Leviticus and Hebrews: Part Nine

In tonight’s Bible study we finish Hebrews chapter 10 (with a detour into James 1), and that’s it! So much to wrestle with in these verses! We hope you are blessed by the conversation.

Become a supporter of this podcast: https://www.spreaker.com/podcast/alternatively-formerly-conspiracy-pilled--6248227/support.

Follow our new Bible Study Channel - No Wrong Questions on YouTube!
https://www.youtube.com/@NoWrongQuestions

Support the show, access all of our episodes ad free, and get bonus OVERDOSE episodes on LOCALS - https://alternatively.locals.com

MERCH - https://conspiracypilled.com/collections/all 

Join the DISCORD - https://discord.gg/c8Acuz7vC9 

Give this podcast a 5 Star Review - 
https://ratethispodcast.com/conspiracypilled 

Middleborne Arms – https://middlebornearms.com
Because swords are awesome!

North Arrow Coffee- https://northarrowcoffee.co 
Use code CONSPIRACY10 to get 10% off your order! 

The Show — @_Alternatively on X
Abby — @abbythelibb_ on X and Instagram
Liz — @adelethelaptop on X
Jon — @Kn0tfersail on X

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:50):
And welcome to No Wrong Questions Bible Study on the
alternatively channel Levitic Kiss and Hebrews Part nine. Yeah, that
sounds right, Oh, I us remind you about the thumbnail.
I okay, I'm terrible. We just recorded part eight, so
for us, we did seven with you live last night,
just recorded eight, just recorded nine, which just been there's

(01:15):
a nice continuity to ideas. I'm just gonna pray before
you get started, and then we'll dive in. Dear Lord,
thank you so much for this day. I know Liz
and I are a little bit headachey. I pray that
you would help us with that and help that not
to influence or or negatively impact the Bible City tonight,
and that we would just have a clear eyed view
of your word, and that your word would bless us

(01:37):
and bless the listeners, and that we would not get
anything wrong, or if we do get something wrong, that
you would flag at the minds of the listeners so
that we don't need anyone astray. And again just that
everybody listening would be blessed and learn something from you tonight.
Your name Amen, well.

Speaker 2 (01:52):
I appaich with the part I'm not headache, it's just
mys were weeping out of my face.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
I'm peacefully, I'm head. Let's woke up with my nose.
I was like, Wow, there's a lot that's not in there.
It was not And now your scientists are doing things. Yeah,
but they've calmed down for the moment.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
There might be a single tear that's gonna slid downside
from that.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
We are both experiencing things of some nature, malfunctions, malfunctions,
technical difficulty. So we were We're going to pick up
halfway through Hebrews ten. We ran out of time last night,
last last night, last night, this morning after it's it's
not last night for us, it's not last night for you.

(02:36):
That's completely wrong time, last part, this time we we
left off Hebrews ten, verse ninety, the section full Assurance
of faith. So there are four brothers, since we have hate.

Speaker 3 (02:51):
How I read that their four brother our four brothers,
therefore brothers, since we have confidence to enter the holy
places by the blood of Jesus, by the new and
living way that he opened for us through the curtain,
that is through his flash.

Speaker 1 (03:04):
And since we have a great high priest over the
House of God. And this just said great priest is
no high Oh you're right, great priest over the House
of God. Let us draw near with a true heart
and full assurance of faith, with our heart sprinkled clean
from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,
for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider

(03:26):
how to stir up one another to love and good works,
not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some,
but encouraging one another. And all the more as you
see the day drawing near.

Speaker 2 (03:36):
Real quick that verse, let us hold fast the confession
of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful.
That's when I think that people use to say, oh,
you can lose your salvation because you can stop the
confession of your hope. But I think the idea is
just like, don't lose hope, don't be disheartened because he's faithful,
so like we can keep in this hope. But it
doesn't mean, oh, if you lose hope, you lose salvation.

(03:58):
I don't know if anyone is taken it that way,
but I like I've noticed in myself versus that have
made me like, oh wait, no, is it saying this?
And I'm like, okay, I'm attaching a meaning of like
if this thing is true, then therefore this has to
be And I was just realizing that doesn't mean what
my brain autoloads.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
Yeah. Actually, so let me just because I talked about
in the last ah, now I did the wrong thing.
I did the wrong thing. Oh damn. Let's see. Let's
just hop over to James real quick, because I was
struck by something when I was I'm I'm doing a
with the church ladies at the church, I go to

(04:34):
doing a James study, like, and I'm way behind because
they actually started it right when I gave birth to Gideon.
So I'm like trying to catch up.

Speaker 2 (04:45):
Going pretty slowly through it then, because it's not as
long as the four chapters am.

Speaker 1 (04:49):
I Yeah, I think that they're probably in I don't
even know. Yeah it is. It is like a kind
of slow plotting study that pulls in a lot of
other scripture. But I am definitely like starting at the
beating of the book that I haven't done yet, Like
I've attended the studies, but I have not actually been
doing the work this chapter of I ever read the

(05:09):
previous one okay, So James one says, let's see no,
starting in verse two, count it all, Joy's joy, count
it all, joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of
various kinds, for you know that the testing of your
faith produces steadfastness, and let steadfastness have its full effect,

(05:33):
that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
So this idea of the testing of your faith producing
this like holding on to your faith kind of yeah thing,
and this that that having its full effect, that you
may be perfect and complete, lacking and nothing. And I

(05:53):
don't remember what verse it was, but you brought it up.
It was an earlier chapter of Hebrews where Jesus his
faith was perfected. Yeah, yeah, yeah, through his suffering. And
I got thinking about that. So here's my new theory
about losing your salvation because there's this whole huh, there's
this whole conversation about if somebody you think someone's a

(06:14):
Christian and they fall away, were they ever really saved?
You know that whole like right right, If you don't
believe someone can lose your salvation. Basically you say, any
of those people were never really safe, which there is
a verse in John the First John that seems to
play that, but go on here. Yeah, yeah, And there
is the parable of the sewer where one of the

(06:35):
instances of the parable, the seed is sown and it
does sprout, but it doesn't properly take root, and then
it gets stolen away by a bird. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (06:48):
Oh no, I think it dies in the heat. It
has a shallow root system. Oh, the birds breached on
this recently. The bird steals the ones that don't sprout
at all, like they're just on the and yes, yes,
the ones without any like, yeah, they don't yeah the
soil shall They don't properly take root, and they shrivel

(07:08):
up and die.

Speaker 1 (07:13):
So how is my process? Are basically you, I think
that your faith and your salvation are slightly separate things.
Hear me out. Okay, So if somebody says I believe
in Jesus, that's a declaration of faith. M And then

(07:33):
a couple of years later they say, I don't believe
in Jesus anymore. I've lost my faith. I think you
can lose your faith without losing your salvation. But if
you lose your faith, you weren't saved, you weren't like
and it's the testing of your faith. That proves whether
or not you were actually saved.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah, I think it might just be like a terminology
thing in my head, because I my pastor did preach
about that the parallel of the sower recently needed to
talk about how you know you can tell if someone
was truly saved like this?

Speaker 1 (08:04):
This is why what are they called not armchair confessions?

Speaker 2 (08:08):
But I don't know why my brain is misapplying that
alter calls are not actually edifying for the church, because
what happens is the pastors just preached arousing sermon and
then there's you know, moving music going, and that a
bunch of people feel on a tide of emotion, and
they go and make their profession, and then in a

(08:29):
week or so when the cares of life come, they've
already forgotten about it. Actually, apparently the person who instituted
altar calls, like who created them was a straight a paratic.
I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with alter calls necessarily.
I don't think that they accomplish what you think you're accomplishing,
because we count those as conversions. But I think the
trials and things that come up are what test. Okay,
was this so legitimate conversion. Yes, And I do want

(08:52):
to say so this is the terminology I would flipple over.
The testing of your faith is to prove whether it's
faith or not or just something masquading as faith. Because
the whole point of James is you can say you
have faith, but if you don't have actions, you don't
have faith faith. So is your faith fools gold or
real gold?

Speaker 1 (09:09):
Sure? Sure? And I think that another like addition to
this is that there is a difference between having faith
in Jesus and having faith in your faith, and whether
you lose your faith and then you're like, Okay, I'm
done with God. You kind of prove that your faith
was in your faith. In other words, your faith was
in yourself to save yourself through the strength of your faith,

(09:31):
as opposed to having actual saving faith in Jesus. So
just the faith in and of itself, if it isn't
proven to be in Jesus and rooted in Jesus and
producing works and producing fruit, there's like approving. And I
think that one thing I'm like kind of trying to

(09:52):
figure out through this study that I'm in right now
is what is the role of trials seems in part
to prove whether your faith is real or not, because
you had said faith in you yourself. But I think
it's also like faith in happy feelings because women you've
done that sermon in the pastor is like oh, and
you've been saying from your saying, you're like, wow, I

(10:13):
love this so much. And then the rubber meets the
road of life, and that's when the happy feelings go away.

Speaker 2 (10:18):
And you see, Okay, it was the faith on the
happy feelings. And did it go away when the happy
feelings went away? Or is it still there?

Speaker 1 (10:23):
Yeah? I mean I think there's all different different kinds
of way, different ways saying the same thing. Well, different
facets of different ways you can have misplace different things
you can misplace your faith on. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, okay,
So back back to Hebrews. Also, this refers back to

(10:44):
kind of a question we were sorry verse nineteen through twenty.
Real quick, therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter
the holy places by the blood of Jesus, by the
new and living way that he opened for us through
the curtain, that is, through his flesh, kind of refers
back to this question we were quibbling over in Hebrews nine,

(11:05):
where oh, oh, I know what you talk about. Yeah,
let me find it so that we can read it
real quick. And then and then and then okay Hebrews nine,
verse six. Let's see these preparations having thus been made,
the priests go regularly into the first section the holy
you know, the regular temple, holy place, performing their ritual duties.

(11:26):
But into the second only the high priest goes in
he but once a year, and not without taking blood,
which he offers for himself and for the unintentional sins
of the people. By this, the Holy Spirit indicates that
the way into the holy places is not yet opened
as long as the first section is still standing, which
is symbolic for the present age.

Speaker 2 (11:44):
So when the sorry, my eyes just wondering, my understanding
is when whatever chapter it is that we're on later
is talking about the curtain, that is Jesus is flesh.
So Jesus's body was broken on the cross right as
the curtain and the temple was torn and not opened
the way into the Holy Place, the most holy place,
because the most holy Place isn't open until we're in
face to face with God in heaven with him.

Speaker 1 (12:06):
But it says here, since we have confidence to enter
the holy places, by the blood of Jesus. Yeah, so
the holy place not the most holy faith place. The
holy place is like the heavenly holy places. That's a
good point. So maybe we just can I'll just present that,
and those of you who were who were engaged in
that conversation from the last part, you can add that

(12:26):
to your mulling. I don't think we have any answer,
but yeah, I just it seemed to connect back, so
we'll just leave that. Well. Also, I did real quick
before we kind of moved on from it.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
But the first John two nineteen is the verse they
went out from us, but they did not really belong
to us, or if they had belonged to us, they
would have remained with us. But they're going show that
none of them blocked to us. So when people say, well,
it's unbiblical to say that, like this is the biblical
basis for that.

Speaker 1 (12:48):
I think that what people get tripped up on is
this belief that as soon as you pray the prayer
you are definitely saved, without recognizing how often someone can
pray the prayer and be full of the emotion, like
you said, the happy feelings of them of the moment,
and and there there's gonna be I think nothing in

(13:11):
the moment where you can know for sure and tell
the testing has come yea. And it's the testing that proves.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
And that's why, like the sinner's prayer is also a
potential issue that people can hung up on. I'm not
saying there's anything wrong with it, but being like, if
you say X, y Z words this incantation almost then
you are automatically saved. And it's like, well, people can
say things and not mean them though, so what actually
saves you is where your heart is right?

Speaker 1 (13:38):
And I wonder like what that because like Philip, he
was reading Isaiah, was trying to understand Philip heplic I understand,
Philip public, I understand. Yeah, oh is the ethiopinion. He
doesn't have a name. Okay, you're right, very good correction.
He could have piled him. He was reading Isaiah, he
didn't understand. Philip came up into his cherry explained it

(13:59):
to him, and then he understood. And then he was like,
there's water right there? Can I be baptized? Yeah? And
it seems in the early Church the thing you did
to quote unquote be saved or like make that decision
was be baptized in Sod the Sentaer's prayer was the
act of public actual burial with Christ and rising again.
And I wonder I think that there there would be

(14:24):
that in the verse you just quoted from First John, Yes,
would imply if those people who were with them had
been baptized and then left. And so there's that implication
there that you could be baptized, and then it can
be proved through the testing that even that wasn't correct.
But I wonder if the act of being baptized is

(14:46):
such like you have to it's kind of humiliating if
you don't really mean it, Like I wonder if there's
less room for error there as just a center prayer.

Speaker 2 (14:58):
I could be wrong because if you if you gen
only think in like your happy feelings, because I've seen
people get baptized and then wander off. I think I
think this is where like the baptism as the outward
thing you can do if you're not saved. Yeah, but
the baptism of the heart, the endwelling of the Holy Spirit, yes,
may or may not happen even if you've been baptized.

(15:19):
And that's where I think that people get hung up on. Well,
you can lose your salvation because he was baptized, which
means he was saved. And it's like, well, the baptism
is the outward sign of what's happening inside, and you
can do the sign without the interior thing.

Speaker 1 (15:29):
The interior thing. You can't lose the seal of the
Holy Spirit one hundred percent. That's all I'm wondering is
if there is if we stop thinking praying the sinner's prayer,
thinking of that as like, Okay, they're definitely saved as
opposed to baptism. I wonder if there's like less room

(15:51):
for error, like a smaller percentage of people who are
baptized as their first thing as opposed to pray, a
prayer is their first thing fall away because it's just
like that physical reality as opposed to just saying words.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Maybe I don't, I don't. I find myself disagreeing because
also you have like tons of Catholic people who are baptist.
Of course, of course they're done. It's done as babies.
Have a lot of people baptized as babies and they
don't stay in the church.

Speaker 1 (16:18):
Well that's I think that's a very different thing, because
I don't think this is all that important, but mine,
because I'm kind of going back to this idea that
we keep getting in Leviticus, that these physical realities, these
physical rituals, are meaningful, and God instituted these things to
make things real to us, and so when God instituted baptism,

(16:41):
it's to make this like physical reality and reminder of
the spiritual reality. And instead we kind of make baptism like, oh,
you know, you can. I think maybe we de emphasize
it as important and we delay it along tile like
I had been saved for years before I was allowed

(17:03):
to get baptized. Of course I was staying four, so
I can understand wanting to wait, but there was it
was certainly not an immediate thing I was even allowed
to do. And there's I just wonder if we have
made an error as a church. I think I was

(17:23):
kind of agreeing with what you said earlier about like
praying the sinner's prayer is not really the biblical necessarily
the biblical thing. It's it's repenting, it's being that it's
repenting and being baptized. Right. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Well, and the reason I I'm turning over my exact
wording the biblical precedent is like you get baptized right away,
and then the testing comes after versus the way we
try to do it now. I think we're trying to
avoid Well, all these baptized people are leaving the church.
We've tried to avoid that by okay, well then let's
test them before the baptism. And it's like, that's not
in scripture. That's not solving the issue. Right because the

(17:58):
baptism isn't It doesn't mean baptis doesn't fail.

Speaker 1 (18:00):
Because it's right exactly. I agree with you. I do
wonder if there's something about being baptized that is such
a physical reality. I think it's probably harder to go
back on being baptized, not impossible, but harder to go
back on being baptized than it is to go back
on a prayer you prayed in a like I understand

(18:22):
what you're saying. I really don't agree on that level.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
Just like because Judas, I know it's not baptism, but well,
Judas was baptized, I think, but like Judas ate the
Lord's Supper right from God's hand, and he was planning
to betray God. So like that deep spiritual reality of
like sharing in his body broken for us and he
still immediately betrayed Jesus.

Speaker 1 (18:42):
I feel like you're arguing against something I'm not saying
at all. Maybe I'm hearing you wrong. I what I
think you are.

Speaker 2 (18:47):
What I'm hearing is that like, if you've been baptized,
you're less likely to fall away? Is that what you're
saying because you've done the outword sign? And so then
just praying a prayer. So comparing these two things, Yeah,
just praying a prayer.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
To doing like going through the inconvenience and potential embarrassment
of getting up in front of a bunch like versus
praying a prayer in private with just one person, versus
saying I'm going to get up in front of the church,
I'm going to be baptized, I'm going to get wet.
All of these things. I just I think that there's

(19:23):
at a higher level.

Speaker 2 (19:24):
And I'm saying I'm not sure I would want to
see the numbers on that, because I I to me,
it could be the same, it could be slightly less. Okay, yeah,
all right, we let me be worth looking up.

Speaker 1 (19:34):
Yeah, yeah, where were so? We were? We just finished
this paragraph. We're talking about losing your salvation. Okay, Oh,
I wanted to zero in on verse twenty five or
quick not neglecting to meet together as is the habit
of some, but encouraging one another. And all the more

(19:56):
as you see the day drawing near. So that last line,
because we talked a little bit in the last episode,
because we touched on a couple of these verses before
I realized we were't gonna be able to finish Hebrews ten.
So the meeting together going to church part we already
talked about. But all the more as you see the
day drawing near near, like as as things heat up,
as things get more intense spiritually, as the day draws near,

(20:20):
as revelation gets closer, it seems like it's saying it's
even more important to be meeting together well, because you
need more encouragement to stay the course. And as the
day draws near, there's more deception arising. So if you're
just separating yourself from the church, going off your own
sort of way, you are more vulnerable to deception. Like
the wolf goes after the sheep that's kind of wandering

(20:42):
off away from the flock, versus the one that's in
the middle of the flock. You might still go after them,
but like less like the Yea perc Verse twenty six,
For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the
knowledge of the truth, there is no there no longer
remains a sacrifice for sins. So this is going let's
read this in light of that conversation about losing your salvations,

(21:04):
right there seems to be this and maybe this is
part of the testing. Then if somebody says they're saved,
gets baptized, whatever, and then continues in their sin.

Speaker 2 (21:18):
I think this ties into the discussion we had on
Hebrew six one to four, which the MacArthur Study of
Bible takes a stance. You know, this is written for
Jews who have witnessed all of this. There they're like
up to date on who Jesus is, all his miracles,
et cetera, but they haven't accepted him as savior. And
because it even uses the line of like no sacrifice
remains or something of like the idea of there's not

(21:40):
another salvation you can choose if you reject this one,
like if you hear about this and then you keep
on sinning on purpose, like purposely rejecting this, there's not
another one. It's not saying oh, you've lost your chance
at this one. It's just saying they're no longer remains
a sacrifice. Well I guess this one, Well, if you
have explicitly rejected it, yeah, you're not going to change
your mind. Although I mean that's where I think the

(22:01):
question is. Okay, this is the flip side of are
they really saved? Are they really not the person? Are
they really rejecting God? Or are they really not? Because
you have people who are like I rejected God, but
in my heart I knew it. I just was fighting it,
like Paul was kicking against the ghost, yeah, versus.

Speaker 1 (22:15):
Someone who was deliberately sinning.

Speaker 2 (22:16):
And I think for some people it's kind of hard
to tell if you're not in their heart, yeah, like
a little heart warm.

Speaker 1 (22:22):
Yeah, for if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving
knowledge of this, because it wasn't salvation, Like yeah, this
is another one where people front load things of like, oh,
having received the knowledge of the truth, that means they
accepted salvation. And it's like this doesn't say that, Yeah, no,
you're right. You're right because I agreed with you in
the chapter six discussion.

Speaker 2 (22:40):
And I think the distinction is receiving the knowledge of
the truth. Not it doesn't mean even just being told
about the truth, but it means in your heart, you know,
you see, you know, and you think you've rejected versus
like I told someone and they didn't believe me. So
I think that there's one other shade of meaning here.
Let me read both these rests together, and then, because
this is one I've struggled with too, if we go

(23:00):
on sitting deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a
fearful expectation of judgment and a fury of fire that
will consume the adversaries. Why maybe I should finish the
paragraph before anyone who has set aside the law Moses
dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses.
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved

(23:22):
by the one who is trampled underfoot the son of God,
and has profaned the blood of the Covenant by which
he was sanctified, and has outraged the spirit of grace.
For we know him who said vengeance's mind, I will repay,
and again the Lord will judge his people. It is
a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the
living God. So this is a really seems to be
a really dire warning, particularly to people who have been

(23:42):
presented with the fullness of the Gospel and have chosen
to go on sitting deliberately like they know its sin
and they continue doing it. Right, Is that how you
would read that? Yes, the one thing I'm looking up
now because there is a turn of phrase in ten
twenty nine that I just want to make sure. I mean,
I like the MacArthur study Bye explanation, but I do
want to make sure that it's the correct one, and

(24:03):
it's that line. Oh, how much worse punishment do you
think will be deserved by the one who is trampled
underfoot the son of God and has profaned the blood
of the Covenant by which he was sanctified. So is
this referring to the blood of the Covenant? Is this
the old Covenant or the new? I'm assuming the new
based on context, because this would kind of imply, Okay,

(24:23):
if you're saying you were sanctified, that would sound like
you're saying so I'm trying to see unless it is
like you have up until this point been sanctified by
the blood of the Old Covenant. But you've been presented
with Jesus and you trampled him underfoot, and now you
have outraged the spirit of grace and there's no more
there's no more realvation available to you, like you were

(24:45):
sanctified with the understanding that you would accept.

Speaker 1 (24:48):
Yeah, that's how I would read it. That's how I'm
taking it.

Speaker 2 (24:50):
I just kind of wanted to see And it seems
like MacArthur is saying the same thing of referring to
rejecting Jesus after assostating the church and his message. But yeah,
I think the idea of if you followed so long
in the law, because it does mention the law anyone
who said its sad to love Moses. And it's one
of those things where there are some individual verses who

(25:10):
really like, oh, this kind of out of context, really
does sound like it's saying you lose your salvation. But
then there's other verses that are like, no, this sounds
like you're not. So it's like everything has to be
in the context. And if one verse seems to contradict fifteen,
it's probably because we're misplacing one verse.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Yeah, I agree, Verse twenty six. So I'm kind of
reading this with the question mark here because I've we've
talked about homosexuality on the channel what God does or
does with or thinks about homosexual Christians are people who
claim to be Christian and are still living a homosexual lifestyle.

(25:46):
And there was a post that went a bit viral
this week on Twitter of basically it's just a gay
guy declaring his salvation. He was. I thought, on the
whole of it was a God honoring mostly.

Speaker 2 (26:03):
I think I saw the same one and I kind
of felt like, yes, but there was sort of.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
His like I'm underlying, ha ha, I can keep my sin.

Speaker 2 (26:10):
Well, it was like a and I'm so tired of
not being able to talk about being saved because Christians
will tell me I can't live in sin.

Speaker 1 (26:15):
And I was like, yeah, but you're not supposed to
live in sin. And Paul calls out Christians who live
in sin. So Christians are acting like good Christians when
they're like, Okay, you're saved, now follow God. Yeah, yeah, No.
I would read it the same way. And I think
that there's like a fine line where there are people
who responded who were like, hey, this is sin and
I thought that that was, like, that is the loving

(26:37):
way to approach that you have to You're not supposed
to affirm people in their sin. But then there was
kind of this attitude of like, you cannot be like this.
You aren't saved, You aren't saved because you're homosexual. You
aren't saved because you still have sin in your life,
and that I have. We all have sin in our life.

(26:59):
And I think that you could take this verse a
couple different ways. But I think the word deliberately is
really key. It's it's not if you go on sinning
after receiving the knowledge and truth, because you will, you
absolutely will go on sitting after see them, but deliberately.
And the question that's going to be between that man
and God is is he sinning deliberately?

Speaker 2 (27:22):
Because well, Leviticus talks about in some of the earlier
chapters we covered if you sin and it is made
known to you versus the deliberate sin. And I think
it's this is me just kind of guessing. So I
could be wrong if you are genuinely deceived, who are like, No,
I don't think the Bible is saying that this is wrong.
So in conscience, I believe I'm still falling God. I
don't believe I'm disobeying him. You are still sinning, right,

(27:45):
You're not deliberately being like this is wrong. God says
that it's abomination or mean or I'm doing it anyway right.
And I have a lot of grace for this because
on several different occasions throughout my life, there have been
people who have looked me in the face and told
told me I was sinning and in rebellion against God

(28:05):
for eating pork and for going to church on Sunday
instead of not working on the Sabbath or doing my
chores on Saturday the way that my parents were telling
me to do my chores like. There have been several
occasions throughout my life where I have been explicitly told
I was sinning by a Christian and then I was like,

(28:26):
I I don't want to be sinning, but I have
not been convicted by God on that, so please continue
to pray for me that I will be convicted of God.
And that person has said something to me to the
effect of, well, I told you you're sinning, so.

Speaker 1 (28:43):
Now that is your conviction. And even in a smaller way,
there was somebody very close to me and my family
who told me I was outside of God's will on
something and I was like, he didn't tell me that.
That person was like, well, he's telling you through me,

(29:03):
and was very angry with me and attempted to punish
me because he had that position of authority over me,
attempted to punish me for not obeying God through his word.
And so there's certainly these I can understand that tension
of I'm being told by a lot of people who

(29:25):
are coming across as mean, whether or not they're actually
being mean, that I'm sinning, and I'm not certain that
that's the case, and I'm not, you know, definitely not
certain enough to make this massive life change.

Speaker 2 (29:38):
For a sort of an example, my pastors preached recently
on the unforgivable sin, and I think this is more
of the repeat, but I do like how he further
explained it of the idea of the time same with
a sinning deliberately. When you are convicted by the Holy
Spirit and you reject the conviction, there's nothing left to
convict you. If you're not going to listen to the convictor,

(30:00):
there's no further means of repentance because the Holy Spirit
is the one who brings you repentance, so that the
passage where Jesus is like, blasphemy against the Son and
the Father will be forgiven, but blaspheming against the Holy
Spirit will not. Is because if you're blaspheming the Son
and the Father, the Holy Spirit still remains to convict you.
But if you reject, if you deliberately cast aside the
Holy Spirit, your only path to coming to repentance no

(30:22):
longer exists.

Speaker 1 (30:23):
I think that there's this attitude among Christians then, because
I am absolutely certain and am not remotely confused, that
homosexuality is a sin that must be equally certain for
everyone else. And it's impossible for a Christian who is
truly saved to be living in a state of undeliberate
sin in that area. Yeah, and then there's that again,

(30:47):
kicking against the godes of Like, there are people I
believe are completely saved, but I would imagine that they
are getting pretty regularly pricked by the Spirit about this issue.
And how how long can they continue doing that before
they have m rejected or blasphemed or something, if that's

(31:08):
even the case. But can you lose your salvation? Is
the other is the other thing.

Speaker 2 (31:12):
I think the idea is if if you're not going
to listen to the whole. Well, as I started a
thought and then I was like, Okay, I'm not interested
in following that thought because I was distracted by different thought.
What was the thing you had been said before you
said something that triggered a thought in my head.

Speaker 1 (31:26):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (31:28):
Oh oh, the idea of well if I know better
than the surely they know better. And I've seen from
from like firsthand experience. I have a friend. I'm not
super duper in contact with her as much anymore. We
just kind of grew apart. But she kind of went
through a period of, you know, deconstruction, which is always
a bad sign. But she had all these like people

(31:48):
telling her, oh, well, this verse.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
You know, a man shouldn't lie with another man. It
actually is just talking about table prostitution. That's the issue, and.

Speaker 2 (31:56):
All these so it was like people twisting the scripture
when I think a lot of that falls back on them,
where she was like, oh, I guess the Bible isn't
even saying this is wrong. This is just everyone is misguided,
and and so I can see how like if you
especially if you it just a gray area of like
if you want it to not be a sin, so
you're looking for reasons for it to not because you know,
the hardest dice, evil and desperately wicked. But I think

(32:18):
that all that goes to say someone might genuinely think, oh,
we've misunderstood the Bible. There's this freedom here of like, oh,
well now and now I believe Hell isn't real, or
now I believe.

Speaker 1 (32:27):
X y Z thing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, And the Bible
seems to indicate that there's a higher level of responsibility
and punishment placed on the person who did the misleading, yes, yeah,
then on the person who was misled. And this is
all forgot to sort out. But I also wonder if

(32:47):
if ultimately the punishment is not oh you were a
homosexual Christian Here, I'm sticking with this example as opposed
to there's plenty of other sins, alcoholism, whatever, whatever, like
besetting sin. Actually, maybe I should do alcoholism because I
think that there. I think that it is honestly on

(33:08):
a similar level too. I don't know if you remember,
but there was there was a there was a guy
in our in the Mattias Valley church growing up that
he was a sweet guy ultimately died of an overdose,
and it was really shocking because everyone thought he had
gotten free. I no longer remember who were talking, Oh no,

(33:32):
gotten free of his drug use. I think you maybe
were too young to know. And he had seemed like
he was like set free of his drug addiction, and
and he relapsed one time and died, and it was
it was really really sad and it but it was
one of those like he had moving back from that

(33:57):
one example just to like alcoholism, addiction in general, or homosexuality,
which I kind of I would really put in the
same category a Christian who continues to struggle with that
their whole life. I think it's one of those sad
things where it's like, if you believed that, you I

(34:21):
don't question your salvation, but you could have been saved
from that sin in this life.

Speaker 2 (34:28):
Yeah, in the arty not there yet of the Kingdom
of God, like you could have inherited the.

Speaker 1 (34:32):
Could have been free of it. You could have had
a better life for a homosexual God. You could have
had a wife and a family, you could have had
all that beauty that God has for us. But because
you didn't admit it was a sin, or couldn't see
your way to get free of it, didn't believe in
the power of God to get you out of it,
because I think that's what it ultimately comes down to

(34:55):
for homosexuality especially, and I see this error on both sides,
whether it's the liberal churches going we don't believe in
the power of God to free people from homosexuality. Therefore
God is bad if he requires people to be like,
why did he make me born this way? If He's
not going to free me right because he doesn't. He's
like the underlying belief is he's not strong enough. And
then the flip side of these like really evil legalistic

(35:19):
Christians who are saying if you are a homosexual you
can't be saved like you also don't seem to believe
in the power of God to say to save from that.
So both sides of that seem to believe that this
is something that is so severe that God is incapable
of saving from it. And I think that like in
an individual person's life, if you believe, you're believing in

(35:41):
God to save you from hell, but you don't think
that God can save you from this sin and your
temporal life, so you don't allow him to do it
and work on it and take it from you. I
think that you live with the temporal consequences of continuing
to be in that destructive sin, because ultimately all sin
is hurting us another side angle.

Speaker 2 (35:59):
It's not necessarily a pushback, it's not necessarily agreement.

Speaker 1 (36:02):
I'm I'm going to see where it lands. I'm talking
about it. I forget where it is.

Speaker 2 (36:06):
But there's that passage of like the revilers, the alcoholics,
the homosexuals, of which you were one of these or whatever,
but you have been washed. There is a distinction made
of like there's a difference between you're a sinner, your identities.
You're a sinner, you're not saved, and yeah, you are
someone who's been freed from that sin, who may fall

(36:27):
into it from time to time, who will be fighting it.
And I would argue if you I'm kind of I'm
kind of swinging back pendulum wise, if you are living
in this open like one of the sins that's named
in that thing, you're kind of maybe like an outside
looking in fan person of God who's like, I really
like God and I really would like to be close

(36:48):
to God. But there's that level of but if you
want to follow God, then you give this up. And
I'm not trying to say give this up before you
follow God, but like it's the same thing that happens
at the same time of like pick up across and
follow me. And I'm just grateful that I don't have
to parse that.

Speaker 1 (37:04):
In my own life.

Speaker 2 (37:05):
Yeah, but I think that there is also just just
going back to your point of missing out on things
if you're living in you know, this habitual sin, and
especially if people are trying to point out that the
bubbles you can't there is at least a closeness to
God that you won't be able to achieve in your
life of Yeah, because because sin separates this from from God.

Speaker 1 (37:29):
So I don't know, I don't I don't know. I
agree with you because because I think that there's and
this is always going to be between the person and God.
You shall know them by their fruit, and if their
fruit is they never change. There's never a fruit of righteousness.
And this is why I have more more confidence in
certain people that I see. I'm thinking of one in particular,

(37:51):
Prize probably already know who it is because I think
I've said his name. I'm not going to keep saying
his name every time we talk about this. But oh,
I feel like I see in him so much fruit
of righteousness, but this sin is still in his life.
As opposed to someone who perhaps they're still in that
sin and you don't see any other fruit of righteousness.

(38:13):
It's harder to parse out. And I think it's between
them and God. And maybe I'm wrong about the person
I'm thinking of. And it's like part of that testing
of like, if you're never giving up your dearly held sins,
then you go your whole you know, Christian quote unquote
Christian life without ever actually repenting and turning from your sin.

(38:37):
Is that part of the testing that's revealing that there
was never salvation there?

Speaker 2 (38:41):
That is a good question. I'm trying to find a
verse because I want the context to see exactly what
the Bible is saying. First Corinthians six eight. Instead, you
yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this starty
in nine? Or do you not know that wrongdoers will
not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived,
neither the sexually immoral, nor adulters, nor adulter, nor men
who have sex with men, nor thieves, neither greedy, nor drunkards,

(39:03):
nor slenders or swindlers won't hear the Kingdom of God.
And that is what some of you were. But you
were washed, you were sanctified. You were justified in the
name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the spirit
of our God. So one thing is like, we don't
stop sinning after we're saved, but we are justified as
if we have not sinned. We are washed, we're sanctified,
So we're no longer even though we struggle with the
sin God. Like let's say I really struggle with being greedy.

(39:25):
I'm just very greedy, and that was my big sin,
my besetting sin before salvation. I'm no longer seen as that.
I'm seen as washed and sanctified, but I still have
this sin that I will have to be sanctified from.
Like there's a process of like you're saved and then
the sectification process begins, and I think the thing that
we that maybe set to depart is Okay, do I

(39:46):
see this person being sanctified, including from this big sin,
Because I think there are some sins that the Bible
is really clear about, and there can you can be
deceived for a while about it, but if you go
your entire life of this very Bible clearly condemns this thing,
and you're not able to see.

Speaker 1 (40:00):
Yeah, but if you know God, then you know what
he hates. Yeah. Yeah, that's something that just like it
confuses me and a lot of my instincts is to
leave it between God and that person.

Speaker 2 (40:14):
But like one one stepping outside of those big examples,
I was trying, I was trying to find a specific
thing mentioned because I know the Bible will talk about
revilers like and that translates to verbally abusive people. And
I don't know if it explicitly says we'll not in
here the Kingdom of God, but it's one of those
things where it's it's listed in one of these lists
I think of, along with sexually moral dolterars during drinkers whatever. Right,

(40:37):
and you have a lot of you have respectable sins,
and why that, I mean you have sins that don't
get called out as much in church where it's like, oh,
don't be gay, but we're not going to say anything
about so and so who verbally abuses his wife, Right,
And I think it's the same thing of like if
if you have an issue with being verbally abusive and
there's no growth, there's no progress, there's no conviction from God,

(41:00):
and you go your whole life acting like that.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
It is a vold question to be like, was the
Holy Spirit at work?

Speaker 2 (41:05):
Yeah, but I don't know because we are still going
to be filthy around sinners.

Speaker 3 (41:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:10):
And then there's that like you got into heaven by
the skin of your teeth, like you were just barely saved,
but there was like basically no fruit, yeah, like it
was the lowest in heaven, right, And so there's some
room for that. Ultimately, I think it's all between yeah,
you know, person and God. But these are really interesting
questions to talk about. I'm not going to stand at
the throne of God and be like, yeah, so Benny's right,

(41:32):
You're going to be very much focused on Oh wow,
that was all the sin that I didn't deal with
in my lifetime, and I didn't, you know, I didn't
ultimately let God take from me. So it was a
sin to sit in the shower pretend I'm a sloth
on it, right, ned, and my pastors said it was
really weird but not a sin. Yeah, But like, yeah,
I think there's a lot of respectable sins, outbursts of anger, gossip,

(41:59):
things like big one that some of us are like,
anger is something I've been I've been becoming more aware
of in my own life of like probably doing that
on a weekly basis. If I am having an outburst
of anger, a sinful outburst of anger once a week,
am I very different? What's the schedule of how often

(42:20):
I can? Yeah, that's a regular sin, right, Like that's
that's a habitual living in sin. Right And I can think, oh, well,
I just every time I did it, it was an
accident every time I But am I any different than
somebody who has Gay's X one?

Speaker 2 (42:33):
So this is this is the question that we'll answer
that when you do it every time, are you like, okay,
that was genuinely wrong, Lord, please forgive me? Or are
you like it's okay that I do that because that
God doesn't condemn that. I think that is the dividing
line of sure, because you can live in sin and
struggle in sin, and the idea is it doesn't matter.
It's it's not that you're sitting. It's the problem. It's

(42:56):
do you hate sin like God hates sin? Because if
you hate sin like God's hates it. That's the clear
sign that you're dwelt by the Holy Spirit, that you
are following God, that you're like Paul, who's like why
do I do the things I don't want to do?
Versus I actually don't hate the sin. I kind of
love this sin. This is what I'm going to keep
and I'm not going.

Speaker 1 (43:09):
To surrender to God. Well, like I'm to answer your question, like,
I'm thirty. I've been saved since i was four, and
it's only like in the past year where I've been like, oh,
I think I'm like sinning in my anger.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Yeah, And it does take a while for conviction for
certain things because God deals with one thing at a time.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
I think if you're convicted of us of everything we
couldn't handle, which I think, then that kind of brings
me back to like I think that there are God
kind of works on things in a certain order of
like if there's an order of which sins are going
to be easiest for her to give up first, and
like work on those like that kind of ramp up.

(43:47):
So if homosexuality is going to be your absolutely most
difficult thing to give up, does it then follow that
God works on it with you? Last and for me anger,
I don't. I want to think anger is like my
last holdout and I don't have any other sins beyond
that bespell probably not true, but like right now, anger

(44:09):
is my besetting. Wow, I've been doing this for a
long time and sinning in it for a long time,
and I only just noticed, and God only just started
working on it with me twenty six years after I
got saved. So surely I can have some grace for
somebody who's living in another sin who hasn't been convicted
of a y, yeah, the other. That's all I'm sitting

(44:32):
here like, No, I really want to condemn posentualst and
just let me have this thing as a tree.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
No.

Speaker 1 (44:35):
I think it's good that there's a devile's advocate position
in this conversation. I think, well, first of all, the
devil hasn't aough advocant. But sorry, it's not the thing.
I think. Part of the reason it's like a it's
like a loop that feeds itself.

Speaker 2 (44:48):
Part of the reason why homosexuality is such a big
called out sin, it's because it's a big called out sin,
so we don't spend as much time calling on anger.
So it's a little bit less like, of course you
didn't realize it was a sin because it's not constantly
brought your tension. But if something is constantly brought to
your attension, you really don't have an excuse because everyone
knows it's a sin.

Speaker 1 (45:06):
But that's going back to the thing. Sure, and and
then I always come back to the starting point of
you know, but for the risk of God, there go.
I I'm glad that I'm not personally having to wrestle
for this where it matters on my personal life, because
then you could this is probably if you're constantly getting
called out by it by people who seem legalistic and

(45:27):
mean and not a lot of fruit in their own lives,
then it's almost like you dig in with your denial
that those people are right, and the voice of the
Holy spirits may be getting drowned out by all these
mean people. Whereas with anger, there's tons of verses about
it that apparently I've been ignoring. So if the argument

(45:49):
is if you love God, you're gonna hate what he hates.
But I didn't notice, I was like, maybe I hate it,
but I didn't notice I was doing. But like, then
you could argue, but you can't it's you can't like
not notice that you're having having gay sex. Like you,
that's not something you can like accidentally, I think, like

(46:13):
an example, accidentally not noticed that you were mean when
you were angry.

Speaker 2 (46:18):
Yeah, Like, well, because people can be so focus on themselves,
they don't even realize what they're doing to other people.
But like, for example, if I if my pastor only
precies about sloth like every it's like he's just he's
got this thing about yeah.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
That's not the animal.

Speaker 2 (46:31):
Unfortunately, so like every single sermon, he's like, being lazy's wrong.
And these are the verses why lazy's wrong. And this
is why at the end of the day, like having
on there, let's say three years, I should really have
no excuse for being lazy, but I might not be
aware of any other.

Speaker 1 (46:46):
Sins that are a problem.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
That's a good point because he hasn't And I think
this is where pastors really fail of there are certain
sins that we call out and others that we don't like.
And I think one of one of our churches that
we've gone to in the past, he made a really
good point where he was like, it is it is
up for the pastor to he has to play to
the lowest common denominator in terms of there are going
to be Christians who don't read their Bible outside of church,

(47:07):
so he is responsible for equipping them with all the
stuff that the Bible says and not skipping things. Yeah,
don't be gay, and don't be a reviler and don't
be a drunkard. Yeah, and just don't be Also there's.

Speaker 1 (47:23):
Sorry, this is so fascinating, Like there's a ton of
churches who go out of their way to deceive their
congregation that homosexuality is okay, yes, and then it's not
a sin. And so there's like really complex arguments out
there for why homosexuality is okay, that somebody can be
deceived and fall. Whereas even though it is true that

(47:46):
churches are terrible at calling out gossip and sloth and
gluttony and anger and sinful fear like lack of faith
and driving slow in the fast lane. Sorry, yes, but
they're also not like going out of their way to
build these like massive arguments for why they're okay. Yeah,

(48:09):
although more and more joy I am seeing, at least
in the Joel Webin craft, like your hatred is righteous,
So I mean it does exist. But yeah, that is
an interesting and again we fall back on like God
makes it really clear that that the people who are
doing the misleading, the spiritual leaders who are misleading people
into into sin, are going to be held to a

(48:31):
really high account.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
It's like Satan, who you know, did God really say?
And he doesn't really get a chance at redemption from that?

Speaker 1 (48:40):
We do? Yeah, okay, let's see, let's see. It is
a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the
living God. Yes, yeah, any I mean anytime you're being
told something as a sin, you sit there and be

(49:00):
like do like instead of meeting the human thing. Yes,
Because whenever I was accused of eating pork, I would
go to God and go are we good? Like is
it a sin? Please tell me if it's a sin.

Speaker 2 (49:17):
If it's a sin, please convict me, and then be
actually listening for that conviction.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Right right, respond, And there was there was a lot.
There was several different points in my life where I
was like, m just checking and do.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
I need to stop because I'm willing and don't confuse
fear of punishment for conviction.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
And I say this really carefully because.

Speaker 2 (49:38):
Like people can go off of oh well, someone said
this awful thing's gonna happen if you do this, and
it's like, well, what the awful thing has happened to me?
And it's like, well, yeah, it's God saying that or
was that a human saying that?

Speaker 1 (49:46):
Well, because it was also suggested to me, I think
we'll maybe live on this show years ago. Who who
suggested that, like, maybe you should just in case, like
had your bets, wouldn't you want just a case that.
I'm like, no, I don't think that that is biblical

(50:06):
to just in case fall into legalism, just in case,
go back to trusting in the law from my salvation.

Speaker 2 (50:13):
Like yeah, I think God will save me, but just
in case, I should I should go back to the
law that yes, not to And I think that's what
people were doing, was the just in case thing. And
and fear is not conviction. Conviction is conviction, and there
is fear of the Lord. And it's I think this
is why we don't go off of I'm experiencing a
height of emotion. It's I pray about this. I go
to God for as well. Do I have this like

(50:35):
steady voice of like yep, this is wrong, this is
you to stop doing this?

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Yeah, which with no, I'm just gonna move on, like
beating this dead horse, so dead. But recall the former days,
when after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle
with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed for approach and affliction,

(50:59):
and some times being partners with those so treated, for
you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully
accept the plundering of your property since you knew that
you yourselves had a better position and an abiding one. Therefore,
do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward,
for you have need of endurance, so that when you
have done the will of God, you may receive what
is promised.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
This does seem to imply he's talking to actual Christians here,
although you know, it could all tie back to you know, they.

Speaker 1 (51:26):
Follow the law.

Speaker 2 (51:27):
They Yeah, there's also when you receive the word of God,
there is instant or there's usually instant pushback from the
devil trying to snatch the seat up before a complant.

Speaker 1 (51:37):
Right, And there does seem to be like kind of
a bit of a warning in here, and it doesn't
have to be about losing your salvation, but kind of
this like make sure that when your faith is tested.
You don't let go, yeah, you know, don't throw away
your confidence. If you do, you're not going to get
what's promised. And I think that that's that goes to
like an anti Calvinist position of like you do choose

(51:59):
your salvation and you choose whether you will you know.

Speaker 2 (52:02):
And I think maybe that or not we're trying to
get like a there is a distinct moment when you're
saved and after that you yeah, I try to get
like there's a because the parable, you know, the seed
does start growing. So it's like the process of salvation
starts and there's a period where you can back out
of it. But it's true, it's hard because I don't

(52:26):
think that you can accident I don't think you can
accidentally lose your salvation. I do suspect maybe you can
walk away from it. And I think maybe that's where
like it is a little squishy.

Speaker 1 (52:35):
Of like you you started on the path, if you
kept going, you would have been saved, right, but you
abandon your salvation and so you didn't write but well,
because that's a trick. And again in the parable the Sower,
one of the instances is that wheat is sown among tears,
and so it struck out, it's choked out and doesn't
produce a lot of fruit, and it will get divided

(52:56):
out in in the in the harvest. However, it still
seems to indicate that, like there is something good to
divide out from something bad there, even though it was
choked out and didn't bear fruit. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (53:09):
The reason why I am pausing on this one too, though,
is if you're going to say that this is the
audience that is not saved, that they've seen all these
things have come to this point, this paragraph doesn't seem
to be talking to an audience like that. It seems
to be talking to an audience who has accepted salvation.
So this is when I think I just want to
do some more research on And.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
It's possible it's a bit of both. He has a
bit of a mixed audience and he's saying all all
the truth that it's not incorrect if it's to one
or the other, because ultimately everyone is reading it and
no matter what place they're in, because obviously this has
gone out to what much more than his original audience.
So yeah, so like part of the and part of

(53:48):
I was gonna say, part of the audience is hearing
it and it's going, oh, I need to accept the
salvation and not reject it. And part of the audience
is I need to give up, not give up hope.
Having accepted the salvation and not rejected it, I now
need to hold fast. And he's talking to the audience
of like, you'll know what's for.

Speaker 3 (54:04):
You, right.

Speaker 1 (54:05):
And I also wonder if, like, there are different people
for whom focusing on a different aspect is important. So
I like our dad would talk about how there was
a period of life he was so terribly afraid of
losing his salvation that he got super legalistic and anxious
and all that. And for him, it was very important
that he believed that he could never lose his salvation. Yeah,

(54:26):
he was scared of doing that. But for someone who's like, oh,
my loved one prayed the prayer and even though there's
absolutely no fruit in his life and he says he
doesn't follow God and all this stuff, I don't have
to keep preaching to him because he already prayed the prayer. Yeah,
so that person should probably believe that you can lose

(54:47):
your salvation if you're defining salvation by praying prayer and
I think I think maybe Christians have done as Sis
a disservice by creating this distinction of like the salvation
as an entity versus like, you receive the gospel. Is
the gospel growing root in you or not? Yeah, because
there's not, no there is.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
I was gonna say, So there's the there's the seed
that grows about three inches because the Palestinian soil was
about three inches deep, and then there was bed rock
and so they could get the soil is nice and
warm to grow, but then when it got hot, it
would shrivel. So there's the ones of like the gospel
starts to take root, but then it goes away. And
then there's ones where the gospel takes root but it

(55:28):
gets choked out. And then there's ones where the gospel
takes root and it's transformative. And it's like there's a
process of and maybe salvation doesn't happen at the point
where you receive the gospel. It happens when the gospel
like actually grows deep in I feel like the war
I'm talking the warm making it confusing.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Right, because like what is the bedrock? Is that a
hard heart? Like, Oh, you accepted the gospel and it
sprouted in your emotion, but it reached your heart and
it couldn't go any farther in it. That is a
good point.

Speaker 2 (55:56):
And I also think and easy I have to, and
this is something that reassures me. If you are afraid
that you're going to commit or afraid that you have
or are going to commit the unforgivable sin, or if
you're afraid that you're going to lose your salvation, you're
not in danger of that because the fact that you're
afraid me is that you care people who if you
can lose your salvation. The people who lose their salvations
are one ones who don't want it anymore. You can't

(56:19):
accidentally oh no, I yelled at that person, and now
God doesn't want me anymore. It's like a well, actually,
never mind I.

Speaker 1 (56:27):
Because then you're trusting your works for your salvation exactly.
You can't, and that's when you lose. I'm just kidding,
but I can. I can definitely think of it, and
you're going to know who I'm talking about. I can
definitely think of an example of somebody who I do
think that they are saved because I think that there
was a period of their life where the gospel rooted
and had a transformative effect to a point, and then

(56:50):
it got choked out and then they're stopped being fruit
and there stopped being growth. But that plant is there.
The plant's not gone. They didn't like completely revert to
the life of before. Yes, but for the last twenty
years or so, I would say that that person has

(57:12):
not grown in their faith and probably will not.

Speaker 2 (57:14):
And here's another interesting thing, because I all want to
push back on one of my earlier statements.

Speaker 1 (57:19):
I disagree with myself.

Speaker 2 (57:20):
I would like to pick a fight with myself because
I do want to be careful that I'm not giving
you an easy metric where you can be misled. I
do think you can be afraid to lose your salvation
and not have been saved in the first place. And
the reason I say that is this is one of
the problems of how we share the Gospel in modern
day of accept God so that you won't go to hell.

(57:43):
And yeah, if you believe God, you won't go to hell. However,
that's not the point of being saved. The point of
being saved is to be with God, not to escape
punishment for your sin. It's not like you're taking this
credit card on which you can get pasted on your sin.
So if you're the kind of person who is afraid
I don't want to lose this relationship with God. I
don't want to lose God. I don't want God to
turn his back on me. Yeah, then I wouldn't be afraid.

(58:04):
But if you're the kind of person who's like, oh,
I'm just constantly afraid of Hell all the time, that's
an indication to me. If you are always afraid of Hell,
to me, that's an indication that you're not saved.

Speaker 1 (58:13):
That's a good point. It's a good point because you
could have this kind of back and forth with God
where you're like, I don't want to go to hellp
please tell me I'm not going to Hell, and God's like,
so you want to be with me? I don't want
You're like you're like, no, I want my sin. I
just don't want to go to Hell, and God's like,
there's no two options. There's hell or being with me.

(58:36):
If you don't want to be with me, hell's the
other option. And I think there are people who think
they don't want Hell but definitely don't want God. And
that's the thing that trumps it. Where God's like, yeah,
you're not going to be with me if you don't
want to, because hell's the only other place.

Speaker 2 (58:51):
Because I do know someone who you can never reassure
them that they're saved, even when they confess with their
mouth and they say to believe in their heart, they
are always afraid to the point where they have dreams
where they're in hell with these people, where they know
they're in hell. And it's like, I don't I could
be wrong, but I don't think if you're saved, you're
gonna get these tormenting dreams. I think that's potentially God

(59:12):
warning you, this is the direction you're going. Yeah, follow me,
and you're stuck at that point of I want to
get out of this? How do I get out of
this without following you?

Speaker 1 (59:21):
I know I have never once in my life been
afraid I was gonna lose my salvation. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (59:26):
The times that I have been afraid is more of like,
have I made God stop loving me? But then I
But part of it's because I'm like, I know I'm
misreading something and like I'm worried. But then I remind myself,
if it were up to me to keep my salvation,
I would never have gotten saved in the first place,
because you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 (59:47):
Exactly exactly. Okay, let's see what you do for thirty six.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you
have done the will of God, you may receive what
is promised. For yet a little while, and the coming
one will come and not delay. But my righteousness, my
righteous one, shall live by faith. And if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him. Okay, let everyth

(01:00:08):
that again. First of all, this is a this is
from Isaiah. No, actually appears to be. There's a couple
different cross offenses here, but the actual conferences seems to
be haguy two six, Yet a little while, and the
coming one will come and will not delay. But my

(01:00:29):
righteous one shall live by faith, And if he shrinks back,
my soul has no pleasure in him.

Speaker 2 (01:00:34):
I think if we're going to do a real world example,
I think that's what we're saying with Jordan Peterson, where
he's gotten to that point of I believe Jesus is
the son of God like etcetera, but he's a shame
for the gospel. Also, to clarify previously, the person I'm
referring to is not worried that the loser salvation. They're
worried that they're not saved in the first place. That

(01:00:54):
is a slight distinction it's wanting to make of like
if you're never confident in your salvation to begain with
But anyway, say.

Speaker 1 (01:00:59):
Yeah, Verstyna, but we are not of those who shrink
back and are destroyed, but of those who have faith
and preserve their souls.

Speaker 2 (01:01:06):
I do think this is where I do go back to,
maybe you can lose your salvation of the it's characterized
as a race. If you stop running, you're not in
the race anymore, right, you can slow down to a
crawl and you're still moving. Yeah, But if you drop
out of the race and you're not in the race, like,

(01:01:27):
I don't think you can be saved and not follow God.
So the question is, if you are truly saved, are
you even capable of no longer following God? But if
you if you turn back and are no longer following God,
I don't think you're Like it's a tricky one, yeah,
And I think the way to make it like it's
not even an issue you have to think about is
if you want to be with God, then follow God.

(01:01:47):
Just keep following God. And I think that's what the
Bible keep saying, you know, work out your salvation once.
If you're in troubling, maybe you can, you can't. Let's
not find out. Let's keep following God. Let's not shrink
back into our sin. Let's not be afraid.

Speaker 1 (01:01:56):
Let's not fall back into our old ways. Let's always
press on towards the prize and be calling it because
it is like a it's not a well I'm saved
now I'm good and I can just sit there. It's
a an actively, you know, movement towards God. I don't know, probably,
And I think that there are like this is something

(01:02:17):
we're having, never like going back to the most actual
thing really cool. Yeah. I think there's this assumption in
those of us who like haven't actually lived that life,
that it's a unique sin that you like and it
would be so hard and awful to give up and

(01:02:37):
get rid of, as opposed to it being the same
as every other sin that like every day is hurting
you and you're like, I would give anything to be
rid of this. I just don't know how well. I
think that there are people who are like that, and
then there are people who are like, but I like
this sin, I want it right, And then is I
want my cake and I want to eat it too.

(01:02:59):
But like even if alcoholic, like they like it and
they want it, but they hate it at the same time,
and I like, but they don't hate it enough. They
don't hate it enough. But I'm pushing back on my
own kind of feeling, like, hm, I think that there's
this idea in a lot of Christians that like, there

(01:03:22):
wouldn't be joy in a homosexual he was relieved of it,
like that he likes it so much that he, oh,
he wouldn't feel so much relief and maybe a belief
even in But I think that like if you if
with any sin, with even your most besetting favorite sin,

(01:03:45):
if Jesus sat you down and said I can take
this from you, like I can. M I think everybody
wants their sin gone ultimately.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
So I'm going to compare this to hoarding. And I
don't know if this is a good comparison or not.
So I've watched a lot of horders, yeah, and I've
read a lot on hoarding.

Speaker 1 (01:04:02):
No, I think is I like where you're going? Okay,
So there are some people who they are aware of
just how miserable their life is. They're probably not aware
of all the thought potter instead of getting them stuck there,
but they're like, this can't stay. I need help.

Speaker 2 (01:04:15):
Yeah, And then the actual process of going through the
help is really difficult for them because they you know,
and they fight it. There's a reality, yeah, and some
fight it less than others.

Speaker 1 (01:04:23):
But there are many I don't know how many.

Speaker 2 (01:04:26):
I might not even be fifty percent, but there is
a good number who, once given that help, do not
go back to it. They you know, they may struggle,
but they want to get out. And then there are
those who they don't even want help. The help is
being forced on them. They love their hoard. It is
their identity, and if you help them, they will resent you.

Speaker 1 (01:04:42):
And as soon as they can, they're going to go
back to hoarding because that is who they've decided they are,
and they would rather live in their human waste and filth.
There's like a level of which they have literally there's
no hope for them. Yeah, And I get I get.
I like, so there's that flip side of So there's

(01:05:03):
who were over time and we only did half a
chapter and I want to like make sure, we completely.
We didn't even get to levitic because yeah, this time conversation,
yeah we were James, we were like in a bunch
of different places. So I don't feel like, oh no,
we only did two verses. So there's there's the can
you lose your salvation? But there's also a is there

(01:05:24):
a permanence to the rejection? Is there is there a
point you can get to in the rejection of God
that you can't come back from. And I do wonder
if that's it, that there is a point where your
heart is so darkened that there you have rejected an
awareness of your sin. You've decided I am a hoarder.

(01:05:45):
I love being a hoarder. I never want to stop
being a hoarder. You can come in here and you
could try so hard to help me, and I will fight, yeah,
every inch of it.

Speaker 2 (01:05:56):
It's not just that they're unwilling to face their difficulties,
is that they are actively rejecting a non hoarding life,
that that existence is hateful to them. And there's also
the families of like, Okay, you can have your hoard
or you can have your family. Because a lot of
hoarding leads to divorces and broken families, and then they
have this point of like, I love this horde, I
love this person.

Speaker 1 (01:06:16):
Who do I choose?

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
And some people choose the person and some people choose
the hord. And that's the defining moment, I think, because
if you've rejected your entire family for your hord, your
family can't pull you out of it because the thing
that could have pulled you out of it you have rejected.

Speaker 1 (01:06:30):
There's no more salvation left place. It's so fascinating. I
think that every person, in their heart of hearts before
God knows where they are at. Yeah. I don't think
anyone's confused. Even when I wasn't actively thinking about my anger.
If if in the moment somebody had said to me, Abby,
that was way over the line, I would have been

(01:06:51):
like yeah, right, yeah, Because it's like, if you were
going to do the comparison of like, abbe, would you
like to give up being angry?

Speaker 3 (01:06:59):
Right?

Speaker 1 (01:06:59):
Would you like to keep me?

Speaker 3 (01:07:01):
Like?

Speaker 1 (01:07:01):
Definitely, I'd like to give up being angry.

Speaker 2 (01:07:03):
Can help me give it up versus like, no, I'm
good with the anger, so you couldn't get lost, is
I am?

Speaker 1 (01:07:09):
Exactly? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (01:07:11):
Because there's there there was one moment in horrors. I
was like listening to it while I was working on
the list of my books, and the lady is like,
my hord's always there for you. For me, You're not
always there, and she's the daughter is like, I can't
keep helping you. It's it's me or the heart. She's like, well,
it's a hord then, and she just she said it
that casually and like watch her daughter leave in tears
and she just like keeps defending, like she's not always

(01:07:32):
there for me. My horde is and it's like you yeah, oh,
and she was like I was like, this is a
mom attacking her kids. She's like I was, I got
along fine before I met you. We got along fine
after that, Like yeah, she literally said that, and she
said it differently, but got along fine before I met you.

Speaker 1 (01:07:45):
Yeah, And I mean I've had a moment like this
with somebody we've referenced on here where I said, you know,
we can we can have a close relationship again, or
a baseball statistic level relationship. Yeah. And he sat there
and he cried and he chose baseball, and I'm like,
that's okay. That was a choice. Yeah, yeah, that was
a choice. And I don't necessarily think that. I continue

(01:08:07):
to wonder if, because this is the same person I
was mentioning, if like, I think that I believe he
was safe, but I think he reached a point in
his forties or so where he stopped growing in his faith,
he stopped making any changes. He started to make those
choices of like, this is it, this is where I am.
I'm not an inch. Further, I have given I think

(01:08:29):
I do wonder if there's people who are like I
have given up this sin and I've given up this
sin and not one more inch God, And I don't
know what God does with that.

Speaker 2 (01:08:37):
And I think because part of that is a telling
you of sin versus like I have been freed from
the sin, and I've been freed from the sin. And
I struggle with I've given you, I've surrendered this thing
I loved, and I've surrendered this thing I loved.

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
Why aren't you happy with me?

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
God?

Speaker 1 (01:08:49):
Versus like, Yeah, I want to go with the process
of sectification, where we're going to get rid of everything
one at a time. Yeah, and everything I give up
I celebrate versus I. You know, that's another thing I
have to fondly look back on my alcoholism days. This
person wasn't alcoholic, but yeah, right, It's it's confusing because
it's like, is that evidence that they're not saved? I
don't know, Like that's honestly, if I get to heaven

(01:09:10):
and this person is there, I'm not going to be surprised.
And if I get to heaven he's not there, I'm
not going to be surprised either way, not surprised.

Speaker 2 (01:09:15):
Like I was speaking to one person who has an
alcohol issue and I was like, multiple times sold this person,
you know, you are not a pleasant person when you're drinking.
And when it came up to like maybe I need
to give up drinking, he's like, maybe I'll have to
give up, you know, my fun self. And it was like, yeah,
I have told you repeatedly that you're not your fun self,
but you cannot just escape this feeling. And I think

(01:09:36):
that's the same with like sin is fun when you're
in it, and I think for those who are saved,
there is still the moment where you are having fun
in this in otherwise you wouldn't sin, right, but you
feel the sourness too. But if you're never feeling the sourness,
you're not responding to conviction. Yeah, I like the horror metaphor.
I feel like that just it's a really good way. Yeah,

(01:09:58):
you've come up with some really good amount of course today.

Speaker 1 (01:10:00):
Thank you. Okay, So I don't know why I'm feeling
bad that we didn't do more scripture in the last
two sections that we did, but okay, suck on some
really good passages with important things to talk about in them.

Speaker 2 (01:10:14):
It depends on your metric. If your metric is making
fast progress, we suck. Our metric is as we are
doing this thing, we are going to really sit and
we're going to wrestle with the issues until we feel
like we can't wrestle with them anymore.

Speaker 1 (01:10:24):
Then we are not sarcastic. Ye're doing well. Yeah, no,
I think I think so choose your writer. No, I
think you're right. Like we've definitely If the metric of
success in this Bible study is how many difficult questions
can we wrestle with in one episode, we certainly succeeded
in the last two episodes. And if we are not
succeeding at our set metric of success, we're going to

(01:10:45):
choose a new one so that we're still successful. Just
change the terminology or whatever. Can I not say you
do it all right? Thank you for being with us,
as always, leave a comment chat in the live chat.
Would love to hear where you're standing on this stuff.
If I'm not a lot of times lately with the time,
I haven't been able to be in the live chat,
if you reach out, if you have a thought that

(01:11:06):
you want to make sure I engage with at me
on Discord, send me a DM on Instagram, send me
a DM on Twitter. Wherever you're able to reach me.
Please please do, because I really do want to talk
to you, and my lack of being in the live
chat has nothing to do with that and everything to
do with like I want to survive and be able
to sleep, and also that you guys kind of smell bad.
We've been meaning to bring it up, like a hord

(01:11:27):
Or situation sort of smell good night. Did you go

(01:12:01):
to the b