ep2 Grant Lawrence is my DJ

Episode Transcript
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Glen Erickson (00:01):
The year 2000 was a big year for me.
It didn't hurt that major careerand personal transitions aligned
with the change of a century anda millennium.
I had just drained the 90s forall it had in reframing my own
musical influences andinspirations, and the velocity
of this pivotal transitional erawas immediate.
I needed something or someone tohelp fill in the path in front

(00:24):
of me.
So enter two primary figures.
First, John in the Morning,foundational DJ for KEXP in
Seattle and their earlytechnology online access, which
was awesome.
And then, shortly after, in theline of late 90's program Brave
New Waves by the publicly fundedCBC, came Radio 3.

(00:44):
A fully online formatchampioning Canadian independent
music and its anchor afternoonhost, Grant Lawrence.
In short, Grant Lawrence is anaward winning writer, musician,
broadcaster, and live eventhost.
He's the author of four bestselling books for adults, most
recently his latest number onebestseller, Return to Solitude,

(01:04):
in 2022, and his firstchildren's picture book, Bailey
the Bat and the Tangled Moose.
Following his success withbreakout 90s indie band The
Smugglers, Grant translated hisfrontman persona into endearing
host and tastemaker with Radio 3and all of the spinoffs,
including creation of some ofthe earliest podcasts.

(01:26):
And he continues his publichosting work with CBC Music
currently.
This is Almost Famous Enough.
I'm your host, Glenn Erickson,and thank you for spending your
time with us today.
This is Grant Lawrence.

Glen (01:59):
But it is what it is.
But how are you doing?
Are you how you

Grant (02:03):
I'm great.
It's great to see you, and thankyou so much for having me.

Glen (02:07):
Oh, thank you so much for taking the The time to jump on
here you know, in all the peopleI know in the industry, you have
a very unique character andhistory and story in it.
It weaves into a lot of otherpeople.
I know their story.
I've always been very interestedin it.
I think there's Lots of littleinsights and lots of little

(02:29):
things I'd love to talk with youabout, um, in the life of what
people pursue, whether it bemusic or adjacent.
Um, so I was hoping we couldjust, like, dig into some of
that stuff.

Grant (02:42):
Sure.

Glen (02:43):
of course I greatly appreciate that, you know,
you're wearing, That greatlittle flannel underneath,
which, uh, just feels

Grant (02:51):
MAC jacket.

Glen (02:52):
so Canadian.
And you've always had, suchstuff, by the way, I wore this
for you.
My, uh, my family got me this.
I love black on black.
And, uh, and so they,

Grant (03:05):
Oh, yeah, I see there's a CBC

Glen (03:08):
that's the CBC logo, black on black.
And it's

Grant (03:10):
picking it up.

Glen (03:12):
literally my favorite hoodie.
So, I had to wear it today.
so I might as well just ask youthe question right off the bat.
You've, through different eras,you've always had some iconic
fashion element, like the rubberboots when you were in a band
and then, the sweater.
And I, I get, I know thatthere's a great Canadian debate

(03:32):
on which term to call it aCowichan sweater or a siwash or,
you but you have that customsweater with the

Grant (03:39):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I, I haven't, I have thatsweater and I haven't worn it
in, in years.
It's in my office at the CBC.
Um, I remember, yeah.
Wearing that sweater.
You learn, uh, like I, I justgrew up, you know, that's the,
one of the great things, CBCfeatures we did, which I think

(03:59):
you guys.
took part in.
We, we had a feature called theCanadian Dictionary and um, the,
we learned that this country isso big and so wide that, you
know, you can grow up with acertain set of vocabulary or
vernacular, whatever in say BCwhere I grew up and Where, you

(04:22):
know, this is a Mac jacket thatI'm wearing, that sweater that
you're referring to, we grew upcalling it a Cowichan because
that's a West Coast term.
Cowichan First Nation onVancouver Island, famous for
weaving those wool sweaters.
And then we found out that inthe prairies, siwash.

(04:42):
And then I found out that in theEast, it's just called a curling
sweater.

Glen (04:48):
They just call it a curling sweater.
Oh, that's,

Grant (04:50):
They just call it a curling sweater, but it's the
same thing with, you know,cottage cabin camp, uh, another
one, you know, what you'rewearing right now, which has,
you know, I think it's anAmerican term is hoodie, but in
Saskatchewan, they call thatvery specifically a bunny

Glen (05:05):
hug.
Yeah.
Because of, because of thepouch.

Grant (05:09):
I guess

Glen (05:10):
So I grew up Saskatchewan.
So yeah, I'm familiar with thatterm.

Grant (05:13):
Yeah, but I mean, when I was a kid, those were called
kangaroo hoodies.
Uh, yeah, because of the pouch.
So there's all this different,and I love that about Canada.
And I think the, um, we did aCanadian.
Dictionary with your old band,The Wheat Pool, and I'm pretty
sure you got it.
I got you guys to tell us aboutlike the phenomenon of the grain

(05:36):
elevators across the

Glen (05:37):
Y'all, you know what?
I was, I was, you said that andI'm like, did we?
But now that you say that I doremember, my great grandfather
was a part of, it was like aunion movement essentially, kind
of what, what happened withgrain elevators.
And he was a part of, uh, aboutgetting that going.
So,

Grant (05:58):
Yeah, and now there are these, you know, these iconic
landmarks, you know, across theflatlands of our, of our country
that are somewhat endangered,but are definitely classic and,
uh, loved your band, loved the,uh, anthemic nature of your
songs, still, uh, love them.

(06:18):
And, uh, I, yeah, it's funnythat I only just thought of that
feature for the first time in along time, just as we chatted.

Glen (06:26):
Oh, that's great.
Well, I know like a funny storyfor me.
So in the work I'm doing rightnow, I have had to go to the
island a few times and, and onetime I landed in Victoria and
then rented a car to get up toNanaimo.
And so I literally went to stopfor lunch and there's like the

(06:49):
great big sign about Cowichan.
For the road sign and like rightunderneath it was an unhoused
fellow with his signs and hisparaphernalia and he was wearing
a Cowichan sweater like rightunderneath and I was like okay
I'm gonna say Grant is right andit's a Cowichan.
It's not, I grew up inSaskatchewan we called it Siwash

(07:11):
but uh it totally makes sensewhen you see it in context.
Uh, but it is a pretty greatthing about the country and Uh,
I do appreciate you saying that,about the band and your interest
that you had.
I think that's, I don't mindjumping in even right there.
Like our introduction is,probably goes all the way back

(07:35):
to 2007 2008, um, when wereleased our first record.
So I've already, I've had aninterview with Dan Mangan.
We've talked, for the podcastand Him and I share this really
similar story, but in adifferent way, where kind of at
the top of the list for us rightat that time was getting your

(07:58):
attention.
And, um, and then, so in 2008 inJanuary, I think, you released a
podcast about the ones to watchfor that year or something and
we were both on it.
So that's how we discovered, himand I, that's how we discovered
each other and each other'smusic.
And

Grant (08:15):
That's really nice.

Glen (08:17):
there we ended up crossing paths all the time across the
country, playing shows andfestivals and, and, uh, being at
conferences and

Grant (08:24):
I, I'm, I'm still really good friends with Dan.
He's, he's coming over fordinner tomorrow night with his,
with his family and his kids,and we travel with'em and we,
you know, we're, they're likepretty close family friends now.

Glen (08:39):
That's pretty great.
It's pretty great to be able tolook back and have.
Those things evolve the way theyhave and have relationships

Grant (08:46):
I mean, that, that's, that's something that I, I
really hold dearly is.

Glen (08:51):
That's

Grant (08:53):
you know, I was in a band, my own band, The
Smugglers, there's someparaphernalia behind you there,
um, or behind me rather, but,uh, you know, you can sell a
bunch of records and you can, ornot, or, and you can tour the
world or not or whatever, butwhat I really think is the most
valuable thing that I take awayfrom career is the friends, you

(09:19):
know, and the connections made.
And I know there's no money inthat, but really at the end of
the day, I value the friendshipsthat, uh, I've made through
music.
Uh, you know, I love the musicand I love having a roof over my
head and all that kind of stuff,but obviously, but the
friendship thing is just soimportant to me.

(09:41):
And I really value it a lot.
And, uh, and I have friends thatYou know, like we're, my wife,
Jill is a touring musician.
She's, I don't think this isannounced yet, but she is going
to be playing in Japan in thesummertime.
And I still have friends inJapan, Japanese musician friends

(10:03):
from when the Smugglers touredthere, you know, like 25 years
ago, still friends with them.
And my son who's 11 is reallyinto punk rock now.
And, uh, and we're going to goup to You know, Tokyo and check
out some of the punk rockculture that that's still around
in that, in that massive city.

Glen (10:23):
That's got to be pretty exciting feeling to start
sharing those experiences withyour son now.

Grant (10:30):
Oh yeah, yeah.
And I haven't just started.
I mean, he's fully entrenched.
Like he has his own band.
he has his own band called BlueJay Valley.
They have their own record out.
He's 11 years old.
Um, it's original songs that,that him and his friends write,

(10:50):
you know, is like the wholedeal, blue vinyl.
Um, and they play shows and theymake their own posters.
And so it's, it's very much likethe way I grew up with, with
Nardwar.
And the smugglers and theevaporators, but we did all this
when we were teenagers, like 18,um, doing the all ages shows and

(11:13):
the post string and the records.
And my son is doing it at avery, like, like he's doing it
at a very, very young age.
But, you know, they charge 10bucks for tickets.
They do all ages shows.
I help them out a lot.
Uh, you know, I, I kind ofhelped Josh design the posters
for shows, you know, making surelike it's readable and you know,

(11:36):
the date is really importantand, uh, you know, but nowadays
what they do, I mean, when, backwhen me and Nardwuar were
putting on all ages shows, We'dmake a poster and it would say
at the bottom tickets availableat track records capers grocery
store Harry's market whateverand now you just put a qr code
on there and all you have to doIs the kids or the parents scan

(12:01):
the code with their phone andboom you can buy tickets
Standing right there in front ofthe poster On the telephone pole
and boom you have tickets.
So uh, i'm enjoying the uh YouThe technological advances in
rock and roll show promotionthat didn't exist when I was a

(12:22):
teenager.

Glen (12:23):
Yeah, I mean, it's not like there's a difference.
Unless you think there is,you're welcome to tell me.
I don't think there's adifference in the level of
hustle required.
It's

Grant (12:32):
No, there's not.

Glen (12:34):
you had.

Grant (12:34):
about energy.

Glen (12:35):
Yeah, but before what you were describing for us, you put
all that hustle in and then youhad no idea what you were doing.
Like whether it would work, youknow what I mean?
Like it was just a poster on atelephone pole or or if you got
lucky up in the local recordstore, right?
but but

Grant (12:55):
Well, all those old school methods still work.
Um, the biggest discovery thatI've made, uh, and it's a happy
discovery and, uh, you know, I,I can't believe it.
Um, it's just simple mathematicsis when you're a kid band.
Uh, people tend to buy ticketsin groups of four because of

(13:20):
families, you know, so like thekid points at a poster, I want
to go to that.
And then they're like, okay,well then the sibling goes and
the parents go.
And so they buy tickets four ata time, as opposed to when we
would sell tickets to gigs,we're often selling, you know,
one ticket at a time or twotickets at a time or three, if

(13:41):
we're lucky.
So there are shows.
Sell out quickly because they'rethe tickets are selling in
multiples of four And I I wassaying the nar I was telling
Nardwar to this telling Nardwarthis i'm like we started way too
late We were selling tickets toindividuals.
We should have been sellingtickets to families But uh that
has been a revelation for me Butall the old methods, you know,

(14:06):
making a paper poster, puttingit up, all that still works.
I swear to it, you know, in myshows still too, like I always
insist, um, I do, uh, a touringshow is kind of like my
retirement project.
I do my own touring show nowthat isn't very rock and roll.
It's, um, it's called GrantLawrence and Friends, an evening

(14:30):
of stories and songs.
And it's, Kind of inspired bythe Vinyl Cafe.
So I tell stories from my booksand, uh, and podcasts and stuff
like that.
And then, um, my favoritemusicians, BC area musicians,
musicians will play songs oftenacoustically.
or solo between my stories andwe still do old school, you

(14:54):
know, of course there's Facebookand of course there's Instagram
and all those annoying things,but we still poster towns.
We still put up posters in thelocal cafes.
We still put up posters at thecommunity center.
We still put up posters onpoles.
And if it's a tour, we alwaystry to have someone on the
ground in that city.

(15:16):
Or town some, we do a lot oftours to small towns and islands
in BC.
And I always get, I always say,Hey, could you please put up
some posters at the cafe or, youknow, the library or whatever
it's still matters.
That on the street publicitystill matters and works.
It's not all online yet.

Glen (15:36):
Yeah.
I mean, this is great.
This is what I knew would be funis that already in like 10
minutes, we've jumped aroundyour entire

Grant (15:44):
We jumped around a lot.

Glen (15:46):
from the very back to the front to stuff, which is exactly

Grant (15:49):
know if you, I don't know if you, you, you probably have
like an order you want to go in.
So

Glen (15:53):
Well, no, I mean, I,

Grant (15:55):
me

Glen (15:55):
No, I, I, you've done this for a lot of years, you know,
you, you try to prepare if youmake sure that you don't get
lost if you're supposed toanchor something, that's all.
But, but when I was preparing,uh, I always look for what sort
of stands off the page to me.
So what stood off the page to mewas like, Essentially, we're

(16:18):
gonna, if we're gonna talk likea timeline, we're talking like
the Grant Lawrence era's tour,like, and so tell me if I'm
right, but it feels like yourband and the Smugglers was, that
basically took up your 20s, andthen you

Grant (16:34):
and

Glen (16:35):
then you transitioned over, and there's overlap, don't
get me wrong, but you know, thenyou transition over to CBC
radio, which eats up most ofyour 30s, and you release.
You write your first book andpublish it in 2010, and you're
basically ushering in yourforties.
So in some ways,

Grant (16:55):
it right.

Glen (16:56):
of distinct eras, but a lot of overlap.
And I guess for me, I'minterested in the overlap and
how somebody moves through thebusiness, so to speak.
But, um,

Grant (17:10):
Yeah, I mean, a lot of it, a lot of it is by necessity.
You know, like, um, uh, byfinancial necessity.
I mean, Smugglers, I alwaysthought I was going to be, I
knew I was going to be in theentertainment industry in some
way, shape, or form from a very,very early age, but I thought I
was going to be, I was, my dadreally got me into movies, old

(17:32):
Hollywood classic films, and Ithought I was going to either be
an actor, or a director or awriter for films.
And then in high school, Rockand roll took over in a big way.
Uh, you know, got really, reallyinto music.
Very, very fortunate.
You know, I've told this storybefore, but very fortunate to

(17:53):
have Nardwar be a couple ofyears up on me in high school
and him being a major leader.
And our, our high school wassupposed to be this athletic
high school, but we had allsorts of great bands.
Uh, Spirit of the West went toour high school.
Barney Bentall went to our highschool.
And then more in our era, uh,Uh, we had Nardwar and the
Evaporators and bands like SheStole My Beer and Nardwar, um,

(18:18):
started, the real pivotal thingwas he started booking, uh, live
bands.
We, we would have canned DJs andhe said, no, there's so many
amazing bands.
In downtown Vancouver right now,we got to bring them out to our
suburban high school.
So he started booking the Grapesof Wrath and DOA and the Enigmas

(18:40):
and, and Art Bergman and Skaboomand all sorts of different
genres, but all alternative.
And that was hugely influentialfor myself and basically a
generation of kids.
There's so many musicians thatcame out of that school.
And so the Smugglers formed outof that.

(19:02):
And that was when we were, youknow, we formed when we were
about 16, 17 years old.
And that just ruled my life, asyou say, like in my late teens
and all of my 20s.

Glen (19:14):
Did you think that that was it?
Like that was gonna be thething?

Grant (19:17):
Yeah, I thought that was, that was it.
I'm like, okay, it's music.
This is it.
Um, I'm going to be in this bandforever.
Uh, because we really did have alot of longevity and we had a
lot of success.
We were on Mint Records inCanada.
Our records, you know, we, weput out a string of records.
Some of them are up here on thewall.
All those records would go tonumber one.

(19:39):
Every single one of them wouldgo to number one on campus radio
in Canada, like one after theother, after the other, after
the other.
Now that does not really add upto, you know, uh, financial
success, but we were, we didwell, you know, we, we would do
well in, in the clubs, which wewere totally happy with.
We were, We were absolutely 100percent satisfied with a three,

(20:03):
a full 300 person club, uh,because we believed that if once
you started getting bigger thanthat, you started losing the,
the, the magic of compression.
So I, I call it rock and rollcompression and the perfect, in
my opinion, the perfect, and theBeatles knew this too.
Like when they played smallplaces like, um, the, the cavern

(20:23):
club.
In Liverpool or the Rathskellerin, in Hamburg, they were long
and they were narrow and theyhad low ceilings.
And that's what keeps thecompression in and makes it
sound really, really good.
And so when we would walk into Aclub that was designed like

(20:44):
that.
We go, Oh, this is going to be agreat show.
It's going to be a sweat box.
It's going to be awesome.
But when we'd walk into someplace like in we'd play like an
air airport hanger in, in Italyor something like that.
And the ceiling is way, way upand it's a hundred feet long.
It's like playing.
It's like a football field.
We go, Oh man.
This is going to sound terrible.
This is going to be a bad show.

(21:05):
So that I'm sort of going off ona tangent, but that, uh, that
was basically what I thought Iwas going to do.
Then in the, I was working atMint Records as my day job
between touring, uh, ourCanadian label.
And I was working a lot withLookout Records in Berkeley,
California, who put out our, ourAmerican, you know, our, the,

(21:28):
they put out the Americanversions of our records and
everything was going great.
And then, uh, there was a crash.
There was a, uh, an industrycrash.
Around 1998 and a lot of peopledon't remember this crash, but
it was kind of like a boom bustecho.

(21:49):
So the boom was like Nirvana andGreen Day in the early 90s.
That was kind of like.
Almost like our version of theRolling Stones and the Beatles
in North America, you know, likegrunge and punk Came roaring
back alternative Uh in the early90s, that was the boom and then

(22:10):
there was the inevitable bust.
Uh, everyone kind ofoverextended themselves, putting
out too many records.
Uh, distributors wereoverextending their credit
lines.
And then the big, the big partof the crash in Canada was that
cargo distribution went bankruptand they held a ton of, uh, of

(22:35):
mint records and, and they owedall sorts of labels, all sorts
of money and they couldn't payit.
And so that was a extremelydevastating for mint.
And all of a sudden they lookedat me because the two owners
looked at me and said, I don'tknow, man, I was the publicist
there.
I don't know if we were going tobe able to pay you.
How do you feel aboutvolunteering?

(22:57):
And I'm like, well, I got to paymy rent too.
So I started looking for anotherjob in the late nineties.
And I had a friend, CBC, who dida show called Real Time.
And she said, yeah, you might beable to, we might have a
researcher's job for you.
Which was the lowest rung on theCBC ladder.

(23:17):
And, uh, she got me in, in 98,as a researcher at the CBC.
And I worked for a show calledRadio Sonic, with two of my
broadcasting heroes, DavidWisdom and Leora Kornfeld.
They were the hosts.
My job was to you know, researchthe rheostatics, they're coming
in, you know, what are we goingto talk about?

(23:38):
And all those bands of that era,of the late 90s in Canada.
And then, uh, I just stuck.
And I went from, things movedreally quickly.
I, I became a host of the LateNight Overnight show in, in
around 2000.
And then by 2001, I, both DavidWisdom and Leora Kornfeld,

(24:02):
somewhat quickly moved on.
And I became the host of thisshow called Radio Sonic, which
was Saturday night, primetimelive across Canada.
And I remember fatefully myfirst show, uh, the radio season
started in September and go tobasically June and very much

(24:25):
like the school year.
And, uh, my first ever RadioSonic broadcast was the Saturday
after the school year.
the Saturday immediatelyfollowing 9 11.
Um, so

Glen (24:39):
that.
Like,

Grant (24:39):
yeah, 9 11 was, was on a Tuesday.
September 11th, 2001.
And my first primetime hostingslot was on that Saturday,
whatever that would be, youknow, a few days later, four,
four days later.
And, uh, I remember beingcompletely nervous about it and,

(25:03):
uh, very, I'm like, how am Isupposed to do this?
You know, the world is in shock.
The world is in mourning.
most of the world anyway.
And, uh, I didn't know what todo.
I thought people were going tostart reading into every single
song and every single lyric anda really sage producer.
Who's no longer with us.
Susan Engelbert said, you knowwhat?

(25:26):
Just entertain.
People just need a break.
Just music is therapy.
Just play the music, be yourselfand provide people with music.
the break, the entertainment.
And that was excellent advice.
And it is really the role of theentertainer.

(25:48):
And that stuck with me for mywhole life.
It's the role of the entertainerto this day.
You know, we are, we are thetherapy.
We are the court jesters.
We are the, you know, theminstrels.
We, we provide the break.
We provide the laugh.
It's entertainment.
And so that's what I have alwaysbelieved.

(26:09):
And I thank that producer forgiving me that advice.
So that's how I transitionedinto CBC and you know, I've,
I've now been there.
I mean, 98 to 2024 that's, whatis that 20, 20, yeah, 26 years.

Glen (26:29):
half your life Grant

Grant (26:30):
Yeah, and, and now these days I host the CBC Music Top
20, which is the most mainstreamthing I've ever done in my
entire life.
You know, like playing songs byBeyonce and Chappell Roan and,
and, you know, uh, all sorts ofthe cure have a new comeback
album out right now.
And so I'm talking about allthese artists that I'm like,

(26:51):
man, I'm used to talking about,you know, The Wheat Pool and The
Weakerthans and Joel Plaskett.
And now I'm talking aboutBeyonce.

Glen (26:59):
Yeah.
So I'm interested in.
like your takeaways in your, atthis stage of your life, looking
back on that, your twenties erain the band, cause you
identified something I hadwanted to ask you about as well,
which is just the explosion ofindie music.
I feel like, and I, this is whyI really like talking to you

(27:20):
about this, cause you have sucha great observation on scenes
and the music industry.
I feel like Canada had like two,kind of explosions of indie and
the one in the 90s and then theearly 2000s with the Arcade Fire
and

Grant (27:34):
yeah, you got it.
Like, so, so basically goingback to that boom bust echo
theory, uh, in the nineties,there was the boom and it all
goes in waves, right?
So in the early nineties, therewas that boom, then there was
the bust and then there was theecho.
What is the echo?
Well, the low point was the latenineties, but out of ashes grow

(27:55):
sprouts.
Right.
And so what we saw.
There was a couple of down yearsin those, those late nineties,
but what we saw, you know, thisrecord right behind me, uh, The
Weakerthans, Left in Leaving,all time classic.
It's their second album and itcame out in the year 2000.
So in the year 2000,

Glen (28:14):
hmm

Grant (28:16):
bubbling of the echo.
And then, uh, we had the NewPornographers, uh, who, who were
a bunch of sort of middlingmusicians in the Vancouver
scene.
Uh, that, that we're having sortof so, so success in a bunch of
different bands all cometogether and become greater than
the sum of their parts andexplode into this bombastic, you

(28:38):
know, kind of Fleetwood Macthrough a distortion pedal
bliss, and that record came outin 2000 as well.
And, and those records were thefoundation of the next major
boom, which May never bereplicated of Canadian

(28:58):
independent music in the earlyto mid 2000s, where you had some
of the biggest exports on thealternative level that we've
ever had, you know, the classicstory.
of the Rheostatics or theTragically Hip as they were not
able to break in the States.
Well, in the early to mid 2000s,all of a sudden we see bands

(29:20):
like Hot Hot Heat on sub popbreaking internationally, uh,
England, and, and the UnitedStates.
We, of course, had, uh, another,uh, vict, uh, Victoria band,
Wolf Parade, uh, exploding, andthen Montreal becoming, you
know, the new Seattle, and AndArcade Fire and Stars and then
Toronto blowing up with BrokenSocial Scene and the Hidden

(29:42):
Cameras and Metric and DeathFrom Above and the, the, the one
thing that all these bands hadin common is that they were
breaking internationally.
So they were, they were becominglike the unicorns, whatever.
They were like the it band ofSouth by Southwest.
Or they were breaking in Europeor they were breaking in Japan.

(30:04):
And, and really the, the countrythat, that, that is always the
one that, that a lot ofmusicians want to crack is the
United States.
And every single band that Ijust mentioned, did and still do
phenomenally in, in the UnitedStates.
I mean, stars just did a soldout us tour for the 20th

(30:27):
anniversary of set yourself onfire, you know, sold out in New
York, sold out in San Francisco.
This is amazing, right?
20 years later.
And so that was that major,major period.
Feist was right in there aswell.
And, you know, these, a lot ofthese careers are still.

(30:49):
Writing that period of successin from 20 years ago and right
in the thick of all of that, uh,by.
by pure luck slash stroke ofgenius slash whatever you call
it was the cbc radio 3 podcastwhich was the first ever

(31:09):
original podcast from the cbccreated by my visionary boss
steve pratt i had nothing to dowith it but this you know just
talking into a microphone andtalking about the songs i got i
wasn't even pegged as theoriginal host they they had a
host in there that didn't clickthey brought me in And I, this
was when it was all like, allthis music was just coming from

(31:31):
everywhere, all over Canada, youknow, every single week there
was like Deadly Snakes, Cuff theDuke, you know, The Wheat Pool,
Dan Mangan, Said the Whale, TwoHours Traffic.
It was like nonstop Wintersleepand it was all good.
You know, Joel Plaskett breakingout.
I mean, it was, it was from allIt was from all over the country

(31:52):
and it was all good and hip hopwas having a moment too at that
time.
Really great independent hip hopout of places like Brandon,
Manitoba and Halifax, you know,not Toronto.
Uh, I mean, there was alwaysgreat stuff coming from Toronto,
but it was so interesting to seethis.
this weird hip hop scene risingout of out of Brandon and

(32:13):
Winnipeg, the Peanuts and CornCrew with McEnroe and Bird of
Prey and all those guys.
And Halifax, you know,Classified.
I mean, you know, a hero to manyto this day.
So that was very, very exciting.
And the podcast was able toprovide a soundtrack to that
revolution of Canadian music.
And so, right time, right place.

(32:36):
And that was I don't know, likethat, that scene did have its
own kind of bust, maybe, uh, inmy opinion, around maybe around
10, 8 to 10 years later when,uh, Indie rock really started
moving into kind of more of a,It was still popular like, uh,

(32:59):
you know, I don't want to throwhim under the bus, but you know,
that sort of Mac DeMarco styleof a little lighter, a little
more electronic, a little moreyachty.
And, uh, but because Mac DeMarcodid incredibly well too.
Um, but.
You know, being from Canada,Tegan and Sarah, another example
of a real breakout from thatperiod.

(33:21):
I mean, they're celebrating the20th anniversary of So Jealous
right now, which was theirbreakout record with Walking
with a Ghost and all that on itthat The White Stripes covered.
So it was a very, very good timeto be a Canadian band.
We were very, very red hotexports.

(33:41):
Arguably, for the first timesince, I don't know, the Guess
Who and Neil Young.

Glen (33:47):
Well, that's how it got

Grant (33:47):
of just one or Yeah, Guess Who, Neil Young, Joni
Mitchell, that era, the band.
But they often didn't reallyidentify that strongly.
I mean, I guess the Guess Whodid.
But, um, you know, they often,Gordon Lightfoot, they often
moved to the States.
I guess.
didn't come back.

(34:08):
Uh, a lot of them are back now,but a lot of the musicians that
I just mentioned are stillliving in Canada, still living
in Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto,Halifax.
And

Glen (34:20):
Well, that boom was pretty like for me, like that was
extremely formative.
Uh, I mean, there were

Grant (34:26):
I mean, you were part of it.

Glen (34:27):
well, even prior to that though, I think it was, I guess
I'll say it was probably thebeacon for me in my desires,
right?
That like, even prior todiscovering radio three, I had
discovered brave new waves,right?
Which

Grant (34:43):
Right.
Yeah.
I mean, Brave New Ways was hugein the 80s and 90s for a
generation

Glen (34:49):
and it was the like the indie version of video hits for
me to see

Grant (34:53):
mean, it was the first place I heard, you know, yeah,
first place I heard No Means No,first place I heard Shadowy Men
on a Shadowy Planet, you know,those, those types of bands and
yeah, Radio 3 kind of becamelike the daylight version of
that.
Now, some hardcore Brave NewWaves fans would argue that, but

(35:15):
I think we took it, we took whatBrave New Waves did late at
night.
And we brought it to thedaylight and we brought it to a
much, much, much largeraudience.
Uh, that was global.
And, I mean, the podcast becameso global that we put up a huge
map on the wall at CBC Radio 3.

(35:39):
And, and we got a, we used toget just a ton of mail for that
show.
And we would get mail from farflung Canadians all over the
world.
And every time we got a letterfrom someplace, we'd put a pin
in the map.
And within a couple of years,that, that map was just had
little pins all over it.
It was

Glen (35:58):
Well,

Grant (35:58):
very, very exciting

Glen (36:00):
Isn't that a delicious irony that it was so
groundbreaking?
To me when I look back right nowso groundbreaking as this online
format delivery it was likenobody else hardly anyone was
using the word podcast for

Grant (36:15):
No, I didn't know what the hell it was.
And I thought it was a

Glen (36:18):
but here you're getting like physical mail still
delivered to you by

Grant (36:23):
Oh, no, that, that was, I'm talking to email.

Glen (36:25):
Oh, okay.

Grant (36:26):
I mean, there was some physical mail, but it was, it
was like primarily email.

Glen (36:30):
Well, I mean, I'm curious what your perspective in the
middle of that time was becauseyeah, there's this incredible
boom in the music communityhappening and just around the
world globally.
And we had this unique flavorthat we were delivering, which I
felt really exciting.
So as an aspiring musician, Ihad all the inspiration in front

(36:51):
of me that I needed, right?
Of people that were in, that Icould relate to, right?
Carving a path for me, peoplefrom our own neighborhoods.
And But this to do this showthat was online and then you
created this community thatwould like log in while you were
live and basically it was like achat forum.

(37:14):
I try to explain this to peoplenow.
I said like it was a chat forumwhen nobody was really using
chat forums commonly.

Grant (37:21):
and amazingly enough, it was polite and respectful.

Glen (37:25):
it would open when your show opened, right?
And then people would talk and Iremember logging in, there'd be
650, 850, a thousand peopleonline at any given time.
Um, I'm just curious, you know,somebody had to be pretty
visionary at CBC with all of

Grant (37:45):
Steve Pratt.

Glen (37:46):
Is it all Steve Pratt?
And,

Grant (37:48):
I mean, I

Glen (37:48):
have the license from a corporation.

Grant (37:51):
I, I, I, I, we had an amazing team of developers as
well.
You know, I think of JohnPalazzi, who, who ran that blog.
And I think of Phil Rabin, whowas very creative Scott mock.
There was a lot of extremelyNicole Goodman, a lot of
extremely creative people behindthe scenes.
Who are creating the engines.

(38:11):
So what you're referring to hereis when, you know, the podcast
was, it was a hit and it spawnedother podcasts like the R3 Top
30 and Lisa Christensen had atalk podcast called Appetite for
Distraction.
And then what we moved into waswhen satellite radio came along,
uh, CBC Radio 3 got its ownchannel.

(38:33):
And so we were simultaneouslybroadcasting live on Sirius Uh,
so that's North America and thenalso just live on, on the web.
And so we would be live, wewould have a live blog post
going where I would put up sometopic for the day and some
article I'd write every single,every single morning I'd write

(38:57):
some little think piece and thenput it up there.
And then as you say, people willget into the comments and they
would literally have a livechat.
In the comments, uh, throughoutthe entire show and this would
go into Lisa's show and it wouldgo into Craig's show and all the
other shows, but it was, I wasright in the middle of the day.

(39:17):
And so people could just like,you know, keep the wind, the
radio three window, like, justlike I'm doing now with my ratty
old headphones.
I see here.
Um, they can, They would be atwork and they'd be on a computer
just like we are now and they'dbe doing their work, but one of
the windows would be Radio 3, sothey'd be listening to the show,
and then if something struckthem, they'd just close the

(39:39):
window of their work, go to theRadio 3, and put in a comment,
uh, you know, just to be part ofthe discussion.
Now we had, uh, like a, a frontof house.
Like diehard group of fans thatwould be there every single day.
I'm still friends with a wholebunch of them.
There's a Facebook group stilldedicated to it where a lot of
them communicate and, um, and Iwould liken that experience in

(40:05):
my life, that live period onradio three to the television
show cheers, where I was like,you know, Sam or Woody or
whatever the bartender and thepeople.
The characters that would sitaround the bar were like our
regulars on Radio 3, like Cliffand Norm, whatever, Frasier.

(40:27):
And then the people that youwould see that never got any
lines, that, that they werefilling the bar and the seats
around, The, you know, basicallythe, the extras on the show.
Well, those were kind of ourbackground listeners.
So we had the, you know, the,the, the people that, that
listened but didn't engage.

(40:48):
So we had, and there were farmore of them than there were the
front of house people.
And so we had this very, very,very active audience where
essentially almost characterswould be created.
Um, Like famous Lee Howard downin Sacramento, California, uh,
or Christine McAvoy in Vancouveror, you know, uh, Rebby out in

(41:09):
St.
John's Newfoundland.

Glen (41:10):
Who's the guy?

Grant (41:11):
become like,

Glen (41:12):
it Winnipeg or Brandon the guy the

Grant (41:14):
Oh yeah.
There are people

Glen (41:15):
I forget that

Grant (41:16):
who Cody, Cody Labrow.
Yeah.
Still friends with him too.
And, um, and they all had theirlittle blog names and
everything.
And, uh, But they created anetwork of friendships and that,
again, lasts to this day.
They, they started online andthey moved into, quote, real
life or whatever you want tocall it.

(41:37):
And that was, and what formedwas a community, a community
with the central, love ofCanadian music, music in
general.
And, uh, that was a very, veryspecial time.
A lot of people look, a lot ofpeople that were involved look
back on it as a magical time.
And I do as well.

(41:59):
I mean, there were times where,like, I did that show Monday to
Friday, live, every day.
And sometimes I'd be like, Ohman, it's the same people day
in, day out.
But I, by the time we werewrapping up that show, because
all things end, and I believe Idid the last live broadcast,
maybe 2017, something like that,it was like a, it was like a sob

(42:22):
fest.
Like everyone was crying.
I was crying.
The listeners were crying.
The musicians that we had onspecial guests were crying.
It was just, it was, we, we,Kind of realized it was the end
of an era and that was when CBCRadio 3 sort of morphed into the
larger more mainstream platformof CBC music which still exists

(42:44):
to this day Which is what I'minvolved in now.
I now identify as You know GrantLawrence from CBC music But yeah
that that was an emotional timeand I think when it did end
that's when you realize oh, thisis actually You incredibly
special and a real honour.
A lot of the hosts felt thisway.

(43:07):
It was such an honour to be ableto have that platform, to rock
out, you know, to Matt Mays, orCadence Weapon, or whatever,
full volume in our littlestudio, and have guests come in
all day long, musicians on tour,and then have our audience be in
constant conversation.
So it was, it was just fluidity.

(43:27):
It was just fluidity.

Glen (43:29):
Well,

Grant (43:30):
You know, emails, blog comments, phone calls.
We did it all on that show andit was a

Glen (43:35):
and I think the community that was built and the way you
sort of characterized it.
There is pretty key because Ithink I'm not really a historian
type, but I always try to drawthreads.
To the present, um, I mean, if Iwere to earmark one thing, I
think it's interesting that incommercial radio right now, at
least the ones I see aroundhere, they're all thematically,

(44:00):
the ones that are succeeding,the hosts are creating a program
and they start a conversation.
I'm using air quotes for anyonewho's

Grant (44:08):
Yeah.
Yeah, because sometimes itsounds

Glen (44:10):
But it's just like what you described was 25 years ago,
20 years ago doing exactly thatwith your show online.
You would just go online and youwould find a topic.
You would let a group gatheraround that topic or around what
was happening in the music.
I

Grant (44:26):
Yeah.
And you know, what's, what'sinteresting, Glen is, is a lot
of the ideas, I don't know ifI've ever told anyone this,
except for maybe producers thata lot of the ideas that I, uh,
employed or whatever, or, orthat I used on radio three, I
got from sports radio.

(44:48):
You know, like poll, pollquestion of the day, you know,
uh, you know, cause sports radiois filled with all these little
segments here and there.
And I got so, because you know,I'm a, I'm a big, big hockey
fan.
And so I would listen to sportstalk radio.
And I got so many ideas andpeople didn't even realize that

(45:12):
they were, that these ideas werebasically being poached from
sports radio and then applied tomusic, but it worked just as
well.

Glen (45:20):
That's pretty great.
Like, I, I love talking aboutthat community from the
perspective you have.
Like, my perspective, because I,like you identified earlier, was
part of a band.
I was the one doing most orsometimes all of the dirty grunt
work of trying to get attentionand find ways.
Like, so, like I said earlier,Dan and I both felt like we were

(45:44):
trying to get your attention atone point.
Like, one way was Uh, our bandplayed in a beer league here, so
I got us to go to the ExclaimCup because I knew that you'd be
there.
And, and a couple other people,but I'm like, I want to talk to
them in that context and build arelationship.
Or, when we released our secondrecord, to the chagrin of, uh,

(46:05):
Ken Beattie, wonderfulpublicist, Killbeat, um, I was
going to Vancouver to pick upthe physical copies, and I
sussed out whether you wouldhave me on the air and you did
like pretty spur of the moment.
And of course, Ken was like,that doesn't fit the publicity
plan, uh, to go get it playedalready ahead of the advance.

(46:26):
But I'm like, I don't care.
Like I need this time and I needthis conversation.
Um,

Grant (46:33):
yeah.
Ken's great.
I love him.
He, basically, I consider him mypublicist, too, for my books and
stuff like that.
Um, but, you know, I think withyour band, I was just really
interested in the Canadiana ofthe name.
You know, like, you hooked mewith your band name, which, um,
you know, because I was alwaysbeing, you know, at the CBC,
we're always on the lookout, um,for better or for worse, of

(46:56):
anything

Glen (46:57):
content.
Yeah.

Grant (46:59):
Strikes as Canadiana because that way we can, you
know, reflect ourselves back Wecan reflect Canada back on to
the listeners and the listenersare into it So yeah that it
wasn't wasn't to eat wasn't toohard to hook me with you guys
Dan.
It was harder because You know,there's only one band called The

(47:20):
Wheat Pool But Dan Mangan,there's a there was you know at
the time You bands were reallywhat was hot and singer
songwriters, singer songwritersdime a dozen, you know, like,
what is this guy Hayden?
Like, who does he think he is?
Like, this curly haired, who ishe?

(47:42):
Seth Rogen?
Like, what is this guy?
And, uh, what's his thing?
And I don't know if he told you,did he tell you the, the story
of, uh, when I first heard Dan?

Glen (47:55):
No, I I don't think he did.
No.

Grant (47:57):
Okay.
Well, this is a, this is a, uh,this story has been like been in
like spin magazine and stuff.
And I think.
Dan's pretty sick of it.
But I used to host a reallyinfamous kind of musician's
Christmas party every year at myapartment down on Beach Avenue
in the West End.
And it would just, it would bean apartment, but it would be

(48:19):
packed with everyone from themusic scene.
And I would get a couple ofbands to play acoustically, like
beside the Christmas tree.
And one year Said the Whale didit.
And so I'd quiet everyone down,quiet the 120 people jammed in
there.
And I'd say, okay, here's Saidthe Whale.
And they would play like threesongs or something like that.

(48:41):
And then.
And that was it.
And then the party would rage.
And then, I remember this oneyear, Said the Whale played
three songs acoustically.
And then the party starts rockinFully.
Because, you know, after thelive performance, it just sort
of ramps up with music, anddancing, and drinking, and
everything else.
And Tyler Bancroft, still areally good friend, came up to

(49:04):
me and said, Hey, there's a guyhere.
musician and I think you shouldlet him play.
I'm like, let him play.
What do you do?
What are you talking about?
He goes, I think you should lethim play the party right now.
I'm like, are you nuts?
The party is reaching.
It's like apex of chaos.

(49:25):
Like the last thing I'm going tohave is some, you know,
guitarists like the scene fromanimal house where, uh, Belushi
smashes the acoustic guitar overthe singer songwriter's head.
You know, like my Love gave me aflower that had just That's what
I like envisioned was was gonnahappen and tyler was like trust

(49:49):
me This guy's name is DanMangan.
I looked over at him, I'm like,he looks like a, like a teddy
bear or something.
He's gonna be eaten alive.
And, and you know, like therewere punks there and you know,
SERS and, but Tyler, which hesays to me a lot to this day,
said, just trust me.

(50:10):
Trust me on this one.
So I'm like, oh my God, this isgoing against all my instincts,
but all right, fine.
So Dan gets out his, veryeagerly, gets out his acoustic
guitar.
I'm just like rolling my eyes,shaking my head.
And he goes up, and To theChristmas tree in the living

(50:31):
room and I quiet managed toquiet everyone down I had to do
the wedding trick.
I got like a fork and awineglass and that has a
Frequency that cuts aboveconversation that actually
really works.
So everyone quieted down.
I said, hey, you know, I knowyou're all having a great time
I'm just gonna interrupt thatgood time by Introducing this
singer songwriter who I've neverheard of but his name is Dan

(50:54):
Mangan and Dan Mangan Floor isyours for a couple songs.
So he did his first song and hehad this like, as you know, he's
got this, like, he doesn't useit all that much.
I guess he still does time, buthe has his baritone and he, what
he did was from playing so manyopen my thankless open mics and

(51:15):
cafes and et cetera, he haddeveloped this, this vocal
baritone style.
Well, just like the wine glass,but the baritone style could cut
through conversation and attractattention.
And he did it at this party andeveryone shut up.
And I'm like, Oh my God.

(51:35):
So he did one song, uh, Tina'sglorious comeback or something
like that.
And then he followed up withrobots.
And I swear to God, I have, Iwas stunned.
Uh, he not only played the song,but, and got this, this, this

(51:56):
roaring party to pin dropsilence, but he got everyone in
the party singing along.
Robots need love too.
They want to be loved by you.
And the whole apartment is,they'd never heard the song
before.
No, one's ever heard the songbefore the whole apartment is

(52:18):
singing the song.
I'm looking around.
I look at Nardwar, Nardwar looksat me and we're like, who the,
who is this guy?
And it was an incredible moment.
And it was pivotal for Danbecause it was all sorts of
Vancouver industry movers andshakers in that room.
And all of a sudden, like, youknow, the guy who booked the

(52:40):
anthem singers for the VancouverCanucks was at the party.
And within a month, Dan wassinging the anthem.
for the Vancouver Canucks.
And so it was, he, Dan was very,very, very smart, opportunistic
guy.
And, uh, that was myintroduction to Dan

Glen (53:03):
Well, now that you tell it, he did tell me that story,
but a very, very short versionof it that just was about how
Tyler advocated for him and youresisted.
But,

Grant (53:14):
did.
And so there's, see,

Glen (53:16):
a great, yeah, that's a great perspective.
I, I, like one of the things,like when we're talking about.
This incredible thing thathappened with this online
community.
Um, Dan and I both sort ofshared was the way we, we put
our attention on that.
Like I literally like The WheatPool for me, right?

(53:37):
Like I, I learned later.
that if I really wanted a lot ofmoney and more success, I
probably should have gone afteran older and a different
demographic.
But the indie crowd meant somuch to me.
I spent all my energy.
So I would log in.
You probably don't evenremember.
Sometimes I would call in andtry to be the one to answer your

(53:58):
trivia prize.
And I even was successful acouple of times, but anything
because you were always sogracious as to be willing to
like Put a plug in for like, Ilike your band, blah, blah,
blah.
But then we just do the bit.
And, but I would go online and Iwas like, why don't I just start
interacting with these people?

(54:19):
Like, there's no pretension of,of, um, cooler than that as a
band.
I'm like, these are the people Iwant to know.
And, and as a result.
We started going across Canadaand I wanted to play all the
classic venues, right?
I wanted to play the railway andI want to play the sidetrack
here in Edmonton.
I want to play the Dakota Tavernin, in Toronto.
So I wanted to play these iconicvenues.

(54:41):
And the people that came andbrought friends that I didn't
know on those first tours wereall Radio 3 people, right?
They, they would come up andidentify themselves.

Grant (54:51):
Or they would often be

Glen (54:52):
Or wearing some version of something they had got or won a

Grant (54:55):
a scarf

Glen (54:56):
and

Grant (54:57):
a t

Glen (54:57):
but.
Um, I mean, the impact, I thinkit's great that you started this
by talking about how you'restill like your friends with Dan
to this day and your families dostuff.
And the most important thing toyou is friends.
I mean, the impact of thatcommunity, I don't know if you
recall, well, you must recallthis.
It was pretty, but my side ofthis story is after the band,

(55:19):
our brand broke up in 2012.
Uh, I went to North byNortheast.
that like three months later inJune, maybe two months later
from when we broke up.
It was like still really raw forme, but,

Grant (55:33):
hmm.

Glen (55:34):
uh, my friend who's an artist now in Toronto, uh,
Vancouver, originally Adaline,uh, Shawna, um, we were hanging
out and she's like, you know theradio three years have a picnic
at this thing every year youshould go.
And I resisted because I feltThis weird, I don't know, shame
or not shame or embarrassment,but the feeling of like, it's

(55:56):
hard for me to go and talk andthe band isn't together anymore.
And I'm going to have to answerthat question 50 times.
And I was sort of just feelingtoo raw or I thought I was
feeling too raw to do it.
Anyhow, we show up at the picnicand you probably remember this.
So you were there.
Um, You were tapped to do thissort of faux wedding that you

(56:20):
were

Grant (56:20):
Oh, yeah.
That wasn't a faux wedding.
That was a real

Glen (56:23):
Was that the, I thought they did the official papery
stuff

Grant (56:26):
No, that was a real

Glen (56:27):
Oh, that was the real one.
Okay.
Well, there you go.

Grant (56:29):
was real.
They got

Glen (56:30):
these radio three years, yeah.
Who met on your show in thecomment section.
Um, we would go through, when wego through Windsor, he would
come and see us all the time andbring us

Grant (56:43):
yeah.
He's from Dearborn, Michigan.
Russ Gordon.

Glen (56:45):
And, uh, he's an absolute beauty and Kath is an absolute
beauty.
And, and they're gonna do thesevows with you officiating.

Grant (56:55):
Yeah, I didn't officiate.
I was like a witness orsomething.
Um, I'm trying to remember.
There was, there was anofficiant

Glen (57:04):
okay.

Grant (57:06):
uh, I think I can remember his blog name.
It was X Canuck.

Glen (57:10):
Oh, that's, yeah.
So, yeah.
He's a good friend of

Grant (57:13):
he, he, he's also from the Detroit or Ann Arbor, I

Glen (57:17):
He was originally, he's moved around a bit since then,
but

Grant (57:20):
Yeah.
So he officiated, he got like alicense.
He officiated for them and hemarried them and I was like the
witness or something

Glen (57:30):
And the opening line of Kathy's Vows were, uh, the line
from our single from Hauntario.
And it was one of the mostemotional, probably deeply
rooted, connected feelings I'veever had as a musician in the
scene.
To just randomly show up tothese people.

(57:51):
people that I knew who they wereand have this thing get honored
in that the importance to them.
Now, fast forward when we didreunion shows like five years or
seven years after we did ourfirst reunion show, uh, Kathy
and Russ and, and X Canuck, theyall flew out.
They all flew to Edmonton

Grant (58:11):
Amit.
Amit is

Glen (58:13):
right.

Grant (58:14):
Yeah.

Glen (58:14):
They all flew out to our show too.
Like, that's pretty incredible.

Grant (58:20):
Yeah, they flew out for the reunion at the Smugglers
show too.

Glen (58:23):
amazing.
So

Grant (58:25):
yeah, no, it's, it's very incredible the, the dedication
and you're not the only musicianthat would wade in.
I, I always thought it was agood idea to, um, you know, Dan
would do it.
Um, the guys from the matineewould do it.
Uh, who's the, the, uh, RichardAucoin from Halifax.
We'll get on there and do it.

(58:47):
I mean, people realized, Oh,here's a really dedicated fan
base.
I can just communicate directlywith and, and they, yeah, you're
right.
Like they would just love youfor it forever.

Glen (58:59):
Let me, let me ask you about your role in, in that,
which I know it's changed intransition and maybe that's part
of the explanation or story, butI've had a lot of conversations
about curation.
Um, and.
And it's not just in the musicworld, but, you know, you are
part of what feels like a goldenera of curation, but you were

(59:22):
handed an opportunity that Ithink even at that time, at
least my outside perspective waspeople didn't sort of get to
have that much control and say,which is really perhaps what
elevates this idea of a curator,of somebody who's actually, uh,

(59:43):
It's intentionally not using theword of a gatekeeper, right?
It's like just a curator.
It's somebody who is atastemaker.
like everything's been turnedover to the algorithms as the
curators is what it feels likein modern wise, but that was so
It felt like literally the gateyou needed to go through to

(01:00:03):
achieve any version of CRED inthe indie scene in Canada.
In the time, did you activelyfeel like that's what you were
doing?

Grant (01:00:14):
A little bit.
I mean, it's funny.
Uh, sometimes I think, like, forwhatever reason, I've always
been, you know, when I was at,you know, Mint Records, we would
be deluged with demo tapes.
And it would be like, Sign ourband, sign our band, sign our
band, please sign our band,please.
Or when we did All Ages shows,Nardwar and I would be like, Can

(01:00:37):
our band play?
Can our band play?
And then, at Radio 3, it wouldbe, Play our music on the radio,
play our music.
And still, that is, happens toan extent.
But, you know, so everyone'spitching everyone constantly.
Life's a pitch.
and it's all over the place andpeople are always pitching me
and there's only so much thatyou can absorb and um, but I'm

(01:01:02):
not sure if, I suppose we felt,I mean there were, there was a
point at Radio 3 around maybe2006 2007 where we were like,
You know, we were, we, the firstPolaris Prize came along and we
were very much involved in that.

(01:01:22):
And it was all the bands thatwere in rotation on Radio 3.
So, that first Polaris Prizejust looks like the year end
list of Radio 3.
It was like Sarah Harmer, TheDeadly Snakes, Wolf Parade.
Broken social scene metric, etcetera.
New pornographers.
I might be blurring the firsttwo years, final fantasy.

(01:01:44):
Um, so I suppose there was alittle bit of that, but at the
same time, my goal was simply toplay the best music, let people
know why they should care aboutthe music and form community,
form an audience.
And that was it.
Like I didn't, I didn't like.

(01:02:07):
being any sort of likeauthoritarian or being a
gatekeeper or anything likethat.
I just wanted to share themusic, share why it was amazing
and get people to hear it, likebuild up the audience.
And the, the podcast audiencewas massive.

(01:02:27):
It was out of control.
It was like, you know, over ahundred thousand.
weekly listeners and, um, whichwas caught everyone at the CBC
by total surprise again,visionaries behind the scenes,
not me.
And then, uh, the web and liveradio was a smaller audience.

(01:02:53):
because it was live and ondemand, you can listen whenever
the hell you want.
So, uh, that catered to thelistening habits a little more
than, than live appointmentlistening.
The audience was smaller, but itwas so dedicated and, um, so
Interesting.

(01:03:13):
And we learned all these storiesfrom all these people and it was
incredibly supportive.
You know, I often, you see thissometimes on Facebook now, but,
you know, if someone was havinga bad day on that radio three
blog, they'd come on and theywould say like, oh man, I just
got fired or, you know, I can'tpay my rent or whatever.

(01:03:34):
And I would call it the dolphineffect because, um.
When a dolphin is struggling ina pod, like say there's a
dolphin that's sick or whatever,the other dolphins, and this has
been documented many, manytimes, the other dolphins will
swim under the dolphin and taketurns propping up the dolphin so

(01:03:57):
the blowhole can be above thesurface of the ocean so the
dolphin won't drown.
And that's the way it works.
Metaphorically, what I saw onthat blog is that other people
would rush to lift the spiritsof the person that was down.
Gets me a little emotionalthinking about it because, you
know, the internet is a cesspoolmost of the time and it wasn't

(01:04:21):
on that, on Radio 3 and that'swhat made it so special.

Glen (01:04:26):
Yeah, I I don't even know if I It would sound like
mythical.
If I tried to explain that to mykids right now

Grant (01:04:34):
Oh, there's a lot of, um, people that, um, Yeah, like you
try to explain it now and peoplego like, what?
Like, how does that even exist?
And yeah, you're right.
Like it's just so nasty now andbut and and the interesting
thing is, you know, there aremany many many theories about
why people are nasty.
And one of them is most peoplepoint to that.

(01:04:59):
You're anonymous.
You can create a name.
That's not your name.
Um, you know, Timbit 3000 XOX,and you can say whatever the
hell you want.
What the reversal happened inthe radio three community.
People did create those, thosefunny names, but they didn't
hide behind them.

(01:05:20):
They shared and it was a very,very human experience.
And there was none of thevitriol and none of the garbage
that we see on, you stuff likethat, um, uh, or some other
sharing platforms.
So, you know, I always point toit as, as even at the CBC,

(01:05:41):
within the CBC, when they say,Oh, our comments, there's,
they're terrible.
And I always point, I say, buildcommunity, you build community.
It's just like being in afriendly neighborhood, right?
You say hi to your neighbors.
That's what breaks things down.
And that's what makes theneighborhood safer.
When you build community, it'sall about community.

(01:06:02):
You know, love, family,community.
There's those three words.
That's what builds up society.

Glen (01:06:07):
Well, definitely something that doesn't feel like the
algorithms are including intheir, in their efforts to
curate in modern day.
So, Again, with the overlap ofyour eras, that starts to come
to a close.
You write a book in 2010 and itfeels like the next 10 years are

(01:06:29):
sort of more hallmarked by yourbooks and your writing and stuff
than, than your radiopersonality.
Perhaps, I mean, maybe dependson who's watching, but I'm
wondering like how, how long wasthat overlap?
Was it?
Did it feel like I know youtalked about the tears and stuff
of radio three ending, butpersonally, was that was the

(01:06:52):
changes happening that time?
Was that a risky or a scary timefor you?
Or did you have a

Grant (01:06:57):
It was a change is always scary for me, but I was ready
for the change of radio threebecause doing a live show every
single day, five days a week istotally exhausting and I, you
know, the, the audienceseemingly wasn't ready for a
change, but I was ready for achange.

(01:07:19):
And I, you know, I, my, Istarted really focusing on
artistic pursuits outside of theCBC, you know, writing my books.
I now have, I think, four booksfor adults and two books for
kids.
Um, and I started working ondifferent projects at the CBC.

(01:07:40):
We developed the Canadian MusicClass Challenge, which still
goes to this day, which is, it'shappening right now, actually,
where we, it's all still basedin Canadian music lore.
We put out a list of Canadiansongs and we get teachers to, to
bring the Canadian songs intothe classroom and teach the kids
so that kids are learning theCanadian songbook at a very

(01:08:03):
young age.
And a lot of the songs areplucked from those Radio 3
classics, you know, BedouinSoundclash, When the Night Hears
My Song or whatever.
And, you know, Safe and Sound byHoxie Workman and, and, uh, any
song by Feist, but so That wasoccupied my time at CBC for a

(01:08:24):
while.
The top 20 I've been doing nowfor years.
So, but yeah, I mean, Ibasically discovered the entire,
you know, literary community andthe book community and had
success with that.
In fact, uh, my first book,Adventures in Solitude to this
day is still the most.
And it was, again, one of thosethings where people are like,

(01:08:46):
Oh, you're writing.
I wrote that book about a placethat.
We have essentially a summercabin, uh, a place called
Desolation Sound in BritishColumbia.
And everyone advised me not to,they said, publish the Smugglers
Tour Diaries.
You know, that's what everybodyknows.
You've got them all written, dothat.
But I was, I was like, Oh, whydon't I just like, I've been in,

(01:09:07):
I was in, I've been entrenchedin music for so long that I
really wanted to just break freeof that and just write about
something essentially, totallydifferent.
And so, I immersed myself inthat desolation sound world.
Thanks actually to a CBClockout, uh, that happened in
the mid 2000s.
I ended up spending a lot moretime up there and discovering a

(01:09:30):
lot of the stories that I kindof knew as a kid, but they
really started opening up forme, uh, with an extended period
up there.
And I wrote that book and itended up becoming to this, to
this day, the most successfulpiece of art that I've ever put
out into the world.
Uh, it was a kind of luck andhappenstance.

(01:09:50):
I didn't know.
But the magical thing is thatpeople could relate to it.
So they related to a kid beingdragged to a wilderness place
that I wasn't really thatcomfortable in when I was a kid,
then rejecting it when I was ateenager for rock and roll and
bands and then rediscovering itas an adult and going, Oh my

(01:10:11):
God, how could I have forsakenthis

Glen (01:10:13):
Well, that's a pretty great arc by itself,

Grant (01:10:15):
Yeah, and apparently a lot of other people have gone
through similar arcs because Icannot tell you over the, I
mean, the book's been out for 14years.
I cannot tell you the amount oftimes that people have come up
to me and said, Oh, that remindsme of my experience in

(01:10:35):
Newfoundland or in Michigan orin Manitoba or wherever.
And I'm like, Oh wow.
And you know, my takeaway fromthat is people enjoy art that
they can relate to, you know,uh,

Glen (01:10:49):
stories that stories cross.
Stories

Grant (01:10:53):
Yeah.
Yeah.
But I mean, the tragically hipor a relatable band, because
they would, They wouldn't drapea Canadian flag over their
shoulders, but they would.
sing about songs or stories thatwe could relate to growing up as
Canadians, you know,Weakerthans, similar at their
lyrics, and Joel Plaskett'ssimilar, you know, he sings,

(01:11:15):
sings about the collectiveexperience.
So, uh, I stumbled into thatwith my first book, and it's
basically created a career forme.
based around the stories ofDesolation Sound.
I, I've written about otherthings.
I've written about beer leaguehockey and I've written about
the Smugglers, but the mostsuccessful stuff that the

(01:11:36):
stories that people want to heartime and time again at my live
shows are, are always theDesolation Sound

Glen (01:11:42):
Well, I think that's, you know, and you know, you pair
that with social media, which atthat time it was still if we are
looking back now.
Relative infancy, right?
Like 2010 and you were puttingyourself out there like You you
could see you on your boat Youknow what?

(01:12:02):
I mean in desolation sound likefor me It made it so easy
because i'm of the age groupthat I could read that book And
all I and I my brain could fillall the pictures in with the
beachcombers

Grant (01:12:13):
Yes, exactly.

Glen (01:12:15):
I had this very canadiana Uh relativity like it made that
It all made sense to me and, um,

Grant (01:12:23):
the beachcombers, I, I, you know, I grew up with the
beachcombers.
So many of us did in Canada.
And, you know, my dad used tosay, I, I, my sister and I would
be like, why are we going here?
And he said, it's the real lifebeachcombers.
Okay, kids.
So get in the car.
Let's go.
And I, you know, I, Idefinitely.

(01:12:46):
played into that knowing thatwhen I was writing that book
saying, okay, this is, you know,this is like the Beachcombers
and, and, and it was, it was,and still is really a lot like

Glen (01:12:59):
but it's like saying this actually has been preserved in
time.
What everybody looks at as asnapshot from a, a television
program is actually preserved intime somewhere is very, that to
me, feels so Canadian.
Why That, for some reason thatfeels so important to us that it

Grant (01:13:19):
And in that first book, Adventures in Solitude, I
actually purposely did not putdates in it to try to.
kind of create a sort of atimeless experience, um, which
kind of worked and kind ofdidn't.
But, uh, I now put dates inbecause I kind of want to keep

(01:13:39):
track of where I am and what'shappening with stories.
But yeah, so, um, it's been thewriting side of the writing era
chapter of my life has beenextremely fulfilling and
occupies a lot of my time.
Now, and that Adventures inSolitude thing, like, we just
put out a kid's picture bookversion of it.

(01:14:01):
Myself and illustrator Gingerand Goh just put out it this
summer.
So, I mean, it's still going.
Like, I'm doing a book signingfor it, like, next Saturday or
something.
It's still going.
I, I can't believe the longevityof it all.

Glen (01:14:18):
I'm a little interested and, you know, maybe it's,
there's nothing in the well togo down after here.
But, I mean, you have alwaysbeen a super authentic guy,
which is, I think, what alsobrought you respect alongside of
just the good things that youwere doing in the music scene.
And people really appreciatethat.
But.
I know personally that there's abig difference when you're sort

(01:14:40):
of have a public persona, um, ofbeing authentic and then when
you have to choose to bevulnerable.
And I feel like writing a bookand even the way you just
described, you chose to write abook that was about a very
personal place to you thatwasn't based on all the things
you've built a career on.
So who's gonna, who's going toread this book?

(01:15:00):
Who's going to care?

Grant (01:15:01):
hmm.
I don't know.

Glen (01:15:04):
But it's vulnerable, and I'm wondering if it's felt
vulnerable to you to move intothat stage of your life of
writing and how sort of that'simpacted you.

Grant (01:15:14):
Yes and no.
I mean, I've always leaned onbeing self effacing and I've
always leaned on selfdepreciating humor.
Like, I always try to, you know,usually make myself the butt of
the joke.
Um, you know, like Radio 3,often I'd open the show or the
podcast, you know, with a story.

(01:15:35):
of, I remember the first time weplayed on the, maybe the second
or third podcast, I said, weplayed a PEI band, might've been
Two Hours Traffic.
And I said, well, the only timeI've been on Prince Edward
Island, I got punched in theface and you know, people, I
told the story, but it wasn'tabout, it was like a

(01:15:58):
embarrassing moment for me.
And, and it led to a ridiculousSeries of events and, uh, and,
and so I've always tried to kindof be vulnerable and open myself
up, be myself and make fun ofmyself, you know, like I've
always been a kind of a scrawnyguy with bad knees and bad eyes

(01:16:18):
and, you know, uh, make fun ofit, you know, like I remember,
you know, the band I loved whenI was in high school was the
gruesomes and I really wanted tohave like the perfect mushroom,
um, kind of mop top.
kind of, uh, Ramones, Beatleshaircut.

(01:16:40):
And I tried really hard to getthat, but, uh, my hair is a bit
curlier.
And so with my glasses, what Ioften say is I tried to pull off
Joey Ramone and Bobby Beaton.
And what I ended up looking likewas a cross between Jimi Hendrix
and Woody Allen.
In high school, just a giantAfro and giant glasses didn't

(01:17:02):
really work.
So I, I think vulnerabilitycomes fairly naturally to me
and, uh, it's worked for me.
And I just try to, you know, behonest, be funny.
I try to be funny in almosteverything.
I do always try to entertain.
I just want to entertainaudiences.
You know, when my hero and dearfriend, John Mann from Spirit of

(01:17:26):
the West lead singer, uh, whenhe was wrapping up Spirit of the
West, someone said to him, like,what are you, what are you going
to do next?
And he said, I don't know, justas long as it involves applause.
And I thought that was such a.
honest and, and beautiful quote,because so many of us in the

(01:17:48):
entertainment industry, we justwant to entertain and we want to
make people happy.
And we, we seek out thatapplause and the applause is the
recognition and the acceptanceof the art that you're putting
forward.
Whether the applause is a goodreview or whether it's a couple
of book sales or, or whetherit's a nice comment or whether

(01:18:10):
it's literally people clapping.
in seats with tickets that theybought to go see you.
That's, that's all I want to do,is keep those people

Glen (01:18:19):
I have a friend who likes to ask people if you'd rather be
rich or famous, like just thatreal basic thing and was
surprised that I, I'll pickfamous every time.
Like, uh, I used to, like I usedto sit on a lot of grant juries
and awards juries.
Like there was one year when Ithink I probably saw a
combination of 650 applicationsbetween everything from the to

(01:18:43):
the JUNOS like the WesternCanadian Music Awards and
Factor.
And there were all these peoplethat and some of them had like
pretty good List ofaccomplishments never heard of
them And I remember saying tosomeone like i'm not interested
in anonymous success So like i'minterested in applause too.

(01:19:04):
I think so.
What drives us at the validationpart for sure

Grant (01:19:08):
And then the anonymity thing, uh, can, if you play it
right, um, like Orville Peck, orThe Weeknd, Uh, can also lead to
huge success.
So, you know, it's, it, there'sall sorts of different ways to
play it.
And it's always interesting tosee who can make it work for

(01:19:29):
them.

Glen (01:19:30):
So how how is being a dad?
You impacted like where you'reat now with the writing.
I know you've producedchildren's books and there's
obvious influences in justopening a perspective there, but

Grant (01:19:45):
Well, it's funny you should ask because, um, a note
just pinged up on my screensaying you got to pick up the
kids in

Glen (01:19:51):
well, there we go.

Grant (01:19:52):
So, yeah, so, uh, that's how it impacts me.
It, it limits my time to dostuff, uh, of my own nature like
this.
Um, but no, I mean, the, thekids are amazing.
I love.
Uh, you know, already my son, asyou saw with the music, he's way
ahead of where I was.

(01:20:13):
He's way ahead of me on hockey.
Um, he's a great little rightwinger.
He, uh, you know, took a whileto get going on his offense, but
now he's scoring goals.

Glen (01:20:25):
a hockey dad and a band dad.

Grant (01:20:28):
A hockey dad and a band, band dad.
My daughter is in Embers, whichis the new Brownies.
They've, uh, they didn't, thatname got

Glen (01:20:37):
Yeah, my girl did all that as well.
Yeah.

Grant (01:20:39):
Yeah.
And you know, and she's incircus and gymnastics and hip
hop dance and all that and, andthey're both great artists and,
and we are, um, are, primarilyduring the week, a screen free
family.
So the kids, we don't even,neither myself or Jill played

(01:21:01):
video games when we were growingup.
So there's no video games aroundour house at all.
And so we, we, what's weird isthat my kids are growing up with
less screens in their lives in ascreen generation than Me and my
wife Jill had when we weregrowing up because we of course
had the television and we hadyou know, I had get home after

(01:21:25):
school and it would be like Youknow all the reruns right like
three's company love boat bradybunch mash like all the way to
dinner time And my kids don't dothat.
My kids do other things they doart and and it's weird like i'm
like Jill we're like Amish overhere like um, this this kind of

Glen (01:21:45):
But that'll be pretty interesting to see what that
produces.
I think that's

Grant (01:21:49):
Yeah, I mean, it could hopefully, I mean, they're 11
and 8, so hopefully they don'trebel like crazy hard and become
super gamers when they'reteenagers.
But, um, yeah, so we've justnever been into the video game
thing.
It has basically ostracized myson in certain ways because what
we've realized is, um, A hugepart of kid vocabulary, uh, Is

(01:22:17):
is involves video games and ticktock and,

Glen (01:22:22):
The

Grant (01:22:22):
all that.
And so he,

Glen (01:22:23):
on the lingo.
So.

Grant (01:22:25):
so he doesn't know the lingo.

Glen (01:22:27):
Yeah.

Grant (01:22:27):
And he picks it up and he's like, what does that mean?
And he's telling me, dad, whatdoes Sigma mean?
I'm like, I don't know.
And, and, you know, and so Ifeel guilty in that regard, but
my wife is always like, no, no,no, it'll be fine.
And other parents who's of thesimilar age, whose kids are like
addicted to video games orscreens are always like, if, if,

(01:22:48):
if,

Glen (01:22:49):
Yeah, they'll be fine.

Grant (01:22:50):
if, Yeah, don't, don't introduce it.
Because it's hard to get thetoothpaste back in the tube, you
know, once a kid is likeaddicted to Fortnite or
whatever.

Glen (01:23:01):
Yeah, they'll move into a social, more social era of their
life and, and whatever comeswith it will come with it.
So,

Grant (01:23:08):
Yeah.
And I, yeah.
And I always tell Josh, you'regoing to find your, you're going
to find your people.
And, and he, he has, but, um,but I'm like, you, you put it
out there, you know, he, youknow, he's very shy and somewhat
embarrassed that he doesn't playvideo games, but I'm like, there
are other kids.
And if you say it, Like, Iactually, I don't play video

(01:23:30):
games, so I don't really getthat reference.
There will be a kid in thatgroup that will say afterwards,
Hey, I don't, I don't play videogames either.
And then there's

Glen (01:23:40):
your people.

Grant (01:23:41):
you know, I mean, that's what alternative culture is all
about.
That's what like everything onthis wall behind me is about,
you know, is, is stepping out ofthe mainstream and going your
own way and finding your ownpeople.

Glen (01:23:54):
Yeah, well, that's beautiful.
That's a great note to end on.
You have places to go and, um,anyhow, let me, let me just look
around by saying just how much Iappreciate you taking the time
to kind of pull, pull the veilback on a couple of these
things.
I think the way that your lifekind of blended from one thing

(01:24:14):
to the next is the part of yourstory that I think really
matters to people who.
You know, aren't sure of how tochange lanes themselves and to
see all the great things thathave happened is just really
cool.
And I guess I would be remiss toever say, because I never know
when I'm going to bump into orsee you again, that I always

(01:24:37):
feel like I want to thank youfor giving, like me, your
attention and giving us yourattention in a time when that
was the highest currency.
that I

Grant (01:24:49):
Oh, well, you know, but you're, you're, you're, you put
out the art, you put the art outinto the world.
So, you know, it's my job topromote

Glen (01:24:58):
Well, that's the thing about what this is.
It's, it's when everybody looksat it the same way about how
we're working together on that,it can be really beautiful.
So, uh, I appreciate

Grant (01:25:08):
what, what, I mean, I mean, I know, I know we're
wrapping up, but one of thethings that, that people forget,
um, is that the media, it's amachine that needs to be fed.
Yeah.

Glen (01:25:20):
yeah,

Grant (01:25:21):
And the, what we feed on is stories and in particular the
entertainment side of media, wefeed on new music and stories
that we need your art.
We need the new music.
We need it.
That is what we, that's, youknow, we got to shovel the coal
into the mouth of the furnace tokeep everything going.
And so sometimes people forgetthat it's like, I'm looking for

(01:25:44):
music to new music to play everysingle week,

Glen (01:25:47):
Okay.
Before we go, What's one newthing that you've discovered?
What, like, what's the latestthing that you're like, Oh,
people should hear this.
Like,

Grant (01:25:56):
Cat Clyde.
I love an artist named CatClyde.

Glen (01:26:01):
Okay.

Grant (01:26:02):
Cat Clyde is a performer from Stratford, Ontario, and she
plays this super cool kind ofroots country rockabilly, but
it's, it sounds modern and itsounds throwback at the same
time.
She is one of the coolestmusicians that I have discovered

(01:26:24):
recently, and I think everyoneshould know and check out Cat
Clyde.
CC.

Glen (01:26:32):
Okay.
I'm going to do it.
Uh, what I love is that you,you're forever going to be my DJ
and my curator Grant

Grant (01:26:40):
Well, thanks, Glen.
been a, a, this has been agreat, great conversation.
I really appreciate you takingthrough, taking me through all
these different stages of mylife and, uh, stirring up all
these memories and emotions.
So, uh, it's, it's muchappreciated.
The last thing I'll tell youabout are these glasses.
They're also, um, they're thefront here.

(01:27:01):
This is a mate called Vinylize.
Vinylize.
And this is, uh, ACDC record.

Glen (01:27:07):
really?
Oh, that's

Grant (01:27:08):
that's on there.
You can see the

Glen (01:27:10):
Oh, I love it.

Grant (01:27:11):
the, there's the guitar fags on the side.
But anyway, yeah.
So, music, music, music.
Rock on.
Thanks for everything.
And I'll go, uh, coach somebaseball now.

Glen Erickson (01:27:27):
Hi, how are you doing?
Um,

alexi (01:27:30):
How are you?

I'm fine.
Welcome to.
Uh, episode two Grant Lawrence,and this is post fame, um, with
you, my daughter, Alexi joiningme to talk about the episode.
So,

alexi (01:27:46):
Yes.

before we get into the episode with Grant
Lawrence, lots of new thingsgoing on.
Um, when we recorded the firstpost fame, it was 2024

alexi (01:28:00):
True.

and we decided to leave everything on the computer
until 2025 and just start now.
So we're into 2025.
Um, what has been the mostinteresting new thing about 2025
for you?

alexi (01:28:20):
How many weeks in are we?
Two.
Two in a day.

Two and a day.
Yep.

alexi (01:28:26):
in a day.
Um, a new semester is prettyexciting, but That's just such a
boring answer.
So I'll say starting going tothe gym with you, that's a bit

Oh, that's a great answer.
That's an absolutely greatanswer.
So we

alexi (01:28:43):
you

decided to, yeah, it's a little on the nose, a
little cliche to start onJanuary, like it's a resolution,
but Um It's a, it actuallywasn't a resolution at all for
us.
It was, um, really an act ofconvenience and necessity.
One is I'd been far toosedentary for a number of months

(01:29:06):
and you kids.
were concerned about yourparents getting old.
I don't know.
But, um, and your schedulechanged and

alexi (01:29:15):
Week two.

demand for vehicles.
So I think it's working well.
We've had, this is, we're onweek two of going the, um, the
three days a week.
First thing in the morning.
So

alexi (01:29:26):
Just did number five together.

yeah,

alexi (01:29:30):
Yeah,

I think it's going fine so far.

alexi (01:29:33):
it's going good.
Other than

That's a great,

alexi (01:29:36):
fact that it's messed up my Spotify rotation because the

you're playing workout mixes all the time.
You change your, uh,

alexi (01:29:44):
my curation.
and Grant Lawrence talk a lotabout curation and DJ.
My Spotify algorithm is terriblenow.
I need a new DJ.

Oh, no.
Oh, well, I'm listening to thesame podcast mostly every
morning while I'm working out.
So,

alexi (01:30:02):
Really?

yeah, so nothing's really changed for me.
I wondered if it would changebecause I had built a playlist.
I called muscle makers like overa year ago, uh, from basement
workouts and it's got some realbangers in there.
In fact, I should put a coupleof songs on our playlist.
On our podcast playlist from,

alexi (01:30:22):
Yes.

from muscle makers at the bangers.
But, um, like the one Idiscovered the other day was
ageless beauty by stars.
I think I played that for you inthe car.

alexi (01:30:32):
In the

Um, and I was like, why isn't this on my
muscle maker?
That's a banger of a song.

alexi (01:30:37):
Mm.

ironically, it's from the era that Grant Lawrence
kept talking a lot about.
But before we get into GrantLawrence, one more thing I was
going to chat with you about,which was, I had a question for
you because I came down here andthis is 2025 so it's post
Christmas

alexi (01:30:52):
Yes.

mean, I meant to ask you this before what your
thoughts were, but I might aswell do it like live on the
podcast.
But so.
My kind of my, one of my stargifts of the year was, um, from
your auntie, auntie Nan, who,

alexi (01:31:06):
Nancy?

uh, and this is a, I know there's people who are
listening, not watching, but aFunko doll.
Is that just what it's called?
A Funko?

alexi (01:31:15):
Yeah, like the little plastic figurine, even.

Yeah, I like these collectibles, right?
And they have these giant dollsand I've seen people who have
these in the typical collectibleworld.
They never leave the packaging.
So they catch with this one,which makes it such an amazing
gift for everyone to know is,um, my sister in law customized
it for me.
It's called Glenroy.
It looks like me.

(01:31:39):
He's holding Guitar and wearinga black tuque and black shirt
and all.
Anyhow, so it's fantastic, thisFunko doll.
But I know it's in the world ofcollectibles, which means these
amazing dolls never come out ofthe package.
And people just have these giantshelves with their Funko dolls.
But this, do I take it out ofthe packaging?

(01:32:00):
Like, it's not given to me as acollectible.
It's a personal customized one.
And I, and I can't decide what Ishould do.

alexi (01:32:10):
I think it would be so cute just like,

If I took a note.

alexi (01:32:13):
desk or just, even, I mean, how it is right now on
your

Yeah, I don't mind it in the box.
I don't know.

alexi (01:32:19):
And it says your name, but you could always just rotate
it.
I mean, you're not checking

That is the thing.

alexi (01:32:24):
soon.

That is the thing.
I don't know if those thingseven exist outside of the box.
Maybe they cease to be anythingif they come out of the box.
But anyhow, that's the thing Iwas wrestling with.
And then I came in here tonightand I looked at it again.
So I thought I'm going to askyou.
Um, okay, well, let's talk aboutthe Grant Lawrence episode, uh,
which was a lot of fun for me todo.

(01:32:46):
Um, I don't know.
You can tell me what yourobservations were, but I, I just
have a lot of respect for Grant.
He was a big part of sort of avery big phase of my own life in
this, in the music business andit was fun to talk about it.
I thought he, when I, when I'vebeen editing and going back, he

(01:33:08):
really, Became a historian for alarge chunk of, of that time,

alexi (01:33:14):
hmm.

um, going through really what was happening in the
Canadian music scene.
I thought that was pretty cool,but he was name dropping pretty
fast for

alexi (01:33:22):
Yeah.

an era that was partially before you were even
born.
So I'm just wondering what yourthoughts were.

alexi (01:33:30):
Well, it's like I was saying to you earlier today when
we were chatting.
It's like, you know, I, I heardhis name.
He dropped quite a bit just whenI was with like you or with you
around, like kind of the musicworld, like even just growing
up.
and like, just from that, I knewhe was kind of like a deal in
that scene and in that world.

(01:33:51):
but yeah, you guys were chattingaway and like my little 19 year
old brain was having some hardtime catching up a little bit at
points, just cause I didn't knowsome of the names and the
programs and, you know, he, hetalks about CBC radio and like
CBC music.
Those things and those have justnever been like prevalent in my
world because they aren't reallyjust like a thing for I won't

(01:34:14):
say like my like this timebecause I don't know but for
people my age and like my worldnot really a thing I know what
it is

Well, I think two things.
Do you think this, do you thinkit is partially because your
generation doesn't rely on radioto curate your music for you is
a big part of it.

alexi (01:34:37):
percent

And so that role that CBC played in particularly
the kind of unique thing thatthey were doing doesn't exist
anymore.
So that's got to be for surepart of that.
But I think also, um, I thinkthat one of the things that just
doesn't feel, I'm guessing here,you can tell me what you think,
but I'm guessing what doesn'tfeel also relevant when you say

(01:35:01):
that's kind of not even on ourradar anymore is, is that CBC
itself isn't really taking arole in pushing or curating.
Uh, I should say the indiemusic, they still have CBC music
and they do a lot of really cooldifferent things.
Um, but it's definitely not thesame version of, of them sort of

(01:35:23):
helping essentially grow a very,not just a scene, almost like a
set of genres or sub genres thatcould, But there is a, there is
a great show on CBC called Q andit's not just music.
The host, Tom Power, he's afantastic at his job and great

(01:35:46):
at interviewing.
And I go and listen to thepodcast samples about 20, 25
minutes long when he has artistson.
So, um, so that's pretty cool onthat show, but things have
definitely changed.
So,

alexi (01:35:59):
Yeah, I mean, I mean, at the same time, you guys were
chatting about it, and, um,there was just a lot that, like,
you know, one of you would betelling a story or describing,
And then, you know, you guyskind of, like, could jump in
back and forth and be like, Oh,yeah, yeah, yeah, this guy.
Oh, yeah, this is his name.
Oh, yeah.
And just, like, also listeningto that conversation, I was
like, wow, like, you could, it'sreally evident big that

(01:36:23):
community was.
And not in, like, size, butjust, like, if you were in that
scene, just, like,

yeah.

alexi (01:36:29):
community meant.
And it's, like, you know, thecuration part, like, would be
really interesting to have andit's like definitely like
because of radio and However,you want to describe it like
that's not really a thinganymore, especially for my
generation And you know, it'snever been something where i'm
like, wow, I wish I had, youknow cbc radio I wish I had the

(01:36:49):
radio to listen to when I havelike The convenience of like
Spotify, for example, but thenyou guys like this like whole
community you're talking aboutand like referring to

Yeah.

alexi (01:37:00):
like people and like how there was like weddings and
parties and barbecues and likeit just like brought people
together.
And I was like, Oh, like thatwould be cool.
And like, I think that's lost onmy generation for sure.

Yeah, one of my favorite moments when he was
talking and he used thatmetaphor of the dolphins holding
the sick ones up and then he gotchoked up because he really
believed that that's what thatcommunity, it was a pure version
of sort of online community,which maybe doesn't exist.
And I thought that was, Prettycool and great.
I do think you miss out oncuration.

(01:37:35):
I think what's interesting aboutSpotify is, I mean, you started
just casually joking about thealgorithm has changed because of
your workout schedule.
And really it feels like most ofus are treating the algorithm
like our.
Curator, right?
Like,

alexi (01:37:51):
Yeah.

um, I mean, and you know, the truth is, we all
know like Spotify has playlistsand, you know, most of us though
only see the ones that, youknow, they technically are using
AI or whatever automations allfrom, you know, Your existing
lists to create either genrespecific or mood specific or

(01:38:13):
whatever.
They are playlists for us,right?
But they have their ownplaylists.
And yeah, it's a, it's achallenging thing.
Like, so on the, on the musicbusiness side of it, if I'm an
artist right now, right?
Like.
It makes all the difference toget on to some of the larger
playlists.
So the playlists that havemassive amounts of subscribers,

(01:38:36):
most of them are primarily byemployees of Spotify.
Whose job is it to put thesethings together?
Right.
And,

alexi (01:38:44):
Yeah.

so getting on it has become a whole new.
A whole new game to play.
So back when it was GrantLawrence and I, I made that joke
near the beginning, I think ofour conversation, how Dan and I
were scrambling for hisattention.
Like that was a massive focus atthat stage of our careers,
right?

(01:39:05):
And, uh, Dan Mangan is who I'mreferencing So he was our
attention because he curated themusic and if we got on the
thing, it was pretty, prettyhuge.
So, um, in the same way, I know,I know a lot of artists now,
like a lot of, from that time Ispent doing the development work

(01:39:26):
with the country artists in theprovince, they, I see their
posts now and, you know, and soif they get added to a list,
they'll be very quick to share.

alexi (01:39:35):
and they're

And if they, if they land the cover, like if
they're publicists and that's,and again, that's.
It's all part of the machine,right?
Like you need maybe a goodmanager, a publicist who has got
the right connections and tryingto hound people to

alexi (01:39:51):
Yeah.

get you that placement.
Cause it does such a big thingfor your career.
So it's definitely changed, butit exists kind of the same way,
but in a different way.

alexi (01:40:01):
I mean, definitely more machine driven now.
Mm

yeah.
Did anything else?
Stick out to you other than thecuration part or other parts you
understand Perhaps in your 19year old brain and want to work
out

alexi (01:40:17):
No, I mean, I, I understood Um, maybe I phrased
that poorly, but I think theother thing that, like, really
stuck out was, kind of less todo with music, but more just
like when he was talking aboutthe fact that his family and his
kids don't have electronics andthe fact that his son already

(01:40:37):
has a band.
I was like, I was honestly, Iwas living for that when I was
listening, like, especiallybeing in education.
And I was like, yes, likesomeone's kids.
Cause my generation really, it'slike, we're kind of like one of
the first to go through.
Childhood and development withscreens all the time in our
faces, and then, you know, thegeneration, like, just above

(01:41:00):
mine is starting to have kidsnow, and we're like seeing those
effects, and even just being awaitress.
I see the effects of childrenbehavior all the time, but

Oh, yeah,

alexi (01:41:11):
you know, I think it's just so interesting, um,
creative his kids sound.
And especially seeing his son,like, having a band in Eleven,
having Grant Lawrence be yourdad and be able to, like, help
you put that together and haveshows.
I think that's just, that wasthe loveliest thing ever.

yeah, I mean he didn't really Talk about it
much, but I mean he's married tojill barber so jill barber is uh

alexi (01:41:39):
Also

name as a singer.
She's had some, uh, like awardwinning Juno type level, uh,
jazz albums as well as, uh, andso she is a well known name
around the country andincredible artist on her own.
So you just know, That, youknow, there's this sort of

(01:42:01):
presence of that in the, in thehousehold, I, but yeah, the
thing with his son and the band,it made me think, you know,
like, where's, where's the realversion of the new punk rockers
going to come from in our, inthe new generation, right?
If you need, because a lot ofthat kind of stuff comes from

(01:42:22):
people that were trying to like,either break free of something
or they were just kind of raisedcounterculture.
And being raised without screensis as counterculture as it can
possibly get at this moment inhistory, right?
So, so I guess just what reallyshocked me is like, I wasn't

(01:42:44):
surprised that his kids Wantingto play music

alexi (01:42:47):
No.

the, you know, nature, nurture, whatever the
environment is

alexi (01:42:52):
For

pretty ripe for it.
If, if the seeds are alreadythere, but the age though, like
11 years old.
And,

alexi (01:42:59):
years old.

and I went to his socials and he had posted like a
little bit about this.
Gig that they were prepping forand showed these like 11 year
old boys and stuff in a circlein a living room practicing.
And I was just like, this isamazing.
Like that's really young.
Like at 11 years old, well, Idon't even know what I was

(01:43:20):
doing.
And I think I was like trying tojump the furthest off a swing to
impress girls when I was 11years old,

alexi (01:43:28):
hmm.

that that didn't pay off very well in my life.
Playing in a band at 11, that'spretty great.
So, I'm impressed.

alexi (01:43:38):
I thought so

That's a great observation, actually.
I think one of the great thingsabout Grant that I appreciated
in the interview, and a big partof, behind why talking and
finding these stories and theseconversations is important, uh,
or at least the light, thespotlight that I want to start
to shed more is All thedifferent paths that you take

(01:44:04):
over the long haul, that it'snot a short game, it's a long
game, and we usually think thatwe're in a certain lane in our
life, and then things change,and then you end up in another
lane, but there's still a bigpiece of the last lane in you,
and to end up now where he's at,you know, uh, you know, at

(01:44:24):
around 50, being primarily ahockey and a band dad and an
author, you know,

alexi (01:44:31):
was gonna say

but still connected to his music stuff and
his roots that come in handythat now he's teaching his kid
how to help book shows and hehas to book his own book tours
and then he brings his oldmusician friends along for these
sort of evenings of music andstory

alexi (01:44:52):
Mm hmm.

and that goes back to the early days in his
20s when you have to kind ofhustle again and it's kind of
full circle and I think that'sthat was really Something I've
reflected on afterwards that Ithought was pretty great.

alexi (01:45:07):
And what a beautiful spot to be in, that he can be doing
all that, like, I feel likeevery 10, 20 minutes in that
podcast, it was like, oh, andyou're doing this.
Oh, yeah.
And you did this.
Oh, yeah.
Like it.
He has done a lot.
He knows a lot.
I think.
Yeah, definitely a good sourceof knowledge for that.

And he cares a lot, which is maybe what that,
maybe that was really what'sunderneath why his ability to
accomplish and do all thosethings is because he didn't half
ass anything.
I think it just reminds me thatthe people who really just.
give themselves 100 percent to athing tend to be able to do the

(01:45:50):
thing and they get the thingback.
So, um, playing it safe doesn'tcreate the opportunities of a
life like that, you know?
So he's a great example.
Yeah, I like it.
Good stuff.

alexi (01:46:08):
Very good stuff.

Okay.
Well, thank you.
Uh, thank you for this.
Um, Is there any, I was going toask you if there's any new songs
I should be aware of or I'mmissing and there was one that
you've played a couple of times,darn it, and I'm using my phone
as a camera so I can't go andlook it up because I've been

(01:46:33):
trying to go and find it.
Oh no, I did find it.
Is it the one I asked you about?
Is it the Joe P song?
I asked you the other day andyou were like,

alexi (01:46:42):
that's Joe P when I'm listening to him so much right
now.

I know, but I need to know which song it was.
Yeah.
Darn it.
Okay.
I can't remember.
Uh, I can't think of a singleprompt to help you narrow down

alexi (01:46:56):
I was gonna say I can

which Joe P song it was.

alexi (01:47:02):
here, I'm

But I,

alexi (01:47:03):
out,

but I specifically asked you and I'm
like, is this, there's nojudgment for you pulling your
phone out right now.
What do you mean?

alexi (01:47:11):
Screenager.

I'm literally asking a question.
It's like,

alexi (01:47:17):
Um, I think you're wrong.
I don't think you Oh, um,

I swear it would

alexi (01:47:27):
I think it's Don't Wanna Love You by Joe P.
Cause that one doesn't soundlike him, and I think this was
our conversation the other day.

Okay.
Say the name again.

alexi (01:47:39):
you said, wanna love you by Joe

Don't want to look.

alexi (01:47:42):
being said, I could be wrong right now.

Okay.
Well, I'm going to have to golook it up after this.
So if it is,

alexi (01:47:48):
If it is.

I'm going to put it on our playlist.
And the link to our Spotifyplaylist for Almost Famous
Enough is going to be in theshow notes and liner notes, uh,
everywhere.
Plus on our social, I'm going tobuild like a little link tree
thing for our social, um, Andget that everywhere so that

(01:48:13):
it'll be on the website thingtoo.
So people can find the AlmostFamous Enough playlist and we'll
keep drawing it with music ofpeople who visit us and guests
and, uh, and bands that we talkabout or drop or

alexi (01:48:29):
I was

things.

alexi (01:48:30):
our fun mentions.

Yeah.
Everything that we get to share,it'll be fun to just keep
pumping that playlist full.

alexi (01:48:37):
Perfect.

Yeah.
And I don't know what we do witha playlist like that.
Do you take people outeventually?
So it doesn't become liketerribly huge or you wait until
somebody gets canceled and thenthey get pulled off the list.

alexi (01:48:49):
I was going to say, wait until they mess up.
I feel like it's so rude.
I feel like if they've been on apodcast, you can't take them
out.
And that's like

I don't know how this works.
Yeah.
Well, not the artists.
No, just the mentions.
I don't know.
We'll see.

alexi (01:49:00):
mentions.

Okay.

alexi (01:49:02):
what the

Either way.

alexi (01:49:03):
is.

Exactly.
That's the point.
That's the point.
Okay.
This has been fun.
Thank you.

alexi (01:49:10):
Yes.
Thank you for the ring light.
I feel so much better

Yeah, you're welcome.
Mine's feeling good too.
Okay.

alexi (01:49:16):
Love it.

Thank you.
Love you.
Bye bye.

alexi (01:49:19):
Love you.
Bye.

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