ep7 Adaline is a bad believer

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Glen Erickson (00:00):
I think some of the most interesting criticisms
I read in the comment sectionsof artists is when they are told
to quote unquote stay in theirlane.
It usually comes after an artistor musician has made some kind
of public statement on a socialor political issue, or has just
aligned themselves with an eventor person in some way or
another.
I think it's an interestingcriticism because the very

(00:22):
nature of being an artist and acreative is to live in the
spaces that overlap every partof us as people.
There is nocompartmentalization.
It's not possible.
While a consumer may prefer fora singer to just create songs
that they like, it's inevitablethat artist may tear up a
picture of the Queen on SaturdayNight Live.

(00:44):
Adaline has never been on SNL,nor symbolically protested on
grand stages as such.
Adaline is the stage name ofShawna Beasley, an incredible
songwriter and singer whosecareer has skipped from
Vancouver to Toronto to LosAngeles.
She has, however, embraced adifferent kind of protest by
building a community around her,of people identifying with

(01:06):
religious trauma, allowing herown personal outing to come
through her music over time.
Her music was her first protestof all the unfair standards and
traditional traumas cycled overtime.
And she has allowed the overlapof her personal cause to become
the cause of others.
Born in the music, but notunlimited by it.

(01:27):
Adaline has released five albumsover the past 16 years, appeared
in over 80 TV and filmplacements, been the voice to
many successful commercials andcampaigns and founded the Bad
Believer community.
My name is Glen Erickson.
This is Almost Famous Enough.
Thanks for spending your timewith us.
This.

(01:47):
is Adaline.
We're good.
So let's dive in where we weresort of chit chatting right off

(02:07):
the bat, which is like, how longhas it been?
And again, publicly, I want tomake sure I don't just like time
into a, you and I catching upsession because, um, you know,
but here's, here's the catch.
I I've done this with a coupleof people, but I would love to
just dive in with you.
in this way to the point rightwhere we met each other, which

(02:29):
is a point pretty early in yourcareer.
And I really want to be able todraw sort of paint a picture at
some point quick about Just thelandmarks or the milestones of
your career and where youstarted, where you're at and
some of the things in thosepieces as they moved.
But since this is really backearly, I'm going to drop you
with a really big one right offthe bat, which is, I think our

(02:52):
story of when we actually metwas really interesting.
And I want to hear your take onit.
So when you think like, here weare, two friends that met, you
know, well over a decade andsome ago and a half ago.

Shawna (03:04):
Yeah.

We've never ever talked about this though, so I
just think it'd be in a, and Iswear this will be all the deep
dive catching up I'll do reallyinteresting and I want to hear
your take on when we met on howyou sort of remember it.

Shawna (03:20):
I don't remember the moment we met because we Well,
first of all, my memory isterrible, but also I remember, I
remember like hanging out withyou in Edmonton I remember that
experience and being at, Oh,what hotel were we at?
what's, what's the exact momentwe met?
I just remember, you know, it'swild.
I just remember you being in mylife.

(03:42):
And it's almost like when wemet, we were so immediately like
synced that it's,

exactly.

Shawna (03:50):
I don't even remember not

It's a big part of my memory, too.
The, the immediate,

Shawna (03:56):
connection.

so what you might be remembering of hanging out in
Edmonton might've been Regina,Saskatchewan, because we had a
big hang at a breakout West orWestern music words, at one
point.
And I remember us doing a lot ofchumming around there, but, so
my memory of when we met was inToronto.
It must've been North byNortheast.
Cause I'm pretty sure it wasJune because of the tour route

(04:20):
that my band was on at the timeand my publicist was.

Shawna (04:25):
So it would have been North

Yeah, at that time, CMW was in March and North
by Northeast in Toronto was inJune, which is again, in
recollect for the size of themusic industry in Canada to have
the two pillar things in Torontoso close together in the year
was always funny.
I mean, they've sort of tried tofigure it out since then, but it
was, it must've been in June,but, and it must've been North

(04:48):
by Northeast.
My publicist is Ken Beatty, ofKill Beat, right?
And it was The Riv on Queen, oneof the venues hosting some
bands, and it was one of theselight organ bands, something
Sons was playing.
I'm trying to get as much detailas my bad old memory can get
too.

(05:08):
So here's the part that was,this is why it's a fun memory
for me, okay?
So Ken introduces us, we'rehitting it off right away, and
Just sitting off to the side,ignoring the band and talking
over top of them.
As artists, we should never havedo that.
But there we were doing thething where you talk over top of
the band.
Cause we're so into like findingout about each other.

(05:30):
And I don't remember at whatpoint we kind of made that real
big connection.
So I'll get to that part in asecond, but at some point in
there, Because you have a realenergy and a real vibe and
you're real big in a room, Ithink.
And I find that super engagingand I'm just getting to know
you.
And, and so at some point youhad a group of girlfriends pull

(05:51):
you off to the bathroom.
And I don't know why, cause ithad never happened to me before,
but somehow in my mind I knewexactly what was going on.
And then you came back out andyou said like, they were warning
you that they saw that I waswearing a wedding ring.
Is it coming back to you now?

Shawna (06:08):
Yes.

Okay.
So this has never happened to mein life, which is why it sticks
with me.
This is why this is stickingwith me, right?
I've never had it happen in mylife where I wasn't trying to
conceal my wedding ring.
I don't, we joked about, I don'tknow what was going on.
We were just, I'm just energeticand communication and we were
like clicking right away.
So I found that one of thefunniest things I'd ever, ever

(06:32):
thought about.
Anyhow,

Shawna (06:34):
I mean, I was just so single.
I was just so single.
And I feel like when I met you,I was just also like ready to
mingle.
And

you were.
Yes, you were.

Shawna (06:45):
And I think that, my friends probably saw that we
were, it off.
And even though we weren'thitting it off in that way, it's
funny.
And I find this, even as I getolder to how much friendships,
whether it's, you know, loveconnections or friendships, they
have, they have some of the samebuilding blocks.

Yeah.

Shawna (07:03):
there's a lot of like the same things there.
Sometimes I had an experiencerecently where I met someone
where I thought, Oh, I reallywant to be their friend.
And I had like almost similarfeelings of like the same nerves
of, of romantic interest.
So like, Oh my gosh, well, butwill they want to hang out with
me and do they want to be myfriend?
So sometimes I think life in, inwhether it's romance or
friendship, it can be such afine line.

(07:25):
So my friends probably saw usand immediately were like, Oh,
she's interested and needs to begiven the heads up.
Yeah, that

Yeah, I totally, I totally agree.
Like, you know, there's thecolloquial joke of a bromance.
And I think that's just adultmen realizing that, in
relationship, you findattractive qualities in somebody
and it energizes you and youwant to be with them and, and
so, yeah, absolutely thathappens, you know, and of

(07:53):
course, in certain circles orplaces or in different points in
history, the observation of thatprobably happening.
between the sexes is perceived acertain way, but what's
interesting to me then, too, istheir perception of that energy
that was going on and this isthe kicker for me was really
around this thing that you and Iconnected with, which is in very
short order.

(08:13):
Somehow we figured out we wereboth PKs.
Which, for those who don'tunderstand the, the term in
certain circles, a PK is apastor's kids.
So we are both the children ofevangelical ministers in
somewhat parallel or adjacent,sort of belief structures and,
and church operations for lackof a better term.

(08:34):
So the adjacency and thesimilarity and our ages and all
that.
So all of a sudden we had thisshared experience.
Right.
That we, I thought, and pluswe're here, we are trying to
like chameleon ourself into, thedebaucherous music industry or
whatever.

Shawna (08:49):
we're music.

yeah, so I, it gave us a lot to talk about.

Shawna (08:55):
I think that, yeah, you're, hit the nail on the head
in my life in general, wheneverI meet anyone from the
evangelical world, it's.
It's like a different languagethat unless you're from it, you
just, you can't speak it andit's not that it's better than
anything else.
It's just different.
And so when you meet someonefrom that world, you immediately

(09:16):
feel like, oh, you're, I, youare going to be in my life
forever, especially when we'recoming from a space and now
we're in a different space.
It's just such a unique journeythat I think when I met you, it
was like, oh, you get it.
yeah.
And, and people always like tryto get it and they can get it in
different ways, but it is likeevangelicalism is such a, you

(09:36):
know, immersive, allencompassing experience that it
is hard to fully grasp it unlessyou've been in it.

Absolutely.
It's a total vibe and it is likecamp kids coming back and now
we're forever united around ourcamp experience when you're
young, right.
because, but it's also a littleextra immersive because we're
children, of the people who weresort of.
Overly immersed in it andresponsible for creating a
modeling, this version ofimmersion and whatnot.

(10:04):
So it had its own little vibe,but that's exactly why I felt
very, bonded to you veryquickly.
I feel as a friend in, in, inthe wild world Music and I was
coming at it a bit older, right?
And I think that was anothershared experience.
We had, I remember some of yourearliest concerns were simply
the, the, the burden ofperception that a female artist

(10:28):
bears that, males don't.
And you were either 30 orapproaching 30 at the time.
And you were expressing allkinds of fears about that as
well.
And I was, I didn't start myband until I was 35 or 33 or 35.
And, So I had sort of ageistfears as well about the
industry.
So there was lots to bond.

(10:50):
So I, I just, I figured might aswell, we might as well just
start off with recollection,either it's an interesting to
story people or it's not, butso,

Shawna (10:58):
I mean, you, you also, it, you're describing a lot of,
like, where a lot of us fromthat world are late bloomers.

yeah,

Shawna (11:05):
so, yeah, it kind of makes sense that if you're going
to be in that and go intosomething else, especially
music, it's just, we were just alittle bit older than everyone
else.

yeah, that's a great point.
So that was around, I'm guessingeither 2008, maybe that was
2008, maybe it was 2009 though,might be a better bet that it
was.

Shawna (11:23):
Yeah, I think it was 2000, probably 2009.
Yeah, probably around there.

So you were an artist who moved from Vancouver
to Toronto, and, and that Ithink is always a point of
conversation in the musicindustry in Canada, right?
So you had released your firstrecord in 2007, when you were, I
think, still in Vancouver, whenyou released your first album.
Yeah,

Shawna (11:50):
just, one year.
It's 2008.
I started recording it in 2007,released it in 2008 in
Vancouver.
And the Vancouver music scene,you know, from back then into
the, into the 2010s was justamazing.
so there was like quite a bit ofcommunity there, which was so
fun.
But yeah, there's that feelingof like, oh, it's time to, you
know, Expand this and naturallyyou think of going to Toronto.

(12:14):
I think

the,

Shawna (12:15):
did.

yeah, the pull of Toronto in the Canadian music
scene is, is, like undeniable

Shawna (12:22):
Yeah,

an entire industry sort of being there and
the, at the time, I think it'smaybe changed a bit now,
obviously, it's evolved a bit,but at the time, it was an
inevitable question of, youknow, if you started to see
success, are you consideringmoving to Toronto to sort of be
in the center of it and then youmake this choice of, You know,
do I be a bigger fish in asmaller pond or all of a sudden

(12:46):
become a very small fish in abig pond?
What was,

Shawna (12:50):
totally.

you can think all the way back to that, what was,
was it, was, did it, let me putit this way, did it feel
impulsive or was, or did youreally, Think that one through
and, and talk with people andsort of set up the steps to make
the move.
And you sort of knew what youwere after, or were you doing
sort of the Hollywood versionof, you know, going to LA or, or

(13:12):
Nashville to, to make it big.

Shawna (13:14):
Well, it's so funny because I'm sitting here in my
Los Angeles home.
So apparently I just, that's howmy brain works.
no.
So when I first, that's a goodquestion.
It didn't feel impulsive becauseI had recorded, I'd come to
Toronto in, gosh, 2010 torecord, my record album.

(13:35):
modern Romantics, which came outin 2011.
So in 2010 I spent a summer inToronto recording, with Hawksley
Workman.
And so I kind of had four monthsin the city to, to feel it out,
to get a sense of what it waslike.
you know, and it was wonderfulbecause I was recording and
meeting lots of people and I didfind the energy to be energy to

(13:57):
be quite different thanVancouver.
A little bit more go, go, go,which I was really drawn to.
It wasn't as laid back.
And I was just at a time in mylife where I wanted to feel that
buzz.
so luckily I'd had those fourmonths making the record.
So I had like informed decision.
And then I think I movedpermanently early 2011.

(14:17):
so I had, yeah, a little bit oftime to think on it, but you
know, it's always a gamblebecause like I mentioned, we had
a great community in Vancouverand there was a lot going on
there.
Arguably more even than what Ifound in Toronto in the sense of
I had a tighter community inVancouver.
But you know, you, you just haveto take those gambles in life
and, and see you can always goback.

(14:40):
but it is that, that classicquestion, do I wanna like stay
where I have at least thecomfort of knowing that I can,
you know, talk to radio stationseasily?
Or do I wanna somewhere where noone knows who I am?
That's always a tough choice.

It is a very tough choice.
I think a lot of artists,especially Western Canada, and I
think you talk about Vancouver,so you at least had an
opportunity of some size andcommunity, not to mention the
timing that you were talkingabout, which I think was really
well timed for what wasdeveloping and they had a real
positive impact.
solid boom for quite a while inthe independent music scene and

(15:18):
the connection.
so you, you make the move andlike you said, you're working on
that record with Huxley Workman.
So let's, let me pause for aquick second and just sort of
reference, your releases becauseI don't know whether I grabbed
them from like Wikipedia or Igrabbed them off Spotify, but
then the years don't line up,but the years don't maybe matter

(15:41):
so much now anymore.
But

Shawna (15:43):
There's a

you make,

Shawna (15:44):
space between my second and third record, big amount of
time.

yeah, there's some gaps.
that's fine.
I mean, so you had your firstrelease.
independently famous for fire,and then like you just
referenced modern romantics,which you recorded with Hawksley
Workman.
So, and then that comes out2011, you say, and then and then
aquatic is that 2017 all the wayto then and then dear illusion

(16:10):
in 2020.
And then you released your Yourlatest one, hymnal last year in
2024.
So, I, you know, publicly wehave perceptions of artists
about their career, whether youcall it arcs or trajectories or
whatever you want to call it,the public just has this simple
perception of milestones of, arethey doing it or are they not

(16:30):
doing it, you know, and you sendother records.
So yeah, I guess they're stilldoing it, even though it was
four years ago or five yearsago.
And, So it's very different thanwhat you are experiencing as an
artist.
So I think it's interesting totie back, but let me ask you
kind of a bigger question whenyou just talk about the span,
right?
From 20, 2007, eight to 2024

Shawna (16:55):
Wild.

producing and making records.
So you actually get to call it amusic career, right?
Which is, I'm going to guess itdoesn't look at all right now.
What you thought it was gonna bewhen you set out and made and
released that first record,which is like birthing a child
and learning what that would belike for the first time, this

(17:16):
whole thing.
And you think your career isgonna be something.
Can you, can you sort ofdescribe what you think you felt
like it was gonna be sort ofagainst what you really feel
your career has been now

Shawna (17:29):
Yeah,

that's.

Shawna (17:31):
I mean, that's a big one.
This is always really tricky andI still am trying to figure this
out.
I think you have to dream big.
You have to.
That's in all things in life.
That's what makes us get out ofbed in the morning.
That balance between dreamingbig and being realistic is just
extremely hard.
I've always been someone thatthinks you just need to dream

(17:54):
and, and go for it, but alsoknow that it may not happen or,
or shape out exactly how youthink it will.
And navigating the potentialfeelings of disappointment or,
Oh, I didn't quite reach thatgoal.
Quote unquote goal is, is reallydifficult.
but the reality is, is that, Noone ever reaches points in their

(18:15):
career exactly the way that theythought they would.
you have to leave space forallowing life to take you on
whatever journey that might be.
But I would say that I'vedefinitely had to try to learn
to process the feelings of not.
Quite getting there.
I mean, the name of your podcastis just so great.
I think I actually had a similarexperience when the CBC did this

(18:39):
feature on me once.
And it was like the artist.
You don't know that, you know,and I just thought that is so
perfect because I've done quitea bit.
And I've been the voice ofdifferent things.
I think one thing that wasreally surprising for me was how
much commercial work I ended updoing.
That was never really a part ofthe plan or like my sync

yeah,

Shawna (18:58):
there's so many times that people have heard me, but
they don't know who I am, whichis partly kind of cool, but also
a little frustrating.
Cause you know, you would lovefor people to know the voice so
that you could actually retainthose people and try to

yeah.

Shawna (19:15):
into your world.
But I'm also just grateful.
I know how hard it is for peopleto hear your voice.
So I'm grateful for that.

Well, let's jump in on that.
I, I find, because I find thatone of the most fascinating
parts about your career, right,is because what I was alluding
to is we all start out as dreamsof an artist, of us, if we're
writing the songs we want toperform, what we're really doing
is saying, I want to, you know,Step into the shoes of these
people.

(19:43):
I've idolized and the big and werecognize it's a big ask.
It's a big dream to do so,right?
So we're really sort of justcopycatting and mimicking in
those first stages of what wethink we want to be and become.
And we have expectations of howit will play out.
But as you described, it doesn'tplay out that way.
And you've had surprises, right?

(20:04):
These are the corners you'veturned and didn't know where
they were going to take you.
And that shapes your career.
So, one of the, one of thethings I've, I've been caught
saying a couple of times in mypast, which now sort of like
haunt me in all of this processof my life as well.
I've sat on a million.
It feels like hyperbole, butgrant either grant or Jurying,

(20:26):
right, at all different levels,or awards, jurying and all this
sort of thing.
And I was always fascinated,similar to that phrase that they
used with you at CBC, but I wasalways fascinated by somebody
who had this resume and I hadnever heard their name before.

Shawna (20:42):
Right.

And of course, as you know, I can sometimes like
lean on the arrogant, side whenI like to say things in my life.
So I, I remember boldly oncesaying, I'm just never
interested in anonymous successand.
I don't know if I still believethat anymore.
Like I've had to learn a lot,right?
You say something out of sort ofa haste or impetus and you

(21:05):
learn, but the, but the phrasekind of stuck with me and sort
of what you're describing of howyou feel as an artist, if you
realize that you might beachieving quote unquote,
anonymous success, right?
Perhaps we can start with, causeI couldn't remember the name of
it, but I remember being sothrilled when I heard that

(21:25):
Christmas commercial that yousang the little piece and the
voice and the adorable littleanimated girl, right?
And it felt like it just sort ofexploded out there.
And what was that song orcommercial when you talk about
your work in jingles that couldwe start there?

Shawna (21:43):
Yeah, I mean, that was what a what?
A what an epi epitome moment oflike something coming outta left
field and then all of a suddenit's just this huge thing.
So was, an ad for Cineplex andthey'd done this short film
called Lily and the Snowman.

Hmm.

Shawna (22:00):
and so.
sort of started like a lot ofthese things start where, you
know, I get a call usually fromeither a music house or a
composer, and they say, youknow, I've got this song and,
you know, you do a lot of these,you sing and get paid a little
bit of money and you just crossyour fingers that it lands.
And, you know, that's it.

(22:20):
Often it doesn't.
And then you just go on to thenext project.
So when I first got the callfrom this, for this from David
Arcus, who's the composer, hesaid, you know, it's a, it's a
Genesis cover.
they have the rights for theGenesis cover of follow you,
follow me.
And so we did it.
And often with these ads, Imean, you're doing them so fast.
I think we did it in like halfan hour, 45 minutes.

(22:42):
It's just a quick thing.

I was going to ask.
Yeah,

Shawna (22:47):
Oh, all this stuff is fast.
I mean, the amount of ads that Ihave that have gone on to be on
television that I recorded likeunder a blanket, like, or in an
airport trying to find like a,some kind of enclosed space.
I can layer my jackets over myhead.
I mean, that's just.
Kind of how it is.
especially now with so manythings recording at home.

(23:08):
so, so recorded that with Davidand then.
found out that they wanted to doa second record.
And when I showed up to do it atthe music house at Vapor in
Toronto, there was a wholecamera crew there.
think that's when I was like,Oh, they're, this is becoming
this, they're planning on reallypushing this in some way,

(23:28):
because it's very rare for youto be recorded, performing for
commercial work.
and then, yeah, and then it.
they decided to release it andpush it before, well, what
movie?
I think it was Star Wars.
It was a Star Wars Christmasspecial.
it may have been like the firstStar Wars that was coming out in

(23:50):
a while.
And, it played before movie incinemas across Canada, over the
holidays.
And it just sort of Picked upsteam and became this viral
thing.
And then all of a sudden pickedup on YouTube.
And I think it had 48 or 50million views.

(24:11):
and this whole time people werelike, where can we get the song?
Where can we get the song?
often with commercial work, youdon't release those songs.

you don't record the whole thing, right?
If you've done this in half oryou're just recording the
segment they're going to use andthey've mapped it.
Yeah.

Shawna (24:29):
Yeah.
So we, we did end up finishingthat song because there was.
Like a desire for people to hearit, but I think it was released
under the artist's name.
Like the artist's name was themusic house featuring me.
I mean, it's just one of thosethings where it's so rare for
people to be asking for a fullsong of a song they hear in an
ad, but it became this reallycool thing.

(24:53):
Financially, it wasn't a bigthing for me because it was just
a theatrical release.
So it never went on TV.
So I didn't make TV money oranything like that, but it was,
really beautiful for connectingwith people.
And so many people walk down theaisle at their wedding to the
song, or, you know, kind of hada little bit of a stint on hot
AC and, you know.

(25:14):
It's in radio in Canada.
so I got to go play some radiostations and things like that.
So that was just a, littlesurprise and a very rare
experience of like my commercialwork and my artist work kind of
like intersecting becauseoftentimes they're separate.
In fact, when I do commercialwork, I often.
ask for my artist name to not belisted because it's not my

(25:36):
creative work.
When I do commercial work, I'mbeing art directed to sing in a
certain way.
Sometimes it doesn't even soundlike me.
so I often try to separate them,but that was an instance of them
kind of merging.

you're, and you're getting those jobs
because of your skill as avocalist and the singer to take
that art direction and do allthat.
So it's not your own artisticexpression.
And I think it's interesting,Shawna, that, I think people are
always interested, what you sortof alluded to, is there a payoff
for an artist?
There's no version of residualsor like you mentioned, like TV

(26:09):
money because of sync and stuffthat, that someone might have an
opportunity to continue to earnbased on.
Placements and how often thesethings are actually, you know,
screened, but you're justtaking, you know, a project fee
in a sense.
And then maybe artists arethinking, oh, then maybe you're

(26:30):
trying to hope that the exposureas the famous commodity and
currency in artistic industries,the exposure will pay off for
you as some form of currency.
and maybe those are the onesthat Have come closer to having
some payoff for you, whether itbe making other connections that

(26:51):
would do that, I presume.
Did you feel like those werecreating opportunities for you?

Shawna (26:56):
Oh yeah.
Well, so what's so interestingis singing in an ad is
considered acting.
So when I started doing ads, Ihad, I, you know, the first few
ones I would have to do these,permits with acta.
and then once I did enough ofthem, I became a full member.
So I'm a full member of, of theactors union in Canada and here
in the us.

(27:17):
I'm not an actor.
so when I'm licensed, when I,you know, and this is what's
different from comp for, asopposed to composing for
commercials for composing, theyoften get like this lump sum
payout, from like a buyout fromthe agency, or they might have a
deal with the music house thatif it gets renewed, they get
kind of like a bump up again,like a re level of some sort

(27:39):
financially.
But for the singers, becausewe're considered actors, we get
paid like an actor's,

Yeah.

Shawna (27:47):
which means that every time in Canada, it's a little
different than the States, butwhenever it gets renewed, I get
paid again.
And in the States I get paidevery time it airs on anything.
So singing commercials is.
Very lucrative.
even more so potentially thaneven writing the music for them.
because the music side of thingsdoesn't really make as much

(28:09):
money sometimes.
so that has been huge for mejust pursuing that side of
things.
I don't get a ton of as muchcreative input, but that's what
my artist career is for.

Yeah.

Shawna (28:20):
of feel like I get to live in this space where I do
really, you know, one day I'msinging soul and one day I'm
doing folk and one day I'm doinga different country or, and
that's really fun.
But.
That would never want, I'd neverwant that to be the only thing I
do creatively.
I also want to feel like I'm

Yeah.

Shawna (28:37):
So I think for all of us in this industry, especially now
financially, you kind of do haveto wear a million different hats
and that's partly tiring, but italso is partly what keeps it
interesting and fresh.
And cause I, it's funny to goback to what we were saying
before.
I had these dreams of what Iwanted my life to look like, but

(28:59):
I don't even know if I wouldhave loved.
Doing what we wanted, like thisthing we wanted

That's a great point.

Shawna (29:04):
on the road all the time, playing in

Exactly.
Yeah,

Shawna (29:08):
I look at it and I'm like, Oh, I talked to friends
that have that life.
And it's very lonely.

well, if you look at the older people who are
still in their career, right,who have a great measure of
success

Shawna (29:21):
the

of what they now do,

Shawna (29:24):
do

is sort of, you know, they put up with all those
things that we were, quoteunquote, aspiring to as now we
figure out

Shawna (29:32):
the,

them, they just were putting up with that to try
to get to the point that they'reat to afford themselves.
You know, the choices that theycould have when you, so when you
started, were you taking thissort of voice work as literally
a way to pay the bills inbetween as a, as perhaps I'm
making some bold assumptions asyou know, the alternative to
like getting a part time job atStarbucks or something or what

(29:56):
an artist does to sort of.
Keep paying the rent while theycontinue to try to build an
artistic career.
You are actually able to sort ofsupplement yourself still inside
of music that way.

Shawna (30:08):
Yeah, well, and it's funny because sometimes even
now, and it's wild because wewere talking back in 2008 about
me thinking I was too old andnow I'm still having that
conversation trying to do newthings and you just have to
realize that that question hasto be kind of irrelevant.

We won't use numbers in this conversation
today.
It's okay.

Shawna (30:30):
No, no, but it is one of those things where, you kind of
have to always be pushing theonly difference I think between
where how I push now and when Idid then is like, I was just
voracious, like, ferocious.
I just would do anything and Wasout every night and networking
continuously.
And through all of that, I hadthis opportunity really, really

(30:52):
early.
I think it was probably after Ireleased my first album, because
there was a song on that record,my 2008 record that got into the
hands of someone in a commercialhouse in Toronto.
And they messaged me and said,Hey, we really love this song.
And we want to try to make itwork for this commercial.
It was some kind of commercialsoap, something in the soap

(31:13):
world.
And, but they said to me, butit's not quite exactly what the
client wants.
And so I messaged and said,well, what does the client want?
And they said something likethey want it to be a bit more
Orchestral.
So in my young wanting to doanything mind, I brought in a
little mini orchestra borrow it.

(31:36):
Like I called in a couple offavors from people in Vancouver
and studios.
And I basically orchestratedthis huge sweeping piece and
sent it into the music house andwho I still work with, his name
is Brendan Quinn.
And he said to me somethinglike.
Wow.

(31:56):
This is amazing that you didthis.
It's not going to work out, butthe initiative you showed in
this, ever moved to Toronto, Iwill use you as often as I can.
so then that was also to go backto the earlier in the
conversation when I was weighingout, do I go to Toronto?
I had that rolling in the backof my head, like, well, I do
know that guy in the commercialworld who told me if I moved

(32:20):
here, because back then we weredoing a lot of singing in
studio, like we weren'trecording at home.
So I needed to be in Toronto.
so I moved to Toronto and that'show I started doing tons of
commercial work.
And one of Brendan's maincollaborators was David Arcus,
who's the person who I did Lilyand the Snowman with.
So you know how this works.

(32:40):
It's

It all comes together.

Shawna (32:42):
you, but you have to be continually trying to make those
connections, which thankfullywas very natural for me because
I'm outgoing and I'm a peopleperson.
now I have an understanding of,of empathy for people who are a
little bit more shy or a littlebit more homebody ish because I
don't want to go out as much.

(33:03):
but I do think you have to keepthat part of it alive because
that is kind of where theopportunities come is by meeting
people.

Yeah, I think that's a great point.
I mean, there's a couple ofthings in there I could call out
like, you know, just havingsomebody who said something like
that to you and followed through

Shawna (33:22):
Totally.

to feel like encouragement to anybody who's
encountering these conversationscurrently, I think, because it's
so hard to believe in ourindustry, whether someone who
throws out promises or, youknow, when, Something that might
feel like hyperbole actuallyfollows through with what they
said.
And it's currently even still apart of your life and your work

(33:44):
opportunities, which is likepretty amazing and pretty
fantastic.
I think the other interestingthing is just the willingness,
like seeing how it's impactedyour career and how it's giving
you opportunities and theopportunities it's afforded you
just.
To pursue artistic career as anartistic career, which is also

(34:06):
difficult to do because as soonas as soon as we decide to
charge somebody for our CD or orsell a ticket to a show.
Well, some become businesspeople and we.

Shawna (34:16):
hmm.

Submerged in the blending of two worlds.
So being able to choose, I thinkit actually enables you or has
probably enabled you to be morefree with your artistic career
as a result from something thathonestly, I think a lot of
people in our, in our industryand not just industry, not
industry people.

(34:37):
Actually, the artist circleshave carried a version of
judgment or snobbery, around.
Around those pursuits like it'slike as if there should be the
other right either go do that orbe an artist we're over here
trying to be pure artists forart sake and we're the real deal
man and I'll never forget thethe moment that a stake got put

(35:00):
through that in my life, whichwas Ryan Guldemond of Mother
Mother

Shawna (35:04):
Mm

is great Ted Talk on this now to on creativity and
his creative process, but hewould come to those peak
performance

Shawna (35:12):
Mm

boot camps and give this talk on his
creativity.
In the middle of it, he wouldstart talking about his examples
of his creative process aboutthe ethic behind it was actually
cased in him talking about howhe was writing jingles, and you
could just feel around the room.
This nervous tension of peoplewho are like, this guy's an

(35:34):
incredible artist.
And they, people didn't know howto handle the fact that he was
talking about how he has ajingle writing, a very
successful mind, you jingle,writing Career.
he's an incredibly prolificwriter and creator, and he was
talking about his process in theshape of, this is how I take
these ideas that are never goingto be mother, mother songs.

(35:54):
And I've turned them intojingles because I allow, I allow
the muse to To take its place totake its course and doesn't put
a judgment or a box on anycreative thought, which is
incredible.
And the career opportunities, Imean, mother, mother's done
quite well, don't get me wrong,but he also has created a whole

(36:16):
nother thing for himself.
That is incredible as a result.
And I think it's interesting theportion where that intersects
with your career and the waythat you've been able to do
that.
So,

Shawna (36:28):
I was just going to say I was there.
I was there for that talk thathe did because I was there

oh,

Shawna (36:34):
year at the peak

okay.

Shawna (36:35):
project.
And I remember in that talk,because I was doing commercial
work at the time, and there wasa massive snobbery back then,
especially back then.
Now.
People do anything for money.
We're all just trying tothrough.
But when we started, when Ifirst started, it was kind of
like you were considered a bitof a sellout to even have

Exactly.

Shawna (36:55):
used in a, in a car commercial or something.
And I remember listening to himand I remember sitting and
thinking, It felt like becausehe was so cool, and respected
from an artistic especially, itkind of took away any of the
shame that I was feeling becauseI was feeling a bit of that.

(37:16):
Like, I was like, oh, it's notreally cool for me to be doing
X, Y, and Z.
And when he said that, Irealized, oh, wow, you know, the
reality is, is like, What iscool?
Really?
We just have to do what makes ushappy.
I also remember when Carly RaeJepsen first started releasing
music and everyone kind of waslike, oh, it's so poppy, blah,

(37:40):
blah, blah, like kind of liketurning their nose up at it.
And then Call Me Maybe happens.
And then all of a sudden, allthese like hipster boys are
like, Oh yeah, like it's socool.
I just think all of this shiftsand turns on a dime.
So you really do just have torealize that

Was I a hipster boy?
Please tell me.
I wasn't a hipster boy at thattime.

Shawna (38:03):
Do you want me to say you're a hipster boy?
Because I also know thatsometimes people like that.
I never thought that.
I'll tell you, you were never,there's some, there's obviously
a stereotype in that with alittle bit of snobbery and
you've never been snobby.
but I just, I am, I fully agreewith Ryan and with you in the
sense that.

(38:23):
There isn't a scarcity withcreativity.
Creativity feeds into itself.
And I know a lot of reallytalented musicians that make
commercials and we haveconversations.
And I think the, the, the, theimportant thing for everyone is
if you're only makingcommercials, that can actually
start to feel

Mm-hmm

Shawna (38:43):
Because there is like, it's formulaic in a way, and it
doesn't allow for maybe as muchartistic expression.
So those writers need to find anoutlet.
So sometimes I'm like, well,let's do something different.
Let's go write, write a songtogether.
But then I also work withartists that are just kind of
doing their own thing.
And they're kind of like, I wantto know what it's like to write

(39:03):
a pop song.
So I think we just have to allknow that we need to be able to
be fluid and merge between

Thank you.

Shawna (39:10):
because that's what makes us stronger musicians as
well.

Yeah, I think out in the public, there's a
familiar rhetoric, I think of,you know, like the big, we're
talking about the big stars andthe stories of them bringing a
song to the label or theexecutives for the next record,
you know, it's been sort ofcharacterized, I think, in TV
and movies sometimes, right,bringing this sort of more

(39:35):
artistic expression, and then itgets totally slammed because
they're like, why would youchange the formula?
We figured out on the lastrecord how to sell.
5 million copies, right?
Why would you possibly do this?
I think that exists on thesmaller, regular, like growth
early stages trajectory as well,right?
When you may encounter in yourown local community, Music

(39:59):
circles the same level ofsnobbery or rejection, or the
very first time you go tosomebody who's established and
they try to tell you what youshould be or shouldn't be and
all of that experience.
So, you've had, obviously, aswe've already talked about, like
a pretty lengthy career of,Being a singer and being an
artist and a singer songwriterand putting out your own music

(40:21):
as well as these other things AsI sort of even alluded to
earlier I think there's theobvious unique pressures that a
woman has to face unfortunatelyin an industry that has been
built and ruled by very sexistmores by men.
and encountering that youprobably need to look this way
or what you were feeling when wefirst met of,

Shawna (40:43):
Yep.

see, I don't see any observational version of
acceptance of a woman gettingolder when she's starting her
career, right?
There's supposed to be youth isking, vibrancy, all of these
things we encounter.
And you've worked withInterestingly to me, I love when
I trace through your music isthe variance of collaboration,

(41:06):
which is a big part of music andmusic making, I think, and even
becoming increasingly so overthe last decade, this version of
collaboration that differentgenres brought out and now sort
of applies.
across all kinds of genres.
So you've had a really widerange of collaboration, which
would be great to chat about fora second about how that's

(41:26):
influenced your own stylisticchoices.
But I'm wondering to the pointwe were just making, did you
face times either in thosecollaborations or in maybe with
The, the team I will call it orwhoever you were working with or
for to get your recordsproduced, was there influences
trying to be made on you aboutthe kinds of choices you had to

(41:49):
make and need to make for yourown career?
And how did you, I don't knowwhether there's some that are
really obvious for you to pluckout and how you navigate those
from the position that you hadto navigate them.
Okay.

Shawna (42:01):
Yeah creatively i don't I, I feel i had a lot of
Pressure.
luckily..
I think because I was like in amore alternative pop world, I
think if I was really, reallystraight down the middle, top 40
pop, I do think that there'smore pressure there for things
to be a certain way.
because I was a little bit morealternative in my pop.

(42:24):
I think I was allowed to exploremy creativity in my own way, but
there was a ton of pressure onwhat I looked like.
especially because when Istarted like being curvy in any
way, it was just weird.
I was always like the curtperson ever on any stage.
I think like it, it's wildbecause back I wish I, I wish
again retro.

(42:45):
I wish I could go back and justcomfort myself then, because I
just feel so differently aboutit.
But back then it really did feellike.
would come up to me and, and saylike, how inspiring it was to
see a person of my size onstage.
And And I just remember feelinglike it was like a, a compliment

(43:06):
because I, I felt like therewere women who were

I believe back at that's a heavily.
Hmm.

Shawna (43:14):
any kind of insult.
I actually genuinely think therewere women that were, this was
kind of before the bodypositivity movement, so it, that
would be like the very beginningstages where someone would come
up and be like, I.
Seeing you on stage makes mefeel like I can be on that.
I can do something, but I don'tthink I was in a place to
receive that, in a way thatdidn't immediately make me very

(43:36):
aware of how I looked.

Yeah.

Shawna (43:39):
so that was more of a struggle.
I, I had conversations withmusic people.
There are jobs I didn't getbecause of the way I looked.
There were, of money put intolike personal training and like
just stuff to try to get me tolook a certain way.

Yeah.

Shawna (43:55):
probably more of the pressure I felt artistically.
Thankfully, I felt like I wasable to go in and make whatever
records I wanted and collaboratewith whoever I wanted.
And because I had a level oftalent, I think that was trusted
within my community.
I didn't ever feel like peoplefelt like they needed to kind of
intervene.
which I'm grateful

The market you.
Right.

Shawna (44:18):
me was

Marketing you were the people that you were
probably encountering.

Shawna (44:23):
Yes, it was marketing me and I think also to go back to
what we were just talking about,I was very hard to market in
general because I was kind ofpop, but kind of not.
I was.
Looked like a rock star butdidn't like, I had all these
like almost things so everyonewould be like, ah, we don't
really know what to do with you.

(44:44):
Like even trying to get anagent, were just like, we just
don't really get, we don't knowwhere to put you.
We already have, and it's funnybecause Hannah George's is a
great friend of mine and we'vekind of like laughed at this but
I remember back then there waslike this, a lot of like, well,
we already have George's.

(45:05):
I was like, Hannah and I are sodifferent.
Like stylistically we're verydifferent.
I mean, we're similar in thesense that we do alternative, an
alternative form of, of pop insome way.
But her and me are, I was waymore el She was way more like
cool and like we were just sodifferent.
But it's almost like theindustry just was like, it's not

(45:28):
this and it's not that, thenyeah.
So

Doors, the entry points, the doorways that
marketing will sell somebody tothe public, Are singular at
best.

Shawna (45:42):
Yes,

going to be labeled.
So from a marketer perspective,I have a female who is not
mainstream, but has wide popularappeal.
I only need one of those.
Cause I don't think I have moreappetite than that in the market
for one.
So they don't give a shit aboutyou or your music or your art.

(46:05):
They, you know, it's almostlike, I feel like.
She got here first and it'sreally unfair and I think we
sort of have those, I, I, that,I doubt that that's gone away in
the music business or, or isanytime soon, despite different
versions of democratizationthat's happened.
So,

Shawna (46:23):
way, but there's way more now.
There's way more, which I love.
There's so much more diversity.
There's people of all differentshapes and sizes and ethnicities
and sexual orientations andgender identities.
I mean, it's just like, it's sowidespread now, that, that's
exciting.
But you are right.
Like maybe even in our widerspread, there might, they may

(46:46):
only need one.
To represent that group, so we,instead of going from three, we
maybe have 12, but still do,there's still kind of like a
niche that's trying to befilled, and once they fill it,
they don't necessarily need tohave anyone else.
Yeah.

So let's, let's, let me jump back on the
collaboration or thecollaborators that you've worked
with really quickly, because Iwould just like to hear what
your experience was in yourartistic development then and
the role that they played,because you often will hear
really one of two versions,which is, this person sort of

(47:22):
steered me a little harder intheir direction and either
they're not proud of their, backcatalog with certain
collaborators or that personsteered me in a direction that
opened me up to these newopportunities and it changed my
life.
And it doesn't ever feel likeit's lukewarm in between.
And you've had some, you know,Hockley Workman is, has had an

(47:43):
incredible career and hiscreative impact, I think, and
artistic impact has been veryevident.
And you got to work with himearly on.
And then some of the people,Maximilian Jäger.
So more recently, so you've hadsome people who have great
creative impact and you've beenable to work with.

(48:05):
I'm interested in how you feltthat impacted your own sort of
artistic, exploration and thenexpression and sort of maybe I
guess what I'm really asking isthe authenticity.
Did you feel in retrospect,you've got the authentic thing
you, you probably needed orwanted at the time?

Shawna (48:24):
Yeah, collaboration, especially when you come from
like a, as a singer songwriter.
You know, I, I had never writtena song with anyone, and all of
my music was very, you know,personal as it tends to be in a
singer-songwriter genre.
And so I was not supercomfortable with collaboration
at first, especially when itcame to lyrics.

(48:45):
I, I still feel that lyrically Idon't collaborate a ton.
On with people, with my ownmusic.
When I write music for otherpeople, or I'm working with like
young songwriters, that havedeals and they're kind of
starting to collect, collectmusic to choose for a first
record or something, I'll writewith, with those people.
And, and I love that process.

(49:06):
I love the process of sittingdown with like a 25, 20
5-year-old or a 20-year-old andjust being like, okay, let's
find a way to explore yourworld.
But when it came to my.
Own I, I'm very connected to thelyrics kind of coming from me,
but that being said, I had alsonever collaborated musically
with anyone before, and that hasbeen an amazing journey that I

(49:30):
still love.
Like I almost hardly ever writealone now.
Like musically.
I just feel like there's so manyincredible skill sets that
people can bring to my worldmusically that it feels.
Crazy to not see what we canmake if we just get together one

(49:51):
night or in the afternoon and,and just see what happens.
So that has been a beautifulsurprise and has really
stretched me in differentdirections stylistically and
kind of allowed me to learn alot of different techniques and
things.
And I also am totally open to, Imight, maybe I should try
working with a poet.
Like I also think that that'sstill one area and I haven't
fully unlocked.
The music piece was easy tounlock because I was surrounded

(50:14):
by incredible musicians.
And obviously I've known a lotof amazing lyricists, but I also
feel like it was a little bitmore normal for the songwriters
to kind of like write the wordsand then we would all
collaborate on the music.
but I'm open to it.
That might be a fun thing to tryto learn.
Yeah.

That's kind of cool.
So, so I, okay, let you, youtalked about the lyrics and you
talked about, that's always beena very cool thing.
Strictly you thing, and I guessthis is really a segue to what I
think is what has become thebiggest part of your story,
which I think is amazing.
And maybe if I regret anythingabout how we've kind of lost

(50:54):
touch over the years, is thatthis transition for you that I
didn't get to be part of it.

Shawna (51:00):
Oh,

Oh, I got emotional.

Shawna (51:03):
you're gonna make me emotional.
We're gonna start crying.
You can be a part of it now.

So, you know, the record, Modern Romantics with
Hoxley, there's lyrics in there.
You become very quickly a verysensual songwriter, right?
You allow that to be expressed.
And so let's go back to framingthings.
That's 2000, you're writing thatin 2010, you're recording,

(51:29):
releasing 2011.
This is your second record.
you and I had only met a coupleof years ago.
And if I'm not mistaken, goingback to our first conversations
about where we met, one of theother things I think we were
bonded as that's when youidentified to me.
That you were bi, that you werebisexual.
And that was your, I wasn't thefirst person, but I know that

(51:52):
that was in the time frame ofyou first releasing that to your
inner circle.

Shawna (51:57):
Yeah.
It only took 10 years for me to

Well, that's

Shawna (52:00):
else.

interesting.
I don't know how all of thatplayed out.
I know that was a big part ofour talk.
I know.

Shawna (52:08):
Yeah.

You, you sort of referenced like, did we hang out
in a hotel in Edmonton?
And I said, I think it was inRegina.
Cause I remember I was therewith my best friend, Greg,
right.
The filmmaker from Vancouver.
And he was in our hotel roomdoing video all night.
And I was, you were goingthrough something.
I don't remember what it was,but I was just hanging out with
you in your room for a longtime.

(52:29):
And it was related to that.
And.
Also tying back in coming fromevangelical circles and you've
got a lot out there for peopleto read and see what your
journey has been and you'vetalked so beautifully and
gracefully and openly aboutthis, about your own version of
coming out.
The version of coming out firstcomes with understanding

(52:52):
yourself, accepting yourself.
Identifying yourself with who,as you use the term, your found
family and the people around youthat you need to go forward with
this, right?
I remember getting to see someof the start of it, but how that
makes its way into your artisticself too.
We have this public self and youallow yourself as an artist to

(53:13):
be a public persona.
You're, you're Adaline.
Right.
You've, you've got a performancename and then there's Shawna and
you're the same person.
you're sort of carrying the samethings and different things
sometimes is what that means, Ithink, as an artist.
And so I'm interested becauseall the way back in your second

(53:37):
album, you're allowing sort ofthis authenticity of yourself to
come out in your lyrics.
Yeah.
Right.
Nobody's guiding you andnobody's shaping that.
And now I know you're dealingwith all of this at the same
time.
Can you just talk to me aboutthat evolution and what that

(53:58):
felt like?

Shawna (53:59):
Yeah, you are very sweet and very warm, so thank you.
yeah, I mean you get this too'cause you came from the same
world I think, like trying tounderstand your sexuality and I.
Your body is really, reallydifficult when you grow up in
worlds that make you feeldisconnected from it.

(54:21):
especially as a woman, I feltlike it was, I had a very
complicated relationship with mybody.
and then I get into thisindustry that gives me an even
more complicated relationshipwith my body.
so I was very disconnected fromit.
I remember, this is such a wildstory.
don't think I've ever told thisstory in a podcast before.

(54:41):
here we go.

Thanks.
Exclusive, Sean.
I appreciate it.
That's such a

Shawna (54:51):
when I was sort of working on modern romantics and
really starting to try tounderstand who I was sexually
and, and.
Try to understand how I wantedto live my life and, and how I
wanted to connect with otherpeople.
I was still very much going tochurch and there was a, know, I
just won't even say his namethat way.
I, he, he won't.
He's, he's a kind of a famousperson, so I'll, it's probably

(55:12):
better for me to leave it out,but that's part of why it makes,
that's part of what makes it sowild.
but I'll leave it out.
this person came up to me aftera service and said that he had
gotten this like, very strongmessage from God, that he wanted
to share with me, but it wasvery sensitive.
It was a sensitive topic.

(55:32):
So he asked if he could speak tome after church, so he went.
after church.
And he said, you know, becauseof the sensitive nature of this,
I'm gonna bring my wife.
so now I was like, what ishappening?
So we go,

thing to do.

Shawna (55:48):
So we go outside and, and he said, you know, I was,
during the service, I just feltlike this.
that God wanted me to share withyou, that God wants you to feel
free to and release yoursexuality through your music.
Like that, that should be aconduit.
that that should be a part ofwho you are, your who you are

(56:11):
sexually and, and.
you're thinking and workingthrough is all a part of who you
are and whether you arereligious or not.
one of the hardest things aboutcoming from a religious space is
that you're, you're neglectingthis sort of key part of who you
are.
And so I.
I felt a bit of permission inthat sense to go and start to

(56:34):
write more provocative lyrics.
I mean, it was a little awkwardwith family when they're hearing
these, you know, keep me high,which is off of,

Yeah.

Shawna (56:45):
modern Romantics, which has really done, it's been
amazing.
I've gotten that into lots ofincredible shows and things.
in, in love in like sex scenesand things.
But it was sort of really likeme being like, what does this
feel like?
What does it feel like for me toexplore this and express this?
so in that record, I really gotto start feeling that out.

(57:07):
And was kind of, yeah, of thefirst time me embracing the fact
that I am a sexual being, I am aflirtatious human, which I
always have been.
and to, to not feel all of theshame and guilt that.

Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Yeah.

Shawna (57:28):
And then of course, in this last record.
I took it a step further in thesense that, wasn't just
exploring, you know, sexuality,I was actually like, kind of
unveiling the reality that I wasbisexual.
and I wanted the music to kindof be a part of that journey
because in 2020 my album, dearIllusion, I had released a song

(57:52):
on there that had kind of likespilled the beans and.
So it felt appropriate for me tofollow up with something that
was like a little bit more like,here's the real truth.
Here's really what I've beengrappling with.
Here's what it's been like to bea minister's kid and to be
bisexual and my brain, and tryto like, think of dismantling my

(58:16):
entire family and embarrassingthem and alienating everyone.
And my, my, my brother is apastor and embarrassing him and
losing my nephews, I mean.
The, the spiral is wild in yourbrain.
So that was why I thought, Ifelt like I needed to write a
record to kind of give a voicefor a lot of those feelings that
so many people

Yeah.
This might be slightly personal,but was there therapy involved
over those years?
Like how did you find, how didyou find your voice for that?
How did you find courage forthat?
And even more when you'retalking about, you know, you're
like, I don't want to embarrassmy brother.
I don't want to embarrass myfamily.
I mean.

(58:57):
Like, let's, let's set asideeven you trying to figure out
how to come out and when thattiming would be in your life and
what's right for you.
Just what you're talking about,the expressing of your
sexuality, right?
As a, as a woman in song in oursociety and putting that out
there, which is extremelyvulnerable.

Shawna (59:18):
Yeah.

even before that, like you're wrestling with these
things and whether, and you'restarting to own things that you.
Probably a therapist would tellyou, you shouldn't be owning,
right?
I'm wondering, I'm wonderinghow, you know, you navigated
that.
I think, I think this isrelatable to everybody.

(59:39):
Like, how did you navigate theshame, feelings, the guilt, the
owning of what I'm doing toother people just by accepting
who I am and being Open aboutit.
Like

Shawna (59:51):
Yeah,

what were the, what were the things that kind
of got you over that, thatmountain?

Shawna (59:57):
that is such a good question because the answer,
which is so wild, is I had zerotherapy through that time, but
now I am in immersive intensetherapy,

Glen Erickson (01:00:05):
Hmm.

Shawna (01:00:07):
I feel, I feel like what happened is I was exploring
these things and there was ahigher part of me and, and
wonderful friends and people Iknew in the L-G-B-T-Q community
that were guiding me throughsome of these things that I was
able to process alongside them,which was helpful.

(01:00:29):
And then when released ghost.
This crazy thing happened whereI had the song on a TV show.
It connected with a ton ofpeople.
I started getting messages frompeople all over the world, kind
of like reconciling theirsexuality and their
spirituality.
And from that I was able tostart a nonprofit and the

(01:00:51):
nonprofit community we spent,we've, it's been around now for
four years.
In the first three years, I wasliterally in group sessions with
hundreds of religious

Mm-hmm.

Shawna (01:01:04):
religious or former religious LGBTQ plus people.
And so we were just having thesechats, which is a form of
therapy.
It was like we were able to besee, oh, this is, this is how we
people please.
Wow, that's a.
Big common denominator forpeople from religious worlds.
A lot of people pleasing, a lotof lack of boundaries.

(01:01:25):
so in that sense I was like, oh,I can see that.
I can see that.
But because I was leading thisgroup, there was a piece of me
that felt like I needed to haveit together them.
Not that they asked me to, butagain, minister's kid.
I went straight into like.
Now this is like my newministry, quote

leadership.
Yeah.

Shawna (01:01:48):
Yes.
Because I was so used to beingin that role that I think that I
was processing some of it, butthere was like chunks of it that
I wasn't, and then when I wrotehymnal, that was another way.
That record was another way forme to process it.
But recently, like within thelast six months, I have realized

(01:02:11):
deep.
Unprocessed trauma that I am nowfour years in to coming out or,
and letting everybody know thatI'm just, now I have a therapist
and we're working through it'cause it's sneaky and there's
layers.

(01:02:31):
There's layers that you don'teven see.
And then you're having theselike.
Responses that I have now foundwords for, like I have these
responses that I've neverunderstood and I have someone
saying to me, well, that's atrauma response.
Like you doing this, you feelinglike everything needs to be all
good or all bad is a traumaresponse because you came

Okay.

Shawna (01:02:52):
a world where everything was black and white and I feel
uncomfortable with things notbeing black and white.
So there's all these littlethings

Yeah.

Shawna (01:03:02):
realizing I have to work through.
Yeah.

No, you're right.
Like, Shawna, I'm 54 when in theyear 2000, when I turned 30, I
had been working at the churchfor five years and I quit the
church.
And for lots of reasons, and Ivery soon after did the still a
pastoral.
I formed a small group of likeminded people who felt

(01:03:28):
disenfranchised, called it OpenConversation, and I wanted to
lead that charge.
And I let that unravel becauseit was not meant to be, and it
was not the right thing.
And my whole life has beenpulling those threats till now,
but I'm And I still amidentifying religious trauma

(01:03:49):
from those things.
And I don't say that and I andI'm sure you would agree with
me.
I don't say that to demean thepeople who have been in my life
and who believe and lovewholeheartedly.
like that path and theircommunities, right?
not at all, but the fact is Ihave deep residual patterns

(01:04:11):
earned based on that.
And you're right.
The, the black or whiteness, theacceptance of things, the
release of shame, And guilt is aforever pattern if in your youth
and formative years that, andagain, this isn't only to people
in religious circles, it's justa fact of life that all therapy

(01:04:32):
is teaching us that, you know,the things that happen in our
formative years are there withus.
That child is with us into ouradulthood, and it's just a
matter of when you decide to goand confront it, right?
So, nowhere near on the scale ofwhat you've had to experience or
accept about yourself, butRelatedly, I can remember, you

(01:04:57):
know, my sweet mom, the firsttime she found me with
pornography.
And, I've never told this storyeither.
So here we go.
I'll never forget, you know, andit was a guy's magazines that he
asked if I could hide.
And of course, I did.
I was so curious.
I was more than willing to hidethem.
And I brought them home, wentoff to a sleepover after like a
church youth group event andcome home.

(01:05:19):
And my mom had cleaned my roomand found this.
So here's, here's what is whythat's an indelible memory is
that she used the phrase abouthow it makes her feel as a
woman.

Shawna (01:05:34):
Right.

I'm not, I'm not going to like step into that or
her experience, but those wordswere also framed from a
religious church goingupbringing.
and immediately left me withshame

Shawna (01:05:48):
Yes.

for my life around a natural curiosity

Shawna (01:05:53):
Yep.

everybody should have.
I'm not making any statements orjudgment on that industry or the
effects that it has on peopleand addictions.
I'm just saying the naturalhuman curiosity of an
adolescent.
So, But it was, it's so deeplyhoused in the religious thing.
So I, you know, those thingsstay with us so deep until we

(01:06:14):
get there.
And so I love that you are sowilling to talk about that and
share that your song, by theway, ghost, it's going to sound
like I just have guests on mypodcast so I can blow smoke up
their ass, but that has to be.
One of the most incredible songsI've ever heard.

Shawna (01:06:35):
Oh, thank.

One of the ones that still the vocal performance
is, I can't imagine anybodysinging that song better.
I'm not just, I'm sincerely justnot trying to butter you up.
I, I would, I would be so proudto play that anytime, anywhere
to somebody and say, this is oneof the greatest vocal.
sets of choices around such apowerful song and the

(01:06:58):
arrangement is incredible and Ican see why it had such Impact
on that show right on on theWinona Earp.
Is that that's the show that ithad that significant moment on

Shawna (01:07:08):
That's the show.
Yeah.

Yeah, so

Shawna (01:07:11):
Thank you.

has how has that I'm wondering where If we can
intersect again the personalShawna with Adaline

Shawna (01:07:20):
Mm-hmm.

as the difference between songs on modern
romantics, not dismissing yourother work in between, but I
feel like I can tie a threadbetween those, which I felt was
so outgoing and coming out ishon modern romantics, even in
your expression and artisticchoices.
But it felt like at that time,in my perspective, it's like you
were like pulling all of thisnoise around you.

(01:07:44):
And making this big scene.
And then I listened to ghost ina couple of the other songs,
like waist, waist down and stuffon, on that album.
And it feels like such a morerealized artist and you're in
front and you are the scene, youare the noise.
And so how did that help youturn that corner?
Cause it's so interesting, likein sync with these deeply

(01:08:08):
personal transitions.

Shawna (01:08:10):
Hmm.
That's a good question.
Well, first thank you forsharing what you did about your
childhood.
Before I answer that question, Ijust wanna just touch on what
you said and, and sort of.
Let everyone know, especially ifthey don't know that it's
especially intense when you area pastor's child you know, your,

(01:08:31):
your mother and your father areleaders of the church.
And because there's a weirdthing that happens where

Hmm.

Shawna (01:08:37):
is feel even more connected to God.
like, it's like they, their,they're there.
My father was.
My father, but also my spiritualleader.
and so there was like a blurringthere.
and it's also hard as an adultwhen I have religious trauma for
me not to feel like I wannaprotect him because he's not my

(01:08:58):
sole source of it.
It was all around me in manydifferent ways.
So I just wanted to

It's a good point.

Shawna (01:09:04):
Yeah, I just wanted to touch on that'cause I just was
listening to you thinking that'sespecially hard when you're a
pastor's kid.
but yeah, the.
Modern Romantics.
I would agree that I think thatin dear illusion, and that's
just a natural thing as you're,you're an artist.
I was much more confident.
I had been doing it for a longtime and I think I had really

(01:09:25):
embraced, I.
ballot, embraced the, the art ofsort of having these like really
soft moments where you kind ofstrip away the noise.
I think it's funny'cause there'sa song on romantics called The
Noise.
yeah.
I was a lot noisier.
I was a big Radiohead fan and I,I I loved like these like
cacophony, like layered

I thought I always thought, do you ever hear
blonde redhead

Shawna (01:09:52):
Yes,

era?
That's where I connected.
Sorry, I interrupted, but that'sthe connection that was made.

Shawna (01:09:59):
So good.
Yeah, just like very likebeautiful textural sounds.
I mean, some people are justmasters at doing it and I, when
I, when I made, modernromantics, I think that I.
The sound of it was like reallyimportant.
Like I feel like that was sortof my focus.
I mean, obviously it meant whatI was singing, but with dear
illusion, it did feel like thelyrics, what I was trying to

(01:10:23):
say, what I wanted people tofeel was very much more the
intention.
And then the music became, youknow, the conduit for that
intention and.
not necessarily better than theothers.
In fact, I listen to like a lotof instrumental music.
I love cigarro, like I love, Idon't know what he's saying.
but it evokes such an intenseemotional moment for me.

Great reference.

Shawna (01:10:47):
like.
One's better than the other.
It's just that it was importantfor me, even when I went to make
hymnal, I had this idea of whatI wanted it sound like, and I
kind of wanted it to sound like,like a Jamie xx record.
Like have like this like coolkind of palsy thing in the
background.
And then, and when Chris Codyand I started working on hymnal,

(01:11:09):
it became so clear that it'slike this record isn't about
what it sounds like.
Like

Mm

Shawna (01:11:15):
isn't, this isn't what that is.
In fact, the next one might be,I might just wanna do a really
cool dance record.
Who knows?

hmm.

Shawna (01:11:22):
hymnal felt like the words really mattered because it
was a follow up to me.
Sharing about this, there wasthis community of people that
had formed, I had been listeningto their stories and, and
drawing inspiration from theirwords.
And that's why hymnal opens withlittle snippets of their voices,
like lyrics are king thatrecord.

(01:11:43):
So I think that also cancontribute to why like things
sound different.
but yeah, I wanted really, very,very much for the words to kind
of like lead those records.

Yeah, I mean, I, I sort of, you know, a little
tongue in cheeky of sort ofreferenced the evolution of
artists.
Adaline with personal life ofShawna, right?
but and then maybe it feelssometimes if we're, you know,
doing like retrospectives ortalking about the way a public
looks at an artist in your life,it's easy to sort of talk in two

(01:12:16):
different lines, I think.
But I guess what's interesting,and that's why I wanted sort of
your input and answer about howyou developed to that point.
And, and you just described areally great synergy just in in
who you are.
Like, it doesn't sound likethere's a difference.
And I wrote the line down lastnight when I was thinking about
this.

(01:12:37):
At what point did you mayberealize that your personal life
evolution actually was yourcareer development?
You know,

Shawna (01:12:46):
I don't know.
I,

was it the era of a ghost?
Is it, did it come together oris it just a blurred line over
time for you?

Shawna (01:12:54):
blurred line.
I think also it just reallydepends on the genre of music
you're in.
Like I often, I have friendsthat are, they make more like
party music or rock and roll.
And so for them it's likethey're think they're singing
about like a good time on aFriday night.
I think in those they, they kindof have more separation between
their, their inner world, but Ithink.

(01:13:15):
Because of the songwriting thatI do, it was always very like,
you know, emotive and, andorchestral.
It always kind of drew outthese, this importance for me to
just really share who I am.
and I think that's why when Iwrote Ghost, I never planned on
anyone hearing it.
Like I didn't think anyone wouldhear that song because I knew by

(01:13:36):
releasing ghosts that I wouldhave to come out, It was just
so, so, so raw, lyrically, andwanna put it out.
And I realized I couldn't be asongwriter anymore if I was
gonna have to continuallyshield, because I.
The kind of music I like to make

Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.

Shawna (01:14:03):
don't always have to pull from my own life like I'm
pulling, I can pull from otherthings or, or what I observe
around me, but I've also, in avery selfish way, always found
writing to be such anincredible, cathartic that
really allows me to, to see.
You know, to, to actually getout of the fog and be like, oh,

(01:14:23):
this is what I'm feeling.
So in some ways it's like,partly, it's partly why Taylor
Swift is so popular.
I mean, it's just, you know,diary, diary writing.
It's like, I wanna try to figureout who I am.
So in that sense, I think theline's always been blurred.
It became very obvious that thiswas part of the journey when I
was having to like, sort ofunveil things that had potential

(01:14:44):
consequences

Yeah.

Shawna (01:14:46):
my family, for, you know, the people in my life, for
my, my manager.
Like people that reliedpotentially on me having a
career.
you know, the, it ups the antewhen you're about to like, kind
of disclose parts that arereally personal.

I think there's also in there, there's a little
nice piece of insight for peoplewho are songwriters or aspiring
songwriters or creators likethat, that you sort of alluded
to because we often do this in acathartic way.
Thing and a lot of people talkabout it that way.
It's very common.
I think it's more often thannot, but it's also So exhausting

(01:15:24):
and if you don't learn as acreative person, right?
how to just disciplinecreativity without having to tap
into the deep wells that aredifficult to navigate I think
yeah, I don't know.
I think that's great Advice andjust how you've learned that
over time and been able toexpress that I do want to just

(01:15:47):
maybe bookend a little bit ofour conversation about your own
personal like development inyour story.
And, you know, you eventuallycame out and you went and you.
You know, I've read about it,how you went and saw your family
and what that moment was like,which inspired the song at the

(01:16:07):
end of your hymnal record, whichis beautiful by the way.
And,

Shawna (01:16:11):
Yeah.

and that is such a wonderful story.
And like you alluded to thecommunity that's come out of it
and that you've been a part of,essentially leading this
community.
and it's the bad believercommunity.
And I, it would be a big mistakeif I didn't at least pause to
make sure.
You could tell people listeninghow to connect with that

(01:16:32):
community.

Shawna (01:16:34):
Yeah.
So yeah, bad believer isbasically a community for anyone
who is LGBTQ plus that comesfrom kind of religious home or
religious world.
You know, sometimes we grow upin parts of the world where
religion is, is just a part ofculture as well.
so.

(01:16:54):
A lot of people that come intoour nonprofit space, there's
often a feel of, because we usethe word religious trauma, I
think that sometimes peoplethink there needs to be like
this really intense story

Mm hm.

Shawna (01:17:06):
like they are allowed or have permission to be a part of
it.
But we often are lettingeveryone know, like if there's
ever been a moment in your lifewhere there's been any kind of
like shame that has felt likeit's from a message that God is.
Angry or, or disgraced or thatyou don't, that you're no longer

(01:17:27):
able or, or deserving to have arelationship with God.
that those sort of narrativesare things that we dismantle.
And the whole idea with badbeliever is not for people to
believe anything.
we have.
We, you know, we still do havepeople who identify as Christian
or whatever, you know, differentreligions, but we also also have
a lot of people who are atheistsand pagan.

(01:17:48):
So it's, it's not so much aboutwhat you believe, it's more that
you feel that you have thepermission to

Mm hm.
Mm hm.

Shawna (01:18:01):
and that's why, you know, our whole tag of our
organization is that yourspiritual life is your
birthright because a lot ofqueer people don't feel like
they're allowed.
To connect in that way.
So if you're someone who is, youknow, lgbtq plus and, and sort
of feels like there arenarratives there to dismantle
and work through and parts ofyour spiritual life that you

(01:18:23):
wanna explore, that, that's whatbad believers for.
And you can find us, at Badbeliever.org.
And then we're also on Instagramat Bad Believer Community.

Okay.
I'm glad you said all that.
That's really important.
I know a lot of people, ofcourse, right, would identify
with that struggle, you know,not so immersive as you and I
experienced, you know, havingbeen part of a family that was,
you know, anchored in so deeply,but just, you know, The amount
of people that just, you know,went to church or their family

(01:18:56):
had strong religious ties orgroups and sometimes it's deeply
generational and sometimes it'sjust slightly servicey, but
there's tons of intersect andtons of stories and, I just want
to say thank you, yourvulnerability and willingness to
share your story.
You've been sharing it a lot ina lot of places and, I'm so

(01:19:16):
proud of you and, you've alwaysmade me a very happy person and
filled me with joy whenever I'maround you and, After so long,
you know, this has been just anincredible hour plus to spend
with you.
And, but I just, I, I need tosay two things.
One is I think that you're suchan incredible artist and I'm

(01:19:37):
proud of the work you've done asan artist and that you keep
doing it.
And you sort of mentioned sortof the humorous, but incredibly
accurate name I chose for thepodcast.
And it's, for obvious reasons.
but I'm inspired by the peoplewho have stayed with it because,
it's just speak so much to whoyou are.

(01:19:57):
And, there's so much that Ithink people, if they just go
and find you, and if they havebeen following you can be so,
inspired by and so I hopeeverybody will because you've
been inspiring for me and Andthe other half obviously that I
just really appreciate the graceand humility But still the
tenacity and the willingness totake responsibility in the

(01:20:19):
community that you've become apart of and I think that's a
beautiful example, too, both inour artistic and, and musical
communities, and then thecommunities we find ourselves
in, in general, in large.
So, both just incredibleexamples, and I'm really proud
that we still get to call eachother friends.
Ha, ha, ha.

(01:20:40):
Ha, ha, ha.
Ha, ha, ha.
Ha, ha, ha.
Ha, ha, ha.

Shawna (01:20:44):
It's gonna be like what gets me outta bed in the
morning.
On a, I mean, thank you.
I, I think what we do is it canbe very difficult, it can be
very hard to feel, especiallynow with social media and
things.
It can be very hard to know, youknow, how much you know, should
I keep doing this?
Like, does it matter?
and I think that it goes backto.

(01:21:07):
Us sharing our stories and, andbeing creative and, and just
knowing that that's a beautifulpart of being human, that we get
to continue to explore.
And I'm kind of, of the mind nowthat this next group of songs
that I write that I justfinished writing, That I'm, I'm
sort of at peace with it.
If no one hears them, that Istill know that it's important

(01:21:28):
for me just to continue to becreative, and that not every
creative endeavor we do has tobe some kind of productive, big
marketing splash.
Like sometimes it's good just toremind ourselves to create
without intention.

Yeah.
It doesn't have to be a pin onthe trajectory of your skyrocket
to something.

Shawna (01:21:51):
No, and I think that the thing that I realized through
Ghost and through that is thestuff that I plan out is never
the stuff that lands anyways.
Do,

Hmm.

Shawna (01:22:03):
do you know what I mean?
Like,

Yeah, that's great.

Shawna (01:22:05):
it's, it's better just to, to write and, and be as
authentic as possible.
And, you know, if you're a veryvulnerable songwriter, that
involves sharing parts of yourlife.
And if you're a jam band, thatjust means creating like a
groove that you love and, and,and to just keep putting that
out there.
And that's, that authenticityconnects with people, but it's,
it's sometimes we can get.
Go off course when we try reallyhard to kind of force something.

(01:22:28):
So

Yeah.
Okay.
Okay.
Okay.

(01:22:52):
Okay.

Shawna (01:22:59):
lay our heads down on the, we don't have to feel
embarrassed or feel like we haveto, any kind of shame or guilt
about not making it quoteunquote, but that we

Yeah.

Shawna (01:23:09):
realize the value that we have in our more, you know,
quiet careers where, you know,we, if, if you can touch one
person, that that means

Yeah.
That's exactly it.
Mm.

Shawna (01:23:31):
and, and, and tired and frustrated and a little bit, I
don't wanna say embarrassed, Idon't know if that's the right
word, but like what?
What, I'm sure you've thought ofthis with your podcast.
What are some of the words thatyou use?

Yeah, I think that there's, a sense of,
belonging because we're alwaysin a, in a validation game and
cycle and this sense of do Ireally belong or how long do I
have

Shawna (01:23:59):
Mm-hmm.

And am I only as good as the last good thing that
got posted on social media?
And how long will that carry meon to the next one?
And if it's all about the hustleand grind, do I really have what
it takes?
takes.
And I think there's just allthese things that just get hung
on us like heavy weights aroundour neck.

(01:24:20):
And, I think hearing storieslike yours are easy to identify
with.
I hope there's points and piecesright that people like you
talked about at the verybeginning, you know, about the
backhanded compliment, but atleast some people were trying to
say that they felt seen just byyou stepping in front and
stepping out.
And, I think that that's,there's lots of ways that can

(01:24:43):
happen.
And I just hope that maybethrough conversations like this,
which I love, Maybe some of thatcan happen for some people, too.
So I appreciate that, Shawna.
I appreciate it.

Shawna (01:24:54):
And I think that anytime someone comes and says something
to you and they're coming from aplace of wanting to compliment
if there's any resistance, it'sprobably just something that
we're, that we need to workthrough.

It's our own thing.
Hmm.

Shawna (01:25:07):
So I'm grateful for every woman who found
inspiration in my curves and Ijust wish I could back and feel
as confident then as I do now.
But that's, but that's part ofwhat life is, is you just

Yeah.

Shawna (01:25:21):
try to keep healing that little girl and, and enjoy the,
enjoy the process.
Yeah.

Yeah.
You embody beauty inside out.
I'm so thankful that you'restill in my life and, we're
going to end the podcast, butwe're going to have to keep
chatting and, and figure out howto and, and continue to be
friends.
Right.
So

Shawna (01:25:42):
that.
I'd love that.

thank you, Shawna.

Shawna (01:25:45):
Thank you.

Bye bye.

Shawna (01:25:47):
Bye.

alexi (01:25:56):
I didn't do it today.

it didn't do the freeze.

alexi (01:25:58):
No.

you doing, Lexi?

alexi (01:26:00):
Oh, I'm so good.
How are you, Glen?

Oh, no, you're not supposed to.
That's, uh, no, I don't thinkwe're there yet.

alexi (01:26:09):
Oh.

we're there.
I don't think we're there.
That's okay.
to try to push that one throughon a, like, live podcast where I
don't have any recourse.
Uh, welcome to episode seven.
Episode seven with Adaline, alsoknown as my friend, Shawna
Beesley, which, I recognize, Idon't know whether that's

(01:26:30):
confusing.
I hope people caught on rightaway early on.
Obviously we're pretty familiarwith female artists with one
name that isn't their real namein the world, so, be okay, but
Ad I'll just say, and thenhenceforth I'm probably gonna
refer to her as Shawna, just tobe really clear.

alexi (01:26:50):
Right away in the podcast.
I think it made sense.

yeah, I didn't really have a choice, especially
that the podcast felt like suchan instant reunion.
And, and to be clear, right,like a lot of these have been
the first time I've seen peoplethat I've crossed paths or spent
a lot of time with back a longtime, like 20

alexi (01:27:08):
Yeah.

of them.
And, Yeah, this one felt alittle different sure.
This one was, um, that I had avery sort of unique connection
and bond with around sharedexperience

alexi (01:27:20):
Mm-hmm.

I wouldn't be able to have with most people.
And so we became fast friendsand went through a lot of stuff
in her life and incrediblethings It was, uh, definitely
had some vulnerable moments forme.
Um, yeah, I, I don't know whatelse to say other than, it just

(01:27:42):
sort of hit me in the middle oftalking to her that all these
things had happened in thistimeframe when we had kind of
lost touch, and then I just feltreally, really bad about it.
So it just, you know,

alexi (01:27:57):
Mm-hmm.

control it just hit me and came out, but.
Uh, it was very sweet.
It was for me, a very sweetconversation.

alexi (01:28:04):
Yeah.

I've had to listen in the edits quite a bit
to try to regain context and theflow because it, it became
really, I guess, maybe personalfor me.
But anyhow, I'm curious as towhat you heard, because I felt a
little, to be just honest, Ijust felt a little too close to
the conversation at some points.

alexi (01:28:27):
I think it was like, I mean, this sounds like.
Maybe bad, but it did feel likemaybe the most personal
conversation of the sevenepisodes.
Like,

Mm-hmm.

alexi (01:28:38):
the way that, in, in other episodes, you know, there
was shared kind of stories andmemories, and then like very
evidently shared experiences,just like within music.
But I think this is the firstone that like opened up of
shared experience.
In life.
Life and then further, like inlife that led to music, which
was kind of a shared thing foryou guys.

(01:28:59):
I thought it was reallyinteresting.
I mean, you and I had talkedabout, Shawna and like just, I
don't know, topics of in andaround that, like just recently
to do with the episode and justbefore in life.
Um, for sure.
So there was a number of thingsthat like.
I was listening to and I, theyrang familiar to me, but like,
hearing you guys both talk aboutit was interesting.

(01:29:22):
I think she was very, very wellspoken too.
which is great.
I like that she talked abouttoo, um, her doing like
commercials and jingles and,

Yeah, I mean.

alexi (01:29:34):
I, I don't know.
I just think that's somethingthat anyone who hasn't had any
kind of like a peephole into themusic industry, like not even
just the scene, just theindustry, like it's just
something you don't know.
and it was interesting for mebecause, was it Dan who said it
first?
Dan had said

About what?

alexi (01:29:54):
like, just participating in as an artist, like.
Jingles and other creative formsthat aren't, you know, that
creative, I guess, but to make

yeah, I think we referenced it with Dan.
I think we talked about it withJared of the

alexi (01:30:08):
Yeah.
Jared a lot.
Yeah.

because they've dipped into that

alexi (01:30:12):
Right.

Similarly to Shawna, you know, as a way that
they found to use, obviouslytheir skill and their.

alexi (01:30:20):
Mm-hmm.

Their passions, although they're not gonna be
passionate about jingles, butthey're passionate about being
able to constantly create.
And if some of their creationscan just be used very
functionally, for lack of abetter term, to pay the bills.
I guess the part that'sinteresting for me always is
I've lived and walked throughenough circles in the music

(01:30:43):
business to know how eithercynical or in a way immaturely,
judgmental people might be aboutnot being a true artist.
If you start to do things likethat,

alexi (01:30:55):
Yeah.

when really you're paying the bills and
keeping the rent and the poweron, and not having to work at
Starbucks for.

alexi (01:31:05):
Yeah, it's still like in the same kinda semicircle like,
yeah, I don't know.
It was maybe one of the leastinteresting things that she had
to say.
And yeah, it was just reallyinteresting for me from looking
at not just that episode, butlike your podcast so far.

Mm-hmm.

alexi (01:31:22):
I don't think I realized that.
so many artists participated inthat and it's just really
interesting to hear all of theirdifferent takes on it.
'cause they're all quitesimilar.

And you have to get your foot in the door the
same way you do as an with yourCR own creative work, right?
That

alexi (01:31:38):
Yeah.

have to get your foot in the door.
She told the story about howthat person basically.
I kind of saw her and kind ofplucked her out and, and gave
her the opportunity and it'sstill the same person that she
works with sometimes.
And so no different than all ofthese stories is that it's built
around relationships and it'sbuilt

alexi (01:31:58):
Yeah.

somebody, somebody always has to take a
chance on you, you know,

alexi (01:32:03):
Mm-hmm.

music, and that's.
Uh uh, that's something I shouldpursue talking to other people
about more.
'cause I find that alwaysfascinating and in this sort of
side career.
And I guess one of my favoritethings we pointed out in the
show was like, I'm somebody thatyou may never have heard of, but
you've all heard my voice liketo say something along those

(01:32:25):
lines was really and, and Ithink that, I think that it's so
interesting that you.
Could have that kinda happen,that people don't realize how
much it happens, like you said,and she's had like over 70 or 80
placements on TV shows andmovies, and when she says like,
I'm the voice, you know, but youdidn't know it was me.

(01:32:48):
Like she's been in, like, herclips have been like the.
End of episode emotional heavieson like Grey's anatomy type
thing.
we touched on briefly about thisalmost viral in a sense.
You'd call it to a very popularindie, I'm gonna call it indie

(01:33:08):
show, it's on AMC, the wineowner or, just because of the
different subject matter and.
And anyhow, like, like she's hadlike some great successes that
way that most people

alexi (01:33:19):
Yeah.

which was quite stunning.
And I just, like you said, yeah,you're right.
She was very articulate.
Like she made it really clearand told the story really and
easily, which I reallyappreciated.

alexi (01:33:33):
You know, there's a, like the other, the other thing, and
I think you'll be able to touchon this, like, I like the way
she spoke about, like puttingout music.
I mean, you called it likesensual, but just like putting
out music that was.
Becoming more personable to herand being like, worried about

(01:33:53):
how it was gonna be perceived bynot just people, but like family
and friends.
and then also just like how thatcreates a reflection of her.
And then again, like the peoplearound her.
Um, because I think like withany kind of artist, especially,
um, musical artists is like whenyou put yourself into your work.
Showing people can be like areally hard step, let alone like

(01:34:16):
releasing it and having thatreflected.
yeah, and the way shearticulated that was just very,
I don't know, it was like uniquebut in a very like, relatable
way.

Hmm.

alexi (01:34:27):
And I was wondering like related to the, the way she said
that having, you know, you havemusic out that's.
You, it was like, was thatsomething that you were like
relating on?

yeah, a hundred percent.
I mean, hers is in a differentway.
Like we

alexi (01:34:41):
Mm-hmm.

on her, sort of her increasing level of
sensuality I called it she wasjust being vulnerable with.
You know, our emotions aren'tcompartmentalized and our
feelings aren'tcompartmentalized.
So if you're just a sensualperson, if you feel things in a
way that is, I don't have tofill in the blanks for
everybody, but And just to beable to feel like you want to

(01:35:05):
express that and, and we allturn to music a lot of times

alexi (01:35:09):
Yeah.

draw that out of ourselves sometimes, right?
Because music can do that to us.
You can literally play musicthat makes people feel a certain
way and she's just putting allof that together as how she
wants to express herself.
And it's very difficult.
I don't think, okay, lemme putit this way.
I don't think I ever reallyunderstood.

(01:35:31):
How powerful that was until Ireleased my own music.

alexi (01:35:34):
The vulnerability.

And I, I always knew about it.

alexi (01:35:38):
Yeah.

it with friends to a degree, but that record
that I put out right before thepandemic, like when I made my
ep, what I did at that time wasI was.
I was so desperate to finishsongs and I needed to do that.
I needed to create something formyself, right?
And I was struggling and I washaving trouble.

(01:35:59):
And the only way I knew to doit, because everybody knows I
like to wear black.
Um, interested in exploring justdeeper emotional.
Subject matter.
I like to get deep inconversations right away.
The only way I knew how to pullthat project outta myself to
write about, we joke and we callit sad dad music, but it was

(01:36:23):
deeper painful sentiments,things from relationships.
the, the sense of like loss andlonging and regret and
disappointment.
The things that are really hardto get over.
That things are hard to swallow,that you just kind of get
through.
And I don't know if you know,because you were a lot younger
in 2018 and 2019 than you arenow, I went through like of 2017

(01:36:51):
going into 2018 when I startedwriting for, it

alexi (01:36:54):
Yeah.

felt very dark to me

alexi (01:36:57):
Yeah.

I was allowing myself to sit with all those
things.

alexi (01:37:01):
Right.

one difficult moment.
But then when it came time torelease it, and one of the very
first comments I got fromsomebody who's known me for a
long time, not in a deep way,was their surprise over the
subject matter

alexi (01:37:19):
Yeah.

I'm such a happy, outgoing, charismatic person.
So they couldn't put the twotogether.
And that was a challenge for me.

alexi (01:37:29):
And that's why, that's why I ask.
'cause I mean your music, like,I mean your ep, that ep, like, I
think exactly how you describedit is exactly how it comes off
of like those deeper emotions,especially of like kind of
longing and all of, all of whatyou had just said.
But I think like releasing at atime where you have like, you

(01:37:50):
know.
A job you love and like a wifeand kids that you're happy with
and, you know, having these likereally positive life experiences
and are like in a, seemingly,from like an outside perspective
in such a good place.
But then like, And like havinglike not released music for a

(01:38:11):
long time, like there was nolike window for other people in
your life to kind of see thatside of you had you not had some
deep conversation.
Um,

a good point.

alexi (01:38:21):
then it's like kind of like you're dropping a bomb on
everyone.
Like that's how I would feel.
It's just like, oh, hey.

a dark bomb on

alexi (01:38:28):
Yeah, that's what I mean.
Like I, how.
By the way, this, his me, like,it's just that kinda concept,
like I just, that vulnerabilityis a.

I was worried.
I was like, are people gonnacome up to me and be like, are
you having troubles at home?
Are you, blah, blah.
You know what I mean?
All this kind of stuff.
Are you depressed?
Are you, yeah.
And.
Anyhow.
It was just a very small tastefor me compared to what other
people, and especially someonelike Shawna had to go through

(01:39:01):
where she has her song GhostBlow Up at the end of the Wynona
Earp Show, of go viral.
She's getting all kinds of pressfor it.
It's like all over the place,and it is such a raw song that
she, by that point, 10 yearslater, after first telling me
about her bisexuality.

(01:39:22):
It is almost her hand is playedto the degree.
'cause everyone wrestles forvarious lengths of time in
various ways in their ownjourney, the point where they
come out to their family are avery religious, conservative
family.
So that song and thatvulnerability for her forced

(01:39:42):
that moment, which is humongous.
I can't even, can't even fathom.
What she went through so much.
I think that's why I got alittle emotional in that
conversation because it just hitme in the moment.
Like, I cannot fathom what youwent through.
So,

alexi (01:40:00):
Especially when you've had of it.

yeah, she's just so, she's so brave and she's so
strong and I just admire her andlove her so much.
So I'm very thankful for thatconversation.
Yeah.
Thank you.
Um, I'm really happy that itworked out.
Okay, well let's switch gearsaway from me talking about my

(01:40:25):
own music or anything like that.
and just to wrap up talkingabout music like we like to and
where we're at right now, reallyquick.

alexi (01:40:33):
Yes.

so it's like, so we just had like the Grammys and
stuff on.
there's all kinds of talk aboutthe stuff that went on there.
But the other thing that justhas happened in the music world
is the new run of the realityshows, like The Voice and
American

alexi (01:40:49):
Alright.

back up right now.
and I always, I think one of thethings that fascinates me about
those shows it's just a bunch ofpeople singing cover songs,
right.
Like the sense that we'relooking for the next big artist,
but we're gonna force them tochoose from a catalog week after
week after week, year afteryear, season 20 seasons into

(01:41:10):
these shows.
And they're just singing coversongs and who can sing'em best.
And sometimes you hear some realoriginal takes on them, which
are really inspiring and cool.
and most of the time they fallterribly, terribly flat.
And, um.
Yeah, hard to see who the artistreally is.
So in, in spirit of that, Iwondered if it would be fun to

(01:41:34):
just talk about our favoritecover songs, and I wonder if
there's ever a point when wehave, like, we dedicate like a,
a post fame or something to justtalking about some covers
because I've got like thismassive collection going on
Spotify.

alexi (01:41:51):
A playlist of That's a great idea.

My playlist is called Under Indie Covers.
I think it's very cute.
It's a very cute title and I'mvery proud of it.

alexi (01:42:00):
Yep.

it's in all, it's in all caps, but there's so
many.
I was trying to look at some ofmy favorites, but I'm wondering
like, do you know off the top ofyour head

alexi (01:42:10):
I could name two off the top of.

Okay, I wanna know what there.

alexi (01:42:15):
First one I was, it's the one I, I've played for you a
couple times lately.
It's, I'm on fire, but it's thecover by Joe P, who I've talked
about on here before, but heonly does like, what was it,
like a minute and a half?
Yes.

and a half.
He like, starts singing into itright away.
There's really no instrumentalbridges or breaks.

alexi (01:42:36):
No.

like.
Verse choruses it, verse intothat little little bridge that
goes right back into a verse ina chorus.
And he's done.
And you're right.

alexi (01:42:46):
It just leaves you wanting more.

way too soon.

alexi (01:42:48):
Yeah.

it's, uh, there's a lot of covers of that song.
You're right.
It's

alexi (01:42:53):
Yeah.

his little take on it though,

alexi (01:42:55):
It's good.

P If anybody doesn't, know Joe P I'm On Fire.

alexi (01:42:59):
So good.
and then the other one is likeprobably all time favorite
covered last.
I don't know, year and a bit is,um, this is also just like a
song that has 5 million covers,but, um, linger.
But there's a cover by RoyalOtis

Yeah.

alexi (01:43:15):
and it's like, not only is it the cover, it's in one of
those, like when studios dolittle like sessions, um, it's
like Sirius XM session.
Like

Sirus.

alexi (01:43:26):
what is it?
Okay.
I don't.
This was of my head.
Um,

okay.
Now, you know.

alexi (01:43:32):
they have the little session and they do it, and it's
fantastic every time.

You're right.
that's actually a really goodone.
There's actually another, Who isit by?
There's another version of thatthat I actually like and I think
it's like a Spotify session.
Oh no it's not.
But it's uh, a group that Idon't even know their work,
otherwise it's

alexi (01:43:52):
Oh.

A Freedom Fry.
Like Fry, FRY, and they do acover of Linger also.
That's pretty good.
And then they also do a cover ofSmashing Pumpkins 1979 actually,
which is really cool too.
So those are two really goodones and I'm glad that you could
pull those off the top of yourhead.
'cause I didn't tell you how toprepare at all, so that's

(01:44:13):
fantastic.
So my, don't know that I can sayall time favorite, but if you
were, if we were having aconversation with a new group of
people and I had to give themone song to go listen to, it
would be Andrew Bell's cover ofFade Into You by Mazzy Star,
which is, um.
Maybe to me, and this is gonnasound sacrilege, but this is

(01:44:36):
when a cover is great, maybebetter than the original, which
might be absolute sacrilege topeople.
But, I'll explain like quicklyfor me the reason it's better
and I've, I've made you sit andlisten to me like geek out on
all the little details andlayers, but slide guitar and the

(01:44:56):
use of a much more kind ofreverb washed.
Out, aesthetic, uh, both in thevocal, particularly in the
vocal, but in the slide guitar.
and that is, so hits the emotionwhere it and Mazzy Star too, but
I feel like it hits that onepinpoint piece of emotional

(01:45:17):
weight to the song even betterbecause of it anyhow.

alexi (01:45:21):
I love it.

love that cover.
And then the second one, whichabsolutely kills me and.
it also is heavily reverbedguitar and washed out, vocals.
But there's a group calledChromatic.
They've done couple of goodcovers, but they have, uh, it's
called Into the Black.
It's Neil Young.
Uh, it cover,

alexi (01:45:42):
Okay.

the, Hey, hey, my, my

alexi (01:45:45):
Oh yeah.

Um, and it's like totally not Neil Young-ish.
It's like.

alexi (01:45:51):
Okay.

I find it beautiful.
And if I was picking like DesertIsland songs, that song might
make it on there.
'cause I never get sick ofplaying it.
But I've got this massive listof covers and it grows all the
time.
So maybe we'll do an explorationsometime.
But I

alexi (01:46:09):
Yeah.

in light of, what I find most funny about the
reality singing contests is thatit's all just cover music and,

alexi (01:46:17):
Yeah,

It'd be fun to just chat about.
But yeah, maybe we'll do thatsomeday.

alexi (01:46:21):
we have to.
Yeah.

Okay.

alexi (01:46:24):
Okay.

Okay, well thanks for your time as always.

alexi (01:46:27):
Yes.

Appreciate it.

alexi (01:46:29):
Mm-hmm.

back again next week.

alexi (01:46:31):
Yeah.
Okay.
Thanks for having me.
Bye.
Love you.

All Episodes

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

.css-15opob5{left:0;position:absolute;top:0.8rem;} All Episodes

.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}ep7 Adaline is a bad believer

Episode Transcript

Popular Podcasts

.css-r6mb8g{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:1;overflow:hidden;}On Purpose with Jay Shetty

Crime Junkie

Ridiculous History

All Episodes

ep7 Adaline is a bad believer

On Purpose with Jay Shetty