On this episode-Jeff Townsend talks to journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee from the Murder Sheet Podcast. The team explains the latest updates in the Delphi Murders case. Including the newly released court documents covering Richard Allen's confessions and the cause of death was revealed.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
What's she gonna do? Brother?When Jeff Townsend Media runs wild on you.
(00:25):
I'm super excited to chat with mygood friends today. Man, it's
been a while and we got tostop coming together on something such a tragic
thing. But I am really happyto see you guys. I'm talking about
the amazing Annia Cane and the manlyKevin Brainley. He's got a full beard
now, you know, you,guys, this is a this is an
(00:45):
audio only podcast at this point intime. But still though, last time
I talked to Kevin he was aclean shape fella. I've been seeing him
all over the place with his beardnow and I must say I'm impressed.
Thank you, Thank you guys bothfor taking the time to do this.
You have busy schedule You've got.I don't know what you've done so far
today. You've got a quart TVappearance later, which you frequently do,
which I said, I'm a bigfan of Google that. By the way,
(01:07):
YouTube at whatever you want to say. Court TV has a really good
presence on YouTube, so you cancatch up on some of the stuff you
guys talk about there with them,and to follow it up tonight, you're
going to hang out with our goodfriends at the Prosecutor's podcast on YouTube later.
So I appreciate again, I appreciateyou taking the time out of your
busy, hectic schedule to do this. Well, we so appreciate you having
us. Jeff. We alwayd lovetalking to you about this case and really
(01:30):
anything. We really enjoy your interviewsand so we're super happy to be here.
Thank you. Like I said,it's unfortunate we had to come together
on something like this, but youguys are always very supportive of If I
always say it affiliate of Jeff TownsendMedia, you know, I've got you
on my website host one of yourwebsites, So I mean it's I consider
you guys good good friends at thispoint, so thank you so anytime we
(01:52):
can say to you a good friendtoo. This podcast has actually kind of
gone through a little bit of arebrand to more of America Stories, but
I have a couple of friends thatare helping me out with it. But
the core audiences Indiana and we spokewith you guys last year. It was
kind of surprising to hear about howmany people didn't really know about this case.
(02:13):
They have this national case, butto me that was proof that there's
still people out there that hadn't heardabout it. So it was great.
They absolutely loved you and they supportyour podcast now a lot of them so,
but more importantly, they're following thecase. So yeah, again,
if you haven't checked out, youguys checked out the work of Kevin Ananya.
It's some murder sheet and they coverall sorts of different things, but
(02:35):
really have become the I don't wantto stereotype, but but you're affiliated with
this Delphi case quite a bit now. So and you guys do a lot
of other you know, with aburger chef murders, you have so much
other experience, but the Delphi caseis definitely something you guys have covered a
lot. So we're going to catchup today. Last time we talked,
we really just left off on theprobable cause Alfa, David, that was
(02:58):
wow. I don't know is thatsix more than six months ago? Now
eight months ago, nine months ago? A lot's happened since then, But
today news broke we'll get to that. Admitted just playing catchup. What's really
happened in the last several months that'scaught your guys attention. I know that
the recent thing has been Richard Allenand his defense kind of throwing it out
(03:19):
there that the unfair conditions at thefacility he's been kept at until the trial.
What else would you think would beimportant to mention before we go into
these details, like what else haveyou thought of? It would be significant
if somebody hadn't maybe heard any updates. I think the biggest thing for me,
at least is at the June fifteen, twenty twenty three hearing for due
(03:42):
process, the defense sort of revealeda bombshell, which was that there are
incriminating statements that were met by RichardAllen. They were trying to get ahead
of it basically sand listen, thisisn't as bad as it sounds. Prosecution
was then hammering on it and revealingmore detail that there were five to six
incriminating statements. Nick mcclell and theprosecutor referred to them as confessions. So
(04:06):
I think that's the biggest thing tocome out because that's essentially like new possible
evidence in the case, whether ornot, you know, it could turn
out to be incoherent and not supercompelling, or could turn out to be
quite compelling. We don't know what, but something that both sides are gonna
have to content. Yeah, upuntil today, as of today, what's
(04:28):
the day today, twenty eighth ofJune. We really had just until that,
we had just been hearing basically thecoordinate's going to be this day.
The defense once talked it was minimalstuff right then, So this is starting
to make sense. A couple ofweeks ago we heard about the defense saying
this incriminating evidence, So this iskind of making sense now. Like you
said, they were getting ahead ofwhat was announced today, plenty of court
(04:51):
documents unsealed. I guess you couldsay, bring some things the light in
one of those, which and wecan get into details here, but one
of the things that I lighted wasthe fact that Richard Allen has made five
to six confessions on I don't knowsome of them were via phone to his
family and other things. But thenagain, and I'll let you guys take
(05:13):
over. After this several months,we kind of and this sounds like the
seed was planted that Richard Allen rightor wrong. I'm not saying it that
maybe having some mental issues may bedeteriorated mentally. That has been planted since
several months early part of the yearand now it's starting to kind of make
everything deluded in this gray area withthese confessions that came out today. But
(05:33):
I'll let both that you take overnow and kind of explain what came out
today. I explained the general stuff. I've explained the general stuff since the
last several months. Most of thefilings in this case have been tapped confidential,
and it hasn't been clear why they'vebeen kept confidential, because generally speaking,
(05:54):
neither the defense nor the prosecutor hasasked for that level of secrecy for
every single filing. And so wedecided that wasn't appropriate, and we felt
to the level of secrecy was harmingthe case and inspiring a lot of conspiracy
theories belike. So we actually filedinto the case and asked Judge Gull to
(06:16):
release all of the documents that couldbe released, and basically that's what happened
day and early this afternoon, overa hundred documents that were previously sealed were
open. Yeah, and we assumedthat there would be only a handful,
and we didn't think there would bethat many, But it sounds like she
did a very intensive review based onour filing, and you know, she's
(06:39):
looking at this. She's a formerprosecutor and has a recutation for being a
very meticulous judge, So she's notjust releasing everything. She's looking and seeing
what should be released, what shouldnot be released, what would be released
in a typical case, you know, what are all the pros and cons
and what does the law say aftermaking those determinations. She released them today
(06:59):
and of the you know, theygive us a lot of insight on a
lot of different aspects of the Keithsthat were in the Jark. But one
thing, we got more information onthe actual confessions and also the timeline between
you know, the confessions and thesort of mental deterioration, because those seem
to be intricately connected on you know, and that's something that actually both sides
(07:21):
of the aisle sort of acknowledge here. Yeah, going back to the confessions,
and I used the term plead sayingthe seed was planted kind of makes
it seem like I'm saying something meanby saying that, But what I'm really
saying is, so the first confessionthat they're talking about here, but what
day did they go back to?April? Yeah, they said that the
first confession actually happened on April third, and they said this was in a
(07:46):
phone call between Alan and his wife, and that during the course of this
conversation, Richard Allen confessed to thecrime several times, and eventually Kathy Allan
and got so upset she into thecall fruptly. And then what's interesting is
that it was a couple of daysafter that that the defense filed their motion
(08:09):
saying, well, guess what,we think something's going on with him the
last couple of days he's been actingas if his mental condition has deteriorated.
And oddly enough, they also singabout April third is a day when he
started acting irrationally. And I'll I'llsay this, like, I think I
could see two sides to it.I think if you're made being more favorable
(08:31):
towards the prosecution, you're like,Okay, that's awfully convenient. He's fine.
Then he you know, confesses,and then he loses his mind,
like like that's a bit convenient.At the same time, if you're on
the defensive side, you're saying,you know, his mental deterioration caused the
confession, so it makes sense thatit's linked. So it's kind of you're
seeing those two kind of camps.You view it in different ways, but
(08:54):
basically, prosecution is saying he confessedand is acting bizarrely because he feels and
reckoning with that, and the defenseis saying this is an innocent man is
unraveling. Yeah, absolutely, Icould definitely see both arguments. But for
me, I guess my point was, there's no coincidence that these things were
mentioned when they were. I don'tI'm not thinking. I mean, it
(09:16):
seems like everything's matching up here rightor wrong to where it is. And
we'll talk about some of the otherconfessions to let you guys mention if we
have any other information on that.But how does this hold up? Do
you think when we're presenting this asa case, presenting this in court?
That's a really good question. Idon't know if I have a strong opinion
either way about it being strong ora weak case. There seems to be
(09:39):
a lot to una here, andI would say that like there's going to
be a lot that gets determined inthe pre trial hearings and the pre trial
motions, because that's going to determinethe rules, the boundaries, what evidence
can be admitted, what evidence willget tough out, and that could really
shape how strong of the case orhow weak of the case it ultimately he
(10:00):
is. But if you are McClelandat this point and you're saying, we
have some confessions he pleases himself atthe scene, and we feel that ballistics
evidence strongly links him to the scene, then you know, you're probably feeling
pretty good about that. At thesame time, of the defense is a
lot of avenues to chip away atthat. They can contest ballistics evidence,
(10:20):
say that's not reliable. They cantry to get the gun thrown out.
You know, they have issues ofsearch warrant. So there's still a lot
of avenues for the defense to takeif they are, you know, trying
to be strategic and look at alltheir options. And I think it's also
important to note that we haven't actuallyheard or read the actual content of these
(10:41):
so called confessions, and both theprosecution and the defense characterize them differently.
Zania said. The prosecutor repeatedly referredthem as confessions. On the other hand,
defense attorney Brad Rosie said, well, that makes it sound like he
was being interrogated or something and thenbroke down and suddenly started telling everyone the
(11:01):
same story. And Rosie said that'snot what it is. He's just saying
things that are basically incoherent and they'renot consistent. And if that's the case,
people might find that less convincing,and it also goes back to his
mental state at the time he madethese statements. Another one of the documents
(11:22):
that was released today, for instance, was a letter from another inmate at
Westville who resides near where Richard Allenis, and according to this inmate,
people are yelling at Richard Allen alot, calling him a kid killer,
saying he should kill himself. I'msure the defense would say treatment like that
would really affect the curson. I'lljust jump in with one more thing though,
(11:46):
from the prosecution's perspective, a lotof people assume the confessions happened in
like a jailhouse snitch scenario, orlike to a guard or to a law
enforcement officer, and those would allsome concerns around. You know, a
coercion manipulation outright lies on the partof a snitch that might be trying to
(12:07):
cut a deal. Yeah, getbenefit from their Yeah, I get their
sentence his reduced up. Then,yeah, you know, like that's a
that's a thing that happens, it'svery dubious and unfortunate. But in this
case, I think being recorded andbeing unprompted. I don't believe his wife
is interrogating him on the phone,you know, doing gotcha questions. I
(12:28):
don't think that's the context here.So that seems problematic for the defense because
it's like that's a maybe the onesafe place for Richard Allen, a nice
conversation with his wife. Kathy stoodby him and has gone to all these
hearings for him. So I thinkthat is a bit of a problem that
they need to explain by saying,here is the mental deterioration that we're seeing.
(12:50):
It's part of that. Maybe he'strying to put a distance between them.
I don't know, but if notthat he actually killed anyone, it's
just this mental issue. The defensehas no choice but to react, right,
I mean, this is another hurdlefor them. It seemed like before
and we don't know everything yet,but it seemed like before, hey,
what this bullet is questionable. Nowthis kind of throw is something else at
(13:11):
him. They had to react oneway or another, and it seemed like
that's exactly what they're doing doing theirjob. I guess you could say,
yeah, do we know anything elseabout? Then we'll move on. But
do we know anything else about anyof the other confessions we have the inmate,
we have the recorded phone calls thatthere's like five or six different instances
that were brought up, but theydidn't go in specifics. Do we know
(13:31):
of anything else? There's a referencein one of these documents saying that he
confessed over the phone five or sixtimes in calls to life and was bother
So that's where the five or sixtimes came out in relationship, Like,
we don't know if that's five orsix phone calls or five or six times
(13:52):
in one pe good point, act, that's a really good point. Do
you got to mention that, Yeah, that's solid because it's one phone call
or that'll all make a difference.But it's all going to make it more
challenging for the defense. I mean, it's going to other things in this
that were strange. I remember readingsomething about eating paper. He was stuffing
(14:13):
court documents down his eating paper orsomething or my correct there. Yeah,
that's that's one hundred percent accurate,the prosecution said. After Richard Allen made
these alleged fashions to his wife,and she ended up hanging up the call
on him. His mental condition beganto almost immediately interiorate. He stopped wanting
(14:37):
to sleep, stopped wating to eat, he stopped he Previously he'd been making
a couple of phone calls a day. Suddenly he's going in weeks without making
any phone calls. And another behaviorprosecution mentioned in this document was, as
you said, he was literally eatingthe paper that has had his legal work
on it. And maybe that alsoplays into at different times the defense has
(15:01):
that've been saying they're not giving himour paperwork. It made me the reason
they're not giving it to him looksbig because he was Siblman fair point.
He definitely physically has been You've seensome change in Richard Allen physically lost a
lot of weight, doesn't look likein the best of health, which is
not uncommon when you see somebody incarcerated. I don't want to draw a direct
(15:22):
comparisonbody, at least to think ofthe Golden State killer Joseph de'angelo. Right
when he first brought him in,he was out working in his yard,
and then with a matter of acouple months, you see this fragile old
man what appeared to be. SoI have no doubt the conditions there are
not perfect, but there really doesn'tseem to be. I mean, that's
(15:43):
nothing's going to change as far asthat gears. It doesn't seem where he's
being housed. Yeah, that's athat's a really good point, and it
kind of reflects the prosecution's contention thatlike anywhere he's gonna be, he's going
to be isolated. He's going tohave to be isolated for his safety,
and there's not going to be anyother options that are as spacious or did
(16:04):
that are you know, more spaciousin a significant way or significantly better conditions
They even you know, said that, you know, Cass County Jail where
the defense wants and they don't havelike full time mental health stop. So
there's like a lot of back andforth. I mean, the defense contends
though that that's not the only issues. They're also noting correctly that west Fill's
quite far away for both of them, and it's better for Alan if his
(16:27):
attorneys can get to him quicking withouthaving to drive many miles and you know,
go through all the security of aprison versus a jail. So it's
another one where you can kind ofsee both sides of it. But but
basically, the prosecution's like, you'renot going to get a better situation anywhere
else, and he cannot be aroundother inmates because they will him based on
(16:48):
what he's accused of doing. Isit common for in a case like this
for the individual to be housed inour prison before trial? Do we see
this often or is it normally discountyjail? We've asked around and it's pretty
unheard of. Um, you mighthave people transferred from one jail to another,
that's not unheard of. But asfar as like a you know,
as the defense is called a pretrial detainee being housed at the you know,
(17:14):
MCU, the most you know,intensively controlled area of Westville. Even
when prosecution witnesses were asked that atthe last hearing, you know, the
warden and other official prison noted thatthat they're not aware of another case of
that happening. So it's definitely thedefense is absolutely right to say that it's
very unusual. I bet it alsoraises the level of attention that the Westfield
(17:40):
facility is receiving it and managing aswell. Oh yeah, yeah, But
it's a controversial place. It's definitelyit's come under criticism for treatments of inmates.
We talked to a couple of peoplewho were incarcerated there. They were
in gen POP and for behavioral reasons, they were placed in the maximum Control
unit, and I mean they basicallysaid that, like, in their opinion,
(18:00):
he's not being treated worse necessarily,it's weird that he's there before trial,
but like that's just the experience therebecause you know, and they noted
that they would see people starting todeteriorate because you're alone and you're with your
thoughts. It takes a very strongperson deal with that. In first,
the prosecution would tell you that there'svery there's very good reason why he's not
(18:25):
at the Carol County Jailed because it'sa relatively small jail, they don't have
a big staff, and this issomebody who would be at a risk because
there's people in that community who arevery angry, understandably with anyone who's been
accused of killing those two girls.And they were argued, we just don't
(18:45):
have the manpower or the facilities tohave him here safely, and so therefore
it's important for him to be somewhereelse, somewhere where he could be protected,
and certainly, no matter what youthink of the living conditions last all,
that is certainly one of the fewplaces in the state where he is
safe. Another thing that a lotof people are taken away from this,
(19:07):
the documents that released today draw intothe conclusions of a cause of death.
Let you speak to that. Idon't remember what exactly in the filings got
into that, but I saw there'sa lot of news coverage around cause of
death, and it's just so disturbing, and my heart goes out right out
of the families because obviously, Ithink it's a good thing when more information
(19:30):
comes out about the case, especiallynow that there's a trial going forward and
the information is going to have tocome out import no matter what. So
having it come out, you know, establishing a situation where it can come
out just as it comes out,instead of, you know, all during
a trial, I think is abetter situation. But you know, right
now they're having you know, they'reseeing all these headlines and it's just calling
(19:52):
my knives and stuff. Yea awfultoo, Yeah, it really, it's
really it's horrifying, and it bringsyou, like what this girl right and
the reason I brought it up notto talk about what what it was necessarily,
but more importantly, and you addressedit was it best to throw that
out there, throwing information out therenow beforehand because it's never let mean,
(20:18):
no matter what this this coverage isgoing to be significant when when this trial
happens. Do you guys think it'slikely that if this will be mainstream televised
or what is your guys feelings onthat, Like, I don't know if
you've been able to investigate some experiencewith these judges and just what what's the
likelihood of that being possibility? Yeah, I've been doing a eat dive into
(20:41):
judge goals story for a seven featureepisodes. Um all you know with the
with the with the night and withthe cause of death. One thing that
I think also had shifted in isthat you know, I think it then
releasing that at this point is asign that like the feel like, yeah,
they got their guy. When whenthere was a bullet involved and they
(21:03):
didn't want the perpetrator to throw outa gun made sense to keep cause of
death things like that really quiet.But now that we're hurtling towards a trial,
it doesn't matter as much essentially,So it's like that shift in terms
of timing. But as far asthe you know, Judge Goal was one
of the pilot judges for Indiana's firstCameras in Courtrooms program pilot program, and
(21:26):
so we don't know any anyone whatwill happen for a fact, with anything,
given the number, given the amountof public interests here, given the
amount of media attention, and giventhe Judge Goal, um, you know,
is very innovative in terms of someof the pilot programs and some of
the things she's participated with. Ithink that they will probably end up allowing
(21:47):
camera coverage at the trial. Idon't think it's going to necessarily be allowed
to devolve into a media circus.I can see a situation where you know,
there's there's things that are in between, like cameras everywhere and no cameras
of if they can have a poolsystem, one camera, everyone gets the
footage. Judge Gull also will havea lot of discretion. You know,
(22:07):
I don't want these witnesses filmed.I don't want you know, the jury
can't be filmed obviously, you know, but she can kind of basically dictate
you know, different things that makesense for this trial. So cameras in
courtroom does not necessarily mean complete openness, which it shouldn't necessarily because aspects of
a court should not be televised.And the current situation is frankly frustrating because
(22:33):
there is such interest in the caseand it's not exactly easy to find out
what's happening at court because the courtroomis very small, and usually close to
half of the courtroom is understandably reservedfor family or potential witnesses, so there's
(22:53):
not a lot of seats and sobecause of this, the public has to
really rely on the perspectives of thehandful of journalists and we can't even hear
anything. Yeah, that's another thingis that the courtroom has a very bad
audio system. We last hearing,we were lucky enough to sit in the
front row because we got it veryvery early, and so we were able
(23:15):
to hear probably about ninety percent ofthe stuff that was said. But other
reporters who were there just a rowor two behind us told us they could
hear almost nothing. And that doesn'treally seem to be an acceptable situation for
a case where there is such publicinterest, because the public really has a
right to know what's happening in theirname. They need, they deserve to
know what's happening in this case,absolutely, maybe we'll have to invest something
(23:38):
into that, a little bit moreof an infrastructure wise. In the courtroom,
both have been very critical of lawenforcement in the state of Indiana police
to the lack of information that wasshared. Now, looking back at everything
and where we sit today, I'mgoing to ask you a really tough question
here do it. Do you standbehind what you were saying this whole time
(24:02):
or is your mind change at allknowing that we know today. I think
you guys have faced a lot ofYou guys have been big advocates of that
and faced a lot of difficulties becauseof that. But you guys have been
saying, hey, there's no information, get the information out. Now we're
here today. What are your thoughts? That's a great question, And I
think I have I am kind oflike two mindsets on it at this point,
(24:23):
and I'll let you know if Ilike shipped on it further. Either
way. I can understand definitely thingslike the bullet, because again, have
a bullet, it's going to potentiallylink to somebody if that gets out,
that leaks that, I mean,whoever has that gun is going to get
rid of it right like, andthen there's made no way to hide.
(24:45):
And so I think I can reallycommend them, you know. I know
there's a perception that there's been alot of Delphi leaks or Delphi thinks getting
out. But the people at whoinvestigated his keys kept that locked down.
I think that's impressive, and Ithink that really may work to their advantage
if they end up, you know, getting a conviction here and a jury
(25:07):
is convinced that Richard Allen is theperfect So I think keeping certain things private
is very important for a case.And also, you know, I understand
there's also the element of, likethere's a lot of like really disturbed people
out there who follow this case whoessentially like will call in bad tips and
they're they're too disturbed to realize thatthey're actually hurting, you know, the
(25:33):
case by basically tying up resources overnonsense, you know what I mean.
Like I'm not talking about like somebodywho's in good like I'm talking about like
big Foot, you know, likejust stupid stuff that's just wasting everyone time.
And so you want to be ableto kind of like write off certain
kind of crank calls quickly because youkeep back information. So I'm sympathetic to
(25:53):
that. I'm an anxious person bynature, so I feel like if I
were in a position of power ina case like this, I would,
But we want to hold it cutyou off here. You have held a
lot back. You guys have heardwhat Let's let's be honest. You guys
also have heard things, and youwent with high integrity and decided not to
share it. So that's what makesthis question. That's what makes that question
(26:17):
that much tougher. Right, Youguys actually were put in that position and
you didn't say anything either because youknew it was best not too So,
yeah, I know it's crazy.I didn't even think about it that way.
But it's like we either we werelike we had times were like you
need to say things, and thenlike we got in several we've gotten like
many situations where we were like,oh, but we cannot release this or
(26:41):
we can't release this in this wayor right now, and like, yeah,
I guess it forced us to bemore empathetic with the police in a
way. Um, I'll say onething, I think I think I think
some of the media strategy um whatwas released or how it was released,
I think it did fuel confusion.I think, you know, you've got
(27:03):
you've had a situation where people were, you know, understandably hanging on every
word released because there was so littleinformation that was good and so people would
almost like use their imaginations to connectthe gaps. And I think that's right,
and that's understandable human impulse. Thosepeople were trying their best. But
(27:23):
I think that's a bad situation toput republican and to put the media in.
Frankly, I think there probably wouldhave been a healthier balance here to
release some things or I don't know, I mean not necessarily specific pieces of
evidence, but just seem like alot of confusion was fueled by the informational
vacuum. But I think we canempathize, and I think we can say
(27:45):
that we feel that the people workingon this investigation here deeply about getting justice
for Abby and Libby. And thatdoesn't mean everything they do it is perfect
or you know anything. It's justI think the mode evations weren't It's like
conspiracy cover up, you know,Like, yeah, I disagree with the
level of secrecy. I understand whythere needs to be some secrecy, and
(28:08):
as you accurately play it out,there's a lot we've held back in the
past. There's a lot we continueto hold back because if we don't learn
harm the case. I think though, it's important to stress even though we
disagree with a lot of the decisionsthe police and law enforcement have made in
this, we do understand their decisionsand we respect their integrity, and we
(28:32):
don't for a moment think that theyare holding stuff back for conspiratorial reasons or
to cover up for their own mistakes. When they're making the decision to hold
something back, they honestly believe that'sthe case, and you or I may
disagree, but that's their honest Andalso, you can always release something later.
You can never No, that'll probablybe the toughest quote you guys have
(28:59):
tele of interview scheduled. That mightbe the toughest question that you get asked
to this whole thing. That reallywill make you That's why we won't talking
to you, Jeff, because you'reasking the hard questions and you like know
this, like you know this wholestory, so you ask cover questions and
anyone else, Yeah, but honestly, it's great though, because it's like
a good conversation and helps us byour position, and like you know,
(29:22):
I think it kind of helps peopleunderstand everything better because it's like the slow
rolling being for a lot of peopleand they're maybe not picking up every thread
along the way, but I feellike you're good at kind of knitting that
all together. Thank a couple morequestions and we'll get out here. It's
kind of tough, but this onewas brought to my attention quite a bit
on my website just being associated withyou guys. I will receive some stuff
(29:45):
every now and then comment about youguys, comment about the case whatever.
A lot of people are asking whythe hell are we still talking about Keegan
Klein. So for you guys,and like I've said before, I'll go
on the record to say this,you're cover Bridge. Whether it has anything
to do with the killings or not, it looks like it doesn't to me
(30:06):
as a father of three beautiful daughtersin this state of Indiana. Has been
meaningful to me and very eye openingabout the dangerous people that are in society.
So I'm getting emotional talking about it. So I thank you for that.
But people are still asking why whatis in it for you guys at
this point in time. You recentlyhad an interview, which was great,
(30:26):
you went to the jail itself,you spoke with him, But what is
it at this rate that keeps youguys in connection? I get he's kind
of seems at this point in timehe trusts you, and you've had to
work hard. You've had to workhard to form any sort of relationship.
Sounds silly, right to bridge anysort of gap, You guys have had
to work pretty dang hard because thisguy went from being rather upset with your
(30:51):
coverage to being really one of thefew people is going to talk to.
That's yeah, that's absolutely fair question. And I think we tend to approach
the case a little bit differently thansome people, and I think he can
be aggravating, But I think maybeif I explain that, people will understand
we like have an academic interest andthat means like we want to document everything.
(31:15):
So like you know, when wereleased Ron Logan that Davis, you
know, that wasn't us thinking it'sRon Logan, we got him. It
was us saying, okay, whatwere the what were the police in the
FBI doing in March of twenty seventeen, Like what were they focused on?
Num Let's discuss was that? Youknow, like what you know, what
(31:37):
was against him, what maybe wasfor him? How did this all happen?
Like the story um then is filledout by all those books. For
me, Hagan is part of thestory. UM. He was on the
radar very quickly in February twenty seventeen, and then he sort of loops back
around where he's being kind of lookedat again in twenty twenty. And whether
(32:00):
or not he ends up being inany way related, I think it's fair
to say that unfortunately, like Abbyand Libby's deaths led to the uncovering of
what he was doing, and youknow, how it all fits together not
clear yet, But to me it'sinteresting what basically these deaths did, the
(32:21):
ripple effects that they had in termsof the wider investigation and what turns it
went down before coming to rest onhow So to me, he's still part
of the story. A lot ofpeople go into it more as like who
can we land for this, orlike who's the killer? And like I
get that, because I mean that'skind of what you expect in true crime.
(32:43):
It's like, let's figure this out, and we just have a different
idea about what figuring it out meansto us. It also means those kind
of loose ends that maybe you're alittle bit messier. And also what you
said about I mean, I didn'trealize like the level of Cee Sam that
like happens everywhere and what a nightmarethis is. So we also just kind
(33:04):
of got really into like talking toexperts about that topic because we just want
to like do some public service journalismand let people know about like this is
a thing you got to protect yourkids, Like, we got to talk
about this. So that's that's notlike We've talked to a lot of people
who also like were you know,new or we're in relationships with child predators
who like had their lives destroyed bythat and like the guilt they feel and
(33:25):
like how they overcome that. Sojust kind of became an interesting avenue to
explore. That's a that's a greatanswer, but and it also has to
go back to for me, theinterest and the passion of this instance is
it's local to us. How muchdo you think that plays in do you
guess, Yeah, that's huge,It's just kind of like, you know,
I mean, I'm I'm from NewYork, so I kind of like,
(33:49):
I think coming into Indiana's you know, like oh, it's like so
nights and kind of like you know, chill, and you know, we
don't we all know this, butlike it's worth standing. Bad things happen
everywhere, and like some time,even if it's like a really nice,
cute, how wonderful people in it, there can be someone doing something really
bad and it's worth talking about.And at the same time, you know,
I think being reported on Kagan's story, we reported on like the you
(34:13):
know, the fact that the Delphiinvestigation was very interested in him at one
time, and I felt like wealso need to you know, he needs
to have a One thing we've beenasking for him for a while is like,
hey, talk to us, liketell your side of it. Like
you know, we're you know,we're not gonna accuse you being involved.
You know, we want you tobe able to speak your piece, and
so having an interview with him,hopefully was an opportunity for him to have
(34:36):
his say, or at least say, here's my side of the story.
I think one thing about doing somethingthat's more or less love call is it
basically gives us the opportunity to goto the communities on the really get people
will see us there and they realize, oh, they just don't just come
here for court. They're interested,they're interested knowing what it's like here,
(34:57):
and they're see us, and they'regradually learn to trust us and give us
a chance. And I'll tell youI love Carroll County, I love Delphi,
and I love Peru in Miami County, which is Kagan's. I feel
like we want to know both communities. We've gotten to know wonderful people in
both, and we've gotten to knowboth as more than just where like a
bad thing happened. They're like fullyformed communities, and we don't want to
(35:21):
be like just parachuting in and beinglike this is where something terrible happened by
and then like you know, wewant to be seeing them for what they
really are. Because everyone hates that, right, Like when you like if
a true crime podcast does like somethingon your hometown and they just kind of
magnify one awful thing but then don'thave any nuance, that's just annoying.
Like that's just kind of like youfeel like people are not really engaging with
(35:44):
the subject. You've done a greatjob of connecting and introducing us to other
individuals locally and at a national levelas well that we probably wouldn't ever heard
of or get to hear the sideof the story or point of view,
etc. So great job on that. I'm going to finish up with a
question. You get asked every timeyou're on something. It's something that you're
always going to be asked, whydid it take so long? What do
(36:06):
you think happened? It's incredibly likealmost six years, right, five years.
I mean, I feel like wecould be surprised. We can learn
more. I mean, I haveto imagine we'll learn more information about that
because it could be questioned at trialor hopefully post trials and some interview will
explain it. But I and Ithink it could be just the boring answer
(36:29):
of this tip got and nobody didanything, and then they just kind of
fun their wheels on other suspects overtime and came back to it. I
think that's and that if that's thecase, then that's so tragic because I
think the people who did this investigationcare about the case, and I think
it's not about like people being bador corrupt or dumb. It's just human
(36:52):
error. Just and there were thousandsupon thousands of tips. It sounds like
this was a manual tip too,right, It's not like, hey,
I holed in a left of voicemail. It sounds like Richard Allen walked up
to an individual and he grow somestuff down. Yeah, and like and
I don't think we should be lookingfor a steak or somebody to blink where
it happening. I just think it'sjust it's it's tragic. It's just a
(37:14):
tragedy and that may have been compoundedby some human error. And perhaps there's
a lesson in there somewhere about casemanagement. But I don't think it's like
anybody did anything horrible or egregious.It's just I mean, we talked to
cops all the time in different cases, and you know, if you're getting
(37:35):
one of them and you're really youknow, talking about stuff like people will
you know, like mistakes do happen. No one wants to think that it's
going to be a mistake that hasthat level of impact. Like I said,
the way you handle something that's physicallywrote down is probably much more difficult
than I guess there's more for humanerror. Like you said, that kind
of stuff has a lot of roomfor human error, and maybe there are
lessons to be learned from it.And I will close it off by saying
(37:57):
this, what your guys coverage inthis amount of work you put in hasn't
made a difference. And I hopeyou guys truly can realize that one day
when you look back at it.Right now, you're too busy caught up
in it. I want to mentionthat, and I also want to mention
my thoughts and prayers, condolences everythingto all victims in this We talk about
Abby and Libby, we talk aboutRichard Allen, but this far stretches the
(38:22):
community, all the people that areassociated with them, and all the people
that impacts that are listening and involvedin the case. So I wanted to
take a second to do that.It's carry well said. I feel like
this case is left behind so manyfamilies, their friends, people who didn't
get to see them grow up.It's just mean. It's the enormity of
the tribes that he can't be overstated. Yep, and thank you both for
(38:42):
all the work you do. Iguess I gotta practice my pronouns here.
I won't say you both. Iwill say Anya and Kevin, the lovely
Anya and that manly Kevin Greenley himto grow that out. Finally, Yeah,
actually it was fine. We wenton Alive with Rick Snay. Yeah,
and somebody comment this is this iswhat he thinks. Someone complimented I
(39:04):
hadn't chat a chance to shape andso then I said like one comment yeah,
and then I later said he maybeyou should grow out, you know,
a beard. And then he waslike, you're only seeing that.
Rick Snay's audience want that. I'mlike, I don't know, Like,
oh, well, I one lightheartedthing in my day. I've been whole.
(39:24):
I've been waiting to say that faceto face to you for a while.
Now, Kevin, so well done. MANU get major points for me.
Now he need to get some moregray going in that thing. And
then I'll build a crack some morejokes at you. But in the meantime,
I'll I'll cut you a break.Thank you both. Make sure you
check out the Murder Sheet podcast.It's wherever you listen to podcasts Murder Sheet
(39:45):
podcast dot com. I think theycan even email you off there. I
think that might be set up ifI remember correctly, so yeah, I
want to contact him. Listen tothe podcast and of course they'll be on
Court TV, various other news outlets. Again, thank you for your time,
dat so much. Jeffrey got thekind of face everybody knows, brother
(40:12):
around being fluid, the schools goingto your dam and you like it,
finding road and you do that's wrong. People got a thankful the dangerous but
it inside the best to us takeit when they wrong. Like I said
to them, someone must do thebest weekend. Someone must do the best
(40:36):
weekend. Jeff Townsend Media sees yougood night, and the question is do
(41:08):
I stay here? Will you beback? Are you gonna come back?
Will you be back? Are youcoming back
What's she gonna do? Brother?When Jeff Townsend Media runs wild on you.
(00:25):
I'm super excited to chat with mygood friends today. Man, it's
been a while and we got tostop coming together on something such a tragic
thing. But I am really happyto see you guys. I'm talking about
the amazing Annia Cane and the manlyKevin Brainley. He's got a full beard
now, you know, you,guys, this is a this is an
(00:45):
audio only podcast at this point intime. But still though, last time
I talked to Kevin he was aclean shape fella. I've been seeing him
all over the place with his beardnow and I must say I'm impressed.
Thank you, Thank you guys bothfor taking the time to do this.
You have busy schedule You've got.I don't know what you've done so far
today. You've got a quart TVappearance later, which you frequently do,
which I said, I'm a bigfan of Google that. By the way,
(01:07):
YouTube at whatever you want to say. Court TV has a really good
presence on YouTube, so you cancatch up on some of the stuff you
guys talk about there with them,and to follow it up tonight, you're
going to hang out with our goodfriends at the Prosecutor's podcast on YouTube later.
So I appreciate again, I appreciateyou taking the time out of your
busy, hectic schedule to do this. Well, we so appreciate you having
us. Jeff. We alwayd lovetalking to you about this case and really
(01:30):
anything. We really enjoy your interviewsand so we're super happy to be here.
Thank you. Like I said,it's unfortunate we had to come together
on something like this, but youguys are always very supportive of If I
always say it affiliate of Jeff TownsendMedia, you know, I've got you
on my website host one of yourwebsites, So I mean it's I consider
you guys good good friends at thispoint, so thank you so anytime we
(01:52):
can say to you a good friendtoo. This podcast has actually kind of
gone through a little bit of arebrand to more of America Stories, but
I have a couple of friends thatare helping me out with it. But
the core audiences Indiana and we spokewith you guys last year. It was
kind of surprising to hear about howmany people didn't really know about this case.
(02:13):
They have this national case, butto me that was proof that there's
still people out there that hadn't heardabout it. So it was great.
They absolutely loved you and they supportyour podcast now a lot of them so,
but more importantly, they're following thecase. So yeah, again,
if you haven't checked out, youguys checked out the work of Kevin Ananya.
It's some murder sheet and they coverall sorts of different things, but
(02:35):
really have become the I don't wantto stereotype, but but you're affiliated with
this Delphi case quite a bit now. So and you guys do a lot
of other you know, with aburger chef murders, you have so much
other experience, but the Delphi caseis definitely something you guys have covered a
lot. So we're going to catchup today. Last time we talked,
we really just left off on theprobable cause Alfa, David, that was
(02:58):
wow. I don't know is thatsix more than six months ago? Now
eight months ago, nine months ago? A lot's happened since then, But
today news broke we'll get to that. Admitted just playing catchup. What's really
happened in the last several months that'scaught your guys attention. I know that
the recent thing has been Richard Allenand his defense kind of throwing it out
(03:19):
there that the unfair conditions at thefacility he's been kept at until the trial.
What else would you think would beimportant to mention before we go into
these details, like what else haveyou thought of? It would be significant
if somebody hadn't maybe heard any updates. I think the biggest thing for me,
at least is at the June fifteen, twenty twenty three hearing for due
(03:42):
process, the defense sort of revealeda bombshell, which was that there are
incriminating statements that were met by RichardAllen. They were trying to get ahead
of it basically sand listen, thisisn't as bad as it sounds. Prosecution
was then hammering on it and revealingmore detail that there were five to six
incriminating statements. Nick mcclell and theprosecutor referred to them as confessions. So
(04:06):
I think that's the biggest thing tocome out because that's essentially like new possible
evidence in the case, whether ornot, you know, it could turn
out to be incoherent and not supercompelling, or could turn out to be
quite compelling. We don't know what, but something that both sides are gonna
have to content. Yeah, upuntil today, as of today, what's
(04:28):
the day today, twenty eighth ofJune. We really had just until that,
we had just been hearing basically thecoordinate's going to be this day.
The defense once talked it was minimalstuff right then, So this is starting
to make sense. A couple ofweeks ago we heard about the defense saying
this incriminating evidence, So this iskind of making sense now. Like you
said, they were getting ahead ofwhat was announced today, plenty of court
(04:51):
documents unsealed. I guess you couldsay, bring some things the light in
one of those, which and wecan get into details here, but one
of the things that I lighted wasthe fact that Richard Allen has made five
to six confessions on I don't knowsome of them were via phone to his
family and other things. But thenagain, and I'll let you guys take
(05:13):
over. After this several months,we kind of and this sounds like the
seed was planted that Richard Allen rightor wrong. I'm not saying it that
maybe having some mental issues may bedeteriorated mentally. That has been planted since
several months early part of the yearand now it's starting to kind of make
everything deluded in this gray area withthese confessions that came out today. But
(05:33):
I'll let both that you take overnow and kind of explain what came out
today. I explained the general stuff. I've explained the general stuff since the
last several months. Most of thefilings in this case have been tapped confidential,
and it hasn't been clear why they'vebeen kept confidential, because generally speaking,
(05:54):
neither the defense nor the prosecutor hasasked for that level of secrecy for
every single filing. And so wedecided that wasn't appropriate, and we felt
to the level of secrecy was harmingthe case and inspiring a lot of conspiracy
theories belike. So we actually filedinto the case and asked Judge Gull to
(06:16):
release all of the documents that couldbe released, and basically that's what happened
day and early this afternoon, overa hundred documents that were previously sealed were
open. Yeah, and we assumedthat there would be only a handful,
and we didn't think there would bethat many, But it sounds like she
did a very intensive review based onour filing, and you know, she's
(06:39):
looking at this. She's a formerprosecutor and has a recutation for being a
very meticulous judge, So she's notjust releasing everything. She's looking and seeing
what should be released, what shouldnot be released, what would be released
in a typical case, you know, what are all the pros and cons
and what does the law say aftermaking those determinations. She released them today
(06:59):
and of the you know, theygive us a lot of insight on a
lot of different aspects of the Keithsthat were in the Jark. But one
thing, we got more information onthe actual confessions and also the timeline between
you know, the confessions and thesort of mental deterioration, because those seem
to be intricately connected on you know, and that's something that actually both sides
(07:21):
of the aisle sort of acknowledge here. Yeah, going back to the confessions,
and I used the term plead sayingthe seed was planted kind of makes
it seem like I'm saying something meanby saying that, But what I'm really
saying is, so the first confessionthat they're talking about here, but what
day did they go back to?April? Yeah, they said that the
first confession actually happened on April third, and they said this was in a
(07:46):
phone call between Alan and his wife, and that during the course of this
conversation, Richard Allen confessed to thecrime several times, and eventually Kathy Allan
and got so upset she into thecall fruptly. And then what's interesting is
that it was a couple of daysafter that that the defense filed their motion
(08:09):
saying, well, guess what,we think something's going on with him the
last couple of days he's been actingas if his mental condition has deteriorated.
And oddly enough, they also singabout April third is a day when he
started acting irrationally. And I'll I'llsay this, like, I think I
could see two sides to it.I think if you're made being more favorable
(08:31):
towards the prosecution, you're like,Okay, that's awfully convenient. He's fine.
Then he you know, confesses,and then he loses his mind,
like like that's a bit convenient.At the same time, if you're on
the defensive side, you're saying,you know, his mental deterioration caused the
confession, so it makes sense thatit's linked. So it's kind of you're
seeing those two kind of camps.You view it in different ways, but
(08:54):
basically, prosecution is saying he confessedand is acting bizarrely because he feels and
reckoning with that, and the defenseis saying this is an innocent man is
unraveling. Yeah, absolutely, Icould definitely see both arguments. But for
me, I guess my point was, there's no coincidence that these things were
mentioned when they were. I don'tI'm not thinking. I mean, it
(09:16):
seems like everything's matching up here rightor wrong to where it is. And
we'll talk about some of the otherconfessions to let you guys mention if we
have any other information on that.But how does this hold up? Do
you think when we're presenting this asa case, presenting this in court?
That's a really good question. Idon't know if I have a strong opinion
either way about it being strong ora weak case. There seems to be
(09:39):
a lot to una here, andI would say that like there's going to
be a lot that gets determined inthe pre trial hearings and the pre trial
motions, because that's going to determinethe rules, the boundaries, what evidence
can be admitted, what evidence willget tough out, and that could really
shape how strong of the case orhow weak of the case it ultimately he
(10:00):
is. But if you are McClelandat this point and you're saying, we
have some confessions he pleases himself atthe scene, and we feel that ballistics
evidence strongly links him to the scene, then you know, you're probably feeling
pretty good about that. At thesame time, of the defense is a
lot of avenues to chip away atthat. They can contest ballistics evidence,
(10:20):
say that's not reliable. They cantry to get the gun thrown out.
You know, they have issues ofsearch warrant. So there's still a lot
of avenues for the defense to takeif they are, you know, trying
to be strategic and look at alltheir options. And I think it's also
important to note that we haven't actuallyheard or read the actual content of these
(10:41):
so called confessions, and both theprosecution and the defense characterize them differently.
Zania said. The prosecutor repeatedly referredthem as confessions. On the other hand,
defense attorney Brad Rosie said, well, that makes it sound like he
was being interrogated or something and thenbroke down and suddenly started telling everyone the
(11:01):
same story. And Rosie said that'snot what it is. He's just saying
things that are basically incoherent and they'renot consistent. And if that's the case,
people might find that less convincing,and it also goes back to his
mental state at the time he madethese statements. Another one of the documents
(11:22):
that was released today, for instance, was a letter from another inmate at
Westville who resides near where Richard Allenis, and according to this inmate,
people are yelling at Richard Allen alot, calling him a kid killer,
saying he should kill himself. I'msure the defense would say treatment like that
would really affect the curson. I'lljust jump in with one more thing though,
(11:46):
from the prosecution's perspective, a lotof people assume the confessions happened in
like a jailhouse snitch scenario, orlike to a guard or to a law
enforcement officer, and those would allsome concerns around. You know, a
coercion manipulation outright lies on the partof a snitch that might be trying to
(12:07):
cut a deal. Yeah, getbenefit from their Yeah, I get their
sentence his reduced up. Then,yeah, you know, like that's a
that's a thing that happens, it'svery dubious and unfortunate. But in this
case, I think being recorded andbeing unprompted. I don't believe his wife
is interrogating him on the phone,you know, doing gotcha questions. I
(12:28):
don't think that's the context here.So that seems problematic for the defense because
it's like that's a maybe the onesafe place for Richard Allen, a nice
conversation with his wife. Kathy stoodby him and has gone to all these
hearings for him. So I thinkthat is a bit of a problem that
they need to explain by saying,here is the mental deterioration that we're seeing.
(12:50):
It's part of that. Maybe he'strying to put a distance between them.
I don't know, but if notthat he actually killed anyone, it's
just this mental issue. The defensehas no choice but to react, right,
I mean, this is another hurdlefor them. It seemed like before
and we don't know everything yet,but it seemed like before, hey,
what this bullet is questionable. Nowthis kind of throw is something else at
(13:11):
him. They had to react oneway or another, and it seemed like
that's exactly what they're doing doing theirjob. I guess you could say,
yeah, do we know anything elseabout? Then we'll move on. But
do we know anything else about anyof the other confessions we have the inmate,
we have the recorded phone calls thatthere's like five or six different instances
that were brought up, but theydidn't go in specifics. Do we know
(13:31):
of anything else? There's a referencein one of these documents saying that he
confessed over the phone five or sixtimes in calls to life and was bother
So that's where the five or sixtimes came out in relationship, Like,
we don't know if that's five orsix phone calls or five or six times
(13:52):
in one pe good point, act, that's a really good point. Do
you got to mention that, Yeah, that's solid because it's one phone call
or that'll all make a difference.But it's all going to make it more
challenging for the defense. I mean, it's going to other things in this
that were strange. I remember readingsomething about eating paper. He was stuffing
(14:13):
court documents down his eating paper orsomething or my correct there. Yeah,
that's that's one hundred percent accurate,the prosecution said. After Richard Allen made
these alleged fashions to his wife,and she ended up hanging up the call
on him. His mental condition beganto almost immediately interiorate. He stopped wanting
(14:37):
to sleep, stopped wating to eat, he stopped he Previously he'd been making
a couple of phone calls a day. Suddenly he's going in weeks without making
any phone calls. And another behaviorprosecution mentioned in this document was, as
you said, he was literally eatingthe paper that has had his legal work
on it. And maybe that alsoplays into at different times the defense has
(15:01):
that've been saying they're not giving himour paperwork. It made me the reason
they're not giving it to him looksbig because he was Siblman fair point.
He definitely physically has been You've seensome change in Richard Allen physically lost a
lot of weight, doesn't look likein the best of health, which is
not uncommon when you see somebody incarcerated. I don't want to draw a direct
(15:22):
comparisonbody, at least to think ofthe Golden State killer Joseph de'angelo. Right
when he first brought him in,he was out working in his yard,
and then with a matter of acouple months, you see this fragile old
man what appeared to be. SoI have no doubt the conditions there are
not perfect, but there really doesn'tseem to be. I mean, that's
(15:43):
nothing's going to change as far asthat gears. It doesn't seem where he's
being housed. Yeah, that's athat's a really good point, and it
kind of reflects the prosecution's contention thatlike anywhere he's gonna be, he's going
to be isolated. He's going tohave to be isolated for his safety,
and there's not going to be anyother options that are as spacious or did
(16:04):
that are you know, more spaciousin a significant way or significantly better conditions
They even you know, said that, you know, Cass County Jail where
the defense wants and they don't havelike full time mental health stop. So
there's like a lot of back andforth. I mean, the defense contends
though that that's not the only issues. They're also noting correctly that west Fill's
quite far away for both of them, and it's better for Alan if his
(16:27):
attorneys can get to him quicking withouthaving to drive many miles and you know,
go through all the security of aprison versus a jail. So it's
another one where you can kind ofsee both sides of it. But but
basically, the prosecution's like, you'renot going to get a better situation anywhere
else, and he cannot be aroundother inmates because they will him based on
(16:48):
what he's accused of doing. Isit common for in a case like this
for the individual to be housed inour prison before trial? Do we see
this often or is it normally discountyjail? We've asked around and it's pretty
unheard of. Um, you mighthave people transferred from one jail to another,
that's not unheard of. But asfar as like a you know,
as the defense is called a pretrial detainee being housed at the you know,
(17:14):
MCU, the most you know,intensively controlled area of Westville. Even
when prosecution witnesses were asked that atthe last hearing, you know, the
warden and other official prison noted thatthat they're not aware of another case of
that happening. So it's definitely thedefense is absolutely right to say that it's
very unusual. I bet it alsoraises the level of attention that the Westfield
(17:40):
facility is receiving it and managing aswell. Oh yeah, yeah, But
it's a controversial place. It's definitelyit's come under criticism for treatments of inmates.
We talked to a couple of peoplewho were incarcerated there. They were
in gen POP and for behavioral reasons, they were placed in the maximum Control
unit, and I mean they basicallysaid that, like, in their opinion,
(18:00):
he's not being treated worse necessarily,it's weird that he's there before trial,
but like that's just the experience therebecause you know, and they noted
that they would see people starting todeteriorate because you're alone and you're with your
thoughts. It takes a very strongperson deal with that. In first,
the prosecution would tell you that there'svery there's very good reason why he's not
(18:25):
at the Carol County Jailed because it'sa relatively small jail, they don't have
a big staff, and this issomebody who would be at a risk because
there's people in that community who arevery angry, understandably with anyone who's been
accused of killing those two girls.And they were argued, we just don't
(18:45):
have the manpower or the facilities tohave him here safely, and so therefore
it's important for him to be somewhereelse, somewhere where he could be protected,
and certainly, no matter what youthink of the living conditions last all,
that is certainly one of the fewplaces in the state where he is
safe. Another thing that a lotof people are taken away from this,
(19:07):
the documents that released today draw intothe conclusions of a cause of death.
Let you speak to that. Idon't remember what exactly in the filings got
into that, but I saw there'sa lot of news coverage around cause of
death, and it's just so disturbing, and my heart goes out right out
of the families because obviously, Ithink it's a good thing when more information
(19:30):
comes out about the case, especiallynow that there's a trial going forward and
the information is going to have tocome out import no matter what. So
having it come out, you know, establishing a situation where it can come
out just as it comes out,instead of, you know, all during
a trial, I think is abetter situation. But you know, right
now they're having you know, they'reseeing all these headlines and it's just calling
(19:52):
my knives and stuff. Yea awfultoo, Yeah, it really, it's
really it's horrifying, and it bringsyou, like what this girl right and
the reason I brought it up notto talk about what what it was necessarily,
but more importantly, and you addressedit was it best to throw that
out there, throwing information out therenow beforehand because it's never let mean,
(20:18):
no matter what this this coverage isgoing to be significant when when this trial
happens. Do you guys think it'slikely that if this will be mainstream televised
or what is your guys feelings onthat, Like, I don't know if
you've been able to investigate some experiencewith these judges and just what what's the
likelihood of that being possibility? Yeah, I've been doing a eat dive into
(20:41):
judge goals story for a seven featureepisodes. Um all you know with the
with the with the night and withthe cause of death. One thing that
I think also had shifted in isthat you know, I think it then
releasing that at this point is asign that like the feel like, yeah,
they got their guy. When whenthere was a bullet involved and they
(21:03):
didn't want the perpetrator to throw outa gun made sense to keep cause of
death things like that really quiet.But now that we're hurtling towards a trial,
it doesn't matter as much essentially,So it's like that shift in terms
of timing. But as far asthe you know, Judge Goal was one
of the pilot judges for Indiana's firstCameras in Courtrooms program pilot program, and
(21:26):
so we don't know any anyone whatwill happen for a fact, with anything,
given the number, given the amountof public interests here, given the
amount of media attention, and giventhe Judge Goal, um, you know,
is very innovative in terms of someof the pilot programs and some of
the things she's participated with. Ithink that they will probably end up allowing
(21:47):
camera coverage at the trial. Idon't think it's going to necessarily be allowed
to devolve into a media circus.I can see a situation where you know,
there's there's things that are in between, like cameras everywhere and no cameras
of if they can have a poolsystem, one camera, everyone gets the
footage. Judge Gull also will havea lot of discretion. You know,
(22:07):
I don't want these witnesses filmed.I don't want you know, the jury
can't be filmed obviously, you know, but she can kind of basically dictate
you know, different things that makesense for this trial. So cameras in
courtroom does not necessarily mean complete openness, which it shouldn't necessarily because aspects of
a court should not be televised.And the current situation is frankly frustrating because
(22:33):
there is such interest in the caseand it's not exactly easy to find out
what's happening at court because the courtroomis very small, and usually close to
half of the courtroom is understandably reservedfor family or potential witnesses, so there's
(22:53):
not a lot of seats and sobecause of this, the public has to
really rely on the perspectives of thehandful of journalists and we can't even hear
anything. Yeah, that's another thingis that the courtroom has a very bad
audio system. We last hearing,we were lucky enough to sit in the
front row because we got it veryvery early, and so we were able
(23:15):
to hear probably about ninety percent ofthe stuff that was said. But other
reporters who were there just a rowor two behind us told us they could
hear almost nothing. And that doesn'treally seem to be an acceptable situation for
a case where there is such publicinterest, because the public really has a
right to know what's happening in theirname. They need, they deserve to
know what's happening in this case,absolutely, maybe we'll have to invest something
(23:38):
into that, a little bit moreof an infrastructure wise. In the courtroom,
both have been very critical of lawenforcement in the state of Indiana police
to the lack of information that wasshared. Now, looking back at everything
and where we sit today, I'mgoing to ask you a really tough question
here do it. Do you standbehind what you were saying this whole time
(24:02):
or is your mind change at allknowing that we know today. I think
you guys have faced a lot ofYou guys have been big advocates of that
and faced a lot of difficulties becauseof that. But you guys have been
saying, hey, there's no information, get the information out. Now we're
here today. What are your thoughts? That's a great question, And I
think I have I am kind oflike two mindsets on it at this point,
(24:23):
and I'll let you know if Ilike shipped on it further. Either
way. I can understand definitely thingslike the bullet, because again, have
a bullet, it's going to potentiallylink to somebody if that gets out,
that leaks that, I mean,whoever has that gun is going to get
rid of it right like, andthen there's made no way to hide.
(24:45):
And so I think I can reallycommend them, you know. I know
there's a perception that there's been alot of Delphi leaks or Delphi thinks getting
out. But the people at whoinvestigated his keys kept that locked down.
I think that's impressive, and Ithink that really may work to their advantage
if they end up, you know, getting a conviction here and a jury
(25:07):
is convinced that Richard Allen is theperfect So I think keeping certain things private
is very important for a case.And also, you know, I understand
there's also the element of, likethere's a lot of like really disturbed people
out there who follow this case whoessentially like will call in bad tips and
they're they're too disturbed to realize thatthey're actually hurting, you know, the
(25:33):
case by basically tying up resources overnonsense, you know what I mean.
Like I'm not talking about like somebodywho's in good like I'm talking about like
big Foot, you know, likejust stupid stuff that's just wasting everyone time.
And so you want to be ableto kind of like write off certain
kind of crank calls quickly because youkeep back information. So I'm sympathetic to
(25:53):
that. I'm an anxious person bynature, so I feel like if I
were in a position of power ina case like this, I would,
But we want to hold it cutyou off here. You have held a
lot back. You guys have heardwhat Let's let's be honest. You guys
also have heard things, and youwent with high integrity and decided not to
share it. So that's what makesthis question. That's what makes that question
(26:17):
that much tougher. Right, Youguys actually were put in that position and
you didn't say anything either because youknew it was best not too So,
yeah, I know it's crazy.I didn't even think about it that way.
But it's like we either we werelike we had times were like you
need to say things, and thenlike we got in several we've gotten like
many situations where we were like,oh, but we cannot release this or
(26:41):
we can't release this in this wayor right now, and like, yeah,
I guess it forced us to bemore empathetic with the police in a
way. Um, I'll say onething, I think I think I think
some of the media strategy um whatwas released or how it was released,
I think it did fuel confusion.I think, you know, you've got
(27:03):
you've had a situation where people were, you know, understandably hanging on every
word released because there was so littleinformation that was good and so people would
almost like use their imaginations to connectthe gaps. And I think that's right,
and that's understandable human impulse. Thosepeople were trying their best. But
(27:23):
I think that's a bad situation toput republican and to put the media in.
Frankly, I think there probably wouldhave been a healthier balance here to
release some things or I don't know, I mean not necessarily specific pieces of
evidence, but just seem like alot of confusion was fueled by the informational
vacuum. But I think we canempathize, and I think we can say
(27:45):
that we feel that the people workingon this investigation here deeply about getting justice
for Abby and Libby. And thatdoesn't mean everything they do it is perfect
or you know anything. It's justI think the mode evations weren't It's like
conspiracy cover up, you know,Like, yeah, I disagree with the
level of secrecy. I understand whythere needs to be some secrecy, and
(28:08):
as you accurately play it out,there's a lot we've held back in the
past. There's a lot we continueto hold back because if we don't learn
harm the case. I think though, it's important to stress even though we
disagree with a lot of the decisionsthe police and law enforcement have made in
this, we do understand their decisionsand we respect their integrity, and we
(28:32):
don't for a moment think that theyare holding stuff back for conspiratorial reasons or
to cover up for their own mistakes. When they're making the decision to hold
something back, they honestly believe that'sthe case, and you or I may
disagree, but that's their honest Andalso, you can always release something later.
You can never No, that'll probablybe the toughest quote you guys have
(28:59):
tele of interview scheduled. That mightbe the toughest question that you get asked
to this whole thing. That reallywill make you That's why we won't talking
to you, Jeff, because you'reasking the hard questions and you like know
this, like you know this wholestory, so you ask cover questions and
anyone else, Yeah, but honestly, it's great though, because it's like
a good conversation and helps us byour position, and like you know,
(29:22):
I think it kind of helps peopleunderstand everything better because it's like the slow
rolling being for a lot of peopleand they're maybe not picking up every thread
along the way, but I feellike you're good at kind of knitting that
all together. Thank a couple morequestions and we'll get out here. It's
kind of tough, but this onewas brought to my attention quite a bit
on my website just being associated withyou guys. I will receive some stuff
(29:45):
every now and then comment about youguys, comment about the case whatever.
A lot of people are asking whythe hell are we still talking about Keegan
Klein. So for you guys,and like I've said before, I'll go
on the record to say this,you're cover Bridge. Whether it has anything
to do with the killings or not, it looks like it doesn't to me
(30:06):
as a father of three beautiful daughtersin this state of Indiana. Has been
meaningful to me and very eye openingabout the dangerous people that are in society.
So I'm getting emotional talking about it. So I thank you for that.
But people are still asking why whatis in it for you guys at
this point in time. You recentlyhad an interview, which was great,
(30:26):
you went to the jail itself,you spoke with him, But what is
it at this rate that keeps youguys in connection? I get he's kind
of seems at this point in timehe trusts you, and you've had to
work hard. You've had to workhard to form any sort of relationship.
Sounds silly, right to bridge anysort of gap, You guys have had
to work pretty dang hard because thisguy went from being rather upset with your
(30:51):
coverage to being really one of thefew people is going to talk to.
That's yeah, that's absolutely fair question. And I think we tend to approach
the case a little bit differently thansome people, and I think he can
be aggravating, But I think maybeif I explain that, people will understand
we like have an academic interest andthat means like we want to document everything.
(31:15):
So like you know, when wereleased Ron Logan that Davis, you
know, that wasn't us thinking it'sRon Logan, we got him. It
was us saying, okay, whatwere the what were the police in the
FBI doing in March of twenty seventeen, Like what were they focused on?
Num Let's discuss was that? Youknow, like what you know, what
(31:37):
was against him, what maybe wasfor him? How did this all happen?
Like the story um then is filledout by all those books. For
me, Hagan is part of thestory. UM. He was on the
radar very quickly in February twenty seventeen, and then he sort of loops back
around where he's being kind of lookedat again in twenty twenty. And whether
(32:00):
or not he ends up being inany way related, I think it's fair
to say that unfortunately, like Abbyand Libby's deaths led to the uncovering of
what he was doing, and youknow, how it all fits together not
clear yet, But to me it'sinteresting what basically these deaths did, the
(32:21):
ripple effects that they had in termsof the wider investigation and what turns it
went down before coming to rest onhow So to me, he's still part
of the story. A lot ofpeople go into it more as like who
can we land for this, orlike who's the killer? And like I
get that, because I mean that'skind of what you expect in true crime.
(32:43):
It's like, let's figure this out, and we just have a different
idea about what figuring it out meansto us. It also means those kind
of loose ends that maybe you're alittle bit messier. And also what you
said about I mean, I didn'trealize like the level of Cee Sam that
like happens everywhere and what a nightmarethis is. So we also just kind
(33:04):
of got really into like talking toexperts about that topic because we just want
to like do some public service journalismand let people know about like this is
a thing you got to protect yourkids, Like, we got to talk
about this. So that's that's notlike We've talked to a lot of people
who also like were you know,new or we're in relationships with child predators
who like had their lives destroyed bythat and like the guilt they feel and
(33:25):
like how they overcome that. Sojust kind of became an interesting avenue to
explore. That's a that's a greatanswer, but and it also has to
go back to for me, theinterest and the passion of this instance is
it's local to us. How muchdo you think that plays in do you
guess, Yeah, that's huge,It's just kind of like, you know,
I mean, I'm I'm from NewYork, so I kind of like,
(33:49):
I think coming into Indiana's you know, like oh, it's like so
nights and kind of like you know, chill, and you know, we
don't we all know this, butlike it's worth standing. Bad things happen
everywhere, and like some time,even if it's like a really nice,
cute, how wonderful people in it, there can be someone doing something really
bad and it's worth talking about.And at the same time, you know,
I think being reported on Kagan's story, we reported on like the you
(34:13):
know, the fact that the Delphiinvestigation was very interested in him at one
time, and I felt like wealso need to you know, he needs
to have a One thing we've beenasking for him for a while is like,
hey, talk to us, liketell your side of it. Like
you know, we're you know,we're not gonna accuse you being involved.
You know, we want you tobe able to speak your piece, and
so having an interview with him,hopefully was an opportunity for him to have
(34:36):
his say, or at least say, here's my side of the story.
I think one thing about doing somethingthat's more or less love call is it
basically gives us the opportunity to goto the communities on the really get people
will see us there and they realize, oh, they just don't just come
here for court. They're interested,they're interested knowing what it's like here,
(34:57):
and they're see us, and they'regradually learn to trust us and give us
a chance. And I'll tell youI love Carroll County, I love Delphi,
and I love Peru in Miami County, which is Kagan's. I feel
like we want to know both communities. We've gotten to know wonderful people in
both, and we've gotten to knowboth as more than just where like a
bad thing happened. They're like fullyformed communities, and we don't want to
(35:21):
be like just parachuting in and beinglike this is where something terrible happened by
and then like you know, wewant to be seeing them for what they
really are. Because everyone hates that, right, Like when you like if
a true crime podcast does like somethingon your hometown and they just kind of
magnify one awful thing but then don'thave any nuance, that's just annoying.
Like that's just kind of like youfeel like people are not really engaging with
(35:44):
the subject. You've done a greatjob of connecting and introducing us to other
individuals locally and at a national levelas well that we probably wouldn't ever heard
of or get to hear the sideof the story or point of view,
etc. So great job on that. I'm going to finish up with a
question. You get asked every timeyou're on something. It's something that you're
always going to be asked, whydid it take so long? What do
(36:06):
you think happened? It's incredibly likealmost six years, right, five years.
I mean, I feel like wecould be surprised. We can learn
more. I mean, I haveto imagine we'll learn more information about that
because it could be questioned at trialor hopefully post trials and some interview will
explain it. But I and Ithink it could be just the boring answer
(36:29):
of this tip got and nobody didanything, and then they just kind of
fun their wheels on other suspects overtime and came back to it. I
think that's and that if that's thecase, then that's so tragic because I
think the people who did this investigationcare about the case, and I think
it's not about like people being bador corrupt or dumb. It's just human
(36:52):
error. Just and there were thousandsupon thousands of tips. It sounds like
this was a manual tip too,right, It's not like, hey,
I holed in a left of voicemail. It sounds like Richard Allen walked up
to an individual and he grow somestuff down. Yeah, and like and
I don't think we should be lookingfor a steak or somebody to blink where
it happening. I just think it'sjust it's it's tragic. It's just a
(37:14):
tragedy and that may have been compoundedby some human error. And perhaps there's
a lesson in there somewhere about casemanagement. But I don't think it's like
anybody did anything horrible or egregious.It's just I mean, we talked to
cops all the time in different cases, and you know, if you're getting
(37:35):
one of them and you're really youknow, talking about stuff like people will
you know, like mistakes do happen. No one wants to think that it's
going to be a mistake that hasthat level of impact. Like I said,
the way you handle something that's physicallywrote down is probably much more difficult
than I guess there's more for humanerror. Like you said, that kind
of stuff has a lot of roomfor human error, and maybe there are
lessons to be learned from it.And I will close it off by saying
(37:57):
this, what your guys coverage inthis amount of work you put in hasn't
made a difference. And I hopeyou guys truly can realize that one day
when you look back at it.Right now, you're too busy caught up
in it. I want to mentionthat, and I also want to mention
my thoughts and prayers, condolences everythingto all victims in this We talk about
Abby and Libby, we talk aboutRichard Allen, but this far stretches the
(38:22):
community, all the people that areassociated with them, and all the people
that impacts that are listening and involvedin the case. So I wanted to
take a second to do that.It's carry well said. I feel like
this case is left behind so manyfamilies, their friends, people who didn't
get to see them grow up.It's just mean. It's the enormity of
the tribes that he can't be overstated. Yep, and thank you both for
(38:42):
all the work you do. Iguess I gotta practice my pronouns here.
I won't say you both. Iwill say Anya and Kevin, the lovely
Anya and that manly Kevin Greenley himto grow that out. Finally, Yeah,
actually it was fine. We wenton Alive with Rick Snay. Yeah,
and somebody comment this is this iswhat he thinks. Someone complimented I
(39:04):
hadn't chat a chance to shape andso then I said like one comment yeah,
and then I later said he maybeyou should grow out, you know,
a beard. And then he waslike, you're only seeing that.
Rick Snay's audience want that. I'mlike, I don't know, Like,
oh, well, I one lightheartedthing in my day. I've been whole.
(39:24):
I've been waiting to say that faceto face to you for a while.
Now, Kevin, so well done. MANU get major points for me.
Now he need to get some moregray going in that thing. And
then I'll build a crack some morejokes at you. But in the meantime,
I'll I'll cut you a break.Thank you both. Make sure you
check out the Murder Sheet podcast.It's wherever you listen to podcasts Murder Sheet
(39:45):
podcast dot com. I think theycan even email you off there. I
think that might be set up ifI remember correctly, so yeah, I
want to contact him. Listen tothe podcast and of course they'll be on
Court TV, various other news outlets. Again, thank you for your time,
dat so much. Jeffrey got thekind of face everybody knows, brother
(40:12):
around being fluid, the schools goingto your dam and you like it,
finding road and you do that's wrong. People got a thankful the dangerous but
it inside the best to us takeit when they wrong. Like I said
to them, someone must do thebest weekend. Someone must do the best
(40:36):
weekend. Jeff Townsend Media sees yougood night, and the question is do
(41:08):
I stay here? Will you beback? Are you gonna come back?
Will you be back? Are youcoming back
Popular Podcasts
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show
The Clay Travis and Buck Sexton Show. Clay Travis and Buck Sexton tackle the biggest stories in news, politics and current events with intelligence and humor. From the border crisis, to the madness of cancel culture and far-left missteps, Clay and Buck guide listeners through the latest headlines and hot topics with fun and entertaining conversations and opinions.