto leave.
quick trouble.
Uh, when you talk with some ofthe guys from that, that group,
they said that there would be,banners around the city that
would say, no rap, no crap.
You know, and this is, this isEdmonton.
Which is so weird in the

Mm.

we have, are good and are bad.
Right.
and so as it relates to being anartist, there have been cha
challenges.
There have been hurdles, and I'maware of them.
I try not to make that the.
Be all, end all.
I try to look at it from thestandpoint of there are those
challenges, but how do we, howdo we change things?

(01:01:38):
How do we find, how do we changethings on our own, but also find
allies who can help us changethose things, right?
So as we fast forward to blackevery day, climate of what was
going on right during the blacksquare time period and
everything like that, and that'swhat essentially

Yeah.
Yeah.

in a sense that I've seen a lot of people who
were posting black squares.
I'm just like, but I know thisis not who you are.
I understand that there'ssomething that's going on right
now, and we were all moved byit.
The whole fact of like theGeorge Floyd situation, and many
people have said that hewould've died

Yeah.

so on and so forth, but we all saw someone
have.
A knee on their neck as they'relike crying out for help.
And the po, the police officerhad no care whatsoever.
And there the lack of humanityin that, I think moved a lot of
people to be like, okay, wellwhat can I do differently?
But the unfortunate thing isthat it shouldn't have to take

(01:02:31):
a, a scene like that.
And the theme was that becauseit happened during the pandemic
and we were all forced to likebe aware of what was going on, a
lot of people were just like,okay, well we need to make a
change.
But the, I have another line inthat song where I said, guilt is
an emotion that you can't trust.
'cause it comes and goes like aman's lust.
And so a situation like that,it's like we can't just be this

(01:02:54):
moment saying, okay, we're gonnado something.
But then two months later, allof a sudden we're just like,
well, I, I did my part becausethis is a lifelong that whether
it's black people or Arab peopleor whatever, people have to go
through.
This is a lifelong thing.
And it's not to say that whitepeople don't have.
Hardships or anything like that.
But there is, again, as yousaid, a privilege that comes

(01:03:16):
along with not having to facecertain things or being at least
aware that like, hey, like thisperson here, this police officer
when they're pulling me over is,'cause maybe I was driving bad
or maybe I was doing this, butin a situation which black
person, like it might be becauseI was driving bad.
It might be because I forgot tohit my signal light, but it

(01:03:38):
might be for something else.
And I don't want to judge everycop as being someone who is
racist.
But, but for me to say that itdoesn't cross my mind when a
police officer pulls me over andall of a sudden it's just like,
where can this possibly end up?
those are real things that gothrough your head, right?
And so,

That's the exact thing.
Right.
I'm never, ever gonna have to,that'll never cross my mind.

Yeah.

Right.
Like that's the differenceclearly.

I.

Like on that point.

percent.
I think that having theseconversations are always tough.
There's a, there's a song that Ihave on, um, soul Merchant
called Colorblind, and in thelast verse it talks about an
interracial relationship wherethe, the couple is now about to
have a child.
And the man is now like, we'venever had the conversation about

(01:04:27):
race, I've been afraid to bringthat conversation up because I
wasn't, I didn't want to offendyou and I didn't want you to, to
see it as just

Mm.

it off.
But in those situations, youhave to have those conversations
because we may see the worldfrom a colorblind lens, but
that, that doesn't mean that theworld is gonna see this
situation from a colorblindlens.
Right.
And so if we're not

Yeah.

at, at least, Having that dialogue, um,
because there will bedifferences.
There will be things that, thatpeople don't understand.
And that verse was actuallyinspired because I was dating
this, this, uh, Italian woman.
And when I, when I brought upthe whole thing, and we were
dating around the same time asTrayvon Martin.
And so I was talking about,

Mm.

talking to her about the whole Trayvon Martin
situation and saying that, well,if we ever had a child, like
these are realities that we'dhave to talk about with our
child.
she had rolled her eyes and Iwas just like, I was just like,
oh my gosh, you don't get it.
And after that, after that, likeshe saw like how much that
affected me, and she was justlike, wow.
Like I, I apologize.
And she did the work, as theysay, in the sense of trying to

(01:05:32):
understand and do reading and soon and so forth.
And trying to be more empatheticbecause it affect her.
But if she were to have a child,that'd be something that would
affect their child.
And like telling her child thatlike, racism doesn't exist or
anything like that, like.
all of a sudden you have a, achild who's both black and white
now looking at their mom saying,you don't get it.

(01:05:54):
You know?
And that's the worst thing inthe world that

Yeah.

happen if your parents don't understand what
you're going through, you know?

Yeah.
Uh, well first of all, Iappreciate you sharing all of
that.
and those are absolutely killerlyrics by the way.
It kills.
Like it just kills me how wellthose land so perfectly.
and, uh, you know, like, I guesswhy I had an interest in asking
about this, a because likeEdmonton just seems like a
unique place to talk about.

(01:06:24):
You know, trying to pursue hiphop to me in general.
And then I realized that part ofthat, like how much of that is
just my unfortunate lack ofperspective and, and insight and
vision to what is literallyaround me and in my backyard
happening.
Because, just because of thosethings.

(01:06:44):
And, but I grew up like souniquely, like I grew up feeling
like racism was an Americanthing, right?
Like I grew up, like the firsttime I had to be confronted with
like, some serious questions waslike on Fresh Prince of Bel Air
type thing, you know what Imean?
Like, like that's like, it was,but it was framed in Hollywood,

(01:07:05):
right?
So however deep it was orhowever, whatever version of
that is, however much impact wewere gonna be shown, like that
was a Hollywood, that was anAmerican

Yeah.

thing that didn't feel like it was our backyard, I
thought.
Where I grew up in WesternCanada, I'm like, I think we're
tolerant.
I think we're not racist.
Like I, I had never was broughtup, ever being told I had to
feel a certain way about anycolor.
Right.
So, but I also grew up nothaving a single black person in

(01:07:37):
the town I lived in for thefirst 12 years of my life.
So

You've never

it takes me until I'm in my f until I'm in my
forties to understand how deepthat is in blinding me from
seeing what reality was.
I had no idea.
So me just being able to becomfortable saying I'm not
racist was still a massiveblinder.
I felt.
I think one of the things I,it's, I can't call it a regret

(01:08:04):
because I don't have anyspecific thing to hang it on,
but realizing later in life thatthe younger version of me
probably missed opportunities tobe an ally.

Mm.

Right.
And be supportive because.
I was comfortable in myprivileged version of, of things
and I, I guess so.
And realizing that it exists inCanada, it exists in Western
Canada.
It exists big time in Edmonton.
so I guess one of the questionsI do have,'cause I would love to
know personally and I would wantother people to realize is like,

(01:08:38):
where, where does that kind ofgatekeeping still exist in the
music industry?

Wow.
I, that's a loaded questionbecause there's,

You don't have to name names.
I'm not trying to put yourcareer at risk.
I swear

and I, I don't think

I

I think you are, but it is, it's one of those
things where the questionbecomes, where do I start?
Right.

Mm.
Okay.

many years ago, wow, where do I start?
Consider this, there'sopportunities that have helped
develop, artists, from the, fromfolk to rock to pop.
And typically the people who arefronting these genres are not
black people in this city or inthis province.

(01:09:24):
And so the level of support thatis, uh, and opportunities that
are provided to those artists,are ones in which, you know,
that there's gatekeeping hagatekeeping happening.
Right.
the unfortunate thing is thatthere's a, a lack of
infrastructure that allows for,um, black artists to be able to
have the, the accolades or theaccomplishments or, or the

(01:09:48):
success that we see our whitecounterparts have.
Right.
And so for many years, the, ithas been the topic of discussion
and some organizations have,have done.
Things to, to help improve that.
Right?
I know Alberta Music, I workclosely with them, um, in order
to like help, here's the thing,if you are an artist who is in

(01:10:10):
the rock genre, there's a goodchance that you will have
access.
If you have talent and someone'sable to notice that there's
going to be someone who is amanager who's gonna come along,
who's gonna be like, okay, let'stake you from here to where you
need to be.
Right?
And that person there is gonnahave a whole ecosystem that's
surrounding them, allows them totake your career to where you

(01:10:32):
need to be, right?
they're gonna have access togrant funding, they're gonna
have access to information thatallows them to, uh, navigate
your career, so on and so forth,right?
is based off of systems thathave been in place that have
allowed for, these things toexist, right?
And so I.
There's again, just thatinfrastructure that's already in

(01:10:52):
place as it relates to someonewho's creating black music,
infrastructure is not in place.
Because if, my publicist rightnow is Juliana Capone led of the
publicity, right?
I, she is a Jewish woman.
She is amazing, right?
she has helped me grow thisthing here and I consider it to

(01:11:12):
be part of my team, right?
However, other hip hop artistsreggae artists or r and b
artists, she's one person,right?
How many of them are going tohave the access or the ability
to get someone on their teamthat's gonna be able to elevate

Mm-hmm.

where they're at, right?
Or even have a booking agent.
You look at most of the, thebooking agents across Canada,
like they're becoming morediverse.
But at the same time though,they've also not tried to look
for, Hip hop, r and b or reggaeor black artists per se.
Right?
And part of that comes from thefact that there is no or
ecosystem for them to actuallybe able to help that artist

(01:11:51):
develop their career.
And that comes from a systemthat has long said, we're gonna
get behind rock artists.
We're gonna get behind popartists, we're gonna get behind
folk artists.
We're gonna get behind countryartists.
Like there's so much fundingthat's put in the country.
And I know I'm gonna rufflefeather when I say this, but,
there was an initiative a fewyears ago that was based around
helping develop, uh, basedartist that all of a sudden

(01:12:15):
decided they were just going togo to country music.
Right.
And with that, a lot of artists,not just black artists, but a
lot of artists, period, werejust like, wow, like how much
more funding do we need to putinto country music?
And that's why country musicthrives here in this country and
in this province, you

Well, Marlon, let me say, because what I was
thinking just before you saidthat, which it usually still
always comes down to the excuseand the reality, and I don't
know where that line is blurredof where the dollars come from.
Right.
And that's what I always heardmy whole life, right?
So it's like, why does someonekeep building or why does

(01:12:51):
someone keep pouring into andpumping into the rock or the
folk or the country, like, uh.
Like, yeah.
Like they do it because they'relike, well, we're pretty sure

gonna win.

we can create success and, and there's gonna
be dollars.
Yeah.
We're gonna win on the otherside.
And they're not willing to takea chance.
Or they're like, and so the, thegatekeepers are the ones who
aren't willing to take thechances.
And you, you just identified thespecific one, which I literally
led the charge on, which was theProject Wild, the Peak
Performance Project, I'massuming you're probably

(01:13:25):
referencing, which again, wentback to the fact that this was a
radio funded initiative because,uh, radio stations who needed,
to start a new station inCanada, you had to make a seven
year commitment of what's calledCDC funding.
Canadian content, CCD, sorry,Canadian Content Development.
And it was a.

(01:13:47):
And what I learned through it ishow much radio stations resented
having to spend 700 grand a yearfor seven years.

On

Um, you know, on local, on local content
development in where they are asa part of the agreement to
giving them a license in a city.
and so in Vancouver, theydeveloped that.
They turned it into a contest tosatisfy the radio people.
Uh, so they gave away all thosebig dollars, which was awesome
for the artists who won it.

(01:14:15):
And then we tried to the, sorry.
We, the, the, provincialAssociation tried to turn it
into a, also a developmentprogram.
So you're right, all thisopportunity.
So it comes to Alberta and itwas all a radio and dollars
choice.
Peak performance project wasbased on the peak, which was,
AAA format.

(01:14:36):
It was called out of, uh, thatthey had been successful in
Vancouver.
They tried it in Calgary.
They didn't get through 18months, I think before they did
what radio always does when theyare all of a sudden at the
bottom of the rankings and notmaking advertising dollars.
And they flipped a format almostovernight to country, which in

(01:14:57):
turn flipped our developmentprogram to country.
And you're totally right becauseI mean, uh, he's not a black
artist, but Transit from Calgarywho is a rapper and, actually
finished in the top three andearned the money in the second
year when it was Peakperformance project.
and he was an outlier to, inthat genre, even to get in.

(01:15:19):
so you're absolutely right andit's money driven, right?
The gatekeeping seems to stillcome down to money and whether
people are willing to betoutside of what they're used to.

here's the thing though.
last 2023, in Kelowna, therewas, a panel that was held in
regards to breaking out racialbarriers, which is the
organization that, works withdifferent, provincial music
industry associations acrossCanada to help them with,
anti-black racism, so on and soforth.
Right.
now a conversation was had aboutthe Rascals because the rascals

(01:15:55):
in the late nineties and theearly two thousands was
producing numbers that we hadnever seen before coming outta
Western Canada and even outtaCanada as well too.
And they were a hip hop act thatwas, uh, on BMG.
They're, they're managed by SaulGuy and they're doing amazing
things.
Touring, like just really makingsome headway.
And you would assume thatcompanies would be like, okay,

(01:16:18):
there's a market for this.
Let's start investing more moneyinto this.
But they don't fast forward toDrake.
Drake comes along andcompletely, uh, becomes this
mega star is a hip hop artistand is from Toronto, we still
have yet to see.
labels, or even just Canada as awhole, say, okay, let's find

(01:16:40):
ways to develop more of thistalent within hip hop.
Then you look at, we've hadJulie Black, we've had Deborah
Cox, we've had countless artistsof different genres that, again,
would be considered to be blackgenres, and yet there's no
funding put into it.
And if we want to look atEdmonton Cadence Weapon, 2005.
Kfab

Yeah.

a international success, yet there was no

Yeah.

put into developing, Canadian content
within the city.
Here you fast forward to day.
We have Arden, who is a hip hopmc, originally from Beaumont,
but now living in Edmonton, he'ssigned to a label underneath
TDE, which is Kendrick Lamar'sformer label.
This is a big deal.
Yet there's been no effort toactually say, Hey, let's put

(01:17:26):
more resources here, becausethere's something happening
forever Friday.
Uh, that was huge doing trackswith artists who are.
Are assigned to big labels inthe us.
He was doing this back in 2000and uh, 2022, and yet we don't
see more funding being allocatedor more resources being put into
this.

(01:17:46):
And so the, I hear what you'resaying in the sense of like them
saying, well, we have to investin what's gonna be successful,
but there's been countless prea,Turner, Ruth, b Noella, Charles,
uh,

Yeah.
Yeah.

like the list goes on of artists who have
actually done great things.
And yet, it was here, here's,here's one thing that's that's
interesting is that you couldhave a white artist who could
have more success doing blackmusic in Canada than a black
artist will ever have outside ofDrake, outside of the weekend,

(01:18:21):
so on and so forth.
But see this happen.
Especially in Western Canadaover and over again, where if
it's a black artist, not

Hmm.

the time or effort or resources put into
developing them.
And even if we wanna talk aboutCCB funding, back when you and I
were back on Albert of music onthe board there, that's what I
realized and found out that thebalance had money that was
earmarked for developing, hip

Yeah.
Local talent, they had to, yeah.

of that was communicated to the whole
community.
So here we are.
Most artists weren't applying

Yeah.

because they weren't aware of that.
And so that is another form ofgatekeeping when you hire people
to be in these positions thatare supposed to develop the
talent.
But those people don't careabout developing the talent.
And then people just assume thatthere's nothing going on here.
But we often put people whodon't care about the culture of
the music or the, the, the, thelifespan of the music.

(01:19:17):
In order in places that, thatwill then dictate the lifespan
of the music.

Yeah.

So like

So like, that's a really, that's a bunch of really
good points.
I, just to be clear, I, in caseit came across wrong, I wasn't
defending, I don't want todefend that, that flip.
No, no.
I know, I know.
I just, I'm, I'm choosing to beclear.

I

I, I know, you know me.
I'm choosing to be clear thatthat flip to that country thing
was like a radio station doingwhat a radio station always
does, that they didn't, theydidn't care about the
development.
I.
Program, they cared aboutflipping their thing, and if we
were gonna continue thedevelopment program, you got, we

(01:20:00):
had no choice.
Like, it's like you're handhandcuffed, which is one whole
thing in the industry that youcould, like rabbit hole on and
talk about.
But the way, but your responseby the way, was fantastic and
eye-opening for me because Ihaven't thought long enough
about the fact that there havebeen incredible groundbreaking

(01:20:22):
things that have happened in ourcountry for black music that
have not seen the ripple effectto support and to funding and to
the removing of gatekeepers andto the actual investment, across
the board That you're right,that you would see if it was a
different kind of artist right.
Doing some of these things.

(01:20:44):
And there's just a history to,to obviously prove it.
And I just hadn't thought aboutit.
So, And my door just flew openlike a ghost.
Um, that was weird.
So, know, I appreciate yougiving me that insight.
I told you at the beginning, Idon't expect you to have to step
up and be the spokesperson, uh,in this way.

(01:21:06):
I don't think that's a fairexpectation.
I'm always sensitive to askingthat question, but I appreciate
it because like I said, you'vebeen in this for over 20 years,
not just as I'm trying to makeit as an artist or get my music
out there, but you've, as you'veclearly shown, invested in the
community around you andbuilding it and had the

(01:21:27):
opportunity to see not just yourown roadblocks that you've had
to encounter, um, but you know,the heartbreak of seeing people
around you who perhaps deserve abetter shot or misunderstood or
not given opportunities that.
It should be given or appear tobe given.
And you know, and as quickly asyou're telling me all that

(01:21:49):
stuff, Marlon is, as quickly asmy brain is doing the math and
saying, you're right.
I can't think of how manyinitiatives I know have popped
up.
You know, very specifically inthe last 15 years.
Like, I, like you, youmentioned, I'm sitting on the
board, like I remember being onthe board with you.
It is maybe 2008, 2009.

(01:22:11):
We take this initiative inAlberta because maybe it was
2007 even.
'cause people were stillthinking these download cards
was like the way to promote yourmusic.
If you remember, like you woulddigitally put your MP threes on
a a card that then, I can't evenremember how that would get read
onto your computer or somethingto listen.
Phones weren't the thing evenyet to listen to all your music.

(01:22:33):
So we were going to make acompilation of Alberta artists,
like I think we had made CDsbefore now we were gonna make
these download cards to promoteAlberta artists.
You know, as a, a provincialassociation, and I remember
Dragonfly Empire from Calgarywas like really busting out at
the time, and it was important.

(01:22:54):
We wanted to get them on there.
And, and here's what I canremember about that.
And, and sincerely, I probablyshould also frame it this way.
Sincerely, I look back at thatas one of my first experiences
to having my blinders gettingtaken off.
And maybe that's why I hold youin such high esteem.
'cause I, I tie that all back toyou, Marlon, like your, your

(01:23:17):
gentle, like this sounds almostvery Canadian, right?
Your humble tenacity in, inbeing a presence and a voice and
saying the right thing.
I think from that point on in mylife, I always was empathetic.
The fact that we need to haveall the right people around a
table.
When we make decisions, right?

(01:23:39):
That it wasn't just, that waslong before the diversity
inclusion rhetoric, became sortof commonplace.
Like that was long before that.
But, you know, you were, youwere an influence on that at the
time of how we promote andinclude that.
And I'm a little disappointedand I'm probably gonna have to

(01:23:59):
go back and do a lot of Googlingnow to, to look more into just
how little has happened despite,you know, people making great
waves.
And, and this kind of just goesback to me saying that it felt
way too easy when I thoughtabout it to realize that, you
know, I can think that we'redoing okay and that it's not a
problem as much here as in otherplaces in the world.

(01:24:21):
and then I hear things like thatand I'm like, yeah, that's not
true.
I gotta stop.
I gotta stop believing what.
You know what I think I'm seeingand start listening.
So I appreciate you putting allthat out there and sort of
laying down that sort of, yeah,laying all that down.
It's like this, it's reallygood.

no,

Appreciate you.

man.
Thank you.
Um, I think that in situationslike that you do have people who
are trying to become moreinvolved in what's going on and
like, um, Alberta Music, um, mayhave been like their first like
black board member, right?
And so from that point on,they've had other people who are
a part of it.
Right now, Noella, Charles andand Rochelle are part of the,

(01:25:02):
the board.
So

Uh.

to like be that perspective, especially with
them being black women becausethat in itself, that whole inter
intersectionality right theredoes present, uh, challenges as
well too.
But we as diverse communitieshave to be included, in order
for, and we have to like.

(01:25:24):
Play a role in and take the,take the step to be included.
But at the same time though,like we can't just be token
people.
And so when I was on the boardfor Alberta Music, it wasn't a
matter of being just, Hey, he'sa token black guy.
Um, it was a matter of me likefinding ways to, fight for, uh,
hop r and b reggae, you know,because, if I'm in the room and
I'm just like, there just to bea body, then there's no point in

(01:25:47):
me being there, right?
And so,

Mm-hmm.

yeah, the, whether it's that or other
initiatives,'cause even withthe, the whole CCD funding, with
the bounce like that, thatdoesn't happen when you have a
black person or a person ofcolor involved in the decision
making who then says, oh,

Yeah.

much

Yeah.

for artists from Alberta with Factor.
And I know that these guys aremaking music and need to get
that out there.
That's not gonna happen.
But when you have someone,whether they're a white person
or a person of color who doesn'tcare about artist development,
because if you don't make goodmusic, people will tell you to
go back to the drawing board.
And sometimes you don't have the

Mm-hmm.

to make the music that is able to compete.
But then when the same radiostation is denying you from
getting radio play is also thegatekeeper for the resources
that you need for your music toactually become better.
Then that's the problem.
Because if

Mm-hmm.

concerned about developing a scene or developing
the artist from the scene, thenthey shouldn't be the ones
responsible for communicatingthat message.
And that's, that's the thingthat's probably the most
disturbed thing is that that issimply communicating, to the
people who you know, are, keypeople within that community
being, or even just going toAlberta music and saying, Hey

(01:27:12):
guys, like.
We've got the CCD funding, we'renot connected with the
community.
can you help get this messageout to artists from the
community who would actuallyfall under these guidelines so
that they could apply for thefunding?
The Bounce didn't do that.
The person who was in chargedidn't do that.
And so I remember, I think itwas year six and it was a seven

(01:27:34):
year, uh, promise, and by yearsix, no hip hop artists in the
city had applied because at thatpoint in time, if you were a hip
hop artist applying or reggaeartists or RB artists from
Alberta applying for Factor,likely you weren't gonna get
approved because either gonna goto Toronto or Vancouver.
But it was earmarked for us andnot, that was not communicated

(01:27:56):
to us.
And that was a huge travesty.
And, and to me that is areflection of the system that's
in place that is not doing whatit needs to'cause reverse the
rules.
Okay.
And you have money that'searmarked for country music
artists in Alberta.
That is going to be communicatedto managers, artists, radio, so
on and so forth, because theywant to see that

Oh, they all know it.
They all know it.
For sure.
I know them all.
They all, they're all well awarewhere all of that is coming.
You're right.
Yep.

to, to

Yep.

r and b or reggae, it's just like, well, if
they find out, then they findout and it's up to them.
And, and to me, that's, that'snot the right attitude to have
because it, it's no differentthan elections.
When people want your votes,they'll show up to your, to your
churches, they'll show up toyour barbershops, they'll show
up to your, to everythingpossible, your school,

door.

and they will communicate with you, Hey, we
need

Yeah.

But when you need something from them or if
they're supposed to communicatesomething to you that once they
have your votes and have theirposition, all of a sudden they
see it as well.
If they really wanted it, theywould've found out about it.
It's just like, no, that's,let's not do that.

Yeah.
Well, let's, let's be reallyclear about the landscape.
'cause I, I, I wanna be reallyclear about it and I think
everyone listening should beclear about it.
There's one entire conversationwe could have about, with
something that's wrong in theindustry between a, a place like
radio is still has a very largepart to play in artists and

(01:29:21):
they've, it feels like almostall but completely disassociated
themself from the local scenebeing a part of local exposure
development, anything.
Right?
Because as I was told with thecountry, radio and state and
Calgary, after it flipped withina year, the agreement where they
would play those top 12 artistsin the program on the air, they

(01:29:45):
stopped playing'em on the airbecause they didn't want to risk
someone changing the station,overhearing an unknown.
Calgary country artists evenonce during six to six or even
six to 11, I think the primetimereporting hours.
So,

That's crazy.

but, but here's, here's the fact.
Like, so that's one wholeproblem we could just talk about
that has never been dealt with.
And I know people at the verytop of these radio stations, uh,
like the radio companies whodon't love, they have to
continue to fund factor likelong after, apart from C, c, D,
they have to, they pour moneyinto factor and stuff, and they

(01:30:19):
feel like they don't even knowwhat that money's doing.
They have no say in it and theydon't like it.
Now, based on all the thingswe've been talking about, I
don't know that I want their sayin it.
But the other part of thelandscape I wanna say, and it's
sort of what you were alludingto is like in Edmonton and other
places may have done this likefor a while.

(01:30:40):
Some of the stations had thisprogram, remember it's called
the 10 K 20,

yes,

and it was like they were gonna get 2020 artists
were gonna like get 10.
Yeah.
Roco 10 K towards recording arecord for like 20 different
artists that supposedly fit insome format, of course, that
they would play on theirstations.
And, and like you said, projectWild was a country, it flipped
into a country base, but beforethat it was AAA format.
That's like an adultcontemporary like, uh,

(01:31:05):
alternative, uh, adultalternative kind of station
format.
So someone could easily try todraw this line right between,
well of course they're in theirown best interest and survival,
which is all of this.
It's not the CBC, right?
It's not public money.
It's like private money.
It's like we have to win, wehave to succeed.

(01:31:27):
These grants, if they're gonnasupport our local community,
also have to reflect us.
So the first argument you wouldthink is like the bounce, like
how many stations at a certaintime were playing.
Like black music playing hip hopor anything.
But let's take a look at thatnow.
Like, like black music isdriving so many stations, right?

(01:31:49):
Like, and so many formats andthat that hasn't really changed,
like take apart the side thatalmost no stations wanna get
involved in local development.
But the, it's such a bullshitargument because yeah, they're
not like the, like the music'sthere.

(01:32:11):
Like they, you know, they shouldbe developing and funding the
thing that's giving themsuccess, I guess is what I'm
trying to say.
And they're not.

if I were to look at, the success of Drake the
Weekend Lanes, just to look atthose three artists there,
right?
I would try to repeat that onmultiple locations, and if three
of those people came from onecountry, I'd be trying to scour
to find more of those artists.

(01:32:42):
When I look at something like

Yeah.

b,

Yeah.

okay, where are the artists from that, like 2008
REIA Turner had, if I'm notmistaken, the most played song
in either Canada or NorthAmerica with, don't Call Me
Baby.
why would you, as a industry,whether you wanna look at it
from the, uh, radio stations orthe labels, why would you not be

(01:33:08):
trying to do more of thesecontests?
To try to find more artists likeTurner who half black, half
white?
Ends up competing in this, inthe Bounce Showdown, ends up
creating Bounce would be, whichbecame a huge hit.
And then she had multiple hitsafter gets signed to a record

(01:33:28):
label.
Like to me, it should have beena no brainer in the sense of
like, let's find more talent.
But when it happens within the

Yeah.

or the country genre, the labels, the radio
stations, they go to find thenext, the next one when it
happens

Wait, Seattle, Seattle in the nineties, right?
Like the whole thing.
And then like, look at, at, uh,indie Rock and Canada outta
Montreal, uh, arcade Fire and awhole bunch of the bands and
Wolf Parade and stuff coming outin the two thousands.
Like, you're right.
People were like, oh, like allof a sudden anybody who was
playing the same

So

genre out of those geographies, you're right.
Like it totally happened.
Yeah.
Yeah.
okay.
Well that's, uh, I appreciatethat.
I know that that's, uh.
Obviously, probably close toyour heart also requires a
little bit of vulnerability.
Uh, I appreciate your trust intalking to me about that,

(01:34:23):
knowing that I'm also gonnabroadcast this obviously to a
lot of people.
this is what I've always reallyappreciated, uh, about you,
Marlon, like, so I love the workthat you do.
I already alluded to incommunity building, either
whether it's you've, like, yousort of hinted towards like
you've gotten into filmmakingand even documentary and use

(01:34:44):
that as a, a platform and a and,and an artistic expression to
draw proof telling out in yourown way and those things, which
is amazing.
you've been like, uh, a grantwriter who's probably pushing
close to a million dollars of,of people who you've written
grants and helped, uh, grantwriting to access funding over

(01:35:05):
this career.
Like that's an incrediblenumber.
incredible success.
In building support, like anartist who I think, uh, I've
been watching for like fouryears out of Edmonton Moraine,
who is so, so good.
And just seeing, and justknowing the work that you've,
like, the support that you'vegiven a person like that.

(01:35:27):
And then see their, careertakeoff, just all these great
examples.
I, I think that probably if Idid this in every major city in
Canada, we'd probably find thecommunity builders.
And I just really appreciate, Ithink that I know you
personally, I know Edmonton'sCommunity Builder.

(01:35:47):
I didn't say at the start, I'mwearing your hat.
Um, um, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'mrepping the only way I seem to
be able to know how on thisthing is wearing your hat, but,
uh, I remember even when I gotit, it was important to me.
I.
Anyhow, uh, we've gone way overthe time that, uh, I had
expected to, but I just wannasay how much I appreciate you

(01:36:09):
and all the work you've done,because obviously anybody who's
been listening to my podcast, itjust can't help but be very
Western Canadian, uh, themed andperspective wise and
particularly, I've decided tospend some time with people who
I think are in my own backyard,who are incredible career
artists.

(01:36:29):
and you're one of those guys.
So I appreciate the time thatyou've taken to kind of talk
about your career and some ofthese different, uh, particular
aspects of it.

No, thank you.
Thank you.
we definitely went way over, butat the same time though, it's a
good conversation and Iappreciate you, uh, touching on
subjects that might make,whether it's your audience
uncomfortable or just peoplehearing it uncomfortable.
But I think that we need to havethese conversations and I think
that there are, we're at a timeperiod where, we can't just say

(01:36:57):
things.
We have to actually, do thingsto create change.
And that's for people of color,that's for, for women, that's
for just this whole musicindustry.
Because at the end of the day,like the best thing we can do is
create those opportunities for,allow us for.
That allow us to have the bestmusic out there and having
gatekeepers, having roadblocks,having people not have access to

(01:37:20):
information or opportunities,doesn't do us anything good in
the long run.
So, yeah.

yeah, yeah.
It would be really easy for meto have a podcast full of guys
that look exactly like me, likeI know a lot of them, but, um,
it, it's not, yeah, it, itreally matters to me, uh, to not
be.
That person or that podcast.
so, you know, but the moreimportant and next thing is like

(01:37:49):
to have to actually get to havethis conversation.
So, yeah.
Sincerely, again, I appreciateit and, uh, I'm looking forward
to new music.
Uh, I'm glad we started theretalking about you in the studio
and the next album.
and just the fact that you'restill doing it is so good.
Like, a lot of people would say,I'm too old for this shit.
And you're,

I got

you aate Well, I was, I was gonna say, you look
the same as, again, maybe thisis again, I'm, I'm old enough
that I, uh.
I don't know, aren't seeingthings straight, but you look
the same to me as you did 15years ago.
So good on you.
Anyhow, but I love the fact thatyou're still, I still love the

(01:38:30):
fact that you're creating yourart and pursuing it, and you've
found all these different waysto keep a career in music, like,
like you have.
And, thanks for everythingyou're doing, bud.

thank you.
Thank you.

Yeah.

for this podcast.
Thanks for

Okay.
What are you talking about?
You're nervous.
What do you mean?

alexi (01:38:53):
I'm just playing with you.

Oh, okay.
What

alexi (01:38:55):
Mom's trying to yell at you.

or some what

alexi (01:38:58):
we'll

earth.

alexi (01:38:59):
out.
Let me go tell mom.

Oh, now, now I really have to edit it out.
Uh, okay.
So.
rolling it back.
Uh, we're talking, um, withanother local hero to me, a guy
named Arlo Maverick.
the conversation went a littlebit longer.
We got into some things which Ihad asked him in advance if it
was okay if I asked questionsabout, you know, where I.

(01:39:30):
Diversity things are still notcool and evidently still out of,
uh, alignment despite people'sperceptions even like mine that
Oh yeah, I think things arebetter.

alexi (01:39:40):
I

And

alexi (01:39:41):
was,

just,

alexi (01:39:42):
no, that's my comment too

I

alexi (01:39:44):
like that I thought things were better.
Um, when you kind of were sayingthat, and now I'm gonna
interject, but I was gonna say,

no do it.

alexi (01:39:50):
It was really interesting to me that it was basically like
the con, the conversation in mymind, he's able, he's so
thoughtful.
He was able to identify like

Mm-hmm.

alexi (01:39:58):
the music scene in Canada is like evolving and I think
that's what most people in orout of the music scene like can
identify like,

Mm-hmm.

alexi (01:40:07):
it's like it's evolving.
And then, I think it's reallyinteresting that he's able to
identify within that like wherethe steps back

Mm-hmm.

alexi (01:40:14):
being taken.
And so like when you guys weretalking about like, country
music being kind of taken moreseriously and taken for, um,
growth and like growth ofartists and growth of like a
music scene.
yeah, I was just like

Yeah.

alexi (01:40:27):
with.
His like thoughtfulness as aperson and like, I'm sure it
comes from his experiences, butjust still like to be able

Yeah.

alexi (01:40:35):
everyone probably around him to be like, look at this
great program.
Look at this.
Get up.
Like it's evolving the scene inCanada, it's like giving
opportunities and for him to beable to like identify and like
call out the fact that it'slike, it can be something that's
like evolving while also being astep back for a different
community is just like.

Yeah.

alexi (01:40:53):
very like profound ability.

Yeah, I agree.
Which is why I felt prettyconfident asking him to speak to
it, you know?
Um, the last thing I was gonnatalk to you about was I feel
like I'm in a, I, I don't knowhow this happens.
I feel like I'm in a dry spellwith new music again, it's like
the second, third time alreadyin 2025.
Like, I've had these like, oh,this new, I don't know.

(01:41:16):
Is there anything new?
I'm, is there something I'mmissing?
Am I just too busy and notpaying attention?

alexi (01:41:21):
I don't know.
I've been

Is it just a slow year?

alexi (01:41:24):
maybe it's a slow year.
I've been in

I.

alexi (01:41:26):
weird.
Like, I don't even know how Idescribe the genre I'm in right
now because when I get intofinals, I need to listen to
things that are

Your genre has sounded like Zach Bryan

alexi (01:41:36):
when I cook

all the time after school.
When I come back after work,

alexi (01:41:40):
Okay, okay.
But that's'cause there has beensome new artists emerging in the
kind of country pop countryscene, but,

do they all sound like Zach Bryan?
And that's how I can't tell thedifference.

alexi (01:41:50):
But

Oh, okay.

alexi (01:41:52):
aside from that,

the, who's the guy you?
Who did you play 18 times in arow?

alexi (01:41:55):
oh, uh, Evan Honer.

Evan Hoener.
Okay.

alexi (01:41:58):
Because he has, um, that was the one that take me as I
come.
And then also Bo Alec, those twosound very similar.

Well, you've talked about, yeah, you're
right.
I thought the first time youplayed, I.
the Evan dude that it was the bodude, so I, that, that says all
that right there.

alexi (01:42:14):
know what I've gotten into, and it stemmed from
finals, this playlist I made wastrying to like,

You have to say it.
We're not a visual podcast yet.

alexi (01:42:23):
playlist 63, because I couldn't come up with a title.

Oh, you made your own.
I get it.
Sorry, I thought you meant thisplaylist.
Like, okay.

alexi (01:42:29):
the same.
Like if you listened to it,start to finish the whole four
hours, whatever it is, you'd belike, yeah, this is like
curated.
Well, like these are all thesame, like same energy,
whatever.
But I can't place my finger likethe

I love the confidence.
That's great.

alexi (01:42:45):
soul jazz, like neo soul something.

What,

alexi (01:42:50):
And it's like.

you're not even 20, I don't think you get to use
the word neo in front ofanything yet.
I.

alexi (01:42:56):
but like what it's giving and I don't know, it's like
super

Okay.

alexi (01:43:01):
listening to, but it's something I don't wanna put you
on because I know I would playit for you and you'd or

What do you mean I scoff?
I've never scoffed at anythingyou've done yet.
Except, except that when youstart listening to jazz that
your boyfriend influenced youon.
That's the only time I scoff.
I know.
Uh, that's fair.
That's fair.
But since I, I thought since Idon't have any new music to push
on people myself,

alexi (01:43:26):
to

I should do.

alexi (01:43:27):
release?

What?

alexi (01:43:29):
Like do you have the release.

No, it's so, I know, but that seems so like
overly curated.
It's like listening to a, like amainstream radio station to me
of them just, here's the latestsingle put out by somebody's big
label who's paying for all thepromotion.

alexi (01:43:46):
what then?

You know how, I don't know why.

alexi (01:43:49):
Maybe

I'm just like,

alexi (01:43:50):
that.
'cause mine's like.

well, that's me.
I'm a little, that's the oldjaded punky in me coming out
saying I don't like anything.
The man tries to tell me I haveto listen to, but I should, I
should be better than that.
I, um, well, I thought thatsince yours has what?

alexi (01:44:06):
like it's been like popping up some nice songs for
me lately that I've been able todeep dive into some new bands.

Okay, I'll try to not like spoil that youthful
enthusiasm.
I thought since I didn't haveanything that I would take the
opportunity to at least remindpeople we're going into.
We're in April here, we'reheading into May.
Uh, when this comes out.
Um, that, past artists like theone you just mentioned, Robin
Cizik has, uh, released anothersingle that people could go and

(01:44:36):
check out if they enjoyed herconversation and what she does.
And going all the way back tothe og, uh, Dan Mangan has been
releasing a couple of singlescoming out towards his, the full
length album in the fall, and hewill, he will be on tour around
Canada and I know he hits us.
In September, I think at somepoint, yeah.

(01:44:57):
So people can pay attention andthey should keep an eye out for
that if they haven't already.
So a couple, couple weeks in arow of my backyard, hometown
heroes, which has been prettycool.
So, uh, that's it.
That's all for tonight.

alexi (01:45:10):
Okay.

Okay.
Bye.
Thank you.
Love you.

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