Always Creating Value™ Podcast: "Breaking the Glass Ceiling" Panel Discussion

This podcast focuses on how 3 very talented and smart women began their careers decades ago and managed to break through the so-called “Glass Ceiling.”

Read Article https://estowemanagement.com/breaking-glass-ceiling/

Last year, we initiated and launched a podcast called Always Creating Value. One of our main focus points has always been the company and the people creating value.
And how can we create more value on a fairly consistent basis so that we can continue on and be better every day? In these podcasts, we’ve been able to tap into some very special people and talk to them about the kinds of things that they’ve done over their life that not only affected their business but also their personal life. And I’ve brought back three of the people who have been podcast participants, who are all within the business and corporate world in different ways. We want to reach back to the days of the late 70s and 80s when women were only beginning to really have a major impact on the business world. Before you found women in senior positions. Women were becoming increasingly involved and began to change the culture. And we would like to tap into the risks and the challenges that they’ve had. Let us learn from some of these really good experiences that can be applied to the challenges that we have today, the DEI issues, the more people coming into the workplace, wanting to grow and be part of it.

I’d like to introduce them: Ann Hofferberth, who comes from the public and corporate world. Lynn Kitchen comes from wealth management. And now she’s in the business of producing television episodes. She’s now started nationally, and now she’s going across the world. Devon Blaine is a public relations person focused on the area of business and politics. She also focuses on the business perspective from a crisis management platform where she’s been able to help companies with their PR as they go through some very dangerous times.

Ann Hofferberth:” What was very interesting in my time was there were ads on TV about women bringing home the bacon and frying it in the pan. That was the big commercial. And it said, we were supposed to be Wonder Woman, we’re supposed to do it all. And as I looked around in my corporate environment, I saw that that’s not what the men were doing. The men were finding people who were better equipped to do a job than they or better at doing a job they didn’t want to do and hiring them. And I quickly noticed that that might be what was holding some of my female counterparts back because when you try to do it all, you get exhausted and unproductive. So I took that learning and adapted the idea of delegation, finding the right people to do the right jobs, and then staying on top of them and overseeing that performance. And it also translated back into my home life because for me to be able to do what I was doing now that I had a husband and two children meant that I needed to delegate some of the home duties to my terrific husband. And I was smart enough to let him do it the way he wanted to do it, not impose my way of doing it, And that is what I learned. I learned to delegate”

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Read Article https://estowemanagement.com/breaking-glass-ceiling/

Episode Transcript

Unknown (00:15):
Good morning. I'm Mark Fowler, the President still
Management Corporation and CEOof revolutionary conversations,
which is a training,communications company and still
management company. SoManagement Corporation is a
business reengineering andconsulting firm for helping
companies go from where they areto where they need to be. Couple

(00:41):
last year, we initiated andlaunched a podcast called always
creating value. And in ourbusinesses, both businesses, one
of our main focus points hasalways been despite where the
company is, or where the peopleare focusing on where they're
creating value, and how can wecreate more value in particular,

(01:03):
on a fairly consistent basis sothat they can continue on and be
better every day. In thesepodcasts, we've been able to tap
into some very special peopleand be able to talk to them
about the kinds of things thatthey've done over their life
that not only affected theirtheir business, but also their

(01:25):
personal life. And I've broughtback three of the people who
have been podcasts,participants, and they're all
within the business and ourcorporate world, in different
ways. And with them, they're allwomen. And we want to reach back

(01:46):
to the days of the 70s and 80s,when women were only beginning
to really have a major impact onon the business world. You know,
before before the 70s, as suchit was, you didn't find women at
senior senior positions, and allof a sudden in the 70s and 80s.
And then as the 90s went on,they became more and more

(02:08):
involved and began to change theculture. And we would like to
tap into the risks and thechallenges that they've had to
deal with and the situationsthat they've had to deal with.
And get a contextualizationabout how some of this really
good experience can be appliedto the challenges that we have

(02:31):
today, the DEI issues, the morepeople coming into the
workplace, wanting to grow andbe part of it, and want to be
part of the business, not beproud of the business world in a
whole new way. And I'd like tointroduce them and offer birth,
and comes from the public andcorporate world. Lynn kitchen,

(02:55):
she comes from the wealthmanagement. And now she's in the
in the business of producingtelevision television episodes.
She's now started nationally,and now she's going across the
world. In Devon, Blaine, Devonis a public relations person
focused in the area of businessand the political. She also

(03:21):
focuses in the businessperspective from a crisis
management platform where she'sbeen able to help companies with
their PR as they go through somevery dangerous, very dangerous
times. Lynn, could you introduceyourself and tell us a little
bit about your area of valuecreation? And in particular, all

(03:44):
those years ago when you werestriking out, starting out,
striking out starting out?
Yes, thank you so much, Mark,it's a pleasure to be here with
you. And with all of yourguests. I'm excited because this
is a topic near and dear to myheart. The topic of diversity

(04:05):
for women is an ongoing growthissue. And it's so wonderful
that you are inviting those ofus who were at an earlier era,
you know, to just talk aboutsome of the experiences that we
had that were the underpinningsfor some of the growth that

(04:25):
we're seeing today. So I'mreally very excited to be here.
Thank you, Mark. I also wantedto acknowledge I loved being on
your podcast before which wasalways creating value. That's
one of the topics that you knowis if we can always create
value, not only in ourcorporations but in our personal

(04:47):
lives and in our everything thatwe believe in everything that we
hold dear, then I think thatwe're on the path to being
better humans. And in thatregard, let me just say that as
As I started out in business, inthe corporate world, I just was,
I jumped in with absolute, myeyes closed, and, you know,

(05:13):
holding my nose and just jumpinginto the end, part of the pool,
the deep end. And having let mejust give you a little
background that I was a productof the 1970s Vietnam era college
days in which the latter part ofmy college was a war. I mean,

(05:34):
yeah, war protests on campus,and a lot of disruption in
distressed unrest, not toodifferent than we have seen in
the last few years. Although,you know, it took it took a
different messaging. But thatwas a part of my value system
that, that I chose a differentpath at that time, I actually,

(06:00):
it made me become anentrepreneur, I was unhappy with
the way people were discountingand making the corporate
corporations be, you know, seemlike they're the bad guys. And I
thought, you know, wait aminute, we, we create value, we
create jobs. Let's go make somemoney together. Let's have some

(06:22):
fun. So I went out all over thecountry and, and sold, sold
things door to door, sold books,door to door, sold, programmed
school to school soldadvertising store to store and I
learned early on that I couldbecome self sufficient. And once
I did get through college, theone thing that I learned at that

(06:43):
point is that I still was broke,you know, as a broke student,
what do I do now. But I did haveone thing I learned how to sell,
I could stand on my feet andsell anything that I put my mind
to. So I went into the area ofmoney, money management, in
particular and in the stockmarket, and I wanted to not only

(07:06):
learn how to make money, but Iwanted to learn the language of
money. And I've said to myself,if I ever do make some money, I
want to learn how to manage itfor myself and my family. So
that was my values underpinningsright out of college, I just was
knocking on doors to see if Icould get a job as a

(07:29):
stockbroker. And interestinglyenough, it was a shock because
at that time, they were notallowed. Women were not allowed
to become a stockbroker, rightout of college unless you put in
at least 10 years of good hardwork as a secretary to a
stockbroker. So it was very,very unusual. And I just kept

(07:49):
knocking on doors all the waydown Wilshire Boulevard. And I
know Devin lives here in LosAngeles. So you know that
Wilshire Boulevard was a streetthat went from downtown Los
Angeles all the way to SantaMonica. And on that street, were
hundreds of stock brokerage.
Companies. Yes, like, you know,Merrill Lynch, and Dean Witter,

(08:11):
and all of the big ones, PaineWebber, and they had, you know,
ticker tape, places you couldjust walk in, and I did walk in
and knocked on the door. Andfortunately, I found one
gentleman, a manager who saidthat he would give me a shot,
that he would give me a chance,he would give me an opening,

(08:35):
because I obviously was sellingmyself so hard, heartily. And he
said it was because he had threedaughters of his own. And he
wanted some day for thecorporate world to give them a
break. So he was going to giveme a break. But he wanted me to
really understand that he wasputting his career on the line
by doing so. And that he had toput me on probation. And that

(08:58):
that meant that I had higherthreshold of sales that I had
to, you know, come up to, and Ithought, I'm great on man. Why
man? So my attitude was notlike, oh, how, how, how dare
they treat me that way? Youknow, which is different than
today. I wanted to make thepoint that we we are, wherever

(09:23):
we begin. Those are the valuesof the day. I do understand
today's values have shifted andchanged. But back then, I was so
excited just to get my foot inthe door. After the first four
years of working for a majorbrokerage firm Dean Witter

(09:43):
Reynolds. I was I had doneeverything that I could to excel
and I did Excel and I had anidea that I could actually
create my own brokerage firm.
And so I left the majors andbecame an independent broker

(10:06):
dealer, I was one of the firstwomen on the west coast to do
so. There were several, notmany, but a handful of women
owned broker dealerships, youknow, sprinkled around the
country, a few more in New YorkCity, of course, with Wall
Street being the financialcenter of America. But most

(10:29):
people said, You are crazy, youare crazy. If you don't have the
big corporations behind you, andall of their research staff, you
will fail. And I said, Well,let's see what happens. What am
I got to lose? You know, let'ssee what what comes of it. And
so, I was pleased to say thatmost of the men who are, were at

(10:56):
higher levels of, you know,authority, who could have, you
know, kept me small, or kept meout of possible, you know,
moving forward, they welcomed,they welcomed a woman moving
into that, that arena and myback, I just want to share that

(11:19):
my experience was that menopened the door, as well, during
the beginning years, and I wantthat I want the women of today
to really understand that. Soit's not an us versus them.
It's, we were welcomed. And wewere, I think well respected for

(11:40):
taking the responsibility tomaybe be the first. So it was,
it's been great. I'm an advocateof, of always being better, not
bitter.
You know, I have a sense thatand today a little bit of that
bitterness, kind of filtersthrough what's going what's

(12:03):
going on. But we haven't wehaven't exceeded enough that we
haven't been actually gettingbetter. I mean, there's an I
don't know how to relate tothat. I just, you know, the
things I hear about thechallenges that women and other
other cultures have in dealingwith this. I think a bit of
bitterness exist, maybe becausethey don't understand how much

(12:28):
how much has been accomplished.
What do you think?
Well, I think, Oh, thank you forthat question. It's important to
really understand the history ofwhat has been accomplished. My
goodness, looking back now Isucceeded. 34 years, it was a 34
year career in the investmentmanagement and I went on from

(12:50):
having my own broker dealer tostarting another investment
advisor after that's a fullcareer of in what they what they
determine is a male dominatedindustry, many of which have,
you know, women have nowsucceeded tremendously. But
there was an era in which we hadto make sure that we could prove

(13:13):
our value prove and and bring tothe table something of of
credible, a value that wouldadd, contribute to the, you
know, to the ongoing benefit ofthe, of the industry that we
were representing, and why not?
So I think that you're right, weit's important for young women
today to really understand thehistory and what happened before

(13:35):
them and because that brings alevel of appreciation to
everyone involved.
You know, let's go back a littlebit to the area of selling
encyclopedias, I mean, maybethat's not what you sold. But,
you know, back to the being onthe street, so to speak, and

(13:59):
trying to figure out what youcould sell and how you could
sell. What gave you thegumption, the hotspot to do
this?
Well, I think I was maybe uniquein that. Well, first of all, I
was broke. That's a good youknow, starving college students,
even though that my my parents,they just happened to be at a

(14:23):
time of their life that theycouldn't put me through college.
So I decided to put myselfthrough. And so I needed I
needed some extra income. And itwas an opportunity for me to get
away from my hometown, littlelittle hometown and and see the
world. So knocking on doors waswas exciting to me. It wasn't

(14:46):
exactly encyclopedias, but itwas Webster's dictionaries. It's
pretty close.
Well, thank you very much. We'llbe coming back and talking with
all three of you. But thank you,Lynn, and Anna Hofferberth
You've been the president ofseveral, several public
companies, what can we? What canwe learn from you about the

(15:10):
corporate world here, we'velearned about the wealth
management one.
Thank you, Mark. And I'm reallyexcited about being on this with
these outstanding women andsharing what we've learned with
those who listen. But I don'tknow if I ever really told you
mark that I actually started mycareer when I was five. My
business career when I was fiveyears old, I was working in my

(15:32):
mother and father's restaurant,and I would give change to
people, this little tiny handswho would come up with their
quarter, I was the daughter oftwo people that came to the
United States from Ireland. Andso working and education as, as
in many first generationfamilies was very important. So

(15:53):
when I finished my collegecareer I embarked on into the
corporate business world, and Istarted with Casual Corner. And
when I was looking about it wasat that time that that Lynne was
referencing when women weresuddenly moving out into, into
the business world, and I sawsomething that I thought could

(16:14):
be an interesting concept. And Ideveloped what was called the
wardrobe. And I, I put togethertwo suits, five tops, one
bottom, those pieces couldbecome a 30 day wardrobe. And I
traveled around New England,much like Lynn, and taught other
stores, how to sell this conceptto women and merging into a

(16:37):
professional life. Believe it ornot, at that time, we weren't
even ready to know how to dressfor the job we wanted, let alone
getting that job, and ended upcatapulting that career. And I
grew up through the ranks atCasual Corner. And at the end, I
decided I would move out ofretailing into manufacturing.

(16:57):
And I joined Vanity FairCorporation, and I was the first
president of a division forVanity Fair, and that had its
unique interests. And fromthere, I went on to become the
president of retail forHallmark. And that was my
corporate environment. And FTD,where I was present in the

(17:19):
marketplace with the 20,000florists, kind of merged
entrepreneurs, and corporatetogether, is working directly
with the entrepreneurs who arerunning and helping them run
their businesses as well as byproduct. But what was very
interesting in my time, therewere ads on TV about woman

(17:42):
bringing home the bacon andfrying it in the pan. That was
the big commercial. And it said,we were supposed to be Wonder
Woman, we're supposed to do itall. We're supposed to go out
there, earn the bacon, and thenfry it up in the pill. And as I
looked around in my corporateenvironment, I saw that that's
not what the men were doing. Themen weren't trying to do at all

(18:05):
the men, were finding people whowere wet, better equipped to do
a job than they are possiblybetter at doing a job they
didn't want to do, and hiringthem. They weren't this, do it
all concept. And I quicklynoticed that that that might be
what was holding some of myfemale counterparts back,

(18:26):
because when you try to do itall you get exhausted. So I took
that learning, and adapted theidea of delegation, and finding
the right people to do the rightjobs, and then staying on top of
them and overseeing thatperformance and, and making sure
that they knew what the goalwas, and that we would get
there. And it also translatedback into my home life. Because

(18:51):
for me to be able to do what Iwas doing now that I had a
husband and two children, meantthat I needed to delegate some
of that to and my terrifichusband was willing to take on
the role of being a very early,what's called stay at home dad.
And not many guys were doing it.
But he was an early adapter. Andhe did it. And I was smart

(19:12):
enough to let him do it the wayhe wanted to do it not impose my
way of doing it, and just wearthe pink underwear. Eventually
he was going to figure out howto do the laundry and separate
the colors. And he did and nowhe does laundry better than i
But not only did I delegate itwork, I delegated at home. And I

(19:33):
even took it a little stepfurther Mark I have two sons.
And I convince them that whenthey got to be a double digit
person, they were allowed tohave a double digit bike that
was a big thing to have a 10speed bike and their own laundry
baskets. They couldn't wait. Andthat is what I learned. I

(19:56):
learned to delegateCan we go back to the to the,
the restaurant? I mean, Iimagine you grew quite a bit
from the five year old andmaking change. But what what
kind of skills did you pick upin that? I guess the restaurant
is still around, isn't it? It'sabout 90 years old or something.

(20:22):
Yes, my mother, my dad passedwhen I was three. And I was the
youngest of five. So now mymother from Ireland had to take
over and make this work. And shereally took it to the next
level. And we all knew what itwas to work, we knew what it was

(20:44):
to take care of ourselves. Andwe knew what it was to support
the person who was working. Sowe became a very close unit. But
I learned like, honestly, marketat five and six, Mark was a cash
business, it was a hotdog stand,and the money would come mom
would give it to me. And onSunday morning, we'd sit on the

(21:04):
floor with all the 20s in the10s and fives and count out the
money and put it in the rightwrappers and take it to the
bank. And 567 all the way untilI went on to college, that was
my job to take care of theaccounting. But I nothing made
me proud or I was like the puppyat Starbucks that gets the puppy

(21:27):
cappuccino, when we go to thebank, and they count the money.
And there were no errors. I wasthrilled that just made my day.
So I had to learn how to copewith not having a mom who was
going to get up and get medressed in the morning, because
she'd worked late. And alsounderstand that she needed help

(21:47):
in her enterprise as much as Ineeded to remind.
Just one more question, andwe'll move to Devon, but I
listened to both and listen toboth you and Lynn. And there's
in both of you, there is thisability to grab a hold of the

(22:09):
situation and move it forwardknowing that you're going to
succeed. I mean, even though youmight have doubts. It doesn't
stop you. And I mean, where doesthat come from? I mean, is it
because you had a great, youknow, family life, even though

(22:30):
you had lost your dad, but thebusiness also, you know, was a
big part of that you met lots ofpeople and you were you were
probably adorable. And andeverybody everybody who came
there, you know, cared aboutyou. So But where did you get
that? That that drive? It wasjust watching your mom or what
is because a lot of people don'thave jobs nowadays, when they go

(22:53):
to college, they, you know, Imean, I was so glad that I
started working in 15. Becausewhen you know, I worked all the
way through college. And when Iwent to get a job, I knew I was
on my way to be a CPA andmeeting clients, I'd already met
so many customers in life. Iknow how to talk to somebody.
But a lot of people don't knowhow to talk to people.

(23:14):
No, I think you've hit the nosethat right on the head. It was
definitely my mom, my watchingmy mother at the worst moment.
Gather herself and her fivechildren and motor forward. What
was number one a very goodexample. If I can tell you a
little story about the trainingthat I got, I can remember at 14

(23:38):
an 18 year old asked me on adate. And I was the youngest of
the five. So I went to my motherand I asked her if I could go on
this date. And she said sure.
And I thought oh, wow. She'sgetting easy with the youngest
one. She was much stricter. It'sa great. So it was about an hour
later, Mark. She came to me andshe said, I want to ask you a

(24:00):
question in this country. And Iknew I was in trouble when that
came up. Don't you have to be 16to drive a car? And I said yes.
And she said so. You want togive up all your control all
your independence while you'rethere and get into a car that

(24:20):
you can't take over yourself andrun yourself and have to go on
this day. She never said no. Shejust said, you really you're
gonna give up all your power andnot be so I didn't go on the
day. But boy did I learned alesson and when someone asked me

(24:40):
why didn't go on the date, myanswer was Why would I get in
the car I couldn't draw. And soshe gave me out of it. She got
me out of it and gave me an out.
So that was she really was anincredible mentor. And I earned
money I learned early how niceit was was to have my own money.

(25:03):
And as a grown woman when I waslooking for, I never wanted to
marry, I never needed to marry,I wasn't really looking for a
partner because I wasn't lookingfor someone to complete me. But
when I found done, I reallyfound a partner. And I think
that makes a big difference inwomen, do they, they're looking

(25:23):
for someone to take care ofthem. I want to take care of
myself, and then look forsomeone who wanted to share that
with me. And that all I thinkcame from my mom, my four
brothers and sisters and havejust a good outlook on the best
way to get through it is tomotor on.
Keep going. Well, let's, let'smove around a little bit. Let's,

(25:46):
let's bring on Devon who I thinkshe's mentioned in our previous
podcast that she's, she's notrisk adverse. He doesn't mind
jumping right in there and, andshaking things up. Probably all
the time. Devin, a little bitabout you. And you're you're

(26:07):
creating value.
Thank you, it's a pleasure to beback with you. And such a joy to
share this time with Leon andwith AMP. I did many, many years
ago, take a test on riskadversity. And it was an

(26:32):
entrepreneur's test. And I'vesadly never had the benefit of
any of the corporate backgroundthat both Linda net and have
had. And sometimes I wish I had,because I would have learned a
lot from that. But that testtold me that I was absolutely

(26:55):
zero risk adverse that I wouldrisk 100% of everything to go
after what I believed, andsadly, have a few of the
important men in my life realizethat too, and made their exit
because of it. But it's alwaysworked for me. Yes, I've I've

(27:20):
had some terrible failures. Butno one who's succeeded hasn't
had failure. And it's also whyI've accomplished some of the
things I've accomplished. SoI'm, I'm a great believer in not
being fearful of not knowing theoutcome. Could we

(27:45):
talking about, you're alwaysreaching out public relations,
almost every day is a differentsituation with the same client.
It's a very dynamic. You justnever know what they're what
they're going to do tomorrowthat you have, you know, of
course, correct on the next day.
Can you give us some highlightsabout what you do?

(28:06):
We ask a lot. And we do know alot of what of my all time
favorite clients was the head ofa nonprofit organization. And of
course, was always asking forcorporate donations. And his
favorite saying was, it's notlike I haven't heard no before.

(28:29):
And that's our job. When itcomes to the press. We probably
ask several 100 People in thepress on a daily basis, about
covering their clients. If wehear yes, once or twice a day,

(28:52):
it's a fabulous day.
Kinda like back to Lynn when shewas selling her Webster's
dictionaries,or going up and down Wilshire
Boulevard asking to join abrokerage. And yes, you're gonna
hear no, a whole lot. And sowhat? It's the yeses that count.

(29:15):
And sometimes the yeses comefrom people that make more of a
difference to the client withthat coverage.
Sometimes I would imagine thatthere are situations where you
don't want to Yes, you don'tknow. You don't know what you

(29:36):
don't know.
We situation in some crisismark, and you spoke about crisis
worker a moment ago. Yes, thereare times when we absolutely
don't want press coverage. AndI've had a major now national

(30:00):
network call and say, unless youcan provide us with a
spokesperson from the company,we're not going to cover this.
And I would say, I am so sorry.
We just don't have anyoneavailable. And behind the
scenes, I'm saying, yes, that'sexactly what I want. And I

(30:21):
always take those callspersonally, because my team is
so accustomed to pushing to getYes, it's kind of a major jump
shift for them to be able toaccept the note.

(30:41):
Now, you've had your ownchallenges coming up in the
business world, I mean, youdidn't have to navigate a
corporate organization ornavigate, you know, the
Securities Exchange dynamics andthings that go on that, you
know, there's regulations. Notthat you don't have to mind your

(31:03):
P's and Q's. But you came up ina different way. You you kind of
learned along the way. Some ofit by yourself, right.
I did learn along the way.
Because I started a publicrelations agency, having never
worked for an agency. I hadworked with a lot of PR people,

(31:28):
a lot of VPs of corporatecommunications, a lot of
advertising managers. A lot ofCFOs, because I I started as an
actress and a model. I workedevery trade show known to
mankind, you name the industry,I did a trade show. So I came to

(31:52):
the agency world with justenough knowledge of every
industry, except for the brandnew ones. To get myself in
trouble in a meeting. I couldtalk a few buzzwords I knew a
little bit. Maybe an hour,probably not. But I could talk
the game and trade shows. Youknow, I get so bored. Because I

(32:20):
was the cute young girl in thebooth. Wearing hot pants or a
miniskirt. Mormons by keels orknee high boots. How about a bag
today, sir. And that would getreal boring. So every break

(32:41):
lunch, coffee, I made it a pointto walk around the conference,
see what was new in thatindustry. Talk to people learn
everything I could possiblylearn. And it also ensured I got
hired the next time.

(33:05):
Because you were able to reachout, it was, again, there's that
no worry about risk that you'regoing to meet a friend, you're
going to do something you don'thave any you don't have any
second thoughts about the factthat this isn't going to work.
You know that when you took thatwalk around the the auditorium,
you're going to meet somebody,right?

(33:28):
I was going to learn somethinginteresting, I would meet
somebody, I would also probablyhave coffee or lunch with the
person who hired me ensuringthat they made a big verbal
note. And next time they had aconference, they call me. And it
worked for me for years. And Istill use things that I learned

(33:54):
back then, because I was workingfor people, by people who do
what I do today. So a lot of mygood ideas come from that. They
come from being a news junkie.
They come from knowing how tospin things to get the interest
of the people on the other sideof the news desk.

(34:19):
When you say spent what whatsometimes people could think
that is you know comes from anegative but what you're doing
is you're framing it differentways. Now what you're basically
doing, you're really making itrelatable, relatable.
It's one reason why wefrequently use a certain month

(34:43):
is Native American HeritageMonth or National Alzheimer's
Awareness Month, or BreastCancer Awareness Month. Those
all allow us to share stories Inthat context, that make it

(35:03):
interesting for the press someand sometimes it's a real
stretch. I heard one on the newsthis morning that I thought
really is somewhat chicken, thatpart. So it's, it's always fine
to really, really stretch inyour pitch. I've had talk show

(35:24):
hosts say, Boy, that's really astretch Devon, but yeah, I'll
book.
So they trust you. They trustyou?
Yes, because they know that ourclients are going to be good
spokespeople.
So you've, you've helped thepress learn how to take risks.
I never thought about it thatway. But that's a great way to

(35:46):
put it.
Yeah, you're helping, you'rehelping them a lot. You're
consulting with them thatthey're willing to take risks
with you that they may not takewhat somebody else interest. And
you know a little bit abouttoday. I mean, I know that, that
you're really part of the theworld today because everything
of everything you're doing,you're involved in the news, all

(36:07):
the news and media, operationsand newspapers, and you're right
on top of you're right on top ofthings. Anything that you can
tap into the would give theyounger generation a little bit
of a, a little bit of a help alittle bit of assistance, that,

(36:30):
that you're giving, in many waysyou're giving the the news guys,
the news, people to take a riskand how to manage that risk and
realize that yeah, you're gonnafall down every once in a while.
I mean, what, what kind ofwisdom would you impart? Because
you seem to, it seems to flowoff of you very, very easily.

(36:50):
You're very kind Mark, thankyou. I think sometimes, today,
people are so adamant abouttheir point of view, that they
lose their sense of humor. And Iwould suggest that it's

(37:13):
important to maintain that senseof humor, and to use it. And
sometimes it's better to usethat humor in a situation than
it is to be harsh orargumentative. I'm thinking back

(37:35):
to when I served on thegovernor's Small Business
Advisory Council, and it wasapparent to me that I was the
token woman. And a small subsetof the council met five of us in
Sacramento one day, flew upthere early in the morning, went

(37:57):
to the meeting. And as themeeting started, one of the men
turned to me and said, Devin,why don't you take the notes?
And I immediately stood up witha big smile and said, Oh, why
don't you take the notes? I'llget the coffee. How do you drink
yours? What's he going to do? Ididn't take the note.

(38:25):
Well, it was in those days, oneof those was your job. Right? So
you took the better one. SoSo I chose the one I wanted.
That's a that is a really goodstory. You know, then you've
been listening to Ann and Devinand talk about, you know, some
of their advice for the youngergeneration. And I didn't really

(38:46):
pick that up with you as much asI would have liked. And so you
know, you're out there with yourmom, you're doing a podcast with
your mom, you're out there,doing some amazing things in the
inspirational world. You know,can you tap into some of that,
that that would also tap intoyour history? That would be good

(39:08):
for some of the younger peoplein the world today?
Well, thank you. You know, Iwould like to say what you were
referring to a podcast with mymother, she's 99 and a half. She
has a wisdom words of wisdomthat she likes to give out. And
when you take a look atsomeone's life span of almost

(39:28):
100 years a century I think it'sreally good for women in general
to look back and and as youmentioned before, learn who has
come before them and whatthey've gone through. Because
it's you know, life is abuilding process. It's an
evolution as they say, asopposed to this is my way or the

(39:49):
highway. And I do believe thatin in what what did
stood well for me Throughout theyears of working in the
corporate life with mostly men,I, I believe that I had a larger

(40:10):
vision of what we were alltrying to do together to achieve
this value as you like to put amark, what are we creating
together? What value can webring for, you know, my paycheck
to, for my family, for yourfamily, for your paycheck, and a

(40:32):
team, a company, a corporation,you know, a family, a city, a
nation, a world to work togetherwith a higher understanding that
we are creating value togethertakes a sense of history, it
takes a sense of belonging. Andit's not just, you know, a, your

(40:54):
own slice of the pie at this inthis particular moment, thinking
that you're, I love what yousaid, Devon, people's point of
view, seems to be all or nothingnow. And I would, I would say,
just growing up in, let's justgrow up a little bit. And, and

(41:16):
have, like you said, have somefun, bring some sense of humor,
but also that historicalperspective, that, Oh, my
goodness, my mother can canbring some stories back in when
she first was divorced. And as aas a young, early, you know,
with two children and could nothave her own bank account could

(41:38):
not have, she did not was unableto sit on the jury as a woman,
you know, so we have reallyprogressed as women and the
history of our progression needsto be needs to be honored. And
here we are, there's a lot moreto do more value to create, not

(41:59):
just for women, but for all ofthe in the diversity idea, the
DEA that we're that's so populartoday, that point of view, I
really think that we have somuch more, to learn from each
other, and really, truly worktogether for to create greater
value.

(42:20):
Let's go back to your mom andthe podcast. What have you
learned from her? I know thatyou get you're getting a depth
of of information. We're talkingabout your generation, and now
some of the the presentgeneration. And you're looking
back to her generation. What aresome of the things just a couple

(42:41):
of things that that hit you? Iknow that the fact that she
couldn't go to the jury and shecouldn't, you know, have a
checking account? And I don'tknow how anybody thought that
was right. But what have youWhat have you learned from that?
What I've learned is that hergeneration having gone through

(43:01):
the Depression, World War Two,quite a few of our current
generation don't even have asense of what they were fighting
for. The freedom of speech andall that we really hold dear as
Americans are something that mythat my mother holds dear. And

(43:22):
right now what she is holdingdear is how can she age
gracefully. And she has onepiece of wisdom that I really
love to share with everyone. Andshe says let us let us all be
kind to each other and create asofter joy, as we can age

(43:43):
gracefully with a softer joy.
Oh, wow. Sort of like Devon'shumor, you know, being being
real and having a level oflevity at the same time. You
know, it's similar. It's not thesame, but it's,
it's similar. And what I whatI'm taking from that is that,
you know, instead of lookingback at some of the horrors that

(44:05):
did happen in a frame of 100years, let's have a softer joy
and work together.
It's important to not just workin the business, but you have to
take time away from that andwork on the business. If you're

(44:28):
not planning for the future atwhere you're headed, you're
never going to get there. And Ithink that's the key ingredient.
Is that part of your ability torisk in other words, instead of
scrambling every day to geteverything out the door? You

(44:48):
take the time to delegate toyourself, the kinds of strategic
and visionary things that youneed to do.
Not necessarily every day ate,but definitely many days. Yes.
And just time to think, and whatwhat is happening in in the

(45:10):
world? And how is that going toimpact our business, our
clients, and where we're headedis all irrelevant. And if you
don't know how you're gettingfrom A to B, or how each of your
clients needs to be doing that,you're not going to be really

(45:32):
helpful to them.
Always say, we have to be atleast one, a half a step ahead
of our clients, if we're too farahead of our clients where we
lose them, but if we're, maybein our mind, we would be but
that's,that's, at least in our mind,
not necessarily expressed. But Iwant to go back to something

(45:56):
that you and Agnes and Idiscussed over dinner is a
thing. In business too often.
The ability to have a sense ofhumor, and to be gentle, is

(46:19):
often lost. And it's sonecessary, and especially today.
And I know, I shared a storywith you back from think it was
the early 80s When I was servingon a state appointed government

(46:39):
type board. And apparently, Iwas the token woman, I had no
problem with that designation.
And I ended up on the executivecommittee. So when five of us
met up in Sacramento one day,one of the guys turned to me and
said, Oh, Devin, why don't youtake the notes? I just laughed

(47:01):
and smiled and stood up andsaid, Oh, what did you take the
notes? I'll get the coffee, whatwhat would you like in years?
Who could object to the womanserving. And for me, that was
far better than being the onehand you did it with a smile.

(47:28):
Absolutely a smile and a laughand zero anger.
So, so going back to the humor,so for you, that was a humorous
way to create a collaborativeenvironment between the two of
you. And he was satisfied andyou were satisfied.

(47:51):
I don't know that he was sosatisfied, but I was.
That probably is true. But maybehe was a better note taker. One
of the things that comes to mymind listening to you, Devin, is
that and I think I heard it fromboth Dan and Lynn too, but it

(48:11):
jumped out at me and that isthat. You're okay, moving
forward, achieving in steps, youyou, you know, something happens
in you. And maybe there was alittle bit of a challenge, but
you got from where you were to,to the next step, not to the
three steps down the path thatyou might want. But your your I

(48:36):
think the word was satisfied. Idon't remember how you said it.
But you know, be satisfied, whatwould you have been able to
accomplish? And I know thatLynne has something to talk
about that. But could youelaborate on that? Or am I just
wishful wishful listening orwishful thinking or whatever.

(48:56):
What I'm hearing is forwardprogress. And forward, progress
is still progress. Even ifyou're not all the way there.
And when you get there, odds areyou're going to go further. Just
stay the courseand be satisfied with it. I

(49:16):
mean, not say, Oh, I wish I'dgotten this or whatever, you
know,not necessarily satisfied. But
be kind to yourself, complimentyourself, maybe even celebrate
that partial victory victory onthe way to a larger one. Lynn
did a whole bunch of that.

(49:42):
When What about you, can you tapinto that?
I would like to tap into thatbecause, you know, as a student
of charting in the in the stockmarket, one of the most
instructive things to me is tolook back in history and look at
the two rents you know, and as Ijust love to look at it on a

(50:02):
piece of paper and all theselittle marks did that show the
different trends on a chart?
Well, we can look backemotionally, at the culture as
it relates to women and and ourrole in corporate life. And we
can see such amazing leapsforward leaps forward. Yes,

(50:26):
there's been some pull backs.
Yes, there's been some, someretrenchments, some
disappointments. But we're notlet that just keep us, we are in
a forward evolution of mankind.
That is, as you said, Mark, benttoward a creative process of

(50:50):
making things better. So we arewhere we are on, you know, right
where we are. along that path, Ican point back to, as Ann
mentioned, her mother, ourparents, our mothers were really
homemakers that was their role.

(51:11):
So I think the three of us wereprobably the first generation of
really having an opportunityhanded to us where we could be
the first generation of, ofwomen to rise into the corporate
structure. And now, people, manywomen get upset that there's not
more people in the boardroom, orin C suite, that would represent

(51:38):
in the same denomination, as inthe in your staff. And so as if
we all have to be representedperfectly, but we're on our way.
So we're moving in the positivedirection. So situation and
situation, as it relates today,I think we're, we've made huge

(51:59):
progress, does that mean that weall have to stomp our feet and
demand what we want, when wewant as we want and be treated?
You know, exactly. With respect?
Well, it's happening. And Ithink that there's a lot of
people who feel they need tohave a very, very strong and
loud megaphone to make to makeother people. Change. That may

(52:23):
be true. It's not my style. ButI do understand that, whatever
it takes, sometimes it mighttake a few, you know, blow ups
now and then. But that's, again,all in the process of an a
longer evolution. So as we lookforward into the future of what

(52:45):
what could be for women in theworkplace, I really, I see
nothing but a greater futureahead. There's definitely going
to be a time in the future whenwomen probably will be the
majority in the C suite, morepower to us at that point. But

(53:06):
right here, right where we areright now, it you know, even
though it might feel painful,there is a ripple effect that's
happening, that's going to be ofa beneficial interest for all of
us.
So one of the things, you know,for the future, a tool is

(53:26):
appreciating, you know, not onlywhat an individual has
accomplished, but look back atwhat women have done in 50
years, you know,what women has done, and
corporations have allowed that.
I mean, where else but Americahave we had the opportunity to
as a Western woman, to createsuch wealth, not only for

(53:51):
ourselves, but for corporations.
We were at the vanguard, we'renot only creators of wealth, we
are consumers of wealthy women.
And so we have a larger andlarger role to play and
responsibility comes with thatrole, as well as future vision
of what what is it the worldthat we want to leave for our

(54:13):
children or in our children'schildren? I certainly don't want
a continuous world. I want onewhere everyone has an equal
opportunity and yet, you know,we have an appreciation of the
fact that we we have the freedomto do so.
No, thank you. Well, you know,it was I don't know where I why

(54:39):
I didn't really ever know thistill about 20 years ago. But you
know, women at some point intime, couldn't couldn't have a
checkbook. You know, they had tohave their husband sign or their
father, whatever and father hadto manage the money or the
husband had to manage and managethe money and that's, you know,
and today everybody's got fivecredit cards. So it's quite a

(55:01):
bit of a, it's quite a bit of ashift. That's
great. A great analogy of it wasmy mother, she couldn't get her
own checking account. When shegot divorced. She had to have
her father signed for hercouldn't, you know, women could
not hold a seat in thecourthouse? And if you couldn't
be a part of the what's itcalled the panel that your jury

(55:24):
Thank you, you couldn't have aseat in the jury. You know, that
wasn't as in the 50s, late50s 60s came on board. In my
industry, I'll never forgetMuriel Siebert, who was the
first woman to get a to own aseat on the New York Stock
Exchange. And at the time, Ithink it was like 1967, she was
one of 1300 men. Up till then nowomen. And you know, that was

(55:52):
the beginning, there arebreakthroughs everywhere. And
even today, we have newbreakthroughs. So I love to
honor those breakthroughs, notfor in any sense of oh, how
awful it must have been then,but rather, how far we've how
far we've come in a very shortperiod of time. You know, that's

(56:14):
just, that's, that's a half ofthe lifetime, at least for me to
see that. And I still have lifeahead of me. And we'll see lots
of great changes in the futurefor women.
Well, diversity and equity andinclusion are, you know, they're
the today there's that. That'sthe That's the challenge as it

(56:35):
relates to back to the women andthe women of cloud quite a path
for that I can imagine. And, youknow, you probably know more
about, you know, how we mightlook at some of the tools that
the people of today could use? Imean, we've asked, we've, you

(56:57):
know, we've talked to Devin andyour your comments about
delegation, and my comment aboutlooking around as to who's
successful and learn from them.
Is there something else that wecould add, you know, when says
the future, what's gonna get usto that future that Lynne
obviously has a great visionfor. So

(57:20):
one of the things that has madea big, big difference for women
has also been something calledTitle Nine, where every school
had to have sports for women aswell. And, and had to have the
same equipment and, and sports,believe it or not, are a

(57:43):
wonderful vehicle to learn howto be effective in a team. So
team building is the thing thatI think is going to carry people
forward. Because what youmentioned, Mark was looking at
someone doing something well,and, and too often, people look

(58:04):
around and say, Well, why am Inot being chosen? Why is it not
me? And instead, why don't yousay, why was why were they? What
did they do? What can I learnfrom what they did apply it to
what I do? So don't I think I'vesaid it to you to mark before,

(58:25):
don't look at the hole, look atthe doughnut. If you look at the
hole, the hole gets bigger. Ifyou look at the doughnut, the
doughnut gets bigger. So look atthe donut and see what they're
doing. Right? That got them thatwhen Lynn and I were talking, I
told her how back in mycorporate world, I suddenly was
playing racquetball. I washunting, I was doing all these

(58:51):
sports, because I was the onlywoman at the sea level. And
that's what the guys did afterwork. And if I didn't learn how
to play golf, and racquet ball,then I wasn't going to be a part
of that social network thatended up translating to the work
network. There were littlethings that happened in that

(59:12):
environment that were importantto the corporate. So I got my
rifle and I went out hunting. Iand I didn't do badly, by the
way, but it's you can't overlookthe team elements of these
things and building not justlooking at your own career as an

(59:38):
individual, but how can you useyour career to help other women
to build your team and theirteam help the company succeed?
So taking forward a more to awhole process instead of an
individual process? Look at thewhole instead of the donut. So

(59:59):
and I will say one little storyI noticed about racquetball, by
the way, when I played withwomen, we would play the first
set, and then we would stop andtalk. And you lose your
momentum. And you kind of yourmuscles start to cool off again,
when you play with a man, youplay the three sets until you

(01:00:20):
figure out who wins, and youtalk at the end of the game. So
we absolutely do thingsdifferently. And we absolutely
need to understand and recognizethat, but we can work very well
on a tee.
Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.
I love that team thing. Andtoday, you know, that's where
diversity comes in. You know,you have a diverse team.

(01:00:49):
Lin Amin, Devon, blinking outhere. Second, Devon. Let's talk
a little bit about besides thechallenge that you had, that at
that political event, what aresome of the things that in your
earlier years that look like itlooked like they were gonna get

(01:01:14):
in your way, but didn't becauseof something you did? You know,
when you when we had dinner theother evening, you talked about,
you know, having been an actressfor a number of years, and
you're forget your agent, oryour business managers would be
working with you, and you tookthe opportunity to shift, you

(01:01:36):
know, shift from what you weredoing, and, and not be and not
be dismayed by that. You wereable to see, you can see it
emotionally that this was a doorthat was opening that that you
could never imagine, but thedoor was open. And you're I
guess it's that risk factor youhave or Oh, I also think that my

(01:01:59):
managers saw something. Apotential that I had not fully
realized. I had always thoughtthat when I was in high school,
in college, in journalism, Ithought, maybe one day, I'll be

(01:02:21):
a staff writer on a newspaper,or if I get really lucky, I
might be writer for a women'smagazine. And what my managers
saw was that I could representone of their clients and do the

(01:02:42):
PR and make them wildlysuccessful. That that's a whole
other story. I ended upresigning that account after
less than a month because I Ihad the experience after going
to be the next Steve mug. Thenext major motion pictures

(01:03:05):
start. He was supposed to starin a motorcycle movie. So I
arranged for him to present theawards at a motorcycle race at
ascot.
Let's wind up a little bit aboutabout what the what was
accomplished with thatmotorcycle. Example,

(01:03:26):
this major motion picture starwho hasn't been heard from
sounds, his managers and I spentthe entire day at the motocross
race. And just before the awardswere due to be presented, and I
had a TV station coming to coverhim making that presentation. He

(01:03:49):
decided he didn't feel well andhad to go home. And he left his
managers in either holding thebag and I thought, No. I am not
going to represent someone whoif he were on his knees and
throwing up maybe. But he wasfine. He just panicked. So, you

(01:04:15):
know, my attitude was you're anactor, fake it, get through the
presentation. And he went home.
And I was like, Oh, you'refired. Fired.
I always I'm with you, Devon.
I'm with the fake it till youmake or motor through. Get your
motor going and keep motoring onat the motorcade. So I'm with

(01:04:38):
you. 100%All right, that's good. You
know, and do you have a coupleof those awkward moments where?
You know, it's the it was sortof like the men and the women or
the men and one woman out Um,experience?

(01:05:02):
Yeah, I can remember, at VFCorp, there was this VF Corp
owns Vanity Fair Lee wranglerJansport. I mean, a ton of, of
brands, every one of which wasrun by man. But this one brand
Parmesan that was run by me. Andwe had this huge corporate

(01:05:27):
meeting, and everybody wasthere. And as I was walking to
get my appetizer, I heardsomebody say, Did one of the
guys bring his wife? I turnedaround and said, No, we didn't.

(01:05:49):
Know you were somebody to dealwith? That's for sure. So I'm
gonna ask Devin, and then andthen, and then and again, we've
had a very nice conversation.
And I think we've accomplished agreat deal as it relates to some
of the things that you guys haveachieved and the way you have

(01:06:12):
been able to achieve it thatcould add value to the current
world. So it is a little bit ofa summary. Devin, could you you
know, what would you tell? Whatwould you tell your younger
self, who happens to be today intoday's world? What are some
words of wisdom as it relates toall the new things that are

(01:06:34):
going on? The kinds of thingsthat are getting in the way of
everybody, not just women,nowadays, they're getting in the
way of, you know, everybody?
A lot of what I would say,probably a decade or two, being

(01:06:54):
strident doesn't help you. Itdoesn't help anybody. Be easy on
yourself and other people.
Maintain your sense of humor.
And nothing is worth gettingtotally irate over. There's

(01:07:17):
always another way to manage it.
And just be quiet enough andclever enough and resourceful
enough to find otheralternatives. There's always a
way.
There's always a way to be kinddoes it for instance,
Yes, that too.

(01:07:39):
When What about you telling, youknow, talking to younger self in
today's world?
Well, first I just want to sitThank you, Devin for that. That
was just so cool. And this, thishas been a great discussion. And
thank you to Anne and mark thisit has been so fun. You know, I,

(01:08:01):
I think that the spirit ofgratitude would be one tool,
that I would invite myself as ayounger person to hold on to the
fact that appreciation is anexpansive, heart, heart centered
place from which we can live ourlives over, you know, 10

(01:08:23):
decades, if we let if we last tobe 100. Will, we're going to
need appreciation and gratitudein all things. I appreciate
opportunities that I both hadand didn't have. They both
taught me lessons today that I'mthat I'm recognizing. So I would

(01:08:45):
say to my younger self. Payattention to opportunities,
evaluate them a little bit more.
And ask, find a mentor that canhelp you see in the future, find
what it is that you bring to thetable so to speak. In other
words, what value can I bring,such that every year that I

(01:09:08):
apply my craft, that I'm goingto create a future value that's
worth something to be proud oftoday. So I would advise young
people to really understandtheir value not only today, but

(01:09:30):
what they're going how valuablethey're going to be in the
future. To the corporationtoday, how valuable they're
going to be in the future totheir loved ones and families
for having done well. And howwhat value they can bring. hone
their skills and and create youknow bring that creative process

(01:09:58):
and believe in yourself thatanything is possible. Take Take,
take leaps. I mean, I took someextraordinary leaps looking
back, I could have been creamed,you know, easily, easily.
You know, having worked onlyfour years in a big firm and

(01:10:19):
going out on your own. That'squite a leap. That
was a huge leap. And it allworked out. So here's, here's
the big tool. What if it allworks out? What would you do
then?
Yeah. That's wonderful. Thankyou very much. And you,

(01:10:41):
I think that I would have lovedto have had both Devon and Lana
on any team. I had, it was be apleasure. And I think the only
thing I can add to what they'veso well said, is to enjoy it,
too. Just take a breath andenjoy the ride, enjoy what
you're doing. And when I used toteach the wardrobing, where I

(01:11:04):
said, dress for the job you wantnot for the one you have? Why
don't you work for the futurethat you want, not the one you
have. So the forward thinkingand the enjoyment of the the
journey. And what Devin wassaying is so right, you can work
hard, you don't have to work me.
And anytime anyone loses theirtemper, they lose the argument,

(01:11:27):
because no one can hear youanymore. So take all these
words, and enjoy yourself, yourfamily and enjoy the future that
you're building. Because it'sall there for you to grab. It is
the gold ring.
I was thinking about I hadforgotten about revolutionary

(01:11:49):
conversations. But much of whatyou guys were talking about
really do represent what RobCohn talks about revolutionary
conversations and talks aboutstopping and helping yourself or
helping others and spending timeasking, you know, creating a,

(01:12:12):
you know, a conversation withpeople together a collaborative
thing. And everything that youguys talked about, like, if
somebody's successful, you gotto spend some time with them,
you know, you have to have thatconversation, you can't just run
up to them and say, you know,what makes you so good? You
know, that's not gonna, that'snot gonna be polite, or, you

(01:12:32):
know, work particularly well.
And, you know, Devin was talkingabout taking risks and other
words, be able to take a riskand say, Well, what can I do to
help? You know, what can I do?
What, you know, we've talkedabout stuff, but you know,
asking your boss, askingsomebody you work with, you
know, what can I do? To? Can wedo together? What can we can?

(01:12:56):
How can I help you so wonderful.
I actually have about 40 Otherquestions for you all, but you
know, I want to keep you morethan an hour and out. So. I'm
gonna go, I'm gonna ask James inall of you, Devin and Lynn,
experienced the podcast before.

(01:13:20):
And I always ask James, to, toweigh in, both with questions,
as well as you know, his ownopinions or his own perceptions.
Thanks, Mark. And I'm honored tobe given the opportunity
considering everybody who's heretoday, the thing that really

(01:13:45):
struck me throughout this entireconversation is how fundamental
a lot of the ideas that werepresented often were presented
as being historical, or givensome historical context in terms
of how far you know women havecome or, you know, how more
diverse the opportunities arefor people. But what really

(01:14:05):
stuck out for me is that a lotof these things are so
fundamental that they workreally, just as well today. They
did, you know, when these thingswere more of a more
revolutionary, you know, theshare tools and some of the
fundamental communicationtechniques that and Lynn and

(01:14:29):
Devon have talked about, seemuniversal to me, like there's
just never, and it reminded meof something my dad said because
he was, uh, you know, he spent alot of extra money and time
putting himself into HarvardBusiness School, he said that
the Marines kind of taught himeverything he got out of
Harvard. So, um, you know, showup earlier, you're late, that

(01:14:52):
kind of stuff, you know, theghosts core things and I guess
my question would be, hasanything changed since you know
is This pandemic any differentthan the last, the last 100
years ago or, you know, hasstuff that's happening today,
internet pandemic, globalwarming, you know, resource, you
know, management ormismanagement, whatever, as

(01:15:14):
anything, changed any of thosefundamental. Obviously, you
know, the greater inclusion. Butit's just greater inclusion, it
seems like in these paradigms,but the paradigms themselves are
the same, you know, the modelsare the same. Do you guys see
any big changes that, that makeany of the things you guys have

(01:15:35):
talked about obsolete today ormoving forward? But so
full Stein, I'm going to ask onesince I've started with her
before. Well,thank you, James. That's such a
wonderful, sweepingphilosophical question. I mean,
I can, as a as a student ofeconomic history, I can say that

(01:15:57):
it's all different. And yet,it's all the same. History does
repeat itself. I think peopleare, are human. after all. We
have our foibles, we have ourdesires, we have our
aspirations. And we definitelyrepeat the same problems over
and over. Do we get better? I'mhoping I have, you know, I'm an

(01:16:19):
eternal optimist. So I believethat things are getting better.
And that, indeed, this thistime, this pandemic, this
crisis, sincerely, we are makingprogress. Now, even in this even
even though it may appear theappearance of things may be

(01:16:41):
worse. What if we're actuallygetting even more creative in a
problem solving problems may bebecoming bigger, certainly more
dire as it relates to resourcesand and the planet. But I do
believe that the human spirit isinvincible, and that we'll come

(01:17:05):
up with solutions. Thanks forthe question.
Thank you. I'm gonna jump toDevon.
I think the the old parable ofis much things change, they stay
the same, is really, reallyappropriate. The problems become

(01:17:29):
a little bit different, thesolutions become a little bit
different. But nothing really isthat much different. And Mark, I
just have to compliment youbringing together a group of
people that I would really liketo spend time with outside of

(01:17:50):
this podcast.
Well, thank you, thank you. Ienjoy I haven't seen in years
and I don't think I've ever metLynn. So I don't think we've
ever been in the same roomtogether. And so when we just a
sidebar, and you guys can cutthis out. But when we did the

(01:18:12):
first podcast, which was Devon'svery Agnes got so excited. My
wife gets so excited aboutDevin. I think it was the 15th.
And then Devon's birthday wasthe sixth eighth, and she was
determined that we get Devon totake her to dinner, and we
didn't happen. And it wasprobably didn't happen because
of me. But last this month, weall got together and

(01:18:39):
a year later.
You're later yeah. So Mary hasmade that happen. What's not
gonna let Devon escape one moretime. So anyway, but for the
same reason she really wanted tohang out with Devin. So I got I
got the opportunity to be withthem and whatever. Yeah. What
about you?

(01:19:00):
Yeah, good question, James. Mypivot. My point on this is that,
as the other women on thepodcast have said that things,
the tools remain the same, butthe names change. And then, so
it was affirmative action. Nowit's Dei. What I've seen with

(01:19:20):
the me to movement is that womenare now credible. And that's a
nice movement forward. Now wehave to make sure that that
pendulum doesn't swing too far,one way or the other. The one
big thing I take away is thattechnology did not give us more
time. We kept thinking, we'llget this technology, it'll free

(01:19:44):
us. I don't know about anyoneelse. But that has not changed.
I have not seen the technologygiving me more time but I'm
taking more time. That'schanged. So the tools there
Pretty basic, and they're prettygood for you. But they must be I
might just call it somethingdifferent that's me, I think

(01:20:13):
now, we've got Mark frozen.
Yeah. Well, that's interesting.
I'm recording now. Okay.
Because listen to all three ofyou, and James as well. And it
does, a lot of it does stay thesame. I think some of the

(01:20:34):
nuances do change a bit. I thinkthat we've grown a lot more
sophisticated. And I'm, I'mthinking that if we are going to
change, to save some save someof the things that we've got
precious on our world, is thatwe got to use that

(01:20:55):
sophistication in a way that'sit's more collaborative, and
more inclusive. You know, Iremember when my partner, a
partner, Gloria Axelrod, wasalive when we were teaching a
revolutionary conversation thatat clients and helping them
understand that everybodybelonged, and increase the

(01:21:17):
capability of the company,because they all began to
realize that they belongtogether. It didn't need to fire
this one it didn't the fire,that one, whatever, you just
need to talk to each other. AndI think we need to, if anything
changed our habit. In otherwords, these are very good tools
that you've all talked about.
But we need to apply them morethan we probably have done

(01:21:38):
before. And I think a lot ofthat has disappeared. I mean,
it's, you know, we all we allworked in college, right? I
would assume that all of usworked in college, and a lot of
people don't in today's world,they don't have a sick, they
don't have a job, they don'thave they've never experienced
talking to customers or clientsor serving tea or, you know,

(01:22:00):
they've they've not had to get apaycheck. And I think that
that's hard for them when theyall of a sudden sit at a desk
and haven't had to struggle likeWhen did but Linden struggles
she she took it in stride, youknow, she's out selling whatever

(01:22:20):
she could sell. And I don'tthink a bit of that. I don't
think that tool that experienceis missing a good. I don't know
how we get it. I don't know, weincluded into the into the
process. Any comments aboutthat, and then we'll, we'll
break.
It's interesting, what you'resaying, because I noticed with

(01:22:45):
that's customer service maybehas lost a little of its glow,
it appears that the customer isnot always right. And that
people are often trying to teachyou how to be a good customer
instead of making you a happycustomer. So I think with what
you're talking about, is fewerpeople having to work themselves

(01:23:10):
would have a greaterappreciation for the the
customer and the work ethic thatit takes to to serve the
customer. Well, and we all arecustomers. And so I think that
that could use alittle polishing.
I agree. Devin, you saidsomething?
No, I was just Amin a lot cuzand was right on target.

(01:23:38):
One, anything that you think of,I
would like to just add. Anyway,I love what you just said and
that we're all customers. Well,that is really quite an
interesting idea. But I want tounderscore what you just said
Mark about using the tools insuch a way that we're talking to

(01:24:01):
each other more. And that theart of conversation and even
dialogue and debate seems to beunder a lot of of us either
stress or maybe you know, disdisrepair at the moment in our
country, and those the divisionsthat arise I think can be solved

(01:24:23):
more easily by the revolutionaryconversations that you stand for
Mark. And that, you know, wehave to stand for something and
let us all you know mayberesolve to do a little better to
communicate with each other. Sothat resolution can come sooner
rather than later and open aspace open a greater space for

(01:24:47):
something new to happen.
Something better the creativeprocess. Yeah.
I appreciate what you're sayingabout the division and you know,
instead of conversation we havedebate and Are we have lines in
the sand, they're so easy tocreate the lines in the sand.
It's like, you know, James wassaying that these are all

(01:25:09):
fundamental. But if they can'tget to the table, these
fundamentals, talents can't getto the table because we're not
articulating or collaboratingwith the person across the table
with you. Those tools are insome ways, I would say
worthless, but they're onunapplied. unproductive. And so

(01:25:31):
anyway, thank you all. This isfun. So when are we going to
have an annual retreat someplacegood. Maybe in northern Florida.
Right.
All all show up in Nashvilleis going on here. So
you haven't Thank you very much.
Thanks for, you know, going outto dinner with us the other day.

(01:25:54):
I know Mary, Agnes is stilltalking about you. So.
Oh, dear.
And, Lynn, thanks again. You.
You know, you surprise me somuch with that. Your first when
you did the interview withBarbara Von Miller run
revolutionary conversations. Andyou're the only person to show

(01:26:15):
up on any of those interviewsand having read the book and
talk about the book, as you didin the beginning. You know,
you're wonderful, thank you.
Thank you, Mark. I so appreciateit. And thanks for everyone else
and in Devon, and James.
Thank you. Thanks, everybody. Itwas wonderful. My pleasure. I

(01:26:40):
just wanted to say to all of youthat labels really are terrible
things because we're labeled asa minority. And I saw nothing
minor from it.