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March 8, 2022 24 mins
Tony and Fred’s negotiations heat up as WIBC and Indianapolis detectives contemplate the ramifications of letting a hostage-taker air his personal grievances live on the radio.

Starring: Jon Hamm, Joe Perrino, Dylan Baker, Carla Gugino and Becky Ann Baker
Directed by: Shawn Christensen
Written by: CD Carpenter
Mark as Played
Transcript

Episode Transcript

Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:04):
American Hostage is an Amazon Original andCriminal Content production. This podcast is based
on a true story of a hostagecrisis that took place in Indianapolis in nineteen
seventy seven. Listener discretion is advised. Episode two, The Man with the
Microphone Radio indian A w I DCCI. Everybody get out of his way in

(00:57):
the office of Good Game. Americawas built on values, on ideas and
ideals, truth, liberty, andapple pie. But somewhere by the people
for the people became twisted by themedia that the noblest institution which was meant
to connect us and unite us asa nation. But it was a circus,

(01:17):
of course, and you either watchedit with fascination or you became part
of it. Waitnute, what thehell do you mean You've already talked to
him. You've been calling us NonStopfor the past hour. Yeah, Fred,
because he's a psychopath, and nowyou've engaged directly with us. Jim,
he wants me to interview him,Fred, yep, not Now.

(01:40):
I just wanted to tell Fred thatLeo Malone's on his way to the station,
right, thank you. How muchtime before we have to get back
to him? He said? Wehave an hour to tell him our decision.
I can't believe you took that call. Well, I'm sorry, Jim.
What's done is done. You don'thave any idea what you've done.
What was I supposed to do?Jim? What were you supposed to do?
Are you asking for a list ofethical responses to this Christ? Because

(02:00):
I can assure you calling Tony Kuritzuswouldn't make my top fucking damn. Why
are we calling Tony Curitzus? Wearen't. Fred already did for a quote.
No, not for a quote.He wants to put him on the
air. He's demanding to be puton the air. Why does he want
us? He's a fan. Idon't know. No, I got us
an in with this fan? Arefull of shit? Fred? Have you

(02:23):
seen this guy in action? Haveyou have you heard him speak in public?
Doesn't trust the system, but heneeds an outlet. That outlet is
us, Fred. Every other wordhe speaks is fucker shit. Look you
see this? You get the fuckaway from me, motherfucker? Are you
looking for an opening in the resNo opening? You don't get me?
Which has been playing it on aloop all day? Wish is getting away

(02:43):
with it? Then why can't weknow I talked to Dale Simpson at WISH
earlier. They aren't getting away withit. Take a good look at that
contraption around Dick Hall's neck. Fred, you don't build a death machine for
a negotiation. And we're talking likeDick Hall is already dead. Dick Hall
is dead. Oh he isn't.His brains haven't left the building yet,
but they're on their way. Ihave been at WIBC for twenty years.

(03:05):
Jim, here we go a spingle. One of your predecessors would have sat
on this. All right, Fred, I'm gonna be perfectly blunt. Speaking
directly to the hostage taker is adisaster of epic proportion. Look, we
can sit around and debate the ethicsof what I did, or we can
get to the business of saving aman's life. As the station manager.
The choice is yours. Oh hecan't do it live. The compromise is

(03:30):
we record it now, push itto the eleventh slot. I don't see
trigger happy Tony reacting well to gettingthe graveyard shift. He's lucky we're entertaining
any of this at all. He'slucky. Look Sally's right. I don't
want to do anything that's going topiss him off. He wants it live.
I think we should give it toYou can't negotiate with this guy,
Fred, all right, let's goover the scenarios. All right. Number

(03:52):
one, he kills him on theair. Okay, we'll be shut down,
liable on numerous levels. All right. Number two. Number two turns
out to be a pleasant guy,listens to reason, he lets the hostage
go. Everybody wins. Number three, Number three, he doesn't kill him,
but he doesn't let him go.Then what does Fred Heckman just keep

(04:15):
waiting by the phone for hours,for days. This is the job,
that's the contract we meet. You'remaking yourself the story, Fred, Jim.
I'm trying to do the right thing. Here we are Dick Hall's best
shot at survival. All right,now we're here, Fred, you're at

(04:35):
the station. And let's be clear, you're skipping a lot more than just
an anniversary. This could be hours, this could be days. What are
you gonna tell Barbara? I dope, you can call her from my phone.

(04:58):
You got your story, Fred,I'm just not sure you understand the
price. Okay, books, wegot an update. Hey, hey,
now listening up. Heckman Resident honey, it's me really, yeah, sweetheart,

(05:29):
there's um, it's been a developmentin that Tony curtsis ordeal M.
Did he shoot him? No,no, he didn't shoot him. He
he called the office. He calledthe office and someone picked that phone up.
Well, yeah, someone had topick it up. Well picked it

(05:49):
up for him. You know.It turns out he's a listener, loyal
listener, and he wants me tointerview him. You can't go down there,
the news says he's got his apartmentbuilding wire. No no, no,
no no no. I wouldn't godown there. I'd do it from
here, but they you know,this is where they need me, and

(06:13):
there's no way of knowing for Howlong are you upset? I don't think
you know what you're getting yourself into. Fred, Oh my god, you're
not wrong. There is there anybodyelse? It doesn't look like it.
I see. Well, Um,you know I can't be upset. You

(06:39):
know I'll make it up to you. Yeah. We're always making up the
time we've got by the time wedon't. Are you coming home as soon
as I can, be careful?Fred? I love you, honey,
I love you too. Red onthe loans here, okay, thank you,

(07:04):
Salad. He doesn't this might notbe a little friend that correct wet
from friends and relative throwing your runand right point gentlemen, Fred, this

(07:25):
is Detective Leo Malone. Right.We spoke on the phone, Detective Balloon.
Fred. Just call me Leo please. Leo was the first one on
the scene this morning. Hell butthink I tell you both what, I've
never seen anything like it. Guys, we need to jump right into it.
Leo. You know about the call, right right? Yeah? So

(07:46):
what do we need to be doingto do this straight? You know,
if I'm being honest, I wouldn'tentertain this because it's only gonna bite us
in the ass. Well, Leo, we all already said we'd get back
to him within the hour. Yeah, yeah, I wouldn't have done that.
Well we did, yeah, Freddid? So is there another move
here? I'm sorry, we gotabout fifteen minutes left to call. What

(08:09):
does he want, Leo? Well, here's what we know from Dick Hall's
father Bronson. Apparently, Dick andBronson had been working with Tony for a
few years now and had loaned himsome money to fix up a plot of
land that Tony was going to tryand turn into a strip mall. Tony
couldn't. The Halls needed their moneyback, Tony didn't have it, and
here we are. Well that seemspretty cutting dry. Yeah. You tell

(08:33):
all of that to Tony and hegoes off saying it's not the whole story
and they were cheating them the wholetime, but he won't give us anything
new or different. Well, myunderstanding is that this is the stuff that
Tony Woods aired out in the interview. Well, let me stop you right
there, Fred, there is nounderstanding Tony kuritzs. I've been talking to

(08:54):
him through walls and following them aroundin a blizzard since eight this morning.
His mouth never stops moving and nota single coherent word comes out. So
don't go in making any kind ofassumptions because they're not going to play.
I mean, the more I thinkabout it, the more nervous I get.
Leo, we're at your discretion onthis. You're the expert. I'm

(09:16):
no expert. I've never encountered anythinglike this. Where is Dick's father on
vacation in Florida lucked out? It'sgoing to be him walking around with a
shotgun tied to his neck. Doyou think Tony likes you? Does he
like me? Yeah? Can youget a read on how he feels about
you and the police? He likesme as far as I haven't fucked it

(09:41):
all up. I mean, hekeeps saying how much respect he has for
cops and then he calls a sleepyeyed motherfucker's which I guess is anti Semitic
or something. All right, whatdo we not need to be saying to
him? What have you talked aboutthat set him off? Oh, don't
say anything about his father? Blowsup when you talk about his father.

(10:03):
Okay, Well, what else doeshe have? Any family he does like
or anyone we could talk to.We're flying his brother, Stephen in from
Brown County right now? Does helike his brother? I guess we're gonna
find out. Leo, tell itto us straight. Should we do this?
I think Dick Halls as good asdead, So what could it hurt?

(10:26):
Okay, Jim, I guess weshould figure out the logistics of that
interview. You need to you needto convince him that we can't do it
live. Give us an hour ortwo to edit it. We can shave
off some of the language, maybekeep our listeners running into the Hills.

(10:48):
God forbid he doesn't blow Dick's headoff in the middle of it all.
Okay, Leo, will you stayin the room with Fred. We'd appreciate
your insight. Sure I can dothat. I had Jane set everything up
for you in the studio. Fred. It's uh, it's good to go.
Okay, Uh, all right,I'll we'll get to it. You

(11:39):
got it, Fred, Yes,sir, I got it. Thank you.
Leo. Hello, Tony, it'sFred Heckman. Tell you what.
I'm glad you called. I'm sorry, can't play cars for shit. I

(12:01):
don't know if he's losing. Ican't hear you too well, I said,
I'm glad you call because Dick can'tplay cards for shit. I don't
know if he's losing on purpose ornot, but I hope so, because
I don't see how you can beso shit at cards. Otherwise are you
playing cards? So things are goingokay, They're as good as they can
be with all of this, misterHickman, I still have to talk to
Dick and cops all day. AndI tell you what, I got a
lot of respect for cops, butthese wonder dumby shit. They yeah,

(12:24):
they're little jos silly, but theydon't say shit. Well, I think
they do want to help those pigs. Just get me hopping mad. Now
we're going to do this interview,mister Hickman. I got it all written
out. Everything I want to say, everything I need to say. I
got it right here, right here, in my pocket, right here.
Well, Tony, I did.I did talk to my guys here at

(12:45):
the station about your request, yep, and they think it's okay and they've
given us the go ahead. Butwe do have to talk a bit about
just how it's all going to happen. Hey, Hey, I can tell
that you're gonna ask me all thequestions I want you to ask me,
and I'm gonna answer them. Well, what we talked about over here was

(13:07):
doing the interview now and then playingat tonight at eleven, so you'll get
the last broadcast of the night,Tony, Tony. You there. No,
that doesn't fly. Well, it'sa good slot, I mean that
doesn't fly. God damn it.Now, I told you that I don't
like to repeat myself, mister Heckman, and you're gonna make me repeat hold

(13:31):
on there too. Number one.I said I wanted my interview live live.
Do you understand what that means?I know you understand what that means,
So why the fun do I haveto ask that stupid question? Tony,
Let's just take a step while I'mnot doing an eleven o'clock time slot,
because the time isn't worth a hooker'stake. It's a goddamn Tuesday night
and everyone I know goes to sleepat ten pm. This is a working
town and no nonsense town, andthere isn't anybody up at eleven pm doing

(13:52):
anything. Have them talking out?Okay, now, Tony, hang on,
hang on, just hang on.I understand your concern about the about
the time slot. Now can youcan you talk to me about about why
you think it needs to be live? Because I know you can edit that
shit and make me say anything.I know I can say the whole goddamn

(14:13):
English language and you'll cut it andspice it together and make me sound like
a goddamn nut job. I knowyou can make it so that I'll say,
I'm gonna kill this fucker. Andwhat they're here is, I'm sorry,
I'm just an old crazy man.But I'm not crazy, and I'm
not old. I'm forty four,fucking years young, and I broke my
back to get here and make somethingfor myself in this country. Tony,
Look, we simply don't have thetechnology to do what you're you're saying.

(14:37):
I mean, we like to thinkwe're the best at what we do,
but we're still a humble little station. We're not. We're not the movies.
Get them to talk about that.Do you like movies? Tony?
What last movie I saw in thetheater? It was a Goldfinger and it
was the worst thing I ever seenin my life. You don't like James
Bond, Tony. He can't keephis goddamn shirt on to save his life.

(15:00):
Okay, well what do you Whatis it you like then, Tony?
Did do you like John Wayne?No? I do not like John
Wayne movies. Put in all thateffort to dry and make me like someone
who can't shoot straight. It lookslike shit on a horse. I don't
understand it. Well, now youknow there's a new James Bond. Now
we see what. Now there's anew James Bond, A new actor plays

(15:20):
him. Does he take his shirtoff sometimes? Then I don't give a
shit. Okay, Okay, soyou don't like James Bond and you don't
like John Wayne. No, Idon't, But my father liked John Wayne.
Oh is that right? Well,what do you like? He took
me to see The Searchers four timesin theaters. Most boring fucking thing ever

(15:41):
seen in my life. And Iwas twenty three or twenty four at a
time. But he just can't leaveme the fuck alone. He was a
controlling, desperate, sad piece ofshit. You ever seen in The Searchers
from this? Yeah, yeah,I've seen it. What did you think?
Well, honestly, I don't remembermuch of it. That's because it's
shit. He didn't have any tastein anything. He knew how to break

(16:02):
my back and bust my ass,and that's the only thing he was good
at. Well, okay, Tony, you know what, Why don't we
talk about about the interview again?I didn't mean to get you off.
Of course, I want it liveand I want people to hear it.
Fred two things to request. Idon't see what's so hard about that?
Well, Tony, honestly, wethink there might be an issue with the

(16:23):
language if we agree to do thislive. What do you mean, Well,
you've got a very colorful vocabulary tome. I'm sorry about that.
Well, it's okay, but wewe can't put those kind of words out
there. You can understand, well, I won't say them then, okay,

(16:44):
Tony, but we wouldn't. Wewouldn't want you to feel inhibited.
He did, well, I wouldn'tfeeling inhibited. I won't say any stupid
shit. I understand that there's goingto be kids listening. I want to
protect kids too. I want toprotect their innocence and their sensibilities. It's
important that they listen because I feelbad about this. But I'm mad and
I deserve to be mad. Andthis is the thing. Why don't you

(17:04):
tell me just what this is?These people at an Astor House and fuck
the Hall Corporation, they played godand lost. I'm a man that's fighting
for everything out owned. Sir.Do you have a wife and family,
fred? I sure do, Tony. How many kids you got we have
five? How old are they Fred? Well, they range an age between

(17:26):
twelve and twenty eight. Do youlove them? You better believe I do.
Let's say somebody set you up andthey said, we're gonna take your
car, we're gonna take your house, we're gonna take your wife, and
we're gonna take your children and thenthey're gonna laugh at you. Fred,
would you be ready to kill Heckman? Well, i'd be offering that,
sir. Would you be ready tokill Heckman? I don't know if i'd

(17:51):
be ready, But don't lie.Don't lie? Why would you lie?
You kill in a minute. Theyhave ruined my life. But I'm a
mean motherfucker baby in the ant canintimidate me, they ain't cann't humiliate me,
Tony, Tony, let's just look. I want to get your side
on all of this, Okay,can I get your side? I'm gonna
tell you what, and I'm gonnatell you right now. Fred, you

(18:11):
talk to wherever you need to talkto you over there. But I want
this interview and I want it myway, and that means I want it
live and I want it heard now. I don't know who you have to
talk to you over there and makethat happen, But you make it happen,
or dick slash me. You willbe two slugsters, two fronteeth.
Calm him down right now? Who'sthat? Fred? Who's that? Just
seeing your name right now? Thatwas my producer, Tony. He just

(18:34):
poked in his head to tell memy wife's calling. No, she know
you're talking to me, Yes,she does. What does she think about
that? Well, to be honestwith you, Tony, she wishes it
weren't happening tonight. It's our anniversary. Oh is that right? Yes,

(18:57):
sir, that is right. WellI didn't know that. That's that's okay,
Tony. No, No, it'snot okay, it's not okay.
Maybe I would. I would havegiven it another shot and another day if
i'd known. I never been married, mister Rickman, and I never gone
steady. But I know that awoman's a beautiful thing that you have to

(19:18):
be loyal to. I'm sorry aboutthat, Fred. Well, that's that's
that's that's okay, Tony. Wewe've all got something going on, Yes,
sir, we do, Tony.Let me ask you what's was I
always a part of your plan here? Yes, sir, you're the best

(19:41):
in the business, Fred, justlike I'm the best in the business.
And I tell you what, I'vebeen here and all these reports all day,
and every one of them calls mecrazy, every one of them calls
me mentally ill. And that's thebiggest live ever heard in my life.
I have every single one of myfaculties, and I have each one sharp
as attack. I am not insane. I do not need psychological probing,

(20:02):
and I do not need to becounseled for my course of action. I
am a man, a band madnesshell, who had everything taken away from
me, and I am fighting.You say don't know when to fight.
I know how to fight. Iknow how to rig up a shotgun,
and I know how to rig upa bomb. And I'll say it right
now, this was a premeditated act. I'll say that because I know,
I know, I got cops rightoutside who keep telling me I can get

(20:23):
out of this if I plead insanityand I am not. All right,
Tony, all right, I believeyou. I believe you. I think
you are well aware of what you'redoing. That's right, Okay, then,
Tony, if I can, ifI can have a little more time,
I can, I can try anddo some more negotiating for you on

(20:45):
on doing the interview live. Well, I appreciate that. Fred. Can
I talk to Dick real quick?Yep, Yes, sir, it's Fred,
mister Heckman, it's Dick Hole,Yes, sir. I just wanted

(21:07):
to let you know we're here andwe're doing everything we can and it's all
gonna work out. Will you callmy wife for me, mister Heckman,
I certainly can do that. Whatwould you like me to say? Just
tell her that I love her?Yeah, yeah, I can do that,

(21:33):
Dick, Thank you, sir.You call me soon. Fred,
don't leave me waiting now you're here. We won't Tony. He's a sick
son of a bitch, an't he. I'm gonna go talk to Jim.

(21:57):
How do you feel about it?I don't feel good, Leo, I
do not feel good. Next timeon American Hostage. Yeah about the enter

(22:21):
a building? Why I would boudif you want to have this conversation like
men, you've got to bring meto your level. I want them to
say they feeded me. What welove is if you could talk with us
after you release mister Hall. Nowyou're respecting to your listener. You're going
to work with these creeds. OhGod give them peace? What are you
praying for? My wife? Mykids? Do what you forgot about yourself?

(22:48):
American Hostage is an Amazon original andCriminal Content production written by C.
D. Carpenter, directed by SeanChristiansen, produced by Adam Volerich and Brendan
Hubbard. Executive produced by John Hamm, Sean Christiansen and Gabriel Mason, starring
John Hamm, Carla Gugino, JoePerino, Dylan Baker, and Becky Anne

(23:14):
Baker, with additional performances by JamesO'Connor. Sound designed by Brandon Jones,
composed by Darren Morsey, editing byThomas Beach, Sean Christiansen and Adam Volerich.
Recording and engineering by Dave Williams,Mixing, mastering and additional editing by
Nick Massidi. I d Reads byNatalie Prass for Amazon Music. Executive producers

(23:38):
are Morgan Jones and Dave Easton.Senior producer is Eliza Mills. Special thanks
to Jacob Braunstein, Phil Sanchez,Chris Davis, Jack Parker, Marcellino,
Vlpondo, Stephanie Walknein Blad, NormanVanessa Rebert, Sam Petherbridge, Cale Bittner,

(24:03):
Alice Zoe, Trevor McNeil ty,Jacobsen, Rich Sherman Marshall, Louie
w IBC, WISH TV, andCreative Artists Agency,
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