The Ghost Question, Part One

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:50):
Hello, and welcome to another episode of Alternatively. I haven't
made the thumbnail, so I don't remember what episode it is.
This is, oh, this is eighteen, or it's an episode
it is episode number it's episode number sixteen, I think. Okay, okay, yes,
So this is the ghost question, which is the follow

(01:12):
up to the soul sleep question. Liz has been presenting
some thoughts and research and ideas on what happens after
you die that she began the biblical framework for yes
with the soul stup questions. So if you haven't watched
that and you care about there being a biblical coal
foundation for your ghost theories, go watch that first. But yes, yes, okay,

(01:39):
And what else was I gonna say no? Because we
aren't saving the videos for the end. We're sprinkling them
through so I don't have to tease that for the end.
I was worried that you guys weren't going to watch
till the end. Sometimes people don't do that, and we
were going to do the like good fun videos at
the end, which some read maybe some of them will
be at the end depending. I'm trying to send some

(02:00):
of my videos because I saved them to my phone,
like years ago. I'm trying to send them to EBB
over a messenger, and all of a sudden they're deciding
that they're not going to send. So two might not
make it on the show. We'll see the rest have
sent yet. So let's just put it this way. If
you were tempted to stop watching this episode before the end,
you're probably gonna miss the best part, the ones that

(02:21):
the Internet doesn't want you to see. Yeah, okay, do
you want to pray? You want me to pray? How
about you your prayer? Doylad, thank you so much for
this day. I pray that you'd help us as we
tackle this particularly spiritually touchy topic. I is maybe how
I would put it. I pray that you would keep
us in the light and keep us from becoming frightened

(02:45):
and just on the paths of truth, on the paths
of good, good faith, speculation in your name, amen, Amen? Okay,
So it helps if I pull minutes. I did want
to say because there were a couple of things that
came to mind during the week after I recorded this

(03:10):
whole sleep thing. So we talked a lot about the
parable of Lazarus and the rich man. Oh you're making
your tiny sweater hat sock. What was that sock? It's
probably one of your videos that I went through. There's
still loading of man, but yeah, hopefully we'll see I'm
going to mute the computer, but I like the computers
that way. If I continue to get notifications it's needed.

(03:31):
It was not one of the loading of man. But
remind me to turn the computer sound back on when
I actually play the videos or else that they will
be muted. Oh uh yeah, let me just pencil that
into my schedule because I have a feeling I want
to forget. That would be catastrophic if if none, because
no one in chat can tell us right. Ye, we'll

(03:54):
be very very vigilant about that. Yes, reach out through
time Chat and tell us if for not doing it right. So, yeah,
there were a couple things that came up in the
week after I recorded the first one, this whole sleep one,
because we talked a lot about the rich Man and
Lazareth that parable, and I was trying to like kind
of explain some thoughts about parables, and then my pastor

(04:15):
preached on parables. Oh he didn't preach on that one,
but he preached on parables in general and other specific
ones and he was pointing out, I forget I think
it's Mark four. Jesus even literally says something about I'm
gonna quote it wrong. But basically what he was kind
of talking about, his parables were designed to filter the audience.

(04:35):
So for those who were seeking the truth, they unlocked
the truth for them, they learned something from them. And
for those who had their eyes opposed to the truth,
opposed to God, they made it impenetrable to them. They
hid the truth from them. Ah. And then I happened
to turn on my radio and all my presets everyone

(04:56):
was talking. So I was like skimming the channels for music.
Came across the channel that was playing Alistair Beg. He
wasn't singing, he was talking. But what caught me is
he was talking about that parable, the one the Lazarus
and stuff, and he was saying he was approaching it
from people were kind of taking it. There's that verse
where like and then the angels came and took Lazarus
to Abraham's bosom, And he was talking about how people

(05:17):
will base off of that one verse the belief that
this is what angels do. And he's like, well, actually
that is in reference to like second Temple writing from
Jewish like beliefs that had grown up extra biblically. So
it wasn't that Jesus was saying this is exactly what happens.
He was building a parable to confront the Pharisees using
a framework that they would understand like, okay, this is

(05:39):
what happens in your framework. So more more, I would
say proof, but more reason to be like, let's not
build our entire doctrine off of this thing. That's right, right,
that's beside the point. And to anyone who's like, what
are you talking about, I promise going forward, you don't
have to have watched The Soul Sleep Question episode two.

(06:01):
Get this one. I do think it gives you some
helpful context, especially if you're like I would need to
believe this in order to move on to this next thing.
But you can. You can listen to this one with
that bye b But but I just I do not
recommend you listening to the other one when you get
a chance, because it was fun to do, and I
think it's fake fans trying to skip episodes. Come on, yes,

(06:22):
come on, And as if you're watching this and you're like,
this is all bunk, because goes not real because people
go straight to heaven after they die. I do recommend
you watching them one first, and then you'll see where
I'm coming from logically, why I'm building from this point
to this point. And and as I did mention at
the end of the soul sleep episode, even if the
souls of all the Christians goes great to heaven and

(06:43):
the souls of the unregistered remain in torment and hades
as they wait the final resurrection and judgment, it still
works for this discussion. So it's very inclusive. If you will,
if you will, we love, We love inclusivity, inclusivity, diversity
is our strength and all all of that. I am
I serial kill everyone. I am not discriminatory. Nobody clipped

(07:06):
that this is not a confession of anything. Okay, So
we know, first of all, Biblically, we know that there
is a spiritual world that exists outside our general ability
to see it. For instance, let's go to Ephesian six
ten to twelve. That's oh, were there notes with links
in them? Yes, I sent them to you. I should

(07:26):
have clarified that there's not a ton of there's more
than I'm thinking. There's a few links. Hang on, hang
on pause everything, okay Egian six ten to twelve, and
then I'll pull up the other links. We were so
focused on pulling up the videos, yes, that I didn't

(07:47):
even think to be like, there are other things. Okay,
go ahead, Finally, be strong in the Lord and in
the strength of his might. Put on the whole armor
of God, that you may be able to stand against
the schemes of the devil. For we do not wrestle
against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities,
against the cosmic powers over this present darkness, against the
spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly places. So right

(08:09):
away we know there's not just one kind of my
takeaway at the way of interprety, this is not just
one kind of spiritual stuff. So we know first of
all from the first two verses that this is not
flesh and blood stuff. This is all in verse twelve,
all spiritual things. Okay, So we've got rulers, we've got authorities,
we've got cosmic powers over this present darkness, and spiritual

(08:30):
forces of evil. This could be all talking about the
same thing, and he's just like repeating himself to make
a point. But there's Also I didn't I didn't add
the verse to it, but there's the verse about like principalities.
Or maybe it's a different translation of this verse, maybe
it is. Anyway, I've heard people argue that there's, like
I think it's Vicky joy Anderson will argue that there's
like lower level demons and then there's really high level
ones that we never interact with them, We actually don't

(08:52):
have authority over them. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes, yeah,
like her the idea of different orders, yes, the kind
of it's it's kind of a Catholic understanding of demons
of like there's there's cardinals, and there's the pope, and
that there's different levels of that's not kinds of demons
that leadership, but but no at all in the same

(09:18):
way that there's different levels of power in the Catholic Church,
there's different levels of power in the demonic realm. I
think I think that that was maybe not like an
explicit oh, the demonic realm must be organized the way
that we have our human beings organized. But I think
that it was kind of an assumption that has crossed

(09:38):
over that they are probably organized similar to how we
are organized. As far as different levels of power, we
tend to put things in the framework with which we operate,
So we tend to assume, you know, if I'm used
to there being a president, then there's got to be
like a president of the demons, right, so to speak.
And there we do know that they're different types of things,

(10:02):
Like Jesus said, Oh, this kind can only come out
by prayer and fasting, which which tends to imply that
some are stronger than others. But I don't know if
it's necessarily stronger or just different types have different holds
or something. Yeah, I'm gonna go ahead and try to
I'm still paying attention to my own show. I'm just
trying to resend these two videos to see if that'll
get them to send. But the other thing I was

(10:22):
thinking is what was it in reference to are we
so lost? Ten minutes into our show? No? So? And
we don't have to like break down all of this.
I I put that in there just as like a
scent to set the background that there are different kinds

(10:46):
potentially of Oh, I remember my point. So the regular angels,
the Bible seems to distinguish. There's the ophinum, the seraphim,
the cherubim is that the only IM's is there one other?
I wasn't familiar with oafman on it. I believe the wheels,
the wheels with eyes, Nope, those are trebon, they are okay,
So often it might be extra biblical. Okay, But basically

(11:08):
there's the idea that there's there's different roles because the
word angel is messenger is my understanding. Yeah, so I
think the idea is some people will talk about like
elementals and different so like different hauntings that happen from

(11:28):
like evil spirits, because they each have their different talents.
And I think we're blittering the point. But yeah, okay,
so then let's pull up second King six. This is
another example of spiritual stuff happening outside are our viewpoint?
Not not different tears? Oh okay, if you go down
a bit, I'm trying to remember it. It's I didn't

(11:48):
mark the verse, but it'll be marked by the top
thingy thingy, Yes this one. Okay. So once when the
king of Syria was warring against Israel, he took counsel
with his servants, saying, at such and such a place
shall be my camp. But the man of God sent
word to the King of Israel, beware that you do
not pass this place for the Syrians, or going down there.
Heel sent to the place about which the Man of
God told him. Thus he used to warn him so

(12:10):
that he saved himself there more than once or twice.
And the mind of the King of Syria was greatly
troubled because of this thing. And he called to servants
and said to them, will you not show me who
of us is for the King of Israel. Oh, he
assumes that there's a spy, yes, okay. And one of
his servants said, no, my lord, o king. But Elijah,
the prophet who's in Israel, tells the King of Israel
the words that you speak in your bedroom. Cray. He said,

(12:33):
go and see where he is, that I may send
and seize him. It was told him, behold, he is
in Dothan. So he sent their horses and chariots in
a great army, and they came by night and surrounded
the city. Can you squirrel a bit more? When the
servant of the Man of God rose early in the
morning and went out, behold, an army with horses and
chariots was all around the city. And the servants said,
a last, my master, what shall we do? He said,
do not be afraid, for those who are with us

(12:53):
are more than those who are with them. Then Elishah
prayed and said, oh, Lord, please open his eyes that
he may see. So the Lord opened the eyes of
the young man, and he saw and behold the mountain
was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.
And when the Syrians came down against him, Elisha prayed
to the Lord and said, please strike this people with blindness.
And it goes on. But the idea is these they
didn't just suddenly come into being. They have been there.

(13:15):
There is like a rich spiritual world that happens that
we just don't see. What I just couldn't see it. Yeah, okay,
there's a lot of also, just in terms of like
ignoring dimensional stuff, because I've heard it being like, oh,
they're just in another dimension. I think that my understanding
is there's a vast section of the spectrum of light
that we humans don't see. So it's like they don't

(13:36):
even have to be in a different dimension. They just
have to maybe I don't know, reflect outside of the
spectrum of light that we're able to see, and it
could be both, right, because sometimes the idea of something
that's extra dimensional doesn't mean it's not visible to us,
but just that only a part of it is visible
to us in the way that like you would if
a cube came down into a flat plane, it would

(13:59):
it would only be does a line or something like
that that you wouldn't see all of it. I could
be saying that wrong, but that sounds right. You would
perceive it very differently than it actually is, in a
much more limited way, and it would be very mysterious.
But also it could be the part that you could
even perceive might also be outside of the realm of

(14:19):
light that you're able to see, and so it could
be both things at the same time, which that would
almost I don't know if it quite shoves in there,
but like when you see a specter and apparition, you know,
according to the tails, and it's not fully there, but
it's like maybe all of a sudden, somehow it is
sort of refracting some of our light right by accident
or on purpose or some certain conditions. Yeah, yeah, atmospheric conditions.

(14:43):
And then okay, so we're going to talk about is
there a biblical case for ghosts and also underneath that
kind of pairing along with but going on its own
different theories about ghosts. But in answer to the is
there a biblical case for ghost let's lookt two things.
There's only one that I put in A link in
for the other one I put in and you'll just

(15:04):
be able to look up yourself. It's it's not a
big deal if we don't read it. So luke twenty four.
And I didn't put the first number because I'm opposed
to helping myself out in any way, shape or form.
So let's see, I'm going to just pull up on
my page and oh, oh, it's because it's starting at
verse one, I believe. Okay, yes, we're gonna see. Yeah,

(15:27):
it's so. But on the first day of the week,
at early dawn, they went to the tomb. This is
the ladies taking the spices they had prepared, and they
found the stone rolled away from the tomb. But when
they went in, they did not find the body of
the Lord Jesus. While they were perplexed about this, behold
two men stood by them in dazzling apparel, and as
they were frightened and bowed their faces to the ground,
the men said to them, why do you seek the

(15:47):
living among the dead. He is not here, but has risen.
Remember how he told you while he was still in Galilee,
that the son of Man must be delivered into the
hands of sinful men and be crucified on the third day.
And on the third day rise you scrolled just a
little bit, and they remembered his words, and returning from
the tomb, they told all these things to the eleven
and to all the rest. Now it was Mary Magdalene
and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and the

(16:09):
other women with them who told these things to the apostles.
But these words seemed to them an idle tale, and
they did not believe them. And maybe I was supposed
to scroll more? Can you scroll down a little bit more?
I'm going to try to find on my page I
really should have written down. This is bad, badless bad. Oh,
it's a verse thirty six. Jesus appears to his disciples.
Oh okay, so let's see. As they were talking about

(16:31):
these things, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them,
peace to you. But they were startled and frightened, and
thought they saw a spirit and a lot of translations
that will say ghost, and he said to them, why
are you troubled? And why do your doubts arise in
your heart? See my hands and my feet. That is
that it is I myself. Touch me and see. For
a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you
see that I have. So right away we see, okay,

(16:51):
there is a spirit world, whether it's ghost as we
conceive them, or just a spirit that could appear, because
otherwise Jesus would be like, I'm not a spirit. Spirit's
not real, right. Yeah. He he proves that he's not
a spirit by saying, touch my flesh and bone and
give me something to eat, as opposed to guys ghosts. Sorry,
stop it. Yeah. There's also when he comes walking across

(17:15):
the water. That's the other one that I had that
I don't put the verse in, but going okay, yeah,
they also are afraid it's a ghost, and he also
doesn't say guys go. So it does create a little
confusion that some translations will literally say ghost, because then
you assume, oh, the Bible is talking about specifically a ghost.
I would be curious to see if it's the same word.
I didn't think to look this up. If it's the

(17:36):
same word used for like the life leaving a body,
that sort of thing that's worth looking into in my
next follow up episode. But the idea at least that
there is some conception in that culture of spirits showing
up to people and that's an actual thing that Jesus
doesn't deny. Okay, So looking at different theories, the first theory,
and this is the one I've always believed and that

(17:56):
has always been told to me, is that demons are ghosts,
Like ghosts are demons. It's not the dead aren't appearing.
You know, demons will show up and they'll pretend to
be the dead. Like there's a lot of cases where
they'll you know, masquerade for some reason to lead to
what's the word possession? But are they now before we
even talk, what is your opinion on the ghosts or demons?

(18:19):
I was taught that so much that I never questioned
it until the Nephlum discourse came around, And then the
Nephilin discourse was all they're the departed spirits of the
nephil or the Yeah, the spirits of the Nephilum. They're
not just any ghosts, but they are ghosts of the
Nephlum and that's what demons are. So it's like almost

(18:42):
a flip side of like not ghosts or demons, but
demons are ghosts. Oh yeah, yeah. And I was all
about that for a while, and then I got to
the point where I was like, this isn't sitting right
in my spirit. I don't think that this is true.

(19:02):
Nephelin became Tartaria and flat Earth in terms of like
this giant everything. Yeah, and then kind of like you're
not allowed to question it or you are simultaneously a
bad conspiracy theorist and a bad Christian. Even though it's
not actually biblical, it's always been extra biblical. As a Christian,
you should be able to question anything that's not in

(19:23):
the Bible. I am to the point where when when
Jesus is casting out a demon, when the Bible says
it's a demon, I think it's a demon. I don't
think it's secretly a ghost. I think it's a demon
from the demonic realm. And Satan is their father and
all of that. Like, I don't see the biblical basis.
And I've talked about this before, the biblical basis for

(19:44):
them them being the ghost of the nephluin. But when Jesus,
when we hear Jesus saying or God saying in his word,
they thought it was a spirit that heavily implies, and
he doesn't just say it once, it's several different times
heavily implies that a spirit does exist, and in both cases.

(20:06):
In this one's more clear, it seems to be that
they thought they were seeing the ghost of Jesus. That
that they did at least they don't even in ghosts.
But I could be wrong. So here's an interesting thing
about the whole demon discourse thing is that what is
translated as demon is a word that means unclean spirit.

(20:29):
H My understanding is there's nowhere in the Bible that
actually tells you a demon is a fallen angel, right,
So a demon is a thing. It's something that is
translated as demon. Like we have this conception we all know,
like we can quibble over in the name, but like
this unclean spirit that possesses people. But and I do
need to do in in my next episode that I'm

(20:50):
we're going to talk about ecritcisms. I will dig more
into what the Bible says about demon's slush, unclean spirits
et cetera. Right when I did my research, and I
can't remember how much of it actually made it into
the episode and how much I had to cut out,
But I think this part made it in where it
doesn't say that they're fallen angels, but it does make

(21:10):
it really clear that beel Zebub is their father. Yes,
that they're not. Like there, I think it seemed clear
that they're not. They're not human spirits. So pushback on that, okay,
because even so, like Abraham is our father, because he's

(21:31):
our spiritual father. Oh, I see. So even if you're
trying to say all these people are ghost who died
unclean like the unclean spirit in this case literally meaning
spirit of someone who is unclean their spiritual father, would
still be bills about because they died serving it. Sure.
The other thing I will add that is not a pushback,
it's just an addition is that each time that the
disciples think that they're seeing a spirit when it's actually Jesus,

(21:52):
they are afraid. They're not. Oh it's Jesus. Ghosts come
to visit and comfort us. They are afraid as if
it is an evil thing. Whatever it is that is
showing up, whatever spirit means in the Bible, it's not
a good thing. Yeah, at the very least, it's like
a fearful thing. I guess they are people in the Bible.
They are afraid when they see good angels as well.
So it's not necessarily that they necessarily believe it's evil,

(22:15):
but they certainly something that frightens them. Angels are definitely
awesome in the old tones of the Word of like
awe inspiring, where you know that they're good but they're dangerous,
and they're like, yeah, I think it's fear fear inspiring
because it's just so outside of your realm of understanding.
There's another one, and maybe you're going to get to it,
maybe not. Where Peter is released from prison by an angel. Oh,

(22:37):
and he shows up. This is an axe, you can
look it up. It's an early ACX. He shows up
at the church where they're praying for they're literally praying
that he'll be released from prison. And he shows up
at the door and the servant girl is like, he's
at the door. She meets him at the door and
then doesn't let him in. Yeah, but runs back and
tells everybody, guys, he's free. He's at the door, and

(22:58):
they're like, it's his ghost. Yeah, we should. I will
look it up while you're talking. I also love how
like to me, that's my most It annoys me the
most in the Bible of like if you're so excited
that he's here, Like what if there's guards like right
behind him, freaking open the door before you run off
and leave him. Master your emotions, ma'am. It's not that bad.

(23:21):
It is really funny because she's just so excited that
she just runs off and leaves them. But I do remember,
I'm glad that you brought that up because I had
not thought to put that in my notes, because I
believe they like actually think, oh he's like dead and
that's his ghost, which is a like a more clear
cut yes one. So yeah, go ahead and keep going in.
So what I was gonna say, I'm not gonna I
don't have to show it on screen just because you're

(23:42):
distracted pulling stuff up and it's just one verse. My
my one case in aporting Ford now, without having done
a ton of research, is that demon's slush. Unclean spirits
are something, whether they're the spirits of dead people or not,
there's something other than fallen angels. Some other thing because,
in Jude's says, and the angels who did not stay
within their own position of authority but left their proper dwelling,

(24:05):
he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until
the judgment of the Great Day. This to me, I mean,
it is just one verse. So building a lot on it,
you know, there's a room for a lot of misunderstanding,
but it to me, it seems indicated. We'll hold a second.
The angels are kept in eternal chains, they're not able
to do the things that these people are, these spirits
are doing, so something else is going on. So we're

(24:29):
gonna just I mean, Abby doesn't have to be on
board with this, but the way I'm presenting this is
with the understanding that whatever this is, it's not fallen angels,
and we are going to discuss what the role of
fallen angels are potentially in another episode. But just no,
I am I am on board because I think there's
a secret third thing. Like the binary that was set
up was it's demons are either fallen angels or they

(24:52):
are the ghosts of the Nephilim who couldn't go anywhere,
and there's no third thing. And I think the third
thing is there's a there. There are creatures called demons.
There are unclean spirits in the spiritual realm that are
just another type of thing. They're not angels, but they're

(25:13):
also not ghosts. But I'm willing, I'm willing to be
open to it, and they can be ghosts without the
being ghosts of the nephilin which is I think the
specific thing that was sitting wrong with me was every
single Nephilm that was ever born is a demon. What
if it's just the ghost of all the animals. So

(25:37):
if you abused Fido, then he comes back and he
haunts you. Just so, did you find the versus? Sorry,
yet I was still looking. It wasn't as early in acxis.
I know you're it's going to be. I will wait
to bring up my next point just because it will
require the screen. But that's okay. In the meantime, I

(25:57):
can filibuster. I did have later my notes. It's it's
worth bringing it now. So let me just scroll to
find that one thing that I brought up is the
idea of elementals. Oh oh, okay, go ahead that well, no, no,
then we can bring that up later. And that's when
it comes sequentially, Let's do your thing first. Okay. So
I actually was wrong. That never happens. Okay. So when

(26:20):
Peter came to himself, okay, hey, now, when Herod was
about to bring him out, this is Act twelve. On
that very night, Peter was sleeping between two soldiers, bound
with two chains and guarding the present, and behold, an
angel of the Lord stood next to him in a
light shone in the cell. He struck Peter on the
side and woke him, saying, which okay again this this

(26:43):
says that that that an angel has a physical reality
physically interact with your physicality. The angel is not simply
a spirit, but the angel is hitting the side that
spirit can like in Star Trek with the holographs being
also able to take on physical form. Sure fear is outside.

(27:04):
Sure yeah, sit next to him in a light shone
on the skull. He struck Peter on the side and
woke him, saying, get up quickly. And the chains fell
off his hands, and the angel said to him, dress
yourself and put on your sandals. And he did so.
And he said to him, wrap your cloak around you
and follow me. And he went out and followed him.
He did not know what was being done by the
He did not know that what was being done by
the angel was real, but thought he was seeing a vision.

(27:26):
When they had passed the first and the second guard,
they came to the iron gate leading into the city.
It opened for them off its own accord, and they
went out and went on along one street, and immediately
the angel left him. When Peter came to himself, he said, now,
I am sure that the Lord has sent his angel
and rescued me from the hand of Herod and from
all that the Jewish people were expecting. I know this
is also biblical precedent for doors opening up their own right. Yes,

(27:48):
something in the spiritualm opened that, but he didn't see
directly how the angel did it, or if it was
an accomplished angel age. When he realized this, he went
to the Mary, the mother of John, whose other name
was Mark, where many were gathered together and were praying.
And when he knocked at the door of the gateway,
a servant girl named Rhoda came to answer. Recognizing Peter's

(28:09):
voice in her joy, she did not open the gate,
but ran in and reported that Peter was standing at
the gate they said to her, you were out of
your mind, but she kept insisting that it was so,
and they kept saying it is his angel, so not
his ghost. I was wrong about that it is his angel.
I think it depends on the translation. It's ax was
X twelve fifteen. I want to look up the original word.
But Peter continued knocking, and when they opened they saw

(28:31):
him and were amazed. But motioning to them with his
hand to be silent, he described to them how the
Lord had brought him out at the prison and he said,
tell these things to James and to the brothers. Then
he departed and went to another place. So there's whatever here.
They're not scared of it. They're not scared of it
like a ghost, but they are saying it's something. She

(28:52):
ran away in her joy, so she wasn't thinking it was.
So this is an interesting I like this ties by
into sorry did I cut off for your thumb. This
ties back into the what we talked about in the
Soul Sleep episode of people when they die, some people
believe they turn to angels. This translation thing might actually
cause people to believe that. So angel in the Bible

(29:13):
is not actually a category of spiritual being. This is
actually something that trips of a lot of people. It
actually just means a messenger. Now, often it is correct
to assume the angelos, which is the word I don't
know if I'm pronouncing that right, is referring to a
spiritual being and that context will tell you that. But
it also has in a few verses referred to a person.

(29:34):
It just means someone caring forth the message from God.
Can be a servant, pastor prophet, elder. This is why
in Revelation the letters to the angels of the churches,
there is some question of is this the letter to
the leader of the church or is this the letter
to an angel that is in position over the church. Yeah,
this is why it also causes distinction of like a

(29:55):
fallen angel an a I'm phrasing it's from So we're
trying to say a demon is a fallen angel, but
we haven't even classified what angel is, right, So there's
a lot of just base people Baseline tried to. I
think that's what happens when you try to understand stuff
through only the English translations and you're not going back
and looking with your original like just saying because then

(30:18):
you can compound arrows on arrows, right, and there's it
doesn't help too that there's a whole bunch of kind
of euphemistic type of things, yes, that are used to
refer to these different spiritual beings, because sometimes it's angel
and sometimes it's sons of God, or sometimes it's an
angel of the Lord, or sometimes it's messengers, and sometimes
it's like like senses wins or like there's a bunch

(30:44):
of different and it depends on like if it's a
more poetic passage or not. Right, they're they're they're described
in so many ways, and I think in part it's
because they are out so outside of our understanding as
a being that is difficult to even like name them correctly. Yeah,
and and God doesn't explicitly lay out so also another

(31:05):
I think this is I'm usually I'm using what's it
called interlinear Bible, So I don't know if this is
referring to which concordance, But the definition list for angelos
also includes a thing or event carrying forth a message
from God, i e. Hardship or an animal like the
donkey or the locusts. Oh, so it's a very broad category. Yeah,

(31:27):
so that's worth just more deep diving did you have
more you wanted to say about that passage we read
that is it's so weird because they're using it as
a dismiss dismisser like if they thought it was a
messenger from God regarding Peter, like his angel, they wouldn't
be like, oh, we're just gonna leave him knocking. So
something about the way that they perceived what that thing

(31:48):
was his angel. Yeah, they're like, oh, this is just
an apparition that looks like him and sounds like him,
but isn't him, And we're just going to leave it alone.
Not that they are necessarily scared of it, but they're like, oh,
it's just his angel, and that that is weird. The
dismissiveness is weird about it. And I don't know if
it's like because they they would have said it is

(32:09):
an evil thing, but we're not afraid of it because
we're in prayer. Because angel can also mean demon in
terms of like messenger for evil. But sar going in yeah.
So but then it kind of goes back to the
Guardian Angel that verse there the the children their angels
always see my face yea in heaven, and so if

(32:29):
they're saying it's his guardian angel outside. But then why
would that be a dismissive like, oh, it's just his
guardians because your angel failed, so obviously we don't want
to talk to him anymore. And maybe it's like, well, yeah,
of course his his angel is here, we're praying for him. Yeah,
So going back to something you said originally, it could

(32:51):
I wouldn't build an entirely system off this, but it
could be implying that there is just like a normal
understood after someone dies, their their spirit, their shade just
appears for a bit and even gives tidings like his
angel giving message of his being killed, and like we
don't really want to talk to it because we don't
want to hear that he died, right, I don't know, Yeah,
that the dismissedness is so weird, like that there's such

(33:12):
a disconnect in that whole experience. And to be fair,
like the early church was going through a lot, right
right then, James, I believe, had just been killed, like
in the Yeah, a major leader of the church. I
think it was James had just been killed in like
the chapter prior, and then a couple of times prior
to that, Steven had been killed. So like they're really
going through it. Yeah, so I can. I can understand,

(33:33):
like you said, like we don't want to talk to
it and have it confirmed that he's dead, like yeah,
preferred to just keep praying. It Also could be that
they're not dismissing in terms of like, oh, we don't
want to talk to this, but like, don't get your
hopes up. It's it's not him. He's not free, it's
just his angel. Hmm. I don't know. Yeah, but then

(33:53):
they like he keeps pounding on the door. It's so funny,
and maybe they assume that like, if it's his angel
and it wants to talk to us, it'll just come in.
We don't have to. Oh, we don't have to open
for it. Yeah, we can stay hunger. That might be it. Also,
I don't know what it's from, but this is the
thing that gets referenced a lot of like it's almost
like we can still hear him sometimes dead. At some point,

(34:18):
maybe I'll bring it up now, yeah, and then we
can get to it. Do you remember In a Severe
Mercy by Sheldon banow Can Sheldon and his wife were
friends of C. S. Lewis. So this is a book
that it's not by CSLSS, but it contains a bunch
of letters from CSS. I really enjoy it. It's a
story about their marriage and how they Cslis helped lead

(34:39):
them to the Lord. But she dies and he talks
about how for a period of time, I can't remember
how long it was, maybe a month it was, it
was several weeks. I want to say, there was a
period of time where he could physically feel her presence
with him, and then there was a solid moment where
he was like, Okay, she's gone now. And he was

(35:01):
saying in the book that like she was a Christian,
she was going to heaven, but there was a period
of time where she was kind of allowed to be
there with him, comforting him until it was it was
time for her to move on. And I think about
that sometimes because he spoke it so confidently and it
wasn't it. I think the thing that made me the

(35:23):
most convinced by his account was that there was a
clear line where he was like, she was here, now
she has gone. He's at least convinced of what he's saying. Right. Also,
it does beg the question of like, if you have
someone who's died and you can resuscitate, Like someone who
says someone who's died in cold water can be resuscitated.
I think it's like up to eleven minutes after they die. Right,

(35:45):
So it's like, Okay, do we humans have the physical
capability of yoinking a soul back from heaven or does
the soul hang out kind of connected to the body
a little bit for a while and have some sort
of awareness and awakening before it, you know, settles into
that slumber. Right. I also just want to say you ink, Well,
it's the same thing with Jesus raising Lazarus of like,

(36:07):
did Jesus bring Lazarus back from heaven? How cruel? Or
did he wake him up? Or did he wake him up?
And then that's the idea of like does it especially
if somebody dies really young and their spirit is really
strong like Sheldon's wife, Yes, it lingers a little longer.
Does it take longer for it to fall asleep? Yeah?

(36:28):
There was one other thing. Oh oh, actually this ties
perfectly into the next thing that we're talking about, because
this is an example in the Bible of a soul
being woken up. Oh potentially potentially first Samuel twenty eight. Okay,
let's talk about this, this one always fascinated me, probably
more than it should have. Yeah, so let's start at
verse three. Now Samuel had died, that's important context. And

(36:49):
all Israel had borned for him and buried him in Rama,
his own city. And Saul had put the mediums and
the necromancers out of the land, as you should have.
The Philistines assembled and came in a camped at Schunhim
and Saul gathered all Israel, and they encamped at Gilboa.
When Saul Saal saw the army of the Philistines, he
was afraid, and his heart trembled greatly. And then and
when Saul inquired of the Lord, the Lord did not

(37:09):
answer him, either by dreams or by urim, or by
the prophets, or by prophets. So in that day, like
you often had God communicating to you through dreams, then
there was a urine the thumbum. And then you also
often had like the prophet who was like and those
the Lord says, we don't have any of these things.
This stays well, okay, people in stall dreams. But anyway,
then Saul said to a servants, seek out for me
a woman who is a medium, that I may go

(37:31):
to her and inquire for I also think it's interesting
it doesn't seem like there's a lot of men who
are mediums. Yes you know that, or he's just like
make her sexy. Also no, no, I think that. I
mean we still recognize this to this day. There's a
lot more female witches. It seems to be something about
the feminine nature that's a bit closer to the spiritual
route female intuition. You hear about male intuition a little

(37:53):
bit more of that sense, So I think probably more often,
although when a man is a witch stock it seems
to be like a much worse thing thing like well,
and you have a lot of witch doctors in like
African culture. Yeah, the darkness seems to be heavier, I
think potentially because like for a woman, you can you
just accidentally run. It's not less of a sin, but

(38:15):
it can be like I think there's a level of
like the man has to make such a deal with
the devil to have that power, whereas a woman I
think can slide into it a lot. Women can can
do it without having to have aided And I believe
like the shamans of witch doctors will do like trances
from mind altering substances in order to I don't know,

(38:36):
I'm not a witch doctor expert, and well, a lot
of the times, like the women will get to that
level as well, and it'll be just as bad. But
I think that there's a little bit more like and
this is potentially this is a whole nother conversation, but
like the idea that women can be more easily deceived.
I think in this spiritual realm they can be approaching
with maybe more pure intentions, thinking they're doing something thing harmless,

(39:00):
whereas for a guy it's like, no, he knows, right,
Whereas I think for men that is the creeping into
deceit can happen more in the physical realm, being led
around by physical things, and so that the male's strength
is a little bit more men or maybe a little
bit more strong with regard to deceat and the spiritual
women women are a little bit more strong with regard

(39:21):
to seat in the physical realm. Or alternatively, what if
the really bad demons are a sexist and won't deal
with women, my goodness, Yeah, so we do have prophets today,
by the way, but not this not the same Like
this is Saul is like certain looking for an answer

(39:44):
from God by these three external means, like he's looking
for a dream, he's looking for your men thumb to
say something. He's looking for the prophet to come to
him and say something. But he doesn't have like God,
he can just pray to and hear something from the
So going back to verse seven, then Paul sorry. Then
Saul said to his servants, seek out for me a

(40:05):
woman who is a medium, that I may go to
her inquire for her. And his servant said to him, behold,
there is a medium at endor. I'm assuming that's this
Star Trek plan, a Star Wars plan. Yeah, every time
I read this, I assume it's the Star Wars planet.
Can you scroll a little bit? So Saul disguised himself
and put on other garments and went he and two
men with him, and they came to the woman by night,

(40:26):
and he said, divine for me by a spirit, and
bring up for me whoever I shall name to you.
The woman said to him, surely you know what Saul
has done, how he has cut off the mediums and
the necromancers from the land. Why then, are you laying
a trap for my life to bring about my death?
But Saul swore to her by the Lord as the
Lord lives, no punishment shall come upon you for this state,
which that is to be clear, This is such a

(40:46):
horrible thing to swear, because God has already said that
being a witch is worthy of this punishment. So he
is trying to swear by the Lord against the Lord. Yeah,
he's using the name of God, like he's swear by
the name of God that he's not going to do
the thing that God told him to do, which is
that's a level of gold. They'd be like, Abby, I
swear by your name that I won't do what you
want me to do. You'd be like, I'm gonna punch

(41:08):
you now, and I've never done that before. Then the
woman said, whom shall I bring up for you? He said,
bring up Samuel for me. You scroll a little bit more.
Every time you asked me to scroll, there's like two
I can see two lines still available. So I'm like, wait,
why do you need me to scroll? Already? I was
gonna I was gonna scroll in ten seconds. Okay. When
the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice.

(41:29):
And the woman said to Saul, why have you deceived me?
You are Saul the King said to her, do not
be afraid. What do you see? And the woman said
to Saul, I see a God coming up out of
the earth. Now, real quick, what that word is, if
I'm correct to worry, is alo him, which is the
word in the Bible that refers to a spiritual being.
So it's it's the Old Testament version of anglos I

(41:52):
think or or whatever. I might be a little bit
wrong on that, but just the idea of there's different
contexts that Ilohim is used, and it does not mean necessarily, yeah,
we can see of us a god. It's it's translated
for those who are just listening as a little g god.
So yeah, it's it seems like throughout the Bible, as
humans are interacting with this world, they have these overarching

(42:12):
terms that they used to apply to these beings angel,
yeah and demon, spirit, and it's unclear what precisely is
meant by some of those words. It would be so
helpful if they just explained everything. The woman said to Saul,
I see a God coming out of the earth. He
said to her, what is his appearance? And she said,

(42:33):
an old man is coming up and he is wrapped
in a rope, so when you die, your clothing will
also also haunt. I'm just kidding, Okay, So the whole
you're going to be raptionally for clothing behind is yeah. Wrong,
you've heard of her, And Saul knew that it was Samuel,
and he bowed with his face to the ground and
paid almond homash. So this is actually Samuel who has appeared.

(42:53):
Then Samuel said to Saul, why have you disturbed me
by bringing me up? So? Who has disturbed myes? Why
have you disturbed? Implies he was resting and harving me
up instead of bringing me down right now, Obviously this
would have been shield because it's prett Jesus and Heaven's stuff.
But still, then Samuel said to Saul, why have you
already read the part? Soul answered, I'm in great distress,

(43:16):
for the Philistines are warring against me, and God has
turned away from me, and this will make him. I'm
the short turn back to you and answers to me
no more, either by prophets or by dreams. Therefore, I
have summoned you to tell me what I shall do.
And Samuel said, why then do you ask me? Since
the Lord has turned from you and become your enemy.
The Lord has done to you as he spoke by me.
For the Lord has torn the kingdom out of your
hand and given it to your neighbor, David, because you

(43:36):
did not obey the voice of the Lord and did
not carry out his fierce wrath against Amelek. Therefore, the
Lord has done this thing to this day. And I
don't need to continue reading, but basically, Saul is told
he's going to die that day, him and his kids.
He does because it's a very serious things. So I
always assumed, and I don't know if I was told
this or if I just thought it was really clever
for coming up with the explanation, but I always assume

(43:58):
that the woman was distressed because she was expecting to
see an actual ghost, like an actual actually Samuel coming
up in place of demons that she normally commune with.
So she's like usually like lying, I guess and being like, yeah,
this is your uncle, and it's just a demon wearing
a hat. Right. But now, as I'm reading this with
the framework that I've kind of already previously done, what

(44:20):
if she was legitimately distressed because she recognized Samuel the
prophet and knew she was busted. Now she was told
to bring up Samuel, so shouldn't it shouldn't be that
much of a surprise that actual Samuel showed up. So
I still understand why I had my previous conclusions. Did Yes?
So okay, if this is conjecture, yes, if you go

(44:46):
to this type of person today, like an actual real one,
which there aren't many. I don't think there's a lot
of fake ones. If there's any, there's not many. And
you could say, I think you call up call up
my friend Samuel, and the idea would be that she's

(45:08):
gonna she might call by a first name, and she
might have no idea who she's calling to, Oh, which Samuel,
But the spirit is going to be like, oh that's
for me. That's clearly for me, because the person I'm
close to is in the room. Oh okay, yeah. So
so the idea would be, she just called up any
you know, she just called Samuel's name. Did he specify

(45:29):
Samuel the prophet? I don't think, so bring up Samuel
for me? Yeah, he just bring up Samuel. And so
when she sees Samuel the high priest, oh, that's like
the only person who's gonna be calling this man up
is Saul. And also like, no one who's going to
call up Samuel is someone that I want to be
caught by, right right, And I think the idea of

(45:52):
like sam Samuel the high priest will probably only come
for Saul. Yeah, he's not gonna just wake up for
Joe Joe calling me Joe. So because the context, now
that I'm reading it too, it does seem to imply
that the presence of Samuel distressed her because it made
her realize that it was Stall in the room. Yeah,

(46:14):
because it was Samuel, not because she actually was like,
oh what actually kind of goes to come on right before, right,
because why would actual ghosts coming up be like, wait,
you're sick, your saw tricked? But yeah, she her immediate
reaction is your soul you've tricked me? Yeah, because this
is Samuel. I understand why through through the lens that

(46:35):
I had, I assumed, you know, she's used to bring
up demons and she wasn't expecting an actual ghost. But
that does seem like it is actually kind of adding on.
Doesn't mean that it's wrong to add on, but you
just have to make sure that that's correct. But it's
it's an add on by people who are seemingly pretty
desperate to dismiss that as evidence that actual ghosts exist

(46:56):
and can be called. And it is also an add
on that does seem to just I'm kind of saying
what you're saying a different wording that seems to refuse
to take that passage of face value of what it's
actually saying. And I do I do more and more.
I'm like, do I really want to be the kind
of person who's like, well, this first isn't actually say
what it literally looks like it's saying. Yeah. Now there's
examples where that's different, where it's like no, but you
can tell Jesus was talking literally, he explains later, or

(47:17):
so figuratively. He explains later that he's talking figuratively. But
I just it is with the Bible, it is hard
to be like, am I I am understanding it a
certain way and to me it seems very clear right,
But I could be one hundred percent wrong. So the
plane reading of the passage is always going to be correct.
Sometimes in order to get the correct plane reading, you

(47:40):
need to make sure you read the full context of
whether it's the whole parable or in the case of
some of Jesus' is like thicker, more difficult to understand teachings.
It's helpful to read the whole account of Jesus and
the whole way that Jesus communicates to understand the flow
and context of how he communicates, and then you're like, oh,
that makes more sense within that context. There's one verse

(48:02):
in John where literally Jesus is like, I'm paraphrasing this.
I have spoken to you in figurative terms, but a
time will come when I will speak plainly or whatever. Yeah,
And it's like, oh, okay, so all these things he
said before that we're really weird. He's just explained, I'm
speaking to your figurative terms, right, gotcha. So the plain
reading of Jesus's words is that sometimes he speaks figuratively
because he said so, because he said that way. Yeah,

(48:25):
Bible is fun.

Speaker 2 (48:26):
I do.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
I do think there's a reason why God didn't make
it so so so easy to understand for even like
a brain dead person without some thinking, because it means
you have to dig in and be like I am,
I am paying more attention so I can understand you, right,
And you have to ask God like he wants you
to ask him. He wants you to be like which
is why I like that God continued to bring things

(48:46):
to your mind about the soul sleep question after you
presented it. And I also love how like they've been
a couple of times where, like I was, a thorny
passage presented itself to me and I was like, Lord,
I don't understand this, and actually the way I'm reading
this makes you seem mean or whatever. Can you explain it?
And then very quickly it's come, whether it's instantly or
the next week, it's like, oh, okay, that makes sense now,
like God will if you are asking in good faith,

(49:08):
if you are not trying to be like the Pharisees
ofleg So would whose wife would he be at? Or yeah?
Or who's whose husband would she be? It doesn't matter.
One weird thing that's been happening with me in my
Bible time lately that I have never at least noticed,
has ever happened before, is that there are some things
that have been coming up for me over and over

(49:28):
and over again that I do not remember asking for interesting,
and so I'm like, but I'm paying attention because it
keeps coming up, But I don't remember asking for this
I don't see. I don't understand why I need this.
I like, cool, what why Why am I being hammered
by this particular factoid when I I don't think that

(49:48):
it's so the question is almost like preceding the revelation,
and I'm like, yeah, okay, now you're gonna have to
tell me what you mean. That's happened a few times
where I'm like and actually, so I kind of broadening
the lens. There have been times in my life where
coincidences will stack on top of each other with like

(50:08):
a great degree of like this is five in a row, right,
And usually coincidences don't happen in my or I don't
pay much attention to them, but there I remember there
was one time where I was reading like three or
four different books together that I just started at different periods,
and I was trying to get them all done, so
I was like sitting down and reading them, and they
were all like making references to each other, so to speak.

(50:28):
They're not by the same it's not the same genre.
There was one specifically where I was reading a Graham
Hancock book and I was like, I will end at
page two hundred to pause and move to this other
book to read fifty pages or whatever. So on page
like two hundred, I don't know if it's an exact number.
There's like a line about first the flood, after that
the fire about like Noah, and I was like, oh,
that's an interesting line. I picked up a book in
the Expanse series and someone has that tattooed on their arm.

(50:50):
And the very next page that I read, and I
was like, what the frick is happening here? And I
always wonder if when there's a lot of coincidences like that,
it's because God's like, hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, can
you pay more time right now? Like I'm just like
poking me to get my attention? Yeah? Is that? I'm like,
I'm looking at it? What am I supposed to be seeing?
What am I looking at it? Like? Look, and I'm
like to find where because there was like three hundred

(51:11):
and sixty great field that I could look in looking
what is it? My eyes are open? Direct them anyway.
So but to back up to give us contact and
also to further delve into this topic, we do need
to look at the passage is where the Bible forbids inquiring, Oh,
I am really glad that you decided to bring that up.

(51:34):
I live to please. So the first one, you shall
not worship the Lord of God in that way, which
is referring to how the the Pagans worshiped for every
abominable thing the Lord hates they have done for their gods.
For they even burn their sons and their daughters in
the fire to their gods. So that's not require acquiring
of the debb but it's the same vibe. To scroll
down a little bit. When you come into the land

(51:55):
that the Lords your God is giving you, you shall
not learn to follow the abominable practic of those nations.
There shall not be found among you anyone who burns
his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who
practices divination, or tells fortunes, or interprets omens, or a
sorcerer or a charmer, or a medium, or a necromancer,
or one who inquires of the dead. For whoever does

(52:16):
these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because
of these abominations, the Lord your God is driving them
out before you. I stress abomination because this is like
a this is the worst thing you can do. When
God says abomination is like these are occult practices utterly despicable,
and they're lumped in on the same level as sacrificing

(52:37):
your sons and daughters. Right, inquiring of the dead, it's
not just as harmless. We're playing with the Wigi board
and it said something weird, right, Yeah, so specifically because
the medium, necromancer, diviner, those are all lumped together, but
specifically holding in on the line or one who inquires
of the dead. I always took this to mean that
you're not actually going to reach the dead, but you

(52:58):
will end up interacting with something demonic, which it could
be the case, and that you know that's obviously very,
very bad. But the Bible never actually stipulates do not
inquire of the dead because a demon could answer, right,
And I think that says done inquire of the dead. Yes,
So the Bible assuming to take it for granted that
you would be it's not just the asking that's the problem.
I'm assuming it's that something answers, and the Bible seems

(53:21):
to indicate maybe it's the dead answering it. At least
at the very least, it does nothing to disabute like
it it's clear that the people it's referring to believe
that's what they were doing, and the Bible doesn't say
that they are wrong. It does say that they're wrong
when they worship idols, where they're like, you're literally just
bowing down to Wood. What are you doing? Yeah, although

(53:43):
later in the New Testament it does say that idols
are demons. Right, there's two things that can happen there,
you're bowing down to helpless wood and also the comediements. Right. Also,
I love how you're gonna say disabuse because I love
the implication to disabuse someone of a notion means that
that notion is just abusing them. Right. So this idea

(54:04):
of I'm just what I'm doing here personally for me
is I'm just opening my mind and my heart up
to the fact that maybe the Bible is literally saying
these things. And I don't want to be like, well,
God didn't say and just kind of talk over God
while he's being like I think, I feel like I
made myself pretty clear of you can acquire of the dead,
but that's bad. You're not supposed to have conversations with it.
And I think it could very easily be both because
I think that you could make a strong case that

(54:26):
like some little old lady who's a little bit closer
to the veil has just started hearing ghosts, and she's like, oh,
I in like good faith. I love you guys. I
think I'm hearing your you know, deceased loved ones. You
can come to my house and we'll make some tea
and we'll make some soup and we'll talk. Yes, I

(54:50):
said it, I'll talk to your loved ones. And then
but once you were in that door into that world.
I do think that if we're saying that the ghosts
live in this world that is the same world that
the demons are living in, you've opened up the byway. Yeah,
So the idea that you think you are just talking
to these lovely little souls that you love, you've also

(55:14):
opened the door to much more evil human souls, much
more evil ghosts, but also demons in the same realm.
And maybe we circle back to the demons are the
Neffulham ghosts, and they are the more evil. I don't know.
But another I think clue in the context of the
Samuel story is Saul had what we would not. He

(55:36):
didn't have good in contentions, but comparatively, he had the
intention of speaking to a good person, and that was
something that killed not just him but his sons. Yeah,
so even inquiring of the righteous dead is an abomination,
which is interesting because he got the dead person that
he wanted on the phone right, so to speak, right.
And Yeah, and the idea too that it's not just

(56:00):
that you're not supposed to do this, but that anybody
who even has that skill set, as it were, totally
remove them from the land, like, completely remove your accounts
to this because it is because I do think if
when you're grieving a loved one, the temptation to speak

(56:22):
to them, yes, is way too high. Which is why
when I saw some accounts that I would otherwise like
otherwise really like sharing around AI videos of Charlie trying
to comfort people after his death, I was like, holy crap, stop,
Oh my god, bad, very very bad. Do you not

(56:45):
even take the first step? Yeah, that's dissortment. People. Let
me open up a can of beams, not beans. I
meant to say beans, but now it's beams. It's not
a can of worms. Just get it. Great. Is asking
the dead for help through prayer acquiring of the dead, Yes,
it is. It is praying. And this is this is

(57:08):
the thing. This. Catholics do so much work to try
to dismiss the Samuel passage because Samuel's a saint, right,
Like he has a saint, right, I'm pretty but if
anyone's saint it, it's got it. I could actually just
google that if the thing. But like Samuel was a
righteous man, he was a high priest. Yeah, So the

(57:30):
idea that, like we can pray to the saints and
they can take a request to God, then that's literally
what Saul was trying to do. He was trying to
pray to someone the Catholic Church has said is a saint,
someone the Catholic Church has said you can pray to.
Saul prayed to him, called him to be a mediator

(57:50):
between him and God, to give him a message from God.
And God's like you and your entire family dead tonight
for this. So I found something, and I'm trying to
be respectful here and I shouldn't actually be trying to
respectul So on the National Catholic Register, I found an
article about Samuel and it's it says, because of his
influence over the first two kings of Israel, he might

(58:12):
be a good saint to turn to when praying for
political leaders. He would also be a good saint to
turn to when spiritual guidance is needed for personal reasons.
Did you guys not read the account where when someone
turned him for guidance? There are so many times I've
said this on the show before, I will say it again.
There are theological differences where I completely understand how any

(58:33):
two people who love the Lord in good faith can
read the Bible and come to different conclusions. I understand
why Calvinist conclude what they conclude. I understand why our
Minians conclude what they conclude, because there's enough scripture that
goes both ways that you can be like, Okay, I
trust that you love the Lord. Yes, with so much
of what the Catholic Church holds dear, the scripture is

(58:56):
so explicitly against it that I'm like, you don't care
about the truth. You do not read your Bible in
good faith. You do not read your Bible with care
about the truth and care about what God's telling you.
If you can read a passage as explicit as that
and go, yeah, this is totally okay for me to
keep inquiring of the dead the way that I do, Like,
in my head, this has to be satire. But it's
like of literally any person in the Bible to say,

(59:18):
this is a good person to turn to for guidance,
and you choose the one person who someone got killed
too killed for turning two for guidance, you're mocking God.
Oh it's so, it's really really gross, and it's really dangerous.
It's really dangerous to sit there and pray, pray, to
say inquire of the dead. We should just call it
what it is. It is really dangerous to inquire of

(59:38):
the dead. And the Catholic Church has condoned this thing
that God made so clear was an abomination, not just
the little sin, but an abomination. I wouldn't This is
me personally, I wouldn't want to go anywhere near Like
if something God, something calls something an abomination, I wouldn't
even want to see. If I'm like, well, this feels
like it could be, but maybe not, I would stick there.

(59:59):
Which I mean that you could fall into the the
air that the Pharisees fell into, building guardrails and then
more guardrails protect from the guardrails. But you know what
I mean, I hope, yeah, yeah, so, And I'm already
suspecting given that we're at an hour that this will
need to be split into two parts. Okay, So let's
see how this is within the next forty five ish minutes.
Let's feel for where we're at to see if it's
worth splitting. So okay. Also, this is a side note,

(01:00:20):
and this is potentially me grasping at straws, but I
just wanted to bring it up because it can't put
my research and house like wait, huh, another bug in
my ear to think, can you pull up mark five
for me? Okay, I do have the link there? Good, good,
good good. So they came to the other side of
the sea, to the country of the Garrisones. And when

(01:00:41):
Jesus had stepped out of the boat, immediately there met
him out of the tombs. A man with an unclean spirit.
He lived among the tombs, and no one could find
him anymore, not even with the chain, for he had
often been bound with the shackles and chains. But he
wrenched the chains apart, and he broke the shackles and pieces.
No one had the strength to subdue him. Night and
day among the tombs and on the mountains. A lot
of repetition he was. Yeah, he was always crying out
and cutting himself with stones, and when he saw Jesus

(01:01:03):
from Afar, he ran and fell down before him. I
just want to read the whole Basagelic's passage, and crying
out with a loud voice, he said, what have you
to do with me, Jesus, a son of the most
High God? I adjure you, by God, do not torment me.
For he was saying to him, come out of the man,
you unclean spirit. And Jesus asked him, what is your name?
He replied, my name is Legion, for we are many,
and he begged him earnestly not to send him out
of the country. Now, a great heart of pigs was
fading there on the hillside, and they begged him, saying,

(01:01:26):
send us to the pigs, let us enter them. So
he gave them permission, and the unclean spirits came out
and entered the pigs, and the herd, numbering about two thousand,
rushed down the steep bank into the sea and drowned
in the sea. Now side note here, because we're you
don't even have to assume one spirit per pig. It
could be multiples per pig. That is so many, that's
an infestation. I was actually gonna say, it could be

(01:01:50):
fewer spirits because you wouldn't have to have a spirit
in every pig. Oh true, to inspire the herd to
go over, but I didn't want to point out that
unclean spirit into unclean an animal. Yes, yeah, that is
that's why the pigs. There is this meme where it's
like there's a there's a uh rooster. It's like an
l crow for the lord and I had to talking.
That's like, and I will let him ride me into

(01:02:12):
town and all these animal dove's like, and I will
rest on his shoulder, and the pig is like, and
I will wait a second pull up. But the reason
I hold up this passage is that repetition of tombs. Now,
it could absolutely be a coincidence because you know, this
man is an outcast from society. He's lurking out in
a place that's really undesirable and people aren't really tumbslace. Yeah,

(01:02:34):
but but it is could be a clue potentially a satellite,
you know, that thing beaming down information that's kind of
seems like an aside but isn't. But it is like
important of is he in the tombs because what's haunting
him is from the tombs. Mm hmm. It's a good point.
I hadn't thought of it that way before, but the
tombs thing is repeated over and over in a way

(01:02:54):
that might be intended to communicate information. Yes, And then
I love note writing me because then I just through
and as a line in my notes randomly sin as
a physical substance. Uh. And I think what I meant
to discuss is could the secret third be thing be
sin can take on physical form? But I think you
just get around to the topic of like sin is

(01:03:15):
from temptation from demons. So I don't know, I just
I just love that that's in my notes, and there's
no explanation of what I think the idea that Okay,
let me tease that out a little bit, because it's
I put that in there, probably wild conjecture, but it's
also the idea of like, can your sin become such like, yes,

(01:03:37):
is a demon that you as a human have sub
created a being out of your out of your sin. Basically,
I think that's kind of why I put it in
as almost like a talpa, yeah, by your behavior, like
if you're the kind of person who's like I'm going
to do six hours straight of porn, like that's a
level of psychic damage to the universe. I don't know.

(01:03:58):
I'm just did you create you? Like? Is your demon
besetting you? Like? Did a demon come from outside of
you to beset you? Or did you create a demon
that is then tormented you. I don't actually believe that,
because I think that we see too much child demon
possession in scripture for that to be the convulse kids sucked. No,
I don't, but I do think it's in There is

(01:04:22):
a lot of biblical basis for you acted a certain
way until it took you over. Yeah, well, because normally
your idea of what leads to possession is not like
you were having a great day and a great life
and you were a great person and boom, possessed, Like
you just got zapped. There was I'm trying to roper
the name of a book. I read a book by

(01:04:44):
He was a Catholic, he was a cop, and he
was also an exorcist. And I don't know if he
was official. I don't think he was official with like
the thing, but he was doing like straight ex was.
It was an interesting book and he was talking about
a case where a family had a haunting by something
that was claiming to be x y z D and
not sorry x y z ghost from whatever time period,
and that that was used as a foothold, and he

(01:05:05):
explained how the doorways got opened up to possession over time.
It was interesting, Like, I don't know if any of
it was true, but it was an interesting breakdown. Interesting,
and I will never shake the association of the day
I finished that book, the house that I was in
caught fire in the middle of the night. Oh, and
I always am like, isn't my fault that book? Oh? Oh,

(01:05:27):
and no, we won't get into the fire story. I
feel like I've told it before. He felt it. Yeah,
it wasn't that dramatic, but it was. It was funny.
But anyway, So let's delve into theories about ghosts related
to the soul sleep theory. So this is kind of
a nascent thought. I am still teasing it out, and
I'm relying heavily on abley Abby to help me tease

(01:05:49):
the thought out. So are the souls of those who
do not rest easy? So those who died who were
not rare with the Lord. When I'm talking about soul sleep,
people causing ghosts. Christians are excluded from this, I think
the sleep well. And I also think if we're not
allowed to acquire of the dead, if it's an abomination,
that those who follow the Lord when they die are
not going to seek to inquire of people. Now, now
your point about the Sheldon vanoc and severe Mercy, it's

(01:06:13):
possible that they are allowed to be there as a
presence watching over. But I we're going to just pretend
for the purposes of this conversation that I am only
talking about people who who are not well. It seem
pretty clear if you if you read a Severe Mercy.
He didn't leave this squishy at all. His position was

(01:06:34):
if if the person who dies tie is really really strong,
God might let them lingers a certain amount of time,
but there is always a limit. It is a hard limit,
and then they are gone. They don't slowly fade out.
They are there one day, they are gone the next,
and it is what God allows as far as how
long they can stay. And I wouldn't be surprised if

(01:06:56):
there was some extent of like it is a mercy.
It potentially would be mercy for God to be like,
you died really suddenly, You're going to be resting soon.
And I'm doing this also for your sake, to comfort
you before you go to sleep, so that you can
see that your family is okay. Right, you can say
you're goodbyes before you go to sleep. I don't know, right,
there is structure. I want to be careful about pagan ideas,

(01:07:18):
but there is a really strong idea in the world
for generations and generations generations of the idea of like
rest in peace, I hope you rest easy, which implies
it like we have as humanity are really strong gut impression. Yes,
that there are people who don't rest easy, and then

(01:07:42):
that's something that you should wish for people. It's like
a default built in belief. And I did actually bring
up at the end of recording, not on the recording.
I brought ou up to Abby after we hit stop.
Is it possible I have not looked into this. Is
it possible that the idea of us resting went away
in Christianity when the idea of purgatory was introduced in

(01:08:02):
order to sell what's it called adults? Well, maybe you
don't know if they're resting yet, but that's a conversation.
It's a good point. Yeah, I think that the doctrine
of purgatory has really muddy the waters on our understanding
of these things. If if there is anything like a purgatory,

(01:08:23):
then it is the interim hell that the spirits of
the damned are in before the final judgment, right, And
I do I want to point out here I think
that this is just as much the muddying of the
waters around. This is just as much a Protestant problem
as a Catholic problem, because so often Protestants will react
too strongly to a false Catholic doctrine to the extent

(01:08:47):
that they miss something true as well. On the flip side,
the idea of like, no, there's no purgatory, you immediately
go be with God and there's no there's no period
of time that could possibly be construed as purgatory, I
think is missing the biblical reality of soul sleep. Yeah,
I think I think the main things that are wrong
about purgatory is that you cannot pray someone through the

(01:09:11):
idea of you're not going to go pay for your
own sin. Jesus paid for your sin, and you can't
go pray someone through their paying for their own sin.
Jesus took the penalty of our sin. And they'll make
this distinction of temporal versus physical, and God doesn't make
that distinction. Also, what was it should I had a
thought connected to that? Oh, if purgatory were a thing,

(01:09:33):
then I feel like it would have been important to
bring up. During the early church days when people were
getting killed, it was like, oh, yeah, James got bartered,
let's make sure we pray for him so his temporal
punishment is done quickly. So right, Yeah, but that would
have been relevant, much too important of a thing to
just not have there. Yeah. So, going back to the
souls of the dead who are not resting easy, is

(01:09:55):
it possible that to some extent they are trying to
control the living from the grape and they know that
they're hell bound. Are they trying to take down as
many with them as they can? So our understanding of
demons is they will try to keep as many people
from reaching the Kingdom of God as they can. But
what if it's humans who didn't see God. Because they
do that in real life before they die, they try
to take down as many with them to Hell as

(01:10:17):
they can. So what if that continues, especially more so
like the crabs in the bucket mentality, our consciousnesses are
so tied into the workings of our brain potentially considering
the descriptions of neodes, experiences and astral stuff. Is it
possible when the body has died that the soul realizes
more of its potential Because it's like we're sometimes I
feel this myself where I'm like, if I could just

(01:10:39):
rip my scullop and so my brain can stretch a
little and think better hooking the screen. The idea of
now this is going into It's not a provable theory
or a disprovable theory, but the idea of when we
are no longer clouded by the world and our perceptions
of our limitations, are we able to tap into more
of the abilities? Then we have now stuff that maybe

(01:11:01):
we used to have access to when the world was
newer and our DNA was less degraded. Because we have
this we talk about, you know, is it possible that
the humans before the flood, you know, could they have
been telepathic? Could they have had some telekinesist powers. We're
gonna we're gonna dig into that later a little bit
in this episode or if the episode gets split in
the next one when we talk about Poldergeist, because there's
a theory that's interesting that has to do with telepathy

(01:11:22):
and telconesist and none tell them just telecanesist. But which
goes to like how do they build the Pyramids of
Let because that's that's the theory of like back in
the deep, deep, deep deep past, when when they were
building the pyramids that they did just move it with
their minds and it's just an ability that we've lost. Yeah,
the idea of are you able able slash willing to

(01:11:45):
do the dead? Because the idea is, you know, it
makes sense that someone who followed the Lord would would
rest easy because they they're resting and hope, they're resting
and waiting, and you know, they might wake up from
time to time to be o to be like, God,
how much longer before my blood is event? And then
go back to sleep. But those who do not have
anything to look forward to? Are they all their unfinished business,

(01:12:06):
all their hatred of God? All of that? Is that
something that just kind of magnifies and distills. This goes
to a really heavy question that I've had ever since
I did that particular episode. I think it was like
the nephel one on one one where you never see
demon possession in the Old Testament it's just not there. Yes,

(01:12:29):
you see God sending a spirit to torment, but like
there's a few references to God sending a spirit to
do some mischief. Yeah, and then it shows up in
the intertestmental period is when they started getting possessions. I think, oh, interesting.
So it's been a huge question mark for me of like,

(01:12:50):
why is it that this popped up and then seemed
to reach a crescendo with Jesus where Jesus is casting
out demons every right and left, and then the apostles
in the early Church are casting out demons right and left,
and then I see it, you seeing you hear about
it throughout history of the Church later, but it doesn't

(01:13:11):
seem to be quite as at least not understood to
be as common. And it's a different tenor we'll tag
into that in my research episode, but you're fine to
talk about it now. My question mark is, if your
theory is correct that these are souls who are desperate
to keep people from coming to God, that it would

(01:13:32):
make sense that it would reach a crescendo when Jesus
was walking the planet and in the early Church days
where it's like lots of upheaval in the spiritual realm,
lots of reasons for some of these souls to maybe
come into more awareness, to have a little bit more
power for a while because of whatever is going on
behind the scenes. And also kind of I wonder if

(01:13:53):
the ripple effect of Jesus doing something with death that
it goes forward and back. Yeah, so that going back
to like intertestamental causes that time that this disturbance ripples
both directions from Jesus like slicing down in there. Yeah,
that's sheer speculation, but it does make you wonder. But

(01:14:17):
the questions there are like deep nature of the spiritual
realm type of questions that we just don't have the
answers to. Yes, And I really, as part of my
exorcism episode, I do want to look into all of that,
all that history, because yeah, by the time of Jesus,
it has just taken for granted that that's the thing
that happens. And you're like, hold up, I missed a
chapter here, m hm. But yeah, so we're gonna move

(01:14:39):
on a little bit from the soul sleep specifically, but
we're still with the framework of that. Like I spent
a whole episode just so I could do that paragraph basically,
and then we're gonna talk more about Gus from other
different angles. So this next category is kind of a
lump category. I titled it residual Echoes, stone tape theory,
place memory, and blood Crying it from the ground. So

(01:15:00):
this is a quote from a book called Dark Matter
by Michelle Paper. I read it in one day at work.
It's a ghost story, but it's not a demonic ghost story.
I mean, it's very scary, but it's a your classic.
This person was wrong and so they're stuck hanging around
and they're angry at the living. It's extremely well written.
It's sent in Antarctica. I don't recommend ghost stories very
frequently because I think that there is like a line there,

(01:15:21):
but this did not feel like it would invite anything
for me at least. Yeah, but this is a quote
from it. It's an echo, that's what it is. This
is the character is trying to explain to himself that
he has not seen an actual ghost that could harm him. Okay,
an echo from the past. I've read about that. It's
called place memory, a well known idea ben around sens
of Victorians. If something happens in a place, something intensely
emotional or violent. It imprints itself on the place, maybe

(01:15:42):
by altering the atmosphere like radio waves, or by affecting
matter so that rocks, for example, become in some way
charged with what occurred. Then if a receptive person comes
along the place plays back the event or snatches of it,
you simply need to be there to pick it up. Yes,
I okay. I have so viscerally felt this type of
place memory thing to be true. And I don't know

(01:16:05):
if that makes it I don't think that that makes
it true, but I felt it to be true. Particularly
there's one like visceral memory that I have where I
was in the town we grew up in, and there
is a river through the town where a yes, where
a revolutionary war battle was fought, and so I knew

(01:16:27):
I was standing on a bridge. The bridge was new,
but it was the same place where a girl had
stood and saw the British ship coming up the river
and then went running down the bank to warn everybody
that the British ship was coming. This is a thing
that happened in this yes, Yeah, And there there was

(01:16:47):
like a visceral place memory in that place, and that
I felt like it was and maybe it was just
me in my childhood imagination, but it felt a lot
more than that. I felt like I felt that whole
story because there was there was bloodshed, there was it
was a really significant moment in a town that had

(01:17:08):
not had violence like that prior. There was it be
that as it may. That's one of them. And then
another one I have felt really strongly is like there's
a there's one particular Civil War battlefield in our area
where you walk on it, you can just feel it

(01:17:29):
in the ground. And a lot of Civil War battlefields
are like that. Gettysburg is like that, but that particular
one I don't want a doxis, so I don't want
to say it, but I feel it really really strongly there.
But especially some of the Civil War stuff, And a
lot of ghosts claim to be Civil War ghosts when
they when they interact with you. And I've wondered if

(01:17:49):
just the brother against brother violence of the Civil War
has especially created these these memories, this blood in the
ground and all that. So I but I could make it,
you could make the argument that place memory and blood
in the ground is kind of the same theory, right,
especially if you talk about something violent happened here, but

(01:18:11):
counterpoint to the just the blood thing. So I ever
since I was a kid, since I was learning about
like sound in school, I have had this theory and
it's it's pretty crackpot in that I have done exactly
zero research to see if it is even plausive. But
it came to mind when I was learning that sound
waves don't ever go away. They just disperse further and

(01:18:33):
further apart the further they get from the source. So
I in my thinking, I like, say you're inside a building,
do the sound waves sort of like encounter the walls
and the objects within the building and they gradually begin
to change the vibrational residence. It's very new age is sounding,
so that you go to a place and you just
know something awful happen there because there's like this like
specifically like continual like a house where someone is shouting

(01:18:55):
at you all the time, right, and the walls just
kind of absorb that. So you just you walk in
and you're like, I don't know why, it's somehow I
feel like I could feel the shouting still echoing. Well,
there's this really heavy instinct in so I whenever an
instinct like really seems to transcend cultures, but also transcend

(01:19:15):
worldviews of Like I'm a Christian, I shouldn't believe this,
but I still believe that when I walk into a
house that had that sort of violence in it, whether
it was just violence to another person's soul or and
that's probably what I would say. Is it not necessary?
I'm not saying you're you're because I think there's a
lot about sound that we don't understand or that we

(01:19:36):
used to. We used to know about residences that we
have forgotten, harmful and helpful ones. But the idea that
like you don't want to buy a house where someone's
been murdered, why, Yeah, wife has been cleaned up. Yeah?
Is it just because you're you know, delicate sensibilities are offended.

(01:19:58):
There's there's something in the hind brain. So for kind
of a real world me context, specifically talking about death,
I used to live in an apartment. You briefly lived
there before you got married. It was a basement apartment
and when I moved in, so to give you an
idea of what the layout is, there was like a
it was mostly open floor plan, except that the staircase

(01:20:21):
from the upstairs comes down, so like part of the
middle of the floor is taken up by like by
the staircase, the staircase and the walls around the staircase,
and if you're it's up against the far wall, like
to the opening of the staircase. So if you want
to go on one side of it, there's the laundry
room where you could walk past the staircase and you
know it. It's a circle. So anyway, I liked the

(01:20:42):
department I had apartment. I didn't have anything against it,
but I very quickly started to feel like there was
something at the base of the stairs, and it didn't
feel like something evil. Initially, I was like, this feels
like what I imagined it would feel like to see
an angel. I think I even felt like I was
praying to God and felt like you told me it
was an angel. And I was like, can I please
stop feeling it? And I did after I bread yeah,

(01:21:04):
But over time I just felt more and more like
there was a sense of despair associated with that spot
in the house. It wasn't in other spots. And there
was even one point where I was lying in bed
and I was like, if I look up right now,
I'll see it peeking around. Whatever this thing is, and
it's not gonna hurt me. It can't hurt me. It's
not violent, but it's just like the sad leeching thing.
And I was there for long enough. Just I'll state

(01:21:26):
for the record that I am in full agreement of
every he did. That You say that you you experience,
you have always experienced these things at a higher level
than I did, even when I was in the same place.
But I felt the same thing. I agreed with you
that we were feeling the same thing. So I'm trying
to remember exactly. It's been a while, but I knew

(01:21:46):
that the family that lived upstairs, like the landlady's family,
they had another son, and I knew that he died.
No one had told me that. I just knew it.
I knew that he died. I knew it wasn't like, oh,
he's off a college. Yeah, And I did some digging.
This was I think a while after I moved out,
that son killed himself. Yeah. I don't know if it
was in the basement. It could have been, it might
not have been. But I always kind of it was

(01:22:08):
like I we knew that before we knew it. Yeah,
I knew that he died and and like it was
no surprise that he killed himself. I remember while we
were still living there where we were like, did he
kill himself? Yeah, Oh, it feels like he killed himself.
I was. I was trying not to assume in retrospect
if I remember where we were we had the conversation
we were outside next to that like planet container, because

(01:22:29):
I remember going like, I know this to be true,
and I would never ask her, I would never know
this to be true, Jen about yourself. Wasn't in the basement.
So all that to say that, like you can since something,
something leaves something behind, and I will say here too,

(01:22:50):
I was less sure that it had happened in the basement,
but that that area where the stairs came down was
the boundary between our place and the place, and so
the despair felt like it could have just been because
I had never been in the upstairs of their house,
I didn't know, but I thought perhaps that it was
just leaking down into that interim. And that is a

(01:23:11):
very good point because also that would kind of apply
to the sensitive like something peeking around right side. Note
this is connected in my head, and I'll kind of
explain why. I don't know if I've mentioned I think
I've probably mentioned this on the show before, but there
was one time where I was I was living with
my friend this is the friend where the house caught fire,
and I was driving by her house and I all

(01:23:33):
of a sudden just got this. I don't know how
I'll describe it except an impression like obviously I was
away because I was driving and I was not anything,
and I just got this impression there was something in
the backseat and you have to tell it it's not
welcome there. And the thing I was like seeing it
in my mind'side, and I had this feeling of like,
I swear I don't have six of friend. I had
this feeling that if I looked up in the rear
view mirror, i'd see it on some level, not like

(01:23:55):
a physical thing, but like I would see it, and
it was in my head. I knew what I would see,
this horrible burn victim basically where like the skin is
blackened but cracking so you can see red in like
in between the cracks. And I was just like, you
can't stay here, like you're not welcome, like it was.
It gave this like sad impression of like just let
me rest here for a while, just say yes that
I can rest here for a while. And I didn't

(01:24:16):
think a ton of it. I was like that, that's weird,
but like it left, and you know, maybe I'm crazy,
maybe I'm not. And then a friend a couple of
years later was telling me about a dream she had
and she described that creature m and I was like,
what but and it was like a very ramonic dam
But away getting back to the sound thing, I am

(01:24:37):
not the only person to come up with the idea
of sound. I came up with the independently. But other
people are smart like me. So Charles Babbage from the
nineteenth century had similar musings. They were different, but he
basically posited that sound waves like they never go away,
but they become inaudible, but that they kind of stay
suspended in the air and under the right circumstances you
can hear them again. So which goes to the nature

(01:25:00):
of time in some ways as well, like what is time?
What is the nature of time and space? Of like,
just because somebody screamed one hundred years ago in this space,
how connected are we via time? Do you only hear
it in that one spot? And we're going to talk
more about that, but also the idea of time is

(01:25:23):
affected by gravity, therefore it is on some level physical, right.
I feel like if the sound waves can disperse physically,
can they also disperse temporally? And I believe people have
tried to chase down is time a particle? And the
conclusion as far is if it's a particle, it's so

(01:25:43):
small that we can't sense it. But if time is
a particle, then it can be operated on, so you
can create a time machine, is what I'm saying. So
in the same vein the idea of some sort of
imprint and the idea of blood calling up from the ground,
which were going to talk about in a second, do
we think that the ghost settings and encounters are just

(01:26:07):
the land testifying to what was done there? Or you know,
is the soul's uneasy? So Genesis forty to eleven, if
you could pull that, this is like my key. Yes,
oh no, I accidentally stopped sharing. I'm so now I
was already sharing it and then I did. And this
like I going into this, I want to know is
this a figurative reference or a literal reference? So now

(01:26:30):
Adam knew his wife so English I can read now
Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, saying,
I have gotten a man with the help of the Lord.
I just love the word I've gotten a man. Behold
a man, chow, It's just a full born man. And
again she bore his brother Abel. Now Abel was a
keeper of sheep, and Cain a worker of the ground.
In the course of time, Cain brought to the Lord
an offering of the fruit of the ground, and Abel

(01:26:52):
also brought of the first born of his flock and
of their fat portions. And the Lord had regarded for
Abel and his offering, but for Cain and his offering
he had no regard. So Cain was very angry, and
his face fell. The Lord said to Kane, why are
you angry? And why is your face fallen? If you
do well, will you not be accepted? And if you
do not do well, sin is crouching at the door.
It is. It's desire is for you, and you must

(01:27:14):
rule over it. So we already have some precedent for yes,
some metaphorical language. Here's yeah, it's referring to sin as
an external well. Crouching is a very like physical thing, right,
clutching at the door. Yeah, person crouching. Yeah, now, and
that could just be figurative. But Kin spoke to Able
his brother, Well, so yes, there are no demons. Like,

(01:27:36):
even if you think that demons are ghosts, there are
no ghosts for this to be yet true. Right, So
it is speaking of like it's desires for you and
you must roll over it. So yeah, it is speaking
because I want to say, like I did brush it
off as like possibly figurative, but like the idea of
God as literally characterizing sin as something that externally desires

(01:27:57):
for you. Yeah, and you must rule over it, wrutching
at the door of your mind or heart. So you
could take this as as an argument that demons are
already in play before there's any dead humans, or that
sin is a physical substance, or that that's the same thing. Yeah.
Cain spoke to Able his brother, and when they were

(01:28:17):
in the field, Cain rose up against his brother Abel
and killed him. Then the Lord said to Cain, where
is Abel your brother? He said, I do not know.
Am I my brother's keeper. Dude, you're already in so
much trouble, do not make it worse. And Lord said,
what if you've done the voice of your brother's blood
is crying to me from the ground, and now you
are cursed from the ground which is open. It's about
to receive your brother's blood from your hand. When you
work the ground, it shall no longer yield to it,

(01:28:38):
yield to you its strength. You shall be a fugitive.
And water on the earth, and et cetera, et cetera.
The idea of like God. Obviously God sees everything, but
God is choosing to explain how he knows Abel's killed
by saying, you know, the blood in the ground is
telling me what you did. I yes. So one thing
I want to mention here is there's so much picking

(01:29:00):
up from the school field Bible that I was just
never taught, and it doesn't make it right. It's just new,
new old things. The idea that what God does with
Cain is he says, you're going to be a fugitive
and wandering. I'm going to put a mark on you
that no one can no one can kill you in
retaliation for killing Abel. Yes, And it isn't until after

(01:29:23):
the flood, which the flood came because men man became
so incredibly violent after the flood that God says, when
man sheds blood by man, his blood shall be shed.
So this is this is a difference. This is an
argument for dispensationalism, where the original dispensation was I'm going

(01:29:44):
to put a mark on a murderer and no one's
allowed to kill them. But after the flood he's like, no, no, no,
if you kill someone, you can be killed, they can
kill you. And it's it's a complete, it's a complete.
It's a change. It's it's a sizeable change. But I
think we're talking about the moral development of humanity where

(01:30:07):
God let the fullness of what happens when you kill
people play out and then the flood and then like, okay,
you guys get it. Now this is the new way.
And also he allowed it to fully play out of
why now we know it doesn't work when you don't
kill the murderers. Yes, you actually you do need to

(01:30:29):
kill a murderer. You need Yeah, but I think that
he had to establish that before killing the murderer would
make just a severe remark on the avenger soul as
the original murder. And also wasn't after the flood that
we were allowed to eat meat? Now yep, not too.
So something else changed in terms of like yeah, and

(01:30:50):
I pretend to know all the answers. Yeah, it's well,
the explanation is that it's a different dispensation. But why
it's a different dispensation, I think is the is the
stuff that you're trying to exactly figure out. And I
think also partially, maybe the Earth changed in nature during
this time, something about I mean, the Earth was newer

(01:31:13):
and younger, and maybe there was a certain thing that
changed it, like a way that the earth functioned before
the flood that was destroyed by the flood that we
don't even see. So we don't have the context to
understand all these things. I don't know, I'm just spitballing. Well,
the idea with Kine is that the earth itself punished him. Yes,
so no human needed to punish him. Yeah, and I yeah,
it might be because the Earth was newer or the
ground itself was more alive, because it also seems that

(01:31:37):
that curse of the ground, or at least part of
the curse of the ground, was also taken down after
the flood, if you read those verses. I'm not sure
if it's the entirety. I don't think. I don't I
don't believe that it's the entirety of the curse it
was laid on Adam because that was such a foundational curse.
I think it was eradicated. But the idea of like

(01:31:58):
it is going to be easier, like the earth is
going to fight you the same way. Yeah, I mean
we still I mean it's still not easy to grow stuff.
But yeah, we don't die from servation because we're not
able to grow what we need. We're able to grow
more than enough food and in fact, we're now super
fat right in America. Yeah, looking at the time, I'm
trying to decide one would be a good spot to split,

(01:32:19):
because we are going to have to split this in half,
I think. So I think what we're going to do is,
let's just do a few video things at this point,
maybe do half of our videos now and interact them.
So I did, like, we are going to actually do
videos at the end, and then we'll pick up with
more because we're still in the in the place memory category.

(01:32:41):
I just feel like there's a lot more discussion that
we might end up doing, right. I think there's more
discussion I want to have about blood crying from the ground,
the idea because we talked about MM hmm. Blood being
like blood carries the oxygen, yes, and the oxygen in
some not oxygen, but like the breath of God. The spirit.

(01:33:04):
The spirit is the breath of God. The blood's carrying
the breath of Gun and and God says, don't eat
the blood because life's in the blood. So this idea
that like, if your blood's crying from the ground, isn't
that the same as saying your spirit is crying from
the ground. Yeah? Yeah, So for some things to play
at the end, do you want to do your video
but the tombson thing? Do you think that would fit

(01:33:25):
nicely here? Do you want to wait for that one? Can't?
We can't. Yeah, I let's do it. It's a little bit. Okay,
I did unmute that. Oh this is something Brooks sent me,
and I'm not entirely sure that it's real, but I
think that it goes to the like place memory or
spirit crying thing. I think I need to tell that. Sah,

(01:33:50):
he's like banging on the wall. Yeah, he woke up
from his nap. There is something basically, you're hearing a voice.
You're gonna hear a voice on camera a couple of times,
and the guy is going to interact with it as
if this is perfectly normal, and I just have questions
about it and the nature of the voice. It makes
me think he's using like some sort of spirit blox

(01:34:11):
like yeah thing for it to communicate with. But yeah,
so sorry, he's cleaning a little headstone.

Speaker 2 (01:34:18):
Thank you, You're welcome whenever spirit said that, Am I
a ghost?

Speaker 1 (01:34:35):
Yes?

Speaker 2 (01:34:36):
You are? With those ghostly applauds, it's quite the Nope,
I'm not leaving.

Speaker 1 (01:34:53):
Where are you for the first time? Good promise? I
think Hebrew. So I hadn't listened to the whole clip,

(01:35:19):
so I know exactly what he's using. I forget what
it's called. But it allows you to scan the frequencies,
or allows the ghost the spirit to scan the frequency
so that it can use what's on the radio to communicate.
Oh I see, So that's why you're hearing the snatches
of sound because it the idea is that it's supposed
to be able to like splice from what's playing on
the radio waves to make a message like like a
ransom note was cut out. Okay, yeah, which is why

(01:35:40):
it's different voices and stuff. So to me, that's interesting.
It's really hard to tell just from a video. Whether
it's true or fault, it is interesting that he's not
trying to sensationalize, that he's just doing his thing. So
he's not he's at least not taking the angle of
Oh my gosh, I go spoke to me, guys, this
is so huge and big. What are your thoughts? So
it is this thank you, and then he says you're welcome.

(01:36:04):
Whatever spirit said that, Yeah, And it seemed like he
was playing for the camera. Oh, I want the camera
to know that a spirit said that. So that felt
a little bit yeah, false to me, and it could
be false in a it actually happened kind of way,
but like he's so used to it that he's playing
it up for the camera to make sure the content
is good, understandable if it's real. He has done this

(01:36:28):
so much that it is like normal for him. It
is extremely normal for him. So this is just from
my understanding of those things. I wouldn't say that he
is putting fake messages in that because the way that
works is it's just getting the frequencies. What I would
wonder about here if this is him legitimately using that is,

(01:36:51):
you know, anything on the spiritual side could use that
a demon or whatever. So it doesn't mean this is
a ghost. That doesn't mean that's the message it's trying
to say. It just means you you have left a
portal for divination that something could use and they can lie.
I also just found it. I found it a little
bit too convenient that like something on the radio would

(01:37:13):
be saying at that moment, and how would it am
I a ghost? Yeah? And then suddenly as a child's voice,
don't leave and also said Prime Minister. I think that's
important at one point it. The other thing that I
will point to is like, how does this paint the
person in the content? Yes, the messages that he gets

(01:37:35):
from the ghost paint him as this absolute hero where
it's saying thank you, it's saying am I a ghost?
And he's like, yep, you're a ghost, and and don't
leave me. Oh no, I'm not going anywhere like he's
going to eventually as this benevolent hero. And I'm like,
I'm not even if even if, because I do I

(01:37:55):
don't doubt that that kind of conversation is possible for
somebody who's inquiring of the dead. Yeah, but I don't
necessarily think that it's just going to so conveniently make
you look so lovely for your Instagram content. Yeah, now,
two two potential things. As I'm kind of chewing this

(01:38:16):
because my first inclination is that this is some sort
of scammy thing, not scam is in the right word,
but hoaxy thing. But both of my points just immediately
deleted from my brain. The idea that paradili paradilia is
like the thing where you see a human face in patterns,

(01:38:38):
and I think that box could just randomly scan frequencies,
give you snatches, and you're because you are expecting to
be communicated with, you form some narrative from it, because most
of what was coming out of that was irrelevant. It
was just scanning really quickly. It was what he chose
to respond to that defined it. But it is an
odd coincidence that it happened to say some of those
things that would really fit the context, right. But that's

(01:39:00):
the other thing of like, did he know that a
piece of schedule programming at this time was this ghost
story that he knew that those types of words were
going to be on the airwaves and chooses that time
to like, there's a way that you can manipulate that

(01:39:22):
I think, yeah, it to me, it falls under your
typical trying to think of the right word trelatanry. I
will just say, like baseline, I watched it and I
was like, this isn't real. Yeah, yeah, and not because
I don't believe that these forces are real, and also

(01:39:44):
just my rule of thumb when especially nowadays with AI. Yeah,
anytime that there's a video of something, you have to
really start criteria to be like, yes, I know that
this is legitimately not a setup. There's a video we're
going to use in the next clip where their conceit is.
You know, we've filmed this with no cuts, so everything

(01:40:05):
that's happening is happening in real time. It's not going
to be like we're concealing the two minutes it took
to set this up or whatever. So yeah, I think
that there are I really really really wanted to find
this one clip that I saw I think a couple
of years ago for this, and I even resorted to
asking chat GPT if I could find it, And my
favorite thing was chat GPT was like, if you can

(01:40:27):
remember a scene from it, then search that screenshot, and
I was like, I can't take screenshots of my brain
if I could do that, I would have done that,
thank you. But it just refers image search your memory less, right,
it's literally what it told me to do. It literally
said reverse image search. I was like, you don't understand.
I'm not, but I wish I could show the clip

(01:40:48):
because it was one of those clips where it was like,
this looks real, and it was before AI was a
big thing. So basically it's you know, people will have
sometimes those security footage cameras in their bedroom and I've
never understood, like why are you filming your bedroom? But
I think there's reasons why. I've seen some people do
them because they're like, oh I sleepwalk or oh my
cat's a really active I wanted to see what they
were doing. Sure, I guess if you're really concerned about

(01:41:09):
like breakins or if you like you're kinky, I swear
off my mind. Yeah, And I think this one was
probably doubling as a baby monitor. It was from an angle,
it was a security angle. But basically, if I'm recalling correct,
they might be wrong about some of the details of placement,
Like I don't remember if the baby in this scene
was in a bacinet or if it was on the bed.
I think it was in a basinet, but this woman
is on her bed, holdings black and white, and she's

(01:41:31):
I think napping, and then the bed sheet on the
side just starts like moving, lifting up. It's not anything
happening off the bed. It's like you can tell the
source of it is. I wish I could fully describe it.
But she sees it and she just she doesn't even
stop to like what is this. She immediately gets up,
she grabs a baby, and she leaves the room. And
it was just a sense of like there was something
weird and bad happening here, and she didn't overplay it,

(01:41:53):
and it was like I just got out. It was
one of those few things where I was like, I
think that was real, and I mean that that in
and of itself. If if that wasn't the first time
something had happened, would explain why she felt the need
to film, of like, I feel like things are happening,
I want to film, And that's that's another thing. If like,
if you're having these things happening, you're going to make
sense to put up a camera. There was another one
I do have. I'm not gonna share it because it
is I think two it feels too demonic. But basically

(01:42:16):
this guy is he's I think he's holding a phone
filming and you can hear him breathing. He's clearly like
very scared or playing very scared, and he's on his
bed and like his bedroom door opens and like something
comes in and then you see this like weird shape
thing like lean up onto the bed and then slide
off of it. And initially you're just like, wow, that's
so fick Like that's like someone edited in this this
vision thing. And then someone stitched it and was like

(01:42:38):
you can see it to form the bed as it
does that, and I was like, I don't think that's
a costume. It didn't have the element of a costume.
But I didn't want to play because I was like,
this feels like really demondic. That's that's that's the problem, right, Yeah,
that the ones that are the most real are the
ones that I feel like, the ones I'm the most
confident are real are the ones that I am actually

(01:42:59):
terrif to keep watching and would not want to show you. Yeah,
Like there was one I deleted off my phone because
these are videos I saved from TikTok. A couple of
years ago where this girl is talking to someone in
the back room and I think the mom is like
filming or something. She's like, who are you talking to?

Speaker 3 (01:43:14):
Coming out?

Speaker 1 (01:43:15):
And the kid comes out. You see something walk across
the doorway and the kid is just standing really weird
and she looks really spacey, and I was like, I don't, yeah,
want this on my phone. This is really scary and
it could still be staged. But another video I think
we should do is the one that says crucifix almost
falls on a priest. Okay, let's see. Is that the

(01:43:35):
one where he's doing his squeeze ball. Yes, that's the one.
He's not dressed like a priest, and I don't know
if it's labeled wrong if he's just a pastor, or
if priestswear suits sometimes and not their weird little color thing.
You could be a priest. Where's my squeezeball? Right now?
This is a I'm double dog Dare the devil to

(01:43:56):
mess with the word of God about those wins? You can't.
That's a little teaching tool we use to teach our children.
This is really giving Protestant pastor to me. But it
doesn't get wrong. He does have a Catholic crucifix in
the backs he does, but yeah, I agree, And also
I would just like to point out it feels like
he has constipation and he's really trying to to clear

(01:44:18):
like he's making himself very red. But go on, right, Yeah,
and I have I have seen, especially like a higher
church like Anglican or whatever Protestant have those types of crucifixes.
I did wonder if he was an angler fish. Yeah,
that you have authority over the devil. I double dog

(01:44:39):
dare the devil to do what to deal with the
word of God. And that's what these guys are doing.
They're dealing with the Word of God.

Speaker 2 (01:44:51):
Please.

Speaker 1 (01:44:54):
This is one where I'm like it, could you You
always have to think, okay, could fishing line have been
attached to this right and and pull us off? I'm
not a great Annell's nels is expert on this. It
looked like something from the wall pushed it out. It
didn't look like it was pulled. I don't know if
you can really make that distinct off. That's just my impression,
but it is interesting the timing of he's spending this
much time double dog daring the devil to do something,

(01:45:16):
and then it looks like the devil did something, but
your thoughts okay, two things, m h and then silence.
It's so weird because I knew some thoughts are slippery,
I knew what item was going to fall. Yeah, and
it was still and it was still scary because it moved. Yes,

(01:45:41):
it's the way it moved. It's it's such like a
like it the movement has that like creeping like in
it of like this malevolent thing is going. Yeah, which
that could be because someone's tugging on it with fishing line,
But why would a pre in a priest video talking
about that want to make the devil look more legitimate?

(01:46:04):
And in the same way that I felt like the
Headstone video was like framed in a way to make
a guy look heroic, this one's kind of set up
in a way that makes him look ridiculous. Yeah, yeah,
which I think at the very least, if somebody did
this as a prank, it wasn't the guy in the

(01:46:26):
video setting up. But yeah, I think that there's a
visceral way that I feel sometimes when I watch something
that I if I'm just going by my like feeling
that I would have said that was real, but also
so I used to work at a pie shop, and
I think I've talked about these things, but stuff would
happen at the pie shop for context, this is important context.

(01:46:48):
The owner's daughter would do seances there after hours, so
as one does as one, and there were times stuff
would fly off the counters and it would do it
at an angle where it was like this didn't just
fall because of gravity, like it fell out and then down.
There was one time a server that was like it
was set in a pie tin with pine in it,
and it like just went directly ninety degree angle into

(01:47:09):
the like yeah, stuff that Like. There was one time
where three of us were standing facing each other and
a soda bottle top. We all saw it just like
appear in mid air. So if it was falling from before,
that's when we all noticed. It fell straight down, did
not bounce just like just land a plunk. And it

(01:47:29):
was a bottle to like the Izzy brand izz soda
that we sold there. And I made this joke, Its
like we're going to open a box later, like a
brand new box and we're gonna find one missing a lid. Yeah,
three weeks later like open like it was sealed. It
was like a like glued shut box. We opened it,
there was one without a lid that was like partially
empty and full of mold, and it was like, there's

(01:47:51):
something weird, yeah going on here, And I again, I
felt those things, not to the same extent that you did,
but I did feel them, YEA. Coincidentally, it was an
easy glass soda bottle that I broke my front tooth on. Yeah,
I was thinking that was mymessiszy. It's really yummy. It's

(01:48:13):
like it's poor carminated fruit juice. Why did you Was
it just like you actually raised it too fast? Yeah,
it was like the day before Thanksgiving. We were like
so that I was really thirsty and I was just
moving so fast. I like pulled the bottle back to
my mouth and I just like, oh, there's been a
couple of times I've done that with a mug where
for a while I was like, I'm only drinking from
straws because I'm afraid that I won't do the way

(01:48:34):
I'm happy. The rest of the day, I was like, yeah,
I have a chip. I forget which chooth it is
like here, I think I have chips in both these
from separate things. But there was one time at Sunday school.
This girl and I were singing at each other like
we were just getting into the music and we like
both lean forward at the same time. And and of
course I was the only one who got a chip,
and it was like this little crumbly feeling, and I

(01:48:55):
was like, they're gonna yell at me. Thought I thought
that my parents were gonna be mad at me for
like accidentally injuring my tooth, like I don't know why.
But and then we went to the dentist and just
put like a little sealant on it and then the
seilant just come off. Yeah it does. It doesn't bother me.
I remember when I went to the dentist and they
were trying to talk me into a visile line, and
they were like, you should get a visil line because
your front tooth is like just slightly twisted so that

(01:49:17):
it looks like it's chipped. And I'm like, no, it's
it's chipped. A dentist would probably be cognizant of that.
Person was like, oh, like I think that they thought
they were trying to be supportive and like you could
just you could fix this. No, no, I could, I
could fix this. Different procedure than different procedure. Yeah, okay,

(01:49:40):
where are we? I was thinking we're at we could
do one more video the lady prays against that's not
a nice face, okay, because it ties into the conversation
of is our demons actually just demons? Or I really
liked this? This is shoot? Is it most disturbing thing?
Kind of camera? I thought I had caught up? Think?

(01:50:00):
So let me just look in because I sent it
to you on a couple things Instagrams. Maybe I thought
I was seeing If not, I think this is another
one that Brooke sent me that I might be able
to fall. The one I sent you the second from

(01:50:20):
the bottom of our most recent messages. So it's the
one that says knowing your identity in Christ means knowing
the authority He gave you to use his name. Is
that what you were thinking? You can't send me that one?
This is This isn't a messages. This is in Instagram.
Oh this is an Instagram that I sent you. You
sent it to me, and then I send it to
you a little bit later. Okay, Oh, there's another video

(01:50:41):
I sent you on Instagram that I forgot about. I'm
going to write that down, but okay, we can do
that next year. Oh yes, okay, and you're not sharing
your screen. Okay, let's see. I'm glad. I looked at Instagram. Yeah,
this is this is one that I think. It was
just going around so much in our circles that I
saw it and then I and you. I was like, oh,

(01:51:01):
I have a video for you for this episode, and
then you send it to me before I send it
to you, and I was like, oh, you actually know
I send it after. But so I just hadn't looked
at my messages from you. Oh yeah, okay, Oh yes,
I'm pretty sure because here's here's Brooke. It's just plute blog. Yeah.
The fact that the cats circled you when you started
reviewing Evil really shook me. Dude, Okay, yes, let's watch

(01:51:23):
the Cats. Knowing your indenity in Christ means knowing the
authority he gave you to use his name this. Yeah,
And I do like the song that plays in the background.
And this is definitely a baby monitor situation, I believe. Yeah,
because this is a child's room. I think, Yeah, I
think I'm just I don't know. It could be both. Yeah,
I took it as living room, living room with a
bunch of child's toys. Yeah, the mine. So it starts

(01:51:50):
off with the little boy sitting on the couch and
then he clearly sees something and gets and he's immediately distressed.
He keeps looking back at at it even as he's
like running away from it, crying, going to his mom.
And I would also like to point out, I'm really
glad that they have the music that loud, because I
was worried i'd be able to hear what the people
were saying. I do wish that the overlay wasn't quite solid.

(01:52:12):
But that's not a happy face, he says. Which this
is another thing that's a very kid is That's not
a thing that an adult comes up with to put
in a skit. And he's saying something like this is
a very good child actor for an actor, if he's
an actor. Yeah, there's no way here. It's like she's

(01:52:46):
not able to see it. He's like there there, She's
like where there where there? Oh my god? Which is
which is again like this is not how an adult
would frame it if she, as the mom, was trying
to make herself looks good. Which also side note, real quick, sorry,
there was one point where a woman came into Mom's
up a pie and she was like, is this place haunted?
And we were like, we do you think that there's

(01:53:06):
something going on here? But out of curiosity? What makes
you think that? She's like, well, my kid was like
there was a bad looking man next to that sign,
that person there, and we were like, oh, I remember that.
There was one night. It was a different apartment. It was, yes,

(01:53:27):
but you weren't there that night for some reason, or
you weren't back yet that night. I think you did
come back that night, but you weren't back yet. And
I saw a face on the other side of the glass.
It was like you were there. I was there. So
I met you at the door and I was like
making a silly face and you started crying yes, and
you're like I saw something else between you and me. Yes,

(01:53:48):
Oh my god. Oh And that was that was the
night something was trying to break into my house before.
That was why you came home early. It's because someone
kept trying the door. Oh, so it's hard to something
weird happening. I have never been so creeped out in
my life. I started crying in terror. Yeah, it was,
it was. It wasn't there's something I have been like

(01:54:10):
holding back emotion a little bit in this episode ever
since talking about the suicide house, Yes, because I think
that there's a level of like now that I haven't
lived in these places for long enough and I'm looking
back at it like holy crap. But that night it
was like it wasn't just terror, It was like hurt

(01:54:35):
that something that evil could get that close to me.
Almost there was like this is my house. There was
a lot in that house, and that was where like
something tugged on my shirt at one point, like really hard,
like pinched me as I was doing it. That was
a difficult house to be in. My My impression was
that there was something in the land land people and
lady and landlord were doing that was inviting something bad,

(01:54:56):
because at one point, either that or you know, there
was something that I was on a way wherever you
were unaware of that we were doing. Because at one
point I had a lady come for my church and
we prayed over the house and it felt so much
brighter and so much more open, and the cat started
coming back up on the patio. There wasn't that cold
spot on the patio anymore, but it did start gradually
creeping back and that's the house where I had sleep paralysis. Yeah,
but it wasn't. I wasn't sleep but it was like

(01:55:17):
it tried to strangle me at one point, and it
climbed into bed with me at another point. Anyway, that's
a whole were about another episode. Yeah, there was some
creepy stuff in the town that we had to drive through.

Speaker 2 (01:55:27):
Yes, there was.

Speaker 1 (01:55:28):
There was one woman who would like hang up there
in the middle of the night, and like I almost
hit her one night. It was really so there's a
couple days in a row. It wasn't all the time.
I was driving early. It was like probably six or
seven in the morning, and I had to slow down
at a stop sign because it was like a traffic squirrel,
and she started walking directly toward my car, and I
swear she did not have whites of her eyes. She
was definitely possessed. There was there was one night it

(01:55:50):
was extremely late, it might have been two in the morning,
that I was driving home and I almost hit her.
I was like, what is a human doing in the road.
Yeah yeah, but anyway, okay, we should watch our Resist City.
Can you show me kind of look to see it

(01:56:10):
pers air. I do. That's yeah. So she's looking directly
at like the corner of the couch where she seems
to have run from, right, because she knows like where
it was, the exact flop. Yeah, yeah, yeah where no

(01:56:32):
supper here. Yeah, the cats are starting a circle. Yeah,
the cats are certain. Thing is like, it's still there.
It's not like he just saw something really quickly. He's
still seeing this the whole time, terrified and also probably
distressed of like mom isn't able to help because she's
not seeing it right.

Speaker 3 (01:56:48):
Yeah, is it a big person?

Speaker 1 (01:56:53):
Person?

Speaker 3 (01:56:55):
A person? Yeah, I can land anything evil and this
has to leave. We are covered in the blood of
Jesus Christ. You are demand to leave out of this
house now. We are covered in the blood of Jesus Christ.
If there's anything in this house, you are demanded to
leave and go off into the of this You are
not welcome here in Jesus' name. Leave now? Is it

(01:57:16):
still there?

Speaker 1 (01:57:20):
I also love how from this angle the cat circling
it looks like fish swimming in the water. Yeah. But yeah,
that's it was really well done on her part too,
because she's not saying I demand you to leave. She
says you are demanded in the name of Jesus. She's
just she's making it and it's not it's not to
say that you can't. Yeah, there's not like a right
way to do it. But I think that that her

(01:57:42):
focus was very much on it is because of the
blood of Jesus that you can't be here. Yeah, Like
we are claimed by by God's blood. Right, You're you're
not welcome, right, And it's immediate, yes, Like she doesn't
have to sit there in like because my and this
is something extra biblical. But this is what's been explained
to me is that demons are very legalistic and so

(01:58:04):
if if what is it, like if the authority of
like this is my space and this is my claim
and it's claimed by the Lord, they have to go.
But this is where I found that MM when we
were renting from other people, particularly when we were renting
a shared space like somebody's basement, yeah, and they lived

(01:58:28):
upstairs that we had a lot more trouble with with
demonic stuff. When we were renting that house that had
been like our grandmother knew it was haunted from back
when she used to play with it, play in that house,
play with the ghosts in the house. Yeah, play in
the play in the house in Maine. First. Yeah, but
I remember our grandmother telling us, oh, yeah, I used

(01:58:51):
to play in that haunted house when I was a kid.
It's always been haunted. Yeah, And she was like, Hahi,
you guys are living in the haunted The neighbors also
were like, h you live on the house on Indian
parallel ground. Yeah. Yeah, So like everybody, everybody knew and
had known for like two generations that that house was haunted.
Like our grandmother when she was a little girl, knew
that the house was haunted, and we knew the house

(01:59:12):
was haunted when we were living well, we knew that
there were weird things in the house when we were
living in it. Okay, yeah, but and and when John
and I rented a little house, it wasn't a shared space.
It felt much safer inside, but outside it than it didn't. Yes, yeah,
there was the land felt sick. And also I don't know,

(01:59:37):
I think we've talked about that. We've talked about it,
we can talk about it. But the point I was
getting to was it wasn't until John and I owned
our house, yes, that I felt like we are living
in a good, clean safe place. Yes, where very rarely
do I feel like, oh I should you know, there's
a little something I feel like I want to pray
against that, like crept in just a little bit because

(01:59:57):
of somebody I allowed into the house, but not like
pretty pretty easily left, not something that just felt like
it gripped the house the whole time I lived there,
which is the case on almost every place we ever rented.
And I'm currently renting a room in a house and
I have had nothing happened in this house that has
felt supremely safe. There was a couple of times, I

(02:00:18):
think a couple nights in a row where I felt
like something was circling around the property but it couldn't
get in. Yeah, but the house you're renting is owned
by Christians, And I was gonna say. I spoke to
her and I was like, I have never felt like
this is that weird, But I've never felt safer spiritually
in house in here, And she was like, when we
moved in, because they bought the house years ago, we
had a bunch of people come in and pray over

(02:00:39):
it that it would be like a hydro protection from them.
You're something specific, Yeah, And I was like, yeah, no,
you can tell, and you can tell that she you know,
and like it's interesting because like one of the a
couple of the other places we rented were ostensibly rented
from Christians. Yeah, but I think one of one of them,

(02:00:59):
like we said, it wasn't so much a demon as
just that despair, that spirit of despair that was over
that house. But I'm trying to think there was. Oh
and the other like quite a bit safer. One that
I felt was the parsonage that we rented, Yes, and

(02:01:20):
I have very little memory of that one. Yeah, okay, wait, No, No,
which parsonage, the latest one, the one that I left
for college while our parents were still in that house. No,
something tried to push me down the stairs in that one. Okay,
so you remember how the staircase goes and there's like
the oh yeah, I remember the there's like a handrail
and the parents' bedroom on that side. I this might

(02:01:42):
be when you were already at college. I forget. I
hated having to do chores because I had to vacuum,
which the parents' room had carpet, and I hated going
to the parents room. It felt like something was like
like there was a darkness in the ceiling. It felt
like I sound like I have schizophrenia. My proof is
that I don't still have this stuff. It felt like
there was a darkness that hated me. I proved that
I didn't have schizophrenias. And yeah, and I was walking

(02:02:05):
by the parents' bedroom, so their doorways on one side,
the railing that looks over the staircases on the other,
and something shoved me, and something shoved me in the
opposite direction, pushing me back. And I never walked by
it alone in the house again, except if I was
like singing something with the name of Jesus in it.
But yeah, no, that Like, I think it's interesting because
I think that that house got more dangerous the longer

(02:02:26):
we once we were in it. So and I want,
I do want to say things did kind of change
after you went to college. It felt darker. And part
of this was I did have post concussion syndrome for
the last year, but it reached a point and even
while you were still there were I just assumed there
were something going on with my eyes because it just
like I needed so much, like because I felt like

(02:02:48):
there were shadows closing in on my eyes. And it
took me a second to realize when I moved to Virginia,
that wasn't it didn't stay with me in Virginia, or
it wasn't anything wrong with my eyes. Yeah you yeah,
we this is becoming a therapy session. But I there
was an incredible urgency in my mind to get you

(02:03:08):
out to hear And when you got here, I was like,
oh my god, it is so much worse than I thought,
Like she is so much farther gone than I thought.
And it took a long time to bring you back.
And I can't take credit for it, Like it's not like,
oh I brought her back. It was just like you
had to get out of that. Yeah. I think I
initially just kind of crashed because there's a moment after

(02:03:29):
you come out of bad situation where you it still
catches up with you for how bad it is, because
for a while you are living and you have to
live in a certain state of denial because if you
realize how bad your situation is, you can't live in it. Yeah. So,
for the first I want to say, like six months
or so, I would like stay up till three am
just watching YouTube videos because I just like I couldn't rest.

(02:03:50):
I couldn't settle, and that was partially due to the
post concussion syndrome. Yeah, you were losing a lot of
time as well. Yes, yeah, not from schizophronia, but just
like just very much. I'm not I don't think less
super heads get me. But there was even a period
where like looking at my own self in the mirror,

(02:04:12):
like my own eyes scared me, and that to me
is alien enough, Like I don't I don't even really
have that issue now. So something it was like within
you know, those few months after moving back, that like
something was even wronger than probably I will ever uh that. Yeah, yeah, okay,
so let's do an outro and then we'll come back

(02:04:33):
and do part two because this is gonna be We're
gonna have enough for another episode. I'm sor right, Yeah,
we're gonna finish. You'll see us in the same clothes.
We're gonna keep recording. I'm actually gona probably put a
sweater on. You will not see us in the same clothes.
Will be happy in the same clothes. All right, good
night for now, We'll see you in a few minutes.
In a week. Webber b

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