March 7, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode, Matt Davis, ALC, an Accredited Land Consultant with Cushman & Wakefield in Southern California and the newly elected Vice President of the Realtors Land Institute (RLI), joins us for an insightful discussion on the future of land sales, leadership in the industry, and the evolving landscape of land use.
We cover:
✅ Matt’s journey in land sales and his vision for RLI.
✅ What his new leadership role means for land professionals nationwide.
✅ The growing influence of alternative energy on land values and use.
✅ Challenges and opportunities in today’s evolving land market.
✅ How RLI is advocating for property rights and shaping national policy.
As renewable energy projects continue expanding, how should landowners and investors prepare for the shift? We break it all down in this must-listen episode!
Contact Matt @ https://www.cushmanwakefield.com/en/u...
🔗 Subscribe for more land insights!
📢 Follow us on social media for updates:
🌍 Learn more at: www.americanlandseller.com
#LandSales #RealtorsLandInstitute #LandBroker #RealEstate #AlternativeEnergy #RenewableEnergy #FarmAndRanch #CommercialRealEstate #AmericanLandSellerPodcast
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Today on the American Land Seller, our guest is Matt
Davis, a powerhouse in landadvisory and investment strategy
.
Matt has been with CushmanWakefield since 2008, where he
specializes in the dispositionand acquisition of land and
investment assets across NorthAmerica.
He's the platform leader ofCushman Wakefield's Land
(00:21):
Advisory Group, heading anational team that delivers
creative solutions foreverything from master-planned
communities and agriculture landto industrial development and
renewable energy projects.
Over his career, matt hastransacted over 155,000 acres
for a diverse range of uses,making a significant impact in
(00:43):
the industry.
As an accredited land consultant, alc, matt's expertise and
leadership in land brokerage areundeniable.
His dedication to the industryis further reflected in his
active involvement with theRealtors Land Institute.
Since joining RLI in 2018, hehas served on key committees,
(01:04):
chaired the Government AffairsCommittee and even led as 2024
President of the Western StatesChapter, representing six states
.
His accolades include beingnamed the RLI Rising Star in
2019, commercial Land Broker ofthe Year in 2020, and member of
the Apex Top Producers Club from2018 through 2023.
(01:25):
With a Bachelor's of Science inReal Estate from San Diego
State University, matt brings adeep understanding of land
transactions, market trends andinvestment strategies.
His passion for the landcoupled with his leadership in
shaping the future of landbrokerage makes him an
invaluable guest today.
So get ready to dive intoinsightful discussion with Matt
(01:46):
Davis right here on the AmericanLand Seller Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Welcome to the American Land Seller Podcast
with your host, kobe Rickardson.
Kobe is an accredited landconsultant and multi-state land
broker with High Point LandCompany.
Join us each week as we exploreall things land.
We bring you fresh insights andexpert guests on sales,
marketing, regulations,economics and so much more.
(02:11):
Visit wwwamericanlandsellercomand find us on one of your
favorite podcast platforms.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, Kobe and our special guests, let's get
started.
Okay, Kobe and our specialguests, let's get started.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Hey, welcome back to the Land Seller Podcast.
This is an exciting day.
We're joined by Matt Davis.
He is an accredited landconsultant with Cushman and
Wakefield out of SouthernCalifornia.
Matt, how are you today Doingwell, man, how are you Doing
great?
I can't complain at all.
I am a little jealous.
You're kind of the San Diego, Ithink.
(02:47):
Man, how are you Doing great?
I can't complain at all.
I am a little jealous.
You're kind of the San Diego, Ithink right is where you're at,
matt.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
So, like you have just like the absolute perfect
weather all year round.
Weather's great.
No land to sell.
So we got to go out of town tosell any dirt.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, I did know that too, but no, it's a pretty.
My son was stationed down therewhen he was in the Marines and
so we got to go visit severaltimes and it was just absolutely
beautiful there.
So good for you.
You don't have the snow andstuff to deal with like we do
here in Nebraska, but anyway.
So, matt, let's talk just alittle bit about, like.
(03:21):
Just recently, you uh, you wereselected to be the vice
president for realtors landinstitute.
Anybody that listens to thispodcast knows we're huge fans of
all the guys at the realtorsland institute.
Let's talk just a little bit inthe beginning here about uh,
what's that look like?
Uh, what's your path now?
Congratulations.
Of course, you know that we'reexcited for your leadership, but
(03:43):
uh, where do you go from here?
When do you start and what'sthat look like?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, I appreciate that Super exciting and glad to
be kind of stepping into theleadership chairs for the
organization.
Term officially starts, youknow, 2025.
(04:09):
So it's a four-year commitmentvice president, incoming
president and then president andimmediate past president.
So I've signed up for fouryears of leadership at RLI and
got a great you know slate ofguys I'll be working with
stepping into the VP position.
So excited for thatcollaboration and I think you
know the organization's been onsuch a great track the last
number of years.
(04:29):
Staff's phenomenal.
And I think primary goal as Ikind of move into that
leadership position with RLI iskeep it on the path that it's on
and continue to leverage arelationship with National
Association of Realtors andreally be the voice of land out
there, making sure that inWashington we're doing as much
(04:54):
as we can to protect propertyowners' rights and industry in
general.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, it's funny you should say that because, like as
a land real estate professional, okay, so the Realtors
Association really is not theassociation as a whole.
Right, it's not really thebiggest advantage for us land
folks you know commercial peopleand land people but with all
(05:20):
that's happened recently I thinkthat you know you mentioned
this like one of the things thatis really important about the
Re realtors is our voice inWashington.
Right, and I know that you'reyou have been the government
affairs chair for RLI for thelast few years.
Talk just a little bit aboutwhat specifically is RLI's
government affairs committeekind of focused on as far as
(05:43):
what are we watching?
What are watching?
I was on the committee with youI'm not this year, but I was
for two or three years beforethat and so it's just
fascinating what we're watchingand how important that voice is
when it comes to not justlandowners but property owners
in general.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Yeah, as you kind of mentioned, nar, national
Association of Realtors isn'tnecessarily land-focused as an
organization, but it's a massiveorganization that does carry a
lot of weight and horsepower inWashington, just given the size
and number of people that aremembers.
And set the whole commissionthing aside, as far as what's
happened there, it's still animportant and powerful
(06:21):
organization and it's got a loudvoice and they've recognized
that.
As a commercial member underNAR, rli represents the experts
and has the expertise to speakto land issues in Washington and
so we've been able to reallyleverage that relationship and
(06:41):
the horsepower that NAR bringsand the voice that it has in
Washington to be impactful inWashington and so some of the
things we've been working on.
You know, it seems like everycouple of years the 1031
exchange is under threat.
That impacts everybody in realestate.
But we've been good advocatesfor that.
We worked with theenvironmental organizations who
(07:03):
use it to acquire land forconservation.
It's a big part of what they do.
So anytime you get, you know,real estate professionals,
environmentalists on the samepage, it's usually a pretty
scary situation and so it doescarry a lot of weight to kind of
form those collaborations andrelationships.
Wotus Waters of the US has beena big one.
(07:24):
You know We've had three WOTUSrules, one under each of the
last presidents, so it's beenkind of a ping pong back and
forth of trying to figure outwhat's going on and making sure
it's not overreaching.
So there's been a lot oflitigation there that RLI has
been part of.
They're actually a plaintiff inone of the cases and so again
(07:48):
joint coalition just advocatingfor property owners' rights as
it relates to waters of the US,and really that's anything that
could be even a seasonal streamcould get folded under WOTUS and
just means that anything thatcould impact that stream now is
a federal issue, the open fieldsdoctrine.
A lot of people don't know that.
(08:10):
You know illegal or unlawfulsearch and seizure doesn't
necessarily apply to your, yourproperty beyond your home.
So if you have acreage everystate's a little different, and
so RLI has been writing amicusbriefs and involved in a number
of cases across the country.
Most recently we weresuccessful in Tennessee in
(08:34):
protecting and helping kind ofexpand those rights beyond the
structure itself to the propertyboundaries, property boundaries
so a lot of impactful stuff forproperty owners, also
advocating on behalf of theprofessionals themselves and in
the business with things like1031s.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, that's.
I mean and I think that youknow there's a lot of people
that don't really understandthat that when you're looking at
all, the all of the tax taxingentities in the all of the tax
taxing entities in the, you know, at the state, local, federal
government has it, it's justthat big number from what the
(09:11):
savings is from the 1031exchanges.
It's just real tempting forlawmakers to go man, that seems
like a real simple, you know,like that should be an easy, um,
easy one to fix.
We'll just tie that up and getrid of that.
In reality I don't know howmuch.
I just don't think there'sgoing to be a whole lot of land
changing hands if you didn'thave that 1031 exchange.
(09:32):
I mean, is that kind of yourfeeling too?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yeah, it could definitely freeze the
marketplace from a transactionstandpoint.
You'd likely end up with aflurry of activity in advance of
a change like that, as peopletry to get ahead of it, but then
you'd have a total trough ofactivity.
One of the best kind ofarguments for retaining it that
I've heard, and part of theproblem, is you're dealing with
(09:56):
staffers a lot of times andfolks that don't own property.
They've never participated init that 31 like kind exchange,
so they just don't havefamiliarity with it or a real
understanding.
But most of them have 401ks andso explaining to them the
deferred tax benefit of a 401kis very similar to the deferred
(10:18):
tax benefit of a 1031 exchangefor property, and so it
accomplishes the same purchaseor purpose, right, it allows you
to grow your wealth over timeand as you cash out at a later
point in time, you pay taxes,right, and so, um, it's uh, when
you kind of explain it in termsthat that are familiar and they
(10:39):
understand, sometimes we get abetter, better result.
But so far, so good.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yep, now, like I said , it just seems like you're
right.
Every couple of years thatseems to be the solution that
the lawmakers want to use.
It's like, oh, we'll fix taxes,we'll just get rid of this big
monster, and then we'll gain awhole bunch of money.
Close the loophole.
Yeah, close the loophole, whichreally isn't a loophole, I
(11:17):
don't think.
And then again I don't think wementioned it.
But the flood insurance, thatis another one that seems like
it's on the chopping block quiteevery time it comes up solution
.
You know, we kind of still haveto keep that program limping
along, just to kind of toprotect landowners and property
owners in those floodplain areas, and so yeah, that's a great
one.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
The insurance topic is one that RLI has weighed in
on quite a bit lately Floodinsurance specifically.
We're starting to talk aboutfire insurance out west.
All of those are kind of timelytopics.
As we deal with, it seems likemore extreme weather patterns.
That's smart.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
But no well, matt, we're about 10 minutes here.
Let's just take a real quickbreak, if you don't mind, and
we'll just come back.
I do want to pick your brain alittle bit on the energy use on
land and stuff like that, if youdon't mind, because I know
you're kind of an expert in thatarea and so I'm really
fascinated with how that works.
So if you have a second, canyou come back after a break here
(12:15):
?
Absolutely, All right, we'll beright back.
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(12:35):
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Okay, we're back here with MattDavis, accredited land
(12:59):
consultant.
Matt, you know we talked alittle bit before we started
this today um, about um.
You kind of have become a guruin the world of like um, helping
people find you know and workthrough um, like renewable
energy on land and stuff likethat.
Talk just a little bit abouthow.
First of all, how did you kindof get into that?
(13:19):
Is that something that yourcompany kind of threw a file on
your desk and said figure thisout, matt.
Or or how did you get intomaybe kind of working a file on
your desk and said figure thisout, matt.
Or how did you get into maybekind of working with renewable
energy and land purchases?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
at least it's funny.
I had an interest in landcoming out of college.
I wanted to be a real estatedeveloper and then I kind of
fell into the brokerage worldand just more traditional
commercial brokerage.
And it was in 2009 where I wascoming out of the great
financial crisis trying tofigure out what I was going to
do with my life, and I had acolleague who had a relationship
(13:50):
with a guy that had gone towork for a solar company and
they wanted to do some siteselection for solar projects and
they wanted a young guy topound the pavement and help them
find dirt.
And the region they werelooking in is kind of close to
where I grew up and so theytapped me and so really it was
my first land assignment.
It's kind of what got me intothe land business.
(14:11):
The guy I ended up partneringwith on that assignment was kind
of an old, grizzled land brokerwho had done a lot of
residential development land andthings like that across
Southern California, and so wewent out and became site
selection experts for renewableenergy projects.
Some of those never got built.
It was kind of early days andultimately kind of a tumultuous
(14:34):
time in renewable energy from aproject development standpoint.
But it kind of laid thefoundation for my land career
going forward.
So we've been doing renewablesa long time as long as I've been
doing land, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
What is the right now ?
Like, what's the hot thing withrenewables?
I know like I don't get to playin it too terribly much just
because Nebraska is a Nebraska'sthe state in the state of
Nebraska, I would say.
So what are the investors kindof thinking as the cats meow
(15:19):
right now when it comes torenewable?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
energy.
It depends heavily on what thesubsidies are.
It's still a fledgling industrythat's heavily subsidized and
so it's really market-by-marketspecific.
But I'd say across the boardbattery energy storage systems
called BESS, b-e-s-s areprobably the most interesting
(15:42):
and still kind of the Wild Westout there as far as activity and
kind of a gold rush mentality.
So we're seeing a lot of thoseacross the country, still seeing
, you know, wind and solarprojects as well, of different
sizes across the country but butbest projects are probably the
most um active at the momentwhat if somebody owns some land
(16:03):
out there like and and wants toconsider that like what is the
pre?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
what's the qualifications for a piece of
property to maybe be consideredfor that particular project?
Speaker 4 (16:16):
So almost the number one criteria is proximity to a
substation.
Because the battery projectsare smaller footprint they may
be anywhere from like an acre toyou know, 50 acres on the maybe
the biggest side.
They're much more sensitive towhat it's going to take to get
the power to the substation.
(16:36):
So actually finding the rightsof way and connecting the
project to the grid Typicallyit's at a substation where you
know a solar project you might,depending on the size of it, you
might go you know miles toconnect to the grid.
But with battery projectsthey're much more sensitive to
the complexity of trying to tieit into the grid.
(16:57):
So land next to a substation isideal and so for anyone that's
got land next to a substation,they should look at whether
there's capacity and whether ithas potential for a battery
project.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Sure.
So you guys I mean Californiawas kind of one of the pioneers,
especially with like wind whenit first came out, and so is
that something that theycontinue to kind of be looking
at finding properties.
I mean, it's kind of to me itseems like you've got.
You've got as much desert asyou do, beautiful land, you know
.
So do you just put solar panelsout in the desert or windmills
(17:34):
out in the desert, and is that,you know, like, do you see a
trend?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
out there.
Yeah, the, the wind projects,like you mentioned, you know.
I mean, some of them have beenthere, I think, probably more
than 50 years, and so what wesee is repowering of old
projects.
They'll come in with newtechnology, you know, leverage
the fact that the land's alreadydisturbed, the connection of
the grid's already there and andbring in new technology that's
more efficient and and canultimately increase the amount
(18:00):
of power being generated.
We've seen that with some ofthe early solar projects as well
.
Uh, come in and basicallyscrape the project and um and
come in with new technology, butleverage that connection to the
grid, which is actually areally expensive and
time-consuming part of thedevelopment process is getting
approval to connect to the grid.
So if you've got a project,that already has.
(18:22):
that that's pretty valuable.
So we're seeing that.
And then, yes, desert we didlike a 10,000-acre solar project
in the Mojave Desert, so prettymassive scale.
And so you're seeing some largeprojects out there as well as
small projects.
And most recently, we've had alot of changes in the water
groundwater regulatoryenvironment in California.
(18:43):
A lot of productiveagricultural land that's now
kind of what I would say haswater security issues.
It doesn't have enough watergoing forward to irrigate all
the acreage.
We're looking at those forpotential solar development.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Does that, and that's kind of an interesting thing
you brought up too, though, withthe water security issues on
this stuff.
Is that affecting your landprices out there, or is it just
kind of turning them into, kindof you just said that are we
pivoting from okay, from okaywell, we're not going to have
avocados anymore.
We're going to turn that into,like, maybe, some sort of energy
production property or yeah,for for land that has.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
You know, since the sustainable groundwater
management act passed in 2014and really started getting
implemented in 2020, we're nowreally seeing, you know, over
the last few years, the changein values and so land that has
quality water rights and haswater security, that land's
maintained value, or you know,modestly increased over time,
(19:44):
just with kind of general trendsin the marketplace, whereas
land that doesn't havesufficient water, the market
value has just fallen off.
I mean, it's pretty drastic.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, that's growing up in farm country, that you
know like.
I just remember back when wewent from anything goes, you
know, probably back in the 80sto, you know, very regulated, no
more new wells for irrigation.
You know you could take yoursurface water rights and lease
(20:14):
them or sell them to Colorado,you know like.
So it's just that water is veryinteresting.
I'll never forget the day that Iwas in Vancouver, british
Columbia, I used to own atrucking company and I was up
there unloading and I wassitting in a place kind of
looking at their little bay areaor whatever it was, and they
(20:34):
had a bunch of oil tankerssitting there and uh, so I asked
the guy it's like, what is withyou got?
Is this a huge oil productionstate?
And he's like, oh no, that'swater.
We're selling water to losangeles.
So they just load, they takeall the glacier water, whatever
the water running off of themountains, and then they load it
into tankers and send it to losangeles.
(20:55):
He goes there.
So I thought, well, that's it.
Now you're exporting water tothe united states.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
It's.
It's an important commodity.
You know it's even on some ofthe renewable projects if they
have water rights.
We're able to monetize those,oftentimes and sell them to
somebody that you know, becausethe renewable projects don't
require a ton of water foroperations and maintenance once
they're built.
You know, construction water isone thing, but ongoing they're
pretty low water usage.
So we've actually taken waterfrom it, was tied to land,
(21:25):
severed it from the land andsold it to districts or other,
you know, agricultural users orpeople that need that water to
continue their operations.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I just announced recently we got another half a
point from interest rates.
Are we seeing out there whereyou're at or where you're
licensed?
I know you're multiple states,like most of us are.
Are you kind of seeing theinterest rates being an issue?
Or we still have quite a bit ofcash players, or have you, have
(21:54):
you guys kind of seen aslowdown when it comes to the
land investment and developmentinvestment?
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, it's, it's, you know it's changed um, return
expectations right, Just basedon the risk free rate of return
uh, coming up, you know kind oftracking with the interest rate
environment.
Um, that tends to affectpeople's expectations of what
they're going to get on farmlandreturns and even renewable
energy returns.
I mean their capital stack haschanged and their cost of
(22:21):
capital is different than it wasand despite subsidies and
things like that, it can stillbe difficult to make a project
pencil.
So I mean the easy answer isyes.
You know interest rates haveimpacted the market.
I think you know everyone'skind of been waiting with bated
breath to get through theelection here and optimistic the
rates were coming down throughthe end of the year and
(22:42):
obviously that's happening.
So we'll see.
You know, as the Fed dropstheir rate, you know I doubt
we'll see a one-to-one decreasein the the mortgage market, but
if it helps decrease that uh,that cost of capital a little
bit, it'll be helpful.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I I, I am like the, I know like economics for dummies
, like realistically basiceconomics, but I really have a
hard time trying to figure outhow we can get the economy under
control if you continue to havelow interest rates.
You know, like that, I thinkthere has to be a point where we
kind of have to spend sixmonths or something like that
(23:16):
just trying to get everythingunder control.
But I might be wrong, you know,like it's just, I just don't
know it's, I guess likeeconomics doesn't really work
the way it's supposed to anywayanymore.
So I suppose the book, thebooks that I just burn, them and
start over again.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I tell people you know, I just sell dirt, it's
over my pig.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I think you probably know a little bit more than that
.
But I mean well, if you don'tmind, let's take a quick break
and we will be right back.
Land isn't just dirt.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
It's where memories are made, families are raised
and livelihoods are built.
But when it comes time to sellor buy, the weight of the
decision is heavy.
Where do you even start?
Who can you trust to guide you?
For too long, land transactionshave been treated like a simple
(24:11):
exchange Numbers on a paper, asignature on a line.
But it's more than that.
At High Point Land Company, wedon't just list land, we walk it
, we learn its story and we findthe right buyer who understands
its worth.
You are not just another deal.
(24:34):
You are the steward ofsomething bigger and we're here
to help you navigate every stepof the way.
When it's time to sell, whenit's time to buy.
We're here Because land is morethan just land.
(24:58):
It's your legacy.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
All right, we're back here with Matt Davis from
Cushman and Wakefield, the landadvisory group there.
What is a land advisory group?
Is that just a special divisionof your company?
Speaker 4 (25:26):
from traditional commercial land like residential
, master-planned communitydevelopment, industrial
development all the way toagriculture, ranches and
(25:46):
renewable energy.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, now, that has been one of the interesting
things that I've learned a lotfrom folks like you that are
doing a lot of development andrenewable energy and stuff like
that.
Just because we mostly row cropand grazing pastures and stuff
like that, any developments wehave where I'm at are, you know,
pretty much house based.
You know like, uh, residentialhouses and and so it's been kind
(26:12):
of fascinating to get to knowyou and and the other developer
guys out there in the world,that, um, that world that are
doing kind of some really funstuff and developing and growing
communities.
So let's go back to renewableenergy.
Like talk just a little bit, ifyou don't mind, about who is a
(26:33):
client, like what does yourclient look like?
And how are some of these dealsstructured that you're doing
with the renault leonard?
Here are we talking leases,purchases, a little bit of both.
Um, you know, I, we again Idon't have much um experience
with it, so I'm just kind offascinated with what you're up
to yeah, so you know, clientsusually take one of two forms in
(26:58):
the space and not dissimilar toany other kind of relationship.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
But it's either developers, you know,
independent power producers,groups that own, you know, power
generation facilities acrossthe country and are moving into
the renewal space, or kind ofwhat I would call a front end
developer, people that have theunderstanding kind of
engineering background of whatit takes to entitle and approve
(27:22):
one of these projects andthey're kind of the funnel for
some of these larger IPP, theindependent power providers of
the utilities, and so they'llget out there, they'll put the
whole project together, you know, wrap it up in a nice bow, get
it fully approved and thenthey'll sell the project to a
group that's actually going tobuild it and operate it long
term.
The other side would be alandowner who has land that we
(27:45):
think has potential forrenewables, and so we're
actually going to list that andtake it to market just like we
would any other listing.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
That's very cool.
So, mostly like you're tryingto find the people that have the
desire to do the project, thenyou come to an even bigger
challenge, which is where, toput it Like, what does site
selection look like when you'relooking for?
You know, when you're lookingat a project Like I can't
(28:14):
imagine that every piece of landis equally valuable to an
energy or a renewable energyproject.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yeah, usually our client will tell us, you know,
there's a point of interconnect,typically a substation or maybe
a line segment betweensubstations, depending on the
size of the project that is, youknow, based on preliminary
review, attractive that there'spotential for them to inject
power into that piece ofinfrastructure.
So they'll give us kind of thepoint on the map or again a line
(28:45):
between two points and say,okay, we need X amount of acres
at this location, and so we'llgo out and look for that land.
If it's an undeveloped area,that might be an easier task.
If it's a developed area, wherethere, that might be an easier
task.
If it's a developed area wherethere's a lot of infrastructure
(29:06):
already in the ground buildingset cetera then maybe we're
looking for a needle in ahaystack to find that one
undeveloped or underdevelopedproperty who's got a willing
owner as far as a sale or lease,and so there's kind of a
multi-track process.
One is getting site controlright, so we're talking with the
landowner about a sale orrelease.
These are usually an option oran extended escrow type
(29:27):
structure In most markets.
It takes two plus years to getthe interconnect application
approved, which is kind of thesecond piece of it and that is,
working through the utility orthe regional entity that
oversees the utility grid andactually getting approval from
them to inject power into thatspace, and so that could take,
(29:50):
as I said, a couple of years.
It could take longer four years, five years in some cases and
so with each kind of step inthat process is they get
preliminary feedback and then amore detailed feedback.
They're kind of de-risking theproject and sometimes six months
in they find out that thatsubstation actually doesn't have
any capacity and so they've gotto try to relocate to another
(30:13):
piece of infrastructure in theregion.
So there's some pitfalls earlyin the process and that's why
they need that multi-year optionto kind of work through that
process and make sure that theyactually have a fully-baked
project.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, that's pretty fascinating.
Have you seen anything?
Like you just said?
You had a 10,000-acre projectthat you were recently a part of
.
Do they build substations oryou know, like build in power
infrastructure in for projectsif they're big enough?
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah, so that one had , I think, a project-level
substation, but I forget theexact length of the transmission
line that they built to get tothe existing infrastructure.
They call it a Gentile line.
It's the generator tie-in, andso the Gentile line was on that
one.
I think it was either 13 or 17miles to get to existing
(31:11):
infrastructure, and you'retalking about probably a million
dollars a mile for above groundlines, probably two and a half
million a mile for undergroundlines, just for the physical
cost of construction, notfactoring in the cost of
acquiring the easements or theland to actually build it on.
So it's why they like to putthose projects close to existing
(31:33):
infrastructure, because theconnection can get real
expensive, real quick.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, no, it sounds like it.
Let me think here so who elsedo you work with in order, like,
do you work with othercompanies?
Do you work with other realestate companies?
Like tell me kind of how thisprocess?
Speaker 4 (31:51):
works.
Yeah, so we, you know, we workacross the country on these
projects and because we havesome really strong client
relationships with differentdevelopers these projects, and
because we have some reallystrong client relationships with
different developers, they kindof rely on us to almost run
their real estate site selectionin multiple states.
Personally, I'm only licensedin California and so when we're
working out of the region we'llgo to someone in our company or
(32:13):
at a different company as ourboots on the ground and rely on
them to kind of knock on thedoors, kick over the rocks.
Locally we can work with themto help explain the structure,
why it needs to be the way it is, what the various stages of the
project are, and, kind ofshoulder to shoulder with
somebody in the local market, wecan usually find land and put a
(32:36):
deal together.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, that's another asset to the Realtors Land
Institute again is finding thosepeople.
It's usually pretty easy tofind good people if you just go
reach out through that networkand take a look.
Thinking about the last coupleof months or years, what's been
the most entertaining projectthat you've worked on?
Maybe.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
We just sold a, you know, pivoting far away from uh.
We just sold a, you know,pivoting far away from
renewables.
We just sold a golf course inPrinceton, new Jersey.
That was uh about 220 acresjust outside of Princeton and it
was uh formerly the estate uhto the air of the Johnson and
Johnson family and so pretty,pretty high profile.
You know asset, the clubhousewas his former mansion that he
(33:21):
built for his third wife and itwas pretty spectacular.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
That's very cool.
What do you think and what'sbeen the most challenging
project that you've worked on?
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
We've had a number of renewables, projects that are,
for all the reasons I said, kindof the front end timelines,
things like that that are reallychallenging, where you're
looking at an urban environmentfor underdeveloped land, maybe a
few acres, but you're trying toget a couple years of timeframe
on the front end and ourclients are willing to pay
(33:55):
pretty significant six-figureoption payments annually to keep
control of that land.
But it's a difficult thing forpeople in the built environment
that have the ability to selltheir property for other
economically viable uses.
If you're out in the middle ofthe desert and there's nothing
else going on, it's pretty easyto convince to to sit shoulder
(34:18):
to shoulder with you for a fewyears while you work through a
project.
But when you're in the urbanarea it's it's a little more
challenging.
So we've had a number ofprojects throughout kind of
urban California that it's.
You know we we've got ourclients made substantial
commitments from aninterconnection standpoint.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
They've got massive deposits made, but you just
can't find land.
You know it's, it's, it's tough, that's tough, you know.
I think that's kind of been theinteresting thing all the way
across the country with land isis like it seems like we have,
you know, midwestern farm ground.
Even you've got producers thatgenerationally have finally
gotten a little bit of cashtogether.
You know, even though that wesee a dip in commodity prices,
we've got a lot of cash that'splaying in the land world still,
(35:02):
and I think that that's kind ofthe same everywhere, isn't it?
It's like people have projects,different things they want to
do, they just don't have theproduct isn't available.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
It's truly supply constrained right I mean, and
(35:42):
no-transcript estate world,especially the commercial real
estate world, and we had twodozen bids, all from qualified
bidders, on that deal and gotthat done kind of mid-2024.
(36:02):
So if you've got a high-profiletrophy asset, it's truly
irreplaceable.
It doesn't matter what's goingon in the economy, the interest
is out there.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Going back just real quick tothe renewable energy stuff, one
of the things I've kind of beenwatching, this in Nebraska where
you've got some people that areinterested in maybe putting a
wind farm up or different thingsand so the counties are kind of
(36:32):
going through and figuring outzoning that's pretty, pretty
strict to try and make sure thatif it does happen then homes
aren't affected with strobing,you know, for the specifically
with the wind farms, but I thinkthat it can be anything out
there.
Are you guys seeing like somepretty strict requirements on,
you know, disassembling andgetting rid of the projects when
(36:53):
they're obsolete?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah, on the back end , many municipalities will
require a reclamation bond.
I've seen some developers wantto supply that bond later in the
life cycle of the project, butI think if I'm on the landowner
side, I'd want that bond as soonas they're putting a shovel in
the ground, because in Texasthere was a hailstorm that
(37:15):
destroyed a bunch of panels.
If there's a major failure thatrenders the project infeasible
you know economically infeasiblegoing forward I'd want to make
sure that that equipment'scoming out of the ground and
that there's a bond there toensure it.
Because all of these projectsare done with single purpose
entities, so they're projectlevel entities that don't have
(37:36):
any other assets.
You know the only assets theyhave are this project and so you
know, specifically for leasedland, if you're leasing land to
an energy project, if themunicipality isn't requiring a
reclamation bond, then thelandowner should and they'll
only do one bond.
So usually we write into thecontract that a bond is required
(38:00):
.
If the municipality requires it, it can be held in their name.
If they don't, it'll be held inthe landowner's name.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Sure, yeah, that's fascinating.
So just before we go, just realquick, if you have one thing
that you can do over the nextthree years with RLI to make an
impact, what's your goal?
What's your one thing that youreally think you can make a
difference on with theorganization?
Speaker 4 (38:24):
I think, tell the story of what we're doing in
Washington and making surepeople are aware of it, because
I think that's something thatfor even some of the members of
RLI it's happening in thebackground.
If they're not on theGovernment Affairs Committee,
they're not really engaged, theyaren't aware of the advocacy
work that's happening in thebackground.
And so I think, continuing toelevate that advocacy work and
(38:48):
really be involved in coalitionsthat are out there, you know,
litigating and protectingproperty rights, and then
telling that story publicly,both to the membership and the
greater landowning public, Sure.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, well, matt, thank you so much for taking the
time to do this today.
As always, I learned a lot, so,so I hope you continue to do
well out in California and and Iknow you're involved in
projects throughout thethroughout the country.
But I do appreciate you takingthe time out of your busy
schedule to visit with us, and Ihope you have a great rest of
(39:23):
your week.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Thanks, kobe, appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
As we wrap up another episode of the American Land
Seller Podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
Visit wwwamericanlandsellercomand find us on one of your
favorite podcast platforms.
Wwwamericanlandsellercom andfind us on one of your favorite
podcast platforms.
If you would be so kind and youenjoyed today's insights,
please like, subscribe, rate,follow and review us on whatever
(39:51):
app you are listening orwatching on.
Connect with us on social mediafor updates.
Until next week, kobe wishesyou success in your land
endeavors.
God bless you and have a greatweek.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
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High Point Land Company a trueleader in land sales.
Today on the American Land Seller, our guest is Matt
Davis, a powerhouse in landadvisory and investment strategy
.
Matt has been with CushmanWakefield since 2008, where he
specializes in the dispositionand acquisition of land and
investment assets across NorthAmerica.
He's the platform leader ofCushman Wakefield's Land
(00:21):
Advisory Group, heading anational team that delivers
creative solutions foreverything from master-planned
communities and agriculture landto industrial development and
renewable energy projects.
Over his career, matt hastransacted over 155,000 acres
for a diverse range of uses,making a significant impact in
(00:43):
the industry.
As an accredited land consultant, alc, matt's expertise and
leadership in land brokerage areundeniable.
His dedication to the industryis further reflected in his
active involvement with theRealtors Land Institute.
Since joining RLI in 2018, hehas served on key committees,
(01:04):
chaired the Government AffairsCommittee and even led as 2024
President of the Western StatesChapter, representing six states
.
His accolades include beingnamed the RLI Rising Star in
2019, commercial Land Broker ofthe Year in 2020, and member of
the Apex Top Producers Club from2018 through 2023.
(01:25):
With a Bachelor's of Science inReal Estate from San Diego
State University, matt brings adeep understanding of land
transactions, market trends andinvestment strategies.
His passion for the landcoupled with his leadership in
shaping the future of landbrokerage makes him an
invaluable guest today.
So get ready to dive intoinsightful discussion with Matt
(01:46):
Davis right here on the AmericanLand Seller Podcast.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Welcome to the American Land Seller Podcast
with your host, kobe Rickardson.
Kobe is an accredited landconsultant and multi-state land
broker with High Point LandCompany.
Join us each week as we exploreall things land.
We bring you fresh insights andexpert guests on sales,
marketing, regulations,economics and so much more.
(02:11):
Visit wwwamericanlandsellercomand find us on one of your
favorite podcast platforms.
Speaker 3 (02:20):
Okay, Kobe and our special guests, let's get
started.
Okay, Kobe and our specialguests, let's get started.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Hey, welcome back to the Land Seller Podcast.
This is an exciting day.
We're joined by Matt Davis.
He is an accredited landconsultant with Cushman and
Wakefield out of SouthernCalifornia.
Matt, how are you today Doingwell, man, how are you Doing
great?
I can't complain at all.
I am a little jealous.
You're kind of the San Diego, Ithink.
(02:47):
Man, how are you Doing great?
I can't complain at all.
I am a little jealous.
You're kind of the San Diego, Ithink right is where you're at,
matt.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
So, like you have just like the absolute perfect
weather all year round.
Weather's great.
No land to sell.
So we got to go out of town tosell any dirt.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
Yeah, I did know that too, but no, it's a pretty.
My son was stationed down therewhen he was in the Marines and
so we got to go visit severaltimes and it was just absolutely
beautiful there.
So good for you.
You don't have the snow andstuff to deal with like we do
here in Nebraska, but anyway.
So, matt, let's talk just alittle bit about, like.
(03:21):
Just recently, you uh, you wereselected to be the vice
president for realtors landinstitute.
Anybody that listens to thispodcast knows we're huge fans of
all the guys at the realtorsland institute.
Let's talk just a little bit inthe beginning here about uh,
what's that look like?
Uh, what's your path now?
Congratulations.
Of course, you know that we'reexcited for your leadership, but
(03:43):
uh, where do you go from here?
When do you start and what'sthat look like?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Yeah, I appreciate that Super exciting and glad to
be kind of stepping into theleadership chairs for the
organization.
Term officially starts, youknow, 2025.
(04:09):
So it's a four-year commitmentvice president, incoming
president and then president andimmediate past president.
So I've signed up for fouryears of leadership at RLI and
got a great you know slate ofguys I'll be working with
stepping into the VP position.
So excited for thatcollaboration and I think you
know the organization's been onsuch a great track the last
number of years.
(04:29):
Staff's phenomenal.
And I think primary goal as Ikind of move into that
leadership position with RLI iskeep it on the path that it's on
and continue to leverage arelationship with National
Association of Realtors andreally be the voice of land out
there, making sure that inWashington we're doing as much
(04:54):
as we can to protect propertyowners' rights and industry in
general.
Speaker 1 (05:00):
Yeah, it's funny you should say that because, like as
a land real estate professional, okay, so the Realtors
Association really is not theassociation as a whole.
Right, it's not really thebiggest advantage for us land
folks you know commercial peopleand land people but with all
(05:20):
that's happened recently I thinkthat you know you mentioned
this like one of the things thatis really important about the
Re realtors is our voice inWashington.
Right, and I know that you'reyou have been the government
affairs chair for RLI for thelast few years.
Talk just a little bit aboutwhat specifically is RLI's
government affairs committeekind of focused on as far as
(05:43):
what are we watching?
What are watching?
I was on the committee with youI'm not this year, but I was
for two or three years beforethat and so it's just
fascinating what we're watchingand how important that voice is
when it comes to not justlandowners but property owners
in general.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Yeah, as you kind of mentioned, nar, national
Association of Realtors isn'tnecessarily land-focused as an
organization, but it's a massiveorganization that does carry a
lot of weight and horsepower inWashington, just given the size
and number of people that aremembers.
And set the whole commissionthing aside, as far as what's
happened there, it's still animportant and powerful
(06:21):
organization and it's got a loudvoice and they've recognized
that.
As a commercial member underNAR, rli represents the experts
and has the expertise to speakto land issues in Washington and
so we've been able to reallyleverage that relationship and
(06:41):
the horsepower that NAR bringsand the voice that it has in
Washington to be impactful inWashington and so some of the
things we've been working on.
You know, it seems like everycouple of years the 1031
exchange is under threat.
That impacts everybody in realestate.
But we've been good advocatesfor that.
We worked with theenvironmental organizations who
(07:03):
use it to acquire land forconservation.
It's a big part of what they do.
So anytime you get, you know,real estate professionals,
environmentalists on the samepage, it's usually a pretty
scary situation and so it doescarry a lot of weight to kind of
form those collaborations andrelationships.
Wotus Waters of the US has beena big one.
(07:24):
You know We've had three WOTUSrules, one under each of the
last presidents, so it's beenkind of a ping pong back and
forth of trying to figure outwhat's going on and making sure
it's not overreaching.
So there's been a lot oflitigation there that RLI has
been part of.
They're actually a plaintiff inone of the cases and so again
(07:48):
joint coalition just advocatingfor property owners' rights as
it relates to waters of the US,and really that's anything that
could be even a seasonal streamcould get folded under WOTUS and
just means that anything thatcould impact that stream now is
a federal issue, the open fieldsdoctrine.
A lot of people don't know that.
(08:10):
You know illegal or unlawfulsearch and seizure doesn't
necessarily apply to your, yourproperty beyond your home.
So if you have acreage everystate's a little different, and
so RLI has been writing amicusbriefs and involved in a number
of cases across the country.
Most recently we weresuccessful in Tennessee in
(08:34):
protecting and helping kind ofexpand those rights beyond the
structure itself to the propertyboundaries, property boundaries
so a lot of impactful stuff forproperty owners, also
advocating on behalf of theprofessionals themselves and in
the business with things like1031s.
Speaker 1 (08:51):
Yeah, that's.
I mean and I think that youknow there's a lot of people
that don't really understandthat that when you're looking at
all, the all of the tax taxingentities in the all of the tax
taxing entities in the, you know, at the state, local, federal
government has it, it's justthat big number from what the
(09:11):
savings is from the 1031exchanges.
It's just real tempting forlawmakers to go man, that seems
like a real simple, you know,like that should be an easy, um,
easy one to fix.
We'll just tie that up and getrid of that.
In reality I don't know howmuch.
I just don't think there'sgoing to be a whole lot of land
changing hands if you didn'thave that 1031 exchange.
(09:32):
I mean, is that kind of yourfeeling too?
Speaker 4 (09:35):
Yeah, it could definitely freeze the
marketplace from a transactionstandpoint.
You'd likely end up with aflurry of activity in advance of
a change like that, as peopletry to get ahead of it, but then
you'd have a total trough ofactivity.
One of the best kind ofarguments for retaining it that
I've heard, and part of theproblem, is you're dealing with
(09:56):
staffers a lot of times andfolks that don't own property.
They've never participated init that 31 like kind exchange,
so they just don't havefamiliarity with it or a real
understanding.
But most of them have 401ks andso explaining to them the
deferred tax benefit of a 401kis very similar to the deferred
(10:18):
tax benefit of a 1031 exchangefor property, and so it
accomplishes the same purchaseor purpose, right, it allows you
to grow your wealth over timeand as you cash out at a later
point in time, you pay taxes,right, and so, um, it's uh, when
you kind of explain it in termsthat that are familiar and they
(10:39):
understand, sometimes we get abetter, better result.
But so far, so good.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yep, now, like I said , it just seems like you're
right.
Every couple of years thatseems to be the solution that
the lawmakers want to use.
It's like, oh, we'll fix taxes,we'll just get rid of this big
monster, and then we'll gain awhole bunch of money.
Close the loophole.
Yeah, close the loophole, whichreally isn't a loophole, I
(11:17):
don't think.
And then again I don't think wementioned it.
But the flood insurance, thatis another one that seems like
it's on the chopping block quiteevery time it comes up solution
.
You know, we kind of still haveto keep that program limping
along, just to kind of toprotect landowners and property
owners in those floodplain areas, and so yeah, that's a great
one.
Speaker 4 (11:35):
The insurance topic is one that RLI has weighed in
on quite a bit lately Floodinsurance specifically.
We're starting to talk aboutfire insurance out west.
All of those are kind of timelytopics.
As we deal with, it seems likemore extreme weather patterns.
That's smart.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
But no well, matt, we're about 10 minutes here.
Let's just take a real quickbreak, if you don't mind, and
we'll just come back.
I do want to pick your brain alittle bit on the energy use on
land and stuff like that, if youdon't mind, because I know
you're kind of an expert in thatarea and so I'm really
fascinated with how that works.
So if you have a second, canyou come back after a break here
(12:15):
?
Absolutely, All right, we'll beright back.
The American Land Seller Podcastis brought to you in part by
LandHubcom.
Join us today and experiencethe expertise of LandHub's land
marketing professionals.
Whether you're buying orselling, let us show you the way
(12:35):
in the ever-evolving world ofland transactions.
Visit LandHubcom and discoverwhat the future of land
marketing looks like.
Landhubcom, where your landjourneyubcom and discover what
the future of land marketinglooks like.
Landhubcom, where your landjourney begins.
Okay, we're back here with MattDavis, accredited land
(12:59):
consultant.
Matt, you know we talked alittle bit before we started
this today um, about um.
You kind of have become a guruin the world of like um, helping
people find you know and workthrough um, like renewable
energy on land and stuff likethat.
Talk just a little bit abouthow.
First of all, how did you kindof get into that?
(13:19):
Is that something that yourcompany kind of threw a file on
your desk and said figure thisout, matt.
Or or how did you get intomaybe kind of working a file on
your desk and said figure thisout, matt.
Or how did you get into maybekind of working with renewable
energy and land purchases?
Speaker 4 (13:30):
at least it's funny.
I had an interest in landcoming out of college.
I wanted to be a real estatedeveloper and then I kind of
fell into the brokerage worldand just more traditional
commercial brokerage.
And it was in 2009 where I wascoming out of the great
financial crisis trying tofigure out what I was going to
do with my life, and I had acolleague who had a relationship
(13:50):
with a guy that had gone towork for a solar company and
they wanted to do some siteselection for solar projects and
they wanted a young guy topound the pavement and help them
find dirt.
And the region they werelooking in is kind of close to
where I grew up and so theytapped me and so really it was
my first land assignment.
It's kind of what got me intothe land business.
(14:11):
The guy I ended up partneringwith on that assignment was kind
of an old, grizzled land brokerwho had done a lot of
residential development land andthings like that across
Southern California, and so wewent out and became site
selection experts for renewableenergy projects.
Some of those never got built.
It was kind of early days andultimately kind of a tumultuous
(14:34):
time in renewable energy from aproject development standpoint.
But it kind of laid thefoundation for my land career
going forward.
So we've been doing renewablesa long time as long as I've been
doing land, yeah.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
What is the right now ?
Like, what's the hot thing withrenewables?
I know like I don't get to playin it too terribly much just
because Nebraska is a Nebraska'sthe state in the state of
Nebraska, I would say.
So what are the investors kindof thinking as the cats meow
(15:19):
right now when it comes torenewable?
Speaker 4 (15:21):
energy.
It depends heavily on what thesubsidies are.
It's still a fledgling industrythat's heavily subsidized and
so it's really market-by-marketspecific.
But I'd say across the boardbattery energy storage systems
called BESS, b-e-s-s areprobably the most interesting
(15:42):
and still kind of the Wild Westout there as far as activity and
kind of a gold rush mentality.
So we're seeing a lot of thoseacross the country, still seeing
, you know, wind and solarprojects as well, of different
sizes across the country but butbest projects are probably the
most um active at the momentwhat if somebody owns some land
(16:03):
out there like and and wants toconsider that like what is the
pre?
Speaker 1 (16:09):
what's the qualifications for a piece of
property to maybe be consideredfor that particular project?
Speaker 4 (16:16):
So almost the number one criteria is proximity to a
substation.
Because the battery projectsare smaller footprint they may
be anywhere from like an acre toyou know, 50 acres on the maybe
the biggest side.
They're much more sensitive towhat it's going to take to get
the power to the substation.
(16:36):
So actually finding the rightsof way and connecting the
project to the grid Typicallyit's at a substation where you
know a solar project you might,depending on the size of it, you
might go you know miles toconnect to the grid.
But with battery projectsthey're much more sensitive to
the complexity of trying to tieit into the grid.
(16:57):
So land next to a substation isideal and so for anyone that's
got land next to a substation,they should look at whether
there's capacity and whether ithas potential for a battery
project.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
Sure.
So you guys I mean Californiawas kind of one of the pioneers,
especially with like wind whenit first came out, and so is
that something that theycontinue to kind of be looking
at finding properties.
I mean, it's kind of to me itseems like you've got.
You've got as much desert asyou do, beautiful land, you know
.
So do you just put solar panelsout in the desert or windmills
(17:34):
out in the desert, and is that,you know, like, do you see a
trend?
Speaker 4 (17:38):
out there.
Yeah, the, the wind projects,like you mentioned, you know.
I mean, some of them have beenthere, I think, probably more
than 50 years, and so what wesee is repowering of old
projects.
They'll come in with newtechnology, you know, leverage
the fact that the land's alreadydisturbed, the connection of
the grid's already there and andbring in new technology that's
more efficient and and canultimately increase the amount
(18:00):
of power being generated.
We've seen that with some ofthe early solar projects as well
.
Uh, come in and basicallyscrape the project and um and
come in with new technology, butleverage that connection to the
grid, which is actually areally expensive and
time-consuming part of thedevelopment process is getting
approval to connect to the grid.
So if you've got a project,that already has.
(18:22):
that that's pretty valuable.
So we're seeing that.
And then, yes, desert we didlike a 10,000-acre solar project
in the Mojave Desert, so prettymassive scale.
And so you're seeing some largeprojects out there as well as
small projects.
And most recently, we've had alot of changes in the water
groundwater regulatoryenvironment in California.
(18:43):
A lot of productiveagricultural land that's now
kind of what I would say haswater security issues.
It doesn't have enough watergoing forward to irrigate all
the acreage.
We're looking at those forpotential solar development.
Speaker 1 (18:57):
Does that, and that's kind of an interesting thing
you brought up too, though, withthe water security issues on
this stuff.
Is that affecting your landprices out there, or is it just
kind of turning them into, kindof you just said that are we
pivoting from okay, from okaywell, we're not going to have
avocados anymore.
We're going to turn that into,like, maybe, some sort of energy
production property or yeah,for for land that has.
Speaker 4 (19:22):
You know, since the sustainable groundwater
management act passed in 2014and really started getting
implemented in 2020, we're nowreally seeing, you know, over
the last few years, the changein values and so land that has
quality water rights and haswater security, that land's
maintained value, or you know,modestly increased over time,
(19:44):
just with kind of general trendsin the marketplace, whereas
land that doesn't havesufficient water, the market
value has just fallen off.
I mean, it's pretty drastic.
Speaker 1 (19:54):
Yeah, that's growing up in farm country, that you
know like.
I just remember back when wewent from anything goes, you
know, probably back in the 80sto, you know, very regulated, no
more new wells for irrigation.
You know you could take yoursurface water rights and lease
(20:14):
them or sell them to Colorado,you know like.
So it's just that water is veryinteresting.
I'll never forget the day that Iwas in Vancouver, british
Columbia, I used to own atrucking company and I was up
there unloading and I wassitting in a place kind of
looking at their little bay areaor whatever it was, and they
(20:34):
had a bunch of oil tankerssitting there and uh, so I asked
the guy it's like, what is withyou got?
Is this a huge oil productionstate?
And he's like, oh no, that'swater.
We're selling water to losangeles.
So they just load, they takeall the glacier water, whatever
the water running off of themountains, and then they load it
into tankers and send it to losangeles.
(20:55):
He goes there.
So I thought, well, that's it.
Now you're exporting water tothe united states.
Speaker 4 (21:02):
It's.
It's an important commodity.
You know it's even on some ofthe renewable projects if they
have water rights.
We're able to monetize those,oftentimes and sell them to
somebody that you know, becausethe renewable projects don't
require a ton of water foroperations and maintenance once
they're built.
You know, construction water isone thing, but ongoing they're
pretty low water usage.
So we've actually taken waterfrom it, was tied to land,
(21:25):
severed it from the land andsold it to districts or other,
you know, agricultural users orpeople that need that water to
continue their operations.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
I just announced recently we got another half a
point from interest rates.
Are we seeing out there whereyou're at or where you're
licensed?
I know you're multiple states,like most of us are.
Are you kind of seeing theinterest rates being an issue?
Or we still have quite a bit ofcash players, or have you, have
(21:54):
you guys kind of seen aslowdown when it comes to the
land investment and developmentinvestment?
Speaker 4 (22:00):
Yeah, it's, it's, you know it's changed um, return
expectations right, Just basedon the risk free rate of return
uh, coming up, you know kind oftracking with the interest rate
environment.
Um, that tends to affectpeople's expectations of what
they're going to get on farmlandreturns and even renewable
energy returns.
I mean their capital stack haschanged and their cost of
(22:21):
capital is different than it wasand despite subsidies and
things like that, it can stillbe difficult to make a project
pencil.
So I mean the easy answer isyes.
You know interest rates haveimpacted the market.
I think you know everyone'skind of been waiting with bated
breath to get through theelection here and optimistic the
rates were coming down throughthe end of the year and
(22:42):
obviously that's happening.
So we'll see.
You know, as the Fed dropstheir rate, you know I doubt
we'll see a one-to-one decreasein the the mortgage market, but
if it helps decrease that uh,that cost of capital a little
bit, it'll be helpful.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I I, I am like the, I know like economics for dummies
, like realistically basiceconomics, but I really have a
hard time trying to figure outhow we can get the economy under
control if you continue to havelow interest rates.
You know, like that, I thinkthere has to be a point where we
kind of have to spend sixmonths or something like that
(23:16):
just trying to get everythingunder control.
But I might be wrong, you know,like it's just, I just don't
know it's, I guess likeeconomics doesn't really work
the way it's supposed to anywayanymore.
So I suppose the book, thebooks that I just burn, them and
start over again.
Speaker 4 (23:32):
I tell people you know, I just sell dirt, it's
over my pig.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
I think you probably know a little bit more than that
.
But I mean well, if you don'tmind, let's take a quick break
and we will be right back.
Land isn't just dirt.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
It's where memories are made, families are raised
and livelihoods are built.
But when it comes time to sellor buy, the weight of the
decision is heavy.
Where do you even start?
Who can you trust to guide you?
For too long, land transactionshave been treated like a simple
(24:11):
exchange Numbers on a paper, asignature on a line.
But it's more than that.
At High Point Land Company, wedon't just list land, we walk it
, we learn its story and we findthe right buyer who understands
its worth.
You are not just another deal.
(24:34):
You are the steward ofsomething bigger and we're here
to help you navigate every stepof the way.
When it's time to sell, whenit's time to buy.
We're here Because land is morethan just land.
(24:58):
It's your legacy.
Speaker 1 (25:14):
All right, we're back here with Matt Davis from
Cushman and Wakefield, the landadvisory group there.
What is a land advisory group?
Is that just a special divisionof your company?
Speaker 4 (25:26):
from traditional commercial land like residential
, master-planned communitydevelopment, industrial
development all the way toagriculture, ranches and
(25:46):
renewable energy.
Speaker 1 (25:48):
Yeah, now, that has been one of the interesting
things that I've learned a lotfrom folks like you that are
doing a lot of development andrenewable energy and stuff like
that.
Just because we mostly row cropand grazing pastures and stuff
like that, any developments wehave where I'm at are, you know,
pretty much house based.
You know like, uh, residentialhouses and and so it's been kind
(26:12):
of fascinating to get to knowyou and and the other developer
guys out there in the world,that, um, that world that are
doing kind of some really funstuff and developing and growing
communities.
So let's go back to renewableenergy.
Like talk just a little bit, ifyou don't mind, about who is a
(26:33):
client, like what does yourclient look like?
And how are some of these dealsstructured that you're doing
with the renault leonard?
Here are we talking leases,purchases, a little bit of both.
Um, you know, I, we again Idon't have much um experience
with it, so I'm just kind offascinated with what you're up
to yeah, so you know, clientsusually take one of two forms in
(26:58):
the space and not dissimilar toany other kind of relationship.
Speaker 4 (27:02):
But it's either developers, you know,
independent power producers,groups that own, you know, power
generation facilities acrossthe country and are moving into
the renewal space, or kind ofwhat I would call a front end
developer, people that have theunderstanding kind of
engineering background of whatit takes to entitle and approve
(27:22):
one of these projects andthey're kind of the funnel for
some of these larger IPP, theindependent power providers of
the utilities, and so they'llget out there, they'll put the
whole project together, you know, wrap it up in a nice bow, get
it fully approved and thenthey'll sell the project to a
group that's actually going tobuild it and operate it long
term.
The other side would be alandowner who has land that we
(27:45):
think has potential forrenewables, and so we're
actually going to list that andtake it to market just like we
would any other listing.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
That's very cool.
So, mostly like you're tryingto find the people that have the
desire to do the project, thenyou come to an even bigger
challenge, which is where, toput it Like, what does site
selection look like when you'relooking for?
You know, when you're lookingat a project Like I can't
(28:14):
imagine that every piece of landis equally valuable to an
energy or a renewable energyproject.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Yeah, usually our client will tell us, you know,
there's a point of interconnect,typically a substation or maybe
a line segment betweensubstations, depending on the
size of the project that is, youknow, based on preliminary
review, attractive that there'spotential for them to inject
power into that piece ofinfrastructure.
So they'll give us kind of thepoint on the map or again a line
(28:45):
between two points and say,okay, we need X amount of acres
at this location, and so we'llgo out and look for that land.
If it's an undeveloped area,that might be an easier task.
If it's a developed area, wherethere, that might be an easier
task.
If it's a developed area wherethere's a lot of infrastructure
(29:06):
already in the ground buildingset cetera then maybe we're
looking for a needle in ahaystack to find that one
undeveloped or underdevelopedproperty who's got a willing
owner as far as a sale or lease,and so there's kind of a
multi-track process.
One is getting site controlright, so we're talking with the
landowner about a sale orrelease.
These are usually an option oran extended escrow type
(29:27):
structure In most markets.
It takes two plus years to getthe interconnect application
approved, which is kind of thesecond piece of it and that is,
working through the utility orthe regional entity that
oversees the utility grid andactually getting approval from
them to inject power into thatspace, and so that could take,
(29:50):
as I said, a couple of years.
It could take longer four years, five years in some cases and
so with each kind of step inthat process is they get
preliminary feedback and then amore detailed feedback.
They're kind of de-risking theproject and sometimes six months
in they find out that thatsubstation actually doesn't have
any capacity and so they've gotto try to relocate to another
(30:13):
piece of infrastructure in theregion.
So there's some pitfalls earlyin the process and that's why
they need that multi-year optionto kind of work through that
process and make sure that theyactually have a fully-baked
project.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Yeah, that's pretty fascinating.
Have you seen anything?
Like you just said?
You had a 10,000-acre projectthat you were recently a part of
.
Do they build substations oryou know, like build in power
infrastructure in for projectsif they're big enough?
Speaker 4 (30:48):
Yeah, so that one had , I think, a project-level
substation, but I forget theexact length of the transmission
line that they built to get tothe existing infrastructure.
They call it a Gentile line.
It's the generator tie-in, andso the Gentile line was on that
one.
I think it was either 13 or 17miles to get to existing
(31:11):
infrastructure, and you'retalking about probably a million
dollars a mile for above groundlines, probably two and a half
million a mile for undergroundlines, just for the physical
cost of construction, notfactoring in the cost of
acquiring the easements or theland to actually build it on.
So it's why they like to putthose projects close to existing
(31:33):
infrastructure, because theconnection can get real
expensive, real quick.
Speaker 1 (31:38):
Yeah, no, it sounds like it.
Let me think here so who elsedo you work with in order, like,
do you work with othercompanies?
Do you work with other realestate companies?
Like tell me kind of how thisprocess?
Speaker 4 (31:51):
works.
Yeah, so we, you know, we workacross the country on these
projects and because we havesome really strong client
relationships with differentdevelopers these projects, and
because we have some reallystrong client relationships with
different developers, they kindof rely on us to almost run
their real estate site selectionin multiple states.
Personally, I'm only licensedin California and so when we're
working out of the region we'llgo to someone in our company or
(32:13):
at a different company as ourboots on the ground and rely on
them to kind of knock on thedoors, kick over the rocks.
Locally we can work with themto help explain the structure,
why it needs to be the way it is, what the various stages of the
project are, and, kind ofshoulder to shoulder with
somebody in the local market, wecan usually find land and put a
(32:36):
deal together.
Speaker 1 (32:37):
Yeah, that's another asset to the Realtors Land
Institute again is finding thosepeople.
It's usually pretty easy tofind good people if you just go
reach out through that networkand take a look.
Thinking about the last coupleof months or years, what's been
the most entertaining projectthat you've worked on?
Maybe.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
We just sold a, you know, pivoting far away from uh.
We just sold a, you know,pivoting far away from
renewables.
We just sold a golf course inPrinceton, new Jersey.
That was uh about 220 acresjust outside of Princeton and it
was uh formerly the estate uhto the air of the Johnson and
Johnson family and so pretty,pretty high profile.
You know asset, the clubhousewas his former mansion that he
(33:21):
built for his third wife and itwas pretty spectacular.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
That's very cool.
What do you think and what'sbeen the most challenging
project that you've worked on?
That's a good question.
Speaker 4 (33:32):
We've had a number of renewables, projects that are,
for all the reasons I said, kindof the front end timelines,
things like that that are reallychallenging, where you're
looking at an urban environmentfor underdeveloped land, maybe a
few acres, but you're trying toget a couple years of timeframe
on the front end and ourclients are willing to pay
(33:55):
pretty significant six-figureoption payments annually to keep
control of that land.
But it's a difficult thing forpeople in the built environment
that have the ability to selltheir property for other
economically viable uses.
If you're out in the middle ofthe desert and there's nothing
else going on, it's pretty easyto convince to to sit shoulder
(34:18):
to shoulder with you for a fewyears while you work through a
project.
But when you're in the urbanarea it's it's a little more
challenging.
So we've had a number ofprojects throughout kind of
urban California that it's.
You know we we've got ourclients made substantial
commitments from aninterconnection standpoint.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
They've got massive deposits made, but you just
can't find land.
You know it's, it's, it's tough, that's tough, you know.
I think that's kind of been theinteresting thing all the way
across the country with land isis like it seems like we have,
you know, midwestern farm ground.
Even you've got producers thatgenerationally have finally
gotten a little bit of cashtogether.
You know, even though that wesee a dip in commodity prices,
we've got a lot of cash that'splaying in the land world still,
(35:02):
and I think that that's kind ofthe same everywhere, isn't it?
It's like people have projects,different things they want to
do, they just don't have theproduct isn't available.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
It's truly supply constrained right I mean, and
(35:42):
no-transcript estate world,especially the commercial real
estate world, and we had twodozen bids, all from qualified
bidders, on that deal and gotthat done kind of mid-2024.
(36:02):
So if you've got a high-profiletrophy asset, it's truly
irreplaceable.
It doesn't matter what's goingon in the economy, the interest
is out there.
Speaker 1 (36:12):
Yeah, that's definitely true.
Going back just real quick tothe renewable energy stuff, one
of the things I've kind of beenwatching, this in Nebraska where
you've got some people that areinterested in maybe putting a
wind farm up or different thingsand so the counties are kind of
(36:32):
going through and figuring outzoning that's pretty, pretty
strict to try and make sure thatif it does happen then homes
aren't affected with strobing,you know, for the specifically
with the wind farms, but I thinkthat it can be anything out
there.
Are you guys seeing like somepretty strict requirements on,
you know, disassembling andgetting rid of the projects when
(36:53):
they're obsolete?
Speaker 4 (36:55):
Yeah, on the back end , many municipalities will
require a reclamation bond.
I've seen some developers wantto supply that bond later in the
life cycle of the project, butI think if I'm on the landowner
side, I'd want that bond as soonas they're putting a shovel in
the ground, because in Texasthere was a hailstorm that
(37:15):
destroyed a bunch of panels.
If there's a major failure thatrenders the project infeasible
you know economically infeasiblegoing forward I'd want to make
sure that that equipment'scoming out of the ground and
that there's a bond there toensure it.
Because all of these projectsare done with single purpose
entities, so they're projectlevel entities that don't have
(37:36):
any other assets.
You know the only assets theyhave are this project and so you
know, specifically for leasedland, if you're leasing land to
an energy project, if themunicipality isn't requiring a
reclamation bond, then thelandowner should and they'll
only do one bond.
So usually we write into thecontract that a bond is required
(38:00):
.
If the municipality requires it, it can be held in their name.
If they don't, it'll be held inthe landowner's name.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Sure, yeah, that's fascinating.
So just before we go, just realquick, if you have one thing
that you can do over the nextthree years with RLI to make an
impact, what's your goal?
What's your one thing that youreally think you can make a
difference on with theorganization?
Speaker 4 (38:24):
I think, tell the story of what we're doing in
Washington and making surepeople are aware of it, because
I think that's something thatfor even some of the members of
RLI it's happening in thebackground.
If they're not on theGovernment Affairs Committee,
they're not really engaged, theyaren't aware of the advocacy
work that's happening in thebackground.
And so I think, continuing toelevate that advocacy work and
(38:48):
really be involved in coalitionsthat are out there, you know,
litigating and protectingproperty rights, and then
telling that story publicly,both to the membership and the
greater landowning public, Sure.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, well, matt, thank you so much for taking the
time to do this today.
As always, I learned a lot, so,so I hope you continue to do
well out in California and and Iknow you're involved in
projects throughout thethroughout the country.
But I do appreciate you takingthe time out of your busy
schedule to visit with us, and Ihope you have a great rest of
(39:23):
your week.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Thanks, kobe, appreciate you having me on.
Speaker 2 (39:27):
As we wrap up another episode of the American Land
Seller Podcast.
Thank you for joining us.
Visit wwwamericanlandsellercomand find us on one of your
favorite podcast platforms.
Wwwamericanlandsellercom andfind us on one of your favorite
podcast platforms.
If you would be so kind and youenjoyed today's insights,
please like, subscribe, rate,follow and review us on whatever
(39:51):
app you are listening orwatching on.
Connect with us on social mediafor updates.
Until next week, kobe wishesyou success in your land
endeavors.
God bless you and have a greatweek.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
The American Land Seller is brought to you in part
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