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squadcaster-alan-lowe_2 (00:02):
Welcome to American POTUS, where we're
devoted to the history of thePresidents and the Presidency.
We're joined by the very bestexperts from around the globe,
giving their perspectives on thehistory of the office and those
who've held it.
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and onthis episode, I'm joined by my
friend, Paul Sparrow.
I got to know Paul when he wasnamed Director of the wonderful
Franklin D.
Roosevelt Presidential LibraryMuseum in Hyde Park, New York,
(00:26):
where he served for many years.
Prior to that, he was DeputyDirector and Senior Vice
President at the museum inWashington, D.
C.
Paul also has been an Emmy awardwinning documentary and
television producer.
He now is a historicalconsultant and writer, and he's
written a wonderful book thatwe're going to discuss today
titled Awakening the Spirit ofAmerica, FDR's War of Words with
(00:48):
Charles Lindbergh and the Battleto Save Democracy.
Paul, thanks so much for joiningus on American POTUS.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (00:54):
Thank you for having me, Alan.
And this is a great podcast.
I really love it.
You cover a lot of details andyou have wonderful guests on.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (01:01):
Well, thank you so much.
And I have a wonderful guesttoday.
It's great to catch up with you.
And I've really enjoyedAwakening the Spirit of America.
Really a terrific book, Paul.
Thank you for it.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (01:10):
Thank you.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (01:11):
So let's get back to the very, very
beginning here.
And you know, something Iwondered, I went into this book
as, you know, knowing a littlebit about FDR, but not that much
about Charles Lindbergh.
And I wondered as I startedreading, you know, how much did
FDR and Lindbergh know eachother?
Before this battle of words andideas began,
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (01:30):
They really didn't have much contact
prior to this.
You know, when Lindbergh, madehis famous flight, across the
Atlantic to Paris in 1927, FDRwas still sort of in his
wilderness years in his recoveryperiod from, from polio.
But, uh, And so he wasn't reallyon the national stage.
He became governor of New Yorkin 1928, but they never really
(01:50):
crossed paths, uh, during thatperiod.
And then after Lindbergh's sonwas kidnapped and murdered, when
1932, the same year FDR becamepresident, then he became this
target of intense media andtabloid, uh, attention.
And so, uh, Charles Lindberghand his wife moved.
Out of the country and lived inEngland and Europe for a number
(02:10):
of years, so he didn't reallyreturn back to the United States
until early 1939, at which pointin April of 1939, he did visit
FDR at the White House, and thiswas really their first meeting,
and it's very interesting inhis, uh, uh, diary and Lindbergh
describes their meeting.
And he says, you know, uh, Ithink I can get along with him.
(02:32):
He's very personable, verycharming, great
conversationalists.
I just don't know if I trusthim.
Um, and so right off the bat,there's a little bit of this
difference.
And of course, by 1939 FDR sortof, Pro, intervention attitude
had become fairly well known.
This is before the war startedand Lindbergh, even then, I
think had pretty proisolationist points of view.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25 (02:55):
I think it's kind of difficult for
us now to recognize that kind ofthe depth and the breadth of
Lindbergh's popularity, his famearound the world, can you give
us maybe some idea of how iconiche was here and across the globe
when this story begins?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (03:10):
well, in 1927, he makes the flight, he
becomes probably one of the mostfamous people in the world.
I mean, his fame and celebritytranscended national boundaries,
to give you an example.
So, uh, later on in 1927, hedecides to embark on this.
A multinational goodwill tour toCentral and South America.
And his first stop is Mexico.
(03:32):
So he flies to Mexico city.
And it's a big news that he'scoming and 150, 000 people and
the entire Mexico city policeforce, plus a number of national
guard and, soldiers come to theairport.
to see him arrive.
And it's absolutely a mob scene.
So this is Mexico City, youknow, 150, 000 people turning up
(03:53):
for him.
So that gives you some sense.
and then of course he was thefirst everyday hero of aviation
era.
His flight was Extraordinarilycomplicated and difficult and
courageous.
And he was also an aviationgenius.
So he becomes a very importantspokesperson for the aviation
industry in those early years.
(04:15):
Uh, and then of course hiscelebrity is only magnified
enormously after the tragickidnapping and murder of his
son.
And so he becomes, he and hiswife become these tabloid
targets.
So I would say, you know, one ofthe four or five most famous
people in the world.
during that period.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (04:33):
So when you look at the, the
opposition that was starting togrow to Roosevelt's seeming
interventionist policies, or atleast thoughts at that point,
prior to the war starting, washe the most influential of
those, the most vocal opponentof the president in that regard?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (04:49):
Well, it's, it's interesting because
it evolves over time.
I mean, first of all, no one ofhim as an isolationist.
He was not political.
He had not given a radio speechin almost 10 years.
You know, when he firstreappears back on the scene.
And so when Germany invades,Poland, in 1939, September 1939.
(05:11):
And it becomes obvious thatthere's this momentum for
America to take sides with theAllies.
That's when he decides to stepup and start doing these radio
broadcasts and speeches in whichhe articulates, uh, very clearly
and calmly and in a very, very,uh, reasonable tone with very
logical arguments that theUnited States shouldn't get
involved in European affairs,that we are protected by two
(05:33):
oceans.
We really don't need to getinvolved in this.
Uh, and he sort of, insertshimself into this conversation
and it's very unusual inAmerican history for a
celebrity, nonpoliticalcelebrity, to to insert himself
into a political debate likethis and take on the president
of the United States.
Now there were a lot of very,very powerful isolationists, you
(05:54):
know, William Randolph Hearst,the newspaper publisher, Henry
Ford, one of the richestindustrial titans in the world.
Uh, Colonel McCormick, who ranthe Chicago Tribune and WGN
radio station.
There were a number of very,very rich.
Powerful men who believedAmerica should not get involved
in this war and in fact hadbusiness dealings and ownerships
and sympathy with the NaziGerman government.
(06:18):
Particularly people like HenryFord who had many factories over
there and was awarded one of thegreat German medals for his
support of Nazi Germany.
And then there were a number ofvery powerful politicians.
Senator Burton Wheeler, who wasa Democrat, was one of the most
outspoken isolationists, as wasRobert Taft, the Senator Taft
and, uh, Hamilton Fish, who Ithink we'll probably get into
(06:39):
later, who was a congressman whorepresented FDR's home district
and who was a Republican.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (06:45):
And you noted people like Ford
seeming to have a preference forGermany in some of that.
Not all of it obviously wasbusiness related, but with
Lindbergh, I was really shockedin reading this book of how much
that preference really wasthere, that he saw that system
as preferable to what we had.
So can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
(07:05):
Where did that preference for akind of a non democratic type of
government come from withLindbergh and those around him?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (07:12):
Well, it's interesting because as I
said, when he went to Europe,Because of the media hounding
him in the United States, um, hetraveled quite a bit.
And he first landed in England.
He and his wife lived in Englandfor a while.
Then they lived in France.
And he saw England and France asthese sort of decaying
democracies.
You know, everybody was stilljust sort of coming out of the
Great Depression.
Uh, but he saw them as, uh,lethargic and basically living
(07:38):
on the glories of their past.
And then of course, becauseGermany at that point in the mid
1930s was developing their,military capabilities in
violation of the treaties thatended World War I.
They were doing a lot ofdevelopment of their air force,
the Luftwaffe.
And of course, Lindbergh was oneof the great.
Aviation experts in the world.
So both for propaganda reasonsand for technical reasons, they
(08:00):
would invite, Lindbergh to cometo Germany and visit their
facilities or aviationfacilities, fly their planes.
And Lindbergh was extremelyimpressed with the dynamism and
the activity and the energy hesaw in Germany, this resurgent
economy, this dynamic industry,and this very, very superior
technology that the Germans werebringing to their airplanes.
(08:23):
And of course now he was veryopen about this.
There's nothing secret.
He would report, Colonel Smith,who was the military attache,
the U.
S.
military attache in Berlin.
Whenever Lindbergh would go toGermany and fly these planes and
visit the aviation facilities,he would report, to Smith at the
American embassy and give adetailed report about the state
(08:43):
of the U.
S.
German aviation, which was very,very valuable.
Matter of fact, he was probablythe most valuable source for
American intelligence.
Of course, there was no Americanintelligence.
There was no CIA or anythinglike that then.
and our air force consisted ofless than 2000 planes.
We only had 225, 000 soldiers inour standing army.
We had a semi decent Navy, butwe were like ranked 18th or 19th
in the world in terms of ourmilitary capability.
(09:06):
And we were very far behind inour.
design and manufacturingtechniques.
So this was very valuableinformation.
And I think that's really whenhe bonded with this autocratic,
highly disciplined, veryefficient society.
Which when he was there hereceived the German Eagle cross
(09:26):
just two weeks beforeKristallnacht, you know, Goring
himself presented the medal tohim at an American embassy
event.
Just two weeks beforeKristallnacht in 1938, which of
course was the terrible attackson Jewish businesses and Jewish
civilians and the beginning ofmoving Jews into concentration
camps.
And it was after that, inNovember, 1938, that he and his
(09:48):
wife decided, okay, we need toprobably move back to the United
States now.
But he brought with him justenormous respect for the Nazi,
society.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (09:59):
Well, how did he respond in seeing
those oppressions of Jews andother opponents of the Nazi
government?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (10:04):
Well, he and his wife both sort of,
you know, it's unfortunatetreatment and he didn't approve
of the treatment and he, spokeout in opposition to it.
But you see in his writings inhis diaries, in his speeches,
you see this anti Semiticthread.
At first it's somewhat subtle,but it becomes more and more
obvious until it becomesoutright blatantly anti Semitic.
You know, he starts by talkingabout the small minority of
(10:25):
Americans who control our mediaand the propaganda they're
feeding the Americans, andpeople are being misled by this
small minority.
And then finally, in the end, hejust comes right out and says,
you know, the three forces thatare trying to drive us into this
war are the British government,the Roosevelt administration and
the Jews,
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (10:41):
Mm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (10:41):
going to be bad for the Jews so he
just comes right out and saysthat.
And of course, you know, check,the truth is less than 3 percent
of the media properties in theUnited States were owned by Jews
during this period.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (10:53):
Mm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (10:53):
Now, there were some very high
profile Jewish ownership ofHollywood studios and things,
but this was all just
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (11:02):
Uh, leaving aside the horrible anti
Semitism and the respect for theautocratic nature of the
government, uh, Lindbergh, alongwith other isolationists, seem
to have this feeling ofInvulnerability from attack
because of the oceans, but I, Iwondered, before and certainly
when reading your book Limburgof all people, why did he
believe that he had flown acrossthe Atlantic for goodness sake?
(11:23):
He knew that the worlds werecoming together.
Uh, why did he still have thatbelief that isolationism was
even possible on this day andage?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-202 (11:32):
That's a great question.
And one that I can't answerbecause you're right.
There is no logic to it,especially from a person who
understood that the newgeneration of German bombers
were capable of flying, youknow, thousand plus miles, and,
uh, this new generation ofGerman fighters were highly
effective and you hadbattleships that you'd already
seen the emergence of aircraftcarriers.
So there was no logic to it, butagain, it was consistent His
(11:55):
point of view, which was thatAmerica should not get involved
and his three rationales were,we're protected by two oceans.
We're a very large country witha large population and we're
heavily industrial.
No one would ever dare to attackus.
and he ignored the idea thatAmerica had a role to play as a
protector of democracy.
And that's one of the bigissues, the sort of right and
(12:16):
wrong issue that.
Roosevelt was most concernedwith, which was that he felt
that this was a battle of goodversus evil.
And Lindbergh just veryspecifically denied and rejected
that argument.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (12:30):
And one of those groups that
Lindbergh worked with eventuallywas something called the America
First Committee.
Can you tell us about that andwhat Lindbergh's role became in
that committee?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (12:40):
Sure.
And it's an interesting storybecause it started out in
September of 1940 on the Yalecampus.
It was really a student anti wargroup, not unlike the student
anti war groups against theVietnam war in the 1960s.
although it was.
Labeled as isolationists, theyreally were, it was more about,
they were anti war.
They didn't think America shoulddo anything to prolong this war
(13:00):
or to get involved in this war.
And there were a number ofpeople who went on to be very
moderate or liberals who werepart of the initial core group.
You know, Gerald Ford went on tobe president.
Potter Stewart became a SupremeCourt justice.
Sergeant Shriver led the PeaceCorps.
They were all students at Yaleat the time.
And they were part of theinitial sort of formulation.
But then as it launched andbecame public, they brought in,
A colonel who was the head ofSears and Roebuck company who
(13:24):
sort of took over, who was veryanti Semitic.
And the headquarters moved toChicago where McCormick was
involved.
And then as it grew and becamemore virulently anti Roosevelt
as well as anti war the antiSemitism and the pro Nazi groups
became involved.
And remember 1940 is an electionyear.
So there's enormous politicalturmoil.
(13:48):
because, know, FDR decides torun for an unprecedented third
term violating GeorgeWashington's initial decision to
limit a presidential term totwo.
And that there is this sensethat Germany is going to win.
Britain has no hope.
Why are we supporting Britain?
We should be backing Germany.
(14:09):
The obvious winner,
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (14:13):
So the initial pushback against FDR
from Lindbergh, the AmericaFirst Committee, all these
others, how did he start tocounter those voices of
opposition in those years beforewe were actually in the war?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (14:29):
but it's a great question.
And it's, it's interestingbecause the, you have to have a
little historical context here,right?
Because he had served from Marchof 1933, taking over the height
of the great depression, thebank crisis, all that stuff.
So for six years, America hadbeen slowly clawing its way out
of this horrific economiccatastrophe.
(14:50):
You know, the 25 percentunemployment, people living in
the streets, there was no socialsecurity.
There was no welfare.
There was no food dependentchildren.
If you were broke and lost yourjob, you got kicked out of your
house.
You lived on the street.
I mean, the conditions wereterrible and there was a lot of
resentment against particularlyFrance and England because they
hadn't fully paid off theirworld war one debts.
(15:11):
And the failure of some of thosepayments are one of the things
that led to, you know, the stockmarket crash in 1929.
So there was resentment aboutthat.
And there was also an antiSemitic component, which was
that we had been dragged intoworld war one by manipulation by
international bankers, which ofcourse is a code word for the
Jewish business cabal thatallegedly runs the world.
(15:34):
So all those factors were atplay.
In addition to thisUnfortunately, persistent anti
immigrant thread that runsthroughout American history.
You know, 1924, the Congresspassed a whole new set of
immigration quotas.
The Chinese Exclusionary Act,where Chinese people weren't
allowed to come.
There was legislation preventingJapanese citizens from becoming
(15:55):
American citizens.
They would, they would have toremain, Japanese citizens, even
if their children were born inthis country and became American
citizens.
So there was enormous antiimmigrant sentiment, because of
the Great Depression.
So that was all sort of thebase.
And then when the war breaksout, this idea of who are we
going to support and why can'twe just stay out of it?
Let's not get dragged intoanother one of these European
(16:17):
land wars.
At that point, although it wasobvious that the Germans were
abusing They're Jewish citizens.
horrors hadn't come out yet.
People didn't really know oreven really believe that Germany
was going to do the things theysaid they were going to do.
really going to annihilate allthe Jews in Europe.
Yeah, well, that was their plan,but people didn't believe it.
(16:40):
So, and some people looked atGermany and said, look, they,
you know, they've got Fullemployment.
You know, they've got thisdynamic leader.
Look at Italy, Mussolini.
He's dragged that country out ofdepression.
Maybe there's something to thistotalitarian regime.
Maybe we need a strong man asour leader.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (16:57):
So FDR, how did he, at that point,
early on, you, you talk aboutpeople like Harry Hopkins and
Robert Sherwood, Sam Roseman,and others that helped him start
to counter the attacks fromLimburg and others.
And you mentioned thesewonderful speeches, by the way.
I know we, I want to go intoseveral of those, but can you
tell us a bit maybe about that,Troy?
Of of Hopkins, sir?
Sir.
(17:17):
Wood and Rosan.
And how they worked with FDR tohelp counter those attacks.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (17:23):
Well, those three men played.
Exactly into the question, thebeginning of your question,
which is how did FDR respond?
Uh, and so starting in 1939,we'll start in September again
when the war starts about 70percent of Americans didn't want
to get involved.
And so FDR knew that his visionthat, uh, It's America's
responsibility to help otherdemocracies was going up against
(17:44):
public opinion.
So he knew he had to be cautiousand go slowly and convince the
American public, to understandtheir role as the protector of
democracy.
You know, he called it the soulof America, the spirit of
America, the idea that we are acountry based on immigrants and
on freedom.
And our core value is ourwillingness to fight for
freedom.
So when almost every speech hegives, he works at, and he works
(18:06):
in Washington and Lincoln and.
He even talks about musteringthe troops on the green and he's
constantly trying to, as I say,my title awaken the spirit of
America, which had been, youknow, knocked unconscious by
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (18:21):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (18:22):
Um, and so that's his.
His strategy, as I say his mostpowerful weapon in his fight
against isolationists werewords.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (18:29):
Mm
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (18:30):
and of course the three great
wordsmiths that he brought in tobe his team, Harry Hopkins had
been with him for a long time.
He had run the works projectadministration.
He had been with him when he wasthe governor of New York, very,
very shrewd political mind,quite brilliant.
Uh, Winston Churchill called himMr.
Root of the matter because hewould always go right to the
issue and address it.
(18:51):
Uh, judge Sam Roseman was a NewYork Supreme court justice who
had been again with Rooseveltfor years since he was governor.
And even though he was a sittingSupreme court justice, he would
go down to Washington onweekends and help write speeches
and he's often credited withcoining the term, the new deal.
Um, but then by 1940, they had,Decided they needed a new, fresh
(19:13):
voice, someone to help pick uptheir.
quality of their writing andpersuasiveness.
And so they turned to a ratherunusual source, a completely
apolitical playwright andscreenwriter named Robert
Sherwood, who was both aPulitzer and Oscar winning
writer.
And so they, Brought him in tosort of add poetry to their
(19:34):
prose.
And the three of them wereincredibly effective.
Now, of course, Roosevelthimself was quite a good speech
writer, and he really had asense how to communicate with
the American public and, and howto be persuasive.
I, I thought I talked a lotabout persuasive language and
you take apart his speeches andyou see this visual metaphors
(19:54):
that he uses, you know, he callsGerman U boats the rattlesnakes
of the Atlantic, you
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (19:58):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (19:59):
lots Uh, simple ways of explaining
things to the American publicthat helps them understand
either the historical context orthe moment in which we're in.
So that he just keeps repeatingand repeating and pushing and
pushing, uh, this idea that it'sour responsibility to be a
citizen of the world.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (20:18):
And our responsibility to be the
arsenal of democracy, as hecalls it in his speech in
December of 1940.
So, can you tell us a bit aboutthat very important speech and
why he felt comfortable, that'sthe word at that point, in
making that speech at the end of1940?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (20:35):
Well, that speech is part of this
extraordinary period of about,uh, 30 days, uh, so he wins re
election in November of 1940,and at this point it's like the
gloves are coming off, you know,I, I don't have to play the
political game anymore.
I won the election.
Now we're going to do what Ithink we should do.
And he goes on a vacation in theCaribbean, not vacation, he goes
(20:55):
on a big naval cruise ship tovisit a number of British bases
that had been traded for somedestroyers we gave to them.
and so as he's cruising aroundthe Caribbean, he gets this
incredible letter fromChurchill, 4, 000 word letter
that Churchill described as themost important he ever wrote,
where Churchill basically says,look, we're broke and we can't
continue to pay for theseweapons you're providing us, you
(21:17):
know, you have to help us.
And Roosevelt thinks and thinksand he tries to come up with
something and he comes back doesa press conference and he says,
you know, two neighbor's housewas on fire, and he comes over
and asked to borrow your gardenhose to put out the fire.
You'd lend him the garden hose.
You wouldn't charge him for it.
And he would use the gardenhose, put the fire out.
And when he was done, he wouldreturn the garden hose.
(21:37):
And if it's not, if it'sdamaged, he'd buy you a new one.
And he sort of plants the seed.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (21:42):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-202 (21:43):
later, he does this amazing fireside
chat on December 29th, 1940,which we now think of as the
Arsenal of Democracy, speech, inwhich he talks about, again,
this responsibility we have.
He references Washington andLincoln and great American
traditions and how we have aresponsibility to be the
defenders of democracy.
And he uses this phrase, we mustbecome the great arsenal of
(22:06):
democracy because it taps intoAmerica's greatest strength,
which was his industrial mightand the ability of us to out
manufacture anyone else, butcommit our most precious
resource.
It doesn't commit young lives,right?
He's
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (22:22):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25- (22:22):
soldiers.
He's just committing ourindustrial capacity.
and so people really like thisidea.
And he introduces few dayslater, he does another speech,
which he introduces the conceptof lend lease.
We're going to lend theseweapons to England because
they're more value, they're moreuseful in protecting our
security if they're in the handsof British soldiers over there
(22:42):
than if they're sitting inwarehouses here in America.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (22:45):
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (22:45):
And in that speech where he
introduces the concept of lendlease at the end, he talks about
the four freedoms.
Why is this important?
And what.
motivates America to be thearsenal of democracy.
talks about the freedom fromwant and the freedom from fear
and the freedom of religion andthe freedom of speech everywhere
in the world.
(23:05):
And this is the best explanationof his motivation and passion
for this whole thing is that hereally believes that everybody
in the world deserves equalopportunity.
They deserve to live in acountry, but the government is
of their own choosing.
Uh, and, and this is sort of hisdriving force in which he, Tries
to motivate America and theworld in understanding this
(23:29):
existential threat that's beingposed to democracy by these
fascist regimes.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (23:35):
An existential threat to our
survival and not just a war ofgovernments, but a war of ideas.
He's framing it and reallyamazingly done.
As this Lynne Lease program getsunderway or as it's being
debated, Lindbergh is out thereplaying a major role.
How did he try to defeat LynneLease before it got started?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_15 (23:56):
So right after the Arsenal
Democracy speech and the ForFreedom speech FDR submits to
Congress H.
R.
1776.
Interesting date he would choosefor it, which is the Lend Lease
Bill.
and then one week after it goesto Congress, Hamilton Fish, who
was one of FDR's congressionalnemeses, invites Charles
(24:16):
Lindbergh to the testify beforeCongress regarding Lend Lease.
And when Lindbergh arrives theway the newspapers described it,
he was mobbed by the press.
You know, like he was aHollywood superstar, flashbulbs
going out, huge crowd chasinghim through uh, congressional
offices.
Uh, when he gets into the, uh,Witness chair the of the press
(24:40):
around him is so outrageous thatthe judge has to call in
basically security to clear themaway from him so that Lindbergh
could testify.
So that's the context when itstarts.
And then he gives a, preparedintroduction, then he answers
questions for hours.
And does a really excellent andremarkable job.
Again, you remember he has thissort of casual Midwestern tone.
(25:02):
He's still got his boyish charmand good looks.
Uh, he's sort of understated.
Everything he says seems veryreasonable.
He talks about how it's notAmerica's role to protect other
countries and that he hadwritten a Uh, magazine article
where he said, you know, Germanyjust wants what England and
France had a hundred years ago.
They went out and conqueredterritories all over the world
and, and now it's fine.
(25:24):
But when Germany tries to do it,it's not.
And so it's a rather testimony.
Matter of fact, it's soeffective that the chairman of
the committee says, you are thebest witness we have ever heard
from in my time in Congress.
And when Lindbergh gets up toleave the 50 members of the
committee.
bipartisan, up and give him astanding ovation.
(25:48):
If you can imagine that.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (25:50):
It is hard to imagine.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (25:52):
and so there was a majority of
Congress who opposed Lend Lease.
There was a majority ofAmericans who weren't very
supportive of it.
But, but, but, You know, withinthree months of debate, Lend
Lease passes in March of 1941.
And it is essentially what savedEngland from going under.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (26:11):
So two questions from that, Paul.
First, with that testimony ofLindbergh, how did Roosevelt
respond?
Did he respond directly?
How did his people respond tothat?
And then of course the obviousquestion is how in three months
after that, did he get LynneLease over the finish line?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (26:26):
Never underestimate the political
skills of Franklin Roosevelt.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_ (26:31):
Right.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (26:31):
Um, he was.
truly brilliant politician.
And yes, he made compromises.
There are things he did thatwere terrible.
You know, the incarceration ofJapanese Americans, his refusal
to support the federal antilynching law.
There's lots of things you cancriticize about him, almost all
of which were done for politicalexpediency, to get.
(26:53):
But in this moment, he hadcarefully constructed a
consortium of support withinCongress.
Now, again, the Democratic Partyhad super majorities in both
houses.
So, but his biggest opponentswere not just Republicans, but
also Southern conservativeDemocrats.
And so he was able to pressurethem to, um, As a coalition to
(27:17):
pass Lend Lease, and as hecontinued to talk about it, and
people were out there promotingit, the public became more and
more supportive of it.
So during this entire periodfrom early 1940 through till
Pearl Harbor at the end of 1941,you see this gradual shifting of
American public opinion fromstrongly isolationist to
strongly interventionist.
(27:37):
And that's mostly driven byFDR's persuasive language.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (27:42):
Did he take on Lindbergh directly or
did his people do a directsaying, you know, Lindbergh's
wrong and we're right?
How did that work?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (27:51):
Well, it's interesting.
His, Most effectivecounterattacks came from his
cabinet members.
Harold
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (27:58):
hmm.
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_15 (28:01):
in attacking Lindbergh.
but it, it's not until fairlylate in 1941 that he first
really addresses Lindbergh.
And that's when at a pressconference, and this is during a
period after they'd had somecontentious back and forth
where, uh, FDR's administrationhad accused him of not being a
(28:21):
loyal American.
Why didn't he give back thisGerman award?
And Lindbergh had resigned his,office in the, U.
S.
Army Air Force Reserves as acolonel.
And he was criticized for that.
And then one of the reporters ata press conference asks Mr.
Roosevelt specifically aboutLindbergh.
And this is the first time youget this direct question answer
(28:43):
event.
Uh, and he says at a, at amoment where we desperately need
pilots, skilled aviators andpilots, why don't you?
Vi, you know, Charles Lindberghto join the US Army Air Force
and Roosevelt in the way heoften did, he leaned back and
sort of took a dag on acigarette and he started talking
(29:04):
about this copperhead during theCivil War.
And the Copperheads were thenortherners who supported the
South.
talked about how thesecopperheads were appeasers and
they kept saying that we shouldjust.
give up.
We don't want the South.
Let, let the South do what theywant.
And then he started talkingabout the, the naysayers when
George Washington was at ValleyForge and, oh, we're never going
(29:25):
to win this war.
We should just give up.
It goes this whole sort ofhistory lesson about the people
who had tried to prevent Lincolnand Washington from doing the
great things that led to ourvictories.
And finally, when the reportersays, are we still talking about
Charles Lindbergh?
And the room laughs and, uh,said, yes.
like, can we quote you on that?
(29:45):
And Roosevelt says, yes.
So that's the first time youreally see him directly going at
Lindbergh.
And of course, Lindbergh wasoutraged that the president of
the United States would accusehim of.
Being an appeaser andunpatriotic.
And so it escalates this war ofwords.
But interestingly, you know, hehad Lindbergh's wife indirectly
(30:07):
during one of his speeches.
She had come out with a book inthe fall of 1940 called The Wave
of the Future.
Now, Ann, Lindbergh was a veryaccomplished writer.
She had written severalbestselling books.
She was a very accomplishedwoman in a lot of ways.
And she wrote this book, TheWave of the Future, which was a
short book, which she did to tryto explain her husband's point
of view, because obviously sheknew they were embroiled in this
(30:29):
extremely contentious debate.
But in the book, she basicallysays democracy is the past,
fascism and totalitarianism isthe wave of the future, and that
the Nazis are just a scum ridingon the surface, they won't last,
but this idea of a totalitariangovernment really is the future
and we should embrace it.
(30:49):
As you
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (30:50):
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2 (30:50):
imagine, the book was not well received,
Of his speeches, FDR says, thereare those who say that fascism
is the wave of the future anddemocracy is the past.
I don't believe it.
We will Press forward.
We will never give up.
Democracy will survive.
This is not our last chapter.
So it had, by that point, it hadgotten pretty personal.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (31:08):
Yeah.
You note in the book a placethat we both love very much, the
FDR Presidential Library Museumwas created, you say, by FDR as
an act of his faith in democracyand the soul of America.
How do you see that being thecase?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (31:24):
You know, FDR was a collector.
He loved to collect stuff.
He collected books.
He collected ship models.
He collected paintings.
He collected rare manuscripts ofthe U.
S.
Navy in its earliest days.
And he considered himself, youknow, an amateur archivist.
As a matter of fact the U.
S.
National Archives opened duringhis administration, that giant
building on Pennsylvania Avenue.
(31:44):
He was there for the christeningof it.
Uh, the U.
S.
archivist was one of his closestassociates.
And so he had this vision.
created a committee that lookedinto what had happened to the
presidential papers of previouspresidents.
And it was, it was a horrorstory.
Some presidents burned them.
Some of them sat in warehousesand rotted.
Some of them were given away andsold.
Some of them went to colleges orthey, some papers were here,
(32:06):
some were the library ofCongress.
And so he really thought itwould be important having come
through the great depression tohave all of his papers in one
place where historians could seethem.
And he hoped that the papers ofhis, of his predecessors, Other
members of his administrationwould all be in one place at his
home in Hyde Park.
And that would also give him aplace to show all the cool stuff
that people had given him andhis ship collection and his
(32:28):
painting collection and hisbooks.
And all of this he was giving tothe American public.
Um, it was donating it.
So this is the firstpresidential library.
That was run by the NationalArchives.
You know, there are otherpresidential libraries, quote,
that are private, uh, that stillhave papers and they're fairly
organized, but they weren't tothe American people.
(32:49):
This is the first time.
The FDR presidential library wasreally the inception of the
presidential library system wehave today.
Every president since then hashad some form of facility.
There's been a formal set ofcodified laws, the Presidential
Records Act, which says thesepapers don't belong to the
president.
They belong to the Americanpublic.
As you know, recent events haveshown how controversial this is
(33:12):
and, um, there There is animportance to protecting those
documents, preserving them forthe future historians.
There's lots of controversyaround who gets to look at them
and how fast do they beprocessed, but the core concept
is still valid today.
The American public have a rightto know how our government
works, and the U.
S.
National Archives is the rightorganization to preserve and
(33:33):
protect those documents.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (33:35):
Yeah, certainly.
I spent a good part of my careerthere believing very firmly in
what you just said, Paul.
So there are great institutions.
Um, one other thing you talkabout in this, again, terrific
book is the Atlantic Charter.
So, can you tell us a bit aboutwhat the charter was?
What did it mean for the AngloAmerican relationship?
And what were its, before thewar, prior to Pearl Harbor, I
(33:56):
should say, and then what wereits longer term effects?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (33:59):
Well, you know to understand the
Atlantic Charter, you have tohave a little bit of the
context, which is that FDR andChurchill had never met face to
face, or they had met brieflyduring World War I, but not as
leaders over their country.
And Churchill really wanted tomeet with FDR because he was
convinced that if he could justmeet with him, he could convince
him to declare war on Germany.
And Roosevelt was a fairly wilycharacter.
(34:20):
So, in August of 1941, theyagreed to have this secret
meeting.
Rendezvous.
And Roosevelt loved pullingtricks on the press.
So in his press conference, hesays, yeah, I'm going to take a
vacation.
I'm going to get on thepresidential yacht, the USS
Potomac.
We're going to go up the coast.
I'm going to go visit my home inCampobello, Canada and cruise
along the coast.
And the boat takes off to greatfanfare and he drives up the
(34:42):
coast to Cape Cod and goes intothe towns and he waves to people
from the boat.
And then in the middle of night,he gets on a little shuttle, and
they take him over to the USSAugusta, a USS Navy heavy
cruiser that takes him up toPlacentia Bay in Newfoundland,
where he has a secret rendezvouswith Churchill.
Meanwhile, the Potomac, the USPotomac is cruising along the
(35:02):
coast.
One of the crewmen is in awheelchair with the top hat and
a cigarette holder being wheeledup and down the deck with the
presidential flag flying.
Um.
Pretending to be Roosevelt and,you know, tourists would wave at
him.
There were no press allowed onthe boat, even Eleanor and his
cabinet members did not knowwhere he was.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (35:18):
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_15 (35:19):
So he goes up the USS Augustus at
anchor and out of the fogemerges HMS Prince of Wales,
this massive.
British dreadnought that hadjust finished sinking, helping
sink the Bismarck, still hadbattle scars on its side.
It pulls up, it drops anchor.
Winston Churchill comes across,comes up the gangplank.
You know, the band is playingGod Save the King, and Roosevelt
(35:41):
is standing there on the railingholding onto his son Elliot's
arm as Churchill walks up andthey shake hands.
I mean, this is just such amoment, it's one of my favorite
moments in all of the Rooseveltstory, because this is the
moment in which.
everything on.
If they
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (35:57):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (36:00):
then nothing would have worked in
World War II.
instead they formed thisremarkable bond.
You know, the specialrelationship as, as they called
it.
And they disagreed on a lot ofthings.
Now, Churchill was really hopingthat FDR would, if not declare
war on Germany, at least agreeto send more weapons and things.
But what Roosevelt really wantedwas a press release.
(36:20):
He wanted to use words asweapons against Hitler.
He wanted to show why are wedifferent?
Why do we have the moral upperground here?
And so the Atlantic charter isactually eight statements, uh,
and it really is, it's not atreaty or anything.
It's just really like a pressrelease where the United States
and England agree that therewill be no territorial gains,
(36:42):
that all people have a right toself determination, that trade
barriers should be lowered, thatthere should be economic
cooperation, there should be aworld free of fear and want, uh,
there should be freedom of theseas, and most importantly,
there should be disarmament.
it's this sort of framework foroutlining.
The world as it could be, and itbuilds somewhat on the for
(37:05):
freedom speech that he gaveearlier that year.
The most important thing wasthis idea about self
determination churchill thoughtthat this referred to those
countries that had beendominated and conquered by
Germany or Italy or Japan.
Um, Roosevelt thought it appliedto everybody, even the British
colonies.
And of course
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (37:23):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (37:24):
fight about this, this.
Became the foundation for whateventually was the United
Nations and the idea of theelimination of the empires of
Europe and the freedom of thesecountries for self
determination.
And in some cases that workedout well, in some cases it
didn't, you know, we, we knowthe history, some things are
(37:44):
still evolving,
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (37:45):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (37:46):
was important for Roosevelt that
they have this framework of whywe're going to fight to the
Americans and for the Britishand for the British Empire, why
we're fighting this war againstNazi Germany.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (37:58):
Mm hmm.
A monumental meeting for sure,and they didn't know them, but
what, just four months later,Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and
we're drawn fully into the war.
How did Lindbergh respond toPearl Harbor and our entry at
that point into World War II?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (38:15):
Well, I'll answer that question a
second because there's apostscript to the Atlantic
Conference meeting, which
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (38:20):
Oh, please.
Yes.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (38:21):
the HMS.
of Wales was there.
And on the second day of theconference, they have this huge
religious service on the backdeck of HMS Prince of Wales.
The American sailors come over.
There's hundreds of them there.
They sing hymns.
Churchill and Roosevelt areseated.
All of their military leadersare behind them.
It's just very powerful.
(38:42):
Emotional moment, you know,onward Christian soldiers and
near my God to thee and allthese ideas of how Americans and
British share this sort ofstrong cultural tradition.
And then just a few days afterPearl Harbor, the HMS Prince of
Wales has sunk and almost all ofthe 800 sailors who were on that
ship during the Atlanticconference die.
(39:03):
so it was a huge blow toChurchill personally because it
was one of the Navy's mostimportant ships.
But it was also this emotionalblow that they had shared this
experience with these people.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (39:15):
Oh, horrendous.
Oh,
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (39:17):
So, yeah, so Pearl Harbor happens on
December 7th.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (39:21):
hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (39:22):
Uh, and, and there was actually a
Conference that the Americafirst had scheduled a big anti
Roosevelt meeting that was goingto happen.
after Pearl Harbor on December8th Lindbergh comes out with a
statement saying the UnitedStates has now been attacked by
force of arms We must defendourselves by force of arms.
a couple of digs in in RooseveltNo matter how we may have
(39:44):
opposed bad leadership in thepast.
We must all come together nowand defend America and of course
he tried to re enlist You uh,you know, he was very good
friends with a number of veryhigh ranking people and military
people in the Rooseveltadministration.
George Marshall was a fan ofhis.
Hap Arnold, who was the head ofthe U S army air force who had
gotten all the intelligence thathe had fed to the U S out before
(40:06):
the war.
Uh, but you know, the word wasout.
He
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (40:09):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (40:10):
FDR had said to a group of senators,
I'm going to clip that youngman's wings.
none of the military serviceswere going to let him in.
none of the military, industrialcomplex.
Companies that he would go tobecause you would think they
would want to hire him.
They said like, no, we don't, wecan't touch you.
You know, we don't want our verylucrative armaments contracts
(40:31):
being yanked out for under us ifwe hire you.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (40:34):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (40:34):
who's the end up going to work for
Henry Ford?
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (40:37):
Yeah, of course.
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (40:40):
this mile long manufacturing plant,
Willow Run, to build these B 24bombers.
Uh, and there was a lot ofproblems.
They, they had fallen behindschedule.
They were having a lot ofquality control problems.
And Ford hires Lindbergh to comein and help improve
manufacturing and improve thequality of the plane.
And he works there for severalyears.
(41:00):
And he really does bring A very,very high level of to this
challenge.
And he does help improve theplane.
It's never going to be a greatplane, but he does help improve
the plane.
He helps improve manufacturing.
But what's interesting is thattowards the end of the war, he
goes to the Pacific as a privatecontractor, essentially to help
the U S Marines.
(41:21):
Who's Fighter planes are havingtrouble with the Japanese zero
fighter planes.
Um, and he helps redesign theplanes essentially in the field,
which improves their range andimproves their fuel efficiency.
He helps them with their weaponsystems helps them tweak their
engines.
And so all of a sudden there'sthis tremendous Improvement in
(41:41):
the quality of these planes thatthe Marines were flying.
And then he flies 50 combatmissions as essentially as a
private citizen, withoutanybody's approval back East.
Right.
Because when you're in a wartimeand there's a guy there on the
runway and he's a great pilotand there's a plane sitting
there and you got guys gettingshot down, guess what?
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (42:00):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (42:00):
your seat in the plane.
and so in many ways he sort ofredeems himself.
And then when Ike Eisenhowerbecomes president in the 1950s,
he, reinstates Lindbergh'sstatus as an officer in what's
now the U.
S.
Air Force and he ends upretiring as a lieutenant
general.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25 (42:21):
I see.
So, again, a terrific book,Paul.
I mean, I could talk all day toyou about this.
Really, I encourage ourlisteners to go out and get
Awakening the Spirit of America,FDR's War of Words with Charles
Lindbergh and the Battle to SaveDemocracy.
Paul Sparrow, what's next foryou?
A
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (42:38):
Well, I'm working on another book, of
course.
Um, I, right now though, I'msort of traveling around talking
about the book, doing podcasts,trying to get people aware.
I mean, you know, we live in afraught time.
We see divisions in this countrymany of which I think FDR's
message resonates with, his ideawas that ultimately, Americans
have to come together and do theright thing.
(42:59):
I think the issue around Ukraineand Russia right now is very
similar to the issue withEngland and Germany.
I think this misinformationcampaign that's happening
against America right now,people have to understand that
we share a set of core values.
Even though he took officeduring the worst of the
depression and faced the worldwar two, two of the greatest
crises in American history, FDRreally believed in the American
(43:23):
system.
And I think we have to look atthat and say, if he could
believe in the American systemin the darkest days of our
republic, then we have aresponsibility to do the same.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2 (43:36):
perfect way to end our conversation,
Paul.
Really, thank you so very muchfor joining us, and I want to
thank everyone out there forlistening.
Please visit AmericanPOTUS.
org and consider supporting ourwork.
Thank you very much, and makesure you join us again next time
on American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS, where we're
devoted to the history of thePresidents and the Presidency.
We're joined by the very bestexperts from around the globe,
giving their perspectives on thehistory of the office and those
who've held it.
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and onthis episode, I'm joined by my
friend, Paul Sparrow.
I got to know Paul when he wasnamed Director of the wonderful
Franklin D.
Roosevelt Presidential LibraryMuseum in Hyde Park, New York,
(00:26):
where he served for many years.
Prior to that, he was DeputyDirector and Senior Vice
President at the museum inWashington, D.
C.
Paul also has been an Emmy awardwinning documentary and
television producer.
He now is a historicalconsultant and writer, and he's
written a wonderful book thatwe're going to discuss today
titled Awakening the Spirit ofAmerica, FDR's War of Words with
(00:48):
Charles Lindbergh and the Battleto Save Democracy.
Paul, thanks so much for joiningus on American POTUS.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (00:54):
Thank you for having me, Alan.
And this is a great podcast.
I really love it.
You cover a lot of details andyou have wonderful guests on.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (01:01):
Well, thank you so much.
And I have a wonderful guesttoday.
It's great to catch up with you.
And I've really enjoyedAwakening the Spirit of America.
Really a terrific book, Paul.
Thank you for it.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (01:10):
Thank you.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (01:11):
So let's get back to the very, very
beginning here.
And you know, something Iwondered, I went into this book
as, you know, knowing a littlebit about FDR, but not that much
about Charles Lindbergh.
And I wondered as I startedreading, you know, how much did
FDR and Lindbergh know eachother?
Before this battle of words andideas began,
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (01:30):
They really didn't have much contact
prior to this.
You know, when Lindbergh, madehis famous flight, across the
Atlantic to Paris in 1927, FDRwas still sort of in his
wilderness years in his recoveryperiod from, from polio.
But, uh, And so he wasn't reallyon the national stage.
He became governor of New Yorkin 1928, but they never really
(01:50):
crossed paths, uh, during thatperiod.
And then after Lindbergh's sonwas kidnapped and murdered, when
1932, the same year FDR becamepresident, then he became this
target of intense media andtabloid, uh, attention.
And so, uh, Charles Lindberghand his wife moved.
Out of the country and lived inEngland and Europe for a number
(02:10):
of years, so he didn't reallyreturn back to the United States
until early 1939, at which pointin April of 1939, he did visit
FDR at the White House, and thiswas really their first meeting,
and it's very interesting inhis, uh, uh, diary and Lindbergh
describes their meeting.
And he says, you know, uh, Ithink I can get along with him.
(02:32):
He's very personable, verycharming, great
conversationalists.
I just don't know if I trusthim.
Um, and so right off the bat,there's a little bit of this
difference.
And of course, by 1939 FDR sortof, Pro, intervention attitude
had become fairly well known.
This is before the war startedand Lindbergh, even then, I
think had pretty proisolationist points of view.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25 (02:55):
I think it's kind of difficult for
us now to recognize that kind ofthe depth and the breadth of
Lindbergh's popularity, his famearound the world, can you give
us maybe some idea of how iconiche was here and across the globe
when this story begins?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (03:10):
well, in 1927, he makes the flight, he
becomes probably one of the mostfamous people in the world.
I mean, his fame and celebritytranscended national boundaries,
to give you an example.
So, uh, later on in 1927, hedecides to embark on this.
A multinational goodwill tour toCentral and South America.
And his first stop is Mexico.
(03:32):
So he flies to Mexico city.
And it's a big news that he'scoming and 150, 000 people and
the entire Mexico city policeforce, plus a number of national
guard and, soldiers come to theairport.
to see him arrive.
And it's absolutely a mob scene.
So this is Mexico City, youknow, 150, 000 people turning up
(03:53):
for him.
So that gives you some sense.
and then of course he was thefirst everyday hero of aviation
era.
His flight was Extraordinarilycomplicated and difficult and
courageous.
And he was also an aviationgenius.
So he becomes a very importantspokesperson for the aviation
industry in those early years.
(04:15):
Uh, and then of course hiscelebrity is only magnified
enormously after the tragickidnapping and murder of his
son.
And so he becomes, he and hiswife become these tabloid
targets.
So I would say, you know, one ofthe four or five most famous
people in the world.
during that period.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (04:33):
So when you look at the, the
opposition that was starting togrow to Roosevelt's seeming
interventionist policies, or atleast thoughts at that point,
prior to the war starting, washe the most influential of
those, the most vocal opponentof the president in that regard?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (04:49):
Well, it's, it's interesting because
it evolves over time.
I mean, first of all, no one ofhim as an isolationist.
He was not political.
He had not given a radio speechin almost 10 years.
You know, when he firstreappears back on the scene.
And so when Germany invades,Poland, in 1939, September 1939.
(05:11):
And it becomes obvious thatthere's this momentum for
America to take sides with theAllies.
That's when he decides to stepup and start doing these radio
broadcasts and speeches in whichhe articulates, uh, very clearly
and calmly and in a very, very,uh, reasonable tone with very
logical arguments that theUnited States shouldn't get
involved in European affairs,that we are protected by two
(05:33):
oceans.
We really don't need to getinvolved in this.
Uh, and he sort of, insertshimself into this conversation
and it's very unusual inAmerican history for a
celebrity, nonpoliticalcelebrity, to to insert himself
into a political debate likethis and take on the president
of the United States.
Now there were a lot of very,very powerful isolationists, you
(05:54):
know, William Randolph Hearst,the newspaper publisher, Henry
Ford, one of the richestindustrial titans in the world.
Uh, Colonel McCormick, who ranthe Chicago Tribune and WGN
radio station.
There were a number of very,very rich.
Powerful men who believedAmerica should not get involved
in this war and in fact hadbusiness dealings and ownerships
and sympathy with the NaziGerman government.
(06:18):
Particularly people like HenryFord who had many factories over
there and was awarded one of thegreat German medals for his
support of Nazi Germany.
And then there were a number ofvery powerful politicians.
Senator Burton Wheeler, who wasa Democrat, was one of the most
outspoken isolationists, as wasRobert Taft, the Senator Taft
and, uh, Hamilton Fish, who Ithink we'll probably get into
(06:39):
later, who was a congressman whorepresented FDR's home district
and who was a Republican.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (06:45):
And you noted people like Ford
seeming to have a preference forGermany in some of that.
Not all of it obviously wasbusiness related, but with
Lindbergh, I was really shockedin reading this book of how much
that preference really wasthere, that he saw that system
as preferable to what we had.
So can you tell us a bit aboutthat?
(07:05):
Where did that preference for akind of a non democratic type of
government come from withLindbergh and those around him?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (07:12):
Well, it's interesting because as I
said, when he went to Europe,Because of the media hounding
him in the United States, um, hetraveled quite a bit.
And he first landed in England.
He and his wife lived in Englandfor a while.
Then they lived in France.
And he saw England and France asthese sort of decaying
democracies.
You know, everybody was stilljust sort of coming out of the
Great Depression.
Uh, but he saw them as, uh,lethargic and basically living
(07:38):
on the glories of their past.
And then of course, becauseGermany at that point in the mid
1930s was developing their,military capabilities in
violation of the treaties thatended World War I.
They were doing a lot ofdevelopment of their air force,
the Luftwaffe.
And of course, Lindbergh was oneof the great.
Aviation experts in the world.
So both for propaganda reasonsand for technical reasons, they
(08:00):
would invite, Lindbergh to cometo Germany and visit their
facilities or aviationfacilities, fly their planes.
And Lindbergh was extremelyimpressed with the dynamism and
the activity and the energy hesaw in Germany, this resurgent
economy, this dynamic industry,and this very, very superior
technology that the Germans werebringing to their airplanes.
(08:23):
And of course now he was veryopen about this.
There's nothing secret.
He would report, Colonel Smith,who was the military attache,
the U.
S.
military attache in Berlin.
Whenever Lindbergh would go toGermany and fly these planes and
visit the aviation facilities,he would report, to Smith at the
American embassy and give adetailed report about the state
(08:43):
of the U.
S.
German aviation, which was very,very valuable.
Matter of fact, he was probablythe most valuable source for
American intelligence.
Of course, there was no Americanintelligence.
There was no CIA or anythinglike that then.
and our air force consisted ofless than 2000 planes.
We only had 225, 000 soldiers inour standing army.
We had a semi decent Navy, butwe were like ranked 18th or 19th
in the world in terms of ourmilitary capability.
(09:06):
And we were very far behind inour.
design and manufacturingtechniques.
So this was very valuableinformation.
And I think that's really whenhe bonded with this autocratic,
highly disciplined, veryefficient society.
Which when he was there hereceived the German Eagle cross
(09:26):
just two weeks beforeKristallnacht, you know, Goring
himself presented the medal tohim at an American embassy
event.
Just two weeks beforeKristallnacht in 1938, which of
course was the terrible attackson Jewish businesses and Jewish
civilians and the beginning ofmoving Jews into concentration
camps.
And it was after that, inNovember, 1938, that he and his
(09:48):
wife decided, okay, we need toprobably move back to the United
States now.
But he brought with him justenormous respect for the Nazi,
society.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (09:59):
Well, how did he respond in seeing
those oppressions of Jews andother opponents of the Nazi
government?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (10:04):
Well, he and his wife both sort of,
you know, it's unfortunatetreatment and he didn't approve
of the treatment and he, spokeout in opposition to it.
But you see in his writings inhis diaries, in his speeches,
you see this anti Semiticthread.
At first it's somewhat subtle,but it becomes more and more
obvious until it becomesoutright blatantly anti Semitic.
You know, he starts by talkingabout the small minority of
(10:25):
Americans who control our mediaand the propaganda they're
feeding the Americans, andpeople are being misled by this
small minority.
And then finally, in the end, hejust comes right out and says,
you know, the three forces thatare trying to drive us into this
war are the British government,the Roosevelt administration and
the Jews,
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (10:41):
Mm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (10:41):
going to be bad for the Jews so he
just comes right out and saysthat.
And of course, you know, check,the truth is less than 3 percent
of the media properties in theUnited States were owned by Jews
during this period.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (10:53):
Mm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (10:53):
Now, there were some very high
profile Jewish ownership ofHollywood studios and things,
but this was all just
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (11:02):
Uh, leaving aside the horrible anti
Semitism and the respect for theautocratic nature of the
government, uh, Lindbergh, alongwith other isolationists, seem
to have this feeling ofInvulnerability from attack
because of the oceans, but I, Iwondered, before and certainly
when reading your book Limburgof all people, why did he
believe that he had flown acrossthe Atlantic for goodness sake?
(11:23):
He knew that the worlds werecoming together.
Uh, why did he still have thatbelief that isolationism was
even possible on this day andage?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-202 (11:32):
That's a great question.
And one that I can't answerbecause you're right.
There is no logic to it,especially from a person who
understood that the newgeneration of German bombers
were capable of flying, youknow, thousand plus miles, and,
uh, this new generation ofGerman fighters were highly
effective and you hadbattleships that you'd already
seen the emergence of aircraftcarriers.
So there was no logic to it, butagain, it was consistent His
(11:55):
point of view, which was thatAmerica should not get involved
and his three rationales were,we're protected by two oceans.
We're a very large country witha large population and we're
heavily industrial.
No one would ever dare to attackus.
and he ignored the idea thatAmerica had a role to play as a
protector of democracy.
And that's one of the bigissues, the sort of right and
(12:16):
wrong issue that.
Roosevelt was most concernedwith, which was that he felt
that this was a battle of goodversus evil.
And Lindbergh just veryspecifically denied and rejected
that argument.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (12:30):
And one of those groups that
Lindbergh worked with eventuallywas something called the America
First Committee.
Can you tell us about that andwhat Lindbergh's role became in
that committee?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (12:40):
Sure.
And it's an interesting storybecause it started out in
September of 1940 on the Yalecampus.
It was really a student anti wargroup, not unlike the student
anti war groups against theVietnam war in the 1960s.
although it was.
Labeled as isolationists, theyreally were, it was more about,
they were anti war.
They didn't think America shoulddo anything to prolong this war
(13:00):
or to get involved in this war.
And there were a number ofpeople who went on to be very
moderate or liberals who werepart of the initial core group.
You know, Gerald Ford went on tobe president.
Potter Stewart became a SupremeCourt justice.
Sergeant Shriver led the PeaceCorps.
They were all students at Yaleat the time.
And they were part of theinitial sort of formulation.
But then as it launched andbecame public, they brought in,
A colonel who was the head ofSears and Roebuck company who
(13:24):
sort of took over, who was veryanti Semitic.
And the headquarters moved toChicago where McCormick was
involved.
And then as it grew and becamemore virulently anti Roosevelt
as well as anti war the antiSemitism and the pro Nazi groups
became involved.
And remember 1940 is an electionyear.
So there's enormous politicalturmoil.
(13:48):
because, know, FDR decides torun for an unprecedented third
term violating GeorgeWashington's initial decision to
limit a presidential term totwo.
And that there is this sensethat Germany is going to win.
Britain has no hope.
Why are we supporting Britain?
We should be backing Germany.
(14:09):
The obvious winner,
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (14:13):
So the initial pushback against FDR
from Lindbergh, the AmericaFirst Committee, all these
others, how did he start tocounter those voices of
opposition in those years beforewe were actually in the war?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (14:29):
but it's a great question.
And it's, it's interestingbecause the, you have to have a
little historical context here,right?
Because he had served from Marchof 1933, taking over the height
of the great depression, thebank crisis, all that stuff.
So for six years, America hadbeen slowly clawing its way out
of this horrific economiccatastrophe.
(14:50):
You know, the 25 percentunemployment, people living in
the streets, there was no socialsecurity.
There was no welfare.
There was no food dependentchildren.
If you were broke and lost yourjob, you got kicked out of your
house.
You lived on the street.
I mean, the conditions wereterrible and there was a lot of
resentment against particularlyFrance and England because they
hadn't fully paid off theirworld war one debts.
(15:11):
And the failure of some of thosepayments are one of the things
that led to, you know, the stockmarket crash in 1929.
So there was resentment aboutthat.
And there was also an antiSemitic component, which was
that we had been dragged intoworld war one by manipulation by
international bankers, which ofcourse is a code word for the
Jewish business cabal thatallegedly runs the world.
(15:34):
So all those factors were atplay.
In addition to thisUnfortunately, persistent anti
immigrant thread that runsthroughout American history.
You know, 1924, the Congresspassed a whole new set of
immigration quotas.
The Chinese Exclusionary Act,where Chinese people weren't
allowed to come.
There was legislation preventingJapanese citizens from becoming
(15:55):
American citizens.
They would, they would have toremain, Japanese citizens, even
if their children were born inthis country and became American
citizens.
So there was enormous antiimmigrant sentiment, because of
the Great Depression.
So that was all sort of thebase.
And then when the war breaksout, this idea of who are we
going to support and why can'twe just stay out of it?
Let's not get dragged intoanother one of these European
(16:17):
land wars.
At that point, although it wasobvious that the Germans were
abusing They're Jewish citizens.
horrors hadn't come out yet.
People didn't really know oreven really believe that Germany
was going to do the things theysaid they were going to do.
really going to annihilate allthe Jews in Europe.
Yeah, well, that was their plan,but people didn't believe it.
(16:40):
So, and some people looked atGermany and said, look, they,
you know, they've got Fullemployment.
You know, they've got thisdynamic leader.
Look at Italy, Mussolini.
He's dragged that country out ofdepression.
Maybe there's something to thistotalitarian regime.
Maybe we need a strong man asour leader.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (16:57):
So FDR, how did he, at that point,
early on, you, you talk aboutpeople like Harry Hopkins and
Robert Sherwood, Sam Roseman,and others that helped him start
to counter the attacks fromLimburg and others.
And you mentioned thesewonderful speeches, by the way.
I know we, I want to go intoseveral of those, but can you
tell us a bit maybe about that,Troy?
Of of Hopkins, sir?
Sir.
(17:17):
Wood and Rosan.
And how they worked with FDR tohelp counter those attacks.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (17:23):
Well, those three men played.
Exactly into the question, thebeginning of your question,
which is how did FDR respond?
Uh, and so starting in 1939,we'll start in September again
when the war starts about 70percent of Americans didn't want
to get involved.
And so FDR knew that his visionthat, uh, It's America's
responsibility to help otherdemocracies was going up against
(17:44):
public opinion.
So he knew he had to be cautiousand go slowly and convince the
American public, to understandtheir role as the protector of
democracy.
You know, he called it the soulof America, the spirit of
America, the idea that we are acountry based on immigrants and
on freedom.
And our core value is ourwillingness to fight for
freedom.
So when almost every speech hegives, he works at, and he works
(18:06):
in Washington and Lincoln and.
He even talks about musteringthe troops on the green and he's
constantly trying to, as I say,my title awaken the spirit of
America, which had been, youknow, knocked unconscious by
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (18:21):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (18:22):
Um, and so that's his.
His strategy, as I say his mostpowerful weapon in his fight
against isolationists werewords.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (18:29):
Mm
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (18:30):
and of course the three great
wordsmiths that he brought in tobe his team, Harry Hopkins had
been with him for a long time.
He had run the works projectadministration.
He had been with him when he wasthe governor of New York, very,
very shrewd political mind,quite brilliant.
Uh, Winston Churchill called himMr.
Root of the matter because hewould always go right to the
issue and address it.
(18:51):
Uh, judge Sam Roseman was a NewYork Supreme court justice who
had been again with Rooseveltfor years since he was governor.
And even though he was a sittingSupreme court justice, he would
go down to Washington onweekends and help write speeches
and he's often credited withcoining the term, the new deal.
Um, but then by 1940, they had,Decided they needed a new, fresh
(19:13):
voice, someone to help pick uptheir.
quality of their writing andpersuasiveness.
And so they turned to a ratherunusual source, a completely
apolitical playwright andscreenwriter named Robert
Sherwood, who was both aPulitzer and Oscar winning
writer.
And so they, Brought him in tosort of add poetry to their
(19:34):
prose.
And the three of them wereincredibly effective.
Now, of course, Roosevelthimself was quite a good speech
writer, and he really had asense how to communicate with
the American public and, and howto be persuasive.
I, I thought I talked a lotabout persuasive language and
you take apart his speeches andyou see this visual metaphors
(19:54):
that he uses, you know, he callsGerman U boats the rattlesnakes
of the Atlantic, you
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (19:58):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (19:59):
lots Uh, simple ways of explaining
things to the American publicthat helps them understand
either the historical context orthe moment in which we're in.
So that he just keeps repeatingand repeating and pushing and
pushing, uh, this idea that it'sour responsibility to be a
citizen of the world.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (20:18):
And our responsibility to be the
arsenal of democracy, as hecalls it in his speech in
December of 1940.
So, can you tell us a bit aboutthat very important speech and
why he felt comfortable, that'sthe word at that point, in
making that speech at the end of1940?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (20:35):
Well, that speech is part of this
extraordinary period of about,uh, 30 days, uh, so he wins re
election in November of 1940,and at this point it's like the
gloves are coming off, you know,I, I don't have to play the
political game anymore.
I won the election.
Now we're going to do what Ithink we should do.
And he goes on a vacation in theCaribbean, not vacation, he goes
(20:55):
on a big naval cruise ship tovisit a number of British bases
that had been traded for somedestroyers we gave to them.
and so as he's cruising aroundthe Caribbean, he gets this
incredible letter fromChurchill, 4, 000 word letter
that Churchill described as themost important he ever wrote,
where Churchill basically says,look, we're broke and we can't
continue to pay for theseweapons you're providing us, you
(21:17):
know, you have to help us.
And Roosevelt thinks and thinksand he tries to come up with
something and he comes back doesa press conference and he says,
you know, two neighbor's housewas on fire, and he comes over
and asked to borrow your gardenhose to put out the fire.
You'd lend him the garden hose.
You wouldn't charge him for it.
And he would use the gardenhose, put the fire out.
And when he was done, he wouldreturn the garden hose.
(21:37):
And if it's not, if it'sdamaged, he'd buy you a new one.
And he sort of plants the seed.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (21:42):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-202 (21:43):
later, he does this amazing fireside
chat on December 29th, 1940,which we now think of as the
Arsenal of Democracy, speech, inwhich he talks about, again,
this responsibility we have.
He references Washington andLincoln and great American
traditions and how we have aresponsibility to be the
defenders of democracy.
And he uses this phrase, we mustbecome the great arsenal of
(22:06):
democracy because it taps intoAmerica's greatest strength,
which was his industrial mightand the ability of us to out
manufacture anyone else, butcommit our most precious
resource.
It doesn't commit young lives,right?
He's
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (22:22):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25- (22:22):
soldiers.
He's just committing ourindustrial capacity.
and so people really like thisidea.
And he introduces few dayslater, he does another speech,
which he introduces the conceptof lend lease.
We're going to lend theseweapons to England because
they're more value, they're moreuseful in protecting our
security if they're in the handsof British soldiers over there
(22:42):
than if they're sitting inwarehouses here in America.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (22:45):
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (22:45):
And in that speech where he
introduces the concept of lendlease at the end, he talks about
the four freedoms.
Why is this important?
And what.
motivates America to be thearsenal of democracy.
talks about the freedom fromwant and the freedom from fear
and the freedom of religion andthe freedom of speech everywhere
in the world.
(23:05):
And this is the best explanationof his motivation and passion
for this whole thing is that hereally believes that everybody
in the world deserves equalopportunity.
They deserve to live in acountry, but the government is
of their own choosing.
Uh, and, and this is sort of hisdriving force in which he, Tries
to motivate America and theworld in understanding this
(23:29):
existential threat that's beingposed to democracy by these
fascist regimes.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (23:35):
An existential threat to our
survival and not just a war ofgovernments, but a war of ideas.
He's framing it and reallyamazingly done.
As this Lynne Lease program getsunderway or as it's being
debated, Lindbergh is out thereplaying a major role.
How did he try to defeat LynneLease before it got started?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_15 (23:56):
So right after the Arsenal
Democracy speech and the ForFreedom speech FDR submits to
Congress H.
R.
1776.
Interesting date he would choosefor it, which is the Lend Lease
Bill.
and then one week after it goesto Congress, Hamilton Fish, who
was one of FDR's congressionalnemeses, invites Charles
(24:16):
Lindbergh to the testify beforeCongress regarding Lend Lease.
And when Lindbergh arrives theway the newspapers described it,
he was mobbed by the press.
You know, like he was aHollywood superstar, flashbulbs
going out, huge crowd chasinghim through uh, congressional
offices.
Uh, when he gets into the, uh,Witness chair the of the press
(24:40):
around him is so outrageous thatthe judge has to call in
basically security to clear themaway from him so that Lindbergh
could testify.
So that's the context when itstarts.
And then he gives a, preparedintroduction, then he answers
questions for hours.
And does a really excellent andremarkable job.
Again, you remember he has thissort of casual Midwestern tone.
(25:02):
He's still got his boyish charmand good looks.
Uh, he's sort of understated.
Everything he says seems veryreasonable.
He talks about how it's notAmerica's role to protect other
countries and that he hadwritten a Uh, magazine article
where he said, you know, Germanyjust wants what England and
France had a hundred years ago.
They went out and conqueredterritories all over the world
and, and now it's fine.
(25:24):
But when Germany tries to do it,it's not.
And so it's a rather testimony.
Matter of fact, it's soeffective that the chairman of
the committee says, you are thebest witness we have ever heard
from in my time in Congress.
And when Lindbergh gets up toleave the 50 members of the
committee.
bipartisan, up and give him astanding ovation.
(25:48):
If you can imagine that.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (25:50):
It is hard to imagine.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (25:52):
and so there was a majority of
Congress who opposed Lend Lease.
There was a majority ofAmericans who weren't very
supportive of it.
But, but, but, You know, withinthree months of debate, Lend
Lease passes in March of 1941.
And it is essentially what savedEngland from going under.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (26:11):
So two questions from that, Paul.
First, with that testimony ofLindbergh, how did Roosevelt
respond?
Did he respond directly?
How did his people respond tothat?
And then of course the obviousquestion is how in three months
after that, did he get LynneLease over the finish line?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (26:26):
Never underestimate the political
skills of Franklin Roosevelt.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_ (26:31):
Right.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (26:31):
Um, he was.
truly brilliant politician.
And yes, he made compromises.
There are things he did thatwere terrible.
You know, the incarceration ofJapanese Americans, his refusal
to support the federal antilynching law.
There's lots of things you cancriticize about him, almost all
of which were done for politicalexpediency, to get.
(26:53):
But in this moment, he hadcarefully constructed a
consortium of support withinCongress.
Now, again, the Democratic Partyhad super majorities in both
houses.
So, but his biggest opponentswere not just Republicans, but
also Southern conservativeDemocrats.
And so he was able to pressurethem to, um, As a coalition to
(27:17):
pass Lend Lease, and as hecontinued to talk about it, and
people were out there promotingit, the public became more and
more supportive of it.
So during this entire periodfrom early 1940 through till
Pearl Harbor at the end of 1941,you see this gradual shifting of
American public opinion fromstrongly isolationist to
strongly interventionist.
(27:37):
And that's mostly driven byFDR's persuasive language.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (27:42):
Did he take on Lindbergh directly or
did his people do a directsaying, you know, Lindbergh's
wrong and we're right?
How did that work?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (27:51):
Well, it's interesting.
His, Most effectivecounterattacks came from his
cabinet members.
Harold
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (27:58):
hmm.
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_15 (28:01):
in attacking Lindbergh.
but it, it's not until fairlylate in 1941 that he first
really addresses Lindbergh.
And that's when at a pressconference, and this is during a
period after they'd had somecontentious back and forth
where, uh, FDR's administrationhad accused him of not being a
(28:21):
loyal American.
Why didn't he give back thisGerman award?
And Lindbergh had resigned his,office in the, U.
S.
Army Air Force Reserves as acolonel.
And he was criticized for that.
And then one of the reporters ata press conference asks Mr.
Roosevelt specifically aboutLindbergh.
And this is the first time youget this direct question answer
(28:43):
event.
Uh, and he says at a, at amoment where we desperately need
pilots, skilled aviators andpilots, why don't you?
Vi, you know, Charles Lindberghto join the US Army Air Force
and Roosevelt in the way heoften did, he leaned back and
sort of took a dag on acigarette and he started talking
(29:04):
about this copperhead during theCivil War.
And the Copperheads were thenortherners who supported the
South.
talked about how thesecopperheads were appeasers and
they kept saying that we shouldjust.
give up.
We don't want the South.
Let, let the South do what theywant.
And then he started talkingabout the, the naysayers when
George Washington was at ValleyForge and, oh, we're never going
(29:25):
to win this war.
We should just give up.
It goes this whole sort ofhistory lesson about the people
who had tried to prevent Lincolnand Washington from doing the
great things that led to ourvictories.
And finally, when the reportersays, are we still talking about
Charles Lindbergh?
And the room laughs and, uh,said, yes.
like, can we quote you on that?
(29:45):
And Roosevelt says, yes.
So that's the first time youreally see him directly going at
Lindbergh.
And of course, Lindbergh wasoutraged that the president of
the United States would accusehim of.
Being an appeaser andunpatriotic.
And so it escalates this war ofwords.
But interestingly, you know, hehad Lindbergh's wife indirectly
(30:07):
during one of his speeches.
She had come out with a book inthe fall of 1940 called The Wave
of the Future.
Now, Ann, Lindbergh was a veryaccomplished writer.
She had written severalbestselling books.
She was a very accomplishedwoman in a lot of ways.
And she wrote this book, TheWave of the Future, which was a
short book, which she did to tryto explain her husband's point
of view, because obviously sheknew they were embroiled in this
(30:29):
extremely contentious debate.
But in the book, she basicallysays democracy is the past,
fascism and totalitarianism isthe wave of the future, and that
the Nazis are just a scum ridingon the surface, they won't last,
but this idea of a totalitariangovernment really is the future
and we should embrace it.
(30:49):
As you
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (30:50):
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2 (30:50):
imagine, the book was not well received,
Of his speeches, FDR says, thereare those who say that fascism
is the wave of the future anddemocracy is the past.
I don't believe it.
We will Press forward.
We will never give up.
Democracy will survive.
This is not our last chapter.
So it had, by that point, it hadgotten pretty personal.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (31:08):
Yeah.
You note in the book a placethat we both love very much, the
FDR Presidential Library Museumwas created, you say, by FDR as
an act of his faith in democracyand the soul of America.
How do you see that being thecase?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (31:24):
You know, FDR was a collector.
He loved to collect stuff.
He collected books.
He collected ship models.
He collected paintings.
He collected rare manuscripts ofthe U.
S.
Navy in its earliest days.
And he considered himself, youknow, an amateur archivist.
As a matter of fact the U.
S.
National Archives opened duringhis administration, that giant
building on Pennsylvania Avenue.
(31:44):
He was there for the christeningof it.
Uh, the U.
S.
archivist was one of his closestassociates.
And so he had this vision.
created a committee that lookedinto what had happened to the
presidential papers of previouspresidents.
And it was, it was a horrorstory.
Some presidents burned them.
Some of them sat in warehousesand rotted.
Some of them were given away andsold.
Some of them went to colleges orthey, some papers were here,
(32:06):
some were the library ofCongress.
And so he really thought itwould be important having come
through the great depression tohave all of his papers in one
place where historians could seethem.
And he hoped that the papers ofhis, of his predecessors, Other
members of his administrationwould all be in one place at his
home in Hyde Park.
And that would also give him aplace to show all the cool stuff
that people had given him andhis ship collection and his
(32:28):
painting collection and hisbooks.
And all of this he was giving tothe American public.
Um, it was donating it.
So this is the firstpresidential library.
That was run by the NationalArchives.
You know, there are otherpresidential libraries, quote,
that are private, uh, that stillhave papers and they're fairly
organized, but they weren't tothe American people.
(32:49):
This is the first time.
The FDR presidential library wasreally the inception of the
presidential library system wehave today.
Every president since then hashad some form of facility.
There's been a formal set ofcodified laws, the Presidential
Records Act, which says thesepapers don't belong to the
president.
They belong to the Americanpublic.
As you know, recent events haveshown how controversial this is
(33:12):
and, um, there There is animportance to protecting those
documents, preserving them forthe future historians.
There's lots of controversyaround who gets to look at them
and how fast do they beprocessed, but the core concept
is still valid today.
The American public have a rightto know how our government
works, and the U.
S.
National Archives is the rightorganization to preserve and
(33:33):
protect those documents.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (33:35):
Yeah, certainly.
I spent a good part of my careerthere believing very firmly in
what you just said, Paul.
So there are great institutions.
Um, one other thing you talkabout in this, again, terrific
book is the Atlantic Charter.
So, can you tell us a bit aboutwhat the charter was?
What did it mean for the AngloAmerican relationship?
And what were its, before thewar, prior to Pearl Harbor, I
(33:56):
should say, and then what wereits longer term effects?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (33:59):
Well, you know to understand the
Atlantic Charter, you have tohave a little bit of the
context, which is that FDR andChurchill had never met face to
face, or they had met brieflyduring World War I, but not as
leaders over their country.
And Churchill really wanted tomeet with FDR because he was
convinced that if he could justmeet with him, he could convince
him to declare war on Germany.
And Roosevelt was a fairly wilycharacter.
(34:20):
So, in August of 1941, theyagreed to have this secret
meeting.
Rendezvous.
And Roosevelt loved pullingtricks on the press.
So in his press conference, hesays, yeah, I'm going to take a
vacation.
I'm going to get on thepresidential yacht, the USS
Potomac.
We're going to go up the coast.
I'm going to go visit my home inCampobello, Canada and cruise
along the coast.
And the boat takes off to greatfanfare and he drives up the
(34:42):
coast to Cape Cod and goes intothe towns and he waves to people
from the boat.
And then in the middle of night,he gets on a little shuttle, and
they take him over to the USSAugusta, a USS Navy heavy
cruiser that takes him up toPlacentia Bay in Newfoundland,
where he has a secret rendezvouswith Churchill.
Meanwhile, the Potomac, the USPotomac is cruising along the
(35:02):
coast.
One of the crewmen is in awheelchair with the top hat and
a cigarette holder being wheeledup and down the deck with the
presidential flag flying.
Um.
Pretending to be Roosevelt and,you know, tourists would wave at
him.
There were no press allowed onthe boat, even Eleanor and his
cabinet members did not knowwhere he was.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (35:18):
Hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_15 (35:19):
So he goes up the USS Augustus at
anchor and out of the fogemerges HMS Prince of Wales,
this massive.
British dreadnought that hadjust finished sinking, helping
sink the Bismarck, still hadbattle scars on its side.
It pulls up, it drops anchor.
Winston Churchill comes across,comes up the gangplank.
You know, the band is playingGod Save the King, and Roosevelt
(35:41):
is standing there on the railingholding onto his son Elliot's
arm as Churchill walks up andthey shake hands.
I mean, this is just such amoment, it's one of my favorite
moments in all of the Rooseveltstory, because this is the
moment in which.
everything on.
If they
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (35:57):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (36:00):
then nothing would have worked in
World War II.
instead they formed thisremarkable bond.
You know, the specialrelationship as, as they called
it.
And they disagreed on a lot ofthings.
Now, Churchill was really hopingthat FDR would, if not declare
war on Germany, at least agreeto send more weapons and things.
But what Roosevelt really wantedwas a press release.
(36:20):
He wanted to use words asweapons against Hitler.
He wanted to show why are wedifferent?
Why do we have the moral upperground here?
And so the Atlantic charter isactually eight statements, uh,
and it really is, it's not atreaty or anything.
It's just really like a pressrelease where the United States
and England agree that therewill be no territorial gains,
(36:42):
that all people have a right toself determination, that trade
barriers should be lowered, thatthere should be economic
cooperation, there should be aworld free of fear and want, uh,
there should be freedom of theseas, and most importantly,
there should be disarmament.
it's this sort of framework foroutlining.
The world as it could be, and itbuilds somewhat on the for
(37:05):
freedom speech that he gaveearlier that year.
The most important thing wasthis idea about self
determination churchill thoughtthat this referred to those
countries that had beendominated and conquered by
Germany or Italy or Japan.
Um, Roosevelt thought it appliedto everybody, even the British
colonies.
And of course
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (37:23):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (37:24):
fight about this, this.
Became the foundation for whateventually was the United
Nations and the idea of theelimination of the empires of
Europe and the freedom of thesecountries for self
determination.
And in some cases that workedout well, in some cases it
didn't, you know, we, we knowthe history, some things are
(37:44):
still evolving,
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (37:45):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (37:46):
was important for Roosevelt that
they have this framework of whywe're going to fight to the
Americans and for the Britishand for the British Empire, why
we're fighting this war againstNazi Germany.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (37:58):
Mm hmm.
A monumental meeting for sure,and they didn't know them, but
what, just four months later,Japan bombs Pearl Harbor and
we're drawn fully into the war.
How did Lindbergh respond toPearl Harbor and our entry at
that point into World War II?
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (38:15):
Well, I'll answer that question a
second because there's apostscript to the Atlantic
Conference meeting, which
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (38:20):
Oh, please.
Yes.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (38:21):
the HMS.
of Wales was there.
And on the second day of theconference, they have this huge
religious service on the backdeck of HMS Prince of Wales.
The American sailors come over.
There's hundreds of them there.
They sing hymns.
Churchill and Roosevelt areseated.
All of their military leadersare behind them.
It's just very powerful.
(38:42):
Emotional moment, you know,onward Christian soldiers and
near my God to thee and allthese ideas of how Americans and
British share this sort ofstrong cultural tradition.
And then just a few days afterPearl Harbor, the HMS Prince of
Wales has sunk and almost all ofthe 800 sailors who were on that
ship during the Atlanticconference die.
(39:03):
so it was a huge blow toChurchill personally because it
was one of the Navy's mostimportant ships.
But it was also this emotionalblow that they had shared this
experience with these people.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07- (39:15):
Oh, horrendous.
Oh,
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (39:17):
So, yeah, so Pearl Harbor happens on
December 7th.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07 (39:21):
hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (39:22):
Uh, and, and there was actually a
Conference that the Americafirst had scheduled a big anti
Roosevelt meeting that was goingto happen.
after Pearl Harbor on December8th Lindbergh comes out with a
statement saying the UnitedStates has now been attacked by
force of arms We must defendourselves by force of arms.
a couple of digs in in RooseveltNo matter how we may have
(39:44):
opposed bad leadership in thepast.
We must all come together nowand defend America and of course
he tried to re enlist You uh,you know, he was very good
friends with a number of veryhigh ranking people and military
people in the Rooseveltadministration.
George Marshall was a fan ofhis.
Hap Arnold, who was the head ofthe U S army air force who had
gotten all the intelligence thathe had fed to the U S out before
(40:06):
the war.
Uh, but you know, the word wasout.
He
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (40:09):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_1 (40:10):
FDR had said to a group of senators,
I'm going to clip that youngman's wings.
none of the military serviceswere going to let him in.
none of the military, industrialcomplex.
Companies that he would go tobecause you would think they
would want to hire him.
They said like, no, we don't, wecan't touch you.
You know, we don't want our verylucrative armaments contracts
(40:31):
being yanked out for under us ifwe hire you.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (40:34):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (40:34):
who's the end up going to work for
Henry Ford?
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_0 (40:37):
Yeah, of course.
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (40:40):
this mile long manufacturing plant,
Willow Run, to build these B 24bombers.
Uh, and there was a lot ofproblems.
They, they had fallen behindschedule.
They were having a lot ofquality control problems.
And Ford hires Lindbergh to comein and help improve
manufacturing and improve thequality of the plane.
And he works there for severalyears.
(41:00):
And he really does bring A very,very high level of to this
challenge.
And he does help improve theplane.
It's never going to be a greatplane, but he does help improve
the plane.
He helps improve manufacturing.
But what's interesting is thattowards the end of the war, he
goes to the Pacific as a privatecontractor, essentially to help
the U S Marines.
(41:21):
Who's Fighter planes are havingtrouble with the Japanese zero
fighter planes.
Um, and he helps redesign theplanes essentially in the field,
which improves their range andimproves their fuel efficiency.
He helps them with their weaponsystems helps them tweak their
engines.
And so all of a sudden there'sthis tremendous Improvement in
(41:41):
the quality of these planes thatthe Marines were flying.
And then he flies 50 combatmissions as essentially as a
private citizen, withoutanybody's approval back East.
Right.
Because when you're in a wartimeand there's a guy there on the
runway and he's a great pilotand there's a plane sitting
there and you got guys gettingshot down, guess what?
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-2 (42:00):
Mm hmm.
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024_ (42:00):
your seat in the plane.
and so in many ways he sort ofredeems himself.
And then when Ike Eisenhowerbecomes president in the 1950s,
he, reinstates Lindbergh'sstatus as an officer in what's
now the U.
S.
Air Force and he ends upretiring as a lieutenant
general.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2_07-25 (42:21):
I see.
So, again, a terrific book,Paul.
I mean, I could talk all day toyou about this.
Really, I encourage ourlisteners to go out and get
Awakening the Spirit of America,FDR's War of Words with Charles
Lindbergh and the Battle to SaveDemocracy.
Paul Sparrow, what's next foryou?
A
paul-sparrow_2_07-25-2024 (42:38):
Well, I'm working on another book, of
course.
Um, I, right now though, I'msort of traveling around talking
about the book, doing podcasts,trying to get people aware.
I mean, you know, we live in afraught time.
We see divisions in this countrymany of which I think FDR's
message resonates with, his ideawas that ultimately, Americans
have to come together and do theright thing.
(42:59):
I think the issue around Ukraineand Russia right now is very
similar to the issue withEngland and Germany.
I think this misinformationcampaign that's happening
against America right now,people have to understand that
we share a set of core values.
Even though he took officeduring the worst of the
depression and faced the worldwar two, two of the greatest
crises in American history, FDRreally believed in the American
(43:23):
system.
And I think we have to look atthat and say, if he could
believe in the American systemin the darkest days of our
republic, then we have aresponsibility to do the same.
squadcaster-alan-lowe_2 (43:36):
perfect way to end our conversation,
Paul.
Really, thank you so very muchfor joining us, and I want to
thank everyone out there forlistening.
Please visit AmericanPOTUS.
org and consider supporting ourwork.
Thank you very much, and makesure you join us again next time
on American POTUS.
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