Ep. 14 ~ Marriage 911: Somebody Save My Marriage!

What if what's destroying yr marriage started long before you were born?  Couples Counselor Frank De Gracia uncovers generational patterns of marriage killers that sabotage silently–and how to break free from them before the divorce.

Frank explains: "If there's a divorce happening now, it's probably because of unresolved issues in your grandparents & in your parents" This offers both cause & cure – while we can't change our history, we can change our trajectory. THERE IS HOPE!

From groundbreaking research, Frank introduces the "Four Horsemen" that predict divorce with 90% accuracy. Most revealing is his discussion of how men & women communicate differently during conflict. And the most transformative moment? It comes as Frank explains the role of  vulnerability in healing relationships. 

Whether you're in a struggling marriage or just want to strengthen a healthy one, this episode offers practical wisdom for turning toward each other rather than away in difficult moments. As Frank powerfully states, "If I can help a couple, I can help a family. If I can help a family, I can help a community." Listen now to uncover how small changes can transform your relationship from battlefield to sanctuary.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Aloha, and welcome to Aloha Alive, the heart of
Hawaii.
I'm your host, auntie DawnO'Brien, and today I'm super
excited because I get to reunitewith one of my star students in
my speech class.
Welcome to Frank DeGrasia, aChristian couples counselor, and
he's going to be talking aboutmarriage 911.
As we get started, though, Ihave to say one of my favorite,

(00:35):
worst memories of all time wasduring our PACRIM Bible college
class.
There's five different types ofspeeches that I teach.
One of them is the persuasivespeech, and Frank brought in a
balut to our class.
If you do not know what balutis, bless the Lord.

(00:55):
You should thank God, jesus, theHoly Spirit, everybody who's up
there.
Balut is fermented rottenchicken and Filipino people.
God forgive me because I loveevery other kind of Filipino
food except for balut.
Frank is a young college kid.
Brings this stinky thing intoclass and myself and the other

(01:17):
Caucasian person in theclassroom were fighting for that
trash can trying to throw upTrue story right.
Yeah, persuasive, you shouldremember it.
Thank you, Frank.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
I'm so proud of you.

Speaker 1 (01:31):
You turned out amazing.

Speaker 3 (01:32):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (01:33):
You graduated from Bible College where you were
also serving as a reservist.

Speaker 3 (01:37):
Yeah, Army reservist.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
That's amazing.
Thank you for serving God andcountry.

Speaker 3 (01:40):
Oh, thank you for your support.

Speaker 1 (01:45):
Then you go on, you get your counseling degree,
right, you have a master's andthen you're also certified in
the drug treatment area yes.
You work at Hina Malka,full-time, correct, and you're a
husband.
You want to give a shout out tothe wife.

Speaker 3 (01:57):
I love your wife.
Come on, Julie.

Speaker 1 (01:59):
Let's go, and four sons now.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yes, I always say I, I have four sons.
It's not that I love my sons.

Speaker 2 (02:06):
I really love my wife .
So, yeah, well said he knowswho to take care of, because
when he's an old man, guesswho's gonna be taking care of
exactly julie, julie, julie Idid meet the baby, though yes,
he is, yes, he is a cutie pie.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
He's a little snuggle bug.
He was super good.
I saw him at a meeting and hewas just such a cutie at school.
His wife is a teacher at one ofour biggest and best elementary
schools in the state of Hawaii.
Really, I love you more than Ilove him.
Julie.
So if you're watching.
But I love that you gave theshout out to the wife.
I'm going to read a quote as wetalk about.

(02:49):
Marriage 911 today and I feellike we need to get straight to
it, because you and I have bothbeen in ministry for decades.
One of the top requests inprayer is for marriages, and I
mean every week.
I'm talking about not justpeople in the congregation or in
the community, I'm talkingabout pastors.
So here's the quote marriage isthe grave of love.
People fall in love.

(03:10):
They have stark, raving, madromances.
They get married and then itall dies.
Does that sound familiar?

Speaker 3 (03:18):
Yeah, it does, unfortunately.

Speaker 1 (03:19):
What seems to support this old quote that I saw and
I've heard many times is therate of divorce in the United
States.
I used to hear it was about 50%.
It's dropped since then.
It's now at about 40%.
Right, I'm just rounding off tokeep it real simple for secular
sources In the church, forChristians, the rate of divorce

(03:41):
is 30%.
Have you heard that as well?

Speaker 3 (03:44):
I've heard variations , but I've heard that as well.
Yes, unfortunate, absolutelyRight yeah.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
And for Christians the number is coming up, while
for world divorces it's goingdown.
So for those outside of thechurch it's coming down, but for
those in the church,unfortunately, you would think,
Christians would stay married,because we say that God created
this sacred covenant of marriageand I'm not bashing, I'm not
throwing rocks here, but thissupports the statement that
marriage is the grave of love.

(04:10):
This is a lot Frank aboutwhat's going on.

Speaker 3 (04:14):
Yeah, that is a huge question, a huge question and
it's really a problem for usreally, because what I've seen
is I remember when you well, notwhen I stepped into your class
when you gave a talk at chapelabout Wonder Woman and you gave
this talk about how the enemy,through the analogy of

(04:34):
Terminator, and how the enemyhas a target on our back, and
essentially that is exactlywhat's happening in the
marriages, in the family, wherethe enemy knows and recognizes
that if he can target the familyunit, the man of the household,
the marriage, if he can targetthat, then he can affect
generations to come.

(04:55):
And we know the Bible talksabout Adam and Eve and how the
enemy came in and sin was fromall of that and just the
generational curses, where inpsychology we call that
generational patterns.
Wow.
And so generational patternsthat has not been resolved over
time.
And because of thesegenerational patterns that has
not been resolved, let's justsay, you know, when a client

(05:17):
comes to me and I ask them, I doan assessment, what brings you
here and what's the presentingproblem?
And they'll say, oh, drugs andpornography, et cetera, and all
these things.
And then I'll ask tell me aboutyour parents.
Oh, tell me about yourgrandparents and your
great-grandparents.
What I'll see is a thread ofthese things happening from time
to time and progressivelygetting worse over time, oh wow.

(05:39):
And so if there's a divorcethat's happening now, it's
probably because of unresolvedissues in their grandparents, in
their parents, in theirgrandparents.
It just exacerbated or it justgot worse over time and then
we're still seeing it.
So when Christianity, whenChrist comes into a life,
awesome, they're forgiven oftheir sins and they're redeemed,
et cetera.
However, those generationalpatterns are still occurring

(06:01):
inside of them, and so that'swhy, when Romans talks about be
transformed by the renewing ofyour mind, it's so essential.
It's not just oh, jesus is inmy life, pow we good.
No, there needs to be asanctification process.
There needs to be.
That's why the church you knowthe Bible talks about don't
forsake the fellowshipping ofyour brethren.
It's more important.
It's not just cool we wouldtalk about the Bible, let's pray

(06:22):
for another, but it's how theBible talks about iron,
sharpening iron.
It's where the Bible talksabout having to not forsake the
fellowshipping of the brethren,because when you're with other
brothers in Christ, you get tosee new, more redeemed patterns
of how to do life.

Speaker 1 (06:36):
That's good.

Speaker 3 (06:37):
Better ways of how to be a husband versus what you've
learned from mom and dad.

Speaker 1 (06:41):
Or grandpa and grandma or grandma and grandpa.

Speaker 3 (06:43):
The old saying the apple doesn't fall too far from
the tree is so true because theynever learn anything different.
You only know what you know.

Speaker 1 (06:51):
Right.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
And so, okay, I accept Jesus Christ into my life
.
I said the prayer.
I'm going to these classes andBible study.
However, what's important isthey be exposed to other men and
women of God so they can seewhat is it like.
What is it like to be a man ofGod, a husband or woman being?
What is it like to be a womanof God?
Because they don't know anydifferent.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
It's good and, like you said, and just to recap some
of the highlights there and Ilove how you said it, Frank, you
don't know what you don't knowKind of sounds like a porguism
that I heard from the Delimasbut, honestly, I grew up in a
family where I thought thesilent treatment was normal
until I went to my friend'shouse after school and they were
like making dinner together themom and dad they were setting

(07:35):
the table and I had never seenthat in my life in my house.
Yeah, I was like these peopleare aliens, they're not regular.
But to your point, I didn'tknow what I didn't know until I
hung out with a healthy familythat was having healthy
relationship with healthybehaviors.
And if you don't have a healthyfamily, you're going to have an

(07:57):
unhealthy one that hasunhealthy mentality and
unhealthy behaviors.
The silent treatment was normal, Swearing was normal et cetera
right.
Drawing away.
We're going to talk about someof the Gottman principle.
And I love that you said.
Instead of drawing away, drawcloser to one another in
conflict which iscounterintuitive.
I'm like forget you, right, souse a nice F word forget you.

(08:21):
I'm walking away from this, butwe'll talk about that a little
bit more.
Thank you for saying that,frank.
So what's going on is a wholelot and it doesn't have to be.
It sounds like, and I'm goingto ask you, it doesn't have to
be transgenerational patterns ortransgenerational curses.
Now I'll interject one thingand then come right back to that
is no, it doesn't have to be.

(08:42):
But I love that you said that.
You asked during the assessmentwhich, by the way, is free at
your clinic.

Speaker 2 (08:47):
I looked at that four letter F word real hard because
I was like that's my favorite.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
Four letter F word.

Speaker 2 (08:52):
Anybody who's in schools like Julie knows, I talk
about that one in front oflittle kids.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
I love free and I love food.
Put them together.

Speaker 3 (08:59):
Free food free food double Jesus jackpot.

Speaker 1 (09:02):
But I looked, looked at that you do free assessments
with people at the, your clinic,which is called enjoy life,
hawaii counseling, and you saidyou ask about the parents
relationship and you ask aboutthe grandparents.
I was sitting here listening toyou say that frank and I
started thinking about my ownand, like I just said, silent
treatment, swearing um, heavyduty, unhealthy conflict, and

(09:24):
then I started looking at andI'm not trying to, I'm not
trying to be disrespectful to myfamily, but let's look at the
reality is even my grandparents.
There was a lot of unhealthythings, but they lived in a
generation at a time.
People didn't get divorced, soit manifested in unhealthy other
ways right, yes.
So now Don O'Brien is makingsome familiar because and here's

(09:46):
another quote I often say whenyou come from a broken home,
broke feels like home.
So I'm in a healthyrelationship, but it feels
boring because I'm not screamingat this guy or I'm not silent
treating him, I'm not blowing uphis phone with 30 messages
saying where the F?
Are you Right?
So does that sound normal.
Absolutely.
Sounds really normal treatinghim.
I'm not blowing up his phonewith 30 messages saying where

(10:07):
the F are you right?

Speaker 3 (10:10):
So does that sound normal?
Yeah, absolutely, it soundsreally normal.
I know a lot of Christianfamilies because I see mostly
Christian couples, because theyknow my background and I'm
referred through for a lot ofchurches and I see a lot of
Christian couples and the thingis they got this new habit of
going to church and doing Biblestudies.
However, the home is stillbroken, and so it's important
again having to go back to thisthing about recognizing the

(10:30):
importance of being amongstother brothers in Christ so that
they're exposed to these things.
We call it exposure therapy.
So you need to go and getexposed into this, the thing
that you're very afraid of.
Take a step.
What does it look like to takea step closer to that thing
you're afraid of?
That?
You're very afraid of take astep.
What does it look like to takea step closer to that thing
you're afraid of?
That?
You know it's good for you, butbecause of whatever trauma in
your past is like, oh, you know,like with a lot of PTSD clients

(10:51):
that I work with, you know,because being in an environment
where it's crowded, so I exposeit to the.
Okay, you're afraid of going toa Pro Ridge.
So what do you?
Just park in the parking lotand see what that feels like, so
exposing them to, to healthythings that they're not
accustomed to.
Just seeing what's like, whatit's like, and they're like I
don't know.
I don't know if I can be inthat kind of environment, I

(11:13):
don't know if that's for me.
Well, they just just sit withit and just observe.
What do you think?

Speaker 1 (11:26):
Let's process, let's talk about the thoughts that
come through your mind, and soit is very true to your point.
I love that.
Thank you for affirming that.
I love that you walk step bystep, like, let's say, in your
PTSD example, and that was areal human being.
And I certainly appreciate ourwarriors who are in the armed
forces.
Pray for them all the time,pray for the reservists, thank
you.
But it's about starting withsmall steps towards healthy new
behaviors, because perhaps goinginto a mall will be too loud

(11:47):
too, much sensory input, right.
Too much stimulation of visual,what I'm hearing, what I'm
smelling.
There's too many people.
And this is going to recall anact of war right when there's
things flying.
So thank you for doing that.
The other thing that I wasthinking about when you talked
about those transgenerationalpatterns or curses as we say in
Christianity is that if we don'tdeal with sin, it's going to

(12:10):
get worse.
So the cycle of sin is not justoutward, where it starts to go
worse and worse.
Like I start with pornography,that's other sex porn.
Right, like I'm looking at guysand then I'm going to look at
same sex porn.
Sex porn right.
Like I'm looking at guys andthen I'm going to look at same
sex porn.
Then I'm going to start lookingat um, and probably I should
watch what I say, becausealgorithms are going to strike
that.
So my editor will help me.

(12:31):
Thank, you.
Um is, then I'm going to look atchild images, right, and then
it goes to even more depraved.
So the cycle of sin is outwardand downward.
And you just kind of alluded tothat when you said we're going
to look all the way back becauseit gets worse and worse.
And what may have kind of beenthere with your grandparents
gets a little bit more outwardand downward with the parents,

(12:52):
and then it's going to be withus.

Speaker 3 (12:53):
Right, right.
And the thing is the hope inall of this.
It's called multifinality.
So think of like an airportwhere the planes can go in
either direction, or like anairport where the planes can go
in either direction.
You have an airport where youknow this is where this, this is
where let me just kind of putit in real life where we all
have this sin and the divorce isinevitable or whatever.

(13:13):
But even if you have a brokenhome, a broken past, the
finality, the direction is up toyou, it's your choice.
Oh, wow Right.
So the finality of things youcan say you know I'm going to
repeat these generationalpatterns and continue to this
abuse, continue with all thesethings.
Or I can decide you know what,I need to change this pattern in
my life because I see mygrandparents, my parents and it

(13:33):
all busts up and so I need tochange this trajectory and says
you know what?
I need to go seek therapy, Ineed to get accountability, I
need to go to the church and getsome counseling, some pastoral
help, et cetera, just so thatway, so we have the choice Right
, we have a choice, so there ishope.
But the first step isrecognizing that there are these

(13:54):
patterns in my life.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
Right.

Speaker 3 (13:55):
And it's important to sit with someone like myself to
help recognize those things.
And instinctually, a lot of usalready know my model at is my
grandma, everybody we know.
It's just we have to come tothe realization that, okay, what
do I do with this?
Because this is wrong.
I don't want this to continueto repeat in my kids.

Speaker 1 (14:14):
Right.
And yet we said we don't knowwhat we don't know Right Now.

Speaker 3 (14:25):
So to help us know what we don't know what does a
baseline to get a baselinedefinition know what does a
baseline to get a baselinedefinition?
What does a good marriage looklike?
Yeah, so, fortunately, uh,there was a psychologist named
dr john gotman, his beautifulwife, julie gotman, and uh, in
about 40, 50 years ago, theycreated uh gotman institute, and
what they did in seattle,washington, is they created what
they call a love lab, and inthis love lab they had about a

(14:46):
few thousand couples.
They come through this love lab.
It's a bed and breakfast kindof thing.
They had the room, the bedroom,the living room, et cetera, but
they had a camera in each ofthose rooms, so pretty
comfortable I guess.
But they had a couple in thereand what they did, and they also
measured their heart rates andthey just set cameras up and

(15:06):
watched how they and what theyfound.
So, before I answer thatquestion, what they found was
the couples that ended up indivorce and dissolvement showed
four big signs, and he calls itthe four horsemen.
He's Jewish and so he talksabout, you know, the end times,
and so, as we know in Scripture,the four signs of the end times
famine, rumors of war,antichrist and such, and so he

(15:29):
says here's the four things thatyou see and such.
And so he says here's the fourthings that you see.
If we see this four horsemen inthe marriage on a relationship
that is not mitigated, thenthere's a 90% chance of divorce.
So he's 90% he can guarantee.
If I see these four thingsrunning rampant in the marriage
and they're not taken care of,there's a 90% chance of

(15:50):
divorce's again, about 4 000couples.
40 years of doing this researchand so the first very extensive
yeah, and it's true till todaywow, okay, yeah, bring it.

Speaker 1 (16:01):
What are the four horse?
The first one is criticism.

Speaker 3 (16:05):
Criticism is basically labeling um, you're
stupid, you're dumb, I can'tbelieve you're such an idiot.
So those kinds of thingscriticism.
The second one is stonewalling.
Stonewalling is a is a strategya lot of us men use because
we've been taught in in lifesuck it up, there's no crying so
we stonewall, we go quietbecause we know, as men, if we

(16:26):
were to really say what we wantto say, we might hurt our spouse
in a sense of emotionally,verbally abusive.
So we go quiet, we shut down, wedon't say anything, and now the
wife is led to believe oh, Iguess you don't care about our
relationship.
And so she gets more mad.
But the man more closes downand stonewalls.
So stonewalling.
The other one is defensivenessoh wow, defensiveness is, uh,

(16:51):
excuses, justifying yourbehavior.
You know well what about you?
You never do this and youalways do that.
The other thing aboutdefensiveness is the victim
standpoint, where the victimsays well, you're right, I'm
always the person wrong, yep,yep, always my fault.
Just kind of basically justthrowing the white flag but
taking that as a defensivestance, but victim mindset.

(17:13):
And the last one is calledcontempt.
Now, contempt is verycondescending.
It's the rolling of the eyes,it's the like oh, here she goes
again.
It's the I'm better than you,smarter than you, more prompt
than you, whatever than you, andit's very condescending.
Wow.
So if these four are rampant ina marriage and relationship,

(17:33):
it's inevitable.
There's a 90% chance of divorceand dissolvement.

Speaker 1 (17:37):
And recap them again.
What were they?

Speaker 3 (17:39):
So you have criticism , criticism, stonewalling.

Speaker 1 (17:41):
Stonewalling.

Speaker 3 (17:42):
Defensiveness.

Speaker 1 (17:43):
Defensiveness.
And contempt and unfortunatelyall four of those sound way too
familiar and those were greatexamples you gave.
And that's a 90 percent, 90percent chance, holy smokes of
heading towards divorce court?
yeah, you know, I've heard ofthe gotmans.
I love them, and you use thegotman method.
They are highly effectivecounselors, right, and you're a

(18:05):
christian counselor forchristian, uh, for couples, and
that's all couples.
But you, you know, and baseyour work on the Bible, right?
And then you use a lot of othergreat studies like this one.
Now, how long if we start usingthe Gottman method?
Or they come to you and they'relooking at you know what?
Let me also back that up beforeI say if they're coming, if

(18:27):
we're coming to you for counsel,frank, you know, one of the
things I hear a lot from wivesbecause of course I'm a woman
and I go to a lot of women'sministry events and I'm in
prayer circles is, well, he'snever going to come to
counseling with me.
What could you help me withthat?
Or help them with that?
What do we do other than well,I'll pray for you.

Speaker 3 (18:46):
So your question is if the woman wants their husband
to come to counseling and thehusband refuses to, yeah, that's
a tough one.
Unfortunately it happens a lot,because you know if a husband
is not ready, then he's notready, and until there comes to
a point when the marriage isfalling apart, it's like you're
trying to tell someone to dosomething when they're not ready

(19:08):
to do it.
And so when they come to thatwe call it a preparation stage,
where they're preparing and theystart, they're kind of
ambivalent or 50-50.
I think should I?
But I really don't want to, butI should.
And then something tips themover when the woman excuse me,
the wife would like threatenwell, if you don't go, then I'm

(19:29):
going to divorce you.
When those kinds of threatshappen in the husband, okay, all
right, let's go, let's do this.
And so unfortunately it takesthose kinds of threats from the
wife or in the husband, becausesometimes in your point the wife
is like I don't want to go, youneed it, not me.

Speaker 1 (19:46):
Right, and I would compare it this way, frank, from
what I've seen, and pleaseyou're the qualified counselor
it this way, frank, from whatI've seen, and please you're the
qualified counselor it's almostlike you know, if I gain a ton
of weight, I don't really wantto go work out, right, I know I
should, instinctively.
I know I'm in a bad space withthis, but until the point where
I'm like none of my clothes fit.
I'm now wearing like size 45,instead of my size 12s, like

(20:10):
normal.
When I get to that crisiscritical point, then I'm going
to say, hey, I'm going to haveto start changing my diet and
change.
And that's where a lot ofmarriages unfortunately have to
get to that crisis criticalpoint where almost one of them
is walking out the door.
We are not recommending this atthis moment, but that seems to
be the typical pattern.
Thank you for being honest withthat.

(20:31):
Can the woman or the spouse whowants to come, even if it's the
husband come to counseling ontheir own?
Because I would think thatthere is some salvation in that.
There is some sanctificationAbsolutely.

Speaker 3 (20:41):
Because again, let's talk about the generational
patterns Come on Right.
And so if they're continuing todo the same thing, it's like I
remember Pastor Ed Savo oncesaid if you always do what
you've always done, you're goingto get what you've always got.
But if you do what you've neverdone, you're going to get what
you've never got.
And so somebody has to changethis pattern.
And so either the wife or thehusband will seek a therapist

(21:03):
and says my husband or my wifedoesn't want to come, so they do
the work on themselves.
And so what happens is, whenthey do the work on themselves,
what happens is, let's just say,the woman goes to therapy and
the husband refuses to, like inyour example.
And so now the woman begins tolearn some some coping
mechanisms, coping strategies.
When he starts doing his thing,that snaps her, she, instead of

(21:26):
reacting, she's responding in ahealthier way.
Right, the husband will saywhatever criticisms and
stonewall or whatnot, but shewould respond in a healthier way
.
Yes, that maybe allows him orcauses him to say what just
happened yeah that's differentshe doesn't respond like that,
and so that's why it's importantto like somebody need to do
something different in thisrelationship right, exactly,

(21:48):
thank you for saying that.

Speaker 1 (21:49):
So there's goodness to it yes I've noticed in my um
of tears, right is not just theAmerican Indian thing on the
continent, but in my ownrelationships I had been
attracted consistently to and itbroke down every time a certain
type of male.
I didn't know that going intoit I'm a smart girl.
I mean I obviously wouldn'tstart a relationship if I knew

(22:10):
it was going to crash and burnso horribly.
I mean I obviously wouldn'tstart a relationship if I knew
it was going to crash and burnso horribly.
But I look back at over thistrack of fiancés and I think to
myself Don, if you open youreyes and look at the pattern
right there is patterns.
Thank you for saying that gentlyand then to say I'm trying not
to pick the same, but I'm alsowhen I am dating.
I'm not going to respond thesame because I confess to you

(22:32):
that in my house that I grew upin highly dysfunctional and
there was the stonewalling,there was all four.
There was also a lot of theswearing, the unhealthy conflict
, and then I was activating itand, frank, I didn't mean to do
that right, I've been aChristian since I was 13 years
old but suddenly I looked likemy mother and my father fighting
.
I was swearing, I was angry, Iwould do the silent treatment, I

(22:56):
would turn away and I woulddrop it cold.
I was like I, I don't need you.
I never thought I was going togrow up to become my divorcing
parents, but I had a divorcingspirit, so thank you for saying
I started really tuning intoyour ig.
I did, did.
I started watching Jimmy onRelationships?
Yes.

Speaker 3 (23:15):
And he loves the Gottmans, yes, so.

Speaker 1 (23:16):
I started getting into the Gottmans and that's why
I asked you to come and be onthe show, because I really felt
like God led me to say hey, Iwant to get help for other
people who come to me for prayer.
Go get Frank, because Frankreally is a qualified Christian
counselor with a good heart.
So Frank really is a qualifiedChristian counselor with a good
heart.
So thank you for coming andthank you for saying that.
Absolutely, that's where it wascoming from.
Okay, so, um, can we?

(23:37):
Here comes a hard ball question, a fast and furious, but I did
list it on the questions before,so don't be scared.
Um.
Can we save marriages fromdivorce court, do you think?

Speaker 3 (23:47):
Absolutely yes, um, so you brought up Jimmy.
He talks about the Gottman.
The other thing he also talksabout, but not enough, is
emotion-focused therapy.
That's another thing that Ispecialize in.
And when it comes to marriages,and especially when these
marriages are on the brink ofdivorce, the biggest thing in
all of this right, the patternsand all the stuff that we talked

(24:08):
about earlier, the biggestthing is they both don't feel
safe to really share what's ontheir heart, that when the wife
causes to rise up and sayssomething, she gets triggered.
The husband shuts down, andwhen he shuts down he's afraid
to say something.
He doesn't want to saysomething because he feels
unsafe, that if he does, she'llget more triggered, and so

(24:29):
there's this dynamic of goingback and forth.
They don't feel safe, and sothe thing about.
So, going back to your point ofyour question, there is that
therapy, what it does, it helpsfacilitate this safe
conversation where now there's athird person they have to
introduce into this conversation, so that way the wife can
really articulate what's on herheart in a more de-escalated

(24:51):
fashion and and the therapistwill be able to help the husband
facilitate a conversation thatis and guys, we don't know our
words, we don't know how to.
We're not all you know, I'mspeaking generally, but a lot of
men don't know how toarticulate emotions.
In fact, when I say, what doesthat feel like?
You know, sir, what does thatfeel like?
To share that?
I don't know, I feel bad.
Well, let's talk more aboutthat.
What is that?
What does bad feel like?

(25:11):
Well, when you say bad, whatdoes that take you to?
Um, in your history, in yourmind, when she said that?
What happened inside of you?
And so, as a therapist, we helpthe man articulate their
emotions, that's good and it's abig cry session.
Um, I've had couples on thebrink of divorce and helping the
man to articulate what isreally heavy on his heart, and
the wife was like I didn't knowthat was going through.

(25:32):
That's what you're thinking of.
All this time, I thought youdidn't love me.
All this time I thought youdidn't care.
And so thank you for sharingthat, because now I realize that
you don't hate me, you actuallydo love me, and so I've had a
lot of conversations.
So that's why having someonewho understands these
generational patterns helpsfacilitate that.

(25:54):
So now this couple can walkaway from therapy and saying you
know what?
I just thought she hated me.
I just thought he hated me.
But we're realizing here weactually do love each other.
It's just we're just missingthe boat, we're missing the cues
, we're just not really knowinghow to articulate what's really
going on underneath.

Speaker 1 (26:10):
So good, frank, and, like you said and I've seen it
many times because Jimmy onrelationships, he's an IG and I
watch him on YouTube, but hedoes a lot of the role playing.
So, he'll do the husband or theboyfriend, and then also the
wife or the girlfriend and heshows you know, like you said,
the example is where she'slashing out, and oftentimes we

(26:31):
are women, typically are veryemotion articulate.
I'll say and so we can expressthese things, and we're putting
it out there, and then we startslamming into them and listing
every single thing since 1982that you've been doing right.
I mean, men know sports stats,we know all the relationship
stats and we will remember everysingle one of.
I heard a joke that women makegreat archaeologists because we

(26:51):
know how to dig things up right.
And that's why I love your IGside note, because Frank posts
so many funny things, and so itlightens up some of the
harshness that it can feel hardwhen we're dealing with our
emotions and our heart or thebroken home issues.
But then you lighten it up andthen we come back into wow, this

(27:12):
is a good nugget, which is alsowhy I like jimmy on
relationships.
So back to that thing where thewoman is laying into the guy
and we're like we're calling out, we're crying for their
attention and for connection,and then often the guy in
response he doesn't want to hurther, whatever it is he
stonewalls, like you said, thenmore.
So we're trying to reach outand make even more, and now I'm

(27:33):
going to raise my volume.
Now I'm going to use words thatdon't appear in the Bible.
I'm going to call you some names, right.
And so you're saying, walkingthrough that with a counselor,
whether you go as a couple whichwould be awesome or as one half
of that couple, is hugelyhelpful, absolutely.
Now let me pivot and add tothat, frank.
What I've noticed is, you know,somebody just gave me a couple

(27:54):
of great books.
One of them was sacred marriageand another one was by Dr
Ornish, on intimacy and love andhow we really need intimacy and
love to be fully successful,fully blessed humans, and we all
kind of know that.
My point is what I enjoy aboutyou using the emotion focused
therapy.
You're using the Gottmans.

(28:14):
I just need somebody to listento me right now.

Speaker 3 (28:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:18):
I just need somebody to sit there for 45 minutes an
hour, whatever it is, andoftentimes, Frank, I'm finding
that a lot of women that I sitwith and these are married
pastors or people in ministrythat's all they really want.
Yes, Does you find that?

Speaker 3 (28:33):
Yes, Because and I say a lot of pastors too, and as
pastors, being a pastor for 20years is that we here's the
scripture, you know, here's theantidote to your problem.
We were as men, let's fix it.
And when I, when I, when I talkand sit with women wives,
there's like my husband justwants to fix it, but I don't
want to fix it.

(28:53):
It's that joke we always hear,and we always hear it in
marriage conferences and suchthat that woman just wants to be
heard.
And I always tell men, ask herdoes she want to be held once?
You want to be heard or doesshe want to be hugged?
That's good.

Speaker 1 (29:08):
That's so good.
Do you want to be held, heardor hugged?
Because that's a bigdistinction.
Yes, big difference.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
Yes and so, and the thing that I have to teach men
and help men to work on is thisskill called empathy, and I like
to play.
I tell them I play a game.
In my mind whenever I starteddoing this is what is the
emotion that my wife is tryingto share with me right now, and
even if I get it wrong in namingthe emotion, so I trying to

(29:38):
share with me right now, andeven if I get it wrong in naming
the emotion, so I call the gamename the emotion game.
So she's sharing with mesomething and I says, babe, that
must feel ugly and hard right.

Speaker 1 (29:42):
She says no, I was kind of excited actually, oh,
tell me more.

Speaker 3 (29:43):
I was off on that one and so.
But it's what it does.
Is trains the man to empathizewith the woman, and I do this
exercise in my workshop, where Ihave the woman share for two
minutes.
What are you, what do you feela champion in, and what do you
feel like you were just uh, youknow, just was chaotic in in
life, and men just sit there andlisten, just sit there and

(30:07):
listen, and after the twominutes right.
And I'd ask the man what was itlike to hear your wife talk to
you for two minutes?
And a lot of men were like Ijust wanted to fix this and do
this.
And I asked the wife what wasit like for you to share with
your husband like this?
And she said I felt heard.

Speaker 1 (30:24):
Yes, there it is.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
I felt heard.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
And I think I can speak for the women, because I'm
a woman.
It's just needing to feel heard.

Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
Like.
I'm just trying to lay it outthere.
I don't need you to reach overand fix it or try to tell me
something or send me to a linkor send me a meme or a reel.
Just sit and look at me andlisten.
Yeah yeah.
Unadulterated attention is thehighest compliment.

Speaker 3 (30:48):
Right, because you say something like the man would
say why don't you do A, b and C?
And the wife would go I did doA, b and C.
Well, what about X?
Y?
I did do X, y and then nowwe're back into this cycle.
I call it the negative cycle ofconflict.
Wow.
Right, and so now we're intothis conflict and why were we
fighting about again Right?
And at the end of the day shejust wanted to be heard, and so

(31:09):
men just kind of missed the boaton that.
And it's important to learn.
And I give this book called IHear you.
I don't forget the author, butit's called I Hear you and it's
not by a therapist, it's from aguy who's gone through a lot of
therapy but he breaks it downinto just normal language for
men to read and just say whatdoes empathizing with your
spouse look like?
And it's important.

(31:32):
Empathy is a skill that a lotof husbands would need to learn
to create this emotional safetyin the relationship.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
And you know I'm going to advance that just one
step more.
I saw it was a comedy reel, butit was about a pastor saying
you know, whatever you give awoman, she multiplies it tenfold
.
So you know, you give her aseed, she's going to create a
garden.
You've seen this reel.
But if you give her trouble,you're going to get tenfold back

(32:01):
.
I love that you say that aboutmen learning empathy.
I think there is a definitepattern.
We're not trying to be sexistor racist or anything is here,
but there is a certain level oftruth and reporting that needs
to happen and so many womenwould be so grateful for that
that gift of empathy and, likeyou said in your example with
Julie, you know you guessed oh,were you feeling what that felt

(32:24):
ugly and harsh for you and she'slike no, I was actually really
excited.
But the excitement for us, alsoas women, is wow, you want to
talk about?
It.
You're opening up by asking aquestion which Jimmy on
relationships says oh yeah, sotell me how that felt.
And a lot of women are likewait, where's my husband?

Speaker 3 (32:38):
This is awesome right .

Speaker 1 (32:39):
You see it, you see the woman open up, because
whatever you give that woman andI have to say as a woman, I am
going to give it back to youtenfold.

Speaker 3 (32:52):
So if we want to start playing, attitude games.

Speaker 1 (32:54):
Oh, I am your mama.
Drama queen.
I got this, I will win thisgame, and then we get back into
that negative cycle.
Talk to me about EFT, which yousaid is emotion-focused therapy
.

Speaker 3 (33:00):
Yes, eft emotion-focused therapy was
created by another psychologist.
Her name was Dr Sue Johnson andbasically it's how can you be
vulnerable with your partner,your spouse?
The word vulnerable in Latin isto be wounded oh, wow it's
powerful, it's that knight'sterm when you're able, when you

(33:21):
took off your armor, when youtook off your armor in front of
your um enemy, there's a chanceto be wounded.
When you so that hence you putthe armor on so that you
wouldn't be vulnerable, youwouldn't be wounded.
So it happens between couplesand spouses is that I'm going to
put my armor on so I don't haveto be vulnerable, so you
wouldn't be wounded.
So it happens between couplesand spouses is that I'm going to
put my armor on so I don't haveto be vulnerable, so that you
don't wound me.
And so now we get kicked up inthis negative cycle.

(33:42):
Can we have so conflict?
Conflict is actually healthy.
If it's healthy, it draws youcloser.
It draws you closer now becauseyou're able to take off your
knight's armor and be able tohave these vulnerable
conversations when we move from.
They call it a secondary andprimary Secondary.
Think of it as an iceberg.

(34:02):
The tip of the iceberg is thosesecondary emotions, like mad or
upset, but underneath is allthese softer emotions that we
men don't know how tocommunicate, like embarrassed or
ashamed, and so or I was scared.
You know, if I tell men in theemotion focus when I'm doing
therapy with men, like, did youfeel scared, scared?

(34:23):
I don't feel scared.
I never feel scared.
But then, when we get talkingmore about it, I asked what were
you afraid of when she saidthat or gave you that?
Look, I was afraid she's gonnaleave me.
You know, I was ashamed becauseit made me feel less of a man.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
I wasn't being a leader of the home.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
And so it's these deeper, softer emotions where
they're like what I would askwhat was different in this
sharing with your wife?
And the husband would be likeI've never said those words
before, I've never shared myfears, I never told her I was
ashamed of being less of aleader.
That's why I would shut down,because I felt in my mind I was

(34:59):
failing.
Or I would just lash out orjust walk away, or I just
retreat to my phone and I feltashamed.
I felt like I was failing thesesoft emotions.
So emotion-focused therapyallows us to articulate these
softer emotions that areunderneath that waterline,
underneath that tip of theiceberg Right.
And now the wife is reallysaying these things like I've

(35:21):
never heard him talk like this,I've never realized that was
really going on underneath allof that.

Speaker 1 (35:28):
Frank, I love that you just said all of that.
I actually want to cry hearingthat, that there really is the
softer emotions for men and Iknow, growing up in Hawaiii,
right, yeah, local boy actionright, you got to have that
stiff upper lip.
In the irish culture, my lastname is o'brien and you got to
take your licks and just keepgoing, and that's what we kind
of, in a sense, beat into ourboys.

(35:50):
Yeah, don't show your emotions,um, you either feel mad, bad or
sad right it's not we don't havemuch emotional language beyond
that but allowing our kane, ourmen, to have those experiences
and to be the vulnerable warriorwhen you walk through that door
.
And even if you know I'm in arelationship where I allow that

(36:11):
man we're not married but we'rejust to be right and to not have
to have the armor on because,I'm not going to take a swing at
you or stab you or send a fierydart to your head.
I had a gentleman friend tell merecently he sent me something
on Instagram and it was about aprofessional athlete and this
girl who was dating him, a woman.

(36:32):
She said I was dating him.
I thought, you know, it's allabout the score.
There's all these other womenin his life and he had chosen me
to be his girlfriend and shewas this beautiful, articulate,
smart, wonderful woman.
You could tell.
But she said at one point shesaid, oh, I'm going to be the
hard to get one, I will alwaysbe your challenge.

(36:59):
And he looked at her and he saidone word why I spend a lot of
my time out there trying to domy job, trying to be the
professional being on media,doing all these things.
Why do I need to come to?
this yeah to home, to my saferelationship and feel unsafe,
like I have to keep working yeah, why and she said he didn't
even have to explain all of that, but she got it and and it
stopped right then.
And there, Wow, that even for aman who is a hero to many on

(37:19):
the media in sports you knowaccolades looks like he has it
all together, doesn't want tohave to come home and keep
fighting.
Yeah, yeah, Does that makesense?
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (37:27):
And you know, I tell men like you know what, put the
armor up when you're with theguys, because you know we need
the armor up emotionally whenthey got, you know, the military
or construction, whatever jobespecially, and women too you
got to get the objective done,accomplished and that you know,
like the old that movie there'sno crying in baseball, of course
, because you got to get the jobdone.
However, when you're at home,the armor has to come off down

(37:51):
because that's where it needs toshow.
Wow, we call it co-regulation.
Yes.
Where you know the Bible talksabout in James, the book of
James.
It says confess your sins toanother so that you may be
healed.
Healing happens when you'reable to confess your sins.
Julie, babe, I just was soembarrassed at work today.
I was so, oh my gosh, I was soembarrassed or ashamed, and when

(38:16):
I'm able to share this with mywife, there's this healing that
happens inside of me.
Absolutely Right, and it's notshe's going to bring resolve to
my problems, but I feel thatshe's on my side.
Yes, she's available, she'sresponsive, she's engaging with
me and the same with me to her,when she comes home from work,
what I've learned, right,because my mistakes as well,
being her being a kindergartenteacher she's come coming back

(38:39):
and just drained from the day oh, babe, my work and this, and
that I'm not coming back.
Well, you should do this.
And now she's like she's gonnathink what?
I'm a teacher, you're not right.
What are you doing?
Frank?
But if I, just how was it?
Oh my gosh how did you feel,yeah, that must have been tiring
, exhausting.
Oh, my goodness, if I was you, Iwould have pulled my hair out.
And she's like yes.

(38:59):
And so there's this closenessthat we're having, just by
empathizing, just by allowingher to take her armor off and
being safe with me.

Speaker 1 (39:09):
Wow, so it's co-regulation and we're a team.

Speaker 3 (39:13):
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (39:14):
And so let's swing to that a little bit.
And you started touching on it.
Frank, you're exceptional.
Thank you, everything so far.
I'm just gobbling it up.
I feel like a spy in thepromised land.
I'm still single, but I'mlearning how to do it different,
because I have been engagedthree times, I've been the
runaway bride three times andalways backed off the line.
But what I hear in you is hopeand that God's promises really

(39:37):
are true.
One of the things you glancedoff of and I started saying that
was conflict.
All I had ever seen in myfamily was divorce and a lot of
mean fighting, like not we're onthe same team.
We're gonna address a fewthings so that we can go back
out and keep charging the fieldand keep playing the game or
living life, but it was now I'mgoing to start fighting you

(40:00):
Right and I will win.
And the object or the goal ofarguing is not I'm going to win,
but how do I win?

Speaker 3 (40:08):
you.

Speaker 1 (40:09):
Talk to me about what is healthy conflict.

Speaker 3 (40:12):
Yeah, so healthy conflict and, according to John
Gott, got me.
So let's talk about those fourhorsemen, right?
So if there's criticism, thenthe criticism, the antidote to
criticism, is having what'scalled soft startups.
Soft startups, you probablyheard and you know with your
background in communication, iswhere you use I statements, I
feel about what and I need,which is the request.

(40:32):
Not that you're going to honormy request, but at least least
I'm going to start this in asoft, gentle way, instead of
criticizing you.
You never this, and I read yourmind, I know what you're
thinking, right, and so, insteadof that, it says you know, I
was kind of hurt when I thoughtI heard you say this and I would
appreciate if you'd say thisdifferently.
It presents a softer way instarting this up.

(40:55):
And then the next one iscontempt.
With contempt I do want toaddress that, because with
contempt, dr John Gottman says,when you have a contempt mindset
, there's a 95% of divorce more.

Speaker 1 (41:05):
Holy smack 95.

Speaker 3 (41:07):
So 90% of the four horsemen.
But if there's a contempt whichis I'm better there's a 95% of
divorce if contempt is rulingthe relationship.
And so if we start thiscontempt and you're my spouse
and I'm looking down at you, youknow what, You're always this
and you're always that, I don'tknow why.
And so if I had that mentality,this relationship is definitely

(41:28):
going to end.

Speaker 1 (41:28):
It's doomed.

Speaker 3 (41:29):
Yeah.
So the antidote to that andcontempt is what's called
appreciation.

Speaker 1 (41:35):
Oh, wow.

Speaker 3 (41:35):
Simple Wow.
Antidote to that and contemptis what's called appreciation.
Oh wow, Simple right.
And so obviously it's not inthat moment that's going to heal
the moment, but it's the smallthings that matter along the way
.
That's a line phrase that DrJohn Gottman really wants to
coin.
Is that small things matter?

Speaker 1 (41:49):
What.

Speaker 3 (41:50):
Small things matter.
It's because, if I say it alongthe time, just throughout the
relationship, you know what Ireally appreciate when you did
that.
The contempt now begins to eventhe playing field.
Now where I don't look down atthe person or my wife, now we're
looking at each other.
I appreciate when you did this.
Hey thank you so much for doingthat.
You know I really that meant alot to me.
It's a small thingsappreciation, small things that

(42:14):
matter also includes if you wereto hold the hand of your
partner and he holds his handout right.
It's those bids for affection,those bids for connection.
If you start a conversation andhe's like, oh, I don't want to
hear it, then you lose thatopportunity for that bid.
But, if you start a conversation, he engages with you.
It's the small things Right.

(42:35):
It's the small things right.
It's a small things along theway.

Speaker 1 (42:37):
It's like being at the dinner table or going out on
a date and that person isconstantly checking their phone
yeah or right?
Like what is so important?
Like I get it if you're aneuroscience or you're at the
general or some kind of surgeon,but otherwise, why are we
constantly on the phone?
Yeah I'm reaching out for thatconnection.
Like you said that bid forconnection.
Please reach back and connectwith me.

Speaker 3 (42:58):
Yeah, because you can either turn towards and
continue the conversation youcould turn away and just totally
ignore what you're saying or Icould turn against you.
Where you come for a connection, I'm like what, I don't got
time for this.
We got stuff to do right now.
And so there's those smallthings.
It all matters.
And so a lot of couples theythink, man, the husband will

(43:19):
think I'm gonna plan thisamazing getaway weekend at what
such and such hotel and it'sgonna be amazing time and it's
gonna make everything better.
No, it's just gonna yeah forthat bit.
But then you go back to thoseold cycles again and so don't
think the great getaway weekendis going to resolve all those
weeks and months of those bidsthat did that you missed right,

(43:41):
so I spend one weekend at thespa at alani with you and then
51 other weekends

Speaker 1 (43:46):
exactly into my pillow saying death by a million
paper cuts right like pleasestop checking your phone all the
time.
I feel really wounded when youcall me names right or you
transgress my boundaries, etcetera.
I love that.
And then, just to recap, yousaid there's the turn toward.

Speaker 3 (44:03):
Yeah, there's the turn away.
And the last one, I didn'trealize, turning against Holy
smack yeah, which is the worstone of all, absolutely but the
last two are very damaging.
Right, right.

Speaker 1 (44:14):
So we don't want to turn away and we don't want to
turn against.
We definitely want to turntoward your partner and keep
trying to work it out.

Speaker 3 (44:21):
Yeah, it's that word that we use being present.
Being present, being attentiveeye to eye.
When I do couples work,especially my workshops, I do
look at your partner eye to eye,knee to knee, kind of thing.
Wow, because it's so easy tojust go side by side and just
talk, just like this.

(44:41):
Right, which I say, turn yourchairs towards each other and
have this conversation, stuffthey've never done in years, you
know, um.
But to your question about howdo we have, how do we mitigate,
how do we talk when we're inthis conflict?
Right, so there's the Istatements, and then I also do
this thing.
What where I have?
Um, I have them.
Practice listener, speaker, youknow, I'll give them a pillow,
okay, whoever has a pillow is aspeaker.
And then the listener.
Before the listener shares, thelistener has to summarize what

(45:04):
the speaker, what he heard, orshe heard the speaker say, right
, and so it's that simple, basiccommunication.

Speaker 1 (45:11):
I was going to say it's basic listening, basic
speaking.

Speaker 3 (45:14):
Yes.

Speaker 1 (45:15):
But a lot of that gets lost.

Speaker 3 (45:16):
It gets lost.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
In the years or in all of the things that are going
on in the busyness of liferight.
Yeah.
And then you're sitting thereholding a pillow going wait, I
have to remember what they saidso I can paraphrase it back to
them.

Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, the foundation of every relationship over the
course of time is friendship.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Wow, say that again.

Speaker 3 (45:33):
Friendship, friendship.

Speaker 1 (45:35):
The foundation since the creation of relationship is
friendship.

Speaker 3 (45:39):
Yeah, and Dr John Gottman.
He has this analogy of a house,the sound house, the seven
principles, and you know, wewant to have the amazing dreams
that as a couple we want to getto and do all these things for
God.
But we can't do that if wedon't have a good friendship.
I know a lot of couples who arestill together because they

(46:00):
know the divorce is wrong in theeyes of the Lord and they got
kids so they don't want adivorce, but they're not friends
and so they live a parallelmarriage under the same roof.

Speaker 1 (46:08):
I read a statement you had on your website where it
says we are like roommates witha few privileges, and that's a
sad statement of affairs, but Iknow too many of those.
And like you said.
Well, it's wrong to get adivorce, or I'll wait till the
kids grow up and then we'll getthe divorce and I'm like wait
what this is not God in hisfullness about the promise of

(46:30):
marriage.
Jesus never told his bride well, we can live together upstairs,
but we're not going to crossover and be together.
I'm never going to eat at yourtable.

Speaker 3 (46:38):
Yeah, which is why I love when, at a lot of marriage
conferences, they emphasize datenights, which is huge, right,
and it doesn't have to be somebig budget things, however, so
date nights are important.
In addition to that, I talkabout having what's called love
maps.
You know, back in Kapoleibefore Kapolei was Kapolei it
was Sugar King.

(46:58):
Yep.
Right now in the 90s and suchNow Kapolei, if you have.
Back then we didn't have GPSsystems right, and if it did it
was very expensive.
And you had these maps.
You had to as a military, youhad to land, navigate from point
A to point B and all these kindof things, from point A to
point B and all these kind ofthings.
But now if I was to take thatold school map that I had in
1990 of the Ewa Beach Plains andI was to take it to Kapolei now

(47:20):
, like wait, what is this?

Speaker 1 (47:23):
What is this?
There's no such thing.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
And the principle of that same thing with love maps
is, when June and I firstmarried, or first got together
in that first year, I knew sheliked the color purple.
I knew she liked the colorpurple.
I knew she liked these kind ofclothes.
I knew she liked this kind ofice cream, etc.
Her friends was such and such.
And then now, because we'vebeen married at this time, about
19 years, wow, if I say, oh,your favorite color is purple,

(47:48):
you like this ice cream, yourgood friend is such and such is
like, oh, no, I don't hang onwith her anymore, I like this
other color.
I need to update my love mapswith her.
And so, again, the small thingsthat matter get paying
attention to.
So who's your good friend now?
What do you like to do now?
What kind of food do you liketo eat now?
So, knowing those small thingsalong the way, updating those

(48:09):
love maps, is what I alwaysencourage couples.
So it's not just the datenights and we don't do date
nights just so that we can eat,talk stories and watch a movie
but it's an opportunity to haveconversations between you and
your spouse, to update thoselove maps.
So talk about, yes, the dreamsand the goals and all those
things, but also the things thatyou talked about when you're
dating right, those love maps.

(48:30):
That needs to be updated.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
So still pursuing each other it's funny because
we'll get the newest iPhone, butwe didn't update with our
partner, so we're stilloperating with the iPhone 1.
And it's like yo, we got a tonof new stuff going on right here
.
I love that, frank, and oh mygosh, I didn't realize time is
flying by because I'm consumingall this really great
information that's practical.
Now talk to us before we stepout, and don't worry, we have

(48:54):
time.
I Now talk to us before we stepout, and don't worry, we have
time.
I know you have time, but it'simportant for me to let everyone
who's watching know and pleaseshare the word.
Frank and his team, I know youhave a co-founder over there at
your wonderful clinic, but youguys do something that's called
the seven principles for makingmarriage work.
It's a short seminar.
Either I could go for a coupleof days or even have it for a

(49:14):
couple of hours.

Speaker 3 (49:15):
Is that true?

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Tell me what is the seven principles of making
marriage work.

Speaker 3 (49:19):
So, going back to the foundation of the Soundhouse
Relationship Theory created byDr John Gottman, the foundation
is friendship, and again talkabout the love maps.
So friendship is the foundation.
The next principle there ismanaging conflict, excuse me
friendship and admiration, sorry.
So that whole friendship isthree levels.
You have the admiration part,admiring each other, being fond

(49:41):
of each other.
What I love about you is thatkind of statements, having to
talk about the turning towardsand not turning against.
So I talk about those things.
That's huge.
Yes, exactly Huge, because alot of couples just turn away
because they just don't know howto talk about that.
And so having friendship,having this fondness and
admiration, is the secondprinciple of turning towards.

(50:03):
And when we have those threeprinciples, you have what's
called a positive sentiment.
Of course, when you have a goodfriendship and you're fond of
each other and you have thisengagement of each other you can
be positive.
If those things don't happen,it's a negative sentiment, Right
?
So those three principles areimportant.
The fourth one is managingconflict.

(50:23):
So because eventually the wholewhat's called limerence, the
honeymoon stage, it kind offades and then now we start
getting into some arguments.
How do we do that?
So when it comes to conflict,then we start talking about how
to have, how do we compromise.
So we do a thing calledcompromising circles where we
talk about what are thenegotiables and non-negotiables,

(50:44):
what are the topics and stufflike that.
And so we talk about how torepair.
Repairing is huge.
I always say repair is greaterthan resolve.

Speaker 1 (50:52):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (50:53):
What do you?

Speaker 1 (50:53):
mean by that?

Speaker 3 (50:54):
So repair is great.
So 70% of conflict areunresolvable between a couple.
Right, I like blue, she likespink.
What do we do right?
One person is Democrat, theother one is Republican, what do
you do, you know?
And so it's unresolvable.
So how do we compromise?
How do we work through that?
I don't have the answer, but Idon't.

(51:17):
When couples come to see me, Idon't tell who's right and who's
wrong.
I don't care about content.
What I care about is how youargue, how a process is greater
than content.
So, going back, what is repairis greater than resolve.
We can't resolve it.
So if we can't resolve it, howcan we repair things?
How can repair?
If I was to say something,let's just say I said something
julie, and it was wrong, it wasbad, and I was off on that, and

(51:40):
we have, we get into our ownnegative cycle.
Repairing means it's like thatdirector on the movie set all
right, cut, let's take two oh,wow and so is these repair
statements that I give couples.
one of them I my favorite.
It's like Can I do that again?
Right or I came off wrong.
I'm so sorry, let's try thatagain.

Speaker 1 (52:01):
So you literally take in golf terminology a mulligan,
exactly A do-over.

Speaker 3 (52:06):
A do-over Second chance dance.
Yes, exactly.

Speaker 1 (52:10):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (52:11):
Repair is so greater than resolve.

Speaker 1 (52:12):
I never even heard of this.
I love repair Because I thinkwe all mess up and we always say
I need a second chance.
I know with Jesus I've neededlike a second zillion ukulele
million billion chance.
And if we can extend that tothe person that we cherish the
most in the whole wide world andfor many of us, it's your
spouse and it's your other half.

(52:32):
That's huge.
Repair is better than resolve.
I'm a big believer, frank.
How do you learn all this stuff, by the way?
Oh, I mean, I know you have amaster's degree, I know you're
certified, but you're just awealth of really good wisdom.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
And it's simple.
That's why I can remember it.
It's simple, I like simple.

Speaker 1 (52:52):
No, we all love simple, because and I was
speaking earlier with some otherpeople and Every Day Better and
he kind of does the sameapproach.
I don't know if you know EricYamashita awesome guy, west side
pastor dad and he does the samething and he spoke to a few
things that you brought up rightnow, also with men needing um
affirmation, just simple thingslike honey.

(53:14):
I appreciate that you took thetrash out.

Speaker 3 (53:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:16):
Honey, I love that you gave me five, five minutes
of eye contact, right, whichmight kind of freak him out and
break the eye contact, butnonetheless let's say it right.
So he spoke to that.
The validation of men thatseems to have disappeared in
this culture.
And yet men really, accordingto Ephesians and a lot of other
great books in the Bible, aswell as a lot of other books on
marriage, say we need to affirmour men and give them respect.

(53:37):
And it's almost a culturethat's being desecrated and
denigrated by the devil.
Come on Strategically, yeah, butwhat I really was driving to
with that point, with what hesaid, is every day better is
bite sized chunks of goodness.
And you're doing it similarlywith relationships, because at
this point in humanity we see alot of chaos, a lot of confusion

(54:00):
.
The devil has come to steal,kill and destroy and he's
especially hammering atmarriages.
He's even aborting marriagesbefore they even start.
We see so many of our couplesmyself the foremost of sinners
with three engagements brokenthat don't make it to the
marriage line, because that'sthe devil aborting it.
And that was the principle.

(54:20):
This is coming back full circleto what I said and when we were
in Bible college.
The Terminator comes from thefuture and he comes back to the
present, knowing the future,calling on that couple knowing
the future call on theirchildren, or on their children's
children to the third and thefourth generation.
And so he comes back in time toabort that before it begins.

(54:42):
And what Frank and I are sayingand again Frank is a qualified
exceptional counselor what we'resaying is let's give Jesus'
love a chance, let's givemarriage and sanctified
relationships a chance, becauseyou're worth it, because we're
worth it yeah and because we arethe bride of christ and we

(55:04):
represent, as the church, thegreatest union in all of
existence, amen.
Okay, that was kind of a bigstatement, but I really believe
it.
Obviously frank.
Would you add to that, as webegin to bring this in for a
landing?

Speaker 3 (55:17):
Yeah, I want to say that we need to fight for our
couples.
We need to fight for ourrelationships, thank you.
My motto, the thing that Ialways love to say, is if I can
help a couple, I can help afamily.
If I can help a family, I canhelp a community.
Come on.
And even before that, if we canhelp the men, as the Bible talks

(55:39):
about the men as the leader ofthe household, and just helping
the men understand that you havea mantle of leadership.
Hey, mom and dad, you're notjust doing mom and dad stuff,
you're creating a generation ofleaders, and so let's work on
this dynamic.
Let's work on what it means tohave a healthy marriage.
I mean more than having a hugechurch and having these huge
ministries or huge organizations, more than having a huge church

(56:01):
and having these hugeministries or huge organizations
.
What's going to create thathugeness and healthiness is the
marriage dynamic.
It's going to birth thesechildren who are going to be
powerful entrepreneurs andpowerful, whatever government
leaders and pastors and leaders.

Speaker 1 (56:13):
Missionaries and everything.
Moms, dads, every single thingthat God has called us to do
will be powerful.
I'm sorry to interrupt so.

Speaker 3 (56:19):
I want to just kind of, you know, just add to your
point is that we, I.
This is why, after 20 years ofministry, I felt God called me
to do this is because the thingthat was always on my calendar
when I was in ministry wasmeeting with a couple, meeting
with this couple and that coupleministry leaders and not
ministry leaders.

Speaker 1 (56:39):
Right, everyone is hurting.
And then meeting with the youthand the children who are
suffering from hard marriages intheir home.

Speaker 3 (56:45):
Yes, Right, as a substance abuse counselor, I was
meeting with youth and I askedthem so where did you learn
marijuana and alcohol and allthat?
Oh, my dad gave it to me.
Oh, I see my mom and dad goafter this.
I had a was who was smokingmarijuana at five years old
because dad didn't want to dealwith his noise and stuff like
that, because he dad was on hismarijuana binge, and and and

(57:07):
meth and whatever kind of thing.
So he and so now this young man, 18 years old and just
marijuana just running throughhis brains and messing him up,
my heart broke because it morevalid inside of me I says, says
I need to really make marriagein a ministry, make marriage
therapy my priority.

Speaker 1 (57:27):
And you went after the mom and the dad, the husband
and the wife, but you're alsocertified as a counselor at Hino
, malco, as we said, which helpsour youth, which helps the
children.
We're living in a time of direneed for both and I just want to
thank you, previous pastorFrank.
We're living in a time of direneed for both and I just want to
thank you, um, previous pastorfrank.
He's now fighting on anotherwhole, nother level, with our
marriages and our children, andyou're part of again.

(57:49):
Enjoy life, hawaiicounselingcom.
That's enjoy life, hawaiicounseling you havea great
website.
I was all over it taking chokenotes and then I got him live in
person.
You also do the sevenprinciples for making marriage
work and what I loved about that, frank one more footnote on it
was all over it taking chokenotes and then I got him live in
person.
You also do the sevenprinciples for making marriage
work and what I loved about that, frank one more footnote on it
is you said to me personally yousaid my prayer is that I can
offer this to military groups tochurches to nonprofit

(58:12):
organizations.
I mean, it sounds like you'regoing to go and be like at the
corner of Allah Park teachingeverybody, you just be that
preacher on the corner.

Speaker 3 (58:19):
We got seven principles right now.
Turn toward turn away and turnagainst right.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
But that's how much your heart beats for helping
marriages, because the devil'sheart is to decimate marriages
but the father's heart is tobring unity and restoration and
whole homes and holy families.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
Amen exactly.

Speaker 1 (58:40):
So thank you for fighting for that in a
tremendous way.
Can we have you back?
May I have you back.
And restoration and whole homesand holy families.
So thank you for fighting forthat in a tremendous way.

Speaker 3 (58:45):
Can we have you back?
May I have you back on AlohaLive.

Speaker 1 (58:46):
I would love to you are a wealth of goodness.
I love your bride, julie.
I love all of your kids.
They're super cute.
So, once again, the contactinformation.
And if you just want littlenuggets, like we were saying, of
everyday goodness or everydaybetter, everyday everyday bites,
he's on ig, instagram.
And if you're um, if my unclejimmy can do instagram and I got

(59:07):
auntie maggie margie out theredoing instagram, she's in her 93
okay, you can do instagram.
He is at frank underscorecouples underscore counselor.
We're going to put that up onthe screen and have it in the
show notes.
That's at frank underscorecouples underscore counselor and
we're going to put that up onthe screen and have it in the
show notes.
That's at Frank underscorecouples underscore counselor and
he puts up funny stuff, but healso puts up those quick little
bite-sized nuggets of goodnessfor all of us.

(59:28):
And then again the websiteenjoylifehawaiicounselingcom.
Frank, last question what isaloha to you?

Speaker 3 (59:36):
Aloha.
You know, born and raised inHawaii, the concept that I've
always seen is just differentcultures coming in and just
loving them where they're at,Loving them with their
background, their tradition,their decisions, Just loving
them where they're at.
And I think that's what Godjust exposed me, prepared me for
.
He says love people wherethey're at.
It's not my job to changepeople.

(59:56):
It's my job to love them andallow the Holy Spirit to do the
changes in their life.

Speaker 1 (01:00:00):
Wow, which is why he has a great counseling ministry
and a great career.
Thank you so much again, frankDeGrasse, a Christian counseling
couples counselor, and again Ilike to say the three words that
I teach at his wife's schooland many other schools with
Choose Aloha and he just said itthat we love everyone.
Aloha always wins, aloha alwayswins, aloha always wins.

(01:00:23):
Thanks for joining us on.
Aloha Alive.
We'll see you again soon.