August 8, 2025 β’ 42 mins
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hello, my name is Connor and I'm Jason, and you
are listening to the Amazed andPerplexed podcast, so I want to
honor.
I believe in the most recentepisode that we released, we
(00:21):
brought to attention that thereis an easy way to get a hold of
us, and so we've had somebody uhapproach us with a very serious
question and I want to give itthe honor and dignity that uh,
such a serious and weightymatter uh is, you know, requires
um, demands, I would even sayso.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
This is uh.
By the way, I've never heardthis question before so this
email is from?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
uh, I was gonna give the full email out, but it's
from tim rush, supposedly I lovethat we'll see.
We'll see why that, why this isposted, uh.
And he says since you said wecould contact you, I'm just
testing the system.
But if you ever answerquestions from the mail mailbag
quote how are babies made?
Question mark signed jeremythornton, and then he says some
very kind words to how we aredoing and so I want to give the
(01:08):
best possible answer, justbecause I don't know.
This is just something I'vebeen thinking about a lot
recently and I've been reallycompelled by your wife is
pregnant.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
My wife is pregnant, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, so hopefully, second time around, hopefully,
I'll figure out how this wholedeal works.
But there's some reallyinteresting work if you haven't
dove into the Bible projectabout the work around God's
spirit, the Ruach, his breath,and how he breathes life into
Adam, and this thing can betraced all throughout the Old
(01:41):
Testament.
But one of the things I thinkabout like when, how are human
beings made?
Like, how is a being made inthe image of God?
Ultimately, I think the answeris that the Spirit of God is
literally breathed into us.
And if you've ever experienced,if you've ever been in the room
when a baby is born I rememberwhen my daughter was born and
(02:02):
she, like you know she's out andyou know it takes a moment for
them to start breathing and youcan kind of hear we could hear a
midwife.
You know, come on, come on, comeon and then you hear that first
cry and it's like thismiraculous thing, um, and if you
have been in the room withsomebody as they took their
final breath and suddenlythere's no more life there, it's
(02:24):
like the molecules are the samebut there's something gone,
there's something less orsomething different, and I
submit to you that it is thespirit of God being breathed
into us, and so one of thethings that's been really
helpful for me and this is again, this is a direct Bible project
thing, I'm totally ripping itall off is that how a human
being is made, is that thebreath of God is breathed into
them, and that helps me rememberthat every breath I take is a
(02:46):
moment that God is breathinginto my life.
So, tim, that is your veryserious answer for how babies
are made.
That is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I think it's fascinating that when we say how
our babies made, we always goto only the biological aspect of
the progress or the process.
I think that's really beautiful, not only to sidestep having to
answer that or the process.
I think that's really beautiful, not only to sidestep having to
answer that, but no, I thinkthat's super legitimate.
And we talk about the miracleof birth, but I rarely hear
(03:14):
people maybe never hear peopletalk about man, god breathed
life into them in this way andso so much there.
Um, but there's somethingreally beautiful and and tim, I
know it's a funny question,simply because I've answered
that for you pretty much everyday I for the last what?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
10 years.
That's actually why I took thejob at memorial.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
She's like I've got to know he had three kids and
he's like kim won't explain it.
Um, but no, I, I reallyactually appreciate now, did he
say the question was on behalfof Jeremy Thornton?
Is that what he said?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
He said how are babies made?
Signed Jeremy Thornton.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Jeremy Thornton is my brother to those that don't
know, my younger brother and oneof several, and I'm very proud
of him.
And Tim and Jeremy and I haveknown each other for decades now
, and Jeremy probably.
Well, I'm proud of him, and Timand Jeremy and I have known
each other for decades now.
And, uh, jeremy probably.
Well, I'm gonna go ahead andsay Jeremy had nothing to do
with that, but it is just likeTim to give him credit.
(04:12):
But I will ask Jeremy if heneeds those answers.
Uh, as his he's almost he's ahalf empty nester right now, and
so, uh, I think you should havethat locked down just in case.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Well, and I think you know this was a beautiful
moment because Indigo has askedyou know before you know.
Hey, where did this baby comefrom?
In mommy's belly, and shedoesn't appreciate me explaining
to her about the rule lock ofGod.
And so you know, she justeventually I talk so much, it
just bores her and she wants asnack, which is a win.
You know in my book, don't wedo all the right things.
(04:44):
Snack, which is a win.
You know in my book, um, don'twe do all the right things.
We've read all the new studiesabout how you talk to your kids
about that stuff.
Don't worry, we're not likewe're not, we're not leaving her
out.
But for part of the joke, Ihave tried to explain to her
about the spirit of god and thenshe just wants animal crackers
after.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
That doesn't matter you know she and I have the same
driver.
By the way, do you have anyaround here?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
only the ones that come in the really cool boxes.
I hate the big, big the bigtubs, oh the tubs.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, I want, I want the actual boxes that one small
batch I want that.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I want the, the boxes that imitate the, the old-timey
zoos that were just rough withanimal cruelty.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes, they remind me of russian zoos.
I've only been to one, but itleft an impression on me, that's
actually the theme of ourchild's nursery.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
It's gonna going to be Russian zoos.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh, I got pictures.
Oh, man, to see a polar bear dowhat kids do when they don't
get any care when they're raised, that's a frightening sight.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Anyway, let's just jump into the text.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, so we're in the book of John.
Finally, out of John, chapterseven, which it was a beautiful
experience, it's nice to be inJohn 8.
As we progress through the lifeof Christ here on Amazed and
Perplexed, I just want to remindyou that we are trying to do
the proverbial look over theshoulder at the people
surrounding Jesus, and John 7was fundamentally about one
(05:59):
conversation from very differentperspectives, whether it's
Jesus' brothers or the Jewishpeople that believe that, don't
believe the Pharisees, theguards.
I mean, you had all those looksand so it'd be a fascinating
thing to even go back, not inamazement reflects but in our
own thinking and just thinkabout how the different vantage
points shape what Jesus said andhow people responded.
(06:20):
But we're now moving into a morefluid narrative and a familiar
narrative to most of us, in John, chapter 8.
And we made a mention lastepisode about just this dynamic
that John 7 in the late 50sthere, or the early 50s there,
versus through the first 11verses of John 8 is not in as
(06:42):
many manuscripts and so mostversions have some kind of
notation that says we don't knowif this is exactly, we don't
know if it's true, and so Idon't know if you'd have
anything more to say about that.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, no, I think here here's, I think there are
two choices when it comes to howwe, how we view manuscript
evidence and how we view theBible that's been handed down to
us.
Either we take the old school, Ithink.
I think you can either take thehead in the sand old school
fundamentalist role of like nope, my Bible is is the is the same
(07:18):
King James English that Jesusspoke, and that's you know.
And again, like that's a slightcaricature, you can put your
head in the sand and pretend asif when Paul's writing his
letters, paul's not even reallythere.
God's just using his body as atemplate to write it, although I
do think my understanding ofthe evidence is Paul probably
(07:38):
dictated more than he actuallywrote.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
That's just that was the letter.
Somebody else was doing that.
Yeah, how letter writing.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So god is in the mind of paul.
A lot of you can.
You can do the mentalgymnastics to be like, well, god
is actually in paul and he isusing paul's mouth to
specifically give these words.
Or you can take the morenuanced approach.
You know these are human, uh,these are written by humans in
in concert with the Holy Spiritand at the time of Jesus and
(08:11):
after Jesus.
There are many, many items thatare circulating that say report
different things about the lifeof Jesus, and how the
canonization process worked isnot necessarily the Da Vinci
Code reality.
It's not necessarily the DaVinci Code reality, but by the
time the official canonizationprocess took place, basically
the New Testament canon that wegot was the accepted text that
(08:36):
the church global had basicallybeen like yeah, this is true,
this is what we can trust, andbasically that Bible is given to
us today.
And so when we think aboutspecifically this example in
John, chapter 8 and a little bitof 7, if you are the kind of
person that wants to come downhard and be like, no, it's not
(08:57):
in the earliest manuscripts wehave right now, in July of 2025,
okay, you know, that's totallyfine I think that's a position
that a follower of Jesus canhave.
On the other hand, what I wouldsay is one I would suspect that
there will be many moremanuscripts.
We find manuscripts of thesethings all the time, so saying
(09:20):
and again in the year 2025, july2025, that this does not match
up with our earliest manuscripts.
Right now, you know, and so whoknows what will come, what
won't come, my personal beliefas it pertains to this, and
really the whole of scripture ifGod wanted to fully excise
(09:41):
anything from the Bible that theearly Christians thought were
Bible, he's got the time andhe's got the resources to do it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And yeah, and it's funny, as you talk about that, I
think and I've been taught alot in school and a small
portion of that I've retainedand this specific issue of
canonization, I really do falland sometimes I think it's head
in the sand, like I choose headin the sand in this way of
exactly that thinking is, godhas plenty of time and I will
(10:10):
give him all my life for him tosay, hey, this doesn't count and
that does count and I feelcomfortable with that.
But a lot of this comes down todo you trust God or do you
trust your understanding of God,which typically is your
interpretation of the scripturesyou know, and so and there's a
difference- you know, and so, asa person that tries to force
(10:32):
himself to acknowledge thatdifference, oh, I'm not trusting
God.
I'm trusting in myinterpretation of his word,
which those may be the samething in terms of the facts that
you're considering.
Like I trust that Jesus is theSon of God and the Bible says
Jesus is the Son of God.
But there are times that, well,bottom line, if you've ever
(10:53):
read the Bible, and you say toyourself I've never noticed that
before.
Oh, that changes the way Ithink about that.
Well, the Bible hasn't changedand God hasn't changed.
It's just your understanding,your interpretation of that
thing has changed, and I thinkit's, I was going to say foolish
, but I think it may even besinful to say I know what I know
(11:15):
and I'll never know anythingnew.
That's literally saying I'm nolonger going to be a disciple,
because disciple means learner,and so, and Jesus often will say
, man, you got to be open to thenew.
You got to be open to the newbecause God will teach you.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
That's really helpful and I think it's clarifying the
idea of like having my head inthe sand and trusting God.
I think the difference betweenthe kind of head in the sand
you're talking about versus thenot allowing any questions about
the formation of the Bible tocome in is if tomorrow across
the Mediterranean there are new,they find new caves, they have
(11:49):
all over the Mediterranean andthey get all these examples of
New Testament documents andthere's even, there's
contemporary writings at thetime Like hey, there's these
other people saying again theydidn't have the verses, but John
7.53 through John 8.11 is partof the gospel.
We just want you to know.
We know the guy who came upwith that.
That's not true.
Go talk to the other church inthis place and that place and
(12:10):
then we go and we find documentsfrom them Like again, that
could happen and if that happens, okay cool.
This could all be in the longprocess century.
Um, you know, we as the churchglobal decide hey, I think we're
gonna excise this portion ofscripture.
We don't think it adds up.
If jesus comes back tomorrow,that feels like, well, that's
(12:33):
kind of weird that god would letthat go on.
But if it's 40 000 years fromnow, that's like, oh, that's
pretty early on in the historyof the church that, uh, that
that god worked that out and Iand I and I can trust god with
that, and so, yeah, I thinkwe're not textual experts in any
way.
There's a lot of good stuff outthere, both from people who
completely believe in the Bibleand Jesus and God and people who
(12:54):
don't, and none of it shouldmake you afraid.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, and that's it.
God wants you to feel faith,and that's inviting what you
just said is so important.
He wants you not to be afraidof the work of the devil.
He wants you to feel faith, andthat's inviting what you just
said is so important.
He wants you not to be afraidof the work of the devil.
He wants you not to be afraidof the future.
He also wants you not to beafraid of making mistakes, of
misunderstanding something.
It's not that he wants you tomisunderstand.
He's just like you're a human,You're going to misunderstand
(13:19):
some stuff.
And if there's anything we learnfrom the apostles is they did
not get it the first, second,third, fourth, fifth, sixth,
seventh, eighth time.
And he's not like I'm doneuntil you get it.
He's just like hey, as long asyou're willing, I'll keep
teaching you, and I think that'simportant.
So we're jumping into thisstory and the last we heard from
Jesus is that everybody if Iremember correctly, everybody
(13:44):
goes home.
They all went home, and soJesus went to wherever he was,
which was the Mount of Olives.
And that's what we learn inverse one of chapter eight, and
it leads into this interactionwhich has been well discussed.
I'm sure if you've been inchurch circles at all, but I'm
intrigued with what God willgive us today.
I'm going to jump in there inverse one.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So real quick, I do want to just a little bit of
context, I think, to give somedignity to the one caught in
adultery.
Spoiler alert, if you stillhaven't caught on to that that's
what we're talking about.
That's what we're talking abouttoday, and so this is happening
Again.
This is happening at the end ofthe Festival of Tabernacles.
A lot of what we talked about,uh, the past few weeks is taking
(14:31):
place during the festival oftabernacles.
This is the end.
So this is the culmination oflike a week long party, um of
people gathering from all overIsrael in in Jerusalem, uh, to
celebrate and to um and takepart into this, into this
festival, um, and so when youbegin to realize that this woman
caught in adultery this is,she's caught in adultery um,
basically in the penultimate dayof this festival, where people
have been gathering, drinking,partying, um, you kind of get
this.
This takes on a more um, thisfeels like more approachable
(14:53):
where, as I always grew up, whenI would read the story and be
like, well, that's kind of weird, like you know, this random
woman gets caught in adultery,but when you place it into the
proper context of like thismassive festival and this
woman's walk of shame is put onfor all to display like it makes
(15:14):
it makes what she's goingthrough all the more.
It helps, at least for me.
Putting in the proper contexthelps me truly get a better
picture of what this moment withJesus must feel like to her, on
top of all the things that areabout to happen in the context
(15:35):
of what her past 24 hours musthave been.
And then going forward,Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
That's really good and that's honestly.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause I had disconnected it
from seven.
But this is a direct connection, even to the point.
A lot of times chapter breaksare they don't do it in the
middle of the action, but inthis again, the manuscript, the
later manuscripts, have Jesus'sresponse to that interaction.
But Jesus went to the Mount ofOlives as the first part of the
(15:59):
next chapter, which is unusual.
They usually don't break theaction up that way, but I do
think this is a way that maybethe original people that did the
canonization and put you knowthe original manuscripts didn't
have chapter and verses, if youdidn't know that, that's true.
And so I do wonder if they wantto say hey, I don't want you to
(16:20):
miss this.
This is an extension of thevirtual same conversation and I
won't say anything more there.
I'll get to that with whatamazes me, I think.
So verse one of John, chaptereight.
But John went to the Mount ofOlives, not John.
Let's go back.
This is going to be about Jesus.
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Oh, 11 minutes.
I didn't get there.
I'm like, oh, who are we?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
talking about.
But Jesus, there we go went tothe Mount of Olives.
At dawn he appeared again inthe temple courts, where all the
people gathered around him andhe sat down to teach them.
The teachers of the law and thePharisees brought in a woman
caught in adultery.
They made her stand before thegroup and said to Jesus teacher,
(16:56):
this woman was caught in theact of adultery In the law.
Moses commanded us to stonesuch women.
Now what do you say?
They were using this question asa trap in order to have a basis
for accusing him, but Jesusbent down and started to write
on the ground with his finger.
When they kept on questioninghim, he straightened up and said
to them Let any of you who iswithout sin be the first to
throw a stone at her.
(17:16):
Again, he stooped down andwrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard beganto go away, one at a time, the
older ones first, until onlyJesus was left with the woman
still standing there.
Jesus straightened up and askedher Woman where are they?
Has no one condemned you?
No one, sir.
She said.
Then neither do I condemn you.
(17:36):
Jesus declared Go now and leaveyour life of sin.
Okay, so after all that nowwe're at 13-minute mark or
whatever.
Yeah, what amazes you?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I mean there's so much here I am just struck by.
Well, there's so many thingsthat amaze me about this
interaction, but what I'm drawnto is towards the end of this
passage and thinking about whatthis woman would have been going
through, what led her up to thepoint of committing adultery,
what sort of shame was shefeeling?
(18:09):
Are, and so like, obviously, um, if I was to go commit adultery
, I would feel lots of shame.
But even what I would feelabout it probably wouldn't fully
um, fully get to how she feels.
Um, and I mean there's so,there's so much here.
But I think about um to go from.
(18:31):
She makes this really awfulmistake and then she's used as
she's, she's singled out, she'sused as a prop um, she's
objectified and then, at the endof it, she's left alone with
the savior of the world offeringher mercy and and forgiveness
and grace.
And I I just think, um, thewhirlwind for that for her must
(18:53):
have just been so, so crazy tothink about.
Um, to think about.
If, tonight, let's just I wouldthink about somebody you know
who, like, maybe they're livinga life that you're like, man, I
don't think that's reallyhealthy for them to think about.
Tonight they're gonna make areally awful decision for
(19:13):
themselves, incredibly unhealthyand destructive for them and
for other people.
And then to think, but yeah,that's going to lead to
literally God, to that persongetting a moment alone with God.
That's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
It is, it is and those social dynamics.
Sometimes that's hard for us.
That's why I think a lot ofpeople have enjoyed the Chosen,
because it at least gives oneperson, one writer's perspective
on.
Here are the social dynamicsseparating this, but I think it
is important to remember theBible did not have to be written
this way.
Jesus could have just it, couldhave just been the teaching and
(19:52):
dealing with your oxen, do this, and dealing with your neighbor
, do that, you know, likeLeviticus, you know.
But instead we have this mostlynarrative story of Jesus
interacting with real people.
So I do think it's significantand maybe that's self-evident,
but I certainly wouldn't raisethat way Every time I'd read a
story.
It's about what's the moralLike?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
basically, what are you doing wrong that you need to
stop is how I read the bible.
Yeah, you know, what's soincredible to me about this is
like jesus addresses the dangerthat she's in both, like both
literal, physical danger ofpossible death, and then the
religious and cultural dangershe's in um, but like if jesus
was just gonna like, jesusdoesn't.
What's so, what's so incredibleabout it is is the pharisee
(20:34):
they want to use this woman as aprop and jesus very easily
could use woman as a prop, andJesus very easily could use her
as a prop if he wanted to, andhe could turn around and he
could be like and use her, likepick her up and use her as a
sermon, you know, as a sermonprop, to then go and expound
upon this.
But the meat of what, whenJesus of G, when, when Jesus is
directly dealing um with her andwhat is going on in her heart
(20:59):
and her life, Um, it'sone-on-one Um and that that is
so, so dignifying Um.
Because man, if there wasanybody like collectively that
that he, Jesus, would have likegotten a pass for, uh,
dehumanizing, it would have beenthis woman, because once she
was a woman so she didn't matteras much.
Like, again, very common topoint out.
Where's the guy that alsocommitted adultery?
(21:19):
What you know, what's going onwith him, Didn't matter to the
Pharisees.
It was the woman, because youknow, she was basically the
ideal prop to try to use him.
Use as a trap.
And Jesus does not just freethis woman, does not just save
(21:43):
her life, but he also justcompletely obliterates the
notion that God is okay with onetreating women this way and
also just treating human beingsas anything less than the
dignified image bearers thatthey are.
They are.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, this is one of those.
It's like when he touches theleper and he doesn't need to, he
just could have healed him.
It's him saying this isn't justhey, I came to heal, job done.
You know, this is a realconnection and it's a tremendous
teaching tool on, not that youwould do this specific word, but
the spirit of helping people.
(22:21):
I think what amazes me is andI'm thinking of myself from
Jesus' perspective instead offrom the woman's perspective for
this point but I'll take asimple thing like opening the
door for someone.
When I open the door forsomeone to get in, so that's an
expression of grace, um, throughkindness, I'm being kind of
open the door.
(22:42):
If they say thank you, thenit's like it's been
transactional I did for them,they did for me, we're all good.
Or if they're like, oh, you'revery kind.
Oh no, don't mention it, youknow.
But if they walk through andthey say nothing, then I make a
judgment.
They're.
If they were to smack me whileI was doing it, I would be like
that is ridiculous.
And if they were to shove me tothe ground and beat on me, I'm
(23:04):
like there must be a judgment.
Or let's say the verbal theyjust who do you think you think
you're better than me?
Open the door, that kind ofthing.
Jesus just spent the day the daybefore dealing with, I presume,
these same Pharisees.
These are the same Phariseesthat sent guards to arrest him
and it wasn't successful.
(23:24):
And to me this is.
It makes more sense, and I'llelaborate in a second.
If this is premeditated, itmakes a little bit more sense to
me, although I completelyaccept that it wasn't
premeditated.
They encountered this lady.
It became evident, oh, shecommitted adultery and they took
her to him.
But the fact that he chose toshow kindness to the Pharisees
(23:48):
and show them and allow themwith dignity, where he could
have easily said you carenothing about this woman because
you care nothing about God, Imean, this has been the perfect
time to unload on these guys andhe gives them a dignified way
to walk away, that's stunning,that level of self-control, that
he's not seething with angerover what happened the day
(24:09):
before, and now it's even goinglower.
It's one thing for them to comewith power and say we're in
charge, the guards are here.
It's another thing to take acompletely vulnerable person and
be manipulative.
Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And you think about if Jesus had used an opportunity
to rightfully rip into themwith this woman at his side,
like what does that mean forthat woman's future?
Where it's like, hey, not onlydoes the whole, like everyone
around, know that she committedadultery, but also she's now
wrapped up with this rabbi,fellow Jesus, who's a
revolutionary, who's going toget us all killed, and then, for
(24:42):
all we know, she becomes even afurther object of anger from
the Pharisees or from thereligious elite.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
And, yeah, the discipline and just the care
that Jesus uses in the scenario,it's just mind boggling it is,
and you know, tim Rush is thefirst one I heard suggest that
when it says was this woman wascaught in adultery, so that's
past tense.
Is it likely in this smallcommunity that she had been
(25:10):
wearing, actually, that scarletletter for a long time, you know
?
And so she became known and thePharisees who the day before
tried to solve the Jesus problemwith the guards, are now saying
, okay, we need to find anotherway to solve it.
Ooh, get that woman.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And we bring her up and to me, I mean it matters to
her.
But to me, if she had justcommitted adultery and this was
fresh and let's say it was thefirst time she committed
adultery, that is awful.
If adultery and this was freshand let's say it was the first
time she committed adultery,that is awful.
If she committed adultery awhile ago and now was ostracized
and she was dragged in kind oflike the woman at the well felt,
you know, I mean either way,the offense of them treating her
(25:47):
, like you were saying, as as aprop, so offensive.
And then, and this can easilyget to, what perplexes me is how
do I not make people how do I?
not make the last as a minister,the last conversation that I
had with a person, that thatperson's story then becomes a
prop for a moral of the story,absolutely you know that that is
that is really difficult.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I do think um, there is a, whether it was adultery
committed in the past or thenight before, um, I it is.
It is worth pointing out that,again, this is happening at the
end of a big, long festival, soI don't mean to get too mature.
I would have to imagine therewas other adulterers in that
(26:31):
crowd, as one of the massivefestivals that takes place
around Jerusalem, there wouldhave been people traveling in
and out.
And generally speaking, evenwhen really religious people
party and drink, usually thatdoesn't lead to the best
outcomes, and so the fact thatthis woman gets singled out and
I begin to wonder, like whetherit was in the past or if it was
(26:52):
the night, of what that wouldmean to anybody else.
the night before that hadexperienced that had also sinned
or not even committed adultery,but drank too much and then
went home and did something,whatever it would be, I just
think for the people that wouldhear about this or witness it I
love the idea of it happening along time ago and then the
(27:16):
people that knew about her andthen hearing about it for the
first time, or if it happenedthe night before, and the person
that thinks, wow, I just gotscot-free because I heard the
five tenths over.
That woman was caught inadultery and the Pharisees
yanked her away, and now she'sdealing with this and little do
they know.
Five tenths over, I'm alsocommitting adultery.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Right, but then also it's like when somebody gets
pulled over, yeah.
That's in front of you Like oh,I was also speeding.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And you think about what it would have meant for
them.
And then later on, I'm soexcited to get into what Jesus
will then say about, um, we'llthen say, and how this would
have connected to all all thesesorts of people.
Um, I do.
It is important to remindourselves, like there was
probably somebody in that crowdwho did commit adultery and, in
their mind, got away with it andthen maybe they just kept going
(28:03):
committing adultery.
Yeah, and the grace.
It is better for this woman,ultimately, that she was caught
in her adultery and got to meetJesus, to meet Jesus.
And so, like again, we had aprevious conversation before we
started recording about notwanting to go through pain or
not wanting to go through aheartache, but how it's usually,
(28:23):
the most can be the mosttransformational time of our
lives in terms of growing closerto God.
And now you were speaking morein terms of tragedy happening to
us.
But even being caught in oursin, or even being caught in our
own you know, in our ownmistakes, can be a grace.
And again, when that isn'thappening to you that can seem
like good news, but in themoment, that could not have felt
(28:46):
like good news, but I think itis important to point out that
this woman met literal God andexperienced a personal touch of
forgiveness and grace and mercy,because she was caught and yeah
, I don't know what to do withit, but it's true.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, One of the things I know, if something is a
good movie, especially if Idon't anticipate 12 sequels
coming for it is oh man, I wantto know what happened to him a
year from now, two years fromnow.
This is a lady I want to sitwith 10 years later and say, hey
, what happened?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
What happened.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
You know, I'm just so curious because it does feel
almost a little negligent.
And usually, I think, in thepast, when we process the
scripture, my perplexion is whydoes Jesus leave her so
vulnerable?
Because if it's just happened,now she's got to deal with this.
I would think he'd be like, hey, go and send them more and find
a 12 step or something you knowkind of thing.
I'm not going to go thatdirection with that now.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Or you'd be like hey, martha, you want to like
disciple her for a while.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Actually, here's a great entry step.
We'll start our intern processhere of really getting you know.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Exactly right.
Yeah, come follow me when Icircle back to this place.
Some kind of security, and thenthat just shows Jesus entrusted
these people with God.
You know, even his leaving ofthe apostles as big of that as
there's this plan he's going tocall apostles, going to leave
these apostles they're plan A toshare his word how threatening
(30:18):
that would feel, you know it'sjust.
Yeah, it's perplexing.
How to know how he felt safe,leaving people unprotected,
absolutely.
You know that's perplexing.
But the thing I want to reallykey on I want to be really
perplexed.
Yeah, that's, in this moment,perplexing me is he trusts God
with the response of the badguys in the story.
(30:42):
Then he's next level with this,like, if you imagine, all right
, connor, I wrote someguidelines on how to confront
people that are going to murdersomebody else.
And you're like, okay, tell memore.
And I'm like first, say nothing.
You're like now what?
Yeah, they're going to makethese accusations and they don't
stop, like we have these smallquestions, but it says they keep
questioning.
So you're going to bend downand write in the dirt.
(31:05):
What am I writing in the dirt?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I'm like I'm not going to tell you it doesn't
matter, I'm not going to tellyou.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So you write in the dirt, I get it.
You're basically saying Iacknowledge that she deserves
this.
So what we're going to do iswe're going to vet the
participant.
If you don't have sin, then youcan stone her and then they go
away slowly and then you justbend down, like what happens
(31:30):
when they throw the stones,because I don't trust people
enough not to throw the stones,especially if they're already
setting up this, this girl, thislady, in such an evil way and
he entrusts conviction of the,of the spirit, I suppose, on
these men's hearts to not stoneher.
These are the same people thatin other settings, will try to
(31:51):
stone him, yes, and eventuallywill stone.
Not the same individuals, maybe, but the same type of who will
stone.
Not the same individuals, maybe, but the same type of person
who will stone Stephen to deathor stone Paul, thinking they're
stoning him to death.
And I'm like I am so perplexed.
How would you trust these guys?
And these are Bible-studying,monotheistic guys, but they
clearly weren't loving and theydon't care for her because of
what you said the prop.
(32:12):
That's mind-blowing to me.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, no, that is fascinating, that's mind-blowing
to me.
Yeah, no, that is, that is.
It is fascinating and thinkabout what jesus, how, how, what
, what were the possibilities inthe mind of jesus of how could
this go?
Did, did he have a, a knowledgethat it would play out exactly
how it played out?
Or was it one of manypossibilities where, like he
knew, oh, like, if I say that,like, say this, it might cause
(32:35):
one person to stone and then,because one person through the
first stone, it's a lot easierfor people to join in afterwards
and then, um, is it is, is the?
Is the next version?
Is the possibility that jesus islike, oh, like, I'll heal her,
whatever, you know, whatever, oris it like right, yeah, I've
forgiven her, I've given her, I,I like, I know, I'm going to
give this woman mercy, like ifshe, if she was, if, uh, like I
know, I'm going to give thiswoman mercy, like if she, if she
(32:56):
was, if, uh, like I know, I'mgoing to give her mercy.
Um and so, if she dies now,okay, you know, like I, I, I
trust the father with that.
Thinking about through thepossibilities of how, of how
this would play out, is so, isso perplexing because in my mind
I just watched a hostagehostage movie recently.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
so this is fresh on my mind.
It's kind of like a hostilesituation where, like you feel
like you need to get like.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Every word has to be completely measured because, as
as they're seeking a way andthere's some people that think
that, like they had no intentionof stoning this woman here- now
there's some people who believethat um I don't, I don't know
whether that's, whether that'strue or not.
Um, certainly they're ready topounce on any mistake he made or
, you know, any mistake she madebecause of him.
(33:41):
In that moment, I find myselfperplexed by.
I am also perplexed.
I am also perplexed by whatyou're talking about where, like
, every word that Jesus issaying here is so weighty and is
and somebody's life is in thebalance and I guess this is true
(34:03):
for all the life of Jesus where, like his words, all of our
lives are in the balance, butwhen it's actually, when a life
is, life is potentially,potentially imminently going to
be over, based on the responseof people to his words, like how
, how, yeah, how he's, how he's.
So I don't say cavalier about it, um, and maybe it is cavalier,
(34:27):
like, how, like, and for all weknow, jesus could have said
these things like we read it andit's kind of like in this, in
this easy, calm, calm manner.
And maybe it wasn't, maybe itwas more, you know, maybe he
said it in in clipped ways ormaybe, you know, maybe he had
classic hostage negotiator right, uh, after he bent down and
stood up.
Maybe it was kind of like akeeping the.
(34:47):
Yeah, I just saw watch your atthe jurassic world again.
Not a good movie, doesn't holdup.
But we're like you know, the.
The classic thing in the newjurassic world is where the
whole they'll put their arm outto hold out the raptor and it
just keeps happening, or maybe?
maybe, maybe there's some ofthat, maybe there's some body
language here that he's trained.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
We don't know.
Well, there's also the mysteryyeah, if he's writing down and
that's this makes sense if he'swriting down the list, yeah,
well, let's say you and I arethere and uh, and he says, what
he's writing in the dirt isconnor and then a list of your
sins, sure yeah, and it was likereally penetrating.
And true, jason.
Here's a list of jason.
Since then, all of a sudden I'mlike, well, that makes sense.
(35:23):
I do think it's fascinatingagain, the bible doesn't record
a ton of stuff that would befascinating to know.
Why record that he writes twicein the dirt and not tell us
what he writes?
That's another thing that'slike hugely, you know oh, that's
just perplexing.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
That's 100 my perplexion it always has been
and it's funny because there arethings you know.
I've heard the explanation ofhim writing their sins, but
again, like, maybe, maybe not,although I do think, man, that
could probably cause somebody tolike throw a stone earlier
because, like, if it's true ifit's like, oh, jason, we're
writing out his sins.
Like I'm gonna look at jasonand be like, oh, some of that's
true, whatever.
Then he starts to write connorand like if I'm like worried
(36:03):
about my reputation just goingto be like if somebody throws a
stone out there, maybe he won'twrite my sins.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
But yeah, no, I think there are a lot of times in
Scripture where we'll havemystery around a situation and
you can kind of dance around andplay with it, but this is just
fundamentally one of thosethings where it's like this is
between Jesus, the woman and thePharisees, and it's like that.
There is something like that inscripture where God's like you
don't need to know about thatYou're good, you're good, and so
(36:34):
, again, I could choose to beamazed by it in this moment and
be like, is it a way of honoringthe Pharisees?
And if it is something like hewrote the sins of what they were
doing, or I've heard he waswriting out different laws of
the old testament, or you know,whatever would be.
Um, if it was somethingintimate, like maybe, if that
would maybe lead me to believeit was something intimate
(36:55):
between just the pharisees andjesus and the woman caught in
adultery, like, is that a way ofhim?
also not using them as a prop.
I don't, I don't know, yeah,but but it's so much still so
perplexing, because if it was hewrote, if he was quoting the
Old Testament, then it's likethat'd be good to know.
I feel like that'd be helpfulto know, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Yeah, in terms of application it is challenging.
I do want to amplify this onepoint, which probably would fit
into amazement.
If you're ever trying to helpsomebody, like you see somebody
in need and you're in a positionwhere you can help them, the
question that always crossesyour mind is how much is enough?
You know, from the simple, Ihave a dollar that I can give
(37:36):
them, but I can also give themthis hundred dollar bill to.
I listen to them, but I knowthey have a world of problems
and they're going to needintensive counseling and
discipleship for years and yearsand years.
And that's always possible.
It's always possible that Godwill lead you to do it.
But I'm so impressed with Jesusgiving her what she needed and
(37:57):
not taking responsibility forher faith, not taking
responsibility for her journey.
And we have no idea had Jesustalked to her 10 times, for this
, the first time he's meetingher.
Will he see her 12 times after?
We don't know, but there's norecord in the New Testament of
him ever seeing this woman, andwe touched on it in the sense of
we feel like he should give hermore structure.
But Jesus' confidence that whatGod had led him to do was what
(38:20):
was needed to do is a confidencewe can have.
I was with somebody earlier.
I talked to that person.
I'm saying real time.
She was in some crisis.
I talked to her.
I have all this stuff in me thatsays I need to do more, I need
to do more, I need to do more,and that may be true, but it
also may be true that I did whatI need to do.
(38:41):
And the key here is I just keepasking God, and if God gives me
the opportunity to do more, Ishould do it.
But if he doesn't, then Ishouldn't do it and feel just as
good, because I do not take onthe salvation of anybody else.
I have my salvation to tend toand then I have blessing to give
from that security.
But the devil loves to take agood situation and turn it evil
(39:05):
by saying you're responsible forthis person.
And I would just say to theperson out there that's trying
to help the woman caught inadultery in their life I would
want them to take a signal fromJesus.
Do what you can, offer it toGod and then, if God gives you
another opportunity, act and ifnot, feel totally at peace.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
You know, maybe this is simple and maybe this is a
duh sort of statement for um,for the listener or even maybe
for us, like if we thought aboutit for more than five seconds.
But I do wonder and it's thiscircumstance, when we're like
man, why does Jesus not feelcompelled to do more, Like if
what we can have confidence in,whether it's the person we meet
(39:41):
with or somebody who asks formoney or whatever the situation
would be how do we trust thatwe've done enough or whatever?
So, ultimately, we trust Godand ultimately it's what we
trust in, in Jesus life, deathand resurrection.
And like does Jesus.
Is that how Jesus operates too,when he's like he thinks about
what this woman could go throughand all the things that she's
going to need, and he's likelisten, I gave.
(40:02):
In the moment when she was withme, I gave her exactly what we
need and and also I know, I knowwhere, where my life is going,
and I ultimately know I am goingto offer her what she needs
fundamentally no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Whether this is the most substantiated story or not,
it is certainly a story Iprobably touch on consciously
and subconsciously all the time,as an example of Jesus entering
real pain and real trauma andreal deception and real
injustice which we're notrunning out of injustice in the
world, sadly, you know but tothink, hey, this is how he
(40:51):
stayed sane.
He trusted God, the middle love, the people in front of them,
both the accuser and the accusedman.
That's a great thing for me tojust take in today, yeah that is
that is so helpful and it's agood reminder.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Whether it's you personally, personally, or
somebody you know in your lifewho is doing active, actively
destroying their life or makingjust horrific decisions for
themselves and others, for allyou know, they could be 12 hours
away from literally being inthe presence of God and, again,
(41:24):
very painful experience.
Wouldn't wish this on somebody,but that can give me hope that
we never know when exactly Godis going to show up in a massive
way.
But it's also comforting toknow, just because we don't know
, the exact moment or time wherethat might take place.
It also means, for all I know,two seconds from now I could
(41:45):
feel God more strongly isn't theright word.
I could feel his presence morethan I've ever felt it before.
Two seconds from now, and, yeah, that's just a reality of being
human and that's something Iwant to hold on to Grace, peace
and love.
Thank you.
Hello, my name is Connor and I'm Jason, and you
are listening to the Amazed andPerplexed podcast, so I want to
honor.
I believe in the most recentepisode that we released, we
(00:21):
brought to attention that thereis an easy way to get a hold of
us, and so we've had somebody uhapproach us with a very serious
question and I want to give itthe honor and dignity that uh,
such a serious and weightymatter uh is, you know, requires
um, demands, I would even sayso.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
This is uh.
By the way, I've never heardthis question before so this
email is from?
Speaker 1 (00:43):
uh, I was gonna give the full email out, but it's
from tim rush, supposedly I lovethat we'll see.
We'll see why that, why this isposted, uh.
And he says since you said wecould contact you, I'm just
testing the system.
But if you ever answerquestions from the mail mailbag
quote how are babies made?
Question mark signed jeremythornton, and then he says some
very kind words to how we aredoing and so I want to give the
(01:08):
best possible answer, justbecause I don't know.
This is just something I'vebeen thinking about a lot
recently and I've been reallycompelled by your wife is
pregnant.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
My wife is pregnant, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Yeah, so hopefully, second time around, hopefully,
I'll figure out how this wholedeal works.
But there's some reallyinteresting work if you haven't
dove into the Bible projectabout the work around God's
spirit, the Ruach, his breath,and how he breathes life into
Adam, and this thing can betraced all throughout the Old
(01:41):
Testament.
But one of the things I thinkabout like when, how are human
beings made?
Like, how is a being made inthe image of God?
Ultimately, I think the answeris that the Spirit of God is
literally breathed into us.
And if you've ever experienced,if you've ever been in the room
when a baby is born I rememberwhen my daughter was born and
(02:02):
she, like you know she's out andyou know it takes a moment for
them to start breathing and youcan kind of hear we could hear a
midwife.
You know, come on, come on, comeon and then you hear that first
cry and it's like thismiraculous thing, um, and if you
have been in the room withsomebody as they took their
final breath and suddenlythere's no more life there, it's
(02:24):
like the molecules are the samebut there's something gone,
there's something less orsomething different, and I
submit to you that it is thespirit of God being breathed
into us, and so one of thethings that's been really
helpful for me and this is again, this is a direct Bible project
thing, I'm totally ripping itall off is that how a human
being is made, is that thebreath of God is breathed into
them, and that helps me rememberthat every breath I take is a
(02:46):
moment that God is breathinginto my life.
So, tim, that is your veryserious answer for how babies
are made.
That is beautiful.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I think it's fascinating that when we say how
our babies made, we always goto only the biological aspect of
the progress or the process.
I think that's really beautiful, not only to sidestep having to
answer that or the process.
I think that's really beautiful, not only to sidestep having to
answer that, but no, I thinkthat's super legitimate.
And we talk about the miracleof birth, but I rarely hear
(03:14):
people maybe never hear peopletalk about man, god breathed
life into them in this way andso so much there.
Um, but there's somethingreally beautiful and and tim, I
know it's a funny question,simply because I've answered
that for you pretty much everyday I for the last what?
Speaker 1 (03:34):
10 years.
That's actually why I took thejob at memorial.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
She's like I've got to know he had three kids and
he's like kim won't explain it.
Um, but no, I, I reallyactually appreciate now, did he
say the question was on behalfof Jeremy Thornton?
Is that what he said?
Speaker 1 (03:47):
He said how are babies made?
Signed Jeremy Thornton.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Jeremy Thornton is my brother to those that don't
know, my younger brother and oneof several, and I'm very proud
of him.
And Tim and Jeremy and I haveknown each other for decades now
, and Jeremy probably.
Well, I'm proud of him, and Timand Jeremy and I have known
each other for decades now.
And, uh, jeremy probably.
Well, I'm gonna go ahead andsay Jeremy had nothing to do
with that, but it is just likeTim to give him credit.
(04:12):
But I will ask Jeremy if heneeds those answers.
Uh, as his he's almost he's ahalf empty nester right now, and
so, uh, I think you should havethat locked down just in case.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
Well, and I think you know this was a beautiful
moment because Indigo has askedyou know before you know.
Hey, where did this baby comefrom?
In mommy's belly, and shedoesn't appreciate me explaining
to her about the rule lock ofGod.
And so you know, she justeventually I talk so much, it
just bores her and she wants asnack, which is a win.
You know in my book, don't wedo all the right things.
(04:44):
Snack, which is a win.
You know in my book, um, don'twe do all the right things.
We've read all the new studiesabout how you talk to your kids
about that stuff.
Don't worry, we're not likewe're not, we're not leaving her
out.
But for part of the joke, Ihave tried to explain to her
about the spirit of god and thenshe just wants animal crackers
after.
Speaker 2 (04:54):
That doesn't matter you know she and I have the same
driver.
By the way, do you have anyaround here?
Speaker 1 (05:01):
only the ones that come in the really cool boxes.
I hate the big, big the bigtubs, oh the tubs.
Speaker 2 (05:06):
Yeah, I want, I want the actual boxes that one small
batch I want that.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I want the, the boxes that imitate the, the old-timey
zoos that were just rough withanimal cruelty.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yes, they remind me of russian zoos.
I've only been to one, but itleft an impression on me, that's
actually the theme of ourchild's nursery.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
It's gonna going to be Russian zoos.
Speaker 2 (05:30):
Oh, I got pictures.
Oh, man, to see a polar bear dowhat kids do when they don't
get any care when they're raised, that's a frightening sight.
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Anyway, let's just jump into the text.
Speaker 2 (05:35):
Yeah, so we're in the book of John.
Finally, out of John, chapterseven, which it was a beautiful
experience, it's nice to be inJohn 8.
As we progress through the lifeof Christ here on Amazed and
Perplexed, I just want to remindyou that we are trying to do
the proverbial look over theshoulder at the people
surrounding Jesus, and John 7was fundamentally about one
(05:59):
conversation from very differentperspectives, whether it's
Jesus' brothers or the Jewishpeople that believe that, don't
believe the Pharisees, theguards.
I mean, you had all those looksand so it'd be a fascinating
thing to even go back, not inamazement reflects but in our
own thinking and just thinkabout how the different vantage
points shape what Jesus said andhow people responded.
(06:20):
But we're now moving into a morefluid narrative and a familiar
narrative to most of us, in John, chapter 8.
And we made a mention lastepisode about just this dynamic
that John 7 in the late 50sthere, or the early 50s there,
versus through the first 11verses of John 8 is not in as
(06:42):
many manuscripts and so mostversions have some kind of
notation that says we don't knowif this is exactly, we don't
know if it's true, and so Idon't know if you'd have
anything more to say about that.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
Yeah, no, I think here here's, I think there are
two choices when it comes to howwe, how we view manuscript
evidence and how we view theBible that's been handed down to
us.
Either we take the old school, Ithink.
I think you can either take thehead in the sand old school
fundamentalist role of like nope, my Bible is is the is the same
(07:18):
King James English that Jesusspoke, and that's you know.
And again, like that's a slightcaricature, you can put your
head in the sand and pretend asif when Paul's writing his
letters, paul's not even reallythere.
God's just using his body as atemplate to write it, although I
do think my understanding ofthe evidence is Paul probably
(07:38):
dictated more than he actuallywrote.
Speaker 2 (07:41):
That's just that was the letter.
Somebody else was doing that.
Yeah, how letter writing.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So god is in the mind of paul.
A lot of you can.
You can do the mentalgymnastics to be like, well, god
is actually in paul and he isusing paul's mouth to
specifically give these words.
Or you can take the morenuanced approach.
You know these are human, uh,these are written by humans in
in concert with the Holy Spiritand at the time of Jesus and
(08:11):
after Jesus.
There are many, many items thatare circulating that say report
different things about the lifeof Jesus, and how the
canonization process worked isnot necessarily the Da Vinci
Code reality.
It's not necessarily the DaVinci Code reality, but by the
time the official canonizationprocess took place, basically
the New Testament canon that wegot was the accepted text that
(08:36):
the church global had basicallybeen like yeah, this is true,
this is what we can trust, andbasically that Bible is given to
us today.
And so when we think aboutspecifically this example in
John, chapter 8 and a little bitof 7, if you are the kind of
person that wants to come downhard and be like, no, it's not
(08:57):
in the earliest manuscripts wehave right now, in July of 2025,
okay, you know, that's totallyfine I think that's a position
that a follower of Jesus canhave.
On the other hand, what I wouldsay is one I would suspect that
there will be many moremanuscripts.
We find manuscripts of thesethings all the time, so saying
(09:20):
and again in the year 2025, july2025, that this does not match
up with our earliest manuscripts.
Right now, you know, and so whoknows what will come, what
won't come, my personal beliefas it pertains to this, and
really the whole of scripture ifGod wanted to fully excise
(09:41):
anything from the Bible that theearly Christians thought were
Bible, he's got the time andhe's got the resources to do it.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
And yeah, and it's funny, as you talk about that, I
think and I've been taught alot in school and a small
portion of that I've retainedand this specific issue of
canonization, I really do falland sometimes I think it's head
in the sand, like I choose headin the sand in this way of
exactly that thinking is, godhas plenty of time and I will
(10:10):
give him all my life for him tosay, hey, this doesn't count and
that does count and I feelcomfortable with that.
But a lot of this comes down todo you trust God or do you
trust your understanding of God,which typically is your
interpretation of the scripturesyou know, and so and there's a
difference- you know, and so, asa person that tries to force
(10:32):
himself to acknowledge thatdifference, oh, I'm not trusting
God.
I'm trusting in myinterpretation of his word,
which those may be the samething in terms of the facts that
you're considering.
Like I trust that Jesus is theSon of God and the Bible says
Jesus is the Son of God.
But there are times that, well,bottom line, if you've ever
(10:53):
read the Bible, and you say toyourself I've never noticed that
before.
Oh, that changes the way Ithink about that.
Well, the Bible hasn't changedand God hasn't changed.
It's just your understanding,your interpretation of that
thing has changed, and I thinkit's, I was going to say foolish
, but I think it may even besinful to say I know what I know
(11:15):
and I'll never know anythingnew.
That's literally saying I'm nolonger going to be a disciple,
because disciple means learner,and so, and Jesus often will say
, man, you got to be open to thenew.
You got to be open to the newbecause God will teach you.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
That's really helpful and I think it's clarifying the
idea of like having my head inthe sand and trusting God.
I think the difference betweenthe kind of head in the sand
you're talking about versus thenot allowing any questions about
the formation of the Bible tocome in is if tomorrow across
the Mediterranean there are new,they find new caves, they have
(11:49):
all over the Mediterranean andthey get all these examples of
New Testament documents andthere's even, there's
contemporary writings at thetime Like hey, there's these
other people saying again theydidn't have the verses, but John
7.53 through John 8.11 is partof the gospel.
We just want you to know.
We know the guy who came upwith that.
That's not true.
Go talk to the other church inthis place and that place and
(12:10):
then we go and we find documentsfrom them Like again, that
could happen and if that happens, okay cool.
This could all be in the longprocess century.
Um, you know, we as the churchglobal decide hey, I think we're
gonna excise this portion ofscripture.
We don't think it adds up.
If jesus comes back tomorrow,that feels like, well, that's
(12:33):
kind of weird that god would letthat go on.
But if it's 40 000 years fromnow, that's like, oh, that's
pretty early on in the historyof the church that, uh, that
that god worked that out and Iand I and I can trust god with
that, and so, yeah, I thinkwe're not textual experts in any
way.
There's a lot of good stuff outthere, both from people who
completely believe in the Bibleand Jesus and God and people who
(12:54):
don't, and none of it shouldmake you afraid.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
Yeah, and that's it.
God wants you to feel faith,and that's inviting what you
just said is so important.
He wants you not to be afraidof the work of the devil.
He wants you to feel faith, andthat's inviting what you just
said is so important.
He wants you not to be afraidof the work of the devil.
He wants you not to be afraidof the future.
He also wants you not to beafraid of making mistakes, of
misunderstanding something.
It's not that he wants you tomisunderstand.
He's just like you're a human,You're going to misunderstand
(13:19):
some stuff.
And if there's anything we learnfrom the apostles is they did
not get it the first, second,third, fourth, fifth, sixth,
seventh, eighth time.
And he's not like I'm doneuntil you get it.
He's just like hey, as long asyou're willing, I'll keep
teaching you, and I think that'simportant.
So we're jumping into thisstory and the last we heard from
Jesus is that everybody if Iremember correctly, everybody
(13:44):
goes home.
They all went home, and soJesus went to wherever he was,
which was the Mount of Olives.
And that's what we learn inverse one of chapter eight, and
it leads into this interactionwhich has been well discussed.
I'm sure if you've been inchurch circles at all, but I'm
intrigued with what God willgive us today.
I'm going to jump in there inverse one.
Speaker 1 (14:04):
So real quick, I do want to just a little bit of
context, I think, to give somedignity to the one caught in
adultery.
Spoiler alert, if you stillhaven't caught on to that that's
what we're talking about.
That's what we're talking abouttoday, and so this is happening
Again.
This is happening at the end ofthe Festival of Tabernacles.
A lot of what we talked about,uh, the past few weeks is taking
(14:31):
place during the festival oftabernacles.
This is the end.
So this is the culmination oflike a week long party, um of
people gathering from all overIsrael in in Jerusalem, uh, to
celebrate and to um and takepart into this, into this
festival, um, and so when youbegin to realize that this woman
caught in adultery this is,she's caught in adultery um,
basically in the penultimate dayof this festival, where people
have been gathering, drinking,partying, um, you kind of get
this.
This takes on a more um, thisfeels like more approachable
(14:53):
where, as I always grew up, whenI would read the story and be
like, well, that's kind of weird, like you know, this random
woman gets caught in adultery,but when you place it into the
proper context of like thismassive festival and this
woman's walk of shame is put onfor all to display like it makes
(15:14):
it makes what she's goingthrough all the more.
It helps, at least for me.
Putting in the proper contexthelps me truly get a better
picture of what this moment withJesus must feel like to her, on
top of all the things that areabout to happen in the context
(15:35):
of what her past 24 hours musthave been.
And then going forward,Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
That's really good and that's honestly.
I'm glad you brought it upbecause I had disconnected it
from seven.
But this is a direct connection, even to the point.
A lot of times chapter breaksare they don't do it in the
middle of the action, but inthis again, the manuscript, the
later manuscripts, have Jesus'sresponse to that interaction.
But Jesus went to the Mount ofOlives as the first part of the
(15:59):
next chapter, which is unusual.
They usually don't break theaction up that way, but I do
think this is a way that maybethe original people that did the
canonization and put you knowthe original manuscripts didn't
have chapter and verses, if youdidn't know that, that's true.
And so I do wonder if they wantto say hey, I don't want you to
(16:20):
miss this.
This is an extension of thevirtual same conversation and I
won't say anything more there.
I'll get to that with whatamazes me, I think.
So verse one of John, chaptereight.
But John went to the Mount ofOlives, not John.
Let's go back.
This is going to be about Jesus.
Here we go.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
Oh, 11 minutes.
I didn't get there.
I'm like, oh, who are we?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
talking about.
But Jesus, there we go went tothe Mount of Olives.
At dawn he appeared again inthe temple courts, where all the
people gathered around him andhe sat down to teach them.
The teachers of the law and thePharisees brought in a woman
caught in adultery.
They made her stand before thegroup and said to Jesus teacher,
(16:56):
this woman was caught in theact of adultery In the law.
Moses commanded us to stonesuch women.
Now what do you say?
They were using this question asa trap in order to have a basis
for accusing him, but Jesusbent down and started to write
on the ground with his finger.
When they kept on questioninghim, he straightened up and said
to them Let any of you who iswithout sin be the first to
throw a stone at her.
(17:16):
Again, he stooped down andwrote on the ground.
At this, those who heard beganto go away, one at a time, the
older ones first, until onlyJesus was left with the woman
still standing there.
Jesus straightened up and askedher Woman where are they?
Has no one condemned you?
No one, sir.
She said.
Then neither do I condemn you.
(17:36):
Jesus declared Go now and leaveyour life of sin.
Okay, so after all that nowwe're at 13-minute mark or
whatever.
Yeah, what amazes you?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
I mean there's so much here I am just struck by.
Well, there's so many thingsthat amaze me about this
interaction, but what I'm drawnto is towards the end of this
passage and thinking about whatthis woman would have been going
through, what led her up to thepoint of committing adultery,
what sort of shame was shefeeling?
(18:09):
Are, and so like, obviously, um, if I was to go commit adultery
, I would feel lots of shame.
But even what I would feelabout it probably wouldn't fully
um, fully get to how she feels.
Um, and I mean there's so,there's so much here.
But I think about um to go from.
(18:31):
She makes this really awfulmistake and then she's used as
she's, she's singled out, she'sused as a prop um, she's
objectified and then, at the endof it, she's left alone with
the savior of the world offeringher mercy and and forgiveness
and grace.
And I I just think, um, thewhirlwind for that for her must
(18:53):
have just been so, so crazy tothink about.
Um, to think about.
If, tonight, let's just I wouldthink about somebody you know
who, like, maybe they're livinga life that you're like, man, I
don't think that's reallyhealthy for them to think about.
Tonight they're gonna make areally awful decision for
(19:13):
themselves, incredibly unhealthyand destructive for them and
for other people.
And then to think, but yeah,that's going to lead to
literally God, to that persongetting a moment alone with God.
That's just amazing.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
It is, it is and those social dynamics.
Sometimes that's hard for us.
That's why I think a lot ofpeople have enjoyed the Chosen,
because it at least gives oneperson, one writer's perspective
on.
Here are the social dynamicsseparating this, but I think it
is important to remember theBible did not have to be written
this way.
Jesus could have just it, couldhave just been the teaching and
(19:52):
dealing with your oxen, do this, and dealing with your neighbor
, do that, you know, likeLeviticus, you know.
But instead we have this mostlynarrative story of Jesus
interacting with real people.
So I do think it's significantand maybe that's self-evident,
but I certainly wouldn't raisethat way Every time I'd read a
story.
It's about what's the moralLike?
Speaker 1 (20:12):
basically, what are you doing wrong that you need to
stop is how I read the bible.
Yeah, you know, what's soincredible to me about this is
like jesus addresses the dangerthat she's in both, like both
literal, physical danger ofpossible death, and then the
religious and cultural dangershe's in um, but like if jesus
was just gonna like, jesusdoesn't.
What's so, what's so incredibleabout it is is the pharisee
(20:34):
they want to use this woman as aprop and jesus very easily
could use woman as a prop, andJesus very easily could use her
as a prop if he wanted to, andhe could turn around and he
could be like and use her, likepick her up and use her as a
sermon, you know, as a sermonprop, to then go and expound
upon this.
But the meat of what, whenJesus of G, when, when Jesus is
directly dealing um with her andwhat is going on in her heart
(20:59):
and her life, Um, it'sone-on-one Um and that that is
so, so dignifying Um.
Because man, if there wasanybody like collectively that
that he, Jesus, would have likegotten a pass for, uh,
dehumanizing, it would have beenthis woman, because once she
was a woman so she didn't matteras much.
Like, again, very common topoint out.
Where's the guy that alsocommitted adultery?
(21:19):
What you know, what's going onwith him, Didn't matter to the
Pharisees.
It was the woman, because youknow, she was basically the
ideal prop to try to use him.
Use as a trap.
And Jesus does not just freethis woman, does not just save
(21:43):
her life, but he also justcompletely obliterates the
notion that God is okay with onetreating women this way and
also just treating human beingsas anything less than the
dignified image bearers thatthey are.
They are.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
Yeah, this is one of those.
It's like when he touches theleper and he doesn't need to, he
just could have healed him.
It's him saying this isn't justhey, I came to heal, job done.
You know, this is a realconnection and it's a tremendous
teaching tool on, not that youwould do this specific word, but
the spirit of helping people.
(22:21):
I think what amazes me is andI'm thinking of myself from
Jesus' perspective instead offrom the woman's perspective for
this point but I'll take asimple thing like opening the
door for someone.
When I open the door forsomeone to get in, so that's an
expression of grace, um, throughkindness, I'm being kind of
open the door.
(22:42):
If they say thank you, thenit's like it's been
transactional I did for them,they did for me, we're all good.
Or if they're like, oh, you'revery kind.
Oh no, don't mention it, youknow.
But if they walk through andthey say nothing, then I make a
judgment.
They're.
If they were to smack me whileI was doing it, I would be like
that is ridiculous.
And if they were to shove me tothe ground and beat on me, I'm
(23:04):
like there must be a judgment.
Or let's say the verbal theyjust who do you think you think
you're better than me?
Open the door, that kind ofthing.
Jesus just spent the day the daybefore dealing with, I presume,
these same Pharisees.
These are the same Phariseesthat sent guards to arrest him
and it wasn't successful.
(23:24):
And to me this is.
It makes more sense, and I'llelaborate in a second.
If this is premeditated, itmakes a little bit more sense to
me, although I completelyaccept that it wasn't
premeditated.
They encountered this lady.
It became evident, oh, shecommitted adultery and they took
her to him.
But the fact that he chose toshow kindness to the Pharisees
(23:48):
and show them and allow themwith dignity, where he could
have easily said you carenothing about this woman because
you care nothing about God, Imean, this has been the perfect
time to unload on these guys andhe gives them a dignified way
to walk away, that's stunning,that level of self-control, that
he's not seething with angerover what happened the day
(24:09):
before, and now it's even goinglower.
It's one thing for them to comewith power and say we're in
charge, the guards are here.
It's another thing to take acompletely vulnerable person and
be manipulative.
Oh, a hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (24:21):
And you think about if Jesus had used an opportunity
to rightfully rip into themwith this woman at his side,
like what does that mean forthat woman's future?
Where it's like, hey, not onlydoes the whole, like everyone
around, know that she committedadultery, but also she's now
wrapped up with this rabbi,fellow Jesus, who's a
revolutionary, who's going toget us all killed, and then, for
(24:42):
all we know, she becomes even afurther object of anger from
the Pharisees or from thereligious elite.
Speaker 2 (24:49):
And, yeah, the discipline and just the care
that Jesus uses in the scenario,it's just mind boggling it is,
and you know, tim Rush is thefirst one I heard suggest that
when it says was this woman wascaught in adultery, so that's
past tense.
Is it likely in this smallcommunity that she had been
(25:10):
wearing, actually, that scarletletter for a long time, you know
?
And so she became known and thePharisees who the day before
tried to solve the Jesus problemwith the guards, are now saying
, okay, we need to find anotherway to solve it.
Ooh, get that woman.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
And we bring her up and to me, I mean it matters to
her.
But to me, if she had justcommitted adultery and this was
fresh and let's say it was thefirst time she committed
adultery, that is awful.
If adultery and this was freshand let's say it was the first
time she committed adultery,that is awful.
If she committed adultery awhile ago and now was ostracized
and she was dragged in kind oflike the woman at the well felt,
you know, I mean either way,the offense of them treating her
(25:47):
, like you were saying, as as aprop, so offensive.
And then, and this can easilyget to, what perplexes me is how
do I not make people how do I?
not make the last as a minister,the last conversation that I
had with a person, that thatperson's story then becomes a
prop for a moral of the story,absolutely you know that that is
that is really difficult.
Speaker 1 (26:07):
I do think um, there is a, whether it was adultery
committed in the past or thenight before, um, I it is.
It is worth pointing out that,again, this is happening at the
end of a big, long festival, soI don't mean to get too mature.
I would have to imagine therewas other adulterers in that
(26:31):
crowd, as one of the massivefestivals that takes place
around Jerusalem, there wouldhave been people traveling in
and out.
And generally speaking, evenwhen really religious people
party and drink, usually thatdoesn't lead to the best
outcomes, and so the fact thatthis woman gets singled out and
I begin to wonder, like whetherit was in the past or if it was
(26:52):
the night, of what that wouldmean to anybody else.
the night before that hadexperienced that had also sinned
or not even committed adultery,but drank too much and then
went home and did something,whatever it would be, I just
think for the people that wouldhear about this or witness it I
love the idea of it happening along time ago and then the
(27:16):
people that knew about her andthen hearing about it for the
first time, or if it happenedthe night before, and the person
that thinks, wow, I just gotscot-free because I heard the
five tenths over.
That woman was caught inadultery and the Pharisees
yanked her away, and now she'sdealing with this and little do
they know.
Five tenths over, I'm alsocommitting adultery.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
Right, but then also it's like when somebody gets
pulled over, yeah.
That's in front of you Like oh,I was also speeding.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And you think about what it would have meant for
them.
And then later on, I'm soexcited to get into what Jesus
will then say about, um, we'llthen say, and how this would
have connected to all all thesesorts of people.
Um, I do.
It is important to remindourselves, like there was
probably somebody in that crowdwho did commit adultery and, in
their mind, got away with it andthen maybe they just kept going
(28:03):
committing adultery.
Yeah, and the grace.
It is better for this woman,ultimately, that she was caught
in her adultery and got to meetJesus, to meet Jesus.
And so, like again, we had aprevious conversation before we
started recording about notwanting to go through pain or
not wanting to go through aheartache, but how it's usually,
(28:23):
the most can be the mosttransformational time of our
lives in terms of growing closerto God.
And now you were speaking morein terms of tragedy happening to
us.
But even being caught in oursin, or even being caught in our
own you know, in our ownmistakes, can be a grace.
And again, when that isn'thappening to you that can seem
like good news, but in themoment, that could not have felt
(28:46):
like good news, but I think itis important to point out that
this woman met literal God andexperienced a personal touch of
forgiveness and grace and mercy,because she was caught and yeah
, I don't know what to do withit, but it's true.
Speaker 2 (29:07):
Yeah, One of the things I know, if something is a
good movie, especially if Idon't anticipate 12 sequels
coming for it is oh man, I wantto know what happened to him a
year from now, two years fromnow.
This is a lady I want to sitwith 10 years later and say, hey
, what happened?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
What happened.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
You know, I'm just so curious because it does feel
almost a little negligent.
And usually, I think, in thepast, when we process the
scripture, my perplexion is whydoes Jesus leave her so
vulnerable?
Because if it's just happened,now she's got to deal with this.
I would think he'd be like, hey, go and send them more and find
a 12 step or something you knowkind of thing.
I'm not going to go thatdirection with that now.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Or you'd be like hey, martha, you want to like
disciple her for a while.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
Yes, exactly right.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
Actually, here's a great entry step.
We'll start our intern processhere of really getting you know.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Exactly right.
Yeah, come follow me when Icircle back to this place.
Some kind of security, and thenthat just shows Jesus entrusted
these people with God.
You know, even his leaving ofthe apostles as big of that as
there's this plan he's going tocall apostles, going to leave
these apostles they're plan A toshare his word how threatening
(30:18):
that would feel, you know it'sjust.
Yeah, it's perplexing.
How to know how he felt safe,leaving people unprotected,
absolutely.
You know that's perplexing.
But the thing I want to reallykey on I want to be really
perplexed.
Yeah, that's, in this moment,perplexing me is he trusts God
with the response of the badguys in the story.
(30:42):
Then he's next level with this,like, if you imagine, all right
, connor, I wrote someguidelines on how to confront
people that are going to murdersomebody else.
And you're like, okay, tell memore.
And I'm like first, say nothing.
You're like now what?
Yeah, they're going to makethese accusations and they don't
stop, like we have these smallquestions, but it says they keep
questioning.
So you're going to bend downand write in the dirt.
(31:05):
What am I writing in the dirt?
Speaker 1 (31:06):
I'm like I'm not going to tell you it doesn't
matter, I'm not going to tellyou.
Speaker 2 (31:09):
So you write in the dirt, I get it.
You're basically saying Iacknowledge that she deserves
this.
So what we're going to do iswe're going to vet the
participant.
If you don't have sin, then youcan stone her and then they go
away slowly and then you justbend down, like what happens
(31:30):
when they throw the stones,because I don't trust people
enough not to throw the stones,especially if they're already
setting up this, this girl, thislady, in such an evil way and
he entrusts conviction of the,of the spirit, I suppose, on
these men's hearts to not stoneher.
These are the same people thatin other settings, will try to
(31:51):
stone him, yes, and eventuallywill stone.
Not the same individuals, maybe, but the same type of who will
stone.
Not the same individuals, maybe, but the same type of person
who will stone Stephen to deathor stone Paul, thinking they're
stoning him to death.
And I'm like I am so perplexed.
How would you trust these guys?
And these are Bible-studying,monotheistic guys, but they
clearly weren't loving and theydon't care for her because of
what you said the prop.
(32:12):
That's mind-blowing to me.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, no, that is fascinating, that's mind-blowing
to me.
Yeah, no, that is, that is.
It is fascinating and thinkabout what jesus, how, how, what
, what were the possibilities inthe mind of jesus of how could
this go?
Did, did he have a, a knowledgethat it would play out exactly
how it played out?
Or was it one of manypossibilities where, like he
knew, oh, like, if I say that,like, say this, it might cause
(32:35):
one person to stone and then,because one person through the
first stone, it's a lot easierfor people to join in afterwards
and then, um, is it is, is the?
Is the next version?
Is the possibility that jesus islike, oh, like, I'll heal her,
whatever, you know, whatever, oris it like right, yeah, I've
forgiven her, I've given her, I,I like, I know, I'm going to
give this woman mercy, like ifshe, if she was, if, uh, like I
know, I'm going to give thiswoman mercy, like if she, if she
(32:56):
was, if, uh, like I know, I'mgoing to give her mercy.
Um and so, if she dies now,okay, you know, like I, I, I
trust the father with that.
Thinking about through thepossibilities of how, of how
this would play out, is so, isso perplexing because in my mind
I just watched a hostagehostage movie recently.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
so this is fresh on my mind.
It's kind of like a hostilesituation where, like you feel
like you need to get like.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Every word has to be completely measured because, as
as they're seeking a way andthere's some people that think
that, like they had no intentionof stoning this woman here- now
there's some people who believethat um I don't, I don't know
whether that's, whether that'strue or not.
Um, certainly they're ready topounce on any mistake he made or
, you know, any mistake she madebecause of him.
(33:41):
In that moment, I find myselfperplexed by.
I am also perplexed.
I am also perplexed by whatyou're talking about where, like
, every word that Jesus issaying here is so weighty and is
and somebody's life is in thebalance and I guess this is true
(34:03):
for all the life of Jesus where, like his words, all of our
lives are in the balance, butwhen it's actually, when a life
is, life is potentially,potentially imminently going to
be over, based on the responseof people to his words, like how
, how, yeah, how he's, how he's.
So I don't say cavalier about it, um, and maybe it is cavalier,
(34:27):
like, how, like, and for all weknow, jesus could have said
these things like we read it andit's kind of like in this, in
this easy, calm, calm manner.
And maybe it wasn't, maybe itwas more, you know, maybe he
said it in in clipped ways ormaybe, you know, maybe he had
classic hostage negotiator right, uh, after he bent down and
stood up.
Maybe it was kind of like akeeping the.
(34:47):
Yeah, I just saw watch your atthe jurassic world again.
Not a good movie, doesn't holdup.
But we're like you know, the.
The classic thing in the newjurassic world is where the
whole they'll put their arm outto hold out the raptor and it
just keeps happening, or maybe?
maybe, maybe there's some ofthat, maybe there's some body
language here that he's trained.
Speaker 2 (35:03):
We don't know.
Well, there's also the mysteryyeah, if he's writing down and
that's this makes sense if he'swriting down the list, yeah,
well, let's say you and I arethere and uh, and he says, what
he's writing in the dirt isconnor and then a list of your
sins, sure yeah, and it was likereally penetrating.
And true, jason.
Here's a list of jason.
Since then, all of a sudden I'mlike, well, that makes sense.
(35:23):
I do think it's fascinatingagain, the bible doesn't record
a ton of stuff that would befascinating to know.
Why record that he writes twicein the dirt and not tell us
what he writes?
That's another thing that'slike hugely, you know oh, that's
just perplexing.
Speaker 1 (35:40):
That's 100 my perplexion it always has been
and it's funny because there arethings you know.
I've heard the explanation ofhim writing their sins, but
again, like, maybe, maybe not,although I do think, man, that
could probably cause somebody tolike throw a stone earlier
because, like, if it's true ifit's like, oh, jason, we're
writing out his sins.
Like I'm gonna look at jasonand be like, oh, some of that's
true, whatever.
Then he starts to write connorand like if I'm like worried
(36:03):
about my reputation just goingto be like if somebody throws a
stone out there, maybe he won'twrite my sins.
Speaker 2 (36:08):
Maybe, maybe not, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
But yeah, no, I think there are a lot of times in
Scripture where we'll havemystery around a situation and
you can kind of dance around andplay with it, but this is just
fundamentally one of thosethings where it's like this is
between Jesus, the woman and thePharisees, and it's like that.
There is something like that inscripture where God's like you
don't need to know about thatYou're good, you're good, and so
(36:34):
, again, I could choose to beamazed by it in this moment and
be like, is it a way of honoringthe Pharisees?
And if it is something like hewrote the sins of what they were
doing, or I've heard he waswriting out different laws of
the old testament, or you know,whatever would be.
Um, if it was somethingintimate, like maybe, if that
would maybe lead me to believeit was something intimate
(36:55):
between just the pharisees andjesus and the woman caught in
adultery, like, is that a way ofhim?
also not using them as a prop.
I don't, I don't know, yeah,but but it's so much still so
perplexing, because if it was hewrote, if he was quoting the
Old Testament, then it's likethat'd be good to know.
I feel like that'd be helpfulto know, right, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Yeah, in terms of application it is challenging.
I do want to amplify this onepoint, which probably would fit
into amazement.
If you're ever trying to helpsomebody, like you see somebody
in need and you're in a positionwhere you can help them, the
question that always crossesyour mind is how much is enough?
You know, from the simple, Ihave a dollar that I can give
(37:36):
them, but I can also give themthis hundred dollar bill to.
I listen to them, but I knowthey have a world of problems
and they're going to needintensive counseling and
discipleship for years and yearsand years.
And that's always possible.
It's always possible that Godwill lead you to do it.
But I'm so impressed with Jesusgiving her what she needed and
(37:57):
not taking responsibility forher faith, not taking
responsibility for her journey.
And we have no idea had Jesustalked to her 10 times, for this
, the first time he's meetingher.
Will he see her 12 times after?
We don't know, but there's norecord in the New Testament of
him ever seeing this woman, andwe touched on it in the sense of
we feel like he should give hermore structure.
But Jesus' confidence that whatGod had led him to do was what
(38:20):
was needed to do is a confidencewe can have.
I was with somebody earlier.
I talked to that person.
I'm saying real time.
She was in some crisis.
I talked to her.
I have all this stuff in me thatsays I need to do more, I need
to do more, I need to do more,and that may be true, but it
also may be true that I did whatI need to do.
(38:41):
And the key here is I just keepasking God, and if God gives me
the opportunity to do more, Ishould do it.
But if he doesn't, then Ishouldn't do it and feel just as
good, because I do not take onthe salvation of anybody else.
I have my salvation to tend toand then I have blessing to give
from that security.
But the devil loves to take agood situation and turn it evil
(39:05):
by saying you're responsible forthis person.
And I would just say to theperson out there that's trying
to help the woman caught inadultery in their life I would
want them to take a signal fromJesus.
Do what you can, offer it toGod and then, if God gives you
another opportunity, act and ifnot, feel totally at peace.
Speaker 1 (39:20):
You know, maybe this is simple and maybe this is a
duh sort of statement for um,for the listener or even maybe
for us, like if we thought aboutit for more than five seconds.
But I do wonder and it's thiscircumstance, when we're like
man, why does Jesus not feelcompelled to do more, Like if
what we can have confidence in,whether it's the person we meet
(39:41):
with or somebody who asks formoney or whatever the situation
would be how do we trust thatwe've done enough or whatever?
So, ultimately, we trust Godand ultimately it's what we
trust in, in Jesus life, deathand resurrection.
And like does Jesus.
Is that how Jesus operates too,when he's like he thinks about
what this woman could go throughand all the things that she's
going to need, and he's likelisten, I gave.
(40:02):
In the moment when she was withme, I gave her exactly what we
need and and also I know, I knowwhere, where my life is going,
and I ultimately know I am goingto offer her what she needs
fundamentally no-transcript.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Whether this is the most substantiated story or not,
it is certainly a story Iprobably touch on consciously
and subconsciously all the time,as an example of Jesus entering
real pain and real trauma andreal deception and real
injustice which we're notrunning out of injustice in the
world, sadly, you know but tothink, hey, this is how he
(40:51):
stayed sane.
He trusted God, the middle love, the people in front of them,
both the accuser and the accusedman.
That's a great thing for me tojust take in today, yeah that is
that is so helpful and it's agood reminder.
Speaker 1 (41:03):
Whether it's you personally, personally, or
somebody you know in your lifewho is doing active, actively
destroying their life or makingjust horrific decisions for
themselves and others, for allyou know, they could be 12 hours
away from literally being inthe presence of God and, again,
(41:24):
very painful experience.
Wouldn't wish this on somebody,but that can give me hope that
we never know when exactly Godis going to show up in a massive
way.
But it's also comforting toknow, just because we don't know
, the exact moment or time wherethat might take place.
It also means, for all I know,two seconds from now I could
(41:45):
feel God more strongly isn't theright word.
I could feel his presence morethan I've ever felt it before.
Two seconds from now, and, yeah, that's just a reality of being
human and that's something Iwant to hold on to Grace, peace
and love.
Thank you.
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