ep17 Boy Golden is not the boy

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Glen (00:00):
It seems to me now that breaking a podcast into seasons,
air, quote, seasons, is abouttaking forced breaks, as in you
need a break, you are runningoutta steam.
You have no one booked.
That was meant to be a littlefunny, so I won't qualify how
true it is for me, but I shouldalso be transparent about how
important the process has beenfor me to be patient, to trust

(00:24):
the process.
So finding myself at the startof a second season is
satisfying.
I don't mind saying, and whatother way to start than with an
episode I was hoping to haveduring the first season, but
timing would bring this guest tous.
Now, serendipity, You know whatelse is serendipitous?
A series of events occurring ordiscovered by chance in a happy

(00:47):
or beneficial way.
That's the Google definition atleast.
But how about this example?
A guy, let's say me, hears thesong on the radio and feels
that's too indie for regular altrock radio.
I like it.
But then it occurs to him, methat there are a lot of songs I
get interested in because theysound like they don't quite

(01:10):
belong.
Not in a bad way, but in a verycool way.
Alongside the battalion of FooFighters and mother, mother
songs in regular rotation.
And then it really occurs tohim, me that the song doesn't
belong because it has hints ofsomething that I don't think on
its own alt rock radio wouldever play regular rock radio for

(01:32):
that matter.
And so he, I goes on a.
Quest to hear more than justthis one song and confirms that
the discography supportssomething else.
Some other substance in the songcatalog and the alt rock radio
single is actually the anomaly,but.
Then he, I can't seem to stopthere because there is still

(01:57):
something not quite aligned.
And this guy me is struck by thecollection of songs lined up
against themselves, not otherradio rotation regulars and how
these songs require a newinvestigation into what's being
heard.
So a kind of detective work ofthe subconscious is this guy me.

(02:17):
Ponders and listens and pondersabout how the song Maker has so
cleverly created a sound thatavoids the stigma of being an
era copycat, a throwback,avoiding specificity, and
instead wearing the woven piecelike a vintage Cody actually
inherited from his grandpa notpurchased from a Goodwill.

(02:39):
So.
Serendipity happens when theevents of this discovery lead
our guy, me, to realize I wasn'tsearching for a specific
influence to satisfy him, me,not a Bob Dylan or a Lou Reed,
but someone who could neverpossibly have been an influence

(03:02):
yet carries all the correctspecifics, and then to go look
up the albums, the songs, andexperience exactly.
What I've experienced from thiscurrent artist and album and
find total serendipity, eventhough I've probably lost you.
So let me pull this backtogether.

(03:22):
This is extreme beating aroundthe bush, and I'm sorry it's
either the very wrong or veryright way to start a new season,
but I listened to Boy Goldenrepeatedly until I
serendipitously connected him toLarry Norman.
Larry Norman was one of the truerebels of Christian rock, the OG

(03:44):
of Christian Rock, the only onemaybe until striper in the
nineties, who stood shoulder toshoulder with his peers.
A perfect blend of those pi withseventies blues influence,
guitar and piano driven anthemsand ballads.
Rolling lyrical satires onpolitics and personalities.
Boy Golden broke out on Alt RockRadio with the groove heavy Katy

(04:07):
and lunch meat, but had alreadybeen turning out rolling blues
anchored satire like the Churchof Better Days.
Boy.
Golden was an incarnation thatonly this guy me could have ever
understood arrived at piecedtogether.
Serendipity is, after all, apersonal experience, a very

(04:29):
personal experience when aseries of occurrences, in this
case over 35 years.
A line in a very satisfying way.
Boy Golden is the artisticpersona of Liam Duncan, a Juno
nominated manitoban artist,producer, and musician boy,
golden really elevated thissatisfying serendipity during

(04:52):
this conversation, catching mein post vacation zen state, and
inspiring me with routines andpractices that I think we could
all benefit from feeling morecreative.
And more present.
My name is Glen Erickson.
This is Almost Famous Enough.

(05:12):
Thank you for spending your timewith us.
This is Boy Golden

Glen Erickson (05:29):
thank you so much, Liam, for taking a little
bit of time to, to join me here.
so you're, uh, you're at home, Ipresume,

Boy Golden (05:38):
Yes, sir.

Okay.
you, you had a release, you hadan EP release with six shooter
in March Summer's coming up.
So I guess my first questionwhen I to somebody and where
they're at is, um, where are youin the cycle of, of the job, of
the business right now?
Um, you know, versus recordingversus promoting, all that

(06:03):
stuff.

Boy Golden (06:04):
I just finished making a new record.
So I'm kind of off cycle fortouring at the moment, but I
guess where we are in the cycleright now is just like making
all the plans, making all thevideos, making all the photos,
'cause the record's done andeverything else is done.
So we're just kind of in that,in that stage.

Yeah.
Well, I

Boy Golden (06:26):
I mean.

let me ask you this,'cause this keeps coming up
with a lot of artists I'mtalking to as sort of the side
joke of the life now of, um, youknow, your, your part-time
musician, part-time contentcreator, uh, or, or at least the
pressure to be, so to speak.
Um, I'm wondering where thatsits with you and, and then how

(06:48):
you do things or how much, youknow, you get involved in that,
or you feel the pressure aboutit or have people who are doing
it.
Where, where does that sort ofsit or resonate with you?

Boy Golden (06:59):
yeah, it's kind of a big question.
I mean, I don't think of myselfas part-time, anything.
I've full-time do this all thetime, so I, but I just think
it's like, to some extent it'sgonna be part of the job.
To what extent it's part of yourjob Is is up to you.
For me, I think I have a fairlygood balance with it right now.
Certainly I don't have a verynatural talent at it.

(07:22):
Um, I would love it if I wasjust naturally good at, at
making things that people liketo watch on the internet, but
it's not my, I kind of think onsome level it helps if you're a
big consumer of that content to,to make it, you know, to know
what people like.
And I kind of make every effortin my life to consume as little.
Have that kind of content as Ican, and I feel like it makes me

(07:45):
feel really disconnected fromit.
So for the most part, I try tojust make things that I like and
then put those out.
And I, and I'm open to tryingnew things too.
I mean, I think one thing aboutthe internet is it's a bit of a
sandbox.
Always has been, continues tobe, and you can try stuff on and
if it doesn't really feel right,then you don't have to do it
again.

(08:05):
would I love to be the kind ofartist that doesn't really ever
have to make anything?
Yeah, of course.
But I also am the kind of artistthat, uh, I need to grow more in
order to have like a reallysustainable livelihood.
so I'm ready to do, I'm ready todo the work if I need to.

Well,

Boy Golden (08:23):
Well.

this was actually a question down the road on my
sheet, but, but that's okay.
I don't mind jumping in rightwhere we are.
because I, one thing I'venoticed about you and when I,
I've sort of looked back at someof the stuff either that you've
put out obviously, but also justthings that you've said in other
conversations, uh,

Boy Golden (08:40):
There's a lot to,

take on creativity.
Which I'm really, reallyinterested in.
And so I, you know, I led withthe joke about being a content
creator in the current age ofthe musician and, jostling for
how much of your time either ofthose can take depending on who
you are.
But, you

Boy Golden (08:58):
you know, something you said that is.

jostled that for me, which is, you know, if
you're in the, in the role ofcreator and have a creative
career, you know, learning your,your willingness to learn all
that kind of stuff, where does,where does that sort of sit,
where you in in your day-to-day?
Sort of the, there's a lot more,well, let me put it this way.

(09:21):
Even like you were saying, youknow, I'd be happy maybe for
other people to do it.
Um.
But your, you have a sense ofhumor that's really obvious in a
lot of your stuff that comes outin, you know, the music, but
I've seen you play live at a, afolk fest here in Edmonton and,
just in how you are on stage andwith the people that are around

(09:42):
you in visuals.
So you obviously have a lot ofinput on a lot of that kind of
stuff.
So, how do you feel like, do youfeel like the whole job then is
tapping into your creativity ordo you feel like, that's a sort
of an open door?

Boy Golden (09:56):
that's a good question.
I don't really feel like thewhole job taps into your
creativity.
I think my job as an artist isreally to write what, write
something that feels true to meand.
I would be doing that, whetheror not I was doing this for a
job.
I've, I was writing songs thatfelt true to me when I was

(10:19):
working at a bar, when I wasshoveling snow, when, you know,
I've been doing that for a longtime and I don't think I would
ever stop doing that, even if Idecided that doing this as a
career wasn't for me.
So I kind of find it personallyhelpful to separate the two a
bit and go, well, listen, I needto make stuff so that people

(10:40):
engage with the things that Imake, that I really do care
about.
And so, I try to, I'm actually,I just try to develop that side
of my brain as well.
'cause I feel like, as I wassaying before, because I'm not a
big consumer of that sort ofcontent, I feel like I lack
taste with it a bit to someextent.
And I sometimes don't know ifwhat I'm making is like.

(11:03):
Bad.
Whereas when I'm writing, I havea pretty good sense.
It's like an intuitive sense.
I don't need to question it ofwhether what I'm writing feels
right, but when I'm making stufffor the internet, I sort of lack
that sense of, Hey, does thisfeel right or does, does this
not feel right?
So I've been working ondeveloping that sense over the
last five years, I would say.

(11:23):
And I've learned a lot.
I mean, I've done a lot ofthings on the internet that I
look back on and go, whew, thatwas pretty cringey.
But, uh, I don't mind, I don'tmind, uh, embarrassing myself
every once in a while andfeeling embarrassed.
I think that's fine.
I think if you're scared to beembarrassed, you're, you've
probably already lost.
You know?
You gotta put yourself outthere.

that's a really good perspective actually, I
think because I hear a lot ofthe discomfort from people about
being pushed to do so much morecontent creation themselves as a
way of promoting and buildingawareness in the way that it
looks today.
but I think like what you saidthere probably really identifies
where that discomfort comesfrom, is that we as musicians,

(12:03):
we develop a really strong shipmeter.
we've been doing it since wewere young.
if you're in an area where youdon't have a developed ship
meter, you're just gonna getuncomfortable.
Right.
Like, it's just not a, acomfortable space to be in.
that makes a lot of sense.
Uh, let me, let me jump back'cause I'm really just sort of
interested in of how you got towhere Boy Golden is right now.

(12:25):
And, so, born and raised Brandonis what I see, uh, Manitoba,
like the, uh, the quote unquotesuburb of, of Winnipeg.
I think it's kind of funny.
It's like, what, like 45 minutesdrive

Boy Golden (12:39):
Oh, it's two.
It's two hours.

Is it, why did I always think it was 45 minutes?
Okay.
Nevermind.

Boy Golden (12:44):
I don't know, maybe 'cause you zone out when you're
driving through it,

That could be,

Boy Golden (12:48):
it definitely doesn't feel like a suburb.
I feel like if growing up there,going into Winnipeg felt like,
oh, going into the big city, youknow,

Yeah, I grew up in a small town called Rosetown,
Saskatchewan.
That was like about 50 minutesoutside of Saskatoon.

Boy Golden (13:01):
I know exactly where Rosetown is.
Actually,

you the

Boy Golden (13:05):
I,

wheat

Boy Golden (13:05):
you wanna know something weird?
I I, I had a lot of, uh, I, whenI was younger, I flirted with a
lot of different hobbies and fora while I doubt you could still
find it.
But for a while, while I wastouring, I would write blogs
about the history of whateverrandom town I was driving
through that I thought wasinteresting.
And I remember writing one aboutRosetown, so that's why I know

(13:28):
where Rosetown is.

that's awesome.

Boy Golden (13:31):
I don't remember much about what I learned, but
yeah.

yeah, there, I mean, I don't know what you
would learn either actually nowthat I think about it, but it
was like, as a small kid, thatfelt like a giant drive.
And it was 50 minutes, I think.
But yeah, Saskatoon felt likethe really, the real big city.
you're

Boy Golden (13:47):
growing up there,

and you make the move to Winnipeg at some point
'cause you get kind of the tastefor music.
So I guess my first

Boy Golden (13:54):
but

is uh, were there things around you or family or
people or the influences thatstarted that taste for music and
that, that jump to kind ofreally just be more around the
music scene and stuff?
Um, I mean, I've seen you, yousee different people right when
they're growing up.
The ones that kind of like justgo all in the music stuff right
away.

(14:15):
And then the ones that right,while they still are going to
school and doing all the thingsto appease their parents and
stuff.

Boy Golden (14:21):
I'm wondering what

of that was for you in your development?

Boy Golden (14:25):
Yeah, so, uh, my main influence in that regard
was the, the band I was in inhigh school.
It's called the the Middle Coastwith my friends Roman.
Roman Clark and DylanMcDonald's, who both are still
professional artists.
And, uh, we started touringright outta high school.
We played over 600 showstogether.

(14:46):
so I would say we, but we, all,three of us landed more on the,
like doing it immediately kindof thing.
I did, I graduated high school ayear early, and then yeah, my
parents were like, well, youcan't just hang around.
You gotta go to school.
So I went to school, for a yearfrom, for music and then, but I,
I didn't really stick, I kind ofdidn't get as much out of it as

(15:07):
I, I wish I did, uh, because Ireally just wanted to play with
my fun rock band.
So that's what, that's what wedid.
And we went on tour, and juststarted, started doing the DIY
kind music scene thing.

Was that still in Brandon or you

Boy Golden (15:22):
Yeah.

Winnipeg

Boy Golden (15:23):
Yeah.
No, we, I mean, honestly, wewere, we booked ourselves so
busy.
We didn't need to be in, wedidn't feel like we were, we
didn't feel like we needed to bein Winnipeg yet.
And, but then, then all of asudden we did,'cause we were
playing gigs in Winnipeg severaltimes a month.
And so it just made, and we werestarting to make friends there,
and it was just obvious therewas no way we could stay in

(15:45):
Brandon.
And then at some point thathappens in Winnipeg too.
I, Dylan and I both moved toToronto to try and grow what we
were doing.
And then the pandemic happened,uh, and there was no work.
And then you were just paying alot of money for a, an apartment
in Toronto.
You couldn't do anything.
So we all ended up moving backto Winnipeg.
And that was while I was stillin Toronto.

(16:08):
During the pandemic was when Irecorded the first boy Golden
album in my apartment there.
And then.
I finished it in my friend'sbedrooms and stuff here in
Winnipeg and then it sort ofjust kind of took me on a ride
for the last five years.
So I haven't, uh, moved back toToronto and I don't really plan
to, but it's still, no matterwhere you are, it's with music,

(16:30):
it's helpful to get out there.
So, spent a couple months inNashville this winter.
Probably gonna go back again,uh, next winter.
you know, it's a, music is somuch fun for that because it's
just so easy to meet people.

Yeah.

Boy Golden (16:43):
Mm-hmm.

I mean, Winnipeg has a great reputation of
incredible fertile ground formusicians and, uh.
Of like all kinds of genres, butjust musicians in general.
So I suppose that would be apretty comfortable jump back.
Right.
you, I mean even, even you beinglike, we booked 600 shows with

(17:05):
this band when we were liketeenagers.
Like that's like, that's notnormal.
a lot.
That's a pretty cool experienceto have at such a young age.
Were you already getting exposedto the business?
'cause you were able to bookthat much like you're getting,
you're talking to eithermanagements or agents or, or

(17:25):
people like that.

Boy Golden (17:27):
Yeah, we tried so hard.
We tried way too hard.
We, we, like we did end uphaving a manager.
We had an agent, uh, we touredin Japan.
We, there was like this guy inNashville that was, that took us
to a party and told everyonethere he was gonna win a Grammy
with this band.
And you know, like the whole,all that weird shit.

(17:49):
So we got exposed to thebusiness.

does to you, man.
When someone does like that,right?

Boy Golden (17:55):
It is so dumb.

that.
Yeah.

Boy Golden (17:58):
Yeah, I, you know, I'm so grateful for all those
experiences because first off, Ihave a pretty good head on my
shoulders when it comes to thebusiness side of things, which a
lot of artists don't becauseeither they just don't come by
it as easily, or, um, no oneever gave him the chance to
learn about it.
Uh, but yeah, we all, we all didit ourselves, so we all got to

(18:21):
learn about it ourselves.
I got, I wrote, I used to writegrants for other people.
I, I kind of honestly thought Iwould end up on the business
side of music because I came towriting songs quite late in my
life.
I was very blocked around thatfor a long time until I was 21.
And so when I was in my, likelate teens and very early

(18:42):
twenties, I was mostly.
Working on the business side ofthings and I was record,
recording, producing, andmixing, at a very amateur level.
Um, but that grew into, youknow, I still just do that today
basically, but I also writesongs and have my own career.
So it, it's, I have a it.
Yeah, it's a strange life.

Yeah, it is.
But I mean, there's so manydifferent skill sets, like you
said, like, you know, like whenwe, when we buy that, like when
we're young and we buy that biglabel, big.
Name album.
You read the credits, you likestarting to get to know who all
the people are.
The credits are a mile long,Because there's a different
person for every single one ofthose roles.

(19:23):
But like you said, when you'reyoung, I mean, that's an amazing
skill and gift.
I think the opportunity to learnhow all those hats work to wear
them and um, even learn theskillset behind them and, and
see what they take you down.
Um, so it's in Toronto that youstart developing the Boy Golden,
or were you already working onthe boy golden sort of version

(19:46):
of your, of yourself by thatbefore that point?

Boy Golden (19:49):
I was already working on it, but I didn't know
what it was.
I wrote my first record andreleased it myself in 2018 or
2019 or something.
I can't actually quite remembernow.
Oh, I have it right here.
'cause I just found, I justfound, I was cleaning out my
garage and I found out, found200 of these things and I was
like, I actually don't know whatto do with them.

(20:10):
So I ended up just donatingthem.
But, it was released in 2019.
Apparently, according to it, Ikept, I kept five for a memento.
Whatcha you supposed to do withall this old crap?

know

Boy Golden (20:19):
But

the same thing.
I had a band too, and we, andlike

Boy Golden (20:23):
yeah, you end up with all this stuff,

know, the boxes, the CDs ship in those

Boy Golden (20:26):
believe me.

ones.

Boy Golden (20:28):
Yeah.

Yeah.
And I was like, what the hell,man?
Like,

Boy Golden (20:31):
Yeah.

done our reunion reunion shows.
I don't know what to do withthese anymore.

Boy Golden (20:35):
Exactly.
It's kind of sad.
But anyways, yeah, so I wasalready working on it.
And then this album, that firstalbum of mine was really
important for me.
But what I realized looking backis that I wasn't, um, I wasn't
really writing from the truestplace that I could at that
point.
It, when I listen to those now,which I don't do often, but I

(20:57):
have, you know, I, I just hearthe influence of other people
more.
And then at some point afterthat, after that, that came out
and like nothing reallyhappened.
And it was a lot of work and itwas just sort of like, meh.
I was like, man, I'm taking thisshit way too seriously.
And then I just started goinginto the, I was like, the only

(21:19):
part about this that matters tome is making.
Something that I love.
And so I just started to go intothe studio.
I shared a studio with thisother fellow and I went in every
second day, or you know, threeor four times a week, usually at
nine in the morning.
And I would just try and makesomething new every time.
And that's what Boy Golden cameout of was just that creative,

(21:41):
like a creative practice reallyis what I consider it.
Yeah.

Yeah.
That's a real discipline.
A lot of people don't, I think,have that approach in their
story, uh, which is pretty cool.
Like, so.
Okay.
I read also, by the way, thatyour name.
The boy golden name, which Ithought was a great little story
that that's actually golden, wasyour mother's maiden name.
when you're think, were youtrying to actively think of a

(22:06):
name or was this one of thosethings where you're just like in
the shower and it just presentsitself to you?
Like that's the name.

Boy Golden (22:12):
Yeah, it was that.
I don't remember how I came upwith it.
It was like, I remember writing,I wrote the song Church of
Better Days, and I was like,Hmm, I think actually that's
what the whole world is.
And then I was like, and I thinkmy name is Boy Golden.
I, I don't know, I don'tremember.
I mean, I was stoned all thetime back in those days.
So sometimes my memories are abit fuzzy.

(22:36):
Uh, but yeah, I don't rememberwhere it came from.
I just remember that if it feltright.
And then when I told otherpeople, they were like, yeah,
that's cool.
You know, I remember distinctlymy friend Cody, who was
recording some percussion on theChurch of Better Day's album was
like, you know, normally I kindof hate everything like that,
but I actually like that one.
And I was like, well, I thinkthat's about as good of a vote

(22:59):
of confidence as I'm gonna get.
So.

Yeah, so, so the writing for that album you're
describing as, like you making ashift in what you felt like
you're, you're like, I gottastop taking this so seriously.
So that, sort of shift for youpersonally is really what was
part of the fuel behind what youstarted writing that became that
entire album.

Boy Golden (23:20):
Yeah.

Yeah.
so, um, let me, I, okay, wellactually, I'm gonna just zero
on, on this first and then Ihave some other stuff.
But I like, what I'm really socurious about with people is
you've had this experience of asong on that first kinda record
of Under Boy Golden, likeblowing up, right?
So you've had the experience ofK and lunch meet kind of.
Kind of blowing up in the on theradio, it starts charting on the

(23:44):
radio.
You start getting differentavenues and I don't know, I
guess I'm curious, likesometimes those things are a
really fast snowball down thehill and, and sometimes they
were a slow burn.
and either way they sort ofpresent sort of different unique
challenges to an artist that Ithink sometimes people are
really curious about.
And I'm curious what that likefor you.

Boy Golden (24:06):
And I guess,

I, I'll let you

Boy Golden (24:07):
you know,

part of my angle is like full transparency is
just, always curious if that wasthe song that you would've
thought been thing.
Do you know what I mean?
Like,

Boy Golden (24:20):
I remember, um.

hearing an interview with Edward Sharp
about that song home thattotally blew up and stuff for
them and became.
That big song for them in allkinds of avenues and alt radio,
which they never would'vethought they were gonna play on
and stuff.
And, and hearing him say he, youknow, when they're writing
songs, they wouldn't, theydidn't finish that song and
think, oh yeah, this is the one.
And I'm curious what yourexperience with that, song has

(24:44):
been.

Boy Golden (24:45):
Yeah, I mean, when I wrote it, I didn't think
anything of it at all.
I try, I guess I, I try to keepmy mind pretty free of judgment
around things that I just made.
and I wrote it like some randomTuesday morning, you know, just
like I was saying, it was, I wasgoing in there every couple days
and making something new, andthat's what I made that day.

(25:06):
But I would, I will say that themore I sat with the demo I made,
the more I was like, I thinkthis one has some legs.
And then when I made the finalversion.
I mean, there's a reason it'sthe first song on the album.
You know, I knew, I knew it wascatchy and poppy and fun, and I
thought people would like it.
I did.
I think it was gonna go on theradio.
No, I mean, it's, it's mixed inmono, uh,

saw that.
I saw that.

Boy Golden (25:31):
you know, it's like, it's not, it was not made to be
on the radio.
Nothing about my music has everbeen radio focused, which I'm
sure some people I work withwould love it if more of it was,
but it's just I that's not, youcan't do that.
You can, but I'm not going to, Iguess.

Yeah.
I mean, uh, you made thestatement about you approach all
these things without judgment.
It's interesting.
That's the second time I'veheard that week.
I think I was listening to, ICan't Place It, another podcast
with an artist who was talkingabout that exact same phrase of
it's the only way to, to remainsort of consistent and pure in

(26:11):
their approach is not judgethemselves in the middle of
trying to create something.

Boy Golden (26:16):
Totally even afterwards, you know, like I, I
struggle with it sometimes.
I feel like I just went througha phase of a couple of weeks,
maybe even a couple of months,where I just was feeling so, uh,
um, I was feeling so likeembarrassed of all of my past
work and just feeling like, uh,just, I'm just so, shit, you

(26:38):
know, I'm, what am I doing?
You know, and really like, what,what is that?
Like who is that helping, youknow?
And.
All that makes me do, when I sitdown to write, which I still do
all the time, it all that makesme do is makes it harder.
It makes it harder to get toanything that is true.
It makes me want to selfaggrandize or be more humble

(27:02):
than I am or whatever.
It just makes me want tocompensate for my own
insecurity.
And so really for me, the O, theonly way is to try and just stay
present and stay and try not tojudge, you know, because you
don't know.
You don't always know what'sbest.
I'll say that too, like most ofthe time the song that I think

(27:24):
is the best song.
Isn't.
Uh, and a lot of the time when Ifinish a song that, and I'm so
excited, I'm like, oh my God, Ijust wrote a smash and then I
play it for someone else, andthey're like, yeah, it's pretty
good, you know?
And then I sit with it for acouple weeks and I'm like, ah,
god dammit.
No, I didn't.
And it's funny that like most ofthe best songs I've ever

(27:46):
written, I write and then I, Idon't feel anything about them.
Maybe because I stayed in thatspot.
I'm not really sure why that is.
I just, I viscerally had thatexperience, like writing for
this album I just made where Iwas, I was doing a bunch of
co-writes, I think I wrote like23 songs in, in February leading
up to this, you know, and Ialready had, I'm, I'm, I'm a

(28:08):
pretty consistent writer.
It's part of how I do things.
So I, I already had 70 and thenI just like wrote all these
extra ones while I was preparingto make this recording.
And I remember this day cominghome from this co-write and
being like, so pumped.
I was like, man, that was sofun.
And I really, really, really,really liked this song.
And I sent it to my friendFontine, who I pretty much send

(28:29):
all of my songs to.
And she was like, yeah, it'spretty cool.
And I was like, what do youmean?
It's pretty cool.
This is amazing.
And then, and then.
A few days later, I was likedone working for the day and
just chilling and I was justlike strumming my guitar a
little bit.
I think I was watching TV andplaying.
Then I came up with something onthe guitar and I was like, Hmm,

(28:50):
that's pretty cool.
Paused it, wrote a song in like15 minutes.
I sent it to the producer, youknow, went to bed.
Next day he is like, I lovethis.
And I'm like, really?
Like, yes, I love this.
And then we recorded it and nowit's like one of the singles,
it's the title track of thealbum.

(29:10):
It's, you know, it Know what Imean?
So it doesn't help to put abunch of pressure on it.
It doesn't help to judgeyourself.
It just doesn't,

yeah.
I, I was listening to that song,Exploder Podcast's been around
forever and the artists talkabout their songs and the number
of times I've heard an

Boy Golden (29:25):
I.

say this one almost didn't make the album.
And now it's the one they'retalking about like years later,
uh, is often surprising.
I, I wonder also a little bit,Liam, if, if that sort of, like
you said, you very often don'thave any feeling about it one
way or the other.
I'm wondering if that comes fromyour ability to become such a

(29:46):
disciplined songwriter.
Right.
A lot of people still just writeout of their feeling or their
impulse, right?
They pick up the guitar whenthey're in a mood or, or feel
like a, a burden to communicatesomething versus that
discipline.
Like I, I've meet a lot ofcountry people, right?
So they do all these rights inNashville where it is such a,
it's such a disciplined, youknow, it's like, book me on my

(30:10):
Calendly.
I have a, a writing sessionavailable at 10 and two.
You know, and, and that sort iton the surface looks like it
takes the feel of it, but Ithink there's a value to how
you're accomplishing what you'reaccomplishing.

Boy Golden (30:24):
A hundred percent.

Yeah.

Boy Golden (30:26):
I think it's so silly when people are like, like
look down on people who dowriting sessions or whatever.
I'm like, you don't know whenthe thing is gonna come.
Why not sit at the desk and ifit comes that day, at least
you'll be ready.
You know, it's like the amountof times I feel like, oh my God,
I have something in me right nowthat I, that should come out and

(30:49):
I'm like, at a grocery store orlike completely unable to do it.
It, that's so frustrating.
Like, why would you wait?
Just sit down and do it.
And, anyways, but it's also funand beautiful that other people
feel so inspired.
I feel like I always havesomething I can communicate.
part of my practice is, uh, I domorning pages every day, so I, I

(31:13):
write.
Three pages in like a littlejournal like this of longhand
stream of consciousness thoughtevery day when I wake up.
And there's always stuff upthere.
You've got your thoughts are,your thoughts are going all the
time.
There's always feelings and uh,so that's sort of how I try and

(31:35):
stay connected with it.
I will say that I go through,there are natural phases where
I'm like not writing as much.
It's really hard to write on theroad when you're at our level
'cause it's just so allconsuming.
And then sometimes when I'm athome I just like, it's not the
time.
You know?
Like even right now

Yeah.

Boy Golden (31:56):
I feel like I put, I put so much of myself into the
record I just made, it's wasthree years of writing, you
know?
Probably well over a hundredsongs whittled down to 12.
It's like, I, yeah, I feel alittle bit empty right now of,
uh, of songs and I'm cool withthat.
It's like, who am I trying toimpress, you know?

(32:18):
But I, I still sit down with theguitar and I try and write, but
I haven't, I haven't come up, Ihaven't finished a whole song
since March, probably.
But I have dozens of littleideas.
'cause I still sit down towrite, so I don't know.

Well, I think that's, I think that's a great
way to describe it.
And again, like, I mean this, tobe completely honest, this is
why I do the podcast, Liam, islike, um.
I, I just think you learn somuch from hearing how somebody
else has done it or experiencedit, right?
And the, the obvious takeaway tome there is that, yeah, you have

(32:54):
your ebbs and flows likeeverybody, but the discipline
part is what really, it doesn'trob you of inspiration to have
the, a discipline, right?
All you're doing is consistentlytapping into something that's
there

Boy Golden (33:09):
Yeah.

discipline instead of waiting around for
inspiration.
I used to work, uh, in his, inhis early days with a, with Andy
s Schoff, and he was a prolificwriter.
He just kept writing andwriting.
He wanted to do a double albumand I was like, I don't, are you
sure you wanna do a doublealbum?
I'm like, um, I probably had thenerve to say to him, maybe

(33:31):
they're not all great and youshould just do a sneak of great.
Um, which, you know, foot in mymouth.
That guy, uh,

Boy Golden (33:39):
No, you might have been right.
I mean, who knows?

them.
But, um, I think that's afantastic, fantastic discipline.
I, you know, let me ask youthis,'cause I, I alluded to it
earlier, but I found, I hadwatched a couple things.
You had even like a, a video youmade shortly after, I think
Katie and Lunch Meet came outand a and a couple of interviews
he had done.

(34:03):
I, I read about, and I just, Isaw an interesting thing in
there about creativity and youwere talking about things that
you were discovering in yourspirituality

Boy Golden (34:12):
Hmm.

and, and wearing that on your sleeve kind of,
and, and how much that had to dowith creativity and how you
people in general, just the waythe world has worked in the
industrial era for a, you know,hundred years has really robbed
us of that.
I, I'm just curious what yourthoughts are on that and what

(34:33):
your own discovery and wherethat's kind of led you.
I mean, the thing I read was acouple years ago, I mean.
I I, I'm just curious reallywhat, where that has led you?

Boy Golden (34:43):
My thoughts on spirituality is that kind of,

Yeah.
Just how that's developed in youfrom, from when you kind of were
like, I think this is a thing,and then you're able to start
articulating it, but you've

Boy Golden (34:54):
I'm still working on articulating it.

Yeah.

Boy Golden (34:56):
think the more you, the more you are try to
articulate it, the harder itgets.
In some ways it's like, but yes,I would say that.
My, what I would loosely call myspiritual life has become more
and more important to me.
Um, as I get older and gothrough life.

(35:18):
Everything feels like it needsto be imbued with spirit to me.
And that is why I want to makemusic.
That is why I want to have goodrelationships.
That's why I want to be healthy.
That's why I want to be present.
That's why I meditate.
That's why I write in my journalin the morning.

(35:39):
It's like, I'm, I, I want to behere for my life ultimately.

Hmm.

Boy Golden (35:44):
I don't want it to, I don't want to miss it.
And so the discipline of.
Creating art, the discipline ofsongwriting, the discipline of
musicianship.
All of these things are, I wantto have more of it in my life
and at and at the same time,because there are seasons to

(36:05):
things and things do ebb andflow.
If I'm gonna rest, I would liketo be disciplined in that as
well.
I would not like to spend myrestful hours staring at my
phone.
I would like to spend it doingsomething that genuinely feels
restful to me, whether that'sactually laying around or maybe
that's exercising, or maybethat's volunteering or whatever

(36:27):
it is.
It's like I, I'm just likealways reminded how short, how
precious this life we have is.
It just seems like the mostimportant thing to me.
And the other thing that thathelps with is, uh.
I obviously do care about my,the career, the business, all
these things.

(36:47):
I care about them a lot becauseI need to, because I need to
make money and because I want tohave a life and maybe I want to
have a family someday, and whoknows?
but at the same time, when I canground myself in that side of my
life, the spiritual side of mylife, all that doesn't, all that
doesn't matter to me as much,and I can take it a little less
seriously.

(37:08):
Does that make sense?
I didn't say too, too much, but.

No, I think that was fa I think that's really
incredible.
I mean, yeah, I think that'sreally thoughtful.
I, I don't know, I don't knowthat a lot of people talk about
them in a way that they couldcomfortably talk about being so
blended, if I can put it thatway.
Right.
I, I think some people may be onsome version of a journey, or

(37:34):
some people may feel like someparts of their personal
exploration is making it wayinto their music a little bit,
and that's still not the same asit clearly is the person.
Do you know what I mean by that?
Like, I mean, can, you can, youcan, you can

Boy Golden (37:52):
Work on your,

personal exploration and sometimes that
comes out as subject matter inyour songs, right?
Or your art.
You may be a painter or whateverit may be.
but then you meet artists andit's that version of, oh man,
that.
Those people more live andbreathe what they're saying all
the time.
Like you get a sense that it'snot just an excavation for the

(38:14):
sake of being able to make someart with it.
It's, it's an actual fullembodiment journey.
And so

Boy Golden (38:22):
so when you said that, that makes sense.
Perfect

it makes perfect

Boy Golden (38:24):
sense, like

little

Boy Golden (38:26):
little bit.

about you to want to ask the question.
And that totally captures to mewhat I expected and hoped.
I think it's cool approach and avery, and even what you said at
the start of, I don't know if Istill am articulating it, I
think it's, for me in my life,it's because the deeper I
usually dig, the bigger it gets.

(38:47):
So for me to expect to be ableto articulate it better over
time, it's actually the reverse.
It's gonna get harder becausemore I learn the, the, the
bigger it feels.
I'm swimming in a bigger poolall the time and take myself
less seriously.
But,

Boy Golden (39:03):
Yeah, exactly.
I mean, the first,

all that.

Boy Golden (39:07):
the first page of, uh, the Da Ching says the Dao
that you can name is not theDao.
Right.
And I think you could replaceDAO with anything.
The God that you can name is notGod.
You can't, you can try, you cantry to talk about it, but
talking about it is not thedirect experience of it.
And.

(39:29):
Talking about creativity is notthe experience of creativity,
right?
By the same, in the same lens.
Um, it's fun to talk, it's, it'sfun to talk about and I love
talking about it, but I, moreand more lately I've been less
interested in talking about itand more interested in just

(39:51):
doing it.
And that's always been the case.
But for a while, initially, likeespecially five years ago when I
was really getting into startingthis project, it's like I was
like bursting with this.
Like, you guys, like yourcreative practice can be your
spiritual practice.
It's the same thing.
And now I'm kind of like, Idon't know, I feel, I feel like

(40:14):
I've accepted that in more of abig way, but also have found a
lot more nuance in it than justthat.
And I'm going, I'm still kind ofworking out all my thoughts,
but.
It all comes down to just being,being, trying to be as present
as you can and then, and thenshowing up for your, whatever
your practice is.

yeah,

Boy Golden (40:33):
Yeah.
It's hard.
It's, it's hard to do.
Yeah.
Yeah.

totally get that.
So you shift through all ofthat.
I, I, I guess I'm curious wherethat puts you right now, talking
a little bit about that sort ofjourney that you kind of am on
and discovering yourself thatway.
you know, you make this firstrecord that is kind of a, a
shift away from what you wereand you're like, I need to take

(40:58):
it so seriously.
You start writing, you make arecord.
That record gets legs reallyquick for you.
To the point where I'm assumingyou probably assembled a team
and everything, you know, in thebusiness terms for most up and
comers relatively quick.

Boy Golden (41:12):
Not kind of, I actually did it myself for,
besides I had a label, the labelf found me quickly and, but like
I did like everything myselfuntil May of last year.
Like manage managerial wise andeven accounting wise and
everything until I was like justabout, just about ready to lose

(41:34):
it.
'cause it, it fully got to belike all consuming and it really
was seriously detrimental to mycreative practice and thus my
spiritual life.
And it was just like the wholething was feeling very wrong.
And then just as luck might haveit, I very randomly got a
message from this manager whowas not offering to manage me.

(41:58):
She was just like.
Hey, cool music.
And I was like, thanks.
And I was like, I kind ofrecognize your name.
Then I went and looked her up.
I was like, oh, shit.
She's a pretty, prettywell-known music manager.
And then I was like, Hey, do youknow I don't have a music
manager?
Would you like to chat?
And then she was like, oh, Iassumed you did.

(42:19):
Like, yeah, let's chat.
And then, so for the past, Iguess year and three months now,
I've, I've had a, like a actualfull compliment and it's been so
good.
I've been so, I've been so happyfor it.
I mean, I'm so impressed bypeople who can really just like
run their whole business and doall, but the more, the more help

(42:41):
I've gotten with all that, thebetter my actual inner life has
felt.
So I'm super, super grateful forit.

Hmm.

Boy Golden (42:48):
Yeah.
Mm-hmm.

I mean, so you came out of, I'm wondering, in
the middle of, actually, thisisn't the question I'm gonna
ask.
The question I really wanted toask was, you explained a whole
bunch of this stuff, you know,even what you're just talking
about now is like, there's a lotof the business side of this
stuff that it's awesome that youdo or can do as long as you can,
but like everybody hits a point,it's different for everyone

(43:10):
probably.
So, but you talked about sort ofthat achieving this place of
balance and, and uh, beingpresent and all this.
I'm wondering what parts, andmaybe these are the parts you
were just talking about, butwhat parts of being a full-time.
Artist, are the ones thatactually make it really hard to

(43:30):
be a full-time artist.

Boy Golden (43:33):
Yeah.
Um, I think touring, I, I reallylike touring.
Uh, I think a lot of people findit really, really hard.
It's, it can be really hard onyour relationships.
Uh, it can be hard on your body.
It can be dangerous.
It can be really, really not funsometimes, like soul crushing

(43:53):
and pointless.
And,

Yeah.

Boy Golden (43:56):
it looks, the internet makes it look
glamorous.
Not many people are gonna postabout the empty rooms, but there
most artists have empty rooms.
Sometimes it happens, you know,so,

Yeah.

Boy Golden (44:07):
that can, that can be hard.

day, you spent a whole day doing.
Who knows what get to those twohours that were supposed to be
special in.
Who knows where to play an emptyroom,

Boy Golden (44:19):
Yeah.
Which is why I will say I'mextremely grateful for my band
and I love touring with thembecause it doesn't matter if
there's two people there.
Sometimes when there's twopeople there, that's when we
play our best show.
'cause we all just love playingwith each other.
And everyone's such a greatmusician and we just go for it
every single time.
That being said, the financialreality of playing to two people

(44:41):
with a five person band and asound tech is not possible to
maintain.
So

Yeah.

Boy Golden (44:48):
I try to do less of those.
I'm doing a little more solotouring now, which I find I
don't really like it that muchto be honest, but, um, I'm
trying my best to make it.
it's mostly just that I don'treally feel great about my show,
so I'm trying to make my showbetter when I play solo.
yeah, I think that can be hard.

right?

Boy Golden (45:07):
I think the money can be really hard, to be
honest.
It's like you can sometimesjust, just spend so much money.
You, you feel like you're makingmoney, but you're not.
Uh, it can be really confusingand hard to deal with and people
can, I've, I can, you know,people can get themselves into
pretty mysteriously badfinancial situations.

(45:27):
Debt wise and everything.
And'cause people tell you, youhave to do this and that, and
maybe you don't, or maybe youdo, but maybe it didn't work
out.
You took a gamble, didn't work.
These things happen.
I think, I think money can bereally hard on people.
And then I think that, uh,social media, which we talked
about before, trying to make allthis stuff all the time and then

(45:48):
also just like being constantlyperceived online, I think can be
really hard on you.
On you.
So these are some of the morechallenging things, I would say.
I think for some people.
Just to add one more thing, Ithink for some people, lack of
structure, it can be really,really bad for their mental,
spiritual, physical wellbeing.

(46:09):
Like you, you know, you'reworking your day job and you're
doing your artist thing on theside, and you're just dreaming
about that day when you can justwake up and.
Do whatever you want all day.
Well, it turns out doingwhatever you want all day is a
good way to do nothing all day

Yeah.

Boy Golden (46:25):
unless you have that, that practice where you're
like, oh, I know I can't go forbrunch'cause I, I work at 10 in
morning.
You know?
That's, that's the approach Itry to take, but

mean, that's exactly it.
I mean, I've, I, in my life, in,in digital great graphic design
history, I used to pay the billsthrough a lot.
I, I've always experienced thething that young designers or
artists of any kind don'trealize, which is how, um.
Incredibly paralyzing.
A blank canvas can be

Boy Golden (47:00):
mm-hmm.

to people.

Boy Golden (47:01):
Totally.

I would rather like give me some limitations
and boundaries or structure, asyou said, even something I have
to try to excel within and growout of and give me some
friction, you know, to get, toget things working.

Boy Golden (47:17):
Totally.

but you're right, structure is, uh, really hard on
lack of structure.
It's really hard on people.
Um,

Boy Golden (47:26):
Can I tell you about something that changed my life?

yeah.
Please do.

Boy Golden (47:30):
and this is something I still do regularly.
It's this thing that my friendNatalie Bour, who is actually my
roommate currently, uh, she,Natalie and her partner Eric,
are in this great band calledSlow Spirit, and Natalie brought
this creative practice thinginto our friend group that, uh,

(47:52):
we used to call it song Club,but now we call it song every
week.
And what it is, is.
One person organizes it, theyinvite like a group of people
and then group of songwriterstypically.
Uh, but you could do it with anyart, whether it's like literary
or visual or whatever.
But the point is, every Tuesdaywe do Tuesdays.

(48:15):
I don't know you can do any day.
It doesn't matter.
But we, we do it every two,every Tuesday night, you have to
submit something that you callfinished.
It can be 30 seconds long.
It can be three minutes long.
It can be instrumental, it canbe just acapella, it can be
whatever it is, but it has to befinished to you.
You have to submit that to herbefore you go to sleep on

(48:35):
Tuesday night.
And then every week there'slike, then she makes a playlist
of all of the submissions.
And the only thing that happensif you don't submit is that
you're outta the group for thatmonth.
Uh, so it's just thisself-imposed thing.
'cause it's really fun to be apart of.
'cause you get to hear what allthese other people are making
and sometimes there's reallycool people in the group.
Like we've had, there's beentimes when there's been some

(48:58):
pretty like well-known musiciansand artists in in the group.
Group and it's like veryprivate.
There's, there's some otherrules too, but, um, it's really
fun.
I've run them for my friendssometimes.
Um, I've sometimes kept themgoing for months.
and it's just like a way to havethat accountability with
yourself and, but also like in amusical community.

(49:21):
And that's been super fun.
That, that, that is sort of, I,I mean, did my practice grow
outta that or was that, I'm notreally sure.
I, I've always found it prettyeasy.
Some people find it really doesnot work for their.
The way their creative mindworks.
Like I have a friend who isincredibly prolific, but he
doesn't make stuff like that.

(49:42):
It's like one month he makeslike 50 songs and then he
doesn't make anything for twomonths.
And that's just how he works.
And it's not like he has aproblem finishing songs.
You know what I mean?
So I'm just like, well, thisisn't for you.
But for me, I like just likeplugging away at something, you
know?
I love, that makes me happy.

Yeah.
My A DHD probably falls withyour friend more, where I

Boy Golden (50:08):
Yeah,

ridiculous bursts and then,

Boy Golden (50:10):
that's cool.
There's nothing wrong with that.
You know?
Every, that's the thing.
That's why doing these podcasts,they probably are really
interesting for you.
And also like listening toartists talk about their process
is fascinating.
Like, I love listening.
I love just hearing abouteveryone's different ways they
do things.
Like some writers come out witha new book every year and a half
and others take a decade, and itdoesn't mean that one of their

(50:33):
books is better than the otherbook.
It's just like, that's what youhad to do.
Um, so I guess if anyone.

so much time asking people advice and uh, I'm
a pretty ballsy guy, so I'vespent a lot of my life just
asking people who havereputation or whatever, like
some advice or, and, and I'malways looking for some tidbit.
And I think subconsciously Iassumed there would be something
there that would tell me this isthe way, and then if I asked

(51:02):
three people, I'd probably getthe same answer and then it
would confirm for me that thisis the way And all that ever
happened was that the answerswere all different.
They were usually terriblysimplified, and terribly
customed to themselves and whothey were.
And all it ever taught me waslisten to everybody's
experience.

(51:23):
You know, find, find somecompanionship in, in more in
the, we all just figuring outhow to be who we are, rather
than assume that there's someblueprint that I'm missing that
will help me out.
And that's a lot of why I'minterested in doing the podcast
too.
'cause I think that's the veil Iwanna pull back

Boy Golden (51:44):
Hmm,

for people is that, you know, there's not a
blueprint, but if you arewilling to listen, there's, uh,
tons of things to learn fromeverybody.

Boy Golden (51:53):
totally.

find some, solace, you know, in someone who
does it similar to you andyou're not crazy.
So,

Boy Golden (52:02):
Yeah, I definitely think advice is worth being
skeptical of.
I just think, but I also am thesame.
I've like obsessively have askedfor advice, listen to podcasts,
listen to this and that.
And every once in a whilesomething comes along that I'm
like, whoa, that is some goodadvice.
And then it actually does,maybe, maybe it does actually

(52:23):
change my life.
But you, so many things have tobe in the right spot for a piece
of advice to hit you.
You have to be ready for that.
You have, you know, it has to beevery, all the stars have to
align.
So my favorite piece of advicethat I've ever gotten is just
to, just keep doing it.
Don't give up.
Just go.

I hear a lot of that.

Boy Golden (52:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.

Well, uh, I really appreciate your time, uh,
Liam and I appreciate, uh, sometransparency and honesty and
just the way you approach justchatting with me about
creativity, which isn't as funas being creative.
I know, but, um,

Boy Golden (53:01):
No, I'm not sure about that.

means a lot.

Boy Golden (53:04):
Sometimes doing the thing is also not fun.
I like, I do like chatting aboutit, so thanks for asking the
questions.
Yeah,

I really appreciate it.
I appreciate your time and, uh,I'm looking forward to seeing
you when you come around or outon the road and touching base
and maybe giving you a real lifehandshake at some point would be
awesome too.
So I appreciate you.
Thanks for all of this, andwe'll talk again soon.

Boy Golden (53:28):
thanks.
Yeah, thanks very much.
Talk to you later.
Bye.

You bet.

Glen (53:40):
Okay.
Well, we're back on season twoand welcome back to Post Fame.
I'm Glen.
This is Alexi I,

alexi (53:47):
Hey.

Glen (53:48):
hi.
Coming back in with season twowrap up of our episodes.
Uh, we.
We probably had the bestconversational gold before I hit
record just now.
So we just covered like, that Igave you a bad hairline and.
To make sure that you werewearing pants and then you

(54:08):
brushed the screen with a brushand then we changed the
microphone with, yeah, we didsome A SMR on your little
microphone.
Anyhow, so we've really covereda lot of bases before I even hit
record, but that's kind of thenature of what we do.
Yeah.
Okay.
So we're back and we're happyand we've got all these
episodes.
I can't wait to roll out topeople and some really cool

(54:30):
people.
And starting off season two withBoy Golden, uh, Liam, who I had
been, you know, trying andlooking forward to talking to a
long.
Part of the way through seasonone and was really excited when
the opportunity kinda lined up,uh, to have a conversation,
which was pretty cool.
And I guess sort ofserendipitous I see is that this

(54:52):
is Folk Fest weekend coming up

alexi (54:54):
say that.

Glen (54:56):
and it was last year

alexi (54:58):
Yep.

Glen (54:59):
got to watch.
Uh, boy Golden have a coupleperformances.
I thought.
Um, obviously his.
His own concert that they alwayshave at a folk fest was great,
really great.
that was on, oh shoot.
See how many years have we beengoing?
And I still forget the properstage numbers, but it was the
big one that's kind of inbetween.
Do you know that one?
I mean.

alexi (55:18):
I.

Glen (55:19):
So it wasn't stage, I think six or the one that's at
the very end by the food tent.
But then there's the one in themiddle that kind of has usually
the biggest like grass area.
Anyhow, I, I, that's what Iremember distinctly of his own
show.
But then I also remember the,one of the best part about folk
fests is, um.

alexi (55:39):
the

Glen (55:39):
side stage, the collabs.
Yeah, that's what we would callthem.
They call them workshops and Idon't know how they qualify as
workshops still to this day,but, uh, they're definitely
collabs, which are fun and hetotally killed it there with,
um, I don't know if he had allof his band or a good portion
with him anyhow.

(55:59):
Uh, and here we are talkingabout him exactly a year later
after

alexi (56:03):
I was gonna

Glen (56:04):
an episode.
So.

alexi (56:05):
that like prior to Folk Fest, I always make like my folk
Fest playlist and like take.
All the names of the people andadd like two to three of their
songs.
Um, and then like the weeksleading into Folk Fest, I like
shuffle it on all my drives andwhatnot.
Um, and it always ends up withme not pulling a glen and
missing a really good artistthat I'll have regrets about

(56:27):
later.
You know what I mean?

Glen (56:29):
Shots fired.
Wow.

alexi (56:31):
So anyways,

Glen (56:32):
Fair.
But okay.

alexi (56:34):
no, totally fair.
But I remember last year, um.
I had added, he was one of thefew artists where I had added
the name and I'm like, thissounds familiar, but I'm not
familiar with the music.
And then listened.
It was like, I need to see thislive kind of thing.
Um, and it really paid off, Ithink.
Uh, so then yeah, I was, I wasthinking, and I remember we were

(56:55):
talking when you started thepodcast about like possible
guests and we were kind ofrunning through like who have we
seen at Folk Fest in the pastfew years?
Who would like be cool guests,you know, if this podcast

Glen (57:06):
Yeah.

alexi (57:06):
Um, happened and I think like he was also one of the
names that was kind of firstdropped by you and I of like,
wouldn't it be kind of cool iflike we had Boy Golden on the
podcast?
Like, so I think

Glen (57:17):
Yeah, a hundred percent.
I, I just knew that there wasmore of a story that I wanted to
find out because he fit in well,vibe for sure.
Like, and that's, and I don'tknow, and I guess this is what
we'll find out.
Like I felt that there wasdefinitely.
He was, his vibe was very clearand present in the conversation
about exactly what it would belike to just, you know, sit down

(57:40):
at a food court with him andtalk, or some, I don't know why
I said food court, but,definitely the fact that.
You know, I think he got on alot of people's radar for the
song KD and Lunch Meat, whichhit like alt rock radio and did
really, really well and kind ofbecame a, a fixture.
And it was one of those commoninstances where a band has a

(58:03):
song like that that kind ofsatisfies wider taste, so it
gets on the radio, but then.
The rest of their music maybewould never hit the radio the
same way.

alexi (58:12):
Yeah.

Glen (58:13):
And then I get really curious about what kind of
artists they really are.
So,

alexi (58:18):
Yeah.

Glen (58:19):
but I think that definitely got satisfied when
you watch him play.
Like there's just a lot of souland a lot of, a lot of different
musical influence andinspiration in what he does.
And it's definitely the way helikes to play.
With people.
But, anyhow, I'll let you, Iknow you took some notes.

alexi (58:37):
That leads in'cause there's kind of two, things that
I like picked up on and you kindof just like led into both of
them equally.
But, um, the

Glen (58:46):
That's called serendipity, by the way.

alexi (58:48):
that's called yeah.

Glen (58:50):
I'm good at it.

alexi (58:51):
Yeah, it

Glen (58:51):
I.

alexi (58:52):
yeah, the first thing was like, just small note, but I
was, um, I thought it was reallyinteresting when he was talking
about how his, like Ka song wasthe one that hit the radio and
then how he kind of was talkingfor a few minutes about how,
like the songs he doesn't expectto like kind of blow up or do
well that do.
And then the ones where, um, andhe said it's so funny and I

(59:12):
can't remember the word, but he,the tone of his voice, he was
like, I just wrote a banger.
And it was like, so

Glen (59:18):
Yeah.
Yeah.

alexi (59:20):
And he is like, it never turns out to

Glen (59:21):
I.

alexi (59:21):
song.
and I did think that's so truewith like all kind of forms of
art and you hear it so manytimes, especially with like
bands who like get big, Like,like really, really, really huge
bands who like their random songgets really viral and then
everyone at the concerts wantsto hear it like played three
times in a row.
And then, you know, they're ontwo for long enough and they get

(59:42):
sick of it and then they justlike stop playing it.
And the people are mad, butthey're like, we don't even
really like that song.
Like, we don't wanna play that

Glen (59:49):
Well,

alexi (59:49):
Like we didn't expect that.

Glen (59:51):
first of all, most people just really, really want to hear
it in the concert.
You're the one that who wants tohear it three times in a row
'cause you play songs over andover.
We've established that, but uh,no, I totally think you're
right.
And it reminds me of like, yeah,I, well you just referenced it.
I've heard so many.
Like interviews with artists oreven like, you know, when they

(01:00:12):
talk to a band about their bigbreakout song 20 years down the
road and you find out that like,because there's so many people
in the process, right?
When they're a bigger band witha label and there's like a lot
of people in the chain makingdecisions and you hear them say,
oh, the label wanted me torelease.
This song, and I didn't want torelease this song.

(01:00:34):
I want, we thought it was gonnabe another song, and then they
decided to put this one out andthen it became the hit.
So like there's all kinds oflure about that happening in the
business.
So, you know, and then he, yeah,he kind of has his own
experience with it.

alexi (01:00:49):
Yeah.

Glen (01:00:49):
Yeah.

alexi (01:00:50):
yeah, I just thought that was so, so real though.
'cause you hear it so much fromlike, big artists.
I think it's like, justinteresting for me to hear it
from like an artist who's notlike, you know, the size of like
the Lumineers, because I'veheard them say it for sure.
And like,

Glen (01:01:01):
Yeah.
Yeah.

alexi (01:01:01):
mass.

Glen (01:01:03):
a middle class artist.
Yeah.

alexi (01:01:05):
And it's like, oh, like it's, you know, it's true for.
Everyone.
So I thought that was reallyinteresting.
and then the other piece waskind of the conversational part,
which you were just likementioning of like the, oh, you
can sit down in a food court islike the quote I wrote down and
it was the only one was like,you guys, it was right at the
end and you guys were chattingand then you like like almost
cuts you off and just goes, canI tell you about something that

(01:01:27):
changed my life?
And I just think that's sofunny.
And it also just like, I don'tknow from what I got from like
the whole podcast episode islike, so him.
Of just like the, Hey, can Ijust like tell you something
that changed my life?
and I love, I love that hejumped in like that and like
kind of started his own littlechat.
Um, but it was with the, likehis friends doing song of the

(01:01:47):
week, kind of that song club.
and just getting something onpaper and having to submit it
and then the accountability oflike, if you don't, you're out
for the month.
And like, so there's like kindof a pressure put on you.
and I

Glen (01:01:58):
Which, which works if it's a cool kids club, so

alexi (01:02:02):
yeah.

Glen (01:02:02):
you don't want, you don't want to get kicked out.
So they've obviously

alexi (01:02:05):
Yeah,

Glen (01:02:06):
now, it obviously to me is a cool club if nobody wants to
get kicked out of it.
Yeah.

alexi (01:02:12):
otherwise people would be like, oops, didn't, didn't
submit a song like, see you nextmonth.
no, but there was two parts thatI really liked and like one, and
you and I have talked aboutthis, is like, just like getting
stuff down on paper.
because like you and I havetalked about how important it
is, um, to just like journal andwrite.
and get thoughts down.
and I really just like that he,he does that, but also that he

(01:02:34):
like talks about how it can be astruggle.
I just thought that was

Glen (01:02:37):
Yeah.

alexi (01:02:38):
and real.
'cause like I think that's sotrue.
And it's true for an artist hissize, which is interesting too.

Glen (01:02:44):
Yeah.
Well, I mean, it's, it's, it's astruggle, but at the same time,
he was just so clear that it wasa discipline, right.
It was like, he didn't talkabout it like he was in the
middle of the dis like thestruggle.
He, he talked about like, thisis just what I do.
And I guess the part that'ssurprising to me when I hear
that is you just expect a lot ofartists, but especially an

(01:03:07):
artist sort of in his very.
Kind of laid back style ofmusic, you expect a little more
of that hippie ethos of justlike, I just write songs and I
pull them outta the universe.
Right?
And then they come together andif it works, it works.
And if it doesn't, but no, he'slike, I get up and I go to the
studio.
Not because I have an idea, butfor the discipline of writing

(01:03:31):
and recording on, you know,multiple days a week.
And he gets up and he writes ina journal every day and he does
stream of consciousness writing.
And that's the part I was gonna,I don't know if.
I don't know if you could tell.
Like it definitely changed myenergy when him and I started
talking about some of that.
And I, and he, and again, hesaid a couple things that really

(01:03:53):
caught me.
And I think there's even once inthe conversation where I was
just like, oh man, that's goodbecause, it just really impacted
me, I think, because just whereI'm at, I've felt like I've been
using the phrase with everybody,I need to start closing some
tabs in my head.
Like I just have too many tabsopen in my head.
And.
Yeah, and I've heard a lot ofpeople talk about the discipline

(01:04:17):
of writing before, and I'mterrible at any version of those
disciplines.
I always have been.
I've just kind of rebelledagainst them and yeah, here I
was and well, I guess thesummary.
Here's the, here's the, here'sthe big point is that after him
and I recorded this episode, Istarted getting up and writing.

alexi (01:04:38):
And

Glen (01:04:38):
Uh.

alexi (01:04:39):
say is like you were talking about you doing that I
obviously have like fourjournals on my bedside table.
Um, but like you and I

Glen (01:04:49):
I know I've read them all.
I've read them all.
They're great.
It's great stuff.

alexi (01:04:53):
You're not funny.
you are not funny at allactually.
But like you and I did relateabout how hard it is to like.
have that you know what I mean?
Like,

Glen (01:05:01):
Yeah.

alexi (01:05:02):
bad for it.
Like I date all

Glen (01:05:04):
I.

alexi (01:05:04):
journal stuff and like you'll have like a good solid
three weeks where I'm justsending it every night and I'm
like, and then there's just likea eight month gap in there and
I'm like, oh, like, wow, I suck.
But I like the accountabilitythat they have, to each

Glen (01:05:20):
yeah,

alexi (01:05:20):
Like, I think

Glen (01:05:21):
yeah.

alexi (01:05:22):
really

Glen (01:05:23):
I do.
I do too.
And there was, you know, he sortof hinted towards some things
that I've been reading andlistening to that other people
who have been inspiring melately have said, and.
And it's about this idea of likenot editing yourself and in the
creative process and thenretrospectively, sort of like
what you're saying with yourjournals, like I've got years

(01:05:45):
of, if I'm being really honest,probably regrets of not
finishing creative work orambitions or goals because that
narrative in my head allowed meto edit myself and not do things
unless I thought they were.
A certain thing I wanted or theywere good enough really most of

(01:06:05):
the time, and, and that'sregretful and I'm just at a
place where I don't want that.
And then I see, and he just feltso inspiring to me in that.
He doesn't edit himself, he justlets the ideas go and he gets to
the, you know, the end of themand he, and the ones that have
something for him to go back toand, and to work on than he

(01:06:28):
works on.
But the discipline and thehabit, and, uh, this is the
point actually, I wanted to makeLex that was even bigger.
That was the part that alsoreally inspired me is that if
you really want to dig in withsomebody, you want to ask why.
Right.

alexi (01:06:45):
Yeah,

Glen (01:06:46):
it so important to you?
Like why is the disciplinethere, uh, for so long?
Like, what's the payoff?
And he was like, the payoff isthat I want to be healthy.
The, the payoff is like, doingthis helps me.
Yeah, it helps me deal with abunch of stuff.
It helps me deal with what's inmy head.
It it, it keeps me accountableto the thing that matters to me,

(01:07:08):
and then I start to apply thesame discipline to these other
habits.
And he's trying to like, eatbetter or, or be better in
different ways.
And he said, just so that I canbe present.
I think he sort of summarizedthis, these different things and
he said like, I just wanna bepresent for my life.
And, and I was like.
Yeah, who doesn't want that?
You know?

(01:07:28):
And when someone gives you sortof a, this was the road that I
actually found to get there, youcan't help but stop and think
maybe there's something on thatroad I should be paying
attention to for myself.
So, and I just love that kind ofinspiration.
And then I, I think I just feltreally, really lucky to get that
conversation, the unlucky partof the conversation.

(01:07:51):
Which I don't mind sharing hereis that I lost like the last 15
minutes of it, and I'm sounlucky and I'm so sad now.
The truth was that at least whenI listened back, it wasn't.
Like it wasn't the same stuff.
Do you know what I mean?
Like he was talking a little bitabout what's coming up and some
shows, and that he's gonna be atEdmonton at this new, like

(01:08:13):
little mini folk fest inSeptember, which is kind of
interesting.
But he's gonna be with KatClyde, who we've talked about on
the show that Grant Lawrencefirst recommended and she was a
part of writing a bunch of songson the record that he's just
finished.
And so we kind of missed a bunchof that.
So that's the unlucky part thatI was disappointed in, but.
That's life.

alexi (01:08:33):
That is life,

Glen (01:08:34):
That is life.
So,

alexi (01:08:35):
what a

Glen (01:08:35):
anyhow, good conversation.
Good way to start.
Lots of things in there.
I mean, I'm always hoping thatthere's things for people who
are still in the, the chase, youknow, who are still wanting to
either at the start of how do Ido music, how do I try to make
it a career?
You know, you wanna pullsomething from somebody who's

(01:08:57):
appears to be doing itsuccessfully.
And I think he gave us so muchto learn and to think about and
be inspired by.
So I'm super appreciative.
Yeah,

alexi (01:09:06):
Yeah, I liked it a lot.

Glen (01:09:08):
I like it.

alexi (01:09:08):
You like it?

Glen (01:09:09):
I like it a lot.
Uh, you're too young and Inever.
The movie Dumb and Dumber wasnever part of the canon of
theater that I thought I shouldteach you.
There's lots of other greatmovies I made sure you watched,
but so you wouldn't.

alexi (01:09:23):
some niche movies that no one knew and

Glen (01:09:28):
Sorry about that,

alexi (01:09:29):
I'm

Glen (01:09:30):
but, but, um, as a result, you and I got to go see the new
Wes Anderson flick, because nowwe have a shared love of Wes
Anderson.
So it paid off for me.

alexi (01:09:41):
wanna hear

Glen (01:09:41):
I,

alexi (01:09:42):
take actually about that film really quick.

Glen (01:09:44):
oh, have you been thinking about a hot take?

alexi (01:09:46):
It's not a hot take specifically about the film.
I would not go see it twice.
I loved it.
it was so good and I thoughtwatching it was so, so great,
and especially that we got to doit at Metro, but I don't think
it's a film.
I'd be like, yeah, it's stillplaying this week.
Let me go to Metro a second timeto watch it again

Glen (01:10:04):
Okay, so also help me because it's called the
Phoenician.

alexi (01:10:09):
if a ahe scheme.

Glen (01:10:11):
Scheme.
See, I keep losing the last wordand I'm like, did I hate the
movie?
'cause I can't even remember

alexi (01:10:17):
even

Glen (01:10:17):
that.
But I didn't, I didn't hate themovie at all.
Like, that's a, that's a goodhot take.
I get that.
I mean, the opening scene on theplane was so perfectly, the
color

alexi (01:10:28):
Anderson

Glen (01:10:29):
the symmetry was so perfect.
So immediately my heart waswarm.

alexi (01:10:34):
Yeah.

Glen (01:10:34):
wanna know what my hot take was?
I kind of fell asleep in themiddle.
Yeah.
And so here's my bigger hottake.
That's not the first WesAnderson movie that I fell
asleep in.
And the thinking about it islike, I love his movies so much,
but I, I've fallen asleep.

alexi (01:10:57):
His beginnings and his endings are incredibly dramatic
and really draw you in.
of his movie are just so thickwith plot and information that
sometimes it's just like, wow,this is a little bit long.

Glen (01:11:15):
You are right, and I think that's the perfect way to put
it.
I think the middle of hismovies.
The, the, he loves setting upall these different characters
and these characters, obviously.
Yeah.
And they have backstory and you,and they're, they're weaving
together right away, but youdon't know how deep that goes
until he, the payoff all thetime, but you never get the

(01:11:38):
payoff until the end, whichmeans, yeah, in the middle.
In the middle.
His chosen process is usually.
Just to keep trudging throughall of the details on everybody
and, and it puts this guy tosleep somehow.
I don't know what it is, and itmight have just been, I was
really tired and the popcorn wasreally good, so it was a later

(01:12:00):
show, but that like it was nineo'clock and so if I actually say
it was late, then people aregonna call me grandpa, so I
don't want to do that.
But, well that's our hot take.
Uh, we don't even have to do amusical hot take because we just
shared with people a differentart form.

alexi (01:12:14):
yeah.

Glen (01:12:15):
Hot take, and I'm sure we'll have a lot more hot takes
to talk about some bands that wegot to see live, after Folk
Fest.
And,

alexi (01:12:24):
Yeah.

Glen (01:12:24):
one thing I'm gonna start doing for everybody to know,
I've pulled together a, a littleseries I'm gonna do on social
media, I think of, concerts thatinspired me.
Um, that I, that I still have onmy phone.
I've recorded, obviously lots ofclips and scenes from a lot of
shows, but I, I, it's like Ipost them to my stories and then

(01:12:46):
I dump them from my phone.

alexi (01:12:47):
Yeah.

Glen (01:12:48):
Now I'm feeling maybe that isn't a very good plan because I
am lacking a lot of shows that Iwould've wanted to share a clip
from and talk about.
anyhow, the greater purpose ofit is.
I've just had a run of seeingsome great shows.
I'm just feeling re-inspired bygoing to live shows, right?
In that I think everybody needsto go watch bands play their

(01:13:11):
songs, or artists sing theirsongs in person to actually feel
them and understand them the waythat they wanted to deliver
them.
And it, if you want to reallyfeel music like you have to see.
Live music.
And I'm just gonna start,getting on that soapbox.
I, I, this is now my soapbox forthat, so I'm sorry everybody.

(01:13:33):
Not sorry, but, okay.
Okay.

alexi (01:13:36):
Okay,

Glen (01:13:36):
That's it, that's all.

alexi (01:13:37):
see you tomorrow at Folk Fest.

Glen (01:13:39):
See you tomorrow at Focused.
Thank you.

alexi (01:13:42):
or, see you on the Hill.

Glen (01:13:44):
Oh, that's what they say.
See you on the hill.
Very well done apropos.
Okay.
Thank you.
Love you.

alexi (01:13:50):
Love you.
Bye.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}ep17 Boy Golden is not the boy

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}Stuff You Should Know

Dateline NBC

New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce

All Episodes

ep17 Boy Golden is not the boy

Stuff You Should Know