The Exorcism Question, Part One

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hello, and welcome to Alternatively Season one, episode eighteen. But
I definitely hadn't didn't have to cheat too, because you
didn't see that happened. So this is Liz's the Exorcism
Question Part one kind of exercise Abbey live on stream today.
Oh yes, that's new information. John, get the handcuffs. I

(01:15):
like Liza and I were taking pick by this image
that we picked for the thumbnail. I pulled it up
as a joke. I found it in like bank of
free images that I had to work with, and Liza
was like, this is we're easy we are using because
I was looking on like unsplashed and other places for
something that would be of the right vibe and there
was all just like really scary, demonic. I would like

(01:38):
to keep it not intentionally frightening. Yeah. Yeah, So this
is continuation of Liz's kind of spooky season series where
she's been Yeah, she's been taking over doing a lot
of the research lately, which is kind of in a
weird transitional period. So some updates on that and notes
on that. So John did into the National Guard last week.

(02:03):
He got his date for basic It is not going
to be until January, which we were really thinking it
was going to be at the end of this month
or beginning of next month, so that gives us some reprieve.
So our plan had been to take a little break
during his basic and then get into a new schedule
and figure out what new schedule worked for us. So

(02:23):
while I am grateful for the reprieve that he gets
to have the holidays with us and all this stuff,
now I'm like, oh, so we're not going to take
a break from the show, and we have to figure
out new schedule and what works now instead of later.
So please bear with us. Please thank you for bearing
with us a barrel us, Please continue to bear with us.

(02:49):
God the elephant in the room, but it's the bear
with us. Have you seen that meme where it's like,
how would you communicate that there's a bear in the
room with you without saying? And it's like, and now
I had to say, this is long, but bear with me.
It's in bold exit pursued by a bear. Yeah, Shakespeare right.

(03:11):
I think it's the Winter's Tape, but I could be
I could be wrong which play that was, But yes,
it's just one of his most famous lines. It's a
stage direction. It's not even a proper line in them
they have an actual bear for that for that plant,
probably not. I think they should have gotten an actual bear. Okay,
back on track. So what Liz and I are going

(03:34):
to be trying to figure out in the next few weeks.
We want it is our full intention to get back
to a place of consistency where you know what nights
of the week to expect, what to expect, et cetera,
as far as our content goes. And it's going to
be a little while until we exactly figure out what

(03:56):
that is. I think that there's for the last year,
we've kind of been just keeping things going the way
that they had been going. Yeah, and that schedule was
something that made sense in a different context, and we're
not in that context anymore, and we haven't been for

(04:18):
a long time. And now it's like, Okay, we really
got to make some changes. And I don't know exactly.
It's like until we find it, we're not gonna know
what it is. Because Liz has been pumping out shows
and I have been not putting together any shows, which
has been a great break for me. This is not
pace Liz can probably sustain, although she's been sustaining it

(04:42):
longer than we thought because she's we didn't have much
up for her. Liz will put together a show and
it turns into two shows, and I'm like, oh, is
going great for us? And I'm trying to you guys know,
I've just really been trying to figure myself out on
conspiracy stuff and just who I even am with regard

(05:03):
to this show. And that's part of about half of
the roadblock to me putting forward shows right now. The
other half is that I have two children. Oh, I
had noticed. But hopefully in the next few weeks things
that have been super chaotic with John preparing to go
into the guard can maybe calm down. Hopefully he has

(05:26):
drilled once a month, but yes, things are just have
patients with us, please, Locals supporters, those of you who
support us financially on locals. One of the things that
is happening with the schedule probably is that we won't

(05:47):
at least consistently have a behind the paywall show every
week like we used to. That is part of our
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put the boys down and do a show for thirty people.

(06:09):
It just doesn't make a whole lot of sense, And
while we deeply appreciate those thirty it's just not I
hope you guys can understand. I do like that format though,
where we're covering current events, and you may see more
of that in main shows. That's something we're trying to

(06:30):
figure out, so fully understand if some more many of
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I'm understanding correctly, because it's been a little bit confusing
as to what's going on, two of you have basically

(06:53):
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(07:14):
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(07:35):
And where we would have been happy and are happy
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If you want to cancel your subscription, please go to
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(07:57):
through the bank. And if you're one of those people
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happy to do is pay your bank an unreasonable fee

(08:19):
because they messed up on there. Yeah, we love you guys.
We don't love your banks, is what I'm trying. It's
so lame. I think, specifically Chase Bank, I think all times.
I think that they think that they I think that
you guys have, in good faith thought you canceled your
subscription through your bank, and your bank messed it up

(08:39):
and then tried to punish us for it. So do
you want to know how messed up Chase Bank is?
We have clients who come in This has happened several times.
So they're like, so, I bank with Chase Bank, and
I have like an auto pay setup to pay my
mortgage through Chase Bank for my Chase Bank account, and
the bank will see the mortgage payment go out and
freeze account and be like does this socious activity? What
was that? Oh my god? From the bank to the

(09:02):
bank and they're like, no, that's not on my way.
So that's terrible. So yeah, not banking with Chase. What
you guys doing Anyway, I could be wrong, It might
not be Chase, but I thought I saw at least
on one of the notifications that it was Chased. So anyways,
if this, if you are one of those people, we're

(09:23):
not mad at you at all. We're mad at your bank.
Tell your bank to meet us out back. But I
hope you know that as we dispute what your bank
is doing, it's not that we're not willing to refund you.
We're very willing to refund you, but we're not willing
to do both. I want to spend like four or
five times what the refund is, yes, so okay, yeah,

(09:47):
but if you want to so, we would love it
if you continue to support us on locals, that is
the best way. Rumble rants are great, local support is great.
Those are both ways great ways to continue to support
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(10:09):
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So that's that perk is not going anywhere. That's for you.
You do have a little bit of a more direct
communication line to us as well through locals and what else.

(10:31):
We will still from time to time do an exclusive
stream to thank you guys and to hang out with
you guys. We just can't do it every week. It's
just not feasible. What we've come down to, Sorry, this
is like ten minutes of announcements, so sorry. What we've
come down to is that we've talked to some of you,

(10:51):
some of our core fans, that we love doing the
Bible Studies every week. We don't love doing the main
show every week, and we love doing the behind the
Paywall every week, but three shows a week is too
much for us and it's too much for you. Most
of our even like our hardest core fans, are not
keeping up with that content. And to me, that's like
if if that's too much for me and you're not

(11:13):
even watching it, I cannot justify. Yeah, I cannot justify that.
And I frankly would rather lose the local support for
the Behind the Paywall show than to give up the
Bible Study, because I think the Bible study is really important.
So most likely most weeks we're probably going to be
Here's what Liz and I have agreed to do. Yes,

(11:35):
every weekend, we get together and we record for a day,
and we're going to record what we have. So if
Liz has a show, we'll record it. If I have
a show, we'll record it. And if we have but
we'll record Bible studies as well. And then whatever we
have to give you on any given week, we will
give it to you. Yeah, you eat what we cook
for you, and then we will fall into a rhythm.

(11:57):
We're going to find a rhythm and that'll be come
more consistent for you. And then I think when especially
when something big is happening and we want to do
a live show about current events, we may still surprise
you with a live on a Wednesday night, and I'm
going to lean into not making my notes short so

(12:18):
that I can do a lot of accidental Oh yes,
So an additional apologies. We have a couple times in
the last month had a stream where we set the
video up to premiere just cut around the two hour mark.
We think we figured out what's happening. It is certainly

(12:39):
an error in Rumble Studio. We think we figured out
how we can make it stop. But I apologize to
you for that. If it happens, you are always I
always put up the audio so you can always switch
over to the audio on Spotify or wherever you get
your audio podcasts. But I think we can fix it.

(13:01):
It's taken us a while to figure out what is
going on. Are you also going to pre upload on
locals as well, in case the rumblestream cuts out, Yes,
and that will be like free on locals, it won't
be find on paywall on locals. So those are things
what we're trying to do. But yes, that did happen
in the last stream. Yeah, so we'll also by the
time you're listening to this, the full one will be up.

(13:23):
But yeah, Okay, what Liz, get into your show? What
are we doing? So we are going to talk about exorcism.
This is likely going to be a two parter because
again I'm not braining in my notes trying to keep

(13:45):
things contained, because you know, more content is good. Uh So,
probably in this first one we're going to talk about
evil spirits in the Old Testament and then the Intertestamental
period sort of what the Jewish people believed, what their
approach to exorcism was, et cetera. And then the next
one will do exorcism slash, evil spirits in the New Testament,

(14:06):
slash maybe if we get time for it, some Catholic
Church stuff relating to exorcism, because I feel like anytime
you say to exorcism, you're going to picture the clergy,
the Catholic Church, because that's what is in the media,
et cetera. But before we get into it, do you
want to pray? Oh? Yes, prayer, Dear Lord literal, thank

(14:27):
you so much for this day. Thank you that we
are able to talk about these things. Thank you that
you gave us your word to direct us in these
in these matters. I pray that you would keep us
asking questions to you and through you, and not seeking dark,
hidden knowledge of things that perhaps you don't have for us.

(14:48):
And I pray you keep us on the straight and narrow,
keep us in the light, keep us unafraid of these things,
and thank you for liz An Harisity your name of Men.
And I will say, even with this being potentially probably
a two parter, there's so much more in depth that
I could go, Like I feel like, I'm like, yeah,
I'm gonna do a deep dive, and then a two

(15:08):
parter just kind of scratches the service of the conversation. However,
I will say, as much as there's more that I
would like to do, I'm not going to keep this going.
I didn't even intend to do this for Spookie season.
This was just kind of accidental timing. And I don't
want to get so focused on this that it becomes
alternatively the show where we talk about demons. But I
think that that we reference them so much to have

(15:30):
this foundation of biblical knowledge is really good. Yeah, And
what I think I'll be doing is doing more research
in the background and building up notes so that when
it's time I can do another series like I'd love
to do, like a deep dive a close lens examination
of haunted dolls, for instance, or something like that. But
I again, I just don't want to focus so hard

(15:51):
and exclusively on this. Plus I want to talk about
Mermaids next. So also I am having the itch to
put together a show and I have no idea what
to do it on. So if anyone wants to DM
me tag me with something you're interested in hearing me
specifically talk about, please, but only if it's a lame show,
because I get to do all the good shows. That's

(16:12):
in the contract. Yes, that is in the contract. Yes.
So we're going to start out with Judges nine to
twenty three, and I don't have the link for you
for the verse because it's just one verse. I'm going
to read it. But the link I have is for
a Hebrew word, okay, so you'll pull it up in
a second. So the verse Judges nine twenty three is
and God sent an evil spirit between a Bimelech and

(16:34):
the leaders of Shechham, and the leaders of Shechham dealt
treacherously with the Bimelek. So we have an evil spirit
in the Bible. So go ahead and think I got
by God. We didn't pull up that thing. So I
hear I have the Hebrew word that's being used for spirit.
First of all, it is a feminine noun, which is
proof that all women are demons. Uh, yeah, that's definitely

(16:54):
that is. Yeah. So what's interesting to note is that
bruach or rurok it means spirit wind breath. This is
the term that's used for evil spirit. So it already
seems to tie with like the breath of God because
we have in the breath of life wherein is the
breath of life Genesis six seventeen. If you see lower

(17:14):
on that page, that's the same word as evil spirit.
So it seems like the concept of something being made alive,
something spiritual, our life in us, it's the same word
being used. Is there a separate word qualifier for evil
in that passage? Yes, And I think I have we
hone in on that in a second on another verse.

(17:36):
So we'll circle back to it if I don't. The
idea is it's an evil breath, Yeah, but it's not
necessarily God's breath or is it? Well, it's I mean,
I don't know if it distinguishes where the breath is
coming from. It just that when that word is used before.
It is used for God's breath. But I mean, you
could probably argue that, like there isn't any other right,

(17:58):
like who else could give life? Yeah, that's probably probably
only God. So then another usage we have of that
same word ruach in First Kings twenty two nineteen to
twenty three. I do have the passage for that, okay.
So and Macaiah said, therefore hear the word of the Lord.
I saw the Lord sitting on his throne, and all

(18:19):
the host of heaven standing beside him, on his right
hand and on his left. And the Lord said, who
will entice Ahab that he may go up and fall
at raymouth Gilead? And one said one thing, and another
said another. Then his spirit came forward and stood before
the Lord, saying, I will entice him. And the Lord
said to him by what means? And he said, I
will go out and will be a lying spirit in
the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, you

(18:40):
are to entice him, and you shall succeed. Go out
and do so. Now. Therefore, behold, the Lord has put
a lying spirit in the mouth of all these your prophets.
The Lord has declared disaster for you. And if you
can leave that up for a second. So, first of all,
this looks confusing to a lot of people of like, well,
God commands lying here. We have a lot of atheists
who will bring up this passage. So it's important to

(19:00):
note God doesn't command evil, but he allows demons to
do evil to those who reject God. So with ahab
Ah have had rejected God again and again and again
and again. He had rejected the word of the Lord
that was coming to him through Macaiah. So he had
proved again and again he only wanted the words of demons,
the words of lying spirits. He worshiped and follow in demons.
So God gave him over to demons. So what we're

(19:21):
seeing here is it's time for ay have to be
given over to this. So God is asking these spirits, okay,
which one of you wants DIBs on this? Because I
know you guys all like to mislead him. This is
my understanding. And this one says yes. And when God
says I will go out, oh sorry, Well, God says
you are to entice him and you shall succeed. I

(19:43):
think people read that as he's telling him to lie.
And I think what he's doing is a parameter of Okay,
you are allowed to entice him. That's what you want
to do. I'm gonna allow that, and you're gonna succeed
at that. That's your parameters for your behavior. So you're
not going to kill him, You're not gonna whatever. Right, Well,
this is this is very similar to what happens in Job,
where Satan comes and he asks permission to test Job
and God gives him parameters and allows him to do it.

(20:05):
Which I find this one in particular very funny because
God it's almost like God gets up and he's like,
I've decided to allow a bad thing today, which one
if you would like to do it, I feel like
some other one was like I will make him think
that his porridge tastes like broccoli, and God was like not,
but I'm looking close. Maybe next time he's gonna die.

(20:30):
But it does like it paints evil in such a
funny light that like they have to stand there and
wait for God to allow them to do a bad
ye before they can go into a bad So this
is something that's going to continue to show up, and
we're going to talk about a little bit more in depth,
a little bit further along the idea of there are

(20:51):
evil spirits in the Old Testament, and it has made
clear pretty much every time or every time they are
deeply at the best of God, they don't get to
independently do evil. They are only allowed to do evil
when God permits that. And that's a tricky thing for
Christians to kind of grapple, like why would God permit evil? Well,
why would God permit you to live when you blaspheme him?
There's a lot of questions in life and answers are

(21:14):
for subscribers only. What I'm just kidding, So we have
We're We're gonna keep kind of coming back to that
because there is actually a discussion that occurs, and I
forget if I get to it in the second part
or in this one, where people will use this approach
to demontic spirits in the Old Testament and compare it
to the New Testament and decide, well, it looks like

(21:34):
the Hebrews kind of changed their belief systems. Oh, and
I contend that that's not true, but we will get
to it when we get to it. So, uh, we
have ruach again. And I do want to say, I
don't think this is how it happens every single time
a bad thing happens. I think there are very specific
cases where God's like, I have a specific end that

(21:59):
I'd like to get too, and I am happy to
use you stupid little spirit to do that. You can
go and entice him or whatever. But it's I don't
think He's like, Hey, I have decided to allow a
bad thing to happen to this random right. Well, and
you see the specific circumstance of ahab of like he

(22:21):
only wants to listen to demons. So which one of
you would like to be the one who talks to
him exactly? Uh? And then there was another one that
I was thinking of where it's something similar. It'll come
back to me if it's important. I've lost my mouse.
So we've got that passage for Samuel sixteen fourteen to
twenty three. If you could pull that up. Yeah, you know,

(22:42):
I couldn't have put it better myself, Okay, And I
have already forgotten my reference fourteen to twenty three. Okay. Now,
the spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and a
harmful spirit from the Lord tormented him. And again that
from the Lord and Saul rather than of the Lord. Yeah,
ok from the Lord, and saul servants said to him, behold,
now a harmful spirit from God is tormenting you. Let

(23:03):
our Lord now command your servants who are before you,
to seek out a man who is skillful in playing
the liar. And when the harmful spirit from God is
upon you, he will play it and you will be well.
Su Saul said to his servants, provide for me a
man who can play well, and bring him to me.
One of the young men answered, behold, I have seen
a son of Jesse, the Bethelhemite, who was skillful in playing,
a man of valor, a man of war, prudent in speech,

(23:25):
and a man of good presence. And the Lord is
with him. Therefore Saul sent messengers to Jesse and said,
send me David, your son, who is with the sheep.
And Jesse took a donkey laden with bread and a
skin of wine and a young goat and sent them
by David his son, to Saul. And David came to
Saul and entered his service. And Saul loved him greatly,
and he became his armor bearer and salt. And Saul

(23:46):
sent to Jesse, saying, let David remain in my service.
For he has found favor in my sight. And whenever
the harmful spirit from God was upon Saul, David took
the liar and played it with his hand. So Saul
was refreshed and was well, and the harmful spirit departed
from him. Of music is so fascinating here this is
often used as an example of an Old Testament exorcism. Okay,

(24:06):
but he has to like keep exercising the same spirit
over and over. Well, and you see that in the
New Testament where Jesus is like the spirit leaves and
then he comes back and finds the house swept clean
and no occupants and brings seven of his friends because
the spirit's only leaving because of David and his skill
and that God is with him. But Saul has kept
the door open for this. So we see some precedent

(24:27):
for well, it seems like music, especially good music, maybe
not heavy metal, drives off or keeps him at bait
for a bit? Does it keep them away forever? And
then we see you know this, this reputation of harmful
spirit from God? And I think this is like an
argument for like worship music, in particular music played to God. Yeah,

(24:47):
I think you're not gonna chase off a devil spirit
with espressa by some Branda Carpenter. It's very specific. I've
tried it, that's why. Okay, I know, but I think
that one would be more effective, you know when you
put it that way. Also, I have a sudden scratch
in my throat, So I apologize if I sound like
I smoke a six pack? Is that what the company does?

(25:10):
She just apologizes if she said it up. I smoke
a six pack of beer. That's what I'm talking about. Ah.
So we've got first snuel eighteen ten to eleven, which
is our next one in this thing. So can you
read that for me? My third is chasing the word.
The next day, a harmful spirit from God rushed upon
Saul and he raved within his house while David was

(25:31):
playing the lyre as he did day by day. Saul
had his spirit in his hand, and Saul hurled the
spear before he thought, I will pin David to the wall,
but David evaded him twice. So you see where all
of a sudden, So it's been going well with the
lyre such but this time it doesn't work. In fact,
the spirit kind of compels Saul or Saul under the

(25:53):
influence of the spirit tries to kill David. And what's
also important to note is that after this field exorcism,
there is no further exorcism. Oh interesting, yeah, all right,
because it says in the next verse Saul was afraid
of David because the Lord was with him but had
departed from Saul. So Saul no longer has this protection
from God. He no longer has this in house exorcism

(26:15):
service on demand. And this is I think why he
continues to keep trying to kill David, and he seems
to kind of flip flop where he's like scared of
his actions, but he can't repent, et cetera, et cetera.
So the word when it used to say distressing, like
the harmful distressing spirit. If you want to pull up
that Hebrew link. Oh yeah, I skipped ahead with the references.

(26:37):
I did that on my it's the Bible blop one, okay.
So it means evil, bad, wicked, harmful, unpleasant, it's raw
and uh, it is used just it's just a word
that means evil. So this is where we get that
modifier for we know it's an evil spirit versus just
we're assuming spirits evil. Okay, there's helpful context. And then

(26:59):
I have an article that I have I'll be pulling
up in a second. I'm going to read an a
quote from it ahead of time. Okay, it's important when
we I think I might have let's see, Paul, is
I think not Paul Saul? In that eighteen the chapter eighteen,
verses ten to eleven, it said that, let's see, I

(27:26):
might not have it there anyway, I don't think it's
in this context. I might have confused myself with my notes.
But basically, at some point it mentions that Saul is prophesying.
Maybe that was even in the other passage, and the
article points out, don't be distracted by the word prophesying,
because we know an evil spirit cannot produce a righteous prophecy.
In fact, the original Hebrew for this word is hithpal,

(27:47):
which is only used to describe mad men and false prophecy,
such as in the following verse from Elijah's encounter with
idolators in the verses midday past and they continue their
frantic prophesying until the time for the evening sacrifice. But
there was no response, No one answered, no one paid attention.
That's one Kings eighteen twenty nine. It seems like a
lot of people who become demonized start spewing false prophecy. Yes, immediately.

(28:10):
In fact, I would dare say, when you have trying
to think of a good example of recently, that one
about the revelation, the tribulation stuff, the rapture, When you
have someone who's trying to speak in of prophetical capacity
and they're very clearly wrong, that is an indication of
demonic And that's I think why false prophets were It's

(28:32):
supposed to be executed because of the demonicass Oh. Interested, yes,
So then we are going to move on to the
Old Testament references to Satan. So I have that Lisit Saton. Okay,
so there's fourteen in this translation. I don't know what
other translations have, So if you could scroll a doone.

(28:56):
So we've got first chronicles twenty one to one. Then
Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.
Now there is another verse that references the same context
when it says that the Angel of the Lord's did
against Israel or the Angel of y'away. Oh, and so
it's important to recognize, first of all, Satan is a
title and it means adversary, and in the Old Testament

(29:20):
it can be used. I think it's used a couple
times for humans, it's used a couple of times for
just a nebulous adversary, and it's used a couple of
times and the context of God himself standing as an
adversary to someone. So the word satan automatically does not
mean evil. It just means in an adversarial role, Okay.
And so in the case of say, God's standing against

(29:42):
Israel and inciting David to number Israel, God wanted to
judge Israel, and so he incited David to commit the
sin that brought judgment on Israel. Now, I don't think
I've probably worded that wrong, because the Bible makes it
sore that God doesn't tempt us to do evil. Yeah,
but I think in this case, because I always took actually,

(30:03):
let's click on that passage because I want to dig
into it. I'm going to just I could bring up
on my end, and it was what first it was
twenty one? You scroll, I don't know, it's right there? No, yeah,
it's first one. So then Satan sered against Israel and
incited David to number Israel. So David said to Job
and the commanders of the army, go number Israel, et cetera,

(30:24):
et cetera. I want to find the part where the judgments.
Can you scroll a bit and God? But God was
displeased with the thing, and he struck Israel. And David
said to God, I've sinned greatly, and then I've done
this thing. But now please take away the iniquity of
your servant, for I have acted very foolishly. So I
do wonder if this is something that needs more study.
I'm just on the fly digging into this. I do

(30:45):
wonder if it's a case of, uh, the same thing
we saw with Ahab of someone is in rebellion and
God allows him to be expected to the other passage
that says angel of God or angel. I can google
that real quick, because that would be it'd be worthwhile
to look at. Yeah, don't have dead space. If you

(31:05):
could keep talking. Oh yeah, I have a developing theory
potentially on this. Usually the angel of the Lord is
recognized to be Jesus, but we also know that Satan
Lucifer was an angel, and so it's possible that in

(31:27):
depending on the context, you might be able to determine
whether we're talking about Jesus or Lucifer. And there's there's
another place where Jesus is identified with the morning Star, right. No,
so remember we talked about it's a translation thing. He's

(31:49):
identified with the morning Star, which is different than Lucifer.
Like those words are used differently, but when the Latin
bulgate translates that, he uses Lucifer. But it's what I
might take from that is that they at least at
some time appeared to be very similar beings before Jesus
was revealed as the Son of God. It's possible that's

(32:11):
where mononism gets the idea that they were siblings, which
I obviously don't agree. I would be very careful with
that line of that just because it does lead to
the er. But what I think what would biblically back
up The only point that I'm making is that he
is referred to as the Angel of the Lord, so
that there was a long period of time where the
person who is going to become Jesus, the Son of God,

(32:33):
was in the form of an angel, so in the
form of the same type of being as Lucifer. And
because Angelism's messenger not specific a kind of spiritual that's
true too. Yeah, I wonder the only thing I'm wondering
is if there was a period of time where, in

(32:53):
the same way that Jesus would have looked indistinguishable from
a human to most people while he was on the earth, right,
that Jesus prior to that was indistinguishable from the same
you know that Lucifer was. And that's why Hebrews goes
on to clarify, he yes, yes, exactly, that's why that
that's necessary. So second Samuel twenty four to one is

(33:13):
the other passage, so and again or sorry again, the
anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he
incited David against them, saying go number Israel and Judah
et cetera, et cetera. So and he now so it
doesn't say the Angel of Yeah, I must have mis
read that. Either that or there's a translation thing. So
basically the idea of okay, did he incite him directly
or did he incite him through Satan? Is that the

(33:35):
same ahab thing? Again? Okay, gotcha? Gotcha? We could go
back to that list of reference, lists of references. Okay,
Bunny trailed the bund we have Bunny trailed a bunch. Okay, no,
no back further to oh I say it now? Okay,
so Job one six. Now there was a day when
the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord,
and Satan also came among them, And then Job one seven.

(33:56):
The Lord said to Satan from where have you come.
Satan answered to the Lord and said, from going to
and fro on the earth, and from walking up and
down on it verse eight. And the Lord said to Satan,
have you considered my servant Job that there is none
like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man
who fears God and turns away from evil verse nine.
Then Satan answered the Lord and said God fear does
Job fear God for no reason? Skipping down to verse twelve,

(34:17):
and the Lord said to Satan, behold all that he
has is in your hand only against him. Do not
stretch out your hands. So Satan went up for the
presence of the Lord. Job two to one. Again, there
was a day when the sons of God came to
present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among
them to present himself before the Lord verse two. And
the Lord said to Satan from where have you come?
Satan answered the Lord and said, from going to and
fro on the earth, and from walking up and down

(34:38):
on it. And the Lord said to Satan, have you
considered my servant Job that there is none like him
on the earth, a blameless and upright man who fears
God and turns away from evil. He still holds fast
his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy
him without reason. Then Satan answered the Lord and said,
skin for skin, and all that a man has, he
will give for his Life's a bit more, moving down
to verse six, and Lord said to Satan, behold he

(35:00):
is in your hand. Only spare his life. So Satan
went out from the presence of the Lord and struck
Job with lows, some sores from the soul of his
foot to the crown of his head. Now this is
often quoted, and I think I did this before in
my The Devil is trans Thing, because my research misled me.
I think this is quoted as being an incidence of
the actual Satan. And according to Michael Heiser, when you

(35:24):
have the word for Satan, so Hebrew has instead of
they're like the when it comes to like an article,
it's like a letter that's added to the beginning of
a word. It's like there it determines whether it's thus
Satan or just Satan as a name. And when you
don't have it, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a what's

(35:44):
the word the proper down versus no, I don't know,
but this incident apparently does have the article it should
be theus satan. Oh okay, And so what he's pointing
out is this is obviously someone who's adversaria. There's that's
not the question. This is used in theology to, you know,
build up the understanding that you know, Satan stands as

(36:07):
an accuser. And I don't think any of that is wrong.
I think the quibble here is is this just a
bad angel or is this actually the bad one? The
the one? Yeah, but it's important to note that there
is a being in heaven who is kind of pushing
back against God saying, well, he only loves you because
of all the good things you gave him, right, And

(36:27):
so I see a lot of these people being like, well,
you know, why would God put job through that? And
it does come down to God's sovereignty in terms of
like when an angel is saying, well, he only loves you,
because of this, God's sovereignty is not allowed to go untested,
and so he is going to say, Okay, we're going
to prove it. I think it's interesting too that most

(36:48):
of the beings that are coming and presenting themselves before
the Lord seem to be like living in heaven. And
then Satan's also among them, as if he's not actually
one of them, but he's coming among them, kind of
masquerading among them. And God twice is like, where have
you come from? Like it wasn't from here? And then
he says from going back to and fro on the

(37:10):
earth twice. And there's another verse in the Newticeman who
talks about how Satan goes about like a roaring lion
seeking whom he made a of oron that seems to
echo this like going to and fro on the earth saying,
and I do kind of wonder there's a couple of
ways that this could be taken of angels, maybe just
individually falling, whereas like, is this the fall of Satan,

(37:35):
the fall of this dude where all of a sudden
he's like, you know, I'm actually I'm going to defy God?
Or is this an ardy defiance? And assist an argument
for the fallen angels. There's like a whibblu wobbly time
you want me thing here where the fallen angels are
not cast down from heaven yet in the same way
that Jesus didn't cast Judas out of his group knowing
that he was going to betray him. And then there's

(37:57):
like a question mark of is say like this one
Satan is fallen, but it isn't until the end in
Revelation where he is denied access to Heaven completely and
a third of the angels fall with him. So yes,

(38:18):
also an interesting point. I listened to the audiobook Demons
by Michael Heiser. I need to go back and read
it with my eyeballs to folly absorb it because I'm
more visual, and I would highly recommend all y'all read
and if you want more interesting other perspectives. I don't
necessarily agree with everything he says, but one thing he
points out is the Bible doesn't actually clarify that the
angels being swept down from Heaven by the Devil's tail

(38:39):
are fallen angels. He's like, there is a question does
Satan and his groups kill some angels? Are they capable?
Of Kio. Are those third being swept down by the devil,
fallen in the battle against the devil? Oh? I see,
I see. So that's worth looking ato more for further stuff.

(38:59):
I need to absorb more, Michael Heiser, But if you
could scroll a bit further back to the last of
the Joe references, because I want to start with Zechariah.
Zachariah three to one and three two are also quoted
as an example of the actual biblical Satan. And this
is the same case where it is the Satan. Then
he showed me Joshua the high priests standing before the

(39:19):
Angel of the Lord, and Satan's standing at his right hand,
to accuse him. And the Lord said to Satan, the
Lord rebuquo Satan, the Lord who has chosen Jerusalem or buque?
Is not this a brand plug from the fire? If you, oh,
this is lost. I thought there was another page. So
this is what we have for the idea of an adversary.
And it's not a lot to go on, It's really not.
And the it's interesting to see the work that's done

(39:42):
in building up like the geometrical proof basically of is
this the actual Satan of our understanding? And the different
reasons because you don't see it in the text necessarily,
but there is some really good arguments both ways. I
think I do want to say about Michael Heiser real quick.
On the one hand, I'm like, yes, read him. It's
very thought provoking, and I think that the types of

(40:04):
things you get thinking about and questioning the Bible about
like that, you get close, you get to be reading
closely and praying about it, and that's all very good.
But there's there's a little bit of a hitch in
my spirit about Heiser and about kind of the alternate
paths he tends to push people on that the majority
of theologians don't agree with, and it feels a little

(40:26):
bit secret knowlogy, and there's a part of me that's
like a little squiky about it. So my take is,
first of all, you've read more than me, so yes
that yeah, And I don't think he's in as much
disagreement with scholars as I had originally thought. Oh, I
think that there are other scholars, it's just that there's

(40:48):
not as many. But my take is this, first of all,
don't if you're gonna if you're the kind of person
who's like I just believe what I'm told and I
just read it. I wouldn't recommend it, because I do
think that you should be using discernment. I wouldn't recommend
being what you're told anyway. What I find is useful is,
you know, listen to what he's saying, see you know
an interesting point that stands out, and then go and
do the work to check his work and be like, Okay,

(41:10):
he's saying this paper word means this thing, et cetera,
et cetera. Let's look at what the Bible's saying. And
I think it's worth another perspective to ask, wait, is
this something I've been considered that it might be in
the text, and then go back and kind of do
the proof yourself. Right, it's a good story point, Yeah,
But like I don't agree with his stance on child baptism,

(41:33):
for instance, So you know, he anytime there's someone who
has interesting takes, it's worth remembering there's still a human
being and they are going to be wrong on some things,
just like everyone else. And sometimes it's somebody who's right
on a ton of stuff and they have a couple errors,
and sometimes the errors are indicative that the errors are
pervasive and you just be careful about that. And I'm

(41:55):
not sure. I don't think I've read enough Heiser to
really be sure, but I I I think his take
on like the astrological signs during Jesus' oh I thought,
I was like, what are you doing? I don't get it.
I thought it was interesting. I was like, I don't
know either way, it was interesting, but I didn't think

(42:15):
that it worked. And I was like, why are you
he built way? I thought he built way too much
on top of it. And I'm like, your foundation wasn't
even good and then you built way too much on
top of it. M. Yeah, no, I remember that now
that was in Was that Unseen Realm? Or was that? Yeah?
I think that was unseen Realm. It's been a while,
but I will say for Demons, one of the great

(42:36):
resources in it is that it gives you a good
understanding of what the belief regarding spirits was in that
time period, because I think it's really useful to read
the Bible in the context it was written. Yeah, even
but keeping in mind that just because people believe something
about it doesn't mean that that's true, because I've seen
people make this argument of like, well, the Jews believed

(42:58):
this in the Second Temple period and not therefore because
Jesus was a Jew. That's what he meant when he
said blah blah blah, and they use it to compromise
what he said. And it's like, no, Jesus did come
along and correct a lot of things, So we're not
going to correct Jesus with the belief if they're in common.
And what I'm referring to here was not even correcting him,

(43:20):
but of there are certain references that are made in
the Bible that you don't really get and tell, you know,
the context of like what do they compare this? Like
like with uh, we're actually gonna you know that I
can't English, where the sadducees come up to Jesus and
they're all like, so this dude marries a woman and
then he dies, and then she marries his brother and

(43:41):
he dies. Uh. That's actually from an interdusemental literature that
we're going to look into. I believe it's to bid yes.
So that's your spoilers. But the idea of there's a
certain framework that the Jewish mind had that the Bible
speaks to to help them understand these concepts they use
that framework and build on it, which is I think

(44:02):
why we see Peter and Jude referencing stuff that would
be understood from Enoch. Yes, and it seems like it
might be, you know, adding some veracity to the idea
of the Nephelin being ghosts, or there might be something
else going on there. It requires more study. Yeah, this
stuff has been so I've been wrestling with this for

(44:23):
like two years now. Okay, please continue. So Amos three
to six, I'm gonna it's I don't have a reference
for that. It's again, it's just a verse anytime. It's
just a verse in my notes. Oh, I didn't do
a reference because otherwise it just be like a gazillion tabs,
fair enough, So feel free to double check look up
the reference. Don't take my word for it that this
is the right verse, Okay, But the idea of we've

(44:44):
just talked about evil spirits being entirely at the beest
of the Lord and Amos three six kind of drives
this home is a trumpet blown in a city and
the people are not afraid. Does disaster come to a
city unless the Lord has done it? So this is
very much the synthesis of the Old Testament presentation of
God and of evil, that no evil happens outside of

(45:04):
God's control. There's not a rogue element. There's not in
m baroque element. I mean, there's not something that can
escape God's power. There's not something that God's not powerful
enough to stop. But it does mean that for whatever reason,
God allows these things that think they're rebelling to still
do his will. And I think that's an interesting thing

(45:25):
of like they think it's so the Jewish people when
they go into captivity and they're punished by God and
they're attacked by the Babylonians. God is using that to
judge the Israelites for their sins, and he's using the
Babylonians who wanted to attack the Israelites. But then the
Babylonians also come into punishment for what they've done. What

(45:47):
God's essentially done is given free reign to their free will.
I think if anything, you've used it. There's a middle
stance between Calvinism and non Calvinism, where there's sometimes we
have free will and sometimes we don't. It comes in
It does seem to me that we have freewel to
a point, and then once we reach a certain point,
God gives us over even more fully and almost is like, Okay,

(46:11):
you've been sitting long enough and now you don't. You're
not gonna have the freeble to get out of it anymore,
and you're just gonna go deeper into it. I'm gonna
give you over to it. It's going to take you over.
And that's a tricky one. Like I I wish I
had answers, and I wish when I feel like I
had the answers, I could explain them in a way
that sounds like I have the answers, so y'all could
know what's going on in my head. But moving on
to there's a reference an article. If you could bring

(46:34):
that up, it's we're gonna look at the section on
Nebu Kindezzer old Nebu Chad near Nebbi Chad. Never child,
this looks like an interesting It is interesting. I would
love to read the whole thing. We just don't have time,
but you're welcome to go back and do it. So
all this happened. This is reading from Daniel four twenty
thirty four. All this happened to King Nebu Kondnezzar twelve
months later, as the king was walking on the roof

(46:56):
of the Royal Palace of Babylon. He said, it's not this.
The great Bablon have built as a royal residence by
my mighty power and for the glory of my majesty.
Good move, guy, good move, just no notes. Even as
the words were on his lips, a voice came from heaven.
This is what has decreed for you, King Nebuka Neezzer.
Your royal authority has been taken from you. You will

(47:17):
be driven away from people and will live with the
wild animals. You will eat grass like the ox. Seven
times will pass by for you until you acknowledge that
the most highest sovereign over all kingdoms on earth and
gives them to anyone he wishes. Immediately, what had been
said about nebukin Neezer was fulfilled. He was driven away
from people and ate grass like the ox. His body
was drenched with the dew of heaven, until his hair
grew like the feathers of an eagle, and his nails

(47:38):
like the claws of a bird. At the end of
that time, I, Nebuchadonezzer, raised my eyes toward Heaven, and
my sanity was restored. Then I praised the Most High.
I honored and glorified him who lives forever. It's a
fascinating story. So then the article goes on and safe.
You could scroll a bit more because your picture's cutting
out some text. Oh, it was prophesied by Daniel that
Nebukadezzer would be cast out from his throne and act

(47:59):
like an animal if he continued rejecting God. Only until
he finally acknowledged God and received salvation, was he cured
of this insanity. Nebukud Neezzar's rejection of God was in
itself a demonic worship of his own gods and his
own power. He was a slave to sin and satan.
God hands him over to his Babylonian gods and to
his own royal power to show him how powerless he is,
and that God is the only true God. I find

(48:19):
it interesting that nebukud Neezar's name means oh, God, Nabu
preserved to fend my firstborn son, and Nabu is the
Babylonian god of wisdom and rational thought. Oh wow, but
we know from Romans that when nebukudez A worshiped Nebu,
he was worshiping demons. So when God hands him over
to to who Nabu truly is. He hasn't given the
gift of wisdom a rational thought, but is turned insane
and acts like an animal. This reveals a real influence

(48:40):
on his life and shows once again that God can
choose to give demon's power over people who reject him.
Only when Nebukindear's time of insanity was over was over with,
did he finally give up his Bablonian gods and accept
the one true God. God gave him mercy and the
demonic influence on his life was exercised. I think it's
interesting back to the Calvinism idea real quick that basically

(49:01):
I could be wrong, But as far as I'm thinking
about it, any time it appears that God has taken
free will from somebody or any of the proofs is
always in a negative direction. It's God hardened Pharaoh's heart,
It's God gave them over too, it's God, you know,
took his sanity, and it's but I don't think I

(49:22):
ever see it in God forced him to accept him. Yeah,
I want to say this is my this is my
take in the moment, that we are given free will
as a gift from God, and we can use it
for or against him. But there comes a point where
God takes that away. And at that point, you know,
the Bible says, we're slaves to sin if we're not saved.

(49:42):
So when that gift of like, hey, you could choose me,
it's taken away. Your master has you, and you don't
have free will under that master because you've projected the
one who would give you free will. God is the
only one who gives free will. Satan doesn't give you
free will. So if God hands you over to Satan,
then you don't have your free will anymore. Is I
think what I would say? Yeah, my secret third thing theory,
and I might not perfectly say it because I don't

(50:04):
remember my theory without looking at it written down, is
the idea that the God of this world, which is
referenced in I think it's a romance I've got probably
whatever it's reference in the New Testament, which is Satan.
When you are under the God of this world's power,
you don't have any free will and all the evil
isn't ordained for you by the God of this world,
of like he has a plan for your life, and

(50:25):
it sucks. It's a very very plan, and God allows
him this certain amount of rain. But when you come
over to the Kingdom of God, you're not in the
control of this God of this world. What He has
ordained for you may or may not come to pass,
depending on whether God chooses to allow it. So it's
like somehow I'm mixed, threat is torn up all of a sudden.

(50:46):
I find at the end of the day that most
of the I think, all of the good faith sharp
theological divice, not the bad faith ones, not the It
is very clear in scripture that this is not okay,
and you're just doing this because you want to kind
of a thing. But the good faith ones, Calvinism or
Arminianism is Jesus reigning, ruling and reigning right now, we're

(51:10):
isy now you're talking about this morning on walk. It's
usually both. It's the answer is somehow both, and it's
just that our human minds are not like Bigue enough
to comprehend how it could be both at the same time.
And something occurred to me. I was telling Abby this
on our walk today when my pastor was preaching, it
just came to my mind of the the already not
there yet, of the Kingdom of God, because there's a

(51:31):
point where Jesus says the Kingdom of God is upon you,
when when the Kingdom of God is compared to a
seat that grows. So the Kingdom of God is upon
you because the seed has been planted, it's now germinated.
There's nothing that can be done to stop it yet.
But it hasn't come to full force yet. It hasn't
come to fruition yet, and tell Jesus's return. So it's
here and it's growing, growing, the already not there yet. Yeah,

(51:55):
It's like saying I have a fig tree. It's here,
it's not growing figs yet, it's going to be down
in a few years. Like I'm pregnant, I have a son.
The baby's here, I promise, Yeah, but it's uncooked. The
baby is not delivered yet. And that's interesting too. Of
there's a lot of metaphor of birth pains around the
tribulation of like the kingdom is being born potentially, I

(52:16):
don't know. I do love the use of metaphor in
the Bible. A ten out of ten. Good job, good
job God. So moving on, Proverbs twenty one to sixteen
says one who wanders from the way of good sense
will rest in the assembly of the dead. The word
dead there is refam. If you could pull up the
thing image sugar and reugh, I am I mean spirit,

(52:39):
ghost or shade? Doown What do you recognize about that
word refim. That is the same word as one of
the groups that Abraham bought. Yeah, so sometimes it is
also translated as giants, which is interesting that the word
that is used for giant can also mean departed spirits.
I do see some reason to be like, Okay, that
nephalum thing, there's some I do think this is the

(53:01):
best biblical evidence we have of that idea. I feel
like I've come you know, the bell curve where it's like, uh, yeah,
the spirits of the of the dead are Nephilim or
it's the ghost of nephil And you get up there
and you're like but X y Z thing and all
the blah blah, and and you're like, oh, yeah, no,
they are, they are. But but but you've you've gotten

(53:22):
right of all the extra add ons that happened at
the top of the bell curve, right, Yeah, I think
you're I think you're right because I think that there's
somewhere in the middle of that bell curve. There's giving
nephilim way too much power and importance, and then when
we get here it's like, yeah, evil spirits are okay, cool.
It's it's funny because when I started out all this research,

(53:44):
like starting out with soul sleep stuff, I had pretty
much rejected the nephylom idea, and as I did more research,
I was like, actually, I don't actually working it might
be true. It's one of those things where, just like
any theory at any time I'm going to hold loosely,
and I'm going to reject loosely too, unless it's just
distinctly unbiblical. So then we have Isaiah twenty nine to four,

(54:05):
and you'll be brought low from the earth. You shall speak,
and from the dust your speech will be bad down
your voice shall come from the ground like the voice
of a ghost, and from the dust your speech shall whisper.
And that also is I believe I am. So if
you could click on that link I have for the
interlinearyet it's right here. Okay, so we have oh, like

(54:25):
a medium's your voice out of the ground like a
muh yeah. So that's why I had that that reference.
So okay, can I just read this whole thing from here,
because I'm very fascinated by it. I'm trying to do
it in my head. I'm like mis well real like it,
and shall be. Your speech shall be low and out
of the dust. You shall speak out of the ground,
and you shall be brought down, shall whisper your speech

(54:47):
and out of the dust, your voice out of the ground,
like a medium's. It is funny how different languages will
do things differently. And one thing that Hebrew does is
these little repetitions that add like a little bit of detail.
So your voice out of the dust, your voice, out
of your speech, out of the dust, your voice out
of the out of the ground. It's very poetic. Yeah, thanks,
ye mea coke, not the setup. So the thing I

(55:10):
wanted to hone in on here, I'm glad that you
caught that, because I had forgot what I was trying
to hone in on. Is ob is the word. I
think the plural is chaob, but the root is op
and it can mean medium, necromancer, spiritist, ghost, or familiar spirit.
So one thing necromance. Okay, the idea of like these

(55:33):
things died and then necromancy was done to like make
the spirit maybe. So one thing that we're going to
look at in the next few verses is something that's
translated as you know, you shall not turn to mediums
or necromancers. Can also be translated as you shall not
turn to spirits. So the idea of what is the
Bible really saying here is our understanding kind of messed up?

(55:54):
I mean, don't I'm not at all just to forest
all any misunderstandings. I'm not trying to it's actually okay
to go to mediums. It's not. But I'm trying to
argue is there actually one? This goes back to my
understanding of the Bible as a kid of like, oh,
don't go to mediums because still connect you with demons?
And is this Bible? Is the Bible just straight up
saying don't go to ghosts? Is my r here? Right? So? Uh,

(56:20):
it's basically so we're gonna look at Leviticus nineteen thirty one.
Do not turn to mediums or necromancers, do not seek
them out, and so make yourselves uncleaned by them. I
am the Lord, your God, I have the interlinear Bible passage,
and it could also be seen as do not turn
to the ones who have knowledge and the ones of
knowledge not necessarily being actual mediums, but as this let's
say it's the interlinear Bible puts it familiar spirits. Let's see.

(56:43):
I just yeah, I want to read all the interlinear
ones out love for it, because okay am yahweh, I
buy them to be defiled. Do you seek after them?
Not familiar spirits and mediums to give regard your God?

(57:04):
I love Hebrew so good. And the reason also, sorry,
familiar spirits and mediums to give regard. No. The reason
I bring up this passage too is that was translated
here as medium, and then it's a different word. It's
a different word, and the one that's translated here's familiar

(57:26):
spirits is a different word too, and it can also
mean ghost or medium, and then the one here this
used for medium can also is one. I think. So
I wonder if the idea is like the medium is
such an intermediary, then like they're not the important thing

(57:48):
the you are going to the medium to get to
the demon. Yeah, so the demon is the thing that
God doesn't want you to get to and the medium
is almost incidental or like you should definitely kill that
person because they're conduit to these bad things. So this
ties into the the Near Eastern understanding of messengers, specifically

(58:11):
angels in the Bible, is that there is so little
distinction between the messenger and the one who sent it.
It's like, if I come to you with a message
from Abby, I am so thoroughly acting in Abby's name
that I'm essentially Abby in the flesh in front of
you for all intents and purposes. And this is why
there's some debate of you know, is the Angel of
the Lord actually yahweh or is it an angel acting

(58:34):
so thoroughly on behalf of God in God's name that
this is and you see like other examples of that.
So which is interesting because the Angel of the Lord
being Jesus and Jesus being the word yes. Yeah. And
so when you have this thing where the distinction between
medium and spirits, it's kind of odd. It's because essentially
it's the same thing. This person is in the flesh

(58:54):
representation of these spirits. So they're they're kind of they've
become like a binary our system, so to speak. And
then we have Leviticus twenty six. If a person turns
to mediums and necromancershooring after them, I will set my
face against that person and will cut him off from
among his people. So we have the interlead in our
Bible for that one as well, and I will set

(59:15):
with them to prostitute himself familiar spirits and mediums, to
turns who and the person his people from him and
cut off that against person my face. That was very
well put. It is so interesting how languages have different
grammar where it's like this is understandable to them in
that grammar, and our grammar to them is weird. Yeah,
Greek is similar, but the almost almost every language, at

(59:38):
least language family puts things in a different order than
English puts them in. And my understanding is that Russians
really funny and that it kind of in most cases
doesn't matter wherever you put things, that you can just
throw stuff into the Yeah, well that's the case with Greek,
of like each phrase matters, Yeah, it needs to, but
you could like put the phrases in any order you
want in the sentence and yeah, whereas English like really

(01:00:00):
matters what order you say things. Yeah, English, English is
the best language because I speak it, but other languages
are cool too. But yeah, so in this verse, we
have that same word for familiar spirits, and that same
word for mediums that gets translated as just mediums and necromancers.
So I think one of the week familiar spirits is

(01:00:21):
going necromancers mediums in this case. I think in this
case what's being translated as necromancer is mediums. Oh weird.
I could be wrong. It's kind of hard to tell
looking at the ESV which word is weird because the
order is really weird, so it could be the other
way around. But basically the idea of the English almost

(01:00:41):
seems to kind of put some further separation. And I
don't know if that's intentional of people being like, well,
you know, go start real. So what's really meant here?
Is this? Sometimes I worry that stuff like that does
happen in translation, and sometimes I'm like, well, I mean,
these are scholars who spent a lot longer understanding the
language and the context, et cetera. Maybe maybe I don't

(01:01:02):
know more than them. Be kind of strange because I
do know everything, huh. But and then levitic Is twenty
twenty seven the same thing. A man or a woman
who is a medium or a necromancer shall surely be
put to death. They shall be stoned with stones, their
blood shall be upon them. Now this one's more clear
because it's talking about a specific human like a man
or a woman who can't stone. A spirit with stones
shall be put to death surely who has familiar spirits

(01:01:23):
or medium. So someone who has familiar sir or a
medium is who a woman or and a man upon them?
Their blood shall be them, they shall stone. Yes, and
those are the same. I look the same words. Actually, uh,
it's yeah. Sometimes it does throw me that the the
different I guess conjugations of the words where I'm like,

(01:01:43):
that doesn't look right, that doesn't look familiar, and then
I look it up and it's the same word, and yeah,
these that's it. Interesting. The idea of like when when
I think of a necromancer, like in our modern understanding
is like someone who's trying to raise a whole body
of a like an but and you think of someone
who's raising a body kind of without the soul, like

(01:02:05):
that a necromancer is raising like a zombie body without spirit,
as opposed to this, which seems to be saying spear
without body, spear without body. Yeah, the idea of like
a kind of equivalent in our day and age would
be like someone who does a sounce a medium would
be a necromancer, right, raising the dead, which which I
think goes into the same concept of all of these

(01:02:29):
cultures that do ancestor worship and try to pray to
their ancestors, pray to their heroes from the past. It's
all it's all the same thing. It's all very evil.
You're not supposed to do anything to try to wake
the dead. Oh. Also the idea of raising a body
without a spirit. The idea of zombie comes from voodoo,

(01:02:49):
which comes from every coast, which is where we used
to live. It's a very animistic culture. And it's not
my fault. Abbys can't speak with another, not my fault.
I don't think it's my fault. I don't remember everything
I did over there. But that's actually where we get
the word zombie. It was spelled z o mbi. And
it's the idea of basically a slave that you have.

(01:03:09):
I don't think in this case it is brought back
from the dead. I think there was like a shift
over time. But it's someone who you have control over
their spirits, so they're kind of like vacant did have
no free will and they follow you. Interesting isn't that fun?
And to be clear, don't do that to people. Don't
use voodoo. I know that sounds like fun, not even once.
Not even. So then we have some some context for

(01:03:42):
other words that were understood, other creatures that were understood
in that culture, and that we find in the Bible.
So also it's important to point out the term used
for inquiring of the dead is a different word than
the one for inquiring of the spirits, I guess, because
then we've come across the word and I wish I
had given some examples. But there's the word shad dim,
and I think the singular, like the I am, is plural,

(01:04:05):
the singular is like shed something, don't don't, don't come
at me. Yeah, basically this means foreign gods. So you've
got the dead, which we just talked about, and then
we've got inquiring of the spirits, which is shod in.
So they're all in the spiritual realm, yes, but you
have a differentiation between this. Okay, this is where I

(01:04:28):
think that I've disagreed, not necessarily with Enoch, but with
the the the Enochian Nephylm craze, where it's basically it's
almost denying everything that's not Nephelin. That's where they go around.
But the idea of the Bible does distinguish between the
spirits that are these gods that are being worshiped in

(01:04:50):
the spirits that are the the spirits of the nepheline
that are being often yeah called on by necromancers. And
I think this is why it's so interesting how cultural understanding.
You go through this period. We're like they're all wrong,
and like they've been getting it wrong for years, and
then you do the research, You're like, this is the
right answer. And then you do more research and you're like, actually,

(01:05:12):
what they had was the right answer. They just got
to it wrongly. They just did the wrong work. That's
the right answer of like maybe it is there are
actually ghosts and there are actually demons, and they were
right in thinking that. They just didn't they accidentally two
plus three. Accidentally they got five. They thought they were
getting four. I think a lot of times what happens,
I've seen this happen in so many different We were

(01:05:32):
talking about one with regard to kind of weight loss
and health this morning on our walk. But I've seen
it happen a lot with the Bible and struggled with
it where at some point someone did a really complex
amount of work to come to a conclusion, and then
and then that conclusion gets passed along with kind of
just the barest remembrance of the work to get there.

(01:05:55):
So people will be like, yeah, don't eat fat because
you'll get fat, and it's like, okay, no, but oil
does have a super high calorie density. Eat too many
calories and you start to put on weight. So I
guess you can see where you got there. But like,
the oversimplification ends up being wrong, so you have to

(01:06:15):
correct the oversimplification. But if you go back to the work,
you're like, oh, and this isn't as incompatible with this
other thing that the oversimplifications seem incompatible. But you get
down to the work and you're like, oh, this actually
goes together. Fine. You're playing this big game of telephone.
It's like, how the man versus bear thing also brought

(01:06:37):
this up earlier, you know, would you choose a man
versus a bear is a game of telephone because the
original context of that was it is statistically proven that
a trained grossly bear is safer and less likely to
attack you than a man. That's the actual man versus
bear thing, and then everyone in the comments was like,
but the bear is trained not to, and the pole
point is like, well then train the man. Not too

(01:07:00):
pretty straight forward. I feel like Madame worth sentially in
Bears last time I checked. Bears don't have sin nature?
Do we know that for sure? Because some animals will
become serial killers, and then the Bible seems to condemn,
like you remember in Leviticus where it's like a pinox
his uh, Gordon has to die for it. See. I
think that there's some Lewis does this, I think in

(01:07:23):
Out of the Silent Planet. But the idea that you
don't have to have a sin nature to sin, yeah,
but a sin nature guarantees that you will sin. Yeah,
and you were always bent towards sin. But that a
being without a sin nature, as Adam was without a
sin nature when he first sinned, can still choose that sin.

(01:07:46):
So a grizzly bear doesn't have a sin nature. But
once that animal chooses to start sinning, to start killing
humans and they do not stop, it's like a binary
of yeah, it's I think it's the same with angels.
Once you have for bald against God, it just stays
that way. Yeah, I would also like wonder. So sometimes Rue,
I would like to wonder. I would like to wonder
if I could think, if I could Rue will do
this thing where she likes to bat chords against the wall.

(01:08:08):
She doesn't chew on them usually, but she just likes
to bat them and makes a noise, and I'd be like,
stop it, and she'll stop, and she'll look at me,
and she got all these scortly little eyes. And then
I'll kind of step out of the room and you
can see she's watching, and she's waiting till I'm gone,
And then you can tell a little gears in her
head turning, and she starts batting it. And then I
sneak up behind her and she gets really scared. Does
that mean she has in nature because she knows what
she's doing, she knows she's not supposed to. Because I

(01:08:30):
would like to see her in heaven, But I don't
know if I need Is that sin an animal? When
an animal violates the authority of a human is that sin?
Or is it only when they violate God's law? And
I think God's own I think God's only law for
an animals that they're not allowed to kill humans. Yeah, well,

(01:08:51):
and hopefully it's not just shed blood because has done that.
I think I think it's kind of like a toddler,
where like they will defy you, but they don't know
what they're doing. Is they don't really even understand the
concept of defined Yes, they're just kind of not fully
developed it in the brain. I do think toddlers know
that they shouldn't kill other people, though. Yeah, the youngest
murderer is four, and it was a case of I

(01:09:16):
forgot all the context, but basically it's like a four
year old kid and the dad is being abusive and
the kid was like, I can fix this, and like
got the gun out of the safe and shot the
dad and he knew what he was doing. I mean
as much as the kid can. Yeah. Wow. It was
just like a very simple binary of like I can
make mean dad stop. Like I don't think kids realize
like this is what death is and this is what

(01:09:38):
the consequences the heavy consequences of your actions are. I
think the kids just say, like, loud gun thing, make
that stock being mean. But you can tell then in
order for a four year old to understand that line
of thinking that the dad has killed things in front
of the four year old with a gun enough times
that the four year old knows he can make dad stop,
or he's watched enough movies that should not have been

(01:09:58):
played for him as a kid to see. Yeah, yeah,
and probably both right for him to under I don't
know where a four year old's at, but for him
to connect the physical gun and the physical safe to
be able to go get it with that intention of
making dad stuff, there's got to be really messed up
stuff there. In short, the dad had it coming. Yeah.
There's actually a girl on Instagram or TikTok a while
back where she was like it's a similar thing where

(01:10:20):
she's at like six, and she stabbed her dad and
the dad just like has the scar now and they
joke about it. And I think that was like his
wake up called, like, I am so horrible that my
child just shanked me. I should change, I should change,
I should change anyway going back, because we haven't really
gotten who it's fine, So talking about foreign gods shouldn't
I think should die like el should die comes from

(01:10:42):
that root of the word. Mm hmm. That sounds right. Yeah,
I'm not a linguistic so don't quote me, but not
Abby so it's often translated easier foreign gods, demons or devils,
and it is related to the Acadian words to do,
which means demon in that culture, which for them, it's
a creature of either good or evil. In the rothology,

(01:11:02):
contexts would determine what that means. Okay. And one of
the books that I read for this research, it was
written by like an expert on like a Catholic expert
on Catholic exorcism. He was trying to make the claim
the early Christians didn't see the word daemon, like the
Greek word daemon, as inherently evil or not. I meant
to do more research on that. From what I looked at,
I didn't see that being a confusion, but I wasn't

(01:11:24):
able to dig deeply enough. But it's I think it's
maybe the same concept of angel of like this could
be a good thing, could be a bad I think
context of specific it's like oh, more of a nebulous
word kind of the idea of like this type of
being might be for God or not. Yeah, but this
is like the word indicates just the type of being,
the level of power, not necessarily the orientation. Yeah. So

(01:11:45):
an example, some examples of this word being used in
the Bible Denteronomy thirty two seventeen. They sacrificed to demons
that were not God. I don't have a link for this.
Most of these verses I'm going to read now, they're
just indoors. So they sacrificed to demons that were not God,
to God's same word they had never known, to new
gods that had come recently, whom your father's had never
dreaded Psalms one, six thirty seven. They sacrifice their sons

(01:12:07):
and their daughters to demon to the demons. And then
a reference in the New Testament the same concept, different
word obviously because it's a different language, but the same
concept you see carried over into the New Testament is
First Corinthians ten twenty No. I implied that what pagan sacrifice
they offer to demons and not to God. I do
not want you to be participants with demons. And this

(01:12:28):
is this is an important verse because in the Old
Testament it's there seems to be an implication of like,
you're just sacrificing to idols, there's nothing applied to them.
But the idea of the New test the Old Testament
makes the point of these idols represent your foreign gods
and they are powerless. And then the New Testament comes
along and says, these foreign gods are demons. So you've

(01:12:48):
got that continued line of thought as like a sort
of and they are powerless progression of yeah, in the
face of God. But that it's your your idol. Wasn't
worshiping idol had a spiritual meat, like, Yes, it was
more serious than just a whine kneel before a piece
of wood. Why is God so mad? And I think

(01:13:08):
the point is it is just a piece of wood,
and the wood is a nerd and can't save you.
But you are doing this with the intention of worshiping
this foreign God, and this foreign God is a demon.
So that's the distinction. Yeah. So then we have the serum,
which is satyrs, hairy demons. It's also used as a derive,
derisive reference to foreign deities. So we've got Leviticus seventeen

(01:13:31):
seven that says, so they shall no more sacrifice their
sacrifices to goat demons after whom they hore. This shall
be a statute forever for them throughout their generations. I
also just think it's interesting this because it's terminology came
up in the neckermancer medium thing of after whom they
wore themselves after this, I think it's very it's a
very big theme in the Bible of infidelity to God

(01:13:53):
going after foreign demons as being equated to adultery, to whoring.
And it's not just a metaphor in terms of helping
you understand that you're cheating. It's also these are these
demonic religions are very heavily centered around like sexual perversion. Right. Well, so,
I Ali Beth Stucky did a really good Jubilee interview.

(01:14:13):
I would encourage everybody to go watch it. It was
one of the Jubilee debates where you're surrounded by people
and they can like run up and debate you for
a few minutes and then they take turns. It's fun interesting,
it's fun, and I appreciate when a debate just doesn't
go like on and on and like it just gets awful,
like they switch out the people a lot. Anyway, Ali

(01:14:34):
talked about homosexuality and one of the things that she
was defending was her biblical position on homosexuality and one
of the things that over and over, maybe I should
do a show on this that the pro homosexuality Christians
were defending, was this idea that, well, every time it's
talked about in the Bible, talked about in the Old Testment,
talked about in the New Testament, it's in the context

(01:14:55):
of idolatry. And so what it really means is that
temple prostitution is bad, and that like, basically that homosexuality
is only bad when it is in the context of
service to these demons. And so they make the argument
because it's only brought up in these contexts, it's only

(01:15:16):
wrong in these contexts. And I thought Ali did a
great job, but I would have gone farther than her
to say, no, it's only in these contexts. Because it
is always in these contexts. You think that your homosexuality
isn't connected to idolatry anymore. But I think that that's
what the Bible is saying. Homosexuality is always in service

(01:15:37):
of these Homosexuality is inherently in and of itself an
act of worship to a demon, because you are not
worshiping God, because that's not the order the God set up. Right,
So the defense that these liberal Christians have created for
homosexuality should actually be a deeper condemnation of it, yes,

(01:15:58):
and it shows their poor logic of like there essentially
they look at the horse drawing the cart and they're like,
actually it's going into reverse and the carts driving it. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,
So second Chronicles eleven thirteen to fifteen, again I don't
have this reference app for you. And the priests and

(01:16:19):
the Levites who were in all Israel presented themselves to
him from all places where they lived. For the Levites
left their common lands and their holdings and came to
Judah and Jerusalem because Jarre Boeham and his sons cast
him out from serving as priests with the Lord, and
he appointed his own priests for the high places and
for the goat idols and for the calves he had made. Now,
if you would like a silly song to look up

(01:16:39):
of your own accord, there's a band called the Darts there.
I can't think a smaller band or Christian. They did
an album called The Darts Pointless, and it's just very
silly songs. And they have a song about Jarre Boehm's
drive through Church which is just really hilarious and I
recommend that whole the whole album. That's a deep cut
that is a Abby and Liz Lore Deep Cut the

(01:17:02):
Darts Pointless album. We listen to that a lot. If
you ever see me quote they come to the first
Nasca method, Baptocostal seventh the Orthodoxlicitarian, non denominational Church of
Our Lady of the Mind. That is one of their songs.
Not just me having a mental breakdown. I wonder if
David danced the volka. That's what I think of the most.

(01:17:23):
They literally have one track on the album. It's just
thirty five seconds of someone laughing, and it's not even cheesey.
You start laughing at the end of it. You're like
against your will laughing, like stop stop, stop anyway, So
the references to the goat demons that that aram word,
I apologize. I'm gonna butcher every single word. It's not
because I'm being hateful to Hebrews. It's just because I'm dumb.

(01:17:46):
I'm going to spend just dumb, which actually instantly there's
a there's a strong crossover between dumbness and anti Semitism.
But and when I say in this context is a
Semitic I mean anti Semitic language, yes, which you can't
kill a language, well, a semantic anti semantic. You know
the difference between I'm gonna mess this up, the difference

(01:18:09):
between etymology and entomology. Sorry, the difference between the entomology
and etymology bugs me in a way that I can't
put into words. I always think that's too makes sense.
I feel like I butchered a joke by that. Remember
which anyway, So I don't think you have to put
them in order for it to work. Yeah, I just
want to line up, Like if I say entomology first,

(01:18:30):
I want that to be the bug one because it
bugs me in a way I can't put into wards.
It still works. So these go idol, these goat demons.
They are referenced alongside the lilith in Isaiah. Okay, because
lilith is in the Bible Astriss citation citation. Well, I'm
giving you the citation. So Isaiah thirty is I just

(01:18:53):
compulsively lie Isaiah thirteen twenty one. But wild animals will
lie down there, and their houses will be full of
owling creatures. Their ostriches will dwell, and their wild goats
will dance. So the wild goats are the goat things.
And then uh oh yeah, if you want to click
on that link just to prove the work of the

(01:19:14):
goat word. Okay, yes, so this is the sator. Sorry, Sator.
The satyr's in the Bible. Just don't look at what's
referenced about you in the Bible and you'll be fine.
Saty goat Harry, he goats stata. Which is interesting that
this has a link to Esau is a hairy man. Yes,
I guess it has that same. It is interesting how

(01:19:36):
how languages work of like this male goated man basically
instead of Harry. Yeah, And I think I think that
there's like there's been question mark of light. Did he
have some sort of nephelin DNA going on? But he
and Jacob are twins, and so I wonder if it's
more of a metaphor thing going on here than an actual,

(01:19:59):
like genetic thing. But if they were fraternal twins, they
don't share the same DNA. What can happen in a
family is like I'm gonna butcher this, and you're welcome
to fact check me. But say our mom is ten
percent Jewish, you get a mix of DNA from your
mom and your dad that is different for child. So
Abby could be five percent Jewish and I could get

(01:20:20):
none of the Jewish. I'm not trying to argue I
used it. As far as we know, our mom is
not ten percent Jewish. But the idea here being so
what we're trying to say is Abby is one hundred
percent Jewish for some reason, and Liz's zero somehow I'm not.

(01:20:40):
But the idea here of of the question, you know,
why did from the beginning God understand I'm gonna make
covenant with Jacob and I'm gonna have nothing to do
with Esau. So you could make a genetic argument for it.
There was a little something something going on there. Yeah,
none of it went to Jacob. He was he was
the pure blood, and then Esau had that dirty, stinky,

(01:21:01):
filthy potentially, and I wouldn't die on that hill either way.
I might kill someone on that hill. It's a little
more fun. But yeah. And then moving on to Isaiah
thirty four. Oh, you know what is so interesting? When
Jacob dressed up as he saw he used goat hair. Yes, yeah, yeah,
he can go hair on. Okay. The good God got
got okay. So Isaiah thirty four, toteen and wild animals

(01:21:25):
shall meet with hyenas. The wild goat shall cry to
his fellow. Indeed they are. The night bird settles and
finds for herself a resting place. So the nightbird is
where we find that Lilith reference. If you could click
on my next link, it's already cliked. Your mom is
already hot. Give me some cred I will give you not.
So this is where we get Lilith. And it's night creature,
night monsters, screech owl, night specter. So it's interesting screech

(01:21:46):
owl is put here because the screech owl and Lilith
are very strongly linked. It was seen as a symbol
of her. So I could see people arguing, no, it
could be translated as an animal. The reason it's translated
as an animal is because that's her animal and it
stands with her. It's her. It's like the bulls of
Bash and like. But yeah, okay, so it's a female
night demon and the original again in fact check me

(01:22:11):
on everything here. But it seems like the original Jewish
understanding of Lilith's they were suck you by which later
they became known as like child stealing demons. But they
were often, like I said, often associated with screech owls,
and it was only shoot I don't. I think it
was like fourteen it was not. It's it's a relatively

(01:22:34):
new I don't know what's problem with my throat, A
relatively new addition of the idea of Lilith being Adam's
first wife. That's not even original Jewish mertholty mythology. I
give up, Abby, take it away, You do the rest
of the show. So then moving on to our next word,
it's I think it's pronounced Mawit's pronounced mavet, or sometimes

(01:22:55):
said mott. It's the Hebrew word for death. I might
have missed this in You're no, I don't have a
link for this in mine. Oh, okay, go ahead, We're
gonna just do the rest of the song, singing back
the rest of the show, singing at each other. So
it's a Hebrew word for death. And the name of
the Kenaane god of the underworld is Mott. So it's
tied ah. So Isaiah twenty eight fifteen to eighteen says,

(01:23:17):
because you have said we have made a covenant with death,
so mallet or mobat, and with Shale, we have an agreement.
When the overwhelming whip passes through, it will not come
to us, for we have made lies our refuge, and
in fault said we have taken shelter. Therefore, thus says
the Lord God, behold, I am the one who is
laid as a foundation in Zion, a stone, a tested stone,
a precious cornerstone of a shore. Foundation. That's Jesus. Whoever believes,

(01:23:39):
will not be in haste. And I will make justice
the line and righteousness the plumb line, and hail will
sweep away the refuge of lies, and water will overwhelm
the shelter. Then your covenant with death will be annulled,
and your agreement with Shale will not stand. Then the
overwhelming scourge passes through, you will be beaten down by it.
And it almost seems to be there's a way in
which the Hebrew language and loses a lot includes a

(01:24:01):
lot of potential personifications of regular old nouns, And it's
not necessarily saying this noun is an actual foreign god. Yeah,
but it might be. Yeah, it might be that it
is just making a point of using that personification to
sort of poetically say something, or it might be accusing
things of poetry when they're not actually poetry. Yeah, then

(01:24:23):
we have Deremiah nine twenty one for death has come
up into your windows. It has entered our palaces, cutting
off the children from the streets and the young men
from the squares. It's interesting because we in English will
also use this personification, and we will use the personification
in thinking about it as a being, the grim Reaper,
the grim Reaper Davy Jones. Yeah, when we personify death,

(01:24:46):
we are actually referring to a being. I do find
it interesting that it seems, it seems in the majority
of cultures that we yeah, that humans do personify death,
and that means something haities in uh in dark romance.
There's like some dark cram books about romance with the

(01:25:09):
Grim Reaper. Oh, like the actual Yeah, messed up out there.
Hoseah thirteen fourteen. I shall ransom them from the power
of shield. I shall redeem them from death. Oh Death,
Where are your plagues? Oshiel? Where is your sting? Compassion
is hidden from my eyes? To me? This is again
I'm just using me logic. It doesn't seem like God
would need to tempt a natural, mindless thing that happens

(01:25:32):
right in the in the in the context of like
treating like a proper noun, unless like this is an
actual being that is when you say tempt, you mean taunt. Yes,
thank you, you are autocorrect. I am, I was like
that what I speak. Yeah, it is weird the idea
of God like taunting a natural just just an event.

(01:25:54):
Why would you taunt an event? Like if I to
me use an example, and I realize it's a bad one.
If I make a pot and then I talk, but
I would absolutely get a verbal altercation with something that
I made that's an inanimate Yeah, And I mean, I
guess you could argue that the event of death is
such a big deal and it is authored by Satan,
and so if God taunts the event, is he's taunting

(01:26:15):
the snake, He's taunting the sin that led to the death.
So you can make that argument that either direction. Yeah,
And then we have Job eighteen thirteen. It consumes the
parts of his skin. The firstborn of death consumes his limbs.
That's where we have the firstborn of death. Hmmm. And
Job twenty eight twenty two abaden and death say, we

(01:26:36):
have heard a rumor of it with our ears. So
this thing about a baden. There's a couple of verses
in the Bible, and didn't pull them all that say
Abadon and death, and it kind of presents this image
of like these two angels because we know Angel is
a bad and the same as Hades, because you also
hear death in Hades as a pair. I bunch in
the New Testament's all I think there's some argument. Yes,
I'm not sure. That's another one that needs more research,

(01:26:58):
because Hades would just be the Greek name and for
the creature, and Abaden would be maybe more the Hebrew
name for the creature. The Old Testament refers to Hades, well,
it gets translated as Hades in English, but there's obviously
a Hebrew word for that concept. That's a good question
in Paul, the Old Testament refers to Hades. Yeah, I

(01:27:22):
thought how we didn't see it into the New Testament
because well, we use the English word hades, so it's
not they're not using the Greek word Hades and the
Old Testament. Okay, I'm trying to find I mean, maybe
I'm full of bunk, but I think it did. And
that's a weird translation to choose to put back into
a level check to make sure I'm not full of
peepee poop poo cocka peepee poo poo cocka. That's the

(01:27:43):
official word. Laugh at my am very important theological study. No,
I like it. There's no hades in the Old Testament. Okay,
I was disregard everything I've set up to this point
because I am full of people, full of p people
who go and my nose it just so just life
is horrible in general. Is someone doing something on there?
Oh yeah, that's probably doing something against the wall, because
looks some noise in the background. I'll pause real quick.

(01:28:07):
You're back. Welcome back to us who left and you
did not leave, so I'll still get I have tea,
so hopefully I will both burn myself and stop having
a discritchy throat. We shall see. Uh. So we had
left off talking about job. This is just recap for Abby,
not for you guys. Now we're going to talk about
russ Chef, who is a Canaanite major deity sort of

(01:28:29):
an ancient Near Eastern god of plague. And then we
have in Hebacca three five. So there's a verse before
him with pestilence and plague falling at his heels. Sous
Chef is the plague falling at his heels. The pestilence
is daver de vere I'm gonna these are proper like

(01:28:49):
in the context seem to be problem in the context.
It's kind of hard to tell, but they do exist
as potentially other deities, like okay, rue chief is, So
it's hard to tell if God is saying he's going
forth with these foreign deities who are following, like have
to obey him of something else is going on here.

(01:29:10):
This is just kind of examples of possible. Yes, yes,
that's the word. So other names of gods that are
used as regular old nouns are like astrath, which means
increase of the flock, diagon means grain. So it's kind
of hard to tell. Okay, is there a context where

(01:29:31):
this is just a regular old now and that shares
a name and God its name as a foreign god
from this noun or one it's using these nouns? Is
God actually talking about these things? Are these all the
things that are under the purview of that foreign God?
And I do wonder if it's like both yes, because
I think we live in a society where we don't
see the deeper spiritual meaning behind things. Everything is so disconnected,

(01:29:52):
and back then it was just like all intertwined. When
you talked about harvest. When you talked about a harvest festival,
God had to specifically be like, I want you to
celebrate harvest testiful, don't boil young goat in his mother's milk,
Like yeah, not like that though, yeah, And like the
old understanding of like there's a demon for every bush,
there's a foreign god for every brick and everybody. You know,

(01:30:14):
we very much have become more and more atheistic. And
I don't mean that in a I don't believe in
any god, but in the old sense of the word
of like they don't believe in many gods because like
the Greeks used to think that, the Greece and Romans
used to think that Christians were atheists because they only
lived in one god. They denied all the other gods.
Oh so richef is also gets translated as plague and

(01:30:36):
Deuteronomy thirty two twenty four. They shall be wasted with
hunger and devoured by plague and poisonous pestilence. I will
send the teeth of beasts against them, with the venom
of the things that crawl in the dust. P. Seventy eight,
forty eight. He gave over their cattle to the hail
and they're flucked to the thunderbolts. That's thunderbolts is where
Mari Chef shows up. It's also translated as fiery darts
in some seventy six to three. There he broke the

(01:30:56):
flashing arrows to shield the sword and the weapons of war.
The second like Zeus's thunderbolt, Like it's almost talking about
that being like a demonic weapon. Yeah, kind of. And
then Tongue of Salomon Ate six sent me as a
seal upon your heart, as a seal upon your arm,
for love as strong as death, jealousy as fears, as
the graves. Flashes are flashes of fire. They're very clam

(01:31:18):
with the Lord. And my o'derstanding is it's that flashes
a fire, that is see you have you have done,
and much better and more grounded than me. You've kind
of it's almost like you picked up my work that
I was doing on all the old gods and how
they tied in with the Bible, and I was just
like I got so off track, I got scared of myself,
and I stopped and I was like I'm just too

(01:31:40):
far off scriptur and you like picked it up and
like found it's so so cool, thank you, thank you,
so that other words, take credit, go for it, go
for it. I was gonna be like, you know, you
can have it if it's gonna make you feel better
about yourself, if you want the participation trip whoa. Oh, okay,

(01:32:01):
twelve percent of the credit. Okay, that's a lot. So
going back to that verse from a back at three
five before him went pestilence and plague fall out of seal.
So we've got the plague that we've talked about, the
thing that gets We're gonna go back to pestilence, which
is diver It's also mentioned in Psalm ninety one five
to six you will not fear the terror of the night,
nor the era that flies by day, nor the pestilence

(01:32:21):
that stocks in the darkness, nor the destruction that wasted
in New Dave. What's interesting here is there are other
words in this that we should look at. So the
terror of the night is Pahad, the arrow in this
case is hez, destruction is kutev. These have also apparently
been plausibly identified as names of demons. Oh and Psalm
ninety one. There's several psalms that seem to have been

(01:32:42):
used as exorcism psalms or psalms to ward off demons.
There are four in uh, there's a specific Dead Sea
scroll four psalms, and only one of them is legible,
and that is Psalm ninety one. Oh, that was used
as like a it. The way they took it is
like every verse is specifically referring to to specific spiritual

(01:33:02):
demonic things that God is protecting us from. It's not
so much referring to like the physical thing, but the
thing that's causing the physical. You get back to the
idea that David was an exorcist with his music, and
that starts to write that a little bit more power too,
because like what if David was playing the latter in
singing Psalm ninety one right as an exorcist song or
just that like through his experience with that with Saul,

(01:33:24):
he even made something better later on as his relationship
with God deepened and he was king and he wrote
the Definitive Treatise on it kind of And I think
there's I think some one might be attributed to Moses.
I'm not hunt of percent sure. There's a tradition at
me that Moses actually sang that song on his way
up Mount Sinai to meet with God so that he

(01:33:44):
would be waylaid by demons along the way. Let's see
AI overview says, Okay, actually I'm gonna do Quora Cora?
Was Psalm ninety one written by Moses or David. It
might also be unattributed. I think it's one of those.

(01:34:06):
Let's see traditional ascription in most heavy manuscripts, and the
masotic text does not attach an author the song ninety one,
and many English Bibles simply title it a psalm of
David or leave it untitled. The subtuagen in some early
Christian traditions attribute it to Moses, but that attribution is
not uniform, and that would be like much later on
that that's being attributed to Moses. Wouldn't it be interesting

(01:34:28):
if it was written by Adam? I mean, I have
nothing to bay say on I just wanted to say, Oh,
I was just I was going to suggest perhaps it
was like one of like originally written by Moses, an
updated by updated by David, you know, like an old
song updated. Yeah. So I find it always interesting when
the Bible talks about like I in my head, I

(01:34:51):
want the inspiration of scripture to be really linear of
like God told me this, I wrote it down. Yeah,
it seems like there's like the writing and then God
leading people to edit or alter, and I sometimes I'm wondering,
I'm like, okay, well what if people have been changing
a bunch and we don't actually have what God intended?
I mean, God has this really stern warnings about not adding,
but then he also says, my word will not pass away, right,

(01:35:13):
And I don't think God is so weak that his
message could be so thoroughly clouded. And that's when you
start to come from those angles. That's where you get
people who are like, well, you know, it's actually, yeah,
we have the Bible as Satan and things have changed
a bunch, so yeah, yeah, that was a tangent. But
the idea that some things have been written by deeper
authors than the one we think of, Like any of
David's psalms could have been updates of older songs just

(01:35:36):
because he's the one who wrote them down, set them
to music, or whatever it was that he did with them. Well,
it's like continued revelation of like God might have revealed
partially through a psalm, and David finished adding the revelation
from God about the psalm, right, or Moses wrote wrote
it and he's the one who wrote it down, and

(01:35:57):
that's why we're like confused about in it the ANSWER's boat.
Or maybe Moses wrote it down and David Camp with
a cool little tune, right, and Moses wrote it down
because Adam wrote it. We don't know. I don't think
I wrote it. I don't think anyone thinks Adam wrote it.
I don't even think Adam wrote it, but it'd be interesting.
So Azazel, we've talked about this before, but we have

(01:36:18):
three verses in Leviticus. If you want to pull that
link up, I do have a link. Do do do do?
Do do? Uh? So starting verse eight, we've got We've
talked about this on the show quite a bit. Oh
we have. Yeah, this is this is like the my
thing I can talk about my thing. I still remember
because I used to read an ivy the New International Perversion.

(01:36:40):
I still like anv uh, and it translated as like scapegoat.
And it wasn't until I think I was reading the
message or something. Maybe no, maybe it was sv where
I saw isasel. I was like because I watching Supernatural
and I was like, excuse me, excuse me? So and
Aaron shall cast lots over the two goats, one lot
for the Lord and the other lot for Azazel. And
then verse ten. But the goat on which the lot

(01:37:02):
fell for Azazel shall be presented alive before the Lord
to make atonement over it, that it may be sent
to weigh into the wilderness to Azazel. It's a bit more,
and I think it's the voice six chier. Let me look,
it's twenty six. I knew there's a six in it.
And and he who lets the goat go to Azazel
shall wash his clothes and bathe his body and water,

(01:37:24):
and afterwards he may come into the camp. And we've
talked about this before, but I just think it's worth
mentioning that. Like it's it's kind of like a visual
representation of sin being cast out into the desert, but
it's also a visual representation of the goat as an
offering is given to God as his due, and the
goat full of sin is given to Isazel as his due,
because what Isaesels do is is sin. So that's interesting.

(01:37:48):
But this is an example of is this a fallen angel.
There's a lot of work that's done, and this is
maybe maybe I should even do a full episode on
Isazel to just potentially prove that he is actually Satan,
and so it's worth looking into. But that's just like
this other being thing in the Old Testament. And then

(01:38:09):
this is a stretch. But I love a good stretch.
I warmed up for it. First, are there vampires in
the Bible? We have Proverbs thirty fifteen, which says the
leech has two daughters to give, and give three things
are not ever satisfied for never says enough. Now, the
word for leech in Hebrew is a luca, and it
could mean leech in Hebrew, but in Arabic literature that

(01:38:30):
is the name of a vampire. Now this could be
for the horse thing, because, like you know, maybe name
of vampire for something that sex blood, like a leech.
Or do we name the leech after the vampire which
came first? The chicken or the vampire? Now it is
important for context. The preceding verse Proverbs thirty fourteen says
there are those whose teeth are swords, whose fangs are knives,

(01:38:52):
to devour the poor off the earth and needy from
among mankind. It almost seems to me like God is
comparing the rich people who take advantage of the poor
to an existing vampire creature that has teeth that are
sorts pangs in our knives. Okay, can you please dove
a whole episode on vampires? Yes, Oh, I would love to.

(01:39:12):
I that's actually one that has been in the back
burner in my mind long before there's even a show
of Like, there are so many cultures that are divorced
from each other that have vampire myths, and it's there's
there's a reason I'm gonna this is where I get canceled.
There is a reason why while it got so popular. Yeah,
and it's not because it was written well it was, though.

(01:39:33):
It is that there's there's a thing that catches in
the cultural psyche. I feel its way about zombies too,
where it seems like when something gets really big, they
doesn't have to be a blanket thing, but often there
is a little bit of a kernel something we recognize, ye,
like a little bit of prophecy you're into it, or
a little bit of like cultural understanding that runs into
subconscious and like the hind brain where everything gets super

(01:39:56):
duper you know, yeah, yeah, just instinctive vampire. Okay, what
I would love to see you do because a argument
that I have seen popping up more and more in
the anti Semitic online realm is that the reason why
all of these cultures have a vampire myth is because

(01:40:17):
it's always about Jews, that the Jews are the vampires,
and I would love to see I think the actual
explanation of the vampire myth that's I can give you,
probably as one sentence explanation of that is that vampire
myths existed before the Jewish nations, so they're retarded, not
the Jewish, the people who think that the Jews are bampires.

(01:40:40):
I was pretty sure that was the case. I have
seen Jewish people out during the daytime, true though they
weren't even sparkling. They weren't even sparkling, which is really disappunting.
And then I got arrested for chasing and down streaming,
Like why chase sparkling? It's whatever. I don't even want
to talk about it. Why do you bring it up
at me? Diagnosed such a traumatic memory for you. Vampires

(01:41:02):
in in like folklore don't show up in mirrors, and
that's because silver silver Knight Right is used in mirrors.
It's still used in mirrors, and that's why they wouldn't
show up photographs because it was like a silver plate. Oh,
we don't use that in photographs now, so they would
show up in photographs now eoretically, so I even could
be a vampire. Ooh yeah we could not. Really I couldn't. Yeah,

(01:41:29):
my canons are I worked with a Romanian. This is important.
She was Romanian and her canines were so sharp. They
had to be filed down so they would stop cutting
her lips. And they were still like sharp after being
filed down. They just needed to make it so they
weren't like knife knife legit vampire DNA. Yeah, she's, like
I said, Romanian. Also, one time someone asked her, did

(01:41:50):
you have the black plague in Romania? And she was like,
we don't have black people in Romania. Romanians aren't black.
And we were like, you thought that the black was
a reference to just black people. Wow, awesome? Good. I
mean a vampire would be racist against dark skin though right,
probably taste is good. I don't like dark wow is

(01:42:13):
I don't like, I'm going to cancel myself before anyone
else calling yourself in the corner, think about what you've
done fornever to think. But anyway, so another another being
you'll be familiar with. This is Belile Belliol Belliol, second
Parthian six fifteen. I know, I know, this is a
new Testament thing. I'm cheating. What a court has christ

(01:42:34):
with Belliol Blile or what portion does a believer share
with an unbeliever. Now, this being, we're kind of starting
tooth move over a little bit more into interestamental stuff.
We're still going to referenced Testament. This being appears in
the densey scrolls. It's most often uses name for a
demon lord or the demon lord, like the Lord of
all demons. It seems like the role of Satan, as

(01:42:56):
we understand in culture, gets attributed to a lot of
different names. And I think it could be that either
a bunch of different beings are vying for like no,
I'm the head one and there's not actually a head one,
or it's the case of like God has given himself
a lot of titles, and in competition with God, this
being has also given himself a lot of titles. I

(01:43:16):
like the idea that it's like this slimy, deceptive constantly
changing his name, constantly reinventing himself with different cultures and
different things. But God's like, I'm gonna name you by
every name you've ever like, you can't hide from me,
and I'm just going to like name you. Yeah. It's like, uh,
I've gone by a lot of aliases and running from whatever,
and then someone shows up and they're like, hello, Susan

(01:43:38):
Larabeth twelfth the third and I'm like, you know all
in my names. I don't know why those are my
names I went from. I do think this is something
that I got wrong, where I was like, oh, because
there's a bunch of different names in the Bible, and
because there's a different bunch of different names in these pantheons,
that means that Satan isn't just one and I'm like, no, oh,
he is, but he's super deceptive and he has minions,

(01:44:01):
which I think is fair like that they can be
part of the pantheon. But like Satan is Satan. And
just because God's like, oh, I'm I'm opposed to X
name Beady or X name Demon, than that, I think
God's still just just naming him by all the names
he has ever tried to hide behind. Yeah, And I
think I made that point in the Devil's trans episode

(01:44:24):
where you know, identity issues come from the devil because
unity of identity, whatever. But also Michael Heizer points out
that you know the the division of the nations under
different foreign gods, and it could be that sometimes when
God is calling out a specific being, it's because he's
calling out that leader of that region who is who's
a problem. So there's there's some unclarity in there, and

(01:44:48):
I would love to do more research than that. This
is just gonna become, alternatively the show where we talk
at nauseum about demonic and foreign gods, and it's somehow
we do four hundred episodes and they're all unique and
there's still something to talk changing our minds. Yeah, No,
I do think I have a lot more peace with
the position we have now. That's like, I don't know,

(01:45:10):
it can't be this and this and this and this.
Well here's what the Bible says, and I don't know.
We're spitballing and we're trying to like test out each
football because I think for a long time I had
a theory and I was trying to shoehorn it into
the Bible and it wasn't looking and I kept pushing,
and I think it just put me in a little
bit of a dark place, like I'd rather see what
the Bible has to say, like come up with an idea,
see what the Bible has to say. And honestly, like

(01:45:31):
I have, I have no vested interest in even coming
to an answer. What I mean is that I'm not
allergic to coming to an answer. I just don't think
that I will. So I want to just throw around
ideas and it encourages me to look deeper into the
word and understand more of what's being said. Yeah, so
we are getting down to talking about Oh, I was

(01:45:52):
still talking about beut you. I just kind of scrolled.
So he's the demon lord, and then I got a
side tracked. It also shows up in other intertestamental writing,
and the keeper word belly yao blaya all means no
benefit or no thriving or roughly scoundrel, and it shows
up translated in English as torrents of destruction of streams
of destruction in Second Samuel twenty to five, for the

(01:46:13):
waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction has
sailed me, and then Psalm eighteen five, the courts to
Shale entangled me, The snares of death confronted me. I
forget which one it was. It was either the snares
of death or the courts of Shale, one of those.
The idea of this, it seems like people were making
the argument, well, belli al is just nonproper noun in

(01:46:34):
the Old Testament. And I think again, it's like, well,
as we see this progression in thought, is it that
people are taking something I'm running with it or is
it because they understood it's It's sometimes I wonder is
this a progression of thought or is this a progression
in our understanding of their thought where they are talking
about something that was a given where maybe they just
understood this whole time. All these deities are being referenced here,

(01:46:55):
all these foreign gods that are under God's control, and
it's us coming through our lens of well, of course
there's only the one God. Because we make the mistaken
idea of this. This is another thing that comes up.
People will accuse the Jewish people of like they've developed monotheism,
and so they kind of denied all the existence of

(01:47:15):
other demons. And then we go through they end up
in Babylonia, where they are introduced to Zoroastrianism and the
concept of demons, and then you see them adding this
to their worldview in the New Testament, where all of
a sudden it's like this conflicting but like there were
monotheists and other polytheists, and it's like, you can be
a monotheist in a religion where you recognize there are
other gods, but there is only one God we serve.

(01:47:36):
There are other gods created by the Almighty God who
is in charge there are because it does not conflict
with Christianity to acknowledge that there are angels, that there
are these spiritual beings that are not human, that are
under God's control. What was I say I serve one
God is not to say that no other being exists
that somebody could serve. It's just to say I only

(01:47:57):
serve them one. And God himself says, like the most
High God, like the most high priests. There are other
priests high of what, most of what, Almighty of what.
So it's it's not contradictory to say, well, there are
other creatures that God has given roles to. We already
acknowledge that there are angels. So it's people act like
it's this big leap, and I think there's there's a
reason why people have this block of recognizing that there's

(01:48:20):
something going on. I don't know. I don't need to
overthink it, but I would like to overthink it. So
let's continue to overthink. So in intertestimleh in not writing,
it takes on the meaning thelile takes on the meaning
of a spirit of perversion, an angel of darkness, or
an angel of destruction who rules over other spirits. Another

(01:48:40):
name used for this prince of darkness concept is mestiema
or mastema. I'm say mastema, which is translated as enmity
or opposition. In Joseiah nine seven eight, the days of
punishment of come, the days of recommends have come. Israel
shall know it. The prophet is a fool. This man
of the spirit is mad because of your iniquity and
great hatred. The prophet is the watch but of effroe
with my God, yet a fowl or snare, as all

(01:49:01):
is on all his ways and hatred in the house
of God. So en Mati is fowler snare. Here it's
like I'm quoting something that quotes his translations, and I'm
quoting a different translation uses different words. It is really interesting.
A lot of a lot of these metaphors fower snare,
chords of whatever. Yeah. Yeah, they're really really commonly repeated,

(01:49:22):
especially in the Psalms lines, where it's like, why are
you so obsessed with this one metaphor to use it
over and over? But if it's actually a reference to
a specific being, and instead of naming the being by
the name that would perhaps give it some power, yeah,
you're naming it by the destruction it reaks. I think
that's very fascinating. Well, and I think it's also interesting
because like, if if we were to take I'm trying

(01:49:42):
to think of the best way to do this basically
like a mixed language Bible or instead of being like okay,
sometimes it's translated powerless snare, Sometimes it's translated this. It's
like you only give that name each time, because then
you would get a feel for this name comes up
a lot, This concept comes up a lot because stop
translate so many different things. Yeah, like it muddy's the
water And maybe there's some way in which the language

(01:50:03):
indicates the way it's supposed to be taken. But it
does make me wonder of like how much are we missing?
Would we have a better understanding of the spiritual world
and spiritual warfare if we knew like, oh, God says
this many times that he is going to protect us
from this thing. I don't know. I'm just curious now.
I kind of like, I don't want to learn Hebrews.
I want someone to just give me like a mad

(01:50:24):
Lib version of the Bible where they just selectively don't
translate certain things so I can see patterns because I
like pattern recognizing. What I think I need is someone
who speaks, you know how, there's a really anticipate concept
of like, uh, was it like a goy slave or something,
where like a gentile is a slave of a Jewish person.
What I think of arguing for here is a Jewish slave.

(01:50:45):
You know. It's funny because I was just thinking of
some of the best teaching, like, yes, most interesting, most
just like rich teaching on the Old Testaments that I've
ever seen is by Jewish rabbis. The problem. Yeah, they
know the language and that's where you get. They know
the language and they know the culture of like so

(01:51:06):
much of culture is informed by language and languages informed
by culture. And not only do they know the Hebrew,
but they have the Jewish people, especially like the devout
ones have preserved a culture to the extent that they've
been able to preserve an understanding of their old language
in a way that like, we're not connected as much

(01:51:26):
to the culture that Shakespeare wrote, even though it's still English,
if that makes sense. So there's there's a level of
understanding there that they get of the Old Testament. But
the problem is that they don't have the Holy Spirit
teaching them because they didn't accept Jesus. They don't have
that salvation. And so they have this like incredible academic
knowledge of the Old Testament, and I think that there's

(01:51:48):
a ton of good insight there, but the teaching only
goes so far because they're missing Jesus. They're missing the
way that Jesus like Anyway, I could go on and
on about this. That reminded me of one thing I'm
gonna go off topic and do. But yes, I also
just wanted to go back, like I could have a
Jewish slave, which would be super awful. What I also

(01:52:09):
realize is I could do a word search myself. This
is better if I'm actually secretly Jewish in my own
slafe anyway, side, so you're saying your Jewish slave is
jugle yesjgle or if I'm feeling a little bit spicy
being but that's only if I don't want I find
what I'm looking for. But side note in reference to
rabbis and people like deeply looking into the Old Testament

(01:52:32):
and understanding a lot about it and not getting the
Jesus is in there. This is really interesting. So Proverbs
thirty verse four, Who has gone up to heaven and
come down, Whose hands have gathered up the wind, who
has wrapped up the waters in a cloak, who has
established all the ends of the earth. What is his name?
And what is the name of his son? Surely you know?

(01:52:53):
And I wow. The funny thing is if you look
at Google. Google was like, oh, that's not actually a
reference to Jesus. That's a quote from like an alluh,
some other cultures proverb. And I was like, do you
think do you maybe possibly think God used that proverb
because it's talking about his son, that this is prophecy
that ended up in another culture or what we see

(01:53:14):
in the Old Testament to the Genesis six one to
four where it talks about the nephilin that is apparently
a polemic against this other mythical representation of I think
it's the what did they called the the watchers? The
not the watchers them the seven wise men in Mesopotamian culture.

(01:53:35):
Thank you where God is like that, thank you for
being briefly possessed by the spirit of whatever, and you
how to pronounce that? I'm sorry. The idea of this
is my take from, you know, listening to lectures and
stuff that God setting the record straight. He's like, you
guys have a partial understanding what's going on. I'm going
to reference this and explain what actually happened. And I think,

(01:53:58):
but yeah, it's this the verse. You'd have to kind
of be, I think a little dishonest to claim it's
not talking about Jesus. Yeah, good talk. So I love
but I love that child of Light. Surely you know
his name? Yeah, surely? And what is his name? And
what is the name of his son? Surely you know
like you've been told us, like you've you you should know.

(01:54:21):
I feel like people need to talk about that first
more often do it? Do it? Anyway? So we're gonna
look at so I talked about versus Josea nine seven
to eight. So we're gonna look at those two verses
in the interlinear Bibles. Okay, Jose, n uh, Yes, that's
a first verse. So this is where we have and

(01:54:42):
you're gonna have to pardon because I have to find
the words I'm looking for again. Well, I'm going to
read it insane. The prophet is a fool. Israel knows
of recompense. The days have come of punishment. The days
have come enmity, and great of your iniquity, of the
greatness because the spiritual man is don't go yet, so
enmity here. Look at what is the word above? Enmity them? Okay,

(01:55:03):
you can. You can go to the next verse for seven. Okay,
in the house enmity. Oh, but it's capitalized, yep. In
the house enmity, his ways, his ways all in of
falerous snare, the fowler snare. Okay. But the prophet is
my God is with a V freem the watchman of

(01:55:23):
his God. And I trying to remember if there is
I think it was supposed to be a BELLI all
reference in here, and I'm not good at catching them
because the language looks different, So let me personally pull
them up to look good. Is it the fowler? I
think it is the Fowler's snare, but hold on a moment.
Technical difficulties. Play the elevator music. Appy, that's jeopardy? What's

(01:55:47):
elevator music? That's it's you're breaking up. I'm going to
all right, go ahead. Uh so I might not be
able to find it, just because I'm really bad at
this job and no one should turn trust mythings. Maybe
it was just mistama And here anyway, reason for you
if you'd like to see if you can find belly
on there, because if I found it at one point,
I didn't maintain it. I like, look through the words,

(01:56:12):
Well I think, yeah, I think this is specifically talking
about Mystama, and I just have my notes a little weird.
Oh yeah, this wasn't the passage about Mystama. I'm just
bad at paying attention to the words that we were Like,
I thought I was still talking about blile, but it
turns out I was not. Yeah. Well, oh the reason
I thought it was because Mustama is another It's used
as a synonym for blile and inter testamental literature. Oh,
I get it. I can't one of us needs to

(01:56:33):
pay attention to what I'm saying because it's not me. Well,
I'm definitely not paying attention to what you're saying that
everyone needs to appreciate that my birds are wearing these
little flower hats, little flo hat. So there's that artist
does lots of mugs with like one of those is
a pineapple I think of thought, or is it it's
like a prickly Yeah. I think some of the things

(01:56:53):
the artist does is like fruit stacked on heads. The
idea is things balanced on heads, which I think is
just heads of vantas heads animals. That's Lampoor. We also
have to see, sorry, switching back to the show, we
also see Mestema showing up as Prince Mastema in Jubilees.
And then we have the concept of the watchers that
show up in Daniel four. If you could pull that

(01:57:14):
passage up four mean Daniel four, that was you know,
that was free. I read Daniel a bazillion times growing up,
and it wasn't until after I had read Enoch that
I noticed that the Watchers was a thing. Yeah, Daniel,
because look, some things if you don't have a frame
of romans for you just kind of gloss over them.
Starting in verse ten, the visions of my head as
I lay in bed were these I saw and behold

(01:57:35):
a tree in the midst of the earth, and its
height was great. That is not the watchers are going
to come. Yeah, truth verse thirteen. I saw in the
visions of my head, thank you as I lay in bed,
and behold a watcher, A holy one came down from heaven.
So one thing that happened is I copied down a
lot of references, and as I was going back through
and looking at them, some of them were wrong, like
a weird amount of them. And I don't know if

(01:57:56):
the references I was given and things were wrong and
I had to find them right, or I'm just really
bad at numbers. Where did you get the references multiple
different sources? Okay, so it's probably the common denominator is me.
But whatever, Oh you know, Actually, sorry, I'm shouting. I
got a lot of my So this is probably I
got a lot of my sources from Jewish people, and
I think their first numbers in the Jewish Bible is

(01:58:17):
a little bit different. Oh that off by a couple
of verses. That's I'm not stupid. So what I'm hearing
is the Jews tried to choose sabotage to try to
sabotage this episode because they worship demons, is right, Yeah, uh,
nocause their vampires. Because your mom's a vampire, because she's
ten percent. Yes, yes, I'm sorry mom. Oh my goodness, gracious. Yeah.

(01:58:39):
So Verse seventeen also references to watchers. But you've already
stop sharing some time. Well, and know it's fine, because
I just wanted to see my face again. Well, I mean,
that's fair. But verse what seventeen seventeen. Yeah, the sentenced
three of the watchers the decision by the word of
the Holy Ones to the end that the living may
know that the Most High rules the kingdom of men

(01:59:00):
to whom he will, and says over at the low
least of men. So the watches the Holy Ones, like
Daniel does, is the watchers the Holy Ones. The watch
is the Holy Ones like they are before. Because another
Holy Ones's reference this dream, I King Nebukitdnezzer saw, and
you about the Shazzar, which is Daniel, tell me the interpretation,
because all the wise men of my kingdom are not
able to make known to me the interpretation. But you

(01:59:21):
are able, for the spirit of the Holy God Gods
is in you. And I think what he's saying is
the Almighty God over the other gods who are holy,
who are set apart. Now, King Abakanizer famously not necessarily
known for his good theology, right, so he might have
been saying holy gods when he should have been just
saying holy God. But it is interesting. It seems like

(01:59:42):
this is the outsider looking in view, which gives you
an insight as to how the culture was perceived. That
maybe this could be stretching, but it could be that
like the outsider looking in as understanding well, that the
Jewish people recognize that there are these other gods pointed
over nations by God, and then there's a God over
them who is the one who made them interesting? Interesting? Unknown?

(02:00:05):
But these watchers is the same class of angel that
is featured in intertestamental literature that talks about Genesis six.
So there's that connection there. And then yeah, and we've
got bal Zebub, who is the god of Ekron in
Diesel Bub Diesel Bub anyway, Deep Deep cut from the

(02:00:28):
show which a couple of years ago, I think it was.
It was the Okay, it was a unhinged episode of
the old version of Over and it was about the
Olympic Paris Olympics. Oh you know, opening ceremonies, and one

(02:00:49):
guy who did a TikTok he was like, this thing
looks like a bee? Could it be? Beesel? It was
so retarded, it was so dumb. But every time I
think of like, I think, I swear there's like a

(02:01:12):
class of TikToker who just they didn't even read the
entire AI overview before making there couldn't be And I
will be shamelessly use those videos, don't get me wrong.
It was the way he said it was just like
I hope there's somebody listening who's like, I remember this
episode any way he said it was it was like

(02:01:34):
could it be? I need to go back and watch
that now. I was bad. I did not keep up
with the Unhinged because for a long time I wasn't
even subscribe to me. I mean, well it wasn't mine
at the time. Yeah, listenn't like a dispensed until she
was got out. I did listen. I just was also

(02:01:54):
really going through a crime talky era and I was
listening to True Crime Campfire and like, there's a lot
of my ears don't have a lot of time. So anyway,
so above and that's hyphenated, so but all Zebub. She
shows up in Second Kings one two. Now at Haaiah
fell for the lattice in his upper chamber in Samaria
scale issue I'd like to put out, and they sick.

(02:02:15):
So he sent messengers telling them go in quire of
bail Zebub, the God of Akron, whether I shall recover
from the sickness. In the Old Testament, not only were
the Jewish people kept sequestered from I love how I
put sequester twice in my nose. I'm just still get
this guy as sequester the questions sequested. They were vario
from the religions and practices around them, or they were

(02:02:37):
supposed to be in practice. It didn't pirau, but that
was how God set it up. Like you were not
supposed to be like them, do not emulate their practices,
kill them, kill. But they also had the glory Cloud
in their midst and later in the temple, the Holy
Spirit residing in the Holy of Holies. So the nations,
the surrounding nations, they belonged to other gods, but the

(02:02:58):
Land of Israel belonged to exclud simply to God Almighty.
I wonder this to me. It seems likely that this
explains why we don't see an abundance of possession in
the Old Testament like we do in the New Now. No, no,
it is important to point out the temple was still there.
Oh wait, sorry, I need you to rewind this thought
thirty seconds. What okay? In the Old Testament, not only

(02:03:22):
where the Jewish people kept the question I put the
quester twice in mint religious and practices around them. They're
supposed to be they didn't. Always God was like, you're
supposed to do this, You're supposed to be fully instead
of a party. Are not supposed to be like them? Yeah.
They also had the Glory Clod in their midst. Later
the Temple where the Holy Spirit resides in the Holy Police.
So we've got the other surrounding nations that was belonged

(02:03:44):
to other gods. That's their preview. But the land of
Israel exclusively is under the dominion and lee, So that's
why they don't have these spirits. So this is very
likely why we don't see the abundance of possession that
we see in the New Testament, because it wouldn't get
anywhere near God's spirit. Like, yes, as long as the
spirit of God was in the midst of Israel, there's
sort of a field of protection. However, I think so

(02:04:06):
we do see, I mean that the temple is still
there in the New Testament times, but the spirit never
the spirit didn't go back into the Second Temple. Yeah,
I was I was gonna ask about that because I
was like, is it just that they're no longer out
of blessings and protections, they're still kind of in punishment,
or is it that the Holy Spirit is not No, Yeah,
the spirit departed Solomon's temple again. Solomon's temple was destroyed,

(02:04:30):
and then they rebuilt a second temple, but we never
see God's spirit go back into it. And that's not
to say that God wasn't present there in a way,
because we see later on where Zachariah goes in to
the most Holy Place and God meets him there and
speaks to him. But it's also God shows up on

(02:04:54):
his own terms. Yeah, it's it's not like, oh, God,
is that is living here? I don't. I don't see
in Bible that there is this this you know, God
actually living there the way that he left. Yeah, well,
the ark of the Covenant, which was God's like footstool,
his mercy seat, or it's gone it's not there as lost. Yeah,

(02:05:14):
So there seems to be a dynamic that has shifted.
And I wonder if the so the blessings from following
God they come with his protection from the demonic, and
the judgment for refusing to God comes with him no
longer protecting you from the demonic. It's like, if you're
gonna worship the demonic, then you're gonna get the demonic. Yeah.
And then we see in the New Testament this proliferation

(02:05:35):
of possession that could be explained also by enemy forces
gathering around a target. So just as the Jews were
aware of the end of the sixty ninth Week and
the promise of becoming Messiah, the spiritual world would have
been as well. They're up to date on the prophecy
and the understanding of prophecy. So there might have been
a ramp up of demonic attack in anticipation to try to, oh,
I don't know, maybe kill the Messiah when he shows up. Sure, well,
there's a lot of like Harod trying to kill all

(02:05:57):
the babies. Yeah. But also I think we posited on
another recent show that because of what Jesus did in
the Realm of the Dead, yes, that there may have
been a and this is just pure theory, pure conjecture,
and maybe I don't believe it anymore. Maybe as I'm
saying it, it doesn't ring true as what much. But

(02:06:18):
the idea that he maybe what he did was so
significant that it had ripple effects through time, so it
would have gone back and forward. You mentioned this, and
I forget if it was the exor system question. Wonder
if it was the soul sleep one. But yeah, the
ghost question, the yeah, sorry, this is the exist question. Yeah,

(02:06:39):
I know what's going on. It's one of them. I
think it was probably ghost one. Yeah, but I do
wonder because we start to see more demonic understanding, more
development of the worldview around demonic stuff in the Intertestamental period.
And I think this is again putting the cart before
the horse, where people say, well, it's because they developed
this demonology because they were in Babylon and they were

(02:07:00):
exposed to these beliefs and so they adopted them. And
it's like, well, no, they were no longer under God's protection.
All of a sudden, they're experiencing this for the first time,
or not the first time, but like they're actually fully
like they're experiencing it as opposed to just getting about it.
And now you're seeing all these people being like, okay,
now we have to understand what these things are when
you have to learn how to exercise them, this new problem.
And that's why by the time you reach Jesus showing up,

(02:07:22):
it's you could throw a cat and hit a demoniac
and Jesus was casting them out. It was like the
one of the most yeah, commonly things that he did,
like his mark of authority seemed first and foremost to
be that he was a successful exorcist. But also that
like this is just taken for granted at this point
in time. It's just like yeah, yeah, like gu's possessed,

(02:07:44):
Like right right now. I had planned in this show,
this episode to cover intertestamental stuff other Jewish demonology, but
I have about four and a half pages of that,
so I'm thinking we need to break here. What you
mean this might end up being a three part episode. Okay,

(02:08:05):
it really depends because the way I have things set
up this is just like spoilers for you all, is
that after we cover intertestamental Jewish demonology, exorcisms such like that,
we'll get to all the references to exorcisms in the
New Testament, which will take home for long it takes.
I don't have a lot of notes flashed out about that.
I just kind of want to talk about some of
my thoughts and then look at all the instances and
kind of pull what we can from there. But then

(02:08:26):
if I get time for it, I will talk about
some Catholic approaches to exorcism. And it's not just in
the framework of Catholicism, but just like how after Jesus
returned to Heaven in his glorified body, how demonology and
exorcisms have changed over time and developed over time and
become what we see today. Okay, that sounds so fun.

(02:08:47):
I think you're right that now is the time to
close this episode, so we will see you later. Thank
you for tuning in, and good night. The Wood

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