May 31, 2024 • 46 mins
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squadcaster-2gc9_1_05-1 (00:00):
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe.
And before I turn to our greatguest today, I wanted to let our
listeners know that this is myfirst episode going solo.
Our longtime co host andproducer and great friend Scott
Brun has gone on to non POTUSpastors, and we wish him the
very, very best.
I know he'll be listening.
So for the next few episodes,please have patience as I learn
(00:25):
how to be a producer in additionto being a host.
I'm committed to carrying onwith American POTUS.
As you may know, we've recordedover 100 episodes with amazing
guests, and I remain obsessedwith the topic of the presidents
and the presidency.
So I really, really appreciateyour support and your patience.
So with that, it is my pleasureto welcome our guest today, Dr.
(00:49):
Hal Wert, a professor emeritusof history at the Kansas City
Art Institute.
Hal has written several books,including George McGovern and
the Democratic Insurgents.
Hope, a collection of Obamaposters and prints.
Hoover, the fishing president, aportrait of the private man.
And the terrific book we'regoing to discuss today, Hoover
(01:10):
versus Roosevelt, two presidentsbattle over feeding Europe and
going to war.
Hal, welcome to American POTUS.
it's an honor to be here.
Well, I, uh, I'm so pleased thatyou said yes, and, uh, you too
have been, been patient with meas I've learned this new
additional role I, really am abit obsessed with Herbert Hoover
(01:35):
and FDR.
So I was glad to see your bookand certainly enjoyed it.
Uh, let, let's, let's take ourlisteners back to, explain
Herbert Hoover and his presenceon the world stage.
He really burst onto that worldstage, right after, during and
after World War I.
So can you perhaps start ustoday by describing the
incredible work he did at thattime in Europe to save millions
(01:58):
of lives?
Prior to that.
Probably the peak of his fortunein 19 0 4, 19 0 5, which then
was estimated at four or$5million.
But when World War, one brokeout, there were tremendous
numbers of Americans that weretrapped in Europe.
(02:19):
And Hoover volunteered with theAmerican Ambassador to Great
Britain to find a way to getthem home.
And in the process theydiscovered that the food
situation in Belgium wasterrible.
And he was asked by the Americanambassador in Belgium and others
if they could put together arelief effort.
(02:40):
Well this became an absolutelyincredible thing.
The operation was so big that by1919 they were feeding about 10
million people.
And in that process they hadspent about 900 million dollars.
As I looked it up today, you cansee See how much$900 million is
(03:00):
today, but it's a staggering 16billion$248,485,000 but the CRB,
uh, charted its own ships, madeits own, purchases of grain,
raised the money, both fromcontributions from government,
particularly Great Britain,France, Belgium, and the United
States, and a few others.
(03:21):
And then some directcontributions from individuals
in those countries as well.
But what it did is put HerbertHoover on the national stage.
The Wilson administration askedhim to come in and be war food
administrator at the end of theWilson administration.
He did that and thatsuccessfully.
So everybody in America by 1919knew Herbert Hoover.
(03:44):
Well, I know that my first timeat West Branch, the wonderful
Presidential Library and Museumthere in Iowa, I really saw the
dichotomy between that earlyview of Hoover and the trouble
he went through, of course, withthe Great Depression during his
presidency of this amazingstart, though, this bursting
(04:05):
onto the world stage as thesavior, frankly, of millions of
people.
So, the two presidents you talkabout, again, are Hoover and
FDR.
And you talk about the similar,obviously there are great
differences, there are somesimilarities between the two
men.
Just to kind of begin todaythen, can you talk about those
personal and ideologicaldifferences and similarities
(04:26):
between Herbert Hoover andFranklin Roosevelt?
Sure, let me back up a bit.
After World, at the end of WorldWar I, I started the American
Relief Administration.
It went through threepresidential administrations.
And provided aid for, again,millions and millions of people
in 20 different countries.
(04:46):
But yes, there are tremendousdifferences between the two
presidents.
Of course, FDR is born towealth, the blue bride.
And Hoover, a lot of people havethought of Hoover's early life
as being one of poverty, but infact, by the time he's a junior
in high school and then a seniorin high school, He lives in
Oregon and his family is verymiddle class.
(05:09):
But he holds very differentviews than FDR does.
FDR, his experiences in the NewYork legislature, brought him in
contact with people in New YorkCity in the resettlement efforts
that sort of awakened his socialconsciousness about things that
needed to be done andparticularly with the poverty
that existed at the time.
(05:30):
And Hoover too had been exposedto that in his world travel.
For So both of them, I think,had a very good sense about some
things that needed to be done.
They're both progressives.
They're both in the, one ofcourse a Wilson progressive, the
other a Teddy Rooseveltprogressive.
But they're tremendouslyinfluenced by Woodrow Wilson's
internationalism.
And that's something that theydo share.
(05:52):
In fact, in 1919, Roosevelt,wrote a letter to the American
ambassador to Belgium suggestingthat Hoover would make a very
fine presidential candidate in1920.
It's interesting, too, that, howthings might have been different
had Hoover won the presidency in1920 rather than in 1928.
(06:14):
But Hoover saw the system as thesolution to problems.
He's very much an empiricist,very much a data guy.
And FDR is exactly the opposite.
He does not crush the system.
He does not pay any attention tothe hierarchy or chain of
command.
And while that causesdifficulties, he's perfectly
willing to bypass people inhigher positions and make
(06:36):
friends, and gather materialfrom people that he trusts.
It's interesting you say, youknow, both progressives.
That's, as I think the, um,Perhaps the less informed view
of Hoover would not think that,but it certainly was his
background.
And, again, something yourremarks remind me of is that
strain of Wilsonism that, thatgoes on,, after the Wilson
(06:58):
administration on, uh, if Irecall correctly, Richard Nixon
said one of his heroes wasWoodrow Wilson because of that
international approach, thatinternational perspective.
So, again, Uh, and often said topeople that, he thought, New
Jersey's schoolmaster wouldapprove of some of the things
(07:20):
that he had done, during thepresidency.
But later, I mean, Hoover's is aprogressive, up in say, into the
1920s.
Uh, but by the time he's apresident, he's moved to a more
traditional 19th century liberalposition.
A Republican moderate.
So we know that Hoover loses hisbid for re election as the
(07:41):
country's in the throes of theGreat Depression and FDR goes
into office.
So when war broke out in 1939 inEurope, where was Herbert Hoover
then?
And how had he been spending histime since that losing campaign
to FDR back in 32?
Well, after he lost, it wasvery, he probably, very few
(08:02):
people in American history havegone from the pillars Of success
that he had before thepresidency to becoming the, you
know, having the albatross ofthe depression around that.
that's a difficult thing for himto deal with.
But by say 1936, he's back inpolitics again.
And in one sense he's a kind ofler ahead of the Republican
(08:23):
party and as an ex-president, hehas a voice and he's adamantly
opposed to the new deal.
But by 1939.
He also becomes opposed toRoosevelt's foreign policy and
distrusts Roosevelt, as manyother people do, that after the
war breaks down, Roosevelt willlead us into that war.
(08:56):
Could or should be met?
You know, I think that'sinteresting.
I think one of the mostimportant things I found out
during the research is that ofcourse, 90%, over 90% of the
American people are opposed tointervention its own war, but
tremendous numbers of thosepeople, including both Roosevelt
and Hoover support building upthe American military.
(09:18):
Others do not, but Uber does.
His stipulations was trying todecide between offensive and
defensive weapons.
He was perfectly happy to sellany defensive weapons to any
country that needs it, in termsof reforming the neutrality
laws.
But FDR wanted to have an openhand, and that's their
disagreement about aid toEuropeans at the time.
(09:44):
I think many historians haveunderestimated the importance of
World War I in 1939.
Situation.
The, the war is alive and wellin people's memory.
And the horrors of the war, the10 million people killed on the
Eastern front.
Disappointment with the Treatyof Versailles, and reluctant to
(10:04):
be able to get involved againmilitarily.
Well, I think of course, thatHitler took advantage of that
with his own people, but also asyou look at England and France
and the other Western powers.
Not preparing, not being readyto take on the German threat
before war because of thatmemory.
Right.
That's interesting about, aboutthe German threat.
Threat too.
(10:24):
I, I think in 1939 the majorityof Americans, uh, cannot
conceive of the fact that Hitlercould, could defeat Great
Britain.
I see.
Yeah.
That's gonna change, of course,right?
You know, they're the greatpowers.
In the world.
And so, you know, Roosevelt'sstrategy of helping the British
and the French arming them.
first and then there being ourfirst line of defense while
(10:46):
building up our defense is aposition that is accepted by
tremendous numbers of Americans.
The fight is not really aboutintervention.
It's the, the fight is about howto stay out of the war.
So, we know at the verybeginning of the war in Europe,
(11:06):
as the Germans go into Poland,FDR reached out tentatively to
Hoover for assistance and reliefefforts in Poland.
So, why did FDR do that despitetheir differences, and how did
that effort die almostimmediately?
Well, we could spend some timeon this, but, after the
presidency, and the interregnum,between Roosevelt and Kennedy,
(11:29):
The Hoover administration, uh,in 1932 and 1933, there
developed between the two ofthem a kind of enmity.
So you're right, Occupy, whywould you reach out?
But a lot of it has to do withEleanor Roosevelt and influence
on her by a woman by the name ofMaria Maloney, who spoke to her,
(11:51):
a liberal Republican who spoketo her and said, you know, you
know about, uh, Hoover's greataccomplishments during the war.
You need to bring him in as awar foods administrator and get
her in charge of relief.
And Eleanor had alreadyrecognized that, and so she
pushes her husband to make anoffer to Hoover to come in to
the administration in charge ofrelief.
(12:13):
Actually in the negotiationsthat took place in September of
1939 between the two of them,Uh, Roosevelt really has no
interest in really bringing,Hoover into the administration.
And Hoover has no interest ingoing into the administration.
So in a way, they both get whatthey want.
Now, Hoover needs to know thatFDR made the effort.
(12:35):
And Hoover needs to know that,the proposals that he makes to,
uh, to, uh, Roosevelt on a Uh,will not be acceptable and they
can both go about their own way.
What Hoover really wanted, wasthe Red Cross to take up
feeding, as part of the reliefeffort.
And the Red Cross and theRoosevelt administration were
committed to a policy ofemergency aid only.
(12:58):
And that's the crux of theargument.
Hoover wants a feeding programthat's more long term.
And FDR and the Democrats do notwant to get involved.
And they think that Hoover'sideas really threaten them.
It could potentially threaten,uh, aid to Great Britain, and
France.
Sure, he does.
(13:20):
I mean, you know, I thinkbecause of Hoover's, and we'll
talk about this later withFinland as well, but because of,
Hoover's commitment to thePoles, which is a long one, he
was responsible during theTreaty of Versailles of pushing
Wilson hard to recognize Polandand during the, uh, as an
(13:43):
independent country.
And during the operations of theARA, uh, he ensured that Poland
had gotten a tremendous, amountof, aid.
So in some ways with bothFinland, and we'll talk about
that later and with Poland,Hoover and people associated
with Hoover and the Americanrelief And had a thumb in the
(14:04):
Polish pie for a long time.
So once the war starts onSeptember 1st, it's pretty
clear.
Uh, he's in California trying tohustle votes.
A non committed Californiadelegation for the coming,
Republican convention in 1940.
What, it's pretty clear thathe's going to attempt to do
something.
(14:24):
And then the person that's withhim at the time, um, an American
woman that had worked inBelgium, for all of those years,
pushes him hard, too, to go forPolish relief and to set an
organization up.
So, he, regardless of what FDRsays or doesn't do, which he's
not going to bend on policy,it's pretty clear that Hoover's
(14:44):
going to go ahead with aid.
And he does so.
And creating with a commissionfor college relief what shocks
fdr is how quick he can possiblydo it Because it's a private
organization And the money comesfrom money that was left over
from the belgian americaneducational fund when after
world war one They soldcommodities that they still had
(15:07):
when they disbanded the crb andbanked that money for
scholarships and aid for belgiumso in a way he has Money
available that he can get toquickly And two, the American
Relief Administration and theCRB have had reunions every year
since 1919 and 1923.
And he has what I call a kindof, uh, Minutemen of Relief.
(15:30):
People that, uh, means ofsuccess that he can call on
immediately, to volunteer for anaid program.
So that by the end of September1939, he's already a business
and he has already, He's alreadyable to transfer some money to
Poland and, and those folks, hehas on the ground there working
on the ground, not just inPoland, but in the, the
(15:53):
countries around where thoserefugees are streaming.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
Well, of course, originally it'sthe people that served in the
CRB who are now quite successfulor served in the a RA, but on
the ground, it's recommended tohim by Maurice Pay, who
eventually became head ofunicef.
And was a relief worker in theara and Had worked closely with
(16:15):
hoover said, you know if we canget paul super if we can find
paul super who's head of theBullish ymca, we can probably
set up an organization morequickly in romania And be able
to render aid there's tens ofthousands of people coming
across the border that areracing across poland to escape
the The german onslaught that'spushing them into romanian
(16:38):
hunger So how did, how didHoover's people there in the CPR
work with the Germans?
How did the Germans view, howdid the Nazis view their efforts
within Poland?
Well, the efforts in Polanddon't take place for a while.
Not until later in the fall.
(16:59):
But of course the Germans are,unhappy about any aid for Poles
and would like to see Polandtotally disappear.
But of course, the Rooseveltadministration, approves of a
Polish government that'sattempting to re establish
itself in France.
Uh, and decides that agovernment does not have to be
(17:19):
on its original soil to be ableto represent a particular
country.
I see.
Part of that decision was basedon the fact that The, Serbian
army had been driven to Corfuduring World War I.
Um, and people continue torecognize it as the legitimate
government of Serbia.
So they found a historicalprecedent for it.
(17:40):
But the people that are workingon the ground in Romania
immediately are an amazing groupof people.
And it's, in fact, almost amiracle that leaving Warsaw some
with the diplomatic corps andothers with the, with the
welfare agency of the Polishgovernment made it across Poland
(18:01):
and were able to, to get anoperation quickly.
But, you know, super, I guess weshould say this.
The YMCA efforts in Europe afterWorld War I are incredible.
Some started a little bitearlier.
Uh, it is a kind ofecumenicalism that was produced
by Mott, who was the director ofthe YMCA at the time.
(18:23):
So YMCA's are established inmost of the East European, New
East European countries thatwere created by the Treaty of
Versailles.
The people that ran thoseorganizations, spoke the
languages, knew the country, uh,and have spent many, many years
there with many contacts.
So in Romania, the YMCA underJimmy Brown, and the YMCA then
(18:46):
that leaves Poland, And by theend of September 1939, they're
doing 1, 000 breakfasts, 2, 000lunches and 2, 500 dinners a
day.
Wow.
Wow.
Very impressive.
Uh, how did, how did FDR respondto the work of the CPR?
(19:10):
I know part of that is how didhe respond politically?
What did he think Hoover was upto?
Yeah, right.
Well, not well, Not well, youknow, I I think you know one of
the pieces of the book thatintrigued me by it that in all
the rules about Reconjurancyover the years over policy.
(19:30):
This is the only time thathoover gets a leg up on fdr
because Public response to thecpr and particularly against
polish americans, and of coursemost polish americans are
democrats So fdr sees this asboth a political threat and a
threat to his policy of limitedemergency aid but Because of the
(19:51):
popularity of the cpr hooverforces both the red cross And
fdr to do far more than theyever did Was hoover at that
point thinking about another runWell, he's always thinking about
it.
You know, Mrs.
(20:12):
POTUS, you know the disease.
He's definitely thinking aboutrunning again, and not so much
in 1936, but he really thinks hehas a chance in 1940.
And one of the reasons he doesis there's no airfare in the
Republican Party, and there'slots of newcomers in the party.
Robert Taft is not elected until1938.
(20:35):
Dewey is still a successfulattorney general, busting the
mafia in New York, and you know,Hoover, he's been the past
president, and so his strategyis to try to get as many
delegations uncommitted aspossible, then like William
Jennings Bryan giving a greatspeech at the 1940 convention,
and on the third or fourthballot he thinks he's gonna win.
(20:58):
Now, I understand that there's ahigh degree of fantasy involved.
But what happens of course is Idon't think his relief efforts
some people have suggested thathis Desire to be president again
and his relief efforts arecontradictory or that it's a
cynical effort on his part, butI don't think it is.
I mean, he's genuinely committedto both The polls and the fans
(21:20):
and he also wants to bepresident The problem is in
doing two things at the sametime over the winter of 39 40.
He spends way more time onrelief He does on politics.
And of course his strategy issimply that the relief efforts
will drive, you know, will drivehim towards the nomination in
summer 1940.
(21:40):
Of course they don't, but it'snot unrealistic to think about
that, because his campaign in1940 really starts in Poland.
Not in the united states, uh,it's it's his ability to
generate publicity from thatcampaign The problem is he has
trouble raising money.
The cpr relied on mostlydonations from the polish
(22:03):
american community and thepolish american community is
badly split between The simplestway to say it is between the
Chicago polls and the New Yorkpolls.
And the New York polls tend tobe very supportive of Hoover and
the CPR, and the Chicago polls,who are the bigger of the
national organizations, tend tolean toward the Red Cross.
(22:23):
But both split the differenceand give to both organizations.
Although the Red Cross, givenits tight policy, never runs a
national campaign to raise moneyfor either Poland or Finland.
You know, you, you reminded meof a question I had early on,
Hal, and I, I realize you justraised it again.
Hoover and his desire to help somany we saw in the World War I
(22:48):
machine right now as we'retalking about his efforts as
World War II breaks out.
What, what do you think you knowthe man you've done so much
research about Hoover.
Where did that come from?
What led him to have thatgenuine desire?
Aside from the political um,Maneuvers were to come from.
I think that's really a greatquestion.
I really do.
I think, a lot, I think this isone of the things, uh, well, let
(23:11):
me say this first, that youknow, he has a special affection
for children and a specialaffection for women.
You know, he's very adamantabout his commitment to the
Geneva Convention and to the twohate conventions that civilians
should not be attacked.
In war, and she, uh, the, haveneutral status.
(23:34):
But I think it comes from hisown childhood, where, he was
orphaned at an early age, andhis father died first.
And so, in some ways, he was,you know, he and his brother and
his sister were with a, anindependent, struggling woman.
And later, I think that, that,in his Quakerism, I think Yes.
(23:55):
I think part of EleanorRoosevelt's appreciation for
Hoover is not only his greatwork in World War I, but I think
her childhood was extremelydifficult as well.
So I think there's empathy therebetween the two of them about
their difficult upbringing.
Interesting.
I do think it's sincere on thatpart.
(24:16):
Yeah.
And then, of course, in WorldWar I.
Uh, he's on the front to seeexactly what happens.
What's happening in Belgium, andwhat's happening particularly to
women and children.
It's the same argument we've gotgoing with Gaza now, you know.
The women and children of Gazaare suffering.
(24:46):
providing arms.
Part of that's all wrapped up inthe Neutrality Act and the U.
S.
embargo provisions that are partof that.
FDR worked to obtain an end tothem.
Can you, can you perhaps justdescribe in general what those
embargo provisions were, how FDRfought them, and where Hoover
stood in that debate?
Sure.
The idea was, you know, that,you could, you could not,
(25:07):
export, the neutralitylegislation and it had an
embargo clause in it that youcould not Sell to any countries
that were at war And during the19th after it was solidified in
34 and 35 congress, uh fastedroosevelt signed it The crisis
that broke out particularly inchina and then with the italians
(25:29):
and ethiopia Demonstrated and infact american neutrality tended
to favor the aggressor Becausethe italians and the japanese
didn't need anything but thechinese and the ethiopians did
And so that brought that wholequestion up about what to do and
what could be done.
(25:50):
Amazingly, even some of thesenators that had opposed FDR,
the ones that are noted as thewild jackasses, uh, and that
includes Borah of Idaho, andthat includes Johnson of
California, and that includes V.
H.
Wheeler, who's a democrat, bythe way, of, uh, Montana.
And then, the North DakotaSenator, too.
(26:12):
Gerald Nye.
But, the problem is this.
That, that, they're not anecessary, the reason they
oppose the, uh, reformation, or,or changes in the embargo
legislation, is that they don'ttrust Roosevelt, and they think
it's only the first move.
So their attitude in 39 is, ifwe don't fight back, I'm going
to stop now and make a strongcase we won't have anything to
(26:35):
stand on later when FDR wants togo further down the road.
They're convinced that FDR wantsto support the British and the
French militarily and will getus involved in another war.
Which brings an interestingquestion.
You know, one of the, one of thewords I was most interested in
during the research wasisolation.
(26:55):
And isolation.
And of course it's a pejorativeand one that Roosevelt used
effectively, and the argumentstook place, in the Congress in
1939.
And then later too, and a wordthat we use a lot today, and I
finally decided there are no,there really are no
isolationists in 1939.
(27:15):
There are just antiinterventionists that are
fighting like mad about what'sthe best way to keep us out of
war.
Interesting.
But that pejorative is stillused today amazingly, and it's
very effective.
But ask yourself, what is it?
I mean, what does it reallymean?
And so lots of people like theFour Wild Jackasses were not
(27:36):
opposed to all kinds of otherinternational organizations, uh,
or E.
And what they were opposed towas simply going to war The cry
for most of Americans in 1939.
And I think this is based on theexperience of World War I, is
never again we're not going todo this.
(28:03):
Is in finland where the sovietsinvade in november.
I was in finland last year Myfirst time there in helsinki in
vanta and that war seems to bevery much still on their minds
Especially with the aggressivemoves recently of russia so how
did fd?
Yeah, how did fdr and theamerican government respond to
(28:23):
that invasion of finland innovember of 39?
Well the rooseveltadministration, I mean Basically
The, the Rooseveltadministration debates both with
Poland and Hitler and, withStalin, and the Russians about
how far they want to go.
And basically it's writingletters or making strong stands
(28:44):
about, about their actions.
They had no intention of takingany real action to prevent it.
I think what they hoped bothwith Poland and with Finland is
they would be very quickepisodes that would disappear
and they could stay tuned totheir policy of aiding Great
Britain and France and not getdistracted.
I think they're afraid that eventhat both Poland and Finland can
(29:06):
become a backdoor to war.
Of course, Uber is pushing forlong term aid to Poland, long
term feeding aid to Finland, Uh,to Finland and later in the
spring long term feeding aid to,after the conquest, the
Hitlerian conquest, to Hollandand Belgium as well.
That's the heart of theconflict.
Like, the Rooseveltadministration,, said to the
(29:28):
Russians, please don't doanything you'll accept, uh, that
will compromise Finnishneutrality, whatever.
Uh, but, uh, Once the warstarts, they're on the hook
again to be able to help aid theFinns.
Because Hoover moves immediatelyto aid the Finns.
And there again, he wasoriginally, he was very
(29:51):
important in his secretary inWorld War I in gaining Finnish
independence at the end of thewar.
And in fact, the Strauss Uh, wholater became head of the Atomic
Energy Commission, was hissecretary.
And he had held post aid, whowas the foreign minister of
Finland, with money andeverything else to be able to
get their independence.
(30:11):
So there's no doubt Hoover'sgonna go to the aid of Finland.
And of course, because of whathappened with the CRB, the Red
Cross knows they have to get inthere quick.
Uh, and Norman Davis, who's headof the Red Cross, has done an
amazing job.
The telegram to uber boastingthat the red cross had beat Uh
(30:32):
uber to with supplies to helpBut the same thing's going to
happen again.
The only difference here uber'sgoing to take a different tack
He the crb was underfunded andhe couldn't raise enough money.
So uber decides he's going to doa nationwide campaign and enlist
as many people as he possiblycan And of course the finnish
(30:53):
cause is way more popular thanthe bullish cause and partially
because Americans knew basicallyfour things about finland that
it was far north and cold Thatthey had great track stars and
great runners in the late 1930sAnd that they had repaid their
national debt to the unitedstates.
The only country that did soafter world war one So that and
(31:16):
because the fins hold out Andthis is not fdr would prefer
that I think they not pulled outthat the war would end quickly
the pressure rises for more andmore aid from finland And so
hoover's nationwide campaign istied to newspapers.
He asked american newspapers torun ads and collect money for
(31:37):
finland, and then Submitteddirectly to the finnish relief
fund and that immediately makesit a nationwide campaign And for
the first time, he makes, uh,overtures to Hollywood stars.
And ends up having several dozenof them that campaigned
nationally for Phineas Ridley.
(31:57):
You like the picture in the bookof Popeye making it?
That was terrific.
He got everyone involved.
He did, got everyone involved,and of course, this is political
pressure again.
So, there's always two aspectsof it.
There's the humanitarian aspect,and both the Roosevelt
administration and Hoover aregenuine about that.
(32:19):
Uh, and then there's thepolitical aspect of it.
Uh, a historian friend of mine,who I don't think is right about
this, thinks that, FDR is reallyafraid of running against Hoover
And I don't think so.
I think he would be delighted torun it.
Yeah.
I tend to agree with you onthat.
(32:40):
I, I know FDR though did takeefforts to smear this campaign
for Finland.
What were some of the ways he,he tried to fight this Finish
Relief fund work by Hoover?
Yeah.
I mean that too is the same kindof story.
they tried to make it look likeit was illegitimate or mostly
just politics on the part.
(33:03):
But they were unsuccessful indoing that.
What happened is that, in fact,millions of Americans made small
donations to the Finnish ReliefFund.
But again, like with Poland,there weren't any big donors.
And so, both, by February of1940, both the CPR and the FRI
are beginning to run out ofmoney.
(33:24):
And so Hoover actually loans theFinnish Relief Fund a nice hunk
of change.
To be able to keep it going andhe goes to Washington when FDR
is out of town.
It's interesting to get theFDR's calendar and to go to
Washington so he wouldn't haveto meet with the president.
He went through Cordell Hall.
(33:47):
Cordell Hall let him know whenit would be okay to be able to
come to Washington, avoidRoosevelt, and then make a pitch
to the Congress about how muchmoney needed to be appropriated
for.
Foreign a generally withearmarks for both, for both
Poland and for Finland.
But then the whole situationbegins to change, as you know,
(34:07):
quite radically in March of1940, when, very quickly in
March and April, uh, the Germansin Bay Market, I wondered, you
talked about Hoover.
Yeah, he does not want to dothat, uh, but there's real
(34:33):
pressure for him to do that.
And there are several otherorganizations that began to
compete for funds.
And one of them is FightingFunds for Finland, which is
raising money.
You could buy anything from abullet, and swallow for a
dollar.
Or you could buy an airplane ifyou wanted to.
And, you know, there are peoplealso volunteering to go fight
(34:54):
for Finland.
Some people, some of thevolunteers that were raised
through the Finnish embassy, thepeople argued we missed our
chance for the Spanish CivilWar, and now we'll get our
chance, in Finland.
So there were volunteers leavingfrom America.
A couple thousand of themeventually that did go to
Finland.
Uh, and at the same time, FDR isunder pressure as well, but
(35:20):
wait, the question was whyHoover changed his mind about
it, but I think because of thecompeting organizations.
What he really did is say, ifyou make donations to the
Finnish Relief Fund and specifythat it's for, arms and
ammunition, I'll turn that moneyover to the other organizations.
So it's a kind of halfway stepto do that.
And then Roosevelt's on the hooktoo, to the bins.
(35:42):
And he actually, illegally,takes some fighter aircraft, the
Buffalo Brewsters that belongedto the Navy at the, at the time
they frontline fighters.
But even a year later, they'rebasically because of the huge,
increase in fighter production.
But anyway, he decommissionsthem and has them flown, by,
(36:05):
mostly by, people who worked forthe Grumman Corporation to
Iceland, and then Finnish pilotsand Swedish pilots pick them up
and fly them on to, uh, fly themon to Finland.
So, there's, you know, theRoosevelt administration, too,
is under real pressure to makedirect cash contributions, which
the Red Cross does not want.
(36:27):
Which fdr does not want to doand in both cases they were lame
They make cash contributions tothe league of red cross
societies that then disperse itto either the red cross in
hungary or romania Or release itto the finnish red cross They do
some other deals that are reallyinteresting too that are kind of
like the contra deals that thereagan administration did The
(36:51):
Finns would like to have a 10million loan.
And the U.
S.
said we'd be happy to give thatif you buy agricultural
commodities.
Well, you know, the Finns arenot interested in agricultural
commodities.
Uh, what they want are arms andammunition.
So what happens is, the 10million, uh, worth of, of
(37:12):
commodities are put on theexchange, the wanted exchange.
Um, and the Swedes buy the 10million worth of commodities,
and they turn the 10 millioncash over to the Finns and then
order arms and ammunition.
The FDR administration did thesame thing with John Kai Schack,
but FDR, about November of 1940says, you know, I think this is
(37:36):
risky business, we ought not todo that.
And they decide that that'sgoing to be the last time that
happens.
You mentioned earlier the, uh,the Blitzkrieg into the Low
Countries and into France.
What did Hoover and his, and hisorganizations do there?
And how far into the war effortdid that continue?
Is that a continuous thing ordid it come to an end at some
(37:58):
point?
That's a great question, Alan.
You know, I think the, uh, youknow, I call the period, the
period from the conquest ofPoland in early October to Until
the following spring when thewar starts I call that period
waiting for hitler Nobody knowswhat he's going to do in
october.
He's putting out kind of peacefeelers and that sort of thing
(38:20):
and I might say you asked methis question earlier and uh, we
hadn't gotten to it yet But it'slater in the fall that hoover
decides he's not going to justaid the refugees in lithuania
And hungary and in romania.
He wants to get aid directly YouInto the new german, you know,
the germans took poland andcarved it down Into a very small
(38:43):
area called the governmentgeneral and hoover wants to get
aid in there and he beginsnegotiations in november
december and he finally getspermission to be able to do some
aid there in february And thequestion is why would the
germans do that particularlybecause hoover would make the
aid mandatory the jews could Uh,as well as Gentiles in Poland.
(39:04):
And why would Hitler agree tothat?
Well, as part of those post,Polish invasion, efforts to make
themselves look more reasonableas a type of PR factor, and the
reasoning was they thought thateventually it would make no
difference anyway whether theyfed Jews or not because they had
control of them and could dowhat they wanted.
(39:25):
So, in fact, Hoover does get aidinto the government, and that
aid to Poland continues into1941 and early 1942.
And then just after America goesto War of Germany, it all comes
to Mm-Hmm, So in the end, howwould you characterize the, the
success or lack of success ofHoover's relief efforts?
(39:48):
Well, I, the reason I pickedthis up is, you know, I, he had
ignored this story.
Uh, the more I researched, themore I found out, it's not only
that, that he was able to, youknow, get one off on Franklin
Roosevelt, it's hard for me toknow how much he really
appreciated that.
That that was gonna be his onlyvictory because, in the fall of
(40:12):
1940, in November, he starts, anew relief.
Food committee, and pushes forit for the next two or three
years, but it never goesanywhere So the victory that he
has is between september of 1939and 1940 but regardless of The
politics involved what ended upbeing done for the polish
(40:33):
refugees and for some people inthe government general and for
the feds is amazing It would behard to know how the hundreds of
thousands of people that pouredout of Poland, it's sort of a
diaspora of Poland, how muchworse they would have fared if
they didn't have access to food,lodging, travel, whatever,
(40:54):
medical attention in all threecountries.
And traditionally I had readthat most of the refugees
escaped.
And of course, that's not true.
At first, tremendous numbersescaped, but then the Germans
and the Russians put more andmore heat on both the
Lithuanians and on theHungarians and the Romanians to
(41:14):
be able to intern those soldiersand put them in camps.
And several tens of thousands ofthem in all three countries end
up going to camps.
Most of them don't fare thatwell.
And that's one thing I certainlymeant to stress a bit more
earlier.
Of course, we know as the Naziswent into Poland, so did the
Soviets.
Yes, they did.
(41:34):
The Soviets got the bigger hunk.
So, you know, that's why I did awhole chapter in the book on the
Russo, Nazi pact, because it'sso important to how things take
place.
Yeah.
Uh, this, this morning, formerambassador to Poland, Victor
Ash, spoke at a group, Iattended this morning, uh,
Victor's an old friend.
He was, ambassador to Poland,for George W.
Bush.
(41:54):
And, talked a little bit aboutthis history to the group.
But really sad history ofPoland, hopefully now on a
better track.
How Will you give him a copy ofmy book?
Oh, I most definitely will.
I most definitely will.
I think he might enjoy it.
Oh, he would.
He would.
I was, uh, very fortunate whenhe was ambassador to be able to
go to Warsaw and spend a coupledays with, with the ambassador
and his wife there at theresidence.
(42:14):
It's really, Learned a lot aboutthe country.
He learned a lot about thecountry and was a great
ambassador, I think, so I willdefinitely get him a copy of
your book.
You know, I thought one of the,I really enjoyed doing the
research in Lithuania andHungary, Romania, and Poland
itself.
I think the pictures and thecolor, uh, the color section of
(42:38):
the book really add to it.
Oh, it does.
It does.
It's really, really well done.
How, I always ask this question,uh, what's next?
Are you working on anythingright now?
Well, you know i've done twoposter books and I have the
material to do a basically do aposter book on the relief
posters Of world war time and Iwould probably should do that
(43:00):
But i'm also interested in someother topics I served in an army
security agency as a Lowcryptography and mostly traffic
analysis And there's no, I don'tknow that there'd be enough
unclassified material, butthere's almost nothing on my
(43:21):
unit.
I thought it might be fun to seewhat I could find out that might
be disclassified and find outabout what my unit, because you
know, it has always been, youknow, no such agency, it's hard
to get material.
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
Well, you know, there's thingsI'd like to, there's all kinds
(43:41):
of things I'd like to know, but,uh, one of the new books that
came out by, Jacobson, I thinkthe woman is that does the good
books on this.
Oh, yes, Annie, Annie Jacobson,I believe.
Yeah, yeah, she did a greatbook.
One of the things I wanted toknow in there, we would
occasionally, in trafficanalysis, we'd pick up code
words.
And I know what those code wordsare, but I can't tell you.
(44:05):
But anyway, well, I reallyshouldn't.
But anyway, I wondered what Amyhad to say about those.
Could there be any correlationbetween what I knew from, you
know, the NSA was.
What can you glean from thetraffic?
So what we glean from, but thepoint is this.
We'd send those code words inour ComSec reports to Dern's and
Director of National SecurityAgency.
(44:27):
And we'd get back at Telex thatsaid, leave it alone, it's a
higher classification.
Well, of course, that whettedour appetite.
But we couldn't keep monitoring,you know.
So anyway, Amy did sort ofconfirm for me what I think a
couple of the code words reallymeant, because, you know, she
(44:47):
was dealing with that classifiedmaterial.
16 and 63 or so, but I very muchenjoyed her book.
Well, it's a complicated topic,and I hope I made it more
(45:10):
understandable, and maybe thiswill get a few more people to
read the book.
I'm so glad you appreciate it.
Consider supporting our work.
We are a 501 c3 non profit.
So this is Alan Lowe sayingthank you and join us again soon
(45:33):
and often on American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:02):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe.
And before I turn to our greatguest today, I wanted to let our
listeners know that this is myfirst episode going solo.
Our longtime co host andproducer and great friend Scott
Brun has gone on to non POTUSpastors, and we wish him the
very, very best.
I know he'll be listening.
So for the next few episodes,please have patience as I learn
(00:25):
how to be a producer in additionto being a host.
I'm committed to carrying onwith American POTUS.
As you may know, we've recordedover 100 episodes with amazing
guests, and I remain obsessedwith the topic of the presidents
and the presidency.
So I really, really appreciateyour support and your patience.
So with that, it is my pleasureto welcome our guest today, Dr.
(00:49):
Hal Wert, a professor emeritusof history at the Kansas City
Art Institute.
Hal has written several books,including George McGovern and
the Democratic Insurgents.
Hope, a collection of Obamaposters and prints.
Hoover, the fishing president, aportrait of the private man.
And the terrific book we'regoing to discuss today, Hoover
(01:10):
versus Roosevelt, two presidentsbattle over feeding Europe and
going to war.
Hal, welcome to American POTUS.
it's an honor to be here.
Well, I, uh, I'm so pleased thatyou said yes, and, uh, you too
have been, been patient with meas I've learned this new
additional role I, really am abit obsessed with Herbert Hoover
(01:35):
and FDR.
So I was glad to see your bookand certainly enjoyed it.
Uh, let, let's, let's take ourlisteners back to, explain
Herbert Hoover and his presenceon the world stage.
He really burst onto that worldstage, right after, during and
after World War I.
So can you perhaps start ustoday by describing the
incredible work he did at thattime in Europe to save millions
(01:58):
of lives?
Prior to that.
Probably the peak of his fortunein 19 0 4, 19 0 5, which then
was estimated at four or$5million.
But when World War, one brokeout, there were tremendous
numbers of Americans that weretrapped in Europe.
(02:19):
And Hoover volunteered with theAmerican Ambassador to Great
Britain to find a way to getthem home.
And in the process theydiscovered that the food
situation in Belgium wasterrible.
And he was asked by the Americanambassador in Belgium and others
if they could put together arelief effort.
(02:40):
Well this became an absolutelyincredible thing.
The operation was so big that by1919 they were feeding about 10
million people.
And in that process they hadspent about 900 million dollars.
As I looked it up today, you cansee See how much$900 million is
(03:00):
today, but it's a staggering 16billion$248,485,000 but the CRB,
uh, charted its own ships, madeits own, purchases of grain,
raised the money, both fromcontributions from government,
particularly Great Britain,France, Belgium, and the United
States, and a few others.
(03:21):
And then some directcontributions from individuals
in those countries as well.
But what it did is put HerbertHoover on the national stage.
The Wilson administration askedhim to come in and be war food
administrator at the end of theWilson administration.
He did that and thatsuccessfully.
So everybody in America by 1919knew Herbert Hoover.
(03:44):
Well, I know that my first timeat West Branch, the wonderful
Presidential Library and Museumthere in Iowa, I really saw the
dichotomy between that earlyview of Hoover and the trouble
he went through, of course, withthe Great Depression during his
presidency of this amazingstart, though, this bursting
(04:05):
onto the world stage as thesavior, frankly, of millions of
people.
So, the two presidents you talkabout, again, are Hoover and
FDR.
And you talk about the similar,obviously there are great
differences, there are somesimilarities between the two
men.
Just to kind of begin todaythen, can you talk about those
personal and ideologicaldifferences and similarities
(04:26):
between Herbert Hoover andFranklin Roosevelt?
Sure, let me back up a bit.
After World, at the end of WorldWar I, I started the American
Relief Administration.
It went through threepresidential administrations.
And provided aid for, again,millions and millions of people
in 20 different countries.
(04:46):
But yes, there are tremendousdifferences between the two
presidents.
Of course, FDR is born towealth, the blue bride.
And Hoover, a lot of people havethought of Hoover's early life
as being one of poverty, but infact, by the time he's a junior
in high school and then a seniorin high school, He lives in
Oregon and his family is verymiddle class.
(05:09):
But he holds very differentviews than FDR does.
FDR, his experiences in the NewYork legislature, brought him in
contact with people in New YorkCity in the resettlement efforts
that sort of awakened his socialconsciousness about things that
needed to be done andparticularly with the poverty
that existed at the time.
(05:30):
And Hoover too had been exposedto that in his world travel.
For So both of them, I think,had a very good sense about some
things that needed to be done.
They're both progressives.
They're both in the, one ofcourse a Wilson progressive, the
other a Teddy Rooseveltprogressive.
But they're tremendouslyinfluenced by Woodrow Wilson's
internationalism.
And that's something that theydo share.
(05:52):
In fact, in 1919, Roosevelt,wrote a letter to the American
ambassador to Belgium suggestingthat Hoover would make a very
fine presidential candidate in1920.
It's interesting, too, that, howthings might have been different
had Hoover won the presidency in1920 rather than in 1928.
(06:14):
But Hoover saw the system as thesolution to problems.
He's very much an empiricist,very much a data guy.
And FDR is exactly the opposite.
He does not crush the system.
He does not pay any attention tothe hierarchy or chain of
command.
And while that causesdifficulties, he's perfectly
willing to bypass people inhigher positions and make
(06:36):
friends, and gather materialfrom people that he trusts.
It's interesting you say, youknow, both progressives.
That's, as I think the, um,Perhaps the less informed view
of Hoover would not think that,but it certainly was his
background.
And, again, something yourremarks remind me of is that
strain of Wilsonism that, thatgoes on,, after the Wilson
(06:58):
administration on, uh, if Irecall correctly, Richard Nixon
said one of his heroes wasWoodrow Wilson because of that
international approach, thatinternational perspective.
So, again, Uh, and often said topeople that, he thought, New
Jersey's schoolmaster wouldapprove of some of the things
(07:20):
that he had done, during thepresidency.
But later, I mean, Hoover's is aprogressive, up in say, into the
1920s.
Uh, but by the time he's apresident, he's moved to a more
traditional 19th century liberalposition.
A Republican moderate.
So we know that Hoover loses hisbid for re election as the
(07:41):
country's in the throes of theGreat Depression and FDR goes
into office.
So when war broke out in 1939 inEurope, where was Herbert Hoover
then?
And how had he been spending histime since that losing campaign
to FDR back in 32?
Well, after he lost, it wasvery, he probably, very few
(08:02):
people in American history havegone from the pillars Of success
that he had before thepresidency to becoming the, you
know, having the albatross ofthe depression around that.
that's a difficult thing for himto deal with.
But by say 1936, he's back inpolitics again.
And in one sense he's a kind ofler ahead of the Republican
(08:23):
party and as an ex-president, hehas a voice and he's adamantly
opposed to the new deal.
But by 1939.
He also becomes opposed toRoosevelt's foreign policy and
distrusts Roosevelt, as manyother people do, that after the
war breaks down, Roosevelt willlead us into that war.
(08:56):
Could or should be met?
You know, I think that'sinteresting.
I think one of the mostimportant things I found out
during the research is that ofcourse, 90%, over 90% of the
American people are opposed tointervention its own war, but
tremendous numbers of thosepeople, including both Roosevelt
and Hoover support building upthe American military.
(09:18):
Others do not, but Uber does.
His stipulations was trying todecide between offensive and
defensive weapons.
He was perfectly happy to sellany defensive weapons to any
country that needs it, in termsof reforming the neutrality
laws.
But FDR wanted to have an openhand, and that's their
disagreement about aid toEuropeans at the time.
(09:44):
I think many historians haveunderestimated the importance of
World War I in 1939.
Situation.
The, the war is alive and wellin people's memory.
And the horrors of the war, the10 million people killed on the
Eastern front.
Disappointment with the Treatyof Versailles, and reluctant to
(10:04):
be able to get involved againmilitarily.
Well, I think of course, thatHitler took advantage of that
with his own people, but also asyou look at England and France
and the other Western powers.
Not preparing, not being readyto take on the German threat
before war because of thatmemory.
Right.
That's interesting about, aboutthe German threat.
Threat too.
(10:24):
I, I think in 1939 the majorityof Americans, uh, cannot
conceive of the fact that Hitlercould, could defeat Great
Britain.
I see.
Yeah.
That's gonna change, of course,right?
You know, they're the greatpowers.
In the world.
And so, you know, Roosevelt'sstrategy of helping the British
and the French arming them.
first and then there being ourfirst line of defense while
(10:46):
building up our defense is aposition that is accepted by
tremendous numbers of Americans.
The fight is not really aboutintervention.
It's the, the fight is about howto stay out of the war.
So, we know at the verybeginning of the war in Europe,
(11:06):
as the Germans go into Poland,FDR reached out tentatively to
Hoover for assistance and reliefefforts in Poland.
So, why did FDR do that despitetheir differences, and how did
that effort die almostimmediately?
Well, we could spend some timeon this, but, after the
presidency, and the interregnum,between Roosevelt and Kennedy,
(11:29):
The Hoover administration, uh,in 1932 and 1933, there
developed between the two ofthem a kind of enmity.
So you're right, Occupy, whywould you reach out?
But a lot of it has to do withEleanor Roosevelt and influence
on her by a woman by the name ofMaria Maloney, who spoke to her,
(11:51):
a liberal Republican who spoketo her and said, you know, you
know about, uh, Hoover's greataccomplishments during the war.
You need to bring him in as awar foods administrator and get
her in charge of relief.
And Eleanor had alreadyrecognized that, and so she
pushes her husband to make anoffer to Hoover to come in to
the administration in charge ofrelief.
(12:13):
Actually in the negotiationsthat took place in September of
1939 between the two of them,Uh, Roosevelt really has no
interest in really bringing,Hoover into the administration.
And Hoover has no interest ingoing into the administration.
So in a way, they both get whatthey want.
Now, Hoover needs to know thatFDR made the effort.
(12:35):
And Hoover needs to know that,the proposals that he makes to,
uh, to, uh, Roosevelt on a Uh,will not be acceptable and they
can both go about their own way.
What Hoover really wanted, wasthe Red Cross to take up
feeding, as part of the reliefeffort.
And the Red Cross and theRoosevelt administration were
committed to a policy ofemergency aid only.
(12:58):
And that's the crux of theargument.
Hoover wants a feeding programthat's more long term.
And FDR and the Democrats do notwant to get involved.
And they think that Hoover'sideas really threaten them.
It could potentially threaten,uh, aid to Great Britain, and
France.
Sure, he does.
(13:20):
I mean, you know, I thinkbecause of Hoover's, and we'll
talk about this later withFinland as well, but because of,
Hoover's commitment to thePoles, which is a long one, he
was responsible during theTreaty of Versailles of pushing
Wilson hard to recognize Polandand during the, uh, as an
(13:43):
independent country.
And during the operations of theARA, uh, he ensured that Poland
had gotten a tremendous, amountof, aid.
So in some ways with bothFinland, and we'll talk about
that later and with Poland,Hoover and people associated
with Hoover and the Americanrelief And had a thumb in the
(14:04):
Polish pie for a long time.
So once the war starts onSeptember 1st, it's pretty
clear.
Uh, he's in California trying tohustle votes.
A non committed Californiadelegation for the coming,
Republican convention in 1940.
What, it's pretty clear thathe's going to attempt to do
something.
(14:24):
And then the person that's withhim at the time, um, an American
woman that had worked inBelgium, for all of those years,
pushes him hard, too, to go forPolish relief and to set an
organization up.
So, he, regardless of what FDRsays or doesn't do, which he's
not going to bend on policy,it's pretty clear that Hoover's
(14:44):
going to go ahead with aid.
And he does so.
And creating with a commissionfor college relief what shocks
fdr is how quick he can possiblydo it Because it's a private
organization And the money comesfrom money that was left over
from the belgian americaneducational fund when after
world war one They soldcommodities that they still had
(15:07):
when they disbanded the crb andbanked that money for
scholarships and aid for belgiumso in a way he has Money
available that he can get toquickly And two, the American
Relief Administration and theCRB have had reunions every year
since 1919 and 1923.
And he has what I call a kindof, uh, Minutemen of Relief.
(15:30):
People that, uh, means ofsuccess that he can call on
immediately, to volunteer for anaid program.
So that by the end of September1939, he's already a business
and he has already, He's alreadyable to transfer some money to
Poland and, and those folks, hehas on the ground there working
on the ground, not just inPoland, but in the, the
(15:53):
countries around where thoserefugees are streaming.
Is that right?
Yes.
Yes.
Well, of course, originally it'sthe people that served in the
CRB who are now quite successfulor served in the a RA, but on
the ground, it's recommended tohim by Maurice Pay, who
eventually became head ofunicef.
And was a relief worker in theara and Had worked closely with
(16:15):
hoover said, you know if we canget paul super if we can find
paul super who's head of theBullish ymca, we can probably
set up an organization morequickly in romania And be able
to render aid there's tens ofthousands of people coming
across the border that areracing across poland to escape
the The german onslaught that'spushing them into romanian
(16:38):
hunger So how did, how didHoover's people there in the CPR
work with the Germans?
How did the Germans view, howdid the Nazis view their efforts
within Poland?
Well, the efforts in Polanddon't take place for a while.
Not until later in the fall.
(16:59):
But of course the Germans are,unhappy about any aid for Poles
and would like to see Polandtotally disappear.
But of course, the Rooseveltadministration, approves of a
Polish government that'sattempting to re establish
itself in France.
Uh, and decides that agovernment does not have to be
(17:19):
on its original soil to be ableto represent a particular
country.
I see.
Part of that decision was basedon the fact that The, Serbian
army had been driven to Corfuduring World War I.
Um, and people continue torecognize it as the legitimate
government of Serbia.
So they found a historicalprecedent for it.
(17:40):
But the people that are workingon the ground in Romania
immediately are an amazing groupof people.
And it's, in fact, almost amiracle that leaving Warsaw some
with the diplomatic corps andothers with the, with the
welfare agency of the Polishgovernment made it across Poland
(18:01):
and were able to, to get anoperation quickly.
But, you know, super, I guess weshould say this.
The YMCA efforts in Europe afterWorld War I are incredible.
Some started a little bitearlier.
Uh, it is a kind ofecumenicalism that was produced
by Mott, who was the director ofthe YMCA at the time.
(18:23):
So YMCA's are established inmost of the East European, New
East European countries thatwere created by the Treaty of
Versailles.
The people that ran thoseorganizations, spoke the
languages, knew the country, uh,and have spent many, many years
there with many contacts.
So in Romania, the YMCA underJimmy Brown, and the YMCA then
(18:46):
that leaves Poland, And by theend of September 1939, they're
doing 1, 000 breakfasts, 2, 000lunches and 2, 500 dinners a
day.
Wow.
Wow.
Very impressive.
Uh, how did, how did FDR respondto the work of the CPR?
(19:10):
I know part of that is how didhe respond politically?
What did he think Hoover was upto?
Yeah, right.
Well, not well, Not well, youknow, I I think you know one of
the pieces of the book thatintrigued me by it that in all
the rules about Reconjurancyover the years over policy.
(19:30):
This is the only time thathoover gets a leg up on fdr
because Public response to thecpr and particularly against
polish americans, and of coursemost polish americans are
democrats So fdr sees this asboth a political threat and a
threat to his policy of limitedemergency aid but Because of the
(19:51):
popularity of the cpr hooverforces both the red cross And
fdr to do far more than theyever did Was hoover at that
point thinking about another runWell, he's always thinking about
it.
You know, Mrs.
(20:12):
POTUS, you know the disease.
He's definitely thinking aboutrunning again, and not so much
in 1936, but he really thinks hehas a chance in 1940.
And one of the reasons he doesis there's no airfare in the
Republican Party, and there'slots of newcomers in the party.
Robert Taft is not elected until1938.
(20:35):
Dewey is still a successfulattorney general, busting the
mafia in New York, and you know,Hoover, he's been the past
president, and so his strategyis to try to get as many
delegations uncommitted aspossible, then like William
Jennings Bryan giving a greatspeech at the 1940 convention,
and on the third or fourthballot he thinks he's gonna win.
(20:58):
Now, I understand that there's ahigh degree of fantasy involved.
But what happens of course is Idon't think his relief efforts
some people have suggested thathis Desire to be president again
and his relief efforts arecontradictory or that it's a
cynical effort on his part, butI don't think it is.
I mean, he's genuinely committedto both The polls and the fans
(21:20):
and he also wants to bepresident The problem is in
doing two things at the sametime over the winter of 39 40.
He spends way more time onrelief He does on politics.
And of course his strategy issimply that the relief efforts
will drive, you know, will drivehim towards the nomination in
summer 1940.
(21:40):
Of course they don't, but it'snot unrealistic to think about
that, because his campaign in1940 really starts in Poland.
Not in the united states, uh,it's it's his ability to
generate publicity from thatcampaign The problem is he has
trouble raising money.
The cpr relied on mostlydonations from the polish
(22:03):
american community and thepolish american community is
badly split between The simplestway to say it is between the
Chicago polls and the New Yorkpolls.
And the New York polls tend tobe very supportive of Hoover and
the CPR, and the Chicago polls,who are the bigger of the
national organizations, tend tolean toward the Red Cross.
(22:23):
But both split the differenceand give to both organizations.
Although the Red Cross, givenits tight policy, never runs a
national campaign to raise moneyfor either Poland or Finland.
You know, you, you reminded meof a question I had early on,
Hal, and I, I realize you justraised it again.
Hoover and his desire to help somany we saw in the World War I
(22:48):
machine right now as we'retalking about his efforts as
World War II breaks out.
What, what do you think you knowthe man you've done so much
research about Hoover.
Where did that come from?
What led him to have thatgenuine desire?
Aside from the political um,Maneuvers were to come from.
I think that's really a greatquestion.
I really do.
I think, a lot, I think this isone of the things, uh, well, let
(23:11):
me say this first, that youknow, he has a special affection
for children and a specialaffection for women.
You know, he's very adamantabout his commitment to the
Geneva Convention and to the twohate conventions that civilians
should not be attacked.
In war, and she, uh, the, haveneutral status.
(23:34):
But I think it comes from hisown childhood, where, he was
orphaned at an early age, andhis father died first.
And so, in some ways, he was,you know, he and his brother and
his sister were with a, anindependent, struggling woman.
And later, I think that, that,in his Quakerism, I think Yes.
(23:55):
I think part of EleanorRoosevelt's appreciation for
Hoover is not only his greatwork in World War I, but I think
her childhood was extremelydifficult as well.
So I think there's empathy therebetween the two of them about
their difficult upbringing.
Interesting.
I do think it's sincere on thatpart.
(24:16):
Yeah.
And then, of course, in WorldWar I.
Uh, he's on the front to seeexactly what happens.
What's happening in Belgium, andwhat's happening particularly to
women and children.
It's the same argument we've gotgoing with Gaza now, you know.
The women and children of Gazaare suffering.
(24:46):
providing arms.
Part of that's all wrapped up inthe Neutrality Act and the U.
S.
embargo provisions that are partof that.
FDR worked to obtain an end tothem.
Can you, can you perhaps justdescribe in general what those
embargo provisions were, how FDRfought them, and where Hoover
stood in that debate?
Sure.
The idea was, you know, that,you could, you could not,
(25:07):
export, the neutralitylegislation and it had an
embargo clause in it that youcould not Sell to any countries
that were at war And during the19th after it was solidified in
34 and 35 congress, uh fastedroosevelt signed it The crisis
that broke out particularly inchina and then with the italians
(25:29):
and ethiopia Demonstrated and infact american neutrality tended
to favor the aggressor Becausethe italians and the japanese
didn't need anything but thechinese and the ethiopians did
And so that brought that wholequestion up about what to do and
what could be done.
(25:50):
Amazingly, even some of thesenators that had opposed FDR,
the ones that are noted as thewild jackasses, uh, and that
includes Borah of Idaho, andthat includes Johnson of
California, and that includes V.
H.
Wheeler, who's a democrat, bythe way, of, uh, Montana.
And then, the North DakotaSenator, too.
(26:12):
Gerald Nye.
But, the problem is this.
That, that, they're not anecessary, the reason they
oppose the, uh, reformation, or,or changes in the embargo
legislation, is that they don'ttrust Roosevelt, and they think
it's only the first move.
So their attitude in 39 is, ifwe don't fight back, I'm going
to stop now and make a strongcase we won't have anything to
(26:35):
stand on later when FDR wants togo further down the road.
They're convinced that FDR wantsto support the British and the
French militarily and will getus involved in another war.
Which brings an interestingquestion.
You know, one of the, one of thewords I was most interested in
during the research wasisolation.
(26:55):
And isolation.
And of course it's a pejorativeand one that Roosevelt used
effectively, and the argumentstook place, in the Congress in
1939.
And then later too, and a wordthat we use a lot today, and I
finally decided there are no,there really are no
isolationists in 1939.
(27:15):
There are just antiinterventionists that are
fighting like mad about what'sthe best way to keep us out of
war.
Interesting.
But that pejorative is stillused today amazingly, and it's
very effective.
But ask yourself, what is it?
I mean, what does it reallymean?
And so lots of people like theFour Wild Jackasses were not
(27:36):
opposed to all kinds of otherinternational organizations, uh,
or E.
And what they were opposed towas simply going to war The cry
for most of Americans in 1939.
And I think this is based on theexperience of World War I, is
never again we're not going todo this.
(28:03):
Is in finland where the sovietsinvade in november.
I was in finland last year Myfirst time there in helsinki in
vanta and that war seems to bevery much still on their minds
Especially with the aggressivemoves recently of russia so how
did fd?
Yeah, how did fdr and theamerican government respond to
(28:23):
that invasion of finland innovember of 39?
Well the rooseveltadministration, I mean Basically
The, the Rooseveltadministration debates both with
Poland and Hitler and, withStalin, and the Russians about
how far they want to go.
And basically it's writingletters or making strong stands
(28:44):
about, about their actions.
They had no intention of takingany real action to prevent it.
I think what they hoped bothwith Poland and with Finland is
they would be very quickepisodes that would disappear
and they could stay tuned totheir policy of aiding Great
Britain and France and not getdistracted.
I think they're afraid that eventhat both Poland and Finland can
(29:06):
become a backdoor to war.
Of course, Uber is pushing forlong term aid to Poland, long
term feeding aid to Finland, Uh,to Finland and later in the
spring long term feeding aid to,after the conquest, the
Hitlerian conquest, to Hollandand Belgium as well.
That's the heart of theconflict.
Like, the Rooseveltadministration,, said to the
(29:28):
Russians, please don't doanything you'll accept, uh, that
will compromise Finnishneutrality, whatever.
Uh, but, uh, Once the warstarts, they're on the hook
again to be able to help aid theFinns.
Because Hoover moves immediatelyto aid the Finns.
And there again, he wasoriginally, he was very
(29:51):
important in his secretary inWorld War I in gaining Finnish
independence at the end of thewar.
And in fact, the Strauss Uh, wholater became head of the Atomic
Energy Commission, was hissecretary.
And he had held post aid, whowas the foreign minister of
Finland, with money andeverything else to be able to
get their independence.
(30:11):
So there's no doubt Hoover'sgonna go to the aid of Finland.
And of course, because of whathappened with the CRB, the Red
Cross knows they have to get inthere quick.
Uh, and Norman Davis, who's headof the Red Cross, has done an
amazing job.
The telegram to uber boastingthat the red cross had beat Uh
(30:32):
uber to with supplies to helpBut the same thing's going to
happen again.
The only difference here uber'sgoing to take a different tack
He the crb was underfunded andhe couldn't raise enough money.
So uber decides he's going to doa nationwide campaign and enlist
as many people as he possiblycan And of course the finnish
(30:53):
cause is way more popular thanthe bullish cause and partially
because Americans knew basicallyfour things about finland that
it was far north and cold Thatthey had great track stars and
great runners in the late 1930sAnd that they had repaid their
national debt to the unitedstates.
The only country that did soafter world war one So that and
(31:16):
because the fins hold out Andthis is not fdr would prefer
that I think they not pulled outthat the war would end quickly
the pressure rises for more andmore aid from finland And so
hoover's nationwide campaign istied to newspapers.
He asked american newspapers torun ads and collect money for
(31:37):
finland, and then Submitteddirectly to the finnish relief
fund and that immediately makesit a nationwide campaign And for
the first time, he makes, uh,overtures to Hollywood stars.
And ends up having several dozenof them that campaigned
nationally for Phineas Ridley.
(31:57):
You like the picture in the bookof Popeye making it?
That was terrific.
He got everyone involved.
He did, got everyone involved,and of course, this is political
pressure again.
So, there's always two aspectsof it.
There's the humanitarian aspect,and both the Roosevelt
administration and Hoover aregenuine about that.
(32:19):
Uh, and then there's thepolitical aspect of it.
Uh, a historian friend of mine,who I don't think is right about
this, thinks that, FDR is reallyafraid of running against Hoover
And I don't think so.
I think he would be delighted torun it.
Yeah.
I tend to agree with you onthat.
(32:40):
I, I know FDR though did takeefforts to smear this campaign
for Finland.
What were some of the ways he,he tried to fight this Finish
Relief fund work by Hoover?
Yeah.
I mean that too is the same kindof story.
they tried to make it look likeit was illegitimate or mostly
just politics on the part.
(33:03):
But they were unsuccessful indoing that.
What happened is that, in fact,millions of Americans made small
donations to the Finnish ReliefFund.
But again, like with Poland,there weren't any big donors.
And so, both, by February of1940, both the CPR and the FRI
are beginning to run out ofmoney.
(33:24):
And so Hoover actually loans theFinnish Relief Fund a nice hunk
of change.
To be able to keep it going andhe goes to Washington when FDR
is out of town.
It's interesting to get theFDR's calendar and to go to
Washington so he wouldn't haveto meet with the president.
He went through Cordell Hall.
(33:47):
Cordell Hall let him know whenit would be okay to be able to
come to Washington, avoidRoosevelt, and then make a pitch
to the Congress about how muchmoney needed to be appropriated
for.
Foreign a generally withearmarks for both, for both
Poland and for Finland.
But then the whole situationbegins to change, as you know,
(34:07):
quite radically in March of1940, when, very quickly in
March and April, uh, the Germansin Bay Market, I wondered, you
talked about Hoover.
Yeah, he does not want to dothat, uh, but there's real
(34:33):
pressure for him to do that.
And there are several otherorganizations that began to
compete for funds.
And one of them is FightingFunds for Finland, which is
raising money.
You could buy anything from abullet, and swallow for a
dollar.
Or you could buy an airplane ifyou wanted to.
And, you know, there are peoplealso volunteering to go fight
(34:54):
for Finland.
Some people, some of thevolunteers that were raised
through the Finnish embassy, thepeople argued we missed our
chance for the Spanish CivilWar, and now we'll get our
chance, in Finland.
So there were volunteers leavingfrom America.
A couple thousand of themeventually that did go to
Finland.
Uh, and at the same time, FDR isunder pressure as well, but
(35:20):
wait, the question was whyHoover changed his mind about
it, but I think because of thecompeting organizations.
What he really did is say, ifyou make donations to the
Finnish Relief Fund and specifythat it's for, arms and
ammunition, I'll turn that moneyover to the other organizations.
So it's a kind of halfway stepto do that.
And then Roosevelt's on the hooktoo, to the bins.
(35:42):
And he actually, illegally,takes some fighter aircraft, the
Buffalo Brewsters that belongedto the Navy at the, at the time
they frontline fighters.
But even a year later, they'rebasically because of the huge,
increase in fighter production.
But anyway, he decommissionsthem and has them flown, by,
(36:05):
mostly by, people who worked forthe Grumman Corporation to
Iceland, and then Finnish pilotsand Swedish pilots pick them up
and fly them on to, uh, fly themon to Finland.
So, there's, you know, theRoosevelt administration, too,
is under real pressure to makedirect cash contributions, which
the Red Cross does not want.
(36:27):
Which fdr does not want to doand in both cases they were lame
They make cash contributions tothe league of red cross
societies that then disperse itto either the red cross in
hungary or romania Or release itto the finnish red cross They do
some other deals that are reallyinteresting too that are kind of
like the contra deals that thereagan administration did The
(36:51):
Finns would like to have a 10million loan.
And the U.
S.
said we'd be happy to give thatif you buy agricultural
commodities.
Well, you know, the Finns arenot interested in agricultural
commodities.
Uh, what they want are arms andammunition.
So what happens is, the 10million, uh, worth of, of
(37:12):
commodities are put on theexchange, the wanted exchange.
Um, and the Swedes buy the 10million worth of commodities,
and they turn the 10 millioncash over to the Finns and then
order arms and ammunition.
The FDR administration did thesame thing with John Kai Schack,
but FDR, about November of 1940says, you know, I think this is
(37:36):
risky business, we ought not todo that.
And they decide that that'sgoing to be the last time that
happens.
You mentioned earlier the, uh,the Blitzkrieg into the Low
Countries and into France.
What did Hoover and his, and hisorganizations do there?
And how far into the war effortdid that continue?
Is that a continuous thing ordid it come to an end at some
(37:58):
point?
That's a great question, Alan.
You know, I think the, uh, youknow, I call the period, the
period from the conquest ofPoland in early October to Until
the following spring when thewar starts I call that period
waiting for hitler Nobody knowswhat he's going to do in
october.
He's putting out kind of peacefeelers and that sort of thing
(38:20):
and I might say you asked methis question earlier and uh, we
hadn't gotten to it yet But it'slater in the fall that hoover
decides he's not going to justaid the refugees in lithuania
And hungary and in romania.
He wants to get aid directly YouInto the new german, you know,
the germans took poland andcarved it down Into a very small
(38:43):
area called the governmentgeneral and hoover wants to get
aid in there and he beginsnegotiations in november
december and he finally getspermission to be able to do some
aid there in february And thequestion is why would the
germans do that particularlybecause hoover would make the
aid mandatory the jews could Uh,as well as Gentiles in Poland.
(39:04):
And why would Hitler agree tothat?
Well, as part of those post,Polish invasion, efforts to make
themselves look more reasonableas a type of PR factor, and the
reasoning was they thought thateventually it would make no
difference anyway whether theyfed Jews or not because they had
control of them and could dowhat they wanted.
(39:25):
So, in fact, Hoover does get aidinto the government, and that
aid to Poland continues into1941 and early 1942.
And then just after America goesto War of Germany, it all comes
to Mm-Hmm, So in the end, howwould you characterize the, the
success or lack of success ofHoover's relief efforts?
(39:48):
Well, I, the reason I pickedthis up is, you know, I, he had
ignored this story.
Uh, the more I researched, themore I found out, it's not only
that, that he was able to, youknow, get one off on Franklin
Roosevelt, it's hard for me toknow how much he really
appreciated that.
That that was gonna be his onlyvictory because, in the fall of
(40:12):
1940, in November, he starts, anew relief.
Food committee, and pushes forit for the next two or three
years, but it never goesanywhere So the victory that he
has is between september of 1939and 1940 but regardless of The
politics involved what ended upbeing done for the polish
(40:33):
refugees and for some people inthe government general and for
the feds is amazing It would behard to know how the hundreds of
thousands of people that pouredout of Poland, it's sort of a
diaspora of Poland, how muchworse they would have fared if
they didn't have access to food,lodging, travel, whatever,
(40:54):
medical attention in all threecountries.
And traditionally I had readthat most of the refugees
escaped.
And of course, that's not true.
At first, tremendous numbersescaped, but then the Germans
and the Russians put more andmore heat on both the
Lithuanians and on theHungarians and the Romanians to
(41:14):
be able to intern those soldiersand put them in camps.
And several tens of thousands ofthem in all three countries end
up going to camps.
Most of them don't fare thatwell.
And that's one thing I certainlymeant to stress a bit more
earlier.
Of course, we know as the Naziswent into Poland, so did the
Soviets.
Yes, they did.
(41:34):
The Soviets got the bigger hunk.
So, you know, that's why I did awhole chapter in the book on the
Russo, Nazi pact, because it'sso important to how things take
place.
Yeah.
Uh, this, this morning, formerambassador to Poland, Victor
Ash, spoke at a group, Iattended this morning, uh,
Victor's an old friend.
He was, ambassador to Poland,for George W.
Bush.
(41:54):
And, talked a little bit aboutthis history to the group.
But really sad history ofPoland, hopefully now on a
better track.
How Will you give him a copy ofmy book?
Oh, I most definitely will.
I most definitely will.
I think he might enjoy it.
Oh, he would.
He would.
I was, uh, very fortunate whenhe was ambassador to be able to
go to Warsaw and spend a coupledays with, with the ambassador
and his wife there at theresidence.
(42:14):
It's really, Learned a lot aboutthe country.
He learned a lot about thecountry and was a great
ambassador, I think, so I willdefinitely get him a copy of
your book.
You know, I thought one of the,I really enjoyed doing the
research in Lithuania andHungary, Romania, and Poland
itself.
I think the pictures and thecolor, uh, the color section of
(42:38):
the book really add to it.
Oh, it does.
It does.
It's really, really well done.
How, I always ask this question,uh, what's next?
Are you working on anythingright now?
Well, you know i've done twoposter books and I have the
material to do a basically do aposter book on the relief
posters Of world war time and Iwould probably should do that
(43:00):
But i'm also interested in someother topics I served in an army
security agency as a Lowcryptography and mostly traffic
analysis And there's no, I don'tknow that there'd be enough
unclassified material, butthere's almost nothing on my
(43:21):
unit.
I thought it might be fun to seewhat I could find out that might
be disclassified and find outabout what my unit, because you
know, it has always been, youknow, no such agency, it's hard
to get material.
Yes, that's right.
That's right.
Well, you know, there's thingsI'd like to, there's all kinds
(43:41):
of things I'd like to know, but,uh, one of the new books that
came out by, Jacobson, I thinkthe woman is that does the good
books on this.
Oh, yes, Annie, Annie Jacobson,I believe.
Yeah, yeah, she did a greatbook.
One of the things I wanted toknow in there, we would
occasionally, in trafficanalysis, we'd pick up code
words.
And I know what those code wordsare, but I can't tell you.
(44:05):
But anyway, well, I reallyshouldn't.
But anyway, I wondered what Amyhad to say about those.
Could there be any correlationbetween what I knew from, you
know, the NSA was.
What can you glean from thetraffic?
So what we glean from, but thepoint is this.
We'd send those code words inour ComSec reports to Dern's and
Director of National SecurityAgency.
(44:27):
And we'd get back at Telex thatsaid, leave it alone, it's a
higher classification.
Well, of course, that whettedour appetite.
But we couldn't keep monitoring,you know.
So anyway, Amy did sort ofconfirm for me what I think a
couple of the code words reallymeant, because, you know, she
(44:47):
was dealing with that classifiedmaterial.
16 and 63 or so, but I very muchenjoyed her book.
Well, it's a complicated topic,and I hope I made it more
(45:10):
understandable, and maybe thiswill get a few more people to
read the book.
I'm so glad you appreciate it.
Consider supporting our work.
We are a 501 c3 non profit.
So this is Alan Lowe sayingthank you and join us again soon
(45:33):
and often on American POTUS.
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