August 30, 2024 • 40 mins
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alan-lowe---american-po (00:00):
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe.
You know, I'm so proud of whatAmerican POTUS has been able to
accomplish these past few years.
And it's all thanks to you, ourlisteners.
Please make sure you check outAmericanPOTUS.
org and consider supporting ourwork.
We are a 501 C3 nonprofitdedicated to education and to
elevating a civil discussion ofthe presidency and the
(00:22):
presidents.
Our guest on this episode is avery good friend from many years
back, Mark Updegrove.
Mark currently serves as the CEOand president of the LBJ
Foundation in Austin, Texas, andas the presidential historian
for ABC News.
Prior to that, he served asdirector of the LBJ Presidential
Library Museum, as publisher ofNewsweek Magazine, and president
(00:44):
of Time Magazine's Canadianedition.
Mark has been widely published,and is the author of many great
books, including, among others,The last Republicans inside the
extraordinary relationshipbetween George H.
W.
Bush and George W.
Bush and the subject of his lastappearance on American POTUS.
Indomitable will LBJ in thepresidency.
(01:05):
Now today we're moving from thatindomitable will to Mark's book,
incomparable grace, JFK in thepresidency.
Mark, my friend, welcome back toAmerican POTUS.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (01:16):
Good to be with you, Alan.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (01:17):
You know, you start this book and
we're going to have a greatconversation today about this,
but I want to start where youstart this amazing meeting
between president Eisenhower andpresident elect Kennedy as he's
coming into office for apresidential junkie like me.
That was a an amazing scene tothink about being a fly in the
wall at that meeting.
What did they discuss?
(01:38):
How did they get along?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (01:40):
Well, not very well.
The amazing thing, Alan, is, asyou know from reading the book,
these guys had only met eachother once it was in World War
II.
And what makes that amazing isthe fact that John F.
Kennedy had sat in the U.
S.
Senate For eight years and priorto that in the house of
(02:00):
representatives for six yearsand he had never met dwight
eisenhower, so the entirety ofOf, Eisenhower's presidency, uh,
JFK was, a senator fromMassachusetts, and yet, they had
never met until they had met in,in Potsdam during the war, uh,
when JFK was discharged from theNavy, he became a reporter for
(02:24):
Hearst Newspapers, and they hadmet in Very, very briefly,
Eisenhower didn't remember it,of course, JFK did since he was
talking to the Supreme Commanderof the Allied Forces.
But here they come together inthe Oval Office, Eisenhower had
considered Nixon's defeat in the1960, election, a repudiation of
his presidency, so he was nonetoo pleased with the outcome.
(02:47):
He thought that Kennedy wasgoing to undo everything he did.
And so it, it started outsomewhat.
Tense, uh, it was a relativelybrief meeting.
The two did not think highly ofone another eisenhower called
JFK little boy blue and JFKcalled Eisenhower that old
asshole, which is naval termsfor the brass.
(03:10):
You know, when you looked atthe, those in command, they were
the, the assholes.
So it was, it was not a happyand harmonious relationship.
But they had a very civildiscussion about the state of
the world.
And interestingly, uh, after JFKemerged from the meeting and he
was going back out of the, thewhite house through the big
(03:30):
black iron gates, he said, Idon't know how he can stare in
the face of disaster with suchequanimity.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (03:39):
You know, I know during the campaign
there was much back and forthabout Missile gaps and all that
but i'm curious as to Why duringkennedy's whole time in the
house in the senate there hadn'tbeen more of a connection.
Is that political?
Reasons or, or others, what wasthe reason for that lack of
connection during that time?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (03:56):
I think it's the fact that Kennedy was
relatively disengaged.
He was a backbencher in theSenate.
He didn't do much in the Houseof Representatives, but he
emerged very strongly on theAmerican scene as a presidential
candidate in 1960, and to somedegree before that in 1956 at
the Democratic NationalConvention where, he vied for,
the second spot on the ticket asthe Democrats vice presidential
(04:20):
nominee, but he really didn't doa lot.
So.
It's not surprising,tremendously surprising if you
know Kennedy's record that heand Eisenhower didn't come
together.
But still you think about thisit's absolutely remarkable in
many respects.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (04:35):
It is, you know, I think we've had
this discussion before I grew upin a household.
I think I mentioned on AmericanPOTUS before I grew up in a
household that kind of reveredJFK.
I grew up hearing about JFKparticularly from my mother who
campaigned for him throughoutthe state of Kentucky.
And one thing we didn't know asmuch about back then, we've
learned in the ensuing years itwas about all the illnesses he
(04:57):
fought throughout his youth andduring the presidency.
I'm curious to hear yourthoughts as you research this
book about, the fact that hekept those secret from the
American people.
How did that affect youranalysis of him and of his
presidency?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (05:13):
The that he kept these things quiet
was a political necessity.
There's no way he could haverevealed to the American public
that he had Addison's diseaseand, a viable candidate for the
presidency of the United States.
He denied it steadfastly rightthrough convention in Los
Angeles that would anoint him asthe presidential nominee of the
party.
(05:33):
But that's what it was.
I mean, they simply could notdisclose that because it would
adversely affect his ability toascend to the presidency.
Uh, to become the, the standardbearer, but the illnesses that
he had throughout his life,which we're talking about a
moment ago, Alan, that informs.
JFK's life to a large extent.
(05:53):
He wanted to get everything hecould out of life, get
everything that was possible.
And I think that explains a lot.
He had this premonition that hewould die.
and he did
alan-lowe---american-po (06:05):
Mm-Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (06:06):
at his childhood illnesses where he
nearly escaped death and ofcourse his experience on pt109
in world war ii, I mean, this isa somebody who understood death
intimately not only because ofhis, calls with death, but
because so many in his familyhad died.
alan-lowe---american-po (06:25):
Mm-Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (06:25):
He saw the fragility of life.
I think that, again, thatinforms the way he led his life
and it informs the policies thathe advocated as President of the
United States.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (06:37):
You know, one of the amazing scenes
from American political historythat always harken back to when
I hear about JFK's illnesses, Idunno if he was in the house or
the Senate where he was so ill.
And, uh, the scene was RichardNixon visiting him in the
hospital room and, and weeping,if I remember correctly, or
being very distraught over thethe state of his friend, JFK.
And, of course, we know latertheir, their tremendous rivalry.
(07:00):
So JFK, when he ascends to thepresidency, chooses Bobby, his
brother, to be attorney general.
Was that as controversial thenas it probably would be now?
And why did he make that choice?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (07:15):
Was it as controversial?
Yeah, it was controversial, butit quickly passed.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1_ (07:19):
I see.
When
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (07:23):
as much as any family that ever existed,
blood was thicker than water.
Uh, Joseph Kennedy told hisfamily this all the time, and
there was almost like thisculture within the Kennedy
family.
part of that had to do withthere being Irish aspiring at
the same time at a time whenIrish Catholics were
discriminated against roundly inAmerican society.
(07:45):
So part of it was that and, andthe fact that they aspired to
something so much greater.
But the Kennedys were thick asthieves, as my mother might've
said.
They were really clannish.
They were really close.
Bobby Kennedy and his brotherwere not particularly close for
a long time.
There was about eight years thatseparated the two.
(08:07):
And so they kind of grew up indifferent phases of the Kennedy
family.
you know, Kennedy proved himselfto his brother his brother's
first campaign for the House ofRepresentatives in 1946.
and he became almost like ahatchet man.
He outworked everybody on thestaff.
(08:28):
And not only proved himself tohis brother, but to the other
members of the family.
And he became instrumental toJohn F.
Kennedy's ascent through thepolitical ranks.
in, when he vied for a Senateseat in 1952, there was Bobby
running his campaign.
And of course, when JFK ran forthe presidency in 1960, Bobby
(08:49):
Kennedy was once again hismanager.
Bobby Kennedy would have walkedacross a broken glass through a
wall for his brother, and thatmattered a lot when you were as
ambitious as the Kennedy familywas in general and J.
F.
K.
Was specifically
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (09:08):
you look at those two men, were they
similar in their personalitiesor were they Maybe.
different in ways thatcomplement each other.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (09:17):
they were totally different, but they
were simpatico.
As you're alluding to, uh, in,in some respects, they rounded
each other out, but no, totallydifferent people.
Bobby was really, uh, sort of adour personality.
He worked hard.
But he didn't have the panachedidn't have the charisma.
He'd have the good looks and thecharm of his brother.
His brother sort of skatedthrough life, despite the, all
(09:38):
the adversity faced,particularly on the health
front.
He was a buoyant, he was.
He was witty he was charming andbeguiling.
His brother simply did not havethat, but what his brother did
have is a killer instinct.
And that certainly when you wereas politically ambitious as the
(09:58):
Kennedys were.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (10:00):
You mentioned the 46 campaign,
right?
Is that the right year?
The first campaign for thehouse.
Remember, uh, years ago, I'msure you met him, when I started
at the office of presidentiallibraries at the national
archives.
First went to the Kennedylibrary.
Dave powers was the curator thenat the library who have worked
on that campaign.
They became a close friend ofJFK there on.
And I knew Dave when he wasolder and let me sit in JFK's
(10:22):
rocking chair, which heshouldn't have done,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:23):
Oh, wow.
That's cool.
alan-lowe---american-potus (10:25):
but,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:25):
good.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (10:26):
uh,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:26):
Powers was his buddy from the Navy.
alan-lowe---american-potu (10:28):
Yeah,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:29):
course, uh, went to the White House
when, when Jack became presidentand they remained bosom buddies,
but man, the fact that you gotto sit in JFK's rocking
alan-lowe---american-potu (10:38):
yeah.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:38):
cool.
alan-lowe---american-potus (10:39):
Now, I no longer work for NARA, so
they can't fire me over that.
Uh, uh,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:43):
I am going to send them a memo, Alan.
alan-lowe---american-pot (10:45):
please do, please do.
I know Dave's book, Johnny, WeHardly Knew You,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:50):
I hardly
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (10:50):
in the Canada, is a very good book.
Not taking away, of course, fromIncomparable Grace.
So, um, Uh, so JFK gets inoffice and you really show this
very well, the many challengeshe had immediately.
I mean, this was not an easystart to his presidency.
And of course, chief among thosewas the disaster at the Bay of
(11:12):
Pigs.
Why in the world did he give thegreen light to that invasion,
looking back on it, of course,we have hindsight, but why in
the world did he think thatwould be successful?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (11:20):
Well, it goes back to your first
question, Alan, which is thattransition meeting between the
outgoing President DwightEisenhower and the incoming
President John F.
Kennedy.
Eisenhower had recommended heimplement that program, that
operation.
And, I think that JFK was,that's not to say that he would
have done that Eisenhower wouldhave done so under the same
(11:40):
circumstances, you might haveasked additional questions or
poked holes in order.
We don't know.
That's a counterfactual that wedon't know the answer, but he
did advocate this operation,generally speaking in that
meeting.
so John F.
Kennedy looked at it veryseriously when he became
president.
And we Ultimately, Green lit itto his detriment, and it was
(12:02):
detrimental not only because ofthe damage that it did on an
immediate term basis, butbecause the Russians were
watching John F.
Kennedy very carefully andNikita Khrushchev, his
counterpart, The premier of theSoviet Union saw Kennedy as
being callow, as beinginexperienced, out of his depths
(12:22):
in the presidency.
And this just reinforced thatimpression and emboldened
Khrushchev.
And of course, a year and a halflater, you get the Cuban Missile
Crisis, I think as a directconsequence the disaster that
was the Bay of Pigs.
alan-lowe---american-potus (12:36):
Now, I was curious, Mark, when I was
reading your book, I wasreminded, and tell me if I'm
wrong, that as the operation wasplanned, JFK cut back the number
of planes would not cuttingthose back have had any impact
or was it felt doomed from thestart?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (12:49):
I think more air cover would have
helped, Alan.
It would have helped mitigatethe disaster, but it would have
been a disaster nonetheless.
It
alan-lowe---american-po (12:57):
Mm-Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (12:57):
were a lot of assumptions that the CIA,
which had concocted this plan,had made that did not come to
fruition, among which was thatthe Cuban population rally
around this effort because theyhad been liberated and anything
but that they, they had falleninto line under the leadership
of Fidel Castro, who at thatpoint had firmly established
(13:20):
himself.
As the dictator for Cuba.
So there were a lot ofassumptions that were made that
were ill founded.
And I think JFK reluctantlygreenlit the operation and
again, did so to his politicaldetriment.
alan-lowe---american-po (13:34):
Mm-Hmm.
Let, let's step back to domesticpolicy for a minute.
And so many of these questions,mark, as I, I prepared them for
today.
You realize they're almost whatif questions, you know, if he,
if he had lived to serve out theterm, serve another term, what
would he have done?
Which I know is unfair to you,but, but we're looking at JFK
(13:54):
stance on civil rights in thetime he was in office.
What were his priorities thereand how did he respond to.
This horrific incidents that youdetail in Mississippi and
Alabama.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (14:05):
It's a mixed record.
So when JFK comes into office, Ithink the overriding, the
biggest crisis was around theCold War, which was, of course,
the dominant geopolitical issueof its time, the world was
bifurcated, either you're withSoviet Union or you're with the
United States of America.
And so we were enmeshed in this,this death struggle with the
(14:26):
USSR.
And so JFK's priority, waskeeping Cold War tensions at bay
and, trying to win hearts andminds in the battle with the
Soviet Union, around ideologicaldifferences.
so when the civil rightsactivists were exposing the very
worst of racial tyranny andoppression, the Kennedys took
(14:49):
exception to that.
They thought That they were, byexposing the nation to that,
they were also showing the worldthat we were not the superior
system.
And so they were trying to tampdown the efforts of those like,
Martin Luther King and JohnLewis and others who were on the
front lines.
Of the civil rights movement,trying to generate awareness
(15:10):
about these things.
So, so much so that when thefreedom riders that included
John Lewis were, desegregating,uh, bus lines down in the South
and the Southern United States.
Uh, you know, Kennedy wascalling them almost traitors for
doing that saying that hisbrother was about to go to
(15:31):
Europe to have a series ofmeetings, including a summit
with Nikita Khrushchev with mudon his shoes as a consequence of
them showing the worst Of thisracial oppression
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (15:45):
No, uh, years ago when I was
director at the Howard Bakercenter, John Siegenthaler was on
our board and John, formerlyNashville, Tennessean was then
with Bobby Kennedy and was sentdown with the freedom riders and
a beaten unconscious by theclan., so John, an amazing man,
uh, many stories and sadly he'spassed away now, but many
stories from those days.
With Bobby Kennedy and then withthe Freedom Riders.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (16:07):
left at the curb bloodied
alan-lowe---american-potus (16:10):
Yes,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (16:10):
to be dead I mean it is an astounding
story He was actually brutallybeaten and was working for the
federal government at the time.
That's how bold Racial, uhaggression was in the deep
south.
alan-lowe---american-potus (16:24):
John had that metal pole displayed
outside his office when he wentto his office in Nashville.
Our friend Bill Vanden Heuvel Ithink also worked for Bobby
Kennedy if I remember correctly.
So, let's step for a moment toJacqueline Kennedy.
How would you characterize theirrelationship during the
presidency?
(16:44):
We've all heard so many stories.
Yes.
Uh, about the relationshipduring the time of the
presidency, how would youcharacterize their relationship?
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (16:54):
we know all know about the philandering
of You of JFK, after they gotmarried in 1953.
I mean, he really led life stilllargely as a single man.
As, did his father and hisbrother, Ted, and to a lesser
extent, I think Bobby Kennedy.
But, uh, But, I think thatparticularly after the Cuban
(17:15):
Missile Crisis or during theCuban Missile Crisis, two became
exceptionally close.
insisted that she and herchildren go to the White House
despite JFK's advice not to doso, to leave, not to be near
Washington in the event thatthere was a nuclear exchange
(17:35):
with the Soviet Union.
And, and she said, if we'regoing to die we're going to die
together.
We're going to be all betogether.
And she was with him night andday throughout the bulk of those
13 crucial and excruciating daysin American history, the closest
that we have ever come nuclearHolocaust and perhaps the most
(17:58):
dangerous moment in the historyof the world.
alan-lowe---american-potus (18:00):
Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (18:02):
of what was at stake at that time, and I
think after that, uh, in 1963,they lost a child, their fourth
child, Jackie, gave birth toPatrick, their second son, who
died two days later.
And I think that deepened therelationship as well.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (18:23):
So let's turn from that
relationship and, also the neardeath of the world, at the Cuban
missile crisis to somethingloftier, but still part of the
cold war.
And that was the race to themoon.
My day job now, Mark, as youknow, is in Oak Ridge,
Tennessee, I head up theAmerican museum of science and
energy.
And we talk a lot about thespace race and space in general.
(18:47):
What do you think led Kennedy tokind of fully embrace getting to
the moon first?
In the face of some pushback,and you know this really well in
the book, pushback from NASA andothers,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (18:56):
Well, you just said it.
It was the Cold War, right?
We look back very romanticallyat the, the space race and, look
at America pioneering space asbeing almost like Manifest
Destiny.
You know, the, this reflectingour adventurous spirit as a
people.
And certainly that was part ofit, but a minimal part of it.
(19:18):
Most of it drawn through fear.
1957 when the Russians launchedSputnik, the first spacecraft,
that sent tremors of fearthroughout politicians and
American citizens in general,about the Soviet's domination of
space.
And so our capabilities toexplore space evolved, it became
(19:43):
almost an inevitability that wewould try to land human beings
on the face of the moon.
And that became the space race.
And we wanted to show the worldour technological superiority.
so this is very much born outof, the, the Cold War and our
desire.
(20:04):
To show the world the best ofwhat we had technologically and
to ensure that the Soviets wouldnot dominate space, where they
could potentially launch aweapon and have a greater
advantage militarily.
alan-lowe---american-potu (20:18):
truly an amazing call to action that
many people I'm, I'm learningthought there was no way in heck
we were going to be able toaccomplish that, but accomplish
it.
We did, you know, me, Mark, Ihop around, I'm going to hop
back real quick to the Cubanmissile crisis as, as much as I
know, we want to get aroundthat, but, uh, you know, in, in
the ensuing years after themissile crisis, thank God was
(20:39):
resolved.
We've learned that PresidentKennedy agreed to withdraw
American missiles from Turkeyand I remember correctly from
Italy if the Soviets did thesame in Cuba.
So do you see the resolution ofthe missile crisis still as a
success for the President and Iguess for the U.
S.
or is it now a different picturenow that we've learned there was
(20:59):
a back and forth compromiseinvolved?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (21:02):
A huge success, Alan, because
ultimately.
The Soviet Union relented,
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (21:08):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (21:08):
we averted nuclear holocaust as I
mentioned earlier, but, but youmake a really good point.
What we didn't realize untilwell after the Cuban missile
crisis is it was not the otherside blinking.
It was a quid pro quo, and itwas a great deal for, I mean,
and let me talk about the quidpro quo for a second.
(21:29):
Uh, just as The Soviet Union wasessentially putting nuclear
weaponry in the WesternHemisphere, which changed the
dynamic of the Cold War.
We had put missiles in Europe,and as you pointed out, in
Turkey and in Italy, which issort of the backyard of the
Soviet Union.
So they were really close.
(21:49):
It happened to be that they wereoutdated, We were going to pull
those missiles anyway, theSoviet Union didn't know that
and they didn't know how potentthose those missiles were.
So it was a great deal that weultimately struck, but it was
not a matter of us.
Laying down the gauntlet and theSoviet Union backing down, it
(22:11):
was a back channel negotiationthat resulted in both of us
pulling nuclear weapons from,places that were very close to
the homelands.
of the Soviet Union and, uh, theUnited States of America.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (22:25):
And going back to what you said
earlier, it was still a veryaudacious move by Khrushchev.
It was based, you believe, onhis perception of weakness in
Kennedy to go ahead and putthese missiles there in Cuba.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (22:37):
There's no question about it.
I mean, the Soviet Union didn'tdo anything even remotely like
that during the Eisenhoweryears.
They had high regard forEisenhower, and what he had done
in World War II, and I thinkthere was a little bit of fear
there.
And they saw this young, callowleader who was, as I mentioned
(22:57):
earlier, not up to the task ofbeing president of the United
States.
And, we might mention, Alan,that Nikita Khrushchev had an
opportunity to size up Kennedyin what was a disastrous summit
in Vienna in 1961, just a fewmonths into JFK's presidency.
(23:17):
And after the Bay of Pigsdisaster that we spoke about
earlier.
So he's looking at this youngguy, the youngest president,,
elect in the history of theUnited States.
And he's thinking I, I've got itall over this kid.
And he took advantage of that bymaking that stand in Cuba and
John F.
Kennedy realized if I don't takea stand myself, if we don't beat
(23:39):
this back, this threat, Thenwe're sunk and that it'll just
further embolden the sovietunion And so it ended up
working.
Well, and I should mention atthe conclusion of the cuban
missile crisis Kennedy who hadhad a black eye after the Bay of
Pigs fiasco stood on stage nonparole.
(23:59):
I mean, he was the leader in theworld, the, the dominant leader
in the world.
There was a prestige that heemanated that no leader could
even closely approximate.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (24:11):
Did that affect the Soviet view of
him?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (24:13):
Yeah, I think Khrushchev gained respect
for Kennedy, but we shouldmention that.
The Cuban Missile Crisishappened to Khrushchev's
detriment.
I think the Politburo lost faithKhrushchev, who was taken out of
power in 1964 as a direct resultof that reckless gambit.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (24:33):
You mentioned one of President
Kennedy's great accomplishments,which was the Signing of the
limited test ban treaty in 63.
So can you tell us a bit aboutwhat that treaty accomplished
and why did the Soviets agree tosign it?
Was it part of this newperception of Kennedy?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (24:50):
Yeah, I think there was that and I think
there was the view among worldleaders that we could have a
nuclear disaster or a nuclearaccident, which could happen as
we were testing nuclearweaponry.
You have to give John F.
Kennedy credit for the militaryvictory that was the Cuban
Missile Crisis outcome, and thenusing that victory and that
(25:13):
prestige that he got in the wakeof the crisis.
to do something to peacefulends.
And that was the nuclear testban treaty, which was vital in
ensuring that there wouldn't bethese reckless tests of, of
nuclear weapons that could beextraordinarily dangerous.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (25:31):
Now I'm going to ask you a question
next mark up to grove.
And it's really an unfairquestion to you, given your
unique position in Austin rightnow.
But could you describe therelationship of JFK and Bobby
Kennedy with the vice president,Lyndon Johnson?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:45):
Yeah.
And, and this question getsasked a lot
alan-lowe---american-potus (25:48):
Yes.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:49):
you can
alan-lowe---american-potu (25:49):
Yeah,
mku_1_08-29-2024_14 (25:49):
appreciate, and
alan-lowe---american-potu (25:50):
sure.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:50):
it.
I think you're right.
We, we talked about this lasttime as it related to LBJ when
he was the subject of ourconversation.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (25:57):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:57):
There were different Kennedy's.
And they had differentrelationships.
Lyndon Johnson,
alan-lowe---american-potu (26:02):
Okay.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (26:02):
you know, there was no monolithic
view of Lyndon Johnson and wecan start with Bobby Kennedy,
which was the worst There wasgreat antipathy between both a
mutual contempt They hated eachother and whatever ill feelings
one had it was more than matchedby the other They despised each
(26:22):
other And there are many, many,many reasons for that.
I'll happily jump into them ifyou'd like, but I would say he's
the outlier in the Kennedyfamily.
John F.
Kennedy had perhaps begrudgingrespect for Lyndon Johnson, and
that respect was returned inkind when, Lyndon Johnson saw
(26:43):
John Kennedy mature and evolveinto the presidency and become
what Lyndon Johnson described asa great public hero.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (26:51):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (26:52):
But it also bears mentioning that when
John Kennedy was, in the Senate.
really a back bench in theSenate.
Lyndon Johnson was the allpowerful Senate minority and
then majority leader, perhapsthe most powerful majority
leader in the history of the U.
S.
Senate.
So every time Kennedy needed toget something done for his
(27:13):
constituents, he had to go hatin hand to Lyndon Johnson, who
got it done for him.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (27:18):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (27:19):
was, there was respect between the
two of them.
And I think a lot of thisKennedy, LBJ stuff gets a little
blown out of proportion,particularly as it relates to
LBJ accepting the number twospot on the 1960 ticket.
alan-lowe---american-potus (27:33):
Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (27:36):
though, Alan, that Joe Kennedy, the
Kennedy patriarch, the father ofJack and Bobby Kennedy had a
huge regard for Lyndon Johnson.
Joe Kennedy was a creature ofpower himself, albeit not
political power, but, butunderstood the way power worked
and saw Lyndon Johnson as aparagon of power.
So we mentioned John F.
(27:57):
Kennedy in 1956, gainingnational prominence at the
Democratic National Conventionwhen he was a contender to be
the vice presidential nominee.
But his father advised him,look, I would not take that
number two spot.
on the ticket for anybody exceptfor Lyndon Johnson.
If Lyndon Johnson is the partynominee, then you should join
(28:19):
the ticket, but otherwise Idon't think you should join it.
that says a lot about his viewof LBJ.
alan-lowe---american-potus (28:26):
Now, of course, we know an issue that
took LBJ down later was thewhole issue of Vietnam.
And in the arena of unfairquestions, I have one more for
you.
And that is, the eternalquestion of JFK's next moves in
Vietnam, if the assassinationhad not occurred, what, can you
just remind us what actions JFKdid take in Vietnam?
Um, And then from your research,what do you think the next steps
(28:47):
may have been?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (28:48):
So Eisenhower had started in
Vietnam, he had sent militaryadvisors into the region,
essentially that's just troopshelping to train military
forces.
And John F.
Kennedy escalated the number ofthose troops, not nearly to the
degree that Lyndon Johnson wouldduring the course of his
presidency, not even remotely.
(29:09):
But you could see that the warin Vietnam was a burgeoning
crisis.
In fact, going back to thattransition meeting between, John
F.
Kennedy and Dwight Eisenhower,that was a subject that was on
the table because that was areally hot issue at the time.
will tell you that.
Two months before Kennedy'sassassination, Kennedy, through
(29:30):
a series of televisioninterviews, said that they had
to fight in Vietnam.
We had to.
It was a vital battle in theCold War.
We needed to fend off thecommunist insurgency in Vietnam.
he sort of doubled down on thatbefore his assassination.
Uh, there is no evidence,despite Kennedy acolytes pushing
(29:53):
this story that John F.
Kennedy would have pulled out ofVietnam.
There was a story, that waspurveyed when Bobby Kennedy was
trying for the nomination of theDemocratic Party in 1968.
There was sort of thisrevisionism as it related to
John F.
Kennedy's stance on Vietnam, uh,and Kennedy acolytes put forth
this notion that, uh, Kennedywas going to get reelected in
(30:16):
1964 and then pull out ofVietnam.
There is not one shred ofevidence that's not anecdotal
that suggests that that wasgoing to be the course of action
that he took.
So that, that is.
You know just legend as far asI'm concerned myth.
But I think you can infer fromjfk's prudence he negotiated a
(30:39):
settlement in laos as opposed tofighting a war he chose not to
engage with berlin when they putup the The berlin wall in 1961
shortly into his presidency.
There are a number of things thecuban missile crisis he rejected
the advice of his militaryadvisors to take out uh, missile
(30:59):
installations in Cuba throughsome aerial assaults.
He, didn't want to do any ofthose things.
He did not want to engagemilitarily if he didn't have to.
It could go back to his days inWorld War II, where he saw the
hell that war was.
So my guess is, Alan, that hemight've taken a different
course, but there is no evidenceto suggest that he was going to
(31:23):
do so before he wasassassinated.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (31:25):
And that's fascinating mark You do
hear so much of that anecdotallythat of course jfk would have
would have changed the wholeHistory of vietnam, but there as
you said, there's no shred ofevidence that that indeed would
have been the case Fascinatingone of the many fascinating
things about your book, sirLearning more about this amazing
president.
So, uh, sadly we all know thatJFK was assassinated November
(31:47):
22nd, 1963 in Dallas, Texas.
Why were he and Mrs.
Kennedy in Texas in the firstplace?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (31:54):
I'll tell you that it boils down to
money.
surprise.
alan-lowe---american-po (31:59):
There's a little bit of money in Texas.
Yes, sir.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (32:01):
lot of money in Texas.
And this is at a time when therewasn't as much money in
political campaigns, but moneyhas always been the oil of
politics, right?
And was promised by JohnConnolly, the governor of Texas
who was in, That that limousinewith Kennedy when he was shot
that if he came to Texas Hecould raise a million dollars
(32:22):
for the re election war chest in1964 And there was a big
fundraiser planned here inaustin for the evening of
november 22nd, the day thatkennedy was assassinated so
there was a series of citiesthat the Kennedys either visited
or were planning to visit, theywere Houston San Antonio, Fort
(32:47):
Worth, Dallas, and then theywere to come to Austin.
it spoke volumes that JackieKennedy accompanied Her husband,
first of all, presidents didn'ttravel as much in those days and
Jackie Kennedy wasn't around theWhite House much, let alone on
the travel circuit with thepresident.
She was very often either inCape Cod or.
(33:09):
Or in the Virginia countrysideout of the glare of the white
house spotlight.
So the fact that she was withher husband attested to how
important politically this wasto John F.
Kennedy.
And it bears mentioning too,Kennedy won the presidency in a
squeaker.
of an election in 1960 by twotenths of a percentage point in
(33:33):
the popular vote.
But it came down to Illinois andTexas.
LBJ being on the ticket helpedto carry Texas.
But since Kennedy was taking amore active stance on civil
rights.
By 1963, he was losingpopularity, his approval.
Ratings were descending rapidlyin Texas, so it became a very
(33:56):
important political stop aswell.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (33:59):
If our listeners have not been to
the Sixth Floor Museum inDallas, I encourage you to go.
Really, um, tasteful explanationof that horrible day in our
history.
And just, uh, really well donein terms of how that tragedy is
presented.
So, thank you.
Final question for you, Mark,you know, this is again
something that historians doevery now and then they, they
(34:21):
rank the presidents and JFK is ahard one to rank, but where
would you put him in terms ofhis fellow presidents?
And what do you believe hisenduring legacies are today?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (34:33):
I think he probably belongs in the top
10, of all of our presidents.
So in the top quarter of, of allpresidents, not quite in the
presidential pantheon that isreserved for Lincoln and
Washington and FDR, TR, but in atier below in the near great.
Tier.
I think Lyndon Johnson probablybelongs there too.
(34:56):
I thought very carefully in mybook about how you would
encapsulate his legacy.
So the last paragraph of thebook reads, while he is
remembered more for what hestood for than what he actually
achieved, his example hasendured.
Beyond the Camelot facade andmight have bins, Kennedy, the
man in all his strengths anddefects.
(35:18):
Virtues and Vices shows us whatis possible in leadership,
offering us not an unrealistic,unattainable ideal, but an
earthly standard from severalgenerations past.
Throughout the course of hisrestless, abridged reign in the
White House, he dealt with thepressures of the office and the
momentous decisions before him,standing on feet of clay at
(35:40):
times, showing flashes ofgreatness at others.
But all he did indelibly, honorand grace, edging out
recklessness and abandon,calling forth the best in all of
us.
And I think that to meencapsulates why his legacy has
endured for as long as it has,Alan.
(36:00):
And part of that goes back tosomething we didn't talk about,
but which is so much part of theenduring Kennedy legacy, which
is the great rhetoric, thesoaring rhetoric throughout the
course of his presidency,beginning with His inauguration
speech, perhaps the most famousinaugural speech in the course
of history in which he, ofcourse, said that famous line,
(36:22):
ask not what your country coulddo, asks what you could do for
your country.
alan-lowe---american-potus (36:28):
then it's been, I'm Berliner.
We all know that.
I mean, just amazing rhetoricthat he had that.
that inspired not just thenation, but the world.
And.
That as a young boy, I waslearning growing up.
And, in terms of his ongoinglegacy and setting that, that
standard, your guy LBJ took somany of those and made them
reality.
(36:48):
So you talk about civil rights,my goodness, you know, LBJ took
that next giant several steps interms of moving our nation
forward with a great society.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (36:57):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
John F.
Kennedy, I think, inspired us,and go back to that, you know,
ask not quote, he inspired us toreach beyond ourselves.
And I think when LBJ takes overafter Kennedy's assassination,
he exploits that, the faith thatwe have in government, which was
at an all time high in 1964 of72%, 72 percent of Americans is.
(37:20):
Believed in their government andLBJ takes advantage of that to
roll out the laws of the GreatSociety, some of which came from
Kennedy, not much, most of whichcame from his own imagination
after having seen what FranklinRoosevelt did with the New Deal
during the course of the GreatDepression.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1_ (37:39):
I see.
Well, well, tell me about theLBJ foundation.
What are you doing now?
What are your plans for thefuture?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (37:45):
Well, you know, Alan, that
presidential foundations for thepresidential libraries that are
under the auspices of theNational Archives are partners
in these endeavors.
These are public privatepartners.
The public side is, of course,the National Archives, and the
private side are the foundationsthat support these operations.
So we're doing a whole lot ofstuff.
We had President Biden here lastmonth, to commemorate the 60th
(38:07):
anniversary of the Civil RightsAct in which he talked about.
far as I'm concerned, muchneeded, Supreme Court reform.
Uh, we've got, Gretchen Whitmerand Nancy Pelosi, Doris Kearns
Goodwin, Conan O'Brien.
We've got a slate of folkscoming in the fall that we're
excited about.
And we have a brand new exhibitgoing in on Vietnam.
So some great things coming upat the LBJ Library.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (38:29):
An amazing place.
And what about you, Mark?
I know, you always seem to beworking on that next book.
What's next for you?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (38:36):
Alan, I'm doing a book called Make
your mark lessons in characterfrom seven presidents.
I've had the great honor ofinterviewing and getting to know
presidents.
And are, the presence fromGerald Ford through Barack
Obama.
And I assign them a charactertrait that I think underlies.
(38:58):
legacies.
So as a, for instance, forGerald Ford, it's doing what's
right.
And that goes back to the pardonthat is at the center of his
legacy.
Uh, the pardon of Richard Nixonin an effort to heal the country
after the divisions and thestain of war.
Watergate, which led to theresignation of Richard Nixon and
(39:18):
Barack Obama.
It's grace, the grace that heembodied as the first black
president in the face of veryoften just obvious, bigotry and
racial judgment.
So, I'm excited about that.
That'll be out, in the, thespring of next year and
available on Amazon and finebook stores everywhere.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (39:38):
And you know, of course, about
podcasts, you'll have to come onto talk about that book, Mark.
Well, that's awesome, Mark.
I so much as always for joiningPotus.
It's been fun and enlighteningas always.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (39:56):
It's a great podcast, Alan.
Thanks so much.
Look forward to the next time.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (39:59):
So I encourage all of our listeners
to check out Incomparable Grace,JFK and the Presidency.
Until next time, this is AlanLowe.
Thanks to all of you forlistening and for supporting
American POTUS.
Welcome to American POTUS.
(00:01):
I'm your host, Alan Lowe.
You know, I'm so proud of whatAmerican POTUS has been able to
accomplish these past few years.
And it's all thanks to you, ourlisteners.
Please make sure you check outAmericanPOTUS.
org and consider supporting ourwork.
We are a 501 C3 nonprofitdedicated to education and to
elevating a civil discussion ofthe presidency and the
(00:22):
presidents.
Our guest on this episode is avery good friend from many years
back, Mark Updegrove.
Mark currently serves as the CEOand president of the LBJ
Foundation in Austin, Texas, andas the presidential historian
for ABC News.
Prior to that, he served asdirector of the LBJ Presidential
Library Museum, as publisher ofNewsweek Magazine, and president
(00:44):
of Time Magazine's Canadianedition.
Mark has been widely published,and is the author of many great
books, including, among others,The last Republicans inside the
extraordinary relationshipbetween George H.
W.
Bush and George W.
Bush and the subject of his lastappearance on American POTUS.
Indomitable will LBJ in thepresidency.
(01:05):
Now today we're moving from thatindomitable will to Mark's book,
incomparable grace, JFK in thepresidency.
Mark, my friend, welcome back toAmerican POTUS.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (01:16):
Good to be with you, Alan.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (01:17):
You know, you start this book and
we're going to have a greatconversation today about this,
but I want to start where youstart this amazing meeting
between president Eisenhower andpresident elect Kennedy as he's
coming into office for apresidential junkie like me.
That was a an amazing scene tothink about being a fly in the
wall at that meeting.
What did they discuss?
(01:38):
How did they get along?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (01:40):
Well, not very well.
The amazing thing, Alan, is, asyou know from reading the book,
these guys had only met eachother once it was in World War
II.
And what makes that amazing isthe fact that John F.
Kennedy had sat in the U.
S.
Senate For eight years and priorto that in the house of
(02:00):
representatives for six yearsand he had never met dwight
eisenhower, so the entirety ofOf, Eisenhower's presidency, uh,
JFK was, a senator fromMassachusetts, and yet, they had
never met until they had met in,in Potsdam during the war, uh,
when JFK was discharged from theNavy, he became a reporter for
(02:24):
Hearst Newspapers, and they hadmet in Very, very briefly,
Eisenhower didn't remember it,of course, JFK did since he was
talking to the Supreme Commanderof the Allied Forces.
But here they come together inthe Oval Office, Eisenhower had
considered Nixon's defeat in the1960, election, a repudiation of
his presidency, so he was nonetoo pleased with the outcome.
(02:47):
He thought that Kennedy wasgoing to undo everything he did.
And so it, it started outsomewhat.
Tense, uh, it was a relativelybrief meeting.
The two did not think highly ofone another eisenhower called
JFK little boy blue and JFKcalled Eisenhower that old
asshole, which is naval termsfor the brass.
(03:10):
You know, when you looked atthe, those in command, they were
the, the assholes.
So it was, it was not a happyand harmonious relationship.
But they had a very civildiscussion about the state of
the world.
And interestingly, uh, after JFKemerged from the meeting and he
was going back out of the, thewhite house through the big
(03:30):
black iron gates, he said, Idon't know how he can stare in
the face of disaster with suchequanimity.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (03:39):
You know, I know during the campaign
there was much back and forthabout Missile gaps and all that
but i'm curious as to Why duringkennedy's whole time in the
house in the senate there hadn'tbeen more of a connection.
Is that political?
Reasons or, or others, what wasthe reason for that lack of
connection during that time?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (03:56):
I think it's the fact that Kennedy was
relatively disengaged.
He was a backbencher in theSenate.
He didn't do much in the Houseof Representatives, but he
emerged very strongly on theAmerican scene as a presidential
candidate in 1960, and to somedegree before that in 1956 at
the Democratic NationalConvention where, he vied for,
the second spot on the ticket asthe Democrats vice presidential
(04:20):
nominee, but he really didn't doa lot.
So.
It's not surprising,tremendously surprising if you
know Kennedy's record that heand Eisenhower didn't come
together.
But still you think about thisit's absolutely remarkable in
many respects.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (04:35):
It is, you know, I think we've had
this discussion before I grew upin a household.
I think I mentioned on AmericanPOTUS before I grew up in a
household that kind of reveredJFK.
I grew up hearing about JFKparticularly from my mother who
campaigned for him throughoutthe state of Kentucky.
And one thing we didn't know asmuch about back then, we've
learned in the ensuing years itwas about all the illnesses he
(04:57):
fought throughout his youth andduring the presidency.
I'm curious to hear yourthoughts as you research this
book about, the fact that hekept those secret from the
American people.
How did that affect youranalysis of him and of his
presidency?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (05:13):
The that he kept these things quiet
was a political necessity.
There's no way he could haverevealed to the American public
that he had Addison's diseaseand, a viable candidate for the
presidency of the United States.
He denied it steadfastly rightthrough convention in Los
Angeles that would anoint him asthe presidential nominee of the
party.
(05:33):
But that's what it was.
I mean, they simply could notdisclose that because it would
adversely affect his ability toascend to the presidency.
Uh, to become the, the standardbearer, but the illnesses that
he had throughout his life,which we're talking about a
moment ago, Alan, that informs.
JFK's life to a large extent.
(05:53):
He wanted to get everything hecould out of life, get
everything that was possible.
And I think that explains a lot.
He had this premonition that hewould die.
and he did
alan-lowe---american-po (06:05):
Mm-Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (06:06):
at his childhood illnesses where he
nearly escaped death and ofcourse his experience on pt109
in world war ii, I mean, this isa somebody who understood death
intimately not only because ofhis, calls with death, but
because so many in his familyhad died.
alan-lowe---american-po (06:25):
Mm-Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (06:25):
He saw the fragility of life.
I think that, again, thatinforms the way he led his life
and it informs the policies thathe advocated as President of the
United States.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (06:37):
You know, one of the amazing scenes
from American political historythat always harken back to when
I hear about JFK's illnesses, Idunno if he was in the house or
the Senate where he was so ill.
And, uh, the scene was RichardNixon visiting him in the
hospital room and, and weeping,if I remember correctly, or
being very distraught over thethe state of his friend, JFK.
And, of course, we know latertheir, their tremendous rivalry.
(07:00):
So JFK, when he ascends to thepresidency, chooses Bobby, his
brother, to be attorney general.
Was that as controversial thenas it probably would be now?
And why did he make that choice?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (07:15):
Was it as controversial?
Yeah, it was controversial, butit quickly passed.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1_ (07:19):
I see.
When
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (07:23):
as much as any family that ever existed,
blood was thicker than water.
Uh, Joseph Kennedy told hisfamily this all the time, and
there was almost like thisculture within the Kennedy
family.
part of that had to do withthere being Irish aspiring at
the same time at a time whenIrish Catholics were
discriminated against roundly inAmerican society.
(07:45):
So part of it was that and, andthe fact that they aspired to
something so much greater.
But the Kennedys were thick asthieves, as my mother might've
said.
They were really clannish.
They were really close.
Bobby Kennedy and his brotherwere not particularly close for
a long time.
There was about eight years thatseparated the two.
(08:07):
And so they kind of grew up indifferent phases of the Kennedy
family.
you know, Kennedy proved himselfto his brother his brother's
first campaign for the House ofRepresentatives in 1946.
and he became almost like ahatchet man.
He outworked everybody on thestaff.
(08:28):
And not only proved himself tohis brother, but to the other
members of the family.
And he became instrumental toJohn F.
Kennedy's ascent through thepolitical ranks.
in, when he vied for a Senateseat in 1952, there was Bobby
running his campaign.
And of course, when JFK ran forthe presidency in 1960, Bobby
(08:49):
Kennedy was once again hismanager.
Bobby Kennedy would have walkedacross a broken glass through a
wall for his brother, and thatmattered a lot when you were as
ambitious as the Kennedy familywas in general and J.
F.
K.
Was specifically
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (09:08):
you look at those two men, were they
similar in their personalitiesor were they Maybe.
different in ways thatcomplement each other.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (09:17):
they were totally different, but they
were simpatico.
As you're alluding to, uh, in,in some respects, they rounded
each other out, but no, totallydifferent people.
Bobby was really, uh, sort of adour personality.
He worked hard.
But he didn't have the panachedidn't have the charisma.
He'd have the good looks and thecharm of his brother.
His brother sort of skatedthrough life, despite the, all
(09:38):
the adversity faced,particularly on the health
front.
He was a buoyant, he was.
He was witty he was charming andbeguiling.
His brother simply did not havethat, but what his brother did
have is a killer instinct.
And that certainly when you wereas politically ambitious as the
(09:58):
Kennedys were.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (10:00):
You mentioned the 46 campaign,
right?
Is that the right year?
The first campaign for thehouse.
Remember, uh, years ago, I'msure you met him, when I started
at the office of presidentiallibraries at the national
archives.
First went to the Kennedylibrary.
Dave powers was the curator thenat the library who have worked
on that campaign.
They became a close friend ofJFK there on.
And I knew Dave when he wasolder and let me sit in JFK's
(10:22):
rocking chair, which heshouldn't have done,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:23):
Oh, wow.
That's cool.
alan-lowe---american-potus (10:25):
but,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:25):
good.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (10:26):
uh,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:26):
Powers was his buddy from the Navy.
alan-lowe---american-potu (10:28):
Yeah,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:29):
course, uh, went to the White House
when, when Jack became presidentand they remained bosom buddies,
but man, the fact that you gotto sit in JFK's rocking
alan-lowe---american-potu (10:38):
yeah.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:38):
cool.
alan-lowe---american-potus (10:39):
Now, I no longer work for NARA, so
they can't fire me over that.
Uh, uh,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:43):
I am going to send them a memo, Alan.
alan-lowe---american-pot (10:45):
please do, please do.
I know Dave's book, Johnny, WeHardly Knew You,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (10:50):
I hardly
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (10:50):
in the Canada, is a very good book.
Not taking away, of course, fromIncomparable Grace.
So, um, Uh, so JFK gets inoffice and you really show this
very well, the many challengeshe had immediately.
I mean, this was not an easystart to his presidency.
And of course, chief among thosewas the disaster at the Bay of
(11:12):
Pigs.
Why in the world did he give thegreen light to that invasion,
looking back on it, of course,we have hindsight, but why in
the world did he think thatwould be successful?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (11:20):
Well, it goes back to your first
question, Alan, which is thattransition meeting between the
outgoing President DwightEisenhower and the incoming
President John F.
Kennedy.
Eisenhower had recommended heimplement that program, that
operation.
And, I think that JFK was,that's not to say that he would
have done that Eisenhower wouldhave done so under the same
(11:40):
circumstances, you might haveasked additional questions or
poked holes in order.
We don't know.
That's a counterfactual that wedon't know the answer, but he
did advocate this operation,generally speaking in that
meeting.
so John F.
Kennedy looked at it veryseriously when he became
president.
And we Ultimately, Green lit itto his detriment, and it was
(12:02):
detrimental not only because ofthe damage that it did on an
immediate term basis, butbecause the Russians were
watching John F.
Kennedy very carefully andNikita Khrushchev, his
counterpart, The premier of theSoviet Union saw Kennedy as
being callow, as beinginexperienced, out of his depths
(12:22):
in the presidency.
And this just reinforced thatimpression and emboldened
Khrushchev.
And of course, a year and a halflater, you get the Cuban Missile
Crisis, I think as a directconsequence the disaster that
was the Bay of Pigs.
alan-lowe---american-potus (12:36):
Now, I was curious, Mark, when I was
reading your book, I wasreminded, and tell me if I'm
wrong, that as the operation wasplanned, JFK cut back the number
of planes would not cuttingthose back have had any impact
or was it felt doomed from thestart?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (12:49):
I think more air cover would have
helped, Alan.
It would have helped mitigatethe disaster, but it would have
been a disaster nonetheless.
It
alan-lowe---american-po (12:57):
Mm-Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (12:57):
were a lot of assumptions that the CIA,
which had concocted this plan,had made that did not come to
fruition, among which was thatthe Cuban population rally
around this effort because theyhad been liberated and anything
but that they, they had falleninto line under the leadership
of Fidel Castro, who at thatpoint had firmly established
(13:20):
himself.
As the dictator for Cuba.
So there were a lot ofassumptions that were made that
were ill founded.
And I think JFK reluctantlygreenlit the operation and
again, did so to his politicaldetriment.
alan-lowe---american-po (13:34):
Mm-Hmm.
Let, let's step back to domesticpolicy for a minute.
And so many of these questions,mark, as I, I prepared them for
today.
You realize they're almost whatif questions, you know, if he,
if he had lived to serve out theterm, serve another term, what
would he have done?
Which I know is unfair to you,but, but we're looking at JFK
(13:54):
stance on civil rights in thetime he was in office.
What were his priorities thereand how did he respond to.
This horrific incidents that youdetail in Mississippi and
Alabama.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (14:05):
It's a mixed record.
So when JFK comes into office, Ithink the overriding, the
biggest crisis was around theCold War, which was, of course,
the dominant geopolitical issueof its time, the world was
bifurcated, either you're withSoviet Union or you're with the
United States of America.
And so we were enmeshed in this,this death struggle with the
(14:26):
USSR.
And so JFK's priority, waskeeping Cold War tensions at bay
and, trying to win hearts andminds in the battle with the
Soviet Union, around ideologicaldifferences.
so when the civil rightsactivists were exposing the very
worst of racial tyranny andoppression, the Kennedys took
(14:49):
exception to that.
They thought That they were, byexposing the nation to that,
they were also showing the worldthat we were not the superior
system.
And so they were trying to tampdown the efforts of those like,
Martin Luther King and JohnLewis and others who were on the
front lines.
Of the civil rights movement,trying to generate awareness
(15:10):
about these things.
So, so much so that when thefreedom riders that included
John Lewis were, desegregating,uh, bus lines down in the South
and the Southern United States.
Uh, you know, Kennedy wascalling them almost traitors for
doing that saying that hisbrother was about to go to
(15:31):
Europe to have a series ofmeetings, including a summit
with Nikita Khrushchev with mudon his shoes as a consequence of
them showing the worst Of thisracial oppression
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (15:45):
No, uh, years ago when I was
director at the Howard Bakercenter, John Siegenthaler was on
our board and John, formerlyNashville, Tennessean was then
with Bobby Kennedy and was sentdown with the freedom riders and
a beaten unconscious by theclan., so John, an amazing man,
uh, many stories and sadly he'spassed away now, but many
stories from those days.
With Bobby Kennedy and then withthe Freedom Riders.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (16:07):
left at the curb bloodied
alan-lowe---american-potus (16:10):
Yes,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (16:10):
to be dead I mean it is an astounding
story He was actually brutallybeaten and was working for the
federal government at the time.
That's how bold Racial, uhaggression was in the deep
south.
alan-lowe---american-potus (16:24):
John had that metal pole displayed
outside his office when he wentto his office in Nashville.
Our friend Bill Vanden Heuvel Ithink also worked for Bobby
Kennedy if I remember correctly.
So, let's step for a moment toJacqueline Kennedy.
How would you characterize theirrelationship during the
presidency?
(16:44):
We've all heard so many stories.
Yes.
Uh, about the relationshipduring the time of the
presidency, how would youcharacterize their relationship?
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (16:54):
we know all know about the philandering
of You of JFK, after they gotmarried in 1953.
I mean, he really led life stilllargely as a single man.
As, did his father and hisbrother, Ted, and to a lesser
extent, I think Bobby Kennedy.
But, uh, But, I think thatparticularly after the Cuban
(17:15):
Missile Crisis or during theCuban Missile Crisis, two became
exceptionally close.
insisted that she and herchildren go to the White House
despite JFK's advice not to doso, to leave, not to be near
Washington in the event thatthere was a nuclear exchange
(17:35):
with the Soviet Union.
And, and she said, if we'regoing to die we're going to die
together.
We're going to be all betogether.
And she was with him night andday throughout the bulk of those
13 crucial and excruciating daysin American history, the closest
that we have ever come nuclearHolocaust and perhaps the most
(17:58):
dangerous moment in the historyof the world.
alan-lowe---american-potus (18:00):
Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (18:02):
of what was at stake at that time, and I
think after that, uh, in 1963,they lost a child, their fourth
child, Jackie, gave birth toPatrick, their second son, who
died two days later.
And I think that deepened therelationship as well.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (18:23):
So let's turn from that
relationship and, also the neardeath of the world, at the Cuban
missile crisis to somethingloftier, but still part of the
cold war.
And that was the race to themoon.
My day job now, Mark, as youknow, is in Oak Ridge,
Tennessee, I head up theAmerican museum of science and
energy.
And we talk a lot about thespace race and space in general.
(18:47):
What do you think led Kennedy tokind of fully embrace getting to
the moon first?
In the face of some pushback,and you know this really well in
the book, pushback from NASA andothers,
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (18:56):
Well, you just said it.
It was the Cold War, right?
We look back very romanticallyat the, the space race and, look
at America pioneering space asbeing almost like Manifest
Destiny.
You know, the, this reflectingour adventurous spirit as a
people.
And certainly that was part ofit, but a minimal part of it.
(19:18):
Most of it drawn through fear.
1957 when the Russians launchedSputnik, the first spacecraft,
that sent tremors of fearthroughout politicians and
American citizens in general,about the Soviet's domination of
space.
And so our capabilities toexplore space evolved, it became
(19:43):
almost an inevitability that wewould try to land human beings
on the face of the moon.
And that became the space race.
And we wanted to show the worldour technological superiority.
so this is very much born outof, the, the Cold War and our
desire.
(20:04):
To show the world the best ofwhat we had technologically and
to ensure that the Soviets wouldnot dominate space, where they
could potentially launch aweapon and have a greater
advantage militarily.
alan-lowe---american-potu (20:18):
truly an amazing call to action that
many people I'm, I'm learningthought there was no way in heck
we were going to be able toaccomplish that, but accomplish
it.
We did, you know, me, Mark, Ihop around, I'm going to hop
back real quick to the Cubanmissile crisis as, as much as I
know, we want to get aroundthat, but, uh, you know, in, in
the ensuing years after themissile crisis, thank God was
(20:39):
resolved.
We've learned that PresidentKennedy agreed to withdraw
American missiles from Turkeyand I remember correctly from
Italy if the Soviets did thesame in Cuba.
So do you see the resolution ofthe missile crisis still as a
success for the President and Iguess for the U.
S.
or is it now a different picturenow that we've learned there was
(20:59):
a back and forth compromiseinvolved?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (21:02):
A huge success, Alan, because
ultimately.
The Soviet Union relented,
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (21:08):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (21:08):
we averted nuclear holocaust as I
mentioned earlier, but, but youmake a really good point.
What we didn't realize untilwell after the Cuban missile
crisis is it was not the otherside blinking.
It was a quid pro quo, and itwas a great deal for, I mean,
and let me talk about the quidpro quo for a second.
(21:29):
Uh, just as The Soviet Union wasessentially putting nuclear
weaponry in the WesternHemisphere, which changed the
dynamic of the Cold War.
We had put missiles in Europe,and as you pointed out, in
Turkey and in Italy, which issort of the backyard of the
Soviet Union.
So they were really close.
(21:49):
It happened to be that they wereoutdated, We were going to pull
those missiles anyway, theSoviet Union didn't know that
and they didn't know how potentthose those missiles were.
So it was a great deal that weultimately struck, but it was
not a matter of us.
Laying down the gauntlet and theSoviet Union backing down, it
(22:11):
was a back channel negotiationthat resulted in both of us
pulling nuclear weapons from,places that were very close to
the homelands.
of the Soviet Union and, uh, theUnited States of America.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (22:25):
And going back to what you said
earlier, it was still a veryaudacious move by Khrushchev.
It was based, you believe, onhis perception of weakness in
Kennedy to go ahead and putthese missiles there in Cuba.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (22:37):
There's no question about it.
I mean, the Soviet Union didn'tdo anything even remotely like
that during the Eisenhoweryears.
They had high regard forEisenhower, and what he had done
in World War II, and I thinkthere was a little bit of fear
there.
And they saw this young, callowleader who was, as I mentioned
(22:57):
earlier, not up to the task ofbeing president of the United
States.
And, we might mention, Alan,that Nikita Khrushchev had an
opportunity to size up Kennedyin what was a disastrous summit
in Vienna in 1961, just a fewmonths into JFK's presidency.
(23:17):
And after the Bay of Pigsdisaster that we spoke about
earlier.
So he's looking at this youngguy, the youngest president,,
elect in the history of theUnited States.
And he's thinking I, I've got itall over this kid.
And he took advantage of that bymaking that stand in Cuba and
John F.
Kennedy realized if I don't takea stand myself, if we don't beat
(23:39):
this back, this threat, Thenwe're sunk and that it'll just
further embolden the sovietunion And so it ended up
working.
Well, and I should mention atthe conclusion of the cuban
missile crisis Kennedy who hadhad a black eye after the Bay of
Pigs fiasco stood on stage nonparole.
(23:59):
I mean, he was the leader in theworld, the, the dominant leader
in the world.
There was a prestige that heemanated that no leader could
even closely approximate.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (24:11):
Did that affect the Soviet view of
him?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (24:13):
Yeah, I think Khrushchev gained respect
for Kennedy, but we shouldmention that.
The Cuban Missile Crisishappened to Khrushchev's
detriment.
I think the Politburo lost faithKhrushchev, who was taken out of
power in 1964 as a direct resultof that reckless gambit.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (24:33):
You mentioned one of President
Kennedy's great accomplishments,which was the Signing of the
limited test ban treaty in 63.
So can you tell us a bit aboutwhat that treaty accomplished
and why did the Soviets agree tosign it?
Was it part of this newperception of Kennedy?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (24:50):
Yeah, I think there was that and I think
there was the view among worldleaders that we could have a
nuclear disaster or a nuclearaccident, which could happen as
we were testing nuclearweaponry.
You have to give John F.
Kennedy credit for the militaryvictory that was the Cuban
Missile Crisis outcome, and thenusing that victory and that
(25:13):
prestige that he got in the wakeof the crisis.
to do something to peacefulends.
And that was the nuclear testban treaty, which was vital in
ensuring that there wouldn't bethese reckless tests of, of
nuclear weapons that could beextraordinarily dangerous.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (25:31):
Now I'm going to ask you a question
next mark up to grove.
And it's really an unfairquestion to you, given your
unique position in Austin rightnow.
But could you describe therelationship of JFK and Bobby
Kennedy with the vice president,Lyndon Johnson?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:45):
Yeah.
And, and this question getsasked a lot
alan-lowe---american-potus (25:48):
Yes.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:49):
you can
alan-lowe---american-potu (25:49):
Yeah,
mku_1_08-29-2024_14 (25:49):
appreciate, and
alan-lowe---american-potu (25:50):
sure.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:50):
it.
I think you're right.
We, we talked about this lasttime as it related to LBJ when
he was the subject of ourconversation.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (25:57):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (25:57):
There were different Kennedy's.
And they had differentrelationships.
Lyndon Johnson,
alan-lowe---american-potu (26:02):
Okay.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (26:02):
you know, there was no monolithic
view of Lyndon Johnson and wecan start with Bobby Kennedy,
which was the worst There wasgreat antipathy between both a
mutual contempt They hated eachother and whatever ill feelings
one had it was more than matchedby the other They despised each
(26:22):
other And there are many, many,many reasons for that.
I'll happily jump into them ifyou'd like, but I would say he's
the outlier in the Kennedyfamily.
John F.
Kennedy had perhaps begrudgingrespect for Lyndon Johnson, and
that respect was returned inkind when, Lyndon Johnson saw
(26:43):
John Kennedy mature and evolveinto the presidency and become
what Lyndon Johnson described asa great public hero.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (26:51):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (26:52):
But it also bears mentioning that when
John Kennedy was, in the Senate.
really a back bench in theSenate.
Lyndon Johnson was the allpowerful Senate minority and
then majority leader, perhapsthe most powerful majority
leader in the history of the U.
S.
Senate.
So every time Kennedy needed toget something done for his
(27:13):
constituents, he had to go hatin hand to Lyndon Johnson, who
got it done for him.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (27:18):
Mm hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (27:19):
was, there was respect between the
two of them.
And I think a lot of thisKennedy, LBJ stuff gets a little
blown out of proportion,particularly as it relates to
LBJ accepting the number twospot on the 1960 ticket.
alan-lowe---american-potus (27:33):
Hmm.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (27:36):
though, Alan, that Joe Kennedy, the
Kennedy patriarch, the father ofJack and Bobby Kennedy had a
huge regard for Lyndon Johnson.
Joe Kennedy was a creature ofpower himself, albeit not
political power, but, butunderstood the way power worked
and saw Lyndon Johnson as aparagon of power.
So we mentioned John F.
(27:57):
Kennedy in 1956, gainingnational prominence at the
Democratic National Conventionwhen he was a contender to be
the vice presidential nominee.
But his father advised him,look, I would not take that
number two spot.
on the ticket for anybody exceptfor Lyndon Johnson.
If Lyndon Johnson is the partynominee, then you should join
(28:19):
the ticket, but otherwise Idon't think you should join it.
that says a lot about his viewof LBJ.
alan-lowe---american-potus (28:26):
Now, of course, we know an issue that
took LBJ down later was thewhole issue of Vietnam.
And in the arena of unfairquestions, I have one more for
you.
And that is, the eternalquestion of JFK's next moves in
Vietnam, if the assassinationhad not occurred, what, can you
just remind us what actions JFKdid take in Vietnam?
Um, And then from your research,what do you think the next steps
(28:47):
may have been?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (28:48):
So Eisenhower had started in
Vietnam, he had sent militaryadvisors into the region,
essentially that's just troopshelping to train military
forces.
And John F.
Kennedy escalated the number ofthose troops, not nearly to the
degree that Lyndon Johnson wouldduring the course of his
presidency, not even remotely.
(29:09):
But you could see that the warin Vietnam was a burgeoning
crisis.
In fact, going back to thattransition meeting between, John
F.
Kennedy and Dwight Eisenhower,that was a subject that was on
the table because that was areally hot issue at the time.
will tell you that.
Two months before Kennedy'sassassination, Kennedy, through
(29:30):
a series of televisioninterviews, said that they had
to fight in Vietnam.
We had to.
It was a vital battle in theCold War.
We needed to fend off thecommunist insurgency in Vietnam.
he sort of doubled down on thatbefore his assassination.
Uh, there is no evidence,despite Kennedy acolytes pushing
(29:53):
this story that John F.
Kennedy would have pulled out ofVietnam.
There was a story, that waspurveyed when Bobby Kennedy was
trying for the nomination of theDemocratic Party in 1968.
There was sort of thisrevisionism as it related to
John F.
Kennedy's stance on Vietnam, uh,and Kennedy acolytes put forth
this notion that, uh, Kennedywas going to get reelected in
(30:16):
1964 and then pull out ofVietnam.
There is not one shred ofevidence that's not anecdotal
that suggests that that wasgoing to be the course of action
that he took.
So that, that is.
You know just legend as far asI'm concerned myth.
But I think you can infer fromjfk's prudence he negotiated a
(30:39):
settlement in laos as opposed tofighting a war he chose not to
engage with berlin when they putup the The berlin wall in 1961
shortly into his presidency.
There are a number of things thecuban missile crisis he rejected
the advice of his militaryadvisors to take out uh, missile
(30:59):
installations in Cuba throughsome aerial assaults.
He, didn't want to do any ofthose things.
He did not want to engagemilitarily if he didn't have to.
It could go back to his days inWorld War II, where he saw the
hell that war was.
So my guess is, Alan, that hemight've taken a different
course, but there is no evidenceto suggest that he was going to
(31:23):
do so before he wasassassinated.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (31:25):
And that's fascinating mark You do
hear so much of that anecdotallythat of course jfk would have
would have changed the wholeHistory of vietnam, but there as
you said, there's no shred ofevidence that that indeed would
have been the case Fascinatingone of the many fascinating
things about your book, sirLearning more about this amazing
president.
So, uh, sadly we all know thatJFK was assassinated November
(31:47):
22nd, 1963 in Dallas, Texas.
Why were he and Mrs.
Kennedy in Texas in the firstplace?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (31:54):
I'll tell you that it boils down to
money.
surprise.
alan-lowe---american-po (31:59):
There's a little bit of money in Texas.
Yes, sir.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (32:01):
lot of money in Texas.
And this is at a time when therewasn't as much money in
political campaigns, but moneyhas always been the oil of
politics, right?
And was promised by JohnConnolly, the governor of Texas
who was in, That that limousinewith Kennedy when he was shot
that if he came to Texas Hecould raise a million dollars
(32:22):
for the re election war chest in1964 And there was a big
fundraiser planned here inaustin for the evening of
november 22nd, the day thatkennedy was assassinated so
there was a series of citiesthat the Kennedys either visited
or were planning to visit, theywere Houston San Antonio, Fort
(32:47):
Worth, Dallas, and then theywere to come to Austin.
it spoke volumes that JackieKennedy accompanied Her husband,
first of all, presidents didn'ttravel as much in those days and
Jackie Kennedy wasn't around theWhite House much, let alone on
the travel circuit with thepresident.
She was very often either inCape Cod or.
(33:09):
Or in the Virginia countrysideout of the glare of the white
house spotlight.
So the fact that she was withher husband attested to how
important politically this wasto John F.
Kennedy.
And it bears mentioning too,Kennedy won the presidency in a
squeaker.
of an election in 1960 by twotenths of a percentage point in
(33:33):
the popular vote.
But it came down to Illinois andTexas.
LBJ being on the ticket helpedto carry Texas.
But since Kennedy was taking amore active stance on civil
rights.
By 1963, he was losingpopularity, his approval.
Ratings were descending rapidlyin Texas, so it became a very
(33:56):
important political stop aswell.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (33:59):
If our listeners have not been to
the Sixth Floor Museum inDallas, I encourage you to go.
Really, um, tasteful explanationof that horrible day in our
history.
And just, uh, really well donein terms of how that tragedy is
presented.
So, thank you.
Final question for you, Mark,you know, this is again
something that historians doevery now and then they, they
(34:21):
rank the presidents and JFK is ahard one to rank, but where
would you put him in terms ofhis fellow presidents?
And what do you believe hisenduring legacies are today?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (34:33):
I think he probably belongs in the top
10, of all of our presidents.
So in the top quarter of, of allpresidents, not quite in the
presidential pantheon that isreserved for Lincoln and
Washington and FDR, TR, but in atier below in the near great.
Tier.
I think Lyndon Johnson probablybelongs there too.
(34:56):
I thought very carefully in mybook about how you would
encapsulate his legacy.
So the last paragraph of thebook reads, while he is
remembered more for what hestood for than what he actually
achieved, his example hasendured.
Beyond the Camelot facade andmight have bins, Kennedy, the
man in all his strengths anddefects.
(35:18):
Virtues and Vices shows us whatis possible in leadership,
offering us not an unrealistic,unattainable ideal, but an
earthly standard from severalgenerations past.
Throughout the course of hisrestless, abridged reign in the
White House, he dealt with thepressures of the office and the
momentous decisions before him,standing on feet of clay at
(35:40):
times, showing flashes ofgreatness at others.
But all he did indelibly, honorand grace, edging out
recklessness and abandon,calling forth the best in all of
us.
And I think that to meencapsulates why his legacy has
endured for as long as it has,Alan.
(36:00):
And part of that goes back tosomething we didn't talk about,
but which is so much part of theenduring Kennedy legacy, which
is the great rhetoric, thesoaring rhetoric throughout the
course of his presidency,beginning with His inauguration
speech, perhaps the most famousinaugural speech in the course
of history in which he, ofcourse, said that famous line,
(36:22):
ask not what your country coulddo, asks what you could do for
your country.
alan-lowe---american-potus (36:28):
then it's been, I'm Berliner.
We all know that.
I mean, just amazing rhetoricthat he had that.
that inspired not just thenation, but the world.
And.
That as a young boy, I waslearning growing up.
And, in terms of his ongoinglegacy and setting that, that
standard, your guy LBJ took somany of those and made them
reality.
(36:48):
So you talk about civil rights,my goodness, you know, LBJ took
that next giant several steps interms of moving our nation
forward with a great society.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (36:57):
Yeah, you're absolutely right.
John F.
Kennedy, I think, inspired us,and go back to that, you know,
ask not quote, he inspired us toreach beyond ourselves.
And I think when LBJ takes overafter Kennedy's assassination,
he exploits that, the faith thatwe have in government, which was
at an all time high in 1964 of72%, 72 percent of Americans is.
(37:20):
Believed in their government andLBJ takes advantage of that to
roll out the laws of the GreatSociety, some of which came from
Kennedy, not much, most of whichcame from his own imagination
after having seen what FranklinRoosevelt did with the New Deal
during the course of the GreatDepression.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1_ (37:39):
I see.
Well, well, tell me about theLBJ foundation.
What are you doing now?
What are your plans for thefuture?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (37:45):
Well, you know, Alan, that
presidential foundations for thepresidential libraries that are
under the auspices of theNational Archives are partners
in these endeavors.
These are public privatepartners.
The public side is, of course,the National Archives, and the
private side are the foundationsthat support these operations.
So we're doing a whole lot ofstuff.
We had President Biden here lastmonth, to commemorate the 60th
(38:07):
anniversary of the Civil RightsAct in which he talked about.
far as I'm concerned, muchneeded, Supreme Court reform.
Uh, we've got, Gretchen Whitmerand Nancy Pelosi, Doris Kearns
Goodwin, Conan O'Brien.
We've got a slate of folkscoming in the fall that we're
excited about.
And we have a brand new exhibitgoing in on Vietnam.
So some great things coming upat the LBJ Library.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (38:29):
An amazing place.
And what about you, Mark?
I know, you always seem to beworking on that next book.
What's next for you?
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (38:36):
Alan, I'm doing a book called Make
your mark lessons in characterfrom seven presidents.
I've had the great honor ofinterviewing and getting to know
presidents.
And are, the presence fromGerald Ford through Barack
Obama.
And I assign them a charactertrait that I think underlies.
(38:58):
legacies.
So as a, for instance, forGerald Ford, it's doing what's
right.
And that goes back to the pardonthat is at the center of his
legacy.
Uh, the pardon of Richard Nixonin an effort to heal the country
after the divisions and thestain of war.
Watergate, which led to theresignation of Richard Nixon and
(39:18):
Barack Obama.
It's grace, the grace that heembodied as the first black
president in the face of veryoften just obvious, bigotry and
racial judgment.
So, I'm excited about that.
That'll be out, in the, thespring of next year and
available on Amazon and finebook stores everywhere.
alan-lowe---american-potus_ (39:38):
And you know, of course, about
podcasts, you'll have to come onto talk about that book, Mark.
Well, that's awesome, Mark.
I so much as always for joiningPotus.
It's been fun and enlighteningas always.
mku_1_08-29-2024_143658 (39:56):
It's a great podcast, Alan.
Thanks so much.
Look forward to the next time.
alan-lowe---american-potus_1 (39:59):
So I encourage all of our listeners
to check out Incomparable Grace,JFK and the Presidency.
Until next time, this is AlanLowe.
Thanks to all of you forlistening and for supporting
American POTUS.
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