The Soul Sleep Question

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:51):
Hello, and welcome to alternatively season one episode fifteen, which
I think is going to be entitled Soul Sleep, Ghosts
and Demons. This is a This is a Liz episode,
which the majority of episodes are going to be for
for a bit if you missed, if you missed last

(01:11):
week's episode and the announcements at the end, John, my husband,
John is joining the West Virginia National Guard. At least
that's what the things. Something could happen at the very
last minute to change things, but the plan is that
he is joining, uh, swearing in at the beginning of
next month, uh, and then going to be at basic

(01:34):
at some point between now and like February. We don't
know yet, so just some refer back to that show
for the specifics of what that means for the show.
But one thing is is that Liz is taking over
a bit more of of the weight because I'm going
to even starting now, my bandwidth is significantly limited as

(01:57):
we prep for John being gone on and yeah, so
we'll figure out that more and and uh, it'll be
a little bit of trial and trial and error. But Liz,
you and me have been talking about this episode, and
you doing this episode for I feel like you should
be here for a while. Yes, this isn't gonna be

(02:21):
quite the episode you pictured, because it's gonna be like
the the groundwork and the beginning, like, Okay, we're gonna
lay some groundwork for opening up discussion. What I basically
did was I wanted to talk about ghosts, and in
order to talk about ghosts, I had to go sidetrack
and do a lot of research on soul sleep. Okay,
we'll talk about that, So that's gonna be the most
of this episode, and then we will talk about ghosts.

(02:43):
But then we might if there's time. I don't know,
like I mean, things are kind of up in the
air in terms of how many shows we're gonna get
done before we go on break. Yes, so it's possible
that I will get to these shows before break, or
they'll just be something that I have in the works
for when we come back. But I would like to
deally do the the actual ghost show that we wanted

(03:04):
to do after this one, and then one on exorcism
and like what the Bible has demons and stuffy but all
very loose. Yes, I am very excited for all this because,
like you've been talking about it, just yes, for a while,
and soulsip is something that I know has been pretty
hotly debated theologically, but it's not something like I've ever

(03:24):
cared enough to dig super into. But I'm now I'm
really interested. And Liz has like a bazillion Bible tabs.
I was just going with her before we started about
I don't know if we have enough scripture to back
up your position here, go back to the drawing board.
So let's let's get into it, Liz. So basically, first
of all, before we start this, let's pray, yes, pray,

(03:46):
dear Lord, please uh do it? Thank you for this day.
I was like, where do I go from here? Thank
you for this day? Thank you for uh Liz being
over here and for the research that she's done and
how the bolically grounded this episode is going to be.
Please bless us with it, Please bless the community, and

(04:08):
just give us a discernment for these things and direct us,
direct us in the right directions for for our thinking
on these things. In your name, Amen. Also, the way
you started your prayer reminded me back when I worked
at Chick fil A. One of my coworkers told me
about one time when she was outside or sorry. She
was on headset. So I'm pulled up to the menu

(04:28):
and she was like, welcome to Chick fil A. Can
you help me? Help me? I don't know all right anyway,
So I think, first of all, I understand this is
probably going to trigger some people. And I'm not saying
that in like a trollish way. I just from my experience,

(04:49):
I know that a lot of people get really scared
we even bring up the topic of soul sleep, like
to a level like I don't remember. I don't know
if you remember a certain person that we were in
to co op with where the conversation got brought up. Yeah,
you remember, and she was just like she shut the
conversation down before any questions could be asked or it
could be even discussed of like this thing. Like, I

(05:13):
have trouble respecting any stance where you are not even
willing to discuss it and where you get fearful when
you're when your position is questioned and aren't willing to
produce your proof of it. Right, I think that there
are topics that you should avoid, like like the the
the specifics of Aleister Crowley's magic, for example, that's a

(05:37):
conversation that should be shut down. Yeah, yeah, or something
that you're not shutting it down out of fear, you're
shutting it down out of like that's really cruel. Let's
not go there, like some of the conspiracy theories around uh,
particularly Erica Kirk, Like, I am not going to sit
here and entertain those, not because I'm I don't have
the courage to because you have a heart. Yeah, because

(06:00):
I have a heart, yes, But this is not one
of them. This is this is I mean, like you said,
the vast majority of the time, if you're not willing
to have a conversation about something, especially like a biblical question, yeah, especially,
And I do want to kind of give a parameter here.
So this is a no Wrong Questions. This isn't the
No Wrong Questions Bible podcast because we're not doing a

(06:21):
Bible study episode, but it's in the spirit of such
because we are kind of doing a lot of building
your favor work basically also moving back a little bit,
this is going to be a very Bible heavy episode.
The reason being is that I want to talk about
the topic of ghosts and demons from a Biblical framework,
like from that foundation. So I understand if you're not
a believer. This might not be as interesting to you,
but you are still welcome to stick around because maybe

(06:42):
it will be interesting to you. Well, I would challenge
you if you don't believe in the Bible as a
religious text or as God's word. It's still a historical work.
It's an extensive historical work written by a lot of
different authors, so probably, I mean, I would take it
as informative as far as like what the Christian mythology

(07:04):
believes about these things. So what I'm trying to do
is ask questions in line with stuff that is obedient
to scripture or that is not disproved by scripture, because
if the Bible makes something clear that it's not going
to be true, then I'm just not going to go
down to the rising about that anyway. I will say, though,

(07:24):
in the spirit of the No Wrong Questions Bible podcast,
it's okay to ask a question, especially if you are
coming at it with a mindset of let's see what
the Bible has to say, and not like, what can
I make the Bible say, yeah, what I want. Yes,
there are no wrong questions, but there are wrong leading questions. Yes,
there's a wrong way to approach research. And then there
are right ways to approach research, and also keeping in

(07:47):
mind that this is not a hill to die on,
like the topic of soul sleep for some people it is.
I don't consider it to be a hill to die
on because it's not a selvi ific issue. It's not
an issue of salvation. We're not debating, you know, any
of the points that are are kind of, in my opinion,
untouchable in terms of heresy, because I've been called a
heretic for even talking about this. Heresy is anything that

(08:09):
prevents someone from salvation. So if I were to say
something contrary to what the Bible says about how we're saved,
and you believe me and then you're not saved, I
have led you in heresy. Asking something like this is
maybe questioning someone's sort of firmly held belief, but it's
not heresy. It's like the Michael Scott meme of like
I'm the victim of a hate crime. It wasn't a crime,

(08:31):
well I hated it or whatever it was. I like
how because in my mind there's like three different levels here.
There's heresy, things that prevent people from salvation. There's things
that you could make an argument prevent people from salvation
or but they don't really like the Calvinism, our Minion
Armenianism to be I understand why people are like about that,

(08:53):
because I think that there are implications about the nature
of God, and I think that that can be really
heat but it doesn't actually at the end of the day,
it's not actually self effic But then there's like the
tertiary things were like it It really really really really
doesn't have anything to do with whether or not you're saved.
Like all this does is kind of instruct the edges

(09:16):
of our framework. I would also just like to note
real quick, we are both named Liz. Oh no, wait,
it doesn't usually show. I know, there we go. Hi,
I'm Liz, and I'm live. We're We're all Liz. I
had another thought ahead, No, go ahead, it's gone. It

(09:36):
may come back. We'll just cut me off if it
comes back. So yeah, So my experiences that people are
fearful of this. So I grew up believing, and I
should I should clarify the stances. I grew up believing
that soul sleep is wrong. So the anti soul sleep
stance is twofold. There is when you when you die

(10:00):
as a believer, your spirit goes straight to Heaven, your
body stays, and if you're a non believer, when you die,
your spirit goes directly to Hell or your spirit or
your soul. For the purposes of the beginning of this discussion,
I am going to just refer to spirit and soul
like interchangeably. They are different things in the Bible, and
there's a lot more debate. We're going to talk about
that at the end of it. Awesome a little bit.
So that's what we were taught growing up. And then

(10:23):
there is the I don't know if it's the official
anti soul sleep stance or just another version where the
Christians go directly to Heaven, but the souls of the
unbelievers go to Shield, which is like that holding place. Oh,
and then at the final resurrection indeugument day, they'll go
to Hell. Okay, So those are the two stances, and

(10:43):
then the soul sleep stance is basically and this is
my perception of it, so maybe I'm just making up
my own thing and calling it that name. Is that
when you die, whether you're a believer or an unbeliever,
your spirit or soul remains in your body and sort
of like a hibernation almost like it's a sleep. It's
not conscious necessarily, and as it waits for the judgment
to come. And then there's two there's two resurrections. There's

(11:06):
a resurrection of the believers, and then there's a resurrection
of the unbelievers, and you know that's when they wake up. Okay,
And so I remind you I approach from the non
soul slap stance, and I started looking into it because
I forget exactly the context, but I wanted to know
certain things about like ghosts, like because I haven't super
been satisfied with the ghosts or just demons explanation okay,

(11:29):
mainly because no one in the nowhere in the New
Testament ever does it specify the demons are fallen angels.
And I've just been so thoroughly told that that's what
the case is. So it's kind of I would like
to see the work. These things might be true, but
I would like to see the work of how you
got there, like the geometrical proof, so to speak. Right, Okay,
So as I started doing this research, I started feeling like,

(11:52):
I don't think the Emperor's wearing close right now. I
would look up proofs against it, and I'm like, that's
that versusn't proving that that's not what that saying someone's
reading something in And so like I approach it with
the stance of, let's try to disprove my viewpoint, because
that's the scientific I try to disprove sole sleep Ah yes, yeah, okay,

(12:12):
So I just want to find in my notes to
make sure I'm not skipping something. Also, also, I would
just like to make it clear I'm not trying to
convince you to believe one thing or another. So if
you at the end of this you're like, this is funk.
I hate you, Liz, I don't believe that's fine. I'm
not gonna be offended. I am actually like, I know where
I've kind of landed, but it's not a hill that
I would die on or a hill that I would

(12:33):
kill on. Oh yeah, right before the stream you were like,
that's a weird hill to die on, but at least
you're dead' That was my addition. You know you're good.
I thank you. I think you. So this is just
like my next entry into my growing theory of everything
where I'm just trying to make like a framework for everything.
So this is me inviting you to come along in

(12:54):
my research in my brain thoughts, and yeah, okay, so
we're going to look at this GOT Questions article. That's
kind of a handy summary of the opposing viewpoint. It's
not the entirety of it. So we'll delve into some
other stuff. But do you mind in beginning that a
little bit? In beginning it, yes, I would say I

(13:15):
believe in you, but I don't mess a thorling kind
Oh did I just do that? Or did you? It
was it was me? Oh did it? No? I hate maximize.
Maybe I did that. I didn't realize I had power.
I thought that's just for my screen. So you can
scroll down a little bit because this kind of gives
just like a summary, and I kind of just want
to get into some of the verses talking about. So

(13:37):
we're mainly going to cover I think those two paragraphs
right there. Okay, So, uh, First, for the believer in
Jesus Christ, the Bible tells us that after death, believers
soul slash spirits are taken to heaven because their sins
were forgiven when they received Christ as savior. For believers,
death means being away from the body and at home
with the Lord. However, passages such as First Corinthians fifteen
fifty to fifty four and First Thessalonians four thirteen to

(13:57):
seventeen describe believers being resurrected and given glorified bodies. If
believers go to be with Christ immediately after death, what
is the purpose of this resurrection. It seems that while
the soul's spirits of believers go to be with Christ
immediately at death, the physical body remains in the grave
of sleeping. At the resurrection of believers, the physical body
is resurrected, glorified, and reunited with the soul slash spirit.

(14:18):
This reunited and glorified body soul spirit will be the
state of existence for believers for eternity in the new
heavens and New Earth. Second, for those who do not
receive Jesus Christ as savior, death means everlasting punishment. However,
similar to the destiny of believers, it seems that unbelievers
also go to a temporary holding place to await their
final resurrection judgment and eternal destiny. Luke sixteen twenty two
to twenty three describes a rich man being tormented immediately

(14:40):
after the death or after death Revelation twenty eleven to
fifteen describes all the unbelieving dead being resurrected, judged at
the Great White Throne, and cast into the Lake of Fire.
Unbelievers then are not sent to the final hell, the
lake of fire, immediately after death. Rather, they are sent
to a temporary realm of fiery judgment. In anguish, the
rich man cried out, I am an agony in this fire.

(15:01):
We can just peek at that last paragraph, and you
guys are welcome to read it, but it's not really
kind of addressing soul slate. But at that point, okay, okay,
as I recall more like the location of yeah, it's
talking about more abou like the final judgment stuff. I
think we're going to just tangentially cover some of those things,
all right, So I'm going to break down their objections
and I'm going to add a few more that they
didn't include, okay, because I would like to. I feel

(15:24):
like if I don't object the address the objections first,
that's all people are going to hear as I'm talking,
which is fine because that would be what I would do.
So they first bring up John three sixteen eighteen and
thirty six kind of it's proof of the assertion that
we go to have and immediately after we die, or like,
that's where the soul goes. Do those versus state that
I don't know if you still have them up, I
should have asked you to highlight them. That's my ball.
Oh that's what I wait. Wait versus John three sixteen,

(15:47):
eighteen thirty six. So if you have the article up
and you just hover over their references, it shows you
the thing the article already. No, no, no, I can pull I
can pull it up and I can read the things off.
You guys need to be able to see them because
you can just trust that I'm not making up things.
I think most people know. John three sixteen me right, exactly.
There's that. So John three sixteen for God's love the
whole world sor for God to love the world, that
he gave his only son, that whoever believes in him

(16:09):
should not perish but have eternal life. And then verse
eighteen is whoever believes in him is not condemned, but
whoever does not believe is condemned already because he has
not believed in the name of the only son of God.
And then thirty six is whoever believes in the sun
has eternal life. Whoever does not obey the Sun shall
not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
What I find interesting here, and I think this is
like a good example of my issues with their arguments,

(16:32):
is the verse does not actually state anything about going
to heaven immediately after we die. It's a prime example
of like when you add your assumption onto the text,
like a preloaded thought that goes with something sure. So
they read shall not perish, but have everlasting life, and
they they read that to me, their spirit will leave
their dead body and immediately go to heaven. The text
isn't even talking about bodies. It's talking about souls, because

(16:55):
like if it we're talking about bodies, it would be
like wrong because Christians dan roches like ever know. Right,
it's so saying souls will not die. But their assumption
then is that if souls don't die, that means that
when our bodies do, the souls have to go to heaven.
Does it even say that we won't die or that
we will have eternal life, shall not perish, but have
eternal life, shall not perish? Okay, right? And no, no,

(17:17):
you're good. So the parish is referring to like the
second death, the which the unbelievers experience at the judgment,
which we'll get to. So this is kind of an
example of going a step further than what the dress
what the verse says, which you can extrapolate in scripture,
but you do have to make sure that your extrapolations
are measured against what the rest of scripture says. So

(17:38):
we're we're going to kind of look at a few
more where it just like it seems like they're adding
something as an assumption that isn't actually explicitly said. Sure,
so let's look at it a second. Corinthians five. For
we know that if the tent that is our earthly
home is destroyed, we have a building from God, a
house not made with hands eternal in the heavens. For

(17:59):
in this tent we grown longing to put on our
heavenly dwelling, if indeed, by putting it on, we may
not be found naked. For while we are still in
this tent, we grown being burdened, not that we would
be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so
that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
He who has prepared us for this very thing, is God,
who has given us the spirit as a guarantee. He
mean sculn is a little bit. So we are always

(18:22):
of good courage. We know that while we are at
home in the body, we are away from the Lord,
for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we
are of good courage, and we would rather be away
from the body and at home with the Lord. So
whether we are at home or away, we make it
our aim to please Him. For we must all appear
before the judgment seed of Christ, so that each one
may receive what is his due, for what is due
for what he has done in the body, whether good

(18:43):
or evil. And you can leave that up still if
you want, because I might refer to it again this verse. Yeah,
I don't remember ever even reading him before. I know
I have read it before, but it hit me weird.
For while we are still in verse four. For while
we are still in this tent, we grow and being burdened,
not that we would be unclothed, but that we would
be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be

(19:04):
swallowed up by life. So like almost this whole, it's
not that we want to be rid of our bodies.
It's that we want to be more embodied. So the
reason that he's saying that, and you were good to
catch that, he's writing this passage to address gnostics. Ah.
So the gnostics stance is matter is evil, Spirit is good.

(19:25):
So the thing that you look forward to in death
is your soul or your spirit finally being free of
your body. And so he's saying, well, no, no, no,
we're not going to go We're not doing this dualist
thing of separate spirits that our body like we we
are we are spirit and we are body, but they're
they're linked. And we're not going to do this thing
where oh we're getting rid of this one evil thing.

(19:48):
Like God intended us to be both body and spirit.
So when we die, we're going to trade our earthly
body for our heavenly body. We're not just going to
be you know, disembodied spirits and eternity. Right. So this
passage to me with regards to soul sleep, I do
not consider it conclusive either way. There's two main things
that are used here. What is the nature of the

(20:09):
heavenly dwelling that's referred to and then to be absent
from the body is to be present with the Lord, which,
if you'll know, that's verse eight is often quoted as
to be absent bodies, to be absent from the bodies,
to be present from the Lord. But several translations I
looked at. In fact, I couldn't even find the original
one easily. I think it's KJV. Maybe. Yes, we are
good courage and we would rather be away from the

(20:30):
body and at home with the Lord. So it's not
even making that dichotomy. It's just saying we don't want
to be in the body, we want to be with
the Lord. The dichotomy was to be present in the bodies,
to be absent from the Lord. Yeah, right, So when
we are in our earthly bodies, we are not in
the presence of the Lord. We would rather be away

(20:50):
from our earthly bodies and in the presence of the Lord.
But it's not saying the minute you are absent from
the body, you are present with the Lord, right, or
at least in that translate. Let's see, I gotta find mysspot.
So I want to dress zero point two first, the
absent from the body present with the Lord. When our
soul is absent for the body, it is present with

(21:10):
the Lord. If we're going by that you know interpretation.
But and this is a big butt Do we know
for sure that our soul leaves our body at the
moment of our death? Right are we still with our
body for in a while? If our soul remains sleeping
in our body as it waits for the final resurrection
and judgment, it is therefore inherently not absent from the body.
So this is where I find it kind of like
it's a straw man for people to use that verse

(21:31):
against soul sleep because it's like, you're not even addressing
what soul sleep is. You're you're still agreeing. So that's
not to say that there are not strong proofs against
soul sleep. That's not one of them. So when I
see someone using that as their strongest proof, I'm like,
I don't think you have the stance you think you do,
which makes me question how you got to that point.
Sure your work was, I feel like I cut you off.

(21:52):
Do you have something you're doing to say earlier? No, No,
I'm just taking I think I'm just solely taking things
in and if I'm moving too fast, no, you're gonna
I'm just trying to, like cramp a bunch of stuff in.
So I'm going to talk two times speed. Do it?
This is real? That was like he said, Ben Shapiro,
Lee really fast, go ahead. I feel like a fast

(22:12):
who talks people who talk. So I have this audiobook
that I'm listening to it two times speed because the
audio narrator is like and she walked down the hill,
and it like read faster anyway, very very annoying. Probably
paid by the hour. So I do I do want
to address these two lines from the article. We don't
have to pull it back up because I've got them here.

(22:33):
They say it seems that while the soul slash spirits
of believers go to be with Christ immediately at death,
the physical body remains in the grave sleeping. At the
resurrection of believers, the physical body is resurrected, glorified, and
reunited with the soul spirit. Oh that's what they're saying.
I don't see that in the Bible right at all.
And I don't know who writes these articles. There might

(22:53):
be plenty of people who are anti soul sleep who
don't say that. But I did encounter that a little
bit in another source, which we'll get to sure. But
In my opinion, from what I'm seeing, this contradicts what
Tewond Corinthians five is saying, because I think I think
it's being thrown out as an attempt to cope with
some other passages we're going to talk about that. Do
you refer to the dead sleeping in the dust like

(23:13):
I think they're like, okay, well there there are these
verses about this of how do we kind of make
this fit with what we were already saying. So Second
Corinthians is alluding to the Tabernacle being replaced with the temples.
So our earthly tents are our bodies here, those are
going to be cast off and replaced with the glorified
permanent dwelling, just as the Tabernacle was replaced with the temple.
Nowhere does the passage say or earthly dwelling will be

(23:35):
turned into a heavenly dwelling, but rather that it will
be replaced by it, just as the Tabernacle was not
turned into the Temple, but it was replaced by it.
It's important to note, yeah, but in that same way,
it's it's like it was swallowed up by the new tabernacle.
Because what a lot of the key elements the arc
and like all of those things were used, and that's

(23:57):
what I was about to say, It's important to know
you're good. The furnishings removed into the temple in this parallel,
I would argue that those furnishings are the soul being
moved from one twelve in to another. Does that fit
with your line of thinking? I was a that was
to make does that mean our our heart kidneys? Oh? Shoot,
so if I sold my kidney, don't worry about that guy,

(24:18):
So don't That was that was a joke that the furnishing.
But are there more furnishings than just the soul? Well,
I think the cumulative of the furnishings. I don't think
it were doing like a one four one ratio. Is
just like the insides move and the insides are the
heart and the kidneys part of the kidneys. Thank you.
We're gonna pause real quick. I do think the interpretation

(24:42):
that the God Questions has is super duper problematic because
it has led to people being afraid of things like cremation. MM.
We're the idea of I have to keep my physical
body intact or I can't be resurrected at the end,
and then I can't get a glorified body. God is
not limited by what means to you. Chris get burned
as persecution, right. I think that if God's plan was

(25:04):
contingent on our body not going away, you do know
the body's rot, right, and they turned to bones and
then the bones turned down to dust like the literal
first Well, yeah, some of the first verses in the
Bible about dying is like you will go back to dust. Yeah,
from dusty came and dust you will to return. So
and the whole like you know, are our body is

(25:27):
cursed by sin, like the consequence of sin is death. Therefore,
why is God like, well, I need this sinful body
in order to make the glorified one. Because there's another
verse we'll talk about later of will have an a
dwelling not made by hands, to indicate, you know, this
is a heavenly body. So anyway, I think that that's
the thing that they're getting stuck up on where they're like, well,
the Bible talks about the souls. I mean, the body

(25:49):
is sleeping, so it's important that we keep the body sleeping.
And I think it's it's one er relating to another
in my opinion, But we'll keep addressing that. So, uh,
let's see where am I going? I got ahead of myself.
So yeah, so they have this predisposition to see heaven

(26:09):
as a holding place or sorry, heaven is the destination
of the soul. In hell's the holding place. So they're
kind of like forcing those passages to talk about that.
But let's look at another objection that God Questions doesn't
include because it would kind of deny what they're saying,
but it is often used as an objection. Okay, it's
Hebrews nine twenty seven to twenty eight. Okay. So, and

(26:33):
just as it is appointed for man to die once
and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered
once to bear the sins of many, will appear a
second time, not to deal with sin, but to save
those who are eagerly waiting for him. So this section
of Versus is a conclusive argument against reincarnation. Oh yes,
we die once we face judgment. We don't get a

(26:54):
second life. What this passage isn't saying is that the
judgment follows a split second after the death. Right were
going well, especially because God's outside of time and so
we're going into an outside of time exactly yet like
all all of these conversations kind of fall apart where
you're like, essentially either stance is true in terms of

(27:15):
heaven is outside of time. M hm, so we're just
we get there all together anyway. I'll talk about that, right, So,
I would like to point out the line to save
those who are eagerly waiting for him. To me, it
doesn't make sense if we believe that those who have died,
which is I think what's being referred to this first,
are already in heaven with him, Like they're not waiting
for him if they're already with him, right, you could

(27:36):
argue that this verse is just talking about those who
are alive waiting for the rapture. That also, to me,
that doesn't make sense in the contact, since it would
dilute the need for us to eagerly wait for him
to return and save us if we could just die
and go straight to him. Maybe that's that's a little
bit of me just using my own logic there. It's
to take it or leave it sort of thing. But

(27:56):
save those who are eagerly waiting for him? Well, okay,
I would challenge you on this because I don't think
it works with still sleep either, if like, if the
soul is asleep, then how is it waiting? It's not Oh, okay,
all right, all right, that's a good question, because that's
that's gonna kind of get answered as we go along. Okay, cool.

(28:17):
So the Schofield Bible says about Hebrews nine twenty seven
that since death is a physical consequence of sin, that
it no longer applies to the believer, so that their
body is asleep because it may be awakened at any moment.
So they're even trying to say death physical death doesn't
apply to believers in the same way it in that
we're saying because this that that it's such a like

(28:42):
death is such a non issue that you might as
well call it sleeping because it's so like not permanent.
I think they're literally calling it sleeping. Like I think
they're literally saying that we're no longer under physical consequences
of sin, and so death doesn't apply to our bodies
in the same way of like they just kind of pause,
but but we still rot right right to me, And

(29:04):
I'm like, that falls apart my understanding of it, at
least falls apart. It also goes on to say and
This is in quotes. At the believer's death, he is
clothed upon with a house from heaven pending the resurrection
of the earthly house, and is at once with the Lord.
It's important to note again the rebuttal of the gnostics.
That's the point of two Corinthians five. That's why he's

(29:25):
making these distinctions, and and he's he's making it very
clear that when we die, our soul is not going
to be naked. It's going to be in case like.
That's that's the message of the counter right, the error
of when we die, our soul won't be right because yes, yeah,
to just like it's it's in order to understand a passage,
it is important to understand who he's talking to and why,

(29:47):
because that's how we you know, Because if I say,
sometimes I hate mac and cheese, and I'm addressing how
I feel about pasta, but I don't know, this is
a bad example. Don't don't don't listen to me when
I talk. It's fine. I started to think of a
good example of like, from one context, something sounds one way,
and then if you put in the right context, it
sounds different. But I chose something horrible, Okay, so it's fine.

(30:08):
The unsubscribe button, it's like right there. So the summary
of this passage as I read it is, if we
are away from the body, we are given a heavingly
dwelling and our souls not naked. Okay, However, I have
to skip some of my notes because I kind of
skipped ahead. There are two things that are apparently to

(30:28):
me here. If our fresh parents go directly to heaven
and they just hang out there, it really wouldn't matter
if our bodies were never resurrected, because we would just
be chilling in heaven with God, right like we start
to dissipate with our bodies or something like to me, like,
what does resurrection even mean? Yeah, if your spirit is
just going straight to heaven and getting a new body.

(30:51):
Like I look at things as a writer. So if
I were writing a story and I have this enormous
thing that we're all looking forward to at the end,
and then I pulled like, oh, but they can just
go heaven straight, it would be a bad writing choice
because it'd be like, well, then your your entire climax
isn't necessary. It doesn't have that same punch, Which doesn't
mean God has to operate according to my rules of writing. Sure.

(31:12):
My other objection is no one in the New Testament
explicitly states the views that we have to day of like, oh,
he died, but he's in the presence of the Lord.
They do seem to have this indication that the person
is dead but looking forward to the resurrection, right, and
we'll kind of go into it, but like you'll never
see like, oh, I'm so glad he's in heaven now,
I can't wait to see him in heaven now, like

(31:34):
you're welcome. If there's a verse that I'm missing that
says that you're well going to point that out to me.
And like with things being outside of time, I think
both of those things are true. Right, So if we're
like Charlie's Charlie's with Jesus, I don't think that that's wrong. Yeah,
say that, but no, I'm with you, I'm tracking with you.

(31:54):
I think like, for example, Erica said a happy first
week in heaven, Charlie, I'm not criticizing that. I do
think if we're looking at this outside of time, his
first week in heaven is also her first week in heaven. Yeah,
if we're gonna if we're gonna if we're gonna measure
it by weeks, but if if she wants to say
he's outside of time, right, this is my first week
of him being in heaven. Okay, this is like general

(32:17):
relativity and special relativity of like the passage of time
in relation to the speed of light changes depending on
your perspective or whatever. So it's you can kind of
quibble and it doesn't really matter. Think a lot of
these things people say because they're so comforting. Yeah, I
don't want to take that, Oh I'm anybody, because I
think ultimately, because even if you do sol sleep, going

(32:39):
downder in a stage is like you go to sleep
and then you wake up and it's done. The time
is past, so you're not like, oh gee, I'm waiting. Yeah,
So moving on real quick, because we will circle back
to that. Is that the Schoofille Bible kind of references
and it references specifically the passage, and I'm going to
pull up where it says she where is it say

(33:02):
that all believers at the believer's death, he's closed closed
upon with the house from heaven pending the resurrection of
the earthly house. So like he's almost seen me. To
make this distinction of there's a temporary clothing. So I
think he's in the Schofield view of my understanding of it,
he's trying to get around that, well, the holes can't
be naked, so they have a temporary heavenly house. That's

(33:22):
I could be misunderstanding, but I did seem to encounter
some other people saying that. Okay, so what he's referencing
is John fourteen, So let's pull that up oop of verse.
We can start one. Let not your hearts be troubled.
Believe in God, believe alto in me. In my father's
house are many rooms. If it were not so, would

(33:43):
I have told you that I go to prepare a
place for you. And if I go and prepare a
place for you, I will come again and take you
to myself. That where I am you may be also,
And you know the way to where I am going.
Thomas said to him, Lord, we do not know where
you are going. How can we know the way? Jesus
said to him, I am the Way and the truth
and the life. No one comes to Father except through me.
If you had known me, you would have known my father.
Also from now on, you do know him and have

(34:05):
seen him I just wanted to read the end to
that to like get the point. But that's the good.
So the idea of he's going to his father's house,
he's going to prepare rooms, and he's going to come
back for us. Are the rooms bodies? Remember when I
brought that up in another episode where I was like,
is this a like along with the references like the
tent and the tabernacle of the room's bodies? I think so,
but I don't think it's talking about a temporary body

(34:27):
right now, where are my notes? So it's important to
understand the metaphor of marriage and how it relates to
the culture at that time. Okay, So in New Testament times,
the the husband like they would be betrothed, which is like,
so they're technically married, but they haven't consummated the marriage yet,
they haven't had the legal The legal part is done, okay.

(34:50):
So then he goes off and he goes to prepare
a place for his bride, and usually that's like building
an addition onto his house. And then at some point
he returns and it's usually unexpect did and he takes
her away to marry her and they have the feast.
So that's the metaphor that Jesus has for us where
he is going to prepare a place for us, and
we're the bride of Christ and he's coming back for
us at some unspecified unknown time for the wedding and

(35:13):
for the wedding feast. So this prepared place for you
is tied to the concept of like the rapture, millennial rain,
resurrection of the dead, not to something happening in the interim.
I think what it seems like what Schofield thinks is
that when Jesus died on the cross in those three days,
he's preparing a place for us. Oh. I could be

(35:37):
wrong on that, because he says I'll prepare a place
for you and then I'll come back, and so I
think he's reading it as I'll come back from the dead.
I could be misunderstanding that. Okay, I mean I have
the Schofield Bible and I'm working through it. But I'm
like in Genesis, so couldn't help you without creep up.
But back to Hebrews nine twenty seven. So the line

(35:58):
it is appointed for man's to die and after that
the judgment. Let's talk like really quickly about how biblical
chronology works. Okay, because this is another cultural thing, and
I think often we take our cultural understanding of stuff
and we put it on to a different cultural understanding.
I know, I had like a shock when I realized
there are certain ways in Hebrew where they kind of

(36:19):
I'm trying to remember a specific thing where it in
our way that we use language like where we're more
precise and specific. It almost sounds like lying, but it's not.
It's like saying one thing. It's very loose, like oh,
seven days means x y z or something like that.
I'm sure trying to think of an example, but anyway,
so the h the idea of a gap in between

(36:45):
one thing on the program of events and then another
thing on the program of events. One example is in Daniel,
there are seventy weeks prophesied, right, and it's weeks of years,
so it's four hundred and ninety years total. By the
time we get to the birth of Jesus, the Jews
had seen the fulfillment of the first sixty nine weeks,
which is why people like sim and the priest and
of the prophet Is knew to be on the lookout

(37:05):
for the Messiah, right. They knew it was gonna happen. Well,
they knew it was gonna happen soon, and they were
hoping that they would live long enough to see it. Yes. Yeah,
it's also why there were so many false messiahs are
rising around the time of Jesus. Yes, because they knew, oh,
this is our time. This is when we can get
away with pretending that where people are gonna believe us.
And it's also why people just assumed, well, okay, Jesus
is the son of God, he's a messiah, so he's

(37:25):
going to institute everything that's described in the seventieth Week,
which is like establishing the prophetesside kingdom and ruling over
the earth and setting everything to write. But in between
the sixty ninth week and the seventieth there is an
enormous gap, and it happens right when Jesus dies, and
this is where we have the already not yet his
kingdom is upon us, but we are still waiting for it.
The seventieth week has not it hasn't started, hasn't ended. Yeah.

(37:50):
So another example of this kind of chronology thing is
Jesus said he's going to be back soon. Clearly his
timeline for soon is different than our timeline for soon.
Like when I say I will get eggs soon, you'd
expect like, probably no more than two weeks. Even that's
a stretch. You wouldn't be like, oh, she'll probably get
eggs within the next like two thousand years or so. Right, So,
and all that to say when the Bible says something

(38:12):
like it is a pointed for Manton wants to die,
and then the judgment it's not necessarily it could be
I could be wrong, but it's not necessarily giving a
timeline on how quickly the second thing happens, right, But
it's saying that nothing huge and major happens in the meantime.
We don't like live a second life after our first death.
So I'm just trying to read my notes. I'm getting excited,

(38:38):
and I'm going off of memory. I wrote all these yesterday.
I had a really long to day writing because I
was like, Oh, this will come together really quickly, and
then it didn't. Okay, so let's go back to something
else that the got Questions articles reference, which is Philippian's
when twenty three, and just like the preceding verses for
context on twenty three, aim for like twenty two, ish

(38:59):
ou tu wish okay, okay. So if I am to live, oh,
let's do twenty one. For to me, to live is
Christ and to die is Gain. If I am to
live in the flesh, that means fruitful labor for me.
Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am
hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart
and be with Christ, for that is far better. But
to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your account.

(39:22):
So this verse seems to indicate that dying means leaving
the flesh and being with God, or at least that's
how that's taken. However, if the view of soul sleep
is like going under anesthesia, no matter how long your
soul's asleep, for your consciousness, it's like one minute you're
alive and one minute you're with Christ. So it's in
practice both interpretations do give the same reading, right, But

(39:42):
then why would they be waiting? What do you mean?
So if this is the view, then in what way
are souls waiting to be resurrected? If it's the experience
is like that, they're not experience, but they are still waiting.
It's just they're not they're not Oh oh, you're referring
to a previous thing. So yeah, I'm probably I'm probably

(40:06):
oversimplifying it when I say, like the ineciesia thing. Okay,
we'll kind of get to that. Maybe we can circle
back to this at the end. Yeah, if you have,
don't let me forget answered it. Okay. So it's possible
that just that one Hebrews verse is not about dead
people at all. It's about the living, and so that's
why the waiting isn't too working. But also my next

(40:30):
part of this paragraph actually might kind of address it. Okay.
So like, let's look at a human example of the
concept in this verse. Okay. So I could be either
be at work and away from home, or I could
be at home and away from work. It is better
for me to be at work and make money, but
I earnestly desire to leave work and be at home. Okay.
So when I step outside the door of my workplace,
am I immediately at home? No? I usually have traffic

(40:52):
to wad in. Sure, so I desire to leave point
A and be at the outcome of point B. My
desire to teleports me in my thinking past the distance between
A and B, Like I want to be home right now,
I want to be away from working at home, right,
But that doesn't mean the distance between A and B
css to exist in the physical realm. Sure, so that's
just a thought exercise. That doesn't mean that that's how
it works. But the idea of I want to be

(41:13):
instead of here on the earth, I want to be
at the destination about heaven. Right, But that doesn't mean
I don't recognize that there is a distance, but I'm
moving all of a sudden in that direction. Sure, yeah,
that's fine, that's fine. Where is I mouse went away? Oh?
I know it's back. So a similar objection that's not
brought up in that article is Ecclesiastes twelve to seven.

(41:34):
I didn't give the link for this is just the
line and the duster turns to the earth as it was,
and the spirit returns to God who gave it. So
that could be read as, oh, well, the body goes
to the earth and the spirit goes to Heaven. Okay,
but whether it happens immediately earth, the final resurrection, the
spirit returns to God who gave it. Right, So this
isn't giving a timeline, right, So let's look at and

(41:55):
also feel free to take notes of anything. At the end,
you're like, you didn't cover this, Yeah, Luke, sixteen nineteen
to thirty one is the big one. Okay, it's goods
okay nineteen yes, okay, all right. So there was a
rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen,
and who feasted sumptuously every day. And at his gate

(42:16):
was laid a poor man named Lazarus, covered with sores,
who desired to be fed with what fell from the
rich man's table. Moreover, even the dogs came and looked
his sores. The poor man died and was carried by
the angels to Abraham's side. The rich man also died
and was buried, and in hades, being in a torment,
he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off
and Lazarus at his side, and he called out, Father Abraham,

(42:36):
have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the
end of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
for I am an anguish in this slime. He's still
such a dick, he's like that poor guy. Have him
serve me right. Come on, But Abraham said, child, remember
that you in your lifetime received your good things and
Lazarus in like manner bad things. But now he is
comforted here, and you are in anguish. And besides all

(42:58):
this between us and you, a great has been fixed
in order that those who had passed from here to
you may not be able, and none may cross from
there to us. And he said, then I beg you father,
to send him to my father's house, for I have
five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they
also come into this place of torment. Peasant, please scroll like.
But Abraham said, they have Moses and the prophets. Let

(43:19):
them hear them. And he said, no, father Abraham, but
if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.
And he said to him, if they do not hear
Moses in the prophets, neither will they be convinced if
someone should rise from the dead. Can I just note here,
yes that he still doesn't. He still gives them someone
rising from the dead, even though he knows, yeah, they're
not gonna okay, because he's not saying I won't do it.

(43:42):
He's just think it's not gonna work. Right. So this
passage is used as an example of people going to
both the Prehaven and the pre haw after they die,
and then they're being them, being their wall if their
life goes down down below, and then being conscious and look,
they're having an interaction. I'm not one hundred percent sure
that this is parable. I have heard some one point
out people are named in it, people aren't named in

(44:04):
other parables. Yeah, and it doesn't have like a meaning.
He doesn't say, oh, here's the interpretation of the parable. Well,
he doesn't give an interpretation for every parable though. Oh okay,
so my take on this is one possible take. This
was given in a sermon by Jesus that had a
bunch of parables preceding it. Okay, so it kind of
does flow in with all the other parables, and about

(44:25):
thirty five percent of jesus instructions were through parables. This
one does read like a parable in a lot of ways.
So I don't conclusively know when we or another, but
it's just worth not ignoring that this could be a parable.
And the point of a parable is to teach a
lesson at the end. So like the parable of the pearl,
but of great price, it's not about a pearl. Yeah,
So in this parable, the lesson is that like that

(44:46):
after death you cannot save yourself, and you cannot save
those still on earth, and you cannot you know, you
cannot go and save someone from well too. And if
those on earth will not believe the prophets that God
sent them, they will not believe someone who's returned from
the day. So is Jesus giving a hypothetical scenario to
make a point, kind of like how our jokes are,

(45:07):
like Saint Peter is waiting at the gates of Heaven.
We don't necessarily think there's going to be Saint Peter
waiting at the gates, but it's about a framework to
explain the thought. Or is he actually giving us insight
into how she all works? If it's the latter, would
it be a contradiction to the idea of to be
absent from the body to be present with the Lord too. So, okay,
I would want to interject here and say, even if

(45:29):
this is a descriptive of what this was, this is
pre Jesus dying. And so my belief has always been
that this is this is how it was before Jesus died.
Went down, let out the captives. These are the captors,
talk about your Okay, spoilers, no spoilers, I anticipated every
thought you'd have. Plus also the one where you're like
randomly wanting to eat potato chips right now. Kind of

(45:51):
a weird one, but I have it in my notes. Okay, So,
but first we're going to address the if this is,
which was the latter, If this is a parable Okay,
a constructed can scenario? No, am I dumb? I am
probably not. That we already talked about whether it was
a parable. Yeah, I think this is if this is

(46:12):
like a legitimate description of where they're at. Okay, would
this be a contradiction of to be absent from the
body's pit present from the Lord because it seems like
they're not in their bodies, but they're also not with
the Lord. Yeah, potentially. So let's approach this kind of
a couple ways. Let's first look at another objection where
Jesus English, where Jesus addresses the repentant thief on the cross,

(46:35):
and look at twenty three forty three where he says
to him, you don't have to pull it up it
on alink. Truly, I say to you today you will
be with me in paradise. Now that's like, oh, okay,
that's that's clear. Today, Today you'll be with me in paradise.
It's because it's it's read we immediately preload. Oh well,
paradise means heaven. So the thief, upon dying immediately is
going to go to heaven. He's going to be with
Jesus that day, immediately in heaven. But in order to

(46:58):
answer that question, let's look at where Jesus went dying
on the cross. So let's look at Acts two, starting
in verse twenty five twenty five. Okay, because paradise in
heaven are different words. In fact, that word, the word
paradise is the same word that's used to translate Eden

(47:19):
in the alex Ex and it's used three times in
the New Testament. Today you'll be with me in paradise.
There's one verse in Revelation, and then there's I forget
the other worse. I think it's it doesn't matter. So
for David says concerning him and this hymn here is Jesus.
I saw the Lord always before me, for he is
at my right hand, that I may not be shaken.
Therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced, and

(47:42):
my flesh also wild. Well in hope, for you will
not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy
One c corruption. You have made known to me the
paths of life. You will make me full of gladness
with your presence. Brothers, I may say to you with
confidence about the Patriarch David, that he is both dead,
or that he both died and was buried, and his
tomb is with us to this day. Being there for
a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an

(48:03):
oath to him that he would set one of his
descendants on his throne, he foresaw and spoke about the
resurrection of the Christ. That he was not abandoned to Hades,
nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God raised
up of that we all are witnesses. Being therefore exalted
at the right hand of God, and having received from
the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has
poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. For

(48:23):
David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself
says the Lord, said to my Lord, sit at my
right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. Let
all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that
God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus
whom you crucified. And I think that's the end of
that passage, so that one doesn't cover super duper everything,
except it's explaining that at least Jesus wasn't stuck forever

(48:45):
in Hades. He rose again. Right, there's some idea of
like not abandoned, like not abandoning assault to Hades, not
letting them go there at all, but not abandoning them there. Okay.
And so to continue, we're going to get to the
part that you're excited first. Peter three, eighteen to twenty.
Do you want to read this part since you're sure?
For Christ also suffered once for sins? Oh, it's not showing,

(49:08):
is it not? What the hackers the hackers this language
and this chat. Okay? For Christ also suffered once for sins,
the righteousness, the righteous, for the unrighteous, that he might
bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh,
but made alive in the spirit in which he went
and proclaimed to the spirits in prison, because they formally

(49:28):
did not obey. When God's patience waited in the days
of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which
a few, that is, eight persons were brought safely through
water baptism, which corresponds to this now saves you not
as a removal of dirt from the body, but as
an appeal to God for a good conscience through the
resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and
is at the right hand of God with angels, authorities,

(49:50):
and powers having been subjected to him. I got a
little lost in there, you did. I meant to give
you like you're finally kept reading, but I meant to
be like, oh, to verse twenty, where did you get lost?
Because they formally did not obey the spirits in prison,
because they formally did not obey when God's patience waited
in the days and no, like the author kind of

(50:10):
goes from one thought into another thought, and the bridge
he uses to get there is very confusing to me,
this this like thing about yeah. Now, so he's basically saying,
so he went after dying to Hades. Yeah, that is
the assumption to the spirits in prison, So the people
in Hades, but not necessarily the saved ones. That's kind

(50:34):
of what it because they formerly did not obey. And
it seems like he's specifically maybe talking about those who
didn't go on the arc, who like led to the flood.
I'm not sure, Like that's that's that's really confusing to me,
Michael Heiser level, because yes, what what we perhaps think

(51:01):
is that any soul before Jesus who has kept the
law has still kept it imperfectly, Like anyone before Jesus,
even if they lived faithfully, blamelessly all of the above,
they still they still couldn't save themselves. So perhaps with Noah,
it's like that God chose to save Noah and his

(51:21):
family because they feared him, but they weren't saved by
their own strength. Yeah, they were saved because of the
arc formerly did not obey. So the idea is perhaps
here that like, none of these people are perfect, so
there is some point in their lives where they didn't

(51:44):
obey and that's why they're in prison waiting for Jesus. Yeah.
I think it's also making the parallel of like Noah
on the arc is a figure of baptism, of like
being buried in the water because he had like the
water coming from above and below and passing through it
through faith in Jesus Christ. Right, Which that's kind of

(52:11):
off topic, but I mean it's still were talking about.
But this idea of preaching to the spirits in prison
is very interesting. We are going to reference that again.
But that's something that I don't think anyone can reasonably
say I know exactly what they're talking about there, unless
they're Michael Heeiser. Oh yeah, that's the other thing here
is he's proclaiming something to the spirits in prison. He's
not just going in and just taking them out, but

(52:31):
preaching to them. So to me, I'm like, is it?
I mean, this is this is something that's going to
make people mad. And I'm not. I'm only asking because
I'm like, it seems like I'm saying this. Was there
a point where all the spirits up until Jesus, before
Jesus was revealed to people, before anyone really fully understood
what the gospel was lading torture. Did they get a

(52:53):
second chance inside Hades to receive the gospel right that
when the gospel exis for them? Or m was Jesus
being like nin or niner, oh, like going down and
saying you didn't believe that a messiah was coming and

(53:15):
you got so evil before the flood, But I I did,
I did come right, And I to me, that doesn't
really seem like Jesus to do that. I was going
to bring up Jude later. I'll leave that my notes
for later, but I did want to bring up there
is one verse that might also kind of explain who
he's preaching to. Okay, verse six and the angels who

(53:36):
did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their
proper dwelling. These he has kept in darkness, bound with
everlasting change for judgment on the Great Day. Was he
preaching to them? Huh, like you you stepped out of
my plan. This was the plan. I want you to
see it. Because they did not formally obey. It seems
like it was in the days of Noah when there
was an flum and they're kept in prison because they're

(53:59):
kept bound in everlasting So potentially when he says the spirits,
because maybe if it were humans, he would have just
said the people. I do not shu. That's an opposing viewpoint.
But regardless of who he spoke to, seems like when
Jesus died, he went to Hades. Yeah, and there's more
verses to kind of back this up. So, and Hades

(54:24):
being understood is like that divided place where there's a
good spot paradise Abraham's bosom, yeah yeah, and uh and
a bad spot, which is often I think even I
think it's referenced twice in the Bible as tartarous. It's basically,
if you look at what the conception of like the
Greek afterlife is, it's pretty close. It's like everyone had
before Jesus the same kind of conception of the afterlife,

(54:48):
of like there's a kind of a decent place where
you're like pretty yeah, pretty content, and then there's like
you're in the same compartment complex where there's just like
some howling of the damn going on back there. But
the main the distinction being like that's not permanent and
God is coming to set things right. Right, So, since
hell is not established and tel revelation more on that later,

(55:10):
and since Jesus told the thief on the cross that
he would be with him in paradise, right, what does
it mean if Jesus was hanging out with the unbelieving spirits. Well,
it seems that what's talked about in Luke sixteen, which
is one side of the bosom, is well, Abraham's bosom
is the one side, right. Yeah, Well, there's actually two

(55:32):
sets of the bosom, because there's one for a Lazarus
and one for Abraham. So it seems like when Jesus says,
you will be with me in Paradise, it is you
will be with me. You'll be on the good side.
I'll be in the bathad But we're both together in
this place going on, and it's not talking about Heaven
right when he says that. Now, why do you think
Jesus went to the bad side. I don't know for sure,

(55:54):
because it seems like they can talk across the chasm, right, Yeah,
So it's very possible he went to the good side
and preached to I don't have like a hill to
die either way of which sid he went on. Just
the fact that he's in Hades, not Heaven. However, I
do think my my understanding is he did go to

(56:16):
Hades the bad side as he was taking punishment for
our since okay, that separation from God. Yeah, I mean,
I can I can see, I can picture because I
think what he says to the thief with me in
paradise like that, the plain reading of that would be
they are both in Paradise together. But that doesn't mean
he just immediately went to Paradise if he went through

(56:39):
Hades first, did what he needed to do in Hades,
and then came over to the Paradise side and Diddi's yeah,
sorry and let out the captives. Did Hades for a
second become Paradise because Jesus was there? Because it was
from God anymore? Well, because we he says he has
the keys, Now he has the keys of death and haities.
Are you going to get to that? I actually didn't
have my notes, so go for it, okay. So presumably

(57:02):
whoever was holding prior to Jesus getting them, whoever was
holding in the keys to death and Hades, was in
the bad side of Hades. So when Jesus went down,
I would assume it's a lot of conjecture he had
to make war on Hades himself to take the keys,
which is also I didn't include this in my notes
because there were a lot of things. But I did

(57:23):
like a word search for Shiel in the Old Testament,
and I think there's three different places I found maybe
more that Sheiel and Abaden. I had always thought Abaden
was just in the New Testament in the Revelation, where
like the A bad and Slash of Pollion is given
the keys to open the pit. But it seems like
this has been a long standing position. So maybe he
at the Battle of Abadon. Yeah, well it's like and

(57:46):
how much of a battle that was is a question,
but it does. It does seem that Jesus didn't have
the keys before and then and then he did, so
what however, that wouldn't happen. We did the Revelation study
where basically our our teacher was like, so and Michael
fights the devil. There's a fight, which is the center
is a scene the fights over, there's not a contest.

(58:06):
He just goes like he just picture Jesus descends into Hades,
puts his foot on the guy's head, like it just
descends in foot on head, takes keys, walks over into
parent paradise, who leads everybody out? And and if while
he's there with his foot on death's head, preaches to

(58:29):
the spirits of both what a mistake they made in
the days of then great to me though, and this
is me just preloading an assumption. So catch me in
the act. What is the point of preaching if there's
not an end goal that you can reach. If the
end goal is should just be like you. You messed up,
and I want you to know that I guess, but
like to me, when I understand preaching, it's so that

(58:50):
someone could be moved to respond to the preaching. Is
there a redemption for the fallen ages, at least the
ones that fell. I need to look into that for
the demon because I was always taught, no, they can't repent,
and maybe there is something that says that I just
can't think of any verse one ware another. I think
it might potentially might depend on what the fall was

(59:13):
like if the group, If we're taking the Anachian view
to some extent, the what's alluded to in Jude that
sometime in the days of Noah there was a group
of angels who stepped out of bounds. And you could
argue that that wasn't outright rebellion, but they stepped out
of bounds and then were put in prison. That those

(59:34):
ones might get a second chance, as opposed to the
group the third of the angels that Satan leads out
to wage war against God. Maybe that you can't come
back from. I do think though, so Jesus took on
flesh of humankind and died for humanity is there a
sacrifice for the sins of angels. Does jesus sacrifice also

(59:55):
apply to angels or is it kind of like either
the straight out of Lae. God does something else for
them that we're just not privy too, because it's not
our story, right, it's not our story. It seems like
in the Old Testament, every time he shows up he's
in the same type of body as the angels are
in and I don't know what that means. Yeah, well,
I mean he hadn't been born in the flesh yet,

(01:00:16):
so he wouldn't sure take on an actual flesh. But
that is a good question. But moving back to the topic,
just so we don't get too often back. Yeah. Yeah.
So further proof that Jesus didn't go up to heaven,
so therefore the Lazarus didn't go up to heaven is
John twenty seventeen, which says Jesus is talking to Mary

(01:00:36):
in the garden after his resurrection. He says, do not
cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to
the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them,
I am ascending to my father and your father, to
my God and your God. So he's saying I have
not yet ascended to the Father. He's not gone heaven yet.
He's not gone up yet. He's only gone down. Yeah,
he's gone down and descended from the down up too. Right,
So from that alone, you know that when he says

(01:00:57):
today you will be with me in Paradise, is not
with the Father because he hasn't gone to the Father yet. Yes,
unless you're gonna just take the whole like outside of
time thing. But that doesn't that's that's a cop out,
I think maybe. So. So going back to the whole

(01:01:18):
question of you know, does she all kind of deny
the being absent from the body being present with the
Lord thing? I think we have two options on how
we can interpret the scenario, and the first is both
sides of Shiel are in the presence of the Lord.
Psalm one thirty nine eight says if I send to heaven,
you're there. If I make my bed and Shiel, you're

(01:01:39):
there now. I don't know if this is a prescriptive, sorry,
look at the camera. I don't know if this is
a prescriptive, like so God is in heaven and God
is in Earth, or if he's trying to make the point,
if he's if he's using these extremes to be like,
you always see me. There's nothing I can do to
hide from you. But it is interesting that seems to

(01:02:04):
place God is this is hell. We talk about hell
as like the absence of God. It is away from
God's presence. However, this isn't hell yet. Interesting they're not
judged yet, they haven't they're not cast out of his
presence yet. Yeah, that is that is a final judgment thing.
So is it a complete misunderstanding to think, well, if

(01:02:27):
I shoot out of my body right now, I have
to go to heaven to be present with the Lord. Technically,
if my body is still kind of I if my
spirit is still wandering around, you're present Lord. Although I
think what it's trying to say is like to be
absent from the Lord is to be present in the
body of the idea of we're not directly physically in

(01:02:48):
the presence of God where so, but but a little quibbling, Yeah,
little coupling, a little coupling. As The second option is
that those who are experiencing katies are experienced a state
of consciousness while they're still in their moldering bodies. So
they're sleeping peacefully, some of them, and others are having
like never ending night terrors and they're having this like

(01:03:08):
collective telepathic dream. It's still wrong questions right, Well, like
there is obviously there's been a lot of speculation. But
the idea is you can speculate right up and tell
you find a verse that contradicts you, yes, and you

(01:03:29):
need to not be trying too hard to like, not
be so attached to your viewpoint that a verse it
contradicts you, you're like, no, no, no, it's not it's
not what it is still meant. But and you should
be actively looking for verses to I don't think you
have to be like, this is what I think I need.

(01:03:50):
I'm going to go look for verses to contradict me.
But but you should be actively like, God, this is
what I'm wondering. Will you show me, Well, you show
me if I'm wrong. And also don't immediately record oil
from a verse that shows you that you're wrong or
you know. I'm going to talk about this in a
bit later, But the idea of I don't think there's
anything that we can fully kind of. I don't think

(01:04:11):
any of these stances can be one hundred percent proved.
I think there's a little bit that you get like
really far and then there's something that kind of negates it. Right,
But all of the options, well, I think it's a
bit out of our understanding. Yes, like we're trying to
describe something we just don't have the hardware for, and
we're going to get more into that. But there is
a secret thord option that I didn't list, is that

(01:04:31):
both are true in terms of the being in the
presence of the Lord in shield like just loose bodies
or in a state of soul sleep. Is that they
could both be true, that they're in the presence of
the Lord and they're asleep. Sure, sure you can be
a safe and in God's presence. Guys like to me,
this is why I find it so hard to have

(01:04:52):
a hill to die on, because if I can poke
at like, there's another way you could see this, right,
it doesn't mean my other way to see it is true.
But it's like you're telling me that this is the
only way to read this person. I can see all
these different viewpoints, So I need you to give me
much more strong framework if you're gonna say this is
explicitly this is this right. I think my mid show
conclusion is this is fun to think about what we

(01:05:12):
do not know and we're not gonna know, and that's okay,
And to be super dogmatic about anyone position is probably wrong.
I'm gonna be super duper honest with you. I spent
a long time yesterday, A long time yesterday. I mean
I actually started all this research pre show stuff just
to answer the question for myself, but in terms of
writing the show and doing research, but like eight hours

(01:05:32):
on finding evidence to see if I could give myself
wiggle room to make theories about ghosts that I don't
even know if I believe in. So okay, I am
not upset if no one believes this. I'm just like,
is this the possibility? Can we You're trying to see
if there is space for the other thing that you
want to talk about. I'm just poking around because the

(01:05:54):
more you poke around, the more you understand the Word
of God better. And as long as I'm willing to
see what the Bible has to say, and I'm not
trying to disprove something selvific, because I'm not trying to
disprove anything. I'm trying to see what the Bible says,
not like I'm trying to see if the Bible says
what humans have been saying. Yeah, okay, yes, pause. I

(01:06:16):
shouldn't have said pause before. I was right over the
pause button. Pause on pause. Okay, So we are going
to move on to First Corinthians fifteen twenty to twenty four.
I do have that for you, and we're also going
to keep that up after I read that bit, because
there's a bit later on. Okay, sir. First Corinthians fifteen

(01:06:37):
twenty twenty four. Okay, uh, this is twelve. Y's cool,
done a bit, I mean fifteen's right there. So the
chapter is fifteen and the verses twenty to twenty four.
First Corinthians fifteen twenty to twenty four, twenty to twenty
four is sorry, Okay, that took me wait. But in

(01:07:02):
fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first
fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by
a man came, death by a man has come also
the resurrection of the dead. For as Adam sorry, for
as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall
all be made alive. But each in his own order.
The Christ is the first fruits. Then at his coming
those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end when

(01:07:23):
he delivers the kingdom to God the Father, after destroying
every rule and every authority and power. So it does
seem to be saying here that no one when we
know this part, no one rose from the dead before Christ,
like no one was resurrected, No one went to heaven
before Christ. So Christ comes first, and then those belong
to Christ, and then the end like, yeah, who belonged

(01:07:44):
to Christ at his coming? For he must reign, Sorry,
we should do verse twenty five and twenty six, for
he must reign until he has put all his enemies
under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. Catch,
which makes me think that there's still death in the
millennial reign. Yeah, that's kind of what I might take
us ben, and we're gonna there's another verse that talks
about that at the later on or passage. But if

(01:08:08):
you scroll down to versus thirty five. Um, but someone
will ask, how are the dead raised with? What kind
of body do they come? You foolish person? How dare
you ask? A foolish person? What you sew does not
come to life unless it dies. And what you sew
is not the body that is to be but a
bear kernel perhaps a wheder of some other grain. But

(01:08:30):
God gives it a body as he has chosen, and
to each kind of seed its own body. For not
all flesh is the same. But there is one kind
for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another
for fish. So this almost kind of makes me wonder
there's some resurrection of some type for the animals, possibly
because otherwise it wouldn't need to make the distation of
what is sewed produces different things. I don't know well

(01:08:51):
that answers your do dogs good to have anthing? I
potentially well, I was kind of hoping all dogs one time.
I'm just just kidding. Don't come for me all the
cat hatred I have to do reciprocal. If you could
still a little b I'm gonna start at verse forty.
I just want to have some lar away. There are
heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the
heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the

(01:09:12):
earthly is of another. So there are still like it's
implying there's going to be glorified earthly. It's just a
different kind of glory. It's my impression. Oh interesting, But
so we're not going to have. Basically the idea that
like you're going to become an angel is completely wrong.
We have a very we have a different, completely different
type of body. Well, yeah, I think we're gonna have

(01:09:33):
what we headed the garden, what we were supposed to
have right before it fell, and what Jesus had when
he came back, where he could go through walls, but
he also ate food. Yeah, like human as, we're not
going to become a different species. We're not going to
become angels like the whole so and so has died
and gone to heaven and become an angel. That's gnosticism,
because the belief of my hands are so dry. You you

(01:09:56):
die and your soul is released as an angel. So
we're gonna stay human. Nothing about this. The plan didn't
change because of the fall. We're still gonna be in
a new haven, new Earth to do what we were
put on the earth to do originally, is to steward
the Earth for him. We're not gonna the mission statement
didn't change. Is not understanding anyway, continue on. There is

(01:10:20):
one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon,
another glory of the stars. For stars differ from star
in glory. So it is with the resurrection of the dead.
What is sown is perishable. What is raised is imperishable.
It is sown in dishonor it is raised in glory.
It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
It is sown a natural body, it is raised a
spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is

(01:10:41):
also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, the first
man atom became a living being. The last atom became
a life giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual
that is first, but the natural, and then the spiritual.
The first man was from the earth, a man of dust.
The second man is from heaven. As was the man
of dust, So also are those who are of the dust,
And as is the Man of heaven, so also are

(01:11:01):
those who are of heaven. So when when we become saved,
we are adopted into God's family. M. And I think
what it's trying to indicate is like a we are
now sons of God. We are a different type than
the man of dust. M. I could be just as
we have borne the image of the man of dust,
we shall also bear the image of the Man of heaven. Yes,

(01:11:23):
and then continue on. I tell you this, brothers, flesh
and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, nor does
the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery.
We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be
changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye
at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and
the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.
For this perishable body must be must put on the imperishable,
and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the

(01:11:45):
perishable puts on the imperishable and the mortal puts on immortality,
then shall come to pass this saying that is written,
death is swallowed up in victory. Oh death. Where is
your victory? Oh death? Where is your sting? Where'd you go?
Hang on? I wanted to stop for a second because
it's this again idea of like, our perishable body isn't
just completely going away. We're putting on the imperishable. The

(01:12:06):
mortal body is putting on the metality as opposed to
completely so non existing. And I did have my notes.
Does this this is a potential counterpoint to my claim
that the bodies that are raised are transformed instead of replaced.
But let's finish this passage and then I'll circle back.
I think it's more than transformed. They're like subsumed, subsumed,
swallowed up. I mean, yeah, okay, so uh yeah, oh

(01:12:29):
death worth your sting. The sting of death is sin,
and the power of sin is the law. But thanks
be to God who gives us the victory through our Lord,
Jesus Christ. Therefore, my veloved brothers, be steadfast and movable,
always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that
in the Lord your labor is not in vain. So
I had a couple of things I wanted to do
it there let me and I will come back and
talk about some of this in a bit. But in
order to dress a question, is this actually saying where

(01:12:52):
am I? Because I just want to look at my
own page so I can scroll, And I didn't look
because I had a point. I should have written the
point down. I said, this is a good point. I
want to keep it a no better. So I was
honing in on so everything where am I going? That's
going on? This is like even I am gonna not

(01:13:15):
one hundred percent. It is confused, Like the whole subject
is confusing. And I think it's it's a mystery. I
think it's a little bit beyond us. I think that
once we're like in our heavenly bodies, in our heavenly situation,
we'ren't be like oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. It's just like
an ant trying to understand human things. Well. And I
wonder if when Satan reads this passage he interprets it as, oh,

(01:13:39):
they need the physical body in order to be glorified,
So I'm gonna have people, you know, burn and mutilate
Christians for sure, and behead them so that their their
body's ruined. Sure, So I think that that's the wrong reading. Yeah, oh,
interesting to say that this is a satanic reading because
when I see this planted, because this is what this
is talking about, is like that that metaphor, right, None

(01:13:59):
of the original seed remains, but the material that made
up the seed remains, like the information, right, the image
of the plant that is implanted on the seed becomes
the DNA DNA. There's a word for that. Whoa, whoa,
whoa whoa what if? What if? That's what it is? Like?
Our DNA is gonna is going to have it like that?

(01:14:21):
That what was written our specific code, our specific code
that I'm not going to have this body anymore, but
I will look like this, like a better version of this. Yeah,
but it will like this. I think that that is
the good because it it would be a little odd
to look like a different person. I'm not saying like

(01:14:42):
this is not a proof that we wouldn't but like
if God made us this specific way on Earth, now,
I would say that people would like birth defects. You
wouldn't have, right, I think you would have as you
should have won every everything wrong, including the wrongness in
the DNA itself. If you had a genetic abnormality would
be corrected, but you'd still become Yeah, the base code

(01:15:09):
in the same in the same way that like, regardless
of what the first Tabernacle and how different the First
Tabernacle looked to Solomon's Tabernacle, the essential purpose of both
was exactly the same, and this it had the same
like you knew they were related. Yeah, to them, they're
still the tabernacle. You're doing the same sacrifices you're doing this.

(01:15:32):
It's the same layout, it's the same imagery. One just
happens to be significantly nicer. Almost. You could almost try
to say that our earthly body is the already not
yet of our heavenly body. Hmmm, well, I think that
there's like that longing in us of like I want
my body to work better, like that, there's like that

(01:15:52):
it should be it should be this, other, it should
be this, it should be better. One thing I think
that is interesting of note here, And I'm just looking
back to make sure I'm not missing something, and so
that this this talks heavily about the body being buried
and then raised. It doesn't refer to the soul at

(01:16:13):
all in this context, whether the soul stays in the
body or the soul goes up from the body. Oh,
it just doesn't reference it at all. It doesn't. And
this is where I do. This is me just putting
on my wondering cap if if it's because there's not
a distinction in terms of like the understanding of these
two things are the packaging the other. You don't have
one with got the other. So when I say the

(01:16:33):
bodies and the soul, you just it's right. The bodies
in the grave, you automatic they just know the soul's there,
because it doesn't say they'll be raised and then reunited
with their souls, right, And that doesn't make sense to
me at all. Yeah, that reuniting piece. Yeah, to me,
it seems like such an important thing that it should
be said of, like your body's dead and it'll be
glorified and then you'll be put back into it. And

(01:16:55):
nowhere does it specifically say those that idea. Yeah, just that.
And not only does it not say that idea, you
don't see an image of that idea anywhere, Like there's
no metaphorical correlation that I can think of anywhere in
the Bible. And also for this parisable body must put
on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.

(01:17:16):
When the parish bole puts on the imperishable and the
mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the
saying that is written, death is fallowed up in victory?
Oh death, where is your victory? O? Death, whears your sting?
Right now? Death still has victory and sting. And I'll
talk about this a little bit more later, But the
idea of I think I don't think that there's anything
wrong with the idea of rejoicing in the defeat of

(01:17:39):
death already, because while it hasn't been officially defeated. According
to this, we know that it's going to be defeated,
and we have hope in Christ. We know that we
are gonna not perish, but haveever last life. Jesus defeated
it for himself and he let out the captives, so
that was a significant work that was done. And then

(01:17:59):
he has the right, like he has the right, he
has the keys, he has everything he needs to do
the thing. We're just waiting, yes, which comes back to
the waiting, And I think I think why it's so important,
like the the talking about the resurrection, how Jesus died
and was resurrected so that we will be resurrected. I
think that's the key off if you how do I

(01:18:22):
put this? I think I think that we still die,
even potentially our souls m for temporarily, but that the
promise is our mortal soul that are maybe and this
is me just asking a question, but in the statement form,
that our our soul is mortal because like the soul
and body are are are intertwined, intertwined, they're like the

(01:18:43):
same entity, same unit. But that our hope and our
knowledge that we are no longer going to perish is
because for us now, it's just a pause. It is
just sleep for us now instead of death, because we
will wake up, that we will have eternal life, but
that something has to be swapped out. I had a

(01:19:04):
point connected to that, and I've probably sort of made it,
but I just didn't. Well, we see it isn't until
the New Testament, but it is in the New Testament.
After Jesus dies, then the church starts using the metaphor
of sleep, yes for death. For instance. I think I
took it out of my notes, but there's there's that
point where a little girl dies and Jesus is like,
stop crying, She's just sleeping, and they're like laughing at him.

(01:19:25):
And they wouldn't have laughed if they knew that sleep
was a metaphor, right right, It wasn't at all a
metaphor until after Jesus died. So this idea of because
people were still people were still scared by us death
still had that like and not in the conception of
well I'm just sad because I don't get to see
them for a while that we don't get to We
don't see that in the New Testament of like, well,

(01:19:46):
you know, I'm really sad, but I know they'll be
I know they'll see them again. It's like there is
this awfulness of they are dead right now, right, and
the only hope we have is that Jesus is going
to keep his promise and resurrect us. Yes, yeah, now
that is that is the way that the hope is
is put forward in mm HM in the New Testament.

(01:20:08):
And I do wonder if some of some of the
shift is correct in that it was wrong, but that
as we have generation upon generation learn Christianity, learn the Bible,
learned what the moral development of humanity has been, such
that we really have this faith that that death mean

(01:20:32):
is pretty meaningless. Well, yeah, because this this is the
generation of like we hold on, we've just we've just
learned that we have hope, right. I mean there were
people with hope before, and they but they have like
years generations of memory of fear, of genetic memory of
fear of death, and they didn't I think before, like
they the Pharisees believed in the resurrection at the end. Yeah,

(01:20:54):
the Saducees didn't. Yeah, But I think that there's a
difference in you know, we're all going to be resurrected
at the end too, this is how you know for
sure that you're going to be at that resurrection. You're
gonna make it. I actually want to skip ahead a bit.
My nose all will back, but to first of as,
first Thessalonians four thirteen to seventeen, because this talks about
that this oh, my understanding of this context. Yeah, it's

(01:21:17):
just that that's that's just what I want. My understanding
of this context is that someone had been telling with
Thessalonians or they somehow become concerned that they had missed
the resurrection, and so that having missed it, are the
people who are dead Are they just going to stay dead?
Like when we die, were going to stay dead because
there's only one resurrection. So that idea of we see
as like, you know, everyone once they die goes to heaven,
but like they saw it as a this is your

(01:21:37):
bus ticket. You miss it, you don't have it. That
was their understanding at the time. So okay, but we
do not want you to be uninformed, brothers about those
who are asleep. That you may not grieve as others
do who have no hope for since we believe that
Jesus died and rose again, even so through Jesus God
will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For
this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,

(01:21:58):
that we who are alive, who are left until the
of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a
cry of command, with the voice of an archangel and
with the sound of the trumpet of God, and the
dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive,
who are left, will be caught up together with them
in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will always do with the Lord. This

(01:22:18):
would have been a perfect opportunity for Paul to say, Oh,
don't worry if you've missed the resurrection, or like, don't
even worry about that because like when you die, you
just go straight to heaven. Instead. His comfort is it
hasn't happened yet, It's gonna happen, and the dead are
going to get to heaven, right. This is also the

(01:22:38):
you know, a proof text for the rapture. But this
is also I don't know if this is in reference
to what's going on in two Timothy or if there
was another thing happening. You don't need to pull that up.
I'm just gonna read the verses I said, link it,
but it's fine if you know it. So where was
the first Did I not write the correct verse? Oh?

(01:22:58):
I did. I'm just bad at reading my fine so first, sorry,
tewond Timothy two sixteen to eighteen says, but avoid irreverent babel,
for it will lead people into more and more ungodliness,
and their talk will spread like gang green among them.
I love it when he calls people up by name.
Among them are Hymenaeus, who have swerved from the truth,
saying that the resurrection has already happened. They are upsetting

(01:23:20):
the faith of some. So it's kind of a big
deal to claim that the dead in Christ have risen
already have been taken to heaven. So it seems like
kind of alto potentially big deal to claim that people
are already have I don't know, I'm just I'm just kind
of Can you read the text one more time? The

(01:23:40):
Timothy one? Yeah, happily, But avoid irreverent babel, for it
will lead people into more and more ungodliness, and their
talk will spread like gangreen. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philinus,
who have swerved from the truth saying that the resurrection
has already happened. They are upsetting the faith of some HM.

(01:24:00):
So I think two things are happening. They're they're claiming
I think this are an example of the first post
millennials or like ohting we're out, we're in the we're
in the rain or whatever. Okay, but also the idea
of they saw it as this distinct everyone comes up
at once. Sure, so there's okay, so everyone who dies

(01:24:24):
is just no more resurrection, which is also false because
there's a second resurrection, but that's for the bad people.
I just wanted to did you have more questions on
that before I continue, so I can get another to
point out that like the first fruits, it this is aligned.
The metaphor of this is aligned with the harvest. The
idea is at the very beginning of the harvest, there's

(01:24:45):
there's like a little bit of first fruits, a little
bit of stuff that ripens early that you get to
pay appetizers, but the main harvest all happens at once. Yeah,
you know, just like picking each head as it ripens, right,
that would be awful. But you have a little hint
of like, oh, this is what the fruit of this
crop is going to be. Yeah. Yeah, And I think

(01:25:09):
in rebuttal to your earlier thing of you know, over
years of development of doctrine and faith, people have become
more and more like this. Our current view has happened
because we're more and more confident. Sure, I think that
there is drift that happens. Sure where certainly as culture changes,
we lose some of that mooring of when the Bible
talks about these metaphors, it means a specific image, and

(01:25:30):
we don't live in that culture anymore, so we start
to see things differently where things back then, some of
them were really clear to the people that we have
to do a little digging to kind of understand how
they would have understood it. Sure, and I do think
the Bible is going to be like applicable to all
ages and understandable to all ages. But there are certain
levels of understanding you're not going to reach in the

(01:25:51):
Bible if you're only looking through your cultural lens instead
of the predisposition of the culture it was said to
the terms of phrases were used for that culture, such
as the nature of language and you know stuff. I
think it's interesting that the metaphor we primarily use now
is passing, and I think that that's a pagan conception

(01:26:11):
of like passing through the veil as opposed to being asleep,
being dead and resurrecting. And maybe it's the drift has
been instead of staying rooted in the correct metaphor and
the correct understanding that is pretty severe of like you
are dead, that we've replaced it with this like, oh,
we immediately pass through the veil because go be with Jesus.

(01:26:34):
I think, like, and I understand why people think this way,
and I'm not even necessarily saying it's wrong to be like, well,
death doesn't mean anything, that's just a chance of address,
because that is true. However, I think because we have
this luxury in where we're at in understanding of the Bible,
that we don't understand how big a deal death stal
is how and by that I mean we we almost

(01:26:59):
see it as like a ought a foe anymore. And
the Bible says it hasn't been defeated yet, it hasn't
been defeated yet, and it diminishes our understanding of what
Jesus has done. If we don't feel that sting of death. Sure,
I'm I'm I'm probably splitting heres here, But just like

(01:27:20):
the no, I think I understand what you're saying, because
I think we've we've watered down the idea of death
so much that I think what you're saying is because
we've watered it down so much in the name of Jesus,
we are actually losing the significance of what he did. Yeah,
because it's not just that he saved us from our sins.
He saved us from death right, and we still have

(01:27:42):
to go through the valley of the Shadow of death,
but he's with us. But we might circle back to that.
Let's move on to unless you had more hand good
John eleven eleven, if you want to pull up that passage.
I have a couple things straight from there. The first
is just one verse after saying these things Jesus, he

(01:28:04):
said to them, our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep, but
I go to awaken him. So he's you know, he's
the one who starts this metaphor. Yeah, I understanding of
you know, he's he's not dead like he's it almost
if you're if you're looking at this from not a
biblical standpoint, like from not a Christian standpoint. I could
almost see how you'd be, like, is this kind of denial,
like the whole lyre lunatic lord thing? I can see

(01:28:25):
how people were, like Jesus needs an intervention. He's going
around telling people that dead people who are rotting are
just sleeping. Do we do we do we have prozac
at this time? And and like in this point in time,
can we invent prozac real quick? And maybe this is
pushback to this idea that like you need to understand
the series of death because like Jesus is the one
who's who's true, making the concept much lighter into sleep

(01:28:45):
instead of death. So rather let me rephrase my stance
then to adjust for your very good point, instead of
being like, we need to understand the severity of death
of like we need to understand what the metaphor is
of like it's okay because death is awful, but we're
just sleeping, not but we just we're going to heap
like we're sleeping. We'll wake up right right. Well, that's
the thing Jesus. Jesus isn't saying. Our friend Lazarus is

(01:29:08):
with Jesus, but I'll go get him. But so I
remember this song on like old You're right and then
with God, our friend Lazarus is in heaven with God,
but I'm going to go yake him back down to earth.
I remember this song that played on like the Christian
radio station we grew up with, which is like a

(01:29:30):
really old school like old seeing old country. It's not
old country of like that old gospel stuff. And there's
this song of like Jesus didn't cry like it was
about it was it was about how Jesus wept. And
the song was about how Jesus cried because he had
to bring Lazarus back from heaven and that's why he cried.

(01:29:52):
And I remember thinking if that's the case, how awful.
Why would he do that to him? Right? Right? He's
not doing Lazarus a favor, right, imagine like spending what
four four days? Yeah, yeah, four days in heaven and
being joined back to the earth by Jesus so bad.

(01:30:14):
I think he cried because he felt their pain, right,
because they lost their brother, right, yeah, and this is
his friend, and I think that he like understands the
weight of what death is that his friend is there
is dead. But yeah, I like that, like he's Lazarus
wasn't with God. He was just asleep because in some respects.

(01:30:39):
So two things. First of all, a meme and then
I have to get to my point. Just I am
the way. Remind me if I forget what I'm gonna say. Okay,
that's the waite phrase, that's my deep Okay. But there's
a meme of Jesus praying and it's like, Hi God,
it's me you. So this person was talking about how
they were in Italy. I'm gonna the details. Wronging doesn't matter.

(01:31:01):
Consider this a parable. They're in Italy. I'm not gonna
say that every time. I want to tell a story
without creak to details. And they're trying to go somewhere
and they didn't know where, like how to get to
where they're trying to go, and they were asking this
person and the guy was like trying to explain and
she's like, so I go in the middle, and he's
like it's clear she's not getting it, and he's like,

(01:31:22):
follow me, I am the way and just walks her there.
And it was like, oh, that's one way to look
at what Jesus says. I am the way, Like follow me,
I am the way, and the guide leads, so like
The reason I bring that up is, is there a
way in which we view death like we see death
as like we get to just skip out on all
this awfulness because Jesus paid for it. And but are

(01:31:45):
you sure it's not like I am the way through
the value of the town of death. Just follow me
through death right into resurrection right instead of you just
it's almost because it's almost like like, oh, I get
a free pass from all this horrible stuff. I just
never have to like wright, But and I don't think
that's what the gospel's trying to say. And well, if
part of the metaphor is the arc going through the flood,

(01:32:06):
like you're being preserved through it and God gives you
this way through it, but like they still had to
go through the flood. And this is this is why
I think that people use that verse Baptist baptism now
saves you trying to trying to say that, like the
sprinkle of water saves you. And it's what he's talking about,
is this passage through saves you. I don't even think

(01:32:26):
he's talking about water baptism. This is the distinction of
spiritual baptism, of like being born again in the spirit
dying with Christ and being raised again saves you, saves you. Yeah,
and I think he's talking about just like you. Yeah,
I think I paid my point. The metaphor, yes, the thing,
the metaphor is the metaphor of saves. Yeah. Yeah. Like

(01:32:49):
there's the baptism that we do in water, and there's
a baptism that we can't do, which is the circumcision
of the heart, which is the actual act of salvation,
because it's not the washing off of dirt but the
pledge of a clean conscience. Anyway, I'm getting on handance,
but we actually still need John eleven. I'm sorry. Oh come,

(01:33:11):
We're going to scroll down two verse twenty. That just
one day. So when Martha heard that Jesus was coming,
she went and met with him. But Mary remained seated
in the house. I feel like she was angry and
she didn't want to see him. Oh yeah, he didn't come. Yeah.

(01:33:33):
Martha said to Jesus, Lord, if you had been here,
my brother would not have died. But even now I
know that whatever you ask from God, God will give you.
That's not a crazy manafact to being like, if you
went here, you wouldn't have died. But also there's still
hope because you're here. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he yeah,
does not. I heard this point made about Job of
like God doesn't get mad at Job for all like

(01:33:55):
the mean things that Job said him because Job was praying. Yeah,
and here too. Martha's like, but she's talking to him. Yeah,
she's mad. She's talking to He's like, God's like, I
just want you to talking to me, yeah, and also
like talking in faith of like yeah, anyway, but even

(01:34:15):
Jesus said to her, your brother will rise again. Martha
said to him, I know that he will rise again
in the resurrection on the last day, so you know
that whole Like he's Yeah, Jesus said to her, I
am the Resurrection and the Life. Whoever believes in me,
though he die, yet he shall he live, and everyone
who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do
you believe this, She said to him, Yes, Lord, I

(01:34:36):
believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God
who is coming into the world. So this this thing
of like it's almost like he's saying two different things.
But I think it's just trying to explain a concept
that's not translatable into our understand You're gonna die but
you're not going to die. Yeah, though he shall die,
though he die, yet he shall live, or yet shall
you live. Everyone who lives and believes in me shall

(01:34:59):
never die. So it's like, but you just said we die, right,
I think it's we're not going to die in the
way that those who don't believe in God die. Right.
We experience what we consider death now, but it is
sleep compared to what is Actually It's like saying no
one went through the flood. Yes, like I didn't draw, sure,
like you did do that, sure, but like not remotely

(01:35:19):
the same willing that all the people who works in
the art and it went through the flood. Yeah, you
went through the flood in a boat. The boat part
is kind of important, right, do I hear crying? If
you do, it's John's purview too, John, get by the way,

(01:35:40):
I think it's Gideon. Yeah, it's Gideon. It did sound
like a Gideon food. I cannot, I can. I'll just
I'll just text John real quick, all right, go on
do Okay, So if you want to pull up that link,
Daniel twelve, want to do? This is what it actually
all started it for me because I read this person.
I was like, wait, a second, those felt the nasty

(01:36:02):
soul sleepers, they have a verse that works for them.
So actually, if you want to scroll us back up
to the previous verse just for some context, can text
and it starts with at that time, So what time
we talked about, And he shall pitch his palatial tents
between the sea and the glorious Holy Mountain. Yet shall
he come to his end with them to help him.
So this is apocalyptic vision talking about things that are

(01:36:25):
to come. I don't know why I'm yawning. You're like
apocalyptic vision. I'm like, oh, can you like, are you
trying to say apocalyptic fiction? It's not. I've been doing
my list of I'm doing a list of all my
books of the writing fiction a lot. And so the
context of this is he's talking about revelation, like the
things that are going to happen before the end. So
at that time shall arise Michael, the Great Prince, who

(01:36:47):
has charge of your people, And there shall be a
time of trouble such as never has been since there
was a nation till that time. So this is the tribulation.
But at that time your people shall be delivered everyone
whose name shall be found written in the books. These
are all Christians, and many of those who sleep in
the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting
life and some to shame and everlasting contempt. So that

(01:37:09):
idea of okay, there are people who are sleeping in
the dust, they're going to a wake. So and I
think the important thing too is if you are in
heaven or in Hell already you already know where you're going.
But this is like you wake up and you find
out where you're going. This is interesting too because you
could argue that this was written before Jesus, but it

(01:37:30):
is written about the time after Jesus. Yes, so it
was written for Jesus. But it seems to indicate there's
a continuity of how things are done before and how
things are done in between until the very end. And
I mean that doesn't mean God didn't sit and parsel
a little tiny details so that people who are nerds
like me can have all that. But well, this seems

(01:37:51):
to be a different conception than the Parable of Lazarus
or the story of Lazarus and the rich Man in Hades.
So I would argue that this is the the sleeping
is only happening after Jesus. Yeah, which in the dustine
waking up to some to eternal life and some too.

(01:38:12):
And it is also kind of why I would maybe
argue that that is just a parable that they are sleeping.
But God is making the point. He's not telling the
story to describe how heaven Issuel works. He's telling you
the story to describe, say, this conversation happened, this is
how it would go down. Sure, but I could be
really wrong. Yeah, but well, also so I know, not

(01:38:35):
the same Lazarus as the different Lasars. It's funny, it's
interesting that they both have a have a story about death.
I do think that like Jesus, that the description of
things in the Lazarus parable, I'm gonna call it a

(01:38:55):
parable still make sense of what Jesus did of like
you're gonna be with me today in Paradise, Yeah, in
describing what that means. And I think maybe part of
it is just he's using like the human descriptions of
consciousness to describe something that might not fit either conception

(01:39:16):
of CAUs like my group dream theory where they're all
telepathetically late. Well, I mean I think that goes to
like there's a bunch of different descriptions of hell, and
like the way that you're kind of taught about it
about hell as a kid in church is like just flame,
and it's like it's literal flame, is a little flame
or metaphorical flame, And I'm like, well, there's way. But

(01:39:37):
but it's also described as worms. Yeah, and it's also
described as like rot so and I think it's also
described as very cold. I could be maybe I could
be talking out of my butt without one. That could
be just talking about sheil that's cold. I could be right.
But the point is like that there's a lot of
different descriptions of like here's something that you know to

(01:39:59):
describe what hell is. So I don't think that hell
is literal flame in the sense that it's not that.
I think it's I think the people, most of the
people were like hell with that literal fire. No, it's
not that bad, Like, yes, it's that bad, but it's
that bad in a way that can't be described with
human terms. So no, it's not literal human earth fire

(01:40:21):
or human earthworms. It's just those are the metaphors for
what it is. All demons are worm. I've answered the question,
it's the worms, but it's kind of like to quote
mega mind, think of the worst. To the loosely quote,
think of the worst thing you could possibly think of,
and then multiply it by six, Like fire is really bad.
Think of that the worse multiply by six. Yeah. I

(01:40:45):
always think it's funny that whole conversation is a literal flames. Well,
of course, of course not. I feel like flames will
be good in comparison. Yes, So let's now get to
two more potential objections. Because I got sidetracked with all
the things that are potential proofs, let's go back to
two potential objections. Okay, Acts seven fifty four to two

(01:41:08):
sixty sixty. I wish I had scrolled before the show sixty. Okay. Now,
when they heard these things, they were enraged, and they
ground their teeth at him. But he full of he
being Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven
and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at
the right hand of God. And he said, behold, I
see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing

(01:41:30):
at the right hand of God. But they cried out
with a loud voice, and stopped their ears and rushed
together at him. Then they cast him out of the
city and stoned him, and the witnesses laid down their
garments at the feet of a young man named Saul,
and as they were surrounding Stephen, he called out, Lord
Jesus received my spirit, and falling to his knees, he
cried out with a loud voice, Lord, do not hold
this in against them. And when he had said this,
he fell asleep. So this is used as an objection

(01:41:51):
because people will be like, well, look, he looks directly
to heaven, and so that negates full sleep. But then
at the very end it says he fall asleep, not
he went to be with old that. Yeah. But also
if you look at the text, if you look at
the order of events, he has the vision of glory
instead of man sitting in the right hand of God
before they start zoning him. Yes, this is not a
description of what he's seeing as he's dying. Yes, So

(01:42:13):
people will use it as like, this is proof you
went to heaven. No it's not. It's just proof that
he is seeing a vision of what is happening in
heaven right now, and then he fell asleep right If anything,
this is a better text for soul sleep than it
is for interesting The point of the vision. I think, well,
two things. I think it was to reassure him. It

(01:42:34):
was what got them to stone him, because he is
saying Jesus is in heaven right at the right hand
of God. Right, he is seeing this thing to testify
to them, which they then reject. But this is like
a God making something clear to them. Yeah, this is
not a prescriptive thing on this is how heaven works.
I mean, it is prescripted in terms of Jesus in
Heaven's right hand. But yeah, I'm glad that you brought

(01:42:56):
up this objection because I think that a lot of
these types of objects exist in just like regular like
the Christian mythos where you hear a bunch of these
different stories, and in in great Christian literature of like
I think Corey ten Boom describes when her sister died
in the camp, which Ravens Brook, right, I believe, So

(01:43:19):
that sounds right that that like at the end, her
face like looks like she's seeing heaven. It's it's what
Frank said about Charlie where he said he was looking
past me into heaven. And I'm a little bit unclear
about like, I don't think he was actually saying he
saw joy on his face. But sometimes in these situations

(01:43:39):
it does seem like that the people describe joy in
their faces. What do you say to that. This is
just my take on the Stephen thing, trans you know,
transposing him to the Charlie thing and into the Ravens
Brook thing. I think it is very possible we see
a vision of where we're going, but that doesn't mean
that because we're physically entering there right then and then

(01:44:02):
right right then there. I think I think God is
very very merciful, and when facing especially the horror of
a death like these happen, when death is really really bad,
God gives you something so that like you don't even
feel a suffering or the right And it's not a
commentary on where the soul is seeing it because it's
leaving the body and going into heaven. It could be
it could be I could be wrong, but a commentary

(01:44:22):
of like you're going to see this when you wake out,
so rest okay, right, I think that that that can
be true. And I've heard and I'm gonna I'm going
to butcher this. There's a scientific thing where at the
very moment of death, can are you able to say
it better than at your point of death, your brain
releases just like a shit ton of d empty, like
you are on hard drugs. And that's in that moment

(01:44:47):
is when people have their near death experiences, like those
weird things. Yeah, so I think and I do actually
want to do a lot of research on near death
experiences and stuff like that. I have a book called
Lucid Dying that I want to read. Yeah, I know
it's a great title. But often people in terms like
because well, people will have very similar experiences, like a
similar concept, but people have similar experiences on LSD because

(01:45:08):
that's how the drug works. So I think people take
it as we're desperate to see a glimpse of what
happens after death, So they'll take it as kind of like, well,
this is what happens after death, and it's like, well,
this is how the brain functions on DMT, right, and
the conception of consciousness and the conception of yourself, and
it could be that you're seeing into heaven, right. But
I think the problem is people rely on that so

(01:45:29):
much as a proof of heaven, and I think the
science is like, well, it's just DMT, so you heaven
isn't real, right, and I think that there's something true
right in the middle of that that goes back to
your earlier idea, which is that DMT the reason you
should never as a Christian take these drugs is that
it does pull you across the veil, and so once

(01:45:51):
you're over there, God can absolutely easily take that over
and go, hmm, She's not going to see anything scary here.
I'm going to give her a vision of heaven. Her
mind's wide open to it. It's on d MT. Like
that's the thing with DMT, You're wide open to the
spiritual world. So God can just as easily use that
as you're in danger when you when you step out

(01:46:12):
of the created order and put yourself in that situation,
and God may or may not protect you in that.
And I I have a couple friends who have said
they made a terrible error and and God did protect
them at that, but that's not but they were also
I think there's only a friend might be a strong word,

(01:46:35):
but somebody I had talked to who was trapped in
like the consequences of that for a long time, but
that God saved him out offit because it does rewire
your brain. Yeah. Now, also she'd had a connection. So
the idea of you know, seeing yourself in heaven, like
having this vision of yourself being in heaven, doesn't mean

(01:46:55):
you're physically present in heaven. The reason I say that
is because we have experiences of the New Testament, sorry,
the Old Testament. Prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel get caught up
into heaven in the spirit. This is the same with
john revelation. So they're caught up in the spirit. They
haven't died, right, And so that doesn't mean Okay, once

(01:47:16):
you die, your spirit goes there because God is doing
something specific to show you something, right, And there's some
topic of like does the spirit actually go there? Is
that what they're trying to say, or are they saying that, like,
your spirit has this window into heaven right now to
see a thing. I think we're just we see one
thing and we think got automatically means the next thing.
And I think what I'm trying to learn is that
like this thing means this exact thing, and maybe it

(01:47:36):
doesn't mean a single thing past that, right, And maybe
you could you could argue this is you could argue
that in the same way that John is caught up
to heaven in the spirit that anyone whose body is
dead is caught up to heaven in the spirit, they're
still tethered to their dead body. They're still dead. They
can't participate in have in the way that they would

(01:47:58):
be able to with the body and will be able
to in the resurrection, but they still might kind of
be there. This is a really good segue, because I
was all I was going to say, the DMT thing
might be like the start of a really good dream
that you have. Then you're like you're dreaming yourself in heaven.
You're not there, like your soul is still in the
body sleeping, but when you're having a bad dream. But
this is a great segue to Revelation six nine to eleven,

(01:48:19):
which is used as another objection. Okay, mouse, So when
he opened the fifth Seal, I saw under the altar
the souls of those who had been slain for the
word of God and for the witness they had borne.
They cried out with a loud voice, O, Sovereign, Lord,

(01:48:39):
Holy and True, how long before you will judge and
avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth.
Then they were each given a white robe and told
to rest a little longer until the number of their
fellow serpents and their brothers should be complete, who were
to be killed as they themselves had been. Okay, so
that's almost exactly what I just described of Like they're sleeping,
they're under the altar, they're kind of there, but they're
kind of not. He's like, gome back to sleep. So

(01:49:01):
the reason I bring this up is that this is
used as like, look, the souls on the matters are
in heaven. Soul sleep is a failure to launch. Let's
look what the past. Just go back to sleep. Literally,
pretend you haven't noticed that. I'm glad that you noticed. So,
first of all, this is an apocalyptic book with very
heavy figurative language, much of it seemingly impenetrable. It doesn't

(01:49:24):
mean that there aren't literal portions. It just means that
we need to judge by context and like when it
comes to like the granular stuff, it might be saying
something that we first think. So remember how I said,
this means it's the exact thing and nothing past that.
This is an exception. Little This is why, like the Bible,
you cannot read it through the same exact lens. In
every single book you have to look at Okay, what

(01:49:44):
is the context, what is the language being used? Here's
a genre. Yeah, there is so much, and how you like,
you have to actively think as you're reading or you'll
miss stuff or just not understand stuff by telling me
you have to think when I read the Bible, yes,
I'm doing violence to you. Should sue me for that.
So again, John is seeing this is in this spirit,
So he's seeing a spiritual truth that may or may
not be a one for one representation of the physical. It.

(01:50:08):
It's just like how a parable is, like it's not
the exact thing, but it's to make a different point.
But also, prophecy is inherently cryptic for a reason, and
the reason is for sall spoilers. But second of all,
the devil would not have played into God's hand if
he knew that he was playing into God's hand about
like Jesus writing but then after the fact you knew

(01:50:31):
exactly Okay, Like that makes sense. It played out And
now I'm like, a, well, how didn't we see that?
But let's look at the context clues. So the souls
of the martyr are under the altar. Maybe this is
just me, but what I think of my future in heaven.
I don't think of myself as trapped under furniture right, right,
and like a holding pattern, right even in just like
the temporary period. Although like your point, so that to

(01:50:52):
me this indicates that's a clue there's something else going
on here then our conception. Another clue is that they
are asking God how much longer before their blood is
seems a little odd to me that for those who
have entered into their final rest to be so concerned
with what matters on earth, right, Like they're in I
don't know if they're in pain, but they're in a
certain amount of like, God, come on, like there, how

(01:51:13):
much longer do we need to wait? There's a certain
amount of anguish, I would say, yeah, yeah, yeah. It
seems like they're resting fitfully because they're you know, being
told to go back to sleep essentially right, because they're
still waiting for final closure. And so to me, it
seems very clear that they haven't reached that marker in
heaven of God webs every year from their eyes, right,
so something isn't finished yet, which means something hasn't been

(01:51:34):
made perfect yet. Heaven doesn't seem like a place for
unfinished perfect things, like things fall short of perfection in
that capacity, right, So it seems that in their sleep
on earth, they are crying out to God in Heaven,
and that potentially under the altar is kind of less
a reference to a physical location and more reference to
their lives being sacrificed for the kingdom. But your thing
is good too. Sorry, I just back my microphone of

(01:51:55):
the idea of them basically like communicating to Heaven in
their sleep, yeah, or being in there in the spirit. Well,
I think there's there's another point in Revelation where one
of the angels like pours something onto the altar. That's
the prayers of twice Yeah, the present Saints, the President,
the saints. So there's some connection with the altar and

(01:52:16):
Earth and the souls and all of that anyways, right, Yeah, Well,
I mean the altar on earth is how you can
communicate with God and in terms of like I mean
you pray, but like the direct line to God is
the altar of like making yourself right with Him. So
it seems like an indication of like these people have
a direct line to God. That's that's what through blood
under the al yeah, because their blood is spilled. Yeah, Okay,

(01:52:40):
So then some more potential objections. There's uh, I'm gonna
I don't have links to them. I'm just gonna read
three verses and then we'll talk about them as a lump.
So Ecclesiastes eight eight A. So chapter eight, verse eight,
first part. No man has power to retain the spirit
or power over the day of death one King, seventeen
twenty one to twenty two. Then he being Elijah, stretched
himself on the child of this is of the widow

(01:53:01):
whose child died three times, and cried to the Lord,
Oh Lord, my God, let this child's life come into
him again. And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah,
and the life of the child came into him again,
and he revived. It's important to note that the KJV
translates life, translates life as soul. Here, so the soul
of the body returning. And so I think a lot
of the people who are referring like talking against soul

(01:53:21):
sleep might be using that conception that is put in
by the language choices of the KJV. Okay, and then
Genesis thirty five, eighteen A. And there's many verses like
this that talk about people giving up the ghosts and
as her soul was departing for she was dying, so
her soul leaving. My take on these three previous passages
is that they're referring to the breath of life. So
the Bible talks about soul and spirit. This is where

(01:53:43):
we get to like making a distinction now, okay, but
until then, it's just important to recognize if it's the
spiritual side, there's a physical side. Yeah, yeah, but it
seems like the soul and spirit have different functions. There
are different things, and there's a lot of debate. I
don't think that there's any set in and I think
that that would like going into it like really granular
would probably be a whole show. Yeah. But for the

(01:54:06):
purposes of my theory and how I approach this is
that one of them, whether it's the spirit or the soul,
I'm inclined to think spirit is the breath of God.
So when that leaves us, that is what actually causes death. Theoretically,
we could be just mangled and rotting, but if we
had the breath of God's in us, we'd be alive.
M but that once that breath leaves, and we have
no power to keep that breath of God in us.

(01:54:26):
He takes it back when it is time to take
it back. But the soul is another matter. Right, So
we've got the body that is, body and soul are
intertwined together, and they are made alive by the breath
of God. The body is made alive by the breath
of God, and I think the soul. Yes. So anyway,

(01:54:46):
that's that's my take on tho passages. But I feel
like you had a thought. It was something about DNA
and it wasn't fully formed, but it was this idea
of like, if the spirit is the breath of God.
They talk about like man's spirit is strong or man's
spirits weak, Like who you are as a person is
not not whether that like strength or weakness that's in

(01:55:10):
your body. That there are people who show a strength
of spirit far beyond their body, but that's not necessarily
anything to do with their DNA or even their like soul. Yeah,
So I was just trying to parse that out a
little bit in my mind. It could it could be
the guy gives us his breath in different measures, I

(01:55:30):
was I yeah, yep, and even at different moments, in
different measures. Also when I was reading Psalms, earlier this month,
I want to say, or last month, maybe maybe last month.
I realized that when David talked about his soul, he's
talking a lot about his emotions. And I had not
thought of emotions and soul being this Like, yeah, I

(01:55:52):
had thought of emotions being very more body because emotions
are often hormones. But yeah, there's the emotions that you're
boy imposes on you, and then there's emotions you have
that you impose on your body's going. Yeah, But David's like,
my soul paints and my soul's like he talks a
lot about like this anguish of the soul, and I'm like, oh,
so you're talking the soul is like heart, the way

(01:56:15):
that like our current Western culture talks about heart like
my heart is sick or whatever, and huh. I think also,
I think part of our issues we separate the spirit
in the body so or the soul in the body
so much that we don't see that they are kind
of I think, two sides of the same coin. Yeah,
they're deeply connected. It was like my flesh and the
thing that lives in the flesh. Well, because some cultures

(01:56:40):
instead of saying the heart or the soul they say,
the bowels see the emotions beels. And it's interesting to
know that there is a sciences discovering that there is
some neural tissue in the heart, and I think in
the bowels too. Mm, so there is some you know,
like the feeling of the head and the heart separated.
Like I know in my head that this bad thing
is over and I shouldn't feel bad about it, but
you just feel pain in your heart because there is

(01:57:02):
some neural tissue, like some memory there too. And I
do still do want to do an episode at some
point on people transplants, yes, and memories, and I think,
I honestly think we're gonna find out every single part
of the body has its own memory. Anyway, before I
get to off base. Lots of fun stuff. There's also

(01:57:22):
I don't have a reference for this because I throw
this in last minute. Ephesians four eight to ten is
another potential objection. It says Therefore, it says, when he ascended,
being Jesus on high, he led a host of captives,
and he gave gifts to men. So I should have
actually brought this up earlier. But then I continue and
saying he ascended, What does it mean? But that he
also descended into the lower regions the earth. He who

(01:57:43):
descended is the one who also ascended far above all
the region heavens, that he might fill all things. So
two things. Michael Heiser points out, the translation the lower
regions of the Earth is kind of a bad translation,
and it's probably lower regions of the Earth speaking about shield.
So this could detentially be understood as when Jesus died,
he went into Shiel, and he ascended with a host

(01:58:06):
of captives, and he gave gifts, which is I think
like the gifts of the spirit. So I didn't write
any commentary on this, so that's really helpful. So this
is the potential of like, well, it looks like he
freed all the souls of the righteous from Shiel and
brought them to Heaven when he went them. And this
is what I don't necessarily have a rebuttal on I

(01:58:28):
think I thought I did, but I didn't write it down.
I think also it's partially just because how you're understanding
of what your predisposition of or your preconception of what
he's talking about. Is he ascending on high. So when
Jesus died, a bunch of people came out of their tombs. Yeah,
is this what it's talking about? Where he led a
host of captives out of death and when he's ascending,

(01:58:49):
it's talking about He's not talking about the ascension into Heaven,
but the ascension from Shiel back to Earth. Possibly, don't,
I don't think, because later he says, I have not
ascended to my father yet exactly. Yeah, So I think
this kind of this would need more study in terms
of like, what is the context? What is he referring
to you here? Specifically? It could be a rebuttal. This
is one of those things where I don't think every

(01:59:09):
verse is going to work for my theory. And that's okay,
because I think that my theory is not exactly. It
might be closer to understanding, in my opinion than the
other one, but it is not the fullness of the
conception because I don't think we But if anyone in
comments is like, I kind of explain this, love to
hear what you have to say, and then I think

(01:59:30):
one more rebuttal. Okay, possibly I think we're gonna keep going.
This is sorry, this is taking longer than I thought. So,
so Jesus appearing with Moses and Elijah. This isn't so
much a rebuttal of soul sleep, except that people will
be like, well, I mean they're there and spirit Jesus
took them down from heaven. Whatever, so let's just talk

(01:59:52):
about it. It's also it also gets used as proof
of like we can interact with the dead. So basically
two things here. The Bible seems ate that no one
preceeded Jesus to heaven. So when Elijah was taken up
or did he go second King's two eleven b does
say and Elijah went up by a world world went
into heaven. I looked into what the meaning of that
word that is translated as heaven, because a lot of

(02:00:13):
words are translated heaven. Yes, this I think is more
Heaven's the sky. So it's not saying he went up
to paradise. He's saying he was taken up into the sky,
is my understanding. Turn it to mention with the angels
same as enot Yeah, or even just literally he physically
disappeared up in the sky like I saw him, and
he got smaller like a bird until he was gone.
So I could be wrong on this, but it seems

(02:00:35):
to be that it's not. It's not saying he went
directly to heaven. So where did he go? My theory
it's still I still have I've seen an excellent counterpoint.
It's not I don't have the time to talk about
it today. But my theory is we have two people
in the Bible who were taken up. So God doesn't
do this often, and he doesn't do things with no reason.

(02:00:56):
So I suspect that Enoch and Elijah were taken up
up and then immediately dropped down into the end times
where they serve as the two witnesses. That's my belief.
There could be gods up to something else, could be
that they just I don't know. Oh, could be all
the flying saucer things we've seen is just Elijah's chariot
still flying around. More on Eddie knocks, both of them

(02:01:20):
Eddie knocks are yes, Well, you know, it's just I
think floating. I don't think he's a chariot. Well it
so it just says that nobody knows, like nobody witnessed
him going up. You're right, he could have had a chariot.
He can walked with God and he was not. So
I think that whatever vehicle took eligis probably the same
exact vehicle, that enough, but nobody saw it. It's probably
the wheels with the eyes thing. So but Moses, however,

(02:01:45):
we do know that Moses died and was an Abraham's bosom.
But that is interesting because there's this that was there. Okay,
you're gonna get into the dispute over Moses's body. I wasn't,
but I was thinking about it, so you're allowed to
bring it up. So I find it really interesting because
because for me, E not can Ali to have more
in common than Moses and Elijah. But the traditionally the

(02:02:09):
two witnesses are going to be Moses and Elijah, and
I actually kind of think it's going to be two
completely different people, right altogether they were there when we
heard the other potential option. But but but there is
this whole thing I think than Jude extra biblically but

(02:02:30):
referenced in Jude about Michael fighting for the body of Moses,
a dispute over his and and then it's like, why
does God need the body of Moses? Why is it
so important? Why is this so important? And I believe
the Bible does specify that. I think in Jude that
we don't know where Moses was buried. Yeah, it's assumed

(02:02:51):
he was buried on the mountain. So in the scenario
where the disciples are kind of I think that they're
at the bottom of the mountain and they're looking and
they see Jesus commuting with Moses and Elijah or now
there's a mountain, they see them. They don't have to
worry about where they're sitting stage left or right or whatever.

(02:03:12):
And so Moses went up Sinai to meet with the
God to receive the law Sinai, right, yeah, yeah, and
you I think might remember I'm hoping that you remember
the proofs better than I do of when he was
up receiving the law from God. That was Jesus, like
that was a Christophany that he was commuting with. So, okay,

(02:03:34):
there is this there's this idea that there is a
moment where each of them is on a mountain. And
I'm not going to put it very well, but the
I the idea would is it's not Sinai, it's Horre.
I think Cora is say, is it Herman? Oh? Yeah,

(02:03:54):
so Herman is the one that Jesus is on. Moses
and Elijah both were on sina but they both thought.
I thought the idea was they both had. It doesn't matter,
It doesn't matter. The idea is that through through a
miraculous folding of time, it is the exact same moment
that Jesus isn't meeting with Elijah and Moses after their deaths,

(02:04:14):
he is meeting with them in their lives, yes, in
like across time. And I love that. I love that,
And that's what I have my notes here, Like we're
seeing a snapshot of time where basically a moment in
history happened in three separate places all yes, which I
mean you have you have the Trinity, which is like

(02:04:35):
God in three, So it doesn't it's not outside of
the realm of possibility. I mean, God can do anything,
but it's not outside of the realm of possibility for
us to have a moment in history that is three
places in one because like you know, and these were
all like Moses, and Moses and Elijah were really special people.
Sign note. I just realized that if Moses is one
of the two witnesses, that means that God lied and

(02:04:58):
he did get to go into the Promised Land. Yeah,
so I don't think that that would be It can't
be I think so. Also, I had a thought right
as you were saying that, oh, this is I think
this is a prime example of hearing things added on.
So we're looking at something that I think we just
don't fully understand what's happening. Something really spiritual is happening, right,

(02:05:22):
So anytime, for any reason people say, you know, this
passage is proof of X y Z, I think it's
a bit of intellectual arrogance to be like, I understand
exactly what is happening here and what is meant by it,
instead of being like, this is a mystery. Yeah, and
all I can do is be like, God, I would
love to know more, not like this is proof of

(02:05:42):
my hobby horse or whatever. Another note here, yes, because
potentially potentially how do I put this, Okay, put it well?
Preferably the idea could be that the whole point of

(02:06:03):
going to war for the body of Moses was to
resurrect it, that that Moses then like didn't in the
same way that Lazarus was resurrected and then and that
then he was taken in the same way as Elijah.
And not to like add too much to scripture there,
because that's it doesn't say that at all, And so
I would not remotely doramatically say that, but I think

(02:06:26):
that that would be the alternative to that they all
saw at the same time, in a moment throughout time,
but that but that Moses's body was also preserved. I
have two alternatives to your alternative. So, in terms of
what they're why they're speeding, I've always wondered if it
was so that Satan couldn't make people find the relics

(02:06:46):
so that people would pray to them. Sure, but are
you sure Satan didn't try to want to try to
resurrect Moses himself to use him as a flesh puppet
as d Antichrist. Is like thing interesting, Sorry, I keep
looking at you. I do. I'm like trying, really, I'm
like seeing you. I do find it so interesting that

(02:07:11):
there was a dispute that Michael, that Michael himself was
engaged in dispute over most under It feels really really important.
It feels more important than like, oh, they were going
to do idoltry, because like they did idoltry, they did
so much well, it was a really big deal when
they did idolatry. Well yeah, I mean, yeah, where did
I suggest otherwise? And and maybe it was like, but

(02:07:39):
there are so many heroes, David, like, there are so
many heroes. They do. They did know where their bones
were and they didn't desecrate their bones like that. Yeah,
but I think there's a way that the Jewish people
held Moses in a higher esteem than I think anyone else,
anyone else, potentially Abraham maybe, although I feel like David's
really high up there. He is, but in a different way.

(02:08:02):
He's high up there as a king and not as
the spiritual leader. Hmm, the man who because David was
an immediator between man and God, mostes was m Maybe
I do, And you could be completely right, it could
be completely about idolatry, but I just I personally find
that not super compelling. I'm like, no, give me a

(02:08:25):
better reason why they disputed over his body. I know,
before my flesh puppet theory. Anyway, So I've moved on
from the adultry one. No. I mean, it's very possible
that that was the first time that Satan had tried
to take a body and God just made it really
clear you're nothing. No, Yeah, and that he hadn't hasn't
tried again to take a body because he knows that
he would lose any body he tried to take. And

(02:08:48):
also a secret other option. I've lost track of things.
It might be the fourth option instead of what I envisioned,
is like an end Times thing of like resurrecting the
body friend and thing. What if Satan was just like
it's still warm, I'm going to resuscitate it and use
it to make the people miss out on the second
time in to Israel. Yeah, no, we we Yeah, we

(02:09:08):
might not. We might not know. I yeah, yeah, I
do think it could be something like that. But I
do wonder too if like what if you're going to
preserve if you're going to save a body, yes, are
you just saving it from what the back guy was
going to do to it? Or are you saving it
for a purpose? I think that's my big question of life. Yeah,
what's the What is then the purpose? And it could

(02:09:29):
be that he's sitting there not having rotten because he
needs to be brought back for being a witness at
the end Times or something maybe, or or that he
was brought back for that moment with Jesus or that
yeah on horrib or mm hmm. Whatever. Yeah, It's one
of those things where like it is important, but for us,
it's less important because there's like two verses about it, right,

(02:09:51):
and so clearly God doesn't need us to understand what's
going on there. But it's fun to talk about it.
It is really fun to talk about it, and it's
fun to even get heated about it and fight people
about it. Come on. But also in the interest of time,
we have a few more verses, and by that I
mean one of them is going to be a chapter. Okay,
I'm sorry, this is the long show I hear so
John twenty five to sorry, John five, twenty five to

(02:10:13):
twenty nine, twenty five. Truly, truly, I say to you,
an hour is coming and is now here, when the
dead will hear the voice of the Son of God,
and those who here will live. For as his father
has a life in himself, so he has granted the
Son also to have life in himself, and he has
given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the

(02:10:35):
son of man. Do not marvel at this, for an
hour is coming when all who are in the tombs
will hear his voice and come out, those who have
done good to the resurrection of life, and those who
have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. So I
think the first three verses of that are talking about
the spiritually dead, hearing and receiving the spiritual life. Yes,
But the last two verses are talking about the physically dead. Yes.

(02:10:55):
Love it when Jesus does that. I like that. And
then we have Philippians three eight to ten. Okay, indeed,
I count everything as a loss because of the surpassing
worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake,
I have suffered the loss of all things and count
them as rubbish, in order that I might gain Christ

(02:11:15):
and be found in him, not having a righteousness of
my own that comes from the law, but that which
comes through faith in Christ, as the righteousness from God
that depends on faith. That I may know Him and
the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings,
becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible,
I may attain the resurrection from the dead. I think
it's really really important because he doesn't say that by

(02:11:36):
any means possible, like it will go to heaven when
I die, but that my hope in following Christ is
that I will attain the resurrection from the dead. Yes,
to me, this is more clear than all the other passages.
Ok So I could have just saved two hours and
just done this one of that, Like Paul, is that
what the expectation is? Right? That whole language of going

(02:11:57):
to heaven when I die is is much more recent. Yeah,
it's going to heaven when I'm resurrected, I think is
the thing. But moving on to Revelation twenty, because this
is we need to get the big picture of view
of Okay, what are we even talking about, because anyone
who doesn't know the Bibles gonna be like, what the resurations?
So then I saw an angel coming down from heaven,

(02:12:19):
holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit
and a great chain. And he sees the dragon, that
ancient serpent who was the devil in Satan, and bound
him for a thousand years, and threw him into the
pit and shot it and sealed it over him so
that he might not deceive the nations any longer until
the thousand years were ended. After that he must be
released for a little while. A little context the in
the conception that Abby and I believe the rapture has

(02:12:42):
already happened before all this tribulation, and there's too long
of a conversation for now for how long we took,
but that that Thethylonians, Thethalonian, the Salonians, uh first Ethelonians
for thirteen to whatever is the perfects use of like
this is, you know, everyone's cut up, and that proceeds
the tribulation. The in I think second Thessalonians talks about

(02:13:04):
the restrain are being removed so that the man of
lawlessness can go, and that the idea is that you know,
the raptor has happen. The Holy Spirit is no longer
in dwelling the church, and the Holy Spirit is that's
restraining this, all this evil. So this is all happened,
and now we're, you know, kind of at the end
of the tribulation. Then I saw thrones, and seated on
them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed.
Also I saw the souls of those who had been

(02:13:25):
beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word
of God. So this was I think people who have
been killed during the tribulation, and those who had not
worshiped the beast or its image, and had not received
its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came
to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
We have a mini resurrection of just people who've died
in the resurrection in the tribulation who followed up. And
also bearing in mind that everyone else who was who

(02:13:48):
was caught up in the clouds was already right like
all the Christians before, These people have already been resurrected
and raptured. So all these people are alive, yes, And
the rest of the dead did not come to life
until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection,
blest of the dead who were not Christians. Yes, everyone
who followed God ever in their lives, is a life
at this point. Everyone else who didn't waiting till then, yeah, gotcha.

(02:14:11):
Blessed and Holy is the one who shares in the
first resurrection over such the second death has no power.
The second death is hell. But they will be priests
of God and of Christ, and they will reign with
Him for a thousand years. So that's the millennial Rain. Okay,
it doesn't mean nothing happens after thousands just you know,
they get to partake in the millennial Rain. And when
the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from
his prison and will come out to deceive the nations

(02:14:32):
that are at the four corners of the earth, Gog
and Magog to gather them for battle. Their number is
like the sand of the sea. And they marched up
over the broad plane of the earth and surrounded the
camp of the Saints and the beloved City. But fire
came down from heaven and consumed them. And the devil
who had deceived them, was thrown into the lake of
fire and sulf for where the beast and the false
prophet were, And they will be tormented day and night,
forever and ever. So that's what happens to the devil.

(02:14:53):
Then we scroll down a little bit. Then I saw
a great white throne, and him who was seated on it.
Earth and sky fled away, and no place was found
for them. I saw the dead, great and small, standing
before the throne, and the books were opened. Then another
book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And
the dead were judged by what was written in the books,
according to what they had done. And the sea gave

(02:15:14):
up the dead who were in it. Death and hades
gave up the dead who were in them. And they
were judged, each one of them according to what they
had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the
lake of fire. This is the second death the lake
of fire, and if anyone's name was not found written
in the Book of Life, he was thrown into the
lake of fire. So I think there might be some
distinction in this of anyone who's died during the Millennial reign.

(02:15:35):
Potentially there might be some people who still go to
heaven because those who fall God but died I don't
know for sure there and they're definitely gonna be things
I just don't understand. I feel like I'm hearing something,
but I think John still open that door. Yeah, it
is worth mentioning in case there's any confusion that the
judgment that the believers face where they received their due,

(02:15:55):
which happens before this, this is not happening along this.
They've already received. Judgment is not where God sits and
weighs their good deeds against their bad deeds in order
to determine if they get saved, but rather when God
decides what reward they've earned in heaven, what if their
work has survived, And that's talked about in First Corinthians three,
and I think chapter four. We're not going to go
into that, but if you want more context. Yeah, what's

(02:16:16):
important about Revelation twenty is that it talks about two
distinct resurrections and judgments. Again, it could be metaphorical. I
did talk earlier about their being metaphor, but given the
explicit order of events program, it seems unlikely. Those who
believe our spirit goes directly to Heaven the moment we
die seem to believe that our judgment happens before our
resurrection despite what scripture says, or that we hang out
in heaven before o judgment, which seems like slowly reasoning

(02:16:36):
to me, like you wouldn't be enjoying the fruits of
your labor before you've been judged for your labor. Yeah,
it just to me, it's like you're jumping the gun there. Sure. Furthermore,
those who say that death no longer affects believers at all,
but that our spirit goes directly to heaven when we
die must ignore this explanation of the order of events,

(02:16:57):
which was in First Corinthians fifteen fifty three. You don't
have to pull it up and just to reference it again.
For this perishable body must be put on the imperishable,
and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the
perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality,
then shall come to pass the saying that it is written,
death is swallowed up in victory. Oh death, Where is
your victory, Oh death, where is your sting? The sting
of death is sin, and the power of sin is

(02:17:17):
the law. But thanks be to God who gives us
the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Death is defeated,
but for us we don't celebrate that defeat. And till
the resurrection is my yes. But I will say like
discussions like this are interesting because I think it highlights
the things that Christians disagree about, like Calvinism versus or Medianism,
pre trib, pre trib, mid trib, post trib or pre
male post mail amail. You're gonna have various things you

(02:17:41):
can use as proof for all of them, because people
don't believe things out of the blue. I think the
people believe things for wrong reasoning at times. But I
think anytime you chase down one you can get really
far or really short ways, but there's always something where
it kind of hangs up on something. Sure, So I
don't think we should feel threatened when we're trying to
understand the mysteries of God that don't they're just not

(02:18:02):
compatible with our framework. I think we're all trying to
describe an elephant in the dark, and so some of
us are going to be right in ways that others
are not, and some of us are gonna be wrong
in ways that others are not right. And I think
it's one of those things where you can have a
pretty strong case and a decent certainty, but understand that
like we see through a mirror but dimly. And I
think the importance of these discussions is to just force

(02:18:24):
us to look more at the Bible and get to
know God better through that. Like that's that's when you
know you're winning. And it's not about being right. But
I think I think it makes sense to be Like, I,
to the best of my ability, want to understand what
the Bible has to say, and this is my understanding
of it. Other people see things differently, they hone in
on different things, they think differently. I feel like, point
my point, I'm yeah, kind of bel bring it. But yeah,

(02:18:46):
so given that, uh, I think it is important to
remember so remember how in the investment there be times
where the disciples would be like really stupid and they'd
be like, yayes, that's what is it me? And he's like,
oh my gosh, how much longer? So? Oh my me,
how much longer do I have to put up with you? Guys?
We're kind of all the disciples like all the time. Ever,

(02:19:08):
we're like, I don't get this thing, and it's probably
like a super obvious spiritual thing, right, so what does
this mean? Jesus? Like? How much longer? Go? But also
in a loving way. So, now that we've gotten through
all the introductory material, let's talk about ghosts. Oh goodness,
we're two hours, two hours and twenty minutes, and how

(02:19:30):
much more do you have? I was going to say,
if you want, what I can do is save all
the rest of this discussion, flesh it out, and make
another show of it. I think you should be because
I think we're at this point, we're probably too far
into it introduce a new concept. Yeah, sorry, No, you're
absolutely good. I was thinking that because I was like,
I did not expect it to take that long. I
should have because there was a lot of talking. I

(02:19:51):
just want to just double check to make sure there's
nothing else that I want to mention in this show,
because I think there was one other okay line and
the world quick fun Absolutely I thought that, and then
look good that revelation twenty bit was like that feels
like a great rapp And then I kept going, so

(02:20:13):
oh wow, liszt waited just after landing the plane retake
off and then crash it. What who saying? Having said
all of this, let's pretend that maybe Christians do go
to straight to heaven and the souls of the unregistered

(02:20:35):
do remain in torment in hades until the final resurrection.
This still works for my next discussion. Okay, So I
all this time doing a proof text that I do
not need in order to have a discussion that I
don't necessarily believe in the tune in the next time
or whatever I speak next to hear me talk more
about ghosts about things I know nothing about. So okay,
but this is good, Like we have set, you have set,

(02:20:56):
we have set. I contributed something a real good foundation,
biblical foundation from which to talk about ghosts, because we
have I think a lot of verses under our belts
now of like what happens after you die? For both
believers and on believers, and there's probably more that I
can pull up now that I have time to add
more things. I am excited. I want to like pull

(02:21:17):
in some like videos and clips and stuff and have
more of a reactionary episode with less like notes of me.
But I do to put you on the spot real
quick before close to distract from my boy terrible indic.
What did you believe at the beginning of this show
concerning soul sleep and what do you believe now? And
it's fine if you don't believe me. I think no,

(02:21:37):
I I think I was. I think I would have said, yeah,
I think that the soul sleeps, but I think that
it's like kind of like a blink, like I think
functionally for the person who's sleeping like that. I don't
actually believe that somebody is in heaven right now if
we're talking about time that way, which I don't even

(02:21:58):
think time works that way. I think the only thing
that has potentially changed about what I thought is that
that that hole under the altar, that that maybe that
the soul does experience a little bit more of that
awaiting and awareness, maybe some visions of heaven, maybe some

(02:22:19):
like come on God like it's not torment. It's still
I think you're still in the presence of God like
but it's not made perfect yet. Yeah it yes that
that And so when you when you say they're with Jesus, like, yes, yes,
they are with Jesus, but they're sleeping. Yeah. Yeah, so

(02:22:42):
I think I would say that, like I did believe
in soul sleep, but the idea is just further rounded
out for me. Okay, I will say as a teaser
for the next one whenever the next one is hopefully
it's like three months, so that you guys are so
I think we've established the Christians sleep. Mm hmmm. Do

(02:23:04):
non Christians when they die sleep? Do they rest at all?
Or are their spirits awaken active and angry? And see,
thank you guys forging talk. Have a great night's sleep,

(02:24:01):
Fay p One

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