January 25, 2025 • 36 mins
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Episode Transcript
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alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_ (00:00):
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and Iso appreciate your joining us.
I'm excited today to welcomeback Dr.
Hal Wert.
Now, as I'm sure you remember,Hal, a professor emeritus of
history at the Kansas City ArtInstitute, joined us a while
back to discuss his terrificbook, Hoover vs.
Roosevelt, Two Presidents BattleOver Feeding Europe and Going to
War.
(00:22):
Now, we didn't have time backthen, so I asked Hal back.
I'm so glad he agreed to talkabout another of his works that
also features President Hoover.
This one titled Hoover, thefishing president, portrait of
the private man and his lifeoutdoors.
How?
Welcome back to American POTUS.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (00:40):
Well, thank you.
It's a privilege to be here,sir.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (00:42):
Uh, so enjoyed our last
conversation.
I've told you a lot of folkshave listened to that episode.
I'm sure they'll, they'll jointhem for this one.
Uh, before we get into it, uh,we were talking a bit before we,
we started recording here that Igrew up on a farm in Kentucky
and I would go fishing, uh, forcatfish.
I was in no way a greatfisherman Like Herbert Hoover
was where are you a fisherman?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (01:04):
Well, kind of.
I think when I was a boy, mybrother and I would go fishing
and we'd catch, and when, Ilived in Minnesota till I was
seven, so I would fish off thedock and get sunfish and perch,
and my mom would fix them forbreakfast, but occasionally we'd
fish when I was in high school,and there again, mostly catfish,
but no, I am no fisherman on thelevel of Herbert Hoover.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (01:26):
Yeah, I will say I'm off.
My wife just caught her firstfish ever.
We were in Savannah, Georgia onthe On the pier.
And this fellow had a fishhooked on his hook and let her
bring it in.
And she was very proud of thathouse.
So it's a, it was a first for,for Mrs.
Lowe.
Um, but I, uh, I am no way am apro at this, but I, I remember
many, many great hours on thefarm doing it.
And I so enjoyed learning moreabout Herbert Hoover and how
(01:49):
fishing played a role in hislife.
And Herbert Hoover, we've talkednow twice about Hoover.
You've written a couple ofbooks.
Uh, let me ask you thisquestion.
What, what led you to Hoover?
Why did you gravitate to thestudy of Herbert Hoover?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (02:01):
Well, I mean, my friends told me that
would probably be a waste oftime, I give it.
His reputation in thepresidency, but my thesis was on
voluntary food conservationprograms of the Truman
administration.
And I ran into Hoover there whenhe was going around the world,
garnering grain and commitmentsfor grain to help feed
(02:21):
Europeans.
This is before, uh, this is in1946 and 47.
And occasionally I'd run intothings that contradicted the
image I'd sort of been taught ofHoover.
That he was uptight, poorspeaker, high collar, sort of a
curmudgeon.
But even the working on mythesis didn't break my, my view
(02:42):
at that point.
But then I decided, okay, I'mgonna go back because of what I
learned about Hoover.
And see what he did in 1939, interms of voluntary food
conservation programs, or, well,actually in terms of programs
for the, for the Poles and forthe Lithuanians and for the
Hungarians.
(03:03):
And starting to do thatresearch, I kept running into
things that contradicted theimage, that made me interested
and made me want to look at it.
And what I thought was, there'sreally a tale of two hoovers.
the one Hoover is well known,the public Hoover, but the
private Hoover is not known atall.
And could I find enough materialto write a biography from the
(03:25):
inside out?
And that was my intention indoing so.
I never thought of it asrevisionist history.
I thought of it as completingthe record.
That we'd actually get the taleof the two Hoovers and then we
could decide better what kind ofa president and what kind of a
human being he was.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (03:45):
It's so important to go back and take
that look to look at those rawmaterials and to make those
analyses, based on looking backin time and using the archives,
you know, how I was an archivistfor many years and, uh, that's
where my, my heart still is.
So it's a much fuller picture weget of Herbert Hoover.
Uh, thanks to you.
Uh, looking at the young Hoover,you start with his youth in
(04:05):
Iowa.
By the age of 11, both of hisparents were dead.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (04:09):
They
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (04:09):
And he, he moved from Iowa out to
Oregon, lived with his uncle.
Uh, how did that love of theoutdoors help him during that
move?
And how did that move affecthis, his life?
His personality outlook.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (04:20):
before he went.
And of course in, you know,actually when he's growing up in
West Branch, that's sort of thefrontier.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (04:27):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (04:28):
it's still moving west, but it's
still very much frontier.
And he and his brother spent alot of time outdoors.
And I think that, you know, alot of kids do that, but I think
after his parents died and hewent to Oregon, it sort of
helped sustain him and keep himout of the way of his uncle.
I think too.
In the circumstances weredifferent.
(04:49):
I mean, he, he, his brotherwrote a poem, about the death of
their two parents that saidthat, you know, they were their
whole world had been shattered.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (04:58):
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1 (04:58):
course, they were divided up.
The children all went differentplaces.
And later in Oregon, whenthey're about 16 or 17, they are
reunited.
But so the family is totallybroken up.
Henry John Minthorn was stern,but I think that have largely
overestimated how stern he was.
(05:19):
I think Hoover later said that,things from childhood, later
don't necessarily mean so muchas you tend to get more
objectivity.
One of the things that made methink that.
is that while he worked Hooverhard and the other kids in that
neighborhood did too, they, wedid onions, they did all kinds
of things and long, hard days.
(05:39):
But, Henry John was an extremelyinteresting human being.
He served in the Union Army,even though he was a Quaker, he
did not, as some historians say,have combat duty.
He was in logistics in,Tennessee during most of the war
with the Iowa unit.
But he provided for them, well,I mean, in the late 1880s,
(06:01):
Hoover and the other two mentorchildren are getting a$5 a week
allowance.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (06:06):
hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:07):
he had some extra spending money,
and of course he was ambitiousand worked hard and.
know, he's the kind ofindividual I think that's
absolutely, really wants toprove himself.
Um, and he's highly energeticand he, from early age on, was a
little hustler, essentially.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (06:24):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:24):
He worked for the Oregon Land
Company and he got 20 a monthfor doing that when he was 17.
And he did all kinds of uniquethings in terms of advertising
and selling land.
Meeting people at the train,making sure they had a hotel,
making sure they got to tour thefarms that had been previously
set up.
So, you know, he's, that's thekind of track he's on,
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (06:46):
Yeah, this seems like a dynamo all the
time.
And part of that is he ends upgoing to Stanford
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:52):
he
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (06:52):
he meets his future wife, Lou
Henry.
They shared a love of theoutdoors.
How important do you think thatwas to that?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:58):
I think
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (06:58):
long marriage.
hal-wert_1_01-23-202 (07:00):
important.
She had grown up that way, too.
She was born in Waterloo, Iowa,by chance, and, and her father
was a banker in SouthernCalifornia, and she spent a lot
of time outdoors hunting andfishing and trapping.
and they did a lot of thattogether while they were in
Stanford.
Almost every summer from hissophomore year on, he worked for
the geological survey,surveying, the land in the
(07:22):
mountains between the Californiaand Nevada border, and he spent
one whole summer in Arkansas,uh, by himself, where he just
did his work and then foundplaces to stay at night.
with different families, andthat's, of course, a really
underdeveloped area and part ofthe world.
But yeah, I think that's veryimportant to the two of them.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (07:44):
Now you say his first 20 years in
engineering, mining engineering,he spent in the relentless
pursuit of money, really makinghis name around the world.
How did fishing play a role inthat in both the advancement of
that career and in finding somekind of relaxation for this
dynamic man out making thatname?
hal-wert_1_01-23-202 (08:05):
surprised, Alan, it didn't.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (08:07):
Ah, right.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (08:08):
Uh, and, and he may have fished in
South Africa, but no, I mean, inAustralia and China, he was
really busy, and working forBWIC and mooring.
But by the time he was 26 yearsold, he was a millionaire.
Uh, and then he just, just keptpiling it up.
And so in that period, no, Idon't think fishing in the
(08:29):
outdoors, is much of a factor.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (08:33):
Now, as he earns those riches, he
makes a name for himself, heenters the political world.
How would you define hispolitical philosophy as he
enters that new sphere ofoperations?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (08:43):
in a sense, I don't think he was
ever much of a politician, andthat's part of his problem.
He's a great desk man, but hedidn't like politics, and he
didn't like to do whatpoliticians do, and I think that
hurt him when he was in thepresidency during the
Depression.
But during World War I, as WorldWar I started, he got involved
(09:04):
with the Ambassador to GreatBritain in helping Americans
return, to the United Statesthat were trapped there by the
outbreak of the war.
And he really liked that, anddecided, okay, I've got enough
money, maybe I'll try somethingelse.
And that's when he got involvedin feeding the Belgians and
developed the Committee forBelgian Relief, which ended up
(09:26):
feeding nearly 10 millionBelgians and people in northern
France.
so then in the Wilsonadministration, he's offered a
war food administrator.
So it becomes a kind of foodczar, you know, everybody in
America hooverizing to
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (09:43):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (09:43):
money and that sort of thing.
So all of those years, there'sreally not much fishing going
on.
But when he comes home fromVersailles, depressed and
disappointed, he didn't approve.
He thought the Treaty ofVersailles was far too, harsh.
Um, and he shared that withseveral other people.
But that's when he picks up andstarts to go outdoors again and
(10:06):
also spend more time with hischildren.
In fact, from about 1914 to1929, he didn't see them that
much.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (10:13):
Mm hmm.
Well, what about Harding andCoolidge?
So after, after the Wilsonadministration, how did he
interact with those twopresidents?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (10:21):
I might say this, I was trained
mostly as a liberal democratichistorian and then moved away
from that.
of the reason I moved away fromthat is that It's not that
liberal historians hadn'twritten good histories and solid
work, but it's what they didn'tdo that was important.
And Harding and Coolidge andHoover were things they didn't
(10:42):
do.
Uh, and that's only been morerecently.
You know, uh, Amity Shales hasdone
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (10:48):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (10:49):
on Coolidge.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (10:50):
Yes.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (10:51):
good work on the Depression.
And of course, uh, now he'sbeing touted by her as one of
the great American presidents.
I just finished her biographyand really enjoyed it.
But I think there's a about,about Harding.
Harding was a very popularAmerican president.
Uh, and had he not died in thePalace Hotel in 1923, I'm
(11:11):
convinced his election waspretty well reassured.
All this, if he, if that hadhappened, all of the scandals,
that plagued his administrationwould have come out in a second
term.
But it's late 1923 and on, on,on the way to Alaska.
Hoover liked him very much andhe liked Hoover.
And they did the Alaska trip,the first American president to
(11:34):
visit Seward's Folly, Harding'sblood pressure when he got on
the ship was the 180.
Uh, and he was exhausted and heplayed bridge every day, all day
long, and Hoover hated doingthat.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (11:46):
Mm hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (11:48):
in the process of coming back, of
course, he, he has an attack inSeattle and, and, uh, then on to
San Francisco where he dies inthe Palace Hotel.
But, you know, this is August of1923, so there wasn't that much
left of his presidency.
But Hoover liked him very much.
Who he didn't like very much wasCoolidge.
(12:08):
It's not clear, you know, I,George Nash and I are good
friends.
George is a maniacal empiricist.
That's what I admire most abouthim.
I
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (12:19):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (12:21):
uh, you know, did Hoover ever
actually call Coolidge thatlittle man?
Yeah, but other people did andHoover probably did too, but I
like George.
George is looking for evidencethat that's
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (12:35):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (12:35):
case.
Um, but what I've seen is hedid.
And.
Coolidge, on the other hand,didn't like Hoover.
He called him the Wonder Boy.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (12:44):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-20 (12:44):
supposedly, when things hit his desk that
were difficult, he'd just say,Give it to the Wonder Boy.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (12:50):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (12:51):
the difference between Harding and
Coolidge and Hoover is verydifferent.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (12:56):
Yeah.
And Hoover, Secretary ofCommerce.
Is that right?
For?
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (12:59):
You know, when he took it over, it
was a very small department.
In fact, the, the CommerceSecretary that had preceded him
said basically all he did, hadto do was turn the lighthouse
lights off and on along thecoast.
And of course, Hoover's anempire builder.
And if you let Hoover in thedoor, he's going to build an
empire.
And that caused, I guess this,it may, this may be too strong,
(13:21):
but I think you could do a book.
administration that's more likethe book on Lincoln about a
cabinet being, a cabinet ofrivals.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (13:32):
Yeah.
Team Arrivals.
Doris Kearns Goodwin.
Yes.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (13:36):
liked that
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (13:37):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (13:38):
but Henry Wallace, of course, didn't
like him and Hoover took oversections and Harding would
approve of it if other people'sturf.
And so there's a kind of turfwar that's going on and Hoover
takes the Department of Congressand really builds it into an
incredibly first rate kind ofdepartment., he's into
standardizing, standardizinglumber, uh, deciding about
(14:00):
radio.
Radio's the new thing.
He's the one that decides thatthe stations east of the
Mississippi will keep their WHOsor whatever.
And west of the Mississippi willbe Ks, KRNT or whatever.
There's a few early stationslike WHO in Des Moines that's on
the other side of theMississippi.
And they didn't change that, butthat's the kind of thing he's
(14:21):
into.
he was too as a mining engineer.
He had a good eye for that sortof thing.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (14:27):
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (14:27):
he's a workaholic.
also was really into homeeconomics.
He was into all the newsciences.
He was into time management.
Uh, And he also liked very muchto, on new issues to get
together and have conferences inWashington, where he invited the
best and the brightest, but thething people didn't like about
it is for Hoover, it's notalways that he listened to
(14:50):
everybody that was there, asmuch as he kind of made his
positions known and hoped thatpeople would come to support
him.
They're
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (14:58):
hmm.
I see.
Well, I will remind ourlisteners.
We a while back spoke to AmityShlaes on on American POTUS
about Coolidge and soon I'mspeaking with Ryan Walters about
his book on President Harding.
So we're making sure both ofthose presidents are fully
represented on here.
Um, Hoover makes the big move in28 and runs for the presidency
(15:21):
successfully.
How would you characterize thatcampaign and did fishing play a
role in it?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (15:26):
Well, phishing had begun to play a
role.
Hoover's biggest problem is hedoes not know how to manage his
public persona.
And he never figures out a wayto do that because he really
guards his privacy.
and you know, he won't hold upfish he hasn't caught.
I've got numerous photographs ofhim pretending like he's holding
the fish, but the other personis in fact holding it.
(15:47):
He won't kiss babies, he won'tdress up like Calvin Cooley's
like doing, cowboy outfits sortof thing to please the press.
Um, but, that he was going to bepresident.
There's almost a kind ofinevitability there.
During the commission forBelgium relief in the 1916,
1917, there's already a Hooverfor president movement going on
(16:11):
and particularly amongst peoplethat worked in the CRB and then
in 1920, his name is put forwardin several primaries.
In 1920, he actually won theMichigan primary as a Democrat,
and he came in fourth on thesame primary as a Republican,
(16:31):
and it's interesting to thinkhow his life might have been
different if he would have runfor president in 1920 because
it's a Republican year.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (16:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (16:41):
would have won, but of course that
didn't happen.
I think because of hisQuakerism, he was always
embarrassed about talking abouthis own ambitions.
And so he let other people,encouraged other people to carry
his flag.
Uh, which they were more thanwilling to do.
So the 1928 campaign, of course,it's a big victory, and I think,
(17:05):
you know, there's some otherthings going on, too.
I think Hoover was the firstpresident born west of the
Mississippi, and he's a Stanfordgraduate, and I think he looked
at his solid victory in 1928.
In fact, you know, um, it's alandslide.
That was a victory for the Westand for a victory for the new
(17:26):
technocratic rising middle classand a victory for Stanford The
people in this cabinet aremostly from the West and many
from Stanford and I think that'sthe way they think about it That
you know that it's a new day forthe rising middle class.
I think he wanted to engineerKind of be the transformational
(17:49):
president from the older epochto the new
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (17:54):
I see.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (17:54):
not very successful at doing that,
but I think that's what he hasin mind.
He's into individualism.
He believes in volunteerism.
And of course, that means duringthe Depression, he's loathe to
demand that the Congressundertake certain things that
might have been more helpful.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (18:11):
So I know he's very private, fairly
emotionalist in his publicutterances.
So you say his associates helpedwith the campaign.
Did the public buy into thevision being put forth by those
associates or did they like thetechnocratic aura being put
forth?
I would see successful
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (18:28):
be well, he had, he had a
reputation.
I mean, nobody probably had agreater reputation practically
coming into the presidency thanherbert Hoover did in 1927.
He was the savior of Belgium.
Um, he was the a RA, theAmerican Relief Administration
that had provided aid even tothe Sylvia Union.
His opposition used to say hewas adamantly opposed to
(18:49):
communism, but he saved it.
Because of feeding the Russiansin 1920 and 1921.
And then he had the, you know,the German children's feeding
program.
Uh, one night on a trip toEurope, I was with a group of,
uh, German diplomats.
And two of them came up to meand said we've seen what your
work is doing on Hoover, and,uh, we want you to know that
(19:13):
when we were children, we wouldnot have survived the Hoover
Spice Up.
then, of course, 1927, Coolidgegives him the Mississippi Flood,
which is like Katrina.
It's one of the great disastersof American flood history, and
he handles it well.
So part of it is he's in thenewspaper every day and he's
(19:34):
successful at it.
So I think what they see there,I think is competence and
ability.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (19:40):
I see So he's elected president in
a landslide and his love ofoutdoors leads him while he's in
the white house to establishCamp rapidan am I saying that
correctly?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (19:50):
Yeah.
I mean, after he came back in1919, he goes to Florida for the
first time and starts to fishand he began to fish more in the
West, his favorite McKinseyriver and Oregon and other
places during the presidency.
It's cut back considerably.
But he continues to do it, andthen he did build Camp Rapidan,
he was looking for a place toand he went to what would become
(20:13):
Camp David and took a look atit, and decided no, and so he
put his people out fromWashington looking at a place,
and typically Hoover had a longlist of specifics.
It had to be about 2, 200 feet,because mosquitoes couldn't get
above that, uh, he hatedmosquitoes with a dedicated
passion.
And partially because of histime in China.
(20:35):
And, so anyway, they found thisbeautiful spot and then he and
Lou Henry went ahead and hiredan architect and designed it.
Have you been there?
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (20:44):
I have not is is in maryland
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (20:46):
It's in Virginia.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-202 (20:47):
Virginia.
Oh, okay.
Ah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (20:50):
it is amazing.
Really beautiful.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (20:53):
I'll need to go.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (20:54):
camp.
Uh, one of my friends who was aum, aide to con, uh, Arkansas.
Congressman, used to go up thereto fish.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (21:02):
Well, I'll have to do a remote
American POTUS from there.
I think that's, that's on theplans now, how we'll have to do
that.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_ (21:07):
American
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (21:08):
I'll, yeah, I'll have to go and tape
from that.
Sounds, sounds beautiful.
It
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (21:17):
right.
The buildings had to be right.
So many feet apart, that sort ofthing.
He never thought of his aid asbeing charity.
He thought of it as a scientificresponse, an empirical response
to particular disasters.
Like, you know, he had lists offoods, like, for Europeans, he
wouldn't export beans, becausethey took too much fuel to cook.
(21:39):
And he has a long list of thingslike that.
So in one sense, he's maniacalabout it, but you'll see if you
go to Rapidan, it's a beautifulcamp and he spent lots of time
there.
Uh, Roosevelt used to do greatimpressions, at dinner parties
of Hoover driving, to Rapidan,running everyone off the road.
Uh, Franklin Roosevelt wouldsay, and that the people went
(22:03):
ahead of him and shut thestreams down on each side of the
bridge, uh, and put fish.
in there for him to catch andthe fish had pet names.
And when he'd start to do thosemocking routines on other
people, Eleanor would alwayssay, now, Franklin, was the
(22:24):
green light.
And he would go ahead and dothat.
And people said they wereabsolutely hilarious.
He said then that they broughtout a big, comfortable chair.
And Hoover would sit in thechair and catch the pet fish.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1 (22:40):
really humanizes them to hear about FDR
doing that kind of thing.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (22:45):
when, you know, Hoover could, Hoover
could get some slaps back too.
One
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (22:49):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (22:52):
was that, uh, Roosevelt was like a
chameleon on plaid.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (23:00):
They are, uh, that rivalry that we
spoke about last time is sointeresting and so important.
My next question is, is itreally about that?
How in that post defeat whereHoover is in these constant
battles with FDR, the, thedesire at some point trying to
get back to the White House howdid fishing play a part of that?
Since we're talking about him asa fishing president.
(23:21):
Yeah, mm hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (23:24):
he tried to use fishing and to get
out and to be with friends andto go to the Madison river in
Yellowstone and other places,but it, I don't think it would
really do it.
I mean.
For Hoover, it's a real shock.
He's, he has known nothing butoutrageous success.
And bang, he can't win the 32election, and it takes him a few
(23:45):
years to understand that thedepression is the albatross
around his neck, and forwhatever reasons, right or
wrong, he owns it.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (23:55):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (23:55):
And that's really hard for him.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (23:57):
Was he able to relax doing fishing?
No, no, okay
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (24:01):
Hoover has a hard time relaxing period.
You know, he's always has hishands in his pocket, jingling
change.
You know, he's very gerbil likeI think suffer from the same
thing.
So anyway, but yeah, I thinkthat was really hard for him at
first.
And, uh, there's that good storythat, About 1933 or 4, Hoover
(24:22):
and his big Buick is drivingdown the parkway in California
at 60 miles an hour and thehighway patrolman pulls him
home.
about 2 o'clock in the morning.
He's on his way back toStanford.
They've been up camping inOregon and it's too hot.
And Stanford is always cool, uh,Palo Alto.
Uh, and the patrolman puts hisfoot on the running board and
(24:43):
looks at the license.
And says, are you that guy?
And Hoover looks at him andsaid, yeah, well, I, yeah, yeah,
I guess I am that guy.
Then the patrolman takes hisfoot off, hams him back the
license and says, does it makeyou feel better to drive down
the California parkway at 60miles an hour at two o'clock in
the morning?
And Hoover hesitated for aminute and said, yeah, I think
(25:05):
it does.
Then the patrolman saluted himand said, drive on brother.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1 (25:11):
That's the kind of patrolman you want
to run into I like that
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (25:14):
That's true.
So yeah, then fishing picks up.
And at first.
You know, reman did not go well.
I mean, if the reman we justhad, you could say the tensions
were palpable.
They certainly were betweenHoover and Roosevelt.
And Hoover spent most of theinter eum like most presidents
do, trying to coax the presidentelect to adopt their policies.
(25:38):
And of course, Rooseveltwouldn't do that.
So in some ways, instead of evenlistening to some
recommendations that might have.
been good for him to listen to.
He did not.
and the ride to the, and thechangeover ceremony was a
difficult one.
And then Hoover was upset andnobody's quite figured out why,
(25:58):
but when he got out of thetrain, to go to New York, there
was no secret service for him.
He blamed Roosevelt.
Roosevelt denied it.
I've spent a good deal of timetrying to figure out who did
what to whom, but it's not clear
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (26:15):
Now this one last thing on his Being
unable to relax, I noticed inpretty much every photo you
included of Hoover fishing, hehas on a coat and tie.
Was
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (26:26):
But.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (26:26):
that normal or is that just Hoover?
Okay.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (26:28):
seems so strange now, but that's
normal.
If you look at Al Smith, it'sthe same thing.
Uh, and he continued to do that.
I have a few pictures.
Uh, in the, uh, maybe about 19,uh, 21, 22 in commerce, where he
actually has an open collar on.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (26:49):
Oh.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (26:49):
never, ever run into that.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1 (26:51):
Right.
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (26:53):
think, uh, do you have the hard back or
the paperback copy
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (26:56):
I have the paperback.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (26:57):
Good, because I love the cover,
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (26:59):
Yeah.
Oh, it's terrific.
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (27:01):
and that I found that in the Siski
museum in, uh, Eureka,California.
But I think it's one of the bestpictures of Hoover.
I've worked hard to try to findpictures of him privately
relaxing because privately hedrank a martini and a half,
probably two every afternoon.
Uh, ate macadamia nuts fromHawaii that he loved and what he
called yellow cheddar cheese,wrapped cheese and crackers.
(27:24):
And so, you know, he was then, Imean, there was always the
cocktail hour dinner was alwaysat eight, that sort of thing.
He ate most of the fish hecaught.
He loved it.
I mean, I don't think there'svery many human beings that ate
more fish than Hoover did.
but he also was a raconteur whocould tell jokes and none of
that is available to the public.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (27:44):
Mm hmm.
I'll think of it.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (27:46):
I can't remember in which book,
but that Peggy Newton had madethe comment that one of the
people she knew, uh, had thatsame problem back and forth.
Uh, and I made the comment that,uh, that Peggy Noonan had never
known Herbert Hoover.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (28:03):
Yeah.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_ (28:05):
Dorsona.
Uh, and so that continues and,you know, he's not a great
speaker.
But he always made friends thatwere loyal to absolutely loyal
and he was good about puttingpeople around him who were
competent.
Um, the rules were this, theopen discussions could take
place, but once they had decidedon something.
(28:27):
You would not deviate.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (28:28):
Hmm.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (28:30):
But he was open to all kinds of
suggestions in the process.
But then, if you deviated, youwere excommunicated.
alan-lowe_1_01-23- (28:37):
Interesting.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (28:38):
Uh, he could be harsh, and he could
be tough.
I said, I think in Hoover,versus Roosevelt, that both he
and Roosevelt could be SOBs onoccasion, and really play
hardball.
But generally not.
Hoover didn't use bad languagevery often, but when he did, he
had not forgotten anything helearned in Australia.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (28:57):
Well, I know one president who could
be a hardball who would give himhell is President Truman and he,
he brought Hoover back from thepolitical wilderness.
What brought them together?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (29:06):
Uh, you know, I think, uh, when I
was working on voluntary foodconservations of the Truman
administration, I got tointerview Truman, uh, and have
him sign pictures for me.
And what I was working on wastoo low level for him and I
didn't want to waste the hour.
So all I said to him, it was onCharles Luckman and his role as
(29:28):
head of the citizen foodcommittee.
And he knew Luckman and who wasfrom Kansas city and, uh VIP in
the soap world.
But it wasn't going to go verywell, so I said, well, tell me
about your relationship withStrom Thurmond, and I never had
to say another word.
But I think, I think Truman verymuch that Hoover had been
(29:49):
mistreated, uh, and they're bothMidwestern boys from a poor
background.
Uh, you know, I don't think, Idon't think it's fair, really.
I shouldn't say that.
I, Truman, a little bit, I mean,it was a struggling farm family.
And Hoover, the Quaker familiesthat Hoover lived in were never
really poor.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (30:07):
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (30:08):
I mean, you know, they're
certainly not upper, uppermiddle class affluent, but, I
mean, they're self sufficient.
And the whole clan, basically,once they're in Iowa, you know,
aunts, uncles, they all end upin Oregon.
So he has an extended familynetwork.
Uh, but yeah, I think that'swhat Truman thought, and Truman
thought he should come back, andthat, uh, that, you know, FDR,
(30:31):
we're doing this now, so thatit's the, the Gulf of America
now.
Um, but that's not unusual, thatFDR took away the, the name of
the Hoover Dam and called it,you know, FDR.
Uh, after he was elected andTruman brought it back to
Hoover.
And so he put Hoover to workbecause he admired what he had
(30:52):
done in World War I and with hisrelief operations and gave him
the opportunity to travel aroundthe world, rounding up grain and
food supplies for Europe, whichhe did.
And so they became, you know, anodd couple, but close.
Truman amazingly, too, wouldsometimes, you know, have you
been to, uh, Truman's summerhouse in Key West?
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (31:13):
I sadly know.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (31:14):
it's really good.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (31:16):
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (31:16):
It's really nice, but sometimes he
and Bess would drive all the wayup through the Keys together.
And at one point, they stoppedat the Key Largo Anglos to see
Hoover and, and Truman justwalked into the, you know,
walked into the Key Largo Anglosclub and said he wanted to see
Hoover and people at the bar andthey'd say, what's a Democrat
(31:38):
doing in this Republican club?
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (31:40):
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (31:40):
And, and, but he left Bess in the
car.
so they go get Hoover and Hooversays, I got to get my shoes, I
got to get my shoes.
And then nobody knows what theysaid, but they talked for about
an hour and a half.
Truman would call on him.
I think they, they had a verywarm relationship.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (31:57):
The same wasn't true necessarily
with, uh, Eisenhower.
Is that right?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (32:01):
I'll tell you what Hoover, Hoover was
a taft man and what Hoover hadgreat hopes for is that when the
Republicans back came back topower, they'd undo the new deal
and Eisenhower has no intentionof doing that.
And in fact, Nixon expanded itto some degree.
Uh, so.
That's, I think, thedisappointment.
(32:22):
I don't think there was anynecessary hostility there.
And they did do a fishing triptogether, and I think I included
a picture or
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (32:30):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (32:30):
that.
But, you know, it's not a warmrelationship.
In 1958, He did ask Hoover torepresent the United States, um,
at the World's Fair in Brusselson the 4th of July and loaned
him, uh, Air Force One,essentially the Columbine, to go
do that, and Hoover was gratefulfor that.
(32:51):
But no, he's a Taft man.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (32:54):
Well, Hal, I'll tell you, I, I so
enjoyed learning more aboutHerbert Hoover thanks to you.
What are you working on rightnow?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (33:01):
Well, that's interesting.
I think, I can't do a book inless than five or six years.
I know that's
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (33:07):
Not understood.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (33:09):
so I think, uh, I don't know.
I, there's several things I'dlike to do.
I think when I'm percolating andthinking about new things, I
tend to write three or fourarticles.
And I've been playing aroundwith the Stanford and the Hoover
Institution on the relationshipbetween Mark Sullivan and
Hoover.
And it's a deep relationship.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (33:31):
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (33:31):
They spent a tremendous amount of
time together.
They ate, oftentimes theSullivans would eat at the White
House two and three nights aweek.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (33:39):
Hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (33:39):
they'd fish together and they'd spend
hours at night trying to figureout what they could do about the
Great Depression.
Nobody's ever paid muchattention to that.
You know that the six volumesthat Mark did, Our Times, he was
going to do two more thatincluded the Hoover
administration, but he wasgetting older and there are a
(34:00):
lot of notes and a lot ofthings, but never in kind of any
manuscript
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (34:04):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (34:06):
But when Dan Rather did book,
redoing of the six volumes thatMark Sullivan had written, he
There's almost nothing in thereabout Hoover.
And so you can learn a lot aboutMark Solomon and know that, that
he and who, that he and Hooverhad a deeper personal
relationship.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (34:23):
Yeah.
Well, let's, I look,
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (34:25):
about exploring that.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (34:27):
I look forward to that.
You know, we want you back onAmerican POTUS whenever we can
have you here, Hal.
Thank you so much for joining usagain.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (34:33):
well, Alan, it's wonderful to talk to
you.
It's so much fun.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (34:37):
And I now have two, at least two
road trips I have to plan.
So
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (34:40):
do.
Yeah, I do.
I think you'll, you, I think inboth of them, uh, you know, Key
West is fine too, because youknow, you're going to get the
Hemingway house and you're goingto get the Tennessee Williams
house too.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (34:52):
yeah, there you go.
There you go.
Well, thank you so much.
And I want to, I want to thankeveryone for joining us and for
your support of American POTUS.
You know, we're committed tobringing you amazing content
like today's conversation,fascinating guests, all to
advance our understanding of thepresidents and the presidency.
in a civil and nonpartisan way.
So I appreciate everyonelistening.
(35:12):
I encourage you also to checkout American FLOTUS, a podcast
that American POTUS is producingin partnership with the First
Ladies Association for Researchand Education, or FLARE.
You can find American FLOTUS atAmericanPOTUS.
org, FLARE net.
org, or on your favorite podcastplatform.
So thanks so much for joiningus, and I'll see you next time
(35:34):
on American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe, and Iso appreciate your joining us.
I'm excited today to welcomeback Dr.
Hal Wert.
Now, as I'm sure you remember,Hal, a professor emeritus of
history at the Kansas City ArtInstitute, joined us a while
back to discuss his terrificbook, Hoover vs.
Roosevelt, Two Presidents BattleOver Feeding Europe and Going to
War.
(00:22):
Now, we didn't have time backthen, so I asked Hal back.
I'm so glad he agreed to talkabout another of his works that
also features President Hoover.
This one titled Hoover, thefishing president, portrait of
the private man and his lifeoutdoors.
How?
Welcome back to American POTUS.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (00:40):
Well, thank you.
It's a privilege to be here,sir.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (00:42):
Uh, so enjoyed our last
conversation.
I've told you a lot of folkshave listened to that episode.
I'm sure they'll, they'll jointhem for this one.
Uh, before we get into it, uh,we were talking a bit before we,
we started recording here that Igrew up on a farm in Kentucky
and I would go fishing, uh, forcatfish.
I was in no way a greatfisherman Like Herbert Hoover
was where are you a fisherman?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (01:04):
Well, kind of.
I think when I was a boy, mybrother and I would go fishing
and we'd catch, and when, Ilived in Minnesota till I was
seven, so I would fish off thedock and get sunfish and perch,
and my mom would fix them forbreakfast, but occasionally we'd
fish when I was in high school,and there again, mostly catfish,
but no, I am no fisherman on thelevel of Herbert Hoover.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (01:26):
Yeah, I will say I'm off.
My wife just caught her firstfish ever.
We were in Savannah, Georgia onthe On the pier.
And this fellow had a fishhooked on his hook and let her
bring it in.
And she was very proud of thathouse.
So it's a, it was a first for,for Mrs.
Lowe.
Um, but I, uh, I am no way am apro at this, but I, I remember
many, many great hours on thefarm doing it.
And I so enjoyed learning moreabout Herbert Hoover and how
(01:49):
fishing played a role in hislife.
And Herbert Hoover, we've talkednow twice about Hoover.
You've written a couple ofbooks.
Uh, let me ask you thisquestion.
What, what led you to Hoover?
Why did you gravitate to thestudy of Herbert Hoover?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (02:01):
Well, I mean, my friends told me that
would probably be a waste oftime, I give it.
His reputation in thepresidency, but my thesis was on
voluntary food conservationprograms of the Truman
administration.
And I ran into Hoover there whenhe was going around the world,
garnering grain and commitmentsfor grain to help feed
(02:21):
Europeans.
This is before, uh, this is in1946 and 47.
And occasionally I'd run intothings that contradicted the
image I'd sort of been taught ofHoover.
That he was uptight, poorspeaker, high collar, sort of a
curmudgeon.
But even the working on mythesis didn't break my, my view
(02:42):
at that point.
But then I decided, okay, I'mgonna go back because of what I
learned about Hoover.
And see what he did in 1939, interms of voluntary food
conservation programs, or, well,actually in terms of programs
for the, for the Poles and forthe Lithuanians and for the
Hungarians.
(03:03):
And starting to do thatresearch, I kept running into
things that contradicted theimage, that made me interested
and made me want to look at it.
And what I thought was, there'sreally a tale of two hoovers.
the one Hoover is well known,the public Hoover, but the
private Hoover is not known atall.
And could I find enough materialto write a biography from the
(03:25):
inside out?
And that was my intention indoing so.
I never thought of it asrevisionist history.
I thought of it as completingthe record.
That we'd actually get the taleof the two Hoovers and then we
could decide better what kind ofa president and what kind of a
human being he was.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (03:45):
It's so important to go back and take
that look to look at those rawmaterials and to make those
analyses, based on looking backin time and using the archives,
you know, how I was an archivistfor many years and, uh, that's
where my, my heart still is.
So it's a much fuller picture weget of Herbert Hoover.
Uh, thanks to you.
Uh, looking at the young Hoover,you start with his youth in
(04:05):
Iowa.
By the age of 11, both of hisparents were dead.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (04:09):
They
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (04:09):
And he, he moved from Iowa out to
Oregon, lived with his uncle.
Uh, how did that love of theoutdoors help him during that
move?
And how did that move affecthis, his life?
His personality outlook.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (04:20):
before he went.
And of course in, you know,actually when he's growing up in
West Branch, that's sort of thefrontier.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (04:27):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (04:28):
it's still moving west, but it's
still very much frontier.
And he and his brother spent alot of time outdoors.
And I think that, you know, alot of kids do that, but I think
after his parents died and hewent to Oregon, it sort of
helped sustain him and keep himout of the way of his uncle.
I think too.
In the circumstances weredifferent.
(04:49):
I mean, he, he, his brotherwrote a poem, about the death of
their two parents that saidthat, you know, they were their
whole world had been shattered.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (04:58):
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1 (04:58):
course, they were divided up.
The children all went differentplaces.
And later in Oregon, whenthey're about 16 or 17, they are
reunited.
But so the family is totallybroken up.
Henry John Minthorn was stern,but I think that have largely
overestimated how stern he was.
(05:19):
I think Hoover later said that,things from childhood, later
don't necessarily mean so muchas you tend to get more
objectivity.
One of the things that made methink that.
is that while he worked Hooverhard and the other kids in that
neighborhood did too, they, wedid onions, they did all kinds
of things and long, hard days.
(05:39):
But, Henry John was an extremelyinteresting human being.
He served in the Union Army,even though he was a Quaker, he
did not, as some historians say,have combat duty.
He was in logistics in,Tennessee during most of the war
with the Iowa unit.
But he provided for them, well,I mean, in the late 1880s,
(06:01):
Hoover and the other two mentorchildren are getting a$5 a week
allowance.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (06:06):
hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:07):
he had some extra spending money,
and of course he was ambitiousand worked hard and.
know, he's the kind ofindividual I think that's
absolutely, really wants toprove himself.
Um, and he's highly energeticand he, from early age on, was a
little hustler, essentially.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (06:24):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:24):
He worked for the Oregon Land
Company and he got 20 a monthfor doing that when he was 17.
And he did all kinds of uniquethings in terms of advertising
and selling land.
Meeting people at the train,making sure they had a hotel,
making sure they got to tour thefarms that had been previously
set up.
So, you know, he's, that's thekind of track he's on,
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (06:46):
Yeah, this seems like a dynamo all the
time.
And part of that is he ends upgoing to Stanford
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:52):
he
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (06:52):
he meets his future wife, Lou
Henry.
They shared a love of theoutdoors.
How important do you think thatwas to that?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (06:58):
I think
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (06:58):
long marriage.
hal-wert_1_01-23-202 (07:00):
important.
She had grown up that way, too.
She was born in Waterloo, Iowa,by chance, and, and her father
was a banker in SouthernCalifornia, and she spent a lot
of time outdoors hunting andfishing and trapping.
and they did a lot of thattogether while they were in
Stanford.
Almost every summer from hissophomore year on, he worked for
the geological survey,surveying, the land in the
(07:22):
mountains between the Californiaand Nevada border, and he spent
one whole summer in Arkansas,uh, by himself, where he just
did his work and then foundplaces to stay at night.
with different families, andthat's, of course, a really
underdeveloped area and part ofthe world.
But yeah, I think that's veryimportant to the two of them.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (07:44):
Now you say his first 20 years in
engineering, mining engineering,he spent in the relentless
pursuit of money, really makinghis name around the world.
How did fishing play a role inthat in both the advancement of
that career and in finding somekind of relaxation for this
dynamic man out making thatname?
hal-wert_1_01-23-202 (08:05):
surprised, Alan, it didn't.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (08:07):
Ah, right.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (08:08):
Uh, and, and he may have fished in
South Africa, but no, I mean, inAustralia and China, he was
really busy, and working forBWIC and mooring.
But by the time he was 26 yearsold, he was a millionaire.
Uh, and then he just, just keptpiling it up.
And so in that period, no, Idon't think fishing in the
(08:29):
outdoors, is much of a factor.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (08:33):
Now, as he earns those riches, he
makes a name for himself, heenters the political world.
How would you define hispolitical philosophy as he
enters that new sphere ofoperations?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (08:43):
in a sense, I don't think he was
ever much of a politician, andthat's part of his problem.
He's a great desk man, but hedidn't like politics, and he
didn't like to do whatpoliticians do, and I think that
hurt him when he was in thepresidency during the
Depression.
But during World War I, as WorldWar I started, he got involved
(09:04):
with the Ambassador to GreatBritain in helping Americans
return, to the United Statesthat were trapped there by the
outbreak of the war.
And he really liked that, anddecided, okay, I've got enough
money, maybe I'll try somethingelse.
And that's when he got involvedin feeding the Belgians and
developed the Committee forBelgian Relief, which ended up
(09:26):
feeding nearly 10 millionBelgians and people in northern
France.
so then in the Wilsonadministration, he's offered a
war food administrator.
So it becomes a kind of foodczar, you know, everybody in
America hooverizing to
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (09:43):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (09:43):
money and that sort of thing.
So all of those years, there'sreally not much fishing going
on.
But when he comes home fromVersailles, depressed and
disappointed, he didn't approve.
He thought the Treaty ofVersailles was far too, harsh.
Um, and he shared that withseveral other people.
But that's when he picks up andstarts to go outdoors again and
(10:06):
also spend more time with hischildren.
In fact, from about 1914 to1929, he didn't see them that
much.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (10:13):
Mm hmm.
Well, what about Harding andCoolidge?
So after, after the Wilsonadministration, how did he
interact with those twopresidents?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (10:21):
I might say this, I was trained
mostly as a liberal democratichistorian and then moved away
from that.
of the reason I moved away fromthat is that It's not that
liberal historians hadn'twritten good histories and solid
work, but it's what they didn'tdo that was important.
And Harding and Coolidge andHoover were things they didn't
(10:42):
do.
Uh, and that's only been morerecently.
You know, uh, Amity Shales hasdone
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (10:48):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (10:49):
on Coolidge.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (10:50):
Yes.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (10:51):
good work on the Depression.
And of course, uh, now he'sbeing touted by her as one of
the great American presidents.
I just finished her biographyand really enjoyed it.
But I think there's a about,about Harding.
Harding was a very popularAmerican president.
Uh, and had he not died in thePalace Hotel in 1923, I'm
(11:11):
convinced his election waspretty well reassured.
All this, if he, if that hadhappened, all of the scandals,
that plagued his administrationwould have come out in a second
term.
But it's late 1923 and on, on,on the way to Alaska.
Hoover liked him very much andhe liked Hoover.
And they did the Alaska trip,the first American president to
(11:34):
visit Seward's Folly, Harding'sblood pressure when he got on
the ship was the 180.
Uh, and he was exhausted and heplayed bridge every day, all day
long, and Hoover hated doingthat.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (11:46):
Mm hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (11:48):
in the process of coming back, of
course, he, he has an attack inSeattle and, and, uh, then on to
San Francisco where he dies inthe Palace Hotel.
But, you know, this is August of1923, so there wasn't that much
left of his presidency.
But Hoover liked him very much.
Who he didn't like very much wasCoolidge.
(12:08):
It's not clear, you know, I,George Nash and I are good
friends.
George is a maniacal empiricist.
That's what I admire most abouthim.
I
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (12:19):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (12:21):
uh, you know, did Hoover ever
actually call Coolidge thatlittle man?
Yeah, but other people did andHoover probably did too, but I
like George.
George is looking for evidencethat that's
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (12:35):
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (12:35):
case.
Um, but what I've seen is hedid.
And.
Coolidge, on the other hand,didn't like Hoover.
He called him the Wonder Boy.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (12:44):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-20 (12:44):
supposedly, when things hit his desk that
were difficult, he'd just say,Give it to the Wonder Boy.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (12:50):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (12:51):
the difference between Harding and
Coolidge and Hoover is verydifferent.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (12:56):
Yeah.
And Hoover, Secretary ofCommerce.
Is that right?
For?
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (12:59):
You know, when he took it over, it
was a very small department.
In fact, the, the CommerceSecretary that had preceded him
said basically all he did, hadto do was turn the lighthouse
lights off and on along thecoast.
And of course, Hoover's anempire builder.
And if you let Hoover in thedoor, he's going to build an
empire.
And that caused, I guess this,it may, this may be too strong,
(13:21):
but I think you could do a book.
administration that's more likethe book on Lincoln about a
cabinet being, a cabinet ofrivals.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (13:32):
Yeah.
Team Arrivals.
Doris Kearns Goodwin.
Yes.
Mm hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (13:36):
liked that
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (13:37):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (13:38):
but Henry Wallace, of course, didn't
like him and Hoover took oversections and Harding would
approve of it if other people'sturf.
And so there's a kind of turfwar that's going on and Hoover
takes the Department of Congressand really builds it into an
incredibly first rate kind ofdepartment., he's into
standardizing, standardizinglumber, uh, deciding about
(14:00):
radio.
Radio's the new thing.
He's the one that decides thatthe stations east of the
Mississippi will keep their WHOsor whatever.
And west of the Mississippi willbe Ks, KRNT or whatever.
There's a few early stationslike WHO in Des Moines that's on
the other side of theMississippi.
And they didn't change that, butthat's the kind of thing he's
(14:21):
into.
he was too as a mining engineer.
He had a good eye for that sortof thing.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (14:27):
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (14:27):
he's a workaholic.
also was really into homeeconomics.
He was into all the newsciences.
He was into time management.
Uh, And he also liked very muchto, on new issues to get
together and have conferences inWashington, where he invited the
best and the brightest, but thething people didn't like about
it is for Hoover, it's notalways that he listened to
(14:50):
everybody that was there, asmuch as he kind of made his
positions known and hoped thatpeople would come to support
him.
They're
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (14:58):
hmm.
I see.
Well, I will remind ourlisteners.
We a while back spoke to AmityShlaes on on American POTUS
about Coolidge and soon I'mspeaking with Ryan Walters about
his book on President Harding.
So we're making sure both ofthose presidents are fully
represented on here.
Um, Hoover makes the big move in28 and runs for the presidency
(15:21):
successfully.
How would you characterize thatcampaign and did fishing play a
role in it?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (15:26):
Well, phishing had begun to play a
role.
Hoover's biggest problem is hedoes not know how to manage his
public persona.
And he never figures out a wayto do that because he really
guards his privacy.
and you know, he won't hold upfish he hasn't caught.
I've got numerous photographs ofhim pretending like he's holding
the fish, but the other personis in fact holding it.
(15:47):
He won't kiss babies, he won'tdress up like Calvin Cooley's
like doing, cowboy outfits sortof thing to please the press.
Um, but, that he was going to bepresident.
There's almost a kind ofinevitability there.
During the commission forBelgium relief in the 1916,
1917, there's already a Hooverfor president movement going on
(16:11):
and particularly amongst peoplethat worked in the CRB and then
in 1920, his name is put forwardin several primaries.
In 1920, he actually won theMichigan primary as a Democrat,
and he came in fourth on thesame primary as a Republican,
(16:31):
and it's interesting to thinkhow his life might have been
different if he would have runfor president in 1920 because
it's a Republican year.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (16:41):
Yeah, absolutely.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (16:41):
would have won, but of course that
didn't happen.
I think because of hisQuakerism, he was always
embarrassed about talking abouthis own ambitions.
And so he let other people,encouraged other people to carry
his flag.
Uh, which they were more thanwilling to do.
So the 1928 campaign, of course,it's a big victory, and I think,
(17:05):
you know, there's some otherthings going on, too.
I think Hoover was the firstpresident born west of the
Mississippi, and he's a Stanfordgraduate, and I think he looked
at his solid victory in 1928.
In fact, you know, um, it's alandslide.
That was a victory for the Westand for a victory for the new
(17:26):
technocratic rising middle classand a victory for Stanford The
people in this cabinet aremostly from the West and many
from Stanford and I think that'sthe way they think about it That
you know that it's a new day forthe rising middle class.
I think he wanted to engineerKind of be the transformational
(17:49):
president from the older epochto the new
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (17:54):
I see.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (17:54):
not very successful at doing that,
but I think that's what he hasin mind.
He's into individualism.
He believes in volunteerism.
And of course, that means duringthe Depression, he's loathe to
demand that the Congressundertake certain things that
might have been more helpful.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (18:11):
So I know he's very private, fairly
emotionalist in his publicutterances.
So you say his associates helpedwith the campaign.
Did the public buy into thevision being put forth by those
associates or did they like thetechnocratic aura being put
forth?
I would see successful
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (18:28):
be well, he had, he had a
reputation.
I mean, nobody probably had agreater reputation practically
coming into the presidency thanherbert Hoover did in 1927.
He was the savior of Belgium.
Um, he was the a RA, theAmerican Relief Administration
that had provided aid even tothe Sylvia Union.
His opposition used to say hewas adamantly opposed to
(18:49):
communism, but he saved it.
Because of feeding the Russiansin 1920 and 1921.
And then he had the, you know,the German children's feeding
program.
Uh, one night on a trip toEurope, I was with a group of,
uh, German diplomats.
And two of them came up to meand said we've seen what your
work is doing on Hoover, and,uh, we want you to know that
(19:13):
when we were children, we wouldnot have survived the Hoover
Spice Up.
then, of course, 1927, Coolidgegives him the Mississippi Flood,
which is like Katrina.
It's one of the great disastersof American flood history, and
he handles it well.
So part of it is he's in thenewspaper every day and he's
(19:34):
successful at it.
So I think what they see there,I think is competence and
ability.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (19:40):
I see So he's elected president in
a landslide and his love ofoutdoors leads him while he's in
the white house to establishCamp rapidan am I saying that
correctly?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (19:50):
Yeah.
I mean, after he came back in1919, he goes to Florida for the
first time and starts to fishand he began to fish more in the
West, his favorite McKinseyriver and Oregon and other
places during the presidency.
It's cut back considerably.
But he continues to do it, andthen he did build Camp Rapidan,
he was looking for a place toand he went to what would become
(20:13):
Camp David and took a look atit, and decided no, and so he
put his people out fromWashington looking at a place,
and typically Hoover had a longlist of specifics.
It had to be about 2, 200 feet,because mosquitoes couldn't get
above that, uh, he hatedmosquitoes with a dedicated
passion.
And partially because of histime in China.
(20:35):
And, so anyway, they found thisbeautiful spot and then he and
Lou Henry went ahead and hiredan architect and designed it.
Have you been there?
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (20:44):
I have not is is in maryland
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (20:46):
It's in Virginia.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-202 (20:47):
Virginia.
Oh, okay.
Ah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (20:50):
it is amazing.
Really beautiful.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (20:53):
I'll need to go.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (20:54):
camp.
Uh, one of my friends who was aum, aide to con, uh, Arkansas.
Congressman, used to go up thereto fish.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (21:02):
Well, I'll have to do a remote
American POTUS from there.
I think that's, that's on theplans now, how we'll have to do
that.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_ (21:07):
American
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (21:08):
I'll, yeah, I'll have to go and tape
from that.
Sounds, sounds beautiful.
It
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (21:17):
right.
The buildings had to be right.
So many feet apart, that sort ofthing.
He never thought of his aid asbeing charity.
He thought of it as a scientificresponse, an empirical response
to particular disasters.
Like, you know, he had lists offoods, like, for Europeans, he
wouldn't export beans, becausethey took too much fuel to cook.
(21:39):
And he has a long list of thingslike that.
So in one sense, he's maniacalabout it, but you'll see if you
go to Rapidan, it's a beautifulcamp and he spent lots of time
there.
Uh, Roosevelt used to do greatimpressions, at dinner parties
of Hoover driving, to Rapidan,running everyone off the road.
Uh, Franklin Roosevelt wouldsay, and that the people went
(22:03):
ahead of him and shut thestreams down on each side of the
bridge, uh, and put fish.
in there for him to catch andthe fish had pet names.
And when he'd start to do thosemocking routines on other
people, Eleanor would alwayssay, now, Franklin, was the
(22:24):
green light.
And he would go ahead and dothat.
And people said they wereabsolutely hilarious.
He said then that they broughtout a big, comfortable chair.
And Hoover would sit in thechair and catch the pet fish.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1 (22:40):
really humanizes them to hear about FDR
doing that kind of thing.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (22:45):
when, you know, Hoover could, Hoover
could get some slaps back too.
One
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (22:49):
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (22:52):
was that, uh, Roosevelt was like a
chameleon on plaid.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (23:00):
They are, uh, that rivalry that we
spoke about last time is sointeresting and so important.
My next question is, is itreally about that?
How in that post defeat whereHoover is in these constant
battles with FDR, the, thedesire at some point trying to
get back to the White House howdid fishing play a part of that?
Since we're talking about him asa fishing president.
(23:21):
Yeah, mm hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (23:24):
he tried to use fishing and to get
out and to be with friends andto go to the Madison river in
Yellowstone and other places,but it, I don't think it would
really do it.
I mean.
For Hoover, it's a real shock.
He's, he has known nothing butoutrageous success.
And bang, he can't win the 32election, and it takes him a few
(23:45):
years to understand that thedepression is the albatross
around his neck, and forwhatever reasons, right or
wrong, he owns it.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (23:55):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (23:55):
And that's really hard for him.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (23:57):
Was he able to relax doing fishing?
No, no, okay
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (24:01):
Hoover has a hard time relaxing period.
You know, he's always has hishands in his pocket, jingling
change.
You know, he's very gerbil likeI think suffer from the same
thing.
So anyway, but yeah, I thinkthat was really hard for him at
first.
And, uh, there's that good storythat, About 1933 or 4, Hoover
(24:22):
and his big Buick is drivingdown the parkway in California
at 60 miles an hour and thehighway patrolman pulls him
home.
about 2 o'clock in the morning.
He's on his way back toStanford.
They've been up camping inOregon and it's too hot.
And Stanford is always cool, uh,Palo Alto.
Uh, and the patrolman puts hisfoot on the running board and
(24:43):
looks at the license.
And says, are you that guy?
And Hoover looks at him andsaid, yeah, well, I, yeah, yeah,
I guess I am that guy.
Then the patrolman takes hisfoot off, hams him back the
license and says, does it makeyou feel better to drive down
the California parkway at 60miles an hour at two o'clock in
the morning?
And Hoover hesitated for aminute and said, yeah, I think
(25:05):
it does.
Then the patrolman saluted himand said, drive on brother.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1 (25:11):
That's the kind of patrolman you want
to run into I like that
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (25:14):
That's true.
So yeah, then fishing picks up.
And at first.
You know, reman did not go well.
I mean, if the reman we justhad, you could say the tensions
were palpable.
They certainly were betweenHoover and Roosevelt.
And Hoover spent most of theinter eum like most presidents
do, trying to coax the presidentelect to adopt their policies.
(25:38):
And of course, Rooseveltwouldn't do that.
So in some ways, instead of evenlistening to some
recommendations that might have.
been good for him to listen to.
He did not.
and the ride to the, and thechangeover ceremony was a
difficult one.
And then Hoover was upset andnobody's quite figured out why,
(25:58):
but when he got out of thetrain, to go to New York, there
was no secret service for him.
He blamed Roosevelt.
Roosevelt denied it.
I've spent a good deal of timetrying to figure out who did
what to whom, but it's not clear
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (26:15):
Now this one last thing on his Being
unable to relax, I noticed inpretty much every photo you
included of Hoover fishing, hehas on a coat and tie.
Was
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (26:26):
But.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (26:26):
that normal or is that just Hoover?
Okay.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (26:28):
seems so strange now, but that's
normal.
If you look at Al Smith, it'sthe same thing.
Uh, and he continued to do that.
I have a few pictures.
Uh, in the, uh, maybe about 19,uh, 21, 22 in commerce, where he
actually has an open collar on.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (26:49):
Oh.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (26:49):
never, ever run into that.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1 (26:51):
Right.
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (26:53):
think, uh, do you have the hard back or
the paperback copy
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (26:56):
I have the paperback.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (26:57):
Good, because I love the cover,
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (26:59):
Yeah.
Oh, it's terrific.
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (27:01):
and that I found that in the Siski
museum in, uh, Eureka,California.
But I think it's one of the bestpictures of Hoover.
I've worked hard to try to findpictures of him privately
relaxing because privately hedrank a martini and a half,
probably two every afternoon.
Uh, ate macadamia nuts fromHawaii that he loved and what he
called yellow cheddar cheese,wrapped cheese and crackers.
(27:24):
And so, you know, he was then, Imean, there was always the
cocktail hour dinner was alwaysat eight, that sort of thing.
He ate most of the fish hecaught.
He loved it.
I mean, I don't think there'svery many human beings that ate
more fish than Hoover did.
but he also was a raconteur whocould tell jokes and none of
that is available to the public.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15315 (27:44):
Mm hmm.
I'll think of it.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (27:46):
I can't remember in which book,
but that Peggy Newton had madethe comment that one of the
people she knew, uh, had thatsame problem back and forth.
Uh, and I made the comment that,uh, that Peggy Noonan had never
known Herbert Hoover.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (28:03):
Yeah.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_ (28:05):
Dorsona.
Uh, and so that continues and,you know, he's not a great
speaker.
But he always made friends thatwere loyal to absolutely loyal
and he was good about puttingpeople around him who were
competent.
Um, the rules were this, theopen discussions could take
place, but once they had decidedon something.
(28:27):
You would not deviate.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (28:28):
Hmm.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (28:30):
But he was open to all kinds of
suggestions in the process.
But then, if you deviated, youwere excommunicated.
alan-lowe_1_01-23- (28:37):
Interesting.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (28:38):
Uh, he could be harsh, and he could
be tough.
I said, I think in Hoover,versus Roosevelt, that both he
and Roosevelt could be SOBs onoccasion, and really play
hardball.
But generally not.
Hoover didn't use bad languagevery often, but when he did, he
had not forgotten anything helearned in Australia.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (28:57):
Well, I know one president who could
be a hardball who would give himhell is President Truman and he,
he brought Hoover back from thepolitical wilderness.
What brought them together?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (29:06):
Uh, you know, I think, uh, when I
was working on voluntary foodconservations of the Truman
administration, I got tointerview Truman, uh, and have
him sign pictures for me.
And what I was working on wastoo low level for him and I
didn't want to waste the hour.
So all I said to him, it was onCharles Luckman and his role as
(29:28):
head of the citizen foodcommittee.
And he knew Luckman and who wasfrom Kansas city and, uh VIP in
the soap world.
But it wasn't going to go verywell, so I said, well, tell me
about your relationship withStrom Thurmond, and I never had
to say another word.
But I think, I think Truman verymuch that Hoover had been
(29:49):
mistreated, uh, and they're bothMidwestern boys from a poor
background.
Uh, you know, I don't think, Idon't think it's fair, really.
I shouldn't say that.
I, Truman, a little bit, I mean,it was a struggling farm family.
And Hoover, the Quaker familiesthat Hoover lived in were never
really poor.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (30:07):
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (30:08):
I mean, you know, they're
certainly not upper, uppermiddle class affluent, but, I
mean, they're self sufficient.
And the whole clan, basically,once they're in Iowa, you know,
aunts, uncles, they all end upin Oregon.
So he has an extended familynetwork.
Uh, but yeah, I think that'swhat Truman thought, and Truman
thought he should come back, andthat, uh, that, you know, FDR,
(30:31):
we're doing this now, so thatit's the, the Gulf of America
now.
Um, but that's not unusual, thatFDR took away the, the name of
the Hoover Dam and called it,you know, FDR.
Uh, after he was elected andTruman brought it back to
Hoover.
And so he put Hoover to workbecause he admired what he had
(30:52):
done in World War I and with hisrelief operations and gave him
the opportunity to travel aroundthe world, rounding up grain and
food supplies for Europe, whichhe did.
And so they became, you know, anodd couple, but close.
Truman amazingly, too, wouldsometimes, you know, have you
been to, uh, Truman's summerhouse in Key West?
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (31:13):
I sadly know.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (31:14):
it's really good.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (31:16):
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (31:16):
It's really nice, but sometimes he
and Bess would drive all the wayup through the Keys together.
And at one point, they stoppedat the Key Largo Anglos to see
Hoover and, and Truman justwalked into the, you know,
walked into the Key Largo Anglosclub and said he wanted to see
Hoover and people at the bar andthey'd say, what's a Democrat
(31:38):
doing in this Republican club?
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (31:40):
Yeah.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (31:40):
And, and, but he left Bess in the
car.
so they go get Hoover and Hooversays, I got to get my shoes, I
got to get my shoes.
And then nobody knows what theysaid, but they talked for about
an hour and a half.
Truman would call on him.
I think they, they had a verywarm relationship.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (31:57):
The same wasn't true necessarily
with, uh, Eisenhower.
Is that right?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (32:01):
I'll tell you what Hoover, Hoover was
a taft man and what Hoover hadgreat hopes for is that when the
Republicans back came back topower, they'd undo the new deal
and Eisenhower has no intentionof doing that.
And in fact, Nixon expanded itto some degree.
Uh, so.
That's, I think, thedisappointment.
(32:22):
I don't think there was anynecessary hostility there.
And they did do a fishing triptogether, and I think I included
a picture or
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (32:30):
hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (32:30):
that.
But, you know, it's not a warmrelationship.
In 1958, He did ask Hoover torepresent the United States, um,
at the World's Fair in Brusselson the 4th of July and loaned
him, uh, Air Force One,essentially the Columbine, to go
do that, and Hoover was gratefulfor that.
(32:51):
But no, he's a Taft man.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (32:54):
Well, Hal, I'll tell you, I, I so
enjoyed learning more aboutHerbert Hoover thanks to you.
What are you working on rightnow?
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (33:01):
Well, that's interesting.
I think, I can't do a book inless than five or six years.
I know that's
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (33:07):
Not understood.
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143152 (33:09):
so I think, uh, I don't know.
I, there's several things I'dlike to do.
I think when I'm percolating andthinking about new things, I
tend to write three or fourarticles.
And I've been playing aroundwith the Stanford and the Hoover
Institution on the relationshipbetween Mark Sullivan and
Hoover.
And it's a deep relationship.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (33:31):
Hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_1431 (33:31):
They spent a tremendous amount of
time together.
They ate, oftentimes theSullivans would eat at the White
House two and three nights aweek.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (33:39):
Hmm.
Mm
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14 (33:39):
they'd fish together and they'd spend
hours at night trying to figureout what they could do about the
Great Depression.
Nobody's ever paid muchattention to that.
You know that the six volumesthat Mark did, Our Times, he was
going to do two more thatincluded the Hoover
administration, but he wasgetting older and there are a
(34:00):
lot of notes and a lot ofthings, but never in kind of any
manuscript
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153 (34:04):
hmm.
Mm hmm.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (34:06):
But when Dan Rather did book,
redoing of the six volumes thatMark Sullivan had written, he
There's almost nothing in thereabout Hoover.
And so you can learn a lot aboutMark Solomon and know that, that
he and who, that he and Hooverhad a deeper personal
relationship.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (34:23):
Yeah.
Well, let's, I look,
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (34:25):
about exploring that.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_153151 (34:27):
I look forward to that.
You know, we want you back onAmerican POTUS whenever we can
have you here, Hal.
Thank you so much for joining usagain.
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_143 (34:33):
well, Alan, it's wonderful to talk to
you.
It's so much fun.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_1531 (34:37):
And I now have two, at least two
road trips I have to plan.
So
hal-wert_1_01-23-2025_14315 (34:40):
do.
Yeah, I do.
I think you'll, you, I think inboth of them, uh, you know, Key
West is fine too, because youknow, you're going to get the
Hemingway house and you're goingto get the Tennessee Williams
house too.
alan-lowe_1_01-23-2025_15 (34:52):
yeah, there you go.
There you go.
Well, thank you so much.
And I want to, I want to thankeveryone for joining us and for
your support of American POTUS.
You know, we're committed tobringing you amazing content
like today's conversation,fascinating guests, all to
advance our understanding of thepresidents and the presidency.
in a civil and nonpartisan way.
So I appreciate everyonelistening.
(35:12):
I encourage you also to checkout American FLOTUS, a podcast
that American POTUS is producingin partnership with the First
Ladies Association for Researchand Education, or FLARE.
You can find American FLOTUS atAmericanPOTUS.
org, FLARE net.
org, or on your favorite podcastplatform.
So thanks so much for joiningus, and I'll see you next time
(35:34):
on American POTUS.
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