November 21, 2022 • 32 mins
On this episode of Indiana Stories-Jeff Townsend talks to journalist Áine Cain and attorney Kevin Greenlee from the Murder Sheet Podcast. The team explains the latest updates in the Delphi Murders case. Including the arrest of Delphi resident Richard Allen and upcoming court dates.If you know any information on this case: contact information. Thanks for listening to the podcast, listen to more episodes to hear more Indiana Stories.Indiana StoriesThe Murder Sheet PodcastDelphi IndianaSupporters of the Podcast:Theme music provided by the ElmsUse Poddin for your podcast transcript, they've got all the tools that make it easy and great!Use PodcastPage to create a professional website for your content. Use the code INDIEPODCASTER to get 15% off!Content creators, use Boomcaster-- the easiest way to record studio-quality podcasts and video interviews from anywhere! Use the code INDIEPODCASTER to save 20% off your first three months!
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(00:00):
This podcast is or Jeff Townsend MediaProduction. This is Jeff Townsend. Thank
you for joining us for another episodeof Indiana Stories. Welcome to another episode
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of Indie Anna's Stories. I hopeyou've been enjoying the podcast so far.
If you have missed a few episodes, you can go to Indiana Stories dot
com and get caught up. Alsohave some blogs there and various other things
going on. The podcast is availableon every podcast listening platform. Give it
a follow, review it, thatwould be cool. Today's episode by request.
(00:46):
We have a lot of listeners thatare maybe as not as knowledgeable about
the Delphi case, so it gaineda lot of interest on the two parter
I did on the case. Obviously, when I recorded that, the news
hadn't came out of the arrest ofRichard Allen, so I was able to
actually go back. I can catchup with my good friends and Murder Sheet
podcast a few days ago, andwe recorded a conversation here where we're giving
a rundown to where the case isat right now with the recent arrest.
(01:07):
Yeah, I did go out andmake this happen because you all were very
interested in listening to it. Wewill get to that here in a minute.
It's an informative conversation that'll get youcaught up before the court hearing,
I believe, which is on Tuesdaythe twenty second. We'll get into that.
I just have to mention a fewsupporters of this podcast that are really
good to me and all the contentI create. Podon dot io the best
(01:29):
transcription, best way to transcribe yourpodcast, hands down, if you're in
the need for that for whatever reason, I would highly suggest it. I
really do boomcaster dot com. Thatis where I'm recording every conversation that you're
listening to me have So this conversationwith the Murder Sheet podcast that was recorded
on Boomcaster can't suggest it enough then, of course podcast page dot io that
(01:51):
is what I'm using to put togetherall my websites now, the Jeff Towunson
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If you'd like to reach out tome, I'm on Twitter at podcasts underscore
Father. I'm also email is GoodJeff at Townsend dot Media. Any suggestions
or anything else you want to hearor learn about Indiana, I'm always open
to that. I won't delay anymore. We'll get into this conversation I had
with the Murder Sheet podcast. We'retalking about the Delphi, Indiana murders and
where it stands now. I'm excitedto catch up with the Murder Sheet podcasts
(02:37):
with Anya and Kevin. We recordedI don't know, it was probably like
a month ago. We kind ofgave a quick summary of the Delphi case
and where it stood then. Obviouslya lot has happened since then, and
a lot of listeners wanted to hearmore about it, and so we're going
to take about it. Won't bea super long amount of time here,
but we're going to kind of goover what happened. So so we left
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off on the episode I released acouple of weeks ago. We had were
kind of at a holding pattern hereand a lot of it, in my
opinion, was Kaigan Klein. Itwas like where we're gonna go, where's
that going to go with him?And then there's rumors that they had made
arrest then shortly after they did,and I'll let you guys pick up from
there. You're much better storytellers withthis than I am. Certainly we wouldn't
(03:21):
say that, Jeff, but thankyou. Yeah, this has been a
really momentous sort of several weeks forthe Delphi case. There was an arrest.
Someone has been arrested and charged withkilling Abby and Libby. It can't
be understated how big a development thisis. Everybody else who's come up on
the radar before has either sort ofgone away or has at least never been
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charged in connection with the Delphi case. And so we finally have a man,
Richard m Allen, who has beenarrested. He's facing two counts of
what is essentially felony murder in thecase, and we think we're covering it
closely. It's a very big dealand it really seems like things coming together
at this point, and you know, we hope that answers are closed for
(04:02):
the families. A lot of thethings that were brought up by Lieutenant Carter,
for example, like this person probablyis living in the area amongst you
probably familiar with him. So gentleman'sname is Richard Allen. He's fifty years
old, I believe right lives Idon't know if it's in city limits or
point being. He lives what amile and a half from the crime scene,
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I guess we'll say the trails.And he worked in Delphi at the
local pharmacy, the CVS. Hewas a part of the community and would
go out about visit the local barrestaurant. By no means was hiding or
unknown. I think, I don'tknow if he was so well known,
but he was not hiding exactly.No, certainly not. We actually talked
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to a few people who knew him. Yeah, now, I'm just going
to mention he did work at theCBS pharmacy and Delphi, and that pharmacy
is actually the only pharmacy in thetown. So that means basically, anyone
town whenever they needed some sort ofany item at all of him the pharmacy,
they would go to this place.And so it seems likely that most
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people in the town had some sortof at least nodding acquaintance with him.
And we do know, for instance, that the German family had some pictures
developed of live before the funeral,and those pictures were actually developed by Richard
Allen. And we also know we'veseen for a while the CBS even had
(05:28):
one of the sketches up on oneof the windows there. So anytime he
went to work, he went rightpast this sketch that was if the allegations
are true, it was actually athim. And just to make things a
little bit more aerie, like,there's a lot of pictures have come out
and stuff. One of them,I don't know if it's a pub or
what it is. There you canactually see his sketch behind him on the
(05:48):
wall where he's eating dinner or drinkingare I'm not sure what exactly was doing,
but I did see that. Soyeah, right amongst the community,
this individual originally came forward. Youguys know a lot more facts, but
he did say, hey, Iwas there that day, right, he
reported himself. Like they asked anybodythat was there that day, did you
see anything? He came forward andsaid I didn't see anything. Yeah.
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Fox fifteen nine had that first.We kind of elaborated upon it about him
coming forward, and then Whish TValso has had this fact that he has
he basically placed himself in the vicinityof the crime on the day of which
when you look back at different highprofile crimes, that's not necessarily super uncommon
of possible perpetrators doing that. Asyou know, for a variety of different
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reasons came forward. He was helpful, didn't raise enough red flags apparently to
you know, make the investigation feelhe's the guy we need to be looking
at. But seemingly he's come backaround recently essentially as far as oh,
we need to look at this guy, and at this point in time,
we don't. We don't know why, but something had to have happened.
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They've circled back, They've discovered something. My question is we put a lot
of focus and you guys taken alot of heat for the Keigan thing.
Yes, and I necessarily, Imean, to my opinion, it needed
to be highlighted one way or anotherbecause he was involved in such terrible things
that for me, as a parent, you need to realize that. Take
that seriously, because I know Iwas watching I think you guys are on
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a court TV. Was it acourt TV special? Yes? And I
don't remember who the gentleman was,but he even said like, there's a
chance that this is all just areally bad coincidence. There's a chance of
that things happened like that maybe hewas texting, he was messaging her under
the fake account the day where ithappened, or there's a connection, right,
I mean, because we know thatthey spent a lot of time on
him, regardless of it was thator for all the other child abuse crimes
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he did. Yeah, I wouldsay what we're most interested in reporting is
typically you know what direction is theinvestigation going. So when investigators are looking
very carefully at Anthony shots Kagan Kleine, what that might have meant to the
case, that's what we're following.And some investigators it kind of depends on
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who you talk to. Some peoplesay coincidences are pretty rare thing. Other
people say other people say, nocoincidences can happen. I would say the
fact that an online predator was inclose contact with Liberty German around the time
of her death, and that shewas enthralled by this person and wanted to
meet this artificial person who didn't exist, who turned out to be an adult
man pretending to be a teenager,I think that should remain probably an area
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of focus until we can get tothe bottom of it, and I think
we're just kind of waiting to seehow the investigation continues to play out.
I think it's worth noting that evenat the press conference where this arrest was
announced, Superintendent Doug Carter made apoint of not ruling out the possibility that
there were more people involved in thecrime than just Richard Allen, And in
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fact, the investigation is continuing andit is possible that there may be other
arrests. The fact that the investigationis continuing is actually one of the reasons
why the probably will Affidavid in thisarrest was kept secret and people ask us
all the time, well, hecouldn't have done it alone, right,
(09:07):
It must have been a bunch ofpeople, you know, it must have
been a conspiracy. We just kindof are withholding judgment. We don't know.
I mean, it will depend onwhat detectives sort of are able to
suss out of this whole thing.Are we looking at something where this is
an alone wolf perpetrator without any connectionsto anybody. I think some things that
police have said so far indicate thatthey're at the very least considering the involvement
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and possible culpability of other parties,But whether that means that multiple people participated
in the actual homicide, I thinkthat's something we don't know yet. Is
this a situation where there were feloniesgoing on that could be linked to the
murders, or is this a situationwhere you have multiple parties involved in the
murders themselves. We don't know yet. We're definitely following it. But we
can say the fact that the factthat when Superintendent Carter got up, he
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was stressing the investigation is not over. We continue to need the public's help.
We find that highly significant. Oh, I agree, And like I
said before, I trust you guysinformation that you're sharing more than anybody's and
there's a lot being shared. Alot of people are indicating that there is
a connection from your sources. Isthere anything I'm staying between the family client
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family and then Richard Allen, isthere anything from your sources to indicate this
or are these just random things thatare being thrown out, particularly with the
father. Maybe right, No,it's a great question. I don't think
we've found anything that's a concrete linkof somebody saying, yes, they knew
each other, they hung out.We haven't found that. We've found definitely
mutual friends. We've found definitely somegeographical links. You do have Richard Allen,
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at least for time seemingly living andpossibly briefly working in Peru at the
CVS there. We had a numberof people come forward and tell us that
they saw him there behind the counteror sort of working, and so you
do have this small town thing.One thing I think it's important for people
who are not from this part ofIndiana to remember is that Delphi is quite
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a ways away from Peru and Mexico. So it's about forty minutes away,
and you don't get a lot ofcrossover necessarily. I mean there's some crossover,
right, people move places, Butwe talk to a lot of people
from Mexico Indiana and from Peru Indiana. Most of them say, yeah,
I don't know that many people whomoved to Delphi. Whereas Mexico and Peru,
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for a little geography lesson, areright next to each other, They're
four minutes away from one another.Mexico is like the little tiny town right
outside of yeah, right, Peru'sthe county seat, so it's a bit
bigger and more robust. So youhave the Mexico kids hang out with the
Peru kids. It's also a Denvernearby. It's a lot of confusing names,
but that's more of a social circle. Delphi is a bit more removed.
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So we do find some of thefact that people are from the same
area and have these social links,that they're friends with people who are friends
with each other. We find thatrelevant. But whether or not it'll turn
out to be a concrete link orsomething that's maybe more of coincidental or something
that is kind of tangentially linked.I think that's going to be anybody's guess.
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At this point. It's fair tospeculate that they were received information that
would indicate that they've made this arrest. And I think the thing with me
is if there is somebody else involved. Five years is a long time for
somebody not to say something or confessedthat somebody else had done something. What's
the old what's the old saying youknow two you can keep your secret if
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one of them is dead. That'sa long time to go without saying anything.
For me, it's curious if it'sthat or is it a breakthrough with
DNA technology. There's so many differentthings It could be at this point in
time. But going back to whatI said, it when when crimes have
two people involved with them, itis very hard to go a lifetime without
something coming out because you're not justrelying on yourself not saying anything, You're
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relying on somebody else. I wouldsay the one wrinkled to that, in
my opinion, is the fact thatyou have the sexual abuse of children possibly
being involved here, and successful childpredators who able to go under the radar
can blend into years in whatever churchthey're in or whatever community where they're in,
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or whatever position of power. AndI think, you know, they
do find each other and they doexchange abuse materials, and some of them
can kind of go under the radarfor a long time. So I think
in like a typical robbery homicide,yes, a group being involved makes it
more risky, but you do havethese communities where these people are predators and
they do look out for one anotherbecause society completely reviles them, rightfully so,
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because they go after kids, butthey have each other's backs because they
know that if they go down,or you know, their friend goes down,
then you know, the whole hornet'snest kind of gets shaken up,
So that's just one little wrinkle withit. But I tend to agree the
more people involve, the harder itbecomes to keep a secret. Yeah,
especially when all speculation or just noteven necessarily about this case, when one
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of them gets arrested and they havesomething that is also what would what you
just said would go out the window. Very few people would be willing to
die for somebody like that if theyhad a chance to get out of it.
Just a character thing why they're therein the first first place. But
a solo act, right like DennisRader then the Golden State Killer. They
were able to keep that close tothe vest and nobody else knew about it.
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We don't think at least this particularthing. If there are multiple individuals
involved, then I guess we'll see. But like you said, Lieutenant Dug
Carter was very adamant on what's keepthe tips going, Let's keep everything going.
So I honestly don't know, butlike you said, it's sealed.
So what's happening? Is it twentysecond one's happening? And what exactly can
we expect to come out of that. I know there's a couple different possibilities.
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Yeah, it's this coming Tuesday,November twenty second, at nine am.
The judge in the case is goingto hold a hearing as to whether
or not that probably will cause afterDavid will remain sealed. And what's interesting
is, at least at some pointsthe prosecu of Carroll County is indicated that
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he believes it's necessary for it toremain sealed in order to protect the investigation.
On the other hand, the publicdoes have a right to know what's
going on. And also it's interestingto know that Doug Harder gave an interview
to be IBC Radio the other dayin which he seemed to suggest he didn't
think it would be that damaging ifit did come out. So, considering
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all of that, we think itis likely that at least some information in
that problem caused Affid David will bereleased. They can do that, Kevin.
They can say, hey, we'llgive you this, but we'll get
we can't give you that legally.I don't know how that works to you,
obviously are the expert. So theycan do that. They can pick
and choose what can be released fromit exactly. It doesn't have to be
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all or nothing. They can gothrough it with the equivalent of a black
magic marker and run it over thoselines and words that they feel would be
damaging. To be least. Thatmight be something as simple as the names
of witnesses, or it could besomething else that we're not even aware of
that makes you, I mean,then you curious why are they holding it?
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The investigation is clearly not over,so whatever that means. Going back
to Richard Allan, what are someother things about this individual? Did he
have a criminal record? Yeah,it's actually pretty fascinating. So Alan,
as far as we've been hearing andseeing in terms of possible criminal record,
was very clean. You know,did not have any sort of really major
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red flags. I'm not aware.I think maybe some people turned off out
like a traffic thing once, butI don't think beyond that there was anything.
He really had the appearance of alaw abiding person who was friendly.
What people have told us again andagain about him is that he was quiet,
but not in a creepy way likeyou have a lot of people who
kind of give off a bad vibeand they don't talk to anybody. He
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was just like he minded his ownbusiness, did his job, was friendly,
not too overly friendly, but justkind of did not really raise any
red flags among law enforcements, seeminglyin the years that he's you know,
in the five decades he's been onthe planet, but also with people who
interacted with him day to day atCBS, in the community. This case
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has led to a lot of speculation, a lot of individual a lot of
finger pointing. Yeah, and oneof the unfortunate things when this happens Richard
Richard Allen's family takes the impact aswell. Right, there's a lot of
people that come out of this justterrible, and I know a lot of
videos and stuff are being shared.Assume his family at this point is completely
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removed himself from the location or ifnot social media or anything like that.
Because I've seen a lot of things. It's really bad, and I think
it's it makes I mean, Ithink there's a real lack of empathy when
people do that. I mean,we just don't know the facts yet.
If people were covering up for himin his crimes, then obviously they deserve
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to be blamed. But there's beenno indication that that was the case here.
I mean, and I think whenpeople say, well, how could
you not know that your husband didsomething so awful. One he's presumed innocent
until proven guilty. But let's youknow, just for hypothetical sake, plenty
of spouses cheat on one another ordo bad things, or you know,
spend money that they're not supposed tobe spending and lie about it to their
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spouse and they don't get caught fora while. So I mean, if
spouses can hypothetically lie to each otherabout that, then possibly lying about a
horrible crime. I mean, ifthe person is good at that and good
at lying and is able to kindof build that barrier, then I don't
think we should be jumping to assumptions, and certainly nobody should be harassing his
family. That does not do anythingfor the case, It doesn't do anything
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for libbyan Abbey. It just addsmore negativity and hurt to an already really
negative and hurtful situation for everybody.So I can under like people are angry
about this, rightfully. So thesetwo girls did not deserve this, their
families didn't deserve this, community didnot deserve this. But taking it out
on the scapegoats of this man's family, before we have all the facts and
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before we really have a sense ofwhat happened. I just it's appalling.
Yeah, and I just gave twoexamples of individuals Joseph D'Angelo and the denistrator
decades decades, decades, And itkind of also ended the stigma that people
that do that just can't stop.Those guys have done a lot of they've
had they obviously had several murders andthey stopped. So yeah, I'm with
you on that. I have nodoubt their families didn't know. I mean,
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you can live a lifetime, right, you can be considered a great
person in the community and all that. But nevertheless, this case is now
forming. So let's let's say thatthe original trial date is March correct.
Yes, and I know these things, Kevin, you could probably speak to
this on you as well. Thesethings get pushed back all the time anyway,
right, So, I mean,what's the likelihood that this could go
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till a year from now? Possibly, even if they have their whole case
right now. I think it's very, very possible it's going to be delayed
a year or even longer. Thiscase is extraordinarily complex. Richard Allen only
got his two attorneys within the lastfew days. They have to get his
story from him, They have togo through five and a half years of
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very detailed investigative case files. Theyhave tried to build a case, get
witnesses. That's all very, verytime consuming, and all of it takes
much longer than you would expect.And then also they have to figure out
where they want to do the trialat because frankly, the people who live
in Delphi have been deluged with informationabout this case for the last five and
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a half years. I'm not sureyou could even find an impartial jury there.
And I will say, you know, he does have the right to
a speedy trial, but the defendantin a case like this would also,
we imagine, probably want to waivethat to a certain extent as they build
up their own defense and have theirdefense attorneys get their own investigations trying to
find out, you know, evidencethat maybe points away from them. So
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it's it's very complicated, but wekind of imagine that it's not going to
be In March. A couple ofdifferent things that have come out of this
or events that have happened, thejudge that was involved in the case willingly
withdrew from with being in that thoseactivities. And then the second part of
that, like you said, hechose a public defender, but that was
(21:23):
not the original thing, right,He was going to seek that but couldn't
afford it. No, it's expensive. So what do we know about this
judge that exited, the judge thatentered, and then these do we know
anything about the public defenders at all? Yeah? So the judge who exited,
Judge Benjamin Deaner, is the circuitcourt judge in Carroll County. There
were some troubling indications that all wasnot well in that court. He sent
(21:48):
emails on which he seemingly accidentally ceasedmedia talking about how overwhelmed he was and
how much he didn't feel Carroll Countycould handle this released a very pointed and
injecting my pinion near your bizarre opinionabout that was just a transfer order.
It was just all you had todo was say, okay, I can
you can transfer Alan to the Departmentof Corrections. But he went on this
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whole rant. He became like amedia critic. It was talking about,
you know, the blood lust ofthe public, and it was just,
I mean, it was a lot, you know what we were hearing behind
the scenes was sort of indicated that, like, this might not be the
judge for this, because I don'tknow, something so high profile. You
want somebody who's going to really beable to handle the pressure. How did
they go about picking the judge inthe first place, just out of curiosity?
(22:30):
Sorry in her up, No,you're fine. It just it just
fell to him. I mean it'sa very small county. I'm pretty sure
that the circuit count the circuit courtwould just be the judge that you would
go to for a murder like this. And we were very we were very
relieved when he stepped aside. Wethink that was a responsible move if he
didn't feel like he could handle it, And we're glad that it sort of
moved on. And the judge whohas it now is a very experienced judge
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who has handled other high profile casesand handle them very well. The case
that comes to mind is she handof one of the cases connected to the
Richmond Hill bombing case, which wasthe case in Indianapolis a while back in
which a person decided to commit insurancefraud by setting up an explosion in their
(23:14):
home and it ended up the explosionended up picking up a big chunk of
our neighborhood. Also a felony murdercase, which is which is also the
case here. So interesting that shehas experience with that and the media.
Yeah, she has a very she'sa very experienced person. So the defense
attorneys are there. Two these menwere appointed by the court. Yeahs as
(23:34):
mister Allen indicated in his letter fromjail, you know, he and his
family cannot afford private council. Sothis is somebody who the judge is basically
going to and saying, I wantyou to take this on. Now.
There's a there's a mister Baldwin who'sactually from out of counties, from you
know, the south of Indianapolis,actually Franklin, and so it's interesting that
(23:55):
he's kind of coming in. Welooked at his kind of my case profilic
some of the cases. He's donea lot of criminal work. I didn't
see any murders, but I didn'treally go back that far, but there's
a lot of serious crimes. Sosomebody who's definitely comfortable in a trial setting,
someone who's definitely comfortable with criminal lawand very much you know, seemingly
has an expertise in that. Sohe's going to be coming in from out
(24:17):
of town, which seems sort ofsignificant because there's such a focus on this
case up up in that neck ofthe woods of Indiana. So this is
somebody who's maybe not having some ofthose local pressures. And then there's a
mister Rossie of Logansport who's kind ofmore in the area, you know,
as a public defender up there.It seems significant and you know, reasonable
(24:37):
that in such a high profile casethere's kind of two people who are coming
together as public defenders, who aregoing to be able to give him the
best defense possible. Because we've beendisheartened to see some people kind of like
criticizing the defense attorneys, and oursystem requires defense attorneys. You can't just
throw somebody to the wolves after they'vebeen you can't try them in the public
sentiment. You can't just say,Okay, looks guilty, so let's throw
(25:00):
them away. He needs the bestdefense. Otherwise, on appeal he could
say that he had incompetent defense lawyers, and the process becomes even more of
an ordeal for the families in thecommunity. So people should not be harassing
the defense attorneys either. On thisThese are public defenders. It is important
to note that not too many peoplewould be able to afford to pay private
(25:22):
attorneys in a case like this.Behind the scenes, we were hearing numbers
that some attorneys were asking for retainersin the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And that's just to start with.A middle class family would be bankrupted
by this, not to make peoplecould afford something like that. And is
(25:42):
Alan wrote in his letter to thecourt, he obviously is not working since
he's incarcerated, and his wife hasbeen the target of so much harassment,
but she doesn't feel safe to work. So this is a family with no
money coming in and obviously not toomany families would have that kind of savings
to pay for a private attorney.Yeah. Yeah, And I think last
(26:04):
time we spoke, we talked aboutthe Stephen Avery case in Wisconsin. He
had a set he had a bigsettlement that came to him. That's why
he was able to afford a couplepretty good defense lawyers. But in this
case, yeah, the common persondefinitely wouldn't be able to afford that.
We I mean, that's a lotof money, but you're right, everybody
has the right to a fair trial. So is there anything else in this
(26:25):
in this case that's worth noting atthis point. Any information really additionally from
the things that we've talked about thatare a point of interest, I guess
you could say I would say that, you know, this case has always
been plagued by in some cases helpedby speculation. It's gone on for years.
People take the blurry photograph and theysay, well, it looks like
(26:45):
this guy or that guy, andyou know, sometimes they have a decent
case for it. Sometimes it justseems like rank speculation. And at this
point there is a name. Nowthere is a person. So I mean,
I think it's important to focus tipson who is this person? Can
we know about him, who washe hanging out with, what was he
doing, did he ever do anythingbad in the past that maybe didn't get
(27:06):
adjudicated, like what? And soI think people should focus on what we
have now. And I think it'skind of I mean, it's kind of
like the grand irony of this isthat it's been five years. There's been
so much online speculation. We've allbeen running around us, in the media,
people in the communities, people outsidethe communities who care about this case.
(27:27):
And I think it's just kind ofstrangely fitting that no one ever heard
of Alan before. This man hasnot come. We have not talked to
anybody, whether it's in the onlinesleuth community, the media community, nobody
was nobody had this guy in theirnotes even And I think that just kind
(27:47):
of shows you that sometimes the realitiesof an investigation are so different than what
we can conjecture on the outside.And I think that's just an important thing
to remember in any case, butespecially this case going forward, and you
know, we're going to be certainlytrying to get answers, members of the
media, members of you know,the citizens sleuths to kind of look into
this. But it's just a goodkind of reminder that, you know,
(28:08):
sometimes it's the it's the thing youdon't expect that's going to turn out to
be the most important thing. Yeah, on all reference, one of the
most intriguing I think things that I'veresearched, the Golden State Killer, right
like that wasn't hundreds of individuals overforty years brought for the internet investigative people
then that guy wasn't on anybody's radar, but it all made sense when it
(28:32):
played out. So we'll be curiousto see what they what information comes out
of this, and we might notknow for a while. My last question
for you, do you feel moreunderstanding at this point, Not that you
weren't in the first place, butdo you feel more understanding and should others
that this is maybe why they heldit so close to him and didn't give
much information to the public. UmNo, And I'm going to tell you
why this is speculation. But Ithink when people say, well, the
(28:56):
police must just been pulling a longcon and doing like your investigation on this
one person, I don't think thatthat's what happened here. I think he
came up early, and he cameup again recently, and so I think
a lot of the secrecy still thereshould be some ultimately accountability and accounting for
that. Now that being said,keeping the probable cause sealed, I guess
(29:21):
that will just depend on what's init, although it sounds at this point
like law enforcements sort of backing offthe claim that it's really important to keep
it sealed, So we'll see whathappens with that. There's always reason to
keep things secret in an investigation,and I think if you have cautious investigators,
it makes it makes them want tokeep things secret. Because you can
always undo that by going public,but once you go public, you can
(29:41):
never undo that it's already public.So I think we can understand the level
of caution that they've treated this casewith. But frankly, I think at
some time, at some point,it has to be acknowledged that maybe some
of the secrecy did kind of spura lot of the online obsession and online
sleuthing and frankly, online harassment ofpeople who are innocent parties, including the
(30:02):
family members of the victims. SoI think we would still kind of take
some issue with the secrecy, butin certain select instances in this case,
it's certainly justified. So we're notjust saying, oh, shine a light
on everything, because obviously that couldbe harmful to the case. If that
makes sense, makes perfect sense,because when this all plays out, there's
(30:22):
more than one, there's more thantwo victims. It's a lose lose for
everybody, like you who said earlier, including his family. I do want
to note that, regardless of theoutcome or anything, I think myself and
a lot of other people really appreciatethe work that you've done on the Murder
Sheet podcast. I recommend everybody tocheck it out. But seriously, the
things that you've uncovered are significant forus to realize as a society, for
(30:45):
us to realize as citizens. Evenif it has nothing to do with anything,
the work that you've done is verysignificant, and I just wanted to
make sure I personally told you guysthat and in front of everybody. Thank
you very much. It's really sweet. Thank you so much. It means
a lot. Yeah, it doesabsolutely, and hey, we'll catch you
back up again, and as always, I appreciate talking to you and everybody.
Check out the Murder Sheet podcast.Thank you so much. Thank you
(31:11):
for listening to this episode of IndianaStories. If you like what you heard,
you can go to Indiana Stories dotcom for more episodes and other stories
relating to Indiana. Also, ifyou're enjoying this podcast, there's several things
you can follow, the podcast itself, the newsletter, and various other things.
Thanks again for listening, and wewill be back with another episode and
I hope you join us for anotherIndiana Story. He and the question is
(32:00):
do I stay here? Will yoube back? Are you gonna come back?
Will you be back? Are youcoming back
This podcast is or Jeff Townsend MediaProduction. This is Jeff Townsend. Thank
you for joining us for another episodeof Indiana Stories. Welcome to another episode
(00:23):
of Indie Anna's Stories. I hopeyou've been enjoying the podcast so far.
If you have missed a few episodes, you can go to Indiana Stories dot
com and get caught up. Alsohave some blogs there and various other things
going on. The podcast is availableon every podcast listening platform. Give it
a follow, review it, thatwould be cool. Today's episode by request.
(00:46):
We have a lot of listeners thatare maybe as not as knowledgeable about
the Delphi case, so it gaineda lot of interest on the two parter
I did on the case. Obviously, when I recorded that, the news
hadn't came out of the arrest ofRichard Allen, so I was able to
actually go back. I can catchup with my good friends and Murder Sheet
podcast a few days ago, andwe recorded a conversation here where we're giving
a rundown to where the case isat right now with the recent arrest.
(01:07):
Yeah, I did go out andmake this happen because you all were very
interested in listening to it. Wewill get to that here in a minute.
It's an informative conversation that'll get youcaught up before the court hearing,
I believe, which is on Tuesdaythe twenty second. We'll get into that.
I just have to mention a fewsupporters of this podcast that are really
good to me and all the contentI create. Podon dot io the best
(01:29):
transcription, best way to transcribe yourpodcast, hands down, if you're in
the need for that for whatever reason, I would highly suggest it. I
really do boomcaster dot com. Thatis where I'm recording every conversation that you're
listening to me have So this conversationwith the Murder Sheet podcast that was recorded
on Boomcaster can't suggest it enough then, of course podcast page dot io that
(01:51):
is what I'm using to put togetherall my websites now, the Jeff Towunson
Media brand and everything. The teamthere's really good to me and I would
highly just you go there if youneed a website made. It's actually even
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it's very high quality. So Isuggested I got all those plugins in.
(02:13):
If you'd like to reach out tome, I'm on Twitter at podcasts underscore
Father. I'm also email is GoodJeff at Townsend dot Media. Any suggestions
or anything else you want to hearor learn about Indiana, I'm always open
to that. I won't delay anymore. We'll get into this conversation I had
with the Murder Sheet podcast. We'retalking about the Delphi, Indiana murders and
where it stands now. I'm excitedto catch up with the Murder Sheet podcasts
(02:37):
with Anya and Kevin. We recordedI don't know, it was probably like
a month ago. We kind ofgave a quick summary of the Delphi case
and where it stood then. Obviouslya lot has happened since then, and
a lot of listeners wanted to hearmore about it, and so we're going
to take about it. Won't bea super long amount of time here,
but we're going to kind of goover what happened. So so we left
(02:59):
off on the episode I released acouple of weeks ago. We had were
kind of at a holding pattern hereand a lot of it, in my
opinion, was Kaigan Klein. Itwas like where we're gonna go, where's
that going to go with him?And then there's rumors that they had made
arrest then shortly after they did,and I'll let you guys pick up from
there. You're much better storytellers withthis than I am. Certainly we wouldn't
(03:21):
say that, Jeff, but thankyou. Yeah, this has been a
really momentous sort of several weeks forthe Delphi case. There was an arrest.
Someone has been arrested and charged withkilling Abby and Libby. It can't
be understated how big a development thisis. Everybody else who's come up on
the radar before has either sort ofgone away or has at least never been
(03:42):
charged in connection with the Delphi case. And so we finally have a man,
Richard m Allen, who has beenarrested. He's facing two counts of
what is essentially felony murder in thecase, and we think we're covering it
closely. It's a very big dealand it really seems like things coming together
at this point, and you know, we hope that answers are closed for
(04:02):
the families. A lot of thethings that were brought up by Lieutenant Carter,
for example, like this person probablyis living in the area amongst you
probably familiar with him. So gentleman'sname is Richard Allen. He's fifty years
old, I believe right lives Idon't know if it's in city limits or
point being. He lives what amile and a half from the crime scene,
(04:23):
I guess we'll say the trails.And he worked in Delphi at the
local pharmacy, the CVS. Hewas a part of the community and would
go out about visit the local barrestaurant. By no means was hiding or
unknown. I think, I don'tknow if he was so well known,
but he was not hiding exactly.No, certainly not. We actually talked
(04:46):
to a few people who knew him. Yeah, now, I'm just going
to mention he did work at theCBS pharmacy and Delphi, and that pharmacy
is actually the only pharmacy in thetown. So that means basically, anyone
town whenever they needed some sort ofany item at all of him the pharmacy,
they would go to this place.And so it seems likely that most
(05:08):
people in the town had some sortof at least nodding acquaintance with him.
And we do know, for instance, that the German family had some pictures
developed of live before the funeral,and those pictures were actually developed by Richard
Allen. And we also know we'veseen for a while the CBS even had
(05:28):
one of the sketches up on oneof the windows there. So anytime he
went to work, he went rightpast this sketch that was if the allegations
are true, it was actually athim. And just to make things a
little bit more aerie, like,there's a lot of pictures have come out
and stuff. One of them,I don't know if it's a pub or
what it is. There you canactually see his sketch behind him on the
(05:48):
wall where he's eating dinner or drinkingare I'm not sure what exactly was doing,
but I did see that. Soyeah, right amongst the community,
this individual originally came forward. Youguys know a lot more facts, but
he did say, hey, Iwas there that day, right, he
reported himself. Like they asked anybodythat was there that day, did you
see anything? He came forward andsaid I didn't see anything. Yeah.
(06:09):
Fox fifteen nine had that first.We kind of elaborated upon it about him
coming forward, and then Whish TValso has had this fact that he has
he basically placed himself in the vicinityof the crime on the day of which
when you look back at different highprofile crimes, that's not necessarily super uncommon
of possible perpetrators doing that. Asyou know, for a variety of different
(06:32):
reasons came forward. He was helpful, didn't raise enough red flags apparently to
you know, make the investigation feelhe's the guy we need to be looking
at. But seemingly he's come backaround recently essentially as far as oh,
we need to look at this guy, and at this point in time,
we don't. We don't know why, but something had to have happened.
(06:54):
They've circled back, They've discovered something. My question is we put a lot
of focus and you guys taken alot of heat for the Keigan thing.
Yes, and I necessarily, Imean, to my opinion, it needed
to be highlighted one way or anotherbecause he was involved in such terrible things
that for me, as a parent, you need to realize that. Take
that seriously, because I know Iwas watching I think you guys are on
(07:15):
a court TV. Was it acourt TV special? Yes? And I
don't remember who the gentleman was,but he even said like, there's a
chance that this is all just areally bad coincidence. There's a chance of
that things happened like that maybe hewas texting, he was messaging her under
the fake account the day where ithappened, or there's a connection, right,
I mean, because we know thatthey spent a lot of time on
him, regardless of it was thator for all the other child abuse crimes
(07:36):
he did. Yeah, I wouldsay what we're most interested in reporting is
typically you know what direction is theinvestigation going. So when investigators are looking
very carefully at Anthony shots Kagan Kleine, what that might have meant to the
case, that's what we're following.And some investigators it kind of depends on
(07:57):
who you talk to. Some peoplesay coincidences are pretty rare thing. Other
people say other people say, nocoincidences can happen. I would say the
fact that an online predator was inclose contact with Liberty German around the time
of her death, and that shewas enthralled by this person and wanted to
meet this artificial person who didn't exist, who turned out to be an adult
man pretending to be a teenager,I think that should remain probably an area
(08:22):
of focus until we can get tothe bottom of it, and I think
we're just kind of waiting to seehow the investigation continues to play out.
I think it's worth noting that evenat the press conference where this arrest was
announced, Superintendent Doug Carter made apoint of not ruling out the possibility that
there were more people involved in thecrime than just Richard Allen, And in
(08:46):
fact, the investigation is continuing andit is possible that there may be other
arrests. The fact that the investigationis continuing is actually one of the reasons
why the probably will Affidavid in thisarrest was kept secret and people ask us
all the time, well, hecouldn't have done it alone, right,
(09:07):
It must have been a bunch ofpeople, you know, it must have
been a conspiracy. We just kindof are withholding judgment. We don't know.
I mean, it will depend onwhat detectives sort of are able to
suss out of this whole thing.Are we looking at something where this is
an alone wolf perpetrator without any connectionsto anybody. I think some things that
police have said so far indicate thatthey're at the very least considering the involvement
(09:28):
and possible culpability of other parties,But whether that means that multiple people participated
in the actual homicide, I thinkthat's something we don't know yet. Is
this a situation where there were feloniesgoing on that could be linked to the
murders, or is this a situationwhere you have multiple parties involved in the
murders themselves. We don't know yet. We're definitely following it. But we
can say the fact that the factthat when Superintendent Carter got up, he
(09:52):
was stressing the investigation is not over. We continue to need the public's help.
We find that highly significant. Oh, I agree, And like I
said before, I trust you guysinformation that you're sharing more than anybody's and
there's a lot being shared. Alot of people are indicating that there is
a connection from your sources. Isthere anything I'm staying between the family client
(10:13):
family and then Richard Allen, isthere anything from your sources to indicate this
or are these just random things thatare being thrown out, particularly with the
father. Maybe right, No,it's a great question. I don't think
we've found anything that's a concrete linkof somebody saying, yes, they knew
each other, they hung out.We haven't found that. We've found definitely
mutual friends. We've found definitely somegeographical links. You do have Richard Allen,
(10:39):
at least for time seemingly living andpossibly briefly working in Peru at the
CVS there. We had a numberof people come forward and tell us that
they saw him there behind the counteror sort of working, and so you
do have this small town thing.One thing I think it's important for people
who are not from this part ofIndiana to remember is that Delphi is quite
(11:00):
a ways away from Peru and Mexico. So it's about forty minutes away,
and you don't get a lot ofcrossover necessarily. I mean there's some crossover,
right, people move places, Butwe talk to a lot of people
from Mexico Indiana and from Peru Indiana. Most of them say, yeah,
I don't know that many people whomoved to Delphi. Whereas Mexico and Peru,
(11:22):
for a little geography lesson, areright next to each other, They're
four minutes away from one another.Mexico is like the little tiny town right
outside of yeah, right, Peru'sthe county seat, so it's a bit
bigger and more robust. So youhave the Mexico kids hang out with the
Peru kids. It's also a Denvernearby. It's a lot of confusing names,
but that's more of a social circle. Delphi is a bit more removed.
(11:43):
So we do find some of thefact that people are from the same
area and have these social links,that they're friends with people who are friends
with each other. We find thatrelevant. But whether or not it'll turn
out to be a concrete link orsomething that's maybe more of coincidental or something
that is kind of tangentially linked.I think that's going to be anybody's guess.
(12:03):
At this point. It's fair tospeculate that they were received information that
would indicate that they've made this arrest. And I think the thing with me
is if there is somebody else involved. Five years is a long time for
somebody not to say something or confessedthat somebody else had done something. What's
the old what's the old saying youknow two you can keep your secret if
(12:24):
one of them is dead. That'sa long time to go without saying anything.
For me, it's curious if it'sthat or is it a breakthrough with
DNA technology. There's so many differentthings It could be at this point in
time. But going back to whatI said, it when when crimes have
two people involved with them, itis very hard to go a lifetime without
something coming out because you're not justrelying on yourself not saying anything, You're
(12:46):
relying on somebody else. I wouldsay the one wrinkled to that, in
my opinion, is the fact thatyou have the sexual abuse of children possibly
being involved here, and successful childpredators who able to go under the radar
can blend into years in whatever churchthey're in or whatever community where they're in,
(13:07):
or whatever position of power. AndI think, you know, they
do find each other and they doexchange abuse materials, and some of them
can kind of go under the radarfor a long time. So I think
in like a typical robbery homicide,yes, a group being involved makes it
more risky, but you do havethese communities where these people are predators and
they do look out for one anotherbecause society completely reviles them, rightfully so,
(13:33):
because they go after kids, butthey have each other's backs because they
know that if they go down,or you know, their friend goes down,
then you know, the whole hornet'snest kind of gets shaken up,
So that's just one little wrinkle withit. But I tend to agree the
more people involve, the harder itbecomes to keep a secret. Yeah,
especially when all speculation or just noteven necessarily about this case, when one
(13:56):
of them gets arrested and they havesomething that is also what would what you
just said would go out the window. Very few people would be willing to
die for somebody like that if theyhad a chance to get out of it.
Just a character thing why they're therein the first first place. But
a solo act, right like DennisRader then the Golden State Killer. They
were able to keep that close tothe vest and nobody else knew about it.
(14:18):
We don't think at least this particularthing. If there are multiple individuals
involved, then I guess we'll see. But like you said, Lieutenant Dug
Carter was very adamant on what's keepthe tips going, Let's keep everything going.
So I honestly don't know, butlike you said, it's sealed.
So what's happening? Is it twentysecond one's happening? And what exactly can
we expect to come out of that. I know there's a couple different possibilities.
(14:41):
Yeah, it's this coming Tuesday,November twenty second, at nine am.
The judge in the case is goingto hold a hearing as to whether
or not that probably will cause afterDavid will remain sealed. And what's interesting
is, at least at some pointsthe prosecu of Carroll County is indicated that
(15:03):
he believes it's necessary for it toremain sealed in order to protect the investigation.
On the other hand, the publicdoes have a right to know what's
going on. And also it's interestingto know that Doug Harder gave an interview
to be IBC Radio the other dayin which he seemed to suggest he didn't
think it would be that damaging ifit did come out. So, considering
(15:26):
all of that, we think itis likely that at least some information in
that problem caused Affid David will bereleased. They can do that, Kevin.
They can say, hey, we'llgive you this, but we'll get
we can't give you that legally.I don't know how that works to you,
obviously are the expert. So theycan do that. They can pick
and choose what can be released fromit exactly. It doesn't have to be
(15:48):
all or nothing. They can gothrough it with the equivalent of a black
magic marker and run it over thoselines and words that they feel would be
damaging. To be least. Thatmight be something as simple as the names
of witnesses, or it could besomething else that we're not even aware of
that makes you, I mean,then you curious why are they holding it?
(16:10):
The investigation is clearly not over,so whatever that means. Going back
to Richard Allan, what are someother things about this individual? Did he
have a criminal record? Yeah,it's actually pretty fascinating. So Alan,
as far as we've been hearing andseeing in terms of possible criminal record,
was very clean. You know,did not have any sort of really major
(16:32):
red flags. I'm not aware.I think maybe some people turned off out
like a traffic thing once, butI don't think beyond that there was anything.
He really had the appearance of alaw abiding person who was friendly.
What people have told us again andagain about him is that he was quiet,
but not in a creepy way likeyou have a lot of people who
kind of give off a bad vibeand they don't talk to anybody. He
(16:53):
was just like he minded his ownbusiness, did his job, was friendly,
not too overly friendly, but justkind of did not really raise any
red flags among law enforcements, seeminglyin the years that he's you know,
in the five decades he's been onthe planet, but also with people who
interacted with him day to day atCBS, in the community. This case
(17:14):
has led to a lot of speculation, a lot of individual a lot of
finger pointing. Yeah, and oneof the unfortunate things when this happens Richard
Richard Allen's family takes the impact aswell. Right, there's a lot of
people that come out of this justterrible, and I know a lot of
videos and stuff are being shared.Assume his family at this point is completely
(17:34):
removed himself from the location or ifnot social media or anything like that.
Because I've seen a lot of things. It's really bad, and I think
it's it makes I mean, Ithink there's a real lack of empathy when
people do that. I mean,we just don't know the facts yet.
If people were covering up for himin his crimes, then obviously they deserve
(17:55):
to be blamed. But there's beenno indication that that was the case here.
I mean, and I think whenpeople say, well, how could
you not know that your husband didsomething so awful. One he's presumed innocent
until proven guilty. But let's youknow, just for hypothetical sake, plenty
of spouses cheat on one another ordo bad things, or you know,
spend money that they're not supposed tobe spending and lie about it to their
(18:19):
spouse and they don't get caught fora while. So I mean, if
spouses can hypothetically lie to each otherabout that, then possibly lying about a
horrible crime. I mean, ifthe person is good at that and good
at lying and is able to kindof build that barrier, then I don't
think we should be jumping to assumptions, and certainly nobody should be harassing his
family. That does not do anythingfor the case, It doesn't do anything
(18:44):
for libbyan Abbey. It just addsmore negativity and hurt to an already really
negative and hurtful situation for everybody.So I can under like people are angry
about this, rightfully. So thesetwo girls did not deserve this, their
families didn't deserve this, community didnot deserve this. But taking it out
on the scapegoats of this man's family, before we have all the facts and
(19:06):
before we really have a sense ofwhat happened. I just it's appalling.
Yeah, and I just gave twoexamples of individuals Joseph D'Angelo and the denistrator
decades decades, decades, And itkind of also ended the stigma that people
that do that just can't stop.Those guys have done a lot of they've
had they obviously had several murders andthey stopped. So yeah, I'm with
you on that. I have nodoubt their families didn't know. I mean,
(19:30):
you can live a lifetime, right, you can be considered a great
person in the community and all that. But nevertheless, this case is now
forming. So let's let's say thatthe original trial date is March correct.
Yes, and I know these things, Kevin, you could probably speak to
this on you as well. Thesethings get pushed back all the time anyway,
right, So, I mean,what's the likelihood that this could go
(19:52):
till a year from now? Possibly, even if they have their whole case
right now. I think it's very, very possible it's going to be delayed
a year or even longer. Thiscase is extraordinarily complex. Richard Allen only
got his two attorneys within the lastfew days. They have to get his
story from him, They have togo through five and a half years of
(20:18):
very detailed investigative case files. Theyhave tried to build a case, get
witnesses. That's all very, verytime consuming, and all of it takes
much longer than you would expect.And then also they have to figure out
where they want to do the trialat because frankly, the people who live
in Delphi have been deluged with informationabout this case for the last five and
(20:40):
a half years. I'm not sureyou could even find an impartial jury there.
And I will say, you know, he does have the right to
a speedy trial, but the defendantin a case like this would also,
we imagine, probably want to waivethat to a certain extent as they build
up their own defense and have theirdefense attorneys get their own investigations trying to
find out, you know, evidencethat maybe points away from them. So
(21:03):
it's it's very complicated, but wekind of imagine that it's not going to
be In March. A couple ofdifferent things that have come out of this
or events that have happened, thejudge that was involved in the case willingly
withdrew from with being in that thoseactivities. And then the second part of
that, like you said, hechose a public defender, but that was
(21:23):
not the original thing, right,He was going to seek that but couldn't
afford it. No, it's expensive. So what do we know about this
judge that exited, the judge thatentered, and then these do we know
anything about the public defenders at all? Yeah? So the judge who exited,
Judge Benjamin Deaner, is the circuitcourt judge in Carroll County. There
were some troubling indications that all wasnot well in that court. He sent
(21:48):
emails on which he seemingly accidentally ceasedmedia talking about how overwhelmed he was and
how much he didn't feel Carroll Countycould handle this released a very pointed and
injecting my pinion near your bizarre opinionabout that was just a transfer order.
It was just all you had todo was say, okay, I can
you can transfer Alan to the Departmentof Corrections. But he went on this
(22:08):
whole rant. He became like amedia critic. It was talking about,
you know, the blood lust ofthe public, and it was just,
I mean, it was a lot, you know what we were hearing behind
the scenes was sort of indicated that, like, this might not be the
judge for this, because I don'tknow, something so high profile. You
want somebody who's going to really beable to handle the pressure. How did
they go about picking the judge inthe first place, just out of curiosity?
(22:30):
Sorry in her up, No,you're fine. It just it just
fell to him. I mean it'sa very small county. I'm pretty sure
that the circuit count the circuit courtwould just be the judge that you would
go to for a murder like this. And we were very we were very
relieved when he stepped aside. Wethink that was a responsible move if he
didn't feel like he could handle it, And we're glad that it sort of
moved on. And the judge whohas it now is a very experienced judge
(22:52):
who has handled other high profile casesand handle them very well. The case
that comes to mind is she handof one of the cases connected to the
Richmond Hill bombing case, which wasthe case in Indianapolis a while back in
which a person decided to commit insurancefraud by setting up an explosion in their
(23:14):
home and it ended up the explosionended up picking up a big chunk of
our neighborhood. Also a felony murdercase, which is which is also the
case here. So interesting that shehas experience with that and the media.
Yeah, she has a very she'sa very experienced person. So the defense
attorneys are there. Two these menwere appointed by the court. Yeahs as
(23:34):
mister Allen indicated in his letter fromjail, you know, he and his
family cannot afford private council. Sothis is somebody who the judge is basically
going to and saying, I wantyou to take this on. Now.
There's a there's a mister Baldwin who'sactually from out of counties, from you
know, the south of Indianapolis,actually Franklin, and so it's interesting that
(23:55):
he's kind of coming in. Welooked at his kind of my case profilic
some of the cases. He's donea lot of criminal work. I didn't
see any murders, but I didn'treally go back that far, but there's
a lot of serious crimes. Sosomebody who's definitely comfortable in a trial setting,
someone who's definitely comfortable with criminal lawand very much you know, seemingly
has an expertise in that. Sohe's going to be coming in from out
(24:17):
of town, which seems sort ofsignificant because there's such a focus on this
case up up in that neck ofthe woods of Indiana. So this is
somebody who's maybe not having some ofthose local pressures. And then there's a
mister Rossie of Logansport who's kind ofmore in the area, you know,
as a public defender up there.It seems significant and you know, reasonable
(24:37):
that in such a high profile casethere's kind of two people who are coming
together as public defenders, who aregoing to be able to give him the
best defense possible. Because we've beendisheartened to see some people kind of like
criticizing the defense attorneys, and oursystem requires defense attorneys. You can't just
throw somebody to the wolves after they'vebeen you can't try them in the public
sentiment. You can't just say,Okay, looks guilty, so let's throw
(25:00):
them away. He needs the bestdefense. Otherwise, on appeal he could
say that he had incompetent defense lawyers, and the process becomes even more of
an ordeal for the families in thecommunity. So people should not be harassing
the defense attorneys either. On thisThese are public defenders. It is important
to note that not too many peoplewould be able to afford to pay private
(25:22):
attorneys in a case like this.Behind the scenes, we were hearing numbers
that some attorneys were asking for retainersin the multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars.
And that's just to start with.A middle class family would be bankrupted
by this, not to make peoplecould afford something like that. And is
(25:42):
Alan wrote in his letter to thecourt, he obviously is not working since
he's incarcerated, and his wife hasbeen the target of so much harassment,
but she doesn't feel safe to work. So this is a family with no
money coming in and obviously not toomany families would have that kind of savings
to pay for a private attorney.Yeah. Yeah, And I think last
(26:04):
time we spoke, we talked aboutthe Stephen Avery case in Wisconsin. He
had a set he had a bigsettlement that came to him. That's why
he was able to afford a couplepretty good defense lawyers. But in this
case, yeah, the common persondefinitely wouldn't be able to afford that.
We I mean, that's a lotof money, but you're right, everybody
has the right to a fair trial. So is there anything else in this
(26:25):
in this case that's worth noting atthis point. Any information really additionally from
the things that we've talked about thatare a point of interest, I guess
you could say I would say that, you know, this case has always
been plagued by in some cases helpedby speculation. It's gone on for years.
People take the blurry photograph and theysay, well, it looks like
(26:45):
this guy or that guy, andyou know, sometimes they have a decent
case for it. Sometimes it justseems like rank speculation. And at this
point there is a name. Nowthere is a person. So I mean,
I think it's important to focus tipson who is this person? Can
we know about him, who washe hanging out with, what was he
doing, did he ever do anythingbad in the past that maybe didn't get
(27:06):
adjudicated, like what? And soI think people should focus on what we
have now. And I think it'skind of I mean, it's kind of
like the grand irony of this isthat it's been five years. There's been
so much online speculation. We've allbeen running around us, in the media,
people in the communities, people outsidethe communities who care about this case.
(27:27):
And I think it's just kind ofstrangely fitting that no one ever heard
of Alan before. This man hasnot come. We have not talked to
anybody, whether it's in the onlinesleuth community, the media community, nobody
was nobody had this guy in theirnotes even And I think that just kind
(27:47):
of shows you that sometimes the realitiesof an investigation are so different than what
we can conjecture on the outside.And I think that's just an important thing
to remember in any case, butespecially this case going forward, and you
know, we're going to be certainlytrying to get answers, members of the
media, members of you know,the citizens sleuths to kind of look into
this. But it's just a goodkind of reminder that, you know,
(28:08):
sometimes it's the it's the thing youdon't expect that's going to turn out to
be the most important thing. Yeah, on all reference, one of the
most intriguing I think things that I'veresearched, the Golden State Killer, right
like that wasn't hundreds of individuals overforty years brought for the internet investigative people
then that guy wasn't on anybody's radar, but it all made sense when it
(28:32):
played out. So we'll be curiousto see what they what information comes out
of this, and we might notknow for a while. My last question
for you, do you feel moreunderstanding at this point, Not that you
weren't in the first place, butdo you feel more understanding and should others
that this is maybe why they heldit so close to him and didn't give
much information to the public. UmNo, And I'm going to tell you
why this is speculation. But Ithink when people say, well, the
(28:56):
police must just been pulling a longcon and doing like your investigation on this
one person, I don't think thatthat's what happened here. I think he
came up early, and he cameup again recently, and so I think
a lot of the secrecy still thereshould be some ultimately accountability and accounting for
that. Now that being said,keeping the probable cause sealed, I guess
(29:21):
that will just depend on what's init, although it sounds at this point
like law enforcements sort of backing offthe claim that it's really important to keep
it sealed, So we'll see whathappens with that. There's always reason to
keep things secret in an investigation,and I think if you have cautious investigators,
it makes it makes them want tokeep things secret. Because you can
always undo that by going public,but once you go public, you can
(29:41):
never undo that it's already public.So I think we can understand the level
of caution that they've treated this casewith. But frankly, I think at
some time, at some point,it has to be acknowledged that maybe some
of the secrecy did kind of spura lot of the online obsession and online
sleuthing and frankly, online harassment ofpeople who are innocent parties, including the
(30:02):
family members of the victims. SoI think we would still kind of take
some issue with the secrecy, butin certain select instances in this case,
it's certainly justified. So we're notjust saying, oh, shine a light
on everything, because obviously that couldbe harmful to the case. If that
makes sense, makes perfect sense,because when this all plays out, there's
(30:22):
more than one, there's more thantwo victims. It's a lose lose for
everybody, like you who said earlier, including his family. I do want
to note that, regardless of theoutcome or anything, I think myself and
a lot of other people really appreciatethe work that you've done on the Murder
Sheet podcast. I recommend everybody tocheck it out. But seriously, the
things that you've uncovered are significant forus to realize as a society, for
(30:45):
us to realize as citizens. Evenif it has nothing to do with anything,
the work that you've done is verysignificant, and I just wanted to
make sure I personally told you guysthat and in front of everybody. Thank
you very much. It's really sweet. Thank you so much. It means
a lot. Yeah, it doesabsolutely, and hey, we'll catch you
back up again, and as always, I appreciate talking to you and everybody.
Check out the Murder Sheet podcast.Thank you so much. Thank you
(31:11):
for listening to this episode of IndianaStories. If you like what you heard,
you can go to Indiana Stories dotcom for more episodes and other stories
relating to Indiana. Also, ifyou're enjoying this podcast, there's several things
you can follow, the podcast itself, the newsletter, and various other things.
Thanks again for listening, and wewill be back with another episode and
I hope you join us for anotherIndiana Story. He and the question is
(32:00):
do I stay here? Will yoube back? Are you gonna come back?
Will you be back? Are youcoming back
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